IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-12-28

jakemaheudammit, qwerty12_N80000:00
jakemaheuthe user gets to partition the card00:00
jakemaheubut other than that, yeah00:00
qwerty12_N800hehe :P00:00
jakemaheuyou get first dibs00:00
jakemaheui'm just gonna test it now00:00
jakemaheudo you have an n800?00:00
qwerty12_N800i've already followed your guide and partitioned my card :)00:00
jakemaheuyou can try the script then00:01
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qwerty12_N800it's just sitting there atm, i need a uclibc built against 2.6.28 headers00:01
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Vulcaniswhat is everyone's obsession with Android?00:04
VulcanisIt can't do much, as far as I can tell00:04
jakemaheuit's orgasmic00:04
Vulcanisexcept for the snappy browser00:04
jakemaheuly smooth00:04
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qwerty12_N800it's just something fresh to use after being in Maemo00:05
jakemaheuit's a nice ui, too00:05
jakemaheuand for being an early version, pretty good00:05
jakemaheuscript is now extracting00:06
jakemaheuto the newly created and /mnt mounted partition00:06
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jakemaheuvulcanis likes xkcd00:06
b-mani think just about enything can run on our tablets i some way or another...00:10
b-manedit; in -damn keyboard00:11
b-manso, what do you think would be cool to see on our tablets that we don't allrety have?00:13
woglindedont know00:14
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woglindeI think I have seen all cool stuff00:14
woglindea car driving game00:14
qwerty12_N800a interactive guide using open gl es that shows how to grow ganja00:15
b-manhardware rendered OpenGL - but that's not possible00:15
woglindedosemu runs00:16
b-manthat's dosbox00:16
woglindeyeah and where is the problem?00:16
b-mandosbox is a little limited to me...00:17
b-mangimp - but that's way too large00:19
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b-maneasy debian could fix that...00:20
* alterego creates a release branch :)00:20
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b-manan application manager that alows you to install multiple apps simotaneusly - like synaptic...00:22
qwerty12_N800alterego, release to extras-devel quick! ve must knock python off a high ranking spot :p00:22
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qwerty12_N800b-man, sure! apt-get install00:23
b-manoh yah - duh, stupid me :p00:23
qwerty12_N800synaptic compiles + runs in diablo but the interface looks like shit in Maemo00:24
b-manis it usable though?00:24
aquatixi think resolution might be cramped00:25
qwerty12_N800dunno, it showed my packages but I quit after noticing properly how it looked00:25
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* aquatix uses apt for doing more advanced stuff00:25
aquatixand the regular appman for normal stuff00:25
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b-mani'm thinking of cloning maemo to my sd, removing hildon, and see if i can get kde4 to run on it - i have doubts that it would work though...00:28
b-manall sorts of dependency issues...00:29
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b-manwelcome back qwerty00:31
qwerty12_N800thanks b-man00:31
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b-manqwerty12_N800; do you think it could be possible to compile dosemu for maemo?00:37
b-mani'm shure it would require a fuew code changes - since it was originaly ment for i386...00:38
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* alterego contemplates what he needs to support his projects ..00:39
qwerty12_N800b-man, possibly, it doesn't seem too complicated. but you raise a good point about i386, dunno if it emulates a processor too00:40
alteregoA blog, bug tracking, public subversion access00:40
qwerty12_N800alterego, do you have a temp web page up re ruby-maemo? I'd love to see more on it00:41
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alteregoqwerty12_N800: I'll stick the old one up in a few minutes if you want to see that.00:41
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qwerty12_N800yes, please (if it is no problem)00:42
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b-manit looks like, according to wikipedia, that dosemu is just a compatibility layer - not an absolute emulator;
b-manQemu looks like a possibility thought - it imulates a cpu;
alteregokqemu is cooler :)00:47
alteregoAnd kvm is even cooler :D00:47
Veggenkvm is quite ok. I use it for some things.00:49
Veggenactually, I use it to run a 32-bits Linux for 32-bit-specific things on my 64-bit Ubuntu ;P00:49
b-manThe problem might be that qemu/kqemu/kvm sorce code might use some x86 spacific binary calls and that could cause problems if we were to port thease to armel.00:52
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alteregoqwerty12_N800: it used to look prettier, but I can't be bothered to properly configure apache to render it correctly :)00:56
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qwerty12_N800alterego, Thanks!00:57
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alteregoGetting flash backs looking at this content. I remember how much time and effort it took me to get desktop plugin support ..01:00
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* alterego hugs svn01:12
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alteregoOkay prepares to build ruby-maemo 1.0 rc1 :)01:25
alteregoThe moment everyone has been waiting for ^_^01:25
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alteregoMy sources are clean, the new svn repo is nicely organised. I've rebuilt my build scripts and fixed a lot of issues with the debianization. Two days well spend :)01:26
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towoDoes anyone know if the SU-8W has, like, page up or down01:42
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towoI can't possibly open that right now. :)01:45
towoI  just have it in front of me right now and can't scroll up.01:46
towousing the built in x terminal.01:46
lcukyou make these problems for yourself then :) it appears as though it doesnt have explicit pageup/down keys but that doesnt mean it wont support mappings01:47
towoYeah, but remapping only the bluetooth HID is a serious PITA.. Tried to find a dvorak mapping without obliterating the internal kezboard... Didn't really work.01:48
lcuklike i said, you make these problems yourself :D bbiab01:49
towo pffft.01:51
sin18i cloned my tablet(n800/diablo 43.7) to boot from SD as well as set up advanced; while it does show boot messages initially it still shows the splash screen (hands extending pic)01:57
sin18advanced booting*01:57
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qwerty12_N800yes, on computer too i stop seeing messages when xserver is started (unless i manually switch back)01:59
sin18qwerty12_N800 : i was under the impression that was more of a splash screen; for example on fc10 it can simple be turn off in the grub menu and i was thinking that among other things the advanced booting would switch off this splash screen as well02:01
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Vulcanisyou have to actually edit the pictures02:04
Vulcanisits a nokia thing, as far as I know02:05
sin18Vulcanis : but it cannot be disabled ?02:06
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GAN8001lol . . . allnameswereout added "WebKit as default engine in MicroB for Fremantle" as a Fremantle Star02:18
GAN8001I can't even begin to count the number of things wrong with that.02:18
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dick-richardsonwith the built-in mapping software on the n810, can you load a saved route (from google earth for example)?02:49
alteregoWould be neat though ..02:52
dick-richardsoncan wayfinder use the downloaded maps from the built-in app?02:53
GAN8001Be nice having active routing in Maemo Mapper with HSPA02:53
alteregoYou're on an N8001?!?02:54
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alteregoI was talking to GAN8001 ;)02:57
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qwerty12_N800ooh. cold.02:59
VulcanisI still think we should petition nokia to make an n805 out of spare parts03:00
Vulcanis2 SD/MMC slots03:00
Vulcanisa keyboard03:00
Vulcanisand no gps03:00
alteregoAnd an N95 screen? ^_^03:00
alteregoI was playing a racing car game on my N95 the other day whilst it was plugged into my TV. I had a vision, where new phones could be portable games consoles and I could use a wiimote with it.03:01
alteregoIf the new tablet has TV-Out then I can realise that dream ..03:01
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* alterego starts working on a maemo5 port of libcwiid03:03
alteregoWith Ruby bindings ;)03:03
pupnikI bet Muaad`dib would have trouble seeing into the future right now03:07
alteregoI'm actually suprised I got a reference to Dune ..03:07
pupnikat least my crystal ball is pretty foggy03:08
pupnikand dark03:08
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alteregoTomorrow I'm going to attempt to upload to extras.03:12
alteregoThough I think I'll need an invite am I right?03:12
infobothmm... upload-extras is
alteregoOoo, I'm reading a different doc that says pretty much the same thing :)03:13
qwerty12_N800hehe, go for the wiki page :p. dunno if the wiki page has been changed but you don't need to sign your packages anymore (thank god (or x-fade)) :)03:15
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alteregoIs the autobuilder software available to download? Would be nice to have a local version to test everything with.03:16
lcukno sorry, it couldnt get itself through to extras. for some reason it kept failing :D03:17
alteregorecursive builds? ^_^03:17
qwerty12_N800the source is on garage somewhere but it's, for all intents, a "lite" scratchbox that wants your Build-Depends filled in03:18
alteregoYeah, just wondering how verbose my depends have to be.03:18
lcukassume linux and RMS are both stood behind your back whilst building03:19
lcuklinus ^03:19
qwerty12_N800Should be ok, I just usually run dpkg-genbuilddeps -rfakeroot and pick out the -dev packages03:19
alteregoI have packages that have build deps on another package I have created :)03:20
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qwerty12_N800Have fun :P03:21
alteregoPresumable I have to submit them in order and wait for them to get built? Or will it happen automagically?03:21
TrueJournalsw00t!  Figured out how to chroot deblet :-P03:21
TrueJournalsNow I just need to get an ACTUAL keyboard...03:21
qwerty12_N800alterego, you'll have to do it in order, any extra dependencies are apt-getted from extras-devel repo03:22
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alteregoextras-devel is for immature software correct?03:22
alteregoThen packages get promoted to 'extras' right?03:23
alteregoBut '-dev' packages are only in extras-devel?03:23
qwerty12_N800It's up to you what is promoted, -dev packages and all03:23
alteregoAh, okay.03:24
alteregoWell, as long as my sections are filled in correct it should all go through to 'extras' imo.03:24
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qwerty12_N800You'll have to ensure your packages build for i386 too, the autobuilder is picky about that03:25
alteregoI've ensured they do ;)03:26
alteregoI have my _own_ auto builder .. Of sorts.03:26
qwerty12_N800the maemo policy is a good read too03:27
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alteregoOh, found it.03:27
alteregoShould be a good bedtime read ... :)03:27
qwerty12_N800Hehe :)03:28
merkuralexDoes anyone know if there are downloadable schematics to make a tilt stick03:28
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qwerty12_N800merkuralex, not 100% sure but seems to have one03:31
merkuralexYea im looking at that doesn't seem to have a parts list...03:32
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GAN8001alterego, Quicksilver G4. ;)03:36
