IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2008-10-28

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Pyrhosmodem de mes c*****es00:15
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pupnikso.. windows seems to be unable to deal with spotty umts connections....00:26
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* pupnik is sitting on a 3rd story porch and things working nicely00:27
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lardmanwhat can I use to intercept html form post event data?00:28
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lcukon device?00:30
lardmananywhere really00:30
pupniknice to see u lardman and lcuk00:30
lcukwell you could use a packet sniffer00:30
lcukhiya pupnik00:31
lardmanhi pupnik, how are you?00:31
pupnikhappy as a slowly boiling frog!  ..... mmmmm warm00:31
pupnik:)  ... new toys....00:31
lcukahhh you DID visit the red light zone in amsterdam then00:31
moontigerslowly boiling frog??!!00:32
* moontiger laughs00:32
lardmanEthereal me thninks should do the job00:32
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lcuklardman, :D my berlin presentations up00:32
pupnikno just picked up a great deal on umts/hsdpa plus an acer aspire one...  0 euro downpayment, 500 euro worth of hardware, and 24 month contract @ 25.50/mo00:33
lardmanlcuk: good stuff00:33
pupnikwireshark = ethereal00:33
pupnikurl lcuk ?00:33
lardmanpupnik: thanks00:33
lcukpupnik, top of maemo.org00:33
pupniknice :)00:33
lcukyeah simon, i deffo did better than linuxtag :D00:34
moontigerpupnik, did you get the pink one :)~00:34
* moontiger ducks00:34
pupnikgot the last one they had - white... nice little device!   no bluetooth but ....00:34
pupniki did get a pink strap for the umts stick (tmobile)00:34
moontigernot as pocketable as n8x0 tho right?00:34
pupnikno but hopefully will get the umts usb stick working on tablet soon00:35
lcukgtg anyway, back later00:36
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* pupnik watching lcuk presenting liqbase now00:36
qwerty12_N80Opupnik, have any idea what model the stick is? i know dannym compiled a lot of modules for umts sticks00:37
pupnikwebnwalk from tmobile used to be huawei E169 - no idea what this is....00:37
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pupnikmay have to buy a 2nd stick00:37
qwerty12_N80Oah, ok00:37
pupnikvery nice qwerty12_N80O00:38
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pupnikhey how did you guys get the beamer thing running at maemo summit?  very nice00:39
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pupniklcd projoector00:42
pupnikoh well very nice demo lcuk00:43
pupniki like how you manage screen real estate... the way things are big and use all of the screen00:43
pupnikthe 'menu metaphor' is oldschool pc-appendage00:44
pupnikvestigal imo00:44
Mouseylike tailbone!00:44
Mouseywhere is this alleged presentation?00:44
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hellwolfI installed contactinfos, but when it reports : error while loading shared libraries:
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pupnikhi hellwolf....  did you try googling the error?01:05
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guillermowhy in diablo is missing minesweeper game?01:08
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qwerty12_N80Obecause this isn't windows :p01:08
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qwerty12_N80Oi think  maemosweeper or something is in extras[-devel]01:10
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guillermoit's true. thanks01:15
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pupnikargh this winxp is killing me - constantly hitting the hard drive, despite 1GB ram... wtf is it doing?  no idea...01:27
pupniki HATE that01:27
macoutepupnik: try and change to vista :D01:27
* pupnik opens his freezer of trout01:28
macoutemy vista is slow as hell w/ 3 GB RAM and a quite decent dualcore01:28
macoutePLUS, taskmanager shows free memory and 1-2% cpu utilization01:28
pupnik"evil inside"01:28
macouteso, a million dollar question is whats happening?01:28
macouteas I surely dont know.01:28
pupniki'm sure a win guru would know01:29
macoutei really would be keen to migrate back to linux01:29
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lardmanpupnik: head here and get something that will tell you
pupnikty sir01:29
macouteive been windows-only (on desktop) for like 4 months01:29
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pupniksounds like... someone held a gun to your head macoute01:30
pupnikwow nice  link lardman01:30
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lardmanI presume it will be possible to fake an HTTP POST event using Python01:30
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lardmanyes, apparently so; good01:31
pupnikhah that sysintitnals siite is keeling ffox01:31
lardmanhmm, works ok for me with ff301:32
lardman3.0.3 to be precise01:32
pupnikhahahaha mcafee internet security suite just popped up "restart computer to finish installation of these programs"01:32
pupniki didn't install anything01:32
pupnikMicrosoft: ASS TO MOUTH01:33
macoutepupnik: my boss did :D01:35
macoutewell, he's so out of the ict-pictures that if i said that could we change to linux, he actually would agree01:35
pupnikthat's how it goes...01:35
macoutebut then, id need to work 25 hours a day for 8 years01:36
pupnikwhat is ict-pictures?01:36
macouteICT = information communication technologies, i suppose01:36
macoutei meant, that he doesnt know a thing about computers01:36
pupnikah, new acronym for me01:38
pupnikbttery gone on the acer01:39
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pupniklulz... p.o.s...01:39
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lardmandoes python gpsbt use the generic interface to the gps - i.e. it can use internal or external devices?01:42
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lcukyou're on a mission simon :D01:43
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lardmanyeah, thought I'd wrap the tube/bus route finder webpage in a nice easy to use app01:43
lcuk:D nice one01:43
lardmanas I was in Londinium at the weekend and could have done with something quick (rather than needing to open the browser) + GPS integration would be cool01:44
lcukdoes each route have to be manually entered for now (would assume so) or have bus companies started releasing info01:44
lardmanTransport for London handle the bus routes and tube ones, looks pretty good01:44
lcukwith gps coords i mean01:45
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lardmanso will need a location db of tube stops/bus stops, or a reverse lookup of the postcode/address01:46
lardmanshould be doable anyway01:47
lcukyer, might be an idea to see if its recorded on osm perhaps01:47
lcukif not, the first time a user uses the system they could offer coords01:48
lardmanotherwise a google query should return what'd needed I guess01:48
yacooblardman, there was an excellent program for public transport planning on PalmOS01:48
lardmanyacoob: do you have a name?01:48
lcukMétro is your free guide on Palm to public transport systems worldwide (400 cities covered now).01:48
yacooblardman, I don't know what kind of functionality you have in mind, but having a general 'bus/tram/train/metro planner' would be awesome01:48
lardmanyacoob: yeah, that was my thought01:49
yacooblardman, - good luck in finding things out :D01:49
lcuk:D my basic map jpeg did this for me in berlin - i hope something proper works for the next summit ;)01:49
yacoob(yeah, it's in .pl :/)01:49
macoutewho writes polish? no-one undestands that one :)01:49
lardmanhmm Polish, one of the many languages I don't (yet ;)) know01:49
macoutei think you should start with Helsinkis tram/metro/bus-guide :)01:50
lcuki-Métro is a route calculator on (almost) every subway system in the world and many tram & bus systems too!01:50
lcukonline version there lardman01:50
macouteactually, its already ready as a www-service, so coding would be simple01:50
macoutethough offline-usage would need something more01:50
yacoobwhoa, metro has improved since!01:51
yacoob...too bad I don't need it anymore :)01:51
yacoob(nor Przewodas)01:51
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yacoobDublin's bus system is most hellish abomination I've ever seen, and thus unusable, DART is simple enough to keep it in my head.01:52
macouteyacoob: actually, is that some official page?01:52
yacoob(plus, I've made a stylish mac osx widget to display next trains :)01:52
macouteah, no :)01:52
yacoobmacoute, yup. That's author's page. I don't think it's being developed.01:52
macouteyacoob: yup, i thought it was something like the official pages of your public transportation company01:53
yacoobahhh, no no no :)01:53
macoutebut i like this one
yacoobbest kind of cooperation I've ever seen from transportation company was 'well... we don't really mind those geeks scraping our website and putting data offline'01:54
macoutein finnish, but so simple that you dont need to know any finnish :)01:54
yacoobIn one case they've even provided csv dumps of data01:54
macouteon below, you can have your own routes presaved, the red square is exception in traffic, and then there is from and where fields01:55
lcukits quite common yacoob, people like to know timetables and routes and getting more folks informed means they are usable01:55
lardmanlooks like i-metro also scrapes the data for Helsinki01:55
lcukscrapes or is given01:55
macoutefor mac?01:55
lardmanscrapes for the online version I guess01:55
lcukfor web or wap01:56
yacooblardman, in my opinion having offline planner is way better, but that's only me01:56
macoutethe Helsinki metro does not need any help :D01:56
lardmanbut will need to look at the html/js and see what there is to see01:56
macoutethere is one track west, other one east01:56
lardmanyacoob: yes, but time consuming for whichever city01:56
lcukits cold up there01:56
yacooblardman, how about downloading metro, and using their data?01:56
lcukcos they offer a service01:57
macoutelcuk: our stations are mostly underground plus the metros go every 3-6 minutes01:57
lcukif you want the data i assume they will tell you to go upstream01:57
macoutebut imetro offers metro+tram+ferries+buses01:57
macouteso thats cool01:57
macouteim sure that helsinki will give you all the data you need :)01:57
lardmanyacoob: yes, that's an interesting option01:58
yacoobthey might not like it... at the same time, you might just talk to them about coding maemo version.01:58
yacoobin any case, I need some sleep, or I'll be zombiewalking tomorrow.01:59
lcukb) i-MetrO is also available to other web services providers. These providers must first obtain a written (e-mail) authorization from the "AUTHORS" to include the "PRODUCT" in their own service.01:59
lardmansame here, night01:59
lcuki-MetrO may then be integrated in an external service, provided that a) its use remains entirely free of charge for the end user, b) no revenue may be derived, directly or indirectly from the integration01:59
lcukgnite lard01:59
lardmanlcuk: offline routing would be good, with updates online is available01:59
lardmananyway, I'll look into it tomorrow, time for bed01:59
lardmannight all01:59
lcukyes - they do have an offline version02:00
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macoutelcuk: who? imetro?02:02
macoutehmm, sounds cool02:02
macoutebut to bed i go02:02
lcukgnite macoute02:03
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leachim6I can't get canola to start02:33
leachim6I installed it from maemo-extras02:34
leachim6I click it ... and it spins for a while, then...nothing02:34
* pupnik hasn't used canola yet02:35
pupnikcan you maybe start it from the command-line - see if it spits-out an error leachim6 ?02:36
leachim6yeah, I'll do that...sorry for being so vague02:36
GeneralAntillescanola -vvv02:36
Mouseypupnik IS MISSING OUT02:37
* Mousey is avid canola <3er02:37
l7canola's so slow for me02:38
l7it has a nice podcast interface though02:38
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lcukdoes canola get faster after its completely scanned all your media?02:38
GeneralAntillesIt scans at startup.02:39
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't scan when in-use02:39
lcukwhat if i plug in memory card with it runnin?02:39
lcukor run it as soon as its installed02:39
pupnikomg!  the windows XP task-bar refusing to rehide bug STILL HASNT BEEN FIXED!02:40
* pupnik falls all overhimself laughing02:40
pupnikand i thought i was slacking...02:40
lcukare you sure thats a bug in yourversion pupnik - with a MID doesnt it make sense that you cant just swipe near it02:40
pupnikdunno lcuk - i've been dealing with the win taskbar refusing to stay hidden for like 5 years or so02:41
lcukdesigned for touchscreen - they were ahead of their time :P ;)02:42
GeneralAntilleslcuk, probably nothing.02:43
GeneralAntillesBut I'm not the right person to ask.02:43
lcuki simply recall it not havin any media and i couldnt find a way to make it show up even after i selected the right base path02:44
lcukl7, you say you like the podcasts, do you have a central place to download them into?  is there any way to get at itunes data from wifi/usb nokia?02:45
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, they're just RSS feeds02:53
GeneralAntillesAdd the RSS URL to whatever aggregator you want to use.02:53
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lcukyeah, but unlike the fruity kind you have to manage them and select them and download them from tablet - instead of it just being a quick sync operation02:53
GeneralAntillesSeen gpodder?02:54
lcukno, but i will if it can do even some of what i have just said02:54
GeneralAntillesLook at the name.02:55
* GeneralAntilles is pissy from his nap.02:56
GeneralAntillesI'm tempted to cook up a whole thing of bacon and slap it on some bread02:56
GeneralAntillesI know I'll die of a coronary, though.02:56
lcukits called a pig02:56
lcukand you can never die from bacon overdose02:56
GeneralAntillesWell, that "pig" is currently sliced into small strips and vacuum-sealed in plastic in my fridge. :P02:57
lcukif you do happen to die, you simply know you used too much bread - next time use thin crust02:57
GeneralAntillesI don't have any lettuce, anyway.02:57
lcuki had a mega BT for same reason at weekend02:57
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lcuklettuce just hides the bacon02:58
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lcukwell that just stomps on my parade03:00
lcukits not for windows, but ill get it once i get a linux desktop :) thanks for the heads up GeneralAntilles03:00
GeneralAntillesJust use it on the tablet.03:01
lcukthats what i want to get away from - i would prefer some nice front end to manage my media and filter down what i want for a trip03:02
lcukpupnik, :D:D:D03:02
GeneralAntilleslcuk, then just grab whatever Windows podcast manager you want and use a cronjob to sftp it to the tablet.03:03
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lcuknot exactly the interface i had in mind GeneralAntilles  ;)03:05
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GeneralAntillesIt does exactly what you're after03:06
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GeneralAntillesYou don't even have to do anything once it's set up.03:06
lcukthought the backend may very well end up working that way, i doubt its usable by my 6 year old03:06
* lcuk is looking for a more rounded experience03:07
GeneralAntillesOnce it's set up03:07
* lcuk would like to incorporate jaffas encode thingy and podcasts and music searches and sketching stuff and photos etc03:07
GeneralAntillesYour 6-year-old just has to add his favorite feeds to the manager. :P03:07
GeneralAntillesPodcasts are rarely outside of the tablet's capabilities.03:07
lcukpodcasts are just music files?03:08
GeneralAntillesOr video files.03:08
GeneralAntillesIt's just an RSS feed that points at media files.03:08
GeneralAntillesThere's no magic to them.03:08
lcukheh yeah - most of the podcasts i hear about are audio03:09
* lcuk listens to a lot of radio03:09
lcukyeah i know technical aspects - just didnt engage brain03:10
lcukso jaffas convert WILL be useful03:10
GeneralAntillesLike I said, most podcasts don't really tax the tablet's video playback abilities03:10
GeneralAntillesMaybe some of the h.264 stuff03:11
GeneralAntillesbut that's not particularly common.03:11
lcukyeah, but its also capacity03:11
lcuki have perhaps 500mb free and available - i could get my weekly casts into there easily and listen at work or wherever03:11
lcukbut you might want to put 32gb03:12
GeneralAntillesWell, are you watching video podcasts?03:12
GeneralAntillesAn hour-long MP3 podcast is about 25MB03:12
lcukno i dont watch much video on device - prefer big tv03:13
lcuktechnically i dont listen often, but if it can be configured and managed easily i might: tracy uses itunes downstairs and it works (she has a tiny 1gb nano but a massive collection)03:14
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GeneralAntillespupnik, well, I've got a 59 minute podcast from This American Life ah 64Kbps that's 27MB.03:14
lcukcompression varies03:15
pupnikbtw, Lew Rockwell has done a great series of podasts relevant to the financial crisis
lcukdepends on content03:15
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it's not variable compression.03:15
pupnikwho has xcalc handy03:15
lcukGeneralAntilles, 1minute of silence takes a lot less disk space than 1 minute of busy noise03:16
pupniknot with CBR encoding03:16
pupnikCBR = constant bitrate03:17
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it's constant bitrate. . . .03:17
GeneralAntillesYou're thinking of VBR03:17
GeneralAntillesWhich isn't what this is.03:17
lcukim thinking of mp303:18
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GeneralAntillesYou're thinking of a VBR encoded MP303:18
GeneralAntillesWhich isn't all MP3s03:18
lcukall that happens with CBR and VBR is that the resolution and available fidelity changes03:18
lcukbut the fact remains a silent piece of music is more compressable than a noisy one03:19
pupnika rare case where lcuk is wrong.... /me enjoys03:19
lcuk:) im not wrong03:19
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pupniki know it's more compressable03:20
pupnikthe fact is, that a cbr encoded mp3 will consume a fixed bitrate per second of audio03:20
pupniker, not strictily true - but mostly true03:20
pupnikthere is the 'bit bucket' which allows for some variation in even cbr streams, but that's minor03:21
lcukits exactly the same as jpeg in this regard03:21
lcuka jpeg with low bitrate/quality setting looks blocky and ugly/sounds horrid and loses detail, but silence is silence and compresses to almost nothing (repeat this block 200 times) vs make one block to be 27432734234 and the next to be 2384283462 and the next to be 23874237403:22
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pupniklcuk, what does "constant bitrate" mean?03:23
lcukthat the resolution does not change for the duration of the track03:23
pupnik'resolution' is not an accurate term in this context.  the word is 'bitrate'03:24
lcukthat does not indicate how many blocks you send03:24
lcukresolution is - its the number of bits you can use to store the waveform data for a particular instance in time03:24
pupnikok, so we have a 128kb/s CBR mp3 stream.  how many bits does that use in 2 seconds?03:24
pupnikwhether encoding a sinewave or white noise...03:25
lcukso ALL music that is compressed with that 128kb CBR file that last 2 minutes will always be the same length?03:25
pupniksame size yes03:25
pupnikvbr is an enhancement to mp3 that does what you describe03:26
pupniklowers the actual data rate to match the information in the source03:26
pupnikman it's great to be back online...03:28
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GeneralAntillespupnik, is the world a happier place yet?03:32
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pupnikthe world in my head is, bigtimtime03:33
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pupnikexcepting the fact that i'm on winxp at the moment, and the fucking status bar just decided to obscure my text entry field03:33
pupnikwhat have you been up to GeneralAntilles  - looks like you're a real motor in the maemo world now03:33
GeneralAntillesCrackin' the whip and making things happen. ;)03:34
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GeneralAntillesWell, until important people disappear right from under my nose.03:34
pupnikthappy to hear that... sounds fun03:34
* GeneralAntilles shakes his fist in the air at jott and guenther.03:34
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pupnikcracking the whip
GeneralAntillesWith WinXP?03:36
GeneralAntillesI'd figure you to be the absolute last person to ever use WinXP.03:36
pupnikwas preinstalled...  testing the new hardware atm03:37
pupnikneed to be reminded how much i hate it every few months03:37
GeneralAntillesI haven't been reminded in a while03:37
GeneralAntilleslast time I used it seriously was in high school03:37
GeneralAntillesI just have to take the occasional exam in Firefox on XP at school lately.03:38
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lcuk ;)03:44
lcuka raw uncompressed frame of mp3 data at a particular bitrate consumes a fixed amount of memory, but prior to writing to disk it is encoded using huffman03:45
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lcuksorry pupnik :P i just had to follow my thinking - i knew huffman was involved somewhere along the way and has the effect i described03:48
pupnikthanks, i did not know that.03:50
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* lcuk resolves to leave mp3 coding to lardman03:52
lcukanyway, bedtime - gnite pupnik, GeneralAntilles03:53
pupniklcuk, look how much cbr bitrate varies in *practice* though...
