IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2008-10-30

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lardman|tvmelmoth: thanks, I googled and found that, looking now00:20
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lardmanI relented and bought the GTK+ book01:00
lardmansearching the interweb is painful01:00
lcuk:) dead tree01:00
lardmanwell, as long as I don;t burn it there's no CO2 lost ;)01:01
lcukreal books are so much better than the net, i remember poring through the amiga programming manual for months :)01:03
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lcukinformation being so free now is a blessing and a curse - it gets in the way of focus01:03
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GrackleWell written documentation is great.01:03
GrackleI recommend supermicro's manuals, they are refreshingly well written.01:04
lcukits is essential in my mind - but also a very difficult thing to do and an art form to master01:04
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lcukwriting good documentation is as alien to me as coding the dsp ;)01:04
lardmanI far prefer paper for reading, especially for reference01:04
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lardmananyway, GTK+ seems pretty nice, and easy too, just need some more readily available reference material to make it less frustrating01:07
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lcukhave we got it for this platform?01:08
lardmanit's called a book ;)01:08
lcuknot the book you plonker! i mean the library lol01:08
lardmanof course01:09
lcukis it greatly different to the gtk that ive seen? or have i been tinkering with gtk all this time?01:09
* lcuk doesnt know01:09
lardmanall the same01:09
lcukwith the same horrendous c interface ;)01:10
lardmanof course01:10
lcuki dont think ANY c interface is nice actually01:10
lcukim so embedded in vb's object.method(arg) syntax doing method(object,arg) feels wrong01:12
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lardmanthe SIBO C  used in the Psion 3 was quite nice01:17
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lcuklardman, nice set of libraries allowing decent device access?01:18
lardmanno, it implemented classes in C01:19
lardmanwas quite nifty01:19
lcukvala does similar ;) it compiles to c01:19
lcuklike the original cfront :)01:19
lcuk(c++ predecessor)01:19
lardmanyeah, this was unenforced by the compiler, just through coding structure01:19
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lcukheh, with a decent set of macros you could get close01:20
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lardmanyeah, I remember someone wrote some for OPL, called it OOPL01:21
lcuki tried it just before the summit - had reference counting and basic inheritence and constructors and destructors and instancing01:21
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lcuklardman, awww cant find anything on that (early models in any language stuff interest me greatly)01:24
lcukim goin for the night anyway, inspiration strikes..01:26
lcukgnite lardman01:27
lardmannight lcuk, If I find a link I'll post it01:27
lardmancheck the log tomorrow01:27
lcukk thx01:28
pupniksee if it flattened your neighbors dog?01:29
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lardmanlcuk: well here's OPL (or at least a quick intro):, here's OOPL:
lardmanI have the sibo SDK somewhere, but can't seem to find it atm (I found it on the interweb back in the old days)01:37
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lcukwould a basic like language work on this device - i mean real old style but working fast and well on the graphics screen01:39
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lardmansibo, cool:
lardmanwe have Python, that's pretty basic-like01:40
lcuki suppose its not the  language, but the ide that i mean01:41
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lardmanI'm not sure the IDE makes much difference really, unless it's something VB-like01:42
lcuksure it does - the closest we have to a designable ide at the moment is numpty physics - stop the program, make changes to the design, rerun01:43
lcukwe don't have that on maemo - development is so disjointed01:43
lcuki code on one machine, write debug statements compile code, execute and read the console rather than feeling the program01:44
lardmanwell Python on machine would work fine, and in fact there are already IDEs that do syntax highlighting iirc01:45
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lcukthe more i talk about this, the more i know im gonna write it ;)01:45
lcuklanguage is only one part - its the gui design, i keep eyeing up my menu key and wanting to press it to stop liqbase01:45
lcukand view the tiletree side on and manipulate it and stuff :)01:46
lcukanother press takes me to the code window01:46
lardmana VB-like app would be cool01:46
lcukand a third carries on running01:46
lcukok :) ill see how far i get ;) i already dev on device, so even if the gui designer had to recompile, i know what im up against01:47
lcukbut if i put in python bindings it will be simpler anyway01:47
lcukkot really doesnt like python ;)01:48
lardmanI still prefer dev'ing on a PC01:48
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lardmanthough for something like Python, I'm considering going on device01:48
lcukits the UI design aspect that appeals to me01:48
lardmanhmm, definitely do that off-device!01:48
lardmanthough I suppose there's no reason for that01:48
lcukim sick of sketching out what i want and then having to go code it - its a piece of piss to save as template and get the code for me01:49
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lcukin the released version of liqbase I allow any sketch to have an arbitary name, im allowing selection of named sketches and insertion into a sketch (stamp tool is for ANY sketch not just self..)01:51
lcukso i should just be able to write a code template and have it executed as required01:51
lcukill have a look this weekend at python binding01:51
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lardmanI'll have to see the finished thing I think, sorry brain is a bit busy with treeviews atm01:52
lcukit should automatically create me a typed tree of tiles - how to link that to code im not sure yet01:52
lcuksos mine ;)01:52
lcukanyway lardmna, gnite again lol :P01:53
lardmannight night :)01:53
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pupnik_using windows makes me feel like i'm riding a bike with a load of shit in my pants03:41
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pupnik  <- Windows "really good" edition - in your own browser...03:49
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pupniki want to send the music playing from my laptop or PC to my 770 connected to the home stereo, while also allowing the 770 to play locally06:17
* pupnik ponders what is best solution for that06:18
johnxdo you plan to remote control the 770?06:19
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pupnikjohnx: well.  right now i play stuff on the 770 by ssh-ing to it06:23
pupnikbut someone sends me a mp3 link on my laptop..  then i think well... i'd like to route that audio to the 77006:23
pupnikso i guess the level would be a network-able sound server akin to esd06:24
johnxrouting audio is difficult, but running an mpd server on the 770 and mounting a share on your desktop would be easier06:24
johnxbasically it's just the backend of a music player06:24
johnxthen there are a ton of "clients" that connect to it and tell it to play music06:25
johnxthe music has to be on an fs that the daemon can see though06:25
pupnikseems like a good approach for some things.06:26
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pupnikbut i'd prefer the more general "send my sound to computer 1, 3 and 5"06:27
johnxwell, the reason I suggested mpd was that it's a heck of a lot easier :)06:27
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johnxa remote esd server should do the trick I guess06:28
pupnikah esd does it06:29
johnxI wonder if the 770 has the bandwidth to handle it...06:29
pupnik44.1khz stereo needs 1.4 mb/s06:31
pupniki could also set up icecast mp3/ogg streaming on each source computer, then have a client on the homestereo770 listen permanently to each source computer's stream06:33
pupnikicecast+darkice... will stream anything going over your local soundcard06:34
johnxthat's an interesting idea06:34
johnxis that 1.4MB/s or 1.4Mb/s BTW?06:34
johnx<- lazy :)06:34
johnxah, that's not too bad then06:37
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pupnikyeah i'd prefer to avoid the mp3/ogg encoding if posisble.  so maybe only allow one network esd client to the 770 at a time06:39
johnxan esd server can have as many clients as you want as long as the bandwidth is there06:40
johnxit's just that all the sound will get mixed and sound horrific if two people play mp3s at the same time :D06:41
pupnikthe mpd and xmms2 solutions are good if all you want is to play from a collection though06:42
pupnikbut i'd also like to send the sound there, if i'm playing a movie from a laptop06:42
johnxa combination would work well too :)06:43
johnxno reason to go with just one06:43
pupnikalso true06:43
pupnikwould also be nice to have the 770 scroll the songtitle in a huge font06:43
johnxthere's a couple mpd clients that will do that I think06:44
johnxlike mpdosd or something06:44
pupnikty, this is good stuff06:45
johnxsure, I'm actually thinking of a use for my zaurus 5500 at the same time :)06:46
pupnikthen we can also hack this into a mpd/xmms2 client  "Querying a database using open source voice control software"
johnxon the mpc side you could do the whole thing in a shell script with the "mpc" client06:47
pupnikhooray for the console06:48
pupnikand pipes06:48
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pupnikstill love that 77007:06
* johnx still loves his zaurus 550007:07
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pupnikyeah i would to if i'd ever gotten one07:09
johnxI have too many linux gadgets though :/07:09
* pupnik too07:12
pupniki'm hoping to stumble over a thinkpad X40 lying on the street07:12
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johnxthey're nice little laptops07:13
johnxI was looking at used X32 thinkpads the other day07:13
pupnikthey have usb2.0?07:13
johnxit's centrino / pentium M so I think yes07:13
pupnikmy thinkpad A30 only has usb1.0 and that sucks07:14
johnxthat's a PIII, right?07:14
johnxP4 added usb2 if my memory serves07:14
pupnikyes.  i don't want a p4 laptop07:14
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johnxhah. no one does07:14
pupnikeither p3 or a real pentium M07:14
johnxthat's why I ended up with a P4 laptop for free :/07:14
johnxthe x series never had a P4 though, so you're in luck :)07:15
pupnikwould you take an x32 over x40?07:15
johnxdepends on price I suppose07:16
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johnxI'd take an x200 over both :)07:16
pupnikmmm... the keyboard + trackpoint is just ... physically addictive07:17
* pupnik pondering selling the acer aspire one for a small old thinkpad07:18
johnxHow much is an X40 around you?07:19
pupnikthe ebay sharks want 320-340 euro07:22
pupnikbout 400 usd07:22
johnxAn X32 goes for about the same locally, high $300s to low $400s07:23
pupnikbah, others wanting 430 euro for an x31 with 512MB07:24
johnxha! that's pretty steep07:25
pupnikbbl naptime07:25
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johnxmorning :D08:40
johnxworking on making proper deb packages for poky's matchbox desktop08:41
Stskeepshehe, okay08:41
johnxwell it looks nice and I find it usable in angstrom/poky08:42
johnxhow goes the maemo-gtk vs gtk fight on your side?08:43
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Stskeepsi wonder about nature of maemo gtk - should it be a drop in replacement for gtk, with certain optimizations that make also normal apps work a little more better on mobile ui, with some extensions to add in for mobile08:43
Stskeepsand then we file bugs on when it collides with normal wms/etc08:43
johnxhmm, well there's precedent for that. Angstrom's gtk has some mobile-specific changes, in the file chooser for example08:44
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johnxso just have "maemo-gtk provides gtk" ?08:47
Stskeepsso it's "not a bug" when normal maemo apps doesn't link into normal gtk, but it's a bug when normal gtk apps doesn't work on maemo gtk08:47
Stskeepssomething like that i guess08:48
melmothStskeeps: as far as i have underestood gtk app will work on maemo, hildon is just a layer of specific widget build on top of gtk08:48
johnxmelmoth, the problem is that maemo's version of gtk is actually different and somewhat incompatible with upstream gtk08:48
Stskeepsmelmoth: yeah, but i go a step further, maemo gtk without hildon/matchbox08:49
Stskeepstry a dialog box.. you'll see08:49
Stskeepsimpossible to get away08:49
Stskeeps / notification box08:49
Stskeepsjohnx: how was it again? i could use it as a drop in replacement but there were use case bugs08:50
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johnxI guess incompatible isn't exactly the right term...08:51
johnxI guess as long as maemo-gtk is a strict superset of gtk it's not as big of a problem08:52
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vincenzo88Hi !08:52
johnxhi vincenzo8808:53
Stskeepsjohnx: i guess maemo gtk has it's place in a mobile dist if it doesn't mess normal usage up08:54
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johnxagreed, as long as nokia is willing to take on the effort of essentially maintaining a "forked" gtk and continues to bring new upstream versions in as needed08:55
johnxI guess one can basically think of gtk as a generic library and maemo-gtk and vanilla-gtk are just providers of it08:55
vincenzo88someone program with Qt on Nokia N800/810 ? (i don't know GTK :()08:55
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johnxyou can use qt on the n8x0. there's some info here:
Stskeepsjohnx: that's one step on the way atleast if we can convince nokia of this :P08:57
johnxI haven't tried it though08:57
vincenzo88Thanks johnx i have see this link but i don't know if it's reliable08:59
johnxNokia will provide more and more support for Qt in the future. They own the company that makes Qt :)09:00
vincenzo88Good :D09:00
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: I wonder if a wiki-based discussion from community side "How would you like Maemo 5 to be like, as a developer" could be, where we try from scratch to envision a system from kernel level to hildon09:09
Stskeepsfor nokia to take inspiration from09:09
johnxStskeeps, might be a little late for maemo 509:09
Stskeepsjohnx: i'm not so sure honestly09:09
Stskeepssomething in their statements tell me they're not as far as they would like09:10
johnxwell if they'll really have an SDK preview out in november/december that means a lot of the interesting stuff must be set in stone09:10
Stskeepsthey released a package diff already, and it's just a normal debian + maemo gtk + hildon sdk09:11
Stskeepscan be distro-independent09:11
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Stskeepsjohnx: , bottom09:27
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Stskeepsjust to poke them a bit.. let's see if it's possible to move them in a similar direction as deblet would provide09:28
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johnxstirring up the beehive?09:28
GeneralAntillesYes, quite, Stskeeps.09:31
