IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2008-11-29

StskeepsRST38h: yeah, and a pregnant woman lost her baby as well00:00
qwerty12_N800Greedy motherfuckers.00:00
Stskeepseconomic crisis, eh :P00:01
aquatixwell, pumping some money around only helps00:02
aquatixbut consumers are weird00:03
RST38hDarwin at work. He never sleeps.00:03
RST38hFor the first time, Planned Parenthood in Indiana is offering gift certificates. The organization said a big increase in calls and visits from newly unemployed and uninsured Hoosiers prompted what it calls the unusual, yet practical gift option.00:03
doc|homeaquatix: only helps as long as they can afford it. Credit cards don't count.00:05
RST38hSts: Here go the babies00:05
qwerty12_N800For those who really can't afford tablet getting shut off by mce so soon : dbus-send --system --type=signal /com/nokia/bme/signal :P00:06
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i've had deblet run my tablet down to a vegetative state00:06
RST38hqwerty: How much extra time does it give? =)00:06
Stskeepshad to pull battery after it died00:06
qwerty12_N800RST38h, no idea :P. but useful if you need to finish quickly typing something..,00:07
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, heh00:07
RST38hSpeaking of dbus...Is there a list of system dbus messages somewhere?00:08
RST38hI mean, messages accepted by all the standard firmware stuff00:08
aquatixdoc|home: myeah, the US economy is weird as everything is on a loan (see credit cards instead of debit cards)00:10
doc|homeaquatix: so is its currency, it all has to get paid back at some stage00:10
RST38hThat is not economy, that is stupidity00:10
doc|homethat's what happens when you have a federal reserve that cuts interest rates to nothing and a government which gives out money to stimulate the economy00:11
* RST38h wonders whether this will eventually end up with indentured servitude00:11
doc|homeRST38h: what do you think the national debt is?00:11
doc|homesorry, that sounded confrontational, it wasn't meant to00:12
RST38hI actually mean literal indentured servitude00:12
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RST38hWhere debtor's life eventually becomes the property of his lender00:13
doc|homearen't people already in that position with taxes and the government?00:13
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doc|homeyou have the choice of not paying taxes?00:13
RST38hYou pay taxes for the right to live in a country to which you pay taxes00:14
RST38hDon't like it? Move somewhere else00:14
doc|homenot really, even if you decide to sell all your assets to leave the US you're forced to pay an even bigger cut to the government00:14
doc|homeand where else is there that doesn't have taxes?00:14
RST38hWell, that is your task to find00:15
Stskeepsanarctica? :P00:15
Stskeepsthe moon? :P00:15
doc|homesure, just like finding a master who won't whip me00:15
RST38hAs to leaving US, I am aquainted with the law and if you get rid of US citizenship you do not need to pay US taxes00:15
RST38hIf you live outside US but retain citizenship, you only need to pay taxes on anything above $80k00:16
doc|homethere's a law, or at least a plan for a law, to force you to pay X years taxes if you give up citizen ship00:16
RST38hSts: Somali will probably do the job00:16
RST38hdoc: When it becomes a law, let me know00:16
* doc|home not sure why he put a space in there00:16
doc|homeRST38h: ...00:16
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RST38hThe two penguins have started placing stones at the feet of parents before waddling away with their eggs, in a bid to hide their theft... But the deception has been noticed by other penguins at the zoo, who have ostracised the gay couple from their group.00:27
RST38hDailyRotten is heavy on parenting tonight00:29
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univac_siema AStorm01:34
univac_masz n-ke? ;d01:34
AStormthis channel is in English last I heard :>01:34
AStormyes, so?01:35
* univac_ 2 ;p01:35
AStormI'd like some more info about getting maemo to start öy init script01:35
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AStormI wrote one, dumped it into init.d, added proper symlinks from rc.<somenumber>01:37
AStormyet it still isn't started01:37
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samr7hello all01:40
samr7hi astorm01:40
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samr7I'm developing an audio application01:41
AStormhmm, with my ondemand settings on, fennec is much more snappy01:41
samr7and am looking for some explanations of how sound works on Maemo01:41
* AStorm loves its clickzoom01:41
samr7ex: does Skype have good quality audio?01:42
AStormwell, it's mostly esound on top of alsa01:42
AStormgood enough01:42
samr7it's full duplex?01:42
AStormalthough it uses a subpar codec01:42
AStormuhm... there would be no point in half duplex01:42
samr7lol, good01:42
samr7does it provide good sound latency?01:42
AStormi's skype 1.401:43
samr7what backend does it use, ESD?01:43
AStormno idea01:43
AStormprobably esd01:43
AStormcan't use alsa directly while esound is active01:43
AStormmight be using gstreamer though01:43
AStormbut I don't think so01:43
samr7everybody is telling me that ALSA is not the way to go, because of how the DSP driver is implemented01:44
samr7and that ESD works a lot better01:44
AStormwell, esd has a dsp resampler01:44
AStormwhich is faster than alsa's01:45
AStormand approx. same quality01:45
AStormwhat I find intriguing is how they hacked esd to provide reasonable latency01:46
AStormit's not meant for that01:46
* samr7 looks up the maemo ESD source code01:47
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samr7ESD certainly blows chunks using ALSA01:48
samr7can't even get it to stream full-duplex without skipping01:49
derfAStorm: Do you know what the latency of the gstreamer interface is?01:49
AStormno idea01:49
AStormtest it01:49
AStormnot bad though apparently01:49
derfTest it with what.01:49
AStormderf, uhm, try full loopback?01:50
AStormand measure time difference01:50
AStormor try small buffers01:50
derfThat sounds like work :)01:50
AStormand seee when it starts to skip01:50
AStormsamr7, this maemo ALSA interface it a bit weird01:51
AStormit looks like 3 sound cards01:51
samr7to which application?01:51
AStormto everything01:52
AStormsee /dev/sound01:52
samr7what does 'aplay -l' think?01:53
samr7alsa-lib is very inconsistent about how it presents devices and plugin configurations, and they need to clean it up01:53
* samr7 doesn't actually have access to an N8x001:54
AStormok, I'll check01:54
AStormno aplay01:55
AStormwell, I'll see if there are alsa-utils in repo01:55
AStormlet me send you /proc/asound/cards01:56
samr7it's got one of those??01:56
samr7which platform are you using?01:56
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AStormit's 2.6.21-omap01:57
AStormthere's but one device01:57
AStorm 0 [EAC            ]: EAC - OMAP24xx EAC01:57
AStormwhich is full-duplex I guess01:57
samr7is that a dummy device maybe?01:58
samr7what's in /dev/snd/ ?01:58
samr7I thought ALSA support was implemented using an alsa-lib plugin that connected to their private, non-ALSA kernel DSP interface01:59
AStormnothing except controlC001:59
samr7ah, so it's a mixer plugin only01:59
AStormso it bypasses alsa and writes through dsp itself01:59
AStormsneaky bastards01:59
samr7that's right, no ALSA kernel driver for PCM.02:00
AStormthere is an alsa driver, fully fledged02:00
samr7there is?02:00
AStormnot enabled, not that there isn't one02:00
AStormI built it with my 2.6.24-omap02:00
samr7how well does it work?02:00
AStormwell enough02:01
AStormit might have been improved02:01
AStorme.g. after mangling gconf, alsa worked02:02
AStormgstreamer through alsa that is02:03
AStorm(and obviously killing esd)02:05
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AStormI will build a newer linux-omap and the free wifi driver02:07
AStormbut that's after I'm done with this other stuff, like handwriting recognition02:07
samr7hm, keeping busy there AStorm02:10
samr7I'm still curious to know precisely what sound interface Skype uses02:10
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AStormesd via esddsp is my bet02:11
AStormor esd directly02:12
AStormno idea if skype 1.4 had that02:12
AStormwe need 2.x... it's so much better02:13
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GAN800 hchkjwjh02:19
GAN800b.laj blnr  nblabjj02:20
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AStormrandom drunken garbage? ;)02:20
* AStorm needs an usb host cable02:21
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Myrttior a cat02:26
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prez00hello.. i have latest updates on n800, email apps constantly stops updating email.  using it with 2 imap accounts, have to kill modest and restart app for it to update..03:00
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prez00aanyone home?03:15
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles, is there a way to supress the dialog when exiting flight mode?05:56
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zakkmanyone here?06:50
AStorm(but lagged)06:51
zakkmwhat would megahoc be in wifi?06:53
disco_stuadhoc ?06:53
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AStormI'd love the clickzoom to be in microB07:14
AStorm(from fennec)07:14
AStormit's great, but other parts of fennec are subpar (yes, it's alpha)07:15
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hellanioI erased without wanting the /var of mine n800 now does not bind plus somebody can help ?07:27
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AStormhellanio, you'll have to reflash or somehow restore /var07:38
hellaniohow to make this of an easy skill? I am a little ineteligente with regard to this.07:40
AStormhm.. there is a guide on internet tablet talk forums and (hopefully correct url)07:41