pupnikok gnite03:53
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lcukpupnik, i was wrong.  the frame size is not changed by the compression04:09
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* GeneralAntilles waits for the trademark page to load.04:20
GeneralAntillesI should get a stopwatch to time these things.04:20
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joyiousHi, is the ALSA driver usable on N810 ?04:44
joyiousI'm trying to using the ALSA driver but no sound output04:45
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RST38h8-year-old loses control of submachine gun, suicides: "I gave permission for him to fire the Uzi. I watched several other children and adults use it. It's a small weapon, and Christopher was comfortable with guns. There were larger machine guns with much more recoil, and we avoided those."07:46
RST38hGeneral, that is another rock into your backyard =)07:47
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camel_liuhi, everybody07:48
camel_liuMy N800 cannot connect to maemo extras, report '302 Found'07:50
camel_liuWhen I installed maemo SDK, I met same problem.07:50
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camel_liuCould anyone give a help?07:53
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camel_liujohnx, How can I avoid the problem of '302 Found'?07:56
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l7has anyone noticed that battery life estimates don't refresh until you reboot?08:06
GeneralAntillesThat's not true.08:07
GeneralAntillesRebooting is just a huge power drain.08:07
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l7hrm, my tablet was showing 8 days 5 hours just a moment ago08:11
l7after rebooting it shows 10 days / 7 hours08:11
GeneralAntillesThe battery applet is mostly just wildly inaccurate.08:12
l7i wish it would just show an mAh figure08:13
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GeneralAntillesWhich means something to exactly what percentage of tablet owners?08:14
GeneralAntillesFeel free to code up a replacement battery applet.08:14
l7i seem to recall a thread about improving it several months ago08:15
l7the wildly fluctuating hours figure is way too confusing08:16
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l7i think 10 hours = 100% and 5 hours = 50%, but who knows08:17
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* RST38h wonders if it is possible to port Ubuntu battery applet to maemo =)08:18
GAN800Does it do retu?08:19
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GAN800I'm not sure how abstracted the battery stuff is.08:19
l7what's retu?08:21
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XTLl7: one of the custom chips in the NIT IIRC08:29
XTL"Fred" (as in Flintstone)08:30
GeneralAntillesRelated to bb508:31
GeneralAntillesPower and security stuff (on cellular devices, anyway)08:32
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camel_liuMaemo Extras and Nokia Catalog in Apllication Catalog failed to refresh (302 Found), other two, Nokia System Software Updatres andNokia Catalog(3rd party software)  are ok. Any idea?08:43
RST38hGAN: it probably just reads from /sys/devices or whatever passes for that in generic Linux08:43
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RST38hGAN: So with some tweaking it just may work on Maemo08:44
RST38hok, ttg to work08:45
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camel_liuCan I use http proxy on application manager?08:47
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qwerty12The only 3rd party battery status app I saw was KotCzarny's :/ (and one that reads it from BME directly but that is internal to Nokia)08:49
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* Stskeeps looks around09:08
qwerty12ello Stskeeps09:09
StskeepsGeneralAntilles, qwerty12:
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, TF? I see that the hacker versions are updated weekly... /sarcasm09:13
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i'm not entirely sure what it's about but i might give some input to that stuff :P09:13
Stskeepsanyone got a jaiku invite to give, if it works like that? :P09:14
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GeneralAntillesThink it's open these days.09:15
vincenzo88Hello all09:15
GeneralAntillesSlightly odd thread.09:15
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i think it's in terms of using a desktop UI instead of a mobile UI, as i understand it09:16
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, which hardly seems the point of Deblet to me.09:16
Stskeepswell, and that it might actually be an alternative to maemo.. but it's also a proof of concept of tablet possibilities, which is what i plan to write on the jaiku when i get an invite :P09:17
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Stskeepsi'd much rather see a change in maemo than work a mobile distribution from scratch, less work for me :P09:17
* GeneralAntilles doesn't have one to give.09:17
Stskeepsthink i'm just waiting for greylisting to let it through :P09:17
Stskeepsthis was something qgil mailed to me directly though, so i guess it's mandatory to comment ;)09:19
GeneralAntillesI'm posting something.09:19
camel_liuAnybody knows about the '302 found' problem of Application Catalog in N800?09:21
Stskeepsif you had SDK download problems, they would show in same way in app catalog dl's09:22
Stskeepssame server09:22
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, who do I want to name-drop for Deblet09:23
GeneralAntillesyou, johnx, qwerty12, ...?09:23
qwerty12_N800Not me I'd assume :)09:24
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: well you did contribute in some ways :P09:24
GeneralAntillesEh, I'm making a point.09:24
GeneralAntillesThey're sure to recognize your name, anyway.09:24
* GeneralAntilles just found that.09:24
GeneralAntillesThe font size on that site just jumped up by a ridiculous amount.09:25
qwerty12_N800Ok then, I don't mind but i only made a few tiny contributions09:25
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* qwerty12_N800 doesn't mind if you mention my name ; I just thought it would sound like me taking a lot of credit because I didn't do that much :)09:26
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GeneralAntillesWell, mvo seems to think the Deblet people are leaving the tablet community.09:27
Stskeepsinitially maybe but i'm starting to get a understanding of the good things about maemo, too09:27
Stskeepsa "standard debian" won't -ever- get sane power consumption09:28
GeneralAntillesBut you can certainly have good power consumption while maintaining enough library compatibility to make porting easy, no?09:29
Stskeepswell, there's a lot of different things involved09:30
Stskeepsdebian is still at typical sysv init runlevels and such09:30
Stskeepswhich is good for a server, but not always for mobile devices09:30
Stskeepssome things you simply don't need when you're offline/system idle/etc09:30
GeneralAntillesSure, but certainly there are a lot of broken compatibility areas that have no reason to be broken, right?09:30
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GeneralAntillesdneary's trying to peg the logo license on me. . . .09:35
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: good post, ta09:36
* GeneralAntilles wishes mvo would come back to us here.09:36
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Stskeepshonestly, we needs a "Who's who in Maemo"09:36
* Stskeeps has very little overview who works on what09:37
GeneralAntillesdneary worked on it for a while09:37
GeneralAntillesIt stalled out, though.09:37
GeneralAntillesWe kinda decided it'd be better to leave it to individuals and their accounts.09:37
GeneralAntillesFeel free to ask me if you need to know, though. :P09:38
* GeneralAntilles hates when interesting things pop up on Jaiku09:39
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GeneralAntillesI can't bring myself to check it often enough because it's usually just spam.09:39
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GeneralAntillesYou know, 2 days and we already have a half-dozen good patches together for h-a-m09:43
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GeneralAntillesI wonder why that didn't happen a year ago09:43
qwerty12Yerga pulled out a nice surprise :D09:45
GeneralAntillesMr. Patch09:45
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* Stskeeps continues waiting for jaiku to send an invite since they claim unlimited invites atm..09:55
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Stskeepsthis is why i prefer irc..09:55
qwerty12You're biased because you made a ircd :P09:55
GeneralAntillesNah, Jaiku still sucks.09:56
GeneralAntillesIt's like IRC, but more schizophrenic.09:56
GeneralAntillesand tape-delayed.09:56
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* qwerty12 has never used Jaiku so I have no idea what it is like. But I do like IRC anyway :)09:57
GeneralAntillesIt's an amalgamation of forums and IRC.09:57
GeneralAntillesBut it's harder to track interesting threads than forums and no live like IRC.09:58
macoute..but its more live than forums09:59
macouteits like sms sent to interwebs09:59
Stskeepstwitter for professional forum users? :P09:59
macouteit actually IS sms sent to interwebs, though nowadays you can use normal data connection09:59
macoutei think jaiku is from finland too09:59
macouteand i think i blogged about jaiku in its beta phase10:00
qwerty12Hmm, I dunno, I still see the tabletscene forums as useless :P10:02
GeneralAntillesThey are.10:02
Stskeepsoh, finally, an invite10:02
GeneralAntillesEspecially after krisse declared the tablets dead.10:02
qwerty12Heh :/10:02
GeneralAntillesWhich means, what, half of the answers on tablet scene wont be coming anymore? :P10:03
GeneralAntilles5 posts in the last 2 days10:03
qwerty12Lol :P. I think I only posted there a few times and got reprimanded for giving answers which are too "complex". :D10:03
* GeneralAntilles shakes his head.10:04
GeneralAntillesThough you do have a way of giving a lot of dangerous info in your answers. :P10:04
qwerty12But it's like brontide said, if the solution requires a xterm and there is no other way of doing it (apart from reflashing and that is pointless if it doesn't need to be done), then it's the way of the xterm :P10:05
qwerty12never! :P10:05
qwerty12Hehe, true, I think I get carried away sometimes... :P10:05
GeneralAntillesIt is what it is, but it does make me chuckle. :D10:05
GeneralAntillesI would say "Do x". qwerty12 would say "Do x, which does y, or you could do a and b, which also does y . . . and here's this thing about Red Pill." :P10:06
qwerty12Hehe, true :D10:06
qwerty12But I point people to dpkg now rather than red-pill so I must get points for that :D10:07
qwerty12Arg, mediawiki numbering of lists is weird >.<10:09
GeneralAntillesWhat're you doing?10:09
GeneralAntillesIf you need to insert code in between two item, you have to use HTML. :\10:10
GeneralAntilles<ol start="4">10:10
qwerty12Trying to fix the section I made on Modifying_the_root_image :/. I used ## which was wrong so I changed it to # which is now starting from one rather than 2 :/10:10
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GeneralAntillesWhat section?10:11
GeneralAntillesMaking the actuall jffs2 image?10:11
GeneralAntillesOne sec10:11
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qwerty12Thank you10:13
GeneralAntillesChange the indentation on the <pre>'s if you want.10:13
* GeneralAntilles breached 1000 edits yesterday.10:13
* GeneralAntilles wants his karma.10:13
qwerty12Ouch, 1000 :O?10:13
GeneralAntillesProbably 200 of those are appending categories to the bottom of articles. :D10:14
X-FadeGeneralAntilles has about the same amount of edits as the automated spambots have ;)10:14
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qwerty12For me, I'd still count that as a feat because I get tired doing the same thing :P10:14
GeneralAntillesThankfully my signal-to-noise ratio is much better. :P10:15
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, yeah? Check the recent changes page in the sidebar. ;)10:15
* qwerty12 eyes are transfixed to the page10:16
qwerty12There should be something like /me's10:16
GeneralAntillesI've started adding some more categories.10:16
GeneralAntillesI agree10:16
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, get on that?10:16
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qwerty12~lart mozilla for making me log in to install a simple extension >.<10:20
* infobot forces mozilla to use Outlook Express for making me log in to install a simple extension >.<10:20
qwerty12Though I praise the Open In Browser extension :P10:21
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qwerty12Hey, GA, mind if I update the Rotation page? The osso-software-version-unlocked packages on that page are outdated if we are talking about them with regards to the latest SSU10:23
l7does that extension work in osso xterm?10:23
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, do it.10:23
qwerty12l7: You mean to be able to select http links to open in the browser?10:23
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: sorry, what?10:24
Stskeepsboss came in10:24
GeneralAntillesMake IRC do /me's.10:24
l7qwerty12: yes, i notice it underlines stuff, but does not open10:25
qwerty12l7: I humbly point you to : :)10:25
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: /me's of what?10:25
l7drat i'm still slow on the thumbboard10:26
GeneralAntillesSo you can do possessive actions.10:26
* GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode.10:26
qwerty12Heh, my cat once locked us out of the living room :P10:27
Stskeepseither my mind is completely blurred from my nasty cold or I don't see a problem? /me works just fine on irc10:27
macoutefu***ng /me. theres actually NO real reason to use it, ever.10:27
l7qwerty12: ah awesome, thx10:27
macouteshould i ignore all the /me's? :D10:27
* qwerty12 slaps macoute with a smelly tuna fish10:28
GeneralAntillesSometimes actions speak louder than words.10:28
RST38hGeneral: Must...Kill...All Humans... ?10:28
macouteGeneralAntilles: when?10:28
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macouteGeneralAntilles: you mean "10:39  * GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode.10:28
macouteor infobot10:28
macouteor 10:26  * GeneralAntilles wants his karma.10:28
GeneralAntillesRST38h, nah, this is "sprint from one end to the apartment and back over and over".10:28
macouteyou got the point :)10:29
qwerty12macoute: infobot has it's uses as well10:29
GeneralAntillesYou like trolling?10:29
infobotqwerty12 meant: macoute: infobot has its uses as well10:29
l7i keep wonderinng what happened to the handy CTRL+N and CTRL+P buttons from the 2007 osso_xterm too10:29
RST38hGeneral: Glass stormdoors are known to cure this behaviour10:29
GeneralAntillesRST38h, I've done that10:29
GeneralAntillesbut I've never seen my cat do it.10:29
RST38hI have once10:30
GeneralAntillesNot something one does twice.10:30
RST38hThe cat has been kept outside for months (we were afraid she would be run over by a car)10:30
macouteGeneralAntilles: well no, but i really think so. if one can't speak about himself without using /me, i think the problem is more in linguistic skills than anywhere else.10:30
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* macoute really thinks so10:30
RST38hSo when she saw the new stormdoor she decided not to take chances - accelerated from about 10+ meters away10:30
macoutebut ive had this conversation here already :)10:31
GeneralAntillesIt's unhealthy to get worked up over small things.10:32
* qwerty12 cunN0t $pE@K EnGl!$|-|10:32
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RST38hcuntnot, yea10:32
qwerty12yeah, I was thinking of typing cunt10:33
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: added a comment - regarding GPL zealotry i just wanted to indicate deblet wasn't about that clearly too, you seem to have the right understanding :)10:36
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, it's my job to understand. :D10:37
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* GeneralAntilles spots Stskeeps.10:37
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Stskeepsoh, neat, they put up more stuff on the alignment wiki10:39
* qwerty12 hopes I won't have to apply that diff to mvo 2.1.20 diablo h-a-m branch10:40
GeneralAntillesHonestly, despite whatever RST38h says (:P), I don't think Nokia management much cares about what libraries the platform ships nor what it's based on.10:41
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i think they may just be directly happy to get some input on fremantle.. i'm not entirely sure they've started the OS work yet10:41
GeneralAntillesI think the bigger issue is pointing Maemo Software in the right location.10:41
X-FadeMy feeling about this discussion is that the community should really look at real end users and not only hardcore hackers.10:42
GeneralAntillesFrom the standpoint of?10:42
X-FadeThe only thing that will get us anywhere is big number sales.10:42
GeneralAntillesWell, a platform discussion is a platform discussion10:43
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't really involve end users10:43
X-FadeWe don't want te forget that ;)10:43
GeneralAntillesbeyond, perhaps, opening them up to more software10:43
StskeepsX-Fade: we shouldn't underestimate passionate users either as ways to attract people to buy a tablet10:43
GeneralAntilleseither through better compatibility or easier porting.10:43
GeneralAntillesThere is something to be said for winning over the local geek.10:43
GeneralAntillesThe "go to geek"10:43
X-FadeStskeeps: If Nokia is going to aim to the milions of users. How many hardcore hackers do you think there will be.10:44
GeneralAntillesThe UI and end-user discussion is really a separate one.10:44
StskeepsX-Fade: well, considering the netbook market exploding a little bit these days.. netbook in your pocket for instance10:45
X-FadeUsers don't care about debian, opensource, whatever. They just want a cool device, with a cool interface and easy access to cool software.10:45
X-FadeWhat we want is something different ;)10:45
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, which is fine, but unrelated to this discussion.10:45
StskeepsX-Fade: maybe the thing about debian, open source, yadda yadda is incentive for the people who'd develop the platform and apps10:46
GeneralAntillesRoope can worry about slick UIs to entice users.10:46
Stskeepsi mean10:46
Stskeepsless screaming at scratchbox when you want to port some cairo support library10:46
Stskeepsthat's good, i guess10:46
GeneralAntillesThere's a lot to be said for happy developers.10:46
GeneralAntillesWithout developers, you have no users.10:46
X-FadeStskeeps: Sure, easier development methods need to happen.10:47
Stskeepsand the reason i'm even pushing ahead with this is because i know it will help me in my workplace and in my own tablet use10:47
Stskeepsfor development purposes10:48
X-FadeAnd every unneeded hurdle needs to be removed.10:48
Stskeepsi mean, i got upset at that i couldn't set up a simple rsync every night of my xournal notes easily10:48
Stskeepssince i'm from a unix upbringing from when i was 8 :P10:49
X-FadeStskeeps: Well, I guess running cron + rsync is an option ;)10:49
StskeepsX-Fade: you'd think so10:49
Stskeepsbut when the tablet goes into deep sleep it misses the time and fails to do it10:50
Stskeepsand had problems with the retu enabled once too10:50
X-FadeStskeeps: Yeah, I think you need to use alarmd for that.10:50
Stskeeps(which used alarmd)10:50