GeneralAntillesA wiki page outlining all of the blockers09:32
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Stskeepsjohnx: well it's about last chance for maemo if they want to, there's a lot of tendancies around :P09:37
GeneralAntillesA list of specifics will help a lot.09:38
Stskeepswell i have some ideas in my head :P09:38
Stskeeps <- kinda struck a chord with me (unrelated, but related to the thing about maemo mattering as a not-only-nokia-platform)09:39
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Stskeepsjohnx: i think the best hint that a community is actually open is ability to stirr the beehive.09:43
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RST38hsts: most chinese "clones" ar absolute shit09:53
RST38hnot real clones, too, just vaguely looking like the real thing09:54
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StskeepsRST38h: probably, but it's an interesting thing anyway10:06
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* qwerty12 should write a book on how to ensure you'll need a reflash. I ran cd /usr/llib/ ; strip * for jokes and it wouldn't boot :D10:11
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GeneralAntillesAlright, as h-a-m is turning into the pilot program for the open development process, I think it would behoove use to get behind it as much as possible.10:24
RST38hSts: my guess is that it will compete with WinMobile and cause Microsoft to make previous WinMobile versions free10:24
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I agree, let's see if we can make this work.10:24
RST38hYes, gentlemen, but will community changes be ACCEPTED by Nokia?10:25
RST38hAny qord from Quim?10:25
GeneralAntillesRST38h, see -developers10:25
t_s_ohey GeneralAntilles, tried entering about: into the tablet browser? i think i see where the microb confusion comes from...10:25
RST38hsee it10:25
GeneralAntillest_s_o, my suspicion is that the branding is going to change in Fremantle10:26
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GeneralAntillesProbably the biggest reason the MicroB branding applies to only the engine now is because the UI is closed10:26
StsN800RST38h, i guess nokia may take things from community into 'stable'.. like on other distros10:26
GeneralAntillesand lumping in closed shit with MicroB's good name dirties the brand.10:27
t_s_owould not surprise me, fremantle is starting to look like a "lets burn old bridges" update10:27
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t_s_oand at the same time confuses the hell out of everything...10:27
RST38hGeneral: The funniest thing is, the current "microb ui" is really really thin wrapper around browserd10:27
GeneralAntillesSince the browser UI in Fremantle is going open, there's no reason not to include it in the branding10:27
RST38hWhy the hell make it closed is beyond me10:27
GeneralAntillesand strong arguments for it.10:27
t_s_ohmm, if its going open, anyone attempting a backport?10:28
StsN800RST38h, the user should be easily able to change to 'unstable' i guess10:28
RST38hOn the other hand, Jaaksi is right: open source only makes sense when there are people willing to work on it10:28
t_s_oRST38h: i smell a "differenziation" reason...10:28
GeneralAntillesWell: Opera (all closed) -> MicroB (open engine) -> MicroB (open everything)10:28
RST38hCall it MicroC! =)10:28
RST38hOr MilliB, if you wish10:29
DasajevMicroC++ could be the next one :)10:29
RST38hPlan9 name has bad stigma10:29
StsN800RST38h, i know this from popular oss.. its hard to get dedicated developers10:29
RST38hnever really took off while being a very good project10:29
RST38hSts: Mozilla, for example, is mostly developer by paid people10:30
X-FadeRST38h: Sure, linux kernel too.10:30
RST38hdeveloped (shit, I am bad at typing lately :()10:30
X-FadeRST38h: But in the end it _is_ an open project.10:30
GeneralAntillesRST38h, it's that damn muscle memory. ;)10:30
johnxopen source != non-commercial10:31
StsN800RST38h, and ive grown to realize corporate backing is a good thing, means more incentive and developer time10:31
RST38hSo, maybe a combination of Nokia-paid people and hobbyists10:31
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, about git in Garage, at the very least, how difficult would it be to have git projects hosted on Garage, a link to a project's git repository on the project page and maybe a switch in settings enable git/svn?10:32
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Tekojo is looking into that, so it might be good to ask him.10:32
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StsN800RST38h, and companies interested in improving maemo for their on-maemo projects' sake10:33
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: There currently is no open git-scm plugin for gforge, so that needs to be developed.10:33
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, OK.10:33
GeneralAntillesI don't think we need to worry much about integration is the short term10:33
GeneralAntillesbut just providing the option would be good.10:33
X-FadeYeah, we could create repos manually.10:34
GeneralAntillesI doubt there's more than a dozen projects that would really be interested in it.10:34
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RST38hsts: no commercial maemo projects so far10:35
GeneralAntillesNot true10:35
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GeneralAntillesRhapsody, Skype, "Map"10:36
johnxgizmo? boingo?10:36
GeneralAntillesPossibly Gizmo10:36
GeneralAntillesand that note taking app10:36
qwerty12Maybe Garnet too10:36
StsN800RST38h, my work does sortof, but its research10:36
RST38hFring and Gizmo are free gateways to some universla service10:36
StsN800with eventual commercial intent10:36
johnxthey are projects by companies developed to increase revenue10:36
johnxhow is that not commercial?10:37
RST38hSts: what work?10:37
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cityLightshi all10:37
RST38hGarnet does not sell yet10:37
StsN800RST38h, pervasive healthcare10:37
johnxhello cityLights10:37
RST38hjohnx: companies can live without them10:37
cityLightsI need some help10:37
RST38hSts: ah10:37
GeneralAntillesStsN800 is making a robot doctor out of Beagle Boards.10:37
johnxRST38h, you're changing you definitions mid-discussion :)10:38
StsN800bbl switching bus10:38
cityLightsafter I defined an email , my N800 started downloading all msgs, thus my root file system got full10:38
RST38hjohnx: Ok, by commercial I mean something whose owner's business depends on10:38
RST38hjohnx: You can't say that not having Gizmo on tablets will do anything to its owner10:38
cityLightsnow when I click the "programs" I get a gray menu10:39
GeneralAntillesBizarre definition10:39
RST38hjust another nice-to-have client10:39
cityLightsjohnx , any idea how to fix it?10:39
RST38hGeneral: Maybe nieeds to be clarified but I hope you see the meaning10:39
GeneralAntillesOne Wal-Mart location certainly isn't vital to Wal-Mart's success, so you mean to say it isn't commercial?10:39
RST38hit is more like "one walmart location in the middle of nowhere"10:40
johnxcityLights, are you using IMAP or POP3?10:40
cityLightsI think that the file in-charge of the programs on my device got messed up, which file is it?10:40
cityLightsjohnx, I fixed the problem with the email10:41
cityLightsand I made space in my root file system10:41
cityLightsI use diablo and boot of the SD10:41
johnxah, ok, the menu is generated out of .desktop files in /usr/share/applications/hildon10:41
johnxalso it might need to be regenerated ... somehow10:42
cityLightshow may I recover it?10:42
johnxGeneralAntilles, did you ever manage to fix your menu or did you end up reflashing10:42
cityLightsalso, what files are backed up when using the provided backup program? is it just /home?10:42
GeneralAntillesjohnx, yerga fixed it for me somehow10:42
GeneralAntillesThough I lost all my menu positions.10:42
johnxcityLights, yes, and some of your settings, such as repositories in /etc/10:43
qwerty12yergaGeneralAntilles, cp /etc/xdg/menus/ /home/user/.osso/menus/ ?10:43
johnxRST38h, so by commercial you mean "a commercial product important enough to make or break a company"?10:43
GeneralAntillesSomething like that10:43
cityLightsmay I ONLY copy the /bin /usr and so on except /home from the flash to my SD to fix it?10:43
GeneralAntillescityLights, that's a really bad way to do it.10:44
johnxand it also won't fix anything10:44
GeneralAntillesReduces battery life and makes things a lot more fragile.10:44
cityLightsok, so how should I fix .desktop file and get all my programs back?10:45
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johnxcityLights, qwerty12 gave you the fix. read his message10:45
cityLightsoh , now I got it10:45
cityLightsmin, let me see10:45
johnxthere are sooo many other channels that need a qwerty1210:46
GeneralAntillesjohnx, time to code up a qwerty12 bot?10:47
qwerty12hehe :)10:47
cityLightsnow for a totaly different question, how can I save a site certificate?10:47
qwerty12Well, someone's coded qwerty12.exe :P10:47
cityLightsI mean , when I connect to the uni wifi, I am redirected to and there to https10:48
JaffaMorning, all10:48
cityLightsthere I put my login and password and after that I can surf10:48
cityLightsevery time I am notifed that the certificate is missing and I click continue10:48
X-FadeGeneralAntilles, Jaffa: It might be a good idea to create a concrete plan for introducing the new top-level categories.10:49
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, yeah, I was waiting on confirmation of the proposed list. ;)10:49
X-FadeCurrent wiki page talks about sub-cats in the same block, but I really think that is step 2 or later ;)10:49
X-FadeWell, shall I blog about the list we have now and ask for last feedback?10:50
X-FadeI will mail Eero too, to ask what steps are needed for Packaging Policy change ;)10:51
herwoodGood morning10:52
herwoodany guys around who have used osso-addressbook library?10:53
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, updated11:00
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, after having slept on it, I can sort of see the point of Personal & Social.11:00
GeneralAntillesBut I'm wondering if the i18n could be better.11:01
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Ok, looks better ;)11:02
johnxYeah, that's the one problem I have with it too. In English at least it needs a whole sentence to properly describe11:02
X-FadeI'd rather go with one word i18n names. But that is pretty tough ;)11:04
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GeneralAntillesYeah, as would I.11:05
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I can see its point for contact management, but the example applications are too disparate for it to make sense. If we have "Personal & Social", it makes sense for the sports tracker type thing suggests it's too wide ranging.11:06
JaffaAnd I really think calendars fit into it a whole lot worse than they do into "Office". And, similarly, IRC clients, email clients etc. *should* be in "Network"11:06
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GeneralAntillesCheck the # app in "Books"11:06
JaffaThe NIH syndrome of "well, it doesn't matter what other people do - even if they're better funded, more usable and have had proper studies and cash thrown at them" is a bit bogglesome11:07
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GeneralAntillesI guess at worst we'll see what happens with the current list and modify it in a few months if need be.11:09
johnxI can live with that I guess11:09
johnxit would be nice if we didn't change it except when people were being forced to repackage anyways (new binary architecture, new API, changed pcakge names, etc)11:10
johnxactually, if we get debtags at some point this becomes largely irrelevant11:11
JaffaNo-ones actually suggested *how* debtags will solve any of the problems, have they?11:13
GeneralAntillesJaffa, magic bullets are magic.11:13
X-FadeJaffa: Marius did.11:13
X-FadeYou can add multple tags to decribe a package. So it will show up in multiple 'categories'.11:14
JaffaWhere? What tags are defined, for example? How on earth would the UI work?11:14
X-FadeMarius to use debtags _as_ categories it seems.11:14
X-FadeSo not abusing the section part but using debtags to replace that.11:15
GeneralAntillesAre debtags being used anywhere interesting currently?11:15
X-FadeSo functionality would be the same.11:15
JaffaX-Fade: So you can have less precise categories and the same app show up in wherever the app author wants, to cater for all cases? Seems like it'd encourage lazier categorisation to me; and you still have the issue of which tags to define ;-)11:15
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X-FadeI still think about debtags as a good way to _describe_ a package.11:16
johnxbut it solves the problem of apps that exist across categories11:16
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GeneralAntillesWhat happens when Boingo puts its application in all categories? :P11:16
johnxGeneralAntilles, file a bug :D11:16
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: We would ban it in AM ? :)11:16
Jaffajohnx: No, it's a cop out for when you can't define the categories properly.11:16
johnxJaffa, fine. where do you put a network-enabled dictionary? What about an educational game?11:17
JaffaFor example, a library doesn't buy 10 copies of a book and put it in different parts of the library so you can find it.11:17
GeneralAntillesOr somebody figures "my solitaire game uses the network for high scores, so it should go in networking"11:17
GeneralAntillesDictionary goes in Utilities11:17
GeneralAntillesEducational game goes in education.11:17
GeneralAntillesNext set of hard-to-file packages? :P11:18
GeneralAntillesJaffa, yeah, but a bookstore does. ;)11:18
JaffaAn application has one primary purpose. What GeneralAntilles said for your examples.11:18
GeneralAntillesThough, admittedly, that's mostly sales tables and endcaps. ;)11:18
JaffaA solitaire game using the network is still a game.11:18
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johnxGeneralAntilles, ok, so *you* know why they go there. but the point is to give the user as many ways to get to what they want as possible11:18
Jaffajohnx: So let's not have categories at all!11:19
* GeneralAntilles so totally would go for filing bugs in multiple categories, though.11:19
GeneralAntillesUnfortunately you can't have a single object exist in multiple places. :(11:19
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, wait, that's where we are now. :P11:19
JaffaGeneralAntilles: oh, yes :-)11:20
johnxJaffa, let's throw away alphabetical sorting too :P11:20
johnxfor a nice example of a debtags interface, give this a shot:
GeneralAntillesGood lord11:20
X-Fadejohnx: Try to find firefox there ;)11:21
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GeneralAntillesWhich has "TODO arcade games-gl meta special:not-applicable"11:21
johnxalso a browse by category and browse by debtag would be nice :)11:21
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johnxX-Fade, hence "mutliple ways to search." if you know "I'm looking for firefox" why don't you type "firefox" into the search bar?11:22
JaffaX-Fade: Yay! I found it: network > client > web > browser > firefox.11:22
GeneralAntillesActually, searching isn't a bad way to reduce the reliance on categories11:22
X-Fadejohnx: Sure, but it goes to show that finding things this ways isn't easy either. No casual browsing here.11:23
