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| lbt | I like the double click on the stars :) | 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| lcuk | double click? | 00:05 |
| lcuk | lbt, jott keeps mentioning lqios | 00:06 |
| lbt | I thought double click brought up the butty | 00:06 |
| lbt | butty it doesn't | 00:06 |
| lcuk | its starting to wear in :) | 00:06 |
| lbt | <groan> | 00:06 |
| lcuk | heh, bacon only runs on the 2nd invocation of stars per session | 00:06 |
| lcuk | so close and rerun | 00:06 |
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| lbt | double click on the next release :) | 00:06 |
| lbt | It would make a superb launcher too | 00:07 |
| lcuk | but we are using a stylus | 00:07 |
| lcuk | yes, quite a few people have remarked on that | 00:07 |
| lbt | double tap - one for each slice | 00:07 |
| lcuk | the only problem so far is closing and reopening after app is finished | 00:07 |
| lcuk | ill have to look | 00:07 |
| lcuk | heh, its only bacon | 00:07 |
| lcuk | you dont have bread :P | 00:07 |
| lbt | 's OK I like it crunchy | 00:07 |
| lcuk | i will have a look at just closing the XV window and minimizing the x11 window | 00:07 |
| lcuk | incase the user wants to run mplayer or something :) | 00:08 |
| lcuk | some days i curse having to hack it all like this | 00:08 |
| lcuk | but other days i scratch at my screen in wonderment at how well it operates ;) | 00:09 |
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| lbt | would a window of images scroll as smoothly as a window of text? | 00:09 |
| lcuk | scratching at my screen - thats the description i couldnt find the word for in my presenetation | 00:09 |
| lcuk | go into options | 00:09 |
| lcuk | blit test | 00:09 |
| lcuk | then press +- hardware buttons | 00:10 |
| lcuk | it does normal blits of images | 00:10 |
| lcuk | and after you scaled it stretchblits | 00:10 |
| lcuk | so yes | 00:10 |
| lbt | and did you get the variable scaling working at all? | 00:11 |
| * lcuk missed a trick there - i should have scaled once, stored the result then just used the faster standard blit | 00:11 | |
| lcuk | what do you mean variable? as in stretchblit? | 00:11 |
| lbt | the cheap 'lens' effect | 00:11 |
| lcuk | heh not yet :) | 00:11 |
| lcuk | but i have ideas and it will come | 00:11 |
| lbt | yes - but variable across the screen? | 00:11 |
| lbt | yes? | 00:11 |
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| lcuk | not yet | 00:12 |
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| lcuk | are you running it now on your nokia? | 00:13 |
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| lbt | y | 00:13 |
| lcuk | i just realised, the default installed version starts at 640*480 - all images are using stretchblit to begin with at that resolution | 00:13 |
| lcuk | its actually faster at scrolling the images at 800*480 | 00:13 |
| lbt | as it happens I went to 800x480 | 00:14 |
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| lcuk | yeah, its what i use - i had to knock it down though because *some* tablets exhibit a strange effect the first time you run after a reboot | 00:14 |
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| lcuk | closing liqbase and rerunning magically makes it work | 00:15 |
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| lbt | apt-get source liqbase doesn't work... | 00:19 |
| lcuk | oooer, i sent the source to them as part fo the extras thing, and its live in the garage | 00:19 |
| qwerty12_N80O | lcuk, did you promote the source too? | 00:20 |
| lcuk | and im sure its buildable from that source because I commit from the tablet, clean down vmware and update to latest and build package there | 00:20 |
| lcuk | probably not :$ | 00:20 |
| lbt | I'd have thought it would have gone there as part of the autobuilder... | 00:21 |
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| * lcuk didnt know i had to - i thought users might get it listed | 00:21 | |
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| lcuk | lbt, qwerty is right | 00:21 |
| lcuk | it is all in extras-devel but i dont tihnk i promoted the source | 00:21 |
| lbt | no probs :) | 00:22 |
| * lcuk is doing it now :) | 00:22 | |
| lcuk | alright ive added them | 00:23 |
| lcuk | ill know in future, thanks for the heads up again qwerty | 00:23 |
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| lbt | OK - gotta go - hopefully I'll be back a little more often in the future :) | 00:24 |
| * qwerty12_N80O so needs a dark os2008 theme that isn't as radical as lcars | 00:24 | |
| qwerty12_N80O | :) | 00:24 |
| lcuk | alright lbt, good to see you still about | 00:24 |
| lbt | cheers all - g'nite... | 00:24 |
| qwerty12_N80O | 'night | 00:24 |
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| RST38h | qwerty: The iPhone theme! | 00:29 |
| * RST38h waits for somebody to throw up | 00:30 | |
| * lcuk uses badly rendered marble as his theme | 00:30 | |
| qwerty12_N80O | RST38h, heh :p. i'll see if i can mess with konttori's theme maker enough to produce me a port of the os2007 appleenvy theme | 00:31 |
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| Pavlov | is there a fast scratchbox.org mirror somewhere? | 00:36 |
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| lardman | ah, so metromap is a port: http://metromap.antex.ru/ | 01:05 |
| lardman | with a fair few maps too: http://pmetro.nm.ru/Maps.html | 01:08 |
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| fish_ | hi | 01:11 |
| fish_ | the audio output of the nokia 770 should be switched from speaker to headphones if i plug them in, right? by hardware i guess? something is wrong here, i have no audio on my headphones.. :/ | 01:12 |
| lardman | software switch actually | 01:13 |
| lardman | though it should happen automatically | 01:14 |
| lardman | should be a sysfs entry to can write to to change that iirc | 01:14 |
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| fish_ | lardman: ah thanks, thats a good hint | 01:15 |
| fish_ | i have /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/speaker/connection_switch which always stats 'disconnected' | 01:17 |
| lardman | /sys/devices/platform/ gpio-switch/headphone/state | 01:17 |
| lardman | minus the space in the middle of course | 01:17 |
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| fish_ | lardman: nope, i dont have that file but switching the output via echo connected > /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/speaker/connection_switch works | 01:20 |
| fish_ | maybe i have no state file and the auto-switching doesn't work because i'm runnung the OS07 hacker edition | 01:21 |
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| lardman | fish_: that may be on a later kernel anyway, I don't know (I think it was for an n800, no idea what sw release though) | 01:23 |
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| lardman | you can switch though? | 01:23 |
| lardman | so the hw isn't broken | 01:23 |
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| Pavlov | is there a faster repository.maemo.org mirror? | 01:32 |
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| lardman | I don't think there are any mirrors at all | 01:34 |
| Pavlov | ;/ | 01:35 |
| hellwolf | How to make the media player support ogg/flac et | 01:36 |
| hellwolf | etc | 01:36 |
| lardman | what am I, an Oracle? ;) | 01:36 |
| lardman | hellwolf: there's an ogg support package in extras, install that | 01:36 |
| lardman | hellwolf: not sure about flac, but there is a flac decoder dsp task in Garage | 01:36 |
| hellwolf | lardman, I saw a lot of ogg related things, but I don't know which one to install | 01:37 |
| lardman | hellwolf: nor do I | 01:38 |
| lardman | hellwolf: try the maemo.org wiki, I seem to remember there being a page there | 01:38 |
| lardman | or try itt | 01:38 |
| lardman | where itt is of course: | 01:44 |
| lardman | ~itt | 01:44 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, itt is the forums on internettablettalk.com ( http://internettablettalk.com/forums ) | 01:44 |
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| lcuk | lardman, yes | 01:47 |
| lcuk | can you tell me where one of my socks is - tracy is goin ape at me cos theres one missing | 01:48 |
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| * lcuk personally thinks it got up and walked | 01:48 | |
| lardman | yes, mine tend to walk away from the landry basket | 01:48 |
| lardman | do you have a compass? | 01:48 |
| lardman | bearing 014 degrees, 4 metres | 01:49 |
| lcuk | :D ahhh cool - i wonder how it got into nextdoor's bedroom though | 01:49 |
| lardman | lol | 01:49 |
| lardman | you don't place them in glass jars to stop them melting through floors/walls? | 01:50 |
| lcuk | no, the glass tends to still bend | 01:50 |
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| lcuk | i have a stasis field | 01:50 |
| lcuk | it keeps them fresh :D | 01:50 |
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| lcuk | i think for the first time in months i am relaxed | 01:51 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N80O: you about London boy? | 01:52 |
| lardman | I've got lots on this week, annoyingly it's taking longer than I hoped | 01:52 |
| lcuk | day work or another one of your little projects? | 01:53 |
| lardman | yeah day job, far too many little projects to do in my spare time too! | 01:53 |
| lcuk | yeah know that feeling, our main client just came back and asked for something that was ruled out on day 1 | 01:54 |
| lcuk | luckily i expected it and coded accordingly | 01:54 |
| lardman | pre-emptive coding | 01:55 |
| lcuk | more a case of coding generally and not tying myself to one specific path too early - the changes essentially involve me reading a diff listing and applying the changes | 01:56 |
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| lcuk | im in 2 minds about the icons in liqbase | 01:56 |
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| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.20081028_235446.gary.scr.png i added the method to put them in, but now they are there is less usable | 01:58 |
| lardman | no idea from me I'm afraid | 01:58 |
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| lcuk | np, just thinkin out loud really :P | 01:59 |
| lcuk | lardman, this one will though: http://liqbase.net/liq.20081026_204523.gary.cam.png | 02:01 |
| lcuk | i want a proper library :P | 02:01 |
| lardman | barcode scanning :) | 02:02 |
| lardman | you want a barcode scanning library? | 02:03 |
| lcuk | could do with a proper on | 02:03 |
| lcuk | e | 02:03 |
| lardman | yes, I think that would be worth doing | 02:03 |
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| lcuk | yeah, at present all i am doing is recognising that ive got white bars and all greyscale in between | 02:04 |
| lcuk | and then stretch blitting that block of pixels into a strip of 85 chars | 02:04 |
| lcuk | and doing some simplistic filtering to try and get things | 02:05 |
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| lcuk | i have no idea if the codes are valid or anything | 02:05 |
| lcuk | hence library time - its not my forte | 02:05 |
| lardman | I'm planning on doing some more work on maemo-barcode asap | 02:05 |
| lardman | I see no reason not to produce some sort of backend library that other apps can use too | 02:06 |
| lcuk | yeah, well this is sitting waiting - ive made a barcode icon in liqbase camera, tap it and it engages any barcode | 02:06 |
| lardman | cool | 02:06 |
| lardman | and the dsp-jpeg stuff | 02:06 |
| lardman | you're filling up my free time far too quickly! | 02:06 |
| lcuk | heh seriously no rush on dsp, that is just wishlisty | 02:07 |
| lcuk | but i can see practical things for the barcode, as you have said yourself | 02:07 |
| lardman | you know the barcode stuff is pretty well contained in one file? | 02:07 |
| lardman | for 1D barcodes that is | 02:08 |
| lcuk | i never jumped in that far, and i know nothing about libraries | 02:08 |
| lcuk | yeah - how would we handle rotated barcodes | 02:08 |
| lardman | depends how far it's been rotated | 02:08 |
| lcuk | i mean proper full 360deg support | 02:09 |
| lardman | for 1D barcodes, they can rotate quite a long way and still be readable | 02:09 |
| lardman | hmm, not somehting I'm too interested in tbh | 02:09 |
| lcuk | i was toying with the idea of using it not as a barcode, but as a joystick | 02:09 |
| lcuk | recognise the cube and get its orientation and scale from that | 02:09 |
| lardman | That's another interesting idea, quick image correlation,e tc., | 02:09 |
| lcuk | and then position things | 02:09 |
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| lcuk | and btw, look at that image - thats taken at 320*240 - from your professional eye, is there enough resolution to grab a valid code from it | 02:10 |
| lcuk | even if we have to move slightly closer | 02:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, well, there are lots of mirrors. | 02:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | The Akamai network, for instance. :P | 02:10 |
| lcuk | mornin GeneralAntilles | 02:10 |
| lardman | probably want it a bit closer | 02:10 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: of the repos? | 02:11 |
| lcuk | ahhh then i lose focus | 02:11 |
| lardman | more light | 02:11 |
| lcuk | ok, ill work something out - i might grab the checksum side of the code and see if i can identify valid blocks | 02:11 |
| lcuk | yes! the semi flash idea - ill ensure a white block remains in the corner | 02:11 |
| lcuk | doh! that explains why i couldnt scan a small section of any barcode - the red LED was shining back and tinting the barcode - it scans for greyscale specificall | 02:12 |
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| GeneralAntilles | GeneralAntilles, yes, there's a giant network of servers mirror repository.maemo.org | 02:13 |
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| lardman | hmm, he's talking to himself.... | 02:13 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Nobody actually accesses repository.maemo.org | 02:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 02:13 |
| lardman | fair enough | 02:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/GeneralAntilles/lardman/ | 02:13 |
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| lopz | hola | 02:14 |
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| lardman | time for bed | 02:15 |
| lardman | night cha[s | 02:15 |
| lardman | chaps even | 02:15 |
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| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, have you seen the guy who wants to move task bar | 02:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | No? | 02:16 |
| lcuk | do you want to (tongue in cheek of course) want to tell him to simply rotate his nokia | 02:16 |
| lcuk | you have such a way with words that i cannot manage | 02:16 |
| lcuk | you answer so quickly lol | 02:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Where? | 02:18 |
| * GeneralAntilles just got home and hasn't caught up. | 02:18 | |
| lcuk | errr -dev i think | 02:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, -users | 02:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | I wasn't paying much attention | 02:18 |
| lcuk | heh, i just saw you rip through people who i deliberated for ages to try and explain to | 02:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Any thread Mark is involved in I try to avoid responding in detail to. | 02:19 |
| lcuk | any -user thread normally ends up skipping my inbox | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe, lcuk's shakily holding a 9mm at the guy and I sprint onscreen from the left with a sword and cut 'im in two? :P | 02:19 |
| lcuk | it only remained (and I thought it was -dev) because he mentioned liqbase | 02:20 |
| lcuk | yeah gen, thats it to a tee | 02:20 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, actually the benq is running moblin aka maemo IIRC | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx? | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Moblin certainly isn't Maemo | 02:21 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, well it's certainly hildon | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Despite whatever allnameswereout may think, I lost my desire to coddle and spoon feed most people directly from working to help them in helpdesk like situations. | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which really doesn't make it Maemo | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | but what, in particular, are you responding to? | 02:22 |
| johnx | fair enough, I suppose | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | I mean, ArchLinux aka Debian because both can run LXDE? | 02:22 |
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| johnx | nah, but it's fair to talk about maemo on a gnome list in certain circumstances because one is derived from the other | 02:23 |
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| GeneralAntilles | For anybody who missed mvo's reply: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104 | 02:34 |
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| johnx | w00! That is the most heartening Nokia reponse in that whole exchange | 02:38 |
| pupnik | y'all are cool | 02:38 |
| pupnik | how are you, johnx? | 02:38 |
| johnx | pretty good. and you? | 02:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, well, I don't doubt there are a lot of people in Maemo Software pushing in that direction | 02:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't think most of them want to talk about it in public, though. | 02:39 |
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| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I *did* doubt that before I saw that response though | 02:39 |
| pupnik | thinking about work, economy etc. hard to think about tablets atm. | 02:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, that's too bad. | 02:39 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I'm not very optimistic about companies handling Linux-based devices (example: zaurus) | 02:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | The issue has always been more of a management one. | 02:40 |
| pupnik | has kotczarny been around in the last 4 weeks or so? | 02:40 |
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| AStorm | hello | 02:40 |
| pupnik | i suppose i could google that... | 02:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | :shudders: Maybe at the outside edge of 4 weeks. | 02:40 |
| lcuk | pupnik, not in here, but i was speaking to him earlier | 02:41 |
| AStorm | I can see no Xournal im maemo-extras | 02:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~seen KotCzarny | 02:41 |
| infobot | kotczarny <n=ariel@pool-72-76-3-73.nwrknj.east.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 26d 14h 49m 38s ago, saying: 'nite nite'. | 02:41 |
| AStorm | someone has lied to me | 02:41 |
| pupnik | heh, what's up with him lcuk? | 02:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=site:repository.maemo.org+xournal | 02:41 |
| lcuk | when did you last see him? | 02:41 |
| pupnik | don't ask me questions like that | 02:42 |
| pupnik | a lifetime ago.. | 02:42 |
| lcuk | heh, i meant speak to him | 02:42 |
| lcuk | hes in #liqbase | 02:42 |
| pupnik | long time. just wondering if he was intere...ahhh | 02:42 |
| lcuk | heh | 02:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, and about the economy. It's time to start squirreling away supplies and getting ready to hole up, pupnik. ;) | 02:42 |
| AStorm | GeneralAntilles, it's not getting found! | 02:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | AStorm, are you missing one of either: Chinook Extras or Diablo Extras-devel? | 02:43 |
| AStorm | GeneralAntilles, ahh, extral-devel | 02:43 |
| AStorm | that version is unusable | 02:43 |
| AStorm | it has to die | 02:43 |
| AStorm | I want a usable build, for diablo | 02:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Chinook Extras | 02:44 |
| AStorm | with less crashes and more speed than chinook one | 02:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then get to building. | 02:44 |
| AStorm | yeahyeah | 02:44 |
| AStorm | and you'll pay me? | 02:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | No | 02:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't use Xournal | 02:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Why would I pay for software I don't use? | 02:45 |
| AStorm | I'll gbrab maemopad+ instead | 02:45 |
| lcuk | AStorm, what kind of sketching are you after | 02:45 |
| AStorm | good sketching, as note taking | 02:46 |
| lcuk | cos liqbase does the business for me | 02:46 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/ | 02:46 |
| lcuk | ;) | 02:46 |
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| lcuk | and it includes a big fat berlin presentation to see | 02:46 |
| AStorm | a pds | 02:47 |
| AStorm | lcuk, offline please? | 02:47 |
| lcuk | offline? | 02:47 |
| AStorm | and not slow., able to handle 40-90 pages | 02:47 |
| lcuk | liqbase is entirely offline | 02:47 |
| lcuk | watch the video | 02:47 |
| lcuk | you WILL be surprised | 02:47 |
| lcuk | its VERY quick | 02:47 |
| AStorm | for maemo, right? | 02:48 |
| lcuk | i take notes with it all day | 02:48 |
| lcuk | yes | 02:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hrm, Overo's out I guess. | 02:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | 256MB RAM, 256MB NAND | 02:48 |
| AStorm | a kind of categorization mpad+ has is nice | 02:48 |
| AStorm | although not essential | 02:48 |
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| lcuk | astorm, tagging and grouping not yet in place, but i just browse through and review what ive done often | 02:50 |
| AStorm | is it an app written by you? | 02:51 |
| lcuk | yes | 02:51 |
| lcuk | the first video is my summit presentation | 02:51 |
| AStorm | ok, I'm sold | 02:51 |
| lcuk | lol | 02:51 |
| lcuk | its in diablo extras, but if you need it for older let me know ill try and rustle something up | 02:51 |
| AStorm | no no, diablo is very ok | 02:53 |
| AStorm | will check it out in a sec | 02:53 |
| AStorm | but I'll reinstall xournal first | 02:54 |
| lcuk | np :) | 02:54 |
| AStorm | xournal has problems with 20 or so pages, which is fail | 02:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody needs to stick a native interface on this: http://flickr.com/photos/qole2/2978324995/ | 02:55 |
| AStorm | not so fast this drawing :P | 02:57 |
| lcuk | which drawing? liqbase | 02:58 |
| lcuk | go into options and up the cpu... | 02:58 |
| lcuk | "performance" does exactly what it says | 02:58 |
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| AStorm | mhm | 03:00 |
| AStorm | noted | 03:00 |
| AStorm | couldn't ondemand with toggle for performance preferrence work as well? | 03:01 |
| AStorm | (by default it prefers powersaving) | 03:01 |