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X-FadeAs that one sets hardware wakeups.10:50
* GeneralAntilles can't imagine what's going on with the alarmd sources.10:51
GeneralAntillesDavid fails at releasing sources.10:51
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qwerty12mvo really should push 2.1.20 to ssu soon when it's finished. I just tried it on my tablet and the speed boost is brilliant even in red pill mode is brilliant.10:52
GeneralAntillesSpeed boost?10:52
qwerty12-is brilliant10:52
qwerty12Yeah, I'm seeing packages *much* faster10:52
GeneralAntillesHuh, what was changed?10:52
GeneralAntillesand have you compiled it for release yet? :P10:52
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: There is some source available here:
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Although that seems to be a one-time drop.10:53
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qwerty12GeneralAntilles: It's usuable straight from checking out but I guess I can do a unofficial release with some mods :)10:53
qwerty12Though I don't know why mvo has disabled the update repository button at the main screen now in red pill mode >.<10:54
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qwerty12Mvo's red pill changes are in this release by default10:54
* GeneralAntilles still doesn't get allnameswereout.10:55
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hellwolf-n810why my n810 cannot remember my background image setting10:57
hellwolf-n810I changed a picture, but after I reboot,it reset to default one10:58
* Stskeeps curses power cuts10:58
* GeneralAntilles gives Stskeeps a big UPS.10:58
Stskeepsruined my perfectly healthy 90 day xp uptime10:58
qwerty12XP? Uptime? 90 days? Aiiii10:59
[zeus]it's a magic!10:59
Stskeepsand if thunderbird is going to die like last time now, i'm going to go on a rampage10:59
RST38hNot touched and disconnected from the network?11:00
Stskeepssane setup11:00
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t_s_oas in, 99% turned off ;)11:08
* Stskeeps ponders idly how fast his 69m ubuntu image boots.11:13
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: regarding people, mvo - i've seen him with h-a-f, but does he do other stuff?11:15
GeneralAntillesHe's basically the h-a-m programmer.11:16
qwerty12"  /* XXX - the code allows the retry of failed downloads, but I (mvo)11:16
qwerty12           forgot to get the needed localized UI strings, so we have11:16
qwerty12           to disable that functionality for now.11:16
qwerty12  */"11:16
Stskeepsi understand, qwerty1211:16
qwerty12Lol, basically, when something fails, we have to close the error message and wait for the list to refresh. mvo has code that lets you retry it but he forgot to localise the strings11:17
qwerty12lol :P11:17
Stskeepswe need a Maemo WTFs thread on iTT11:17
Stskeepslike thedailywtf.com11:17
qwerty12GeneralAntilles: You'll be glad to know that in the official h-a-m, the user won't be able to even set red pill as a permanent mode :P. But as this is a mod version and I am a self-confessed user of red pill mode, I need to have the option to set it in any patched versions :P11:18
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Robot101I can't blame him, its very hard to get ui specs changed11:20
* GeneralAntilles really doesn't get allnameswereout11:20
GeneralAntillesHe seems to be against multitasking11:20
qwerty12Yeah, It is unfair for me to criticise seeing as I can't even do much with code anyway11:20
Jaffaqwerty12: It's a red pill setting as to whether red pill is permanent11:21
GeneralAntillesRobot101, which is unfortunate.11:21
Robot101I tried filing enhancement requests in bugzilla and got no end of pain. They were invalidated and I was referred to a tool I can't access.11:21
Jaffaqwerty12: I really wouldn't be happy if you released an interim version where red-pill was still permanent by default ;-)11:21
Jaffa(and what are you using red pill *for*?!)11:21
qwerty12Jaffa: I know, I never set it as default but I give the people the option to set it as permanent with the DANGER/ACHTUNG string I added on.11:22
qwerty12Jaffa: I like it, plus, I know what I'm doing with red pill :)11:22
GeneralAntillesHide it in gconf or something?11:22
qwerty12GeneralAntilles: Actually I guess that is mvo's plan, you can always set the option manually by editing .osso/hildon-application-manager11:23
qwerty12Fucking hell, I swear when I reinstall Ubuntu, I'm switching to Kubuntu. Nautillus has to be the biggest POS ever.11:26
t_s_oGeneralAntilles: cant help in the understanding department, i find most usability talk way over the deep end...11:27
qwerty12RST38h: I kill it at least 10 times a day because it fails to show me what's new in the folder even by refreshing it manually.11:27
* GeneralAntilles can't imagine a bigger PoS than Finder.11:27
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qwerty12Even explorer.exe does a better job >.<11:27
t_s_obut then i think the same about most things learned from studying fellow humans, randomness in action imo...11:27
* t_s_o is addicted to konqueror11:28
macouteqwerty12: you should file a bug11:28
macouteit shouldnt do that11:28
GeneralAntillesProblem is, it seems to be mostly mouth diarrhea11:28
qwerty12macoute: hmm, I guess, this is my 3rd install with that bug...11:28
qwerty12t_s_o: I will be soon :P11:28
macouteqwerty12: and you do know that you can install konqueror or some other file manager to Gnome as well. :D11:29
macouteno need to reinstall the whole os :D11:29
t_s_oim a bit sad that kde4 follows gnome in the quest for usability and introduced dolphin. nice file manager, but imo a bleak relative of konqueror ;)11:29
Stskeepshm, gst-plugins-dsp0.10, didn't notice that was OSS11:29
qwerty12macoute: Yeah, I've done it before I'm running out of space now which is one of the reasons I want to reinstall :)11:29
qwerty12~lart myself for giving more space to windows.11:31
* infobot squeezes myself till myself turns blue like papa smurf for giving more space to windows.11:31
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macouteqwerty12: you do use LVM? ;)11:33
t_s_oon note of dolphin tho, i strikes me that the system of a main file window with a sidebar of "bookmarks" could be more effective then the current tree used in maemo, at least for when one is picking a file to open in some app...11:34
qwerty12macoute: Just a plain ext3 partition. I'm no advanced linux user and stick with basics *grin*11:34
t_s_oheh, seems like that "future" thread is heading for name calling hell quickly...11:35
qwerty12If anyone wants to try h-a-m 2.1.20, I've patched it with Yerga's repository display patch, Jaffa's toggable legal warning patch, show dependencies tab in blue pill, enable updating repo's button at main screen & Settings replaced with Settings... :
qwerty12It's an unreleased version so as usual, try at your own risk...11:38
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johnxvery interesting11:45
* johnx reads, makes curry11:46
GeneralAntillesThanks, qwerty12.11:47
qwerty12No problems :)11:47
X-FadeI'm wondering if things like that should go in extras-devel ;)11:47
X-FadeWith a -community tagged to it orso ;)11:48
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aquatixqwerty12: i can also recommend xubuntu11:48
aquatixor just use Thunar on ubuntu/gnome11:48
qwerty12X-Fade: It's an unreleased version though :/. It's why I've only posted the link here.11:48
X-Fadeqwerty12: -community-preview then ;)11:49
qwerty12aquatix: Yeah, XFCE is nice but I do prefer GNOME to it for some reason :/. But Thunar is good, I forgot about that, thanks11:49
qwerty12X-Fade: Would you remove it when it's officially pushed via SSU?11:49
qwerty12s/when/if I guess11:50
aquatixqwerty12: yw :)11:50
* aquatix likes xfce4 because of the keyboard friendlyness11:51
t_s_ohmm, now i find myself pondering that deblet may well keep my tablet alive long after nokia have given up any pretense of continued support11:51
Stskeepst_s_o: i'm trying a bit to make nokia settle on a base that they build their tablet supports on, that's not as static-per-tablet-version11:52
* aquatix pictures an ancient t_s_o playing around with his tablet around the end of the century11:52
Stskeepsso continued tablet life would be possible11:52
* GeneralAntilles still wants osv-c.11:52
t_s_oaquatix: i still have a nes here somewhere so...11:52
* GeneralAntilles wonders if he could convince Stskeeps to work on it if it would help push Nokia in the right direction. :P11:52
johnxpost-Nokia support has always been a part of the debian-on-tablet projects :)11:53
aquatixt_s_o: :)11:53
aquatixt_s_o: our snes is dieing :(11:53
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'm not that interested in osv-c.. underlying stuff though11:53
Stskeepsi'd gladly hack on maemo if it was -actually- sane11:53
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, start filing bugs.11:53
GeneralAntillesand/or point me at issues and I'll file bugs.11:54
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i will, eventually, just need to get past these weeks at work and me being sick :P after these weeks i'm joining a project where we'll use tablets extensively11:54
Stskeepsand mobile environments11:54
johnxStskeeps, GeneralAntilles, before filing random bugs, maybe we should at least start a little informal wiki page of things that get in our ways11:54
GeneralAntillesjohnx, qgil started one.11:54
Stskeepsjohnx: nokia's pushing a bit11:55
johnxah, awesome, I'll add some things to it *evil laugh*11:55
GeneralAntillesPoint me in the right direction and I'll do the grunt work.11:55
Stskeepsjohnx: <- in 69m11:55
GeneralAntillesI don't really have the experience to pick everything out on my own.11:56
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johnxStskeeps, hot sauce. :D looks good. even has coreutils. :D11:56
Stskeepsjohnx: my next attempt is throwing a hildon desktop on it11:56
johnxGeneralAntilles, I think neither Stskeeps nor I had the knowledge until we actually went and bashed through getting Debian sorted out11:56
johnxStskeeps, I might do a couple tests with copied libs and LD_LIBRARY_PATH tonight11:57
Stskeepsjohnx: if i can make a 100mb or less hildon image.. there might be some interesting things11:57
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, fair enough, but now you do. :P11:58
johnxGeneralAntilles, just have to rewind my brain back to the moments when I encountered randomness11:58
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Stskeepsright, small meeting11:58
johnxunfortunately, the maemo-ized gtk is probably the biggest stumbling block and it's not going to go away easily...11:59
Stskeepsjohnx: they've noticed our notice in one of the bugs, atleast11:59
GeneralAntillesjohnx, finds like a good bug to start with. :P11:59
johnxGeneralAntilles, that's completely beyond me at this point. Also it's a question of where the core maemo-architecture is going. I don't get to make those decisions...12:01
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: johnx, sounds like a good bug to start with. :P12:01
johnxguess I should get on jaiku...12:03
GeneralAntillesjohnx, so not worth it.12:03
GeneralAntillesThis is, like, the only useful thread in months.12:03
johnxGeneralAntilles, I'd like to talk to mvo, though. He had exactly the same response as me to the idea of breaking from maemo...12:04
GeneralAntillesjohnx, -developers12:04
johnxso many things to follow :/12:06
GeneralAntillesDon't gotta tell me.12:06
* GeneralAntilles will aggregate more duplicate threads into his blog posts.12:07
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X-FadeAbout sections/categories again.. Are we able to get a list asap, so we can do something for the short-term?12:08
RST38hOh, yesss:
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, only thing I'm worried about is rushing it too quickly and ending up with something we want to modify.12:09
* RST38h is mildly satisfied that there are ate least *some* honest people left 12:09
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Well, short-term means fix it a bit now. So we have something for diablo.12:09
X-FadeAnd after that look at fremantle, which is longer term to me.12:10
RST38hWait, I stand corrected: he is Irish.12:10
GeneralAntillesAlright, what does the room think?
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RST38haccessories means nothing12:13
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RST38hreplace with utilities12:13
RST38hmultimedia is outdated as a term - just usemedia12:14
RST38hsettings is meaningless, merge them all into system12:14
GeneralAntillesPart of the idea is to sort of stick with upstream.12:15
RST38hthe rest is good, as far as this motley fool is concerned12:15
GeneralAntillesBut, yes, s/accessories/utilities/12:15
RST38hWell their categories are different anyway12:15
RST38hSettings is really a useless category for the tablets, they are System by nature12:16
GeneralAntillesThey're approaching it from a Start menu viewpoint and we're going from a package categories viewpoint12:16
RST38hAnd with Media, FreeDesktop seems to be confused - they have got three awkwardly named categories12:16
GeneralAntillesSo merging settings and system makes sense to me.12:16
RST38hJust have one (Media)12:16
RST38hAlternative: Have Media with two subcategories (is possible technically): Video and Audio12:17
infobotRST38h meant: Alternative: Have Media with two subcategories (if possible technically): Video and Audio12:17
GeneralAntillesYeah, media is less awkward12:18
GeneralAntillesThere was an issue with people thinking PIM stuff didn't belong under office.12:18
GeneralAntillesAny thoughts?12:18
GeneralAntillesI suggested maybe "Productivity", but that really doesn't cover everything under Office.12:18
RST38hMake a subcategory under Office12:18
RST38hSame for Mail, Web, and Chat (under Network)12:19
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XTLTaxonomies rarely work12:19
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RST38hTrue, but we are not hellbent on creating the complete taxonomy12:20
XTLJust a little handy order, yes.12:20
RST38hThe criterium for creating a subcategory is "if it covers >10% of category packages"12:20
GeneralAntillesI feel a bit like communication should be separated from network.12:20
aquatixRST38h: maybe look at how debian's categories are set up?12:20
RST38hAnd you can raise those 10% if you wish, to stay safe12:20
RST38hGeneral: yes, but people will complain :)12:21
GeneralAntillesaquatix: admin, comm, devel, doc, editors, electronics, embedded, games, gnome, graphics, hamradio, interpreters, kde, libs, libdevel, mail, math, misc, net, news, oldlibs, otherosfs, perl, python, science, shells, sound, tex, text, utils, web, x1112:21
GeneralAntillesYou tell me. :P12:21
aquatixGeneralAntilles: errrr :)12:21
RST38hGeneral: So I would rather hadthose subcategories under Network12:21
qwerty12I want a user/kde category!12:21
aquatixGeneralAntilles: i meant the menu stuff btw ;)12:21
aquatixor hm12:21
aquatixno wait, GeneralAntilles: the debian menu stuff is actually quite ok12:22
RST38hGeneral: Also, an option "View/Ignore Subcategories" may be helpful in the app manager12:22
aquatixcategories and such12:22
* GeneralAntilles feels like users might not get "Networking".12:22
qwerty12hullo lardman12:23
aquatixNetwork > Communication12:23
aquatixGeneralAntilles: it's quite nested though12:23
GeneralAntillesThis is my list:
Jaffa1) I don't think we should use sub-categories for anything other than application multi-packages until we have far too many packages to worry about it12:24
GeneralAntillesYeah, I'm with Jaffa.12:25
Jaffab) the i18n for "Networking" could be "Internet & Networkigng" - but can't just be "Internet" as that doesn't cover Samba clients, for example.12:25
GeneralAntillesThere's an argument to be made for not dropping categories from the existing list.12:25
GeneralAntillesWhat about Tools?12:26
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aquatixGeneralAntilles: hm, that table looks sane to me12:27
GeneralAntillesWhere does nano go?12:27
johnxyes, I suppose12:28
GeneralAntillesOK, fair enough.12:28
johnxthe only problem with those categories is if we'll use them for the menu too, they'll be kind of lopsided12:28
aquatixyeah, Utilities/Accessories sounds logical12:28
johnxsorry, fell off the inet crapped out12:28
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm sure Nokia has some plans for the application menu.12:29
JaffaAny time a problematic package comes up, I want it recorded in that page the consensus of where best it could go. Then, if it doesn't go anywhere, the categorisation needs improvement12:29
GeneralAntillesAaah, Jaffa, that sounds like a good plan.12:30
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GeneralAntillesSo, can we push this list to -developers as a proposed final list for Diablo?12:31
* Jaffa adds text editors under 'Utilities' and puts some different English i18n suggestions there12:32
melmothany idea where to find  liblocation-dev ? (i have been asked , and i have no access to scratchibox right now)12:33
melmothis it one of the package that comes with the sdk, or is it in a repo (if yes, wich one ? )12:34
lardmanwasn't someone saying yesterday that it's in the Nokia binaries install pack?12:35
lardmanin the SDK12:35
GeneralAntillesIt's not in the repo, anyway.12:35
qwerty12Yeah, lardman's right12:35
lardmanof course ;)12:35
qwerty12ls /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation*12:35
melmoththanks !12:36
GeneralAntillesAnybody? Shall we push to -developers?12:41
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X-FadeWe also need to decide what we want to do with these top-level categories. Push it to the packaging policy?12:42
GeneralAntillesWho is handling the policy?12:42
X-FadeOr have our own policy for the extras repositories.12:42
X-FadeI guess Eero's team.12:43
GeneralAntillesIt should go to the policy.12:43
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JaffaX-Fade/GeneralAntilles: did you see mvo's suggestion of not altering the deb if you want to change a package's section; but doing it in the repo's Packages index?12:45
GeneralAntillesYeah, that sounds workable to me.12:45
GeneralAntillesThough that doesn't stop Nokia from being evil.12:46
JaffaAn interesting idea (forcing it in the app mgr prevents in-house, proprietary, turnkey, bespoke systems internally)12:46
X-FadeJaffa: There is something like the 'overrides' file in the repo.12:46
GeneralAntillesNor random 3rd-party repos.12:46
X-FadeJaffa: I have to investigate if our tools use it.12:46
GeneralAntillesDoing it in the Application Manager also means less work for X-Fade. ;)12:46
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: But then the packages themselves stay crappy.12:47
GeneralAntillesTrue enough12:47
X-FadeAlthough we will give the developers warnings when they upload.12:47
GeneralAntillesHow does Debian enforce?12:47
X-FadeSo I guess most will change.12:47
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GeneralAntillesBad for us12:48
GeneralAntillesFor the time being, anyway.12:48
X-FadeYes, that is no option.12:48
X-FadeSo warnings is the best we can do.12:48
JaffaAlthough, I don't imagine it being too far off, given how nice everyone's been about putting stuff in extras.12:48
X-FadeAnd some positive encouragement.12:48
JaffaWarnings are only for the auto-builder, aren't they? There's the non-free stuff in Extras to worry about too12:48
GeneralAntillesemail the uploader?12:49
X-FadeJaffa: Yes, but we can mail the uploader there too. It is a bit more work, but doable.12:49