alteregoThat's interesting, I'm trying to use a project name, it says it's taken .. But it's not ..03:36
alteregoActually, it's not interesting. It's a pain.03:37
merkuralexRestar the browser and clear cache?03:37
alteregoNo, it has nothing to do with the web browser. This is weirdness.03:37
merkuralexTry again later :D03:38
alteregoI seriously doubt that'll have any effect.03:38
GAN8001If you have issues with Extras or Garage, be sure to harass X-Fade. ;)03:38
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alterego"the packages I want to upload are:" god, I really have to fill all of the names out? :D03:42
GAN8001alterego, it's just X-Fade03:42
alteregoI like the idea of "Request Invitation" sounds nice and rude ^_^03:42
GAN8001So send the request then harass him about it later if you feel the need. ;)03:42
alteregoThere should be a "Gatecrash Extras" option :D03:42
GAN8001That's where we all steal qwerty12's keys and upload trojans.03:43
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qwerty12_N800Hehe :P. Or we can do a qole :p03:44
* qwerty12_N800 ducks. Squeak?03:45
GAN8001He's gonna read the log. :P03:45
* qwerty12_N800 runs over the border & gets a new identity03:46
qwerty12_N800och, that only works if you aren't surrounded by sea :p03:46
alteregoOh, cool. So I don't have to mess around with creating a garage "project" to use the auto-builder.03:47
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gentooeranyone using their tablet with a2dp bluetooth?06:21
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t_s_ohmm, i may well be able to fit that webkit thing, seems libicu didnt take up as much room as first expected...06:31
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t_s_othe speed diff between webkit and microb makes me wonder...06:47
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GAN800t_s_o, MicroB is old07:05
GAN800js performance is shit07:06
GAN800Reevaluate after it's updated to a recent FF07:06
t_s_oif that ever happens on my N800 :P07:06
gentooerwill MicroB ever be updated to FF3?07:07
GAN800That'll be the easy port. :)07:07
GAN800gentooer, it is FF3.07:07
t_s_oits just based of some alpha, iirc...07:08
GAN800It's just FF3a107:08
gentooeroh yeah those were slow07:08
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GAN800Who wants to bet we'll never see the lists again?07:11
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zakkmthey should update it07:13
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GAN800Mailing lists are borked.07:37
t_s_oah, had not noticed07:41
zakkmdo any of you use Fennec Alpha 2?07:43
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jakemaheui think i've finished the script08:01
zakkmjakemaheu: heard of the new release of nitdroid coming out08:07
jakemaheusame herw08:07
infobotjakemaheu meant: same here08:07
zakkmlooks so nice ;p08:07
jakemaheuthe install should stay the same, hopefully08:08
zakkmgoing to have a bootloader :P08:08
zakkmfor maemo and nitdroid08:08
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jakemaheui hope08:12
jakemaheui've spent like a week writing the script08:13
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disco_stuzakkm, hi08:28
zakkmlooking to buy a bluetooth keyboard ;p08:28
zakkmsee if i can find a cheap one ;p08:28
disco_stui use a wireless one, but it is not very portable08:29
disco_stui've seen those rubber kb that van be folded.. looks good08:31
infobotdisco_stu meant: i've seen those rubber kb that can be folded.. looks good08:32
disco_stuloggitech dinovo is nice, but very expensive..08:33
disco_stubluetooth ones can be used with cellphones wich is a plus08:34
disco_stuzakkm, did you install the last ssu?08:37
zakkmshould i of?08:37
disco_stuwhy u didnt?08:37
zakkmdont own a cellphone08:37
disco_stueverybody owns a cellphone these days, you are a lucky one who doesnt get disturbed08:38
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JaffaMorning, all09:35
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merkuralexHas anyone thought to try TibiaME on the n810 with debian installed? It is java isn't it?09:49
* RST38h moos09:49
RST38hit is not java09:50
RST38hnative S60 app, very slow too09:50
merkuralexOk thanks for the info....09:53
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qwerty12hi Stskeeps11:32
Stskeepstrying to make a sane way to do "first boot" scripts, heh11:35
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Stskeepsthinking /etc/firstboot.d or something11:36
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Stskeepsand -one- initscript in runlevel S11:36
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Stskeepssane / not sane? :>11:48
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t_s_ohmm, does anyone have a modified startpage with a wikipedia search box below the google one?11:59
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Stskeepsmorning lcuk12:38
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* lcuk hates sunday mornings12:40
* Stskeeps is waiting for parents in law to come back and for them to leave for his gf's brother12:42
lcukStskeeps, are they on a tour12:43
Stskeepslcuk: sortof i guess12:44
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Stskeepsi just really want some real holiday atm :P12:45
lcukso where would you rather be :D hot n sunny or cold n icy12:46
t_s_oquick guess, anywhere private with the gf...12:46
Stskeepswhat t_s_o said12:47
RST38hport xbmc!12:48
lcukneed ogl12:48
qwerty12Just buy an xbox, not like they're expensive now :P12:49
RST38hJack said of her decision to buy a gun. "What if somebody wants to break in and take our possessions or our cans of food? A fear of the unknown is a terrible thing."12:49
lcuki believe its the portability aspect12:49
RST38hqwerty: What if it melts down and burns the place? A fear of the unknown is a terrible thing.12:50
* RST38h grins12:50
qwerty12RST38h, but that could be true of any electrical item :P12:50
RST38hqwerty: Well, XBox has a certain history...12:51
RST38hA District woman said she was so fearful when her husband brought home a new flat-screen TV that she made him chop the box into little pieces on trash day, so no passersby would be tempted into her home.12:53
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Stskeeps<3 fear12:54
RST38hWatts recently decided to do all of her holiday shopping online after she saw GameStop employees at the Pentagon City mall offering to escort customers who bought electronics to their cars.12:54
* RST38h wonders if he has to start worrying about marauders stealing his cans of food and buy a slignshot12:56
qwerty12pellet gun12:56
StskeepsRST38h: the economic crisis that bad in US? :P12:57
Vulcanishunting rifle12:57
RST38hSts: Reading this article, yes12:57
RST38hSts: In reality, probably no12:58
suihkulokkinice bestseller :P12:59
qwerty12The word retards comes to mind12:59
Stskeepssarah palin with a gun, heh13:00
RST38hwhat have you expected? a broomstick? =)13:00
Stskeepsyes, and cooking utils13:01
RST38hshe would actually do good hosting a cooking TV program13:02
suihkulokki"here's howto boil MOOSE stew!"13:02
RST38h"How to hunt ans skin a squirrel"13:02
RST38hMore of the same:
* Stskeeps ponders how many % of the news material in danish newspapers are picked up on digg/reddit and such..13:17
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i have a tar.gz mer image if you're bored at some point13:20
qwerty12Stskeeps, possibly..13:21
Stskeepsgrr, still tslib problems13:21
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qwerty12This runs off the memory card right? May as well try it out, I've got nitdroid on the 2nd partition doing nothing13:24
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Stskeepsneeds bootmenu.d support and a usual deblet curse of an .item13:25
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Stskeepswell, or just _LINUXRC :P13:25
qwerty12Sure, I've got your bootmenu in black :p13:25
Stskeepsthere's some hold down bug or something with  the touchscreen, think johnx was looking into it13:25
qwerty12I could probably live without a right click for a while13:26
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Stskeepsand this is the usual bare image, just base system :P13:28
Stskeepswith screenshot tool and mer rescue menu to get console and such13:28
qwerty12No wifi? :/13:28
Stskeepsnot yet, didn't get around to it13:28
qwerty12I can do a basic usbnet connection but if it comes to bridging, I'm SOL13:28
Stskeepsubuntu box? use johnx's usbnet instructions13:29
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Stskeepsit has usb support in rescue menu so :P13:29
qwerty12Ok, it doesn't assume I'm using the latest kernel by any chance? :/13:29
Stskeepsand in /etc/network/interfaces13:29
Stskeepsit just assumes you have some kind of kernel i think13:30
Stskeepsit assumes you have 2.6.21 i think13:30
Stskeepscos of the framebuffer modules13:30
qwerty12Oh, on the computer side13:30
Stskeepsah, no13:30
qwerty12cool, I'm still using an old kernel because I need ndiswrapper to work & I can't be arsed to compile my own :/13:30
Stskeepsare the ones in /etc/network/interfaces i use13:31
qwerty12framebuffer modules are no problem, I've got them with a 2.6.21 kernel I compiled recently13:31
* alterego yawns13:32
alteregoGood morning folks.13:32
Stskeepsqwerty12: didn't add wifi yet as i didn't know how we could deal with firmware and such :P but the packages you made should make it a lot easier13:33
qwerty12Heh, glad they (hopefully) plan to help :P13:33
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Stskeepsthink i'll just build tablet-wireless :P13:40
Stskeepsand then nm-applet should be quite easy13:40
Stskeeps(i hate nm but we dont have any other nice choices atm)13:40
qwerty12Hopefully, it runs a lot better on the tablet than it does on my desktop...13:40
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qwerty12I ended up using debian pinning so I could keep the version from hardy when I upgraded13:41
qwerty12The new network manager would disconnect me in 60 seconds and make unleash a torrent of swearing upon my computer13:41
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Stskeepswifi is probably easily possible through /etc/network/interfaces.13:53
Stskeepsinstalling tablet-wireless and wpasupplicant13:54
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Stskeepswhy on f*cking earth does network-manager-gnome depend on libgweather1?14:01
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qwerty12It only lets you connect if the weather is sunny (which may explain my problems as I live in London...)14:02
* RST38h has a better question: Why does every third Linux package appear to depend on the TeX installation?14:03
Stskeepsin build dependancies or dependancies?14:04
RST38hjust dependancies14:04
Stskeepsbuild dependancies can be explained by stuff like texinfo or something :P14:04
Stskeeps(wtf came up with the abdomination 'info' is anyway?)14:04
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Stskeepsno surprises.14:06
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Raho_770hi! i have problems with maemo mapper on a nokia 770. is it ok to ask here or is there a specific channel for maemo mapper?14:09
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Stskeepswell this isn't a support channel, but your answer may be answered :P else there's always internettablettalk :)14:10
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: nokia-n8x0-firmware is a good thing for wifi too :P14:10
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qwerty12_N800Thanks Stskeeps14:10
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, heh, you need to advertise your december tasks more :P14:11
qwerty12_N800No one has stepped up to do the qemu one :/14:12
Raho_770ok i'll have a try~ :-) i reflashed my nokia 770 and installed maemo mapper. now the "bluetooth" radio button in the gps settings is greyed out. is there any package i need that is not listed in the dependencies?14:12
