IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2008-10-25

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TokyoDanDoes anybody know what shells are used in the normal and root accounts of N810 running Diablo and where are the environment variables such as $PATH set?00:45
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woglindeist your friend00:50
woglindefor question200:50
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ShadowJK_where not what00:51
ShadowJK_grep PATH in all of /etc might be more helpful for figuring out #200:51
qwerty12_N800it also depends on the method you are using to get root wrt environment variables00:51
woglindeoh sorry00:51
woglindemisunderstood the question00:52
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TokyoDanThanks. I'm just trying to run an executable python script in my local directory /home/user/MyDocs/
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TokyoDanBut I get command not found. I added /home/user/MyDocs to /etc/profile $PATH but that had no effect.00:57
mgedmindid you reboot?00:57
mgedmincould be some other script overrides the PATH setting later00:58
mgedminI set my $PATH in ~/.ashrc00:58
mgedminor was that ~/.profile?00:58
mgedminone of those00:58
TokyoDanno, just restarted the terminal window and did a echo $PATH to see if the directory was added and it was.00:58
TokyoDanit was in /etc/profile00:59
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bef0rdHi, am I the only one that is annoyed to have to accept twice a file when receiving it through bluetooth?01:11
mgedmindidn't notice that01:15
mgedminbut I'm annoyed that I have to uncheck the 'open file' checkbox when accepting a file over bluetooth01:15
mgedminand it's tiny and not thumb-friendly01:15
bef0rdyeah, that too01:16
bef0rdit should probably store/load the latest selected option01:16
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l7ah, sftp is cool02:36
l7being able to sftp in and drop stuff off on my n800 remotely :)02:36
l7let's see an ipod do that!02:37
Mouseyl7 it can02:37
Mouseynot that i'd want to02:37
l7with jailbreak?02:38
Mouseywho doesn't jailbreak a iphone/ipod touch?02:38
Mouseyalso, you can't put dual 32gb SDHC cards in a ipod02:38
Mouseyi want an n800 now02:38
Mouseyfor external storage for my n810 ^_^02:39
Mouseyat least there are 16gb microSD cards now02:39
l7can you still buy an iphone w/o activating it these days?02:39
l716gb microsds seem rather pricey02:39
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BilawHello, all!02:40
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hellwolfIn maemo, I want to use some python script, it told me "ImportError: No module named py_compile"02:43
hellwolfWhat am I missing02:43
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hellwolfOk, I install python-dev, it's ok now02:51
BilawSilly question of the day: has anyone tried to install another (distribution) on their tablet, say Ångström, or Ubuntu MID, or anything else?02:55
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l7hrm, can't say i have03:01
l7ah editing /etc/systemui/systemui.xml to enable reboot is a great tool03:01
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l7uh oh, what's this device mode prompt?03:05
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johnxBilaw, of course. There is some preliminery support in Angstrom. Also check out Deblet and (ubuntu)03:15
lcukwould "instant LOL cat creator" be a killer app?03:16
johnxdoes it come with a cat?03:17
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lcukim just thinking of random little apps for the camera :)03:17
Bilawcheers, johnx!03:17
l7man, mplayer's ability to play flvs from the net never ceases to impress me03:18
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mgedminlcuk: good idea!03:33
mgedminwould work better on a n800 with its swivel camera03:34
mgedminor even better on a n900 with a non-crappy camera03:34
mgedmin(1) snap a picture (2) type a caption (3) upload to flickr03:34
Xamuskcan someone help me try to make my n800 grab data from a serial gps? (garmin etrex legend)03:34
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mgedminme needs to get a cat03:34
lcukmgedmin, :) keep the info as individual pieces and more can be done with it as discovered03:35
XamuskI installed the usbserial and pl2303 drivers and the usb-serial cable seems to be working03:35
