IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-10-26

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BugBlueAstralStorm: I do have a BT one that does charge over USB... a real cheap one... can tell you more tomorrow00:05
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i so just did a good old fashioned community suicide by this post probably00:07
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: but let's see how the community reacts & quim, - i think i may have done a bit too much of conciousness streaming there00:09
Stskeepsnot on archive yet00:10
qwerty12_N800not in my inbox :p00:11
Stskeeps.. yeah, just remembered to actually confirm my subscription00:12
Stskeepsim off to bed else gf will kill me00:15
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ShadowJK_There's one big thing that determined winners and losers in the explosion of personal computers that happened throughout the 80s, the systems with the most programs won :P00:20
JaffaTrue; but which came first ;-)00:22
Jaffai.e. which is cause; and which is effect00:22
* Jaffa sleeps.00:22
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AstralStormas for the GPS recv. it has to be small, esp. thin00:23
AstralStormthicker than n810 = nono00:23
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orangeyhow can I debug the SIP software?01:02
orangeyI'm getting a crazy number of incomplete calls01:02
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TokyoDanMornin' everybody. What shells are used in N810 user and root accounts? Bourne, bash, korn?01:29
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orangeyTokyoDan: good question.01:33
orangeyTokyoDan: why not just busybox?01:34
orangeyis that a shell?01:34
melmoth /etc/password says /bin/sh , it belong to busybox01:34
l7doesn't the n810 use ash as the shell?01:35
l7that's what the n800 uses and the OS should be the same01:35
AstralStormthey both use busybox sh of sorts01:37
AstralStormit's not exactly full ash01:37
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TokyoDanIf both root and user use busybox sh then why are the prompts different?01:42
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orangeydifferent in what sense?01:43
orangey# vs $?01:43
orangeythat's standard distinction between root and non-root01:43
TokyoDanYes. and isn't "sh" bourne? so maybe busybox is a clone.01:43
orangeysh can be anything01:43
TokyoDanThat's all?01:43
TokyoDanI thought it was standardized that sh is the brompt for bourne.01:44
orangeynot at all.01:44
orangeysh is probably the least standard.01:44
orangeyand will generally be hijacked by whatever the default shell is01:44
orangeyperhaps at some point it was.01:44
orangey$ ls -l /bin/sh01:44
orangeylrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 2006-09-09 19:28 /bin/sh -> dash01:44
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orangeyand that's on ubuntu!01:44
TokyoDanok, mine is /bin/sh -> busybox on my n81001:46
TokyoDanNow I wonder where the environments variables are kept.01:46
orangeybasically what we we were saying01:46
orangeythe variables are generally kept in .profile01:46
orangeynot sure specifically for busybox01:47
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TokyoDanWell now I know what to search for when looking for  shell script syntax/commands.01:48
orangeythere are subtle differences that can get infuriating if you don't realize that busybox =/= bash01:48
TokyoDansupposedly the busybox guys hang out at #uclibc01:49
orangeyno idea01:50
TokyoDanWell I've been playing with the $PATH variable in .profile so that I can run an executable Python script from my home directory but no matter what I do I get command not found errors.01:50
orangeybut I would doubt you need to ask them for much unless you're doing some pretty low-level coding01:50
TokyoDanYeah, the wiki is best.01:51
orangeyI have to head out, but good luck with it. if you make sure that the environmental variables work, then just google around to see.01:51
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orangeyit may be .profile, .bashrc or something else.01:51
orangeygood luck!01:52
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melmothTonnerre: are you sure the python script start with the path to python (#!/usr/bin/python2.5) ?01:53
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TokyoDanHello melmoth. just go back from breakfast. Yes. my script starts with that.02:53
TokyoDanMy script  is in my current directory, I type at the prompt and i get: "-sh: not fount02:56
TokyoDanI got it. It runs if i type ./Hello1.py02:59
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hellwolfNow I know why avahi-daemon didn't start on my diablo system now, in rc2.d it should be started after some other things, I now put it to S99avahi-daemon, it starts now03:13
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, community suicide? Why? That all sounds a lot like what most people would like to see.03:37
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orangeyhey all.04:03
orangeyI just installed scratchbox.04:03
orangeybut I can't seem to do much with the armel version04:03
orangeyno network, etc.04:03
orangeyhow do I set it up so it looks just like my n810?04:03
GeneralAntillesThe testing environment is pointless and a waste of time.04:04
GeneralAntillesJust test on the tablet.04:04
orangeyGeneralAntilles: well, I am trying to do this for developers sans tablet.04:06
orangeyfor example, I have a bug I'm trying to work on.04:07
GeneralAntillesThe "emulation" really isn't emulation04:07
GeneralAntillesit's about as fake of a tablet environment as you can get04:07
orangeybug's here:
GeneralAntillesYou don't set it up like the tablet.04:07
orangeyThe Callcentric people are willing to play.04:07
GeneralAntillesThere's emulation being worked on04:07
GeneralAntillesbut it's not ready yet04:08
orangeyand I want them to have something to call from instead of always asking me to make the calls, etc.04:08
orangeyGeneralAntilles: is it in any way possible just to get rtcomm on there and working to make test calls?04:08
orangeyi.e., sound and such?04:08
GeneralAntillesIt sounds like a NAT issue to me.04:08
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GeneralAntillesNo, there's no chance of that working.04:08
orangeyGeneralAntilles: that's unfortunate.04:08
GeneralAntillesEh, it is what it si04:09
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Eh, it is what it is04:09
GeneralAntillesPick up a used N800.04:09
orangeyGeneralAntilles: anyhow: You're saying it's probably a NAT issue?04:09
GeneralAntillesAlmost always is with SIP weirdness.04:09
orangeyGeneralAntilles: how do I debug it further? Because my calls work with other services.04:09
orangeyand, in fact, my calls work with Callcentric with *other numbers*04:09
orangeyGeneralAntilles: Anyhow, I'm motivated to get this working, since Callcentric is my primary phone number, and the current arrangement is a complete nuissance (I have to use Click2Dial)04:12
orangeyif you wish to play with it / test it / whatnot, I'll gladly put some money on your callcentric account04:12
orangeyFor that matter, is there such a thing as maemo bounties?04:13
GeneralAntillesOn Garage04:13
GeneralAntillesI've only ever heard of one being paid out.04:13
orangeyWhere would they go?04:14
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GeneralAntillesAnybody else find that as bizarre as me?04:55
orangeyGeneralAntilles: is he talking about an aftermarket protector?05:00
orangeyI would guard a bit of the guy's dignity.05:00
orangeyhe has an n810 with a bad screen.05:00
orangeyso long as you can prove it's otherwise OK, who cares?05:00
GeneralAntillesPresumably the factory shipping protector.05:00
orangeywhat factory shipping protector?05:01
GeneralAntillesThe one that Nokia ships them with.05:01
orangeyyou mean we're supposed to keep that on?05:01
GeneralAntillesIt's a shipping protector05:01
orangeyI see what he's saying.05:01
orangeyyeah, he's lying.05:01
orangeyit's unlikely stolen.05:01
orangeybut probably he did something to it05:01
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GeneralAntillesOr just stupid05:02
GeneralAntillesIn which case, he can save himself some money by sending it to Nokia for repair.05:02
ShadowJK_The outermost layer of plastic on the screen is kinda loose on teh edges so I wouldn't be surprised if someone mistook it for shipping protector...05:02
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GeneralAntillesYou can't peel the touch layer off.05:03
GeneralAntillesIt's integrated with the LCD.05:03
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orangeyclearly he's lying.05:06
orangeyGeneralAntilles: there you go. I called him out a bit more.05:09
orangeyI think it's only fair to warn any possible buyers outright.05:09
GeneralAntillesYou get some bizarre sellers on itT.05:09
GeneralAntillesI like the guys who start verbally abusing potential buyers.05:10
orangeythey can't verbally abuse them : )05:10
orangeybut I take the point05:10
orangeysounds desirable05:11
GeneralAntillesApparently it works well enough05:12
GeneralAntillesThough it does make it a bit fat.05:12
orangeyand probably won't fit so well in my case.05:12
orangeyI would personally prefer to carry two batteries than one whopper.05:12
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GeneralAntillesSuch a pain to micromanage battery charging05:13
GeneralAntillesBut that's why I travel with a 770.05:13
GeneralAntillesI wonder if this really does have an extra 300mAh
orangeywhy? The 770 has a great battery life?05:14
orangeyI've only ever known the 81005:14
orangeyand it's amazing.05:14
orangeythough I shake my head at the GPS.05:14
GeneralAntillesNah, easy battery charger for the extra battery for my N800. ;)05:15
GeneralAntillesThe GPS was probably bundled for free from TI with the OMAP2420.05:15
GeneralAntillesIt's about the cheapest cellular GPS they make.05:15
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GeneralAntillesNow that's a suspicious reply.05:16
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orangeyGeneralAntilles: the photos check out05:39
orangeyI think the guy just scored the nokia by dropping it or stabbing it or something falling on it.05:40
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fiekiais it a bad idea to move my directories to /dev/mmc2?06:19
GAN800Well, considering it a. doesn't exist and b. isn't actually a filesystem. . . .06:29