hellanioAStorm: Reflash without n800 inicialize the system? it only restarts always!07:42
AStormyes, you have to hold task button07:42
AStormone with rectangles07:43
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hellanioi try..  :D07:44
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Chanii was told a while ago that my n810 shipped with a bad partition table on the 2gig flash, but i was too busy to fix it09:05
Chaninow i have time... what's the easiest way? is there a cfdisk package?09:06
johnxI believe the format option in the filemanager will fix it09:06
johnxor if you have a linux desktop you could use gparted09:06
johnxI think cfdisk is available, but you'd need to reformat the partition afterwards or you'd just have different problems09:07
Chanihmm, i never thought of doing it over the usb cable09:07
johnxyeah, that would be fine09:07
qwerty12Yeah, I uploaded cfdisk to extras-devel but if you can do it over a usb cable, it's even easier09:08
Chanibut the filemanager formatter was fastest :) yay, writable again... umm... unless that only reformatted and left the partition table damaged still09:10
johnxI was pretty sure that actually fixed it09:10
Chaniwell, i'll copyy back my data and see what happens09:10
qwerty12You should be alright, I think fanoush said that his card with multiple partitions got deleted and he was back only with one partition :P09:11
qwerty12after using file manager's formatter09:11
Chaniah, so it is the meddling little bastard i need it to be ;)09:12
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Meiz_n810gparted on n810?09:18
johnxprobably in ubuntu :)09:19
Ro9u3oRi noticed a utube video with open office 2.x  running on the n800.  anyone know anything about that?09:19
qwerty12There's penguinbait's gparted but it's pretty big due to the libraries it uses09:19
qwerty12Ro9u3oR, deblet or easy debian09:19
Ro9u3oRis that a app09:20
Meiz_n810sfdisk always shows fatal error cannot read disk drive with my external card.09:21
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Meiz_n810gparted on both computer and tablet works09:21
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qwerty12Meiz_n810, Use the parted (command line version) or cfdisk I put in diablo extras-devel then :P09:21
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Meiz_n810parted seemed to work once  i tried09:22
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prez00does anyone else have email client stop updating?  latest updates on n800, but have to restart modest every so often, two imap accounts,..09:58
johnxare you on the latest version of OS2008?09:59
johnxI used to have that problem, but it works now09:59
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prez00johnx, latest 200809:59
johnxDiablo 35-5?09:59
disco_stumodest is awful10:00
johnxeh, works fine here10:01
disco_stuliked the one in Chinook10:01
johnxIt could never even connect to my mail server10:01
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disco_stuworked fine to me10:02
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johnxthen I have no idea, sorry10:02
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prez00recommendations for another email client?10:03
johnxClaws mail maybe?10:03
prez00will try it..10:05
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zaphehe, Fedora 10 new graphical boot screen remembers ITOS very much (centered logo and progress bar at very bottom)11:27
qwerty12Plymouth looks way more cool than usplash :(11:28
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* lcuk yawns11:38
mlpugis there dbus introspection utility that would list dbus services and their interfaces that are up-and-running in this device at this moment11:40
mlpugdbus-monitor only outputs messages sent to the bus?11:40
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Stskeepsmorning lcuk11:56
lcukbleurg good mornin sts11:57
* Stskeeps passes lcuk some coffee11:57
lcuk:D excellent11:57
lcukim surprised by how much i slept11:57
lcuki spent most of yesterday in bed and then zonked again at about 8pm11:58
Stskeepsflu or just burn out?12:00
lcukStskeeps, i see you've been busy on mer again12:00
Stskeepsyeah, a bit12:00
Stskeepsi'm still trying to reach critical mass where people start contributing12:00
lcukthen recovery left me with no energy12:00
Stskeepsbut the momentum is there atm12:00
lcukyou have changed the packaging thing havent you12:01
lcukto the bzr thing?12:01
Stskeepswell, it's just where i'm storing my branches right now12:01
Stskeepsit's a distributed source control system12:01
Stskeepsanyone can take my branches and merge new changes from upstream maemo, or i can merge from their branches12:02
Stskeeps(.. except for some tainted branches)12:02
Stskeepsgit has no "easy" contribution so12:03
lcukok, so lets say i have a game in ubuntu, that will be a .deb and .tar.gz wont it?12:03
Stskeepswell, most people publish their source in some kind of SVN/CVS/etc. then to package this, a packager could branch their svn, add on packaging information, and then publish this branch12:04
Stskeepsthen when a new release comes on, the packager can pull new patches from the original source12:05
Stskeepsif someone want to contribute to this package/source, they can branch the package and publish their changes12:05
Stskeepsand the initial packager can merge in their changes12:05
Stskeeps(accepting patch)12:05
lcukok, so bzr is an alternative to git and svn12:06
Stskeepssvn isn't distributed though, it's centrally stored12:06
Stskeepsgit is like bzr12:06
Stskeepsbzr can branch off git and svn12:06
lcukwhich communities use bsr and know how it works etc12:07
slonopotamuslots of projects on launchpad, i guess12:08
slonopotamususe bzr12:08
Stskeepslaunchpad is a stronghold in ubuntu world (bzr), git seems to have a stronghold in maemo upstream12:08
Stskeepsbut bzr+launchpad makes it easier for community to join in i guess12:09
lcukim just thinking where we should be looking for outside people to get involved12:10
Stskeepswell i do think there's quite a lot of inkept force in the maemo community12:11
lcukif they are already happy with bzr and its simple for them to push their code in12:11
lcukthere is, but theres not been much noise about bzr ever in chan12:11
slonopotamusbzr is good because easily runs on tablet12:11
Stskeepsgit doesn't?12:12
slonopotamuseasily - no12:12
slonopotamussomeone needs to package it12:12
lcukonly cos its not built - i have used it on my tablet12:12
slonopotamusit needs compiling12:12
qwerty12git is in extras is it not?12:12
slonopotamusnot sure12:12
qwerty12Oh, it's in extras-devel12:13
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lcuki didnt build it though, it was david, ummm oh crap his nick has vanished12:13
Stskeepslcuk: let's say someone wants to add a patch to a Mer package, it is a matter of .. bzr branch lp:~someoneelse/m-r/packagename, cd packagename, do your changes, bzr commit -m "what i did", bzr push lp:~yourusername/m-r/packagename-patch12:13
lcukdavid greaves..12:13
lcukthats the one :D12:13
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slonopotamusthen i take my words back ;)12:13
slonopotamusit wasn't there when i was searching for dvcs for tablet12:14
qwerty12Well, they've been there since July ;)12:15
lcuk:O oh ship12:16
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Stskeepsqwerty12: so, what should a cross-hw platform DSME do?12:20
qwerty12Stskeeps, if I had an inkling, I'd happily tell you but I do not :). My [slight] interest with dsme goes as far as CAL. I don't know much about DSME to give you ideas12:21
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lcukim gonna go n have a *fierce* shower12:22
jaskasuperheated steam?12:23
lcukomap3 powershower12:25
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Stskeepsqwerty12: k12:26
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`Maceanybody know of good burning software for osx?12:29
`Macesomething like nero? :)12:29
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slonopotamusman, this is linux-geeks channel ;)12:35
slonopotamuscompile k3b ;)12:36
`Macewow osx burning software fucking sucks12:38
`Macewonder if darwin ports has k3b12:38
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: how's gentoo on tablet doing btw?13:19
slonopotamus1. very old kernel13:20
slonopotamusi hit
slonopotamusso i can't use oabi stage13:20
StskeepsOABI? why not EABI?13:21
slonopotamusi wanted take oabi stage and recomple into eabi13:21
slonopotamusthere are no ready eabi stages13:21
slonopotamustrying to make one via crosscompiling13:22
suihkulokkislonopotamus: the patch for that is trivial13:22
slonopotamusi'm not brave enough yet to compile custom kernel for tablet :)13:23
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Stskeepsit's pretty simple :P reflashing is always possible13:23
qwerty12slonopotamus, you are replacing the os and you're telling me that you can't recompile the kernel?! :P :)13:24
slonopotamusi can, i do that often on desktop :)13:24
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slonopotamusanyway, i have 2 ways and two roadblocks.13:25
qwerty12Hehe, I don't doubt that you can; it just strikes me as odd because you don't even have to flash a kernel if you wish, the N8x0 has the ability to boot a kernel without flashing13:25
slonopotamusoabi stage is very slow, btw13:26
slonopotamusi guess it was built with softfp13:27
slonopotamusand if i say very slow, it really means VERY slow13:28
slonopotamuscross-compiled stuff is fast, btw13:28
suihkulokkislonopotamus: slow doing what?13:28
slonopotamusdoing everything13:28
suihkulokkiwell everything doesn't use FP :)13:29
suihkulokkisince you are talking about stages13:29
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suihkulokkiI presume you see slow compiling13:29
slonopotamusmaybe because it was built without any cpu-specific optimizations, for generic arm13:29
lcukwhat system are you sat inside on the device whilst doing the compilation13:30
