IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2009-01-11

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Saviqguys, any idea why maemo-mapper would suddenly stop liking route files created by GMapToGPX00:09
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wazdStskeeps: whoa)00:15
wazdSaviq: no(00:16
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GeneralAntilles<h4> is no different than <h3>00:25
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wazdStskeeps: - some logo concept00:43
wazdlooks bad but still)00:43
Stskeepsstill quite neat though :)00:43
b-man(random comment) - wow, in a preod of only 2 weeks it went from 70 F to 16 F with 7+ inches of snow :p00:44
GeneralAntilleswazd, put a Nokia shark swimming down below? :P00:44
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: or a nokia tire at the bottom of the sea..00:45
GeneralAntilleswazd, actually, it looks quite cool00:46
GeneralAntillesBut I've always preferred cleaner stuff.00:46
GeneralAntillesClean like:
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Stskeepslike his own page? ;)00:47
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, yes, that's why I'm referencing it. :P00:48
RST38hMore information on Palm Pre SDK is released00:48
wazdIf you're talking bout logo, I love it too)00:48
RST38hwazd: [la] Mer!00:48
GeneralAntillesThe small bubble at the bottom looks like an ®00:49
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Stskeepsmer, the ecosystem for fishy things..00:49
RST38hSts: Actually, this screen should show each available package update as a fish00:50
RST38hSts: The bigger update file is, the bigger should be the fish00:50
RST38hAnd if there are no updates, the ocean should be gradually getting darker each week00:51
wazdonline english dictionary said that "Mer" is somehow a "Mars rider" :D00:51
wazdRST38h: And become filled with junk)00:52
Stskeeps'the repeating structural unit of a polymer .often prefixed with a number indicating thenumber of units in the polymer mers'00:52
wazdlike sinked fregs'n'stuff)00:52
RST38hwazd: only if you have got broken dependencies or pacjages held back00:52
GeneralAntilleswazd, that's when Nokia releases an update. ;)00:52
wazdPalm sucked on industrial design again00:54
wazdAnd the main reason is fear00:54
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wazdYou've made a device that looks like a stone00:54
Stskeepswazd: i like the principle of the logo though, simplistic but straight to the point. Maybe 'mer' instead of 'MeR"?00:54
wazdMake it feel like a stone00:54
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Stskeepsor Mer00:54
RST38hwazd: So that you can kill with it!00:55
wazdSts, well, i thought of that, I said that it looks like crap))00:55
Stskeepswazd: hehe ;>00:55
wazdRST38h: Motorola has a phone with stone textured metal00:55
RST38hwazd: Didn't do Motorola any good.00:55
wazdRST38h: it was superawesome just to hold it00:56
Stskeepswazd: the splash screen could be the logo swimming across the screen..00:56
* RST38h seen it, didn't experience much awesomeness though00:56
wazdRST38h: well, Moto sucked at software too hard00:56
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* RST38h still wants his StarTrek datapad00:56
wazdWell, still it was much better than cheap glossy plasic00:57
RST38hScrew the stony textures, the shiny parts, the white glossy parts, just give me a plain datapad made of robust ugly plastic00:57
wazdRST38h: transparent plastic))00:58
RST38hwazd: yea, right, bluish transparent plastic and blue LEDs...00:58
RST38hwazd: The evil offspring of the original iMac00:58
wazdRST38h: I'm already in fear :)00:59
RST38hwazd: Fortunately, the bluish transparent stuff is mostly gone and the blue LEDs are dying out too01:00
RST38hEven the silvery crap is going away (BBK stopped using it recently)01:00
wazdSts: It's nice to have some visual concept to stand on01:01
wazdSts: You can play with some things01:02
wazdSts: Maemo logo was hard to produce01:02
wazdSts: Since nobody knows what the hell maemo is :)01:02
Stskeepshehe :)01:03
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Stskeepsand mer is a place you can drown and die.. :P01:03
wazdSts: And when the name is senseless, the logo is senseless too01:03
wazdSts: or you going there on holidays to relax with margarita :)01:04
wazdyou can't go to maemo on holidays obviously :)01:04
RST38hJust #define maemo as something useful and pleasant01:05
* Stskeeps ponders why on earth he has to add -Wl,-rpath=/usr/lib , shrugs, and goes back to building01:08
RST38hBTW, am I the only one having problems connecting to GMail with the latest Modest?01:08
RST38hHmm...and POP3 accounts too. It regularly pops out a dialog asking me to change the password01:09
wazdRST38h: in fact latest Modest was the only that I've paired with my gmail01:11
wazdRST38h: always got same pop-up earlier01:11
RST38hWhat do I do? I forces me to retype passwords01:13
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, somebody remember to bug X-Fade about fixing
Stskeepshmm? he put up the log01:14
Stskeepswell we're not even sure what it means .. ;>01:14
StskeepsMutually Ensured Reconstruction? ..01:15
GeneralAntillesWell, it sure aint an acronym. :P01:15
* Stskeeps wonders what hildon-desktop-multiscreen is01:17
wazdswitchable homescreen?)01:18
wazdlike virtual desktops01:18
qwerty12_N800something for tv out?01:18
Stskeepswazd: dunno, maybe. was from 2006 so :P01:19
Stskeepsi get way more intimate with some of the pieces than i would really like to.01:19
wazdWell, they planned to make multiple homescreens somewhere01:19
* qwerty12_N800 throws his theory out the window01:19
wazdOn one of the slides01:19
wazdDon't throw TV out, it's awesome))01:20
wazdthough I haven't got TV with HDMI01:21
Stskeeps~seen johnx01:21
infobotjohnx <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 17h 45m 24s ago, saying: 'infobot, poke rm_you'.01:21
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wazdinfobot, poke Stskeeps01:24
* infobot cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind Stskeeps, pokes Stskeeps repeatedly, hilarity ensues.01:24
GeneralAntillesIt'd be great if Hildon were in a state where you could just apt-get install hildon and everything would work.01:24
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: in which scenario?01:24
GeneralAntillesWell, after you've installed Ubuntu on your UMPC01:24
wazdGeneral: everything in a whole world :)01:24
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: technically you can already, but its not a good enough hildon on it :P01:25
wazdGeneral: just install hildon :)01:25
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GeneralAntillesIt wouldn't spaz out at a non-800x480 resolution01:25
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, remember the laptop screenshots with Hildon Desktop?01:25
GeneralAntillesBasically, I want that.01:25
Stskeepsyeah, i do01:25
RST38hA real fan01:26
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'm inclined to think it isn't impossible though. its a matter of adjusting layouts, i think01:26
GeneralAntillesOh, sure, it's perfectly possible.01:26
Stskeepsthat, or we get some of the hildon guys drunk and ask how it worked01:26
GeneralAntillesI just want it to be working and done with right now. :P01:26
RST38hDoesn't Hildon desktop scale well? It seems to survive rotation just fine01:26
GeneralAntillesEr, "fine"?01:26
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: my idea is to make Mer installable on UMPCs too :P01:26
RST38hGeneral: Well, no obvious visual glitches01:27
wazdWell, it hasn't crashed)01:27
wazdThat's fine)01:27
GeneralAntillesRST38h, statusbar folds over on itself, taskbar applets aren't placed correctly01:27
qwerty12_N800Menu is cut-off01:28
RST38hGeneral: But the desktop at least draws itself right01:28
* RST38h wouldn't expect that much01:28
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, if we have it to where it works like that, I think adoption rates will go up.01:28
GeneralAntillesWhich means more Hildon-friendly applications for us! :D01:28
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i have mer on a atom board at work.. :P01:28
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, you probably wouldn't need to get him drunk. the guy running it on the laptop doesn't work for nokia anymore01:30
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wazdqwerty: he was fired after this post?)01:32
qwerty12_N800wazd, no idea :D01:32
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i'm trying to find out where the initial theme is set in maemo, any clues?01:32
Stskeepser, not theme, background image01:32
qwerty12_N800something must read /usr/share/backgrounds/default.desktop, I'll try and figure it out01:35
Stskeepsyeah, hildon-desktop01:35
qwerty12_N800yep, so I guess just edit that :)01:36
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Stskeepsoh, so that's what purpose hildon-application-framework has O_o01:38
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wazd here's latest one wallpaper if you plan to implement it right now)01:41
Stskeepsi was -just- about to ask :)01:41
Stskeepsis it okay i merge it with the titan theme for now?01:42
wazdNO YOU CAN'T!!!1101:42
wazdofcourse it's ok)01:43
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wazd - 1920x1200 version for fanboys :D01:46
wazdoh, I see the glitch)01:46
wazdyep, look at the bottom)01:47
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qwerty12_N800the c thing?01:47
wazdit's "e" in fact)01:48
infobotqwerty12_N800 meant: the e thing?01:48
wazdhere's the right one01:48
GeneralAntillesLower the compression a bit.01:56
wazdit's not the compression I think01:58
wazdit's too much colors(01:58
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wazdGradient "ladders" are visible01:59
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lcukwazd, you should know to store something like that as png02:01
wazdlcuk: that's not hte format problem02:02
wazdlcuk: I have .psd opened and it shows the same02:02
wazdthats because of small-steped gradients on large space02:03
GrackleI think it's just the way photoshop rendered it.02:03
GrackleIt does not look like a dithering problem or a compression problem02:04
lcukok, where did the photoshop come from..02:04
GrackleWell, there are some artifacts in the very dark areas.02:04
GrackleAnd some ugly dithering but I think that's my screen and not the image.02:05
* Grackle is 3" away from his screen to see that, so :P02:05
lcukits showing gradient changes of 2 units at a time and when its changing both blue and green its a visible step, it just so happens that jpeg renders the UV frames at half resolution so a totally smooth original source would end up with the stepping by default02:06
pupnikgot fat, got angry, started hating myself02:06
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lcukif this image has been produced by an algo in photoshop thats one thing, but im betting the original source was a jpeg02:06
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jakemaheui'm lonely02:08
lcukwrite your own linux based cyber lovebot02:08
lcukyou could mod the robot puppy project and get your NIT to be its dreamy eyes02:08
jakemaheuyou scare me more each day02:09
lcuki aim to please :)02:09
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tehforumpingy pongy02:12
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jakemaheuwho's getting the windows 7 beta?02:12
jakemaheui am!02:12
jakemaheuplus i got a key02:12
wazdlcuk: original source was plain white file)02:13
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lcukam i right with the windows vista thing, have microsoft just given away vista?02:14
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lcuk7 ^02:14
wazdI've downloaded Win7 but haen't installed it yet02:14
tehforumit's taking ages to download02:14
wazdneed usb-flash to install on my HP mini02:14
tehforumi paused it at 40percent02:14
wazdUse torrents)02:14
tehforumwhat speed do you get?02:15
wazdI've downloaded 7000 for 40 mins or so02:15
tehforumand what speed is your internet connection02:15
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* lcuk wonders why02:15
wazdfrom russian tracker02:15
wazd16 mbps02:15
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tehforum8 times better than mine?02:15
tehforumi got 2mbps02:16
tehforumavg download speed 250kb/s02:16
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GAN800lcuk, if they don't they're gonna be left with XP as their primary OS for another 5 years.02:18
lcuknahhh its worse than that02:18
lcukpeople are getting new computers without microsoft on at all02:18
lcukthe "cool" thing for people to download and play with is linux02:19
Gracklehaha really? :|02:19
tehforumthats what i did02:19
GrackleMost people I know have used inux for a long time so I don't know of that trend.02:19
Gracklelinux too02:19
tehforumI heard about Ubuntu quite a bit02:20
tehforumbut was satisfied with xp02:20
lcuki come from a windows background, im still involved in it and still have to read publications and forums n stuff relating to it all02:20
GrackleI think it's a good thing. More users means better support from vendors, no matter who those users are.02:20
tehforumbut when i got my new computer, i decided to try ubuntu with a disc i requested a few months before02:20
lcukideal time isnt it :)02:21
jakemaheui've tried build 6801 and it was sweet, fast (comparable to xp), and beautiful02:22
GrackleIs networking less of a mess in Windows 7?02:23
GrackleLess of a mess than it is in Vista, that is.02:23
b-manfrom my sorces, yes :)02:23
jakemaheuwhat do you mean?02:23
GrackleI really despise Vista's network setup utilities. I have spent hours fucking with various people's vista laptops just so we could play games. :(02:24
GrackleI'm sure it's not so bad if you're used to it, but it really could be made a more intuitive process.02:24
jakemaheui see02:24
jakemaheui've used xp since it came out02:24
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b-manfrom my information, the networking diologs have ben re-designed and they're placing it on the taskbar for easy acsess. :p02:25
b-manyes, i know, not enough info :p02:26
lcukxp window manager still has raw speed and usability advantage over gnome or kde or others ive tried, but app wise i run OSS :)02:26
GrackleHah, well I remain optimistic.02:26
Gracklehaha usability :|02:26
GrackleI think you're just used to it, lcuk.02:26
lcukit does what i expect it to do02:26
lcukno, ive got ubuntu on my x4102:27
* qwerty12_N800 prefers explorer.exe to nautilus02:27
mavhcwindows GUI has usability?02:27
lcukthe way windows are handled and the task bar and stuff02:28
b-manthey look and function nicer :)02:28
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wazdoh, am I missing holywar?)02:28
GrackleI hope not, wazd02:28
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lcuknot really02:29
tehforumssomehow, my originally nickname is in use02:29
tehforumsi read about this being a "ghost"02:29
lcukghost? where?02:29
tehforumsin your toilet?02:29
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Grackletehforum, if you nick is registered you can /msg nickserv ghost nick password02:30
lcukno, thats a fart cloud02:30
Grackleand it will kick off your ghost02:30
wazdmer logo, v202:30
Grackle"ghost" being whoever is using your nick, some user or a lingering connection02:30
jakemaheuwaz: i like it02:31
jakemaheuwho made it?02:31
b-manwazd: nice02:31
wazdjakemaheu: Churcil)02:31
jakemaheui wish i had zombie art02:32
jakemaheuhe is dead, right?02:32
wazdhe said "not quiet" :)02:32
b-manhas timsmoff done eny work with logo designing yet?02:32
tehforumsghost tehforum02:33
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wazdplace / )02:33
wazdb0man: what exactly logo?02:33
tehforumsGHOST tehforum02:33
wazdwrong again02:33
wazdtehforums: place / in the beginning02:34
wazdlike /ghost02:34
tehforumsyeah i trid that as well02:34
b-mani ment has he tryed to design a logo for mer yet.02:34
wazdb-man, oh, didn't know02:34
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qwerty12_N800You can't ghost an unregistered nick.02:34
wazdwhat the heck with ghosts today02:35
wazdyesterday was fine02:35
tehforumsHow would I retrieve my nick back then?02:35
wazdno reconnections n stuff02:35
wazdwait a little02:35
wazdI had that shit too today)02:35
wazdI think letters should be a bit smaller02:36
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tehforumI got it back. :)02:39
wazdnow register it02:39
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wazdinfobot, are you here?)02:41
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wazdinfobot, poke infobot02:41
* infobot cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind infobot, pokes infobot repeatedly, hilarity ensues.02:41
tehforumany other irc command i should be aware of?02:42
wazdok, tomorrow plans are to make some Mer theme concepts02:44
jakemaheui wanna help02:44
jakemaheuis there a separate channel yet?\02:45
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jakemaheuyup, #mer02:45
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Stskeepsno, not really :P02:45
Stskeepsmost of the stuff goes in here02:45
wazdsts, hows the logo?02:46
Stskeepswazd: i might be a little odd but i dislike the | that goes all the way to the top in the m :P02:47
jakemaheumind if i give it a shot02:48
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jakemaheui found a nice gnu-licensed that i think i can do some work with02:49
jakemaheualso, gimp02:49
wazdjakemaheu: sure02:49
jakemaheui'll have em up on my server later02:50
wazdstskeeps: you wan't something like "fedora" has?)02:50
jakemaheuhow big? 800x480?02:50
Stskeepswazd: hmm?02:52
Stskeepsi just meant a font with the m not having the initial | that raises higher than the curve02:52
Stskeepssoft m02:53
wazdstskeeps: got it, like one's now)02:54
Stskeepsthat m02:55
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wazdbtw logo has pretty hard mistake now02:56
wazdif you'll look at .org closely, you'll see that it's overscaled verticaly02:57
wazd"O" shows it quite well, it's thinner on left and right and thicker on top and bottom02:58
wazdnot dramatical, but it's still bad thing from the designers pov :)02:59
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samdhey, how do i enable devel repos, i want to install abiword03:00
samdim in xchat in my n810 ; i love this03:00
infobotmethinks extras is
samdight ill take a look thanks03:01
infobotfrom memory, sleep is overrated, and a poor substitute for caffeine.03:02
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RaytrayDoes anyone know how often autosync on mcalendar syncs?03:09
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yigaltell Raytray do you like mcalendar?03:20
RaytrayYes I do. I'm intending to use it as a sort of agenda book for college.03:20
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yigalRaytray: I will have to try it03:21
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yigalnice it's pretty small03:21
samdhey, is there any way to see ppt in maemo?03:21
RaytrayThe only problem I have with it now is the hour difference between the google calendar and itself.03:21
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yigalRaytray: wow, that's pretty considerable :)03:22
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yigalif you say 2:15 google calendar gives 3:15?03:23
yigalsame timezone?03:23
RaytrayYup, it's a dst bug I think. It's on their bugtracker.03:23