| AStorm | btw, screen doesn't refresh on switch until some event happens | 03:02 |
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| lcuk | on switch hmmm ahhh you mean when it blanks | 03:02 |
| lcuk | yeah its noted as a bug | 03:02 |
| lcuk | ondemand DOES go upto full speed - but my drawing routine is too fast and keeps the cpu under 40% when in use | 03:03 |
| lcuk | so the cpu clocks back down | 03:03 |
| lcuk | i could work round it and stay in ondemand by simply drawing the screen multiple times per frame | 03:04 |
| lcuk | but thats wasteful | 03:04 |
| lcuk | and performance is so much crisper in the rest of maemo as well ;) | 03:04 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, whats wrong with that screenshot you pasted? | 03:05 |
| lcuk | its already in maemo | 03:05 |
| AStorm | lcuk, what abt conservative? | 03:07 |
| lcuk | powersave is just slower | 03:07 |
| AStorm | with and w/o powersaving bias :) | 03:07 |
| lcuk | its workable, but lower the resolution | 03:07 |
| AStorm | conservative != powersave | 03:08 |
| AStorm | conserv. iks slow ondemand | 03:08 |
| AStorm | *is | 03:08 |
| lcuk | ahhh, whats the diff - cos i noticed only 3 primary modes | 03:08 |
| AStorm | switches slower and step by step | 03:08 |
| lcuk | the 3 i put in were the main ones that had a definable difference | 03:08 |
| lcuk | cool | 03:08 |
| lcuk | its fairly simple to implement, i just didnt think i needed the others | 03:09 |
| AStorm | conservative has a number of thresholds to tuune | 03:12 |
| AStorm | separate down/up, for instance | 03:12 |
| lcuk | ill have a readup about it AStorm | 03:14 |
| AStorm | default 80/20 up/down | 03:14 |
| lcuk | heh, liqbase will probably still fall under it | 03:14 |
| GAN800 | lcuk, look at the widgets | 03:15 |
| GAN800 | it's easy Debian | 03:15 |
| lcuk | yeah gen, ahhh you mean hildonization | 03:15 |
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| GAN800 | Yeah . . . native. | 03:15 |
| lcuk | sorry misunderstood | 03:16 |
| lcuk | i glanced at first and saw it running in maemo | 03:16 |
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| pupnik | it's like constant orgasm to have internet everywhere :) | 03:22 |
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| tank-man | you become a walking google proxy of information? | 03:46 |
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| l7 | heh | 03:48 |
| l7 | having internet every with my tablet is a bit of an overstatement | 03:48 |
| l7 | wifi coverage is rather hit or miss. i wonder if pupnik has wimax | 03:49 |
| l7 | also, i wish the browser was a bit faster... even turning off all extensions and javascript it still seems slow | 03:49 |
| l7 | could be the wifi of course | 03:49 |
| johnx | well it can only speed up from here :) | 03:49 |
| lcuk | no, just sits near a hotspot | 03:49 |
| l7 | heh | 03:50 |
| l7 | maybe turning off images would help | 03:50 |
| johnx | there's a lot of performance improvements in upstream firefox that need to get merged in | 03:50 |
| l7 | which firefox? fenec or another build of microb? | 03:50 |
| johnx | microb is based on an old version of ff3 | 03:50 |
| l7 | are there any other tweaks one can apply to speed up browsing on the tablets? | 03:51 |
| johnx | you can play with cache size and number of simultaneous connections | 03:51 |
| johnx | there are a couple posts about it on ITT | 03:51 |
| johnx | also, try and limit how many windows you have open and apps running at the same time | 03:52 |
| lcuk | i would like to see a ground up implementation of a browser | 03:52 |
| johnx | that's kind of a lot of work I gather | 03:52 |
| lcuk | :) ive never been one to shy away | 03:52 |
| lcuk | start simple, work up from there | 03:52 |
| johnx | the problem is a simple browser isn't really usable | 03:53 |
| l7 | yeah, i shut everything down when trying to browse | 03:53 |
| johnx | at least in this era :) | 03:53 |
| lcuk | depends upon purpose - for html books its perfect | 03:53 |
| l7 | i have to say the mytube client really rocks though | 03:53 |
| l7 | it's fast and stable and doesn't freeze the machine while downloading stuff like gpodder or canola | 03:53 |
| johnx | but that's not a browser, it's an ebook reader like fbreader | 03:53 |
| lcuk | for jazzy css encrusted multifaceted workhorse i agree | 03:54 |
| l7 | i guess craigslist could be reasonably fast on the tablet | 03:54 |
| lcuk | the problem with the current browser isnt that its slow persay | 03:54 |
| l7 | handy for posting missed connections i guess | 03:54 |
| lcuk | its that it feels slow | 03:54 |
| johnx | lcuk, surf with dillo2 or links2 graphical mode for a bit and tell me how fun it is :) | 03:54 |
| johnx | well, the other problem is that it's slow... | 03:55 |
| l7 | the other thing is that when you're outside trying to browse a bit before the bus comes or something, you really want things to load quickly | 03:56 |
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| l7 | if you're a library or cafe though, it's not such a bit deal | 03:56 |
| l7 | or sitting in your car, etc | 03:56 |
| johnx | actually, what I really care about most is my RSS reader refreshing quickly, but I get your point | 03:56 |
| l7 | what rss feeds do you want to keep up with on the go? | 03:57 |
| johnx | basically a whole bunch of tech news | 03:57 |
| l7 | i guess it's a fun break at work or school, maybe :) | 03:57 |
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| johnx | just basic on-the-bus reading material :) | 03:57 |
| l7 | heh | 03:58 |
| SDuensin | Everyone get http://down.codeweavers.com/ today? If not, HURRY! | 03:58 |
| l7 | yeah, i wish i could tell the RSS reader not to delete all my reading material so quickly | 03:58 |
| l7 | maybe, the other RSS reader in extras likes to retain things better | 03:58 |
| johnx | feed circuit? yeah, I need to try it | 03:59 |
| l7 | Main Website Temporarily Offline? | 03:59 |
| SDuensin | l7 - They got slammed. :-) | 03:59 |
| tank-man | Main Website turn on! | 03:59 |
| l7 | heh | 03:59 |
| l7 | what was the main codeweavers article about? | 04:01 |
| SDuensin | Free CrossOver - today only! | 04:01 |
| l7 | hrm, all of it? | 04:02 |
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| l7 | why? | 04:02 |
| SDuensin | Yea, all of it! An entire year subscription to their Pro product, which includes Games and reduced prices on subscription renewals. | 04:02 |
| SDuensin | Watch the video. :-) | 04:02 |
| l7 | that's crazy | 04:03 |
| SDuensin | But download the toys and sign up for serials! | 04:03 |
| l7 | i guess that's marketing for you | 04:03 |
| SDuensin | Yes. It is! | 04:03 |
| l7 | thanks for the link though :) | 04:03 |
| * SDuensin is an owner of CO Mac Pro. Nice to get the Linux one. | 04:03 | |
| SDuensin | YW | 04:03 |
| l7 | ah | 04:04 |
| l7 | can you request both mac and linux serials for the same email account? | 04:04 |
| AStorm | lcuk, ondemand with up_threshold of 20 is great | 04:05 |
| AStorm | maybe 25 | 04:05 |
| AStorm | hmm, I'd stgill like conservative more | 04:05 |
| AStorm | but can't get a good setting | 04:05 |
| AStorm | conservative uses all the freqs | 04:06 |
| AStorm | the problem with it is that unlike ondemand, its sampling rate is too slow | 04:07 |
| AStorm | it has more tunables, which we can't use, as sampling of 0.5s is too slow | 04:08 |
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| AStorm | ondemand uses 0.172s | 04:09 |
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| l7 | weird, crossover is a 25 meg shell script for linux | 04:18 |
| SDuensin | Self-extracting archive. | 04:18 |
| AStorm | ok, good setting for ondemand is 40 for up_threshold | 04:18 |
| AStorm | makes it match activity well | 04:19 |
| AStorm | maybe even 50 | 04:19 |
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| AStorm | as high as it doesn't affect speed :) | 04:20 |
| AStorm | 80 is too high :) | 04:20 |
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| l7 | craigslist is fast on the tablet at least | 05:02 |
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| fiekia | can i move my system directories from the 256 to the 2gb? | 05:53 |
| johnx | fiekia, yes | 05:54 |
| johnx | http://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card | 05:54 |
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| fiekia | oh wow, that works too | 05:55 |
| johnx | the 2GB is essentially an sd card soldered onto the n810's circuit board :) | 05:55 |
| fiekia | right i knew that much | 05:56 |
| fiekia | it seems slow though, maybe the removable would be faster? | 05:57 |
| fiekia | anyone know what class the internal is? | 05:57 |
| fiekia | err, if someone responded, i didnt get it | 06:00 |
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| johnx | no one responded | 06:00 |
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| johnx | I'd answer but I have an n800 | 06:01 |
| johnx | some people probably benchmarked it on itt. you could at least run the same benchmark and see how your speeds line up: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11695 | 06:01 |
| fiekia | ill look into that | 06:02 |
| fiekia | i might try to get ubuntu mobile working now that i know i can boot to flash | 06:03 |
| fiekia | will be on later | 06:03 |
| johnx | fiekia, check deblet out :) | 06:03 |
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| AStorm | hey again | 08:09 |
| johnx | hallo :) | 08:09 |
| AStorm | where should I add my ondemand settings to set them on startup? | 08:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's ondemand by default. . . . | 08:10 |
| AStorm | but with 80% up_threshold | 08:11 |
| AStorm | not 50% with powersave bias | 08:11 |
| johnx | hijack a random file under /etc/rc2.d or make your own | 08:11 |
| AStorm | which means much less responsive and laggier | 08:11 |
| AStorm | mhm... | 08:11 |
| johnx | sadly os2008 has no /etc/rc.local which would be the *right* place for a one-liner | 08:12 |
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| GeneralAntilles | johnx, bug? | 08:12 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, probably the result of a package they left out | 08:13 |
| johnx | I'll check in a sec | 08:13 |
| AStorm | johnx, two-liner :) | 08:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Either way, have you filed a bug? | 08:13 |
| johnx | no, I have not, yet | 08:13 |
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| * GeneralAntilles is cold. | 08:15 | |
| johnx | everytime someone doesn't file a bug, you die a little inside? | 08:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nah, it's below freezing outside and I refuse to turn on the heater. | 08:16 |
| johnx | holy craps. It's 68F here | 08:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I will take away their right to complain until they do. :P | 08:16 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I think it's the result of an architecture choice | 08:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fair enough, but it would be nice to at least have some sort of explanation | 08:17 |
| AStorm | how do I add the script to the runlevel? | 08:17 |
| AStorm | some command, or old-school ln -s? | 08:18 |
| johnx | ah, just do ln -s | 08:18 |
| johnx | there's a maemo services control panel plugin though if you want to do it the fancy GUI way | 08:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | and since there seems to be more than a few people wanting to add scripts to the startup, and thanks to the brittleness of Maemo's boot procedure, it's probably better to not have them messing around where things can break easily. | 08:18 |
| johnx | rc.local is just as likely to break things | 08:19 |
| johnx | in fact it's probably better to have it be a little scary instead of really accessible :) | 08:19 |
| qwerty12_N80O | AStorm, The original ondemamd setting is set by initfs and kernel so you can remount one rw amd recompile the other :p | 08:19 |
| qwerty12_N80O | hi everyone | 08:19 |
| AStorm | yeah right | 08:19 |
| AStorm | as if I have time for that | 08:19 |
| johnx | moreover, I think not having initscripts (the package including rc.local) is the *right* architectural choice if it's not needed, which it appears not to be | 08:20 |
| AStorm | my Gentoo stint is scheduled for later | 08:20 |
| johnx | ah, shove your changed in /mnt/initfs/linuxrc | 08:21 |
| johnx | that seems like the most "right: place if you're into that sort of thing | 08:22 |
| AStorm | well, Nokia shnould consider it to be default | 08:23 |
| AStorm | improves perfomance multiple-fold | 08:24 |
| johnx | well then talk to them, by all means :) | 08:24 |
| AStorm | not sure if how much battery life it costs | 08:24 |
| AStorm | none at idle at least | 08:24 |
| johnx | up_threshhold 80 is the generic cpufreq default, right? | 08:24 |
| AStorm | yes | 08:24 |
| johnx | they'd prpbably welcome suggestions then | 08:25 |
| AStorm | maybe :) | 08:25 |
| AStorm | according to my log, this setting neatly uses cpu when needed | 08:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | 50%? | 08:26 |
| johnx | anyways, I'm off into the real world. 'later | 08:27 |
| AStorm | when usage is over 50% current, yes | 08:27 |
| * Pavlov perks up at multiple-fold performance improvements | 08:27 | |
| AStorm | earlier setting was far too close to powersave :) | 08:27 |
| * GeneralAntilles sells Pavlov an N810 CPU upgrade kit. | 08:28 | |
| Pavlov | if you want to put an cortex-a9 in my n810 i'll put it in the mail _right now_ | 08:29 |
| * GeneralAntilles drools. | 08:29 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Handheld computing is going to be something else in a few years. | 08:29 |
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| Pavlov | would be fun to get a multicore cortex-a9 | 08:30 |
| Pavlov | not sure what i'd do with it | 08:30 |
| Pavlov | but i'd find something! | 08:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody should wedge an Overo into an N800. | 08:31 |
| Pavlov | i should hook up an eink screen to my broken n810 | 08:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Hrm, does the Mugen battery actually have a separate battery cover or is the battery the cover? | 08:32 |
| qwerty12_N80O | separate cover iirc | 08:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mmm | 08:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Excellent | 08:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | That leaves plenty of room to scramble up the insides to put an Overo in. | 08:32 |
| qwerty12_N80O | benson wedged a mugen into his n800 | 08:33 |
| qwerty12_N80O | yerga, if noone else does it, i'll upload octave | 08:34 |
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| AStorm | I'd hack more memory into n810... possible? | 08:38 |
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| AStorm | as in RAM | 08:41 |
| AStorm | I suspect it uses some cheap chip | 08:41 |
| qwerty12_N80O | hehe, according to | 08:42 |
| qwerty12_N80O | this, it's combo ddr :p | 08:42 |
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| ryoohki | is there any way to get libhildonfm2 1:2.0.2 for the wimax edition? | 08:42 |
| qwerty12_N80O | stupid h-i-m | 08:43 |
| ryoohki | also, is there any difference between the wimaxpre release and the version being sold now? | 08:43 |
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| qwerty12_N80O | tell the person to update their program. 1:2.0.2 is old ass | 08:44 |
| ryoohki | qwerty12_N80O: skype and many othe programs require it | 08:46 |
| qwerty12_N80O | hmm, that's odd. what version is your tablet at the moment? | 08:46 |
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| ryoohki | qwerty12_N80O: it the OS2008 0.2008.14-9 | 08:47 |
| qwerty12_N80O | that's pretty old. i'm running 4,2008.36-5 here. see if you can update it or something | 08:48 |
| ryoohki | qwerty12_N80O: is that a wimax 810? | 08:49 |
| AStorm | have this and test your cpufreq | 08:49 |
| AStorm | http://wklej.org/id/13680/ | 08:49 |
| qwerty12_N80O | ryoohki, plain n800 | 08:49 |
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| AStorm | wimax n810 should be running latest chinook | 08:50 |
| AStorm | or diablo even | 08:50 |
| ryoohki | AStorm: when will dialo be available foor it? | 08:50 |
| AStorm | it is already | 08:51 |
| AStorm | for n800, obviously not | 08:51 |
| qwerty12_N80O | AStorm, that pastebbin's plaintext sucks ;) | 08:52 |
| AStorm | why? | 08:52 |
| AStorm | it sends utf-8 | 08:52 |
| qwerty12_N80O | i wgetted it and it sent it with CRLF >.< | 08:52 |
| AStorm | hmmh? | 08:53 |
| ryoohki | AStorm: latest diablo available for n800 | 08:53 |
| AStorm | http://wklej.org/id/13680/txt | 08:53 |
| AStorm | ryoohki, there's none | 08:53 |
| AStorm | and it will take time I suspect | 08:53 |
| ryoohki | how can i know chinook from diablo? | 08:54 |
| AStorm | I'm runnung Version:Â 4.2008.36-5 on my n810 | 08:54 |
| AStorm | this is diablo, .34 is chinook | 08:54 |
| AStorm | or something | 08:54 |
| qwerty12_N80O | no, 2.2007 is chinook | 08:54 |
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| AStorm | ah right | 08:55 |
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| ryoohki | how can one know the hw version? | 08:55 |
| AStorm | ryoohki, hw? as in n810 wimax or not? | 08:55 |
| AStorm | I'd try Control Panel->About product | 08:56 |
| ryoohki | AStorm: not the sw version but the hw version. some things have hw versions | 08:56 |
| AStorm | ... | 08:57 |
| AStorm | it's mentioned in the box | 08:57 |
| qwerty12_N80O | wimax n810 = rx-48 | 08:57 |
| AStorm | on top | 08:57 |
| AStorm | yes, that too | 08:57 |
| AStorm | and diablo tells about wimax too | 08:57 |
| ryoohki | there must not be a new sw update for it | 08:57 |
| AStorm | hmm? | 08:58 |
| qwerty12_N80O | check with the windows flasher, it's got the upper hand over tablets-dev anyway | 08:59 |
| ryoohki | when i look for firmware updates, it say my 12 digit code is wrong but it's typed in carefully | 08:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | ryoohki, where? | 09:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nowhere where you would put in a MAC has FIASCO images for the RX-48 | 09:01 |
| ryoohki | i'm in san jose, ca | 09:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Where did you type in the MAC address. | 09:03 |
| ryoohki | GA: huh? | 09:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | The 12-digit code. | 09:03 |
| ryoohki | in the nokia firmware download page | 09:03 |
| AStorm | ryoohki, which page? | 09:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | There are several | 09:04 |
| AStorm | you've tried to dl n810 firmware I guess | 09:04 |
| AStorm | not wimax n810 | 09:04 |
| ryoohki | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810.php | 09:04 |
| AStorm | ryoohki, WRONG page | 09:05 |
| AStorm | :) | 09:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | ryoohki, the WiMAX edition firmware isn't available yet. | 09:05 |
| AStorm | hehe | 09:05 |
| AStorm | I wonder why | 09:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it doesn't really matter, because A. It probably ships with the latest firmware anyway, and B. Software updates are done through the Application Manager now anyway. | 09:05 |
| AStorm | there are tons of wimax fixes in latest diablo | 09:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | AStorm, I dunno, we're missing 30-2 and 36-5 for RX-34 and RX-44, too. | 09:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3808 | 09:06 |
| AStorm | 36-5 is ok | 09:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Marcell and Quim have been poking the relevant people, anyway. | 09:06 |
| AStorm | that's SSU-able | 09:06 |
| AStorm | :) | 09:07 |
| AStorm | qwerty12_N80O, liked the script? | 09:07 |
| ryoohki | how do i set up ssu on the n810? | 09:08 |
| ryoohki | is it set up like that already? | 09:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes | 09:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | It'll notify you of updates. | 09:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~ssu | 09:08 |
| infobot | [ssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU | 09:08 |
| AStorm | it is enabled in newer systems, yes | 09:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hrm, anybody happen to have the flashing statusbar update icon they could take a screenshot of for me? | 09:08 |
| AStorm | including kernel and initfs upgrade | 09:09 |
| qwerty12_N80O | AStorm, haven't run it yet. i'll wait 'till i'm a computer to change it because i hate copy + paste on the n800 | 09:09 |
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| AStorm | then wget the url with /txt | 09:09 |
| AStorm | http://wklej.org/id/13680/txt - this | 09:09 |
| qwerty12_N80O | i did and that's where the crlf stuff comes from. | 09:10 |
| AStorm | jmust use http 1.1 | 09:10 |
| ryoohki | good night | 09:10 |
| AStorm | qwerty12_N80O, it uses host detection, use http 1.1 of wget | 09:10 |
| AStorm | or the browser | 09:10 |
| AStorm | life's good with a nice data plan :) | 09:17 |
| AStorm | but I'd prefer an n810-turned-iphone :) | 09:18 |
| AStorm | one less piece of junk to carry in my pocket | 09:18 |
| AStorm | (obviously, it'd need voice, video, sms and mms soft) | 09:19 |
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| AStorm | and brobably a tiny bit more cpu | 09:21 |
| AStorm | *probably | 09:21 |
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| vincenzo88 | Hello ! | 09:22 |
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| AStorm | hi | 09:23 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns | 09:29 | |
| AStorm | it's contagious! | 09:29 |
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| Stskeeps | indeed | 09:35 |
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| AStorm | btw, does anyone around has a list of baud rates accepted by Linux? | 09:38 |
| AStorm | I need one for ppp over usb | 09:38 |
| Stskeeps | the usual? :P | 09:39 |
| Stskeeps | 115200 is a good shot? :P | 09:39 |
| Stskeeps | to test with atleast | 09:39 |
| AStorm | no, it's too low | 09:39 |
| AStorm | that gives 120 kB/s | 09:39 |
| Stskeeps | we speaking ppp over usb-serial or? | 09:39 |
| AStorm | yes | 09:39 |
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| AStorm | as in cdc_acm modem | 09:40 |
| Stskeeps | good question really O_o | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | i'm not sure how low level it emulates a serial line | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | cos i've seen places the baud is irrelevant for usb | 09:41 |
| AStorm | it is relevant | 09:42 |
| AStorm | the device connected to usb dongle might not be fast enough to handle high baud rate | 09:42 |
| AStorm | i've set it to 921600 for now | 09:42 |
| AStorm | which is above max 7.2Mb available from hsdpa | 09:43 |
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| AStorm | not that my current cellphone can handle anything more than 3.6Mb | 09:45 |