Xamuskbut maemo-mapper isn't getting anywhere03:35
mgedmincould it be a protocol issue?03:36
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mgedminif you 'cat /dev/ttyUSB42' in an xterm, do you see data from the GPS?03:36
mgedmindoes the data look like text, or binary?03:36
Xamuskno data03:36
Xamuskmaybe my GPS isn't working properly?03:37
mgedminnever had a serial gps03:37
mgedminmaybe you need to send some command to it to wake it up03:37
mgedminotoh the serial cable has a couple of lines for detecting that the other end is listening03:38
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XamuskI don't know if this is valid considering I'm using usb-serial03:40
Xamuskbut anyway it seems my gps is in a semi-locked state and I can't get it out of it03:41
Xamuskit's not responding to button presses :( only to turn it on and then it gets to satellite screen... it shows satellites (not as much as I'd like) but won't respond to buttons03:42
Xamuskmaybe I didn't use it for too long :(03:43
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GeneralAntillesPlease, please, somebody kick this guy's ass:
johnxwhat lib is he talking about?05:04
johnxcan someone just fix it and push it?05:05
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, probably.05:07
GeneralAntillesHe's kind of an idiot, though.05:07
johnxdon't let him get to you05:08
GeneralAntillesIt's irritating when he's spreading misinformation to newbies.05:08
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l7 speaks of his personality somewhat05:10
l7who formats their entire site in <h2>?05:10
GeneralAntillesA person who files bugs like this:
l7to his credit, he didn't use all caps for everything05:12
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l7hmm, nokia netbooks?05:15
GeneralAntillesThe whole point of the tablets is that they're pocketable devices that can do a whole lot more than some smartphone.05:16
l7yeah, i don't see the point of turning it into a netbook05:16
l7that seems to defeat the purpose of the maemo platform, touch screen technology, etc.05:17
ShadowJK_I hope maemo is nokia's secret project to eventually throw out s6005:17
l7why wouldn't people just by an eee pc instead?05:18
johnxmaemo on a non-touchscreen hi-res device would be kind of grim05:18
l7why would you want to compete in the netbook market anyway with so much competition and such thin margins?05:19
johnxan ARM netbook might give you more margin to play with05:19
l7battery life?05:19
l7still it seems like the netbook form factor has plenty of OSes05:20
johnxwaaaay too many linux distros already, yes05:20
l7ubuntu's netbook remix looks pretty cool05:20
ShadowJK_nobody really wants battery life anyway05:20
johnxnobody *buys* based on battery life05:21
johnxlater on they find out they need it though :)05:21
l7eh, decent battery life with good portability would be good05:21
ShadowJK_I mean, when centrino came everybody was hyped about battery life, but then they bought the ones with crippled batteries anyway05:21
johnxwell, we buy based on battery life, but we don't count05:21
l7the netbooks are all about portability for most people05:21
ShadowJK_And now with atom everybody is hyped about battery life, but still most of them sold are the ones with yet weaker batteries, lasting the "standard" 2.5 hours...05:21
l7i guess it depends on your usage patterns05:22
* mgedmin thinks compiz is cooler than ubuntu's netbook remix 05:22
l7if you take it home and charge it every night it should be fine05:22
l7why do you guys want so much battery life anyway?05:22
ShadowJK_Ideally from a cellphone I'd want it to last 8-12 hours on a charge. Mine doesn't ;p05:22
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ShadowJK_I'd want something similar from a tablet and a laptop probably05:23
ShadowJK_I think N810 gets close...05:24
ShadowJK_in my pseudobenchmark of leaving things streaming 192kbit/s shoutcast05:24
l7how long does it last on that stream?05:27
ShadowJK_dunno, I fell asleep05:30
ShadowJK_somewhere between 4 and 6 hours I think05:30
ShadowJK_my phone does 2-3 hours05:30
l7that's pretty good05:31
l7the battery life of these tablets seems longer than just about any other comparable device05:31
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l7hmm, i wonder if i should get an n81005:34