GeneralAntillesOK, what about this, we have a search button in the toolbar, but it sucks UI-wise11:23
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Combined with at 'What's new' view.11:23
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: And Popular applications.11:23
GeneralAntillesWhat about taking a page out of MicroB's book and using the search button to toggle a search bar?11:23
GeneralAntillesThat would act as a filter.11:23
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, yeah, I really want to see Downloads integration happen.11:24
johnxthough this is quickly turning into design by committee11:24
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: That still doesn't solve: What cool applications are there for me to install.11:24
JaffaGeneralAntilles: that's exactly what a searhc button is supposed to do in Maemo!11:24
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Search only works if you look for a specific app.11:24
GeneralAntillesTagging is really more useful when combined with search rather than browsing.11:25
* GeneralAntilles wonders about Tracker integration.11:25
JaffaAnd I get the feeling mvo's not got the time to put into developing a UI, so a complex UI which is wildly different from anything current will require more work by the community11:26
* X-Fade would like to talk to the Nokia GUI guys too.11:27
X-FadeGet them on board and discuss options.11:27
GeneralAntillesQuim seems to be working on that.11:27
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GeneralAntillesI wonder what the Tracker interface will end up looking like in Fremantle11:29
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I guess more things will become clear in December.11:30
GeneralAntillesdebtags could actually be a good way to power Tracker-based searches11:30
GeneralAntillesType in "browser" and Minefield, Fennec, MicroB, Tear and Epiphany pop up.11:30
GeneralAntillesI guess stuff like emelfm2, too.11:30
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm hoping the unified direction will be from Nokia.11:32
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, we're just playing around with different ideas, they can pick up and integrate the good ones.11:32
Stskeepsyeah, why the whole categories thing, when you can browse around in a tag cloud? :P11:35
JaffaYes, if there was a single tracker interface that could be interesting11:35
Stskeepsand search in it too11:35
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GeneralAntillesBrowsing in tag clouds sucks.11:47
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johnxand there you have it! the definitive answer from GeneralAntilles. :P11:48
Stskeepscurious tablet im sitting here with.. it's not touch-screen but pen-touch screen11:49
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, like the Wacom tablets?11:49
johnxsounds right. a lot of tablets are still that way11:49
GeneralAntillesjohnx, well, look at the debtag web interface you linked. . . .11:49
johnxI did. It's very beta admittedly11:49
GeneralAntillesIt's godawful11:50
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: never actually tried a wacom tablet, but it's a xp machine where it's only touchable with the pen from the system11:50
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johnxthis would be a lot easier to do with a smaller amount of apps and better tags11:50
GeneralAntillesThat said, those sort of tags would be QUITE useful combined with a search bar11:50
GeneralAntillesAnybody got any cool mockups for the main view I could look at?11:50
johnxStskeeps, yup, active digitizer. it's the same tech as the wacom tablets11:51
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johnxdoes apple hold patents on Next-style column-based file manager? is that why no one uses it?11:52
* GeneralAntilles is picturing a main view with a global search box and buttons for "New", "Popular" and maybe "Stars"11:52
GeneralAntillesOr "Best rated"11:52
johnxhow about four buttons then: new, popular, stars and browse11:52
GeneralAntillesWhat about updates and installed applications?11:53
johnxI don't mind the current top-level screen11:55
GeneralAntillesYeah, but we need to add more buttons for more features11:55
X-FadeAnd make it look less ugly ;) Although that might be fixed by the theme etc.11:56
GeneralAntillesSeems to me like the $TABLET_NAME and "Web catalog" labels are somewhat superfluous.11:57
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Especially since it says Nokia N800 on my N810, because I always forwarded my backups ;)11:57
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qwerty12w00t, going at world record breaking speeds again...12:01
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sampo_it sure is12:02
sampo_usually it is working fast and website is laggign12:03
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GeneralAntillesActually, hrm.12:05
GeneralAntillesOther than the "refresh repositories" button, is there any reason to have the toolbar on the main view?12:05
qwerty12That's a good point actually, it could be removed. mvo makes the repository refresh button on the main view both disabled in red pill & blue pill12:06
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melmothlardman: did you get the treeview tutorial url ?12:35
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lardmanmelmoth: yes thanks, nice tutorial12:38
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lardmanmelmoth: I've "ported" a later version of metromap, is very pretty and seems to work ok12:39
lardmannot sure where the timing data comes from though12:39
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lardmanfind bar is nice12:42
lardmandoes the second one differ from the standard?12:42
lardmanI'd also like to see extra columns for popularity, etc. in there12:42
lardmanand age too12:42
lardmanah, it has descriptions does it, does normal ham do that?12:43
X-Fadelardman: Age?12:43
lardmanhow old the app is12:43
lardmanwhen it was submitted12:43
X-Fadelardman: from first release or that version?12:43
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lardmanthat version12:43
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lardmannot very important, just that we know "What's New" on the previous page12:44
GeneralAntilleslardman, the find is normally a dialog12:44
GeneralAntillesand the search kinda sucks12:44
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: yep, the bar is nicer12:44
X-Fadelardman: That is not known from the repository. Although we detect it in 'fresh' on /downloads/12:44
lardmanX-Fade: ok, no worries12:44
GeneralAntillesThis search I'd like to see tied to Tracker and debtags.12:45
X-Fadelardman: Well, if we are going to fetch meta-data then it can be added of course ;)12:45
lardmanMight be worth sticking a star by "Fresh" applications though, to highlight them?12:45
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, can you ponder a bit on what sort of hooks would be good for Downloads integration?12:45
lardmanX-Fade: yeah, but do you know the age of everything, or just the latest X new apps12:45
GeneralAntillesand how we want h-a-m to communicate with maemo.org12:45
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I guess just an xml feed orso?12:45
GeneralAntillesYeah, that's kinda what I was thinking.12:45
GeneralAntillesI imagine mvo will have an opinion, too.12:46
X-FadeThat should not be a problem.12:46
X-FadeWe can fetch that from and cache it in the repo when a package gets uploaded.12:46
GeneralAntillesIn all honesty, I'd really like to see an appstore approach12:46
GeneralAntillesWith the Application Manager being the preferred portal to sotfware over the web interface.12:47
lardmanGeneralAntilles: if you search from the front page, what does it look at? Installed, not-yet-installed, upgrades? All?12:47
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: How about commenting an application?12:47
lardmanyes, seeing comments would be good too12:47
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, I wonder if we could add a "application page" like the appstore has12:48
GeneralAntillesNot entirely unlike the info dialog we have now, but a real page12:48
lardmannot html ;)12:48
GeneralAntillesNo, of course not. ;)12:48
GeneralAntillesCommenting could be done through that after you add your credentials to h-a-m12:49
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Sure, all data is available. It is just a matter of displaying and interfacing?12:49
GeneralAntilleslardman, by default, I'd say all installable applications should be searched.12:50
GeneralAntilles(from the front page)12:50
GeneralAntilless/front page/main view?12:50
GeneralAntilless/?/\// :P12:50
lardmanGeneralAntilles: I'd say all should be searched, and separated in the listview12:50
GeneralAntillesTree view, maybe?12:51
X-FadeHmm Mauku just arrived in extras-devel ;)12:51
lardmanyeah, or just a dividing line12:51
GeneralAntilles> Installed applications (4)12:51
GeneralAntilles> Installable applications (12)12:51
GeneralAntillesv Updates (1)12:51
lardmanGeneralAntilles: numbers would be nice appearing on the keys in the main view12:52
GeneralAntillesPersonally, though, I'd never really be interested in searching updates.12:52
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GeneralAntillesWhat's new (22)12:52
X-FadeI think that update should just show up like ssu.12:52
lardmanGeneralAntilles: no, but if you have a search option without specifying the target, you ought to search everything12:52
X-FadeNew applications are more interesting.12:53
GeneralAntilleslardman, I'm thinking the search should act like a filter if you're in one of the package views.12:53
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lardmanyes, if you're in one of the package views then just search that12:53
cityLightshi, thanks , issue is solved :-)12:53
GeneralAntillesSo, if you search for "browser" when viewing the "Network" category, it would only filter that list.12:53
GeneralAntillesThat's something that really irritates me about the Finder12:54
cityLightsany idea how to mark a url safe for HTTPS even when cert is not good?12:54
GeneralAntillesThey have a search bar on each window, but it does a global search instead of a search of the window's contents.12:54
lardmanCan we add an extra column so we can multi-select12:55
GeneralAntillesN810 owners, can you use the keyboard to jump to an item in application menus?12:55
GeneralAntilleslardman, of checkboxes?12:56
GeneralAntillesSomebody should file an enhancement request about that.12:56
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: yes, something like that, but the user shouldn't need to check them themselves12:56
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lardmanhard with your thumb, unless it's very pointy12:57
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GeneralAntillesHow would they be checked, then?12:57
cityLightsI get this messege: This site has sent an untrusted certificate * certificate is not signed by a trusted authority12:57
lardmantap another button which says mark for installation?12:57
cityLights click continue and can put in my uni password12:57
GeneralAntillesShould be discussed12:57
GeneralAntillesat the very least, you should be able to select like the file mananger12:58
cityLightsforgot that12:58
GeneralAntillesand maybe there should be an "install all" button for search results.12:58
cityLightsnow: where is it updated?12:58
cityLightswhich file?12:58
lardmanwell if the listview were updated differently it might not matter too much, though it is annoying having to wait between selections to install another app12:58
GeneralAntillesYeah. :\12:58
lardmanGeneralAntilles: no, not an install all12:59
GeneralAntillesqwerty12's current build seems to render a bit faster.12:59
GeneralAntilleslardman, so, instead, you'd have to mark each item for installation?12:59
lardmanthe list shouldn;t be destroyed, it should just have rows removed12:59
GeneralAntillesI'd say that's not an unreasonable thing to put on the toolbar in a search result12:59
lardmanvery unlikely you'd want that from a search though13:00
GeneralAntillesFair enough13:00
lardmanif I search for "patience", I'd chose one not all of them to install13:00
cityLightsok, bye for no13:00
lardmanGeneralAntilles: when you highlight an app name, could add a button to the row "Mark for Installation", then use the "Install" button on the bottom to install all13:01
lardmansomething like that13:02
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ciroanyone know why shuold be a problem to use the logo inside a theme?13:06
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GeneralAntillesIt wouldn't be.13:06
GeneralAntillesJust as long as you remember not to chop off the .org13:06
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lardman~lart copy&paste in FF313:07
* infobot squeezes copy&paste in FF3 till copy&paste in FF3 turns blue like papa smurf13:07
cirooh, ok, just because I received a strange  quim gil message about13:07
GeneralAntillesciro, what theme, exactly?13:08
cironothing serious: I just want be sure to not piss anyone off :)13:09
GeneralAntillesWhat did Quim say, anyway?13:09
X-Fadeciro: Gilquim 0.68 ? :)13:09
GeneralAntillesThat could explain it.13:10
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ciroX: well, I dont want make the things too serious13:10
ciroGeneralAntilles: yes, I understand the 'problem' about the old version13:11
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GeneralAntillesI mean, I would be a little bothered if you used my name for a theme.13:11
cirobut : If you *really* need to use that logo (and you should consider this first)13:11
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ciroyes, GeneralAntilles: I know that, but I created that released after the message13:12
GeneralAntillesAh, I see the issue.13:13
GeneralAntillesDon't use an old logo. ;)13:13
GeneralAntillesThe logo in the Gilquim version is perfect.13:13
cirowell, I dont like subtle messages :) and that 'if you really' without any further expalantion turned me a bit off13:13
GeneralAntillesI wouldn't take it to heart.13:14
cirosi GeneralAntilles: sorry if I didnt explain the all situation before13:14
lardmanI just watched an AppStore demo, scarely easy to (pay for and) install an app13:15
GeneralAntillesThe guys who bought "I am Rich" would probably agree with you.13:15
qwerty12They should have bought a maemo and installed i-am-free13:16
lardmanreally though, two clicks and you've paid; wouldn't want any children to play games on the thing and accidentally spend all your money13:16
qwerty12I can't understand though, why would you store your credit card details anyway?13:17
GeneralAntillesWell, you can turn off one-click.13:17
lardmanqwerty12: you have to13:17
lardmanGeneralAntilles: ah, ok13:17
johnxah, the need for people to be protected from themselves :)13:17
cirolardman: apple made a great job to teach to the iphoners to be customers13:17
qwerty12Ok, that's good :)13:17
lardmanjohnx: well not myself, some other bugger who might start randomly tapping13:18
lardmanspeaking of CC, I must go pay mine, bbiab13:18
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qwerty12~curse ebook people who put unix books as pdf13:45
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, ebook people who put unix books as pdf !13:46
melmothwhat's the problem with pdf ebook ?13:46
qwerty12I made a mistake, pdf ebooks are good :). chm ones are bad :)13:47
lardmanGeneralAntilles: may I add some stuff to your page?