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: yeah, think things will speed up a bit more once we have a sane image to work out from14:13
* Stskeeps ponders why mer failed to find firmwar14:13
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* qwerty12_N800 <3's unofficial xchat patch for coloured nick list14:19
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Stskeepsgod, this tslib bug is annoying14:30
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sikor_sxehello, after a short visit to nitdroid i wanted to reflash the latest diablo on my n800. i started the reflash on linux, but it aborted with "write failed at xxx bytes". my n800 seems seriously bricked now (can't turn it on or off, won't react to anything). is it?14:35
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sikor_sxewhen i put the charger in the nokia r&d logo keeps flashing on and off14:38
timelesshave you pulled the battery?14:38
alteregoHello timeless long time no see :)14:39
timelesshappy new year or something14:40
alteregoNot quite ;)14:40
timelessyou're going to quible about <200 hours?14:40
timelesshow about "have a happy new year"?14:40
alteregoThat works.14:41
timelessalright. sold14:41
timelesshow about "merry christmas"14:41
timelessor is that also out of bounds? :)14:41
alteregoBit late for that now ;)14:41
timelessmerry after christmas shopping?14:41
* timeless isn't christian14:41
alteregoHah, the thought has crossed my mind ..14:41
alteregoI'm not sure what to base the new ruby-maemo site on. Whether I should build something from scratch or use a CMS/Wiki/Summit14:42
timelesswhat do you need in it?14:42
timelessi'm actually quite happy w/
alteregoBasically a list of the packages and descriptions, I'd like an area for code snippets and examples14:43
timelesswhich is basically generated by a script i wrote14:43
alteregoYeah, that looks nice.14:43
timelessthe css/layout is theirs14:43
timelessmuch better than the original14:44
timelessbut the general way it fills in articles and manages them is mine :)14:44
alteregoI think I will roll my own.14:44
* timeless ponders teaching mxr about ruby14:44
sikor_sxetimeless: yes14:45
timelessoh, that's the battery14:45
timelessright so um14:45
timelessfirst of all, you brick it at your own risk :)14:45
timelessi'm sure you read the fine print14:45
timelesssecond. i'm not an expert, and this is not official technical support14:45
timelessfor that, please call nokia cares at...14:45
timeless(what's that number? 1-800-nokia-cares ?)14:46
Stskeepsnokia cares? :P scary14:46
timelessbut typically for basic stuff, you remove the battery, plug in the usb, start the flasher, insert the battery, knock on wood, pray, sacrifice one or two goats and three chickens14:46
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n0kiawe don't care14:46
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sikor_sxei don't put the the battery back in?14:47
timelessthat's covered by 'insert'14:47
timelesshowever if yoy want to do that after you pray14:47
timelessthat's probably wiser14:47
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timelessso, are you in .de or .us?14:47
timeless(or somewhere stranger)14:48
`MaceStskeeps ?14:48
timelessGermany  0180 501 502 0  Mon - Sat / 9-1814:48
Stskeeps`Mace: mm?14:48
timelessthat's the nokia care number14:48
`Macei checked out the settings and maxed it out14:48
`Macejust now14:48
Stskeeps`Mace: lemme check14:49
`Macehad it set to 2000MHz ... which should have been 1000x214:49
timelessor at least, rather, perhaps, that's /a/ nokia care number14:49
`Maceit's up to 4000 now14:49
timelessand nokia's web ui is ...14:49
* timeless sighs and whacks nokia14:49
sikor_sxeafter inserting the battery, should i press home & on?14:49
`Macesee if it works a little better.. if it doesn't then i'll allocate some more mem for you14:49
timelessyeah, sure :)14:50
timelesspray first14:50
timelesspray early, pray often14:50
Stskeeps`Mace: i'll try later, - parents in law in house and leaving soon.. :P14:50
sikor_sxenothing happens :/14:50
sikor_sxescreen stays black14:50
timelessdon't suppose you have a battery compatible device :)14:51
`MaceStskeeps - right now you're avging 17MHz for some reason ;) probably because it sucked up the resources from being idle14:51
qwerty12_N800sikor_sxe, you sure the battery wasn't near-empty before flashing?14:51
timelessthat's my comment on batteries and flashing :)14:52
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* timeless should go shopping14:52
`MaceStskeeps - let me know if it didn't help. i may need to shut it down and give you more mem and double check all the settings and give it a higher priority14:52
sikor_sxeqwerty12_N800: i doubt that. but it might be, android does not support battery14:53
sikor_sxenow that14:53
qwerty12_N800timeless, heh14:53
sikor_sxe's interesting14:53
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sikor_sxei put in the ac and a green console output appears14:53
sikor_sxekernel version etc14:53
timelessit isn't published because it's missing art and a proofreader14:53
qwerty12_N800sikor_sxe, yeah, happens in rd mode. sounds like it may be booting14:54
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sikor_sxeit was in rd mode before14:54
Stskeeps`Mace: you can just restart if needed, no server processes14:54
sikor_sxefor nitdroid14:54
* timeless loads zemanta14:55
`MaceStskeeps - i will if it's still going slow for you ;)14:55
qwerty12_N800timeless, re proofreading, here's one: s/you might get even more shots But you might also die./you might get even more shots. But you might also die./ :P14:55
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`Macejust try it out a bit more... let me know if it still sucks... i'll shut it down and amp it up14:55
sikor_sxetimeless: ok, i guess that means the device is bricked14:56
timelesssikor: nokia care :)14:56
sikor_sxe*sigh* at least one gadget less to occupy my time14:56
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timelessqwerty: fwiw14:57
sikor_sxepheew i don't think it'll be worth the hazzle. i guess it involves sending stuff around?14:57
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timelessis the master14:57
* RST38h has got his hands onto 580014:57
timelesswhich explains the missing punctuation14:57
RST38hSo far so good14:57
* timeless tries to decide what punctuation to use14:57
* timeless thinks a dash is better14:57
* timeless grumbles14:58
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Stskeepssikor_sxe: n800 or n810?14:59
Stskeepssikor_sxe: try the following.. turn off tablet, connect to computer using usb, start flasher, put in charger15:00
alteregoruby-maemo is now 19 packages15:02
sikor_sxei left the n800 connected to the ac for a while15:03
sikor_sxeand tried timeless' instructions15:03
timelessqwerty: reload the html page?15:03
sikor_sxethis time the flasher went through 100%15:03
Stskeepsoh, good15:03
sikor_sxegreat, a boot screen15:03
sikor_sxethanks timeless, qwerty12_N800 and Stskeeps15:04
qwerty12_N800sikor_sxe, looks like your time will be occupied again :)15:05
sikor_sxeyeah, pity15:05
qwerty12_N800timeless, nice :D :)15:05
timelessqwerty: which gun location do you prefer, top or bottom15:05
qwerty12_N800timeless, I like it at the top15:06
* timeless hunts for a flashing icon15:06
sikor_sxetimeless: doesn't the battery charge if it's not flashed correctly?15:06
timelessif you manager to totally hose it, you can be in really bad shape :)15:07
timelessthere's no guarantee you can't fry the code responsible for battery control15:07
timeless(charing, capping, stopping, discharging ...)15:08
timelesseveryone tries to prevent letting users get devices into a state where they might e.g. explode15:08
timelessbut if you're very clever, you might manage it15:08
timeless-... don't play russian roulette15:08
Stskeepsif qwerty12_N800 hasn't exploded his yet, it'd require either a really smart person, .. or a complete and utter idiot15:08
sikor_sxeyou're sure there's code involved in charging the battery?15:09
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* RST38h wonders why Nokia Software Updater takes 24MB just in archived form15:09
timeless(spoken w/ engineers about it)15:09
RST38hJust WHAT exactly is there?15:09
timelessrst: the gui one?15:09
timelessw/ all the pictures?15:09
timelessand localizations? :)15:09
StskeepsRST38h: pictures of happy children15:09
Stskeeps.. probably15:10
Stskeepsor was that ubuntu?15:10
timelessNokia Internet Tablet Software Update Wizard15:10
timelessis 2mb on disk15:10
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, ever see the do it with ubuntu t-shirts? :P15:11
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: not recently, no15:11
RST38hSts: The UI is ugly like hell, not many pictures there15:11
timelessrst: which thing is 24mb?15:11
RST38hSts: So whatever pedophilic softporn is there, the application is not showing it15:11
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* RST38h suspects that this thing is quietly installing another Java Runtime15:12
timelessthere's also perhaps 3mb in a cable driver15:12
timelessnot sure if that came w/ the flasher15:12
timeless1/2mb in a flashing cable driver15:12
timeless2mb in "tablet update"15:13
sikor_sxeis it just me, or is fennec alpha 2 still far from usable?15:13
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timelesssikor: how many bugs have you filed?15:13
* timeless has only filed one15:13
alteregoIt is still alpha sikor_sxe15:13
RST38hShit, the installed version is 36MB and it refuses to uninstall15:14
sikor_sxenot that's it's buggy or crashes a lot, but it's so unresponsive i doubt it'll go anywhere15:14
* timeless needs to file a second15:14
RST38hAnd the new one refuses to install unless the previous one is uninstalled15:14
RST38hPerfect, just perfect15:14
timelesssikor: well... responsiveness is an interesting problem15:14
timelesswe have half plans to try to fix that15:14
timelessbut they're um... complicated15:14
timelessesp by the fact that microb has shown the frameworks aren't very friendly to that stuff15:14
alteregoIt is alpha ...15:15
timeless(sure, some of the bugs were introduced by the microb engineers, but i think some of them aren't solvable and are the fault of the components we use)15:15
timelessalterego: i don't think i'd expect great responsiveness from 1015:15
timelesserr 1.015:15
alteregoYeah, that one was more pointed at "I need to uninstall the previous version" comment :)15:16
timelessis this on the tablet?15:16
timelessbecause that's darn depressing :)15:16
sikor_sxei just wonder why maemo was choosen as a reference platform15:16
timelessanyone have a decent picture of a flashing thing?15:16
timelesssikor: what would you prefer?15:16
timelesswindows mobile?15:16
timelessthere aren't many choices15:17
timelesswhile there is a port to BeOS and the newer palms are somewhat related to beos15:17
timelessin practice, i think the system requirements aren't there :)15:17
timelessforget newton for obvious reasons15:17
* RST38h googles for Nokia Software Updater and discovers the bottomless pits of Nokia hate15:18
timelessforget iphone for licensing reasons15:18
timelessrst: heh15:18
sikor_sxeit seems to be too high-end for the hardware15:18
sikor_sxesame thing with canola15:18
timelessrst: well, all mine did was eat my saved connections15:18
RST38hAll right, let us do it the hard way15:18
timelesssymbian is out because there's no finnished port15:18
timelessthat leaves windows mobile and maemo15:18
timelessrealistically, windows mobile doesn't have the right hacker mentality15:18
timelessand there aren't many people using gecko there15:19
sikor_sxeall the eye-candy isn't worth much if it's choppy15:19
timelesswhereas microb on maemo is established w/ hacker clientelle15:19
timelessthe eyecandy isn't eyecandy15:19
timelessit's idea candy15:19