yigalRaytray: that's unacceptable to me.  If I was using google calendar I wouldn't even consider this app., owell03:25
RaytrayWell I'm only using it to record homework and that sort of thing, I don't have a hard schedule to keep. Should be fixed sometime soon anyway.03:26
* Raytray shrugs.03:26
GeneralAntillesRaytray, find Khertan. :P03:27
RaytrayHe's probably asleep. :P03:27
RaytrayWhich is why I didn't bother highlighting. :D03:27
yigalI mean what's the use if you're trying to sync?  I guess it's of use for keeping a history of past event at google calendars?03:27
RaytrayAt least, he's in #france anyway.03:27
Raytrayyigal, well, to keep on mind what I have planned for the day. I could always add an hour in my head anyway.03:28
RaytrayI check my tablet when I wake up to read my agenda, note the weather, and check email.03:28
yigalRaytray: but gpe isn't quite good enough03:30
RaytrayDoes it have a desktop "widget" for it?03:30
yigalit has an applet?03:32
RaytraymCalendar does.03:32
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yigali'm too paranoid and have no use in trying to sync with google03:35
RaytrayWell if you're not going to sync with google anyway mcalendar should do fine?03:36
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yigalRaytray: I want to be able to sync with evolution, can I do this?03:36
RaytrayI do that through google calendar. I'm not exactly sure. Does gpe allow that?03:37
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yigalI haven't used my n800 for this purpose, but I'm interested in doing this, I've heard Conduit works for this purpose, in any event some day I'll look into it03:38
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RaytrayAh I see.03:38
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jakemaheuhey guys04:11
jakemaheui made a few splashes for mer04:11
jakemaheuit's lousy html so that i don't have to list them on here04:11
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jakemaheuwhat do you guys think?04:14
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wazdwhy so heavy images?04:20
wazd1.5 Mb, omg)04:20
* b-man thinks his ubuntu jaunty install is starting to die - first, keyboard stopped working, next gnome-pannel stopped working, then nautills stoped working... now all he gets is a wallpaper :p04:21
wazd - how did you do that so heavy?) .png can optimize that into 3 or 4 kbs04:22
wazd - I've just opened your file in PS and saved as PNG-24, it's 2kb04:27
wazdI think you did something very wrong with your GIMP settings04:28
wazddamn, wrong file04:29
wazd - here it is04:29
Raytrayjakemaheu, what is mer?04:32
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wazdRaytray: Something very special)04:35
RaytrayI see. Heh04:35
Raytrayb-man, is that all in one boot or constantly in that order? o.004:35
jakemaheuwazd: i didn't use compression04:36
jakemaheuwhat do you think though?04:36
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wazdjakemaheu: well, I think it's pretty "industrial" for "sea" thematics04:38
wazdsince "Mer" is "sea" in french :)04:38
jakemaheuit reminds me of a submarine; how deep we can explore04:38
jakemaheuinto the open-source sea04:38
jakemaheulol poetry04:39
wazdjakemaheu: whoa, interesting association :)04:39
wazdjakemaheu: try to make something smooth04:39
wazdjakemaheu: good)04:40
jakemaheuyou mean the letters?04:40
wazdjakemaheu: yep04:40
wazdI gtg to sleep some time)04:41
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limepihey there, I'm having trouble getting an apple bluetooth keyboard to pair with my n800--I just installed diablo05:12
limepiat first it gave me the error message "pairing failed device resources exceeded"05:12
limepibut after my reboot, it won't even let me get past the "searching" window05:13
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* deejoe realizes he hasn't tried his apple bt keybd since upgrading05:25
doc|homeis canola broken? not really updating its media library for audio files for me even though I've said to look at both cards05:25
deejoemine is an older one with more plastic.  you have one of the silvery ones with chiclet keys, limepi?05:25
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limepideejoe: yep05:30
limepiit worked with... chinook?05:30
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maclyI realize this may be a taboo question (or an unwanted one) and I apologize.  I've been looking around to get an N810 and the only reputable place I've seen to get it is amazon, but they keep raising the price (currently around $400)  Where should I be looking?05:42
limepihmm... perhaps the forums05:43
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GeneralAntilleslimepi, fora is probably more correct, but both usages are fairly common05:48
GeneralAntillesI find fora a bit stilted myself.05:48
GeneralAntillesmacly, the N810 is kinda close to EoL05:48
GeneralAntillesmacly, you can either wait for the next tablet around Summer (probably ~$500) which is going to be waaaay better, or maybe buy a used N810 now for cheap.05:49
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maclyGeneralAntilles, cool. I'm just not really into some of the features of the next gen maemo tyablet :\05:52
maclyI appreciate the input though05:53
GeneralAntillesmacly, er?05:53
GeneralAntillesWhat "features" could you not be into?05:53
GeneralAntilles2-3x the speed or accelerated 3D perhaps?05:53
maclyWWAN is one of them honestly05:53
GeneralAntillesYou don't need a contract05:53
GeneralAntillesJust ignore it.05:53
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't do anything if you don't use it.05:53
maclyI'll have to re-read the spec list...05:54
GeneralAntillesSome speculation based on recent code drops:
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maclyGeneralAntilles, I just remember something I had heard earlier had turned me off... I guess we'll see :)  I do appreciate the info though06:00
GeneralAntillesReally, the N810 is slow and basically EoL06:01
GeneralAntillesDon't expect continued software updates06:01
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maclyyeah. I'll probably end up digging my heels until the new one comes out... then impulse buy :) it's my usual MO :D06:01
macly(I'm a MBP pre-orderer for instance)06:02
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GeneralAntillesWhatever other detriments there may be, OMAP3 outweighs all of them.06:04
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TheFatal# apt-get update  ->  E: Falta el directorio de archivos /var/cache/apt/archives/partial.07:24
TheFatal# apt-get update  ->  E: Missing directory of files /var/cache/apt/archives/partial.07:26
bef0rduhm se borro? crealo07:27
AstralStmkdir it07:27
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AstralStheh, it's almost time to move all my system to sd (immc actually)07:28
AstralStbut first, I need a kernel with btrfs working and omapfb driver built against new kernel headers07:28
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AstralStany gotchas to look out for?07:36
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bef0rdno heh07:36
bef0rdI've only used external kernel for rotation support, is there any other available?07:39
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TheFatalI do not know other07:40
TheFatalCan i install Ubuntu mobile to a N81007:40
bef0rdthat's x8607:41
bef0rdunless you compile it07:41
TheFatalToo much work :P07:41
TheFatalAnd gnome mobile ??07:42
bef0rdwhat's that?07:42
TheFatalGnome desktop for mobile devices07:43
TheFatalMotorola is using it07:44
TheFatalOn new device07:44
bef0rdbut, maemo desktop is already using gnome stuff07:45
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TheFatalNot all07:47
GeneralAntillesNokia is involved in the GNOME Mobile initiative.07:47
TheFatalI saw than a new gnome mobile desktop exist07:47
TheFatalSorry, old new... So there is not exist another S.O. For N810 ??07:50
GeneralAntillesI'm familiar with DEs, but not SOs.07:52
bef0rdthere's debian, ubuntu, I read somebody is running gentoo .. but thery are all linux heh07:53
AFBN810xchat looks alot better with tabs on top07:55
limepiand with white-on-black text07:56
AstralStbef0rd: port minix to it ;P07:56
AstralStshouldn't be hard07:57
AstralStthere's definitely no Windows Mobile if you're after that07:57
limepianyone here know about pairing an apple bluetooth keyboard w/diablo07:57
limepiI just updated07:57
limepiand now it won't pair :(07:57
AstralStit should just work07:57
AstralStmaybe remove the device and readd it07:58
AFBN810white on black easier to read?07:58
limepiAFBN810: yep07:58
limepiAstralSt: oh, I've tried that countless times07:58
AstralStAFBN810: not on LCD07:58
AstralSton LCD, esp. transflective, black on white is better07:58
AstralSthigher contrast07:59
AstralSttechnical limitation - everyone should switch to OLED already ;)07:59
AFBN810yeah white on black is easier on tablet07:59
AstralStoh really?08:00
GeneralAntillesIt is for me.08:00
GeneralAntillesTransmission display08:00
AstralStI get huge evil reflections in sunlight08:00
AstralStmakes it totally unreadable08:00
AstralStactually, in any light08:00
GeneralAntillesYou need a nice screen protector08:00
AFBN810not sure about in sun light08:00
AstralStit's a transflective screen08:01
AstralStno amount of protection will help08:01
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AstralStit's designed to reflect some light08:01
AstralStalso, I can't get the right protector08:01
AstralStwhich ones are ok? (last one I tried, muddled the screen to hell)08:01
AFBN810I cut down a psp on since I'm to lasy to order ofline08:03
AstralStI tried one for PSP08:04
AstralStit muddled the screen a lot08:04
AstralStto the point of being hardly readable08:04
limepiI nicked my screen a little bit in the lower corner08:05
limepiis that something I can buff out with toothpaste08:05
AFBN810speaking of colors GA do I need to follow some kind of color pattern for moble theme of
GeneralAntillesAstralSt, the transflection reflects from behind the panel.08:06
AstralStGeneralAntilles: yes, so?08:06
GeneralAntillesAnyway, I don't do my reading in sunlight.08:06
AstralStit still leaves nice reflections08:07
GeneralAntilleslimepi, toothpaste will just score it.08:07
bef0rdAstralSt, I was checking, minix is only IA-32 :P there is a google summer of code project to port it to other architectures
AstralStsunlight? it reflects any light08:07
AstralStbef0rd: that's why I said you get to port it :)08:07
limepiGeneralAntilles: which would, if I understand correctly, make it worse?08:07
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bef0rdAstralSt, and the wikipedia entry says it supports a lot of platforms ... heh08:08
AstralStnot minix308:09
AstralStyou *still* get to port that one08:09
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* AFBN810 thinks about having to design something with standards08:20
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AstralStAFBN810: something? like, a gizmo?08:20
AFBN810a forums template08:21
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AFBN810Last one I picked colors now I have to follow rules08:21
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samdhi, is there any way to see powr point presentations on my  n810?09:08
AstralStgoogle docs maybe09:09
AstralStother than that, I don't think so09:09
AstralStconvert them to PDF somewhere else and you'll be good09:09
samdyea good point , pdf would be nice , thanks09:10
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wazdmorning all10:32
qwerty12It's annoying when you get used to running tar on every compressed file you find and you forget about gunzip & bunzip :)10:33
johnxheh. done that before10:34
johnxoften zcat or bzcat is more useful though10:34
qwerty12yeah :)10:34
wazd < brand new mer10:37
AstralStno UI? ;P10:37
AstralStjust-a-wallpaper OS?10:38
qwerty12The best kind10:38
johnxAstralSt, after lots of focus groups, we discovered that's all people really cared about10:38
wazdAstralSt: It's UI is so great that it's invisible!11 © Palm10:38
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Jaffawazd: Start-up screen? Nice.10:40
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Jaffa(wallpapers shouldn't have the logo as central, or prominent, IMHO)10:40
wazdJaffa: that's all in one)10:40
wazdJaffa: that's just a test :)10:40
wazdJaffa: wallpaper is without the logo10:41
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Jaffawazd: looks very professional10:46
johnxyes, looks very slick10:46
JaffaWallpaper could have some subtle (largeish) bubbles added10:47
wazdJaffa: good idea10:48
wazdI've remade all stuff from null - same dithering problem. avent got access to good desktop display, have to work on netbook, maybe that's because of screen color depth lack10:49
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wazdbtw, I have VIA C7 powered netbook, and still I can do 1920x1200 images pretty well so it's not as sluggish as it's described :)10:51
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JaffaNice. What model?10:52
wazdJaffa: HP Mini 213310:52
wazdJaffa: but still Atom is faster :)10:53
* Jaffa had an original Eeeeeeee; very cool, but didn't use it enough once my N810 arrived10:54
JaffaMy dell laptop is just so big & heavy tho'10:54
wazdEe 701 was celeron powered, good book :)10:55
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johnxwazd, liking the 2133 overall?10:57
wazdjohnx: yep, superawesome even after half-a-year using )10:58
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wazdjohnx: aluminium casing is more than adorable10:58
johnxgreat! that's what I like to hear. I'm lusting after a 2140 with a 6-cell battery, but might go for a mini 100010:58
wazdjohnx: better wait for top 2140, it's a killer device for sure10:59
johnxyeah, have to wait anyways from a purchasing perspective :)10:59
wazdjohnx: there's really nothing to compare with on the market10:59
johnxyeah, I got a chance to try most of the netbook keyboards side-by-side11:00
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johnxhp's the only one that didn't feel cramped. some combination of layout and the actual shape of the keys11:00
wazdjohnx: yep, I'm using it as my main PC since my desktop video gone to ardware heaven :)11:01
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wazdjohnx: for about 2 months11:01
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RST38hmoo all11:03
RST38hWTH is ?11:04
RST38hwazd,johnx: Just buy yourself a real subnotebook like Portege R-series and stop drooling over quasiPCs11:05
wazdRST38h: hello there)11:05
johnxRST38h, Soon as you throw me the difference in cash :P11:05
wazdRST38h: Actually I don't need that much power mobile11:05
RST38hjohnx: Make it work for you :)11:06
wazdRST38h: So I don't want to pay for stuff I'd never use :)11:06
RST38hwazd: netbooks are not very mobile - don't fit into a pocket, can't be used on the go11:06
RST38hwazd: but I actually use a subnote as a desktop replacement, so not paying anything extra11:06
johnxthough actually, depending on the portege's screen size/weight/keyboard I might be happier with the hp anyways11:06
wazdRST38h: for pocketable things I have n800, and I never used a notebook on the go, even the tablet one)11:07
roopeI think there is the pocket form factor and then there is the laptop form factor, but I'm not really convinced of the form factor in the middle.11:07
RST38hjohnx: Won't be - both screen and keyboard are physically larger and the weight is 1.25kg.11:07
roopetoo big to be pocketable, too small to be really used like a laptop.11:07
johnxso it's more expensive and less portable?11:07
AstralStwell, we need more foldable screens and keyboards11:07
AstralStoh, wait11:08
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AstralStwe don't have video out on n81011:08
RST38hwazd: Yep. But because netbooks aren't really mobile, why bother with them at all?11:08
AstralStI hope that this issue will be rectified in n9xx11:08
RST38hjohnx: It is as portable as any netbook11:08
wazdRST38h: mine is mobile :) I can take it to my country and work there a bit :)11:08
RST38hjohnx: More expensive, yes, but you get what you pay for11:08
AstralStwazd: that kind of mobility I have with my standard laptop11:08
RST38hwazd: I can do the same with any laptop really11:09
johnxRST38h, what if I don't need the part I'd be paying more for?11:09
AstralSt(no, not a 17" monster)11:09
RST38hjohnx: I do not believe you won't need a bigger screen, more comfortable keyboard, and more responsive CPU11:09
AstralStfor mobile work, n810 is almost excellent11:09
johnxRST38h, you haven't actually tried the hp mini keyboard, have you?11:10
RST38hjohnx: Even if you are a linux freak, the linux analog of "make world" is going to take much less time on a real computer11:10
AstralStn9xx with external foldable keyboard and screen would be even better11:10
johnxRST38h, I use a binary distro :P11:10
wazdRST38h: HP has 100% comfortable kb and pretty responsive CPU :)11:10
RST38hjohnx: No, but I know for sure that it is smaller i.e. less comfortable11:10
AstralStyeah, netbooks are a niche that doesn't exist really11:10
AstralStbut gullible people still buy them11:11
pupniknetbooks are still space/weight saving if you are carrying a bag (for e.g. with books and stuff)11:11
RST38hAstral: This niche is called "dirt cheap laptops"11:11
johnxRST38h, so, I've used the keyboard, you haven't, and you're telling me it's less comfortable?11:11
RST38hAstral: it exists all right11:11
pupnikagree with RST38h11:11
AstralStRST38h: can't just buy an older one? :P11:11
AstralStinstead of having an underpowered netbook?11:11
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RST38hAstral: Probably not, laptops do not live more than 2-3 years nowadays11:11
AstralStyes, they don't11:11
AstralStdue to battery11:11
wazdAstralSt: who told you it's underpowered?11:12
AstralStwazd: if it's a netbook, it certainly is11:12
RST38hjohnx: With keyboards, you can judge by physical size without trying11:12
RST38hjohnx: Given the same size, you would have to test them of course to know11:12
johnxRST38h, O_o11:12
wazdRST38h: actually you can't11:12
AstralStoh, yes you can11:12
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wazdRST38h: you can make 100% sized keyboard unusable11:12
RST38hwazd: you can, as long as you keep in mind that size isn't the only criterion11:13
johnxRST38h, I'm sorry to do this but I think the most correct expression would be "lolwut?"11:13
AstralStwazd: unless it's designed to be useless, no11:13
AstralStif it's a default design, then you can11:13
RST38hjohnx: Smaller keyboard BAD. Bigger keyboard GOOD. Understand? :)11:13
AstralSt(or close enough to one)11:13
wazdRST38h: wrong again11:13
AstralStRST38h: of course, unless it's too big11:13
aquatixRST38h: except that there can be bad big keyboards and excellent small ones11:13
AstralStyeah, of standard design?11:14
wazdRST38h: Optimus Maximus is very big keyboard11:14
johnxRST38h, I've tested it and it seems just fine for me. do you own some stock in Toshiba or something?11:14
wazdRST38h: And it sucks like a vacum on typing11:14
AstralStwe're talking about standard designs, not weird ones11:14
RST38haquatix: there can be. as a general rule though, bigger keyboard good.11:14
aquatixRST38h: of course11:14
aquatixas you have more room11:14
wazdAstralSt: what is standart design?11:14
wazdAstralSt: Mitsumi original?11:15
AstralStnormal rectangular or almost-rectangular qwerty11:15