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| AStorm | and also I'd have to be very lucky to even hit that speed :> | 09:47 |
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| RST38h | moo again | 09:51 |
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| AStorm | hmm | 10:02 |
| AStorm | it seems the 266 MHz speed is shunned by apps :> | 10:02 |
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| AStorm | I'll try with a slightly higher threshold | 10:04 |
| AStorm | (than 50) | 10:04 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | morning, Jaffa | 10:19 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, think we should try to get Nokia to generate some icons for the categories? | 10:32 |
| Jaffa | Yeah :-) | 10:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Will be a lot better integrated than a random GNOME or KDE theme. | 10:34 |
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| Macer | ok. is there another web browser for diablo other than microb? | 10:36 |
| Macer | i'd love something that supported zimbra and rendered it correctly | 10:37 |
| `0660 | fennec? | 10:37 |
| Macer | hm | 10:37 |
| Macer | havent tried it | 10:37 |
| `0660 | though i don't think it's ready for day to day use yet | 10:37 |
| Macer | can you point me towards a project page? | 10:38 |
| aquatix | google mozilla fennec | 10:38 |
| Macer | microb is kinda killing me w/ zimbra | 10:38 |
| aquatix | Macer: too slow? | 10:38 |
| Macer | need to access the briefcases | 10:39 |
| Macer | no.. rendering is bad | 10:39 |
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| Macer | it doesnt place frames in the correct place in ajax/advanced mode | 10:39 |
| Macer | forces the content frames to the left where the list panes are | 10:40 |
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| Macer | so my email list is behind the folder menus on the left | 10:41 |
| aquatix | might be because of the screen size | 10:41 |
| Macer | nope | 10:41 |
| Macer | deblet + Iceweasel | 10:41 |
| Macer | work just fine w/ same size | 10:41 |
| Macer | it it an obvious rendering problem | 10:42 |
| aquatix | ah, i see | 10:42 |
| aquatix | well, try fennec :) | 10:42 |
| Macer | fennec tho huh? | 10:42 |
| Macer | where can i get it? | 10:42 |
| aquatix | !google maemo fennec | 10:42 |
| aquatix | hm | 10:42 |
| aquatix | sec... | 10:42 |
| Macer | tnx.. looking for fennec on google now trying to find out where to dl | 10:44 |
| aquatix | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Mobile/Fennec/Releases | 10:44 |
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| aquatix | Macer: that has a small howto | 10:45 |
| Macer | thanks | 10:45 |
| qwerty12 | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Image:Appman-dialogs.png - haha, 77kb my arse | 10:45 |
| aquatix | it actually takes more than those 77KB showed, as it's also installing xulrunner | 10:45 |
| aquatix | qwerty12: ;) | 10:45 |
| aquatix | qwerty12: actually, fennec *is* 77KB :) | 10:45 |
| aquatix | packaged | 10:45 |
| aquatix | xulrunner is 26MB though ;) | 10:45 |
| qwerty12 | aquatix: I know that ;) but if xulrunner is a dependency, then in the end, it's a hell of a lot more than 77kb | 10:46 |
| aquatix | indeed | 10:46 |
| aquatix | i LOL'ed too when i did that howto | 10:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Macer, did you file a bug? | 10:47 |
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| Macer | GeneralAntilles no but i will soon | 10:58 |
| Macer | although it may be the zimbra side of things | 10:58 |
| Macer | thanks a ton aquatix .. will let you know how it goes | 10:59 |
| X-Fade | Morning. | 10:59 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Nice video! :) | 11:00 |
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| * Jaffa despairs at a thread on ITT: "Just here! my new Reopository for chinook" - I hope it's an old thread which has just had some activity | 11:07 | |
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| Jaffa | Ah, phew. It is. | 11:10 |
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| aquatix | Jaffa: :) | 11:14 |
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| Macer | hm | 11:19 |
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| Macer | fennec renders the email correctly | 11:19 |
| Macer | but messes up for the briefcases :) | 11:20 |
| aquatix | :) | 11:20 |
| Macer | no wait | 11:21 |
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| Macer | it renders just as bad as microb | 11:21 |
| Macer | maybe i can find a different way to use the briefcases | 11:22 |
| Macer | like maybe zimbra has a java ftpd or something | 11:22 |
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| Macer | fennec is horrible though ;) | 11:22 |
| aquatix | yeah, i uninstalled it rather quickly | 11:23 |
| aquatix | it's quite unresponsive | 11:23 |
| Macer | microb is great other than its inability to render zimbra's ajax mode | 11:23 |
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| Macer | haha | 11:23 |
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| Macer | yeah, and that replacement to the smart url bar in ff | 11:23 |
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| aquatix | btw, if you uninstall, be sure to delete your ~/.mozilla/fennec dir too | 11:23 |
| aquatix | saved me another 2.3MB | 11:23 |
| Macer | that pops up the smarturl stuff | 11:24 |
| aquatix | yeah, that's weird | 11:24 |
| aquatix | it's interesting | 11:24 |
| aquatix | but slow | 11:24 |
| Macer | takes up like 100% cpu | 11:24 |
| aquatix | and takes a little getting used to i guess | 11:24 |
| Macer | i disable that in ff on a desktop | 11:24 |
| woglinde | mozilla foundation perverted autotools as buildsystem | 11:24 |
| Macer | it it a bad feature | 11:24 |
| woglinde | for all stuff | 11:24 |
| Macer | the smartbar was a step backwards | 11:25 |
| woglinde | and now the refusing to fix it, you have to rely on stoneage autoconf | 11:25 |
| Macer | haha | 11:25 |
| * aquatix actually likes the desktop smartbar of Fx3 | 11:25 | |
| Macer | i hate it | 11:26 |
| aquatix | it adapted quickly to me | 11:26 |
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| aquatix | did you try it for longer than a day? | 11:26 |
| * Jaffa loves it. | 11:26 | |
| Jaffa | Would be nicer if, if there was a single result shown, enter to select it. | 11:26 |
| Macer | and what makes it so bad is that you cant just click on a checkbox to disable | 11:26 |
| Macer | aquatix .. no.. i hated it right away | 11:27 |
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| Macer | i thought it was a waste of the .0001% of cpu ;) | 11:27 |
| aquatix | Macer: well, after about a day it has some knowledge of your habits, and it gets a lot nicer | 11:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's ungodly slow here. | 11:27 |
| Macer | i just cant stand forced distractions | 11:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Good thing I don't use Firefox. ;) | 11:27 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: :) | 11:28 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: just curious, what browser do you use? | 11:28 |
| Macer | that thing reminded me of the office paperclip | 11:28 |
| woglinde | GeneralAntilles: dont look at the source code, otherwise you would cry | 11:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | I have a suspicion that they actually use x86 emulation for Firefox on PPC. | 11:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's unbelievably slow on PPC machines. | 11:28 |
| aquatix | ah | 11:28 |
| Macer | haha | 11:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, OmniWeb | 11:28 |
| Macer | i just use safari on my g3 | 11:29 |
| aquatix | ah, an OmniWeb user, nice :) | 11:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | I love the tab bar. | 11:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/bar/drawer/ | 11:29 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: I love the tab drawer. | 11:29 |
| Macer | yeah.. fennec gets a 2 | 11:30 |
| Macer | or 1 | 11:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fennec just hit alpha | 11:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Should be more interesting once we get a later alpha or beta release. | 11:30 |
| aquatix | fennec needs a lot of polishing/optimisations | 11:30 |
| aquatix | speedups would make it a lot more usable already | 11:31 |
| aquatix | as the gui already looks nice-ish | 11:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Performance is a blocker for release, anyway. | 11:31 |
| aquatix | indeed | 11:31 |
| Macer | and a rendering engine that supports zimbra ;) | 11:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | (final) | 11:31 |
| Macer | guess it's back to deblet | 11:31 |
| Macer | heh | 11:31 |
| aquatix | :) | 11:32 |
| Macer | deblet would own maemo once they get a couple things fixed in it | 11:33 |
| Macer | but sts and johnx are polishing the install/hardware support first which is great | 11:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hopefully Maemo will be moving to better upstream compliance. | 11:33 |
| Stskeeps | Macer: hoping to use deblet as a way to improve maemo into a more sane platform :P | 11:33 |
| Macer | tnx for the help.. bbl | 11:33 |
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| Jaffa | macer; 'own maemo'? | 11:44 |
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| aquatix | Jaffa: as in `pwn' | 11:45 |
| aquatix | `being better than' | 11:45 |
| Jaffa | aquatix: indeed. But given deblet is still using Maemo's power management, kernel, wireless drivers, battery charging, Hildon (or was that another Debian effort?) - I fail to see the pwnage | 11:46 |
| aquatix | ah :) | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | :) | 11:46 |
| * aquatix should try deblet | 11:46 | |
| * Jaffa is hip with the young kids, and stuff. | 11:46 | |
| aquatix | ghehe | 11:46 |
| aquatix | !age Jaffa | 11:47 |
| Jaffa | 30 | 11:47 |
| aquatix | oh, that's not old | 11:47 |
| Jaffa | See, told you :) | 11:47 |
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| * aquatix is only 4 revisions behind Jaffa | 11:47 | |
| * qwerty12 svn updates aquatix | 11:47 | |
| aquatix | nooess | 11:48 |
| * aquatix sees conflicts all over the place now | 11:48 | |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: it's just for fun project anyway :> | 11:49 |
| Stskeeps | and only hildon as a choice | 11:49 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa, I wouldn't call the kernel Maemo's seeing as the only maemo reference in the kernel is the debian packaging | 11:50 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: indeed - and it's fantastic, don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to manage expectations of people | 11:50 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: true, but with the binary blobs it's not possible to change the kernel revision is it? | 11:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, well, s/Maemo/Nokia/ | 11:50 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa, I hope that changes with linux-omap & the open source wifi driver :) | 11:51 |
| Jaffa | :) | 11:51 |
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| Macer | heh.. sorry | 11:55 |
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| Macer | maemo is good for quick hits to do things | 11:55 |
| Macer | but once deblet is polished it will be 10x more powerful | 11:56 |
| Macer | well.. more powerfil than hildon i suppose you can say | 11:56 |
| Macer | *powerful | 11:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't get using a desktop DE on a tablet. | 11:57 |
| Jaffa | Me neither. | 11:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | An entirely bizarre desire. | 11:57 |
| Jaffa | I didn't like it on an Eee (in general) | 11:57 |
| Macer | de cups support ;) | 11:57 |
| Macer | for one | 11:57 |
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| * aquatix rather likes the Maemo/Hildon gui | 11:57 | |
| Macer | better "window" management | 11:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | "better" | 11:58 |
| Macer | aquatix .. i do too | 11:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | overlapping windows really suck for finger usage. | 11:58 |
| aquatix | only gripe is the focus stealing | 11:58 |
| aquatix | windows popping to the front on some change | 11:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | MicroB | 11:58 |
| aquatix | indeed ;) | 11:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | That bug needs to be a blocker for Fremantle. | 11:59 |
| aquatix | overlapping windows would make more sense on a bigger screen with more pixels | 11:59 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: yeah :/ | 11:59 |
| Macer | aquatix .. i didnt mind it | 11:59 |
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| aquatix | Macer: having overlapping windows? | 12:00 |
| Macer | i think using pb's kde was a good experience | 12:00 |
| aquatix | whoa: http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22319/57217-fonts-imitating-life--four-well-written | 12:00 |
| Macer | other than the fact he released it as a huge meta type install | 12:00 |
| Macer | with a ton of apps i wouldnt have normally installed | 12:01 |
| * GeneralAntilles is ready to kill somebody over https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2405 | 12:01 | |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, That and the backspace key one where pressing it in a form sometimes goes a page pack makes me want to commit a mass-murder | 12:03 |
| qwerty12 | s/pack/back/ | 12:03 |
| infobot | qwerty12 meant: GeneralAntilles, That and the backspace key one where pressing it in a form sometimes goes a page back makes me want to commit a mass-murder | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's amazing that they even let it ship with those bugs. | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3179 | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Too | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, any chance on x11vnc in Extras? :( | 12:04 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, Not by me :(. I'm using a hacked up version myself :( | 12:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Crap | 12:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | I need libssl 0.9.7 | 12:05 |
| woglinde | hm | 12:05 |
| woglinde | I have qtnx ready | 12:05 |
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| woglinde | no need for vnc crap | 12:05 |
| woglinde | anymore | 12:05 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, If you can edit the dependencie (I'd offer but I'm in windows), you can install it and then symlink libssl 0.9.8 to libssl 0.9.7 | 12:07 |
| RST38h | EHLO all whom I haven't greeted yet today | 12:07 |
| qwerty12 | s/dependencie/dependency | 12:07 |
| qwerty12 | 'ello RST38h | 12:07 |
| * GeneralAntilles is too lazy to add Chinook Extras. | 12:07 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody else want to grab a screenshot of the update icon in the statusbar for me? | 12:07 |
| RST38h | General: BTW any news from Nokia on when external keyboards will start working correctly? | 12:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | They work correctly now. | 12:08 |
| woglinde | GeneralAntilles cant you use gpe-scap? | 12:08 |
| woglinde | GeneralAntilles and ssh? | 12:08 |
| RST38h | General: There is lag | 12:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Eh, lag is what it is. | 12:09 |
| RST38h | + there is some skipping/repeating, but the main problem is 1-2 seconds of lag | 12:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | I doubt it's a particularly easy thing to fix, personally. | 12:09 |
| RST38h | But you can't type with 1-2 second lag, really =( | 12:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | I've never seen skipping. | 12:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | and it's nowhere near 1-2 here. | 12:09 |
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| RST38h | Lots of people report lag with both USB and BT keyboards | 12:10 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Yes, I've seen it | 12:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | but it's not 1-2 seconds. | 12:10 |
| RST38h | For BT I would understand but why the hell would USB do it? | 12:10 |
| RST38h | General: try typing in Gnumeric | 12:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's the input method, certainly. | 12:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | and, thus, not necessarily a simple fix. | 12:10 |
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| RST38h | it is very annoying though: I ended up not using BT keyboard I bought | 12:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Good lord my install is messed up. | 12:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, anyway, if there's progress, you'll hear about it on the bug. | 12:11 |
| RST38h | hopefully | 12:11 |
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| Macer | is microb considered nokia software? | 12:15 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Maemo Software-software | 12:15 |
| Macer | tnx | 12:15 |
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| pupnik | when i bring mz tablet places, people ask about it... i wish we somehow had more ... mindshare among the public at large | 12:25 |
| pupnik | -me kicks germanz for swapping y ande z | 12:25 |
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| pupnik | hail mgedmin | 12:25 |
| pupnik | -join #politics | 12:25 |
| Jaffa | All hail the hypnotoad | 12:25 |
| mgedmin | moooo | 12:26 |
| Jaffa | http://r33b.net/ | 12:26 |
| pupnik | pme pheers | 12:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 12:26 |
| pupnik | and thank zou windows xp for xovering the xchat text-entrz field with zour stupid status bar | 12:27 |
| * GeneralAntilles recalls an engine sound for a car in Redline that (completely by accident) ended up sounding exactly like the hypnotoad. | 12:27 | |
| pupnik | brrrzrzzrzrrrzrzrzrrrrrrrrzrzrrrzrrz | 12:27 |
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| lardman | morning a;; | 12:28 |
| qwerty12 | hi ;ardman | 12:29 |
| lardman | lol, hi qwerty12 | 12:29 |
| *** pupnik has quit IRC | 12:29 | |
| qwerty12 | :) | 12:30 |
| lardman | you use the tube much? | 12:30 |
| lardman | ~lart Windows focus stealing applications | 12:30 |
| * infobot gives Windows focus stealing applications a good seeing to | 12:30 | |
| *** henrique-out is now known as henrique | 12:30 | |
| qwerty12 | I haven't used it recently :/ | 12:30 |
| lardman | I've found what I think is a newer version of metromap, is pretty cool | 12:30 |
| qwerty12 | Ah, cool, this will be useful :) | 12:31 |
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| lardman | I'll stick a tarball up, and try to join the Garage project | 12:31 |
| * qwerty12 used to have metro on my ppc | 12:31 | |
| RST38h | pupnik: Here? | 12:32 |
| Macer | there | 12:33 |
| gnuton | Hi there | 12:33 |
| Macer | bug #3832 ;) | 12:33 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Hey, gnuton, do you mind moving the Qt pages? | 12:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | We don't generally use namespaces for regular articles | 12:33 |
| gnuton | Hi GeneralAntilles ! | 12:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon:_Packaging_a_Qt_application should move to "Packaging a Qt application" | 12:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | for example | 12:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or I can move the pages and fix the links if you prefer. | 12:34 |
| gnuton | GeneralAntilles: yes, you can do it for me. Thank you | 12:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | gnuton, done. Also: http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Qt | 12:38 |
| EgS | hey gnuton! :) | 12:39 |
| EgS | gnuton: there is now a quassel stand alone app, that doesn't need a core to connect to. I thought you might be interessted | 12:39 |
| gnuton | EgS: That's great. where is the code? | 12:42 |
| gnuton | EgS: are you a Quassel Developer? | 12:42 |
| EgS | gnuton: it's in the git repository: git.quassel-irc.org/quassel.git (I think...) | 12:43 |
| EgS | gnuton: jeah we met at devdays in munich and I sent you an email recently | 12:43 |
| gnuton | Okay! Nice to see you again so! :D | 12:44 |
| gnuton | EgS: the real problem of quassel (and the most of Qt app in Hildon) is the adapt the UI to the small screen. | 12:45 |
| lardman | do keywords for a bug have to come from the list provided? | 12:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Generally speaking, I'd say yes. | 12:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I don't know what's involved in adding new ones. | 12:47 |
| lardman | and if nothing matches, then leave blank? | 12:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sounds like a question for andre___. | 12:47 |
| lardman | andre___: ping | 12:47 |
| * lardman remembers getting told off last time he added a bug | 12:47 | |
| woglinde | hi gnutoo | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Generally speaking, I don't think it's like tagging in the flickr sense | 12:48 |
| lardman | ah, I'll add it, I can always add keywords later on | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | but more a specific set of keywords that may or may not be appropriate for any particular bug. | 12:48 |
| * andre___ reads the backlog | 12:49 | |
| gnuton | GeneralAntilles: thank you for the support on the Wiki. | 12:49 |
| lardman | andre___: it's just a few up, about what I should add for keywords to a new bug | 12:49 |
| andre___ | lardman, want a new keyword, talk to me :) you can't set arbitrary values, that's what the status whiteboard is for | 12:49 |
| gnuton | GeneralAntilles: Let me know if you find other issue in my pages. | 12:49 |
| lardman | andre___: right, that's fine, thanks | 12:49 |
| andre___ | lardman, keyword proposals? :) | 12:50 |
| lardman | #3833 is in | 12:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | gnuton, that's the only thing I've noticed. ;) | 12:50 |
| andre___ | ah, k | 12:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Glad to help. | 12:50 |
| woglinde | gnuton I found one | 12:50 |
| lardman | andre___: nah, I'm ok; I was wondering if it was free-form and you just add likely search words | 12:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | We don't actually use the whiteboard at all. | 12:50 |
| woglinde | gnuton the valid subsections on control file are not correct | 12:50 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Is that what lardman's actually after? | 12:50 |
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| gnuton | woglinde: only one? I'm very lucky so! :D | 12:51 |
| woglinde | unfornatly the general blocks the site, so I can not fix it myself | 12:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | https. . . . | 12:52 |