l7i really want that keyboard :)05:34
XamuskI wish my N800 had more battery life... it suck a LOT compared to Palms or iPaqs05:35
Xamuskthough I understand the limitations of those05:35
ds3I can run my Treo650 flat and still have tons of battery life on the N80005:36
l7how's the n800's battery life compare to the n810?05:36
GeneralAntillesExactly the same.05:36
l7hmm interesting05:36
l7i guess the addition of GPS circuitry doesn't draw much05:37
GeneralAntillesOnly if it's on.05:37
XamuskI have a lended iPaq that keeps working for weeks after I charged it in sleep mode, even though the battery is probably rubbish (for an old model that was disabled for too long)05:38
l7is there a program that will tell you how healthy your battery is?05:38
Xamuskby the way, I'm trying to make a serial gps work with my N800, but I'm not getting it right05:38
GeneralAntillesSadly, no, l7.05:39
l7ah well05:39
l7it always charges up to 10 hours idle time05:39
l7but it doesn't seem like the same 10 hours it used to last05:39
GeneralAntillesAll the data points are there05:39
GeneralAntillessomebody just has to figure out what they all mean and do the necessary calculations.05:40
l7is there a command line tool that will show them?05:43
ShadowJK_where's the data?05:44
ShadowJK_how do you get it out05:46
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Xamusk./gpsbabel -i garmin,get_posn -f /dev/ttyUSB0 -o kml -F garmin-data.kml06:06
l7weird, i found mplayer actually using more CPU to playback mp4 than osso-media06:07
Xamuskl7, maybe osso-media uses those "DSP instructions"06:08
XamuskI can't connect to that frigging GPS!06:09
Xamuskwhat can I do with maemo-mapper to connect it?06:09
johnxso gpsbabel works on it?06:09
Xamuskjohnx, yes06:09
Xamuskwith the command above06:09
johnxhmm, maybe get gpsd to talk to it then have maemo mapper connect to gpsd?06:10
XamuskI don't know if mapper uses something from gpsbabel or if it assumes the gps talks NMEA or something like that06:10
Xamuskjohnx, I already tried it06:10
Xamuskjohnx, I run gpsd in nondaemon mode, but it simply says nothing, and the mapper still doesn't find it06:11
Xamuskit keeps searching06:11
johnxI really don't know06:11
GeneralAntillesYou need to initialize gpsd first.06:13
GeneralAntillesWhich is why Maemo Mapper uses Bluetooth with no MAC.06:13
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XamuskGeneralAntilles, I try to run it manually, but I get nowhere: gpsd -n -N -F /tmp/.gpsd_ctrl_sock /dev/ttyUSB006:14
Xamuskrunning as root06:14
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XamuskGeneralAntilles, I don't see how else I could "initialize" it06:15
GeneralAntillesmaemobluetooth has to start it.06:16
GeneralAntillesI believe, anyway.06:16
Xamuskmy gps is not bluetooth06:16
Xamuskit's serial through a usb-serial cable06:17
Xamuskit's a configuration similar to this one:
Xamuskbut I want it to work with mapper06:20
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fiekiamaemo mapper can do routs?06:25
johnxas long as you have an inet connection06:25
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l7or openstreet data right?06:31
johnxI don't think maemo mapper can route from osm maps since it uses the bitmap osm maps06:31
johnx(someone correct me if things have changed)06:31
l7can any programs for the maemo handle routing offline?06:32
johnxthe included "Map" program can (Wayfinfer Maps or somesuch)06:33
l7oh that thing06:33
l7i wonder if they have improved it since last year, i never touch it06:33
johnxyeah, I think it got updated since then06:33
johnxalso, I think navit can use osm for routing06:34
l7i don't get it, is maemo giving us that commerical app for free?06:34
GAN800The app, not the routing.06:34
l7routing requires a subscription then?06:35
johnxif you're in the US, an app that can use TIGER maps should be able to do some limited routing IIUC06:36
Xamuskcan't mapper use google maps for routing?06:37
johnxonly with an inet connection06:37
AstralStormif OSM vector data is available directly...06:37
AstralStormwe could somewhat rewrite mapper with cairo to draw the vector part06:37
l7which app do you use to connec to TIGER maps?06:37
AstralStorm(or some better engine like AGG)06:37
Xamuskwell, doesn't Nokia maps for symbian phones route offline?06:38
AstralStormXamusk: they have to get maps in vector form06:38