lcukie: default maemo or some raw root build system?13:30
suihkulokkislonopotamus: I think you are just low on RAM (and RAM bandwidth)13:31
lcukin that case, compilation using default "ondemand" setting is about 5x slower than in performance13:31
slonopotamuslcuk, will look at it13:31
lcuki notice it - liqbase takes over 10 minutes to build in ondemand and about 3 minutes in performance13:31
AStormbecause up_threshold is too high13:31
lcuki never counted the ondemand one - i just kick myself whenever i notice13:31
AStormfixable with one write to sysfs13:32
suihkulokkiAStorm: is there a bug about that ?13:32
AStormNokia should do that :)13:32
lcukmost users dont compile13:32
lcukits not worth a bug13:32
AStormsuihkulokki, not yet13:32
AStormnah, it is13:32
slonopotamusi have many ways to go. take python from itos and symlink it to /usr/bin/python, for example13:32
AStormit helps performance all around13:32
lcukyeah astorm i know that13:32
lcuki stressed lots during this year13:32
slonopotamusor build python inside my chroot by hand13:33
AStormwith neglible cost in power usage :)13:33
suihkulokkiit would be interesting to see if/how it affects battery life13:33
slonopotamusi.e. without portage13:33
lcukAStorm, uh huh, i live in performance now13:33
AStorm(if powersave_bias is on)13:33
AStormperformance eats battery much faster13:33
slonopotamusor hack'n'patch kernel13:33
AStormnot worth it13:33
slonopotamusso oabi chroot works13:33
AStormslonopotamus, trying to put gentoo too?13:33
slonopotamusyou too?13:34
lcuki dont notice that astorm, but then again - a bad leaky process somewhere would leak faster in performance than in ondemand13:34
AStormslonopotamus, I have that on agenda13:34
lcuksorry, not leaky - i meant busy13:34
AStormno time right now13:34
slonopotamusastorm, nosocomia blog - yours?13:35
AStormesp. transient processes13:35
AStormI don't blog (yet?)13:35
slonopotamushave you tried anything yet?13:36
AStormanytzhing as in kernel replacement13:36
AStormand crossing13:36
AStormI also built stuff on nit itself using codesourcery toolchain13:37
slonopotamusgot fully-functional gentoo chroot?13:37
AStormno, that's the "on agenda" part13:37
AStormnot that it would be any hard13:37
AStormgcc and python built nicely (cross)13:38
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slonopotamusdidn't you hit
slonopotamusthat's the only trouble for me to get fully-functional chroot13:39
AStormI did stable13:40
slonopotamusthat is stable13:40
AStormanyway, disabling the test is simple if you have to13:40
AStormas of recently13:40
AStormI did 2.4.something13:41
AStormanyway, it should be possible to bypass the test with config.cache or what was it13:42
slonopotamusso that should be enough for chroot13:42
AStormCLFS has hacks for these13:42
slonopotamuscrossdev-wrappers too13:42
slonopotamuscame across crossdev-wrappers only this week :(13:43
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slonopotamusnext step will be to flash the most fanoush initfs13:44
slonopotamusthe one that supports linuxrc on partition13:44
AStormbuild your own13:44
AStormyou only need two apps from it13:44
AStormone to update the screen13:45
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slonopotamusdon't want to depend on custom kernel/initfs13:45
AStormwhy should you? initfs is actually superfluous13:46
slonopotamusthat will be enough13:46
AStormyes, bootmenu is a nice hack13:46
slonopotamusit will just call linuxrc on gentoo partition13:47
AStormesp. important is that screen updater and text output13:47
AStormbut then, if you build a custom kernel, you can change the default for auto screen updates13:47
Stskeeps.. and remember to let X switch it back so you do manual updates, or performance is horrid :P13:48
slonopotamusauto screen updates - ?13:48
Stskeepsslonopotamus: framebuffer console doesn't automatically refresh the screen, so13:48
slonopotamuscustom kernel = need to hack'n'patch each time nokia updates it13:48
Stskeepsslonopotamus: nokia seems to be moving towards git so it might be easier13:49
slonopotamusi'm too lazy for that ;)13:49
AStormjust use linux-omap tgree13:49
AStormshould work now13:49
AStormfor wifi, you have to grab new driver13:49
slonopotamusok, need to reflash/recompile each time13:49
AStormah, and you must get Xomap built against new kernel headers13:49
slonopotamusXomap.  have you tried googling for it? it almost doesn't exist ;)13:51
AStormit is in the source repo13:51
StskeepsAStorm: xserver-xorg-video-omapfb exists now13:51
slonopotamusStskeeps, so just vanilla xorg + xserver-xorg-video-omapfb?13:52
Stskeepsthat's what we're using in Mer, atleast13:53
* Stskeeps tries to get SB2 going.13:53
slonopotamusMer? no more deblet? :)13:53
JaffaMorning, all13:53
StskeepsAStorm: , , (last one has a section that explains it briefly)13:54
slonopotamusok. forget Xomap.13:54
lcukmornin jaffa13:54
Stskeepsslonopotamus: yeah, .. desktop/server distributions has issues on tablets, power consumption, mer is successor to deblet13:54
Stskeepsand has a lot more potential13:54
lcukjaffa, i heard the a team music when you posted your stop moaning and make a plan yesterday13:55
slonopotamusStskeeps, good. do you believe in os2009 on n8x0?13:55
* lcuk does13:55
Stskeepsslonopotamus: we'll know more after december13:55
slonopotamusi don't13:55
Stskeepsslonopotamus: in any case, Mer is a way to move Maemo into community hands13:55
Stskeeps(Mer is not supposed to be "just hildon" though)13:56
Jaffalcuk: gotta keep the electorate on side ;-)13:56
Stskeepslcuk: stop moaning and start helping out? :P13:56
lcukjaffa, no qualms at all - i just wonder which a team member you want to be :P13:56
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lcuksince you got the train and ferry across europe instead of being normal and flying i think you should be B.A13:57
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Jaffalcuk: Heh :)13:57
lcukdon't tell gan but he can be murdock ;)13:58
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: and nokia is actually doing quite a nice thing for Fremantle-HE if the sdk is 100% oss13:59
slonopotamusi didn't say anything bad about freemantle ;)13:59
Jaffalcuk: Unstable, but comical and always there in the middle of things? ;-)14:00
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lcukummmm printf in c, how do i format as 0.000?  first time ive tried to do stuff with floats i think14:02
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Jaffalcuk: something like %.3d IIRC14:02
* slonopotamus doesn't believe in binary-based distros14:03
Stskeepsslonopotamus: meh, if you want user to have a image on hw.. :P14:04
lcukits ok14:04
lcukim a stupid twonk14:05
lcuki had a lovely calcaspect() function which did everything internal in float, then returned result as an int14:05
* lcuk facepalms14:05
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: in any case some of the principles are useful in any kind of tablet stuff14:05
lcuk\o/ yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss14:06
* Stskeeps grrs at sb214:07
AStormsb is a broken thing :)14:08
Stskeepssb2 is a little more sane but it doesn't sing by my tune just yet14:08
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StskeepsAStorm: if you're interested in system arch / design, you're more than welcome to join in on #reconstructedPOC on jaiku , or contribute to the proposals.. this stuff might actually go somewhere :P14:09
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* lcuk is pleased with his handwriting14:17
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lcukhiya housetier, hows the c-base holding up in the cold? :D14:21
housetierhello there :)14:22
housetierit's holding up quite well actually. we are refurbishing it this week: fresh paint all over the place, new furniture at the bar, new hardware in the server room14:24
housetierits busy, although only very few people actually do work14:24
lcukheh, stop giving the others beer unless they help out14:26
housetierduring "Bauwoche" (building week) every present member has to work or to leave14:26
lcukall i can say is if I were in Berlin I wouldv come down to help :)14:27
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lcukwhy cant my code code itself14:51
lcuk"ummm computer, hello computer, make me a program"14:51
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beav1slcuk: i thought windows does. but not that good ;)14:54
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lcukheh beav1s, yeah, the point was to hav e working code14:55
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beav1ssomething like "hello computer, hee...pokpokpok...answering-->bluescreen14:55
beav1sagreed ;)14:55
lcukahhh well, i suppose ill just carry on thinking about interfaces and interactions and hopefully something pretty will come of it14:56
mikkov_fiferboy: new version of boost is now there15:08
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* qwerty12_N800 curses at having to set SDL_VIDEO_X11_WMCLASS15:09
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lcukYESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!! i have a usb for my n80015:16
qwerty12_N800hehe, congrats :P15:16
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* lcuk almost dropped it 15:18
lcukthat wouldv been just fecking typical15:18
GAN800Why is Modest's quoting so weird?15:19
lcuki dont know, why is modest's quoting so weird?15:19
GAN800Who said 'let's do it contrary to every other email client'. . . .15:19
lcukworst case scenario, if i charge device whilst flashing will i just have to wait till its charged to try again?15:20
JaffaApparently it's in "the spec"15:20
* Jaffa moaned about it early on and was told "meh" via Bugzilla15:20
lcukall heal the spec15:21
lcukhail even15:21
lcukthough thats quite freudian15:21
GAN800maybe if somebody writes a patch. . .15:21
GAN800Though you can always tell Modest users.15:22
lcukbut whats wrong with it15:22
GAN800It's shit15:22
