IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2008-11-17

Stskeepshah, i didn't know tutorial-applet could be used as a standalone flash player00:02
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, hmm?00:02
lcukStskeeps, neat eh00:02
Stskeepsyeah, that's truely awesome00:02
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GeneralAntillesWe can yank a few of the old ones, then.00:08
Stskeepsrespect to nokia about libconic's true purpose, they actually insist on their apps using libconic, and not talking directly to ICD00:12
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Meiz_n810Stskeeps: Segmentation fault is really annoying, every second installation ends up with it00:16
StskeepsMeiz_n810: gimme a copy of your debootstrap.log next time00:16
Stskeepswhen it fails00:16
Stskeeps(it may be in var/log/bootstrap.log too)00:17
Meiz_n810it failed now00:17
Stskeepsthen get me that :P00:17
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Meiz_n810where is the log file?00:18
Stskeepsdebootstrap/debootstrap.log or var/log/bootstrap.log00:18
Stskeepson the target00:18
Meiz_n810found it00:18
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* AngieQ wonders if there is a keylogger for the n81000:24
StskeepsMeiz_n810: k, i'm giving you a scp account :P00:24
StskeepsMeiz_n810: k, i'm giving you a scp account sec00:24
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: done00:29
bef0rdwiki seems to be broken :/00:30
GeneralAntillesWorking fine00:30
GeneralAntillesReload. . . .00:30
lcukGeneralAntilles seems to be broken :P00:32
bef0rdoh, weird, I get a blank page at
GeneralAntillesMake sure you clear any cache.00:32
bef0rdbut other pages work00:32
qwerty12_N800bef0rd, ctrl+shift+r00:32
mikkov_one of the mystic bugs of
GeneralAntillesNot really mystic00:33
GeneralAntillesThey just need to upgrade them damn server already.00:33
mikkov_it must be mystic if it takes this long to fix ;)00:33
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bef0rdthanks qwerty12_N800, that actually worked. I was using ctrl + r only :P00:34
StskeepsMeiz_n810: looks perfectly sane00:36
johnxhildon-common-strings-l10n will probably fill out more of the strings in hildon-desktop00:36
Stskeepsi mean, common and all..00:36
johnxalso a dep of hildon-input-method00:37
* lcuk 's arms are gonna drop off00:38
Stskeepswhat on earth have you been doing?00:39
lcukand im a seriously out of shape computer geek, i do this perhaps 2-3 times a year mainly cos it takes so long to recover00:40
lcukstretches my back out though00:40
johnxso does a torture rack00:40
lcukcan you still buy them>?00:40
lcukit would be easier00:41
AngieQmmmmm, the rack....00:41
* lcuk laughs at the SNL "iRack" skit00:41
Stskeepsjohnx: powerlaunch up00:42
Stskeepspowered is probably of most interest00:42
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johnxI'll put hildon-input-* up and then probably pass out somewhere00:43
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Stskeepssame here00:43
Stskeepsfor end result M-R base we should abstract out some of the powered part.. or even hint austin about this work00:45
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Stskeepslike, LED control doesn't always make sense :P00:45
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* Stskeeps wonders idly if powerlaunch is turing complete.00:52
lcukdamn, my lifetime record 2 week linux uptime died along with my battery00:52
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* qwerty12_N800 used to have fun running uptimed on the tablet :P00:54
Stskeepsokay. seriously, powerlaunch is a small programming language.00:55
Stskeepsno wonder noone can figure out how it works00:55
GeneralAntillespowerlaunch typically hasn't been stable enough when I've tried to use it.00:55
GeneralAntillesIt needs another layer of abstraction for humans.00:55
Stskeepsoh, i agree, but it is a systemui+mce replacement00:56
lcukheh "powerlaunch2, now with butler service"00:56
GeneralAntillesA half-dozen pretty, clean, useful default setups would do wonders for its adoption rate.00:56
* Stskeeps plans to abuse the std conf in m-r00:56
GeneralAntillesCurrently it's a bit like being handed a Build Your Own Formula 1 Car kit00:57
GeneralAntillesWith the only instructions being "Put all the parts together"00:57
Stskeeps.. if i can figure out how the heck it's glued togethher00:57
johnxGeneralAntilles, so you mean it's the best day of your whole life?00:57
GAN800Hehe, if only I had that much free time. ;)00:58
GAN800But while that might be fun for a lot of us, normal people look at it and run screaming.00:59
Stskeepsi mean..00:59
Stskeepson_show = if $offline inofflinemode innormalmode; widget_list systemui_menu.main.treeview tklock "Lock touch screen and keys" softpoweroff "Soft poweroff" switch_mode $mode_text device_lock "Lock device" reboot "Reboot" shutdown "Switch off!"; widget_set systemui_menu.main.treeview 0; widget_focus systemui_menu.main.treeview; widget_show systemui_menu00:59
Stskeepsi start to wonder if he has a JIT and a bytecode interpreter in there too..01:00
GeneralAntillesIf somebody would just take the time to put together a control panel and preset pack.01:01
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johnxthat's pretty crazy01:04
johnxis it turing complete?01:04
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Stskeepsyes, that was what i was pondering01:04
johnxwhy settle for a power daemon that is anything less? :D01:04
Stskeepsthis is insane enough to make me think that definately should be in m-r01:04
GeneralAntillesOnly if you actually provide sane defaults.01:05
GeneralAntillesOtherwise you're just being mean to normal people.01:05
Stskeepsyes, ofcourse01:05
* Stskeeps ponders if MCE led patterns are copyrighted.01:09
Stskeeps"PatternPsychedelia" (from mce.ini)01:10
Stskeepstablet going into a seizure?01:10
johnxI'd love to see that go to court01:10
GeneralAntillesSomebody should do a morse set01:10
johnxwhat about tablet-to-tablet communication with LED flashes picked up by the camera?01:11
Stskeepsright, this is getting insane enough for me to head to bed :P01:11
johnxme too, I can't really think coherently about packaging any more, but I think we'll have a working hildon-input-method in a couple minutes01:12
lcukjohnx, i believe we considered semaphore with that before linuxtag01:12
johnx:D could you do uucp over that?01:13
lcukproblem is the data rate01:14
lcuki suppose you could multiplex and use all 3 colors01:14
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lcukand filter it01:14
johnxnot on an n800 :/01:14
lcukor just use a matrix on the screen01:14
GeneralAntilles. . . and this is better than Bluetooth, why? :P01:15
johnxheh, dynamically generated qr codes?01:15
* GeneralAntilles slaps everyone in the room with a reality check.01:15
lcukbluetooth is so harsh and computery, you want something warm and cosy like blinding someone by shining an n8x0 strobe at them01:16
johnxyou compile hildon deps for a couple days and tell me how well you maintain your objective grip on reality :P01:16
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johnxalso, it's an excuse to bring back uucp01:17
lcukuucp over tcp :)01:18
johnxnah, that would take all the unreliability out of it01:18
johnxthat's like cheating01:18
lcukget me a back-hoe and ill bring back the "reliability" you seek01:18
lcuk(and a ticket to your country - japan isnt it?)01:19
johnxthat's what the host mask says I guess :)01:19
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johnxMand off to sleep with me. O_o01:28
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GeneralAntillesSome people just don't get open source. . . .03:06
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: what happened ?03:09
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nelsonGeneralAntilles: why do you say that?  In essence, every distro the marks software it includes as "Ready for mainstream use"03:17
smackpotatoive enjoyed going from the early 770 when almost nothing was available to now where there are a lot of programs available03:18
nelsonSomeone could easily set up a package feed which includes all the ITT software they feel is ready for prime time.03:18
nelsonIt would make TokyoDan happy, and the rest of us could get on with our lives without worry about what TokyoDan thinks.03:19
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GeneralAntillesnelson, it's a historical thing from TokyoDan.03:20
GeneralAntillesnelson, he's posted at least 3 of the exact same thread.03:21
nelsonyou mean he's been making this complaint for a while?03:21
nelsonOh, I see.  Well, then follow Nelson's Dictum:   "There are no problems; only unmet business opportunities."03:21
smackpotatohe must be an apple mole03:21
GeneralAntilleslol, smackpotato, nice call. :)03:22
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GeneralAntillesIt's also hilarious that he's using reported bugs as a metric for tracking buginess.03:35
jagernotok my synth is almost ready for prime time...its wrapped up nicely into a .deb so if u can play with it on ur tablet and comments welcome.03:36
jagernota box guitar for n81003:36
smackpotatoawsum jagernot03:55
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zakkmDoes chinook repositories / apps work in diablo ?03:55
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jagernotthanks smack03:57
jagernotmy app is build on chinook zak04:00
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jagernothhow do i take screenshot of my app in maemo?04:04
GeneralAntillesx11vnc is an OK answer04:05
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Pavlovhrm, how did my scratchbox setup go from working to not09:13
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Meiz_n810is there a better script to place ln -s /dev/fb0 /dev/fb than rc.local?09:17
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Pavlovdid some recent ubuntu update screw up scratchbox?09:18
StskeepsMeiz_n810: we are looking into a udev conf09:20
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Meiz_n810midori seems to take a lot space..09:23
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Meiz_n81023mb uncompressed09:24
Stskeepsediting the script or?09:24
Meiz_n810midori takes 23 mb09:25
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Meiz_n810StsN800: can i add ln -s to the beginning of /etc/init.d/udev?09:32
StsN800no, sort out how /etc/udev works09:33
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StsN800Meiz_n810, when you get bored look into how powerlaunch works (, looking at their docs and scm on project page09:40
Meiz_n810StsN800: I am at school so i AM bored =P09:41
StsN800it will probably be next step we take (its basically a daemon configurable to react to everything on a tablet09:41
StsN800and just be sure to pass lukio(?) with good grades so you can start uni eventually and make $$09:42
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StsN800school sucks.10:31
StsN800im sitting in a adhoc made group and noone prepared except me. and i need coffee10:32
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VeggenStsN800: I have news for you: It doesn't necessarily get much better after graduating and starting to work, either :)10:33
VeggenSo that group is probably a very realistic preparation for work.10:33
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StsN800true, i should enjoy being able to shout at people while i can10:43