johnxXamusk, yes, check your scrollback :P06:38
AstralStormthen, standard routing algorithms work06:38
GAN800AstralStorm, I'd like to see vector support on Maemo Mapper.06:38
AstralStormwell, as I said, just vectorize the bitmap piecewise for extra bonus06:39
AstralStormGoogle could also provide vectorized maps, but then they wouldn't get all that query analysis bonus06:39
XamuskI thought google maps did routing offline06:40
Xamuskmaybe with javascript06:40
AstralStormno, they do routing online06:40
Xamuskbecause I don't see much transfers when I change my route06:40
AstralStormyou send them point A, B, C... Z06:40
GAN800Maemo Mapper needs an overhaul to handle different map formats more gracefully06:40
AstralStormand they do routing online06:40
AstralStormnot an easy job06:40
AstralStormand it needs better db format06:41
GAN800The talk on the lists was to rasterize vector maps on the fly to feed to Maemo Mapper. :/06:41
AstralStormgdbm is notoriously heavy06:41
AstralStormGAN800: WRONG!06:41
AstralStormthis is the wrong way to do it06:41
AstralStormit's easier to vectorize raster maps usually06:41
AstralStormand then, you can analyze them better06:41
GAN800Maybe we can talk Nokia into doing some of the grunt work for the Fremantle Stars06:41
GAN800AstralStorm, thus, the :/06:42
AstralStormit is logical *if* they add route planning plugins06:42
AstralStormthen a plugin could be used to rasterize a vector map06:42
ShadowJK_Nokia maps for symbian atleast has the decency to try route offline first, and then asks you for permission to go ask the server :-)06:42
AstralStormand provide routing data06:42
AstralStormShadowJK_: there's no offline routing in mapper. At all.06:43
AstralStormso the point is moot06:43
ShadowJK_But Xamusk asked about Nokia Maps06:43
AstralStormbut then, you might flag some plugins as "online"06:43
AstralStormthere exists such an app for Maemo? I don't think so06:44
ShadowJK_no, does not06:44
ShadowJK_it's for S6006:44
ShadowJK_I wouldn't mind wayfinder connecting more frequently to internet to download all the speed cameras nearby :-)06:44
AstralStormso, the work would be to make Mapper into just an UI06:44
AstralStormfor the Map and Routing plugins06:45
XamuskI wouldn't like that06:45
Xamuskdata plans around here are pretty expensive06:45
AstralStormhehe, so they're here06:45
AstralStormI'll be getting one flatrate anyway06:45
AstralStorm(110 PLN for 6 GB + wifi APs of that operator)06:46
AstralStormpity they don't do GB scaling06:46
AstralStormabout 30 Euro06:47
AstralStormmaybe 2506:47
AstralStorm29 today06:47
XamuskAstralStorm, here it's 1GB plan (5GB download limit) for what would be equivalent to 129 PLN06:48
Xamusk(PLN estimates by google)06:48
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AstralStormbut then, that was the best flatrate of the three06:49
AstralStormand there's the problem of not high salaries :)06:50
AstralStormcan't wait till voice and data will get unified06:52
Xamuskhere the minimum wage by law (and thus what most of the population receives) is the equivalent of 573 PLN06:52
Xamuskso a data plan like that is pretty prohibitive06:52
AstralStormpoorer country...06:53
* ShadowJK_ has 2mbit unlimited for 10€ per month :-)06:53
AstralStormhere the median is close to 1800 PLN06:54
AstralStormShadowJK_: you lucky guy06:54
AstralStormI want that06:54
ShadowJK_the operators had price war06:54
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AstralStormdoesn't such a plan make phone calls mostly obsolete?06:54
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AstralStormlike, allowing to buy a really cheap VoIP06:55
ShadowJK_yep, same operator coincidentally offers VoIP service too, and provides instructions for how to make it work on the Nokia cellphones' built-in VoIP feature06:55
AstralStormreally, phone numbers should go away, instead we should get IPv6 linked to DNS06:55
ShadowJK_they used to have UMA but not anymore :/06:55
AstralStormI mean, like, you could get addresses like <oldnumber>.call.yourisp.whatever06:56
AstralStormwith autocompletion, could be viable06:56
AstralStormand then, normal names too :>06:56
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AstralStormIP domination is the final phase of 3GPP project06:57