melmothGRumble...i think i have a memory leak, that only occurs on the tablet (i have no cam nor do i know how to emulate the "device change state" events, wich seems to be related to the leak i experience)....13:49
melmothno valgrind for arm, no way to reproduce it on is a bitch.13:50
GeneralAntilleslardman, sure.13:51
lardmanI'll stick some bits in in italic, take a look at them and see if they're in the right places13:51
GeneralAntillesI can just do a diff13:52
GeneralAntillesI don't think Quim's goal for November 10th really works.13:52
X-FadeI think it does. As a first plan at least?13:53
lardmanwell at least it will get people to put ideas together, everyone needs a deadline13:53
Stskeepswhat's the nov 10 deadline? meeting or? :P13:53
X-FadeI can dream up more work in 5 minutes than can be done in 10 years ;)13:53
GeneralAntillesI mean, I can put a bunch of things I'd like to see on, but without an idea of what the UI paradigms for Fremantle will be, they may not be very useful.13:53
GeneralAntilless/on/on that page/13:54
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: I mean, I can put a bunch of things I'd like to see on that page, but without an idea of what the UI paradigms for Fremantle will be, they may not be very useful.13:54
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I think no matter what the ui will look like, we can still sketch our ideas?13:54
GeneralAntilleslardman, do you want to move that page to Task:Improving_the_Application_Manager?13:55
lardmanyeah, sounds like a plan13:56
lardmanI've just added a couple of notes, take a look13:56
qwerty12melmoth: "device change state events"?13:59
melmothyep, you know, when the screen is blanked, or when it goes to shutdown14:02
qwerty12ah :/14:02
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melmothi have this daemon wich takes picture regularly, and save gps info in a linked list, and send all of that to a remote xmlrpc server when available.14:03
GeneralAntillesReplied to Quim.14:04
melmothThe program meomry usage seems constant (after the first gstreamer pipe has been created), except some times...the vzs appearing in top increase..14:04
melmothlikz 24 bits.. It only happens "sometimes" that s the problem14:04
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GeneralAntilleslardman, re: the scrollbars, that's part of the issue with not knowing the Fremantle UI paradigms.14:04
GeneralAntillesThey may not even have scrollbars14:04
melmothhmm, may be, 24 bytes, or whatever it is that is used to measure vsz14:04
RST38hmelmoth: Hint: don't use linked list, use dynamic array14:06
lardmanGeneralAntilles: yes, but if we put down ideas, hopefully some Nokians, when they take a look, will say what can/can't/is already done14:07
melmothi think the list is ok (i can emulate its usage on scracbox, valgrind did not mention anything..well, anything i saw :-) )14:07
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melmothPlus it s a glib GSSList, it there to be used.14:07
RST38hmelmoth: it does not have to leak, just have to grow large14:07
RST38hmelmoth: but, do you ever use file open dialog in that program of yours?14:08
melmothno, its a daemon.14:08
melmothno graphical output at all. only some debug in a text file14:08
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I have mailed the Packaging Policy guys to ask them if they want to help us to get the categories updated in the policy.14:09
RST38hmelmoth: give me a moment14:10
lardman, General, do you want to create a page for that?14:11
* GeneralAntilles could care less about PIM.14:12
GeneralAntillesI nominate somebody who cares. :P14:12
RST38hmelmoth: try cat /proc/<prorcesid>/status14:12
GeneralAntillesI'll clear it up for you after it's done, though.14:12
RST38hmelmoth: see if it reports anything useful14:13
RST38hmelmoth: people say you can also track detailed memory usage with valgrind14:14
lardmanGeneralAntilles: could you create a page for those who care please14:14
melmothyep, but valgrind does not work on arm :-(14:15
GeneralAntilleslardman, why me?14:15
lardmandon't worry, I've worked out how to create one now14:15
GeneralAntillesToo easy, right? ;)14:16
* lardman doesn't deal with docs anymore14:16
lardmanspeaking of which, can I put up an html page somehow, I don't really fancy moving my DSP HowTo into the wiki, sounds painful14:16
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GeneralAntillesWell, most HTML elements work14:17
GeneralAntillesLink to the howto?14:17
lardmanGeneralAntilles: yeah, I thought it would be better onsite14:18
lardmanis this suitable?
melmothRST38h: i will try to find me a webcam, and see if i  can use it in scratchbox (wich happen to be a xen vm..i may need some time to make this work :) ). Then i will need to 'emulate' the screen blanking event if i cannot reproduce it as it is14:18
lardmanGeneralAntilles: I'll have to have a go and see what mess I can produce14:18
GeneralAntilleslardman, seems fine14:18
GeneralAntillescan always be moved later14:18
GeneralAntillesMaybe Task:Personal_Information_Manager_for_Maemo14:19
GeneralAntillesor in Maemo14:19
lcukdoes the app manager parse apt-cache's output to build its list, or is there an internal binary format somewhere?14:19
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lardmanhmm, hence why I shouldn't be creating pages ;)14:19
lcukgo go web designer lardman!14:19
RST38hRead: and replace "Aigo" with "Nokia"14:20
GeneralAntilleslardman, well, that's why I didn't want to create it, either.14:20
RST38hmelmoth: Why? Can't you use valgrind on the device?14:20
RST38hUsing anything in the scratchbox is unreliable14:20
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* lcuk wishes he could finish a thought, bbl14:22
melmothvalgrind does not support arm14:24
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GeneralAntillesThat's awesome14:40
GeneralAntillesSystem clock issues on the server for the Windows flasher caused the issue.14:41
aquatixRST38h: i've heard from various people that if the Nokia MID's have a decent default PIM, they would buy it14:44
mgedminother say the same thing about GSM14:45
johnxGeneralAntilles, it's been happening for the last couple DST changes though, right?14:45
GeneralAntillesDon't remember14:48
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johnxI was poking at similar threads on ITT with very interesting dates14:49
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RST38haquatix: It does not mean those people will actually buy it15:01
RST38haquatix: My experience shows that "If would buy if..." people never buy.15:02
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lcukRST38h, agreed, my boss tells me tales of similar thingsfrom wayback when, runninghome to add features to his app based on "i would buy it if.." only to be told the next day ummm maybe not.15:23
lcukpeople are fickle15:23
lcukif something appeals there and then they will buy15:24
glassfeeling matters a lot15:24
glassif it's in 'might buy it if..' it's just reasoning around the feeling of not buying15:24
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GAN800Specific cases aside, PIM will geberally increase sales.15:30
infobotGAN800 meant: Specific cases aside, PIM will generally increase sales.15:31
johnxis their a counter group like the cell phone one? "I won't buy it if it has PIM"?15:32
GeneralAntillesNot the same sort of issue.15:32
GeneralAntillesCellular shit has lots of baggage15:32
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GeneralAntillesPIM doesn't involve government regulation15:32
johnxI know. I was on your side with that, remember? :P15:32
glasspeople who counter with "i wont buy it because it does x too" will buy it anyways(cameraphones as prime example)15:32
GeneralAntillesI'd prefer not to have a camera on my phone, honestly.15:33
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GeneralAntillesBut as not having one really doesn't decrease size or cost these days. . . .15:33
GeneralAntillesBut it's a weak example, since you pretty much can't buy a decent phone without a camera anymore.15:33
RST38hlcuk: Basically, it makes sense to primarily listen to people who already bought your app15:34
glasse50 was offered without camera15:34
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lcukthe only crowd who want reduced features are the older generation who prefer simple to the point functionality, and gnome users who ummm just are15:34
RST38hlcuk: The rest may have their say of course, but not much of importance15:34
GeneralAntillesglass, OK, you have _one_ decent phone without a camera. ;)15:34
glassGeneralAntilles: it wasnt very popular model15:34
RST38he61 was offered without a camera as well15:35
lcukGeneralAntilles, theres actually a proper phone with simple clear easy readable screen and i believe no camera15:35
glasse61i added camera15:35
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lcukand no its not just an old style one15:35
glassit was needed15:35
lcukRST38h, agree 100%15:35
glassmost buyers want it..15:35
* RST38h would prefer A2DP support15:35
glassif they've given the choise and they cost the same15:35
lcukno camera models are required in certain industries15:35
glasslcuk: disabling is easier usually then.. like in military15:36
glasslcuk: and it's pretty much watered down nowadays15:36
glasslcuk: that argument was used a lot when cameraphones were coming15:36
lcukno, how does a guard know if its disabled or not - many places simply say "no camera phones"15:36
glasslcuk: but you hear it seldom nowadays.. only from military guys15:36
glasslcuk: they wouldn't know a smugled camera either15:37
glasslcuk: knifing the lens/thing is what some people have done15:37
lcukno, but if you have rules and they are broken you can be disciplined15:37
glassyes, at which point it's checked if it can shoot pics or not15:38
* GeneralAntilles disciplines lcuk for breaking the "no lcuk" rule.15:38
glassbut point being, everyone has a cameraphone by default know15:38
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glassthe really cheap end phone models have intentionally limited features now15:39
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glasslike limiting phonebook to say 300 or so.. as if it didn't have more memory and running an arm cpu like the rest15:39
johnxI bet the n800 would get past most "no camera" checkpoints :)15:40
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glasshigh end secrity places should limit things like usb modems and computers anyways15:41
lcukjohnx :D thats because its got a custom snow generation device15:42
lcukGeneralAntilles, grrrrr15:42
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johnxStskeeps, have you tried compiling the fremantle gtk+ and hildon yet?15:46
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* GeneralAntilles stabs johnkzin15:57
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nemoGeneralAntilles: hey.15:58
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GeneralAntillesHey, nemo, the bookmarklet works nicely.16:00
GeneralAntillesThanks! :D16:00
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cowbellemooHi all.  I'm awaiting a n810's arrival in the holidays and was wondering...I know it can mount a samba share over wifi, but what is the video thoroughput like?  Do standard ntsc-resolution videos stream fine from a samba server?16:13
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johnxit's not the streaming, it's the on-device playback that's the problem16:15
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||cwI thought th 810 could handle 720x480....16:16
mgedminat 5 seconds per frame, maybe16:17
cowbellemooOkay.  I heard the chipset wasn't the best it could be because of a license dispute (or something)16:17
cowbellemooAre videos watchable?16:17
mgedminif you transcode them to a lower resolution/framerate16:17
mgedmingoogle for tablet-encode16:18
cowbellemoohow low?  :(16:18
johnx400x240 is optimal, up to 640x272 can be ok16:18
||cwI know hte 770 can't handle it, but I thought the 800 and 810 where much better16:18
johnxit's not a license dispute, it's a design flaw in the bus to the LCD16:18
mgedminsome videos look rather good (e.g. the one that nokia ships with the device)16:18
johnxthe license dispute is over drivers for the 3D chipset16:18
johnx||cw, LCD bus bandwidth limitations on the n8x0 hardware16:19
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cowbellemooOh.  Heh.16:19
cowbellemooThat's not too bad a detail/performance hit16:20
johnxit actually makes the video smaller for storing on an SD card *and* it still looks really impressive16:21
johnx400x240 on a ~4" screen is still a higher DPI than fullscreen video on the monitor you're looking at right now16:21
cowbellemooYeah.  I could deal with the video on the old ipod video, so 400x240 is probably a step up16:21
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johnxI've had good results with some at 640x272 but that's close to the limit I think16:22
cowbellemooThanks, by the way.  :)16:22
AStormjohnx, x320 is ok16:22
johnxyou might want to look at some custom streaming server to run on your PC16:22
AStorm640x320, for example16:22
johnxcowbellemoo, do you run linux, mac or windows?16:22
johnxAStorm, good to know :D16:23
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AStormI checked with movies16:23
AStormeven 662x332was ok16:23
cowbellemooI've got a ubuntu server sharing all my media, so some sort of on-demand transcoding would be a nice weekend project16:23
AStormfor 30 FPS16:23
AStormthat was of course with omapfb, so YMMV with default X calls16:24
yacoobuncrowded wifi should give ~2MBps of bandwidth, question is whether tablet is able to handle that :)16:24
johnxcowbellemoo, "knots" and "mediaserv" would be good to look at :)16:25
AStormyacoob, almost16:26
AStormI managed 10 Mbps16:26
AStormwhich is about 1.3MB/s16:26
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cowbellemooI've made it to the mediaserv page, but 'knots' is impossible to google16:29
cowbellemoomaybe it's on sourceforge?16:29
AStormtry "knots media server" or sth?16:29
johnxadd "maemo" to any search you're doing for the nokia tablets :)16:30
AStormwe need Xv to be as fast as omapfb16:31