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Meiz_n810what i should do with powerlaunch?10:50
StsN800look at data/ in the source on project page and docs on site10:50
StsN800and try to get an understanding of it10:51
Meiz_n810system.conf seems to contain many dbus commands about power management...10:52
Meiz_n810and also offline-mode etc..10:53
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StsN800yeah, its a script language10:54
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StsN800it does very little on its own10:54
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JaffaMorning, all10:55
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prakwhat would you recommend for viewing videos on n810?11:09
prakin terms of video players?11:09
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mavhcmplayer for anything not h264, built in media player for h26411:13
prakwhat about wmv files?11:13
praki have trouble fast forwarding with mplayer though11:14
mavhcusing the dpad?11:15
prakthe dpad on the left side of the keypad?11:15
mavhcleft/right 15 seconds, up/down 1 min11:16
praki wasn't aware that i can fast forward using up/down too11:17
mavhcalso menu key brings up a 15 min option11:17
mavhcand you can make your own config file11:17
prakthanks for your help mavhc11:18
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* StsN800 waits for flash size count with h-i-m on top11:58
* johnx tries to make h-i-m do actually do anything11:59
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StsN800hehe, morning11:59
* aquatix wonders what h-i-m is too12:00
lardmannot h-a-m by chance?12:00
StsN800hildon input method12:00
lardmananother new acronym to learn ;)12:00
* aquatix has a real life keyboard ;)12:00
StsN800johnx, i gave some info to qole at some point on itt12:00
johnxah, I remember that post12:00
johnxI'll look at that12:01
StsN800professor: "that group of people were the ones obama won from bush"12:04
johnx" a high stakes game of poker."12:05
StsN800johnx, 123.8 mb jffs image12:06
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StsN800with him, himf and himpe and libconic12:07
johnxnot too bad12:07
johnxI wonder about libconic though12:07
StsN800libconic is a dbus wrapper12:08
johnxso we could attach the backend to network-manager?12:08
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StsN800johnx, installer updated12:11
johnxah. maemo-launcher wants hildon-initscripts too12:12
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johnxthis might be the challenging part12:12
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StsN800johnx, recompile without it and see if m-l starts up as a daemon or something12:28
johnxI think it might just want hundreds of env variables, but I'll see12:29
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StsN800we should look into init script/dm in image to start hildon too12:36
johnxhow about something that just runs X and X can start the default session12:37
johnxthinking out loud-> maybe have hildon-desktop provide x-window-manager?12:38
StsN800or something12:38
johnxyou're right, probably better12:38
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StsN800i'll play with mce/systemui using powerlaunch probably12:43
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StsN800(is mce a system or session daemon?12:44
johnxI would say system, it's in /sbin/mce12:44
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robtaylorjohnx: yeah, mce is on the system bus,
johnxrobtaylor, thanks :)12:47
robtaylorjohnx: np12:47
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* StsN800 wonders what place mce/dsme will have once ohm is in place12:52
StsN800for now i guess we take diablo structure for now12:52
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johnxI guess so. doesn't seem worth getting too in-depth in that area since ohm is right around the corner12:54
johnxas always: your call12:55
StsN800we will see12:55
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johnxat least the wrongness of session daemons starting from init.d is acknowledged :)12:59
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johnxheh, saw those same cows in the first all your base video13:09
* RST38h saw them on a roadside ad in MD first13:10
RST38hThey had a huge cow puppet "painting" the message at the white ad canvas13:10
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Meiz_n810does the powerlaunch support n810?13:28
Meiz_n810the m-r one?13:29
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StsN800think we might strip it down for n81013:31
StsN800new powerlaunch in extras should be working for n81013:32
Meiz_n810does the one in mrrepo workxå13:33
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* johnx sighs13:51
johnxhildon-input-method is crashing with an X error13:51
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ccookeSeems I accidentally turned off the icd2 service while playing with the services control panel14:17
ccookeThat was interesting :-)14:17
ccookeBut not as interesting as accidentally touching the "running" button next to the X server entry14:17
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Ramzeskahello world14:59
RST38hshit, is dead again =(14:59
RST38h~curse, Midgard, and 770s it is running on14:59
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator,, Midgard, and 770s it is running on !14:59
badduhello, is there any way to use device file remotely ? nfs seems not be an option15:00
johnxnot that I've heard of recently. what exactly are you trying to do?15:01
RST38hbaddu: You can use scp over WiFi15:01
RST38hor bluetooth object exchange if you are close enough15:02
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badduthe plan was to use tv-card of a linux pc with n80015:02
johnxyou should probably do this at a higher level than direct device access15:02
GAN800RST38h, software upgrade. . . .15:03
johnxRST38h, looks like trolling rather than useful criticism :/15:03
GAN800and are the Chick-fil-A cows some kind of novelty?15:03
baddujohnx: do you know that there is a project or something for that? i suppose using ssh and player of the pc would be too heavy15:04
johnxbaddu, maybe look at a mythtv client, or mediaserv15:04
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johnxif you're already using mythtv (or something similar) things are lot simpler15:05
baddui guess it would work nicely if nfs would have exported device files15:05
johnxprobably not15:05
badduok, i believe you :)15:05
GAN800lol, I love it when websites scroll a giant advertisement right into the middle of your window from somewhere offscreen15:05
johnxeven if it worked the way you think it would, the latency would be pretty incredible15:05
badduit doesn't support anwyay15:06
Guysoft42hey, is there a way to start up a nokia n810 in mute?15:06
baddui don't use anything yet, i checked that maemo myth but it was pretty immature15:06
baddui compiled dvb support to mplayer .. probably i could start with that15:07
GAN800Somebody should link Peter to the dozens of old tablet name threads.15:07
johnxwell, if you install mythtv on the machine with the TV card and just use the web based UI to set which show to record you can just open the recorded file from the server15:07
oilinkibaddu: you have an pc with dvb card and wish to see the show live?15:08
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badduyeah i at least dream to see the live broadcast instead of recorded15:09
oilinkiwould the vlc streaming option be any help?15:09
baddui don't know much about that.. do you know if it wuold? :)15:10
infobotbaddu meant: i don't know much about that.. do you know if it would? :)15:11
oilinkiwell, I tried it with sopcast at some point... I got an picture, but n810 could not handle the feed very well.  try it out, if it would suit for you.15:11
baddui probably do that , thanks15:12
oilinkihopefully it would work for you.15:13
StskeepsRST38h: there was an announcement out earlier15:13 is nice if you don't mind spending a little extra15:14
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RST38hjohnx: I wouldn't take it as trolling right away15:17
RST38hSts,GAN: What are you talking about guys?15:17
RST38hSts,GAN: Something happened?15:18
GAN800Check maemo-community. :)15:18
RST38hIf you mean, it seems to be in the permanent upgrade mode lately =)15:18
johnxI assume15:18
RST38hjohnx: As to the article, the author does make a valid point15:19
RST38hjohnx: Once it looks like a laptop, people expect it to work like a laptop15:19
johnxin an unnecessarily trollish tone to get people kvetching about it15:19
RST38hjohnx: It comes from TheRegister - they always write this way15:20
GAN800Welcome to tech journalism. ;)15:20
johnxwhich is why I rarely bother even reading them15:20
RST38hThey are the original BOFHs, johnx =)15:20
johnxwelcome to pissing off your readers :)15:20
johnxnah, the BOFH is the original BOFH. accept no substitute15:20
RST38hwhich is why I am only reading them :)15:20
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RST38hbetter be offended every now and then than deal with soft-pedaling hacks15:21
johnx"better to offend with substance, than style"15:22
johnxto paraphrase15:22
RST38hThey are a bunch of cynical snobbish brits, whaddayawant? After all, it is what makes them different from 99% other "tech journalists"15:22
johnxand as expected it has nothing new except the word "weaktop"15:22
RST38htrue, this stuff has been known for quite a while now15:23
johnxbut really, most people seem to spend most of their time in a browser and some in an office suite15:25
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RST38hjohnx: the problem is that most people seem to use their computers for other things as well, every now and then15:26
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RST38hTHAT is what kills Linux on those "ne-tops" :)15:26
johnxwell the linux distro on most of them is the weak point15:26
johnxshipping a really vanilla ubuntu would be a monumental step forward15:27
RST38hyes, they sell much better with XP :)15:27
RST38hMSI top honcho quoted return rates being 3 times higher for Linux running nettops (same make and model)15:27
johnxwell there are more factors at work than linux vs windows15:28
RST38hjohnx: Another factor is the CPU speed15:29
GAN800The tablet form-factor stuff has the advantage of not being remotely laptop-like15:29
RST38hGAN: exactly.15:29
GAN800people don't generally care if their cellphones have Office15:29
RST38hsmae with smartphones15:29
johnxI can agree with that overall. People have problems dealing with small changes more than large changes15:29
johnxthe problem is fundamental inflexibility in people's minds :)15:30
RST38hjohnx: presenting people with something that looks familiar but is different freaks them out15:30
GAN800I'd wonder if pushing a non-Windows-esque UI for Linux on netbooks would help.15:30
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errordeveloperhey ..15:30
RST38hGAN: So far it does not15:30
errordeveloperi'm trying to figure out a trick15:30
errordeveloperso the files put onto a memory card when connected via usb15:31
GAN800RST38h, well, also one that doesn't suck. But I guess those don't materialize out of thin air.15:31
errordeveloperwould appear to mamemo as they got uid=2999915:31
errordevelopernot the id of the user who put the files from the linux box15:32