timelessthe idea is to reinvent how things are done15:19
timelessthe precise details and eyecandy can be ironed out later15:19
timelessalphas are for adding features, staging ideas, and collecting feedback15:20
timelesspolish comes much later15:20
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sikor_sxewill maemo 5 stay api compatible15:20
* timeless shrugs15:21
timelesscheck qgil's announcements?15:21
timelessyou shouldn't need to ask a non authoritative channel when there are publications about :)15:21
sikor_sxei just wondered wether maybe fennec is developed with a later hardware revision in mind15:22
timelessthe mozilla engineers are buying/collecting n800/n810s15:22
timelessthey have no access to other hardware15:22
timelessalthough they are talking about getting beagleboards or similar15:23
timelessthey do at least for the time being expect to ship to the n800/n810s15:23
timelesssince again, there aren't many viable targets atm15:23
timelessand they need to target /something/15:23
timelessthey need something w/ a reasonable number of deployed devices15:23
timelessso even if newer hardware appeared, it wouldn't be useful15:23
timelessbecause it'd take time for people to buy it15:23
sikor_sxei developed some gameboy homebrew stuff once, all in an emulator :)15:24
timelessqwerty: i can't find a better flasher picture than:
timelesssurely there's a windows flasher image online?15:24
* timeless sighs15:26
timelessit looks like i told firefox never to load images from :)15:26
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timelesshrm, the nokia software updater (for the n810) is ~3mb15:28
timelesswho was complaining about ~24mb?15:28
timelessthe phone thing does gobs of things15:28
*** qwerty12_N800_ is now known as qwerty12_N80015:28
timeless~20 different features or ~100 different models15:28
lcuk mmmmmmm15:29
timeless(my pcsuite is ~50mb)15:29
RST38h"phone thing" does exactly one thing - it downloads and updates firmware.15:30
RST38hwhy this simple thing requires 24MB of crap is beyond me15:30
timelesshrm, my phone thing is broken15:30
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timelessit's not for end users :)15:31
timelesswhat version do you have?15:31
timelessmine really is ~2mb15:31
timeless(actually, the last time i tried to use the software updater, i failed and had to resort to using someone else's computer15:34
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timelessand iirc the time before that,i also used someone else's computer)15:34
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RST38hhehe, "community open source projects" start finding out they are not community15:39
RST38hFirst Mozilla, now OpenOffice15:39
timelessrst: url for mozilla?15:39
RST38hEclipse too, most likely15:39
timelesslast i checked mozilla was relatively healthy15:39
crashanddieopen office never was healthy15:41
* timeless nods15:42
crashanddiethey're just there because there's no competition15:42
crashanddieand everyone hails them as a flag for open source excellence, when really it's just an amalgam of crappy software15:42
RST38hwhich reminds me that abiword is still not totally usable on Maemo15:42
timelesscrashanddie: are you really sure the software is crappy?15:43
timelessfrom what i've seen, the code isn't that bad, and the docs seem volumous15:43
timeless(which is not atypicaly from sun)15:43
timelessif you want low quality code15:45
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timelessi can point you to every single open source codec15:45
* timeless has looked at a couple of late15:45
timelessor most browser plugins15:45
timeless(open source or closed, i'm not picky)15:45
timeless(although i think the open source ones are probably at least marginally worse)15:45
timelessand there's no point in talking about anything written w/ gtk :)15:46
timeless(or for s60 for that matter)15:46
derfVoluminous documentation doesn't help you much when most of it is wrong.15:46
timelessis that the case for ooo?15:47
derfWell, I don't know about "most", but certainly "a lot".15:47
timelessis that from churn or was it wrong from the gate?15:47
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derfThey also have the same features implemented about 18 different times, each with their own bugs, and refuse to refactor anything.15:47
derftimeless: I'll be generous and assume the latter.15:48
derfIt's what happens in large projects with lots of documentation.15:48
* timeless pokes google chrome w/ a sledgehammer15:48
* timeless shrugs15:48
timelessime at least w/ solaris, the documentation is generally fairly close to accurate15:48
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timelessif there's a systemic problem it's usually because the doc geneator is broken, not the docs15:49
derfYes, well. Solaris is not run like OOo.15:49
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derfMy roommate uses OOo automation stuff for his job... he could do a much better job telling you about all of its shortcomings than I could.15:50
derfBut I get to hear about them regularly.15:50
timeless         nbytes = 0x157801215:50
* timeless sighs15:51
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timelesssomeone's complaining that if they try very hard they can use lots of memory15:51
timelessdon't ask me why that's remotely interesting15:51
derfAnyway, as an author of two open source codecs, I'll ask you to be specific with your low quality code remark.15:52
timeless(and no, they haven't explained)15:52
timelessderf: url for your code?15:52
timelessi'll give you a list15:52
timelessit should take about 5-10mins15:52
timelessbut generally codecs aren't written to handle alloc failure15:52
timelesswhich isn't acceptable because codecs are almost always run:15:52
timelessa. in process15:52
timelessb. on untrusted data15:52
derftimeless: That's because alloc doesn't generally _handle_ failure correctly.15:53
timelessc. with at least user privileges (i.e. not as nobody)15:53
crashanddiethe usability is horrendous15:53
crashanddiethus the software is crap15:53
crashanddiesoftware != code15:53
derfOn many OS's, malloc over-commits pages.15:53
timelessderf: well, that's not really true15:53
* alterego yawns15:53
derfAnd so it doesn't return NULL when you're out of memory, and then it segfaults when you try to use it.15:53
timelessthe only os i know of that lies through its teach is linux15:53
timelessosx doesn't15:54
timelesswindows doesn't15:54
timelessbsd/solaris don't15:54
timelessqnx doesn't15:54
timelessbeos doesn't15:54
timelessand i've run out of memory on all of those15:54
timeless(and os/2 for that matter)15:54
timelessmalloc really will return null15:54
timelessin fact, it's trivial to get malloc to return null on linux15:54
timeless(it just doesn't usually happen for "small" allocs)15:54
timelessif you ask for 3.9gb on a 32bit system, the malloc will fail15:55
timeless(return 0)15:55
timelessspeaking of which15:55
* timeless checks a realloc15:55
derfSure... if it can't even make the page table entries, but that's not the point...15:55
timeless         nbytes = 0x20c508015:55
derfThe point is not that it _can_ return NULL, it's that it _can_ return non-NULL, even when it succeeds.15:55
derf*even when it fails15:56
timelessnot particularly relevant15:56
timelessyou're supposed to handle the cases that are guaranteed to happen15:56
timelessnot say "i'm not going to write corect code because sometimes things won't behave correctly"15:56
timelesswhat kind of lame excuse is that?15:56
derfI'm saying your definition of correctly is wrong.15:56
derfBecause it doesn't actually solve the problem you think it's solving.15:57
timelessthe problem i want solved is that:15:57
timeless1. you don't leak15:57
timeless2. you don't allow arbitrary code execution15:57
timeless(possibly not in that order)15:57
timelessyou can't rely on the kernel oom killer to save you from either of those15:57
derfExplain to me how malloc returning NULL leads to arbitrary code execution.15:57
timelessthere are some very cool PoCs wrt flash of late which do that15:58
timelessif you don't check the alloc15:58
timelessand you do an array deref instead of a simple null deref15:58
timelessand it's a write15:58
timelessthen you can end up setting up for something quite interesting15:58
timelessanyway, the last adobe flash exploit was basically that15:58
timelessthere are some cooler ones too15:58
timelessbut anyway15:58
derfYes, I saw it. That's a substantially more complicated setup.15:58
derfAnd not _just_ caused by the malloc failure.15:59
timeless         nbytes = 0x27edfca15:59
timelessoh, sure, it's not 'just'15:59
timelessbut it was one of the bits15:59
timelessand most codecs are worse than flash15:59
timelessnot better15:59
derfBut that's like saying, "Well, you use array references. That can lead to arbitrary code execution, so let's get rid of all of them."15:59
timelessi'm not saying that15:59
timelessi'm saying write correct code15:59
derfI'm saying, and have said, that "correct" does not mean what you want it to mean.16:00
timelessand don't cop out because on linux sometimes you'll be killed by the kernel because it got caught w/ its pants down16:00
timelessyour code should not crash <period>16:00
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timelessif someone wants to kill it, that's fine16:00
timelessthat's a very simple definition of correct16:00
timelessand you should live with it.16:00
timelessand you should live by it16:00
timelessand that's all.16:00
* timeless prepares /ignore16:00
derfIf your goal is really not to crash period, checking malloc returns is in sufficient. You'll need a signal handler. And what the heck you think you can usefully do once _that_ trips, I'll be interested to hear.16:01
timelesssignal handlers don't work16:01
timelessthey generally lead to exploits actually16:01
RST38hWOnderful! Now the Software Updater says that there is a newer version installed and STILL refuses to install16:01
derfI agree, they're fairly useless.16:01
derfBut those are the tools you've got.16:02
timelessabout the only safe thing a signal handler can do is kill(9)16:02
RST38hNokia should just fire the whole team =(16:02
timelessespecially for various linux flavors where signal dispatch was to a random thread :)16:02
timelessor something similarly amusing16:02
timelessi'm curious, can you name a case where you really need a signal handler to not crash?16:02
timelessignoring the oom killer killing you16:02
timelessand ignoring the fact that writing correct code takes effort16:03
qwerty12_N800RST38h, tried the windows installer clean up tool? also, if you don't have pc suite installed, the pc suite cleanup tool helped16:03
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timelesswhere do you strictly speaking *need* a signal handler?16:03
timelessarray bounds checking can be done16:03
timelessso can alloc checking16:03
timelessand so can checking division16:03
timelessthe case of libraries getting unloaded or people misusing atexit16:03
timelessare distinct problems (or rather, they're simply bugs in other libraries)16:04
RST38hqwerty: Is there such a thing?16:04
* timeless curses atk-something-something16:04
derfI told you, you malloc pages, it makes page table entries, but doesn't actually give you pages, and then you try to use them, and you segfault. If you want to try to "ignore" away the whole problem, that's fine.16:04
RST38hqwerty: Well, I have just done my own "cleanup" by deleting all references to Software Installer and PC Connectivity Solution from the registery16:04
timelessthat's a bug in the linux kernel16:04
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RST38hCurrently running registry cleanup16:05
timelessit doesn't happen on the other kernels16:05
RST38h(the real question is why am I supposed to do all this?)16:05
qwerty12_N800RST38h, I did that 3 times to install phoenix...16:05
derfI think it's a bug in your machine. You obviously haven't installed enough RAM.16:05