| gnuton | woglinde: you need to log in first to modify something in the wiki | 12:52 |
| woglinde | ah oka | 12:52 |
| woglinde | y | 12:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | You can complain if you're willing to volunteer to delete the truckload of spam we get every morning when anonymous http edits are allowed. | 12:53 |
| * GeneralAntilles will change the text of the ban, though. | 12:53 | |
| Jaffa | You can login (via HTTP or HTTPS), or make anonymous edits via HTTPS. | 12:53 |
| * RST38h yawns widely | 12:54 | |
| * mgedmin loves how all anonymous edits are recorded as coming from 127.0.0.1 | 12:54 | |
| woglinde | done | 12:54 |
| RST38h | that's a bug | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not really | 12:54 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: The HTTPS ones shouldn't (unless the system changes have changed the architecture) | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's an artifact of the setup. | 12:55 |
| EgS | gnuton: yes we really need to redesign the dialogs for the lower screen resolution | 12:55 |
| mgedmin | is a bug | 12:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | The text of the ban now reads: "Anonymous edits over HTTP are not allowed. Log in (using your Garage account) or use HTTPS if you want to edit." | 12:55 |
| mgedmin | caused by the setup | 12:55 |
| RST38h | ideally, wiki should log IP and perform data mining to figure out supposed email address, postal address, latitude and longitude of the poster | 12:55 |
| RST38h | This way every spammer can be tracked down and eliminated | 12:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Meta:Anonymous_editing#Proposal | 12:56 |
| lardman | is using glade slow, specifically in python? Would I be better hand-coding a gui? | 12:56 |
| melmoth | lardman: no | 12:56 |
| melmoth | its actually fatser in python, (so i have been told) | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lardman: Depends on how complex UI you need | 12:56 |
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| lardman | ok cool | 12:57 |
| lardman | will make life easier using glade | 12:57 |
| melmoth | definitively | 12:57 |
| lardman | almost visual basic-like | 12:58 |
| lardman | that would be a nice project to do | 12:58 |
| * lardman shows his Windows roots and says he does like VB for writing quick apps | 12:59 | |
| * RST38h throws up at the mention of VB | 12:59 | |
| lardman | well you've got to agree it's got a shallow learning curve | 12:59 |
| RST38h | Is it a good thing? =) | 12:59 |
| lardman | yes | 12:59 |
| lardman | depending on what you're writing of course ;) | 13:00 |
| * johnx prefers shell scripting. often a GUI for a throwaway app is a waste... | 13:00 | |
| lardman | johnx: it's for those in-between ones, too complex to easily do in a shell-script, but can't be arsed to sit and write it in C | 13:01 |
| * Jaffa must try and do some Clutter experimentation this weekend. I read through the tutorial, confident it can now do the effect I want, but I can't decide whether to implement in C (well, no), Vala (would get distracted doing tooling), Java (would get distracted with my GObject Introspection -> Java OO wrapper tooling) or Python | 13:02 | |
| johnx | oh, you can write anything in bash :P web servers, package management systems, boot managers... | 13:02 |
| lardman | *can* ;) | 13:02 |
| RST38h | johnx: Shell syntax sucks. | 13:02 |
| woglinde | *g* | 13:02 |
| johnx | RST38h, but it's good for controlling other things that run in the shell | 13:02 |
| RST38h | johnx: yes, but that is what system() is for :) | 13:03 |
| woglinde | haha lately stumbled over inverted true/false on bash | 13:03 |
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| Jaffa | http://www.meow.org.uk/stan/pet_projects/ - talks, SMTP servers, httpds and pop3ds in bash :) | 13:03 |
| lardman | I don;t know what all the abuse about VB is for anyway, other than the crap basic, visual gtk+ python would be nice | 13:03 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: This sounds like a clear choice for Python :) | 13:03 |
| * Stskeeps curses javascript and swears -never- to do web programming again after tomorrow | 13:04 | |
| RST38h | lardman: The abuse about VB resulted from generally crappy quality of software written in VB | 13:04 |
| RST38h | lardman: Which resulted from easy learning curve | 13:04 |
| lardman | yeah | 13:04 |
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| * RST38h currently contemplating what he should curse next | 13:04 | |
| lardman | it's sometimes nice to not have to worry about the GUI stuff and just get on coding the logic | 13:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stupid people! | 13:05 |
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| RST38h | ~curse C++ templates for being overblown equivalent of #define | 13:05 |
| infobot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, C++ templates for being overblown equivalent of #define ! | 13:05 |
| RST38h | General: too easy. | 13:05 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: indeeed, it does. | 13:05 |
| lardman | ~curse really crappy Windows focus stealing apps, especially MATLAB! | 13:05 |
| infobot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, really crappy Windows focus stealing apps, especially MATLAB! ! | 13:05 |
| * suihkulokki curses in the general direction of BIOS and ACPI | 13:05 | |
| Jaffa | How's ESBox and Pluthon for Python development in Eclipse? Do they code complete etc? | 13:05 |
| RST38h | MATLAB is really a Unix app | 13:06 |
| suihkulokki | stop hiding my hardware from me! | 13:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~curse qwerty12 for the hell of it | 13:06 |
| infobot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, qwerty12 for the hell of it ! | 13:06 |
| * RST38h smiles evilly at suihkulokki | 13:06 | |
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| qwerty12 | ~curse GeneralAntilles for cursing me | 13:06 |
| infobot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, GeneralAntilles for cursing me ! | 13:06 |
| qwerty12 | lol | 13:06 |
| qwerty12 | ~lart shitty torrents | 13:07 |
| * infobot beats shitty torrents to within 2.54cm of his life | 13:07 | |
| GeneralAntilles | ~curse qwerty12 for cursing GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12. | 13:07 |
| infobot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, qwerty12 for cursing GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12. ! | 13:07 |
| lardman | ~curse infobot | 13:07 |
| infobot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, infobot ! | 13:07 |
| lardman | hmm, not much ego | 13:07 |
| qwerty12 | ~curse GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 | 13:08 |
| infobot | May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 ! | 13:08 |
| lardman | glad we got that out of our systems | 13:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~lart lardman for being a stinker. | 13:12 |
| * infobot follow's lardman with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION for being a stinker. | 13:12 | |
| qwerty12 | ~curse lardman for hating qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 | 13:12 |
| infobot | May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, lardman for hating qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles for cursing qwerty12 who cursed GeneralAntilles because GeneralAntilles cursed qwerty12 ! | 13:12 |
| lardman | infobot has poor grammar | 13:12 |
| lardman | s/follow's/follows | 13:13 |
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| qwerty12 | infobot, beat lardman up for insulting you | 13:13 |
| * infobot beats lardman up for insulting you with a dripping-wet & less-than-fresh fish | 13:13 | |
| lardman | the youth of today! | 13:14 |
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| qwerty12 | Yeah, infobot does seem a bit violent | 13:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | More people need to review killing the old wiki. | 13:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Kill_the_old_wiki | 13:15 |
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| lardman | GeneralAntilles: are you happy with it? | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | I am, but what I consider useful and relevant isn't necessarily what somebody else considers useful and relevant. | 13:18 |
| lardman | well with the lack of interest/availability, I'd just "sign it off" and be done with it | 13:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm worried some potentially useful stuff has fallen under my radar and there's going to be some complaining when the stuff is actually deleted. | 13:18 |
| lardman | yeah well, people have had long enough | 13:19 |
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| lardman | is there a deadline date/time | 13:19 |
| lardman | send it to the list and give people their last chance, no complaints then | 13:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | November 4th according to the email I sent to -community on Monday. | 13:20 |
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| lardman | might be worth forwarding it to -dev and -users too to avoid complaints? | 13:27 |
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| lardman | gives them a working week to bring anything up, and a weekend inbetween which is good | 13:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm inclined to use it as leverage to get people onto -community. | 13:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | If you want to have a say in community issues, you've got to be subscribed to the list. ;) | 13:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maybe a blog, though. | 13:29 |
| lardman | perhaps, but to avoid any complaints you should tell them that and give them the warning on -developers and -users | 13:29 |
| Jaffa | One suggestion: in the email actually detail some of the pages which'll be deleted and have no corresponding version in the new wiki? | 13:29 |
| lardman | herding cats and all that | 13:29 |
| Jaffa | +1 lardman | 13:29 |
| Jaffa | The wiki *content* isn't a community issue if it contains end-user or developer documentation ;-) | 13:30 |
| Jaffa | The implementation of the wiki is a community issue, but not necessarily its content. | 13:30 |
| lardman | hmm, not sure about that, but best give non-community cubscribers the benfit of the doubt | 13:30 |
| Jaffa | ICBW, but - anyway - I agree. | 13:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | https://maemo.org/community/council/view/1225280197/ | 13:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and you two still owe me blogs. | 13:38 |
| lardman | who? | 13:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Who do you think. :P | 13:38 |
| lardman | can't I be let of one for providing a good idea? Pleeeeeeese | 13:39 |
| lardman | s/of/off | 13:39 |
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| Jaffa | ...and patches :-p | 13:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | You can be let off once you post one. :P | 13:39 |
| * Jaffa goes food hunting | 13:40 | |
| lardman | hmm | 13:40 |
| * lardman wonders if he can string a couple of lines together | 13:40 | |
| lardman | Jaffa: bow and arrow? | 13:42 |
| aquatix | no, raygun | 13:46 |
| Jaffa | Nope: just realised that my VMware box's clock hasn't gone back. | 13:46 |
| aquatix | much more fun | 13:46 |
| Jaffa | But I'll go to OneStop round the corner and get some Crispy Pancakes, or Supernoodles or something | 13:46 |
| lardman | with bacon I trust | 13:46 |
| lardman | and a bottle of Becks :) | 13:46 |
| * lardman wondered why it was so cold this morning - hadn't reset the clock on the central heating and a frost last night | 13:47 | |
| Jaffa | lardman: got a migraine - so no beer. | 13:47 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: look what your threats have done to the poor man! | 13:48 |
| aquatix | whisky instead, Jaffa ? | 13:48 |
| qwerty12 | "A teenager in Florida who used his 85-year-old grandmother to issue threats with a gun in a "gangsta rap" video has been jailed for 18 months" lolololol | 13:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lardman, all his troubles will go away if he writes a blog. :P | 13:50 |
| lardman | :D | 13:50 |
| lardman | are you using your Force-migrane power on him? | 13:50 |
| * GeneralAntilles plays Cheer up Charlie. | 13:51 | |
| GeneralAntilles | s/Grandpa Joe/a blog post/ | 13:51 |
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| wazd | Hello everybody | 13:59 |
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| lardman | hey wazd | 14:01 |
| wazd | Have anybody seen Kontorri in da house? I need his help( | 14:01 |
| baddu1 | hey lardman, I still got issues with the dsp | 14:01 |
| lardman | wazd: can I join metromap please | 14:01 |
| lardman | baddu1: what's up? | 14:01 |
| wazd | I have Titan theme ready for public but I have very messy issue with seekbar skinning | 14:02 |
| baddu1 | lardman: when I got this big junk of memory to be mmapped, i haven't got it to work. if i don't specify where it goes , it tries to put it to daram -> not work. when i specify a memory for that , it says tbl is full -> not work | 14:03 |
| wazd | lardman: well, I've losttouch with admin of Metromap project so it's rather frozen( | 14:03 |
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| lardman | wazd: ok, I've sent a "please can I join", will see if he comes back | 14:03 |
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| baddu1 | lardman: i tried to put it in 0x580000 and size was about 0xb000 or sth | 14:03 |
| baddu1 | s/0xb000/0xb0000 | 14:04 |
| lardman | baddu1: you used a .cmd file and a #pragma in the code to place is in your memory section? | 14:04 |
| wazd | lardman: But I have UI mockups and stuff so if you want to code something it would be great | 14:04 |
| lardman | wazd: I ported the hildon changes to the latest upstream metromap, is pretty cool | 14:04 |
| baddu1 | lardman: yep, and it tries to put it there when i use this cmd file. everything seems to be correct. if i change the size to for example 0x10000, it works | 14:05 |
| lardman | wazd: yep for sure, I also want to add GPS functionality | 14:05 |
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| baddu1 | lardman: it just seems not to accept bigger memory portions than about 0x40000 | 14:05 |
| lardman | baddu1: can I see the code & .cmd file please? | 14:05 |
| wazd | lardman: well, I think we can start a new project then | 14:05 |
| lardman | wazd: we should take over the exsiting one if it's now dormant | 14:06 |
| baddu1 | lardman: yes, i will give them to you after i get home from work :P | 14:06 |
| lardman | baddu1: cool | 14:06 |
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| wazd | lardman: I haven't got Admin rights in the garrage so I can't do anything with it | 14:06 |
| * RST38h is happy wazd and lardman have found each other =) | 14:07 | |
| lardman | baddu1: it should be possibel to map up to 16Mb of SDRAM afaik, though there's already lots of MEMORY sections mapped so you can't manage that in one section | 14:07 |
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| wazd | RST38h: xD | 14:07 |
| baddu1 | lardman: but if it complains: "tbl is full", i have seen it before. do you know what that means? | 14:07 |
| RST38h | lardman: Don't tell me you are adding GPS functionality to metromap | 14:07 |
| lardman | X-Fade: what does one do about dormant projects? Not sure if it is yet, will see if I get a response from the admin | 14:07 |
| lardman | RST38h: yes, I thought it would be useful | 14:07 |
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| lardman | baddu1: yes | 14:08 |
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| X-Fade | lardman: ping admin, ping admin again, post to -developers, if no response -> take over? | 14:08 |
| lardman | baddu1: there aren't many TLBs free, so if you try to map a large region which is less than a whole large page it tries to use lots of little pages and lots of TLBs | 14:08 |
| lardman | X-Fade: ok, will do | 14:08 |
| wazd | Does anybody have Kontorri's IM contacts? I want to release Titan today :( | 14:08 |
| X-Fade | lardman: I'm just making that up, feel free to do it your way :) | 14:09 |
| lardman | baddu1: I don't have the numbers in front of me, but a large page is 0x100000, a small one is 64k bytes | 14:09 |
| baddu1 | lardman: ok, good to know. do you how big the pages are, so what could be a good ... ok you answered already :) | 14:09 |
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| lardman | so 1MB or 64kB (bytes) | 14:09 |
| lardman | see the avs_kernelcfg.cmd file, it maps some large MEMORY sections in a single TLB, or look at dmesg just after boot | 14:10 |
| wazd | Or maybe there is another Theme Jedi in here?) | 14:10 |
| baddu1 | lardman: so it should work if i map 0x100000 size of memory instead of 0xb0000 | 14:10 |
| lardman | yes; you should have seen an error in dmesg about lacking TLBs of course | 14:11 |
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| lardman | just that I thought the entire task load failed if a sharedmemory mapping failed | 14:12 |
| baddu1 | yes i did, but it shouldn't happen when mapping 0x100000 ? | 14:12 |
| lardman | no, that or 0x10000 should be fine | 14:12 |
| lardman | (64kB) | 14:12 |
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| baddu1 | yes, i'll try that. | 14:12 |
| lardman | cool | 14:12 |
| lardman | I'd still be interested to see your code later on :) | 14:13 |
| baddu1 | you'll be shocked about how horribly it looks right now :P | 14:13 |
| lardman | that's ok, I know the feeling :) | 14:13 |
| lardman | RST38h: re gps, for on the surface, finding the closest tube stop, not for underground! ;) | 14:14 |
| baddu1 | just have tried to get it to compile and then to be able to load and see some prints that it's actually loaded and running | 14:14 |
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| RST38h | lardman: ah | 14:16 |
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| lardman | qwerty12_N800: is your ISP "be there" or "bet here" ? ;) | 14:17 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | lardman, lol, be there. i'm on o2 actually and o2 seem to be in the isp business with be | 14:18 |
| lardman | :) | 14:18 |
| * wazd looking for a spell to summon Kontorri | 14:19 | |
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| lcuk | wazd, i found kontorri was quite attracted to beer | 14:20 |
| lardman | wazd: personal email via garage project? | 14:20 |
| lcuk | \o afternoon ppl | 14:20 |
| JamieBennett | afternoon | 14:20 |
| qwerty12_N800 | afternoon | 14:20 |
| lardman | hmm, doesn't time fly | 14:21 |
| wazd | hey there | 14:21 |
| woglinde | hi lcuk | 14:21 |
| wazd | There's no faster way than e-mail?( | 14:22 |
| lcuk | is it snowy where you lot are? | 14:22 |
| lardman | no, reasonably sunny down south | 14:22 |
| johnx | nope, 16C here | 14:22 |
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| lcuk | cos i hated this morning - it should be illegal to even try to snow before at least november | 14:22 |
| johnx | and it's night time :) | 14:23 |
| qwerty12_N800 | not in london :( | 14:23 |
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| lcuk | it was only a smattering, but then it half defrosted before freezing solid on my car \@/ | 14:23 |
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| wazd | well, it's rather cold in Moscow, but no snow) | 14:23 |
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| lcuk | heh, i should really thank my blessings, but manchester feels more like the artic sometimes | 14:24 |
| lardman | that's 'cos you spend so long standing outside smoking ;) | 14:24 |
| lcuk | heh, its not that part that bothers me | 14:24 |
| wazd | I should rename "seek bar" into "sick bar" | 14:25 |
| * lcuk keeps pondering something really daft | 14:25 | |
| lcuk | im not even sure i should mention it cos u lot will think im mental | 14:25 |
| johnx | is it crazier than getting 30fps fullscreen updates on the n8x0 with no tearing? | 14:26 |
| pixies | someone speak Portuguese? | 14:26 |
| lcuk | heh, its making use of what ive built so far | 14:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | pixies, probably in #canola if nobody shows up here. | 14:26 |
| johnx | lcuk, soooo...lcuks' emacs? | 14:27 |
| lcuk | if anyone ever played with the original playtest i released it had a bit to create arbitary rectangles - just drag and draw | 14:27 |
| lcuk | no johnx, sillier | 14:27 |
| pixies | GeneralAntilles: tanks.. | 14:27 |
| lcuk | im sick of porting all my working code from vb to c, i might grab a basic interpreter and add on a nice gui designer to it (or use a different core language but allow vb form/control files to be used | 14:27 |
| Jaffa | That's not that crazy. I saw a project at IBM which some interns were doing which took VB and turned it into SWT Java | 14:28 |
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| lardman | http://gambas.sourceforge.net/ | 14:28 |
| lardman | make Python the backend language and I'll be happy | 14:29 |
| lcuk | jaffa - if i can just bring in the raw form definitions it gets over my current hump of drawing what i want, then having to code it up | 14:29 |
| * wazd have found some ancient script with word "Kontorri" | 14:29 | |
| aquatix | lardman: hm, that looks useful | 14:29 |
| lardman | wazd: kagu on Garage, or email him via maemo.org? | 14:30 |
| Fatal | hmmm, SANDISK MICROSDHC 4 GB, with adapter to "Secure Digital", ( SDSDQ-4096-E12M ), is that compatible with n810? | 14:30 |
| * lcuk fights with vnc to copy&paste that great link | 14:30 | |
| lcuk | lardman, thanks :) i think ive seen that before but that was a long time before i had linux handheld | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fatal, well, the card is, but you need a MiniSD -> MicroSD adaptor. | 14:31 |
| johnx | Fatal, does it have a micro-sd to mini-sd adapter ? | 14:31 |
| lcuk | ill see how far i get this weekend with making some basic form ui editor | 14:31 |
| wazd | lardman: Well, I think it's the only way( | 14:31 |
| lcuk | once i do that i can see what else is needed | 14:31 |
| aquatix | Fatal: if not, you can get such an adapter for cheap at dealextreme.com for example | 14:31 |
| Fatal | GeneralAntilles / johnx: thanks, looks like there's a adapter bundled | 14:31 |
| * aquatix saw a 16GB microsd today | 14:31 | |
| aquatix | Fatal: yeah, but to normal SD format | 14:32 |
| aquatix | not to minisd | 14:32 |
| Fatal | aaaaah, that's another standard, ok | 14:32 |
| lardman | wazd: I'd be interested to see your ui mockups, etc., for metromap | 14:32 |
| Fatal | crap. thanks aquatix | 14:32 |
| aquatix | well, other size mainly | 14:32 |
| Fatal | mmm | 14:32 |
| * lcuk is also removing himself from -users and -community :) | 14:32 | |
| aquatix | Fatal: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7184 | 14:32 |