X-FadeMy google doesn't need that anymore ;) It knows too much about me, it seems...16:31
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AStormX-Fade, hahna16:31
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AStormuse scroogle.org16:31
AStormfor an unbiased/less biased view16:31
cowbellemooI see it now.  Thought that knots was another server package.16:32
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johnxit's both16:33
cowbellemooOh, or both client/server.16:33
cowbellemoowell, thanks again16:33
johnxsure :)16:33
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camel_liuI try 'sudo apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy= update' in Xterm, and it asks for password? What is it?16:35
AStormcamel_liu, because it wants root?16:35
AStormso it asks for root pass16:35
AStormcheck /etc/sudoers16:35
AStormor just root16:36
AStormhave to install it first16:36
camel_liulet me try16:36
camel_liuhave to install waht?16:36
camel_liuNeither rootsh nor root :(16:37
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camel_liuAStorm, both rootsh and root are not right. What do I have to install first?16:39
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johnxcamel_liu, is this in scratchbox or on the n8x0?16:39
AStormpackage is called rootsh16:39
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AStormuhm, in sbox he could just edit sudoers file16:40
infobotfrom memory, rootsh is an easy way to get root and it's found here:
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camel_liuI'm trying, thanks16:43
AStormGeneralAntilles, shouldn't it be in extras?16:46
camel_liuI installed rootsh.;-)16:47
GeneralAntillesit is. . . .16:47
camel_liuTo run apt-get, I have to run 'sudo gainroot && rootsh apt-get update' ?16:48
woglindeif sudo gainroot works you do not need rootsh16:48
GeneralAntilleswoglinde, it's not about "works"16:49
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AStormalso, edit sudoers file if you like sudo so much16:49
GeneralAntillesrootsh gives you user's shell's history. anyway.16:49
woglindeother history then busybox ash history?16:50
camel_liuwho to edit sudoers file?16:50
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AStormcamel_liu, e.g. vim /etc/sudoers16:50
AStormuhm, vi not vim16:51
johnxcamel_liu, you're using scratchbox, correct?16:51
GeneralAntillesAStorm, visudo16:51
camel_liudoes busybox have nano?16:51
AStormyou might want some other editor, like nano (in extras afaik)16:51
GeneralAntillesThat wont let you reboot-loop your system.16:51
AStormGeneralAntilles, it sucks :P16:51
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timelesswhat happened?16:52
timelesswhy is microb now being managed in the open?16:53
X-Fadetimeless: Because it needs to ;)16:53
GeneralAntillestimeless, hehe, sorry, want some background on that? ;)16:53
timelessum, yes?16:53
timelessnot a very nice \"welcome back from your summer vacation"16:53
GeneralAntillesDon't worry, it's nothing urgent.16:54
GeneralAntillesRead this thread:
timelessis there a bug on the application manager thing?16:54
GeneralAntillesand welcome back. :)16:54
timelessbecause as it stands...16:54
timelesswhile i'm asking stupid questions16:54
timelesswhere does a web browser fit in ?16:54
X-Fadetimeless: That discussion grew quite a bit.16:55
GeneralAntillestimeless, network.16:55
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camel_liusudoers file is blank. Add what? What is the straight way to run apt-get in Xterm?16:55
timelessdo you really expect humans to look for them there?16:55
AStormcamel_liu, /etc/sudoers? shouldn't be16:56
woglindeI use r&d mode and sudo gainroot16:56
GeneralAntillesThe i18n is probably going to be "Internet & Network"16:56
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timelesssorry, i'm a human, i would not look for a browser or a mail client in netowkrking16:56
johnxcamel_liu, just install rootsh, let me get you a link, wait a second.16:56
mgedminGeneralAntilles: has anyone looked into's categories?16:56
camel_liui installed it16:56
GeneralAntillesmgedmin, that's what those are based on.16:56
AStormcamel_liu, read sudo documentation16:56
camel_liujohnx, what's next?16:56
johnxcamel_liu, type "root"16:57
mgedminah, for some reason I thought fd.o had an "Internet" category rather than Networking16:57
AStormGeneralAntilles, Internet is separate there16:57
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woglindere lardman16:57
AStormit does16:57
camel_liuAStorm, where's sudo documentation?16:57
AStormseparate Internet and separate Networking16:57
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GeneralAntillesAStorm, how do you figure?
AStormcamel_liu, in the netwok16:58
* melmoth thinks sudoers is the worst man page ever16:58
mgedmincamel_liu: e.g.
* timeless wonders how to correctly ask if FOO-app is in $PATH16:58
johnxwhich FOO-app16:59
AStormGeneralAntilles, oh, so KDE fails to conform16:59
mgedmincamel_liu: sudoers is a critical system file; if you get it wrong, your tablet may not boot16:59
mgedminare you *sure* you want to edit it?16:59
AStormmgedmin, not anymore16:59
GeneralAntillesJust, fyi, guys, sudser is in Extras.16:59
GeneralAntillesand does exactly what you're trying to do without having to mess around with sudoers16:59
johnxcamel_liu, don't edit sudoers, You installed rootsh so that's good enough. Just type "root" then use apt-get normally16:59
AStormcamel_liu, ah, you failed to become root before editing17:00
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AStormyes, install rootsh and be happy17:00
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camel_liujohnx, I do as you said. And it is working. :) Thanks.17:01
johnxcamel_liu, sounds good :)17:01
GeneralAntillestimeless, it adds user to sudoers17:01
camel_liuYes. I always account '302 Found' in my home. So I have to do that.17:02
johnxcamel_liu, have you gotten the 302 error again today?17:02
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camel_liuAlways, maybe every-times.17:03
camel_liuBoth my scratchbox and my N800.17:04
johnxcamel_liu, could you add a comment to this bug?
camel_liuI have to use http proxy.17:04
camel_liuok. I'll try.17:04
lcukpenguinbait, you called?17:04
johnxcamel_liu, thanks. hopefully nokia will be able to get this fixed.17:05
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lcukdamn penguinbait pm me if you need me - ill pick up when i can17:06
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penguinbaitlcuk, ?17:09
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: What was that Nokia provided package again that used user/system?17:20
camel_liujohnx, How can I submit my comment? Do I need a new account?17:21
X-FadeAh yeah, duh ;)17:21
johnxcamel_liu, yes. you need to make an account. if you have problems I can submit a comment for you17:21
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: It seems that regarding the policy, Marius is our man too ;)17:25
GeneralAntillesAh, good to know.17:25
X-FadeI asked the guys that gave me the policy when it was not public yet. And they pointed to Marius.17:26
X-FadeSo I guess that gives us an opportunity to discuss it on the list.17:26
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GeneralAntillesitT sure loves to moan about not having PIM17:29
GeneralAntillesBut when given the opportunity to be proactive about it they also seem to love to moan about that, too.17:30
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derfBitching on the internet?! That's unpossuble.17:30
johnxGeneralAntilles, advice on barn painting vs painting a barn :)17:31
AStormGeneralAntilles, because sbox is crud17:31
AStormhorrible thing17:31
GeneralAntillesjohnx, this is like being empowered to tell Nokia exactly what color they want them to paint three barns though.17:31
GeneralAntillesAStorm, sbox? What?17:31
GeneralAntillesI mean, all they gotta do is say what they want in PIM17:32
johnxI don't think they know :/17:32
GeneralAntillesAStorm, yeah, I know what sbox is, but I fail to see what it has to do with itT and PIM. :P17:32
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, aaaah, now we get to the heart of it. ;)17:32
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camel_liujohnx, I submited one.17:33
AStormI will write a smart PIM later17:33
AStorm(as in, predictive)17:33
johnxcamel_liu, thank you. :)17:33
camel_liuIt's my pleasure.17:33
GeneralAntillesSomebody should code up a Newton assistant clone.17:34
GeneralAntillesThat thing was the best.17:34
johnxmost people never had a chance to get their hands on a newton17:34
lcukmm olivia17:34
johnxor a psion for that matter17:35
GeneralAntillesLittle text box you could bring up from anywhere that let you type in things like "Set an alarm for tomorrow at 7 AM for a conference call"17:35
GeneralAntilles"Schedule an appointment with James C next Tuesday at 2 PM"17:35
lcuki like that kind of idea :) anything that allows instant input17:35
johnxactually it's too bad that the same kinds of people who designed such clever UIs for old proprietary OSes aren't still designing something nice and small for mobile Linux...17:36
lcukengage warp drive17:36
lardmanjohnx: is there a step-by-step with screen shots or a video of it in action?17:36
lardmanjohnx: the Newton that is; I think mine is too old17:36
johnxGeneralAntilles, google calendar will cope with that kind of appointment entry well too17:36
GeneralAntilles10 years later17:36
johnxlardman, actually, all I've seen are screenshots and descriptions17:37
lardmanoh right, GeneralAntilles?17:37
GeneralAntilleslardman, I'd lend you one of my 2100s if you were in the States.17:37
johnxheh, well I can't think of one other thing besides gcal that *does* cope with that even today17:37
GeneralAntillesor if a group of you in the UK want to put together a pool to cover the cost of shipping.17:37
lardmanlol, I might be over in Florida in March17:38
GeneralAntillesWhere to?17:38
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lardmansome conference somewhere, I'll look at a map17:38
GeneralAntillesLikely Orlando or Miami17:38
lardmanyeah Orlando, Disney World17:39
GeneralAntillesOrlando sucks so much17:39
johnxa conference with mickey mouse?17:39
GeneralAntillesIt's basically theme parks + hell17:39
lardmannah, I just remember thinking Disney World when I saw the location :)17:39
GeneralAntillesRight in the middle of the state, so it's fscking hot all the time.17:39
johnxhey! disney world was awesome when I was like ... 717:39
lardmannot that the smile is for Disney World, I've no intention of ever going17:39
lardmangood call17:40
GeneralAntillesThe other parks besides Magic Kingdom aren't terrible.17:40
lardmanI'd still like Psion Agenda (and the database for that matter()17:41
johnxjeez. no wonder no one themes for maemo :/17:42
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GeneralAntilles'course, despite such an awesome UI, the obvious reason the Newton wasn't very popular is because it cost $1200 in _1996_.17:42
aquatixyou can buy an apple for that!17:42
aquatixoh wait17:42
GeneralAntilles2 these days, aquatix.17:43
* aquatix has a psion 5mx somewhere17:43
GeneralAntillesMac Minis17:43
* johnx just revived his zaurus 5500 today17:43
aquatixor 1.5 macbook with student discount17:44
aquatixcalculating to current dollars17:44
aquatixjohnx: ooh :)17:44
GeneralAntillesI wish the Mac Mini hadn't jumped up in price so much.17:44
johnxwonder if they'll refresh it or kill it...17:44
camel_liujohnx, in one of my N800, it is always unable to download things. It says application package not found.17:44
aquatixjohnx: the latter i think17:44
camel_liuBut the other one can.17:44
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johnxcamel_liu, in application manager, make sure you have the same repositories enabled on both17:47
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camel_liuI cannot download rootsh for that one, and then cannot update list, so cannot download others. Loop!17:51
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johnxyou can install rootsh from a file:
johnxcopy that to an sd card and open it with "file manager"17:53
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cyrus__I have a couple of questions regarding the kernel source available from First, the file kernel-source-diablo_2.6.21.orig.tar.gz. Is that the original 2.6.21 kernel with the OMAP patches applied?17:54
cyrus__And if that is true, then is the file kernel-source-diablo_2.6.21-200835maemo1.diff.gz just the patch to get that kernel to run on the n810?17:54
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Stskeepsjohnx: yeah18:02
johnxany luck?18:02
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RST38hmoo, johnx18:04
RST38hGeneral: you can buy mac mini like PC easily18:04
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RST38hand it will be less trouble to mess with18:05
GeneralAntillesThat's not the point.18:05
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GeneralAntillesMy grandmother can't set up a hackintosh without my help.18:05
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lardmancyrus__: anyone's guess, you'll have to look at the patch and the tarball and see what the changelog says18:10
RST38hBut why does she need a Mac? =)18:14
qwerty12Time to reformat my linux partition :)18:16
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Veggen_GA: But she can't set up windows either, and windows is high-maintenance when run by non-experts.18:17
GeneralAntillesVeggen_, your point?18:17
GeneralAntillesWindows isn't involved in this discussion anywhere.18:17
GeneralAntillesI'm talking about my grandmother buying a Mac Mini to run OS X.18:18
Veggen_Oh, I'm just barging in without bothering  to read the dialogue before. Nothing new here ;)18:18
GeneralAntillesNot a generic PC to run OS X18:18
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GeneralAntillesNot a generic PC to run Windows.18:18
Veggen_GA: ok :)18:18
GeneralAntillesRST38h, because it's what she knows.18:18
GeneralAntillesFrom work.18:18
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lardman I added a section for people to list what's missing in the current PIM apps18:19
lardmanhmm, does this work for anyone?