RST38hwazd: I won't even discuss THAT to avoid Russian-specific politically incorrect humor.11:15
wazdAstralSt: typewrigter?11:15
AstralStlike, Chicony old Winkeyboard11:15
AstralStor that old IBM keyboards11:15
AstralStthat's the standard design11:15
RST38hjohnx: I don't really, but the Porteges are subnotebook I know well11:15
AstralStforgot how they look, eh?11:15
wazdAstral: what the heck is "rectangular qwerty"?)11:15
aquatixmitsumi original comes close too i think11:15
RST38hjohnx: You can probably go with other brands as well, as long as general specs are close11:16
johnxRST38h, WTF? The Portege starts at $1400. The HP I specced is $38011:16
AstralStwazd: non-broken non-curved qwerty keyboard11:16
RST38hjohnx: You get what you pay for.11:16
johnxRST38h, I need this for an ssh session and an xterm.11:16
johnxand a web browser, music player11:16
johnxmaybe some standard def video11:16
wazdAstralSt: well, Microsoft Ergo Kb is way cooler than original :)11:16
RST38hjohnx: Why do you need to spend extra $380 for that? Don't you already have a computer?11:16
johnxWhy in the F would I pay $1000 extras?11:16
AstralSt - like this one11:16
aquatixjohnx: sounds like a netbook is great for the job11:16
wazdAstralSt: every iser will tell you that :)11:17
AstralStexcept all the added keys11:17
AstralStwazd: yeah yeah11:17
johnxRST38h, it's in a micro atx case. doesn't really fit in my lap huh?11:17
AstralStexcept most of these suck :>11:17
aquatixjohnx: my girlfriend has the samsung nc10; excellent 10" netbook with great keyboard11:17
aquatixand great battery life too11:17
bef0rdwazd, nice logo/wallpaper11:17
RST38hjohnx: Why not dump it and just buy a real laptop for all purposes?11:17
wazdbef0rd: thanks)11:17
aquatixwazd: url?11:17
johnxRST38h, $1000! I've owned cars that cost less!11:17
aquatixjohnx: :)11:17
AstralStaquatix: well, so what's the best thing about that one?11:18
AstralStthat it can run apps? :P11:18
RST38hjohnx: Ah you cheapskate =)11:18
AstralStdefinitely not the price11:18
AstralStand it's not a netbook11:18
johnxRST38h, it's called priorities11:18
AstralStjust a subnotebook11:18
aquatixAstralSt: eh?11:18
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aquatixnc10 is a netbook11:18
AstralStprice, again?11:18
RST38hjohnx: Dunno, to me it is having more electronic junk in the house11:18
AstralStI have a real laptop that costs less11:18
mavhcit's only a netbook if it has an ssd, hdd based ones don't count11:18
AstralStand it does its job very well11:19
aquatixbut does that one do 7 to 8 hours straight on battery?11:19
RST38hjohnx: I would rather spend that $1000 and have a single portable machine to use11:19
aquatixand weigh 1.3kg?11:19
* Jaffa still has a proper netBook upstairs :-)11:19
wazdI don't get that argue :) What everybody tries to prove everyone?)11:19
AstralStaquatix: not, just 4h11:19
aquatixwazd: not sure either :)11:19
RST38hjohnx: All of my computers have paid for themselves multiple times11:19
AstralStand 2x the weight11:19
mavhcJaffa: apparently psion want to sue people, who knew they still existed11:19
AstralStaquatix: for portability, my n810 is good11:19
aquatixi was just saying that for johnx' needs, a netbook is just fine11:19
RST38hwazd: As always, that THEIRS is bigger/longer/harder11:20
aquatixAstralSt: i have an n810 and a 13" subnotebook and that's fine for me too11:20
* aquatix doesn't need a netbook11:20
AstralStwhy do you need a subnotebook if you have n810?11:20
wazdRST38h: Ah, ok :)11:20
aquatixbut i was just saying that they have their place11:20
AstralStnormal laptop is portable aplenty11:20
johnxRST38h, I've owned plenty of computers. This isn't my first time around the block. I appreciate the advice I suppose, I just wonder why you're so insistent...11:20
aquatixAstralSt: what part of "my girlfriend" didn't you get?11:20
AstralStah, right11:20
AstralStno logic11:20
RST38hjohnx: Not really insistent11:20
aquatix(heh, all of it ;)11:20
AstralStforgot about that part11:20
RST38hjohnx: Just fail to understand the logic11:20
wazdok, why netbooks are bad?)11:21
RST38hjohnx: If I were a cheapskate, I wouldn't buy a second computer at all11:21
RST38hjohnx: If I weren't a cheapskate, I wouldn't buy a netbook11:21
Jaffamavhc: They still sell netBook (Pro) stuff - but to big industrial/OEM customers; hence all the /. wailing of "wah, they stopped selling stuff ages ago". I wonder who got Acorn's "netPad" trademark (I think Psion had a portable, keyboardless device called the netPad, too)11:21
wazdthey ave standart keyboards, 8  hours of wi-fi, descent screens and adequate CPU HP11:21
RST38hjohnx: So, any point of view in the middle is lost to me :)11:21
wazdWhat's bad on them?)11:21
mavhcnetbooks are bad if you don't care about size because a full sized cheap laptop is the same price11:22
johnxRST38h, $1000 represents a different amount of money to different people...11:22
JaffaRST38h: Perhaps other people have different requirements and priorities to you?11:22
wazdthey can't play crysis for sure11:22
aquatixwazd: i think people mind the less-than-whoa-fast! processors11:22
aquatixwazd: yeah :/11:22
aquatixbut that's not where they are intended for anyway11:22
mavhcif your laptop can play crysis you can't carry it11:22
aquatixmy girlfriend couldn't be happier with her netbook11:22
RST38hJaffa: The thing is that what you said still does not explain why one would buy a netbook11:22
aquatixRST38h: because it doesn't cause a hernia?11:23
RST38haquatix: I am sure it does! =)11:23
mavhcyou buy a netbook if you have a desktop and don't use a laptop much11:23
Vulcanisdoes not cause hernia11:23
Vulcaniscauses cancer in california11:23
wazdso I don't actually get why I have to pay 1400 bucks instead of 400 for totaly same functionality :)11:23
AstralStwazd: nice, but then, n810 has 5h of wifi and is more portable :) I can type about 70% as fast on it11:23
aquatixVulcanis: what doesn't? ;)11:23
RST38hwazd: Not the same functionality - netbooks have smaller, lower quality LCDs, slower CPUs, smaller keyboards11:24
mavhcwazd: you pay for the dvd drive, fast cpu, high res screen11:24
Vulcanisaquatix: Nokia products11:24
aquatixheh :)11:24
wazdmavhc: I have 1280x720 screen11:24
JaffaRST38h: How about these two OTTOMH... 1) someone has a powerful desktop, but needs a nice, small, cheap machine for lightweight tasks when travelling; 2) someone has a bad back/neck, but still travels. can't afford an expensive lightweight laptop and doesn't need the oomph anyway11:24
RST38hwazd: On the other hand, I hope netbooks wil help bringing laptop prices down ;)11:24
AstralStwazd: I can extend to 7h if using bluetooth for connectivity11:24
wazdmavhc: Pretty high-res11:24
AstralStbut, my cell phone will die sooner ;P11:24
RST38hJaffaL I would go with a smartphone or a NIT for these usage cases11:25
mavhcwazd: on which netbook?11:25
RST38hJaffa: In fact, I DO go with a NIT for them =)11:25
wazdmavhc: HP 213311:25
AstralStNIT even can be easily used for browsing (unexpected, eh?)11:25
AstralStunlike most smartphones11:25
wazdmavhc: new 2140 has even higher res11:25
JaffaRST38h: Yes, *you* do. I find typing lots on the NIT tedious. And Nokia've hardly advertised them well.11:25
AstralStJaffa: I guess because NITs aren't a "done" product yet11:26
Vulcanisthey advertized them at all?11:26
mavhcpre netbook all small laptops were high end, they're just low end small laptops, with SSDs11:26
JaffaNetbooks also "do" the web better than NITs,have more variety, can be cheaper and are *known*11:26
RST38hJaffa: I don't type much on a NIT really, although typing is a bitch, even with an external keyboard11:26
AstralStI think they're trying to evolve them into next-gen smartphones11:26
aquatixRST38h: eh, try typing on a paper/thesis in TeX for some hours on a NIT11:26
AstralStwell, I do type a bit on my n810, and it's nice11:26
AstralStcode, actually11:26
mavhcNITs are smartphones without the phone11:26
RST38haquatix: I have had a desktop for that11:26
wazdWhat's bad on netbooks?)11:26
AstralStmavhc: yes, and n9xx will have that fixed11:26
aquatixRST38h: not in the plain/train/park bench you don't11:27
RST38haquatix: And if I need to do it on the road, Portege R100 is only 1.25kg11:27
JaffaRST38h: Right, so if someone wnated to type, say, a few emails whilst on a train/plane; what's the best device category for them?11:27
wazdExcept the price ofcourse)11:27
aquatixRST38h: and only $1000 more?11:27
RST38hJaffa: My E70 does email typing very very nicely11:27
aquatixa netbook you about literally throw into your bga11:27
AstralStRST38h: oh, n810 does too11:27
RST38haquatix: I have no desktop. For me it is +$1000 -price of desktop11:27
mavhcso $70011:27
AstralStI have a "mobile desktop" class of laptop11:27
RST38hAstral: Actually, no. E70 is way better than any other mobile device at this ;)11:28
AstralStand n81011:28
VulcanisI have an ultraportable laptop11:28
AstralStVulcanis: as in pocketable?11:28
wazdAstralSt: ultraport is not DTR)11:28
RST38hmavhc: Nope. A desktop will cost you around $500, no less. Add $300 for a monitor11:28
* aquatix has an ultraportable too, and a lovely n81011:28
VulcanisAstralSt: About 3lb11:28
JaffaRST38h: Not everyone has an E70! Are you deliberately trolling now, or just saying that anyone who has a netbook (incl. johnx and wazd) haven't considered things properly?11:28
RST38hmavhc: So for me it is +$20011:28
Vulcanisbut between my Thinkpad X60 and n800, I don't really need too much more11:28
AstralStJaffa: obviously the latter11:28
mavhcwhat's the price of an e70?11:29
AstralStmavhc: google is your friend, or nokia.com11:29
RST38hJaffa: First of all, I am ALWAYS deliberately trolling, in the definition you are using :)11:29
VulcanisI don't really see why everyone wants the netbooks11:29
aquatixJaffa: i think we should just accept that RST38h doesn't see the advantage a netbook can have for someone who doesn't already own a smartphone, NIT and desktop11:29
AstralStno need for a smartphone11:29
mavhcVulcanis: because they're cheap laptops11:29
bef0rdthe cool factor11:29
RST38hJaffa: Secondly, all I am trying to say is that netbooks fall into some category that I can't imagine a use for11:29
aquatixVulcanis: my gf uses it as her own computer, aside from her palmtop11:29
mavhcpeople always want cheap things11:29
wazdRST38h: notebook for poor slaves11:30
aquatixVulcanis: it's conveniently small, light and gets her stuff done11:30
JaffaRST38h: Yes, but you have to accept THAT OTHER PEOPLE CAN!11:30
RST38hwazd: Maybe, yes11:30
johnxRST38h, sometimes, there are products aimed at other people than you11:30
qwerty12RST38h, you seem to insist on making everyone think they way you do.11:30
aquatixJaffa: indeed11:30
Vulcanismavhc: But they're crap! Its like people who  buy 400$ dells expecting them to last.   Sure, they're better built, but I doubt they will last11:30
wazdRST38h: so, whats the deal)11:30
mavhcthat's why they make more than 1 product11:30
AstralStJaffa: actually, they'd be better with other hardware most of the time11:30
VulcanisI haven't seen anything but an eee in person, but it just doesn't feel... right.11:30
mavhcVulcanis: how are they crap?11:30
* aquatix wanders off11:30
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AstralStwith a netbook, you can't run any performance-intensive stuff11:30
aquatixVulcanis: Eee's don't feel right here too11:30
Jaffaditto. Babies to sort11:30
Vulcanismavhc: I guess its more just the obsolescence thing.11:30
mavhcthey're less likely to break than a laptop, no HDD11:31
AstralStand vs a NIT, you gain weight, larger screen and keyboard11:31
aquatixbut an Acer Aspire One or Samsung NC10 are actually usable11:31
RST38hJaffa: Well, other people are trying to explain to me, but there are some logical problems with explanations11:31
johnxVudentz, true. the eee kinda sucks :) there are many better choices11:31
AstralStand some hd space11:31
aquatix160GB even in the NC10 ;)11:31
AstralStaquatix: and more expensive too? :P11:31
mavhcit's not a netbook with an HDD11:31
aquatixAstralSt: depends11:31
RST38hJaffa: it is like someone explaining the virtues of having a bicycle11:31
johnxRST38h, I wasn't even talking to you about netbooks. O_o11:31
AstralStaquatix: NC10 has a list price or 500$11:32
RST38hJaffa: You know, healthy, 2-hour morning trips to work, etc11:32
aquatixAstralSt: last time i looked, the Eee 10" was about the same11:32
aquatixAstralSt: oh?11:32
wazdrandom  flame comment\11:32
aquatixwas cheaper here11:32
AstralSthmm, maybe it got cheaper11:32
RST38hJaffa: And the only thing I can say is "Why not just buy a freaking car?" :)11:32
johnxRST38h, no, it's like someone saying that a bicycle works for them and talking to someone else about biking to work: Not an invitation to tell them they're wrong11:32
aquatixAstralSt: we got it for 380 EUR11:32
AstralStRST38h: because gas is expensive11:32
AstralStaquatix: so, for more than 500$, hehehe11:32
mavhcand there's no parking11:32
AstralStor an equivalent11:32
aquatixAstralSt: that's not comparable dammit ;)11:33
mavhcand it's 1/10th the price11:33
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RST38hAStral: That argument has also been used (see scrollback buffer) :)11:33
wazdTell my one thing everybody)11:33
wazdWhy shoud I pay more for same stuff?11:33
AstralStmore? same?11:33
mavhcbecause it's better in some way11:33
aquatixwazd: what are you comparing now?11:33
wazdno its not for me11:33
RST38h'cause it is not the same11:33
mavhcsmaller, lighter, faster, more reliable11:33
AstralStfor 500$, you can get a standard laptop of moderate power11:33
wazdnot smaller, not lighter, doing same stuff11:34
AstralStnot smaller *enough* actually11:34
AstralStbecause you still need a bag11:34
wazdI have aluminium case, does Portege?11:34
johnxRST38h, I kinda wish you'd stop trolling sometimes :/11:34
mavhcyou don't need another bag, just put it in your main bag11:34
AstralStmavhc: oh yeah sure11:34
AstralStI don't carry a bag with me11:34
AstralStit looks bad etc.11:34
AstralStI win, eh? :P11:35
wazdI'm caring my mini in my small standart "non-notebook" bag11:35
mavhcwazd: it's 5 times faster, has a dvd drive, higher res screen, I assume11:35
AstralStyou mean, a suitcase?11:35
RST38hjohnx: Done (have to get back to work)11:35
wazdmavhc: I dont need al that CPU HP11:35
AstralStdevastating to joints11:35
wazdmavhc: at ALL11:35
mavhcwazd: so don't buy it11:35
mavhcwe'll stop forcing you to buy it, ok11:35
wazdI'm so glad)11:36
mavhcalso don't buy that gaming desktop if you don't want to play games11:36
wazdWe suddenly have found a reasn to buy a netbook11:36
AstralStlike what kind of reason?11:36
mavhcyou don't need more cpu power11:36
AstralSta standard laptop for text editing will be cheaper11:36
wazdI wan't to have a cheap reliable laptop11:36
* aquatix would rather buy a $400 netbook than a $400 laptop that weighs 2x as much and has some crappy celeron and only slightly bigger resolution and poorer battery life11:37
AstralStcheap != reliable11:37
aquatixAstralSt: did you even try some?11:37
wazdAstralSt: wrong11:37
AstralStesp. that netbooks are not reliable11:37
RST38hunfortunately, yes11:37
mavhcAstralSt: so we shouldn't buy the cheap laptop, because it's not reliable?11:37
AstralStyes, although not the newest offering11:37
RST38hAlthough Samsung is a big step in that direction11:37
wazdAstralSt: expensive != reliable11:37
mavhcAstralSt: cite your source11:37
AstralStwazd: that's true too11:37
wazdso whats the point11:37
mavhcwho's netbook is dead?11:37
AstralStmavhc: source? cite yours ;P11:37
RST38hwazd: you know a difference between <-> and -> ?11:38
AstralStmavhc: sorry, had to fix a few11:38
mavhcthey have no HDD, hence more reliable11:38
AstralStas in hardware11:38
AstralStyes, as if hdds were unreliable11:38
AstralStthe problem is not storage11:38
aquatixmavhc: erm, we have one with 160GB hdd11:38
AstralStbut cheap plastics11:38
aquatixAstralSt: well11:38
wazdI have 120Gb HDD11:38
mavhcaquatix: as I said, if it has an HDD it's not a netbook11:38
wazdAluminium casing11:38
aquatixmavhc: wrong11:38
RST38hmavhc: Why?11:38
aquatixsooo wrong11:39
AstralStwazd: what netbook?11:39
aquatixi'm outta here11:39
aquatixnot wanting to do this on sunday morning11:39
wazdAstrasSt: same as 5 mins ago obviously))11:39
wazdAstralSt: HP 213311:39
aquatixbefore i even had coffee or food :)11:39
mavhcbecause a netbook is something with no moving parts, except perhaps a fan, than you can throw around11:39
aquatixmavhc: in your definition maybe11:39
RST38haquatix: But now you are no longer asleep11:39
pupnikmy 'netbook' has a hdd and a fan11:39
aquatixRST38h: yeah, but greatly annoyed ;)11:39
AstralStwazd: hmm11:39
RST38hmavhc: Netbook is a dirt-cheap laptop, that is all it is11:40
mavhcaquatix: well there's got to be some real difference11:40
aquatixmavhc: like, size and power?11:40
mavhcRST38h: don't give it a new name then11:40
AstralStRST38h: dirt-cheap *small* laptop11:40
aquatixAstralSt: indeed11:40
RST38hFor once, there is a clear definition (try that with MIPS or "smartphone")11:40
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RST38hAstral: Original Intel netbook is rather large BTW11:40
AstralStyes, or Asus11:40
AstralStbut then, these are proto-netbooks ;P11:40
RST38hmavhc: I did not give it a name, can't take it back :)11:40
mavhcthe problem with a laptop is the hdd, you shouldn't move it when it's on11:40
Vulcanis[04:39:32] <mavhc> because a netbook is something with no moving parts, except perhaps a fan, than you can throw around -- perhaps Nerf should make one11:41
AstralStmavhc: wrong11:41
aquatixmavhc: bullocks11:41
AstralStlaptop hdds are very resilient11:41
* aquatix has had laptops for years and even dropped one while it was powered on11:41
mavhcexcept the pile of 20 dead ones I have here11:41
Vulcanisesp. on a thinkpad ^.^11:41
aquatixnever had a problem11:41
wazdHP Mini even have HDD defense11:41
AstralStmavhc: buying cheap hardware again?11:41
aquatixAstralSt: :)11:41
wazdHP like throw protection11:41
mavhcAstralSt: of course11:41
AstralStwhatever, the hd itself has a G-sensor11:41
johnxsince I already did it before I stopped caring: comparison of an HP Mini 1000 vs a Portege A600:
* aquatix now really wanders off to some food and coffee11:42
AstralStno need for an additional one11:42
aquatixjohnx: ha, nice11:42
wazdis it sunday today?!11:42
Vulcanisits friday11:42
aquatixhere it is11:42
Vulcanisso I can not go to school tomorrow, because it will then be saturday11:43
AstralStVulcanis: free, but sunday11:43
aquatixVulcanis: :)11:43
aquatixwish i could say the same of my work11:43
Vulcanissleep problems don't help things.  Nor do midterms.11:43
AstralStfortunately, I'm free of sleep problems11:44
VulcanisYeah, be happy.11:44
RST38hjohnx: Well, it is expected (especially with a larger A600). But I really like that pack of playing cards form factor! :)11:44
AstralStbut then, having to finish 4 projects is not nice11:44
aquatixAstralSt: same here :/11:44
Vulcanisjohnx: Where can I buy one of these "Pack of playing cards", and what are the specs?11:44
johnxRST38h, yeah, but try typing on that thing. no feedback whatsoever! :P11:44
* aquatix gets that coffee and food11:44
aquatixVulcanis: supermarket11:44
aquatixVulcanis: 53 non-moving parts11:45
pupnikwhat is the other webkit browser for tablets called?  not "tear"11:45
x29aglobal whining hour about who has the hardest life?11:45
aquatixsolid state++11:45
qwerty12pupnik, webkit-eal11:45
pupnikand btw "tear" is a terrible name for googling.11:45
Vulcanis55 if you count jokers and the crappy rules card, aqua11:45