lcukdunno, never used it15:22
GAN800it seemingly doesn't actually quote.15:22
JaffaNo attribution, signature in wrong place, sig sep trimmed (that's a fun one)15:22
GAN800Just adds an 'original message' header15:23
JaffaUnchangeable font in the composition window => not being able to be sure of 72 char line width15:23
lcukooooh my computer found my nokia15:23
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lcukbah! ill try again once its fully fully charged, damn thing wont connect to nokia updater15:32
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GAN800lcuk, you can't charge and flash at the same time.15:41
lcuki wasnt trying to, it was showing 1hour - i shut it off totally wtihout charger in (i popped battery then afterwards)15:41
lcuki connected to usb, pressed home and turned on.  i got the usb icon, but the updater couldnt find it.15:42
lcukthis was from the same usb port that a couple of minutes before detected n800 in disk mode15:42
lcukill try again after its had a bit longer charge15:43
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johnx ?16:13
Stskeeps.. ?16:13
slonopotamusjust checked if i'm online16:14
Stskeepsit's officially boring day of the week16:14
johnx<- drunk o'clock here16:15
johnxbut I'm in the future :)16:15
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* Stskeeps is coding up a saner builder16:15
* johnx had to get drunk before he could consider the sapwood / gtk+ problem again16:16
slonopotamuspoor binary guy16:16
Stskeepsslonopotamus: we actually compile our own stuff :P16:16
slonopotamuswtf is hildon?16:17
* lcuk is saning up a code builder16:17
lcukits where you stay if you cant afford the hilton16:17
Stskeepsslonopotamus: hildon is the user interface you see on nokia tablets :P16:17
slonopotamustray + menubar?16:17
slonopotamusand desktop?16:17
GAN800Nokia IPs in the wikipedia edit history are ridiculously easy to spot.16:17
johnxhildon-desktop is that yes16:17
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Stskeepsyeah, and some extra stuff, api wise16:17
johnxlibhildon is what the apps use to give them that maemo-y look16:18
qwerty12_N800autobuilder's i386 building requirement is annoying. I'm tempted to shove a few "|| true"'s to force it to carry on even if building for i38616:18
GAN800slonopotamus, try wikipedia. ;)16:18
slonopotamushmm. aren't there skins in gtk?16:18
slonopotamuswhy to link apps against this strange thing?16:19
johnxyes, gtk has themes, but hildon goes beyond that in some ways16:19
Stskeepsslonopotamus: also it helps with power consumption16:19
johnxhmm? hildon is related to power consumtion?16:19
slonopotamusmenubar with power saving features16:20
Stskeepsjohnx: .. the thing about hibernation maybe16:20
Stskeepsor was that libosso16:20
qwerty12_N800yep, libosso16:20
slonopotamuslib with support for opensource ;)16:21
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slonopotamusi haven't heard kde required linking against kwin16:22
slonopotamuslink against qt - and be happy16:22
johnxthat's kind of unrelated16:22
johnxthe maemo window manager is actually matchbox16:23
qwerty12_N800you aren't forced to link against hildon libraries either16:23
slonopotamusok, not kwin but kde menubar16:23
johnxthere's just a lot of things named hildon :)16:23
Stskeepsslonopotamus: ok, libhildon != hildon desktop16:23
GAN800slonopotamus, wikipedia16:23
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slonopotamusGAN800, i'm just kidding. all this hildonizing looks seams like a wrong thing16:24
johnxthat's nice. many of the people who understand what it is disagree, but thanks for your input16:25
GAN800Ubuntu Mobile and Moblin both use Hildon.16:25
slonopotamuslike 'wanna use fluxbox? please, go and hack your app so it is fluxboxed'16:25
johnxthat's different and you know it16:25
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* Stskeeps passes a vodka bottle over the bar desk for johnx16:26
johnxgot plenty here :)16:26
* Stskeeps could really need vodka today. 16:26
Stskeepsstill some hours left till i can justify switching to hard liqour16:27
johnxcome over and I'll get you fixed up with whatever I can find16:27
GAN800Google has new buttons in the search results today. . . .16:27
konttori_slonopotamus: really, the point is that on a mobile device you have so much less space, that in order for the app to be useful, you'd anyway have to modify it to fit to such a small screen16:27
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konttori_but, I agree that normal gtk windows should behave correctly anyway.16:27
johnxGAN800, not seeing them. what are they?16:27
slonopotamusand so what? pass different deffault settings to gtk widgets16:28
lcukhaving the default tools available is better, even if you have to redraw and modify the experience to suit the display and interaction16:28
qwerty12_N800wiki stuff. i've had them for a while.16:28
GAN800johnx, flp the minimize arrow on our toolbar and it looks exactly like that.16:28
GAN800the arrow and the x16:28
GAN800next to wach result16:29
johnxinteresting. I'm not seeing them yet16:30
Stskeepsusing .com or .jp?16:30
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slonopotamus'if you don't hildonize your app, menubar will apear wrong'. damn, it's window manager job to place window correctly and to draw window decorations16:31
johnxuhm no?16:31
johnxthe menubar is part of the app16:32
Stskeepsslonopotamus: a menu isn't a window decoration though16:32
lcuktechnically, the app should define the palette of options along with priorities, an ideal interface would then display that palette as required16:32
slonopotamusi'm not very good with gtk but i didn't find any reasons why hildon must be so intrusive16:34
qwerty12_N800Look at the screen space we have available. An hildonized menu takes up less space than a standard gtkmenubar on the tablets.16:35
johnxhildon also supplies a more touchscreen-oriented open/save dialog and some other stuff16:36
slonopotamusplease select /etc/passwd in your friendly file chooser16:37
johnxyeah, you can't16:37
johnxfor a consumer device, that's a "good thing" (tm)16:37
slonopotamusfor a geek device, this is a useless file chooser16:37
Stskeepsmake a patch then16:37
GAN800Nokia's goal isn't a 'geek device'16:38
Stskeeps"Full file system"16:38
slonopotamusis it opensource?16:38
Stskeepsyes it is16:38
Jaffaslonopotamus: there's no good technical reason why Hildon is so intrusive. Nokia didn't want to maintain a fork, so the behaviour of existing widgets is largely unchanged, and you have to use different widgets to get the behaviour that a device owner expects.16:38
johnxit's funny but I rarely feel like editing /etc/passwd from a GUI app and guess what, I'm definitely a geek16:38
johnxI know how to work on cars but I also don't feel like having the fuse box exposed all the time16:39
GAN800johnx, I really don't understand it either.16:39
slonopotamusJaffa, that's what i thought. 'let's make quick hack, so we don't have problems. community will have, but who cares'16:40
GAN800if I want to dig in deep I open xterm or ssh in.16:40
GAN800The 'quick hack' seems to be acceptable for Ubuntu16:40
slonopotamusUbuntu is a quick hack :)16:41
slonopotamusthey patch a lot, but don't send upstream16:41
Jaffaslonopotamus: It's not a "quick hack" solution - it's a "we don't want to lose any benefit of staying close to upstream, and want to ensure our development benefits upstream too". I can understand it. I don't /agree/ with it, but it makes some sense.16:41
slonopotamusJaffa, makes, yes16:42
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slonopotamusJaffa, bug from app developer POV it's ugly16:43
konttori_does anyone know how to install ogg support to diablo?16:43
konttori_the ogg-support package is missing from repos16:43
kulvekonttori_: it's on my repo, not in the extras(-devel)16:44
Jaffaslonopotamus: agreed entirely. Qt & SWT toolkits for Maemo go the other way, and at the Summit Nokia were talking about making the default controls more finger friendly.16:44
kulvekonttori_: the single click install is available in the
konttori_ok. thanks. I just cannot then add the dependency to ukmp.16:45
slonopotamusJaffa, good. it definitely should be easier to tweak 1 lib then each app based on that lib16:45
lcukkulve, any reason why not pushed to extras?16:45
konttori_would this work: gstreamer0.10-plugins-ivorbis16:45
konttori_That is in extras devel16:46
Jaffaslonopotamus: A lot of this could be done upstream as well, e.g. some kind of GtkMenuProvider interface, which Hildon could provide. Would also help with ROX & OS X-inspired Gtk+ based desktops.16:46
slonopotamusJaffa, good ;) is browserd looks crazy only to me? ;)16:48
johnxyeah, that's just crazy16:48
johnxagreed there16:48
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slonopotamusjohnx, maybe it has some smart reason?16:49
johnxsomething about fast startup by having the browser cached in memory16:50
slonopotamusi close my browser, i have few free ram. but no, this damn thing sits there and eats my precious ram16:50
konttori_it's also about browser stability and ability to serve web runtime home applets16:50
GAN800and memory savings when other applications use it16:50
slonopotamusGAN800, uh?16:50
slonopotamusGAN800, gimme an exa,ple16:51
Jaffaslonopotamus: why do you care about your RAM when an app doesn't need it?16:51
slonopotamusJaffa, my other app needs it16:51
GAN800konttori already did16:51
johnxI think one common browser daemon serves anything that needs to use it16:51
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slonopotamusJaffa, so i have to go and kill browserd16:51
GAN800It's the same setup Chrome and IE8 use16:51
kulvekonttori_: some maemo people actually pushed at least most of my packages to extras-devel..16:51
GAN800It's about 7MB in reality16:52
konttori_ah. but not ogg-support16:52
slonopotamus7-12 i'd say16:52