johnxRST38h, well so far netbook manufacturers have assumed that having some lone programmer put a weeks into customizing a linux distro rather than hiring someone who knows what the hell they're doing is a good idea15:32
RST38hGAN: Mimicking Windoze seems to be a better marketing move at the moment15:32
errordeveloperso i'd like to add something to fstab of the linux machine15:32
RST38hGAN: Both ASUS and MSI have non-Windoze Linux UIs15:32
RST38hjohnx: That is normal given that theu are Chinese15:32
johnxRST38h, wow...very classy stereotyping15:33
RST38hjohnx: It is much cheaper and corresponds to their "we can do it ourselves" mentality15:33
RST38hjohnx: Oh, I know what I am talking about.15:33
RST38hjohnx: But just wait and see - the next wave will either switch to XP or use a better desktop15:33
johnxanyways, asus actually is a bad example since they did a pretty good job with their linux version15:33
GAN800johnx, little reactionary there? :P15:34
johnxerrordeveloper, is this with the card mounted as vfat or ext2/3?15:34
johnxGAN800, I don't react well to sweeping statements like that15:35
RST38hjohnx: Biases exist for a reason15:35
johnxanyways, hp is doing their own thing too15:35
johnxthey do look to be doing a better job of it though.15:36
RST38hjohnx: As long as you do not persist in your bias, it will help rather than harm15:36
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RST38hHP is much more expensive though, almostlike a real computer15:36
johnx$380 or so with linux?15:37
RST38hAh it is 380 now?15:37
johnxnot now, actually january15:38
johnxit appears they're taking time to get the linux stuff right15:38
johnxstill, I tend to dislike the "thin, slick looking shell that launches normal software" approach15:38
* RST38h wonders whether Nokia will kill Maemo off as part of the downsizing strategy =(15:38
VeggenI seem to remember the boss for Asus EEE-things saying that the return rate for Windows and Linux EEEs are in the same ballpart.15:39
Veggeneh, ballpark.15:39
RST38hjohnx: People tried slick looking shells back in 80486 times, didn't work15:39
johnxthey just keep trying them though15:39
johnxactually I wonder about the return rate on WinMo phones with touch-flo or similar15:39
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johnxit's basically a hybrid between "actually improving things" and "bait and switch"15:40
GAN800RST38h, considering that they're actively hiring new people and just opened a new Maemo Software location in California, I kind of doubt it.15:40
RST38hVeggen: Dunno about ASUS, here is MSI:
RST38hGAN: All it takes is a single executive decision =(15:41
johnxthe difference being that msi did a crap job on their linux distro and asus actually put work into it15:41
RST38hGAN: I kinda like Symbian but I would rather like to see Nokia switch to Maemo15:41
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RST38hjohnx: I have seen MSI in a local store - their menu isn't much worse or better than ASUS'15:42
GAN800Maemo on cellphones make no sense to me.15:42
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johnxexactly, the thin shell looks ok, but apparently it has problems beneath it, whereas the eee is pretty consistent15:42
RST38hGAN: Why?15:42
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GAN800It just isn't designed for making and receiving calls on a small screen.15:43
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GAN800Besides, I'd never accept this kind of reliability from my cellphone. ;)15:44
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RST38hGAN: You are talking about UI rather than the system. I don't think porting S60 to Maemo will be THAT bad15:44
johnxmaemo is the UI :)15:44
RST38hThey already ported S90 UI *and* they managed to port S60 to Java (S40)15:44
GAN800What is Maemo without the ui, though.15:44
johnxbeneath it it's a hacked up debian 200515:44
RST38hHey I thought everybody hated Maemo UI? =)15:45
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RST38hjohnx: Better that than the multithreaded Symbian hell15:45
GAN800it has its rough edges, but works well enough overall for what it is.15:45's the same people who think that a desktop UI on a handheld device is a good idea15:45
* GAN800 shudders at the idea of shuffling windows around with a stylus15:46
GAN800I'd like to see one of those people using their tablet15:46
johnxeh, they just hunch over it and peck away15:46
GAN800it must be some sort of front to try to look cool or something. . . .15:46
johnxnah, they actually don't mind15:47
RST38hGAN: Look at the Road Tycoon clone for Maemo - it makes you shuffle little windows with a stylus15:47
johnxsome people even drive frontwheel drive cars15:47
VeggenRST38h: ya, but I've seen ASUS-boss saying that they are similar between Windows and Linux.15:47
GAN800RST38h, eh, games are a different story.15:47
GAN800johnx, :(((15:47
RST38hVeggen: Good for them then, although I would like to hear a few more manufacturers on this15:47
RST38hjohnx: With auto gearshift, no doubt?15:48
johnxGAN800, had to take a swing at you. :D my point being that some people can tolerate stuff that just drives others crazy15:48
VeggenRST38h: my point was that probably a bad Linux-install made by people not knowing what they are doing is worse than Windows, but doing it properly, things are different.15:48
GAN800I had my grand awakening just after I bought my Camry15:48
GAN800But at least it's a 5-speed15:48
VeggenAnd you *will* have a lot of people that does not grasp the concept that "another OS" might not be "exactly as Windows" :)15:49
johnxright, and some of the people once handed a desktop UI on a handheld will wake up and say "this sucks, it isn't at all what I wanted."15:49
johnxand some will tolerate it for some reason the rest of us can't fathom15:49
johnxVeggen, the problem is thar marketing willfully contributes to that confusion15:50
Veggenjohnx: mm, true.15:50
* GAN800 tires of having to pay attention to Jaiku because of those two m-r assholes. . . .15:51
johnxGAN800, actually this is working pretty well15:52
johnxthe jaiku setup I mean15:53
johnxit makes me a lot more willing to document when it's a really short form15:53
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* GAN800 demands IRC msgs custom-tailored to my experience-level. 15:53
johnxjust subscribe to it as RSS15:53
johnxi mean, you use a feed reader, right?15:54
GAN800I don't do RSS. :p15:54
johnxdo you want us to send up smoke signals? wave flags?15:54
GAN800I've tried many times, but they all just piss me off.15:54
johnxI'd think the Mac would have a really slick one15:54
GAN800Imma setup an intercom in my living room15:54
GAN800I suspect they are slick, but RSS totally doesn't work for me.15:55
johnxintegrate with your mail reader maybe?15:55
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RST38hGAN: Try Google reader15:55
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GAN800*squawk*Uh, we're uploading the new hildon-desktop build now . . . over and out.15:55
RST38hGAN: Btw, its iPhone version works perfectly on tablets15:56
GAN800johnx, tried that, too.15:56
* RST38h imagines what will happen when Nokia finally disables page fitting option in MicroB...15:57
johnxGAN800, so wait a squawk and spoken message is preferable? O_o15:57
GAN800Absolutely nothing because it sucks and nobody uses it?15:57
johnxRST38h, it will stop slowing down and dying as often?15:57
RST38hGoogle Reader and lots of other pages will suddenly look like shit15:57
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RST38hjohnx: well, I don't think it will stop doing that (for other reasons)15:57
GAN800johnx, as long as I don't have to actively search them out. :P15:58
RST38hBut there is a bunch of often used web sites (like the Reader) that will suddenly get ugly scrollbars15:58
RST38hEspecially when zoomed15:58
* GAN800 dies of cold.15:58
RST38hMaybe a "fit text for this site" option is required, I dunno15:59
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johnxa little per site css is often a great fix16:00
GeneralAntillesWell, RST38h, the good news is that since MicroB is 100% open in Fremantle, you'll be able to implement it yourself (or coerce somebody else into implementing it).16:00
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GeneralAntillesWoo, Harmattan will support NTP and GPS-sync.16:01
johnxuhm...that's *how many years out*?!16:02
GeneralAntillesDepends if it's 5.1 or 6.016:02
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RST38hGAN: I would still suggest leaving it in (maybe inaccessible from the top menu)16:03
GeneralAntillesRST38h, in its current form, it just hurts users.16:03
GeneralAntillesTrust me, I've run a LOT of interference with them. :)16:03
GeneralAntillesFeck, it's 58°F in here.16:03
solarionGeneralAntilles: that's happy computers16:04
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GeneralAntillesCPU temp finally dipped under 60°C16:05
johnxis that on the G5?16:05
solarionit's good to have a big bath to sink your heat into16:05
johnxCPU temp is a pleasent 33C here16:05
RST38hPentiumIV at 2.4GHz will heat up this much16:05
GeneralAntillesIt runs in the 70s usually16:05
RST38hespecially if you do not cool it well16:05
GeneralAntillesProbably the hottest computer Apple has every manufactured.16:06
* solarion wonders if the eee's do thermal info16:06
johnxsolarion, acpi -t16:06
GeneralAntilles nice16:06
solarionjohnx: thanks.  I'm so used to the acpi not supporting things that I've since stopped poking around16:07
johnxsolarion, it was just a guess, but most laptops seem to support it, even older ones16:07
GeneralAntillesandre__, Sean Luke's bugs are pre-template. ;)16:08
solarionjohnx:sounds good16:08
solarionjohnx: how long have they and linux gotten along in this respect?16:08
solarionperhaps it was my dell i860016:08
andre__GeneralAntilles, +1 :-D16:08
andre__well, probably you're right16:09
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GeneralAntillesHis bugs are usually pretty useless anyway.16:09
GeneralAntillesLargely amounting to "x sucks"16:09
andre__however, that specific one i didn't understand even after reading three times16:09
andre__(if we refer to the same one - read too many bugs in the last hours)16:09
johnxsolarion, well I haven't had a laptop until recently, but my toshiba from 2002 (I got it used) supported acpi -t since 200716:10
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* GeneralAntilles is tired of cleaning up incompetent people's lists
andre__yepp, that one16:11
andre__we should just disallow anonymous edits16:12
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GeneralAntillesandre__, I agree.16:12
GeneralAntillesBut fanoush and qgil don't seem to.16:12
RST38hAnd track and kill all the anonymouses16:12
RST38hOr at least kill one ritually and post the video onto wiki top page16:12
andre__at least we'd know who exactly to blame for that posting :-P16:13
GeneralAntillesI wonder if mediawiki will allow you to require logins to edit talk pages.16:15
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Stskeeps"Woo, Harmattan will support NTP and GPS-sync.16:30
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MeizirkkiI have now Qemu set up with m-r, can i (try to) compile something for m-r?16:31
Stskeepsyou got it running with the n800 emulation?16:32
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Meizirkkino, i just have the m-r installed...