mavhcjust plug your HUD glasses and finger keyboard and mouse into the playcard sized computer, done11:45
AstralStaquatix: obviosuly, not counting the exams11:45
x29apicking my nose and follow irc conversations, that aint easy11:45
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pupnikthanks qwerty12, johnx11:45
Vulcanis[04:45:22] <mavhc> just plug your HUD glasses and finger keyboard and mouse into the playcard sized computer, done-- but then we get into 'decks' from Neuromancer11:45
aquatixVulcanis: details ;)11:45
AstralStone project to wrap up is the hwr, but don't expect a release just yet11:45
RST38hjohnx: Separate, wrist mounted BT keyboard!11:45
RST38hjohnx: Actually, I want it as part of my jacket :)11:46
aquatixNeuromancer \o/11:46
pupniki'd like keyboard pants11:46
pupnikon the top of the thigh11:46
johnxRST38h, d00d. those playing card things don't even have hte bluet00thz!11:46
AstralStnot until I manage to get it to read continuous handwriting11:46
aquatixpupnik: so you can fondle legally?11:46
aquatixin public?11:46
pupnikit's just a natural resting place for hands.11:46
RST38hpupnik: Would you prefer the keys on the front or...mmhmmm...on the BACK? =)11:46
AstralStpupnik: for that reason, it's pointless11:46
pupnikheh, near the knee11:46
johnxpupnik, just for you:
RST38hjohnx: Care to test that with your fingers? ;)11:46
AstralStwhere do you put your hands when you don't want to type?11:46
pupniki'm always typing11:47
aquatixpupnik: knee? so that will only work when you are sitting?11:47
aquatixpupnik: or do you have really long arms? :)11:47
aquatixjohnx: ah!11:47
mavhcyou don't need a real keyboard, just finger position detectors, for your air kb11:47
pupnikawesome johnx... but i was thinking of a chording model11:47
aquatixmavhc: yeah, hologrammed in the air11:47
pupnikstill awesome tho11:47
RST38hmavhc <-- essentially correct11:48
aquatixexcept that a hologram doesn't provide tactile feedbak11:48
RST38hLike that demo Nokia (?) did with someone typing on a bare desk while the smartphone camera tracked his movements11:48
AstralStmavhc: it doesn't work well11:48
aquatixRST38h: or that laser keyboard11:48
mavhcit? I just imagined it11:48
RST38haquatix: More cumbersome, needs extra battery11:48
AstralStRST38h: too much AI in that ;P11:48
RST38hAstral: naaah, just some image processing11:49
aquatixRST38h: can be build into your device11:49
RST38hThere is more AI in Emacs11:49
AstralStI tried to have that workign11:49
aquatixRST38h: but still, doesn't provide tactile feedback11:49
RST38haquatix: type on a piece of bubble wrap! :)11:49
johnxhmm, need some augmented reality goggles to let you see the keyboard maybe :)11:49
AstralStRST38h: really? I tried to do that with standard motion detection algorithms11:49
aquatixRST38h: with every bubble a key?11:49
RST38hjohnx: [drugs]11:49
AstralStit needed a load of CPU but didn't work so well11:49
RST38haquatix: yea11:49
aquatixbetter use that roll-up-able keyboard i have lieing here11:49
aquatixeven full-sized11:50
AstralStsometimes misread keys11:50
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RST38hAstral: IANAGG, but you probably want to use probabilistic analysis with Markov chains11:50
AstralStaquatix: link?11:50
mavhcadd force feedback to your glove11:50
AstralStRST38h: did I mention AI?11:50
AstralStexcept it doesn't work too well either11:50
AstralStmuch like T911:50
RST38hAstral: Probabilistic stuff isn't really AI11:51
AstralStoh, it is11:51
AstralStesp. markov chains11:51
AstralStstill, predictive text is *old*11:51
RST38hWell...maybe in the wide sense of that term11:51
AstralStI could fix the problems with it11:51
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AstralStbut then, that introduces new problems :P11:51
RST38hIt is not the traditional stuff though (logic, planning, etc)11:51
AstralStit is11:52
AstralStit's used for that in some games even11:52
RST38hGame AI != CS AI11:52
AstralSt(as part of an expert system)11:52
AstralStoh really?11:52
mavhcaugmented reality works today11:52
RST38hTraditional CS AI is such a narrow field, unfortunately11:52
AstralStRST38h: tell me again, is pattern recognition not CS AI?11:52
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AstralStall AI is probabilistic anyway :)11:53
mavhconce you get it working they remove it from the AI field and give it its own field11:53
RST38hAstral: hasn't been since that Marvin Minsky guy had his proof of a perceptron not able to do a XOR11:54
johnxmavhc, yeah, looking forward to seeing more of it in the next couple years :)11:54
mavhcAI is just all the stuff that doesn't quite work yet11:54
AstralSt(excluding hard data mining and expert systems, which are dead field already ;P )11:54
wazdLong ago I was translating a text bout retinal projector11:54
AstralStRST38h: perceptron is one special kind of pattern recognition11:54
wazdThat's the future of agumented reality11:54
RST38hAstral: Practically, it is AI of course. It is just that mainstream CS AI guys abandoned this stuff long time ago and only recently returnned to it11:54
AstralStbut then, markov chaining is not a simple perceptron11:55
RST38hAstral: Exactly, in fact you can do a XOR, just add an extra layer11:55
AstralStstill, most fun problems are linearly separable11:55
AstralStno need for XOR ;P11:55
mavhc is one AR demo I saw recently11:56
AstralStsee, the trick with this motion detector is the amount of noise present11:56
AstralStin movement of fingers11:56
AstralStthus, they had to go back to predictive text to reduce error rate11:57
AstralStmeans - failure11:57
RST38hmavhc: green screen tech11:57
RST38hmavhc: Has been used for years to flip through ads shown at hockey/soccer matches11:58
RST38hIt is actually pretty cool11:58
AstralStnice new name though, eh?11:59
johnxwhat I'm waiting for is an honest to god HUD with some basic ability to add info about what I'm seeing11:59
AstralStjohnx: "info about what I'm seeing" = hard AI11:59
AstralStHUD is fairly simple11:59
RST38hjohnx: What? Ability to target and shoot explosive projectiles isn't at the top of your list?11:59
mavhcjohnx: there's smartphone demos that do that now12:00
johnxAstralSt, face recognition?12:00
johnxRST38h, maybe our respective country's cultures are wearing off on us? :P12:00
johnxmavhc, but not quite "heads up" yet :)12:00
AstralStjohnx: face recognition is simple enough, with low enough error rate12:00
AstralStlike, 0.05%12:00
mavhcfor a subset of people12:01
AstralStof course, that's bad enough to not warrant using it for any security purpose12:01
AstralStbut governments aren't listening12:01
mavhcthey are listening, just to people selling the tech12:01
johnxAstralSt, exactly. that kind of stuff. and info on buildings, directions overlayed,12:01
AstralStobviously ;P12:01
RST38hjohnx: Don't think so, this stuff is pretty universal AFAIK12:01
AstralStbuildings... hmmm, GPS + vector map?12:01
AstralStbut you'd need a compass too12:02
johnxRST38h, it's funny, but the only people I feel like shooting sometimes are on the internet...12:02
AstralStto get more sure direction data (GPS is notoriously bad at that at low speed)12:02
RST38hjohnx: and I believe you have been a systadmin too, so you should know the feeling12:02
johnxRST38h, I was lucky. I had good users :)12:02
RST38hjohnx: See? There *are* such people!12:02
johnxRST38h, now retail computer sales and repair...that's another story12:03
AstralStjohnx: the problem is - do you want to wear some kind of glasses?12:03
johnxAstralSt, I already where glasses :)12:03
mavhcalready do12:03
AstralStOLEDs could be used to solve this problem "transparently"12:03
AstralStlaser projection... maybe12:03
mavhcg1 has a compass, so maybe it's using that12:03
mavhcglasses will do for the next 10 years, then lasers12:04
johnxmavhc, yup, compass+gps+accelerometer(?)12:04
mavhcthen just plug straight into my brain12:04
AstralStyes, these12:04
AstralStplus some additional motion detection from camera?12:04
AstralSt(you need that for face recognition anyway)12:04
johnxyeah, that wikitude app looks pretty neat. it's screaming for faster hardware though, and maybe a little more polish12:04
aquatixmavhc: i rather keep it seperated from my brains12:05
AstralStthe problem is hinting at what is a face12:05
mavhcthen before I die find a way to copy my brain to a computer so I can live forever on the internet12:05
AstralStand controlling the HUD12:05
AstralStjohnx: do you want to carry a keyboard with you? :P12:05
mavhcAstralSt: did you see Horizon's Where's My Robot?12:05
johnxAstralSt, why would I need one?12:05
AstralStjohnx: to say to the hud "face detection"12:05
AstralStit would misdetect otherwise12:06
AstralSta lot12:06
johnxCheap point+shoot cameras have been doing facial recognition quite well for years12:06
AstralStfrom clean pics12:06
mavhcfinding faces is easy12:06
johnxI mean recognizing that something is a face at least12:06
AstralStnot from real life movement and such12:06
AstralStyes yes12:06
mavhcif they're looking straight at you12:06
RST38hcheap p&s has got OTHER problems with real life movement :)12:07
johnxAstralSt, I'm fine with it going away when I'm moving or whatever. I rarely need it then12:07
AstralStjohnx: then, a simple key to engage detection would be ok, right? :P12:07
AstralStor some other way of signalling it12:07
aquatixmavhc: interesting demo12:07
johnxAstralSt, eh, or if the software has a low confidence factor it won't show me the info, if it has a high confidence factor that it recognized a face, then it should show it12:08
johnxthis also, has been in p+s cams for a while...12:08
AstralStit *will* fail in funny ways a lot :)12:08
AstralStlike, seeing a face on a building12:08
AstralStdetecting faces in ads12:09
AstralSta lot of info you don't want12:09
AstralStunless you augument it with some nice AI for DWIM12:09
johnxAstralSt, that's the kind of stuff I want to find out :) what works, what doesn't12:09
johnxmaybe a glove would be ok for input, or something that sits on my wrist and watches my tendons12:10
AstralStyeah, like a chord keyboard :>12:10
johnxexcept something that doesn't completely occupy a whole hand all the freaking time :)12:11
AstralStI remember a design like that12:11
AstralStno need for that if you mount it on a glove12:11
johnxare you talking about something like a frogpad (is that it?)12:11
AstralStnah, frogpad is a standard small keyboard...12:12
AstralStalthough chorded12:12
AstralStI'm talking that on a glove :P12:12
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mavhcgoogle street view's face detection to blur faces blurs horse faces too12:12
johnxmavhc, that's intentional :D12:13
aquatixmavhc: rightly so12:13
aquatixyou don't want to be seen with the wrong horse12:13
mavhchorse privacy lobby is powerful12:13
johnxdoesn't blur people peeing on the street though12:13
aquatixjohnx: it blurred her face though ;)12:13
AstralStjohnx: ;)12:14
johnxso is it blurring peoples' faces in all regions now?12:14
mavhcwhen I saw the streetview car in nottingham I followed it around so I can be in lots of the photos12:14
AstralStcan be done better12:14
AstralSte.g. analog12:14
johnxI'm just not sure if trying to map qwerty onto a glove like that is the right idea12:14
AstralStor with a standard nice 3D glove12:14
AstralSt(which is expensive)12:14
AstralStI said chorded, no need for qwerty12:15
AstralStit could launch functions directly12:15
johnxor switch to T912:15
AstralStpredictive text strikes again! ;P12:15
johnxyeah, I guess that's just a keymap and in input method on the software side12:15
AstralStT9 is underpowered really12:16
* aquatix likes qwerty better on a phone already12:16
AstralStcan be improved easily, but still, that doesn't work around the patent12:16
johnxgah, forgot about the patent12:16
aquatixmaybe some dvorak-like layout for the glove12:16
johnxor T10 :)12:16
AstralStwe need more analog keyboards12:17
AstralStwho needs a binary input, when we can use all of the hand movements?12:17
AstralStmagic, anyone?12:17
AstralStgive "gestures" a new meaning12:18
AstralStpity those 3D gloves are so expensive12:18
johnxwhole new ways for people to develop carpal tunnel syndrome :)12:18
aquatixAstralSt: maybe we can do something with cheap motion sensors12:18
aquatixjohnx: :)12:18
AstralStaquatix: optical? sorry, tried it12:19
AstralStjohnx: rather, avoid12:19
AstralStbecause of varying movement12:19
aquatixAstralSt: no12:19
aquatixthe ones you have in phones nowadays12:19
AstralStthose are accelerometers12:19
AstralStgood 3D gloves use them12:19
aquatixyeah, just wanted to say so12:19
johnxdunno, that demo of the keyglove looked like a recipe for some kind of repetitive stress injury O_o12:20
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AstralStjohnx: it's more of a joke :)12:20
johnxhey Stslaptop12:20
johnxhmm, accelerometers aren't that expensive12:20
aquatixjohnx: indeed12:20
aquatixand you don't need that many12:20
AstralStaquatix: ^12:20
aquatixbut you might want to keep the position of your fingers and such into account12:21
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aquatixAstralSt: 404?12:21
AstralStgoogle then :)12:21
AstralStanyway, good 3D glove will have tension sensors, flex sensors and accelerometers12:22
aquatixdo those give feedback too?12:22
Stskeepsjohnx: i wonder if composite is broken in hildon-desktop12:22
aquatixby resisting a bit and such?12:22
johnxStskeeps, are you sure we have it in our xorg driver?12:23
* johnx boots mer12:23
AstralStyou could have some vibrators though12:23
aquatixAstralSt: yeah, thought about that12:23
AstralStuhm, shakers12:23
aquatixwould be sufficient i think12:23
AstralStstill, this becomes expensive micromanufacturing12:23
aquatixas you only need feedback12:23
Stskeepsjohnx: do me a favour and try to only upgrade libhildondesktop libhildonwm0 and hildon-desktop12:23
wazdhey Sts)12:24
johnxalright, will in a minute12:24
Stskeepsit stopped working completely in my install so :P12:24
wazdI've done what you've requested with logo12:24
johnxStskeeps, dependency problems?12:24
Stskeepswazd: can i see? :)12:24
Stskeepsjohnx: not sure, just breaks at boot12:24
Stskeepshehe, looks cool12:25
RST38hmoo Srs12:25
Stskeepsjohnx: i found out why other themes made by theme maker doesnt work in mer12:26
Stskeepsjohnx: fallback icon theme12:26
johnxah, right. ours has a different name, huh?12:26
Stskeepsyeah, 'hildon'12:27
Stskeepsbut i've uploaded titan to the repo with changed wallpaper now too12:27
Stskeepsand began initial stuff with theme stuff in hildon-desktop-env (dont upgrade yet)12:27
johnxah, Nokia's theme app is closed, right?12:28
qwerty12Stskeeps, hildon-desktop's license is good obviously?12:28
Stskeepsi bet we can prod kontorri12:28
johnxare theme changes done through d-bus?12:28
Stskeepsqwerty12: hmm?12:28
Stskeepsjohnx: well look at /etc/osso-af-init/osso-gtk.defs and matchbox.defs12:29
qwerty12Stskeeps, - looking at that, installing the locale package to hildon-desktop seems to be good...12:29
Stskeepsthink that's where it mostly comes from12:29
Stskeepsqwerty12: i thought we had maemo-af-desktop-l10n already12:30
qwerty12Ah, yes, we do. I was under the impresssion that we don't >.<. Have any plans on uploading it if you haven't done so? home_ap_home_view looks ugly.12:31
Stskeepswell the issue is that the .po file is not there in fremantle hildon desktop12:31
Stskeepsit worked in non fremantle hildon desktop12:31
qwerty12I'll adapt it, I don't like using hildon-desktop without proper names.12:32
Stskeepsjohnx: symptom i encounted was hildon-desktop crashing, but i was confused by the fact it did the same in Xomap :P12:34
johnxhow did it crash?12:35
johnxwill install in a minute12:36
Stskeepsi'll catch up on iTT :P12:36
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Stskeeps <- I so want this poster12:41
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: do you think Xomap would be better?12:42
Meiz_n810thann Xorg in mer12:42
StskeepsMeiz_n810: yes/no, but i knew composite worked there :P12:42
aquatixStskeeps: *grin* @ poster12:42
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: how much faster Xomap is?12:43
StskeepsMeiz_n810: well they have manual updates, we don't12:43
Stskeepsthat pretty much wins the rac12:43
* Meiz_n810 is re-installing Mer12:44
StskeepsMeiz_n810: mm, be aware some pieces are broken atm, so if you do it through imager, i cant promise it works12:44
* AstralSt would love to install Mer, but has to wrap up hwr12:45
AstralStStskeeps: what's broken, btw?12:45
StskeepsAstralSt: think i compiled hildon desktop for the first time with composite, and through scratchbox12:45
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Stskeepsand something seems to have gone awry12:46
Stskeeps(all other apps work fine)12:46
Stskeepstesting that scenario right now12:46
AstralSthmm, anyway... need to port Gentoo first12:46
Meiz_n810i want to make a theme, but theme maker just does't work :(12:47
AstralStwrite a bunch of n8x0 specific ebuilds12:47
AstralStStskeeps: do I have to grab the original gpsdriver, or is there some replacement?12:47
StskeepsAstralSt: slon actually succeeded in EABI gentoo now12:47
AstralStesp. OSS replacement12:47
Meiz_n810konttori: ping?12:47
StskeepsMeiz_n810: work on where?12:47
qwerty12Stskeeps, may I suggest that you replace utelnetd with openssh? or if you want to stay with the telnet route, add an ftp server then please12:48
Stskeepsqwerty12: utelnetd in a rescue mode? :P12:48
AstralStdropbear? :P12:48
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: it stays on 1% :(12:48
StskeepsMeiz_n810: hm :P12:48
qwerty12Stskeeps, yes12:48
Meiz_n810when i click "build theme"12:48
qwerty12I may switch to g_serial and get it to upload files there. atm, I'm fucking around with xxd.12:48
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Stskeepsqwerty12: feel free to build g_serial and modulize it, rescue mode has already a menu point for it12:49
stv0yeah i ported my first app ;)12:49
stv0do we have any documents howto package apps?12:49
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AstralStstv0: I'd like one too12:51
AstralStI guess debian packaging guide is it12:51
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Stskeepsqwerty12: and you're welcome to package up dropbear too12:52
qwerty12Stskeeps, if you didn't catch it, I've had g_serial.ko on maemobox for a long time now12:52
Stskeepsyeah, ok, ive just been to lazy to package it :P12:53
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, it's my composite build causing it12:53
qwerty12Fuck telnet. I've crashed utelnetd by pasting an hex dump into vi.12:54
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aquatixqwerty12: fun :)12:54
* aquatix doesn't see the point of a telnetd on a modern device anyway12:54
RST38hthat sounds more like utelnetd problem =)12:54
Stskeepsaquatix: small and for usb connecting :P12:54
RST38haquatix: the point is to let us all see his passwords12:55
aquatixRST38h: shush ;)12:55
qwerty12Hah, what password. This is mer.12:55
RST38hdon't tell me it is not a worthy point12:55
RST38hqwerty: in general I mean12:56
Stskeepsqwerty12: 'rootme'12:56
qwerty12Stskeeps, fair enough :P12:56
qwerty12I'm convinced utelnetd is there to piss me off.12:56
stv0wtf why chmod +x dont work?12:57
Stskeepsapt-get install dropbear? :P12:57
Stskeepsstv0: doing it on a FAT filesystem? :P12:58
qwerty12With what connection?12:58
qwerty12If I had the internet, I'd be wgetting my way out of this shithole ;)12:58
stv0i can't execute any code from a fat partition?12:58
Stskeepsqwerty12: route add default gw :P12:58
qwerty12stv0, no. fat sucks. this is linux.12:58