lcukok, a browser - a simple thing with not much happening under the hood to display a blank page: WTF takes it so long to get started16:52
slonopotamusthat's 6-10%16:52
JaffaGAN800: Not really - it's more the complete opposite of what IE8 & Chrome do :)16:52
konttori_perhaps the same maemo guys could push also the ogg-support there16:52
kulvelcuk: yes. I've taken the Nokia's source packages and changed the binary packages they produce. I don't want to push source package called X to extras-devel if Nokia already provide source package called X16:52
konttori_lcuk: I agree. I cannot understand why browser is so slow to start16:53
slonopotamusGAN800, you wanna say chrome runs demon even if i  cllose browser?16:53
lcukkulve, reasonable response, since its at source level, have you tried submitting a patch?16:53
kulvelcuk: and because rumours say the maemo 5 will include ogg, I haven't bothered to rename the source packages16:53
lcuki cant understand why ANY program is slow to start16:53
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konttori_if app needs to read a lot of data files, that's a reason for slow start16:54
GAN800Not really, I want to make myself a turkey sammich and stop arguing nonsense.16:54
lcukagreed, but most do incremental loading as required16:54
Stskeepsmm turkey16:54
konttori_however, for browser, that is clearly not the case16:54
woglindelcuk try a profile build and find out16:54
woglindewhere the most time is spended16:54
lcuknot my bag16:54
woglindehm is there oprofile for the tablets?16:55
* Stskeeps could really need a good sandwich instead of pumpkin soup16:55
lcukill just reimplement something if it doesnt feel right for me16:55
lcukget it feeling right, then flesh it out16:55
qwerty12_N800woglinde, yes, kernel, oprofile & oprofileui in sdk repo16:55
woglindeqwerty hehe okay and did some one profile why it is so slow?16:56
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qwerty12_N800effing google's link tracking. takes the piss when you copy a link16:58
johnx...pumpkin soup actually sounds good, but pumpkin pie sounds better...16:59
* GAN800 has got some key lime16:59
derfHah, only in Florida.16:59
GAN800Best pie ever17:00
* johnx misses key lime, but misses cheese cake even more17:00
derfI do love me some key lime pie, but not for Thanksgiving.17:00
* johnx lives in the future, did Thanksgiving last weekend17:00
GAN800I had a slice of pumpkin and a slice of key lime for dessert on Thanksgiving. ;)17:01
derfjohnx: You don't live that far in the future.17:01
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GAN800Says the jealous man from the past. :p17:02
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Stskeepswould any of you pay for an major update to the base system of your n8x0s?17:09
Stskeeps.. just curious17:09
glass_probably not17:09
glass_it would have to be pretty damn cool update17:10
Stskeepslike, since we won't be buying new hw, how would nokia finance updates to old devices?17:10
glass_they probably wouldn't17:10
glass_bugfixes sure..17:10
Stskeepsupdates being the closed source parts/differentations that target our devices17:10
johnxtrue open source followers are rather stingy :)17:10
* qwerty12_N800 places £500 down on the notion that they wouldn't17:11
lcuknot really johnx, every single one of us here has stumped up x cash for our devices17:11
JaffaNo one's ever had any success selling to end-users of Maemo devices, despite at least 3 people trying17:11
glass_lcuk: not really17:11
Stskeepsjohnx: if i really had a go argumenting at a gnubie meetup, i'd end up being lynched..17:11
johnxs/:)/when it comes to software :P/17:11
infobotjohnx meant: true open source followers are rather stingy when it comes to software :P17:11
StskeepsJaffa: maybe cos the infrastructure isn't there for it17:11
lcukyes glass, i invested in open source when i purchased my device - its not like we are sitting around using existing hardware17:11
* Stskeeps wouldn't mind an "app store", using paypal/micropayments, but without stingy rules17:12
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glass_lcuk: i would suspect that there are many guys on this channel who didn't pay themselfs for their device17:12
* Stskeeps did.17:12
lcukthen how did they get their first one17:12
glass_the guys who do hired dev certainly haven't17:12
johnxStskeeps, hmm? lynched why?17:12
Stskeeps(as in, i paid for my device.)17:12
glass_lcuk: from work, from wherever project17:12
lcuki agree, my family has grown substantially since i came here - but i had to shell out for my first17:12
lcukglass_, then the company has paid17:13
lcukits not for free17:13
Stskeepsjohnx: me vs true open source fanatics wouldn't go down well :P17:13
JaffaStskeeps: plenty of people made money through software before "App Store"s came along. If *most* apps are pay-for (even micro pay-for), you can expect some money. When it's only a small minority, users will turn their noses up17:13
glass_lcuk: yes, but you said stumped up cash...17:13
lcukim sure the companies accountant paid with real cash17:13
glass_well, not necessarely either17:14
StskeepsJaffa: heh, opposite effect of critical mass.. before people refused to use open source cos not many people used it, and used propertiary solutions instead, .. and now it's reverse17:14
glass_lcuk: nokia partners get devices without cash17:14
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GAN800I'd just buy the new hardware17:15
glass_but anyways, firmware updates that cost are not nokias way so far17:15
GAN800Nokia could never lock down a for-pay upgrade well enough17:15
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Stskeepsi think there might be some thought in bounties for getting something done17:15
Stskeeps"backport modest fixes from fremantle"17:16
lcukthats a new app though isnt it17:16
johnxit's funny how each platform projects a certain sentiment. linux = "open your code", windows = "nickle and dime for enverything", mac = "pay for good software"17:16
GAN800I still think a community backport will be much more staightforward this time around17:16
lcukmmm i dont17:17
GAN800and I bet you'll even be able to get some help from the Nokia HE people.17:17
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, some want the mail app from chinook back :P17:17
johnxwell everything won't be backported of course17:17
GAN800Either way, there's still a few SSUs to go.17:17
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i'm there17:17
johnxbut somehow I don't see them linking every single app against clutter :)17:17
Stskeepsyeah, well, we will know soon what the nature of fremantle will be17:18
johnxI am actually more curious/worried/excited than I have been in a long time about a new software release17:18
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Stskeepshehe, join the club17:19
lcukim glad weve got options, one thing we must be able to do: run mer in n90017:19
Stskeepsi'm wondering how many of my hopes will come up17:19
Stskeepslcuk: cos you're on the list for lead users? ;>17:19
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, hehe, i don't think it would be hard to do so even if the chinook one is closed source (parts are afaik) but i don't use a mail client  on the n800 so it's not worth me investing time in it imo17:19
johnxlcuk, now that would be interesting: competing against Nokia's current OS with a past version of their old OS :)17:19
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: all source is in svn17:19
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: afaik17:19
JaffaAnyone want to buy a 9 year old Ford Focus? ;-)17:20
RST38hHey, the steering wheel is WRONG!17:20
lcukjohnx, well it wouldnt be competing - its open source, we have most of the os built now and people are kinda happy with it, if momentum builds we can give people that choice between a more standard OS and the (as I think it will be) user friendly bouncy apps (ala clutterified)17:20
johnxRST38h, look right to me *shrugs*17:21
JaffaRST38h: :)17:21
lcukthe extra power of the n900 WILL give it a real snappy feel and what people have been trying to do all year (running desktop apps) will come through quite easily17:21
RST38hjohnx: yours is supposed to have a little extra mirror though =)17:21
johnxonly SUVs AFAIK17:22
johnxthough a focus is kind of big for this country :)17:22
lcukStskeeps, :D am i advanced?17:22
lcukummm lead17:22
Stskeepslcuk: the marketing guy said you were :P17:23
RST38hlcuk: I wouldn't be so expectant about that "real snappy feel"17:24
johnxwell they'll have plenty of power to play with for sure17:25
johnxand ya'know a decent *working* bus to connect their LCD to17:25
* Stskeeps has worries over gfx taking it out on battery power, but.. :P17:25
lcuki would, not only the extra actual horsepower, but the fact it wont have a backwards rgb framebuffer17:25
* RST38h expects the end result to be pretty usable but probably not as snappy and fluid as everybody thinks17:26
lcukStskeeps, i saw the nice fast 3d ui (which still seems somewhat unresponsive) and instantly thought: unintuitive but pretty and a mega battery killer17:26
RST38hWith main source of lag still being the Web (CSS rendering, JS, and Flash)17:27
GAN800RST38h, have you played with OMAP3 yet?17:27
RST38hGAN: Nope, didn't have a chance yet17:28
GAN800Somebody ship him a Beagle17:28
RST38hSeen the videos though (the ones discussed at itt)17:28
RST38hGAN: For the last 2 weeks, I am trying to wrestle an STMP37xx board from the local customs17:28
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Stskeepsyou were in russia or how was it, RST38h?17:29
lcukGAN800, a beagle really isnt good, its a circuit board with no onboard os, you have to become a ninja to install and test on it17:29
RST38hGAN: So, my guess is, it will never make it here17:29
RST38hSts: Still am, right now17:29
lcukdid you ever get yours working ?17:29
StskeepsRST38h: ah - then no chance of beagleboard "us export restrictions"17:29
Stskeeps(saw someone have that problem)17:29