timelessand yes, if you want to deal w/ that part of the kernel, you can replace libc w/ a libc which forceallocs w/ a signal handler16:05
derfSo I'm going to "ignore" your part of the problem.16:05
timelessderf: shrug, i have 4g of ram and 30 or so g of vm16:05
RST38hqwerty: holyfreakingshit16:05
derfI mean, one of the big arguments, to me, for not bother to check malloc returns, is so that people _don't_ blindly assume that just because you checked to make sure that something wasn't NULL, everything is hunky-dory.16:06
timelesskinda lame16:06
timelessif you need to ensure stuff gets to disk, then you need to do that16:06
timelessand probably periodically w/ an fsync16:06
timelessthe system can power_off() arbitrarilly16:07
timelessor the user can kill-9 you arbitrarilly16:07
timelessthose are both legal and can happen whenever16:07
timelessthe system failing to actually give you the memory it promimsed (and then kill-9'ing you) is no different16:07
crashanddie_kill -9 has never been part of the use cases of any program16:07
crashanddie_and if it is, it's because the designer/programmer has way too much time on his hands16:07
crashanddie_the whole point of kill -9 is that it stops EVERYTHING16:08
timelesscrashanddie: well, not quite true16:08
crashanddie_thus not surprisingly also doesn't allow IO operations to finish graciously16:08
timelessfile descriptors that go away because they're unlink()ed16:08
derfFile descriptors don't go away because they're unlink()ed in Unix.16:08
timelessone coudl almost make a program that could tolerate it16:08
timelessderf: w/ 0 handles left in memory + 0 ref count on disk?16:09
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timelessignoring some very strange stuff, they typically do16:09
derftimeless: A "file descriptor" _is_ a handle left in memory.16:09
timeless(shared memory and the broken linux descriptor ...)16:09
timelessderf: kill -9 solves that file descriptor16:09
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timelesssorry... pick the correct terminology if you really need to16:10
RST38hqwerty: It seems to have helped16:10
timelessbut if you make a file on disk, and unlink it, but keep a file handle to it16:10
derfAnyway, I don't even know what the gekk you're talking about now. It certainly isn't overcommitting pages.16:10
timelessit isn't quite dead until your app dies16:10
timelesskill -9 will resolve the last handle and the file will die16:10
qwerty12_N800RST38h, :)16:10
crashanddieI don't see how that is a problem16:10
timelessit's a digression wrt how someone could handle kill -9 )16:11
RST38hqwerty: Thanks!16:11
RST38hthe haptic feedback on 5800 is weird16:11
timelessanyway... the point is that, sure, overcommit happens on linux because linux is broken16:11
RST38hfeels more like something is rattling inside the phone every time you touch it =)16:11
crashanddieanything not written to disk will be lost when the program crashes/computer shuts down... Now there's a discovery16:11
timelessbut you still need to handle the cases where overcommit doesn't happen16:11
timelesscrashanddie: heh16:11
timelessbtw, for people interested in banks, i've got a great one for you:16:12
crashanddieInvalid certificate, and bank recommendations from IRC...16:12
timelessnot invalid, self signed :)16:12
timelesswho wouldn't trust a self signed bank? :)16:13
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derfHandling it doesn't make your code any "safer", but it does lead people to think it has when it hasn't.16:13
timelessoops, wrong window16:13
crashanddieindian bank? lol16:13
derfBut okay, we now know where we both stand on the issue.16:13
timelesscrashsanddie: oh, one of the indian banks had an "nformation technology" OU iirc16:14
timelesswe liked that16:14
derfSo you've named one thing that causes "low quality code".16:14
derfSo, what else you got?16:14
timelessderf: that's pretty much all i care about16:14
timelessthose are easy to spot,, and generally they're wrong16:14
derfOkay, so you were blowing smoke like I thought.16:14
timelessit's not smoke. there are real fires16:14
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derfThere are. Your "solution" won't solve them.16:15
derfChecking malloc is insufficient to achieve your stated goals.16:15
timelessthe goal is not crash16:15
timelessbeing kill -9'd is not within the defintion of 'crash'16:15
timelesssure there are other ways to write sloppy code16:16
derfRunning out of pages is not being kill -9'd.16:16
timelessand those other ways that result in crashes are bugs16:16
timelessaccessing a page that the system can't provide ...16:16
derfThough now that I see you somehow have conflated the two, I can understand why you went off on the rest of that random tangent.16:16
* timeless is confused16:17
timelessrunning out of pages is something you mentioned16:17
derfI can tell.16:17
timelessif a process has allocated 2g - 1k of memory on a 32bit system w/ 2g userspace16:17
timelessand tries to allocate 1m of memory, sure it's exhausted pages16:17
timelessand sure it'll get null back16:17
timelessbut i wasn't talking about exhausting pages16:17
timelessthat was something you introduced16:17
derfNeither was I.16:18
* timeless shrugs16:18
crashanddiethis one has it as well16:18
crashanddielol... only one subject, no subjectaltname field, no iPAddress field, nothing16:18
crashanddieit's like a 14yo tried his hands at PKI16:18
derfI'm not talking about failing to create the page table entries.16:18
crashanddielol... PKCS#116:18
derfI'm saying it makes the page table entries just fine and hands you back a pointer.16:18
timelesswithi no backing store from the kernel, no?16:18
timeless(linux overcommit)16:19
derfAnd then when you _reference_ one of the pages, it tries to actually go and find some RAM to back that page table entry, and fails, and trips a segfault.16:19
crashanddiehow about we just go to another conversation subject16:19
derfcrashanddie: This is what I was trying to do.16:19
* timeless frowns16:19
timelesslast i checked that results in the kernel trying to make a matching backing store16:19
timelessand failing that resorts to kill -916:19
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timelesscrashanddie, well, would you trust: :)16:20
* timeless kicks verisign16:21
crashanddietimeless, nope16:22
timelesscrashanddie: it gets more amusing16:22
timelesstry visiting https:<realhostname>16:22
timeless(err https://...16:22
crashanddiethey redirect to the http version?16:23
timelessof the original server16:23
timelessnot the one that had a valid cert16:23
sp3000the "log in" button actually goes to the right thing16:23
timelessyeah, that's cheating16:24
* timeless is staring at that page right now16:24
sp3000where did https://www.thelongthing come from?16:24
* timeless is trying to decide which part of verisign to phone16:24
timelesssp3000: it's the logical choice given the http host16:24
timelessi'm doing: google: "bank" + <randomword>16:24
timelessthen changing urls from http: to https:16:24
timelessand watching the results w/ amusement16:25
crashanddiesp3000, good practise would encourage you to have certificates for all the publicly accessible websites16:25
timelesscrashanddie: not just certificates, but valid, anchored, trusted, and non redirecting16:25
timelesspreferably w/ all http sites immediately redirecting to https equivalents16:25
crashanddieor, for the admin's ease of use, one certificate that covers all the different addresses and IPs16:26
crashanddienot necessarily, https is not needed when displaying public bank information16:26
* timeless coughs16:26
timelessif you visited the url
timelessbut you were in a net cafe16:26
timelessand it had a login link16:26
timelesswhich sent you to some https site16:27
timelesswhich wasn't
timelesswould you be happy?16:27
timelesswould you be safe?16:27
crashanddiewhich is why people should check the certificate16:27
sp3000what, like to mbmz? :)16:27
timelessagainst what?16:27
sp3000er, nbnz16:27
crashanddiethe name16:27
timelesswhat name?16:27
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timelessthe stupid bank's cert isn't EV16:27
timelessit's DV16:27
timelessalthough verisign for reasons beyond my comprehension claims it's IV16:27
timelesswhatever the heck IV is16:27
crashanddietimeless, show me a certificate you have the private key of that has or whatever the name is, and that is signed by verisign16:28
RST38hPerfect^2: Nokia supplies software update utility that does not support 580016:28
timelesscrashanddie: i don't need to16:28
timelessi could get
timelessas long as the http thing linked to it and looked right16:28
timelesswhy would you be the wiser?16:28
qwerty12_N800RST38h, looks like you need phoenix too :)16:29
RST38hwhat is phoenix?16:29
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crashanddietimeless, because I'm a PKI professional and actually take note of all the certificates I allow/deny on my machine? ;)16:29
timelesswhat rst38h asked16:29
timelesscrashanddie: and you are a representative sample of what population?16:29
crashanddietimeless, the one in my room16:29
timelessoh good16:30
timelessthat doesn't help the rest of us16:30
timelessi mean seriously16:30
qwerty12_N800RST38h, nokia flasher tool that nokia use in service centers. it's been cracked many times,16:30
RST38hqwerty: An you know the funny thing?16:30
qwerty12_N800Enlighten me :)16:30
timelessis it easier to use? :)16:30
RST38hqwerty: lets me download software update utility that is 15MB instead of 25MB16:30
timelessor does it run linux?16:30
timelessrst38: how many locales?16:31
RST38hqwerty: gonna see how it is different16:31
* timeless still doesn't know what's in that16:31
crashanddietimeless, I think it's just that a lot of website designs prevent the use of https in a correct manner.16:31
RST38hSays ENGLISH16:31
timelessmy updater is really ~4mb16:31
qwerty12_N800RST38h, heh :/16:31
timelessso i really wonder what the other 20mb are :)16:31
sp3000meh, just use ota updates :)16:31
qwerty12_N800timeless, windows only, way more complex :)16:31
crashanddietimeless, you should not have to enable https to see the opening hours of a bank, but when as you pointed out, the login link is on the home page, there is a security risk. I'd like to see website designs where the two are quite different16:32
timelesscrashanddie: fwiw, in my survey i've only seen a couple of different bank uis16:32
timelessand they're all pretty bad16:32
crashanddietell me about it16:32
timelessthe problem w/ the open hours bit16:32
crashanddietimeless, that's where OTPs get handy ;)16:32
timelessis that i could use it to setup a fake branch too16:32
* RST38h sarts suspecting what just happened16:32
RST38hNokia has got a special update utility for poor US residents that does not support 580016:33
crashanddieRST38h, I sart you as well16:33
crashanddietimeless, that's probably pushing it a bit16:33
timeless<s:rst38h> <v:sarts> <o:suspecting what> <*p: just happened>16:33
timelesscrashanddie: perhaps16:34
timelessdid you read the washtech one about symantec?16:34
timelessa guy had a password sniffer16:34
timelessand needed support16:34
timelessso they had him pay for it by entering his CC info into the web form16:34
crashanddietimeless, nope16:34
timelessthe alternative is that the bank lists hours of operation + a phone number16:35
timelessand the customer calls the phone number16:35
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timelessthese things are all quite doable16:35
crashanddieyou could very well impersonate the bank on the phone as well ;)16:36
timelessthe number could e.g. be a disposable/stolen phone16:36
timelessright :)16:36
timelessbut the point is that if there's an http page16:36
crashanddiechallenge response16:36
timelessyou can give out an abitrary phone number16:36
timelessand use that16:37
crashanddiedual factor (ssl v3) authentication16:37
timelessis the symantec thing16:37