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GAN800Still isn't a filesystem. ;)06:30
GAN800That'd be /media/mmc206:31
* GeneralAntilles really hates anything and everything to do with cellular.06:36
ShadowJK_What directories?06:36
GeneralAntillesThose self-proclaimed cellular pundits on itT are incredibly tiresome.06:37
ShadowJK_what does pundits mean?06:38
ShadowJK_link to examples? :-)06:38
GeneralAntillesYour google-fu is weak. . . .06:39
ShadowJK_I meant on itt06:39
GeneralAntillesAh, that.06:39
GeneralAntillesPractically anything posted by johnkzin.06:39
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ShadowJK_how much more CPU intensive can you make a forum anyway.. sigh06:40
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GeneralAntillesI wish Reggie would fix the minimalist theme and make it the default.06:40
GeneralAntillesPeople are too fixated on making "mobile" layouts06:40
GeneralAntillesThey just need to make regular layouts that don't suck ass.06:40
ShadowJK_I don't even see a "unfuck the site" link anywhere, or anything that looks like it'd do that :P06:42
GeneralAntillesThere's a styles dropdown on the bottom left of most pages.06:42
GeneralAntillesThe old style is lighter06:42
GeneralAntillesor you can you one of the mobile styles, but they're missing features.06:42
ShadowJK_oh there06:42
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RST38hKrisse is now seriously pissed off.07:14
* RST38h guesses commenters were real hard on him07:15
GAN800Worse than 6 hours ago?07:15
RST38h6 hours ago I was asleep so can't compare07:15
RST38hDefintely more pissed than yesterday though07:15
GAN800Ah, guess not then.07:15
GAN800Somewhat weird, but I've never put much stock in his prediction ability07:16
GAN800Symbian guy07:16
RST38hWell, he appears to spell doom predictions correctly07:17
RST38hI am just not buying his cures07:17
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ComradeCactaurAnyone here familiar with gpe-calendar?07:44
ComradeCactaurBecause, I can't figure out how to view events between 7 pm and 7am.07:44
ComradeCactaurIt doesn't scroll, and none of the buttons do anything to help.07:45
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* Stskeeps yawns10:11
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qwerty12~curse effing time changes10:11
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, effing time changes !10:11
* qwerty12 came down at "8:00 AM" to find it was really 7:00 AM10:12
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, why community suicide?10:12
JaffaMorning, all10:13
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: well initial thought after sending the mail, but that's probably just to deal with low self esteem :)10:13
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I can't image where that'd be coming from. :) Those all sounded like things the community would eat up. ;)10:14
JaffaDidn't seem too outlandish10:14
Stskeepsand it would be a huge boost for maemo really.. i -think- i'm right in my assumption that there's no other real "good" user-oriented platforms than maemo for low cpu/power devices10:15
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GeneralAntillesI do think it should go into a wiki page, though.10:16
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GeneralAntillesLittle more detailed and a lot less transient.10:17
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GeneralAntillesSomething management could be shown.10:17
Stskeepshehe, executive summary10:18
Stskeepswe'll see if the nokia people takes the bait first, otherwise it doesn't matter that much to making it structured10:18
GeneralAntillesQuim used the argument that neither Ubuntu nor Debian target armv610:18
GeneralAntillesThat kinda seems like bull to me10:19
GeneralAntillesI mean, they just gotta recompile, right?10:19
GeneralAntillesWell, problem is, the people empowered to make major decisions like that generally don't frequent the lists.10:20
GeneralAntillesand giving Quim something concrete to point to will help.10:21
GeneralAntillesI'd like to hear what Eero and Igor think, though.10:21
Stskeepsyeah, they seem to be closer to the core, - i'd like to see some community comments as well so it's just not a dream by a few people10:21
GeneralAntillesWell, practically speaking, what does it mean for most people?10:22
GeneralAntillesMore software, easier development?10:22
GeneralAntillesI can't imagine anybody being against that. ;)10:22
GeneralAntillesJaffa, do you want to blog a bit about this, or are you gonna make me do it? :P10:23
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* Jaffa boggling at people who think Maemo - and Nokia - have anything much to contribute to a low-end market in which everyone else is attempting to compete.10:29
GeneralAntillesEverybody's got a netbook10:30
GeneralAntillespractically nobody has a tablet10:30
Stskeepsi've met people who would actually prefer a tablet to a netbook10:30
* GeneralAntilles raises his hand.10:30
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Stskeepsfor sake of touch screens and being able to write notes / formulas etc that way for studies10:31
GeneralAntillesBy "everybody" I mean "every manufacturer"10:31
Stskeepseven if it's microsoft, , they have the right idea10:33
Stskeeps(look for tablets in there too)10:33
Stskeepsand honestly, netbooks is just a continuation of the "PC" model, whereas a paradigm shift is needed10:34
Stskeepsaway from the traditional desktop10:34
GeneralAntillesIt's interesting that krisse would say the tablet market is dead when most everybody else says the market's going to explode in a couple years.10:35
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Stskeepsdevices are getting smaller and the tendancies are already there10:36
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Stskeepsand huge research money is put into ubiquitous computing :P10:38
Stskeeps (or whatever people name it)10:38
Jaffaindeed; much more interesting form factor10:41
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: <- the traditional ubiqutious computing paper, for inspiration :P10:51
t_s_ohrmf, why am i getting the feeling that canola is doing to the tablets what arcohs are doing to the pmp, but in reverse? or maybe i should say full circle, as i sometimes feel as if canola is a os running on top of a os...11:12
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t_s_ough, now im thinking that if nokia took canola, put microb and a calendar inside it and presented it as fremantle, a lot of the community would hail it as a gift from god...11:15
melmothis canola free software yet ?11:16
GeneralAntillesmelmoth, technically, yes.11:16
GeneralAntillesSource isn't out yet, though.11:17
GeneralAntillesShould be in a couple months.11:17
melmothgood news.11:17
GeneralAntillest_s_o, hehe, I've had thoughts like that myself.11:17
GeneralAntillesThough, replace "OS" with "desktop environment".11:17
t_s_owell the DE is the os more often then not these days...11:17
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GeneralAntillesNot by definition, but I get your point. ;)11:18
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t_s_obah, i really wish that microb had a way to hand of task to third party apps, like say doing youtube or other flash videos outside of the browser window with mplayer...11:19
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GeneralAntillesIt does11:20
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GeneralAntillesMake a plugin11:20
GeneralAntillesNobody's stepped up to put something nice together yet, though. :(11:20
t_s_owhere is the docs for that?11:20
GeneralAntillesShouldn't be radically different from regular Mozilla plugins.11:21
qwerty12t_s_o: Code for some plugins:
qwerty12t_s_o: my bad11:21
* qwerty12 thought you were talking about canola plugins11:21
* GeneralAntilles pokes qwerty12 with a stick.11:22
qwerty12t_s_o: The mplayer plugin is a nice place to start from then:
qwerty12GeneralAntilles: heh11:22
t_s_oheh, i just found that one11:22
t_s_oanother option would be for some simple way to copy a media url onto the clipboard for the user to paste anywhere one would like11:25
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qwerty12For me, what could work is using something like pipeline's dbus-switchboard to send the youtube mime type to mplayer and using a greasemonkey script to put the link to the flv directly on the youtube page11:26
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GeneralAntillesYeah, that sounds like a logical plan.11:26
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GAN800RST38h, ping.11:38
t_s_oqwerty12: thanks for reminding me of greasemonkey11:39
t_s_oi keep forgetting about its potential utility11:40
qwerty12heh, I need to reinstall it. *fingers crossed* it works in diablo11:40
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GAN800RST38h, new VGB has the framebuffer changes?11:43
* Jaffa spots krisse's thread on ITT where Internet Tablet School is being closed down because a) there's no future in the tablets; b) lots (i.e. 8) thumbs on for that post.11:45
GAN800You might consider using Maemo-Update-Description and checking to see if a menu location has already been selected wheb updating.11:46
RST38hyou all managed to piss Krisse off, you evil clowns!11:46
GAN800I can coerce qwerty12 into providing a patch if you want. :D11:46
* Jaffa can live with himself for pissing *anyone* off ;-)11:46
RST38hGAN: Zap told me how to do it once but I forgot =(11:46
JaffaI do it all day at work11:46
RST38hit is basically an extra line in postinst, if I remember correctly11:46
* GAN800 pokes qwerty1211:46
GAN800probably something that needs to go in my packaging tips wiki page.11:47
RST38hJaffa: IT helpdesk? =)11:47
qwerty12Jaffa: I'm more inclined to think it's because he can't think of anything more to provide articles on. I mean, come on, his view of the "future of maemo" isn't a tutorial.11:47
qwerty12RST38h: Wait a sec11:47
JaffaGAN800: Eh? There's now a header, Maemo-Update-Description to give a small changelog for a new package? I remember the discussion about it on -developers (I think I even suggested a package header), but don't remember *any* communication about the feature actually being implemented11:48
RST38hGAN: Just use VGB postinst as a sample - it includes all the possible things one would want to do during installation11:48
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RST38hFrom updating caches to cleaning gconf11:48