ShadowJK_I moved my parents' landline to VoIP, with a standalone VoIP phone. The old number still works for people calling with regular phones, but you can also put in and it works06:57
l7man, the LCARS theme is great06:57
AstralStormyes, something like that06:57
AstralStormbut no need for @06:57
AstralStormbecause each device (3GPP LTE) is required to have an IP06:57
ShadowJK_ Essentially this means your phone can roam between WLAN and 3G/GSM :)06:57
l7i'm glad it's bugs are fixed06:57
AstralStormthen, either SIP will have to be firewalled off... or cell operators will have to compete06:59
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AstralStormthe first is automatic if NAT is required (IPv4 doesn't have enough space for all those cell phones)07:00
ShadowJK_My operator is giving public IPs still. It's kinda funny, I have 3 public IPs right now07:00
AstralStormmine too07:00
ShadowJK_smtp might be firewalled but everything else is open07:00
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AstralStormI want my IPv607:00
AstralStormthey could send one too07:01
AstralStormget an allocation, their system does support IPv6 (I have inside sources)07:01
ShadowJK_Nokia wants IPv6 :-)07:01
ShadowJK_It saves battery power07:01
AstralStormevery mobile device07:01
AstralStormand if every device is to be seen on the network... then IPv6 is a must07:02
AstralStormotherwise we'll drown in NATs07:02
Xamusktoo bad nobody is really pushing for IPv6 hard enough07:04
AstralStormcell ops will07:04
oilinkii suppose ipv6 will come only if the big network operators put different prices for ipv4 and ipv6.07:04
AstralStormonce 3GPP is finished07:04
Xamuskand even then, it would probably get us into some sort of IP monopoly anyway07:04
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AstralStormIP monopoly? there is one already07:05
orificeis there a way I can retrieve wep keys off an n810 ?07:05
AstralStormcalled IETF ;P07:05
AstralStormorifice: monitor mode is supposed to somewhat work07:05
oilinkifor example ipv6 traffic would be 20% cheaper. that might let the isps to think it further07:05
orificenot hacking wep keys or anything.  Just the saved ones07:05
orificeWhen I upgraded to Diablo I lost all my saved wep keys07:05
AstralStormah, that... they're in gconf07:05
orificeahh ok07:06
AstralStormipv6 "traffic" cannot be made "cheaper" globally07:07
AstralStormit actually uses a tiny bit more bandwidth07:07
Xamuskgotta go07:08
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AstralStormso, the only driver would be reducing infrastructure07:08
AstralStormlike number of routers07:08
AstralStormand simplifying topology, lowering latency07:08
oilinkisenores does this make any sense? i want to charge nokia phone, n810 and gps-module in car. i'm planing to put an 12v->5v (2A) transformer which will feed usb-hub (5v/2A) and then charge the devices from there?07:09
AstralStormhaving to pass 10 NATs isn't too fast07:09
AstralStormn810 can't be charged over USB, unless you grab that USB->Nokia plug charger07:09
disco_stuAstralStorm: nat does not overhead in performance07:10
oilinkiAstralStorm: the idea is to push isps to use ipv6. therefore make ipv6 cheaper eg transfer the money from ipv4 to ipv607:10
AstralStormdisco_stu: wrong07:10
AstralStormit adds latency07:10
AstralStormsome ms07:10
disco_stuAstralStorm: i m not wrong man07:10
AstralStormespecially if busy07:10
AstralStormusually you pass about 3 nats07:10
AstralStormwhich isn't any appreciable amount07:10
oilinkifor the charger i tought that i can use the usb->nokia plug converter directly like this
AstralStormif 3GPP LTE is to run, you'll pass many more07:11
AstralStormoilinki: yes, but n810 can drain up to 850 mA07:11
AstralStormso in some very rare situations, the charger won't charge ;P07:11
AstralStormdisco_stu: I'm not talking like NAT for 3 machines07:12
oilinkiAstralStorm: ok. but if it's 2A, then there should be some power left for phone and gps07:12
AstralStormbut one with 100s of clients07:12
disco_stuwho said 3 machines07:12
AstralStormoilinki: uhm...07:12
disco_stuthe hell..07:12
AstralStormUSB limits current to 0.5A07:12
disco_stunat 100 times07:13
disco_stuis the same07:13
AstralStormno, it's not07:13
AstralStormit has to inspect every packet, change the IP address in it07:13
AstralStormthat is time07:13
oilinkicurrently i use 12v-> 220v-> 5v  in the car, which doesn't make any sense ;)07:13