timeless(scroll to top, sorry about anchor)16:37
timelesswell, depends how it's done16:37
timelessif the auth has a time window, then maybe16:38
timelessbut what if the customer has never used the phone gateway before?16:38
timeless(if the information is not time limited [time based random number generator])16:38
timeless(.... then you can MITM it!)16:38
alteregoWell, I've setup a blog .. Now what? >_<16:38
timeless=> alterego16:39
timelessit helped me :)16:39
timelessanyway, i understand why people might want http services16:39
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timelessbut mostly it's because they can't get their other stuff done right16:39
timeless(caching, session management, state, whatever)16:40
crashanddieKnowing there's an attack on services that allows session highjacking for services that just do authentication through SSL and then revert to HTTP16:40
crashanddieI just feel website owners should learn what is sensible information and what is not16:41
timelessanyway, my view is clearly that banks shouldn't offer any login links from http pages16:42
timelessespecially not to servers whose domains don't precisely match the http domain16:42
timelessif the domain differs16:42
timelessit's too easy for someone to get my<domain> as a shadow of <domain>16:42
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timelessand most of the banks i've seen don't use EV16:43
timelessand i don't think i've seen any explain why EV is important16:43
crashanddietimeless, couldn't agree more with that16:43
timeless(not that i want them to)16:43
timelessthe last thing we need is http pages explaining why you should care about security16:43
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timeless(because obviously an http equiv could rewrite that text...)16:43
crashanddieor someone on the same network16:44
crashanddieor mitm16:44
timelesstry clicking 'login'16:44
crashanddieor whatever attack is all the rage these days16:44
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infobotBender : Light a fire for a man and he's warm for a night.  Light a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...16:47
crashanddietimeless, looks like there identity vault is down16:47
timelesswhatever that is :(16:47
crashanddieidentity vault == directory (edirectory, active directory, ldap, whatever) that holds the information about their users/clients16:48
timeless         nbytes = 0x5a4205816:48
* timeless sighs16:48
crashanddieI'm out16:49
timelesshave a good week16:49
crashanddiealmost 4PM, good time to wake up16:49
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sp3000zemanta should have a reverse feature where you give it pictures and it writes your content for you16:50
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RST38h~curse NSU17:14
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, NSU !17:14
qwerty12_N800Heh, i remember instaling NSU on a friend's computer. the installer wab17:16
qwerty12_N800nted 256mb of ram so i had to use orca on the deb17:16
qwerty12_N800sorry, stylus slipped.17:16
RST38hLooks like Download! only has limited time demos...hehe17:17
RST38hThey all say Free too , until you run them17:18
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b-manStskeeps, you there?17:20
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rzrcan you suggest a 3d app to test on 770 ?17:36
disco_stunokia tablets lack 3d support17:40
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timelesstechnically maemo lacks it :)17:43
timelessin theory, someone w/ a couple million dollars could get 3d support w/ the tablet hardware :)17:44
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GAN800Well, software works.17:51
b1ackdeathhas anyone come in to problems when running a program in xterm and then when ur done not able to see you text when typing?17:51
b1ackdeathi did17:51
denny(command, fixes messed up fonts and stuff)17:51
b1ackdeathi using qwerty12's osso-xterm upgrade and even clear and reset dosnt work io have totally exit xterm to get it to work again17:52
b1ackdeathlike the clear it and run the command but that text dosnt come back tho17:53
Stskeepsb-man: mm?17:53
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Stskeepsb-man: , test image to test (problem with tpuchscreen tap though)17:55
rzrdid i miss something ?17:56
rzrcan you suggest a 3d app to test on 770 ?17:56
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GAN8001Hrm, blog posts to write today.18:05
lcukrzr, gtk uses 3d border effects on their widgets18:06
alteregoI just set me up a blog :)18:07
alteregoJust playing with it now. I'm not really much of a writer so I'll probably write quite a bit of scht ..18:07
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GAN8001alterego, Maemo-related?18:17
GAN8001Hehe, I recognize the scrollbars on nokiausa from Maemo. ;)18:18
alteregoWell, it has a maemo section :)18:22
GAN8001alterego, then: ;)18:22
alteregoWell, I will. But I need something to write about first :P18:24
GAN8001Fair enough.18:26
GAN8001Contract up in February, wonder if Nokia will have any decent, subsidized AT&T phones out by then.18:34
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alteregoI've got an N95, couldn't be any happier with it really :)18:34
alteregoWorks well with tablet, works well with laptop :D18:35
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GAN8001I'd do a high-end Nokia phone if I could afford it.18:38
GAN8001Looks like it'll probably be down to a Samsung something, though.18:38
GAN8001lcuk, to Symbian?18:44
GAN8001Pfft, I was never loyal to them. :P18:44
GAN8001I have a Samsung A717 right now.18:44
crashanddieGAN800, 1/ that sounds like a boeing; 2/ traitor to Nokia18:46
GAN8001crashanddie, what makes you think it isn't a Boeing. ;)18:46
* GAN8001 really likes the Boeing 717.18:46
GAN8001crashanddie, I don't have any loyalty to Nokia either. :P Just Maemo.18:46
lcukfits in your pocket, always on communications18:46
crashanddieyou better have some loyalty towards Nokia18:47
crashanddieseeing in which seat you're seated, bitch18:47
GAN8001lcuk, I got one of those Mary Poppins® Pants.18:47
* alterego chuckles.18:47
lcuk:O gan, so you are goatse - keep everything in your back pocket18:47
GAN8001crashanddie, that doesn't follow.18:47
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GAN8001Nokia's neither the person who elected me nor the person who created the position.18:48
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crashanddieNokia is a company18:48
crashanddienot a person...18:48
infobotGAN8001 meant: Nokia's neither the one who elected me nor the one who created the position.18:49
t_s_ocompanies have all the rights of a person...18:49
alterego - My first blog post :)18:49
GAN8001Anyway, there's nothing at all that says I should be loyal to Nokia. :P18:49
t_s_oor at least when it comes to markets and property...18:49
r0dentt_s_o: sort of, they can't get married18:49
* GAN8001 hits the thumbs over and over.18:49
t_s_or0dent: nor vote, but neither is really important to a "being" that can live forever...18:50
lcukr0dent, thats only because no company has ever tried it18:50
woglindehi lcuk18:50
crashanddieI've seen companies fuck one another though18:50
lcukhiya woglinde18:50
lcukcrash we see companies get into bed together all the time18:50
GAN8001What about mergers? Or a strategic partnership?18:50
r0dentactually, it's part of the law that they can't vote or get married. if someone did try it, it would not stand up in court18:50
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crashanddier0dent, what law?18:51
r0denti don't know, rule 34?18:51
crashanddiewhat country?18:51
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alteregoGrrr, why can't it just generate an RSS feed for posts under a certain category! >:(18:53
lcukr0dent, rule 34 :: microsoft and apple on vibrating massage chairs18:53
b-manhello Mr.Nokia, how are you doing today?...... LOL18:54
lcuk(ready to get it in :D)18:54
lcukon even18:54
lcukhow freudian18:54
crashanddieI was thinking the same18:54
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lcukwhat? you wanna get it on with jobs or gates?18:55
Mouseyah ya18:55
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lcukdo i put new liqbase into old liqbase to prove the concept or just carry on working the widget till its viable18:56
woglindewhats new?18:56
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lcukive been reworking the inner sanctum of liqbase18:56
lcukto allow for dyniamic loading and sharing of media and stuff18:56
lcukyeah between instances18:57
woglindewh the heck I should run lcuk twice18:57
lcukthere was no reference tracking on the objects so if 500 sketches used a single image i would have needed to load the image 500 times18:57
lcukor risk having double frees or bad refs18:58
woglindeso you are doing oo-programming now18:58
lcukso i reworked everything so theres a core media library where i can ask for and if already loaded it comes from the cache18:58
woglindeyepp thats the way to go18:58
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woglindehm later I will programm a little bit jni18:59
woglindefor gps thinkies18:59
lcukyeah i knew that from the start18:59
crashanddieyou mean you only did that now?18:59
crashanddieHow... Disappointing... :D18:59
lcukonly now ive got the tabletpc i might actually consider something which was not viable before18:59
lcukthe tiles have always been like that, but i underestimate how many style objects i would need19:00
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bakarati've installed scratchbox but i ran into a couple of problems, the armel thingy wouldn't install, only the i386 one19:01
bakaratand it was missing just about all the needed repo's19:01
woglindebakarat did you read the install faq?19:01
bakarati've been piecing together the necessary repo's but i still can't get anything working really19:01
bakaratwoglinde, parts ye19:01
lcukbakarat, with the SDK you dont need extra repos or anything19:01
bakaratlcuk, but...nothing is working19:02
woglindebakarat then follow the install document to the end19:02
bakaratbasically i wanted to preview the maemo-mapper (to see how well it functions) before i actually go out and buy me a maemo-based device :>19:02
lcukthen: Scratchbox :: you're doing it wrong19:02
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lcukhow are you gonna do mapping without gps?19:02
lcukor touch testing without touchscreen19:03
woglindebakarat the internal gps is not so good19:03
lcukor speed testing without speed19:03
lcuklol internal gps on scratchbox is worse19:03
woglindefir in car use you have to be near a window19:03
woglindelcuk ah right19:03
woglindelocgical error19:03
lcukdont be :)19:03
bakaratlcuk, well actually, i was hoping to get some functionality without an actual gps receiver atm19:03
woglindescratchbox dont show you how the gps inside the tablet works19:03
crashanddiebakarat, you'll be able to download maps19:03
crashanddiebakarat, and view them on your screen19:04
lcukwell, i suppose scratchbox gps DOES give an accurate view of the n810 gps19:04
bakaratwell maybe i can just ask here without testing it: i am currently looking for a gps device (needs to be able to calculate routes and preferably "say" stuff like "go left")19:04
bakarati don't really want to buy a tomtom since...well it's only a gps :>19:04
bakarati thought the nokia n series would be cool19:04
bakaratdoes maemo-mapper offer a good alternative?19:04
lcukn810 + additional purchase of wayfinder has worked for us when we need it19:05
bakarati rather not use wayfinder19:05
woglindelcuk uh you bought it19:05
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lcukwe have bought 2 monthly licenses for wayfinder in the last 12 months19:05
lcuki dont need gps to get me to work etc19:05
bakarathow does maemo-mapper stack up against dedicated gps devices?19:05
woglindelcuk is it working reasoanble?19:05