Stskeepsif your machine is 2.112:58
wazddaamn, I have totaly nothing to do(13:00
wazdSo boring13:00
stv0yeah avrdude runs ;)13:00
Stskeepsqwerty12: change your /etc/network/interfaces into
Stskeeps(just ignore the comments)13:00
Stskeepsit will make your life a lot easier13:01
qwerty12On the tablet I assume?13:01
Stskeepsi guess you have johnx's masq curse in your machine /etc/network/interfaces13:01
qwerty12My kernel setup on this machine is a fucking mess tbh13:01
Stskeepstry test first with route add default gw stuff13:02
Stskeepsand then ping some outside ip address13:02
Stskeeps(ip not host)13:02
qwerty12I can't even get my jffs2 images mounted any more - I have to use a hardy live cd just to get the maemo rootfs mounted13:02
AstralStqwerty12: you made lzma jffs213:02
AstralStyou now have to build a kernel with support for that13:02
qwerty12AstralSt, they must have removed it then :/. Thanks :)13:03
AstralStas everything13:03
AstralStthey remove useful features in maemo13:03
AstralSte.g. busybox w/o anything ;P13:03
qwerty12Stskeeps, thanks, ping works13:04
Stskeepsqwerty12: edit your /etc/resolv.conf then13:04
Stskeepsto match your DNS server13:05
qwerty12Sure, let me get the address out of this router (god, I hate the restricted shell in this one..)13:05
* Stskeeps notes to himself he's not going to be pleased if hildon-desktop just in general breaks on scratchbox13:07
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Stskeepsmorning konttori13:10
* konttori is back from costa del sol13:11
Stskeepshehe, back to cold cold finland?13:11
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aquatixhm, those RX-51 spec rumours appeal to me13:12
Stskeepsit's even more fun digging in the source for those :P13:13
lcukit will be even more fun to hold one :)13:13
aquatixlcuk: ;)13:13
aquatixmight even lead me to not buying a full-fletched smartphone13:14
lcukwell technically if we can get something voipish on the phone with skypeout type capabilities is there really a difference?13:14
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aquatixlcuk: yes13:15
Stskeepscan anyone explain to me what purpose 'gtkrc.maemo_af_desktop' has?13:15
infobotlcuk meant: well technically if we can get something voipish on the tablet with skypeout type capabilities is there really a difference?13:16
aquatixlcuk: well, network coverage basically13:16
lcuksee even im confused13:16
aquatixi can't call from my car with my n81013:16
lcukarent we expecting hspdadppdada on it with always on connectivity13:16
aquatixah right13:16
aquatixbut that's going to be more expensive than my gsm abo13:17
aquatixrather a bit more13:17
konttoriStskeeps: well, it's not that much colder in Helsinki atm, but costa del sol did have sun unlike the pitch black finland.13:17
lcukthen we best get working on better compression algos :)13:17
konttoriaquarius-: what rumors?13:17
konttoriaquatix: what rumors13:17
aquatixkonttori: see site/feed13:18
aquatixRX-51 Rumor Mongering13:18
lcukmornin konttori13:18
Stskeepsaquatix: yeah, and in any case, if it is even remotely like that, i would buy it :)13:18
aquatixStskeeps: me too13:19
aquatixn810 will be my girlfriend's next handheld then13:19
* aquatix looks at hsdpa abo's13:19
konttoriaquatix: nice finds!13:20
aquatixkonttori: i just saw it in the feed :)13:20
aquatixthat Ryan Abel guy put them in there13:20
Stskeepskonttori: btw, if one was to adjust something in gtkrc in your theme maker for all themes you build, it would just be re-making that you have?13:21
* aquatix wonders what his irc nick is13:21
konttoriHas there been the promised weekly alpha sdk updates?13:21
qwerty12aquatix, GeneralAntilles13:21
Stskeepskonttori: haven't seen any yet13:21
aquatixoh duh13:21
Stskeepskonttori: on the other hand, we're first now really catching up to all the new material13:21
konttoriStskeeps: yeah, you can just modify the .zip file.13:21
aquatixqwerty12: i'm better in nicks than in real names ;)13:21
Stskeepskonttori: thanks :)13:21
konttori(or create another one of those)13:21
konttori(you can have multiple and they will appear in the dropdown list)13:22
Stskeepskonttori: mer is a bit special in the fact that it needs a icon fallback theme, not entirely sure why :P13:22
konttoriok. I can also later add that to the theme maker default version as well.13:23
Stskeepsyeah, we'll see :) perhaps we find out how to be closer to maemo in that aspect13:23
konttorimight make sense13:23
Stskeepsyeah, able to use all the themes out there :P13:24
* lcuk kicks his slow stretchblit13:24
qwerty12Stskeeps, does root have a password?13:24
Stskeepsqwerty12: nop13:24
GeneralAntilleskonttori, I had intended to talk with Quim about it at the Sprint meeting, but he wasn't there.13:24
GeneralAntillestekojo said "soon"13:24
konttoriGeneralAntilles: what sprint meeting?13:24
lcukthe one you missed :P13:25
qwerty12Stskeeps, hrm, ssh won't let me login even though I set it to allow empty password. I'll make another root account...13:25
konttorimer spring meeting?13:25
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aquatixqwerty12: ssh doesn't allow empty pw's13:25
qwerty12aquatix, "ssh won't let me login even though I set it to allow empty password"13:25
aquatixyou set it to do?13:25
konttoriGeneralAntilles: thanks.13:25
aquatixnm then13:25
Stskeepsqwerty12: it's simply i didn't set root password in imager :P13:25
konttoriand yeah, do try to push for the updates.13:26
GeneralAntillesaquatix, I can give you part numbers if you'd like to investigate further. I didn't add them to the post since there was a negative initial reaction after discussion came out about the specs.13:26
qwerty12Stskeeps, I dunno if setting a root password will mess anything up though so I may as well make another account with uid 013:26
Stskeepsqwerty12: 'passwd root' does the trick too13:26
qwerty12Stskeeps, without messing anything else up?13:26
aquatixGeneralAntilles: negative reaction? what do you mean?13:26
Stskeepsqwerty12: no bad reactions13:26
qwerty12cool, thanks.13:27
GeneralAntillesaquatix, well, the hardware guys were a bit surprised and disturbed at where the information may have come from.13:27
aquatixGeneralAntilles: ah :)13:27
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aquatixGeneralAntilles: `use the source Luke' ;)13:27
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i think on the other hand it helps the community keeping vibrant and longing for the next device, though13:27
GeneralAntillesIt didn't amount to anything in the end and it's been set straight since, but since those parts are liable to change (as they have already for most of the items I listed at least once). . . .13:27
Stskeepsinstead of a years silence :P13:27
aquatixGeneralAntilles: but i think this info is enough for me to want it13:28
GeneralAntillesaquatix, yeah, I'm a bit giddy over the next device. :D13:28
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GeneralAntillesThe only thing I'm worried about are the hardware inputs.13:29
GeneralAntillesdpad, keyboard, etc.13:29
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GeneralAntillesWell, I'm an N800 guy.13:29
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* qwerty12 hopes it's not the same design team as the people who worked on the N81013:29
aquatixqwerty12: :)13:30
GeneralAntillesI don't much care for the hardware keyboard, and the N810 is a big step down d-pad-wise from the N800 (not that it really seems possible. . . .)13:30
Stskeepsi like the ease of popping the battery on a n810 thoug.13:30
aquatixn810 works, but it's not optimal13:30
qwerty12If it is, then we are SOL :)13:30
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, tap it on your palm13:30
GeneralAntillesIt's as easy as can be.13:30
qwerty12use a shank13:30
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: yeah, but it is a lot easier on n810 :P13:30
lcukthe dpad on n97 looks suspiciously familiar13:30
aquatixlcuk: yeah13:30
konttorinokia uses same components as often as possible13:30
GeneralAntillesIt's interesting that you never see hide nor hair of the hardware guys in the community.13:30
konttoriso, no surprise you see same components on multiple models13:31
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: thought igor was in that area?13:31
aquatixkonttori: brings consistency cross-device too13:31
aquatixcan be a good thing13:31
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, well, he's a kernel dev working very close to the hardware13:31
aquatixif designed right13:31
lcukheh konttori it was an observation not a bad thing13:31
GeneralAntillesbut not really a hardware guy.13:31
GeneralAntillesi.e., the people that design the devices13:31
konttorisure. and no, it's not a bad thing. as long as the dpads would be proper dpads all over nokia.13:31
Stskeepsjohnx: wtf.. no-composite hildon seems to break too13:32
* konttori cannot ever stop complaining about the lack of proper dpads on nokia devices.13:32
GeneralAntillesI'm sure there's plenty of day-jobbers, but it seems odd to me to put so much time into something and not really be involved with it.13:32
* Stskeeps wonders what the hell happens13:32
GeneralAntilleskonttori, it's as if they do studies to figure out what the best d-pad design is then do the opposite. . . .13:32
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lcukkonttori, design new super interface devices modelled on pamela andersons boobs13:32
GeneralAntillesThe d-pads have, amazingly, just gotten worse with each generation.13:32
lcukwe could have one on either side of the device and actually work on the cleavage area13:33
aquatixGeneralAntilles: same thing with the absence of scroll wheels13:33
aquatixi like having a scroll wheel on a phone13:33
suihkulokki"we want this mobile gaming thing to become BIG, what should we do? hmm.. let's make keys and d-pad unusable for gaming, that should do the trick!"13:33
aquatixfor example13:33
aquatixlike sony/sony ericsson had13:33
konttorisuihkulokki: yeah. receipt for successfull ngage13:33
GeneralAntillesaquatix, yeah, they're nice, but I think the inertial scrolling in Fremantle should improve that at least a little.13:33
lcukaquatix, scroll wheels are needed on a touch device only if the interface is designed incorrectly13:34
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aquatixlcuk: why? it enables me to scroll quickly through a list with one hand13:34
aquatixor read an ebook comfortably13:34
GeneralAntillesThere's nothing wrong with a scroll wheel.13:34
GeneralAntillesThe 770 is perfect for ebooks13:34
lcukbut the touchscreen should let you do that as well13:34
GeneralAntillesN800 made the +/- buttons too damn small, though.13:34
aquatixGeneralAntilles: i found my n810 works really well for ebooks too13:35
aquatixif i hold it in my left hand13:35
wazdoh, hello konttori :)13:35
aquatixthen i have the +/- buttons under my fingertips13:35
GeneralAntillesaquatix, I swap hands.13:35
konttoriwazd: hi13:35
GeneralAntillesDepending on which side I'm laying on13:35
lcuki have fbreader setup with Left + DpadEnter to do next page, Right is previous page13:35
GeneralAntillesEither turn pages with my index finger or thumb13:35
aquatixwell, in right hand i have my thumb then13:35
aquatixlcuk: on n800?13:36
lcuklazy gorilla armed bookreading nightowls13:36
lcukno, 81013:36
* aquatix doesn't want to slide out the keyboard when reading13:36
aquatixtoo wide13:36
wazdkonttori: I've found whats the true problem with TM .psd template. All colors are in here but their descriptions have dissapeared13:36
lcukaquatix, i use my crate thing and rest that and arm is just there to hold it up (like a real book)13:37
konttoriwazd: oh? really? I can have a look at that.13:37
lcukthumb is in right place all the time to turn pages13:37
johnxStskeeps, sorry, got distracted by things that aren't my computer :)13:37
johnxinstalling now13:37
aquatixmyeah, a real book isn't comfortable when on your side13:37
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, just tested myself too now, and it crashes in both composite and non composite13:37
aquatixtoo big too :)13:37
Stskeepsjohnx: this is first time we build it in scratchbox though13:37
Meiz_n810konttori, what am i doing wrong when theme-maker just stays on 1% ?13:37
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, for shame!13:38
johnxStskeeps, I've built it in scratchbox before I'm pretty sure...13:38
johnxGeneralAntilles, :P13:38
wazdkonttori: wait I'll post a screenshot13:39
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johnxyeah, I can see why hardware guys would be a littie disturbed by seeing all of those specs in one nice little article :)13:39
konttoriMeiz_n810: You have to add icon template.13:40
konttoriit's a bug, sorry about it.13:40
johnxsurprised engadget didn't manage to pick it up, but I guess that's for the best13:40
Meiz_n810ah, okay, i tought it was optional :)13:40
GeneralAntillesjohnx, only posted last night. ;)13:40
konttoriso, just select a icon template and that should do it.13:40
aquatixjohnx: i can submit it on /. ? ;)13:40
konttoriyeah, it actually says optional, but apparently I had forgotten to make it optional.13:40
johnxGeneralAntilles, but the info is from that long thread13:40
* GeneralAntilles would be happy with his first Engadget link.13:40
GeneralAntillesjohnx, nah, info is from the kernel. :P13:41
Meiz_n810konttori, icon theme image should be .png or .psd?13:41
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wazdMeiz_n810: all images should be png13:41
aquatixMeiz_n810: i think png13:41
johnxGeneralAntilles, right, kernel -> long thread -> your blog post. or did you go kernel diving yourself?13:41
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I went kernel diving as soon as it dropped.13:42
konttoriMeiz_n810: it's .png13:42
GeneralAntillesI compiled all of the model numbers directly from there. :)13:42
konttoriMeiz_n810: there should be an example image bundled in.13:42
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johnxand yeah, if the hardware guys were a little surprised about that list the marketing guys would be having kittens if it showed up on engadget13:42
johnxGeneralAntilles, wow...very nice work then :)13:42
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aquatixjohnx: :)13:42
Meiz_n810konttori: yep, there is, thanks for help13:42
GeneralAntillesjohnx, well, just have to spot all of the nonsense strings in the changelog. :P13:43
wazdscrew this, here's full Titan template :)13:43
aquatixobfuscated changelogs?13:43
konttoriMaybe I should publish a fixed version soon.13:43
wazdKonttori: check color table13:43
Stskeepsjohnx: i'm making builder build with -march=armv5te13:43
GeneralAntillesaquatix, "nonsense" meaning model numbers that aren't real English words. ;)13:43
Stskeepsany objections?13:44
konttoriI'll start making a fremantle version soonish as well, so, it might make sense to make a stable version before that.13:44
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johnxStskeeps, what was it set to before?13:44
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Stskeepsjohnx: no clue, honestly13:44
GeneralAntillesjohnx, yeah, Peter had a bit of a fit when lardman and I first discussed it.13:44
aquatixGeneralAntilles: ah :)13:44
johnxheh. poor guy13:44
GeneralAntillesSomething along the lines of it ending the move towards openness for Maemo.13:44
konttoriwazd: yeah.13:44
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm pretty sure he's ex-S60. :D13:44
wazdkonttori: If you're making Fremantle version, then it's UI is ready?)13:45
aquatixGeneralAntilles: i was thinking about the changelogs by google people to webkit stuff before android was released13:45
konttoriwazd: you mean the fremantle UI?13:45
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GeneralAntillesaquatix, changelog diving is fun.13:45
wazdkonttori: yep13:45
konttoriOf course I cannot comment, but let's say it's ready enough I could start working on theme maker to support it.13:45
Stskeepskonttori: curious question, in the current theme template there's the old hildon-desktop layout still, will the template still provide for this in the fremantle version?13:46
wazdkonttori: nice ;)13:46
Stskeepsit would benefit us n8x0'ers quite a bit :P13:46
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GeneralAntilleswazd, Nokia's worried about the bad reaction early (and even not-so-early) UI previews tend to get, so they're waiting until it's final or almost final to release.13:47
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johnxalso, the "helpful suggestions" that beta UIs encourage O_o13:48
wazdGeneral: I'm waiting too :) Already made a hole in my chair with butt :D13:48
GeneralAntillesjohnx, dunno about that, ;) but it's only a few months off.13:48
* Stskeeps likes the hildon widgets he's seen so far13:49
johnxGeneralAntilles, it'll be a race to the finish whether I see the fremantle UI first or a Pandora :)13:49
wazddamn, I have a real McDonalds under the keys :)13:49
GeneralAntillesjohnx, what if it's a tie?13:49
johnxGeneralAntilles, I'll have the attention span of a hummingbird for about a week13:50
GeneralAntillesThe Fremantle Beta is released the same day Nokia announces the Pandora is RX-51. ;)13:50
johnx"OMG! OMAP3! WTFWIN!" "OMG! clutter UI. wooo!"13:50
wazdjohnx: well, looking at Pandora's  hardware assembling speed I have bad news for you :D13:50
Stskeepsjohnx: that was my week when alpha sdk came out13:50
johnxGeneralAntilles, nah no way. the pandora has a decent d-pad. Nokia would never ship that.13:51
GeneralAntillesI gotta say, I've become quit impressed with TI over the last few years.13:51
wazdgaming d-pad is not quite decent13:52
wazdit's very comfortable but ruins device look13:52
Stskeepstouchscreen dpad?13:52
wazduntil the device is a gaming console)13:52
wazdI'd prefere small analog stick13:52
wazdit looks slick and does the trick well13:53
GeneralAntilleswazd, have you thought about doing some mockups for h-a-m?13:53
wazdGeneral: for what?)13:53
lcukcan we rename that app to b-a-c-o-n instead?13:54
GeneralAntillesThe Application Manager13:54
Stskeepslcuk: h-i-m-p-e exists too (hildon input method plugin example.. i think)13:54
aquatixBitching AppliCatiON13:54
GeneralAntillesI wish I had a reason to use that one13:54
wazdGeneral: well, I had some mock-ups very long ago13:54
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, that sounds like some cool guy's name I want to shout as he comes in a bar.13:55
GeneralAntillesLike "Norm!" except "Himpe!"13:55
wazdlong before new OS announcement)13:55
GeneralAntilleswazd, I only mention it, because it's the Nokia application most likely to implement any UI mockups. ;)13:56
GeneralAntillesI did some myself, but they're all very conservative and not all that exciting.13:56
wazdGeneral: oh, than I'll try :)13:56
wazdAre there any wordpress users in here?)13:57
aquatixwazd: why?13:58
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wazdI have very strange problem, a block with "publish" button'n'stuff disappeared13:58
aquatixwhat version?13:58
wazdWell, I'm on wordpress.com13:59
* aquatix has his own install13:59
wazdI don't get where the heck it'sgone)13:59
aquatixwazd: ctrl+f `publish' ?14:00
wazdNow I should post thru deep butthole14:00
wazdoh, didn't know bout that14:00
aquatixif i lost a button on a site, i generally just search the page :)14:01
aquatixsame with the `search' widget on a forum or something14:01
RST38hYes, wazd, please, please, redesign app manager UI =)14:05