| Fatal | 8GB cards work aswell btw? | 14:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, why? | 14:33 |
| johnx | Fatal, any card that physically fits will work | 14:33 |
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| aquatix | Fatal: yeah, i have an 8GB sandisk microsd with such an adapter | 14:33 |
| Fatal | sweet, thanks all | 14:33 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, im not that great at explaining what i mean and ive seen ppl having to react to the discussion in defensive ways which shouldnt be needed | 14:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, -users, sure, but why -community? | 14:34 |
| lcuk | i responded to the user thinking it was someone in -dev, on my level and understanding | 14:35 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: I agreed entirely with your stuff on -users, btw | 14:35 |
| lcuk | i normally had -users skipping my inbox, but this one kept up cos it mentioned liqbase | 14:35 |
| lcuk | i just didnt notice.. | 14:36 |
| * GeneralAntilles would rather lcuk continue contributing his input to -users. | 14:36 | |
| GeneralAntilles | We wouldn't want to get to the point where it's just Mark and Darius spewing their FUD. | 14:36 |
| * Jaffa too. | 14:36 | |
| * lcuk thought he had cocked up | 14:36 | |
| Jaffa | I didn't see anything which was particularly targetted at the wrong level | 14:37 |
| RST38h | Who is Mark? Has Darius got company? | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mark Haury | 14:37 |
| RST38h | googling... | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | He's more sane, but loves logical fallacies. | 14:37 |
| Fatal | ha, crap, the stuff available where I intend to buy only have -> SD adapters, the one bundled with both SD and miniSD adapter is out of stock, yay | 14:37 |
| RST38h | ok. | 14:38 |
| RST38h | 1. Buy microsd card | 14:38 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, actually that would be great, we could have maemo-community for flamewars and maemo-secret-treehouse for the rest of the "club" :D | 14:38 |
| RST38h | 2. Buy ANY cheap ($5) microsd card with minisd adapter included | 14:38 |
| lcuk | 2. steal underpants | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | maemo-users you mean. | 14:38 |
| RST38h | 3. Connect, insert, enjoy | 14:38 |
| johnx | s/community/users/ | 14:38 |
| infobot | johnx meant: GeneralAntilles, actually that would be great, we could have maemo-users for flamewars and maemo-secret-treehouse for the rest of the "club" :D | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, I actually had this happen in another community I'm involved with. | 14:38 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, isn't that what I said? | 14:38 |
| johnx | ah, if only s/ provided real ret-con | 14:39 |
| Jaffa | :) | 14:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | All the cool cats went off and started their own private forum away from the regular one. | 14:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Worked out pretty well, actually. . . . | 14:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Time to start the cabal? :P | 14:40 |
| Fatal | RST38h: true, I feel extremly silly now :) | 14:41 |
| * lcuk wont accept the subscription cancellation, thx guys | 14:42 | |
| lcuk | bbl | 14:42 |
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| Fatal | and sdhc support requires a kernel upgrade right? or has that changed since last year? | 14:45 |
| sampo_ | hmm how can i lock my application way that no one else logged in user can not change my application details? on maemo.org/downloads | 14:45 |
| RST38h | what? | 14:45 |
| sampo_ | or is this just maemo.org bug | 14:45 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: You can't. | 14:45 |
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| wazd | Oh hell, I think i've found the problem!) | 14:46 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: It is sort of a wiki type application. | 14:46 |
| sampo_ | X-Fade: hmm ok | 14:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fatal, SDHC has been officially supported since Summer 2007. | 14:46 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Fatal, For N810/N800 with OS2008, no custom kernel is needed. | 14:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | (and a while before that by the community) | 14:46 |
| sampo_ | X-Fade:how long is the lockup time if someone(unwanted person) edits my app page? | 14:46 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: Why do you want to do that? | 14:47 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: 2 hours orso. | 14:47 |
| Fatal | GeneralAntilles / qwerty12_N800: thanks | 14:47 |
| sampo_ | X-Fade: okey | 14:47 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: until he/she saves or cancels. | 14:47 |
| X-Fade | *unless | 14:47 |
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| sampo_ | X-Fade: so it says "object locked by xxx" for 2 hours after he/she logs out ? | 14:48 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: No, if he/she does nothing and stays on that page. | 14:49 |
| * GeneralAntilles turns on some lights to help heat up the apartment. | 14:49 | |
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| johnx | GeneralAntilles, you have a G5 right? how is that not producing enough heat? | 14:50 |
| sampo_ | X-Fade: still no solution for maemo.org being so slow all the time? | 14:50 |
| aquatix | Fatal: that dealextreme.com link is very cool btw | 14:50 |
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| aquatix | as they don't ask shipping | 14:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, cause it's 29°F outside and the insulation isn't great. | 14:50 |
| X-Fade | sampo_: Multiple, but not atm. | 14:50 |
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| * aquatix loves dealextreme for their nice collection of gadgets and prices | 14:51 | |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, eep! is it usually that cold this time of year? | 14:51 |
| sampo_ | X-Fade: ok | 14:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | johnx, yeah, it gets fairly cold here compared to the rest of the state | 14:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | A little bellow normal | 14:52 |
| RST38h | it is *already* 29oF? | 14:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Cold front | 14:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Should be back into the 50/70s range by the end of the week. | 14:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woo, Carman is gonna use Display-Name and Upgrade-Description. | 14:53 |
| RST38h | oh | 14:54 |
| johnx | ouch, my n800 battery is really starting to go south after 1.5 years of use :/ | 14:56 |
| *** vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes | 14:57 | |
| * melmoth always wondered if it s better to keep a n810 plugged it, or to wait untill its battery is emtpy befroe recharchnig it | 15:00 | |
| johnx | I'm pretty sure the former | 15:00 |
| lardman | I think continual topups is best | 15:00 |
| lardman | down to ~80% and then charge, or so I remember reading | 15:00 |
| * melmoth re plug his n810 :) | 15:02 | |
| johnx | li-ion batteries don't like being discharged, nimh and nicd need to be discharged all the way or they develop "memory effects" or somesuch | 15:03 |
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| ||cw | I have left my 770 plugged in all the time when not using it and it still gets a good 3 hours active use per charge | 15:04 |
| ||cw | I don't it in battery much though anymore | 15:04 |
| johnx | mine's gotten a lot worse since I've been draining it most pretty much daily :/ | 15:05 |
| * GeneralAntilles likes the direction Quim's proposal for h-a-m may be taking. | 15:06 | |
| aquatix | didn't li-ion batteries have limited cycles too? | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, NiMH has no memory | 15:06 |
| aquatix | but generally, after about 1.5 to 2 years, li-ion starts to go south anyway | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | NiCD really only has a memory when you're talking about more than one cell. | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | melmoth, the argument for not leaving laptops plugged in all the time is heat | 15:07 |
| johnx | ah, interesting | 15:07 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: Have you seen my response? It doesn't seem to have come though the list yet | 15:07 |
| johnx | I grew up in the li-ion generation I guess :/ | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | but since the tablets put out way less heat than a laptop, there's really no issue leaving them plugged in. | 15:07 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: i take my laptop's battery out when on AC | 15:07 |
| ||cw | it's not that much heat, the charger is intelligent | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, well, so did I, but I did some pretty dead investigation into battery technology a few years back. ;) | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, li-ions degrade significantly faster when they're hot | 15:07 |
| aquatix | yeah | 15:08 |
| aquatix | so that's why i take it out | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Even more so when you toss in the heat of charging. | 15:08 |
| aquatix | when on about 40% charge | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, yeah, I saw it. | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, sounds like more incentive to tie git in a little more closely with Garage. | 15:08 |
| aquatix | optimum shelving charge of li-ion seems to be 40% | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right | 15:09 |
| johnx | which explains why my second-hand notebook's battery died from 3 years living in an 80F server room... | 15:09 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: yes exactly | 15:09 |
| lardman | lunch time | 15:09 |
| aquatix | johnx: 3yr is old for a battery :) | 15:09 |
| *** lardman is now known as lardman|lunch | 15:09 | |
| GeneralAntilles | If somebody wants to put a little TLC into: https://wiki.maemo.org/Batteries | 15:09 |
| johnx | aquatix, it's 7 years old now, but it died around 6 technically | 15:09 |
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| aquatix | interestingly, i generally use a complete charge from a li-ion battery before recharging and that seems to be fine | 15:11 |
| johnx | well, without another point of reference it's hard to compare... | 15:12 |
| aquatix | yeah :/ | 15:12 |
| aquatix | charge early, charge often | 15:12 |
| aquatix | sounds like an ideal OSS battery ;) | 15:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 15:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | New battery tech would jump the mobile market years ahead. | 15:13 |
| johnx | heh | 15:13 |
| aquatix | maybe add that if kept in a refridgerator, it's advisable to keep them dry ;) | 15:13 |
| johnx | instead we're just getting devices with smaller chips/pcbs so that they can fit bigger batteries | 15:13 |
| aquatix | there are some interesting new fuel cells | 15:13 |
| johnx | when I first saw the n800 I almost laughed at how much of the internal space is battery | 15:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 15:14 |
| johnx | ...and my ideal personal server would be a beagle/overo hanging off of a 9cell laptop battery | 15:15 |
| *** k-s is now known as k-s[AWAY] | 15:16 | |
| * GeneralAntilles will need to write up a PSA about the package categories for developers. | 15:16 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Overo's got 256MB RAM | 15:16 |
| JamieBennett | beagle server with 4 usb 1TB drives and a hub, mmmmm | 15:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Too bad it's got no DSP nor PowerVR | 15:16 |
| X-Fade | Go GeneralAntilles, Go GeneralAntilles! :) | 15:16 |
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| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, well, I was talking to Eduardo this morning about Carman and he wasn't clear on when to change the category (since communication may end up being deprecated) | 15:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hopefully the i18n for h-a-m will be done quickly, there'll likely be some delay. | 15:17 |
| lcuk | carmen should be in app/topgear | 15:19 |
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| RST38h | Motorola potentially lays off 2/3 of workforce and switches to Android | 15:27 |
| woglinde | RST38h: *g* | 15:27 |
| johnx | "so how many eggs should we put in this basket?" "ALL OF THEM!" | 15:27 |
| woglinde | google forget to put a fixed libprce in | 15:28 |
| * aquatix makes some scrambled eggs | 15:28 | |
| Stskeeps | johnx: words often spoken while drunk | 15:28 |
| johnx | but really, everyone seems to have a lot of hatred for motorola's inhouse OS so I guess this is probably a good thing? | 15:29 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, pretty much what I was going for :) | 15:29 |
| Stskeeps | motorola phones are really awkward anyway :P | 15:30 |
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| * qwerty12_N800 *hates* moto's. cant even get uiq3 right | 15:30 | |
| johnx | whoever decided new electronics shouldn't have tactile feedback because that would make them look "uncool" needs to get kneecapped | 15:31 |
| RST38h | johnx: Inhouse os STAYS | 15:31 |
| johnx | RST38h, so what was that 2/3 doing? | 15:32 |
| RST38h | johnx: They are keeping Android (smartphones), WinMobile (business) and their-own-crap (cheap phones) | 15:32 |
| RST38h | johnx: Apparently, Symbian and Linux | 15:32 |
| johnx | I guess they don't want to compete with themselves on the low end | 15:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hrm | 15:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's what we need | 15:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/Virtual_memory | 15:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody write that up. | 15:32 |
| Stskeeps | wiki not answering. | 15:33 |
| Stskeeps | or bloody show | 15:33 |
| Stskeeps | slow | 15:33 |
| RST38h | johnx: They are desperate. Too many developers, too many projects | 15:33 |
| RST38h | johnx: Not enough return on each phone | 15:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, it's always slow. | 15:33 |
| johnx | looks like some other low-end phones in emerging markets will be running android (which I totally called) | 15:33 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: idea for article/blog entry.. "The case for Maemo", why maemo should exist and what it can be and the qualities of the platform and so on | 15:34 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:34 |
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| Stskeeps | (in the current market and such) | 15:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, you want to do a guest column? | 15:36 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: way too much in my head these days so i'm going step by step in trying to have something to base my assumptions/ideas on :P | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or it also sounds like something Jaffa might do. ;) | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Good god the degausser in this old SGI Trinitron seems to get louder every year. | 15:38 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Not sure about it - the required hw specs are a bit high afaik | 15:40 |
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| lbt | hi GeneralAntilles... are you going to add something like 'People + Information' or 'Life Stuff' to the category list? | 15:46 |
| lbt | <grin> just saw the SGI degauss comment in the backlog | 15:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, well, it had been discussed a bit. | 15:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd generally file "PIM stuff" into Office, myself. | 15:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa? | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | Agreed. | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | Tim's just asked the same question. | 15:48 |
| johnx | maybe s/office/productivity/ | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | No | 15:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, well, trying to keep consistency with upstream. | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | Or rather, I don't think so ;-) | 15:48 |
| johnx | just a thought | 15:48 |
| lbt | And if I'm not a drone? | 15:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | NO, JOHNX, YOU IDIOT!!!1 | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | Tim asked if that was still on the table: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories - it is, of course, as the labels haven't been decided. | 15:49 |
| lbt | say I'm a non-office worker? | 15:49 |
| johnx | lbt, you're a drone. Don't disillusion yourself. :D | 15:49 |
| lbt | not at home | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | lbt: "Office" doesn't mean you work in an office. It's office supplies etc. | 15:49 |
| lbt | well, SWMBO may not agree | 15:49 |
| lbt | Ah, so a calendar is office supplies | 15:49 |
| lbt | gotcha | 15:49 |
| * lbt sees mud | 15:49 | |
| lbt | I guess IRC is office supplies to | 15:50 |
| lbt | too | 15:50 |
| Jaffa | Anyway, a) labels don't need to be decided yet - we're still defining the categories; b) I think "Productivity" as a label is even less useful than "Office" | 15:50 |
| Jaffa | lbt: eh? | 15:50 |
| johnx | I'll spew out a couple more random thoughts, feel free to shoot down: utilities/pim office/productivity/pim | 15:50 |
| lbt | frankly freedesktop are wrong :) | 15:50 |
| lbt | Jaffa: I'm suggesting that there is a category for humans | 15:50 |
| johnx | lbt, well I buy calendars at office depot...sooo | 15:50 |
| lbt | yeah, yeah :) | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | ^^^^ my point | 15:51 |
| lbt | I understand why - but it is wrong :) | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | lbt: You install people through an application manager? | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | Or are you trolling? | 15:51 |
| lbt | I do | 15:51 |
| lbt | no, I'm very serious. | 15:51 |
| lbt | being light about it though | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | Give an example of a sodding application, not some nebulous "oh, what about a people app" | 15:51 |
| X-Fade | For me, pim would go in office. That is how I would arrange it, but that is a personal preference. | 15:52 |
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| lbt | http://pastebin.com/m596627ac | 15:52 |
| johnx | email, IM, PIM, facebook (to play devil's advocate) | 15:52 |
| lbt | I think 'Office' should be translated to "My Life" for a consumer device | 15:52 |
| johnx | now they could fit in other places too, and in fact it *barely matters since people will figure it out in like 10 minutes at most then remember* | 15:52 |
| lbt | johnx that's bad UI design | 15:53 |
| lbt | admit it | 15:53 |
| johnx | lbt, there is much worse UI design to fix, so let's work on that | 15:53 |
| lbt | the iPhone doesn't have 'Office' | 15:53 |
| lbt | and I've never seen an iPhone | 15:53 |
| wazd | lbt: Office=My life - so sad( | 15:53 |
| Jaffa | IM is user/network; facebook is a website - there are no facebook applications; a status updater could go in user/utilities; email and PIM fit in user/office in my world view | 15:53 |
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| lbt | I know - it's like when they let users have their own PC and shut down the mainframes | 15:53 |
| glass | facebook provides rss for updates | 15:54 |
| Jaffa | lbt: "My Life"? That's a vague, 90s category with no usefulness. Why is a word processor "My Life"? | 15:54 |
| lbt | it isn't | 15:54 |
| Jaffa | glass: yes, so there's an RSS reader | 15:54 |
| lbt | I carefully explained that | 15:54 |
| lbt | it is actually "people I know about" | 15:54 |
| lbt | and communications | 15:54 |
| lbt | and planning | 15:54 |
| lbt | not 'content' - which is where word processing comes in | 15:54 |
| glass | word processor is a office app, as in ms office suite, implanted in peoples mind | 15:55 |
| RST38h | My life as a wordprocessor sounds depressing | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | lbt: So you're *not* suggesting that "Office" == "My Life for a consumer device"; you're advocating an *additional* "My Life" category which contains... photos of my son (he's my life), any application I need for anything I do for my life. | 15:55 |
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| lbt | sort of | 15:55 |
| wazd | word processor is, to begin with, a word processor) | 15:55 |
| lbt | but not content | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | lbt: You can't categorise apps on whether they're 'communications' or 'content'. You define them based on a higher level taxonomy. | 15:55 |
| wazd | I can write anything wherever I want | 15:55 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Just rename Office to Orifice and that will cover both word processors and PIMs | 15:55 |
| lbt | indeed | 15:55 |
| johnx | lbt, anyways, as it has been said, these aren't necessarily the user facing names | 15:55 |
| lbt | and the taxonomy is contact | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | If you're suggesting that split, it'd need a whole new set of categories - not just one additional one | 15:55 |
| lbt | contacts | 15:55 |
| RST38h | jaffa; Although I do unserstand that it may be overly general | 15:56 |
| Jaffa | :) | 15:56 |
| lbt | yes - the taxonomy isn't orthogonal as it is | 15:56 |
| wazd | It's not Microsoft (hope I'll not be banned for this word xD) Office :) | 15:56 |
| lbt | I am suggesting a category to do with "Me" | 15:56 |
| RST38h | Who said there has to be a complete taxonomy? | 15:56 |
| lbt | planning stuff: calendar | 15:56 |
| lbt | arranging stuff: comms (email, irc, voip, address book) | 15:57 |
| Jaffa | lbt: That's fine. Then you need to suggest a whole new set of categories, because "me" doesn't fit in with ones structured around type of application; rather than relationship of application's use with user. | 15:57 |
| RST38h | Why not use statistical division principle: as soon as there is >10% of apps in a category that can be split off into a new one, make a new category | 15:57 |
| johnx | RST38h, because that makes packaging a nightmare? | 15:57 |
| wazd | I think categories should be named by action they do | 15:57 |
| RST38h | johnx: It doesn't: I do not suggest tocreate new categories on daily basis | 15:58 |
| lbt | Jaffa: I agree - but #freedesktop has been dead so there is no interest | 15:58 |
| RST38h | wazd: As in "Work" and "Crash"? | 15:58 |
| wazd | Like "Planning", "Writing","Counting","Chating" and so on | 15:58 |
| lbt | I think this is important - hence the msgs | 15:58 |
| johnx | RST38h, so what happens to existing apps? repackaging? | 15:58 |