Stskeepsso m-r on a versatilepb ;)16:34
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GeneralAntilles Stskeeps16:34
Meizirkkiis that enough?16:34
StskeepsMeizirkki: you might have to get the n800 emulation running but that's more difficult, as versatilepb doesn't have that many colours in the display16:35
Meizirkkii will try to get the n8x0 emulation16:36
Stskeepsit's good enough for compiling16:36
Stskeepsi use the same16:36
Meizirkkithen i just want to compile something :)16:36
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: and neat :P i guess they're working on harmattan plans now16:36
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MeizirkkiWhat should i try to compile first?16:37
Stskeepsadvanced backlight16:38
Stskeepsremember to add the repos16:38
* johnx continues to fight with hildon-input-method16:39
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GeneralAntillesand for another somewhat interesting list for those not paying attention:
GeneralAntillesNew midgard toolbar16:40
Stskeepsjohnx: what issues are you having?16:41
johnxit briefly tries to show the keyboard but immediately dies with an X error16:41
GeneralAntillesDownloads doesn't feel quite so horrifyingly slow.16:42
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Stskeepsgenerally impressed? :P16:42
GeneralAntillesSlightly less unsatisfied. ;)16:42
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: We're working on it ;)16:43
GeneralAntillesAlthough I guess this is a software-only improvement, which is more impressive.16:43
Stskeepswoo, activity on #385816:43
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, did you CC Quim or did he pick it up from the Bug Jar?16:44
Stskeepsthink he picked it up16:44
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GeneralAntillesIt's interesting the activity that the Bug Jar generates.16:44
Stskeepsthink i should cc him on anything i find that has to do with alignment, or? :P16:44
GeneralAntillesI wouldn't necessarily CC on every trivial thing, but if there's a slightly bigger issue. . . .16:45
GeneralAntillesAlso consider CCing Eero.16:45
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, I feel somewhat inclined towards rating and commenting on applications now. :P16:46
Stskeepsbug jar is weekly?16:46
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Yeah, now the html page is returned in a pretty decent time.16:46
GeneralAntillesEvery Monday16:46
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Next thing is setting up for the static files.16:46
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GeneralAntillesHrm, that reminds me. I need to harass Hava about Extras again. . . .16:47
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RST38hAnd make them commit the hardware t extras as well!16:52
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, the day hardware replication is free is the day the world ends.16:53
Stskeepsand the AI making it possible starts replicating itsdelf16:53
GeneralAntilles I still can't get any of these pages to load.16:53
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Works for me.16:54
GeneralAntillesLast time it was a server-side timeout after 30s16:55
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RST38h"Stallman Unsure Whether Firefox Is Truly Free"17:01
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, it's just timing out client-side now here.17:03
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Yeah, working on it.17:03
* GeneralAntilles launches TODOs at X-Fade.17:04
GeneralAntillesI'll shut up now. ;)17:04
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: i was so pissed yesterday when i read the post from TokyoDan or something17:05
GeneralAntillesI swear that's a tactic Microsoft's anti-Linux campaign uses17:06
GeneralAntillesSomething about Linux distros and Apple pushing more security updates than Microsoft makes them less secure.17:06
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RST38hPushing less security updates than MS also makes you less secure17:10
GeneralAntillesSo you really can have your cake and eat it too? ;)17:10
RST38hObviously, as far as marketing goes17:10
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RST38hBut Linux nuts are guilty of this too17:11
RST38hRemember "BSD is fragmented while Linux is just one product" mantra?17:11
johnxit turns out that there are enough idiots to go around. no need MS to keep them all17:11
RST38hjohnx: Amount of available sentiency is constant while population is growing.17:12
johnxright, it just means we have to shift more of that sentient biomass over to the projects we're interested in17:13
RST38hAnd use the rest for the biogas17:13
mavhcthe bsd vs linux war was secretly engineered by MS and apple17:17
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RST38hWhy don't I see the Trilateral Commission on this list?17:20
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RST38hazerty12 moo17:20
qwerty12moo FST38h17:21
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GeneralAntillesIs there an IRC meeting today?17:26
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GeneralAntilleslardman, ping.17:30
lardmanGeneralAntilles: pong17:31
GeneralAntilleslardman, is GPLv2 acceptable for your en_GB translations? ;)17:31
lardmanyeah, should be ok, i was thinking of using a LGPL, just in case i wanted to sell them, but I'll make do with GPL17:31
lardman;) :D17:31
GeneralAntilleslardman cornering the market on 12 English words.17:32
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lardmangot to start somewhere hey! ;)17:32
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GeneralAntillesI can't believe we don't have any no_NO, pt_PT, or sv_SE people.17:32
lardmandid you email the list again to ask for some?17:32
GeneralAntillesNot yet17:32
lcuk2microsoft have been irking Glazedtransparent curtained not quite doorway cleaners for a while now17:33
qwerty12I've seen quite a few, they must just be hiding :(17:33
GeneralAntillesMy post is still on the front page of Planet.17:33
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lardmanI look at that very infrequently17:33
GeneralAntilleslardman, too bad, you're missing out. ;)17:33
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RST38hGeneral: KotCzarny has offered to do pl_PL but non-anonymous-edits rule stopped him17:37
JaffaRST38h: There are anonymous edits over HTTPS17:37
lardmanyeah, the remaining ones could be sent to the list of course17:37
RST38hJaffa: For unknown reason he didn't use that17:37
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RST38hJaffa: I do think we need to do PL, CZ, and LT as we have people to do these anyway17:38
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qwerty12RST38h, Those 3 languages aren't supported officially in maemo anyway17:39
lardmanyeah, but we could always add support ;)17:39
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lardmanesp as there's demand17:40
rm_youI'm pretty sure I already have a script to do en_US -> en_GB translations :P17:40
rm_younot that we don't love you, lardman :P17:40
lardmans/z/s ??17:40
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rm_youflashlight -> torch17:40
johnxhey rm_you :D17:41
rm_youapartment -> flat17:41
Jaffas/VAT/Sales tax/17:41
rm_youjohnx -> jouhnx :P17:41
RST38hqwerty: Yes but as we have got both translators and users why not have them?17:41
lardmanwhat's gas in the US then, you know the stuff you burn to heat baked beans?17:41
rm_youlardman: propane?17:41
RST38h s/aluminum/aluminium/17:41
rm_younatural gas17:41
lardmanah ok17:41
rm_youone of those two17:41
johnxoften an electric stove though17:41
RST38h  s/nucular/nuclear/ ;)17:42
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qwerty12RST38h, Sure, I think it would be great to support for more languages but I don't see the rest of the UI strings in maemo suddenly getting translated17:42
rm_youpropane is usually barbeque / older gas stoves17:42
rm_younewer use natural gas i think17:42
rm_youor else you can just choose17:42
RST38hrm_you: "natural gas" is a mix of propane, butane and probably a few more17:42
lardmanrm_you: I thought propane was only used for boats (as it is lighter than air), while butane is the usual bottled fuel for other apps?17:42
RST38h+ of course a component to create the smell17:43
rm_youdon't think so17:43
disco_stuNIT's are going to run with gas ?17:43
rm_youdefinitely use propane tanks for my barbeque17:43
johnxfor small bottles it's butane17:43
lardmanfair enough17:43
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johnxfor refillable ones it's propane or natural gas prolly17:43
rm_youcamping stoves use like... white gas17:44
rm_youor something like that17:44
disco_stuhere we use isobutane and isopropane17:44
RST38hsame thing17:44
disco_stuand natual gas compressed to run cars17:44
RST38hslightly differently arranged molecule17:44
rm_youjohnx: looking forward to winter break :P17:44
disco_stucars and busses17:44
johnxrm_you, yes indeed. I'm going to hijack you for some coding projects for sure :D17:45
RST38hdisco_stu: They make a nice BOOM! when the gas tank gets punctured =)17:45
disco_stuRST38h: not at all17:45
RST38hdisco_stu: They do here =)17:45
disco_stuRST38h: we use nice tanks17:45
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lardmanyou mean they wait until after 8am to go boom?17:46
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disco_stulardman: they dont explode at all17:47
RST38h(imagine the rest yourself)17:47
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GeneralAntillesThey look like this over here:
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_786soulIm SO excited I just picked up an N810!!!17:48
GeneralAntillesDon't drop it!17:49
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johnxhi _786soul :)17:49
RST38hGeneral: Is that the one locals call "Our pelin? =)17:49
_786souljohnx: haha hello! :)17:49
infobotRST38h meant: General: Is that the one locals call "Our Zeppelin? =)17:49
gregoroviusfor all you bacon lovers:
GeneralAntillesRST38h, sorry, I don't follow.17:50
_786soulI just flashed the device and I'm ready to start hacking away :). Extras repository here i come!17:50
Juhazmythbusters shot the crap out of a propane tank and even used tracer and phosphor rounds, no boom whatsoever. well, until they used explosives.17:50
RST38hGeneral: Zeppelin was the german guy who pioneered hydrogen filled airships17:50
* lardman must finish watching his MythBusters DVD :)17:50
johnxmmm...Zeppelin NT17:50
RST38hGeneral: The airship era officially ended when one of his ships spectacularly blew up17:50
lardmanwell it burned really didn't it, rather than blowing up17:51
GeneralAntillesA little roundabout there. . .17:51
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GeneralAntillesand, yes, I'm familiar with the word and the history. :)17:51
GeneralAntillesThe relationship to buses is somewhat specious, though. ;)17:51
RST38hGeneral: There was a CNN (?) report about propane-powered buses in some US city where locals called them "our zeppelins" with obvious connotations17:51
GeneralAntillesMust've missed that one.17:52
RST38hDC has also got these btw and they do smell less17:52
lardmangregorovius: nice :)17:52
GeneralAntillesThey have them here, too.17:52
glassthey're pretty common17:52
mavhcRST38h: because they were painted in thermite?17:52
GeneralAntillesNatural gas buses are pretty common, actually.17:52
rm_youjohnx: off to class17:52
johnxlater rm_you17:52
rm_youGeneralAntilles too :P17:52
johnxcome by more often :P17:52
RST38hmavhc: heh, was that true?!?17:53
* GeneralAntilles throws rocks at rm_you.17:53
rm_youI wish i had time :P17:53
rm_youonly here now while GF gets ready to go17:53
rm_youand... leaving17:53
* rm_you waves17:53
disco_stuhere thousands of vehicles run on gas, none of them never exploded or damaged because of the gas tank/system17:54
Stskeepsjohnx: still exploding h-i-m?17:54
mavhcRST38h: kinda, see mythbusters17:54
GeneralAntillesdisco_stu, so what you're saying is they've all exploded? :P17:54
RST38hmavhc: aluminium particles, eh? ;)17:54
mavhcI've never seen a gas powered bus, all the ones near here must have exploded17:54
* aquatix sees those all the time17:55
johnxStskeeps, yeah. :/ the nolauncher build option is b0rken. and I have no leads on the error. but since it's launched by maemo-invoker I don't even know how I should be attaching strace or ltrace to it17:55
infobotdisco_stu meant: here thousands of vehicles run on gas, none of them ever exploded or damaged because of the gas tank/system17:55
GeneralAntillesI like the electric buses in SF17:55
mavhcwe have electric trams17:55
mgedminI like how they have 'Zero Emissions Vehicle' proudly written on them17:56
RST38hnatural gas ones are actually closer to that17:56
mavhcthey don't even emit heat17:56
Stskeepsjohnx: so it's maemo-launcher causing problems?17:56
aquatixmavhc: they don't?17:56
RST38hmavhc: trams emit heat, especially when breaking17:56
aquatixmavhc: that's virtually impossible :)17:56
RST38hthere is a huge resistor bank17:57
aquatixRST38h: indeed17:57
johnxStskeeps, honestly, I don't know what causes the crash, but I'd like to get maemo-launcher out of the equation17:57
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* GeneralAntilles just wants pancakes.17:57
qwerty12johnx, does the flag actually get passed to configure?17:58
aquatixGeneralAntilles: i second that motion17:58
johnxyeah, tried passing directly. it causes configure to fail in an interesting way17:58
johnxtime to dig into it I guess17:58
Stskeepsjohnx: nolauncher on him or maemo-launcher?18:00
RST38hOk, I am going to file a bug (feature request actually) about integrating Symbian-like character palette into virtual keyboard.18:01
RST38hAnybody willing to support?18:01
qwerty12RST38h, I'll vote. That was useful even on an N-Gage18:01
RST38hthe current character palette in Maemo is atrocious really18:01
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Stskeepsjohnx: i'll work on getting startx and such in a package18:02
Stskeepsor what seems sane18:03
johnxstartx or xinit or whatever18:03
GeneralAntillesRST38h, example?18:03
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RST38hGeneral: Get an S60 phone, open notepad app, press the pencil key to input a character18:06
RST38hGeneral: then press pencil key again - you will see a list of recently used characters at the top18:06
GeneralAntillesRST38h, don't have one handy.18:06
RST38ha moment, I will find a screenshot18:06
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RST38hHere is a bug to vote on:
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RST38hGeneral: Like this but with lately used characters n the top row:
RST38h(this screenshot comes from an older S60 version)18:12
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Stskeepsjohnx: btw you do root or an user account, when starting X/hildon and such?18:20
johnxI run as a user18:20
Stskeepsstarting X "raw" or through startx or?18:21
johnxjust "Xorg"18:21
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qwerty12johnx, fixed. Use this :
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johnxqwerty12, you are awesome18:26
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johnxstill not quite working, though I think it's getting farther. I'll post the error up to pastebin but don't worry about it if you don't want to, cause I'm gonna get to bed.