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qwerty12Stskeeps, powerlaunch compiles fine but using it is a little funky. Init scripts don't agree with Mer and it (it being powered & powerlaunch) fails to "daemonize". It also wants to use dsmetool so I had to change it not to use that. The only thing I've been able to get it to do is to blank the screen if I hold down the power button.14:11
Stskeepsqwerty12: *nod*14:12
* Stskeeps simply does not understand why hildon crashes all of a sudden14:13
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AstralStStskeeps: strace it14:20
AstralStor run in gdb14:20
Stskeepsi am14:21
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Stskeepshm, maybe it isn't even hildon crashing14:24
johnxupgraded, rebooting14:25
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* Stskeeps watches his tablet dist-upgrade14:29
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sinakis there any nokia channel for asking about my n78?14:34
Stskeepsno clue, this is mostly 770, n800 and n810 :P14:34
RST38h*** #symbian   34   ... :: DO NOT ASK US TO SIGN YOUR SIS :: ...14:37
* johnx wouldn't let grubby IRC users anywhere near his sister O_o14:38
konttoriStskeeps: theme maker can have multiple layouts.14:39
Stskeepskonttori: alright14:39
GeneralAntillesjohnx, especially not with the intention of signing . . . whatever that is. ;)14:41
qwerty12_N800Signing is bullshit introduced by Nokia with Symbian 9.1.14:41
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, yeah, I know. :P14:42
qwerty12_N800sorry :)14:42
GeneralAntillesI'm just not sure what signing a sister would involved. ;)14:42
RST38hActually introduced by Symbian14:42
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, branding?...14:43
RST38hNokia has just been an accomplice who *could* tell Symbian to fuck themselves but did not14:43
lcuksigning attempts to ensure control over distribution14:43
lcukbut those evil haxx0rs keep breaking it14:44
lcukno, haxx0rs can be good as well :)14:44
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, Nokia employees are actually the ones most responsible for the rotation patches. :P14:44
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, the title of that thread pisses me off though ;/14:45
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, well, he's not talking about you. :P14:45
RST38hlcuk: Symbian capabilities system stod pretty well against hackers14:45
RST38hTook them a few years to break14:45
glassbut it sucks for non-commercial devs14:46
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RST38hIt even sucks for commercial devs14:46
glasscommercial devs can get tcb -all caps, if they invest the time to get them14:46
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, I know, but why should the community  o something for a response of fuck all from nokia14:46
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lcukwas that through its quality or just not worth fighting against?14:46
RST38hOne of the trivial things we have lost is the file type recognition14:46
RST38hType recognizers have to run at boot time on Symbian and THAT is a restricted capability14:46
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, he's not talking about Nokia projects. :)14:46
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GeneralAntillesHe's talking about helping out community projects.14:47
GeneralAntillesWhich you can do freely without involving Nokia at any point. :)14:47
glassRST38h: we had to beg for months to get proper caps to do mmf plugins the system would load, got them eventually though14:47
RST38hglass: yep. And I don't know anyone who ever got AllFiles cap14:47
glassRST38h: and we basically had 1 symbian dev in house, so not a big corp14:47
glassRST38h: we got it14:47
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, either way, it's not worth wasting the first post to devolve it into a flamewar. ;)14:48
glassRST38h: mmf plugins need all -tcb to be usable everywhere from built inapps14:48
RST38hglass: Wow! What kind of sacrifice have you made?14:48
RST38hglass: Was human meat involved? =)14:48
glassRST38h: just knowing the right people in the end14:48
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, I'm too quick to jump in it seems. I'll await and accept the response that says I'm talking out of my arse but i'm leaving that post there to bring attention to that point14:48
RST38hglass: Sounds
aquatixRST38h: they sent their office manager in a nice dress ;)14:48
glassRST38h: yeah, but thats how things roll...14:48
RST38hglass: That's definitely how it should not happen in application development14:49
glassRST38h: yeah, definetely not. we could've been up and running in a month and now it took 1.5years14:49
RST38hglass: Essentially, Symbian voluntarily jettisoned large swathes of its ecosystem14:49
glassRST38h: but good learning experience on how to get things done in real world(tm)14:50
RST38hglass: Naah, it is not real world, it is some kafkian fantasy from a bunch of Symbian executives. Normally, such stuff does not happen14:50
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, besides, the foam-at-the-mouth approach isn't really very effective in convincing Nokia of your argument (despite its stress-relieving benefits).14:51
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glassthe problem is that they have herds of pr people who talk to devs but don't do shit or read the mails even14:51
RST38hglass: I have seen this a total of three times, I think - with IBM (support contracts, they are actually worthless), Symbian (you know what) and Sun (J2ME licensing)14:51
RST38hglass: HAD :)14:52
RST38hNot "have". hehe14:52
glasshehe :)14:52
glasslike, what good is pro forum dedicated support person if he doesn't read his fucking mails or answer them14:52
aquatixwell, he's the *forum* person ;)14:53
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wazdAw, have I missed holywar again?(14:53
RST38hglass: reminds me of the demotivation poster with the phone14:54
glassRST38h: haha :p14:54
RST38hwazd: naah, just bitching about Symbian Signing. So, are you redesigning App manager UI? =)14:54
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, I've learnt that's there is no point in convincing a company that doesn't listen. I'd say that it is more about me posting the things that have been on my mind. To me, Nokia can choke sucking my knob. while & community is brilliant.14:55
GeneralAntillesI keep thinking that "Problems with Mer..." thread is where we can all go to complain about Stskeeps. :P14:55
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: so it is14:56
qwerty12_N800Nah, you can /msg Stskeeps for that :p14:56
RST38hglass: BTW, as an S60 guy, would you know why AknSettingsList shows all settings from multiple objects in the same control in S60e5?14:56
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, don't think of Nokia as one giant entity.14:56
glassRST38h: nope, theres #symbian here with couple of good guys though,  tbh i never really used akn much14:57
RST38hGeneral: a corporate policy is that every employee represents the same corporation so they should all have the same corporate point of view14:57
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, it's hard not to though after only ever hearing the same thing.14:58
RST38hglass: Neither did I :(14:58
GeneralAntillesMostly what you accomplished by spouting off like that is to put the people who are already on your side (Quim, in this case) in a bad position while having zero effect on the people actually making the bad decisions14:58
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: re quim's post it might be an issue of that it is not immediately obviously on how to participate and contribute to the projects.. i mean, garage kinda just presents "these people work on this", but not direct methods for cooperating and contribution, compared to lets say, wikipedia, where you can contribute just by "edit" :P15:03
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Stskeepsand collaboration structure is not easy to make either15:06
* lcuk would like to store information trees in a wikiesq database and let end users sync to the latest15:08
johnxlcuk, that's called svn15:09
lcukyeah but "users" arent used to doing that (and git is better)15:10
lcukjohnx, we are used to it for code15:10
johnxs/svn/an scm/15:10
infobotjohnx meant: lcuk, that's called an scm15:10
johnxusers get nightly tarballs or autobuilt packages15:10
RST38hLooks like there is a problem you are missing15:11
lcukjohnx, i mean for data not code15:12
lcukie ui layouts and stuff15:12
RST38hThe problem is that the chances of seeing your contributions appear in an official Nokia software update are very slim15:12
johnxlcuk, nightly packages in an apt repository are still a good way to do data distribution15:13
RST38hNo technical feature (SVN, GIT, Wiki, whatever) will solve that. It is a matter of policy.15:13
qwerty12_N800RST38h, so true.15:13
lcukjohnx, my point wasn't "its not possible", its "its not usual"15:13
johnxright, but I was just answering lcuk :)15:14
johnxlcuk, nope, but if you want help setting it up, I might be able to offer some help15:15
lcuktheres other issues svn introduces which arent as apparant with wikiesq model (collisions occur on the one file the user edits live on the cloud vs a whole subset of files needing managing)15:15
lcuki will need something in the near future johnx, it relates to the entire profile of user/system data and between machines15:15
johnxaaaah, so a contribution system for non-programmers. I thought you were just talking about users as the consumers15:15
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lcuklong range :: once i start making new tiles and cells it should be possible for 50 users to contribute their own favorite layout for X class in Y context.  i want a way for ratings and voting to adapt the "default" interface to let the community improve the look and feel of apps easily without having to be technical developers15:18
lcuksince an interface file is just a small thing that says show this data here using this style its entirely feasible for the technical app to simply present the data as expected15:20
johnxhave users submit to a wiki and scrape it off?15:21
lcukwell thats the simplest15:21
lcukbut when a user connects after being offline for a week theres 100 files changed, he doesnt want to manage the collisions15:22
lcukand he doesnt want his personal decisions overwritten either15:22
johnxright, so scrape off a wiki and into a package15:22
johnxthere's already a unix-y solution to that: files in /home/$USER/.liqtiles are searched first, then /usr/share/liqtiles15:23
lcukand the meaning of wiki in this context is wiki == generational database == git == svn15:23
lcukyes ive got functions to enumerate multiple folders like that15:23
lcukbut theres other issues as well15:23
johnxright, but it might be easier to have a backend process automatically scrape a wiki and generate a package then to make an easy frontend to svn15:23
lcukyeah 100% agree15:24
lcukit could simply be the server process itself that supplies a dataset based on the connected client15:24
johnxhmm? probably being thick, but I didn't follow that last bit15:25
lcukive got half a mind to put the code directly in liqbase to test and have my n810 clients connect to the x41 server15:25
lcukok, for the server process to use libliqbase :)15:26
lcukcos that already knows the layouts and structures required and can extract the required metadata out of the media files15:26
johnxI suppose...15:27
lcukheh, i have to get away from calling everything liqbase, im already writing simple little apps which just open up and run and close again :)15:28
johnxso liq on the client, will just connect to the server and pull layouts down to $HOME/.liq or whatever15:29
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lcukbasically thats the idea15:29
johnxI kind of like the idea of updated packages better...15:34
RST38hliqsheet ? mmm15:34
lcukim not licking any shit15:34
RST38hlcuk: BTW, have you seen Nokia's paint app for the S60e5?15:35
lcukno, but i bet it has many things more than my simple app :)  (mind you, drawing in the sand does as well)15:36
RST38hnot really :)15:36
lcuklemme see15:36
RST38hBut I thought you can steal the overall UI15:36
lcuki have my design for the ui :)15:37
RST38hlcuk: Screenshots? =)15:37
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lcukwhats wrong with the current layout?  but theres other things ( pupnik's corner nodes look amazing and scale well )15:38
RST38hThe last version I have seen had controls at a fixed spot and they obscured too much of the canvas15:39
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lcuktechnically thats what the fullscreen button should be for :)15:43
lcukthe UI presented is fine, but if you want it to go away you press fullscreen, sorted15:44
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pupnik_lcuk: wut? implemented? you them? wut?15:45
RST38hyou can't use it if you turn it off completely, can you?15:45
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pupnik_some kind of quick way to pick brush and color/shade is essential to drawing and staying in right-brain mode15:46
* Gadgetoid envies this channel, OpenPandora is so... dead15:46
pupnik_navigating menus, reading text kicks one into leftbrain mode15:47
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lcuksince liqsketch isnt even a bitmap drawing prog its not really important ;)15:47
pupnik_we have actual devices Gadgetoid15:47
GadgetoidYeah pupnik_, I hear ya there!15:47
lcukRST38h, on a device this small its always compromise15:47
pupnik_that's what my girlfriend said!15:48
lcukyou are a dev, come up with a usable ui and ill implement it15:48
RST38hlcuk: And Nokia handles it pretty well with its small icon bars overlaid onto the screen (see their Touch Paint and also the Media Bar in S60e5)15:48
RST38hHiding UI completely also work and is simpler but it is somewhat more cumbersome to the user15:48
johnxGadgetoid, check pandoradev on efnet as well15:49
lcukRST38h, how are those any different to mine really?15:49
lcuki have 640*480 usable drawing space15:49
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RST38hi.e. 160x480 (20% of the screen space) is lost15:50
RST38hYou can reduce that to 5%15:50
Stskeepsjohnx: <- hildon crash15:51
RST38hAnd even less if you make icons simple and transparent15:51
Stskeepsjohnx: there seems to be stack corruption15:51
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johnxeep O_o15:52
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Stskeeps(proxy goes from being real to 0x0)15:52
johnxyeah, I've been playing with it a bit15:52
Stskeepsi just wonder if it's a toolchain thing or something else :P15:53
lcukRST38h, but then i have to click twice to change things15:55
RST38hlcuk: No, why?15:56
johnxStskeeps, that does narrow it down. I'll try building on native arm just for fun. think it's in hildon-desktop?15:56
lcukonce to open the menu another to click the item15:56
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RST38hlcuk: oh, no15:56
wazdokay, yesterday's question is stil here15:56
wazdCan I sue ISP for it's sexual orientation?15:57
Stskeepsjohnx: not sure yet but its either or glib or gtk else..15:57
lcukoh, yes, look at the color palette on your example app - you have to click to change color15:57
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RST38hlcuk: The strip of icons is always at the screen (unless you hide it with FullScreen like you do now)15:57
Stskeepswazd: maybe in russia..15:57
RST38hwazd: your ISP has certain preferences?15:57
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johnxStskeeps, ah, but I didn't upgrade gtk/glib :)15:57
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, but me neither, it should be the one from repo15:57
lcukclick once brings up the color select, then change the color with another click and probably a third to accept that selection15:57
wazdRST38h: my ISP is definetely not the straight one15:57
RST38hlcuk: But the icons are rrrrreally simple (single color, transparent background)15:58
RST38hlcuk: and they are only 40x40 each, arranged in a slim strip15:58
johnxah, well I'll build hildon-desktop natively and see what happens15:58
Stskeepsjohnx: k, from apt-source i presume?15:58
lcuki dont care how really simple they are, its wasteful to have to click 3 times to change a color15:58
lcukdeluxe paint had it right :)15:58
johnxStskeeps, that was the idea15:59
RST38hlcuk: for changing colors you can still have a palette like you do now, just small and having a button-like frame15:59
wazdBubbles on Mer wallpaper will look silly15:59
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lcukbut these kinds of conversations are why i want multiple uis for an app :)15:59
lcukyou should be able to have the interface as you expect15:59
lcukwhatever my religion :)15:59
RST38hwazd: dump it! tell 'em you do not love 'em any more16:00
RST38hlcuk: just one good one will be better16:00
wazdwhat icons are you discussing?16:01
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wazdRTS38h: the worst thing is that it's the only ISP in here16:01
RST38hwazd: liqbase UI16:02
lcukRST38h, we will never ever get a single glorious perfect ui which everyone will be happy with - its like football and religion and anything, you will have your predefined expectations and would be best to allow the dev to write features and let the UI departments supply the layout16:03
RST38hwazd: I insist on having an icon strip similar to the 5800 media bar. Lcuk just wants to have a 160x480 bar with icons at the right, like the old MS Paint or Designer+16:03
RST38hwazd: What district? And can't you just switch to Stream?16:04
wazdRST38h: damn center of Moscow(16:04
wazdRST38h: Stream works here even worse, thanks to WW2 landlines16:05
RST38hwazd: Oh yes16:05
RST38hwazd: What about fixed WiMax?16:05
wazdRST38h: doesn't work near my home for now16:05
lcuktechnically RST38h that colorbar could give us both what we want, if i want a big palette that works live with a single click the palette icon could be bigger and live, if you want click to select and smaller that should also work16:06
wazdRST38h: can you show a screenshot with 5800 mediabar? I'm not very familliar with that device16:07
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pupnik_hi like it wazd16:07
wazdlcuk: you want to change icon's colors?16:07
lcukbut why is space wasted with a close button? dont these devices have a hardware back button?16:07
lcukno wazd16:07
RST38hlcuk: Exactly16:07
lcukbut the app works the same, its all a matter of ui layout16:07
lcukand i have my preferences and you have yours16:08
RST38hwazd: (but with transparent icons)16:08
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RST38hlcuk: I doubt you can make such drastic UI changes with settings...although it all depends on what these settings are, if they are a script...16:09
wazdin fact Iike hildon concept16:09
lcukno, they are part UI layout (Ive sketched hundreds of alternative layouts for all sorts of apps)16:10
wazd1 hardware button to get rid of UI from the screen16:10
lcukwazd, hildon didnt invent it - its been available in lots of places for a long long time16:10
wazdlcuk: whatever :)16:11
lcuk(f11 on browser windows)16:11
lcukhardware button to get rid of ui16:11
lcukdeluxepaint had similar and im sure lots of apps do as well16:11
wazdlcuk: but it was first on mobile I think16:11
LinuxCodedid somebody mention deluxepaint ?16:12
lcukhuh? laptops were around long before16:12