GeneralAntillesUnrelated, do you know who uploaded the ntp packages, X-Fade?12:49
X-FadeWe have the email for each uploader.12:49
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Which repo?12:49
GeneralAntillesExtras somewhere12:49
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GeneralAntillesThe maintainer line points to an Ubuntu mailing list.12:50
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X-Fadeopenntpd_3.9p1-4-maemo3 ?12:50
GeneralAntillesntp, ntpdate, and ntp-doc12:51
X-FadeSo marcell ;)12:52
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12, the repository line patch isn't perfect12:53
GeneralAntillesA package in Extras shows up as "Repository: diablo free"12:53
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: A package in Extras shows up as "Repository: diablo free"12:53
qwerty12GeneralAntilles: It's not my patch :P12:53
GeneralAntillesYeah, yerga's.12:53
GeneralAntillesOh, yerga's back.12:54
qwerty12I'm getting here.12:54
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't say
yergaGeneralAntilles, yeah12:54
GeneralAntillesJust screams "SDK repo!" to me.12:54
yergajus looking it at the moment12:54
GeneralAntillesYeah, qwerty12, package list updating feels way faster.12:55
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qwerty12Cool. I've updated the build I put up by testing how well it works by using floating point & O3. I've also made it remove the ignore packages from wrong domains messages it spits in the log in the hope of making it faster12:56
qwerty12From what I can see, it's a bit more faster but nothing to write home about12:57
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GeneralAntillesAlright, I'm sending off an email to -developers.13:02
RST38hGeneral: The Chinese guy came here again this morning - looks like whatever extras server services China has got a problem13:02
RST38hGeneral: It reports 302 (content moved?) and the app manager absolutely hates that13:03
qwerty12The Chinese government do dodgy stuff with their internet anyway :/13:03
RST38hI do not think their government is to blame this time13:03
johnxRST38h, there's a bug open, but it's gonna be hard to track down. definitely on akamai's side13:03
X-FadeMy guess that is just export control.13:04
johnxX-Fade, you can download via wget, but apt-get doesn't cope with 302 found redirects...13:04
X-FadeAh, so it is not because china is 'the enemy' :)13:05
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t_s_ohmm, attempting to pair bluemaemo with my desktop using kde seesm to bump into some issue. hcid claims "invalid pnp service record length"...13:12
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Just edited the page: "Media" is rubbish as a title for "user/multimedia" (or, the even worse, "user/media". Floppy disks, CD ROMs, PNGs, Word documents etc. all get called "media" at some point.13:13
GeneralAntillesI don't like multimedia at all.13:13
GeneralAntillesMusic certainly doesn't go in there.13:13
Jaffa"user/multimedia" is a sensible section name, IMNSHO. "Multimedia" or "Sound & Video" are also good for labels.13:13
Jaffat_s_o: "Games" are entertainment13:14
lardmanpeople know what multimedia is13:14
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Then the i18n key should be "Sound & Video"13:14
Jaffalardman: indeed - devices are advertised as "multimedia blah blah blah"13:14
GeneralAntillesBut I guess we've already got multimedia13:14
X-FadeAnother thing to consider is the length of these labels..13:14
RST38hJaffa: I vote for Media13:15
JaffaThe longest now are "Sound & Video", "Location & Navigation" and "Internet & Networking"13:15
X-FadeThey should be relatively short.13:15
RST38h"Multimedia" is 1) long and 2) sounds so 90s...13:15
JaffaRST38h: It's not a vote. It's a debate.13:15
X-Fade'communication' is the longest one we have currently.13:15
JaffaX-Fade: Why do they need to be short, if the presentation of the category list is better?13:15
RST38hWell, I do not much hope for a debate :)13:15
lardmanRST38h: but is understandable, unlike media, which sounds like newspapers and tv reporting to me13:15
X-FadeJaffa: Check you main menu ;)13:15
RST38hX-Fade: "Network" or "Net" is shorter13:15
JaffaX-Fade: ah, good point13:16
johnxRST38h, this is not a democracy :)13:16
RST38hjohnx: yea, that is what I meant :)13:16
lardmantrue, and his highness disagrees with us13:16
Jaffalardman: he's chair - not emperor ;-)13:16
X-FadeJaffa: I have no idea what the plans are for the menu, but it is something we need to consider at least.13:16
GeneralAntilleslardman, that's another blog from you.13:16
* Jaffa very strongly believes that "Media" is as generic as "Entertainment" or "Applications". And therefore useless in any form of taxonomy13:17
GeneralAntillesI did say earlier that we shouldn't change existing categories without good reason13:17
GeneralAntillesmultimedia already exists13:17
GeneralAntillesJaffa, how about twomedia. :P13:17
GeneralAntillesAnyway, not argument from me.13:17
X-FadeThe only person who sees that name is the packager, the rest sees the i18n variant.13:17
X-FadeWhich can be completely different.13:18
X-FadeLet's not get hung up on that.13:18
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Nokia'll go and put a smell-o-matic in the N900 just to prove you wrong.13:18
lardmanwho wants multimedia anyway, we only need two categories: dsp programming, other programming13:18
JaffaX-Fade: Exactly.13:18
Jaffalardman: :)13:18
GeneralAntillesThen we can have threedia13:18
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Is that Dia, Sodipodi & Inkscape?13:18
GeneralAntillesAlright, multimedia it is.13:19
johnxlardman, dsp programming and boring things that no one cares about? more descriptive I think13:19
X-Fade3D screen? 3D haptic feedback? So you feel bumps on the screen? :)13:19
lardmanjohnx: yes, sounds good ;)13:19
JaffaDo we have a conclusion on whether App Manager or the repo should force the section things appear in?13:21
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glassX-Fade: nokia has some patents and r&d to that13:21
X-Fadeglass: Yes, I read that on engadget I think ;)13:21
Stskeepshm, did jaiku just die a horrible horrible death?13:21
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, I still like Application Manager13:22
GeneralAntillesBut pull the list of acceptable packages from maemo.org13:22
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, bad gateway?13:23
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Want to suggest that in the thread I restarted which mvo was participating in?13:23
GeneralAntillesBeginning of the end of the world?13:23
GeneralAntillesJaffa, will do.13:23
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i wouldn't really be surprised these days.13:23
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Cool, ta.13:24
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I guess the real question is: Do we want to add sections later or is this the permanent solution.13:24
GeneralAntillesI think we'll notice the bombs going off when big datacenters start going down.13:24
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, i.e., might we want to change the list later?13:24
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Yes, because if it is in AM, that means releasing a new version.13:25
JaffaAnd, *can* we easily change the list; without the resources to handle all the i18n?13:25
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, like I said, it should fetch the authoritative list during a repository update.13:25
GeneralAntillesi18n will be a sticking point for Nokia.13:25
GeneralAntillesWe can probably hit a dozen languages from the community. . . .13:26
GeneralAntillesI'm sure we can organize translation if we need to add a section.13:26
GeneralAntillesemail fired off to -developers13:27
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RST38hFor missing i18n translation, default to Kli^H^H^HEnglish13:30
GeneralAntillesPig Latin?13:30
RST38hMay not be very elegant, but most people will understand it13:30
RST38hIs there a word for multimedia in Latin?13:31
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i kinda wonder what mvo meant by "please wake up", heh13:31
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, think qgil's asleep and we're all figments of his imagination? :D13:33
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johnxStskeeps, I think to say that deblet and (especially) the previous debian on tablet haven't ended up in many patches to maemo13:34
Stskeepsjohnx: ah, to the "please wake up" thing or?13:34
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Stskeepswell my perspective was that nokia wasn't interested13:35
Stskeepswhich they kinda seem like now though13:35
johnxI think they worry a lot about fracturing internally13:36
johnxit's been a big problem on almost every other linux-based device ever sold13:36
johnxexcept tivo :P13:37
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Stskeepsfracturing internally.. as in internal developer support or?13:40
Stskeepslike, "why bother working on maemo when there's deblet" or something?13:40
Stskeeps(extreme example)13:40
johnxnot so extreme if you look at the zaurus community as I'm sure Nokia does13:41
johnxThere were several incompatible distros at the height of zaurus popularity13:42
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Stskeepsthe whole OABI/EABI stuff or?13:45
JaffaGeneralAntilles: whilst replying to your email, I thought of another solution: an extra package which contains all the metadata which can be released independently of h-a-m.13:46
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GeneralAntillesSo users will have to install a "categories update" package?13:46
johnxStskeeps, Sharp's distro ("ROM" in zaurus-speak) had an old version of qtopia on framebuffer, then openzaurus forked qtopia because of license issues, but continued running on the framebuffer. Then there was pdaxrom which had x and gtk/qt but it was incompatible with a newer version of openzaurus that had switched to x and gtk, which was maintained in parallel with the qt/framebuffer version of openzaurus13:49
Stskeepsatleast it's a little more settled on maemo though13:49
Stskeepsthe outlines are the same in dist stuff13:49
johnxStskeeps, now multiply by each distro having better or worse support for different machines with different orientations and resolutions13:49
GeneralAntillesFun stuff13:50
johnxI'm just saying I think this is what Nokia worries about, but doesn't want to talk about13:50
* GeneralAntilles is kinda glad he never pulled the trigger on that SL-600013:50
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johnxGeneralAntilles, it's settled down to angstrom (ex-openzaurus) being pretty much the only maintained distro13:52
johnxthings are getting better now, but it's too little too late as zaurus users/devs have moved on to other platforms for the most part13:52
GeneralAntillesI had that thing sitting in my cart on Amazon for month.s13:52
johnxit's really nice hardware I hear13:52
* w00t eyes Stskeeps13:53
johnxbut hardware does not provide a good user experience by itself13:53
johnxand 64MB of RAM is not quite enough to comfortably surf the web13:53
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lardmanjohnx: it's always that way - took a long while for support for all the hardware due to Sharp's closed nature13:59
lardmanjohnx: From Nokia's point of view it's not so bad though, there are lots of apps, they are reasonably easy to port and the system software is kept uptodate; that removed lots of the causes of the competition on the Zaurus14:01
GeneralAntillesJaffa, there is the point that section list updates wont occur all that frequently.14:01
GeneralAntillesEspecially after we get a finalized list for Fremantle.14:01
GeneralAntillesMaybe another pro for the list-on-server approach is that it means anybody can get the list for any purpose?14:02
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johnxlardman, exactly, they're doing a lot better than Sharp, but lack of updates for "end-of-lifed" machines is going to be a stumbling block, and API changes definitely won't win them new friends among the devs14:02
GeneralAntillesIf somebody codes up another package manager or some sort of package-browsing web application.14:02
johnxback in an hour...14:03
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: both good points. I was imagining "Categories Update" being a hidden dependency of h-a-m14:03
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GeneralAntillesSo then you're still stuck waiting for an SSU push for a new list?14:04
lardmanWhy does the lsit need to be a dep, the AM should be able to run with whatever list it currently has cached14:04
lardmanand it should just look to update it when ever it's online14:05
lardmanor do we want to remove that overhead?14:05
GeneralAntillesJust update whenever the repositories list is refreshed.14:05
JaffaGeneralAntilles: No, just some normal upgrade14:05
JaffaTBH, I think this is overengineering.14:06
JaffaStick it all in with the h-a-m and upgrade it if necessary14:06
lardmanGeneralAntilles: I agree with you, update the list automatically whenever the user clicks update (for the package lists)14:06
X-FadeJaffa: Imaging the breakage if someone removes the extras repository from their list ;)14:06
JaffaIs it ever likely that we want to change the category list *so urgently* that it can't wait for a re-release?14:06
JaffaX-Fade: :)14:06
lardmanJaffa: can the AM be upgraded?14:07
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, well I figure it would be pulled in regardless of what's the catalog.14:07
RST38hWait, wait, why are you talking about updating category list at all?14:07
lardmanGeneralAntilles: exactly, it has its own update path which is hidden from the users14:07
RST38hIsn't it going to be generated dynamically based on whatever categories occur in the package lists?14:07
GeneralAntillesBecause then we're right back where we are now.14:08
lardmanotherwise it could just be done automatically on the device14:08
GeneralAntillesWith Boingo as a category14:08
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, so just embed the list in h-a-m?14:10
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Or however it currently gets its i18n labels: extend it to include icons & descriptions, and then anything which doesn't match it gets put into "user/other"14:12
GeneralAntillesRight, specifics are up to mvo. ;)14:13
RST38hGeneral: You can weed out "wrong" categories on repository submission14:14
RST38hAbsolutely no need to do it in the client14:14
GeneralAntillesNo you can't.14:14
GeneralAntillesWhat about Nokia repositories?14:14
GeneralAntillesOr 3rd party?14:14
JaffaOr J. Random 3rd Party14:14
RST38hWhat about them?14:14
RST38hWell, random 3rd party you can't do much about, just show whatever categories are there14:15
JaffaThey shouldn't fuck up the user's experience of the Application Manager14:15
GeneralAntillesThey can corrupt the category view.14:15
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RST38hgeneral: they will not, why?14:15
JaffaRST38h: Except we *can* do lots about it.14:15
RST38hThey will just show up as extra "Others" icons at the end14:15
RST38hJaffa: Just because you can do lots about something, does not mean you should14:15
JaffaWithout any i18n14:15
JaffaRST38h: Of course. At the moment, we think we should.14:16
RST38hPersonally, I think the right categories should be checke don Nokai repos submissions14:16
lardmanRST38h: you're being defeatist again ;)14:16
GeneralAntillesWe can solve the problem for good, quickly and easily.14:16
RST38hExtras, etc14:16
GeneralAntillesSo we should solve it.14:16
RST38hFor 3rd party repos, allow whatever shit they have, but make them aware that they won't get nice icons in app manager14:16
GeneralAntillesNot stupidly not solve it for stupid reasons.14:16
RST38hJust a generic Unknown icon14:17
GeneralAntillesNot getting nicely localized strings doesn't do shit as it stands14:17
GeneralAntillesIcons wont change that.14:17
lardmanwhy is that easier than just forcing them into the correct categories?14:17
RST38hlardman: Just trying to warn people off megalomania14:17
RST38hlardman: Forcing people is wrong14:17
GeneralAntillesAs opposed to rejecting packages from the autobuilder for non-compliance?14:17
lardmanRST38h: no, not in this case14:17
GeneralAntillesThis isn't about freedom of speech.14:18
JaffaThis is about a good user experience.14:18
lardmanRST38h: it's annoying, people should follow the guidelines, if there's some compelling reason for them not to, we will listen14:18
GeneralAntillesWe're preventing lame packagers from screwing up the user experience.14:18
RST38hThis isn't. This is about fucking up people in general sense.14:18
lardmanRST38h: no it isn't14:18
RST38hI am totally ok about enforcing stuff in Nokia repos (i.e. Extras)14:18
JaffaRST38h: Which people? Give an example of a valid use-case and I'll change my mind.14:18
lardmanRST38h: there should be no other repos! ;)14:19
RST38hBut why everybody is so bent on forcing plunger up 3rd party repo holders?14:19
GeneralAntillesExtras isn't a Nokia repository.14:19
RST38hGeneral: Ok, Maemo14:19
GeneralAntillesWhat plunger?14:19
GeneralAntillesMaemo is Nokia.14:19
RST38hJaffa: Let us say there is some HAM guy with his own repo14:19
RST38hJaffa: And he marks packages as user/ham14:19
RST38hor user/java14:19
GeneralAntillesIf they have issues with the package policy then they should address them.14:20
RST38hJaffa: Why so you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager?14:20
infobotRST38h meant: Jaffa: Why do you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager?14:20
GeneralAntillesNo, they just end up in Others.14:20
GeneralAntillesBizarre conversation. . . .14:20
RST38hOk, so you want to classify anything else as Others?14:20
RST38hThis is slightly better than disallowing it14:21
X-FadeJust like you use 'All' now ;)14:21
GeneralAntillesBizarre. . . .14:21
RST38hWould you consider making their user-defined category names subcategories of Others?14:21
lardmanwe were considering "non-conformant crap", but that was disallowed14:21
GeneralAntillesRST38h, if you're not gonna bother to follow the discussion, then don't just in with random conclusions.14:21
RST38hGeneral: I am at work. Can't follow the whole discussion, sorry.14:21
JaffaRST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter are shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages)14:22
GeneralAntillesThen try not to jump out screaming.14:22
X-FadeRST38h: There is no i18n available for random categories. That is not very nice for non-english languages.14:22
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Jaffas/are shown/should be shown/14:22
infobotJaffa meant: RST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter should be shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages)14:22
lardmanRST38h: most of the discussion is on the mailing list14:22
RST38hgeneral: I try not to, most of the time.14:22
RST38hX-Fade: I don't think anybody has problems with English category names14:22
RST38hNever seen anyone complain14:22
GeneralAntillesmegalomania and fucking is a bit over the top.14:23
X-FadeRST38h: Well, then you really don't know much about user experience ;)14:23
X-FadeRST38h: It is just plain bad to force English on people.14:24
* Jaffa goes to find some food.14:24
* X-Fade too14:24
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GeneralAntillesHrm, got this off-list (probably accidentally): I'd add something like user/science       Science        Scientific and engineering applications for things like Sysquake, Octave, R, 3D molecule display,14:26