lcukworks really well woglinde, my missus loves having todd in the car with her \@/19:06
woglindebakarat do you need routing?19:06
bakaratwoglinde, yes, the primary reason for buying a gps atm19:06
ShadowJK_maemo mapper seems a bit complicated for navigation19:06
lcukwe wiggle when he says "at the traffic circle"19:06
crashanddieI'd rather use the official Map app than maemo mapper for navigation19:06
lcukim gonna replace todd with K.I.T.T though19:06
crashanddiehands down19:06
woglindelcuk lol19:07
crashanddietraffic circle?19:07
lcukand cos we are in uk, theres loads of them19:07
lcuktodd is american19:07
lcukbut tracy wont let me change it19:07
crashanddielcuk, don't come to france19:07
crashanddielcuk, they invented the fucking roundabout19:07
lcukno fear there19:07
woglinderoundabout are great19:08
bakaratso guys, is there any open source software that runs well on nokia n810 that is a reasonable alternative to stuff like tomtom?19:08
lcukwe just said19:08
crashanddiebakarat, no, and there is a good reason for that19:08
lcukis tomtom free?19:08
bakaratwayfinder licenses costs almost as much as a dedicated gps unit19:08
crashanddiebakarat, bollocks19:08
lcukwayfindeer license cost me so far £1819:08
crashanddiebakarat, $100 for 3 years of navigation19:08
lcukfor 1 years actual used nav19:09
woglindeat my university is a project for routing based on osm19:09
woglindebut it will be a midlet19:09
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crashanddieyeah, but that's just a project19:09
bakaratbut how bad is maemo-mapper at routing?19:09
crashanddieand unless they get huge funding, they access to commercial maps is going to be stupid19:09
bakarati mean does it basically not work?19:09
infobotcrashanddie meant: and unless their get huge funding, they access to commercial maps is going to be stupid19:09
woglindeosm will be better at some point19:09
lcukbakarat, i believe it uses whichever map repository you configure it to, so if google maps is crap then so is maemo mapper19:10
bakaratlcuk, its routing capabilities are not really bound to the repo it uses right?19:10
crashanddieand that's really what it's all about... Anyone can have a pretty accurate routing application, but what you really need is the commercial background and guts to do all the processing19:10
crashanddiebakarat, the routing capabilities are downloaded from the internet IIRC19:10
lcukyes, really it is (i believe):: maemo mapper is an image based mapper19:10
bakaratcrashanddie, uh...while on the road? :|19:10
lcukrouting requires vectors19:10
crashanddiebakarat, yes19:10
crashanddiebakarat, you have to download the routes beforehand19:11
* lcuk loves vectors19:11
bakaratcrashanddie, well internet is not exactly...accessible from mi car atm :>19:11
lcukor on the road over the wireles19:11
crashanddiebakarat, if you make a wrong turn, you have to connect again and download again19:11
bakaratcrashanddie, ye ok, i can live with that19:11
bakaratcrashanddie, hmm19:11
lcukbakarat, if you want a 100% fulltime purposful GPS unit, go and buy a cheap one from the shop19:11
lcukdedicated, you will get more pleasure from it19:11
lcukbut if you want an allround machine which is capable of much more besides just mapping, go with nokia :)19:12
crashanddiethe GPS is an enabler on the n810, not a selling point19:12
trbsanybody knows how big a gdbm file can become (as used for sources in meamo mapper ?)19:12
lcukbakarat, the built in "map" in n810 works without a license and it shows you the same wayfinder maps and highlights places of interest and letts you get to places, but if you NEED the extras of routing and voice overs then you buy a weekly/monthly/yearly subscription19:13
bakaratthe voice-overs are not too important19:13
bakaratthe routing is19:13
lcukhow often do you NEED directions?19:14
bakaratwell i am working as a consultant19:14
bakaratso basically everytime i go to a new customer... :>19:14
lcukthen get a dedicated unit19:14
crashanddieso am I, I don't need a GPS for that19:14
lcukor pay up19:14
bakaratwhat exactly is the use of a gps unit if it doesn't show routing?19:14
bakarati mean, other then "you're here"... what does it do? :|19:14
lcukfor using in other applications19:14
woglindebakarat track your way19:15
GAN8001Personally, I use Maemo Mapper to give me access to satellite images while boating and hiking19:15
bakaratbtw, the tomtom software has a linux-based version ye? does that run on maemo?19:15
GAN8001As well as for generating tracks.19:15
woglindecomplete openstreetmap19:15
crashanddiefind out where your unit is when it's been stolen19:15
GAN8001GPS has tons of uses beyond just routing. . . .19:15
woglindecrashanddie bah thats a way to optimistic19:15
crashanddiewoglinde, actually it isn't19:16
lcukbakarat, why are you against offering the developers of wayfinder maps some money to keep you updated?19:16
crashanddiewoglinde, I just wish I had programmed this some time ago19:16
crashanddielcuk, cuz the world is supposed to be freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee19:16
crashanddielcuk, and people should work for freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee19:16
lcukno it isnt19:16
crashanddieso that he can work and make moneeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyy19:16
lcukahhh, hes got a moneyclip19:16
lcukand braces19:17
crashanddiebakarat, buy a GPS unit and expense it ffs19:17
lcukhes the first highly paid consultant ive heard off that cannot put something like this onto a clients bill19:17
bakaratcrashanddie, hehe, will have to ask if i can expense it :>19:17
bakarati only just started out19:17
crashanddiebakarat, quite frankly, you won't need a GPS unit19:18
bakaratcrashanddie, o yes i do :|19:18
lcukok, so just starting out, you should be able to take it out of your salary, what is it 35,00019:18
lcukper month?19:18
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bakaratlol :>19:18
lcukdo you have pointy hair?19:18
bakarati have the money to buy it...just not the inclination to spend a crapload of money on a unit that basically acts like a black box with one specific function19:18
crashanddiebakarat, I don't know what your field of work is, but most of the time, just check on google maps where it is, find the nearest tube station, and train yourself at finding shite19:18
bakarati like to be in control of the stuff i own and preferably combine as much functionality into one device as possible19:19
crashanddiebakarat, it's what I do, and I get around like that even in the Ukraine ffs :P19:19
lcukbakarat, im sure you could find the £80 for a dedicated unit behind your sofa19:19
GAN8001GPS units are cheap these days.19:19
bakaratcrashanddie, trains don't get everywhere quite as fast as a car will get you, at least in this country :>19:19
crashanddiebakarat, what country is that then?19:19
bakaratcrashanddie, belgium19:19
bakaratcrashanddie, for instance, one of my potential future customers is bout 2 hours by train, 1 hour by car19:19
crashanddiebakarat, company?19:20
lcukok, convo over im goin hackin. bbl19:20
bakarat... :|19:20
crashanddielcuk, have fun19:20
lcukas always19:20
bakaratcrashanddie, cronos19:20
woglindebye lcuk19:20
crashanddiethere's consultancy for what CMS system to use? :P19:21
bakaratcrashanddie, anyway, just printing a google maps image can be pretty hard if you have to be like in the center of brussels19:21
crashanddiebakarat, I live in London19:21
crashanddiebakarat, and come by without a problem :)19:22
bakaratcrashanddie, nice :D19:22
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bakaratcrashanddie, i may be spatially challenged then ;)19:22
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crashanddienee yo, gewoon maar een belg ;)19:22
bakaratcrashanddie, where do you work then?19:22
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bakaratleuk ;)19:23
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crashanddie_bakarat, actually it quite is19:35
bakaratcrashanddie_, how so?19:35
bakarati have some experience with path finding in games etc19:35
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crashanddie_the algorithm isn't the problem19:35
bakarati can't imagine it being much more difficult then a sort of node-to-node path?19:35
bakaratwhat is?19:35
crashanddie_bakarat, as I said, you need to have the maps that are up to date and that have enough details to allow you to apply the algorithm19:35
crashanddie_and maps are expensive19:35
crashanddie_you could have the best routing software in the world19:35
crashanddie_open source or not19:35
crashanddie_it wouldn't be free, you'd still have to pay for the maps...19:35
bakaratcrashanddie_, but that's where the open street map thingy comes in, no?19:35
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crashanddie_I rarely had a look at an OS map where it wasn't between 10 and 50m off target from the GPS data19:36
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* ENTERANICK [W2I=000:u:0:000:]19:37
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crashanddie_anyway people19:41
crashanddie_have a good one, ttyalllater19:42
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lcukok, i have a dilemma20:17
lcuki want to develop simultainiously for 2 different targets and run the app on 2 different machines after compilation20:18
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GAN8001Bugzilla's down, the wiki's down, the lists are borked.20:25 is falling apart.20:25
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alteregoClassic Christmas maemo shinanigans :)20:25
GAN8001s/maemo/Maemo/g ;)20:25
GAN8001alterego, :P20:26
alteregoI can't believe you just threw me a link about formatting 'Maemo' correctly :P20:27
alteregoOr is it: Maemo (tm) :)20:27
solmumahaalterego: just when i lost all hope20:27
solmumahamerry christmas to you too20:27
GAN8001alterego, a google cache link even. :P20:28
alteregoDoes that mean your information is out-of-date? :D20:28
GAN8001alterego, but I figured you might've missed it and might care. ;)20:28
GAN8001Hope not.20:28
GAN8001Unless Nokia's taken the wiki down to s/Maemo/Window Mobile/g20:29
solmumahaalterego: how do those differ from 0.3?20:29
alteregosolmumaha: basically, functionally they don't.20:29
alteregoThe difference is in how they're packaged and I've cleaned up the source code.20:29
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alteregoBasically, I'm doing spring cleaning on the code, getting myself familiar with it again. Then I'll start working on more features.20:30
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solmumahagregale is now out?20:30
alteregoThose packages are just maemo4/chinook/diablo20:31
solmumahaalterego: thanks a lot! i really appreciate this20:33
alteregoIt's not problem, I do really want to get back into it :)20:34
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qwerty12_N800hi Stskeeps21:12
Stskeeps'lo qwerty12_N800, GAN, etc21:12
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: am i wrong or doesn't googles normal apps work with android / they arent distributable with a new image?21:15
Stskeepslike maps, calendar and so on :P just saw some odd posts21:16
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, not really sure but i think google only lets those be used with a "official" device21:18
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qwerty12_N800but i think the emulator has them which makes the above sound odd21:18
Stskeepswell sdk is a different animal21:19
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Stskeepswb b-man21:28
b-manso how was the installer?21:28
Stskeepswell i asked if the simple installer works perfectly :) i pasted an url image earlier to something you can test with21:31
Stskeepsb-man: , test image to test (problem with touchscreen tap though)21:31
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b-manok, thanks!21:32
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lcukemma, is your cat swinging from your net connection again?21:55