qwerty12I've built a copy of h-i-m with maemo-launcher and without fine in sbox :/. What is your autoconf version?18:54
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qwerty12Hrm, 2.59 so I don't think that makes a difference :/18:56
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qwerty12Is this on a clean tree? (Proper clean that is, not debian/rules's idea of cleaning :))18:56
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johnxI appreciate the help, but I'm about to fall asleep on my keyboard here18:56
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johnxI'll look at it again tomorrow when I can think clearly18:56
johnx'night qwerty12 and thanks again18:57
Meizirkkkiwhere can i get aclocal?18:57
qwerty12'night johnx. No problems :)18:57
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Meizirkkkii am trying to compile advanced-backlight18:57
qwerty12johnx, when[/if] you do see this message, try this one instead : (I shouldn't have moved the AM_CONDITIONAL line, even though *strictly* speaking, it makes no difference really - just an annoyance rather)18:59
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: does your tslib work?20:02
Stskeepsi don't seem to have mine working or something20:02
Meiz_n810It works with me, did you remember to copy poitercal from maemo?20:03
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Meiz_n810it refuses to work if there is no /etc/pointercal20:03
Stskeepsdamnit, fell into my own trap :P20:03
Meiz_n810i was not able to compile a-b20:04
Stskeepswhat error did you run into?20:05
Meiz_n810autogen naggs about sone binaries are missing20:05
Meiz_n810i have installed all build-deps20:05
Stskeepsgot a paste per chance?20:05
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Meiz_n810can't paste from qemu, but it says this for example: automake-1.7 No such file of directory20:06
Stskeepsapt-get install automake1720:06
Meiz_n810fucking homework... =P20:07
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GeneralAntillesandre__, ping.20:14
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, ping.20:16
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, pong20:16
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, what cool packaging features should I stick in my PSA?20:17
GeneralAntillesMaemo-Display-Name, update descriptions, checking to see if a folder was already picked during updates20:17
GeneralAntillesPublic Service Announcement20:17
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qwerty12Dunno really, I'm not the best of packagers... A Maemo-Icon-26 is nice if applicable, and maybe (if the application benefits) using VFP20:19
GeneralAntillesCan you formulate a generic guide to checking whether a user have previously selected a folder?20:20
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mikkov_GeneralAntilles: what do you mean by previously selected folder?20:23
GeneralAntillesWhen you select where you want the .desktop to go in the application menu.20:23
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qwerty12Add 'oldversion="$2"' and 'if [ -z "$oldversion" ]; then' (w/out ') above the maemo-select-menu-location in their postinst and a 'fi' under it20:23
GeneralAntillesRather than a user having to reselect that folder everytime the package is upgraded, it'll check to see if a location has already been picked and suppress the selection dialog if so.20:23
GeneralAntillesThanks, qwerty12.20:24
GeneralAntillesI'll run my description by you after I formulate it. ;)20:24
qwerty12Solmumaha warns me however that using oldversion to check isn't exactly wise though as oldversion can mean more than just an upgrade :) but I've yet to see any other ways of doing so20:24
mikkov_it's not dangerous when we are talking only about maemo-select-menu-location20:25
qwerty12fair enough20:25
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* Stskeeps plays with m-r20:27
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mikkov_ there's all possibilites20:27
* qwerty12 reads up on how to use maemo-launcher. Messing with router toolchains is driving me to the verge of craziness20:27
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user__Stskeeps: is the m-r installer on svn most up-to-date?20:30
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Stskeepsuser__: checkking20:31
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Stskeepsnow it is20:32
Meiz_n810this time, i had input/output errors all the time20:33
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Stskeepssure you remembered to install into a mounted partition?20:33
Stskeepsheh "(WW) OS did not count PCI devices, guessing wildly20:33
Stskeepsthat's the kind of thing you want to see in a X log20:34
Meiz_n810mounted partition?20:34
Meiz_n810i think the partition has to be mounted if i can boot from it20:35
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* qwerty12 uploads the finished "thief's" initfs20:35
StskeepsMeiz_n810: true, so input/output errors when booting?20:35
Meiz_n810no, when trying to run xserver etc...20:36
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Meiz_n810too late..20:37
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Meiz_n810i think my sd can be corrupted... I fail 60% of the times i try to install deblet or m-r20:38
Meiz_n810or maybe it is always my bad =)20:39
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lcuk260% failure rate isnt that bad - you are just being negative.   remember, 40% of people who tried to install it managed to get through20:41
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, can you recommend a link, tool, or something for encoding images into base64?20:41
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, man base6420:42
mikkov_or uuencode -m20:42
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, No, sorry :/. I grab the base64 tool from the certified repository and space out the lines manually for the control file20:42
lcuk2(me has never been able to say that before)20:42
mikkov_base64 is not in sdk?20:44
qwerty12Only source, I can't be arsed to compile it when nokia have already done so :/20:44
qwerty12(but not in the sdk repo)20:44
mikkov_uuencode is in sdk20:44
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* Stskeeps shakes hildon for refusing to give him any icons20:46
Meiz_n810lcuk2: when i said 60% i was being positive =P20:46
GeneralAntillesIf somebody will review what I've got so far . . .
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, that reads really nicely, however i think its gonna get lost in the churn, an additional suggestion would be to see about getting these kind of notes appended to the invitation to upload to extras mail20:49
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, I've got a wiki page hanging around somewhere.20:49
GeneralAntillesA link to in the invite email would work.20:49
lcuk2yeah i used it extensively when i was uploading20:49
lcuk2i went with that one20:49
GeneralAntilles is the other20:50
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GeneralAntillesShorter than I remember. <_<20:50
lcuk2which still specifies signing btw20:50
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* GeneralAntilles gently encourages qwerty12 to contribute to that page with a cattle prod. :P20:50
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, The hint is gently taken :D. I'll try20:51
qwerty12to but there are a lot of better packagers than me :P20:51
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, there does need to be a cross link through with the uploading to extras - ive never seen any of the other packaging info pages20:52
GeneralAntillesIt's like an accomplished biathlete saying he just shoots OK. . . .20:52
lcuk2qwerty12, you are amazing at packaging - you can make sure everyone is called northern20:52
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: should i use -b option with dpkg-buildpackage, when compiling a-b?20:53
qwerty12lcuk2, that postinst was the best :P20:53
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: either one will work20:53
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Stskeepsi just dpkg-buildpacakge really20:53
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, no its not - the Hildon-App-Manager is not required for all packages, and as long as they follow apt-get/debian rules people wont get lost.  however the one specific point when entering maemo is the uploading to extras20:53
lcuk2yes qwerty12_N800 that postinst was the best, you twt20:54
lcuk2ooops, i forgot a vowel20:54
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, I don't follow.20:54
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, that comment was addressed to qwerty1220:55
lcuk2i can build a package without ever knowing that there is a specific program called "hildon-application-manager" (infact i did, it was only recently i found out it had a name)20:55
lcuk2the qwerty one was aimed at qwerty, the GeneralAntilles was aimed at you20:55
lcuk2the vowel one was qwertys20:55
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, fair enough, but what, specifically were you responding to.20:56
GeneralAntillesNo what's not?20:56
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lcuk2i think we got wires a bit crossed up there ^20:56
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GeneralAntillesYeah, so do I. ;)20:56
* lcuk2 drops it and goes and has t20:57
qwerty12_N800lcuk2, i found it more funny that it was included in one of your final releases :p20:57
lcuk2regression testing20:57
lcuk2<< fail20:57
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* qwerty12_N800 wonders how many accepted....20:57
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lcuk2ive actually noticed something more worrying20:58
lcuk2in my debian folder a load of the files are now size 020:58
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qwerty12_N800lcuk2, checked for the debian northerner virus i added to liqbase?21:02
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lcuk2no, but did you find my "if(username=qwerty12){ system.charger.overload(); }" tweak?21:03
* Stskeeps gives up on m-r for today until he finds out how the hell to get icons working on hildon.21:04
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timsamoffHello... Anyone know when the maemo site redesign meeting is today ?21:04
qwerty12_N800lcuk2, south hater!21:04
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X-Fadetimsamoff: some time ago ;)21:04
GeneralAntillestimsamoff, bit of a misfire, apparently.21:04
X-Fadetimsamoff: They were waiting for you..21:04
timsamoffArg. I'm very out of sorts lately.21:05
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GeneralAntillesYou ruined it all.21:05
qwerty12_N800Bad timsamoff.21:05
GeneralAntillesNo, actually, practically nobody showed.21:05
GeneralAntillesOnly Peres21:05
timsamoffUntil I get an actual computer up and running, I may need email reminders. :(21:06
timsamoffOk. Carry on. I can suck on my own . :p21:06
GeneralAntillesSubscribe to the RSS feed for events and make sure dneary files them. . . .21:06
lcuk2so you can go "shit! missed another meeting?"21:06
Stskeepsyou have your tablet, it's all you need ;)21:06
Stskeepsnokia - raw power in your pants21:07
Stskeeps.. or something21:07
lcuk2its not raw, its refined21:07
timsamoffHa. With tthe ever helpful pim.21:07
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timsamoffLater, guys. Have a good one.21:08
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andre__GeneralAntilles, pong21:08
* lcuk2 hates timezones21:08
lcuk2why cant everyone be on the same time \@/21:08