X-Fadelardman: No, it is not enabled atm.18:21
qwerty12Timing out here18:21
qwerty12The site that is18:21
lardmanX-Fade: the documentation's not available?18:22
lardmanX-Fade: or the site's just down?18:22
X-Fadelardman: That is a midgard plugin on the website. But it is not enabled.18:22
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lcukGeneralAntilles, i never knew your gran was a graphic designer18:27
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johnxlcuk, at my old job (small company) everyone had a Mac on their desk because it took less time and effort to deal with than a PC running windows or linux18:29
penguinbaitlcuk :)18:29
penguinbaitboth nice bacon accessories :)18:30
lcukoh  the joys of bacon18:32
lardmanmeetings would be difficult ;)18:32
penguinbaitor how about (bacon panties, earrings and vodka)18:32
penguinbaitlcuk, I'm not sure you are as commited as these folks :)18:33
lcukmy god its full of stars (with bacon)18:34
GeneralAntilleslcuk, :rolleyes:18:34
lcukbbsoon you bastards made me hungry again18:34
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johnxRST38h, what, the bacon enthusiasts?18:40
lardmando you lot get people phoning you and asking you to confirm your personal details?18:41
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lardmanand then being shocked when I ask them to tell me them first as I don't know who the hell they are :)18:42
qwerty12I get fucking wankers trying to sell stuff over the phone18:42
johnxI don't get phone scams/spams. I get spam on my phone's email address though :/18:42
penguinbaitdon't you have to down a few pints before using the term "fucking wankers"18:43
lardmanpenguinbait: he's 16, probably been drinking since noon18:43
penguinbaitI thought that was some sort of law18:43
lardmanthe other thing that annoys me if forum users talking about "wetting their pants" (or worse) after exciting news18:43
lardmanI'm feeling old and crotchety today ;)18:44
johnxnah, it's strange to me too18:44
penguinbaitOMG, thats awesome, I just got a little wet18:44
RST38hjohnx: yep18:44
yacoobgrandpa lardman! did you have forks, to eat your dinosaurs with?18:44
RST38hqwerty: That is why mighty USofA has the Do Not Call List18:45
johnxbut 10 years of using unix/linux adds hundreds of points to one's crotchety meter18:45
lardmanit was blue-green algae back in my day!18:45
RST38hqwerty: george WWW bush only contribution to the public good18:45
RST38hjohnx: you also get a beard and a belly18:45
lcukqwerty has one of those already heh18:45
johnxI guess it's not working right :/18:45
RST38hUSENIX crowd should be fun to watch18:45
qwerty12lcuk, Well, I have the stubble but no belly :D18:46
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penguinbaitqwerty, give it 20 years18:49
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penguinbaitit'll come :)18:49
lardmandrinking from noon helps too18:49
* qwerty12 can't wait18:50
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solcahi folks!18:52
solcai'm building my own kernel18:52
Stskeepsjohnx: no issue whatsoever, the maemo gtk debs i gave out only had the problem of not providing gtk-2.0.0-bin or something18:52
solcabut it seems it can't boot from MMC18:52
Stskeepsi used them as drop in replacements18:52
solcait just boot from NAND18:52
Stskeepsjohnx: but there were collisions with non-hildon vms18:52
solcaany ideas?18:52
johnxStskeeps, so no API break? interesting18:52
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, it went fine but interactions were fucky in LXDE18:53
qwerty12solca, the nokia kernel doesn't boot from mmc by default either. Install bootmenu or use the linux flasher to change your boot device18:53
johnxwell, I'm slowly dragging towards an alternate desktop based on matchbox18:53
solcaI already do that when I installed Deblet, but I changed the cmdline parameter in the kernel to boot from MMC directly18:54
solcabut it doesn't work18:54
solcathis is my kernel parameter: root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 ro rootdelay=518:55
johnxoh, swell!18:55
Stskeepssolca: kernel parameter change doesnt work afaik ..18:56
Stskeepsfrom flasher18:56
Stskeepsunless you hardwire the cmdline parameter18:56
solcaStskeeps: I changed in the kernel config18:56
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Stskeepssure it doesnt get overriden? :P18:57
Stskeepsjohnx: it may cause problems cos of some silly package debian builds but maemo gtk doesn't18:57
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solcaStskeeps: can I change the kernel cmdline from the flasher?18:58
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Stskeepssolca: think so but im not sure it works or not :P18:58
solcaI'm currently doing ./flasher -f -k zImage -R18:58
Stskeepsbut why not use a bootmenu?18:59
Stskeepswith my linuxrc bootmenu it is less like using a condom (nokias weird tricks..)19:00
solcabecause I screew it up, I build this new kernel based on and I changed the initfs /lib/modules/current to point to the new kernel19:00
solcaStskeeps: any other way I could restore that symlink to the original19:01
Stskeepsalways possible to reflash certain parts19:01
solcathe last option is to reflash the initfs19:01
Stskeepsso you're going to experiment iwth the stlc45xx kerne ltoo?19:04
Stskeepsdamn, i can really feel i'm completely busted after a long day :P19:05
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solcaStskeeps: well I was booting the Android stuff19:06
solcabut I'm interested in the stlc45xx module too19:06
RST38hbtw, any chance to run latest android inside chroot? =)19:06
solcaI already have the mac80211 in this new kernel19:06
RST38has an application of sorts?19:06
solcaRST38h: well I'm not interested in running Android along with maemo19:08
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solcaI prefer to boot android as-is19:09
RST38hbut is there a way to do it?19:09
RST38h'cause Android by itself is of not much practical use - it is a java machine19:09
johnxif it can be booted, you *should* be able to chroot, and set things up with a script, then run the runtime19:10
johnxit'll take over the fb though19:10
Stskeepsi wonder how android+nit-env-base deblet could work19:11
woglindehm I wonder google didnt use the ok-labs l4 kernel19:11
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johnxStskeeps, honestly I don't see much point in having debian behind android as-is since they use their own libc19:12
solcaStskeeps: android uses the bionic libc19:12
solcawhich is not a problem just that is redundant19:12
Stskeepsjohnx: true19:13
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Stskeepsjohnx: for the kicks :P19:13
RST38hjohnx: that isn't much of a problem though19:13
Stskeepssolca: think you might have better luck with reflashing initfs, flashing deblet bootmenu, writing a /linuxrc to handle the boot for you19:13
* RST38h has got to console prompt!19:14
Stskeepsand then you have a sane platform to try out android and get things crackin'19:14
RST38hYEssss, my precioussss consssole prompt...19:14
johnxStskeeps, sure I guess so, but it will involve booting debian, chrooting into your android install then running android and ignoring everything going on in the debian side for the most part19:14
* RST38h stil does not understand why people are so bent on replacing Maemo19:14
qwerty12RST38h, I have done the same with fanoush's tools but I had no way of inputting anything :P19:14
RST38hqwerty: you mean the console prompt? Oh, it is not on Maemo ;)19:15
Stskeepsjohnx: true ;)19:15
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qwerty12RST38h, Ah, I thought you were talking about the tablet. I've had it on maemo.19:15
StskeepsRST38h: i'm still pondering deblet purpose / goal really :P19:15
Stskeepscos if we continue down the road it's just a similar-to-maemo-as-it-SHOULD-be distro19:16
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Stskeeps(as in how maemo -should- be)19:16
solcaStskeeps: yea, BTW I'm testing all stuff from Deblet19:16
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binkyHi all.19:16
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Stskeepssolca: ta - glad to see there's some people willing to sacrifice time and health on it ;)19:16
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binky-awesome, the online IRC client i'm triying works--19:17
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andre___hmm, docs people will hate me for mass spamming them by moving around bugzilla components...19:17
solcaStskeeps: I'm just wondering that I flash the Maemo with X but I was wondering if I could boot Deblet without X19:17
binkyanyway, i'm here to ask a question if somebody can answer.19:17
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solcalast time I try I get a blank screen19:17
binkyMy 770 started an endless reboot cycle. Sometimes the blue bar loads and reaches the end, ant then it stays like 30 seconds in a blank screen and reboots again -_-19:18
Stskeepssolca: yes, you can, and then hold down home key to get up rescue menu19:18
Stskeepsand then enable console19:18
Stskeeps(when it boots)19:18
binkyI tried to reflash, but the Windows Flasher wanted me to update to Diablo (in a 770, that's silly)19:18
binkyAnd i can't download the binaries from
binkyBecause I don't have the MAC of my device, and if I remove the battery, I can get WSOD.19:19
solcaStskeeps: excellent! thx!19:19
binkyCan anyone tell me the MAC of its device or point me to a mirror for OS2006 or OS2007HE binaries so I can reflash my 770? thankyou =)19:20
solcaStskeeps: btw do you have some sane initfs that I can download to fix this thing?19:20
Stskeepssolca: when i say barebones, i really mean barebones :P19:20
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Stskeepssolca: just reflash from a fiasco image19:20
Stskeepsthere's a "only reflash -this part-" switch in flasher19:20
lardmanbinky: why does removing battery give you wsod?19:20
solcaStskeeps: no! that would burn my settings!19:20
lardmanbinky: some hw issue? loose contact?19:20
solcaStskeeps: ohh you mean I can throw a fiasco image and just tell the flasher to flash just the initfs?19:21
Stskeepssolca: you just asked if i had a initfs.. :P19:21
Stskeepssolca: yes19:21
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GeneralAntillesWhat a surprise, cable's out again.19:21
binkylardman: No, 770 has that f***ing defect...19:21
lardmanthe General takes over the body of another of his minions19:22
Stskeepsi thought the WSOD occoured when reflashing or something :P19:22
RST38hsts: That may be a goal on its own although I doubt it is a very large niche19:22
* binky should buy a N800...19:22
lardmanbinky: my point is, if you flash, you have to power down completely, so it makes no odds19:22
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, during start up.19:22
binkylardman: Yeah, I can turn it down19:22
GeneralAntillespower on, more accurately.19:22
binkyIt turns off itself after a couple of minutes19:22
binkyand I can connect it to my computer with a USB cable19:23
lardmanso taking the battery out to see your actual MAC is no worse than switching off and then reflashing19:23
RST38hsts: I would rather see something that runs stuff in chroot and tries to intelligently modify their gtk UI to fit Hildon, more or less19:23
RST38hsts: because running xfce et al on a tiny (physically) touch screen is weird19:23
binkylardman:  I know, there is the same risk, but I stilll being afraid19:23
binkyIs there example of MAC or something?19:23
lardmanso just pull the battery out19:24
lardmanno extra risk19:24
qwerty12Pull it out. If it fucks up, use it as an excuse to get an N800.19:24
binkyqwerty12: sorry, I'm 13. If I break it I may get hit =P19:25
qwerty12Ah, heh, I know what you mean...19:25
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Stskeepsyes, we beat qwerty12 all the time19:25
johnxevery time you turn it on it is just as likely to go WSOD19:25
binkyqwerty12: I know, ALL of you were 13 -__-19:25
johnxif it's off now, pulling the battery won't make a difference19:25
lardmanthanks johnx19:25
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binkyjohnx: sure?? curious19:26
* lardman was having typers block19:26
* binky stills afraid. 19:26
lardmanbinky: yes19:26
johnxbinky, it's the turning on part that kills it19:26
johnxif you don't want to break it pull the battery and never turn it on again19:26
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* johnx was never 13. He had to repeat 12, then skipped to 1419:26
Stskeepsjohnx: i guess that would go for constant rebooting too :P19:26
* Stskeeps skipped 14, can't recall that year19:27
lardmandrinking from noon?19:27
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Stskeepsnah, that was 1819:27
binkythank you people19:28
binky(I'm idiot, I didn't dare before) -_-19:28
johnxnow never turn it off again :)19:28
johnxI know. It's definitely scary to break hardware you can't afford to replace19:28
cowbellemoo^ truth19:29
lardmanDid we forget to tell you, everytime you switch it on you reduce your chances of getting a WSOD in the future19:29
cowbellemoothe opposite is also true19:29
binkyI wouldn't. But all of you that have it know that it reboots randomly, doesn't19:29
woglindeh I wonder when we have kids at age of 6 here19:29