JaffaRST38h: Senior Architect. I get to tell code monkeys who are a grade above me that their idea's crap ;-)11:48
Jaffaqwerty12: true11:48
GAN800Jaffa, it's on the h-a-m garage page.11:48
JaffaGAN800: That doesn't count as communication. Developers don't watch that looking for new features to make people's lives easier.11:49
RST38hJaffa: As long as it works...11:49
GAN800Jaffa, oh, sorry, I was just going for the technical details. ;D11:49
JaffaRST38h: ah, no - that's not the only criteria in this case (though I accept sometimes that is)11:49
JaffaGAN800: No, I meant the "good news, package maintainers: you can now help your users know what the upgrade is going to do for them with ..."11:49
GAN800Jaffa, yeah, I got you.11:50
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t_s_ohmm, i suspect that greasemonkey do not work in diablo...11:51
t_s_oor maybe i spoke to soon...11:52
qwerty12RST38h: Use this: . Though, solmumaha tells me this way isn't entirely the best as $2 can mean more than just an upgrade11:53
qwerty12RST38h: Though, why do you insist on removing vgb settings on each upgrade :)11:53
RST38hthanks =)11:54
RST38hqwerty: If some bit layouts change, those setting will become a problem for you11:57
qwerty12Ah, ok11:57
qwerty12I was wondering why my last used rom didn't show up when I upgraded vgb :)11:57
qwerty12Time to see if gimp from svn can open a "raw rgb (24 bits)" :)12:00
RST38hEpic fuckup in the making:
zapwhat are "framebuffer changes"?12:00
RST38hzap: I went from GdkImage to using fb blitting/scaling directly when in full screen mode12:03
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aquatixmorning all12:07
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* RST38h continues getting spam in Polish. What did I do? 12:08
RST38hWhose mailbox have I been to?12:08
zapthat should be alot faster12:11
zaphave you measured any numbers?12:12
aquatixRST38h: oh shit12:15
aquatixsomething with
Stskeepsi can recommend polish gfs :P12:16
* aquatix has a dutch one12:16
aquatixalso very nice ;)12:16
GAN800zap, anecdotally speaking, crazy fast. ;)12:23
* Jaffa should do some chores before hacking on the App Mgr source12:24
GAN800Should be pretty straightforward to get it to remember category position, no?12:27
RST38hSts: I do not think they will be any better thanlocal offerings12:28
RST38hzap: Well, there is a frame rate limiter and it reaches the limit now12:28
RST38hzap: even in VGBA12:28
qwerty12Jaffa: Willing to finish off the toggable show legal warnings patch?12:28
RST38hall right, off for a stroll in the park12:29
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zaplast time I tried vgba it was slow12:33
zapumm, is it in repo now?12:33
GAN800qwerty12, how about an osv-c to go with it? ;)12:33
GAN800zap, yes.12:33
* zap updates updates updates12:33
zapRST38h: by the way, what audio subsystem are you using? SDL?12:34
GAN800Could be devel, though.12:34
qwerty12GAN800: I'm having trouble with the patch, I shudder at thinking about attempting osv-c12:34
GAN800It's just playing with dependencies, though.12:35
* GAN800 wonders where jott's hiding. :(12:36
t_s_obah, i need a book on javascript, at least, to make sense of anything...12:36
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qwerty12Grr, it would be nice if I could get to actually be in blue...12:47
GAN800Got enough color bits?12:48
qwerty12Ah, my bad, looks like I should read the help properly. Imagemagick can only display that file in monochrome :/12:49
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t_s_otwo features i would love to see in microb: 1. when images are turned of, a placeholder is put in to allow ease of finding specific image for manual download, 2. when flash is turned of, a placeholder is available for copying of source url...'12:59
t_s_oneither will probably show up as they would violate html specs...12:59
t_s_oat least thats the answer i got when i attempted to file 1 as a bug, and got it tagged as wontfix...13:01
* lcuk shivers13:02
qwerty12hi lcuk13:03
lcukhiya qwerty1213:03
Stskeepsmorning lcuk13:03
lcukhows the good ship #maemo this morning?13:03
lcuko/ sts13:03
* lcuk is at a very difficult crossroads13:05
GAN800t_s_o, wait for Fremantle and you can patch it.13:05
GAN800lcuk, take the fork in the road.13:05
Stskeepslcuk: wife went "tablet or me"? :P13:06
lcukwell one direction involves installing linux on desktop and building something in C for linux desktop, the other involves sticking with windows and writing something in VB13:06
t_s_oGAN800: right now, fremantle holds little appeal to me. until we get confirmed that it will be available on the existing tablets, im going for a pandora :(13:06
GAN800Linux, baby!13:06
GAN800t_s_o, the Pandora practically is an N900. . . .13:07
* lcuk wants a nokia - they HAVE to get us a decent camera on this next model13:07
* Stskeeps really dislikes the fact we have no actual idea about what fremantle really looks like except for various hints13:07
GAN800Stskeeps, problem is, Nokia doesn't know either.13:07
* lcuk has a feeling that nokia doesnt know what fremantle looks like yet either apart for various hints13:07
GAN800Remember, the mockups at the Summit weren't anywhere near finalized.13:08
Stskeepsthat's true13:08
Stskeepsi meant more like system arch though13:08
melmothi would rather have a decent gps than a decent cam13:08
qwerty12Hmm, looks like maemo may be supporting vala?13:08
GAN800Stskeeps, December.13:09
lcuki think your mailing last night was pretty clean sts - but i still think a pretty front end ontop is desirable13:09
lcukqwerty12, its on its way13:09
* lcuk likes vala13:09
StskeepsGAN800: the packages list of fremantle sdk seemed horridly boring though13:09
qwerty12lcuk: ah, cool :). I hear vala is nice except for the compile time :p13:09
lcukyeah - get that licked and we are rocking13:09
t_s_ooptionally, nokia open sources everything they can (no closed source "differenciators") of diablo, and hands it all over to the community...13:09
Stskeepsprobably not going to happen13:10
* lcuk might consider ondemand compilation or *shock* a scripting language 13:10
lcukt_s_o, why not simply use the existing OSS variants out there13:10
GAN800t_s_o, there's zero incentive13:10
Stskeepslcuk: pretty frontend of the system or the pretty front end as in a wiki outlining it more structured?13:10
lcuktheres no real need to open source what they have its just a case of finding the already open rplacements13:10
GAN800Nokia doesn't open source dead codebases.13:10
lcukStskeeps, front end ui13:11
lcukGAN800, agreed - it would be the wrong thing to do13:11
Stskeepslcuk: think putting the line at hildon is sane13:11
Stskeepsthen there's room for play13:11
lcukbetter to find in progress open things13:11
t_s_oso, how about a open replacement for microb?13:11
Stskeepst_s_o: tear, midori..13:11
lcukt_s_o, theres plenty being tried - one will emerge as the winner13:11
GAN800t_s_o, MicroB is open . . .13:11
GAN800You mean tablet-browser-ui13:12
GAN800Important, though13:12
lcuki'm still freezing13:12
Stskeeps <- could easily replace tablet-browser-ui :P13:13
lcukmoving my fingers to type isnt helping much, i need to do more13:13
* GAN800 is comfortable13:13
* Stskeeps has a very bad cold and would very much like to have a clear mind.13:13
lcuk:( headfunk13:14
* qwerty12 is fine and this is with the heater off...13:14
GAN800Hollows out Stskeeps' head13:14
lcukapt-get autoremove gunk13:14
t_s_oones nokia starts referring to the tablet browser as tablet-browser-ui, i will...13:14
* GAN800 's window is open.13:14
lcukheh root canal on sts's brainstem13:14
GAN800t_s_o, they don't refer to it as MicroB13:14
GAN800MicroB is just the engine.13:15
GAN800The community uses it for the whole thing.13:15
lcukok, point from all this: we need a decent browser and the current one looks long in the tooth and doesnt make our nokias shine13:15
t_s_owell, everywhere i read about it, the browser is called microb, so somewhere the message must have gotten garbeled...13:15
GAN800Who wants to discuss 'Mozilla based browser for Maemo'13:16
* lcuk thinks big fat bloated desktop code is overbloat13:16
GAN800Anyway, if you're talking source, it's either MicroB (the open engine) or tablet-browser-ui (the closed ui)13:16
* lcuk seeks nimble code13:16
t_s_oa engine without a ui is virtually useless :(13:17
GAN800It's old13:17
GAN800You get the engine up to speed with trunk and it'll be much faster13:17
* lcuk keeps pondering html engine in liqbase13:17
Stskeepslcuk: webkit? :P13:18
GAN800t_s_o, the difference is still important when discussing code licensing.13:18
t_s_olcuk: now that may make it useful ;)13:18
lcukt_s_o, theres plenty fo things which can be useful13:18
lcuki just dont have the time :)13:18
lcukanyway, ive got this massive decision to make13:18
Stskeepslcuk: i wouldn't mind a bloody fast renderer even if the amount of colours are lower13:18
lcukhow many use windows desktop vs linux desktop13:18
lcukStskeeps, number of colors are the same (infact higher than 16bit rgb) its just theres a few less pixels13:19
GAN800Linux == more suffering in the short term and less in the long.13:19
lcukbut the time to get me running smoothly is great13:19
GAN800But, really, where do you think you are, lcuk. :P13:19
lcuki REALLY want to just jump to a linux touchscreen desktop13:20
lcukwithout messing, preinstalled from scratch all nicely done and works with touch :)13:20
lcukasus eee desktop here i come :)13:20
lcukTHAT will be when i jump from windows13:20
Stskeepslcuk: i use a windows xp desktop, linux tablet, freebsd servers, solaris servers, -- all the right tools for the job13:20
lcukyeah sts13:21
GAN800Touch makes zero sense to me on the desktop.13:21
lcuktouch makes all the sense for me to expand my ideas13:21
lcukright now i want to make the big daddy application liqmaster :)13:21
lcukmy tablet can pair and sync with it and the extra space allows management thats just impractical on a 4" screen13:22
lcukthe alternative is just sod it and create user accounts on and have everything uploaded there13:22
lcukdecisions, decisions13:23
t_s_o <- electronics as fashion statements?13:23
lcukyes absolutely13:24
GAN800What do you think an iPhone is?13:24
lcuki like the pletrum-esq stylus i saw on some nokia video13:24
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t_s_ogot a point there GAN80013:25
t_s_oi guess the same can be said for the people with macbooks on the table at a starbucks style places...13:26