GeneralAntillesandre__, OK, since I totally failed at cornering guenther about Garage tracking in bugzilla when he was here for about an hour, is there any way you can tell me what needs to be done to start community tracking, and what I need to do (and how to do it) to carry the administrative weight for you?21:10
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andre__GeneralAntilles, as far as i understand this requires some database changes. one needs to be able to set a user as a developer of a certain product (not trivial) and by that provide permissions to add target milestones, versions, and e.g. adding components21:12
Mouser810lcuk2, they can - just adopt internet time :)
GeneralAntillesnon-trivial . . . *sigh*21:13
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andre__let me ping him21:15
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RST38hIs now officially dead?21:16
RST38hIt shows some JavaScript error21:16
GeneralAntillesWorks fine here.21:16
X-FadeRST38h: There is a script error on the front page.21:17
GeneralAntillesBut "" is way too non-specific21:17
X-FadeRST38h: But we are working on that ;)21:17
RST38hGeneral: All of it, I checked21:17
RST38hmain page, downloads, planet, development21:17
RST38hX-Fade: Oh, the horror! The suffering!21:17
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X-FadeRST38h: What error do you see? Because I can't trigger it now?21:19
RST38hX-Fade: FireFox shows a dialog (with warning icon) full of some JS code21:19
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X-FadeRST38h: My FF3 doesn't do that at all?21:20
RST38hweird, seems to work now21:20
RST38hmay have been a glitch21:20
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, anybody else who cares:
GeneralAntillesGood times with bugs:
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles, looks good to me21:23
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* GeneralAntilles posts away.21:24
RST38h[in whining voice] Please have user/emulators category! =)21:25
qwerty12_N800Though thinking about it, you may want to add base64 should be ran outside of sbox (it's not in any repo except nokia system updates... anyone willing to send base64 to extras?)21:25
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* GeneralAntilles writes user/games or user/utilities on RST38h's forehead.21:25
RST38hthe select-location trick is actually useful21:25
RST38hGeneral <-- evil21:25
GeneralAntillesRST38h, you said 10% of the packages have to fit in a section for the section to be considered21:26
GeneralAntillesThat means you need to find about 24 emulators. :P21:26
GeneralAntillesand emulators which are clearly games (you know, the ones emulating game systems) don't count. :P21:26
RST38h10 or so I can easily find21:26
X-FadeHmm I am one day behind with Extras account request invitations. 6 people waiting. It seems we get more people on board.21:26
GeneralAntilles10 is closer to %4.21:26
RST38h24 is unlikely but then you can't fuill Location&Navigation based on the same principle21:27
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GeneralAntillesWould anybody else prefer justified paragraphs on
Stskeeps'lo moontiger21:28
moontigerhey :)21:28
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Stskeepshow's the call-back service going?21:28
moontigeri have a nokia n79 phone (just got it) and the web browser is easier to use than the one on my n81021:28
moontigerthe phonehome?21:28
mikkov_GeneralAntilles: I wouldn't write about base64 because it's not available in sdk or extras repo21:29
moontigeri have been working on the web interface a lot but havent checked any new code in yet ... been getting ready to move continents21:29
GeneralAntillesmikkov_, uuencode -m then?21:29
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RST38hAh, my poor little tablet died of staron!21:29
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moontigerStskeeps, im hoping to get some new stuff up this week but the server has been down lately too21:30
Stskeepsmoontiger: *nod* i've mainly been working on the maemo reconstructed proof of concept the last weeks, put deblet in a slightly lower gear as this has more potential21:30
mikkov_GeneralAntilles: uuencode is in sharutils utils package, don't know if it's installed by default in sdk21:31
moontigerStskeeps, sounds good ... anything to see yet?21:31
mikkov_sharutils package21:31
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Stskeepsmoontiger: , 123mb in flash storage21:32
moontigerim thinking to write a generic xml-rpc client that can talk to any service (with config) and upload / download any data you have access to21:32
moontigerStskeeps, looks good21:33
Stskeepsand this is with a sane base system :)21:33
moontigera completely free maemo yes?21:33
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Stskeepsatleast base is, hw support may be non-free21:33
moontigerdepeneding on vendors21:33
mikkov_GeneralAntilles: probably link to maemo policy would be good, because it's awful hard to find21:34
GeneralAntillesmikkov_, last paragraph21:34
Stskeepsyeah, in nokia's case we'd have firmware for wifi+bluetooth, BME and some various stuff probably21:34
Stskeepsand their differentation on top21:34
Mouser810Has anyone else had problems with their headphone jack?  My device acts like headphones are always connected which overrides bluetooth audio and internal speakers.21:34
Stskeepsmoontiger: if you're on jaiku you can follow our progress on #reconstructedPOC (warning, we run an experiment where we microdocument everything, achievements, problems, etc :P)21:36
moontigerim excited to get moved and settled in so i can get into some coding properly21:36
moontigeri'll get a jaiku account set up i think as i want to play with microblogging anyways21:36
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GeneralAntillesDon't forget Mauku21:37
Stskeeps*nod* if you want an invite just say21:37
moontigerbtw nokia n79 is an awesome phone21:37
Stskeepsand yes, mauku is excellent21:37
moontigerStskeeps, thnx will do21:37
moontigercould u send one?21:37
moontigerlauren at gagfoot dot com21:37
mikkov_GeneralAntilles: ok, din't read the whole article ;)21:38
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Stskeepsmoontiger: invited21:38
Meiz__n810Stskeeps: i have tried to install m-r with your latest installer now three times... something goes always wrong with debootstrap...21:40
StskeepsMeiz__n810: that's weird.. and md5sum is in place and all that stuff?21:40
Meiz__n810it fails at the end if extracting...21:41
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moontigerStskeeps, thnx21:41
Meiz__n810some problems with libc621:41
StskeepsMeiz__n810: that's odd really.. debootstrap.log?21:42
Meiz__n810s*it, just formatted21:43
Meiz__n810i will try to debootstrap manually21:43
jordan_devI'm trying to compile an app for the Nokia n810 using Scratchbox2. The app needs to use a kernel Mutex, but when I include mutex.h, I get "error: field 'wait_list' has incomplete type", and the same error for two other fields.21:43
Meiz__n810Stskeeps: i'll try one more time with installer21:45
Meiz__n810if it fails i will give you debootstrap.log21:45
jordan_devSo has anyone here successfully included mutex.h, and was there any funny business required to get it to compile?21:45
Stskeepsjordan_dev: and you're using maemo sdk+?21:47
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Stskeepswhy a kernel mutex and not pthread, though?21:49
jordan_devi have an event driven app, a bunch of the event handlers might access some piece of data at the same time, and i want to synchronize access21:50
jordan_devkernel mutex seems like the easiest, lowest overhead method of accomplishing this21:50
jordan_devand these events will be triggered 20-30 times per second, and so low overhead is important21:51
jordan_devthis is the first time I've worked on an app that uses any of the kernel headers though, so I'm thinking that I'm missing something simple and fundamental21:52
jordan_devin my rootstrap/usr/include/linux, the version.h file has 2.6.16, and I know that the Nokia is using 2.6.2121:53
Stskeepssure you're using the right rootstrap and not some bora one?21:54
jordan_devit's definitely a diablo rootstrap, although i'm not sure it's been updated since the latest OS2008 release21:55
jordan_devI still don't think that this is what's causing the problem though, because I've checked the mutex.h from 2.6.21, and the same line that's causing problems is in there21:55
Stskeepsmaybe mutex.h depends on some other .h? system headers arent always honest about their needs21:56
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jordan_devdo you know if there's a simple way to update the rootstrap?21:57
jordan_devor should I just make a new one21:57
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Stskeepsquestion is always if it's sane to make a new one or easy :P21:58
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jordan_devi created a new rootstrap and it gives the same kernel I'm thinking that the rootstrap doesn't contain the nokia n810 kernel sources (which makes sense)22:07
jordan_devbut the compiler should still work22:07
jordan_devI'll deal with the problem of running the app on the n810 later, but now I'd just like to get the thing to compile22:07
Stskeepsconsider using sb1 for now maybe?22:08
* lcuk2 has blank canvas syndrome22:10
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* Stskeeps passes lcuk2 some bacon22:11
jordan_devi've never really used it, but I'll try...22:11
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lcuk2i dont think bacon will help22:11
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lcuk2i even turned my nose up at some pork crackling today22:11
qwerty12_N800lcuk2, now just title that blank canvas "the north"  :p22:11
jordan_devhmmm, same error22:11
GAN800liqtris time!22:11
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lcuk2heh GAN800 i keep writing liqgame.c but get sidetracked and it turns into something else22:12
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lcuk2cos the ui works for xyz22:12
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* lcuk2 has qwertty on ignore so didnt see his comment22:12
lcuk2Stskeeps, you've seen the bubbles thing havent you - the windows app22:13
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* Stskeeps continues coding his cow collar.. 22:14
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lcuk2this one
Stskeepshehe, i'm scarred by the VB icon ;)22:18
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RST38hHell, people, has ANYONE tried tracking finger movements in GTK+ on Maemo?22:19
RST38hmotion-notify-event does not work.22:20
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RST38h!!!!!!!!!!!! Found it!22:21
RST38hIn MaemoPad+ source code: " gtk_widget_set_extension_events(result->drawingarea, GDK_EXTENSION_EVENTS_CURSOR); /* root of all evil */22:22
lcuk2from my python drawing thing which uses a gtk drawingarea22:22
Meiz__n810Stskeeps: it looks like debootstrap works now22:24
* GeneralAntilles dies of starvation22:25
* ds3 throws cookies at GeneralAntilles22:26
qwerty12_N800infobot, give GeneralAntilles cookies22:26
* infobot gives cookies to GeneralAntilles22:26
RST38hNope, this does not work either22:26
* GeneralAntilles catches them out of the air like a seal catching thrown fish.22:26
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RST38hlcuk: Can you remember how you deed motion tracking?22:32
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lcuk2RST38h, you had it then22:33
lcuk2i created the drawing area (this is python, but i assume the api is similar/same)22:33