wazdno, I don't mean standalone app16:12
* LinuxCode reminisces in old AMiga times16:12
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wazdI mean whole OS UI16:12
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lcukwazd, that its a good feature isnt disputed, but its not specifically hildon16:13
wazdlcuk: can you show what do you want to do with UI?16:13
RST38hwazd: the hide-all-ui model isn't going to be good if you use UI often, like in a sketching app16:13
lcuki thought i had already started to wazd16:15
wazdRST38h: Hildon doesn't hide all UI16:15
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RST38hwazd: !16:15
wazdah, I thought you came up with something new)16:16
lcukno im all done now, the well is dry nothing at all left in me *rolleyes*16:17
wazdWell, for sketch app it's the best layout probably16:17
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lcukits certainly simple and effective and it passes the 6year old test :)16:18
lcukand the 85year old one16:18
wazdall graphics editors uses pretty much same scheme16:18
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Meiz_n810Stskeeps: segfault problem fixed?16:20
* Meiz_n810 is dist-upgrading his mer installation...16:20
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* Meiz_n810 boots to Mer16:21
StskeepsMeiz_n810: no16:22
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wazd < browser speed, Atom vs OMAP316:34
johnxthat's so far from scientific...16:37
lcukin the rx-51 spec is there a accelerometer ?16:38
johnxwell, there's one enabled in nokia's kernel config16:39
lcukthats enough16:39
RST38hwazd: none of these guys (mosnet) have wiring at your home?16:40
wazdRST38h: nope, we have only one(16:40
wazd - hope pandora guys didn't take that seriously :)16:41
wazdPandora need not touchscreen oriented UI16:42
RST38hit will use direct mindmelt interface16:43
wazdRST38h: that's better :)16:43
lcukwazd, the omap is using lower res ;)16:43
lcukits not like for like16:43
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lcukofftopic: windows 2000 is there a msconfig type thing?16:44
johnxwazd, neat idea, but I think that you'll definitely need to get the community in on that design as the pandora guys do not have the manpower to do their own GUI I think...16:44
qwerty12_N800lcuk, maybe sysinternals autoruns (freeware)16:44
lcukits a craptop with a floppy, no cd rom no wireless or usb16:45
Stskeepsi'm thinking.. is there really other device communities where marketing, UI, kernel&hw, userland coders, etc, discuss for pages and pages of posts on their community websites?16:45
qwerty12_N800lcuk, Think it's small enough to fit on a floppy...16:45
johnxStskeeps, not even on the pandora :)16:45
lcukthere is exactly one floppy drive in this house (found this morning)16:46
lcukStskeeps, some do more than just talk, my fingers are aching from what im trying to achieve :)16:46
wazdlcuk: I think it should be in 2K since it is in XP16:47
wazdctrl+r - msconfig16:47
lcukno, its not, but thats ok16:47
qwerty12_N800regedt32 ;)16:48
lcukits ok its sorting itself out, its just a really ancient toshiba jake seems to have attachd himself onto was taking forever loading stuff it doesnt need16:49
johnxStskeeps, actually, do you mean "do the users discuss?" or "do the people who made the device participate?"16:50
wazdPandora needs UI like PSP or something, analog stick oriented16:52
wazdcause I don't know how to use touchscreen with clamshel formfactor16:52
johnxright, and someone needs to cook that up, but I'm betting it's not the pandora devs who will make it :)16:53
pupnik_they have a simple game-selector thing that runs on boot, as an alternative to a full os, afaik16:53
johnxactually touchscreen in a "small laptop" form factor with a stylus isn't that bad16:53
Stskeepsjohnx: latter16:54
RST38hwazd: pandora needs hardware to be released and shipped to people who ordered it16:55
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johnxhmm, then "not that I know of." At least not on any big forums16:55
wazdRST38h: dreams dreams :)16:55
RST38hwazd: As to UI, it has got a directional pad, so that should not be a problem16:55
RST38hA simple menu will do16:55
johnxthe company that made the zipit1 and 2 communicated pretty well, but that was usually via private mail16:56
johnxoooh, batteries arrived for the pandora :)16:57
johnx(not to me, but to the people putting them together)16:58
Stskeepsrefurbished sony batteries/the ones that exploded?16:58
johnxactually, they're custom batteries that are the size of the whole bottom of the pandora. runs an omap3 at full tilt for ~8 hours16:59
RST38hPandora vs. Optimus Maximus: FIGHT!16:59
johnxRST38h, well, the pandora will have a better keyboard...16:59
pupnik_better than n810?17:00
RST38hjohnx: Will it have more pixels though?17:00
johnxpupnik_, nah, probably not. more of a joke on the optimus maximum17:00
* pupnik_ does the 4000 mAh dance17:00
RST38hEnergizer Bunny?17:01
wazdwhoa, pandora will have a car battery?)17:01
johnxRST38h, "the optimus maximus features crisp lettuce and tender chicken, but the pandora included refried beans and zesty cheese sauce"17:01
johnxwazd, yup. comes in a backpack. :P17:02
pupnik_if you ever do put a car battery in a backpack, make sure you have a sealed enclosure17:02
pupnik_i have pics of what results if you don't17:02
RST38hpupnik: gel-based batteries are sealed, they don't leak17:02
johnxpupnik_, so that the gas can accumulate? I think you want some vents ....17:02
wazdI wonder how 1300 mAh battery can power n800 for 6 hours and 4000 mAh battery can power Panda for only 10 hours then17:03
pupnik_sorry sealed from leakage, not air17:03
johnxRST38h, car batteries generally aren't "gel cells"17:03
pupnik_i.e. a bucket17:03
RST38hjohnx: The one I had in a Camry certainly was17:03
johnxwazd, turn your screen to full bright, CPU at 100% and wifi downloading something. you won't see 6 hours then17:03
johnxRST38h, from the factory? or because you spent a lot of money on an expensive battery?17:03
pupnik_wazd: also more ram = more drain, plus they're being conservative17:04
RST38hjohnx: (and yes, I have seen the insides, after it exploded)17:04
pupnik_why did your battery splode?17:04
RST38hjohnx: It wasn't the first battery, yes.17:04
RST38hpupnik: A short.17:04
RST38hpupnik: Have been scrapping gel for three hours afterwards17:04
johnxso did you switch back to wet cells?17:05
wazdjohnx: Panda will do 10 hours on that load?)17:05
RST38hjohnx: No, I have put a bigger battery! =)17:05
johnxwazd, 8 :) but yes, they did a stress test17:05
johnxRST38h, you're doing it all wrong. :P You want the lightest battery that can start your car17:06
RST38hjohnx: Are wet cells better somehow?17:06
Stskeepsjohnx: how's h-d baking?17:06
jaskathey need to make handheld-usable radioisotope thermal generators17:06
RST38hjohnx: well, I am not a car guy. If it runs and does not cause me problems, I am happy.17:06
jaskaso i can keep them at 100% load for 40 years at a time or so17:06
johnxRST38h, yeah they don't cost a fortune :)17:06
johnxStskeeps, just died as you mentioned it17:06
Stskeepsschroedingers h-d17:07
RST38hjohnx: cost me something like $50, was it expensive?17:07
johnxStskeeps, died in the gtk-doc part of the build17:07
johnxRST38h, nah, not that expensive, but I'd be leary of a gel cell that cheap. :) they tend to explode :D17:08
Stskeepsjohnx: define died?17:08
johnxStskeeps, nevermind...forgot to enable swap17:08
johnx<- fails it17:09
RST38hjohnx: First time I hear this.17:09
johnxRST38h, just kidding about that, but that does strike me as a cheap gel cell :)17:09
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Stskeepsjohnx: i'm gonna build a new hildon-desktop-env btw17:09
RST38hjohnx: I was actually surprised that I couldn't buy a gel battery in Moscow17:09
johnxRST38h, most of "the good ones" (dunno what makes them good) were upwards of $150 IIRC (been a while since I was a car guy :) )17:10
Stskeeps(i push to lp:~mer-committers/m-r/hildon-desktop-env)17:10
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johnxStskeeps, ok, if I change anything I'll push there from now on17:10
Stskeeps770 didn't do thumb did it?17:12
johnxthe t in armv5te is thumb I believe17:12
johnxI think t is one of the important requirements for EABI17:12
Stskeepsdoes your zaurus do thumb? :P17:13
johnxyes, it's armv5te :)17:13
johnxyup, Features: swp half thumb fastmult edsp iwmmxt17:14
RST38h-t is for thumb but EABI does not require it afaik17:15
johnxRST38h, I've heard about there being some differences between ARM's EABI standard and the EABI implementation for linux. But currently EABI in linux requires an armv4t or later, with the armv4 (strongarm) being OABI17:16
RST38hjohnx: Given that Thumb is disabled unless you specifically enable it, I find it strange17:17
RST38hi.e. you have to TELL gcc use thumb17:17
johnxRST38h, I go by what I see here:
johnxsee "Thumb interworking suggests armv4t"17:18
johnxit is entirely possible that's incorrect or I'm misinterpreting it. in which case clarification would be nice :)17:19
RST38hjohnx: Ah you mean this17:20
johnx"The EABI includes thumb interworking"17:20
RST38hjohnx: thumb interworking is an optional EABI feature that lets you mix ARM and THUMB code in the same program17:20
RST38hjohnx: If you do not have THUMB in your CPU, you can still use the same ABI but you obviously should disable thumb interworking when compiling code17:21
RST38h(in fact, gcc has it disabled by default :))17:21
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johnxfair enough. I guess my thinking is from the perspective of the user of a binary distro on ARM devices: Becuase debian/ubuntu/(probably fedora) are compiled with thumb interworking enabled, they won't run on an armv4l17:22
johnxa fact which saddens me :/17:22
RST38hBut it is really not a given fact that your app will work faster in Thumb mode17:24
RST38hSometimes it will, depending on how complex your code is17:24
johnxthe more complex the code = the more it helps be reducing contention for CPU cache, right?17:25
johnxwell, I like that theory :P :)17:25
RST38hcode cache contention depends on two things only: your binary size (MIPS sucks at that btw) and the number of far jumps you are making17:26
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johnxbut doesn't thumb produce smaller binary size?17:26
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RST38hThumb helps that by using 16bit instructions17:27
RST38hAlso, if you have got 16bit data bus, Thumb code will run better over it17:28
lcukbut non thumb code can do a lot more per op17:28
trenkalcuk: why?17:28
RST38hBUT you lose: conditional execution (read: more jumps), free shifts, large constants usage17:29
Stskeepsjohnx: did you see wazd's artwork btw?17:29
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RST38hlcuk: it can't17:29
lcukbecause a full 32bit opcode can do multiple step operations in one go because they are encoded within17:29
johnxStskeeps, that background? looks great doesn't it? :D17:29
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, and logo17:29
Stskeepsi put the background along with titan theme in17:29
lcuksure it can, go read on the full things which can be done with a single 32bit opcode17:29
RST38hThumb has less functionality per opcode, so if you are coding in assembly, you can get better mileage out of 32bit ARm usually17:29
lcukyeah rst, but standard compilers cannot easily use the full functionality well17:30
johnxRST38h, "...but non thumb code ..."17:30
RST38hjohnx: ?17:30
johnxRST38h, I think you guys are agreeing :)17:30
lcukjohnx, 32bit opcode can do more than 16bit thumb.    "non thumb code" == 32bit mode17:31
RST38hlcuk: 100% correct17:31
johnxlcuk, right, got that. :)17:31
johnxStskeeps, native build dies too17:31
Stskeepsjohnx: huh17:32
RST38hBTW, Nintendo recommends 32bit ARM when running code from SRAM but 16bit thumb when running code from 16bit cartridge ROM17:32
Stskeepsjohnx: native build dies on tablet too?!17:32
johnxStskeeps, the build worked. hildon-desktop dies17:32
johnxStskeeps, are you seeing a weird gconf error?17:32
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, i saw that at one point, but when running as root that didn't show17:32
RST38hjohnx: Oh, I forgot one more thing:17:33
RST38hjohnx: Reading SDRAM sequentially is like 1 clock per read but latching a new address (when jumping for example) is 8 clocks or so17:34
Stskeepsjohnx: so what big changes have we made since hildon-desktop compile? gconf?17:34
RST38hso in RISC architectures conditional execution often wins over short jumps17:34
johnxStskeeps, that seems to be the biggest one, doesn't it?17:34
Stskeepsjohnx: lemme just grab the .deb for the old version17:34
Stskeepsjohnx: or not, hm17:35
* Stskeeps notes his backup rotation doesn't work17:36
Stskeepsor at least not visibly17:36
Stskeeps(backup works, but not rotation)17:36
gladiachas someone a simple example for writing a deb file for maemo17:36
johnxgladiac, there's some info here:
johnxand I'd be happy to try and answer questions if you have any17:39
johnxemphasis on *try* :)17:39
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johnxStskeeps, any thoughts on whether it might be in maemo-launcher?17:40
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Stskeepsjohnx: no, i gdb'ed hildon-desktop.launch17:41
gladiacI'm a rpm user, so I have to learn how things work with deb now17:41
Stskeepsand left maemo-launcher out of the picture17:41
Stskeepsjohnx: what gconf version do we have?17:41
disqanybody have experience with DBusGProxy stuff? trying to listen for a signal, couldn't get it to work17:47
Stskeepsjohnx: maemo glib.. hmm: debian/patches/01-dbus-gproxy-crash-fix.patch: Refresh.17:48
Stskeepsdbus glib that is17:48
johnxso odd that it worked before...17:49
Stskeepslooks like we safely can build libdbus-glib17:50
Stskeepsit's up to date17:50
wjtdisq: could you pastebin your code?17:50
johnxStskeeps, want me to do a build?17:50
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Stskeepsjohnx: i'm already going at it17:51
johnxah, and I still have to make zenity do the right thing17:52
disqwjt: details_received actually returns an array btw.17:53
wjtdisq: what goes wrong?17:53
disqwjt: callback is not called17:54
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disqwent looking for some examples, couldn't come up with any except the one in the maemo sdk ref17:56
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disqkmplayer sets up a filter to listen for signals but it's too costly for just one signal17:56
wjtdisq: so, you're adding the signal with the wrong type, and wondering why it doesn't work? :)17:56
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disqwjt: how am i supposed to add DBus.Array type as a gtype? GTYPE_POINTER etc fails17:57
wjtdisq: what's it an array of?17:58
disqa key/value dict.17:59
wjtis it a(sv), a{sv}, what?18:00
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disqi don't have the xml or the source, i'm going by dbus-monitor output. (gah pastebin so slow, hang on)18:01
wjtyou can call Introspect on the object and get the XML18:01
disqI tried not adding the signal first, just connecting to it. got a warning.18:03
disqI think if introspect would work I wouldn't get the warning but not sure18:03
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wjtintrospection isn't synchronous18:04
wjtbut i can't figure out how you're supposed to know when it's happened18:06
wjtAnyway. If it's an a(xy) (that is, a list of two-element structs) you can use dbus_g_type_get_collection ("GPtrArray", dbus_g_type_get_struct ("GValueArray", G_TYPE_x, G_TYPE_y, G_TYPE_INVALID));18:07
wjtIf it's an a{xy} (that is, a dict mapping x to y) you use dbus_g_type_get_map ("GHashTable", G_TYPE_x, G_TYPE_y);18:08
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disqah, nice18:11
disqthanks :)18:11
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Stskeepsjohnx: building new dbus-glib18:13
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johnxpushed zenity :)18:14
Stskeepsi just really hope that fixes it18:14
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disqwjt: worked, thanks a lot (it was a hash table)18:15
* johnx crosses his fingers18:15
disq(well, turned out to be I mean)18:15
wjtdisq: great!18:16
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wjtdisq: if you're feeling particularly adventurous you could run the introspect XML though telepathy-glib's binding generator to get nice wrappers around this stuff18:17
disqI'm afraid I never feel adventurous when it comes to dbus :)18:17
wjtWhenever I have to do this directly I have to go read some example code to figure out how to drive dbus_g_type_get_* :)18:17
disq(introspect returned empty string btw, maybe I couldn't call it properly)18:18
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disqDBUS_TYPE_G_STRING_STRING_HASHTABLE that was what i was looking for btw. it's in dbus-glib.h and i totally missed it18:20
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Stskeepsjohnx: it just really wonders me it first happened when we compiled with new headers.. maybe it's cos gconf2 is dbus based now18:21
johnxwell, I assume we'll know once that build finishes18:24
Stskeepsi honestly think there's material enough to several research papers on open source projects in all the threads and discussions there's been on iTT..18:25
johnxah! I just remembered a project I was thinking of: Neuros has been doing open source for a while and they actually have a pretty active community forum I believe18:26
johnxthey also have bounties out for lots of projects18:27
Stskeepsthat's true18:27
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johnxalso, thecus (makes ARM based NAS boxes) has been very friendly with the debian-arm guys, hence most of the debian-arm build boxes being thecus N2100s (or they were at some point)18:28
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* Stskeeps is getting really tired of autotools18:30
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Stskeepsjohnx: can you grab the updated dbus-glib? built them manually18:38
Stskeepsand test if it works18:39
johnxsure, is it in the repo or somewhere else?18:39
* Stskeeps wonders if nokia & community are doing soul searching or something..18:40
johnxhmm? why do you say that?18:41
Stskeepsjust pondering on the intensity of the threads the last couple of days18:41
johnxah, I've been purposely avoiding them18:41
Stskeepshehe, i'm not going to participate either, since i actually do something :P18:42
johnxhalf the community is dying for an omap3 and the other half is dying for updates to the n8x018:42
mavhcand one guy has cancer18:42
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qwerty12lardman, no. I've seen the build-depends on the package, thank you very much :P18:43
wjtdisq: that's not a GType18:44
wjtdisq: dbus_g_proxy_add_signal takes gtypes18:45
Stskeepsjohnx: we should so make first-boot-wizard and hildon-desktop-env beerware..18:46
Stskeepsjust imagine summit 09 then ;)18:47
*** b0unc3 has quit IRC18:47 sounds like a good idea actually18:47
pupnik_when i was 17....18:47
pupnik_i had a very good beer...18:47
johnxpupnik_, when I was 16 I started on horrible beer. Wasn't until I tried Japanese beer than I could stomach more than a bit at a time18:47
lardman|homeqwerty12: you can get rid of almost all of those18:47
qwerty12lardman|home, sounds good... Does it need vfp?18:48
pupnik_"It Was a Very Good Year" is a song composed by Ervin Drake in 1961 and subsequently made famous by Frank Sinatra.