lcukin here17:30
Stskeeps.. yeah, possibly17:30
GAN800lcuk, I'm quite ceryain RST38h has experience with circuit boards. :)17:30
RST38hSts: Oh, I will just claim my appartment to be a US territory then :)17:30
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GAN800lcuk, just because the touchscreen is all of YOUR world doesn't mean it's all if everybody else's too. ;)17:30
johnxthere are machines that come with OSes? I thought it was just a demo app...17:31
GAN800Anyway, Angstrom's significantly easier to get going than it was a few months ago.17:31
RST38hjohnx: A lot of these kits come with Linux or WinCE17:31
johnxRST38h, right but I thought it was some kind of test to make sure it works17:32
lcukno, but you gotta admit the lack of anything is a bit bothersome, its like ordering fish and chips and getting a potato and a fishing rod17:32
johnxlike picture frames the come with picture of someone else's baby17:32
RST38hjohnx: Depends. The NXC board has fully functional Linux with X11, XFCE, and Xine17:32
* johnx 's english fails tonight17:32
GAN800lcuk, depends on the person. :)17:33
RST38hWinCE, by definition, should boot to the win95-like desktop too17:33
lcukof course gan, but im in the resteraunt to eat, i pay people in the kitchen to make my food17:34
lcukspeaking of that, i gotta pick up some bacon17:34
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RST38hlcuk: Sure you are not paying them not to poison you? =)17:34
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GAN800lcuk, then clearly a Beagle is not the right device for you. ;)17:34
johnxever go to someplace with a salad bar? :)17:34
GAN800I hear they have bacon bits there.17:35
RST38h[innocently smiling] 2 strips of bacon a day raise your colon cancer chances by 65%17:37
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GAN800Ah, percentages17:38
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slonopotamusi was me. with 'us export' and missile strike17:47
johnxyou do realize that the FBI hangs out on IRC and is very worried by the things you say, right? :)17:49
slonopotamusno fbi here17:50
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slonopotamusnow definitely no.17:53
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slonopotamushm ;)17:54
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lcukmy bacon intake is not as great as you lot would appear to have me pegged as17:54
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lcuki eat 2 or maybe 3 lbs of bacon a day17:55
lcukummm rashers ;)17:55
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slonopotamusqemu doesn't compile with gcc 4. stupid.17:57
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slonopotamusStskeeps, did i understand you correct, you abandoned deblet?18:00
Stskeepsslonopotamus: Mer certainly has more potential18:02
slonopotamusStskeeps, i see18:03
Stskeepsand i kept on hitting the power consumption problem with "normal" linux18:03
slonopotamusmer, moblin, ubuntu mobile, maemo...18:03
Stskeepswhile it may be nice to have gentoo, debian, ubuntu, .. fedora, on tablets, they need special flavoring to be power saving18:03
Stskeepsand as i see it, maemo does it the right way18:03
Stskeepsnot even sure how mobil does it18:04
johnxprobably be sleeping the device instead of real standby18:04
GAN800Stupid Atom18:04
slonopotamuswhat do you mean by 'sleeping'?18:05
johnxI mean ACPI S318:05
johnx"suspend to RAM"18:05
slonopotamuscrazy thing, btw ;)18:06
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: which is why i think it may be the time to concentrate efforts, and do it in a way that would satisfy most users/power users of the tablets18:07
RST38hMoblin probably tries HALTing CPU as much as possible18:08
RST38hi.e. same as Maemo, I think18:08
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Stskeepsmoblin is kinda like maemo i guess18:09
johnxyeah, but intel CPU/chipsets don't get to quite as low of a power state, do they?18:09
slonopotamuswhat about tickless kernel?18:09
slonopotamusis it used?18:09
Stskeepswell, hildonish18:09
johnxtickless doesn't do that much, does it?18:09
slonopotamusintel chipsets are very power-hungry18:10
GAN800Maemo's been tickless for a whilr.18:10
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t_s_ohmm, how compatible with existing maemo will mer be?18:10
slonopotamusGAN800, but stopped?18:11
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Stskeepst_s_o: very close, i hope18:11
t_s_oso one can expect most apps that work in maemo to work in mer?18:11
Stskeepswe use same GTK, hildon, so18:12
Stskeepssome things may be adjusted for abstracting the HW away18:12
t_s_onot that hard given that most of the stuff im using right now is either "ripped" from debian or python based ;)18:12
derfI would love it if maemo supported suspend-to-RAM out of the box.18:12
GAN800The watchdog is the killer18:12
RST38hjohnx: Correct. So far, they don't power down as deeply as ARM chips18:13
GAN800ideally, though, the powersaving should be working well enough that it isn't needed.18:13
StskeepsGAN800: i had an interesting reaction from my tablet with s2ram, - wd may not be active when in deep sleep18:13
Stskeepsas far as i could see what the tablet started up and such18:13
Stskeepsand OHM will hopefully aid all of this :P18:13
slonopotamuswhy do you want s2ram?18:14
Stskeepsslonopotamus: sometimes i just want my device to sleep very deepily without power usage, but not have to reboot18:14
GAN800OMAP3 is pretty much off at idle, so Intel's got a ways to go to match that. ;)18:14
derfWith s2ram I'd have to charge it maybe once a week.18:15
slonopotamusStskeeps, n800 may live for a week if not touched. isn't it enough?18:15
Stskeepsslonopotamus: yeah, but a n800 can live for 30 days on s2ram :P18:15
Stskeeps(at least)18:16
GAN800Stskeeps, just idle too18:16
GAN800Ask fanoush18:16
Meiz_n810We will get canola to mer! will we? jaunty uses armel, so it can be installed with no tricks?18:16
slonopotamuswhy not s2disk if you're not going to touch it for a monnth?18:16
StskeepsMeiz_n810: when canola is OSS i guess18:16
johnxMeiz_n810, it's going open source soon18:16
Stskeepsslonopotamus: i've yet to see a s2disk working on tablet :P18:16
derfslonopotamus: Because you want to be able to take it out and have it "just work" in seconds.18:17
slonopotamusStskeeps, what makes it impossible?18:17
derfAnd in my experience n8x0 is lucky to make two days without charging.18:17
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: if its depends are open source...?18:17
slonopotamusderf, 128mb can be read very fast from disk18:17
RST38h2-3 days here18:17
derfslonopotamus: Too bad there's no disk, but only flash.18:17
Meiz_n810ok canola is not that awesome...18:17
t_s_oanyways, would have been fun to see a diablo like, but without the odd nokia closed source daemon or app...18:18
derf6 MB/s means at least 21s.18:18
johnxMeiz_n810, yes, we will see canola on lots of things18:18
derfAnd that's if it can actually run the card at peak bandwidth.18:18
johnxpossibly even some things that aren't strictly maemo :)18:18
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t_s_oheh, now i can retire homefreespace18:19
t_s_oerr, homediskfree :P18:19
slonopotamusderf, what's bad with flash?18:20
derfAs I said, most cards are limited to 6 MB/s.18:20
johnxStskeeps, run into any problems with libtool while building in jaunty?18:21
t_s_ofreakin forum invasion bots...18:21
slonopotamusi get 50mbps here on dd if=/big/file/on/card of=/dev/zero18:21
Stskeepsjohnx: not directly no18:21
Stskeepsjohnx: how come you ask?18:22
JaffaCanola's been going open source "soon" for nearly 3 months now. Almost time to call vapourware :-(18:22
johnxhaving issues building gtk18:22
derfWhich is 6.25 MB/s?18:22
GAN800Jaffa, hardly18:22
johnxJaffa, I predict progress soon :) I'll bet you a beer it's out as OSS before the new year, which suits me just fine18:22
lcukhom0.0001 libraries of congress / fortnight18:23
slonopotamuscorrection: 50MB/s18:23
GAN800You do know why it's delayed, right?18:23
Stskeepsjohnx: bzr export gtk+ lp:~carsten-munk/m-r/gtk+18:23
johnxslonopotamus, there are no SD cards that fast. you sure it's not cached?18:23
johnxdid you modify it much?18:23
Stskeepsfair bit, look at changelog on second url18:23
GAN800johnx, you'll lose that bet.18:23
slonopotamusi used modified sdhc kernel18:24
JaffaGAN800: nope, why?18:24
johnxGAN800, shipping will kill him :)18:24
slonopotamuswill need to recheck. tested on 1gb file, too big to be cached.18:24
johnx50MB/s is kind of incredible even with a fast SDHC card on a desktop machine18:24
GAN800Everybody read that before you talk Canola. ;)18:25
GAN800Jaffa, your fellow council member is in charge of getting the source out there, so I recommend talking to him. :P18:26
Stskeepsjohnx: btw (and the next comment, - ssh server is is usually)18:26
konttori_SD card speeds:
JaffaGAN800 : I'll try to remember. that doesn't /really/ explain why there's no source yet, just why there's no latest beta.18:26
konttori_Only the slowest available cards have 4.8 MB/s18:26
slonopotamus1 sec18:27
konttori_most reach the 200x -> 30 MB/s speeds18:27
GAN800Jaffa, the source is dependent on getting b10 out the door.18:27
GAN800I don't think it'll be too long after the new year anyway.18:27
konttori_which brings me to question that is there an easy kernel fix for diablo to get faster mmc perf?18:28
qwerty12yes, 48mhz mode18:28
qwerty12unsupported by ti though#18:28
derfkonttori_: Those are also all maximums.18:28
lcukand not supported by all cards18:28
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konttori_sure, but most cards are over 133x these days18:29
konttori_does the rotate support come with also the 48 MHz mode?18:29
konttori_cool if it does.18:29
konttori_"SDHC cards have fixed sector size of 512 bytes."18:30
konttori_I didn't know that18:30
slonopotamusyou're still waiting? good, will bench now18:32