lcuk2drawing_area.connect("motion_notify_event", motion_notify_event)22:33
lcuk2then connected ^22:33
lcuk2    drawing_area.set_extension_events(gtk.gdk.EXTENSION_EVENTS_CURSOR)22:33
lcuk2    drawing_area.set_events(  gtk.gdk.EXPOSURE_MASK| gtk.gdk.LEAVE_NOTIFY_MASK| gtk.gdk.BUTTON_PRESS_MASK| gtk.gdk.BUTTON_RELEASE_MASK| gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_MASK| gtk.gdk.POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK)22:34
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lcuk2hiya dave22:34
RST38hlcuk: Aha! thanks!22:35
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lcuk2RST38h,  it needs everything i think22:35
lcuk2you sound like you saw the problem but just missed a step out22:36
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RST38hYea, it works!22:36
StskeepsMeiz_n810: sounds good22:36
RST38hdoes not need some of these but the important thing is to set events BEFORE showing the widget22:36
lcuk2ahh (i didnt mean all the event masks - it obviously needed just the ones you were interested in22:37
lcuk2anyway, it worked \o/22:37
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RST38hworks beautifully - looks like johnx will get his wish after all22:41
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lcuk2RST38h, i thought the scaling was odd and not intuitive as well :P glad you managed it22:47
lcuk2god ive gotta get some code done tonight22:47
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lcuk2does anyone know how slow bluetooth is, ie is it practical to allow local file sync between pairs of n8x0s in reasonable time?22:55
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LinuxCodelcuk2, depends on chipset i believe22:57
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LinuxCodewhat are you syncing ?22:57
LinuxCodeand hi ;-}22:57
lcuk2hiya lc, im thinking user info and recent sketches of registered people22:57
lcuk2its a pain in the ass to pick up and draw on the wrong tablet22:58
lcuk2i wanna autosync22:58
Guysoft42hey, how do i tell gpe when the week starts? (its on sunday here,not monday)22:58
LinuxCodeGuysoft42, never looked22:58
LinuxCodei might be wrong but im sure there was an option22:58
lcuk2let each tablet build up its own media river, but then when it gets in range of its buddy it will sync22:59
LinuxCodemight have been in evolution22:59
LinuxCodelcuk2, ahhh hmm22:59
GeneralAntillesCall it 120KB/sec22:59
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lcuk2thanks gen, i gather that going like the clappers will drain battery more than most23:00
* lcuk2 might make the sync one way: downstream23:00
GeneralAntillesI've always wanted sync with FBReader23:00
lcuk2have everything end up on one big desktop machine (then out onto the wider internet)23:00
lcuk2heh GeneralAntilles :) book positions23:01
lcuk2i had that between desktop and my pda23:01
GeneralAntillesI have a bunch of different devices I read them on23:01
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GeneralAntillesso just being able to pick up any one of them and go would be great.23:01
lcuk2then threw it totally when i got the dead tree of the same book23:01
lcuk2that actually sounds quite nice gen :) similar to what im thinking23:02
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GeneralAntillesIt wouldn't be terribly hard to implement23:02
GeneralAntillesI was actually considering doing it myself there for a while23:02
lcuk2tick select folders/files23:02
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* Stskeeps would prefer a tablet being manifestation of taking my home along, o my work home23:02
GeneralAntillescloud stuff23:03
lcuk2cloud doesnt work though without internet23:03
lcuk2and internet is not yet everywhere23:03
GeneralAntillesUntil we have ubiquitous connectivity and very long battery life23:03
lcuk2saves on battery at least23:03
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: cloud or cloud.. i believe in personal clouds23:03
GeneralAntillesSync solutions are sorta halfway23:03
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GeneralAntilleslcuk2, libconic will probably help.23:04
lcuk2ewwwwwww Stskeeps, your personal cloud is green23:04
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* Stskeeps 's project once m-r works is to have a solution that probes his cellphone through AT commands which cell id it is in and reacts accordingily23:04
GeneralAntillesI'd really like to see a phonelink setup that actually works23:05
GeneralAntillescaller id popup23:05
GeneralAntillesChoose to answer the call through your tablet.23:05
GeneralAntillesSorta like Skype or BluePhoneElite on OS X.23:05
Stskeepsso it starts looking for my work WLAN when i get close to it, log on to the municipality wlan when im near it .. etc23:06
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GeneralAntillesDesktop applet that you can make calls, send and review texts and call logs with.23:06
lcuk2pssst gen, thats called a phone23:07
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GeneralAntillesWell, the idea is so you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket.23:07
lcuk2dont you have to to like answer it?23:08
GeneralAntillesTyping out a text on the tablet's keyboard is much easier than doing it on a phone keyboard.23:08
lcuk2that i agree with23:08
GeneralAntillesThe idea is to have the tablet act as a handsfree device.23:08
lcuk2though my phone fecked that up major style23:08
GeneralAntillesSo the phone routes calls through your tablet23:08
lcuk2it has a computer link thing where i can send texts whilst its connected via bt23:08
GeneralAntillesSay you're eating lunch at a coffee shop browsing the web on your tablet23:08
Stskeepsi don't mind the thought of a bluetooth dongle that is a gsm device really..23:09
lcuk2but the stupid dumb flocking thing sends a text then sits with a dialog box on the phones screen23:09
GeneralAntillescall comes in and pops up a banner with caller id and the option to pick up.23:09
lcuk2and wont do anything till i find the phone23:09
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, just buy a smartphone/580023:09
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, you should be able to authorize the tablet from your phone.23:09
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, why?23:09
GeneralAntillesI already have the tablet23:09
Guysoft42LinuxCode, do you have an idea? i see nothimg in the gui23:09
GeneralAntillesand the smartphone is still going to be in my pocket.23:09
LinuxCodeGuysoft42, Im a tad busy atm23:09
GeneralAntillesBesides, the 5800 is $60023:09
LinuxCodedid you try applet settings ?23:10
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GeneralAntilleslcuk2, anyway, the tablet interface is always going to be better than the phones interface23:11
Guysoft42LinuxCode, yes, nothing.. i gtg to learn too, if anyone knows how to change the week PM me :-)23:11
GeneralAntillesIt's like comparing the viewfinder on a pocket camera to a DSLR.23:11
RST38hGeneral: Have you actually seen Nokia's phone sample lineup?23:12
GeneralAntillesRST38h, you mean their current selection of phones?23:12
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: would you btw say that what the tablets are and the OS companion, is open platform, open device?23:12
Stskeepsopen as in you can mess it up quite a lot on your own23:13
GeneralAntillesI would, yes.23:13
GeneralAntillesEspecially considered in context.23:13
Stskeepscompared to android and iphone which are closed devices23:13
GeneralAntillesI mean, they're less open if you consider them in the desktop context.23:13
moontigerwhat 5800?23:14
GeneralAntillesBut as you're dealing with non-commodity hardware in a mobile context. . . .23:14
qwerty12_N800moontiger, nokia 5800. s60 touch screen phone23:14
moontigerahhhhhhhhh i have a n79 ... love it23:14
RST38hGeneral: No, somebody leaked their developer samples list23:14
GeneralAntillesRST38h, oh, right.23:14
GeneralAntillesYeah, saw that.23:14
GeneralAntillesDon't care.23:14
GeneralAntillesCellphones aren't my thing.23:14
t_s_o <- bah, i feared it...23:14
RST38hGeneral: there are 640x480 and 800x480 models23:14
RST38hGeneral: So, I wouldn't insist on smartphones never reaching tablets in the ui utility23:15
qwerty12_N800moontiger, is that the one with dvb?23:15
milhousei have an N85 - i find the email client on it is better than modest (and the email client on the N85 is very, very basic - but works)23:15
RST38hGeneral: [and that is also why I said that I would prefer Maemo to S60 on these devices]23:15
GeneralAntillesRST38h, a smartphone with a 4" screen is not a smartphone I will use.23:15
GeneralAntillesAnyway, those phones are way out of my price range.23:16
RST38hGeneral: Why? It isn't prohibitively large23:16
GeneralAntillesI prefer a simple, small, thin clamshell design.23:16
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RST38hYou would buy a $400 table but wouldn't buy a $400 phone? Hmm23:16
infobotRST38h meant: You would buy a $400 tablet but wouldn't buy a $400 phone? Hmm23:16
GeneralAntillesThat does 3 things: phonecalls, text and modem23:16
GeneralAntillesRST38h, do you really wonder why?23:17
GeneralAntillesI mean, _really_?23:17
GeneralAntillesThat seems really clear to me.23:17
RST38hYes because ideology aside, I would rather carry 1 device than 323:17
GeneralAntillesNot when that one device gets fucked by cellular carries.23:17
GeneralAntillesYou see what fun it causes for Android.23:17
GeneralAntillesThe same will happen for Maemo.23:18
RST38hGeneral: Yes, but you can bring your own device even to an american carrier23:18
GeneralAntillesI don't like the idea of carrying around a $600 phone all the time.23:18
moontigerqwerty12_N800, im not sure about dvb but it totally rocks as a smaretfone23:18
RST38hNo need to buy subsidized crap23:18
GeneralAntillesThere are situations where I don't want my tablet with me23:18
GeneralAntillesand I'd rather have a phone that I can afford to replace.23:18
RST38hok, this one is valid indeed23:18
GeneralAntillesWhat is a "fone"?23:18
glass_how about a sub 200$ smartphone then23:18
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: maemo would fall apart if it had to be a closed device, imho23:18
qwerty12_N800moontiger, :)23:18
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, yeah - you might drop your n800 whilst poledancing23:19
Stskeepsso many things are easier for developers cos of the open device strategy23:19
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moontigerqwerty12_N800, it geo tags piccies and has an awesome camera23:19
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moontigerso im updating my website to process gps exif tags on pics :)23:19
milhousestskeeps: maybe not in nokia-land23:19
Stskeepswe have one example of carrier tablets, don't we? the singtel ones?23:20
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, related to the applet bug:
milhousethanks - seems pertinent, i'll have a read.23:23
milhousei guess i'm not alone :)23:23
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, yeah, it is a bit insane.23:23
GeneralAntillesBut the change seems to be that we're actually getting WONTFIX responses23:24
GeneralAntillesrather than getting no response at all23:24
GeneralAntillesWhich means that the next step is them paying attention before the window of opportunity for getting bugs fixed closes.23:24
milhousewhen the Android "reboot" bug appeared and Google released a patch within a few days I did think how long it would have taken Nokia - 6 months to never?23:24
t_s_othe community would probably have rolled out some laternate initfs by then...23:24
milhouseOne outfit does it right, then there's Nokia ...23:25