lardmanor is that just my theory?19:29
binkywoglinde: Yesterday I saw a 5 years old kid with a Vaio, we're not that far.19:30
cowbellemooI keep leaving my old ipod in the car in the hopes someone will steal it and I have the excuse to trade up  :P19:30
Stskeepswoglinde: when sugar gets working on tablet19:30
lardmancowbellemoo: car? ;)19:30
woglindehm I dont saw many africaan people chatting19:30
lcukwoglinde, my jacob plays with nokia all day - he loves mah jong and keeps drawing trains inliqbase19:30
cowbellemoolardman, I want an excuse to get a new car, too.  :D19:31
woglindelcuk my son likes to watch the aquarium screensaver19:31
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johnxlots cheaper than a real aquarium :D19:31
woglindehehe yes19:31
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* qwerty12_1 cries as I burn a 700MB iso onto a DVD-r19:32
woglindeqwerty12_1 dvd is cheap19:32
johnxqwerty12_1, be happy with media prices these days </old man rant>19:33
binkyqwerty12_1: I cried when a friend burnt 90 mbs of photos in a DVD... sigh19:33
qwerty12_1woglinde, yeah, but i'm a tramp and can't be bothered to keep getting them :P19:33
qwerty12_1binky, what? lol19:33
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* GeneralAntilles just uses hard drives for installers.19:33
qwerty12_1Though I should note to remove the plastic cover from top of the disk, the dvd drive went crazy19:33
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lardmannot £4/disk anymore then?19:34
johnxa guy on my floor in college put a cracked cd in his drive to back it that's a dvd drive going crazy :D19:34
woglindeqwerty12 bye a dvd-+rw nextime19:34
qwerty12_1yeah :)19:35
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johnxlardman, optical media, expensive gas. :D how times change...19:35
* qwerty12_1 reboots into linux to backup my scratchbox's ~19:35
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woglindeqwerty12_1 hm did you finalize the dvd? otherwise you can put tracks ahead19:36
GeneralAntillesHrm, almost forgot about this
lardmanyeah well, I still spend more of petrol than DVD-Rs19:36
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solcaStskeeps: it works! with ./flasher -f -F fiasco_img.bin --flash-only=kernel,initfs -R19:46
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woglindesolca hm I think this mentioned in the wiki for flasher19:47
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solcawoglinde: really, where to?19:48
GeneralAntilles~flasher is
infobot...but flasher is already something else...19:48
infobotmethinks flasher is
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solcaGeneralAntilles: cool! now to learn about all those weird flags...19:50
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solcait seems is not complete, what it means R&D mode?19:52
woglindeR&D is some developer mode19:53
woglindeis one way to get root support19:53
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solcawoglinde: where can I get more info on those r&d flags?19:58
GeneralAntillesThey're fairly descriptive19:58
woglindesolca ther is only one19:58
GeneralAntillesThere are several19:58
woglindehm oh19:58
solcaI have seen the no-lifeguard-reset used by various people but I don't know what it means19:59
woglindeups sorry19:59
woglindeI thought only for --enable-rd-mode19:59
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GeneralAntillesno-omap-wd no-retu-wd no-lifeguard-reset serial-console no-usb-timeout19:59
GeneralAntillesThere's a lifeguard daemon process that monitors certain other processes and will trigger a reboot if they go down19:59
solcano-.*wd for disabling the hw watchdogs me thinks19:59
solcaGeneralAntilles: so these no-lifeguard-reset is a flag that is polled from userspace so a daemon is not run?20:01
GeneralAntillesI'm not certain of the specifics of the implementation20:01
GeneralAntillesbut you'll experience no lifeguard resets when that flag is set.20:01
solcaGeneralAntilles: and where are this flags stored? NAND?20:02
solcain the bootloader area? nolo?20:02
GeneralAntillesLikely the config partition20:02
GeneralAntillesI don't recall offhand, though.20:02
solcabtw this flag '--set-root-device' it works just for the standard kernel?20:04
solcaI mean I compiled a kernel and flash it but it cant make the rootfs a mmc partition20:04
solcaI change the kernel cmdline to root=/dev/mmcblk0p220:05
solcabut this kernel would boot only from nand20:05
solcaI recheck and MMC is _in_ the kernel20:05
solcaany ideas?20:06
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johnxsupport for that fs in the kernel?20:06
solcaext2 too inside the kernel20:06
* solca is wondering that this --set-root-device flasher flag does, it seems is not documented20:08
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johnx~praise dh_make20:15
infobotAll hail dh_make!20:15
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solca~praise deblet's rescue menu20:24
infobotAll hail deblet's rescue menu!20:24
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Stskeepssolca: something like that should really be in initfs.20:28
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* solca agrees20:28
* solca nods20:29
solcaStskeeps: should be standard in the official firmware along with bootmenu20:29
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solcaStskeeps: do you use the r&d flags for something in Deblet?20:31
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Stskeepssolca: nada20:32
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solcaStskeeps: ok, one more thing:20:33
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solcaI'm currently in the framebuffer console, how to issue a Ctrl-C and how to put a | ?20:33
Stskeepsnoo clue. i don't own a n810, i usbnet in :P20:34
solcaI already figured out that <Menu> is <Tab>20:34
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solcaStskeeps: Deblet is so nice, I'm just wondering if something like libc6-i686 could be done to optimize the libc20:57
solcaI think stock armel debian is compiled for armv420:57
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Stskeepssolca: i did a libc.. sec20:57
Stskeepsdont take the nscd20:58
solcaexcellent! what cflags do you used? i think n8x0 supports '-mcpu=arm1136jf-s -mtune=arm1136jf-s'21:00
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qwerty12_N800it does21:00
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Stskeepssolca: something like that yeah21:00
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solcaStskeeps: why not put it in stock deblet? n710?21:03
Stskeepssolca: and because i'm not sure of the direct benefits21:03
johnxalso, I think I might have found the reason midori gave slower benchmarks with it: it affects thumb-mode which can result in a net slowdown21:05
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Stskeepsah, switches between thumb and not i guess?21:05
johnxyes, I believe so. did you see the other vfp benchmark page?21:05
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johnxI guess it's kind of an all or nothing deal :/21:05
Stskeepsisn't it armv4t though?21:06
Stskeepsso everything is thumb already21:06
r2d2rogersStskeeps: howdy, I'm trying to put deblet on my 770, but the21:06
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johnxStskeeps, mixing thumb code and vfp code is supposed to be slow from what I understand21:07
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: but the? ;)21:07
r2d2rogersStskeeps: howdy, I'm trying to put deblet on my 770, but the lxde package is broken, mssing a Dependancy21:07
Stskeepswhich one?21:07
r2d2rogersat least I managed not to paste 106 lines ;)21:07
solcajohnx: that was supposed in the old abi right? is the same for eabi?21:07
Stskeepsand are you using my 770Port wiki page or the installer?21:08
r2d2rogerswiki page21:08
johnxsolca, all I know about this is what I read here:
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: ok, but there's a higher level dependancy problem then :P21:09
r2d2rogersfigures... I don't usually have easy problems <G>21:09
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: i need a full output of apt-get install nit-env-lxde :P21:09
r2d2rogersone minute for link to a pastebin21:09
solcajohnx: ok, I'll read it, BTW I was looking into android and they have different cflags for thumb mode21:10
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Stskeepswhat does apt-get install nit-env-x say then?21:13
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: missing tablet-x21:17
r2d2rogersStskeeps: tried installing that and got
Stskeepsthat's weird. do me a favour and start over, and then do apt-get install nit-env-lxde straight away and give me the full error, and then track back21:19
Stskeepscos you installed stuff before21:19
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Stskeepsi hope to make a installer eventually but..21:20
Stskeepsit's kinda weird that it doesn't work21:20
* r2d2rogers scrolls back in his screen session to see if the first error was different21:21
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r2d2rogersthe only thing I *know* I did different was to correc /usr/bin/... to /usr/sbin at one point21:21
r2d2rogerschmod a+rx /usr/bin/invoke-rc.d21:22
Stskeepswhat does apt-get install nit-env-base say?21:22
Stskeepsbasic, that is21:22
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r2d2rogerssimilar but wants to remove rsyslog instead21:23
r2d2rogerswant it in pastbin?21:23
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Stskeepsdpkg -l | grep tablet-hw21:26
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r2d2rogers-:~# dpkg -l | grep tablet-hw21:27
r2d2rogersii  tablet-hw-su-18-nonfree       1.0                Nokia 770 non-free repo support21:27
r2d2rogersii  tablet-hw-su-18-support       1.1                Deblet Hardware support for SU-18 (770)21:27
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Stskeepsbrb going home21:38
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: cooo21:39
Stskeepstry install nit-env-basic and then nit-env-lxde i guess21:39
Stskeepsor something21:39
r2d2rogerslet it remove the rkog bit?21:39
r2d2rogerswill do21:39
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Stskeepsthat's normal21:41
Stskeepsi let it use a circular syslogd instead21:41
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unixSnobmaemo doesn't know what a gsm file is.  What should I convert it to?  ogg?21:51
woglindegsm is a standard?21:51
unixSnobwoglinde: gsm is a standard for voice21:51
unixSnob(these are voicemails)21:51
woglindehm oh I thought you mean the GSM standard21:52
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woglindemaemo can play ogg yes21:52
unixSnobmp3 isn't an option, btw, because it has licensing issues21:52
woglindemp3 I do not know because the license problem21:52
unixSnobokay, thanks.. i'll try ogg21:52
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solcaunixSnob: FLAC is patent-free and is lossless21:55
unixSnobsolca: thanks for the tip - i'll try that if ogg doesn't work.  However, it wouldn't be ideal, because the source files are rough quality voicemails21:56
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unixSnobhmm.. ogg doesn't work.. "unable to recognize file type..."21:56
unixSnobwhat a pain in the ass.  flac is not supported by sox21:57
qwerty12_N800Doesn't your phone record as .amr? I can play calls recorded from my phone on the N800 without conversion.21:57
solcaunixSnob: for voice speex is a good choice too21:57
unixSnobany other audio formats i should try?21:57
woglindeI thought the gestreamer can handle ogg21:57
qwerty12_N800woglinde, not by default21:58
* unixSnob tries wav next21:58
woglindeqwerty12 whats the default then?21:58
woglindeand why is nokia failling at this point21:58
qwerty12_N800woglinde, mp3, amr? :p. ogg support has to be installed separatly21:59
woglindeqwerty12 you are sure nokia paid the mp3 license?21:59
qwerty12_N800woglinde, i'd hope so...21:59
solcaat least nokia should support the free codecs out of the box (flac,speex,ogg)22:00
l7yeah, it is strange how they don't22:00
l7maybe because it's more work for them22:00
woglindeor do sisvel have some fear to sue nokia22:00
kulveI just checked the archos 5 device and that does support ogg, so at least some new commercial devices do support og..22:01
solcakulve: does it supports flac too?22:01
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kulveit mentioned ogg and vorbis only22:01
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kulveno, it does mention flac too22:02
GAN800Maemo 5 supports ogg22:02
woglindeGAN800 *g*22:02
kulveGAN800: it does? Is that a wish or has it been stated somewhere?22:02
GAN800kulve, it does.22:03
unixSnobdamn.. wav doesn't work either.  It recognizes wav, launches the player, but then a popup "media codec not supported"22:03
GAN800Announced at the Summit.22:03
kulvein that case I don't need to update my ogg-support anymore ;)22:03
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GAN800kulve, well, you can stop 6-8 months from now.22:03
woglindekulve hm did you just install the gstreamer plugin?22:04
kulveI've compiled the needed plugins and libraries and they are downloadeble through the