| lbt | well, we discussed tag based | 15:58 |
| RST38h | johnx: Well, once a year General bugs people about changing categories or it is done automatically in Extras | 15:58 |
| lbt | so that allows the 'traditional' structure to exist alongside | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | lbt: It wouldn't need to be anything to do with freedesktop. My suggestion was to base the categories on freedesktop. Your suggestion isn't. Add a new section to Task:Package_categories which is logical and self-consistent and it can be discussed. | 15:58 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: Freedesktop category list is somewhat muddy | 15:59 |
| lbt | I was going to challenge freedesktop to update their categories | 15:59 |
| * GeneralAntilles laughs maniacally. | 15:59 | |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Unless there are compelling reasons to use it... | 15:59 |
| lbt | indeed | 15:59 |
| Jaffa | lbt: And the conclusion was it wasn't viable, because no-one'll code it. | 15:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/midgard-data/snippets/karma_plugins/itt.php?root=maemo2midgard&view=log | 15:59 |
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| RST38h | hehehe | 16:00 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Yes, we're talking about scale.. | 16:00 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: perhaps it is; it's compelling because it works on environments which have much greater exposure, many more applications and a whole lot of usability testing behind them. | 16:00 |
| lbt | I feel that for consumers/people/humans (ie not geeks) then a more 'me' centric area is good | 16:00 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, heh...that means I actually have karma now :) | 16:00 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: sqrt($thanks) * modifier seems reasonable. | 16:00 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: That's great! We don't have to copy freedesktop if it doesn't fit. Actually make a concrete suggestion apart from one more category, in a new section of the wiki page. | 16:00 |
| X-Fade | Giving 8000 karma for 1000 thanks seems a bit much ;) | 16:00 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I do not see how this makes the set of category names compelling though | 16:01 |
| lbt | I wanted to chat - sorry you're in a bad mood | 16:01 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: it is bunch of strings, you know... | 16:01 |
| johnx | lbt, I'll play devil's advocate :) | 16:01 |
| johnx | lbt, what do you see as other categories? | 16:01 |
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| lbt | one sec | 16:01 |
| lbt | dialing into a conference | 16:02 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: think i'm most afraid of regarding the whole trying to make maemo better and reconstruct and make upstream etc better, is that it'll just result in endless bikeshed discussions | 16:03 |
| lbt | johnx: I actually feel the coverage is pretty good | 16:03 |
| lbt | and I wanted to see a 'Me' area to pull in the communication and planning apps | 16:04 |
| johnx | lbt, so where's the line between me and office? or me and network? | 16:04 |
| lbt | office is, in my mind, about creating and editing content | 16:04 |
| lbt | no real overlap | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, sooo, that'd give me 37 karma points for ~1400 thanks? | 16:04 |
| lbt | except that outlook is an office app... | 16:04 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: * modifier. | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Suggestions for the modifier? | 16:05 |
| lbt | network, otoh, is very close to comms | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: 4? | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | As a baseline, I am (by about 200 thanks at the time of this writing) the person with the most thanks on itT. | 16:05 |
| lbt | but it also covers web, rss, wireshark | 16:05 |
| lbt | and wifi etc | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's about 1 years worth of accumulation. | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: That will at least give a reasonable amount? | 16:05 |
| lbt | so I think of NW is semi-physical | 16:06 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Same for number of posts. | 16:06 |
| lbt | make sense johnx? | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks should be weighted much more heavily than posts. | 16:06 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: That definately needs a sqrt. | 16:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | You can accumulate a lot of posts spewing mouth diarrhea | 16:06 |
| johnx | lbt, so network as "interacting with objects" vs "interacting with people" | 16:06 |
| lbt | OK - yes | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks are other users affirming the value of your posts. | 16:06 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: True. | 16:07 |
| lbt | the area I propose covers applications managing information I have about people, including me and my friends and colleagues. It's probably the most frequently accessed menu for 'normal' people. | 16:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'll say it was a _lot_ of work accumulating that many thanks. ;) | 16:07 |
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| lbt | did you click the pastebin link? | 16:08 |
| johnx | sorry, not yet | 16:08 |
| * johnx clicks | 16:08 | |
| lbt | nb - that is supposed to be my thinking, not a solution | 16:09 |
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| johnx | so not really "me" so much as "personal and social" | 16:09 |
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| * GeneralAntilles flys apart trying to follow 3 conversations and cook. | 16:09 | |
| Jaffa | lbt: I *really* don't think you can add a 'me' category to the freedesktop ones at http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories and have it have any form of internal consistency and avoid ambiguity and confusion. A whole new set of categories would be needed. Both developers and users should be clear on what goes into a section. More sections means more possibility of confusion, but they al | 16:10 |
| lbt | yes, | 16:10 |
| Jaffa | lbt: ...enough to ensure that not too many apps are in each section that they become unmanageable. | 16:10 |
| lbt | Jaffa - sorry about the 'Me' / 'My Life' - don't read to much into them. That thought drove me to discuss this | 16:10 |
| lbt | as johnx says "personal and social" | 16:11 |
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| johnx | I'm tending to agree with lbt here for the most part. I don't think there's much ambiguous overlap | 16:11 |
| lbt | is equally valid (and, if you think about it, is also 'me') | 16:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, how much is one mailing list post worth? | 16:11 |
| lbt | johnx :) | 16:11 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I think 1 orso. | 16:11 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles/X-Fade: the mailing lists are higher "quality", IMHO, than an ITT post. | 16:12 |
| lcuk | how much does an orso convert to? | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: We need to do that discussion some time later ;) | 16:12 |
| Jaffa | :) | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | Let's focus on categories now. | 16:12 |
| Jaffa | lbt/johnx: So "Personal & Social" would encompass what example applications? | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, but what about an itT Thank? | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | I really like to have a plan before the end of the month ;) | 16:12 |
| johnx | lbt, what about having it under utilities though? | 16:12 |
| lbt | see pastebin | 16:12 |
| lbt | they are 'bitty' things - clock | 16:13 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: A post + 2 thanks == 1 mailing list post. A post + 5 thanks ~= 2 mailing list posts? | 16:13 |
| lbt | 'teabag timer' | 16:13 |
| johnx | lbt, utilities you mean? | 16:13 |
| lbt | indeed | 16:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, I don't have a feeling for a good baseline for karma counts | 16:13 |
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| lbt | that is the traditional stuff found in there | 16:13 |
| johnx | what about utilities/personal and utilities/social though? | 16:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | and as the weighting seems to be in flux anyway. . . . | 16:13 |
| johnx | a utility or tool for handling personal info | 16:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | sqrt(karma) * 4 works for me for now. | 16:14 |
| lbt | as I said - one of the most clicked menus | 16:14 |
| lbt | so should be top level | 16:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I think we should come back to the discussion later and discuss every piece of karma as a whole | 16:14 |
| Jaffa | lbt: we're talking about package management primarily. And one menu with everything in isn't very useful. | 16:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Because you really can't weight an individual piece without relating it to other pieces. | 16:14 |
| lbt | I feel for a device like the NIT | 16:14 |
| lbt | it isn't everything | 16:14 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: Your pastebin seems also out of date given it talks about lots of different categories AFAICT when now there's a suggestion of a "Personal & Social" single category. | 16:15 |
| johnx | Jaffa, well it's 5 minutes out of date | 16:15 |
| lbt | no, it talks about ideas :) | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. So, now I'm trying to take it forward constructively. | 16:15 |
| lbt | it isn't a proposal - I wanted to float and discuss | 16:15 |
| lbt | the philosophy is clear to me | 16:16 |
| Jaffa | If a "Personal & Social" category doesn't overcomplicate the base on top of freedesktop, what'd go in it? I'm not *challenging* you, I'm trying to draw out something concrete. | 16:16 |
| Jaffa | Philosophy doesn't help package maintainers, i18n translaters or users too much ;-) | 16:16 |
| johnx | Jaffa, PIM, IM, email, | 16:16 |
| lbt | no, it helps determine decision rules though | 16:16 |
| lbt | yes, + calendar | 16:16 |
| lbt | the big 'personal and social' | 16:17 |
| Jaffa | johnx: So if IM & email - why not RSS reader or web browser? | 16:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | email is network. . . . | 16:17 |
| johnx | Jaffa, the theme is human interaction | 16:17 |
| lbt | I considered them | 16:17 |
| lbt | yes | 16:17 |
| Jaffa | So IRC client, as well. | 16:17 |
| johnx | right | 16:17 |
| johnx | falls under IM to me :) | 16:18 |
| lbt | which should share 'contacts' | 16:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | "Personal & Social" mostly seems to serve to overlap other categories | 16:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is bad. | 16:18 |
| * Jaffa primarily uses his web browser for dealing with JIRA (people & work) or email (GMail). | 16:18 | |
| * lcuk thinks this is why freedesktop never got a strict definition ;) | 16:18 | |
| GeneralAntilles | The category delineations should be as clear-cut as possible. | 16:18 |
| * Jaffa uses his RSS reader to read stuff *people* have written & published. | 16:18 | |
| lbt | Jaffa - they are online tools | 16:18 |
| lbt | I'd "allow" hyperlinks in personal and social | 16:19 |
| lcuk | what happens to packages that encapsulate multiple categroies? | 16:19 |
| Jaffa | So is an email client, an IRC client, a Facebook status updater | 16:19 |
| lbt | eg? | 16:19 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Yes, but so does your email client. | 16:19 |
| johnx | the key word in "stuff people have written" is "stuff" | 16:19 |
| Jaffa | lbt: You might, but that doesn't make sense | 16:19 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Indeed. This is why I'm yet to be convinced about "Personal & Social" not overlapping. | 16:19 |
| RST38h | johnx: "stuff" relates to other products of human life cycles as well | 16:19 |
| lbt | Jaffa: I know - hyperlinks don't live in the main menu | 16:19 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Or the Application Manager. | 16:19 |
| lbt | should thay? | 16:19 |
| Jaffa | So it's a non sequiter | 16:19 |
| lbt | sorry, confused now | 16:20 |
| RST38h | johnx: can we have "shit" category, really? | 16:20 |
| johnx | RST38h, only if there are more than 10% of apps that deal with shit | 16:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, that'd be "Other" | 16:20 |
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| lbt | we have - the translation is 'utilities' | 16:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, the reality is that "My Life/Me/Personal & Social" overlaps rather uselessly with other categories. | 16:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | What is the goal here? To add some life to the sterility of Office? | 16:21 |
| Jaffa | lbt: This is a discussion in identifying the categorisation of packages in the Application Manager. There is a thought that these *may* also then lead into the top-level menu (so a user accesses the application at run time through the same category they found it in the App Manager); but that's a /different/ discussion. | 16:21 |
| RST38h | johnx: Ohm don't you worry... | 16:21 |
| lbt | GeneralAntilles: the reverse | 16:21 |
| RST38h | johnx: there is plenty | 16:21 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I would say it pulls things together and lightens up other categories | 16:21 |
| RST38h | General: Actually, "other" != "shit" | 16:22 |
| lbt | Jaffa: no, I think they should be related | 16:22 |
| lbt | strongly | 16:22 |
| RST38h | General: because you may have lots of high quality specialized apps | 16:22 |
| johnx | lbt, well, that's not this discussion. let's stay focused | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | Indeed, and I largely agree. *HOwever*, the current focus is the packages. | 16:22 |
| lbt | I use the same logic for both so I don't mind | 16:22 |
| johnx | the key part of im and email is interacting with people, not that it happens to use a network to do it | 16:23 |
| lbt | johnx yes | 16:23 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: did you see this? http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/10/few-thoughs-on-openness.html | 16:23 |
| lbt | requirement, not solution | 16:23 |
| lbt | goal thinking | 16:23 |
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| johnx | just like the key part in contacts is that it's info about people. if that info was on a network vs on local storage should that affect where you find it? | 16:23 |
| * lcuk thinks this whole discussion has taken place many many times: the trove software map from sourceforge is carefully considered and breaksup software quite nicely | 16:23 | |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: no, I missed it. | 16:23 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, it is on the planet. But showed up somewhere in between. | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | Bah | 16:24 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: ironically, he is raising the same issue I raised here on few occassions | 16:24 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: "open sourced" does not mean "being worked on" =( | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Sorry, you've changed your argument again I think. If it's goal seeking then the rest of the categories don't make sense in that philosophy. If it's just to differentiate some category of apps which a user wouldn't expect to find in one of the existing categories, that's a different thin. | 16:25 |
| * Stskeeps -thinks- he would be contributing to maemo if it was open from the start.. not sure though | 16:25 | |
| Stskeeps | would it be as fun then? :P | 16:25 |
| lbt | lcuk: so, in the trove where do I look for 'contact manager'? It's a database right? It lives on my desktop? I use it for VOIP? To contact my Enterprise? Using a Network? | 16:26 |
| Stskeeps | than one where you don't have to go through loops and hoops and regulations and such | 16:26 |
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| GeneralAntilles | https://garage.maemo.org/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=18 | 16:26 |
| Jaffa | lbt: But the Contact Manager is a) not an external package; b) an integral part of the system. | 16:26 |
| lbt | Jaffa: what is the consistent and orthogonal taxonomy being used? | 16:26 |
| lbt | there isn't one. | 16:27 |
| johnx | Jaffa, fine, what about gpe-contacts? | 16:27 |
| lbt | I am pointing out that the thinking one uses as a developer is not what you consider as a user | 16:28 |
| lcuk | lbtlbt, communication | 16:28 |
| lbt | lcuk: yes, I agree. | 16:28 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: there isn't a communication category in the current "new" category set | 16:29 |
| lbt | but the current suggestion appears to be 'Office' | 16:29 |
| Jaffa | johnx: a good suggestion. | 16:29 |
| Jaffa | lbt: No, that was for calendar. | 16:29 |
| lbt | Oh | 16:29 |
| Jaffa | So, finally we get to a problematic application. | 16:29 |
| lcuk | personally i would prefer a search box - i have a keyboard and the skills to type "contact" | 16:29 |
| lbt | I have an N800 | 16:29 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: App Manager's got one (although the UI sucks) | 16:29 |
| lcuk | really? i never found it heh | 16:30 |
| lcuk | its THAT Bad | 16:30 |
| Jaffa | johnx: I suspect gpe-contact should go in user/utilities (i.e. under "Accessories") | 16:30 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Look at the bar on the bottom ;) | 16:30 |
| lbt | what application is of no utility? | 16:30 |
| johnx | Jaffa, and should calendars go under office? | 16:30 |
| lcuk | heh X-Fade im used to filters at the top of lists not buttons that pop open new windows ;) | 16:30 |
| lbt | ie they all go in 'utilities' | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | johnx: I think so. | 16:31 |
| lcuk | i tried typing to move the list down as well which didnt work | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | lbt: User sees "Accessories" then | 16:31 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Well to quote Jaffa: "although the UI sucks" :) | 16:31 |
| lbt | same arg | 16:31 |
| johnx | I think splitting up PIM applications is a bad idea since people have clear ideas of what a PIM suite should include | 16:31 |
| lbt | all apps are accessories | 16:31 |
| lcuk | yeah i know | 16:31 |
| lbt | indeed | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | johnx: I don't think they do (a point qgil made a while ago). | 16:31 |
| lbt | which is why I said words that lead to "personal and social" | 16:32 |
| lbt | not 'PIM' | 16:32 |
| lbt | *IF* we had P&S | 16:32 |
| lbt | where would you look for calendar? | 16:32 |
| lbt | contacts? | 16:32 |
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| lcuk | x-fade, no matter what categories things end up in, is there a way to find out (a) how many apps are in each category, and (b) how frequently apps within it are downloaded? a UI based around that would help people a lot | 16:33 |
| lardman | would be interesting if the h-a-m could display that metadata | 16:34 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Well, all that data is available. It is just a matter of how to get that data in AM and how to display it. | 16:34 |
| lcuk | excellent! thats a real decent thing | 16:34 |
| X-Fade | Rating should also be cool. | 16:34 |
| * lcuk gets to work on a tagcloud | 16:34 | |
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| lcuk | x-fade, we have that from maemo.org/download | 16:35 |
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| lcuk | aren't they linked? | 16:35 |
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| X-Fade | lcuk: yes, but I want rating inside AM :) | 16:35 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: My ideal UI for the App Manager would show the number of apps in a category before you opened it. | 16:35 |
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| GeneralAntilles | (see my mockups) | 16:35 |
| X-Fade | Fresh/new applications, right there in AM. | 16:35 |
| Jaffa | Well, s/ideal/immediately practicable and achievable with some weekend hacking/ | 16:36 |
| lbt | if you don't mind - why? | 16:36 |
| lcuk | yes, find a way to grab a digest of package,category,rating downloaded with the update lists | 16:36 |
| lardman | Jaffa: stick it on the key next to the name | 16:36 |
| wazd | Awaw, I have great AM UI designs | 16:36 |
| lcuk | and bobs your uncle | 16:36 |
| wazd | But they are on my god damn broken PC( | 16:36 |
| lcuk | jaffa - yes and that same number of apps can be used to display as a cloud | 16:36 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Was thinking of using the same GtkTreeView as the package info itself, and use the 'Size' column. Then will have the same code between package & sub-category list as top-level category list. | 16:36 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: indeed. I can't be arsed to develop my own tag cloud any time soon :) | 16:36 |
| lardman | lbt: no real reason, just to have a feeling of what's going to present itself (for me anyway) | 16:36 |
| lcuk | heh jaffa | 16:37 |
| lardman | what's a tag cloud? | 16:37 |
| * lcuk needs to parse apt-cache's output... hmmm | 16:37 | |
| lbt | anyway, got to pay attention now - back later. I was trying to be positive about this and make it better :) I think P&S or similar would be good for users... l8r | 16:37 |
| lardman | that thing on maemo.org/downloads -> different size depending on # of matches? | 16:37 |
| Jaffa | lardman: basically, yes | 16:37 |
| X-Fade | lardman: For example. | 16:37 |
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| lardman | they are annoying to use, nice to see though | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which, of course, makes small categories hard to get to. | 16:38 |
| lardman | yes | 16:38 |
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| X-Fade | or https://garage.maemo.org/softwaremap/trove_cloud.php | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | The initial "Wow" factor can't be undervalued, though. | 16:38 |
| lcuk | depending upon minimum size agreed gen | 16:38 |
| wazd | Cloud is totally useless | 16:38 |
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| wazd | Absolutely useless | 16:38 |
| lcuk | but if minimum and maximum are set carefully its informative (and use color) | 16:38 |
| Jaffa | wazd: "totally" and "absolutely" are a bit wrong | 16:38 |
| lcuk | on a touchdisplay its important | 16:39 |
| Jaffa | lcuk++ | 16:39 |
| lcuk | most often used things are big and easy to reach :) | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ari can't even spell "maemo" correctly. | 16:39 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Something like this would be nice: http://www.wordle.net/ | 16:39 |