b-man@ Stskeeps; i herd that you were discontinueing the unrealIRCd progect;    - that's too  bad. :(21:57
GAN800i herd cats21:58
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Stskeepsb-man: meh, i'm quitting, a different thing21:59
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Stskeepsb-man: but yes, that'll be the effective thing happening21:59
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, just 23 posts? disgraceful. :p22:00
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i loathed the forums. not my call to start them22:00
Stskeepsi sat in the support channel from when i started the project, which was 9 years ago, so :P22:01
GAN800qwerty12, what's X-Fade up to? 12 posts?22:01
GAN800The SSU thread was just thanks whoring.22:02
qwerty12_N800GAN800, ha. I think you should sort him out ;P22:02
GAN800I will if we don't get our lists back. :P22:03
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qwerty12_N800Hehe, my inbox is home to junk, m-c & m-d make it worthwhile :D22:03
Stskeepseverything stops working over the holidays, eh? :P22:03
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GAN800Stskeeps, same as last year22:05
Stskeepsat least they aren't releasing a SSU at same time? :P22:06
b-manStskeeps; what did you get for christmas?22:07
b-mani didn't get my laptop ;p22:07
b-man(yes, i know, i'm verry, verry random)22:10
Stskeepsb-man: book on polish history and a cable to extend 3.5mm stereo.. and another xmas with a parent alive, so it was good22:10
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b-manmy parents bough me a dum rc helocopter.... :P22:11
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Stskeepsmeh. slap a beagleboard on it22:12
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Vulcanisnot a miinigun?22:12
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b-manno, a toy helocopter....22:12
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b-manbut i'm still eventually going to get my laptop :)22:14
Stskeepsphew, tslib fixed agai22:15
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Stskeepsthe new dialogs in fremantle are interesting22:17
b-manin what ways are thay different?22:18
Vulcanisb-man: What laptop?22:18
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JaffaStskeeps: the close buttons (IIRC)?22:18
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StskeepsJaffa: that too, but also popping up from the bottom22:19
JaffaOh, screenshots?22:19
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Jaffaor videos22:19
Stskeepslemme see if meiz has any..22:19
b-man@ Vulcanis; i'm planning to buy a dell studio 15....22:19
qwerty12_N800Yerga's got a crapton of them somewhere - screenshots that is22:19
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Stskeepsi should see if matchbox 2 will work now..22:20
Stskeepswe use matchbox1 in mer atm22:20
* RST38h yawns22:20
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woglindehi rst22:26
* GAN800 can't wait for Fremantle.22:26
Stskeepsi will <3 a2dp :P22:26
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RST38hhey, woglinde, gan, sts22:31
Stskeepsevening, RST38h22:31
zakkmMorning guys :)22:32
Stskeepsb-man: any girl with trying with the tar.gz?22:33
Stskeepstalk about a freudian slip22:33
Tu13eszakkm: yo22:33
Stskeepsany luck trying with the tar.gz and your simple installer? :P22:33
zakkmhows mer coming along?22:34
Stskeepswe can make images now, which is a good thing :P22:34
Tu13eszakkm: so i got NITdroid installed22:34
zakkmTu13es: he annouced a new update yesterday thats coming22:35
zakkmStskeeps: does that mean i can try it out now?22:35
Tu13esI don't know what to do with it now that it's installed22:35
zakkmTu13es: download android apps to it? :P22:35
b-man@Stskeeps testing right now....22:35
Tu13eszakkm: do I have to grab the apps on PC and then transfer them?22:36
Tu13esI don't know where to begin with apps :P22:36
Stskeepszakkm: getting closer and closer..22:36
zakkmTu13es: just download with the builtin browser and after download it would install it22:36
Tu13esah, interesting22:36
Tu13esany recommendation of where to download from?22:36
zakkmmuch like maemo and "install" buttons22:36
Tu13esyeah22:36 ? :P22:36
* qwerty12_N800 installs through adb, computer's browser is faster :P22:36
zakkmhas meebo ;p22:36
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zakkmhavent looked much, been waiting for update.. suppose to have "dualboot" from android and maemo22:37
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Tu13esaha, that would be cool22:37
RST38hHeh, new Nokia phones are full of junkware22:38
RST38hThere is "Nokia Download!" which offers "free" applications that all require you to pay for registration22:38
RST38hThere is "my Nokia" offering to subscribe you to SMS messages22:38
GAN8001You can't wipe that shit out, either, can you>22:39
RST38hThere is some weird menu that asks you to register for Ovi, Flickr, and some other crap22:39
RST38hI probably can, just didn't get to it yet22:39
RST38hMove it to a new folder titled trash22:39
lcukis that a roundabout waying of saying you bought a new phone :D22:40
RST38hBut it is incredible how numerous and badly coordinated this crap is22:40
qwerty12_N800See if the hacks work on the phone, having to sign shit sucks ballbags22:40
RST38hlcuk: Well, that 5800 I ordered for my wife arrived22:40
RST38hqwerty: most apps will run just fine self-signed22:40
RST38hlcuk: Had wonderful quasi-erotic intercourse with NSU today (required me to edit the registry and run win installer clenaup tool suggested by qwerty)22:41
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lcukheh RST38h22:42
* lcuk is fighting with library definitions and locations22:43
woglindelcuk hehe22:43
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Stskeepshmm, got matchbox2 to compile. i wonder what we can do with that..23:01
qwerty12_N800Using it comes on the top ten suggestions on my list :P23:02
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alteregoUsing it where? fremantle?23:05
qwerty12_N800le Mer of course  :)23:05
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Stskeepsit needed some dependancies before but it compiles on armel now23:05
infobotrumour has it, mer is and
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GAN800Community backport/sideport of Fremantle.23:06
alteregoBit of a rubbish name :P23:07
Stskeepsalterego: Maemo Reconstructed -> M-R -> Mer23:07
GAN800Gonna get yer ass kicked.23:07
alteregoMoR (Maemo on Rails)?23:08
* alterego chuckles.23:08
StskeepsMaL, Maemo and Lasers23:08
qwerty12_N800Ruby  overexpose :)23:09
pupniki have some free schotch bonnet pepper paste23:11
pupnikif someone wants23:11
alteregoI thought the FIASCO format was already understood.23:13
qwerty12_N800OxFFFF can make them but i dunno if the images produced are 'correct'. the nokia too to generate them may get released23:16
infobotqwerty12_N800 meant: OxFFFF can make them but i dunno if the images produced are 'correct'. the nokia tool to generate them may get released23:16
alteregoWhat's "OHM"?23:16
Stskeepsopen hardware manager, basically it will replace what mce and dsme did before23:17
Stskeepsgoogle for it23:17
alteregoYeah, googling the acronym would have been a bad idea though ;)23:17
Stskeepsyeah :P23:17
alteregoInteresting, it's gonna be a freedesktop thing?23:18
Stskeepsyeah, think that's the idea - but with some closed plugins23:18
Stskeepswhich is quite a step up from a closed source daemon23:19
Stskeepswaiting for nokia's stuff still though23:19
alteregoYeah, still. I wonder why Nokia keeps chosing hardware that requires these closed source components? :/23:19
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Stskeepsalterego: well that's life in hw business :P23:20
moontigerhey Stskeeps23:20
qwerty12_N800alterego, probably works in their favour anyway, they are a company after all23:20
alteregoI think they do it because they use the same chips in their phones.23:20
moontigerdoes anybody know if the rotation thingy works with the new ssu ?23:21
Stskeepsevening moontiger23:21
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* moontiger lags to hell and back23:23
alteregoWell "Mer" sounds like a pretty neat idea.23:24
* Stskeeps waits for the "but" ;)23:24
alteregoThough, sounds like a lot of work ..23:24
Stskeepsyou'd think so, really23:24
Stskeepsit is actually easy to get a sane hildon going23:24
Stskeeps (look through these)23:25
alteregoWhat's the current status? Or is it still in the ether at the moment?23:25
Stskeepsgetting closer to getting a -good- demo image that we can get people working on. it'd be a base hildon desktop probably :P23:26
GAN8001alterego, well there's an open wifi driver for WLAN on both the N8x0 and RX-51 anyway23:26
GAN8001The rest of the hardware stuff is either "differentiation" (MCE) or legal liability issues (BME).23:26
zakkmhows the battery life on mer compared to maemo?23:27
zakkmand speed? :D23:27
zakkmStskeeps: as soon as you got a full image to try, im so in for testing :)23:28
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zakkmdid you guys make a theme for mer? it looks nice23:28
Stskeepszakkm: speed is harmed by the lack of manual updates/XDamage like stuff really. battery life, i'm keeping out of that until OHM is out, to align with fremantle23:28
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Stskeepszakkm: that's one of the nokia themes from diablo i think23:28
Stskeepsthe pretty theme, that is23:29
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zakkmit so doesnt look like it, at least not official theme23:29
Stskeepsthe background is different23:29
Stskeepsand the left thing i think23:29
zakkm <-- so does not match any nokia theme23:30
zakkmat least none i know of23:30
Stskeepszakkm: plankton23:30
Stskeepswith his own background23:30
GAN8001Yeah, Plankton. . . .23:30
GAN8001Official Nokia open source theme23:30
zakkmlast time i used plankton it didnt look like that?23:30
GAN8001Question mark?23:31
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zakkmoh sorry23:31
zakkm would this work?23:31
zakkmid rather 12pt23:31
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GAN8001Not for OS200823:32
qwerty12_N800Get it from the sdk repo and you can edit the gtkrc to make it 12pt for diablo23:33
zakkmwhere is the sdk repo?23:34
qwerty12_N800in this instance,
qwerty12_N800Nokia also have a theme which is Echo but in red, hated it23:36
zakkmi tried the old os2007 one and it made it plain gtk theme ;p23:36
zakkmshould i install that deb and then edit gtkrc on the tablet ?23:37
qwerty12_N800You won't believe the lengths i went to try and get adria in os2007...23:37
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zakkmwhats adria?23:37
alteregoWhere's the instructions for installing maemo SDK under sbox2?23:38
qwerty12_N800yeah, edit the right one in /usr/share/themes/plankton/gtk-2.0/gtkrc23:38
zakkmwow plain gtk finger keyboard looks weird :D23:38
GAN8001qwerty12_N800, :shudder:23:39
alteregoAh, found it.23:39
qwerty12_N800GAN8001, :P23:39
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zakkmwould 10 or 11pt work? well?23:42
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Stskeepsi'm either going blind or i can't find where matchbox is started in fremantle sdk.23:45
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zakkmwhat line should i look for in gtkrc?23:46
zakkmnokia Sans 16.75 ?23:47
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zakkmwhat would be my ssh password?23:52
GAN8001Why are people on Bugzilla so difficult?23:53
alteregoThese are some really interesting questions zakkm ...23:53
zakkmsorry :(23:53
zakkmheh i needed to change root on my nokia23:54
GAN8001andre__, ping?23:55
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* zakkm thinks nano should be added to extras23:58

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