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lcukin the same way many of us know nokia people, does anyone have any contacts in or near asus?13:30
AstralStormis that a phone, or jewelry?13:30
t_s_oa little bit of both, probably...13:31
lcukdoes it matter?13:31
AstralStormalthough the small form factor is nice, I'd drop the extras and release another version13:31
AstralStormcheaper this time13:31
* lcuk didnt know AstralStorm ran a mobile phone company13:32
AstralStormno no13:32
AstralStormI'd sell both13:32
AstralStormthe premium phone will sell too :>13:32
johnx"drop extras"? "cheaper"? Are we thinking about the same Apple?13:33
AstralStormuhm, about LG, not Apple13:33
AstralStormapple will never do this, because it's their brand to be posh and expensive13:34
johnxah, that makes more sense then :)13:34
johnxLG can do cheap impressively13:34
t_s_oLG and samsung comes up with some interesting designs, to bad most of them seem to end up with US operators on exclusive contracts...13:35
johnxor Korean operators :)13:36
AstralStormwell, because they expect to get more money that way13:36
johnxbut either way, it's CDMA I suppose13:36
t_s_otrue that johnx13:36
t_s_oat&t is umts13:36
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t_s_onice, a panucci package on the repos :D13:37
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GAN800I'm impressed by how little AT&T has in their lineup right now.13:37
AstralStormmmmh, Kodak sensor in N97... gimme13:38
AstralStormor in N900 ;>13:38
johnxI just hope it has decent optics...13:38
GeneralAntillesHopefully not too decent. :P13:39
GeneralAntillesI don't want it to be huge.13:39
t_s_oi kinda liked the idea i spotted on a recent samsung flip, the camera was inside the hinge so that it would point down while closed. and they made the the outer screen the same as the inner one, so one could use it as a viewfinder ;)13:39
johnxmore moving parts to break...13:39
t_s_oheh, maybe so ;)13:39
AstralStormGeneralAntilles: optics are small13:40
AstralStormand there's enough space13:40
AstralStormsee those Carl Zeiss they had already13:40
AstralStormthat + excellent sensor = win13:40
GeneralAntillesYes, the N93 was huuuuge13:40
t_s_ohmm, does the browser have some kind of pr filetype download memory? it seems to suggest the right place for debs, but a different for new kinds of files...13:40
AstralStormGeneralAntilles: n810 isn't? :>13:40
lcuk+software to go with it == double plus mega super win13:40
GeneralAntillesAstralStorm, it's not getting any smaller if you add big optics.13:41
* johnx imagines something DSLR sized and shaped, integrating a 4" touchscreen with a speaker and mic along the bottom edge with dials and buttons everywhere and a camcorder battery hanging off one side :)13:41
lcukgan, you dont need perfect optics, theres plenty of "good enough" stuff in camera phones now that dont compromise size for quality too much13:41
AstralStormGeneralAntilles: not that it should get a lot smaller13:42
AstralStormmaybe a cm here13:42
GeneralAntilleslcuk, johnx brought it up.13:42
AstralStormbut there's still enough space to fill in inside13:42
AstralStormcan't be made much thinner obviously13:43
johnxIf the next tablet doesn't support standard DSLR lenses I don't see the point :D13:43
GeneralAntillesjohnx, as long as it's an EF mount. .  .13:43
AstralStormno, it will outcompete cell phones there13:43
johnxI'm keeding :P13:43
lcukinside camera phones, do the camera modules use custom interfaces, or are they basically serial and can be modified to work with usb?13:43
GAN800OMAP has a camera interface13:44
lcukthis extensions 32gb case thing craves1 is making would make an ideal place to put a camera module for 810 if one can be found with sufficient drivers13:44
GAN800You'll have to look at the docs for more.13:45
lcukyes gan, but im thinking NOW13:45
johnxtwp camera interfaces, IIRC13:45
RST38hwhy two?13:46
lcukcamera phone operators dont reinvent the wheel when adding cameras do they (they cant?) i wonder just how simple it would be to get one working13:46
GAN800RST38h, one front, one back.13:47
johnxRST38h, for pictures and video conferencing I'd think13:47
RST38hlcuk: probably as simple as reading i2c device13:47
RST38hgan: ah!13:47
RST38h<-- stupid, didnt think of that13:47
GAN800I want stereovision13:48
lcuk << stereo cameras13:48
lcukjust addsync13:48
GAN800I need to build a camera mount now. . . .13:48
RST38hnot for two tablets I hope...13:49
GAN800Wonder's if there's good software to build 3d images.13:49
lcukyes, criminologists use it13:49
lcukand theres more coming out everyday13:49
JaffaJust go cross-eyed to form the composite.13:50
lcukdarpa robot stuff is making extensive use of it all13:50
GAN800Got a friend who also has an XTi13:50
GAN800Holiday project . . .13:50
* Jaffa wonders if it's worth checking out the 2.2.x branch of Hildon App Mgr.13:51
JaffaBah, I'll see if it compiles on diablo13:51
GAN800Jaffa, let us know if it goes all clutter on yah. ;)13:51
RST38hjust take an image processing class13:52
johnxpress show all and 1,000 3D "packages" fall from the top of the screen with realistic physics?13:52
RST38hand at the end of the semester you will write your own13:52
GAN800RST38h, too much damn work13:52
RST38hnot really =)13:53
lcukjohnx, think more zooming in and entering a cloud of apps13:53
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lcuklarge apps == best rated13:53
johnxthen having to poke at them as they fly past?13:53
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RST38hyou are not processing results from 40 cameras to create a volumetric octree are you?13:53
GAN800I just want to attach two cameras to a 2x4 and the the 2x4 to a tripod. ;)13:53
johnxinstalling packages should require strategy, fast reflexes and patience. It was hard to write, it should be hard to way or the other.13:54
lcukmake sure you get a Johnny #5 head to wrap them in13:54
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lcukheh johnx13:54
RST38hjohnx: well said!13:54
lcukapp uninstallation via doom interface13:54
lcuk(yes i know pskill doom, but this is more final13:54
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GAN800Ahahaha, johnx13:54
RST38hinstalling a package should require typing it in using binary code, with you FullScreen button13:55
lcukyou have to get through several levels just to get to install canola (boss fight)13:55
RST38hfrom water-damaged scraps of printouts13:55
johnxlcuk, after defeating all the "dependencies"?13:55
lcuktransmitted via fax after photographing on a wooden table13:55
lcukheh johnx13:55
lcuktry not to die or you need to insert more credits (lines of code)13:56
RST38hjohnx: after defeating the Python boss13:56
lcukas you develop your skills further more of your GPS map opens up and shows you stuff13:56
johnxthink you're all finished? dist-upgrade sudden death!13:56
GAN800I can only imagine customer satisfaction will go way up13:56
RST38hjohnx: and picking canola out of its anal orifice ( do snakes have those?)13:56
lcukwhen you unwrap your nokia all you can see if your basement13:56
GAN800Rewards are just so much more rewarding when you have to work for them.13:57
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JaffaBah: attempting to compile the hildon-app-mgr trunk: - seems an odd symbol to be missing (a glib one)13:57
RST38hlcuk: that is already better than the current version which does not work in basements13:57
lcuk"you are in a dark basement.  you are likely to be eaten by a grue"13:57
lcukRST38h, AGPS is THAT good13:58
johnx"In dist-upgrade sudden death, one false move leaves your tablet unbootable! You'll have to "reflash" back to the beginning of the game if you lose."13:58
RST38has good as grue?13:58
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RST38hand after 5 reflashes it dies for good13:59
lcukcan YOU master the console in time to beat the upgrade?"13:59
RST38hall right, on with the stroll13:59
lcukbonus levels involve opening vi up and having to navigate its maze13:59
GAN800Sounds easy14:00
* lcuk still hasnt decided on VB server or linux server14:00
qwerty12lcuk: linux or I shoot you14:00
zapVB == visual basic?14:00
johnxGAN800, vi should be puzzle mode: accomplishing "editing tasks" with a minimum of keystrokes :)14:01
JaffaRight, one things I've found out: Hildon App Mgr uses fremantle's glib which'll be >= 2.16. Diablo has 2.12. g_strcmp0 was introduced in 2.16.14:01
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zap'server' and 'basic' are incompatible words14:01
lcukzap :) i can do anything in vb that you could do in any other language, i write code using my "C" cap and make it quick14:02
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Jaffasolmumaha: newer version of glib in fremantle :-)14:02
lcukits kinda object oriented (at least has classes) and lets me draw stuff quickly, linux is like the stone ages :)14:02
zaplcuk: I can do in asm anything you can imagine... however I don't use asm most of the time...14:03
zapfor prototyping python is good14:03
infobotJaffa meant: so: newer version of glib in fremantle :-)14:03
lcukzap - i can use asm in vb as well (and have done in the past)14:03
lcukzap - agreed re: python - i want a ui designer thats integrated with a great editor14:04
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* lcuk keeps thinking of the little bits liqbase would require to output full ui code to link with liqbase14:05
johnxlcuk, making your own OS?14:05
lcukdraw a ui (or photograph one) highlight the input areas14:05
lcukand let the user go at it14:05
lcukno johnx, but i want to speed up development time14:06
johnxfair enough. Just reminds me of emacs somehow14:06
lcuki keep drawing UI screens for nokia14:06
zaplcuk: glade + python works fine14:06
lcukim just lazy and crap out when it comes to actually coding them14:06
lcukglade works on the desktop14:06
lcukbut not well on the tablet14:07
lcukit should be as smooth and simple as liqbase currently is, but project based14:07
zapwell, vb doesnt work on tablet as well :)14:07
lcukwith editing and stuff14:07
lcukthe language is not important, ill put bindings to python or something as required later14:07
lcukor just link to ecmascript or something14:07
lcuki just want something for very quick prototyping so i can see if ideas work14:08
lcuki have about 50 little microapps waiting in line here14:08
lcukwhich need to have their widgets burnt in code14:08
* lcuk has a lot of things to try and do :)14:08
qwerty12Jaffa: Did a dodgy backport of the application manager in trunk and I can only install pidgin-data & pidgin-dbg :P14:09