GeneralAntillesProbably not an unreasonable addition as we already have Education14:27
GeneralAntillesThough I don't know what would go in there at the moment.14:27
GeneralAntillesI suppose at worst it would simply remain unseen and unused.14:27
lardmanWell Octave, R and Gnuplot exist, even if not in Extras yet14:27
X-FadeI think we shouldn't add too much categories.14:27
lardmanI agree with that, what about sticking them in Education or Office?14:27
X-FadeI'm really not sure about eductation either.14:28
RST38hX-Fade: You are not forcing English on people, just allowing 3rd party repos have english-only cateories14:28
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lardmanRST38h: that's poor form14:28
RST38hGeneral: Why not rename Education to Science14:28
GeneralAntillesRST38h, there are already packages in Extras which could go in Education14:29
lardmanWhy is Education even in there, what will go in it?14:29
RST38hAnd there are some that could go to Science as well14:29
GeneralAntillesand flash card games for 8-year-olds aren't Science14:29
RST38hOk, agreed14:29
RST38hThen have two separate categories14:29
lardmando they even need a category though, Utilities/Accessories or the like14:29
GeneralAntillesgcompris for one14:29
lardmanlet's stick HAM Radio Apps back in then on the off chance ;)14:29
RST38hWhy not make a separate category for gcompris? It is huge =)14:29
* GeneralAntilles would rather not see gcompris's million-and-one language packs ever again.14:30
lardmanRST38h: no!14:30
RST38hlardman: and don't forget model railroading!14:30
RST38hlardman: and flashlights14:30
GeneralAntillesOK, well, consider this14:30
lardmanperhaps s/Office/Productivity14:30
RST38hlardman: No.,14:30
GeneralAntillesCurrent proposal is 11 categories14:30
* aquatix isn't productive at office14:31
GeneralAntillesIn windowed mode, the current category view with Jaffa's patch shows14:31
GeneralAntilles15 categories14:31
GeneralAntilles12 without any scrolling at all14:31
GeneralAntillesThe 5th line has a few pixels worth of scrolling14:31
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GeneralAntillesSo we've got room for one more category easy.14:32
GeneralAntillesand 3 more after that if we shave a few pixels off the button height.14:32
GeneralAntillesThough that doesn't consider non-English i18n.14:33
RST38hReplace ugly text buttons with icons (with small inscriptions) and fit as many categories as possible without scrolling14:33
GeneralAntilleslardman, I had proposed that, but uses Office.14:33
lardmanGeneralAntilles: let's see how it goes and we can make changes as we go along14:34
GeneralAntilleslardman, now's the time. ;)14:34
GeneralAntillesI think we should add user/science14:34
RST38hIf you have got ~700x400 space, it will be ~21x12 32x32 icons14:34
GeneralAntillesI'd like to resolve as many categories as possible before we start changing code.14:34
GeneralAntilles32x32 is too small14:35
lardmanthe code is generic, that's the point14:35
RST38hok, let us bump it up...14:35
GeneralAntillesFor reference, the statusbar icons are 40x4014:35
RST38h10x6 64x64 icons is still 60 categories without scrolling14:35
lardmanbut yes, let's go with science then14:35
RST38hGeneral: Let us go with 64x64 - it is a standard Maemo size and should be large enough14:35
lardmanI'd prefer a list/tree view down one side personally14:36
GeneralAntilleslardman, honestly, I'd like to see several views implemented.14:36
lcuk+1 gren14:36
aquatixyeah, several views would be cool14:37
GeneralAntillesThere's really no reason to force everybody to one view unless you come up with something that's just unbelievably, ridiculously awesome.14:37
lcukhello chaps14:37
GeneralAntillesThere's a shitton of room on the toolbar14:37
aquatixtreeview, grid (with and without icons?)14:37
GeneralAntillesJust add a couple (normal small size) buttons on the right side.14:37
lcukGeneralAntilles, no 1 view suits all: a collection of data has many different ways of being displayed14:37
lcukjust one will do gen - it opens a small menu of options (see windows explorer...)14:38
GeneralAntillesaquatix, those were my proposals.14:38
aquatixGeneralAntilles: ah :)14:38
GeneralAntillesEw, dropdowns.14:38
GeneralAntilleslcuk, Finder has buttons for each. :)14:38
GeneralAntillesWe're not going to have more than 3 views, though.14:38
lcukfinder has a lot of free space14:38
GeneralAntillesSo having a text-dropdown isn't really all that useful14:39
lcuki dont mean text dropdown14:39
GeneralAntillesAs the longest text string will likely take up almost as much space as at least 2 icons.14:39
lcukand why only 3 - if i come up with a whizzbang new way of listing it - it should be available14:39
GeneralAntillesicon-only dropdowns are clunky14:39
lcuklikewise yourself - you could find a brilliant new way to organize them14:39
GeneralAntilleslcuk, see Sketch's method of selecting brush size.14:39
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lcuki dont just mean one or the other - but a way to select from available items is required14:40
GeneralAntillesWe've got plenty of room on the toolbar14:40
GeneralAntillesIf we need more than 3 views, then we cross that bridge when we come to it.14:40
GeneralAntillesFor now, I prefer the method that requires fewer taps.14:40
lcukbut isnt this something you choose and then use?14:40
lcukits not like you jump around switching views (after you have chosen)14:40
GeneralAntillesI do in Finder.14:41
lcukmost people find the view they are comfortable with and continue to use it cos they anticipate where things will be14:41
GeneralAntillesThen stick it in the application menu.14:42
lcukfine, np14:42
lardmanyep, in the menu14:42
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Then stick it in the application's menu.14:42
lcukjust doesnt need buttons because as new views come along you will stress about placement14:42
GeneralAntillesMenu: View -> List, Grid, Column14:42
GeneralAntillesI don't think there will be a lot of new views coming, personally.14:42
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lardmanwell people can of course submit patches14:43
GeneralAntillesWe've been stuck with the same shitty single-column list of buttons for two years.14:43
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GeneralAntillesand h-a-m has been open for all that time.14:43
JaffaDespite it being a 3 line patch to make it better14:43
GeneralAntillesJaffa, after the flurry of patches over the last few days14:43
Jaffa(not wonderful, but at least the grid is less scrolly)14:43
GeneralAntillesI was asking myself why it took so long.14:43
GeneralAntillesAny chance on getting it to remember scroll position?14:44
lardmanit's only a minor annoyance, down the bottom of my list of things to do14:44
JaffaGeneralAntilles: not looked14:44
GeneralAntillesThat's less of an issue since the amount of scrolling has been drastically reduced, but still.14:44
lcuklardman, like most things - "mmnmmn that looks wrong" but by the time you have finished the thought you have done what you want14:44
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I was prompted by a) Mrs Jaffa being away on Sunday; b) not wanting to hack on code models for Valable; c) realising no-one else was doing it; d) it being a trivial patch; e) the package categories task meaning that there's some benefit of it in14:46
Jaffapretends/some benefit of it in/some likelihood of it being useful/14:47
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lcukjaffa, for such a simple tweak it might actually work - if it gets people looking inside the other categroies and asking questions thats a start14:50
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GeneralAntillesIt's amazing how allnameswereout manages to involve _being American_ into every single discussion.14:54
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: It's amazing how allnameswereout manages to bring _being American_ into every single discussion.14:54
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: url?14:57
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GeneralAntillesIn this case:
GeneralAntillessnav needs to die already.14:58
lardmanlol @ thread14:59
lardmanglad I don't bother reading that one, would have sore sides all day14:59
* RST38h anticipates a good troll15:00
GeneralAntillesThere are a bunch of spam posters now15:00
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: about background.. that does explain some things, i am quite sure some of my grumpiness comes from my 9 years in a irc support channel and helping people :P15:00
GeneralAntillesThey write up 3-page long posts full of rambling nonsense15:00
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, retail makes you hate people.15:00
Stskeepsyes, it does15:00
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GeneralAntillesI had an old an old guy come in and ask me if I knew a pharmacy where they would develop nude photos.15:01
Jaffa"Octave" must be the worst named product in existence (looking at GeneralAntilles' change to Task:Package_categories - I *always* think it'll have something to do with music... but it doesn't, does it?15:01
GeneralAntillesThat was my 3rd week working there at the age of 16.15:01
Stskeepsthere's a reason we have a "hate customers".dk page15:01
RST38hGeneral: You want a sure method to make allnameswereout flinch?15:02
lardmanJaffa: no, but octaves are mathematical after all ;)15:02
RST38hGeneral: Ask him questions: where he works, what he does for living, how old he is15:02
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GeneralAntillesOr the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking or asking for information15:03
RST38hHe will probably end up being a variation of Darius15:03
GeneralAntilless/or/out or/15:03
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Or the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking out or asking for information15:03
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lcukGeneralAntilles, you should have told the old guy you would develop his porn collection for him15:03
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it's funny, I have an entirely different recollection of that experience than anybody else15:04
lcuklol - was it bad dodgy shifty?15:05
GeneralAntillesI recall it raining outside and him having me backed up against the sales tablet with only the single light fixture directly above us lit.15:05
GeneralAntillesI was such a sheltered kid back then, too. <_<15:05
lcukgo on, add to the drama (you could sell the rights to this screenplay)15:06
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GeneralAntillesI'm convinced I need to get with my old manager and write a book at some point.15:06
GeneralAntillesWe used to carry a paperback called "What Cops Know"
GeneralAntilles"What Bookstore Clerks Know"15:07
lcukThe Chronicles of Antilles : dodgy porn mac guy15:07
* GeneralAntilles recalls the year the gay pride parade took place right out front.15:07
aquatix <- `hate customers' ?15:07
lcukomg, that must have been terrifying15:07
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GeneralAntillesThe St. Pete gay community aint the SF gay community, either.15:08
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lcukall those gay people waving flags and having fun and cheering and getting on together15:08
GeneralAntillesActually, it was an interesting experience15:08
GeneralAntillesThe 300lbs sweaty guys in leather were a bit terrifying, though.15:08
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* qwerty12_N800 is reminded of Borat at Washington DC15:09
lcukheh - did you cower and weep?15:09
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glassa enterpreneaur/plant owner once told me of one guy he did some negotiations with, the guy was a very short fellow, but had in his office a very low seat for the visitor and a very high chair for himself15:09
glassno wonder that the guy was an ahole15:09
GeneralAntillesIt's interesting what you learn about people working retail15:09
lcukim reminded of the geek guy from wild hogs :D15:10
GeneralAntillesI have a whole different view of educators now15:10
glassthis guy who told me this was 190cm or so and laughed about it15:10
GeneralAntillesElementary school teachers pretty much treat everybody they interact with like 3rd graders.15:10
JaffaGeneralAntilles/lardman: I agree entirely with qgil's email about the meeting next week. GeneralAntilles: have fun with the admin ;-)15:10
lcukglass, putting yourself on level with someone has a very psychological effect, people do all sorts of things to get round it - the best i saw was a wheelchair that allowed raising and lowering so eye contact remained15:11
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, that's 5 blogs for you.15:11
glasslcuk: yeah but the effect fades if it's so obvious that he's trying to do it15:11
GeneralAntillesOnly problem I see with running the meeting is that Quim A. knows the people and B. knows the product and the infrastructure15:12
glasslcuk: the raising wheelchairs give more independence too, being able to reach higher places15:12
GeneralAntillesI do not.15:12
glassin stupidly designed elevators etc15:12
glassi guess they're expensive tho15:13
GeneralAntillesThere's still a lot of issues coming up in Sprints that I really don't have a clue about.15:13
* GeneralAntilles glares at Nemien15:13
lcukgood point glass - yes they are expensive - the one i saw was based on segway type technology and could alter its stance and remain balance15:13
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GeneralAntillesPerhaps Tero could sub in for Quim for that, though.15:14
GeneralAntillesBut has he been to a sprint yet?15:15
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: He should be there from now on.15:15
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X-FadeAny bash gurus around who can tell me how to show only the duplicate lines in a file?15:17
lcukglass iBot :
JaffaX-Fade: sort | uniq -d15:18
X-FadeJaffa: Thanks, was focussing too much on sort ;)15:19
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JaffaDamn. Run out of strong painkillers. That's unfortunate.15:22
JaffaMay have to leave work early. Ho hum.15:22
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: any big ideas on how to proceed with the whole fremantle / upstream thing? make proofs of concepts and show where problems arise, prototypes for base OS'es?15:22
lcuk:( jaffa, i keep buying weak ones from nearby supermarket - they must think im addicted15:22
lcukand jaffa - notice how NOONE ever wants to send even tiny bits of videos anywhere ever15:23
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I'd start with a wiki page outlining everything relevant you can think up off the top of your head in some detail.15:23
lcukive seen lots of video type threads over the years, and dont think ive ever seen a request for example video fullfilled15:23
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: k15:23
GeneralAntillesI think Nokia can probably handle the concrete stuff.15:24
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Stskeepsregarding maemo platform portability or "ideas for a base maemo"?15:24
lardmanhmm, I emailed MetrO and asked if I could port the code for the tablets and they just flat out refused15:24
GeneralAntillesAny upstream compatibility issues.15:24
lcuklardman, metro or -metro?15:24
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, Quim would be a good person to talk to about the best place to focus efforts, though.15:24
lardmanjust the kind of thing to annoy me enough to reverse engineer their format15:24
lcukimetro even15:24
lardmanyeah, imetro, all that stuff15:25
lcukyeah the one i looked at last night15:25
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GeneralAntillesIt's hilarious how people want to hold on so tightly to their stupid public transportation maps.15:25
lcukseems like an odd thing - specially since they talk about utilization on devices and  stuff15:26
lcukGeneralAntilles, in all fairness, their service does cover pretty much all the world15:26
lardmanlooks like they sell their wares15:26
GeneralAntilleslcuk, well, even individual transit system.15:26
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lardmanpeople seem to give them maps for free though15:26
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: lcuk, well, even individual transit systems.15:26
lcukno, the data is pretty much public already - go upstream from imetro and you will find it15:26
lcukfrom the same sources and providers imetro currently has15:27
vincenzo88Please, i have a big problem with my N810. The Nokia freeze on the boot (screen "NOKIA"). Someone have a solution ?15:27
lcukpop the battery for a while, put it back in and see15:27
vincenzo88Don't work :(15:27
lcukif its still bad, take one reflashing and come back in the morning15:27
lardmanlcuk: looks like individual contributors though
melmothvincenzo88: reflash it15:28
vincenzo88Ok i will search a methode to reflash :(15:28
lcukyes lardman, kindof like the cddb thing...15:28
lcukvincenzo88, its not the end of the world, and for future reference if you put required data on there keep a backup - same with all computers15:29
infobotwell, flashing is
lcuklardman, i know about manchester metro, but i know nothing about your local one15:30
vincenzo88Thanks for the link, i pray for its work15:30
lardmanlcuk: I just find it annoying15:30
lcukthats why i said last night start simple with yous - if people find it useful they may start to offer their own15:30
lcukagreed 100%15:30
lcukvincenzo88, extremely rare that reflashing doesnt cure it15:30
lardmanlcuk: I'll sit down and work out their database format, and then we (the community) can use their data and write an app15:31
lardmanseems fair to me :)15:31
lcuksounds reasonable- they offer an offline app dont they15:31
hrwAri Virtanen - someone knows who he is?15:31
lardmanyep, that's the one to target, the online one could be used quite easily I expect15:31
lardmanlunch time15:31
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lcukVice President, Convergence Products,15:32
lcukMultimedia, Nokia15:32
lcukhrw ^15:32
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suihkulokkiAri is (or it seems, was) a big level boss at N (far above anything technical)15:32
lcuki must vanish also, nice chatting as always15:33
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JaffaThere are two Aris related to the tablets: Ari Virtanen is more peripherally involved than Ari Jaaksi, AIUI15:34
Stskeepssuihkulokki: happen to know why a ubuntu minbase seems more.. minimal, than a debian minbase debootstrap? did they do special work within this area?15:35
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Stskeeps(apologies for any weird questions today, at work and running a fever :)15:36
melmothGRumble... where did the "how to reflash the os" page went now ?15:36
* melmoth hates wiki15:36
melmothyou never find stuff you need in such a chaotic way or storing stuff15:37
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, flashing is
GeneralAntillesIt's right on the damn front page, melmoth.15:37
suihkulokkiStskeeps: I presume the mojo minbase has been handbuilt15:37
GeneralAntillesand in the Users section15:37
GeneralAntillesand pops right up when you search for flashing15:37
melmothdid you try to follow the link ?15:37
Stskeepssuihkulokki: true, that's possible15:37
GeneralAntillesThe one infobot just linked?15:37
Stskeepssuihkulokki: it seemed pretty functional though15:38
GeneralAntillesYeah, works fine.15:38
melmothnot here15:38