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slonopotamus512k blocks18:35
Stskeepsslonopotamus: be aware of cache hits btw, dd isn't a safe benchmark in that aspect18:35
johnxbut on a 1GB file?18:35
johnxshould average out pretty quick18:36
slonopotamusfirst, writing.18:37
slonopotamustime dd if=/dev/zero of=/floppy/foo count=204800018:37
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slonopotamushmm. seeing 100% cpu load18:38
derfThat's fairly typical for writing.18:38
RST38hbecause it is working18:38
derfBecause good is dumb.18:39
slonopotamusi thought it will i/o wait18:39
RST38hfilling the buffer, sending write command, waiting for the flash to become ready again18:39
johnxwhat's mounted on /floppy?18:39
johnxis this just internal flash?18:39
johnxif so then it's spending lots of time on jffs2 compression18:40
Stskeeps.. are we speaking of internal SD or internal flash?18:40
slonopotamusi mount /dev/mmcblk0p2 there18:40
Stskeepsah, phew18:40
slonopotamussd, of cource18:40
slonopotamusstill running...18:40
Stskeepsjohnx: next Mer target.. - the iphone18:40
Stskeeps(linux has just been booted)18:40
johnxI'm not touchin' that with a 10ft pole18:41
Stskeepsme neither18:41
Stskeepsheh. "the Dev Team is hoping to run Google's equally Linux-based but more complete Android mobile operating system on the iPhone and is searching for programmers to help with the project."18:41
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Meiz_n810just looked at "windows mobile emulator" thread in itT18:42
Meiz_n810so funny!18:42
johnxit's hard enough making linux work on something that started with it in the first place18:42
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t_s_ojohnx: do not stop people from trying, again and again...18:43
woglindeStskeeps yes I read that too18:43
StskeepsMeiz_n810: i wouldn't mind a simple PIM and sync like in pocket pc 2002 really18:43
johnxt_s_o, oh I won't. I'll watch from the sidelines, just like I do when people go base jumping or have bare knuckle boxing matches18:44
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: i don't think WinMo is unusable, but i laughed for answers to that questition.18:45
slonopotamusanyone can calculate? ;)18:45
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: like "give me a hammer"18:46
johnxlike 4.1MB/s ?18:46
t_s_ojohnx: i didnt say i would try either. especially not on something like the iphone ;)18:47
johnxt_s_o, but I won't try and stop them either :)18:47
slonopotamusnow, reading18:47
slonopotamusi don't have sdhc kernel now18:48
derfFor read speeds I get about 8 MB/s (for /media/mmc2/Maps/GStreet.db, 1.2 GB).18:48
slonopotamusstock diablo ine18:49
derfThat was stock Chinook.18:49
RST38hSts: why not just run MacOS on the tablets? =)18:49
johnx4.7 MB/s ?18:51
johnx<- might not be safe to trust him with math right now18:51
derfSo, in other words, nowhere near 50 MB/s.18:51
slonopotamusi was wrong18:52
slonopotamusnear 50 mbps18:52
slonopotamusnot MB18:52
derfBetter to find out among friends.18:52
johnxreally easy to lose a 0 here and there18:52
slonopotamuswell, but s2disk doesn't need to read full ram in one moment18:53
derfNo, but the system is basically unresponsive until it does.18:53
RST38hyou mean, just back up the whole memory to the swap file?18:53
RST38hand then read it as necessary?18:54
derfThat's what s2disk is.18:54
derfAt least on Linux.18:54
RST38hwhat does it do with pages that can't be swapped out?18:54
johnxif RAM won't fit in swap it dies18:55
johnxmaybe it will dump its cache first?18:55
derfPresumably those are owned by some driver, and the driver knows how to suspend itself.18:55
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slonopotamusi use s2disk on my laptop. it really works18:55
derfYeah, I do, too. But I don't pull my laptop out of my pocket to check a map.18:56
slonopotamuswe were talking about 1 month of not touching your tablet18:56
slonopotamusi'm not sure s2ram makes sence18:57
derfI was talking more along the lines of under 6 hours of use a week.18:57
derfBut for me the battery is dead within 2 days.18:57
dragorns2disk basically operates like swap, so correct, it will dump the cache (or just not write it, since the pages are flagged to not be swapped out.  swapping cache is pointless.)18:57
slonopotamusyou still need to power ram. you still need to power input devices so you'll know when too wake up18:57
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slonopotamusyou still need to power cpu18:58
derfNot hardly.18:58
slonopotamusso... what's the point?18:58
dragornderf: turn off scanning for networks and/or put it in offline mode18:58
dragornafaik the tablets don't even s2ram18:58
derfYes, they do.18:58
derfBut only for 64 seconds at a time.18:59
dragornunless it's been added very recently18:59
slonopotamusmain power drainers are high cpu load, screen and wireless18:59
derfI've seen a hacked-up script that does it.18:59
dragornthere is s2r support in there, mostly, if you hack the xml files for the ui to add it to the power list18:59
derfdragorn: Right... I'm saying I want that out of the box.18:59
dragornderf: that's mike bakers script, he wakes up on a timer because the watchdog trips otherwise19:00
dragornif i recall19:00
slonopotamusderf, my previous message ^19:00
Meiz_n810any idea why i get forbidden on
derfdragorn: I know.19:00
dragornand theres no way to suspend the watchdog19:00
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derfBut he did get improved battery life out of it.19:00
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slonopotamusbtw, under 100% cpu @400mhz load my n800 survives for only 2 hourns19:01
slonopotamusis it ok?19:01
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johnxsounds about right19:01
Stskeepsdragorn: the thing is, the timer doesn't always wake up for watchdog, according to log19:01
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johnxhow old is the battery19:01
dragornStskeeps: yup19:01
dragornStskeeps: which is probably why he lost interest a few years ago, or at least I haven't heard him talking about his 800 lately19:02
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slonopotamusjohnx, bought in february19:02
* dragorn will be more interested in the 810 again once the wifi driver replacement is done.19:02
johnxstill probably about right. It was probably sitting on the shelf before that19:03
Stskeepsdragorn: oh, it didn't kill the tablet19:03
Stskeepsdragorn: it actually well behaved19:03
dragornStskeeps: didn't say it did19:03
slonopotamusand my laptop survives only 40 minutes under full load :(19:04
dragornbut as someone who has also been trying to do stuff with the tablets, once you bang your head against some stupid binary driver bug for a few weeks, you start not caring much19:04
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slonopotamusstupid binary driver ;)19:04
Stskeepsdragorn: .. which even more justifies why community needs to be more strong in the system base, and not just UI bugs :P19:05
dragornStskeeps: which is impossible when nokia can't/won't release the specs19:06
Stskeepsdragorn: nokia's opening up how they can.. that people start seeing it's similar to p54 probably helps19:07
slonopotamusext3 on sd ddeletes files much faster than ext3 on hd19:07
dragornStskeeps: except it has a proprietary calibration system19:07
dragornStskeeps: so "being like" a p54 doesn't help much at all19:07
dragornStskeeps: yes, nokia is working on some kernel drivers (which I think still plan to have a binary userspace to calibrate), which is an improvement19:08
Stskeepsdragorn: if you observe stlc45xx-devel, a guy has actually gotten it19:08
Stskeepsthe calibration and stuff. if you have some insight, ask him :P19:08
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Stskeepsdragorn: .. didn't see you in here before, - what are your interests on the tablet?19:09
dragornStskeeps: yes, someone from nokia is working on the drivers with the goal to include them in the kernel.  Of course like all companies seem to like to do, they want to develop them out-of-tree and then bulk merge, and they're ignoring all the owrk done by the community already19:09
dragornand their USB is still broken19:10
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Stskeepsin terms of?19:12
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dragornHID reads tend to lock the system until the watchdog triggers19:13
dragornwhich makes it useless to support usb devices on19:13
soapa ha!19:13
dragornseems to be a long-standing (years) bug in the cx usb host mode drivers19:14
dragornworks about 70% of the time19:14
soapClaws mail sets the email alert if IT is the first client to receive an IMAP message.  If my desktop client with IMAP "push" is on CLAWS sees it as an unread message, but not a "new" one and doesn't set the alert.19:14
dragornsomething in the dma mapping for bulk io reads goes wonky19:14
soapI wish it would set the light on every new-to-it message.19:15
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* slonopotamus broke his chair :(19:19
* johnx leans his chair backwards on two legs, asks for trouble19:20
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Stskeepsjohnx: any comments on DSME draft on blueprint, btw?19:24
johnxwould we really have DSME and OHM?19:25
StskeepsDSME is trivial to reimplement anyway19:28
Stskeepsand that's my impression from talking to quim, so19:28
Stskeepsthat DSME and OHM will come out19:29
johnxhmm? he thinks DSME and OHM will be side by side?19:29
Stskeepswell, DSME has been promised to be open sourced, and OHM will come along too19:30
johnxI'd still like to see the Fremantle architecture before worrying about it19:31
johnxbut as always, it's your time to spend19:31
johnxI'm finally getting into the bzr flow. I'll try and get hildon-desktop put together in a sane way19:31
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Stskeepstrue, december will bring gifts19:35