lcukzap, we need a decent editor before the language is chosen ;)14:10
lcuki want to edit on the go as easily as i edit here14:10
johnxyup, it's emacs :)14:10
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Stskeepsjohnx: saw my post on maemo-developers?14:10
lcukjohnx, would you call the iphone emacs? just because it has lots of little modules for doing different things?14:11
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johnxStskeeps, yeah, a little bit stream of consciousness, but I definitely agree14:11
johnxlcuk, no, but you're starting with an editor, on your way to create a user environment you never need to leave :)14:11
lcuk:) and14:12
lcuki like things to work nicely and smoothly14:12
* GAN800 almost wants to qdb that one.14:12
* lcuk has expectations about applications14:12
johnxno problem of course. It's just that you are starting an OS14:12
Stskeepsjohnx: liqemacs14:12
johnxnot in the classic sense, but in the functional sense of the word14:12
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lcukjohnx, its not starting, ive simply started to move the stuff ive been coding for years on home machine14:13
lcukjott keeps teasing me with "liqos"14:13
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lcuki kinda like the idea tbh14:13
johnxoh, seems totally reasonable to me14:13
GAN800lcuk's gonna be shipping tablets in 5 years14:13
johnxyou need a scripting language though, maybe python?14:14
Stskeepsjohnx: and stream of consciousness is what happens when i write when i'm running a fever :P14:14
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Stskeepsjohnx: lisp.. ;>14:14
lcukGAN800, tablets are just one part of my main scheme14:14
johnxscheme/lisp or python seems reasonable14:14
lcukthe tablet will never be the perfect envionment to manage things fully14:14
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lcukbut its right to take with you - but when i sit down at a big desk it should open up into it14:15
GAN800lcuk's gonna be the next Steve Jobs.14:15
lcukno, im not following anyone :)14:15
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* lcuk is making his own path14:15
johnxlcuk, make it sync to a remote server, not the desktop (or at least sync via IP)14:16
johnxStskeeps, it's good that you wrote that. Because of the amount of effort you've put in when you say something like "this was a pain" it has a lot of weight to it. And, I hope you get better from the fever!14:17
lcukjohnx, this is the crossroads im at - i could simply put the server code directly into liqbase and allow any instance to become a master - but that requires me to have a linuxdesktop, but that needs to be touchscreen - aka eee) or i can use the server code ive already got in windows and in visual basic14:17
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johnxlcuk, is there a reason the server needs to have a UI?14:17
zapliqos won't run without a touchscreen?14:17
lcukyes, but to allow my creative juices to flow i need a touchscreen desktop14:18
lcukno johnx, but i like the idea of it14:18
lcukthe third alternative is to actually get some metal at and host it there headless (well with a web interface)14:18
johnxwhy not be client/server?14:18
lcukbut i dont like the web as much as touching stuff14:18
lcukp2p is actually better14:19
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lcukjust some peers are better than others :)14:19
lcukie my desktop peer has a larger interface14:19
lcukand more storage14:19
lcuki wouldnt expect to keep or display the complete rivers from lots of friends on my tablet14:19
lcukgahhh! i need an eee touchscreen14:20
lcukif anyone knows anyone at asus please ask them to send me a demo model ;)14:20
johnxis a touchsreen eee confirmed?14:20
lcukdesktop model14:21
johnxstrange choice14:21
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lcuknice choice cos it would just replace my monitor here and its touch based and preinstalled with linux and ready to go with no messing14:21
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lcukall the boxes ticked14:21
* lcuk wants to pair the tablet and the desktop together14:22
lcukand have everything work nicely14:22
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johnxa tablet PC running linux and a little easel-type stand for it sounds better to me, but the "linux pre-installed and working" requirement is tough to meet14:22
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lcukthats where the eee comes in14:23
lcukits PERFECT for me, i really hate messing installing shit14:23
lcukit wastes so much time14:23
lcukand takes my mind away from important stuff14:23
johnxah, the divergent paths of programmers and sys admins :)14:24
lcukdrivers and mechanics :)14:24
lcukboth as important as the other14:24
johnxmechanics and engineers14:24
lcukanyway, if anyone happens upon an asus person could you ask.. :D14:26
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qwerty12tf, I just read asus as anus >.<14:26
johnxsure. and if those things show up around me first I'll  figure out a way to get one posted to you :)14:27
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lcuk:) johnx14:27
johnxprobably not though14:27
johnxI mean they probably won't show up here first14:27
lcukim gonna go see if i can setup a basic server anyway14:28
* lcuk tosses a coin, heads its vb, tails linux14:28
lcuk:) liqbase is havin a server component14:29
johnxso they'll just "sync" by throwing some files across?14:29
lcukyer, the user creates a stream of data files (stamped with user and time and type) currently on their machine14:30
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lcukif i want to sync from yours i just grab all your files - they shouldnt conflict14:30
johnxso I can just sync it to my public webspace and pull it down on my desktop?14:30
lcukthats the kind of thinking14:31
johnxhot sauce. That's the GUI-less "server" I wanted14:31
johnxand the desktop and tablet are both clients14:31
lcukor one can be the master14:32
johnxsounds fair. so we are just disagreeing on semantics, not content :)14:32
johnxas long as I can continue to make my desktop less relevant, I'm happy14:33
lcuki want everything to be doable on tablet, but when desktop is available to allow the same data to be opened up and be more configurable in a larger arena14:33
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lcuksome things are simply better to be managed in a large form factor than others - but those same things should still be possible in a more compact space14:34
johnxand I want to be able to pull all of "my stuff" down onto whatever machine I happen to be sitting at14:34
johnxI'm with you 100%14:34
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lcukbbl :) nice chattin guys14:37
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hellwolfI installed mediastreamer, but it doesn't support ogg/flac yet, what should I do15:25
lcukcode it up15:25
lcukshouldnt take you more than a couple of hours if you start now15:26
* lcuk laughs evily15:26
hellwolfwell, actually, I made it work on my N800. But I forgot what to install now..15:27
lcukadd your workings to the wiki next time and everyone can learn15:27
lcukand you will know next time you need it15:27
hellwolfit's too late15:28
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: I'm not having much luck installing anything. I think my sbox is screwed up; given it's been upgraded from the chinook beta.15:29
JaffaHalf the i18n symbols aren't there.15:29
qwerty12_N800Jaffa, ah. I just reinstalled sbox. The quick  compile of h-a-m trunk i did won't show packages in  user/15:32
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lcukvery quick question15:44
lcuki have 2 nokias here15:45
lcukif i connect them via the wifi can i make saving a file into one folder on one nokia automatically save onto the folder on the other15:45
lcukwithout me changing my code15:45
zapif you use gnome-vfs, yes15:46
zapvia bluetooth15:46
lcuki use scp to my windows desktop to do this kind of thing already but its not properly in the filesystem i have to use a custom browser15:47
lcukhiya lopz15:47
zapvfs is a layer above file systems15:48
zapyou use its functions instead of open(), read() and so on15:48
zapthen you may use URLs like http:// or file:// or something else15:48
zapand on maemo vfs supports bluetooth15:48
zapI'm not sure how a bluetooth url looks like15:49
qwerty12_N800Jaffa, Though there is probably numerous bugfixes in h-a-m ; the only new thing I noticed was in the red pill settings dialog - "Use apt-get algorithms"15:49
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lcukthen its not transparent to the app15:50
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qwerty12_N800Bollocks... "/dev/mtdblock4  14.3M  94% /" - Looks like i need to modify localepurge to work on maemo again...15:52
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johnxlcuk, sshfs15:53
lcukno they have gone now, my stomachs feeling better15:53
johnxhmm? anyways, grab sshfs from extras I think, and sshfs lcuk@tablet2:/home/user /home/user/local/mount-dir15:56
lcukim just going to get N2 connected directly into the brain of N115:58
johnxit's based on fuse (filesystem in user space) which lets you do some damn neat things15:58
lcukany sketching or photos taken on 1 tablet will be instantly available on the other15:58
lcuknice johnx15:59
johnxjust copy them into that directory15:59
lcukyeah im going to15:59
johnxanother reason to be on an all-Unix ecosystem :)16:00
lcukheh i just need the desktop :P :D16:00
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johnxmkdir /home/user/foo ; sshfs user@N2:/home/user /home/user/foo16:05
johnx^alomost certainly what you want^16:06
qwerty12_N800Anyone experiencing problems with the transmission in diablo extras-devel btw?16:06
johnxnow off to bed :)16:06
lcukjohnx, :) thank you very much, good night16:08
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RST38hmoo again16:13
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AstralStormahh, I know why Nokia would coop with Kodak16:24
AstralStormthey read engadget16:24
AstralStormOLED touchscreen anyone? :P16:24
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RST38hAStorm: There is already a Nokia phone with oled (N85?)16:28
AstralStormbut Kodak has the better OLED16:29
RST38hBut I would take the Kodak news with a grain of salt: better OLEDs come out every few months or so from different sources16:29