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kulvevia a package called ogg-support22:05
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woglindewhy nokia didnt do this22:06
solcakulve: great, thx for the package22:06
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woglindekulve extras or extras-devel?22:07
kulvewoglinde: I guess because of some legal/licensing thikngs22:07
woglindeyou mean ogg can have some problems?22:07
kulvewoglinde: unfortunately it's not in those repositories but in my own.22:07
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woglindehm oh22:08
woglindeI just wanted point unixsnob to it22:08
kulvewoglinde: a company can pay to get mp3 but they can't pay and get ogg.. They just need to hope that they are not sued for anything..22:08
unixSnobi give up trying to find a natively supported format.  How do I install ogg support from the app manager?  I don't see it in the user/multimedia catagory22:09
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woglindeask kulve if he gives you his .deb22:09
solcakulve: would you make your package public?22:10
kulveI'm trying to browse the but the is as slow as usual.. :/22:10
kulvesolca: it is public22:10
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woglindewhats the problem with uploading it to extras-devel?22:11
kulveI've modified the Nokia's gstreamer packages and it would be bad thing to offer a different source package with the same name22:11
woglindeyou could rename it a little bit22:12
kulveso I would have to rename the sources first. And the mogg -project has also uploaded e.g. libogg so I shouldn't override it either..22:12
woglindeor ask the board members here how to solve it22:12
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woglindekulve hm who is enabling extras and extras-devel should know what he is doing22:13
kulveI guess we'll just wait the 8months to get it officially in maemo22:13
kulvebut now I'm off22:13
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JamieBennettanyone want to tell me why I can't get my content to center using css? I think its something to do with margin  but for the life of me I can't see it22:23
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JamieBennettno website gurus around then ?22:27
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straind`Hey folks, I've got a 770, and after it has been idle for a while it asks me to press the power button followed by the select button.  Any idea how I turn that off?22:32
r2d2rogersBrightness setting icon atthe top22:32
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r2d2rogerslook for lock screen and keys22:33
straind`Thanks.  I just looked at that, and ignored it. :)22:33
r2d2rogersI'm trying to get deblet installed on my 77022:34
straind`I've had my 770 for about a year now, and had it loaded up just how I wanted it.  Then I was playing with Bluetooth and installed some packages and had to reflash it.  I lost kismet and several other things that were working until then. :(22:36
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r2d2rogersall my settings are sitting on my MMC in a dual boot22:36
r2d2rogersor... on my *other* MMC22:36
r2d2rogersso I can get back to that when I'm ready22:37
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r2d2rogershmmm 770 rebooted22:39
r2d2rogerschroot build again22:39
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JamieBennetthow often does planet pick up feeds?22:48
bergieJamieBennett: every hour22:49
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JamieBennettbergie, interesting. I have a post from several hours ago (6 maybe) that hasn't been syndicated yet.22:51
bergiedo you use feedburner or something like that inbetween?22:51
lcukJamieBennett, is that cos your other one is still there?22:51
bergielcuk: we don't check against that22:51
JamieBennettlcuk: other one? I've had up to 4 posts on the planet and the front news site at a time22:52
* lcuk didnt know22:52
JamieBennettbergie: yes22:52
bergielcuk: planet you can spam full if you want... social news is the filtered one22:52
bergieJamieBennett: can you check if FB has picked up your story yet?22:52
bergiesometimes they cause quite long delays22:52
bergieI noticed my feed might get delayed 6+ hours because of FB so I disabled it22:53
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JamieBennettYes, its in feedburner as of 11:24 this morning (
JamieBennett9 hours ago22:54
bergieok, let me check what the importer log says22:55
JamieBennettbergie, cool, I've noticed it a few times22:55
JamieBennett(maybe something to do with my feed?)22:55
bergiethings are little slow still until we get green light for upgrading the servers to ragnaroek22:56
bergieBTW, I saw some weird timestamps on the servers... I think the VMware virtual servers don't quite stay on time22:56
bergiethat can easily affect feed imports22:56
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JamieBennetttiming issues will definitely do it22:57
bergieJamieBennett: what is the name of your blog?22:57
bergie"Latest item is from 10/26/08 23:12:42, latest fetch was on 10/30/08 12:29:49"22:58
bergieevery other feed has latest fetch from around 22:4022:59
JamieBennett:( Thought it was every hour22:59
bergieaha... "No items found in feed."22:59
JamieBennettIt finds them most of the time
bergieyeah... let me check if there is some parsing issue in the feed23:00
bergiethe URL subscribed is BTW23:01
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JamieBennettyes, my maemo only feed23:01
bergie"MagpieRSS: Failed to fetch"23:02
JamieBennett(I'm not partial to thumb downs ;))23:02
bergieI think it timeouts or something23:02
JamieBennettload problem ala karma or feedburner?23:02
bergiefeedburner23:03 didn't get it either23:03
JamieBennettOK, your timeout too strict or something I should take up with feedburner?23:03
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pupnikhey i found a great deal on ebay! in Austria: nokia 770 for 250 euro23:07
woglindepupnik to much23:08
florianpupnik: hehe23:08
JamieBennettpupnik: not sure on how much they normally are but 770's on ebay in the UK for for 80-100 euro max23:08
JamieBennett810's are a different matter23:08
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JamieBennettbergie: whats with the new date added to the karma display, first time karma was registered? Would be more useful as last time karma was indexed.23:10
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JamieBennettoh and bergie: 'This feed is valid', from feedvalidator.org23:11
bergieyeah, sometimes it responds in time, sometimes it doesn't23:12
bergieJamieBennett: the problem is, the RSS importer only gets one try per hour23:12
pupnikoop forgot my sarcasm tag...23:13
JamieBennettbergie: OK sometimes it timesout but 9 times in the last 9 hours, its either a low threshold with your software of bad problems googles end (and feedburner)23:14
bergieJamieBennett: not unheard of with feedburner, unfortunately :-(23:14
JamieBennettbergie: maybe its time I switched then :)23:15
JamieBennettbergie: as for the karma question?23:15
bergieit *should* be the time of last recount, but I've seen quite wild numbers there, possibly because server clocks have been running crazy23:15
bergielike it said my karma was from Nov 27th 2007 or something like that23:16
JamieBennettbergie: yes my karma was 2007 too :)23:16
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JamieBennettbergie so it _should_ be last indexed time?23:16
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JamieBennettgood idea when it works23:17
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bergieJamieBennett: I've tried manually reloading your feed a couple of times... doesn't help23:22
JamieBennettbergie what about ?23:22
bergiethat isn't a feed :-)23:23
JamieBennettOK :)
bergieon my test box the latest item is "Mamona & Maemo: 2 way contribution"23:24
JamieBennettYes, thats one in front of planet.maemo.org23:24
JamieBennettso maybe I should get rid of feedburner then23:24
JamieBennett(as you seem to see the correct feed directly)23:24
bergieFB seems to do bad things23:25
JamieBennettCan you change it bergie or who do I email?23:25
bergiebetter if you contact X-Fade... I'm trying to keep my hands off actual site content :-)23:26
JamieBennettOK, no problem. Thanks for narrowing it down to feedburner for me23:26
bergiehehe... I just went through some performance test results between the Midgard we're running on, and the one on my laptop... some 160x the speed23:26
bergieI mean versions, not server setups23:27
JamieBennett:) lets hope the new servers give us something remotely like that23:27
bergieI don't think we'll get quite that big difference when we upgrade, but it should be significant23:27
JamieBennettthen its time for the software upgrade too then ;)23:27
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GNUtonHi there23:29
woglindehi gnuton23:29
GNUtonHey woglinde23:29
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lardmanAnyone following the PIM thing?23:30
woglindelardman not really23:31
woglindeI read most of the old arguments23:31
JamieBennettbergie: one last question, when will Karma catch up? I only ask as (somewhat related) I went to xfade's account and his Karma was from 04/10/08 nearly a year more than me :)23:31
JamieBennettlardman: yes23:31
lardmanhmm, karma, I wonder if I still have 8 for discussion....?23:31
JamieBennettlardman: mines from 2007 it says :)23:32
lardmanyeah, mine's still broken too then23:32
bergieJamieBennett: there are 14k entries to run through, 300 per hour23:33
bergie...starting from oldest updated ones23:33
lardmanbergie: have the problems been fixed?23:33
lcukall from a 770 multitasking running the main server at same time!23:33
bergieactually the recounts started only some 5 hour ago, as yesterday there was a setup problem with it23:33
JamieBennett46 hours then23:33
bergielardman: yes... we split the recount into smaller chunks so that it doesn't run out of memory/time23:34
JamieBennett(2 days)23:34
JamieBennettsounds like a plan bergie23:34
lardmanbergie: cool23:34
bergielater on I'd like to split all these heavy calculations (social news, karma, ...) off the actual front-end server23:34
bergiebut that depends on the infrastructure Nokia gets from Ixonos23:34
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lcuknice, bergie, you could let us fill in our own karma values :) we won't cheat.  honest23:35
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JamieBennettlardman: PIM?23:35
woglindere lcuk23:35
lardmanlcuk: your comment about the powervr is unsubstantiated, and I think it's wrong23:36
JamieBennettlcuk:-200 for the accent ;)23:36
GNUtonpoor lcuk :D23:36
lardmanJamieBennett: &
bergieanyway, guys... if you have any issues with the web stuff, I'm most of the time lurking here so feel free to ping me :-)23:36
JamieBennett(I'm a northerner too ;))23:36
JamieBennettthanks for your help bergie23:36
lcuklardman, duly noted and ive done what i can to de-emphasise it23:39
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lcukJamieBennett, my accent is perfect tyvm :P i was less northern then than ever23:40
lardmanI've added a bit more blurb agreeing that we will still have the platform limited display bandwidth23:40
JamieBennettlcuk ;) Its the scouse :)23:40
lcukthen you are double wrong, im a mancunian23:40
JamieBennettlardman: PIM depends entirely on where Nokia want to take the device23:41
lardmanJamieBennett: you'll offend him!23:41
qwerty12_N800JamieBennett, Omg, another one with the accent?!? (i'm a yorkshire boi :p)23:41
JamieBennettlardman, that was the intention ;)23:41
lardmanJamieBennett: agreed, but it would be useful to see what people want, and what's already supplied; even if Nokia don't do this for us, it could be another community driven thing23:41
JamieBennettqwerty12_N800 Yorkshire boy myself :D23:41
JamieBennettlardman: but for instance would you want a PIM on an archos device?23:42
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JamieBennettqwerty: where from?23:42
qwerty12_N800Halifax :)23:42
JamieBennettBradford :D23:42
lcuklardman, "from the kernel" you mean the powervr kernel? does it have one or is it just a custom chip - im assuming its similar in principle to the dsp23:42
lardmanJamieBennett: if it were my only portable computer, then yes ;)23:43
lardmanLinux kernel I meant23:43
lardmanit's just hardware afaik23:43
lardmanthough it may have shaders and bits like that which are programmable23:43
JamieBennettlcuk; The best insult for a manc is to insult his football team or call him a scouse :)23:43
lcukbut the linux kernel doesnt manage the powervr - i thought it was like the dsp in that regard23:43
lcuk /ignore JamieBennett23:44
lardmanlcuk: yes the Linux kernel does manage the powervr23:44
lardmanlcuk: afaik it maps the registers, etc., into some part of kernel memory and the powervr kernel driver controls it23:44
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* lardman wonders why people don't add patches to gpe-calendar23:48
lardmanor rather people on itt don't add patches23:48
lbtsoon - first I'm patching egroupware to fix the iCal export...23:48
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