| wazd | Jaffa: does anyone cares how much software there is in category?) | 16:40 |
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| lcuk | basically yes x-fade :) (liqbase does it with sketches for now, ill see about a generic gtk label version) | 16:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | wazd, I do. | 16:40 |
| lardman | wazd: not really, but it's sort of interesting | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | wazd: So your comment is "showing how many apps are in a category is useless"; rather than tag clouds. | 16:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mostly to know whether to click on it. | 16:41 |
| lardman | Is this any good? : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Foundations-Development-Experts-Voice-Source/dp/1590597931/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225291118&sr=1-1 | 16:41 |
| Jaffa | If there's one app in a category, and I'm browsing around to install some new stuff, I'll go to the place with more in | 16:41 |
| wazd | Jaffa: true) And tag clouds too :) | 16:41 |
| lcuk | wazd, not for the categories so much, but for the rated and downloaded stats 100% | 16:41 |
| wazd | lcuk: I think it's kind of "not fair" | 16:41 |
| lardman | lcuk: that's hard, what will the metric be? mean/median/max? | 16:41 |
| wazd | new software will be tiny | 16:42 |
| wazd | Canola will cover 200% of the screen xD | 16:42 |
| lcuk | wazd, from small seeds comes great things :) | 16:42 |
| lardman | I can't stand it myself | 16:42 |
| lcuk | its "popular" though | 16:42 |
| lardman | so is Labour | 16:42 |
| lardman | well was | 16:42 |
| lcuk | and just a different way to look at it - if theres 5 different views available for the same app manager what does it matter | 16:43 |
| lcuk | some people can choose clouds, others lists others trees | 16:43 |
| lardman | true, if it's something someone really wants then they can code it up and see if it's popular too | 16:43 |
| wazd | lcuk: I think straight list with abillity to sort by popularity/freshness/whatever will be the best | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: As long as they get coded :) | 16:43 |
| lcuk | wazd, see previous comment | 16:43 |
| lardman | anyone any thoughts on GTK+ books? | 16:43 |
| wazd | ah) | 16:43 |
| lcuk | we are as a community discussing this - each of us has ideas and some of us are coders, if we mock things up we can see what works | 16:44 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: absolutely :) | 16:44 |
| * GeneralAntilles explodes. | 16:45 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Too much rice and fried chicken. | 16:45 |
| * RST38h is going to suggest something | 16:45 | |
| wazd | General: and for desert, new Maemo Theme :D | 16:46 |
| * RST38h puts his pointy hat with little bells on | 16:46 | |
| * GeneralAntilles might die. | 16:46 | |
| RST38h | General: Why wait for the Collider? | 16:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | fms's software and not fms's software? | 16:46 |
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| melmoth | lardman: http://www.gtkbook.com/home.php seems nice | 16:46 |
| RST38h | Long while ago, there was a MAME shell that let you sort games by year, make, popularity, board type, category, etc etc | 16:47 |
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| RST38h | How about looking at it and using the same kind of GUI? | 16:47 |
| lardman | melmoth: cool, that's the same as the one on Amazon | 16:47 |
| RST38h | Of course Maemo categories will be different and some stuff we do not really need, but the whole shell app was very handy | 16:48 |
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| Jaffa | That looks like a good book | 16:49 |
| Jaffa | lardman: $31.99 or 33 quid! | 16:50 |
| lardman | amazon said £13 for second hand, but it's from the US, so may take a year or so to arrive | 16:50 |
| lardman | ~£25 for a new one from the UK | 16:50 |
| wazd | I think its 300 pages thick and there are only two words on each page) | 16:51 |
| wazd | You can't :) | 16:51 |
| RST38h | good for self defense | 16:51 |
| lardman | keep it in my brest pocket to deflect bullets | 16:51 |
| RST38h | too heavy | 16:52 |
| wazd | I think it's rather offensive weapon :D | 16:52 |
| lardman | what, GTK+ ;) | 16:53 |
| Jaffa | lardman: 15 quid for a new one from the US. Not sure you can add marketplace stuff to your wishlist | 16:53 |
| Jaffa | Long time till Christmas, too | 16:53 |
| johnx | lbt, (and anyone else interested), I put up my thoughts for a "personal and social" section on the talk page of the package categories wiki: http://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Task:Package_categories | 16:53 |
| lardman | yeah, stuff from the US takes ages to arrive though | 16:53 |
| lardman | I'd rather pay an extra tenner and have it this week | 16:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | johnx, that doesn't make an overwhelming amount of sense. | 16:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | email could just as easily fit in network | 16:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | and GPE I'd, personally, be more inclined to stick in Office. | 16:54 |
| Jaffa | johnx: you lose points for not having the care to add it alpabetically ordered ;-) | 16:55 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, it's about the primary purpose of the app | 16:55 |
| johnx | Jaffa, I have an agenda to push! (fixing it now) | 16:55 |
| * GeneralAntilles doesn't like it. | 16:55 | |
| johnx | ok, so what's the most important thing about a contacts app? that you might use it at your office? that it might be networked? or that it keeps people's names? | 16:56 |
| melmoth | lardman: haev you considered the older book (wich is available for free in hmtl, thus, readable in the tablet too ) http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/ | 16:57 |
| lcuk | im gonna vanish again, bbl guys | 16:57 |
| Jaffa | Contact app is the only one I've heard which compellingly doesn't fit into one of the other categories; but it's so "simple" from a user point of view, I can live with it in "user/utilities" - because a new category for "all contact apps" doesn't seem sensible ;-) | 16:58 |
| lardman | melmoth: too much gnome, not much content afaict | 16:58 |
| Jaffa | melmoth: the problem with learning something from an older book is that the concepts aren't the hard things, it's knowing what's available to you - and that changes every release: so newer == better. | 16:58 |
| lardman | then again, perhaps I should just find a decent set of docs on the web and use those | 16:59 |
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| Jaffa | lardman: If you find some, let me know. | 16:59 |
| johnx | if a user is looking for a contacts app, where are they likely to look? What makes sense from someone who isn't thinking about this from our perspective? | 16:59 |
| lardman | Jaffa: yeah :( | 16:59 |
| johnx | And this collection of "apps to help you manage your own information and information about other people" is one of the most popular uses of the tablet | 17:02 |
| johnx | Yes, it could be put with the rest of the clutter in utilties, but that's a "catch all" | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | i loathe the "extras" category in hildon | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:02 |
| lbt | GeneralAntilles: I'd look for SMTP in network, I'd look for "send an email to Susan to ask about gossip" in Personal and Social .... what kind of role are you playing? | 17:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | We're talking about packages not "doing things". | 17:03 |
| johnx | The point is not to say "x could fit in category y" but to find a category where it fits best | 17:03 |
| lbt | Oh, so when Susan wants to install email she looks in 'Network'? | 17:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | I really, _really_ hate these sorts of discussions. | 17:04 |
| * GeneralAntilles checks out. | 17:04 | |
| melmoth | lardman: decent recent doc==devhelp | 17:04 |
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| lbt | me too - they are hard to do when not face-2-face | 17:04 |
| melmoth | but it s more of a reference thingy than a howto | 17:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, no, there's never a "right" answer and everybody has a different opinion of how it should be done. | 17:05 |
| lbt | and I understand your argument. | 17:05 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, if you're worried about hurting feelings, don't. I'm honestly interested in different ideas, but I think this is important because it is one things all new users will run into | 17:05 |
| lbt | I feel I could act as your proxy | 17:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, me? Worried about hurting feelings? You're kidding, right? | 17:05 |
| lbt | I don't feel I've done my job to let you see my point of vieew | 17:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | :P | 17:05 |
| lbt | so I don't think you could argue as my advocate | 17:06 |
| * wazd really hates Maemo themes( | 17:07 | |
| wazd | They are so fricking complicated( | 17:07 |
| lardman | melmoth: ah, I forgot that one | 17:07 |
| johnx | Anyways, the proposal is up on the talk page, if anyone has questions, ask me or lbt. If you want to shoot it down that's fine. I'd be willing to compromise on at least collecting PIM under utilities/personal if for some reason *everything* with network capabilities has to be under network | 17:07 |
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| johnx | *crickets* | 17:10 |
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| GeneralAntilles | We're avoiding subcategories for the time being. | 17:12 |
| lardman | booo! ;) | 17:12 |
| johnx | fair enough | 17:13 |
| herwood | Hi | 17:13 |
| johnx | hello :) | 17:13 |
| herwood | has anyone used osso-addressbook with Qt? | 17:13 |
| herwood | I mean the lib-version of the addressbook | 17:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx or lbt, can you poke at the discussion on -developers at least? | 17:14 |
| * RST38h sadly observes INTC stock | 17:14 | |
| RST38h | On the other hand, AMD is $2+ :) | 17:14 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, alright | 17:14 |
| derf | Why sadly? | 17:15 |
| herwood | I'm just wondering that can the addressbook -library be used without the main loop (because Qt does not have one) | 17:15 |
| derf | Unless you're planning to retire soon, you want stocks to be cheap. | 17:15 |
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| RST38h | derf: not planning to retire, not planning to buy more | 17:17 |
| derf | Well, if you're not buying or selling, it doesn't matter what the price is. | 17:18 |
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| lardman | price doesn't matter, the delta does though | 17:19 |
| RST38h | derf: thinks. =) | 17:19 |
| RST38h | think | 17:19 |
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| lbt | GeneralAntilles: I did - but I got zarro response. So I prodded here too :) | 17:21 |
| derf | lardman: What matters is value, not price. | 17:22 |
| derf | Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. | 17:22 |
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| lardman | value of a share you mean? Or value of the share transaction (which is the delta effectively)? | 17:22 |
| derf | The value of the business. | 17:22 |
| RST38h | he means the long span value of the company | 17:23 |
| lardman | the intrinsic value of a share should be reflected in its price, but as you can't cash in your shares and take computers for them, that is meaningless | 17:23 |
| lardman | assuming it's a computer company we;re talking about | 17:23 |
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| derf | lardman: Over the long term, value is reflected in price. | 17:23 |
| derf | Over the short term, it is often not. | 17:23 |
| RST38h | given how inflated markets are anyway, I am not sure about that :) | 17:24 |
| lardman | yes, but value is of no interest really, it's the change in the price of the shares that matters | 17:24 |
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| derf | Just because the price is much lower than it was a month ago doesn't mean the business is much less valuable. | 17:24 |
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| lardman | derf: no, but the shares are less valuable | 17:24 |
| derf | Not in the long term. | 17:24 |
| lardman | true, but again, that really doesn't matter; it;'s the change over time that matters | 17:25 |
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| lardman | so if we talk about value of a company, it's the company's value (reflected in the change in share price) that is of interest | 17:25 |
| lardman | unless you do it for voting rights of course | 17:26 |
| derf | I'm trying to tell you, the company's value is very often _not_ acccurately reflected in the share price in the short term. | 17:26 |
| lardman | yes | 17:26 |
| derf | However, it will be in the long term. | 17:26 |
| lardman | it is the change in the value of the company (aka share price) that is important | 17:27 |
| derf | Value is not aka share price. | 17:27 |
| lardman | why not? | 17:27 |
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| lardman | f(value,risk ) | 17:27 |
| derf | Because the company makes the same amount of money regardless of what its share price is. | 17:27 |
| Veggen | Lots of stocks nowadays throughout the world, I guess you could buy, sell off the contracts, sell off the assets and go into plus. | 17:28 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, now that we've had a discussion and have some more concrete examples and ideas. | 17:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, your previous email was a bit too nebulous. | 17:28 |
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| lopz | hola | 17:36 |
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| RST38h | zap: btw, had any luck with openstreetmaps? | 17:43 |
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| lardman | lcuk, GeneralAntilles: how does one produce an html page for a Garage project? | 17:45 |
| lardman | just stick it somewhere? | 17:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | /www in svn | 17:45 |
| lardman | ok, cool | 17:45 |
| lardman | thanks | 17:45 |
| X-Fade | There is an on commit hook for that in svn. Use the www dir indeed. | 17:46 |
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| lardman | Just thought I should perhaps add some blurb to the projects I'm involved with, rather than blogging about them :p | 17:47 |
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| lardman | bbl | 17:51 |
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| wazd | Ok, I was the last person on the planet that haven't caught infinite loop tablet rebooting | 17:54 |
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| wazd | Now it is | 17:54 |
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| RST38h | You have been naughty, have you? | 17:56 |
| RST38h | Was it boot menu? Or debian? Or a custom kernel? | 17:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Wouldn't be bootmenu | 17:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nor Debian, really. | 17:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Custom kernel, perhaps, but not any of the usual binary-providing suspects. | 17:57 |
| RST38h | should be the kernel then | 17:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | If he compiled his own dodgy kernel, maybe. | 17:58 |
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| wazd | I had simple firmware) | 17:59 |
| wazd | Applied new Theme and it crashed into loop | 18:00 |
| dneary | hey hey | 18:00 |
| wazd | hey there | 18:00 |
| dneary | andre___: Ping? | 18:00 |
| dneary | Anyone know if there's a Maemo "how to report a bug" guide? | 18:00 |
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| wazd | OMG, it killed Olmsteds n810 too! | 18:01 |
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| dneary | Found! https://bugs.maemo.org/page.cgi?id=bug-writing.html | 18:01 |
| wazd | I've invented Killer Theme! | 18:01 |
| andre___ | dneary, a general one? I think there's only https://bugs.maemo.org/page.cgi?id=bug-writing.html | 18:02 |
| RST38h | KILL KILL DESTROY | 18:02 |
| andre___ | but that's what we normally use when a report is vague or very incomplete... | 18:02 |
| RST38h | moo, qwerty I am out | 18:02 |
| qwerty12 | heh, hi RST38h | 18:02 |
| dneary | andre___: Found it | 18:02 |
| ciro1 | wazd: which theme are you talking about? | 18:02 |
| wazd | Titan | 18:03 |
| dneary | andre___: Second question: is there an RSS feed of reported bugs? | 18:03 |
| andre___ | i'm too slow against dneary with his superpowers... :'( ;-) | 18:03 |
| dneary | andre___: I had to come here to find it ;) | 18:03 |
| wazd | Seems like Theme Maker made me a surprise for release | 18:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, not that I know of, but I can tell you how to generate a "recently filed" search | 18:04 |
| ciro1 | wazd: I cant find it in garage | 18:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or you should just subscribe to bugmail. | 18:04 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Please do! | 18:04 |
| wazd | ciro1: It's not released yet | 18:04 |
| andre___ | dneary, i don't think RSS for bugzilla exists. at least not in our version | 18:04 |
| ciro1 | oh, ok :) thank you | 18:05 |
| andre___ | dneary, ah well - you can have an RSS feed for queries it seems | 18:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, change the number of days to whatever you prefer: http://tinyurl.com/6eovtl | 18:05 |
| andre___ | yupp | 18:06 |
| wazd | ciro1: I was trying to release it, made a package and it killed my device) | 18:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bugmail would probably be best, though. | 18:06 |
| ciro1 | wazd: I would love to give it a look | 18:08 |
| melmoth | GeneralAntilles: do you feel like telling Tim ("Needing help with dead unit" mail in devel-list) his code should be his mac address ? | 18:08 |
| dneary | https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_file_loc\x3d\x26bug_file_loc_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26bug_id\x3d\x26bug_status\x3dNEW\x26bug_status\x3dASSIGNED\x26bug_status\x3dREOPENED\x26bugidtype\x3dinclude\x26chfield\x3d%5BBug%20creation%5D\x26chfieldfrom\x3d1m\x26chfieldto\x3dNow\x26chfieldvalue\x3d\x26email1\x3d\x26email2\x3d\x26emailassigned_to1\x3d1\x26emailassigned_to2\x3d1\x26emailcc2\x3d1\x26emailqa_contact2\x3d1\x26emailreporter2\x3d1\x26emai | 18:08 |
| dneary | ltype1\x3dsubstring\x26emailtype2\x3dsubstring\x26field-1-0-0\x3dbug_status\x26field0-0-0\x3dnoop\x26keywords\x3d\x26keywords_type\x3dallwords\x26long_desc\x3d\x26long_desc_type\x3dsubstring\x26query_format\x3dadvanced\x26remaction\x3d\x26short_desc\x3d\x26short_desc_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26status_whiteboard\x3d\x26status_whiteboard_type\x3dallwordssubstr\x26type-1-0-0\x3danyexact\x26type0-0-0\x3dnoop\x26value-1-0-0\x3dNEW%2CASSIGNED%2CREOPENED | 18:08 |
| dneary | \x26value0-0-0\x3d\x26votes\x3d\x26title\x3dBug%20List\x26ctype\x3datom | 18:08 |
| dneary | Ooops! | 18:08 |
| qwerty12 | woah | 18:08 |
| melmoth | i just dont get how it could be wrong | 18:08 |
| wazd | They are here! | 18:08 |
| wazd | Evacuate!!11 | 18:08 |
| johnx | heh...did that the other day :) | 18:09 |
| qwerty12 | wazd, if I can beta test your theme, I can attempt to find out why it's tha killa theme :P *grin* | 18:09 |
| wazd | Well, it worked well, just bad package I suppose | 18:10 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: yours were slightly more scary though ;) | 18:10 |
| wazd | I'll release it in 20 minutes) | 18:10 |
| nemo | dneary: you know, most of those vars are blank and could have been trimmed | 18:10 |
| qwerty12 | Thanks :). I need a dark[er] theme :) | 18:10 |
| nemo | even without a shorter URL service :-p | 18:10 |
| wazd | When I'll have a device to test on | 18:10 |
| nemo | personally when I write searches, I rewrite the URL to strip blanks before sending it back to the user. | 18:11 |
| nemo | just to be thoughtful :-p | 18:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | nemo, know of a script to sanitize bugzilla search URLs? | 18:11 |
| wazd | can you remind me where I can get flasher for windows?) | 18:11 |
| wazd | Nokia flashing utility | 18:11 |
| qwerty12 | ~flashing | 18:12 |
| infobot | methinks flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 18:12 |
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| qwerty12 | I'll be needing a 36-5 image soon :/. Guess I'll use Harrowed's method with the windows flasher to save me an image | 18:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't get why they can put the damn FIASCO image on the server. | 18:13 |
| nemo | GeneralAntilles: I guess I could write one | 18:13 |
| nemo | GeneralAntilles: would be a very short script | 18:13 |
| nemo | bookmarklet, more like | 18:13 |
| nemo | hm | 18:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | nemo, that'd pretty very nice. | 18:13 |
| nemo | you know... | 18:13 |
| nemo | why not | 18:13 |
| * nemo writes one | 18:13 | |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm bored of trimming them by hand. | 18:14 |
| nemo | oh. oops emergency | 18:14 |
| nemo | will take a moment | 18:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Take your time, I have no end of searches to paste. :) | 18:14 |
| dneary | nemo: Yup | 18:14 |
| dneary | ttfn! | 18:15 |
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| penguinbait_210 | nick penguinbait | 18:16 |
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| penguinbait | whoops | 18:17 |
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| wazd | It says I have wrong time set on my PC | 18:18 |
| icebattle | me too | 18:18 |
| wazd | What the hell is going on( | 18:18 |
| icebattle | I haven't been able to reflash since Sunday | 18:18 |
| wazd | How the hell should I reanimate my tablet?( | 18:18 |
| melmoth | same as the guy who posted on devel- | 18:19 |
| icebattle | I keep resetting my time on the PC, but no luck | 18:19 |
| melmoth | wazd: use a linux flasher ? | 18:19 |
| wazd | I should have Linux firstly) | 18:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Will somebody post a blocker bug on bugzilla, please? | 18:19 |
| icebattle | I use windows hosted linux for app dev, so usb is difficult | 18:19 |
| icebattle | I'll post the bug | 18:20 |
| wazd | I think thats because of winter time switch | 18:20 |
| melmoth | sounds like it... It occured this sunday | 18:20 |
| icebattle | My suspicion exactly - in NA we're still on daylight saving | 18:20 |
| wazd | But why the hell does flasher needs my time?! | 18:20 |