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, the last critical crasher bug was the Modest one23:25
GeneralAntillesWhich they releases 30-2 specifically for23:25
GeneralAntillesit took about 1 month.23:25
milhouseWhat about the bug with Modest which causes it to hang every other day?23:25
andre__GeneralAntilles: Hey, you understood the definition of "FIXED"! :-P Just kidding, got too many rants today...23:25
milhouseNo fix yet, no sign of a fix, may never be fixed - renders Modest _useless_23:25
andre__milhouse, bug number?23:25
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, I'm fairly certain the fix is in week 40 or so23:25
GeneralAntillesSo should be out with the next SSU.23:26
milhousei'm sure it is, apparently we're waiting on other stuff - absolutely nuts. hang on andre, looking it up for ya...23:26
milhouseno good to me23:27
andre__modest 1.0-2008.38-1, and 38 is the week number23:27
milhousehow do i get that fix?23:27
milhousedo i need to be on a special invite list? ;)23:27
andre__a) wait b) compile from source23:27
andre__heh. i don't have that fix either23:27
milhousei'm a waiter - as are most of nokias customers23:27
Stskeepsoh -thats- what that part is23:27
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, lol?23:28
Stskeepsyeah, - i don't usually use weeks in my thinking23:28
Stskeepsi think in dates23:28
andre__company always think in weeks. they make me nervous :-P23:28
GeneralAntillesNeither did I23:28
GeneralAntillesUntil Maemo. ;)23:28
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milhousewhat would be nice if I could have some idea when a fix was coming... why are schedules so secret? daft really.23:29
milhouseand by coming i meant when the next ssu was scheduled23:29
GeneralAntillesFremantle's bringing alpha and beta releases for the SDK23:30
GeneralAntillesand likely beta releases for the OS, too.23:30
milhousei'll believe it when i see it23:30
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milhouse(sorry, been a passenger on the good ship Nokia for faaaar too long!)23:31
andre__milhouse, i sometimes think schedules are secret because some engineers fail in 80% of the schedules to keep the given deadlines ;-)23:31
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* Stskeeps ponders how many in here has been along since 770 got released23:32
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, catch up on the lists like I told you. :P23:32
* GeneralAntilles has.23:32
GeneralAntillesYou'll know the early 770 owners by the bile they spew. ;)23:32
milhouseandre: i am a project manager... deadlines slip, but you can still announce them and people will accept a degree of slip23:32
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andre__milhouse, yes, people. but it might be interesting info for competitors23:33
milhouseGAN: I know... busy times right now. just been away on a training course which gave me an oppurtunity to love/hate my n810 in a hotel room :)23:33
andre__i don't know, i also can just guess23:33
milhouseandre: really? competitors care when nokia will be fixing their product? :)23:33
andre__the project i maintain(ed) has fixed deadlines. we deliver the product since years on the day promised months ago. howevere the quality often differs ;-)23:34
milhouseandre: we're not talking about new functionality here, just fixing stuff that doesn't work23:34
* Stskeeps has a fonera router he takes along to hotels (flashed firmware ofcourse with dd-wrt), so he can hook up or amplifywifi nets :P23:34
Stskeepsafter a horrid experience in hong kong23:34
andre__milhouse, well, i won't defend nokia here, from my POV it sucks too, so i'll just agree with you :)23:35
andre__i just try to understand them sometimes. "try".23:35
milhouseoh btw, if i go into one on bugzilla, ranting and raving, please don't take it personally - i know you're in a shitty position23:35
milhousebut as an end user/paying customer/advocate of what-could-be it does annoy me what goes on...23:36
milhouseor rather, doesn't. :)23:36
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andre__milhouse, who are you in BZ? bugzilla770 at nmacleod? didn't know before :)23:37
GeneralAntillesNokia's secret plan in hiring andre__ was for him to take the heat so they don't have to. ;)23:37
* andre__ tries to manage dozens of nick to names to faces links but often fails23:37
andre__yeehah! :) cool, nice23:38
GeneralAntillesandre__, he was basically bugmaster before you came along.23:38
andre__yeah, he read and commented on a lot of bugs23:38
milhouseandre: i own my own domain so tend to use email addresses that alert me to anyone that gives my details away to spammers... :)23:38
andre__and i'm really thankful for that23:38
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milhousei was highly motivated back then - not so much now :(23:39
andre__naah, i normally don't take it personally. i've had about four other rants today too. you get used to it after all these years...23:39
andre__i can totally understand that. i also have a kind of love-hate relation with other projects i work(ed) on/with23:39
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andre__GeneralAntilles, i kind of agree23:40
milhouseMind you i had a Canuck telling me my post was apathetic and resigned drivel - shocked i was, SHOCKED! ;)23:40
andre__tension can be quite useful23:41
milhouseandre: at least it shows people care...23:41
* andre__ remembers the best and most offensive bug reports he read23:41
lcuk2especially around your underpants23:41
* lcuk2 once had saggy elastic23:41
andre__rrrr! more tea vicar!23:41
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lcuk2\o/ yesssssss i brought it to a standstill23:42
lcuk2sorry, carry on lol23:42
andre__GeneralAntilles, i think i had it twice that nokians send me an email, asking me to comment on behalf of them. but i don't think they were afraid of rants, more because their comments were not something that should be seen "official"23:43
andre__on the other hand, it was "only" two times so far23:43
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andre__moving slowly...23:43
GeneralAntillesThe corporate mentality has to change before we make any real progress.23:43
GeneralAntillesIf the managers and executives aren't behind the idea, there's no way the engineers will ever be. . . .23:44
andre__well, as i told you - it differs from division to division23:44
andre__some are used to work more openly, some need more time to understand the advantages23:44
lcuk2andre__, that same effect occurs with single developers as well23:45
* Stskeeps ponders what the next bug to push from m-r to bugs.maemo23:45
lcuk2so within a team you can have members who are happy to work from public svn and push every 2 minutes, and others who huddle and commit only when finished.  thats been the way forever23:46
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: worst/best part about m-r is so far, there hasn't been 100% showstoppers23:47
andre__lcuk2, yeah. but if you don't have "fresh" people in your team that have already worked in open source communities, but instead are only used to the closed way23:47
andre__lcuk2, as i said: when i had an error management meeting i asked the managers who had worked with OS communities before23:48
Stskeepsthere's been difficulties but not something where we had to give up on an avenue23:48
andre__it was less than 15%. most people came from the s60 series23:48
lcuk2yes, coming to maemo "green" from deep within nokia would be a culture shock i agree23:48
milhouseandre: I bet they were glad to get rid of them23:48
milhouseandre: Now the S60/Symbian guys are probably hiring open source developers like mad... :)23:49
andre__it was interesting to see how novell managed the "imported" open source culture this after they bought suse and ximian23:49
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milhouseIt will be interesting to see what, if anything, Nokia has learned from Maemo when it rolls out Symbian to the open source communities, and what Trolltech can bring to the party23:50
milhouseI don't hold out high hopes, unfortunately (God I'm getting too cynical in my old age... :( )23:51
lcuk2andre__, i work in a closed source shock, my current boss and colleagues is appalled at the idea that I have created and given away my code23:51
lcuk2are ^23:51
milhouseshock? is it permanent?23:52
andre__milhouse, as long as trolltech is a totally seperate entity it won't change culture. if you really have to integrate them, well...23:52
lcuk2for them yeah ;)23:52
milhouseandre: hopefully that can bring some knowledge/advice...23:52
milhouseinfiltrate the rest of Nokia23:53
milhouseideas, best practice etc.23:53
GeneralAntillesI was somewhat encouraged by Quim's comment on itT that the Maemo Community has made some waves in Nokia.23:53
lcuk2we need to make more than waves :)23:53
GeneralAntillesActually, andre__, that's an interesting question23:54
GeneralAntillesif the non-locking applets bothers so many people so intensely, why don't they just patch it?23:54
lcuk2so far i fear the size of waves are measured on a fart in the bathtub scale23:54
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lcuk2(very fragrant waves i might add)23:55
andre__GeneralAntilles, yupp - JFDI (if you have access to the code, patch it and share the patch, and let's try to get it officially included)23:55
milhouseGAN: If someone supplies a patch, would Nokia be willing to push it out in an SSU? It seems a bit "not invented here" to not accept the patch23:55
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, it depends on the product team.23:55
andre__GeneralAntilles, I think especially Maemo Summit has made some waves in Nokia23:56
GeneralAntillesI dunno for desktop.23:56
GeneralAntillesDefinitely 100% for h-a-m23:56
lcuk2+1 for the summit andre :)23:56
andre__as i said, desktop is already in a "only major and critical issues" state23:56
andre__i managed to get one non-critical fix in in the last weeks :-/23:56
GeneralAntillesWhich is really frustrating23:56
GeneralAntillesEspecially when there's trivial stuff with patches included.23:56
andre__well, desktop is the first thing they started with for Fremantle23:57
andre__(i think)23:57
milhouseQuite right too...23:57
andre__well - probably some architecture plans before that, but at least that was my impression,23:57
andre__or maybe the other teams just didn't tell me explicitly that they have in fact moved on too...23:57
GeneralAntillesIf desktop doesn't have enough people to process trivial bugs, then clearly Nokia needs to start hiring.23:57
milhousedon't be so sure about that... ;)23:57
* Stskeeps ponders why on earth libgpsbt went from being open source to closed source23:58
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, nokia came to their senses of course!23:58
GeneralAntillesIt'd be less bothersome if Fremantle were being released for OMAP2 hardware23:58
GeneralAntillesor if the bugs hadn't stagnated for freaking ever23:59
milhouseit is, isn't it?23:59
andre__nobody knows, not even i. i think nokia also doesn't know23:59
milhousei thought we were promised 2 more releases on N8x0?23:59
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GeneralAntillesmilhouse, don't get me started on the excuses that are going to pop up for that.23:59
milhouseup to elephanta (or somethingh until it was renamed)23:59
andre__milhouse, i think so23:59
GeneralAntillesDuring the Summit, the excuse was that Diablo was the second release.23:59
GeneralAntillesWhich is such a bogus excuse I'd've stabbed that Nokian in the eye if I were there.23:59

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