RST38hThe technology isn't quite ready for large screens yet though16:29
AstralStormwhat stops Nokia from grabbing the current best?16:29
RST38hDegrades too quickly16:29
AstralStorm4" is not large screen16:29
AstralStormn900 OLED anyone?16:29
RST38hLarge enough for OLEDs, sorry16:29
AstralStormKodak managed 8"16:29
RST38hIf I were Nokia I would rather collaborate with Philips16:30
AstralStormat 800x480 coincidentally16:30
RST38hSony managed ~14", it just does not live long16:30
AstralStormwith long life :)16:30
RST38hHow long? =)16:30
AstralStormread the article16:30
AstralStormthey say 65k hours16:30
AstralStormbetter than plasma already16:31
RST38h65000 hours?16:31
RST38hIt is not difficult to be better than plasma. 8 hours of howing a static picture trashes plasma16:31
* RST38h looking up LCD lifetimes16:31
AstralStormI suspect they're twice16:32
RST38hThe lifetime of the CCFL (the light behind the panel) is in the range of 25000 to 50000 hours until the CCFL can only attain 1/2 original maximum brightness.16:32
RST38hLifetime of the LCD panel itself is around 300000 hours.16:32
RST38hSo "yes" and "no" :)16:32
AstralStormso it's better and not :)16:32
AstralStormgood enough anyway16:32
RST38hLED-lit LCD should do wonders16:32
AstralStormbut LEDs have life similar to OLED16:32
RST38hActually, Nokia usually uses LED-lit LCDs16:32
AstralStormwell, longer than CCFL16:33
RST38hYou are mistaking LEDs for OLEDs. They are different anymals16:33
RST38hLED will live pretty much forever as long as you do not let it heat up too much16:33
RST38hOLED has organic components and will degrade, especially if contacted with air16:34
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JaffaFirst bit was easy:
lcukouchy jaffa, can you tint them so the main sections look very slightly different17:34
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* Jaffa wants to hide everything but the "standard" sections (pushing everything into 'Other')17:35
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JaffaHowever, I also want to use the same list view, as that should make supporting sub-categories easier.17:35
* Jaffa goes to finish watching _Back to the Future 2_, first though17:35
lcukhave you seen how i am trying to view the folder tree in liqbase?17:35
qwerty12_N800Nice work, Jaffa17:35
* Jaffa realises how much he hates doing stuff like this in C. For example, in a real language I'd use a hashmap of sections to build up the package list rather than an array of structs.17:36
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lcukjaffa - could you make that a tag cloud ;) show the sections size according to how many packages they contain?  crashanddie did something similar in sdl i believe17:38
RST38hJaffa: You can use hashmap in C17:46
RST38hOnce you implement it of course :)17:46
RST38hgentlemen, please, DO NOT show sections with rectangles of different size. It is very cool but absolute bitch to work with, especially when you need something from a small section17:48
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lcukRST38h, i simply mean expanding the ones with more in - and it works really nicely : liqbase has something like it for sketches18:01
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qwerty12~burn maemo.org18:04
* infobot pours gasoline all over, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze18:04
mouser-Yum...toasted Debian.18:06
Jaffalcuk: I'd thought of doing a tagcloud type thing, but a) concluded it could be a bitch with a section which contains a single package; b) I'd rather have it consistent with the sub-categories; c) there's no tagcloud widget that already exists, so I'll have to create one in a Gtk text area - and I'm lazy.18:10
* RST38h politely asks Jaffa not to get fancy and copy iPhone UI18:10
lcukheh jaffa, totally understand - cant wait for vala to be faster on device :)18:11
JaffaRST38h: trust me, with Gtk+; my rusty skills and no good Gtk+ documentation, complex widgets or rich data types, it ain't gonna happen.18:11
Jaffalcuk: :)18:11
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RST38hJaffa: Should I tell you exactly how?18:13
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RST38hThe documentation is somewhat lacking but it is not that bad18:16
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camel_liuhi, everybody18:19
camel_liuWhen I make monkey bubble, it returns 'make[2]: *** No rule to make target `monkey-bubble.schemas', needed by `all-am'.  Stop.'18:20
RST38hJaffa: You want this widget:
camel_liuWhat does it mean?18:21
RST38hit means your makefile is broken18:21
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RST38hSetting rows and columns and spacing is obvious18:22
* Jaffa adds the existing patch to #310318:23
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camel_liutalking with me?18:23
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camel_liuI checkout monkey bubble like this 'svn checkout'18:24
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camel_liujust install librsvg, nothing else18:25
* qwerty12 grabs Jaffa's patch, thanks!18:25
melmothcamel_liu: did you try rebuild all the autotools stuff with ./ ?18:27
camel_liuyes, I run ./autogen.sh18:28
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camel_liumelmoth, see
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camel_liuHave any idea?18:35
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Jaffaqwerty12: what was the bug with your anti-nag patch? I'll at least put the reading of it in so it can be read from ~/.osso/hildon-application-manager18:36
pupnik810hi ssvb18:37
ssvbhi pupnik81018:37
qwerty12Jaffa: Ah, the part is done correctly, I'm having trouble with the if statements in operations.cc18:37
pupnik810what is new with you18:38
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Jaffaqwerty12: to do what? Should just be a case of adding an early exit to if the flag is set, no?18:38
* Jaffa should look at your patch before commenting :)18:39
JaffaFound it: #271018:39
qwerty12Jaffa: That's the old one which gives the user no choice in the matter :)18:40
qwerty12Wait a sec, I'll dig up my & settings.h18:40
JaffaA brute force patch, that ;-)18:40
ssvbpupnik810: not much new regarding coding/optimizing stuff, mostly looking for an apartment to rent at the moment18:40
solmumahahi pupnik81018:41
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camel_liuCould anyone take a look, make error of monkey bubble18:43
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qwerty12Jaffa: & (Sorry, I'm too lazy to diff it). That part is implemented correctly, the value is saved and read for the legal stuff. The problem I had was integrating it with the where the function to call the install stuff actually comes. I came up with this in the end which doesn't work [well]: . If you18:44
qwerty12look at the original, you will see what I was trying to do18:44
* Jaffa grabs18:44
camel_liuIn Linux, configure, compile, make are so complex and difficult to figure out18:44
pupnik810hi solmumaha ... need to get internet (umts) this week18:46
pupnik810then back in biz...18:46
solmumahaback for good?18:46
RST38hcamel: You do not need this stuff18:49
melmothcrap, i destroyed my scracthbox env18:49
qwerty12melmoth: I've done that 5 times :(18:49
camel_liuWhat do you mean that I do not need it?18:50
melmothisn it a good time for a fresh nice reinstall ?18:50
qwerty12Heh, I'm going to do that when I reformat (and resize) my ubuntu install when I install intrepid18:51
qwerty12To me, a ubuntu upgrade is never as complete as a windows upgrade :/18:51
melmothmy scrarchbox was in a debian xen vm.18:52
melmothwell, it s still there.18:52
melmothit s just that all python things reguse to import gconf module anymore.18:52
RST38hand go from there18:52
melmothlet s reinstall a fresh vm. Will not hurt.18:52
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camel_liuRST38h, I need to study how to develop a program like monkey bubble, so I need it.18:53
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JaffaRST38h: ta18:56
camel_liuI want to develop a game program on N800, which is capable of supporting multi player over network.18:57
camel_liuRST38h, do you have any suggestion?18:58
camel_liuI need some prototype18:58
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Jaffaqwerty12: I've attached a newer version of your patch which does the Right Thing[TM] (IMNSHO) in operations.cc19:05
* Jaffa foods.19:05
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qwerty12Jaffa: Ah, I see it on #2710. Thank you!19:06
pupnik810camel_liu, many network games available .. www.pupnik.de19:10
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pupnik810well i gotta run    cu!19:12
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camel_liuI'm not going to program a game on Windows, though I know something about it. My target is N800 and maemo. But I'm new in maemo and linux as well. So I want to begin with a sample and I choosed 'monkey bubble'.19:26
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camel_liumelmoth and pupnik810, could you tell me such a sample that I can follow?19:27
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melmothcamel_liu: i would suggest you read the whole article i pasted. It had been a great help to me.19:28
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RST38hcamel: It may come as a surprise to you but from my point of view Maemo programming is very straightforward while programming anything on Windows is a mess19:35
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RST38h[as in "no main(), no uniform device control, no system-level libc, etc")19:36
ProteousNO HEART!!19:36
camel_liumelmoth, the most difficult things to me are config, compile and make in linux world. Programing is not that difficult, but the things after that is hard.19:36
RST38hI can live with no heart19:36
ProteousNO SPLEEN!!19:36
RST38hBut no hands and no legs are kinda taxing19:37
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RST38hcamel: 1. You do not need config.19:37
ProteousCONFIG > YOU19:37
melmoththe article i mentionned will not teach you anything about makefile, it s not even a C article. Though, it s really interesting if your issue was "multiplayer network game"19:37
RST38hcamel: 2. Make is the same as on Windows, the only reason why you do not know it is because MSVC does it for you19:37
RST38hcamel: 3. Both Linux and Windows compile C/C++ into native code so I do not see what is "difficult" about compilation19:38