| qwerty12 | wazd, live cd :D. actually, it would be cool if someone made a tiny tiny linux live cd that has the sole purpose of flashing a image from a usb stick | 18:20 |
| wazd | I haven't got CD-ROM either xD | 18:20 |
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| icebattle | GeneralA - is this a maemo website bug, or maemo software? | 18:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maemo Software -> Flasher: Windows | 18:28 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd: timezone/daylight savings stuff maybe? | 18:28 |
| wazd | already changes | 18:28 |
| wazd | changed*\ | 18:28 |
| wazd | same crap | 18:28 |
| wazd | I mean, why the hell updater needs my time? | 18:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Who knows | 18:29 |
| wazd | Why not my desktop wallpaper or minesweeper record time? | 18:29 |
| qwerty12 | There | 18:29 |
| qwerty12 | oops | 18:29 |
| qwerty12 | That was the start of a reply that was not meant to be :) | 18:29 |
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| GeneralAntilles | icebattle, make sure it's blocker. | 18:31 |
| johnx | try putting your clock ahead or behind one hour, just for fun | 18:31 |
| icebattle | Will do. | 18:31 |
| johnx | I'm working on a theory... | 18:31 |
| wazd | Hah | 18:31 |
| wazd | Olmsted is a Pure Genius | 18:32 |
| wazd | To flash just disconnect PC from the internet | 18:32 |
| wazd | ha-ha( | 18:32 |
| johnx | well, there's that too | 18:32 |
| qwerty12 | but what if you want to flash straight to 36-5? :) | 18:32 |
| icebattle | bug has been reported. Thanks, GA | 18:33 |
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| wazd | yay | 18:35 |
| wazd | Tablet's back | 18:35 |
| icebattle | That quick! | 18:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Seeing as how more than a few people have complained, I'm going to confirm the bug without first-hand experience. | 18:37 |
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| qwerty12 | I'm getting the same error and my time & timezone is set correctly | 18:37 |
| icebattle | I tried disconnecting, but no luck | 18:38 |
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| wazd | noway | 18:38 |
| wazd | It should work | 18:38 |
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| johnx | anyone with this problem: Could you try setting different times? maybe back 30 minutes, then back an hour? | 18:39 |
| qwerty12 | haha, It's sending my Glock40 version string to the update server :P | 18:39 |
| wazd | It passes that stupid check and allows you to chose firmware rom | 18:39 |
| vincenzo88 | Goodbye to all :) | 18:40 |
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| qwerty12 | Log data, item 5 | 18:41 |
| qwerty12 | Address=76BE42EB | 18:41 |
| qwerty12 | Message=Debug string: device_software_version=RX-34+RX-44+RX-48_DIABLO_4.2008.36-5-Glock40_PR_MR0&device_hardware_version=RX-34&device_hardware_revision=1302×tamp=2008-10-29+16:41:05 | 18:41 |
| qwerty12 | ^ that's what it's sending when I click the next button. | 18:41 |
| qwerty12 | All looks correct to me. | 18:42 |
| qwerty12 | Fuck. Replacing that LEAVE with NOP's fucks it up. | 18:45 |
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| penguinbait | qwerty12, takes the lead | 18:46 |
| icebattle | I've tried multiple times - back an hour, forward an hour | 18:47 |
| penguinbait | got a 3 way tie goin between Texrat, GA, and qole | 18:47 |
| icebattle | ... no DST, etc | 18:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | I wonder if people are factoring in the wiki that I mostly wrote. ;) | 18:47 |
| icebattle | Probably not - you know what devs are like ;-) | 18:48 |
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| penguinbait | GA, you were supposed to vote for yourself, this would lend credibility to my last poll ;) | 18:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | None of the people who have really, really helped me are on that list. | 18:54 |
| penguinbait | I hear ya, but I either do top 10 or listen to people whining about how they should have been up there :) | 18:55 |
| melmoth | hola moontiger | 18:55 |
| icebattle | if i follow the wiki, the 36-5 image is not on the download page | 18:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | icebattle, yeah, there's a bug. :\ | 18:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | At least two Nokians are working on it | 18:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | No idea what the blocker is. | 18:56 |
| icebattle | OK, thaks for the update | 18:56 |
| penguinbait | what planet do Nokian's hail from? | 18:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Finland, usually. | 18:56 |
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| wazd | okay, second try | 18:58 |
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| moontiger | hey melmoth :) | 18:59 |
| melmoth | how's life ? | 19:00 |
| moontiger | very busy with work this past week ... off for 6 days after today :) | 19:01 |
| moontiger | i can do some more work on the web stuff ;) | 19:01 |
| melmoth | i m having short holidays next week too :) | 19:01 |
| moontiger | nice | 19:02 |
| melmoth | cool. I think what is "urgent" is to be able to for user to remove information, pic or gps info.Right now, only i can do it. | 19:02 |
| moontiger | and of course im packing and getting rid of things ready to move | 19:02 |
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| moontiger | i can add that ability easily ;) | 19:02 |
| melmoth | we are not used by gazillions of people, so it is not urgent as such, but it s the next needed feature | 19:02 |
| moontiger | i'll take care of that tomorrow ... just delete stuff ? | 19:03 |
| moontiger | does it need to be saved somewhere? | 19:03 |
| melmoth | well, being able to delete picture and gps data that are not needed anymore | 19:03 |
| melmoth | being able to send the data by email could be an option too. | 19:03 |
| moontiger | right ... as well as setting max num pictures to keep and max gps points to keep automatically | 19:04 |
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| melmoth | yep | 19:04 |
| moontiger | i'll do it tomorrow ;) | 19:04 |
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| icebattle | Has anyone experienced the slow GPS on N810? My N800 connects to a bluetooth GPS receiver and gets a fix very quickly, but the N810 is awful with internal and bt | 21:18 |
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| RST38h | icebattle: install agps-ui from Maemo Extras | 21:23 |
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| RST38h | icebattle: select your location in agps-ui (approximately), then quit agps-ui and run some mapping software - it should lock on faster | 21:23 |
| icebattle | ok, thanks for the advice. I'll try that when I get the unit flashed | 21:24 |
| Jaffa | I thought you kept agps-ui running? | 21:24 |
| qwerty12_N800 | afaik, the supl daemon stores the info given by the ui | 21:25 |
| RST38h | no | 21:25 |
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| RST38h | it just tores your appxmt location somewhere no need to keep it running | 21:25 |
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| Jaffa | Ah, cool | 21:25 |
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| Jaffa | It also doesn't tell you when it's successfully downloaded the data so you never really know how long to keep it open | 21:26 |
| melmoth | icebattle: my n810 has always been painfull slow, with or with agps | 21:26 |
| icebattle | That's a bit sad. My N800 works great | 21:27 |
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| icebattle | I followed some links on the osso-gpsd fix, but the package I found wouldn't install | 21:28 |
| qwerty12_N800 | That was a fluke anyway | 21:28 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: it is not perfect in many ways | 21:29 |
| RST38h | but it does not look like its authors take feedback | 21:29 |
| penguinbait | qwerty12, your kick'n butt, but qole is close behind :) | 21:29 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: *shock* | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: BTW, it will download data when you access gps | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: So there is NO need to keep it open | 21:30 |
| RST38h | icebattle: use agps-ui, case closed. | 21:30 |
| qwerty12_N800 | penguinbait, heh. :) | 21:30 |
| icebattle | By your command! ;-) | 21:31 |
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| RST38h | http://books.rusf.ru/add-on/xussr_mr/petuhy11/ufo2-07b.gif | 21:40 |
| RST38h | Hehe | 21:40 |
| qwerty12_N800 | wierd :p | 21:41 |
| RST38h | qwerty: The author has got mental problems. He sees and classifies aliens. | 21:43 |
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| * lcuk freezes | 21:46 | |
| moontiger | lcuk, cold? | 21:47 |
| lcuk | yeah | 21:47 |
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| lcuk | i thought id broke my knob, but it turns out its some mixer paddle thats come off | 21:48 |
| * lcuk has a cold car | 21:48 | |
| qwerty12_N800 | hehe... | 21:48 |
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| lcuk | shurrup qwerty :P | 21:48 |
| qwerty12_N800 | :P | 21:49 |
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| lcuk | when we showed the offending knob to the mechanic he knew straight away what the problem was :D | 21:49 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lol :D | 21:50 |
| lcuk | i really did think it was just broken, but that fan control thing in the car goes right into the heart of it all and they need 2 days to fix car :S | 21:50 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | :( | 21:51 |
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| lcuk | i best console myself by writing some code | 21:51 |
| penguinbait | I just got hit with a $2725 bill to replace all the sewer pipes under my house | 21:52 |
| glass | ouch | 21:52 |
| penguinbait | I'll take the knob prob | 21:52 |
| lcuk | penguinbait, you're talkin shit | 21:52 |
| penguinbait | hehe | 21:52 |
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| penguinbait | I'll feeling crappy too | 21:52 |
| lcuk | thats a big deal tho | 21:52 |
| glass | better than walking in shit | 21:52 |
| penguinbait | My house smelled like a sewer for about a week | 21:53 |
| lcuk | penguinbait, i gather you mean the ones connecting your toilet to the main drain, or is this just a random pipe passing under your property? | 21:53 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: re #3827, don't we mean sortof the same, - that standard GTK apps should be able to run on top of maemo gtk without issue, and maemo gtk shouldn't make illusions about only targeting hildon+matchbox environments?, where maemo gtk is a drop in replacement that makes it more sane for mobile devices? | 21:53 |
| penguinbait | but better than walking in shit | 21:53 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | $2725?!? How much shit goes under your house? :p | 21:53 |
| RST38h | $2725 is pretty low for something like this | 21:54 |
| penguinbait | do you not know me? lots of shit :) | 21:54 |
| RST38h | Consider amount of digging they have to do | 21:54 |
| qwerty12_N800 | :) | 21:54 |
| penguinbait | And playing in my shit | 21:54 |
| lcuk | depends how its cured and where from | 21:54 |
| penguinbait | Happily pay the bill so I did not have to crawl in and do it | 21:54 |
| lcuk | 100% agree penguinbait i dunno how ppl coped before proper waste treatment | 21:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: septic tanks | 21:55 |
| qwerty12_N800 | the thames | 21:56 |
| lcuk | sod all this computers mean we are modern - its the toilets that make a civilization | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: where "normal" gtk is targeted towards definate desktop use and "maemo" gtk is targeted towards mobile use, with intend to have gtk flexible enough to accomodate those eventually :P | 21:56 |
| RST38h | lcuk: or, rather, holes in the ground | 21:56 |
| penguinbait | I hear ya, I used to actually have to work for a living, now I just play with computers :) | 21:56 |
| lcuk | RST38h, as a russian you will know that walking out to a hole in the ground is bad for your extremities | 21:56 |
| lcuk | heh pb | 21:56 |
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| lcuk | http://uk.gizmodo.com/2008/10/29/robot_wine_taster_samples_huma.html | 21:57 |
| RST38h | lcuk: as a russian, you usually wear stuff | 21:58 |
| lcuk | how do you ummmm evacuate your waste into said hole in the ground without having things blowing in the wind? | 21:59 |
| RST38h | lcuk: quickly. | 21:59 |
| lcuk | heh good answer | 21:59 |
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| RST38h | "like hedgehogs making love - slowly and VERY carefully" | 22:00 |
| penguinbait | tastes like bacon! mmmmm bacon | 22:00 |
| lcuk | i suppose this was why vodka was invented, both for the numbing effect and the high concentration means less visits outside ;) | 22:01 |
| lcuk | i love the way my xchat highlights bacon :D | 22:01 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: yes, I suppose so. | 22:01 |
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| penguinbait | bacon, dogs don't know its not bacon | 22:01 |
| penguinbait | maybe its human ? | 22:02 |
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| lcuk | omg are you sayin beggin strips are people? | 22:02 |
| penguinbait | maybe ? | 22:02 |
| lcuk | :O | 22:02 |
| penguinbait | they don't know its not bacon? what the hell is it? | 22:03 |
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| Stskeeps | Jaffa: alright, just got confused :P | 22:04 |
| lcuk | right, i think tonight i shall mostly be trying to write a gui designer | 22:04 |
| penguinbait | I see they play that comercial in UK too? | 22:04 |
| RST38h | lcuk: why? | 22:04 |
| lcuk | no penguinbait i read a lot of bacon sites | 22:04 |
| lcuk | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bacon/ | 22:04 |
| lcuk | from here mainly | 22:05 |
| * lcuk gets hungry whenever he browses | 22:05 | |
| penguinbait | hehe | 22:05 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, cos i keep sketching out GUIs and want to test them and see if they work but am very lazy and just want to use what ive sketched | 22:06 |
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| penguinbait | how lcuk thinks when he is hungry, mapped out > http://incredimazing.com/page/Bacon_Flowchart | 22:07 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | hmm, the page is on the small side :p | 22:08 |
| lcuk | increase zoom, maximum bacon | 22:08 |
| qwerty12_N800 | :) | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: possible new focus, look at what causes maemo gtk to incompatible with non-hildon/non-matchbox | 22:09 |
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| penguinbait | I like the "Are you wearing pants?" | 22:09 |
| lcuk | you don't need pants to make bacon - a good apron will save you | 22:09 |
| penguinbait | "you also hate getting hot bacon grease on your junk" | 22:10 |
| lcuk | apron == junk protection | 22:10 |
| lcuk | or does it mean something else in your country | 22:10 |
| lcuk | omg jake cant say father christmas | 22:11 |
| lcuk | he says farmer christmas | 22:11 |
| lcuk | so i said am i father or farmer | 22:11 |
| lcuk | he said im dad | 22:11 |
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| penguinbait | jake? your son? | 22:12 |
| lcuk | yeah | 22:12 |
| penguinbait | jake or jacob? | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | you're a bad parent if you talk to kids about christmas before it's december :P | 22:12 |
| lcuk | depends if hes been naughty or not | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | it starts 1. december, end of story | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:12 |
| penguinbait | I also have a Jacob | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | </grumpy> | 22:12 |
| lcuk | heh sts | 22:12 |
| lcuk | i bet my jacob is naughtier (and also cuter) than yours :P | 22:13 |
| penguinbait | he's about qwerty's age :) | 22:13 |
| lcuk | heh, mines only 6 | 22:13 |
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| penguinbait | yes, my Jacob is a smelly teenager | 22:13 |
| lcuk | ive got a smelly teenage son as well | 22:13 |
| lcuk | he just came back from camp this weekend after firing big guns :S | 22:14 |
| penguinbait | I have 4 - 9, 11, 13, 15 | 22:14 |
| zs | hi, i wrote a program, when i execute it in terminal everithing is ok, but when i run it from menu program exit after 2 minutes, any ideas? | 22:14 |
| penguinbait | I finally figured out what was causing that | 22:14 |
| lcuk | zs, you have your settings wrong on your startup .desktop thingy | 22:14 |
| lcuk | you havent registered with osso or whatever it is meant to be | 22:14 |
| qwerty12_N800 | zs, using dbus? | 22:14 |
| lcuk | b rb | 22:15 |
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| * qwerty12_N800 cries as I find my tiny collection of scummvm games gone | 22:16 | |
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| zs | qwerty12_N800: i created com.nokia.<my_app>.service and inside i got [D-BUS Service] Name=com.nokia.<my_app> Exec=/usr/bin/<my_app>, is it correct? | 22:19 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | zs, looks like it, are you calling osso_initialize? | 22:20 |
| pixies | I have a Palm LifeDrive that can be run Maemo him? | 22:20 |
| zs | qwerty12_N800: no | 22:21 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | zs, maybe http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.1 will help | 22:23 |
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| BugBlue | http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.16-1/ does help? | 22:23 |
| zs | qwerty12_N800: not found, ok i will do some research thanks | 22:23 |
| * lcuk is amazed his osso registration worked first time | 22:24 | |
| qwerty12_N800 | zs, sorry, here's a direct link: http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libosso-2.16-1/group__Init.html#g05d45d1e72c2cd74f665086225141431 | 22:24 |
| lcuk | i still dont know what i did | 22:24 |
| lardman | what are the gtk+ docs called in Ubuntu? | 22:26 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: adding gtk ui? ;) | 22:27 |
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| lcuk | no RST38h | 22:27 |
| lcuk | at least not yet | 22:27 |
| baddu | lardman: hellou, i got the loading to work when i switched the size to 0x100000, thanks | 22:28 |
| baddu | lardman: next problem ahead :) | 22:28 |
| Jaffa | lardman: I've ordered the book, new, from the US for a total of 17.75 - delivery estimate is 31 Oct, which seems a little eager :) | 22:28 |
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| lardman | Jaffa: I'm holding off still | 22:28 |
| lardman | baddu: what's up now? | 22:28 |
| Jaffa | I'll let you know if it's any good. | 22:28 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | lardman, libgtk2.0-doc? | 22:28 |
| lardman | yep thanks, just found it :) | 22:29 |
| qwerty12_N800 | :) | 22:29 |
| baddu | lardman: i try to communicate wit floats through ipbuf and normal messaging | 22:29 |
| lardman | floats? | 22:29 |
| lardman | as in floating point? | 22:29 |
| baddu | lardman: my source and destination values do not match then :P floats yeah, floating point variables | 22:30 |
| lardman | 32bit types get their top and bottom 16bits switched around | 22:30 |
| lardman | best to write 16bit types | 22:30 |
| lardman | and read them | 22:30 |
| baddu | lardman: so is the dsp big endian and arm little endian? | 22:30 |
| lardman | 0x12345678 -> 0x56781234 | 22:31 |
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| lardman | dsp is bigendian for the two 16bit chunks in a 32bit type, but the 16bit chunks are littleendian | 22:31 |
| baddu | lardman: i suppose when the endiannes changes also words are 'shifted' | 22:31 |
| lardman | yes, bytes are shifted | 22:31 |
| baddu | lardman: ok | 22:31 |
| lardman | and a byte is 16bits | 22:31 |
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| baddu | lardman: aaa, of course | 22:31 |
| lardman | but bytes are read/written the same on both platforms | 22:32 |
| Jaffa | Right, time to watch the Heroes I downloaded today | 22:32 |
| baddu | lardman: i agree that it's better to communicate with 16bit values, but i use floats in the dsp code (quite important in opengl) | 22:32 |
| baddu | lardman: so probably i try with some byteswap thing first | 22:33 |
| lardman | baddu: fair enough, might be worth copying the data to local memory (32bit copies are faster than 16bit) and doing some byte swapping en route | 22:33 |
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| lardman | There's probably an ASM command to allow you to read them backwards if you look for it | 22:33 |
| baddu | ok. let's see if i progress somehow | 22:34 |
| lardman | right, will be back in a while, pm me if you have troubles | 22:35 |
| lardman | (just so I notice it) | 22:35 |
| baddu | ok | 22:35 |
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| nemo | GeneralAntilles: hey | 22:37 |
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| nemo | GeneralAntilles: was a busy day at work but I made an (ugly) attempt. I originally contemplated tokenising in pairs and cleverness, but the cleverness was getting longer than ugly regex - so I did ugly regex | 22:38 |
| nemo | GeneralAntilles: if you want to clean it up, feel free :) | 22:38 |
| nemo | GeneralAntilles: well, anyway, here ya go. http://m8y.org/bookmarklets.xhtml - I kind of wish bugzilla would do this itself. | 22:40 |
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| nemo | tokenising would have been easier if they'd kept their variable names consistent | 22:48 |
| nemo | could have just had a blacklist and a list of ['bugid','email1'] then match on each where var began with pattern. | 22:49 |
| nemo | only. you can't. | 22:49 |
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| lardman|tv | what kind of GTK+ widget should I use for a spreadsheet-type view? | 22:55 |
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| lardman|tv | ah, GtkTreeView, strangely non-descriptive name.... | 22:59 |
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| zs | qwerty12_N800: thanks, with osso_initialize it works :) | 23:04 |
| qwerty12_N800 | heh, cool :) | 23:04 |
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| zs | time to go sleep, bye :) | 23:06 |
| qwerty12_N800 | bye | 23:06 |
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| melmoth | lardman|tv: there is a really nice tutorial about gtktreeview | 23:08 |
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| melmoth | they are ...a bit clumsy to work with | 23:08 |
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| melmoth | http://scentric.net/tutorial/ | 23:10 |
| melmoth | (doing that i c in guess ?) | 23:10 |
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