Stskeepsso you think we should focus on the rootfs part for now?19:37
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slonopotamusgiftfs ;)19:38
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johnxwell, that's actually an interesting thought: what can we work on that won't be completely changed once the alpha SDK is out?19:39
Stskeepsinfrastructure, proof of concepts19:40
Stskeepsi guess19:40
Stskeeps.. concepts19:40
Stskeepsqwerty12: that game looks like a pure time waster19:40
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johnxfrom the lack of updates on the public hildon-1 I'd have to assume it's undergoing some big changes internally19:40
qwerty12Stskeeps, hehe19:41
Stskeepsjohnx: think we'll just get hildon going, if anything, we can strive towards a diablo UI19:41
johnxbasic functionality and some day-to-day must haves?19:42
johnxwhile attempting not to sink too much time into things likely to change?19:42
Stskeepsyeah i guess19:42
johnxheh, don't look at me :P19:42
johnxyou have more time into this than me19:42
Stskeepshehe, if i don't discuss it i go off some tangent ;)19:42
lcukoooh, shiny19:43
johnxjust as long as you take what I say as "enlightened self-interest"19:43
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johnxanyways, I'm off to bed for now. I've got a noopt build of gtk+ to leave overnight.19:49
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* lcuk boogies to codem onkey20:26
* Stskeeps ponders what to do tonight20:30
lcukget raving drunk, find anything which sounds cool, push it into -devel, then forward it into extras "it compiles, ship it"20:31
lcukive almost finished making an entirely stroke based font :)20:32
lcukits been a good experience so far, learning how to handle variations and editing a group of related items20:33
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GAN800Stskeeps, learn GTK and code up a bootmenu control panel? ;)20:34
linuxberhello im wring a bash script for my n810 and the clear and select binnarys arent present any tips on getting around this?20:34
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lcuklinuxber, i dont know much about scripting, but you could try to find alternatives20:37
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StskeepsGAN800: naah. :P20:40
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linuxberim just trying to use
GAN800Stskeeps, chicken. :P20:42
johnxlinuxber, did you already install bash on the tablet?20:43
johnx<- goes back to bed20:43
linuxberJohnx, it errored when i tryed to install20:44
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Stskeepsclear isnt avail? :P20:48
* Stskeeps uses that all the time, i think20:48
linuxberno =[20:48
linuxberi know with the updated osso-xterm theres an option to clear and reset20:49
lcuki couldnt clear in the one script i made, so i replaced it with echo;echo;echo;echo;20:50
* lcuk never thought it about it from that day to this20:50
inzecho -e '\e[2J\e[H'20:52
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inzHmm, of course busybox echo doesn't really support -e20:59
inzSo I guess you'll need to use ctrl+v-esc instead20:59
inzNor does it support ctlr+v21:00
inzDamn ;)21:00
inzLuckily vi does21:00
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linuxberwoot and it works thanks qwert1221:09
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qwerty12_N800np :)21:09
linuxbernow  about the selcet21:10
linuxbernow  about the selcet option in my script21:10
linuxberwill be done another day21:10
linuxberthanks again qwerty12 youv done alots of good work on the internettablettalk forums21:11
qwerty12_N800stop, you're making me blush :P21:13
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Stskeeps"Lower startup progress bar animation duration to 11s"21:21
Stskeepshmm :P21:21
lcukStskeeps, they could achieve that quite easily by moving stuff outside the display period ;)21:22
Stskeepsyeah, but it usually adds up with how fast the system boots21:23
lcukshhhh but the animation will be under 11seconds21:23
StskeepsRX-34 was n800, RX-44 was n810, RX-48 was n810w right?21:24
Stskeepsso i guess RX-51 is n900 :P21:24
lcukbut thats only 3 revisions of hardware up21:25
lcukthat is of course if the rx number implies hardware test model21:25
slonopotamuswhat the heck is rx?21:25
lcukhardware model identifier21:26
Stskeepsone thing though, nokia is a master of keeping their cards close :P21:29
qwerty12_N800well, until the device in question is released...21:30
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lcukeven then :P :D21:31
qwerty12_N800lcuk, come on, you've seen my collection of pdf's :p21:32
lcukyes, what has been seen cannot be unseen and all that21:32
* slonopotamus hates bluetooth download popup21:33
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slonopotamusthere are lots of people here. they all sit and say nothing. that scares me. maybe they're from fbi?21:34
lcukthey are all actively integrating our conversations into the next device21:36
* lcuk should stop shouting21:36
slonopotamusand blackjack, please21:37
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lcukforget the blackjack21:37
lcukyou forgot to ask for hookers21:38
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lcuki can actually see some random nokian sat in his lab with an n900 and a rasher of bacon trying to work out how to incorporate it21:38
slonopotamusand blackjack  with hookers, please21:38
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lcukok serious question, i have a completely dynamic variable sized font face.  i have an arbritary display area allocated to render a string, should i simply always render the font as large as possible within the dimensions available?  (the alternative to to also record the displayed size and a load of other dpi related stuff)21:42
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GAN800RX-51 is confirmed?21:45
GAN800Well, coroberated. :P21:46
StskeepsGAN800: it's in a boot script21:47
Stskeepswhere it checks for internal MMC existence21:47
StskeepsRX-34, RX-44, RX-48 and now RX-5121:47
GAN800Must be then21:47
* GAN800 spazzes as microb tops itself while I'm typing.21:47
Stskeepsi've been trawling commits out of boredom21:47
GAN8003 times!21:48
Stskeepsi would kill for a microb replacement, like, using webkit or something21:48
StskeepsUI is fine and integrated, but engine..21:48
GAN800Now I can stop calling it the N900 anyway21:48
GAN800If it would just stop topping itself21:49
GAN800Does Fennec top three times for every freaking page load?21:49
GAN800What an attention whore21:49
GAN800Steal focus21:50
Pavlovmm, it shouldn't21:50
GAN800Move to the front21:50
Pavlovbut not sure21:50
GAN800'Hey, I'm trying to type on IRC--NOOO! look at meee!'21:50
Pavlova2pre is looking pretty good21:50
GAN800Extras? :p21:52
StskeepsGAN800: i have to punch mauku a couple of times to make it keep down :P21:52
PavlovGAN800: it'll be in extras when it comes out21:52
GAN800Pavlov, er, a2 or 1.0?21:54
* Stskeeps still thinks there should be OS support for developer PPA's or something21:55
Stskeepsso it goes ppa -> extras-devel -> extras21:55
GAN800Stskeeps, propose it in a wiki page and hit up -developers.21:55
GAN800Give you something to do if you're bored.21:56
Stskeepsi'm reading up on an ARG i haven't caught up on since monday since gf has been home21:56
Stskeepswill add the PPA idea to my ottodo21:56
PavlovGAN800: a221:57
GAN800Pavlov, ah, excellent! Thanks! :)21:57
Pavlovwe've got most perf problems fixed21:57
Pavlovso should be good to push up there21:57
Pavlov(still room for improvement, but it is quite usable)21:57
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Pavlovi'll look in to that focus thing21:58
Pavlovdunno what would be causing that21:58
GAN800Apparently it's also a bug in Firefox on the desktop22:06
GAN800it's just way more irritating in Matchbox22:06
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RST38hGAN: How is black friday?22:23
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GAN800RST38h, we went to Home Depot and got some cheap plants. :p22:33
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RST38hNoo gaaagdets? =)22:44
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hung_andrewHello all! pls, help me. I am trying to install maemo SDK 4.1.1. I am on step 1: installing 4.1.1 scratchbox via installer script. Script Already downloaded all tgz`s and unpacked them. Now I have a problem: after I am trying to command Scratchbox login... yesScratchbox login executable... noE: Scratchbox login found but not executable by user.E: Please check that user is member of the group specified in scratchboxE: installation (default 'sbox').E: Also22:54
hung_andrewding group membership.[andrey@localhost Desktop]$22:54
GAN800RST38h, nah, 14k to fix the pool and patio was enough ;)22:54
woglindegives you in which groups you are22:54
hung_andrewI cannot run sdk installer script after that22:55
woglindehung_andrew what is the output of the commad 'id'22:56
woglindewithout the '22:56
hung_andrewuid=500(andrey) gid=500(andrey) группы=10(wheel),19(proc),22(cdrom),71(floppy),80(cdwriter),81(audio),83(radio),110(xgrp),500(andrey),501(camera),502(scanner)22:56
hung_andrewno group sbox you mean?22:56
qwerty12_N800hung_andrew, sudo /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_adduser andrey yes22:57
woglindeafter editing /etc/goup you have to login new22:57
woglindeqwerty ah hm22:57
hung_andrewoh. thanks. A am not expirienced user with linux yet22:57
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qwerty12_N800after running sbox_adduser, logout and then login22:58
woglindeqwerty so scratchbox/sbin/sbox_adduser edits the host /etc/group ?23:00
hung_andrew/etc/group or ***/scratchbox/etc/group?23:00
qwerty12_N800woglinde, think so. at least ubuntu's user management tool showed me as belonging to sbox23:00
woglindeqerty okay23:00
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