lardman|homeqwerty12: doens't need it, but ideally yes18:48
Stskeepsjohnx: on the other hand, sake is something of the worst i've ever tasted in my life :P18:49
qwerty12lardman|home, cool, it's no problem, just wondering...18:49
johnxStskeeps, try compari. ten times worse than sake.18:49
Stskeepsand i've had my share of cheap vodkas18:49
johnxand I've had my share of cheap everclear18:49
qwerty12lardman|home, which version? 1:2.1.73-13, octave2.1, octave3.0 or octave3.1?18:50
lardman|homeqwerty12:, of this lot you can remove blas, libglpk0, libhdf5*, liblapack3gf, libpcre3, libqhull5, libsuitesparse-3.1.0, libunwind718:50
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lardman|homebasically the only deps you need to install are ncurses and readline18:50
johnxStskeeps, first test with the mer libdbus-glib-1-2 installed, hildon-desktop dies the same way18:50
lardman|homethose other bits are accelerators, but not necessary in the first instance18:50
Stskeepsjohnx: bollocks18:50
johnxI'm doing an apt-get upgrade just for fun18:50
b-manit looks like my ubuntu jaunty install is starting to die, first the keyboard, then gnome-pannel, then naiutills, now it is mostly booting into a wallpaper with metacity. :p Time to start the fun 6+ hour install prosess all over again :)18:51
johnxbut holding hildon-desktop-env18:51
* lardman|home is not sure about pcre3, but certainly didn't install it himself18:51
Stskeepsb-man: wonder why we do tar.gz's? :P18:51
Stskeepsjohnx: is gconfd really supposed to be run as a user?18:52
johnxit is in desktop linux, /me confirms18:52
johnxyes, user18:52
johnxfrom /etc/X11/Xsesion.d/gconf or similar (depends on distro)18:52
lardman|homeqwerty12: hmm, might need f2c as well though to compile it...18:54
lardman|homeqwerty12: I can't remember and I can't seem to find the build dir either, annoying that18:54
qwerty12I guess I'll find out :)18:54
lardman|homewell give me a shout if you have troubles and I'll try to remember/compile it myself and send you the control file so you can submit it18:55
qwerty12Sure, I'll leave it up to you to test as I don't know the first thing about octave ;)18:55
Stskeepsjohnx: try remove all applets from the hildon statusbar (confs) and see if that helps18:55
johnxremoved adv backlight18:55
lardman|homeqwerty12: well type "octave" on the command line and if it doesn't crash you're all good18:55
johnxwill remove the CPU applet once apt-get upgrade is complete18:55
qwerty12lardman|home, sounds foolproof :)18:56
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qwerty12lardman|home, you sure it doesn't need the gfortran package?18:56
lardman|homenot if you use f2c18:57
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lardman|homeor at least I don't think so, if you use f2c ;)18:57
lardman|homeah, I'll compile it, hang on a bit18:58
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lardman|homeI should have f2c installed already18:58
lardman|home~lart lardman for losing his octave build dir18:58
* infobot blasts lardman to oblivion with a kamehameha wave for losing his octave build dir18:58
b1ackdeathdose the home tools program have a config file that i can change so i can use it to monitor my ip from my usb lan adapter?18:59
qwerty12It's python, edit it yourself. And no, I do not know what file to edit.19:00
lardman|homeqwerty12: I'll give 3.1 a go, might as well go as new as possible :)19:00
qwerty12lardman|home, cool :)19:00
* lardman|home thinks that was what he compiled last time19:00
qwerty12lardman|home, if you compiled octave3.0_3.0.1-6lenny1.dsc, then I'm pretty sure that you didn't try to package it...19:01
lardman|homeno, it didn't have lenny in the name19:02
lardman|homewhat's the problem?19:02
qwerty12I have a feeling that you compiled one of the old ones19:02
qwerty12A lot of problems that suggest that it will need a lot more than just packages removed from the build depends.19:03
lardman|homewell it was about 3 months ag19:03
* Stskeeps ponders if stack protector works on arm19:04
lardman|homethey sure do like deps in Debian don't they!19:04
lardman|homehmm, would be good to get blas tuned for the hw19:05
lardman|homeor is that atlas, hmm?19:05
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lcukevening lardman|home \o19:10
qwerty12lardman|home, got f2c installed but octave fails to see if even if I ./configure F77=f2c19:10
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lardman|homehey lcuk19:12
lardman|homehmm, needs slice too19:13
Stskeepsjohnx: how long are you planning to stay here today btw?19:13
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johnxI can stay up a little later if you want me to test things, but otherwise I'll probably go to bed soonish19:14
Stskeepsnah, it's fine, trying to build a fstack-protector version, but seems like our toolchain is one that doesn't have it working19:15
lcukjohnx, you never sleep anyway - you just go and rest in your borg cabinet19:15
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johnxI get different output with the different versions of hildon-desktop...19:15
Stskeepsyeah, points to some kind of stack / memory problem19:16
lardman|homeqwerty12: ok, I take it back, it was a pita to setup19:16
johnxlcuk, nah, I just photosynthesize in the light of CCFLs19:16
qwerty12lardman|home, I saw that :). Which is why I rm -rf'ed it before :)19:16
lardman|homeqwerty12: it needs slice, which needs some binary perl whatsit19:16
qwerty12Meh, I'm not against packaging it myself but I can't even get it to compile straight up then it can piss off19:17
johnxStskeeps, what changed in the new hildon-desktop? is it just a rebuild?19:17
lardman|homeqwerty12: I did get all the deps built and working a while back, but it must have been one of the older scratchbox installs (which has since been rm -rf'd)19:17
qwerty12heh :/19:17
lardman|homeI'll add it to my list of things to do, near the bottom19:17
Stskeepsjohnx: i had composite on before and now not (the one in repo)19:18
Stskeepsand ..19:18
Stskeepsno, that was it19:18
ciroipyo people19:18
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Stskeepsjohnx: only other possibility i could see was to upgrade glib19:23
* Stskeeps doesn't exactly understand why it's crashing :)19:27
* konttori likes how palm pre looks like:
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konttoribrowser looks really nice19:30
Stskeepshas to if it's a "WebOS" :P19:31
johnxStskeeps, do you know the last build that worked?19:31
johnxkonttori, played with the newer webkit builds on the n8x0?19:32
doc|homeis canola broken? It's not seeing audio files for me when I set it up to do so19:32
johnxdoc|home, do you have beta9 or beta10?19:33
doc|homejohnx: erm, no idea, one sec19:33
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Stskeepsjohnx: mer1019:33
doc|homejohnx: beta919:34
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johnxdoc|home, ok good start :)19:34
johnxStskeeps, yeah, have that working on my zaurus19:34
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doc|homejohnx: any idea what else it might be?19:35
johnxdoc|home, so you add the folder with your music in it, then click "update all", right?19:36
doc|homejohnx: two media cards, yep19:37
MeizirkkiUbuntus UME-team seems to be going to port many maemo-things too
StskeepsMeizirkki: think its old though19:41
Meizirkkithey haven't done much...19:41
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* Jaffa was wondering about UME/Moblin's email client19:43
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johnxweren't they going for hildonized claws or somesuch?19:44
Stskeepsi would go for hildonized claws.19:44
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johnxdunno how far they got though19:45
konttoriSo, are the new webkit versions much better then?19:45
konttorishould I install the browser replacement or tear?19:45
johnxkonttori, try both, but I think the browser replacement version takes up less space19:45
Meizirkkii prefer tear (using webkit-eal)19:47
doc|homeanyone got any other suggestions for media players? I don't like kagu all that much19:47
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* doc|home looks19:47
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konttoriwhere are the latest packages?19:49
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lardman|homewhat version of GTK+ do we use?19:55
Stskeeps2.12 i think19:55
Stskeepsor at least, fremantle does19:55
lardman|homehmm, I thought so19:55
Stskeepsdiablo is 2.119:55
lardman|homehmm, I'll have to look for a different call then (only added in 2.14)19:55
Meizirkkikonttori, yes19:56
lardman|homeStskeeps: thanks19:57
Meizirkkikonttori: but bundyos webkit does not render correctly sometimes, so i have symlink from the "default browser webkit" libraries...19:57
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lardman|homedo gtk dialogs come with a built-in vbox?20:01
lardman|homeok, how does one add something to one may I ask?20:02
lardman|homethe dialog that is20:02
AstralStorma standard GtkWindow?20:02
AstralStormor what do you want to add to?20:02
lardman|homeI want to add some widgets to one20:03
AstralStormlet me check20:03
lardman|homeI was just looking at this code here:
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wjtLook at GtkDialog in devhelp20:03
wjtthe first member is a vbox20:03
AstralStormit does have a vbox20:03
wjtvbox is a GtkVBox - the main part of the dialog box.20:04
wjtaction_area is a GtkHButtonBox packed below the dividing GtkHSeparator in the dialog. It is treated exactly the same as any other GtkHButtonBox.20:04
AstralStormI thought you meant something other20:04
lardman|homeAstralStorm, wjt: thanks20:04
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lardman|homewjt: can I install an older version of the gtk+ devhelp files?20:05
lardman|homeam on 2.12.9 atm, but could do with 2.10.x20:05
wjtYou probably can, but new stuff should have Since: annotations so you can tell whether it'll exist in 2.1020:05
lardman|homeah, ok, good plan20:05
wjti think you could get a gtk 2.10 tarball, build the docs, and shove them into ~/.local/share...20:06
wjtbut then you'd have two hits for every Gtk symbol when you search in devhelp and on that path lies madness20:06
lardman|hometrue :)20:06
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johnxslow drive is slow :/20:19
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AstralStormand fast drives are fast20:19
AstralStormget a fast one20:19
AstralStormor just a bunch of flash chips ;P20:19
johnxwife has a slow external 1.8" USB drive. need to get music off of it20:20
johnxin this case a faster drive now wouldn't help :P20:20
AstralStormuse a hammer20:21
AstralStormthat should be quicker20:21
johnx"hur. I got your music out of duh drive."20:21
Stskeepsjohnx: i should technically be able to replicate this on x86 shouldn't i?20:22
Stskeepsi mean, we established it's not the toolchain20:22
johnxwell, it's worth a quick build I would think if you have an x86 test system lying around20:23
Stskeepsmm, chroot + xvfb20:23
johnxdid you ever try using hildon-desktop the way that diablo-sdk does?20:23
Stskeepsand i always build for x86 too :P20:23
Stskeepsinteresting, it does crash20:26
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Stskeepsyup, same place, too20:27
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Stskeepsi knew it would be a benefit to compile for x86 sometime too ;)20:29
Stskeepsbecause now i can run valgrind!20:31
AstralStormand see there are 1024+ errors?20:31
johnxor that all 4 of the test machines have bad RAM20:31
AstralStormmemtest86 should exclude that possibility20:31
AstralStormand then, the crash wouldn't be reproducible so easily20:32
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johnxAstralStorm, I know, just figure it would be just about our luck :)20:33
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disqgot an autobuilder problem, i have multiple dirs under "src" and libtool won't work probably because of that (no such file or directory)20:44
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* johnx sleeps20:56
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beachsurfinwhy would maemo use gnome + qt and not qt+kde?21:12
qwerty12_N800Maemo doesn't use gnome21:13
Stskeepsbeachsurfin: you probably mean gtk + qt21:13
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beachsurfini saw the gnome icon so i figured..21:20
beachsurfin"Maemo platform has been developed by Nokia in collaboration with many open source projects such as the Linux kernel, Debian, GNOME, and many more."21:21
beachsurfini see, it was made sure that maemo would work fine with these project21:22
beachsurfini suppose the kde connection is through qt21:23
Stskeepswhich in turn is made by trolltech, which is owned by nokia ;)21:23
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wazdStskeeps: so, should I change something in Mer's logo or it's fine now?)21:25
Stskeepswazd: what was the last url?21:26
Stskeepsi've been a bit absent today :) preparing for exam21:26
Stskeepsyeah, it's cool :)21:27
RST38hmoo all, again21:28
Stskeepswazd: i don't suppose you have a 1600x1200 version of it too?21:29
wazdI have 1920x1200 instead21:30
Stskeepsjust as good ;)21:30
wazd~poke GeneralAntilles21:35
* infobot cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind GeneralAntilles, pokes GeneralAntilles repeatedly, hilarity ensues.21:35
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`MaceStskeeps ?22:38
`Macewhen i get the chance some time this week. i'm going to work on putting together a dedicated box for you22:38
`Maceinstead of timeslicing it in esx ;)22:39
`Macei'll keep them both going so you can move your stuff over when you get the chance.. but after that i'm going to wipe the VM22:39
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Stskeeps`Mace: already - don't spend too much time on it22:44
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Shadow___Xhello everybody22:46
Shadow___Xhow do you access webhttrack22:47
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lcukStskeeps, if i got you the cleaned up version of liqbase what would you need to do to test it on your beagle? does it need recompilation and all that22:50
Stskeepslcuk: think i need to connect up my dvi screen really22:50
Stskeepsand get a proper OS on it22:50
lcukok, your work beagle22:50
Stskeepsyeah, my work beagle :P22:50
Stskeepsdon't own one privately22:51
lcukheh lol, what graphics are on it now?22:51
Stskeepsserial console..22:51
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lcukphew, thought you were gonna say something archaic like semaphore or something22:51
Stskeepsserial console is pretty far out, too ;)22:52
lcukaltair are gonna be worried your device will overtake them soon ;)22:52
lcukall that power and no real way to show it22:52
Stskeepsthat's funny..22:55
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lcukStskeeps, does it have the outputs for dvi?22:57
lcukor are they another solder job (or was that a one off out there thing for odd combinations)22:57
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Stskeepsit has hdmi22:58
lcukwhats with all the serial stuff then?    i dont think my computer even has a standard serial any more22:59
Stskeepscos you need to flash a kernel first, for instance :)22:59
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TheFatalcan any1 tell me the others operating system for the N810 ??23:06
Stskeepsgentoo, ubuntu, mer, nitdroid.. debian23:06
lcukwinmobile? no way, i thought it had the full desktop windows 95 experience23:07
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RST38hWell, WinMobile has!23:08
TheFatalbut there is a wikipedia page who say all o.s.23:08
TheFatalcan any1 know it ?23:08
* suihkulokki loaded to the browser before going back to the memory lane23:09
TheFatali search, but i can not find it... ¬¬23:09
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Stskeepsplenty of posts on other things :P23:11
Stskeepslcuk: what has caused me and johnx horrors for two days:
Stskeepsvery very portable hack23:13
Stskeeps(it modifies a stub)23:13
TheFatal sed 's/dbus_g_proxy_begin_call/dbus_g_proxy_begin_call_with_timeout/' |\         sed 's/g_free, /g_free, 120000, /' \         > hildon-background-manager.h23:13
Stskeepsand life just isn't that easy in dbus-glib 0.7823:14
lcukStskeeps, you and john have added that hack, or thats included and causing problems23:14
lcuksed is shell search replace thingy isnt it23:15
Stskeepsit should actually be _async_data_free instead23:15
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* Stskeeps wonders if he should be bothered opening a bug for that 23:17
lcukStskeeps, ok, i see its in the makefile - so thats a late added (and probably much overlooked) very very strange way to fix source23:19
Stskeepsyes, normally you fix the stub tool23:19
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Stskeepsand now it starts joyfully23:22
* RST38h has salvaged the sourcecode for his TI85 emulator23:24
RST38hanyone interested?23:24
Stskeepsi bought a TI83 plus recently.. and i have used it exactly once.23:25
RST38hTI85 is a different animal, it is Z80 based23:27
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TheFatalany1 test ubuntu mobile on n810 ?23:28
Stskeepswe have something better :P23:28
TheFatalbut only test it23:28
lcuki want a minimal super OS On my big tablet23:29
TheFatal[quote] we have something better :P [/quote] xD  maemo o debian ?23:29
* Stskeeps passes lcuk mer 23:29
* lcuk likes the idea of 39.8GB free ;)23:29
aquatixRST38h: interesting23:29
aquatixlcuk: whuh? what did i miss?23:30
lcukStskeeps, :) i know, i cant wait23:30
aquatixoh, your big tablet23:30
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lcukwell, i can23:30
aquatixi thought that was sarcasm23:30
lcukyeah aquatix23:30
aquatixyou have another tablet? heretic!23:30
lcukmy nokia found it daddy :)23:31
GeneralAntillesHehe, the EIPI interview comments finally devolved into ad hominem.23:31
RST38hlcuk: do they.... know?23:31
lcukdaddy stays at home wearing its slipper whilst the young nokia goes out into the big wide world :)23:31
aquatixGeneralAntilles: do they mention nazis yet?23:31
lcukof course not, its father and son23:31
GeneralAntillesaquatix, not yet.23:31
aquatixlcuk: did he have The Talk with his son yet?23:31
iskaja1any idea what i can usefull do with my old N77023:32
lcukyes, hes been told not to connect with any naked x86 devices23:32
aquatixlcuk: ah, good23:32
aquatixiskaja1: build it in a car?23:32
lcukiskaja1, send it me so i can get liqbase running on it23:32
aquatixor that23:32
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i think the 'napoleon dynamite' comparison is a whole new aspect to internet discussions23:32
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lcuki would love to *know* whether it could work nicely23:33
Stskeepsiskaja1: plenty of things23:33
iskaja1what shall it do in the car?23:33
Stskeepsiskaja1: nitdroid or mer is coming to it :P23:33
Proteousn770s should be locked away in a vault to ward of the WSOD23:34
infobotProteous meant: n770s should be locked away in a vault to ward off the WSOD23:34
aquatixProteous: and the 770's?23:35
GeneralAntillesaquatix, but maybe if I show them my swastisocks it'll speed things along. :roll:23:35
aquatixGeneralAntilles: okayyy...23:36
GeneralAntillesaquatix, what, don't see the resemblance? :P23:36
Stskeepswindows logo in monochrome or a swastika, who knows23:37
aquatixGeneralAntilles: it's a bit disturbing :)23:37
GeneralAntillesTheir logo, apparently, turns into a swastika on irregular socks.23:37
GeneralAntillesWhich is probably why I got 6 pairs for $2.99.23:37
RST38hGeneral: How cute!23:37
aquatixGeneralAntilles: `their' logo?23:38
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GeneralAntillesMeant to paste that in the parentheses.23:38
RST38hGeneral: You should brandish weaponry as well, just the socks won't do the job23:39
GeneralAntillesRST38h, I've got a K98 fairly close at hand, but that might be a little over the top. ;)23:40
RST38hjust the right thing23:40
lcukcontext would be better before posting in future gan ;)23:40
GeneralAntilleslcuk, do they not sell Columbia in the EU?23:41
RST38hThey do, but now, when you revealed the terrible truth, .DE is risking to have Columbia stuff outlawed23:41
lcukwouldnt know, socks are socks23:42
lcukill ask my mum if she knows (cos she still buys my socks)   *joking :|*23:42
lcukwhy does the new google favicon remind me of office 9723:43
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Shadow___Xhello everyone i am having issues setting up or trying to remove portmap23:44
Shadow___Xit keeps referring to 2 files23:45
Shadow___Xand S18portmap23:45
pcfedoes anybody know where xchat on maemo looks for SSl certs? (I use an IRC proxy over SSL that has it's own cert signed by my own CA, so I want to import that CA cert so that xchat finds it, the system wide cert import does not seem to be used by xchat)23:46
wazdGeneral: when would tuesday web-site meeting be?)23:46
Stskeepsthink xchat may have its own settings for this, but i seem to recall xchat is .. interesting, in that aspect23:46
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qwerty12_N800pcfe, I would assume in the same place it looks for them on a computer23:47
qwerty12_N800Maemo version does nothing special regarding certs23:47
GeneralAntillesI like how nobody can get away from Nokia in that community cohesion thread.23:48
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, you ruined it. :P23:48
Shadow___Xanyone of how to fix portmap23:48
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, i apologised *nervous laugh*23:48
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: yet there are coming good points up on how to actually do a community23:49
pcfeqwerty12_N800: OK, if it does notihing maemo specific then I'll just cat my CA cert to the end of /etc/pki/tls/certs/c23:49
lcukthe problem with the cohesion is that (a) nokia have said we will have fremantle.  Not that we will take part in its building, that they are doing it and it will be released23:49
Stskeepsit's difficult to contribute "to maemo" as maemo is 1000 different projects :P23:49
lcuki would love to get liqbase into a stable enough state to start offering little modules to interested parties23:49
GeneralAntilleslcuk, the discussion isn't about Nokia or any Nokia projects.23:50
lcukno, its about what we do whilst nokia works on their fremantle masterpiece23:50
Stskeepswhat does 'cohesion' mean anyway?23:50
lcuklets make the thread sticky23:50
RST38hit is about abandoning the developers community with Diablo and telling that Nokia does not really care about diablo any more23:51
Stskeepsi don't really blame them, though23:51
RST38hAnd the stuff Nokia cares about is outside of developers reach for now23:51
GeneralAntilleslcuk, Fremantle alphas will be here soon.23:51
lcukbut whats replaced it23:51
RST38hNo, they have a business strategy and that strategy is to sell more devices, newer devices23:51
lcukyes, and so will liqbase alphas23:51
RST38hUnfortunately, outside development does not yet align with this strategy23:52
lcukill have a core widget that will run nice and touchably on this and next device, ill need to build apps just like nokia23:52
JaffaRST38h: And they know that a vibrant development community is part of that23:52
lcukbut the one thing im doing is here in the community23:52
JaffaRXsT38h: It does. Supporting devices with orders of magnitude less power doesn't align with releasing the best h/w and s/w they can23:53
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RST38hJaffa: Right now it does not, as evidenced by us all stuck with Diablo23:53
RST38hJaffa: If it did, Nokia would invest into maintaining some interest in Diablo until Fremantle is ready and maybe even releasing backported feature updates23:54
Stskeepsif nokia gets off their asses with some things, soon we are able to make our own images, both diablo and mer :P23:54
RST38hJaffa: This is what Microsoft is doing BTW23:54
Stskeepsthey haven't actually removed the stuff to support old HW, in source, honestly23:55
Stskeepsmostly it's about replacing some packages23:55
lcukno, but if the UI is being built with clutter you can be damned sure it wont be used23:56
Stskeepslcuk: window manager, hildon-desktop, and such, yes, but apps are still hildon23:56
Stskeepsand we -have- a fremantle diablo ui hildon-desktop23:56
lcukso it will flicker backwards and forwards between old style and new?23:56
RST38hI hope the original hildon desktop will still be around :)23:56
lcukscreen flicker - opengl context vs x11 standard23:57
Shadow___Xdpkg --configure -a does not fix the portmap issue23:57
lcukclutter can exist within a widget - i believe offscreen GTK rendering and shoving to an ogl surface isnt optimal23:57
wazdSorry to interupt you, but when the web-site meeting would be?) I'd like to participate :)23:58
Jaffawazd: 1400 UTC tomorrow, IIRC23:58
wazdJaffa: thanks a lot )23:58
lcukof course, if nokia dont use clutter and stick with gtk for now (as yerga shows is possible with the touchable gtk widgets) that will be different again23:59
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lcukless interuption to existing apps and fits with an evolution rather than a revolution23:59
* Jaffa would check, but webkit-eal's crashed replying to the "fun" EIPI blog post, trying to point out the nature of a representative democracy23:59

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