suihkulokkiStskeeps: I doubt minimal ubuntu built using debootstrap (as done on normal install) is much different in size15:38
melmothok. Works better15:38
suihkulokkiStskeeps: you can do a "dpkg -l" in the ubuntu and debian and compare15:38
Stskeepsyeah.. might eventually15:39
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* suihkulokki wonders if mojo nowdays is hiding any usefull patches15:45
Stskeepsi hand-wrote the debootstrap script for hasty.. which they were hiding quite well how to debootstrap from15:45
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suihkulokki    *  Removed qt-perl dependency since we're still finishing ARM + KDE15:46
suihkulokki    *  removed java and objc depends for arm15:46
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johnxStskeeps, you hand wrote it? I just changed the config to debootstrap hardy heron a little...15:48
Stskeepsjohnx: well, okay, butchered, maybe15:48
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Stskeepsi just wonder what deblet project position should be if nokia decides they want to pursue a open base platform (which would serve quite well in the distro ecosystem), - experimental ground to get to that point?15:49
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Stskeepsand ways to document the problems and why the changes should exist15:52
johnxwell if the maemo GUI layer can be hosted easily on debian at that point, having a more "full" base system to install on SD would be a good goal15:53
johnxalso, Nokia will always be farther behind than sid in picking up new software15:53
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Stskeepstrue, but if it can be constructed in such a way it isn't difficult to change repos, for instance15:54
Stskeepsi was thinking possibility of in-flash OS + aufs15:54
Stskeepsso it overflows into sd15:54
* GeneralAntilles sighs at allnameswereout bringing more randomness to the wiki.15:55
johnxactually I (and others) have been thinking about that for pandora, and it doesn't seem to have many benefits compared to root-on-sd15:55
RST38hGeneral: link?15:56
johnxit basically presents a lot of nightmare scenarios for inconsistent dpkg states15:56
Stskeepswhy is that so? consider readonly internal flash, write sd?15:57
johnxStskeeps, are we talking about being able to boot from flash and sd independently?15:58
Stskeepsjohnx: well, let's imagine a n810 scenario - have a rootfs in flash, that's read only, let changes register on internal SD15:58
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Stskeepsto revert to factory, erase internal SD15:59
Stskeepslike on a livecd for instance15:59
johnxStskeeps, so never writing to the internal NAND?15:59
johnxthat's somewhat interesting I guess15:59
Stskeepsjohnx: that's a possibility15:59
RST38hLooks harmless so far15:59
Stskeepsmaybe for SSU15:59
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johnxafter a couple SSUs most of your base system will be on SD though15:59
RST38hGeneral: But all this really made me think: Ok, everybody has his own category names and everybody wants their own16:00
johnxRST38h, "everyone wants to tell you what color to paint the barn."16:00
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RST38hGeneral: Why not collect all the existing category names, form all sources, no matter how bizarre, and mape them internally to our categories?16:00
RST38hKinda like associative memory16:00
Stskeepsjohnx: AUFS seems to have some interesting features16:01
GeneralAntillesI don't want to encourage invalid category usage16:01
GeneralAntillesOther is punishment for not either A. Picking a valid category or B. Getting your category into the list of valid ones.16:01
JaffaMight have a quick look at my tablet and see the craziest categories and where their packages would go16:01
RST38hjohnx: Oh, I have had lots of that - when a bunch of busybodies decided they wanted to "extend" .NES format16:01
johnxas long as they're painting the barn themselves I tend not to care16:02
* RST38h left lots of people pissed then, especially considering their average age at the time =)16:02
johnxbut *no one* tells me how to paint my barn :)16:02
RST38hjohnx: and as long as it is not your barn I assume16:02
johnxwell, as long as they're willing to fork my barn first, then paint16:02
RST38hGeneral: it's not really an encouragment, just making app manager's guts a little bit smarter16:03
Stskeeps10 minute countdown till you start talking about hay and cows..16:03
RST38h'cause they will use wrong categories no matter what =(16:03
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RST38hSts: moo? =)16:03
GeneralAntillesRST38h, so you figure, eh?16:03
johnxStskeeps, I used to do tech support. Be very afraid of how far I can extend an analogy...16:03
GeneralAntillesWelll I've emailed with most of them and a lot of them have already switched to valid categories16:03
GeneralAntillesSooo . . . .16:03
RST38hGeneral: But new ones pop out daily! =)16:04
GeneralAntillesNot really16:04
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RST38hCan't mail them all, especially if Maemo does become popular16:04
GeneralAntillesI've got the same list of invalid categories I had 3 weeks ago16:04
GeneralAntillesInvalid categories stem more from people not knowing the valid set than actively disobeying it.16:04
RST38hWell, maybe you are right: if you absolutely force right categories people will end up adhering to them16:05
GeneralAntillesYou were pretty insistent that people wouldn't use Extras a few months ago, too, as I recall.16:05
RST38hCan a category be assigned during promotion to extras, using web interface?16:05
Jaffa you figure, eh?16:05
RST38hGeneral: Some still don't16:05
GeneralAntillesBut the honest truth is that most maintainers want to do The Right Thing.16:05
RST38hOur friend pupnik for example ;)16:05
GeneralAntillesThere will always be outliers16:05
johnxUnix is all about 80% solutions :)16:06
GeneralAntillesRST38h, that has nothing to do with him not wanting to, though.16:06
GeneralAntillesHe's certainly not running his own repository out of protest.16:06
RST38hGeneral: Last time I checked, he wasn't sure about quality16:06
GeneralAntillesTime would seem to be the bigger factor.16:06
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, hrm, can we do that? If a package is uploaded through the assistant and has an invalid category, can the uploader be offered a list of valid ones to pick from?16:07
GeneralAntillesThen it can just be corrected by the assistant.16:08
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RST38h*or* it can be done by promoter16:09
johnxStskeeps, think there is significant benefit in hacking around with LD_LIBRARY_PATH compared to using a chroot to run maemo apps in debian?16:09
qwerty12_N800RST38h, it would leave ham's categories looking odd though if -devel is on the repository list16:10
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* GeneralAntilles sighs at Nokia not even being willing to apply a stupid fullscreen patch to control panel.16:11
RST38hqwerty: true16:11
qwerty12_N800it works great as well :(16:11
RST38hso, they really have to be enforced starting with -devel16:11
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I have just coded up the warning, but I guess I can change the .changes file..16:11
GeneralAntillesThe idiot product managers should just be straight with us (for once) and say that they wont accept patches for a particular product.16:11
Stskeepsjohnx: that's a good question.16:12
Stskeepsjohnx: we speaking maemo-gtk?16:12
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, warning still works for dput?16:12
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Warning in assistant.16:12
Stskeepsjohnx: it's good for proving that it's possible to run dual-gtk..16:12
RST38hGeneral: THAT would harm developer relations and make Quim's job more difficult16:12
johnxStskeeps, well, maemo-gtk is the root. Debian's hildon is patched to not need maemo-gtk, right?16:12
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, well, leave the warning for if they choose to ignore the option to switch to a valid category, then? :D16:12
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: If you use dput, then the warning will come from the autobuilder.16:12
GeneralAntillesRST38h, hey, at least it would be honest.16:13
Stskeepsjohnx: well the define isn't enabled in configure, yeah16:13
RST38hSo, the right (from management point of view) way to deal with this is assure developers of good intentions and stonewall16:13
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I can add a select box, should be doable.16:13
Stskeepsjohnx: fairly simple to enable though16:13
RST38hGeneral: You do not get promoted to management by being honest.16:13
johnxStskeeps, ah well, I'll give this a shot and tell you if it's doomed16:13
Stskeepsjohnx: what example app are you trying with?16:14
GeneralAntillesRST38h, well, the alternative is me beating them about the head and shoulders with a frozen trout until they are.16:14
johnxhaven't gotten that far. I'm still reading af-defines.sh16:14
johnxI was thinking maemopad I guess16:15
Stskeepsi guess it's a good way to test16:16
johnxone of the most maemo-y apps should be a good starting place16:16
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Stskeepsfrom compile or from binary, btw?16:17
johnxa maemo binary16:17
johnxI'm treating this as "learn by doing" :)16:18
Stskeepsthe wider experiment is recompiling maemo gtk but changing it into installing into other include dirs and lib dirs, and providing a pkg-config "maemo-gtk"16:18
Stskeepswhich points to right lib dirs and stuff16:19
RST38hGeneral: You want the real alternative?16:20
GeneralAntillesShip my own distribution so I don't have to deal with their nonsense.16:20
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johnxStskeeps, yeah, that sounds like a better effort to sink time into. Let's see how far I get16:22
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lcukGeneralAntilles, signed packages should not be tampered with (as far as I am aware - this is the point of signing)  i know the requirement is gone now, but if ppl still upload as signed we shouldnt touch them16:25
johnx...then we can save weird hacks for things that can't be recompiled16:25
* lcuk pushes his scrollbar to the bottom - sorry missed half a convo :S16:25
Stskeepslack of bacon, lcuk? :P16:26
lcukmust be16:26
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, good point.16:28
GeneralAntillesX-Fade? :P16:28
lcukglad itt has stopped ;)16:29
lcukfor now16:29
X-FadeLet's keep it as a warning for now.16:29
GeneralAntilleslcuk, allnameswereout never stops.16:29
X-FadeAnd present a link to the proper documentation.16:29
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dmsupermanHave we got a good google calendar alarm app for maemo yet?16:33
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johnxdmsuperman, have you checked out mcalendar?16:34
dmsupermanjohnx: Yeah, it doesn't seem to sync16:34
dmsupermanIt seems _fantastic_ otherwise16:34
Stskeepsjohnx: i'll try to get some patches for maemo gtk+ to make it as i described16:34
dmsupermanA perfect calendar app but it won't sync right with google calendar16:35
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dmsupermanNeither up nor down16:35
johnxdmsuperman, I'm sure it's supposed to. I think it's worth trying to contact the author of that app to try and get it sorted out16:37
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dmsupermanjohnx: From what I hear it's a common problem, but I'll give that a try16:39
dmsupermanIt's not like it just plain doesn't work. Occasionally, if I do it manually, it'll download events16:39
dmsupermanBut never automatically, and it never syncs up to the calendar16:39
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Stskeepsjohnx: think i'll get beaten up if i simply do the trick by changing api ver?16:47
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Stskeepsso it's pkg-config --libs gtk+-2.0-maemo and likes?16:47
Stskeepsnot sure if it conflicts with -doc though16:47
RST38h(made in Finland)16:47
johnxis there a reason that's better/easier than maemogtk+-2.0?16:48
Stskeepsjohnx: one line change16:48
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disco_stuRST38h: is that a fake animal, right ?16:48
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Stskeepsand it is indeed, an api ver derivation16:48
johnxStskeeps, sure, then why not? at least for testing16:48
* Stskeeps starts buildin'16:49
X-FadeWow, this application looks cool:
RST38hdisco_stu: The title says "Care about your dog, not about its gastrointestinal parasites"16:49
RST38hdisco: so, yes, it is what you think it is16:49
StskeepsX-Fade: indeed16:50
RST38hX-Fade: oh, cool, who is this guy?16:50
Stskeeps3420B/s .. i wonder if mojo repos are running on maemo.org16:50
X-FadeRST38h: sampp16:50
RST38his he working for Nokia by any chance? This looks like an offshot of the Sportstracker16:51
X-FadeRST38h: I can only see if he has a address, which he has not. So probably not working for Nokia.16:52
johnxStskeeps, if you're going to work on that, I'll take a stab at running stuff unmodified via any means necessary, unless there's anything I can do to help?16:53
Stskeepsjohnx: think i'll poke a bit at this for a while, maybe get a mojo up on the beagleboard16:54
disco_stusomeone tried fennec in their n800 ?16:55
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johnxdisco_stu, someone did. There's a thread on iTT about it, but I haven't tried it16:56
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X-FadeWhat mvo's idea to encode the categories as debtags? :)16:57
Stskeepsjohnx: i wonder though, what's the majority of changes in maemo gtk, the extra API or the optimization/"more suitable for embedded" though16:58
JaffaX-Fade: ENOCONTEXT16:58
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JaffaOh, FFS. Why should 'ah: ' do that. Silly IRC client16:59
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johnxStskeeps, have yo seen this: ?17:01
X-FadeJaffa: detags section in wiki page.17:01
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Stskeepsjohnx: i've suggested the "apiver" change on the bug report dealing with seperate gtk vers17:03
Stskeepslet's see what they say17:03
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johnxStskeeps, going from that list, one of the things I ran into was actually probably not a maemo-specific API change per se, but the fact that they made a private API available and it changed in gtk 2.12 (or 2.14?)17:07
Stskeepswhich one of them?17:08
johnxsomething to do with gtkfile* something I believe17:09
Stskeepsah, the filechooser :P17:09
johnxI'd get you the exact error but apparently my OE build machine is down :/17:10
johnxcan someone in Canada hit the reboot button on a machine for me?17:10
RST38hHow hard hit would you like? (in Mt)17:10
johnxRST38h, I need to *use* the server *after* you hit it. Adjust accordingly17:11
RST38hThat would be problematic =)17:11
johnxI need to use it as something besides a semi-permanent night-light that is17:11
RST38hwhat kind of work are you doing, if it is not a secret of course?17:13
johnxRST38h, my day job?17:14
johnxI'm an English teacher :)17:14
disco_stujohnx: whats your age ?17:14
Stskeepsoh, i thought you were doing some tech stuff17:14
RST38hAh, had to guess that =)17:14
johnxdisco_stu, 25. And you?17:15
* aquatix feels old at 2617:15
johnxStskeeps, oh, I was. Probably will again.17:15
* RST38h is an old fart17:15
Stskeeps<- 24, student programmer at some uni, getting my masters degree in september in comp.sci :P17:15
RST38hpast the crucifixion age too17:15
* aquatix has actually no idea what age that is17:16
aquatixor something17:16
disco_stuStskeeps: i'm becoming a software engineer soon17:16
disco_stuwell.. not that soon..17:16
johnx<- school and him didn't mix. Got a job as a sys-admin, loved it. Got lured to Japan for a couple years with my then-girlfirend, now-wife17:16
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RST38haquatix: 3617:17
RST38hjohnx: is she native? =)17:17
aquatixah :)17:17
aquatixRST38h: that's not old ;)17:17
johnxRST38h, She's a native of the US actually17:17
aquatixjohnx: an Indian?17:18
aquatix(is that the right word?)17:18
johnxaquatix, well, not what I meant :P17:18
RST38h"feathers, not dots"17:18
aquatixRST38h: hm, interglot says Indian17:19
disco_stui'm trying to get a keyboard for my n80017:19
* aquatix thinks only Indians are US natives ;)17:19
disco_stuanyone used those folding kb's ?17:19
aquatixdisco_stu: i have an iGo17:19
GeneralAntillesaquatix, really, nobody is native to anywhere.17:19
aquatixGeneralAntilles: true17:20
johnxaquatix, depends on how you define "native"17:20
aquatixwe're all from Afrika/Asia17:20
GeneralAntillesOne group of people or another was always the invaders at some point.17:20
disco_stuaquatix: cant find igo's here17:20
johnxyou either say "no one is native" or "everyone is native of *somewhere*"17:20
aquatixdisco_stu: yeah, they kinda stopped selling them :(17:20
RST38hGeneral: yes but they are not the same people as the ones that have been born from them17:20
GeneralAntillesI'd say native meaning "born there" seems like a reasonable definition.17:20
disco_stuaquatix: im in argentina :(17:20
RST38hdisco: Any BT keyboard will do17:21
aquatixdisco_stu: can't you let them mail you one?17:21
RST38hdisco: I went for Apple one17:21
aquatixdisco_stu: i got mine from the US too, through internet17:21
johnxRST38h, how's the koolaid?17:21
disco_studont know17:21
RST38hjohnx: mmm? =)17:21
johnxRST38h, all apple produkts come with the free koolaid, right?17:22
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aquatixjohnx: only with a reality distortion field ;)17:22
RST38hjohnx: I haven't found any. maybe inside, instead of silicon? =)17:22
* aquatix hides17:22
aquatixbut the apple bt keyboard is quite nice17:22
RST38hthe keyboard looked pretty harmless in fact. had a little dent at the left side, god knows why17:22
aquatixRST38h: second hand?17:23
lardmanIs it really bad form to let other people read an email addressed just to you?17:23
RST38hnope, new, from best Buy17:23
disco_stui can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 35017:23
johnxso, RST38h, then I have to ask: What's your day job?17:23
aquatixlardman: depends17:23
RST38hlardman: I would ask your correspondent first17:23
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RST38hjohnx: Software engineer in Intel ZAO17:23
RST38hjohnx: Which is Intel's subsidiary in Moscow17:23
aquatixah :)17:24
lardmanIn which case I'll quote - told that they won't share sources, I said I wasn't too bothered about the sources, just the db format, and I was told this: "You wouldn't go very far with only the data format, unless you don't mind waiting a few minutes for a route calculation."17:24
lardmanand then told that the db format is also closed17:24
lardmanso the question is, do they think I'll be crap at writing routing code (and I'll be offended) or that they either pre-generate routes, or do it remotely (in which case it's interesting)17:25
RST38haquatix: abbreviation for a company that is not publicly traded17:25
RST38hnot sure what English equivalent will be17:25
johnxlardman, well they can't do it remotely, right?17:25
lardmanjohnx: I don;'t think so anyway17:26
aquatixRST38h: ah, i see17:26
johnxwell, does routing work while offline? if yes, then...17:26
qwerty12_N800RST38h, private limited company afaik17:26
RST38hlardman: Who are these guys?17:26
johnxRST38h, ah, the fun of trying to translate company names :)17:26
RST38hqwerty: Ah, LTD?17:26
lardmanRST38h: metro people17:26