RST38hmelmoth: Wrong article then. A moment.19:38
camel_liuYes, in MSVS, we can focus on program itself19:38
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RST38hsame in Unix19:39
camel_liuI have developed many programs in Windows. But It's totally different thing in Linux19:39
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RST38hIn fact, in MSVC I mostly focus on how to avoid crashing it19:39
ProteousI once ate an apple that was totaly different then an orange19:39
Proteousit was scary because there were both fruit19:40
ProteousI wasn't prepared19:40
RST38hProteous: Did it leave a permanent psychological scar?19:40
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* Proteous cries19:40
RST38hDid it make you gay maybe?19:40
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RST38hcamel: A moment. I am looking for a really simple maemo example19:41
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camel_liuIs there any sample little game in maemo that deals with multiplayer over network?19:41
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camel_liuRST38h, ok, thanks19:42
Proteousonly flash based19:42
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RST38hMultiplayer over network is doe via TCP/IP19:43
RST38hYou can learn about TCP/IP from a lot of books19:43
camel_liuI know about TCP/IP.19:44
ProteousTotaly Cool Protocal/Idiot Protocal19:44
RST38hThen use your knowledge19:44
Proteousbut only for good19:45
jaskato see pee i pee?19:45
camel_liuWhat I want is frame of that game in MAEMO.19:45
RST38hcamel: Read this tutorial for general maemo programming example:
RST38hIt will not require you to use configure19:45
camel_liuRead a goog sample in MAEMO is the best way to learn, I think19:46
camel_liuI have the tutorial, reference and manual of Diablo.19:47
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camel_liuI want to read a good sample game of maemo, and follow it to avoid config, compile and make issue.19:48
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camel_liuThough I think I cannot, I still think it is better than begin with blank.19:49
camel_liuHow about the game 'Biloba'?19:50
RST38hIMHO you should go look at sample source code, read documentation, and come here for concrete answer once you get concrete questions19:52
camel_liusouns good.19:52
camel_liuHowever, is 'monkey bubble' in the diablo reference manual?19:53
camel_liubut it cannot work out19:54
camel_liuThe reference use 'monkey bubble' as a sample of porting,.19:54
camel_liuAnd said, "Everything should go fine, and the game should be compiled properly."19:55
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camel_liuIf tutorial, reference and manual cannot do their work, who need them?19:57
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camel_liuwhen I run ./, it said, 'Please add the files codeset.m4 gettext.m4 glibc21.m4 iconv.m4 isc-posix.m4 lcmessage.m4 progtest.m4 from the /usr/share/aclocal directory to your autoconf macro directory or directly to your aclocal.m4 file.' What does it mean?20:02
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RST38hForget Monkey Bubble. If it does not compile, forget it.20:10
RST38hThere is plenty other Maemo games20:10
* Proteous cries for Monkeys20:11
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RST38hHere is a repository with indT games source code:
ssvbcamel_liu: try from
RST38hPick any one you want, look at it, just don't ask questions before you understand what exactly you want to know20:13
Proteoushow are dill pickles20:13
ssvbcamel_liu: and makefiles are really simple, every software developer should have absolutely no problem getting familiar with them20:15
ProteousI got familiar with a make file once, she slapped me20:16
qwerty12Jaffa: ping20:16
Proteousqwerty12: pong20:16
qwerty12Proteous: Hey Jaffa :p20:16
Proteousqwerty12: marco20:17
ProteousI can make the lights on my router and modem blink by typing20:18
Proteousit's mezmorizing20:18
* Proteous falls into a trance20:18
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qwerty12lol, I can type echo i12 > /proc/led on my router and the internet light blinks 20 times20:19
Proteousit's like magic20:19
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Proteousnot yet20:20
qwerty12ello lardman20:20
Proteousit's only 11:20am20:20
qwerty12Proteous: is here :p20:20
lardmanI know, ugt20:20
yacoobqwerty12, 'h-e-l-p-i-m-t-r-a-p-p-e-d-i-n-t-h-e-P-R-O-M-c-h-i-p' :)20:20
qwerty12yacoob: Let's burn you out! :)20:21
Proteoustimezones are just a fiction created by the government to explain away the fact that they put us to sleep and operate on use when we fly in airplanes20:21
Proteousluckly my pants double as a faraday cage so they can't read the tracking device they installed20:22
lardmanhmm, where did they install it!20:22
Proteousdon't ask20:22
lardmanAh, from the timezone you're American20:22
lardmanpants are different over here20:22
Proteousyou and your trousers20:23
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camel_liuRST38h, Sorry to bother you. What I want is a sample including everything I need.  So I can learn how everything implemented in maemo. I want to start with a good sample for my life in maemo. I've browse the garage for several days. How about the game  Biloba ( ?20:24
ProteousI want some coffee, RST38h can you come over and make me some?20:24
ProteousI'll take some sugar and a touch of milk20:24
Proteousoh, you'll have to pick up some milk on the way over, I'm all out20:25
camel_liuI want a sample from expert. It's little, brief and correct with what I want.20:25
qwerty12_N800Proteous, mind going Mexico and sourcing me some ganja while RST38h makes the coffee?20:25
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Proteousjust ask RST38h to get that on the way too20:25
Proteousand make it snappy20:25
Proteousmy coffee beans are from Mexico20:25
sjaganis it the right place to ask maemo 4.1.1 install issue?20:27
Proteousthe real question you should be asking is if this is the right place to get an answer for a memo 4.1.1 install issue20:28
Proteousfinding Maemo20:28
Proteousanother Nokia classic20:29
Proteouswere a small tablet tries to find his way back to his mother20:29
Proteoustouching story really20:29
lardmansjagan: Go for it, don't let the banter deter you20:29
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* Proteous shuts up and goes to make coffee20:29
sjaganthanks. I was trying to install maemo. Running sh maemo-sdk-install_4.1.1.sh20:30
sjaganalways time out at the end20:30
sjaganwith chinook, i never had this problem20:30
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lardmanno idea off the top of my head, what does the script try to download that times out?20:31
sjaganHere is the message20:31
sjaganFailed to fetch  Error reading from server - read (104 Connection reset by peer) [IP: 80]20:31
sjaganit is able to 'Get' 425 files and it always gets reset here20:32
lardmanhmm, interesting20:32
Mouseyso does anyone know if this is usable? i mean, if i go and do this will i be happy or is it really just for proof of concept hackery:20:32
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: pohg20:33
Stskeepssjagan: get the newest .sh20:33
Stskeepssjagan: there was a old one that didn't work with the broken servers20:33
Jaffalardman: started doing some hildon-app-mgr hacking today20:33
lardmanJaffa: yes, I was just catching up on the mailing list20:33
lardmanJaffa: looks good20:33
l7Mousey: that looks neat20:33
Jaffa#2710 and the category one20:34
Mouseyl7 yah, i'm please to be wanting to trying it.. but i fake broken inglish bad20:34
sjaganstskeeps, thanks my .sh is a week old. it may be a good idea. i will try with the new one today20:34
qwerty12_N800Jaffa, you forgot to patch the warning when installing a deb from the file system as opposed to a repo: (tested)20:35
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Jaffaqwerty12_N800: damn, will fix when I get home20:36
qwerty12_N800thanks :)20:37
lardmansjagan: are you running out of disk space or something funny like that?20:39
amenghi, where i can get n810 hardware manual?20:39
RST38hcamel_liu: I am available for contract work.20:40
RST38hOtherwise, I am afraid you will have to do your own searching, reading, and learning20:40
Proteouswhat about my coffee20:40
JaffaInteresting that mvo's already implemented the red-pill non-persistence already in svn (was good to see)20:41
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* RST38h hands Proteous some castor beans20:41
RST38hHere. Coffee.20:41
* lardman goes to find a drink and let all the emails/forum posts sink in20:41
Proteousdon't let them sink into your drink to far20:41
RST38h"Politico is reporting that Sarah Palin has had enough with what her handlers are telling her to do. She blames them for her increasingly negative public image and wants to be herself."20:42
RST38hPlease, PLEASE let her!20:42
RST38hShe can start by thinning DC squirrel populatio20:43
JaffaHmm. I think, thinking about it, the last SSU broke my modest auto-update20:43
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ProteousI try to be extravagant with my auto-updates20:44
lardmanRST38h: she can come over here and kill off a few of the gray interploers too! :)20:44
camel_liuRST38h, What do you mean?  available for contract work? I do not ask you to write one. I just ask if you happen to know some good sample that fits my requirement.20:44
lardmaninterlopers that should be, not interpreters or any other possible type20:45
RST38hlardman: Judging from the article quoted at dailyrotten, you are doing jolly fine job on that without her =)20:45
RST38hcamel_liu> No.20:46
camel_liuGot it.20:46
lardmanwell a few reds have been found to be immune to the gray's virus20:46
RST38hSELECT * FROM World WHERE it is exactly what camel_liu wants20:46
RST38hQuery returned 0 records.20:46
RST38hlardman: Super reds!20:47
lardmanah I see the link:
lardmango you reds!20:47
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lardmanwith inflation the way it is we may be eating more squirrel anyway, grays have more meat on them too20:48
RST38hprobably less healthy, being American food stuff...20:49
derfYou're going to have more problems with deflation in the near term than inflation.20:49
RST38hderf: That we do not know yet20:49
derfI'm pretty sure the central banks can't print enough money to replace all the credit that just disappeared.20:50
AFBN810has mcontacts ever been releashed?20:50