aquatixlardman: i missed the name of the app you're talking about; is that the nokia wayfinder?17:27
aquatixlardman: ah :)17:27
RST38hlardman: Are you talking subway map routing? (sorry)17:27
aquatixbut indeed, they seem to imply you suck at writing routing code17:27
aquatixbut maybe they have additional routing info17:27
qwerty12_N800RST38h, yeah17:27
lardmangood, that annoys me and makes me even more likely to reverse engineer it17:27
lcukwell he does - else he wouldnt be asking for theirs :P17:27
aquatixlardman: :)17:27
RST38hjohnx: The bottom line is that we are Intel, just getting paid in rubles at 1/2 the US salary rates :)17:27
lardmanlcuk: :p17:28
* aquatix would like to see MetrO OSS17:28
RST38hqwerty: You can do your own routing pretty easily17:28
lardman is the url17:28
aquatixlardman: lol17:28
lcukheh - go lardman, in england reverse engineering a locked in data format is *only* 4 years in prison nowadays isnt it?17:28
RST38hqwerty: There is already an app that does it for Moscow subway. Want a link?17:28
aquatixlardman: that's the MetrO i talked about17:28
aquatixlardman: they're weird17:28
lardmanlcuk: it's not locked as far as I can tell, it's also freely downloadable17:28
aquatixlardman: i offered help porting their app to uiq317:28
aquatixor even just beta testing17:29
qwerty12_N800RST38h, it's lardman reversing it , not me :)17:29
aquatixthey flat out refused17:29
johnxRST38h, does the cost of living scale in the same way? I don't mind saying that it's quite insane here...17:29
RST38hlardman: Want a link to the one made for Moscow? (you can talk to its author too)17:29
lardmanaquatix: same here, I asked if I could port it to the tablets, they said no17:29
lardmanRST38h: yeah go on17:29
lcuklardman, with a pretty clear disclaimer, i think you would be better looking at it, expanding on it and then building yourown data unencombered from the reach of their eula and lawyers17:29
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RST38hjohnx: it is quite insane here too, but we own our appartment, taxes are 13%, so it is not prohibitively expensive17:30
aquatixlardman: i rather like the app, but the attitude of the developer(s?) isn't too friendly17:30
lardmanlcuk: getting the data is the problem I think17:30
RST38hjohnx: most money is being spent on the school and house cleaning help17:30
lcuknow if a random blob appeared on the table i might take a peek and poke at it and see what connections it makes17:30
melmothlardman: mind using metro information from openstreetmap ? Should be not that complicated.17:30
lcuklardman - OSM has same problem - cddb has same problem17:30
lcukopen source communities overcome them17:31
lardmanmelmoth: does it exist?17:31
melmothRemember the test i made with sayhoo for paris , that ended up eating too much memory ? With only subway station data, it should be usable without using all the memory of the tablet17:31
lcukstart with a simple to use and simple to update format that works for your local route requirements and expand from there17:31
johnxRST38h, ah, you have someplace big enough to need house cleaning? madness :P17:31
aquatixlardman: did you look at the downloadable db's?17:31
melmothlardman: i know that i had subway station in the data i fetche from osm17:31
lardmanmelmoth: yes, routing on subways is very simple, which is why I feel I can be offended17:31
aquatixlardman: are they encrypted or something?17:31
lardmanmelmoth: ok, I'll look into it17:32
lardmanaquatix: don;'t know yet, might just be simple Palm dbs for all I know17:32
aquatixlardman: yeah17:32
RST38hjohnx: ~112m^217:32
johnxRST38h, let me convert that into tatami mats...17:32
lcuk\o/ yayyyy 1000% times better to look at truely open alternatives ;)17:32
RST38hjohnx: And it gets messed up pretty quick, with two children and somewhat hostile outside environment17:32
RST38hjohnx: *9 will give you square feet17:33
johnxthe children would do it I suppose :)17:33
lardmanRST38h: no source17:33
johnxRST38h, sadly I really do think in terms of tatami mats now...17:33
RST38hlardman: You remember wazd here?17:33
aquatixRST38h: any idea how up-to-date the info from metromap is?17:33
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RST38hlardman: He is the author17:33
lardmanRST38h: ok, is he about these days?17:33
RST38haquatix: it is up to date - the last station opened a few months ago :)17:34
RST38hlardman: Dunno, check!17:34
lardmanah, it's python anyway from the looks of it, no problem17:34
RST38hYou can contact him via garage too17:34
lardman~seen wazd17:34
infobotwazd <n=az@> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 86d 25m 48s ago, saying: 'from the tablet'.17:34
aquatixRST38h: because for example in amsterdam, the trams tend to change route once in a while17:34
RST38hjohnx: Oh, I came to the point where visiting US feels weird17:35
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aquatixor is this purely metro?17:35
* aquatix should just install and try17:35
JaffaGeneralAntilles: your last email raises another advantage of you at least co-chairing the next meeting: you can give Quim an action to enable more Nokia collaboration on all the stuff we're talking about with the App Mgr. It's gone beyond just changing the categories and the community are now leading the way - potentially down a blind alley.17:35
RST38haquatix: It is fucking subway. The trains are the size of your normal intercity train17:35
RST38haquatix: They run in tunnels too =)17:35
aquatixRST38h: myeah, i meant that MetrO from has bus and tram info too17:36
aquatixquite useful17:36
lardmanaquatix: bus routing would also be useful, if available17:36
aquatixlardman: my point exactly :)17:36
RST38hI am pretty sure it can do buses as well but bus routes change too frequently17:36
aquatixRST38h: yeah17:36
lardmanRST38h: hmm, not that often though17:36
aquatixthat's why it would be nice if MetrO's people would cooperate17:36
aquatixthey have a network of people that refresh the info17:37
RST38haquatix: The routing problem is very very simple17:37
aquatixRST38h: true17:37
aquatixit's more about the data17:37
RST38haquatix: As for the data sources, local transportation authority tries to keep all bus routes up to date on their web site17:37
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lardmanaquatix: indeed, looks like people do the refreshing for free ( and
RST38hI am pretty sure UK is no different17:37
aquatixlardman: yeah17:37
aquatixRST38h: true17:37
aquatixRST38h: same here in the netherlands17:37
lardmanalso need the route times17:37
lardmani.e. length of routes in minutes17:38
RST38hdoesn't google do bus routing btw?17:38
RST38hlardman: no schedules at the web site?17:38
disco_stui can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 35017:38
lardmanRST38h: I don't want to look at a website17:38
aquatix <- amsterdam data17:38
lardmanI could always get a paper timetable ;)17:38
RST38hlardman: Why not? You are not looking, your app is17:38
lardmanRST38h: yeah, so I need to write the code to scrape the websites too17:39
johnxRST38h, wait, 112m^2? O_o17:39
RST38hjohnx: Yea17:39
lardmanRST38h: I thought using existing data would be better all round17:39
RST38hjohnx: This includes two balconies, two baths, kitchen, etc though17:39
aquatixRST38h: i'd prefer an offline solution17:39
RST38hlardman,aquatix: Make it update once a week, no problem there17:40
aquatixotherwise i could as well visit a site17:40
lardmanaquatix: yeah I was talking off line too; scrape create db, use off line17:40
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aquatixRST38h: need to write a scraper though then17:40
aquatixlardman: :)17:40
lardmanRST38h: you understimate the amount of work required to do the scraping17:40
aquatixscraping sucks17:40
RST38haquatix: it is easier than making a bunch of humans surrender their "IP" to you17:40
aquatixand is slightly illegal iirc17:40
* RST38h scapres regularly in different projects17:40
* aquatix too17:41
aquatixbut still17:41
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johnxRST38h, at best guess I'd say roughly a fifth of that if you're curious :)17:41
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RST38hjohnx: you are not trying to say you have got a 22m^2 pad?17:42
johnxRST38h, less than that if you're only counting open floor space17:43
RST38hthat is disturbingly smaller than an average shipping container17:43
johnxbut shipping containers don't have plumbing and insulation17:44
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johnxyou have no idea what a Tokyo-area apartment is like, huh?17:44
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RST38hI am now afraid to imagine17:44
RST38hBeen to Taiwan, seen those rows of corroded 2/3-floor appartment blocks17:44
qwerty12_N800~seen dannym17:45
infobotdannym <i=d5960157@gateway/web/ajax/> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 18d 6h 39m 20s ago, saying: 'hi'.17:45
RST38hjohnx: how big is the rent anyway?17:46
aquatixjohnx: that's... claustrophobic17:47
johnxaquatix, you get used to it, or you go gibbering mad. I'll leave you to decide which happaned to me :D17:47
aquatixyou got used to be gibbering mad?17:48
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lardmando pdb files have a standard structure?17:49
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aquatixlardman: no17:50
lardmanso it's just an extension, nothing else17:51
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lardmancool, so it is structured, nice17:52
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aquatixi hope that's usable with metro's db's17:53
aquatixlardman: keep me posted, it's interesting :)17:53
lardmanI'll write some code this evening and see if I can parse their database17:54
lardmanit appears that the strings are stored seperately from the other data17:54
lardmandoesn't look too hopeful17:54
lardman is good for the format, though not sure whether that's the one17:57
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aquatixlardman: looks helpful at least17:59
lardmanyeah, but take a look at the db with a hex editor :(17:59
lardmanI can't even see a coherent record structure unless it's stored in memo-type fields, with all text data in one record17:59
lardmanlike every single station name in the same record18:00
aquatixi think they encrypted it somehow18:00
lardmanno, the text is plain18:00
lardmanthe structure is awkward though18:00
aquatixgood luck :)18:01
* aquatix focuses on his thesis for a few minutes18:02
lardmanI'll just fall back to doing the London tube I think18:02
GeneralAntillesHi, rm_you. :)18:03
johnxhi rm_you :D18:04
aquatixaloha rm_you18:04
GeneralAntillesWait, that should be s/:)/*eg*/18:04
rm_youI need to come around more <_<18:05
RST38hmoo, rm_you18:05
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GeneralAntillesrm_you, that you do, as I've got a backlog of evil things and it would behoove you to keep me busy so it doesn't grow longer. :P18:05
rm_youI may have time over thanksgiving break <_<18:06
rm_youcause i'll be in houston with my GF but she18:06
rm_you*she'll be gone for a day or two at her cousin's wedding18:06
rm_youso i'll be sitting around bored18:06
rm_youjohnx: so my xmas break will pretty much exactly coincide with yours :)18:09
rm_youoff by a day18:09
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moontigerdoes anybody know whats up with the nokia windows flasher app? suddenly telling me that my clock isnt set right on the windows machine and refuses to go any further18:27
johnxis your clock set right?18:28
moontigera friend just a got a n81018:28
moontigerand i was helping him flash it to diablo18:28
moontigerbut no go18:28
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lardmanWindows flasher is something Nokia will need to sort out if they plan to appeal to non-hackers18:33
GeneralAntillesIdeally people will have to deal with it less with Fremantle18:33
GeneralAntillesI don't know how anybody uses Firefox on PPC18:36
GeneralAntillesIt is dog slow for me.18:36
Proteousmaybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf and just busy18:42
infobotProteous meant: maybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf are just busy18:43
qwerty12Yeah, is going slow for me18:43
Proteousdoh, I'll check into that18:43
qwerty12Thanks, I was missing it18:44
ProteousI didn't take you for a irish amputee on horses kind of guy18:45
qwerty12Yeah, I needed the most outlandish stuff and only your site provided me with that18:45
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moontigeri'll use the linux flasher18:56
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qwerty12Good choice :P18:56
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moontigerand i have the image ... so easy right?18:58
lardmanandre___: ping18:59
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lcukmoontiger, chances are your clock ISNT right - daylight savings just changed -  did you change clock manually or did you let it adjust itself19:00
lardmanwhy should it care?19:01
lcukcos then its an hour out19:01
lcuki dont make the rules, but know software can be "picky" about such things19:01
lardmanwhich is important when going to a wedding, not when flashing a device19:01
GAN800DST didn't do anything here.19:01
lcuk100% agree lard19:01
lcukspeaking of which, are you hhaving a linux or a windows wedding?19:02
lardmanno idea19:02
lardmanfree beer sounds good though19:03
lcuklinux weddings should be the norm - delivery truck brings one of every sort of food and lets the guests make their own19:03
lcukand beer19:03
lcukyes, lots of beer19:03
nemolcuk: open source wedding, maybe.19:04
lcuki wonder what horrors a microsoft wedding would bring.   *shudder*19:04
nemohoneymoon, not so much19:04
GAN800It's cold today.19:04
lcukyes nemo, honeymoons must be closed source19:04
lcukwith logging disabled19:04
timelesshello world19:04
lcukand no irc :P19:05
timelessanyone know where one finds the normal -dbg repos for debian?19:05
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moontigerlcuk ... im on pst and i did an auto time update19:06
moontigerthe tablet is set to pst too19:06
moontigeri think its the nokia servers being set back or sometine19:07
lcukfair enough moontiger, i just know i've fallen over iwth that in the past - and if it was a simple fix then you couldv carried on19:07
moontigeryeah i hear you ... and i tried all that ... ithink its def a bug in the nokia software19:08
moontigeri havent used the linux flasher but im hoping it wont have the same issues19:08
infobothmm... flashing is
moontigerthnx :)19:08
moontigerits one of my students who bought a tablet after my recommendation19:09
moontigerso i want to help him get it flashed to diablo19:09
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qwerty122 people said they kept clicking repeatedly at the time message and said that worked :P19:09
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Khertan_n810Hello !19:10
moontigerflasher3 static?19:11
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Khertan_n810command not found19:11
moontigerhey Khertan_n810 :)19:11
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qwerty12moontiger: the normal flasher-3.0 should be ok19:11
moontigerok thnx qwerty1219:11
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Khertan_n810hi moontiger19:12
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moontigerthen chmod +x flasher?19:12
moontigerschweet :)19:12
Khertan_n810error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')19:13
Khertan_n810rahhhhhhhh !!!!!!19:13
Khertan_n810i ll make a murder !!!!19:14
Khertan_n810rah ... and now rer c (french train) is interrupted19:14
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Khertan_n810why gdata is so slow ... this really sucks19:16
Khertan_n810and this with a max_result=119:16
Khertan_n810i can t ask less19:16
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Khertan_n810google sync will really make me crazy !19:17
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pyhimysKhertan_n810: well it is _beta_ software after all ;)19:19
Khertan_n810yeap like everythings on the web19:20
lardmanreboot time, cu all later on19:20
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ryoohkiwell, i just got a wimax n810 and the gps hasn't locked yet even though i left it on for quite a few minutes19:31
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ryoohkianyone had toruble getting the gps to work?19:31
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ryoohkialso, is the door supposed to have the corner tab bent19:32
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mgedmin"quite a few" sounds not enough19:34
mgedminfirst gps fix takes a really long time (20 minutes or so?)19:35
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mgedminalso, are you outdoors?  gps doesn't work well (or, usually, at all) indoors19:35
mgedminI don't know what corner tab you're talking about19:35
ryoohkimgedmin: twenty minutes?!19:35
mgedminmaybe 1219:35
mgedminfirst fix is horrible19:36
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melmothall cold fix are horrible19:36
melmothseriously, the gps is a gadjet on the n810 board. A funny gadget, but a gadjet.19:36
mgedminalso, download agps-beta from the tableteer repo19:36
|rt|even my garmin takes a while to lock on if you're in a different location than the last time it was on....especially if you're moving19:36
mgedminreduces gps fix time if you're online19:36
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mgedminwith it you can get a fix in 15..45 seconds19:37
mgedminwithout it you need 60..90 seconds19:37
melmoth90 seconds is when i m lucky, with or without agps19:37
|rt|I installed agps on my 810...haven't tried anything with the gps yet outside myself19:37
melmoth10 to 20 mn is more realist19:37
ryoohkimgedmin: on one side( the middle of the back) are three tabs the act as a hinge, on the outside are two tabs that act as a hook to lock the door. the other, third, outer tab is the one i'm speaking about19:37
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ryoohkimgedmin: well i'm used to gps units that lock in less than a minute19:38
mgedminI see19:38
mgedminmine is also bent, if that's the right word19:38
ryoohkimgedmin: ok, good, cause mine is also bent at a right angle19:39
* Khertan_n810 is tired of gdata ... and will try freecivilization for maemo19:39
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melmothmon meilleur conseil est: ne cherche pas a optimiser ton site en quoi que ce soit pour le rferencement19:40
qwerty12 lol...19:44
melmothsi j etais toi, je chercherais au moins un mi temps a coté19:44
melmothgrumble.. grumble.  one day i ll get use to irssi split screens19:45
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Stskeepsqwerty12: what was the exact issue of coreutils nuking busybox again?19:47
qwerty12Stskeeps: dpkg database says busybox provides, replaces, conflicts with coreutils so when you install coreutils, busybox wants to go and a shitload of stuff depends on busybox or a tool that busybox is set to "provide"19:48
Stskeepsokay, so opposite to how debian busybox does it.. i wonder19:49
qwerty12If busybox is rebuilt with the Conflicts line removed, you may be able to use dpkg-divert19:49
moontigerthat flashing was easier than the dumbass windows flasher19:49
Stskeepsor avoid problems altogether19:49
Stskeepspostinst of busybox, busybox --install19:50
Stskeepsit sets up hard links19:50
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qwerty12That sounds better. Nokia provide them with the package >.<19:50
Stskeepswell, mkfs.jffs2 doesn't do it correctly so19:51
* qwerty12 wastes time by rebuilding optimised, latest mpd again19:51
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lardmanvincenzo88: how's the ip camera app going?19:53
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vincenzo88I will try to port a Qt program work on Ubuntu to the N81019:53
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lardmansurely the gui is only a minor part of it?19:55
Stskeepsuhm, - port a qt program that works on ubuntu to the n810 maemo? :P19:55
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vincenzo88Stkkeeps: I will try but ^^19:56
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mouser-This may seems like an incredibly stupid question, but if people are having trouble with busybox, isn't there a way to install bash as a CLI?  If we can watch video on it, certainly it has the power to run it.  Is it not ported to ARM or maemoitized?20:03
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melmothi think bash is available in extras or somewhere already20:03
qwerty12mouser-: sure, it's in extras. it's a problem with other things that busybox replaces too like ls etc20:03
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Stskeepsmouser-: i kinda wonder about the need for busybox on a tablet, really20:05
Stskeepsbash vs busybox, sure, but the rest?20:05
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Stskeepsi mean, coreutils does take up space obviously..20:07
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mouser-Stskeeps: If things on a desktop distro go horribly wrong, it generally falls back to a busybox prompt.  Does that sort of thing not happen on the tablet if it is severely but not hopelessly broken?20:10
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Jaffamouser-: not by default, no20:18
JaffaIt reboots a few times, then starts up in a safe mode20:18
JaffaBut still into the desktop environment20:18
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Stskeepsmouser-: initramfs thing20:31
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lcuktheres a snake in my boots!20:47
qwerty12_N800fry it20:47
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lcuki cant, its a big motherf20:48
summatusmentislcuk: a snake in both of your boots?20:49
lcuki told you, its big (and also a glitch ;) ) i noticed after i posted20:50
* lcuk guesses jacob found his pullstring woody20:50
lardmanqwerty12_N800: fried snake, tastes like chicken I imagine20:50
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qwerty12_N800lardman, now I want to try it :/. anyone willing to ship me a snake via Her Majesty's postal service?20:51
lcuki could, but it would have to be airmail20:52
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Khertan_n810Hi again20:52
lcukhiya khertan20:52
Khertan_n810freeciv is really slow on n81020:52
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Khertan_n810hello lcuk20:54
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lardmanqwerty12_N800: probably easier to do that than send party poppers20:54
* lardman dislikes all these postal rules, hinders the model rocket making20:55
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lardmanI wonder who to talk to about this new Nokia location api20:56
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lcuklardman :D im sure you will find someone20:59
lardmanyeah, I imagine so :)20:59
lcukmodel rocket making :) now theres a hobby with high ambition21:00
* lcuk puts his helicopter away21:00
X-FadeWater bottle rocket? :)21:00
lardmanno, solid propellant21:00
* Khertan_n810 really hate gdata !!!21:00
lardmangood fun blowing stuff up :)21:01
lardmannot enough summer this year to get started though :(21:01
X-FadeHeh, yeah weather is a pain.21:01
lcuk^^^^ watch that lard21:02
X-FadeI fly RC helis, very weather dependent too.21:02
lardman - I thought I'd try something hard, making an ejector seat :)21:02
lcukheh - especially taking an indoor one outdoors21:02
* lcuk once did that :$21:02
lardmanlcuk: cool21:02
lardmanX-Fade: with rockets?! Please!21:03
t_s_ohmm, a cortex based gumstick...21:03
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lardmansupper beckons, bbiab21:03
lcukinternet controlled solid propellant cruise rockets are banned arent they? even if you have a nokia logo on the side21:03
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X-Fadelcuk: Nah, mine weigh 00 and21:04
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lardman|foodlcuk: lol, I don't fancy losing any expensive hw, this is pretty cool though:
X-Fadelcuk: Nah, mine weigh 500 and about 850 gram. But still ;)21:05
lcuklardman|food, WOW21:05
lcukand X-Fade you make rockets too? or just helis?21:05
X-FadeNah, just helis..21:06
X-FadeWorking on my 3d skills. Inverted flight etc.21:07
lcuki stopped flying mine when i started to get a bit too cocky with it - was an indoor one and after rebuilding a few times sussed how to get around everywhere21:07
lcukheh, just start your inversion high enough that you can recover21:08
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Stskeeps"Anyone managed to get KDE running on 770?", oh dear god, oh dear god no.21:08
X-Fadelcuk: yeah, I ordered a new one btw:
X-Fadelcuk: Although this pilot has more skills than me ;)21:09
lcukawww - i thought it was you in the hat! ;)21:10
X-FadeHeh no ;)21:10
lcukhes not flying - hes falling with style21:10
* lcuk prefers precision to bouncing everywhere21:11
X-FadeYes, I'm more into the sport flying. Fast forward flight..21:11
lcukboy racer :D21:11
lcukhave you seen the hover boat thingies..21:12
X-FadeHmm got to go. bbl.21:12
lcukk x21:12
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lardman|foodlcuk: did you blow X-Fade a kiss as he left? :D21:26
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lcukyes lardman x :P21:26
lcukwhat it really means is i simply missed the tab key21:27
lardmanah, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;)21:27
qwerty12_N800right.. we believe you ;p21:27
BugBlue*this* is f****** annoying21:29
BugBlueNokia-N810-23-14:~# gps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 12-20021:29
BugBlueDATA T=1225222115 M=3 EPT=0.005 LAT=51.910451 LON=5.497239 EPH=28.000 ALT=7.500 EPV=24.000 TRK=203.100 EPD=nan SPD=0.051 EPS=56.000 CLMB=0.000 EPC=nan PTCH=nan ROLL=nan DIP=nan SU=0 S=0 HS=21:29
BugBluegps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 13-20021:29
BugBlueTA T=1225222122 M=3 [..]21:29
BugBlueI increase the cut -b with 1 and it cuts 2 extra21:29
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lardmanwhat happens if you use -c rather than -b ?21:30
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BugBluethat does solve the problem21:31
lardmangood good21:31
lardmanlooks like your byte size is wrong for some reason21:31
BugBlueNokia-N810-23-14:~# set|grep -i utf21:32
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BugBluelet's take a another N810 tomorrow and test from scratch21:32
lardmanI don't imagine it's a silicon problem ;)21:32
BugBluemore about software21:34
BugBlueand I hate to flash my 'work' N810.. that thing I do use21:34
lardmanmight be a bug in busybox cut?21:34
Stskeepsyeah, i was just about to say21:35
Stskeepsbusybox is evil21:35
lardmanhmm, metromap works pretty well21:36
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: a second thing i hope to demonstrate with my jffs2 stuff is simply, "we don't need busybox on n8x0 and above"21:36
BugBluedid I mention that it's f**8 annoying?21:36
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, Cool :). I  want to see a coreutils build with ls + rm that doesn't segfault :)21:38
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BugBlueshould be possible on armel21:39
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BugBlueI've got some recompiled opensuse running om arm routerboard 532 boxes21:40
qwerty12_N800yeah, i should stop being lazy and compile etch's oone21:40
BugBluethat does work without busybox21:40
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suihkulokkiqwerty12_N800: debian/armel most certainly comes with coreutils that doesn't segfault :921:41
qwerty12_N800hehe, be a disaster if it did :p21:42
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* Stskeeps wonders why mojo went with "arm" of all things for arch name21:44
BugBluemaybe because it's a Acorn RISC Machine21:44
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RST38hmoo again21:53
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Stskeepsqwerty12_: does 2.6.27 g_ether work with xp if you happen to knwo?21:55
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, according to zap, who put a lot of time into this issue, the problem is in 2.6.21's musb, not the g_ether21:59
zapthe difference between g_ether in 2.6.18 (which worked) and 2.6.21 (which doesn't) is very small if I remember correctly22:00
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RST38hhey, has frong been committed to extras with the source code? =)22:12
infobotRST38h meant: hey, has fring been committed to extras with the source code? =)22:12
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: alright22:13
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BilawHello all!22:40
* lcuk never thought he had an opinion on upgrading till today22:40
lcukhiya bilaw22:40
BilawFor some reason I can't reflash my tablet!22:40
Bilaw(hello lcuk!)22:40
Bilawthe Terminal states: sudo: ./flasher-3.0: command not found22:41
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lcuki dunno the linux way :$   (im so ashamed to say that)22:42
melmothIs ./flasher-3.0 readable and executable ?22:42
Bilaw(I am in the correct directory... And I tried this, too: "sudo: ./flasher-3.0.amd64: command not found")22:42
Bilaw-- nevermind that, lcuk! Remember this talk we had yesterday?22:42
macouteBilaw: you really do have that file22:43
BilawWell I tried and install Deblet AND update some new maemo thing: my tablet won't turn on, now!!22:43
macoutels flasher-3.022:43
lcukheh bilaw :) no i have a very poor memory22:43
macouteBilaw: did you do that?22:43
Bilaw-- macoute: I'm checking this!22:44
macouteand have you tried chmod +x flasher-3.022:44
BilawAaaaah! Thats the one I missed! Thank you macoute!!22:44
macouteBilaw: np :)22:45
vincenzo88Goodbye all ;=)22:46
BilawHang on: sudo ./flasher-3.0.amd64 -F <RX-44_DIABLO_4.2008.23-14_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin> -f -R22:46
Bilaw==> "-R : no suche file or directory"22:46
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macoutewhy < and >?22:46
macoutedid you actually wrote them?22:46
qwerty12_N800Bilaw, swap the -F and the -f22:46
macouteah, but qwerty12_N800 is right22:47
macoutethe error message states that its trying to use file "-R"22:47
BilawOK, I'll drop the < and >! (But I copied it from the maemo wiki!!)22:47
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macouteso -f must be for "file"22:47
qwerty12_N800-f means to flash, -F means a fiasco image and the bin goes after the -F22:48
Bilaw(apparently it was enough w/out the ><22:48
Bilaw... I'll keep you posted of any further development!22:48
Bilawbut many thanks for the help!22:48
macouteqwerty12_N800: but apparently the order of flags is not relevant22:49
qwerty12_N800macoute, yeah, my bad22:49
lardmanwell the filename has to come immediately after the -F, but other than that no22:49
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Bilaw(bother not about this, brothers, it has flashed... Now of course I need to check what the Deblet attempt did...)22:50
* qwerty12_N800 runs -R in a separate flasher process. i noticed flasher jumped the gun with rebooting when i flashed one of my initfs images22:51
BilawI'll try and remember that, qwerty12_N800, but hopefully I wont have to reflash too often!22:52
Bilaw(wait, qwerty12_N800: isnt -R standing for "recursive"?)22:52
qwerty12_N800Bilaw, reboot22:53
qwerty12_N800I want to see an N8*0 flashing another N8*0 via usb host and a 0xffff compile :p22:54
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Bilaw(Diantre! Still more to learn 'bout Linux, huh?)22:54
Bilawwhat's 0xfff, qwerty12_N800?22:54
melmothan open source flasher i think22:55
lardmanBilaw: fyi
gomiam0xfff=4091, right?22:55
qwerty12_N800Bilaw, an open source flasher, i stick to using flasher-3.0 on the computer though22:55
Bilaw// Alright, people, and NOW another attempt at installing Deblet! Let's completely crash the Tablet AGAIN!22:57
qwerty12_N800hmm, what's the easiest way to make bash move all files from subfolders into one folder?22:58
BilawScott Grannemann's "Linux"?22:58
macoutemv -r?22:58
macouteqwerty12_N800: mv -R?22:58
macoutemv -R foobar foo moves foobar and its subfolders to foo22:59
BilawAre you serious, qwerty12_N800? Would you really like me to look it up in my book?22:59
qwerty12_N800my bad,i mean all files from each folder into one without the original folders22:59
qwerty12_N800Bilaw, Nah, thank you but I'll figure it out :)23:00
BilawShouldn't it include some -p, too, and several *s?23:01
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qwerty12_N800just found i  don't need to do it, wget has a no directories option :)23:04
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Bilawwget has an effing number of incroyables options!23:11
aquatixwget is the shizzle23:11
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lbtqwerty12_N800: find . -print0 | xargs -0 mv \{} .23:16
lbtmm - probably a --type f too23:16
BilawAlrigh, I'm off, people, thanks for your help, all!23:17
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lbtI got gpe-calendar sync'ing with egroupware. But now it segfaults. I'm sad.23:18
qwerty12_N800lbt, Thanks! I'm always forgetting xargs :)23:18
lcuk:( lbt23:18
lcukhi there23:19
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lbtit's been *weeks* since I've done any nit stuff...23:19
lcukyeah, feels the same for me23:20
lbthow's liqbase going? I've had irc on and seen comments - sounds like it's moving along :)23:20
lcukor rather stuff i want to do23:20
lcukyeah, theres a real proper package and its in extras now and properly installable and stuff :D23:21
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lcuki finally got over my headfunk and actually got it saving images23:21
lcukso now theres a usable camera app included :)23:22
lbteek - my nit won't run application manager...23:22
lcukthats not a good thing23:23
MangoFusionliqbase is in extras?23:23
qwerty12_N800apt-get ftw *grin*23:23
lcuk   info here, and the video of my berlin presentation23:23
lbtopen (30 Read-only file system)23:23
lcukreboot? reflash?23:24
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lcukfair enough, yeah - it went down a treat in berlin23:24
lcukcame away with more things i need to try though than when i went (always the same)23:24
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lcukand i had a push and ironed out all the things in a testing period and moved myself away from my little dev folder home and properly into garage :)23:26
macoutelcuk: i actually demoed your program in nokia flagship store, too :)23:26
lcuk\o/ nice23:26
lcuki hope to as well one day :P23:27
moontigerlcuk, camera stuff using gstreamer?23:27
macoutebut they are mostly just salespersonnel, but i told them to tell nokia that this is what we need :P23:27
lbtEEEEEK    Buffer I/O error on device mmcblk0p2, logical block 227367
qwerty12_N800lcuk, you will be known all over Suomi :p23:27
lcukyes :)23:28
lcuki entered the "callingallinnovators" competition :$23:28
lcukhow the hell did i actually know what you meant then qwerty, and more importantly how did you know what it meant23:29
macoutein "suomi"? :)23:29
qwerty12_N800lcuk, 1. No idea, 2. i like to know facts like that for some reason :)23:30
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lcukjust wait till you are old and then you realise random facts just push out the good stuff :P23:31
lcukyes macoute23:31
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macoutebut I knew that too? :D23:31
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lcukheh :D the embedded video actually works23:32
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gregoroviuslcuk: are you doing video in liqbase?23:36
lcukno gregorovius, i havent tried yet - looking more closely at animation that video23:37
lcukthan ^23:37
gregoroviusah, I misunderstood23:37
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lcukthe camera is just a sideshoot really, just another way to get data into the system and also to identify users23:38
* Jaffa ponders. Another Frasier, or bed & read23:39
lcukwhat you reading at the mo jaffa?23:40
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JaffaKate Mosse's _Sepulchre_ (but spelt right)23:40
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Jaffalcuk: Read _Labyrinth_ whilst on holiday in the place where it was set, in the same summer it was set. Also decided to read a Dan Brown book to see if it lived up to the hype. That only further emphasised the quality of the other book ;-)23:41
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lcukjaffa spelling it right, sounds cool23:42
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lcukthere is something timeless in a book which computers and lots of other modern mediums lack23:43
JaffaThis is structured very similarly to _Labyrinth_ and you can sort of see where it'll be going if you read the other; but it's well written and compelling, so still fun23:43
Jaffalcuk: indeed.23:43
melmothbest thing with book is the battery life expectancy23:44
lcuki sent my book back to amazon the other day - i couldnt see it to read in bed, and no matter what i did i couldnt brighten it up without also destroying the pages i was trying to read23:45
lcuki would get halfway down and the smouldering would catch up23:45
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* Jaffa offs. g'night23:45
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lcuklol gnite23:45
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lbthey lcuk - very nice :)23:47
lcuklbt, it best be, ive tried to build something similar for years now.  the best thing is this is just the start23:48
lcukthis really has been the first time ive put enough pieces together to know in myself that im on the right path23:48
lbtWell, I'm seriously impressed :)23:48
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lcukheh lbt, next year i get to do it all again, but hopefully without any hacks23:49
lbtIt would be interesting to see what you could expose as a gfx library/toolkit23:49
lcukyes absolutely23:49
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lcukthat part was key to open sourcing it, even if i cannot manage to do it - its proven that it can be done in a specific case23:50
lcuksomeone will come along with enough will and desire to try themselves :)23:50
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qwerty12_N80Olbt, thinking about that, did you ever use directfb in initfs successfully?23:51
lcukand anyway lbt, it already is a library - i just havent broken it into pieces yet23:51
lbtqwerty12_N80O: no, work jumped up and bit me. I was building tslib23:52
qwerty12_N80Oah, ok :)23:52
lcuklbt, tslib for our devices, or in work?23:52
lbtin uclib for the initial boot23:53
qwerty12_N80Oi built mtd-tools for initfs and that's it :p23:53
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lbtso we could have a touch based multiboot23:53
lbtor liqOS ?23:53
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whodathow do i get automake installed on the n810?23:57
whodatapt-get install automake1.9, and get: "Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested..."23:57
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