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RST38hAt the end it is still not real money20:50
lardmanderf: million pound notes20:50
RST38hSo printing it will lead to inflation, unless banks take it and stash it somewhere or burn it, turning it back into unreal electronic account balances20:51
derfThese days they don't actually "print" money, they sell bonds.20:51
derfThere aren't enough people to actually buy that many bonds.20:51
derfAnyway... inflation is caused by a wage price spiral... which is pretty hard to sustain when people are losing jobs.20:52
RST38hany excess of money released into general population will cause inflation20:53
RST38heven if this money is given as mortgages20:53
derfSure... but wage price spiral is the mechanism.20:53
derfI don't think you can cause inflation with mortgages so long as housing prices are falling.20:54
RST38hwell, not gonna see wage increases any time soon20:54
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derfRST38h: That is, in fact, my point.20:54
melmothgrumble... i think i have a scratchbox environnemnt ready again..Only 3 hours lost.20:54
RST38hin fact, mine are shrinking, as they are in RUR20:54
RST38hmelmoth: [whispering] SB2.20:55
StskeepsSB2 seems smart but also caused me to want to rip my eyes out after trying to set it up with a standard debian..20:55
derfIt's funny, I swear last week everyone was talking about how financially sound Russia was.20:56
derfThis week... not so much.20:56
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melmothi never try it. I just launch what the maemo site tells me to do without trying to use my brain.20:56
melmothup to now.. it worked20:56
* Stskeeps would really use distcc + a tablet if he had to compile maemo stuff now20:57
camel_liumelmoth, Congratulation! Do you install maemo SDK?20:57
Stskeepsreverse of scratchbox, but it is more sane20:57
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camel_liuIt cost me three days.20:58
melmothI had one camel_liu , but to tell the truth, i just broke it trying to see if i was able to compile your bublle thingy20:58
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melmothi never though installing libglade could result in having python2.5 not being able to use gconf anymore :)20:58
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Stskeepsmelmoth: welcome to maemo sdk21:00
camel_liuIs 'monkey' that strong to break your scratchbox? How lucky I am!21:01
RST38hderf: It is still financially sound21:02
melmothi think i may have do some apt-get update while having the maemo-extra-devel repository enable or soemthing21:03
RST38hderf: But things are gonna get funny when oil prices go below $6021:03
lardmanderf: utility prices are a non-wage price spiral (via raw material costs) of increasing inflation of course21:03
lardmanthough they've dropped off a cliff now with the recession, which is good21:03
RST38hEspecially given the amount of state-fed bureacracy that rose up in the last 5 years21:04
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derflardman: That's a supply and demand thing, which is healthy.21:04
derfInflation is a question of money supply.21:04
lardmancost of living21:04
RST38hlardman: It also means smartphones will never take root in the US now21:04
camel_liuI have to go to sleep. It's 3:00 am in my time zone. see u.21:05
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derfRST38h: And the specific story I was referring to was:
lardmannot sure the oil/gas thing is actually supply and demand though, it's artificial and heavily influenced by futures21:05
RST38hlardman: Cheap oil -> more driving -> no public transport -> no time to play with gadgets21:05
lardmanRST38h: other way round here, I save time driving21:06
derflardman: It doesn't matter if your cost of living goes up if you can't demand more money from your employer.21:06
RST38hlardman: And if people have to sell their cars, they won't have money for gadget either ;)21:06
derfIt simply means you have to spend less somewhere else.21:06
derfThat's not inflationary.21:06
lardmanderf: of course, but as "inflation" includes cost of living items such as utility prices, it's an inflationary force21:06
RST38hderf: I think the article is a bit too alarmist at this stage21:06
RST38hderf: But let us see what happens in a week or two21:07
derfRST38h: Quite possibly, but I thought the change in sentiment from "Russia is the only one who can bail out Iceland" was dramatic.21:07
RST38hderf: Never heard a sentiment like that21:07
RST38hAlthough it probably CAN bail out Iceland, given its reserves21:08
lardmaninteresting to see how the Russian billionaires were so heavily leveraged21:08
derfWell, Iceland asked Russia for help.21:08
RST38h(unless those reserves are already stolen by "civil servants" by investing them into garbage)21:08
derfAnd over here people were like yeah, because Russia didn't just spend $850bln on a bank bailout.21:08
RST38hderf: Iceland only asked for a few billion21:09
lardmanRST38h: I think the point was that the rouble could go one the slide quite easily, which would mean it didn't have the money to do any bailing21:09
RST38hderf: And there is another side to this story people may not know21:09
derfRST38h: I know. We could have done it too, I'm sure. What's a few more billion here or there?21:09
derfBut the thing I was pointing out was the sentiment.21:09
RST38hderf: Iceland is one of the biggest offshores. Lots of Russian millionares kept money there21:10
derfRST38h: Haha, that explains a lot.21:10
RST38hderf: Exactly.21:10
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RST38hlardman: Not really21:10
* lcuk waves21:11
lardmanhi lcuk21:11
RST38hlardman: If needed, Russian central bank could draw an image of testicles with RUR exchange rate on the charts21:11
* lcuk wonders what he came back to21:12
RST38hlardman: The problem is that it would be futile in the long run anyway, so the central bank isn't doing it21:12
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derfYeah, it worked so well for them in the early 90's.21:12
lardmanRST38h: yes but that would devalue the currency, which would cause people to move their money out of the rouble, etc21:12
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RST38hlardman: And as it is not doing it, and money leaving the country, and easy US-sourced credit dries up, there is huge need for foreign currency (remember, this place imports most of the stuff)21:13
e|3k7can I update to the latest firmware on os x?21:13
RST38hlardman: End result: RUR falls in relation to USD, but EUR appears to fall in relation to RUR21:13
Stskeepse|3k7: if you have a PPC mac21:13
e|3k7intel :/21:14
qwerty12_N800e|3k7, use a  linux live cd :)21:14
RST38hlardman: they are not just printing it, they are selling and buying it21:14
Stskeepse|3k7: might be a possibility, or what qwerty12_N800 said21:14
RST38hlardman: so it does not always devalue currency21:14
e|3k7i have dual boot but my internets are b0rke in windows21:14
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e|3k7is there a direct link to the installer i can dld and then boot in windows and install?21:15
lardmanRST38h: yes, that's a possibility21:15
lardmanRST38h: my crystal ball is broken this week ;)21:15
derfReally, I wouldn't want to play currency markets in this environment.21:15
derfStuff is getting _really_ hard to predict.21:15
derfAbout the only thing I'm still confident in is that the yen carry trade will start to unwind.21:16
RST38hBut if I predict DOOM AND THE END OF CIVILIZATION it probably isn't gonna be too far off target21:16
qwerty12_N800e|3k7, sure, go on tablets-dev (google it) and download the latest image for your device and choose the file in the windows flasher21:16
derfBut fortunately, I would never invest in currency anyway.21:17
e|3k7just found it. i'm sure i could have found it on my own but i like dispelling doubts with you guys21:17
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RST38h(why not just use "comlog"?)21:21
aquatixcomlog sounds fine to me21:21
aquatixmy phone is called comm already btw :)21:22
qwerty12_N800With latest ssu, battery info in ftd works:
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e|3k7which one is the swap key21:25
e|3k7the little house?21:25
aquatixRST38h: or comlink?21:27
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e|3k7was it penguinbait that made the easy flash > sd card cloner?21:35
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: is that on maemo?21:38
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, yes21:38
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RST38haquatix: comlink is the link, not a device21:47
RST38h"A draft US Army intelligence report has identified the popular micro-blogging service Twitter as a potential terrorist tool. A chapter titled 'Potential for Terrorist Use of Twitter' notes that Twitter members reported the July Los Angeles earthquake faster than news outlets and activists at the Republican National Convention in Minneapolis used it to provide information on police movements."21:49
aquatixRST38h: myeah, that's a good point indeed (about the link)21:51
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Jaffaqwerty12_N800: I should've fixed the install-from-file missage.21:56
* Jaffa goes to have a beer, do some ironing (Mrs Jaffa is away) and watch a film.21:57
qwerty12_N800Jaffa, Cool, thanks.21:57
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smokieHi, i installed esbox in eclipse ganymede but it doesn't work. When i select maemo project, i'll get "wizzard could not be started .... Any ideas ?22:00
e|3k7is there something different about microB, seems like it's not responidg very well to clicks?22:01
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e|3k7oh nm22:02
e|3k7i had to recalibrate22:02
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Proteousscreen calibration to the rescue!!22:21
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e|3k7flashed and cloned22:24
e|3k7feel like a newborn baby22:24
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zapRST38h: would be pretty cool if your sliderule would support at least hex numbers :)23:02
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BugBluesscanf does some things different on maemo than on 'normal' linux23:52
BugBluesscanf("%s %s %s %s %s" gives me 4 filles strings instead of 523:53
Proteousdon't give mustard to poines23:59
zapBugBlue: maemo uses same glibc like normal linux23:59

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