AstralStormand store info about state07:13
oilinkiah. i did not know about the 0.5A limit.07:13
disco_stuthat is done at speedlight07:13
disco_stulightspeed or whatever07:13
AstralStormyes yes, check it yourself07:13
AstralStormsend it some bilion of packets07:14
AstralStormsee what's the average latency on output07:14
AstralStormbtw, LTE is supposed to do 200 Mb upload07:14
AstralStormand 300 Mb download07:14
AstralStormso you need a nat of 1GbE class07:15
GeneralAntillesThe Nokia car charger is ~390mA07:15
GeneralAntillesSo 500mA shouldn't be a huge issue.07:15
AstralStormfor just one happy hacker07:15
AstralStormGeneralAntilles: and it doesn't manage to charge the battery07:15
AstralStormI checked07:15
AstralStormyou need at least 450 mA to charge the battery on light use07:15
GeneralAntillesIt does here.07:16
AstralStormif you disable wifi, then yes07:16
GeneralAntillesNot sure who'd be using wifi in a car07:16
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AstralStormyou have a point :>07:16
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AstralStormbluetooth eats less power07:16
oilinkii use sometimes with joikuspot.. but it will drain the e61i battery very fast07:17
AstralStormdisco_stu: what's more, with LTE you'll have one huge NAT, or at least a tree of few such07:18
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oilinkitherefore nowdays it's bt-connection07:18
AstralStormwe need 3G LTE. Really :>07:18
AstralStormuhm, that is, 4G07:19
AstralStormthis is almost as efficient as bluetooth, while having wide range07:19
oilinkiI would be happy for a good edge connection in this country :)07:23
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AstralStormhehe, here, edge is widely available almost everywhere07:27
AstralStormabout 99,1% of country07:28
AstralStorm99,52% population07:28
oilinkiI spend tihs week in Phuket where I'm  going to move soon.  there the best connection I got was gprs with 10kBps download speed. lot's of places without any connectivity.07:29
oilinkiwell need to try with another operator if the connectivity would be better.07:29
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zackeroohow do you extract a .tar.gz ?08:10
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oilinkizackeroo: gunzip a.tar.gz  and then tar xvf a.tar ?08:13
bef0rdtar -xvzf file.tar.gz08:14
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zackeroono frontend?08:15
zackerooyou have to use the terminal for extracting a file?08:15
bef0rdI'd use the terminal anyway08:16
zackeroodoes anyone know if Roadmap is good for anywhere else in the world but the US and Canada?08:16
bef0rdthere is a front end , its called xarchiver I believe08:17
zackerooyeah .. tried that and its not working ...08:17
bef0rdthat's why I prefer the terminal.08:18
zackeroodoes anyone here use Roadmap?08:18
oilinkizackeroo: what is the roadmap for?08:19
oilinkiand how does it differ of the maemo mapper?08:19
zackerooseems like its made for GPS .... and I am trying to find one that does Voice08:20
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oilinkizackeroo: have you checked maemo mapper yet?08:21
zackeroono voice08:21
zackerooand I have flite installed08:21
zackerooand enabled08:21
zackerooand, yes, it is working in the terminal08:21
oilinkihmm. i had a voice before with maemomapper and flite. now i have not cheked as the voice was too quiet for car usage08:22
zackeroowere you using Diablo?08:23
oilinkican not remember when i used with flite. could be before diablo.08:23
oilinkii really like the maemo mapper, but it has it faults as well. using pois is not very convinient08:24
zackerooits really something ... because I upgrade to gain features, but I also loose features in the process08:24
zackerooI really like mapper ... but without voice it is of no use to me08:28
zackerooI cannot be bothered to have to read tiny text on a screen while driving ...08:28
zackerooits also dangerous08:28
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ShadowJK_where can I get this lcars theme?08:37
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Jaffamorning, all11:14
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* camel_liu look around11:38
* Jaffa sticks a more concrete version of his package categorisation thoughts from yesterday on
* qwerty12 would like a user/internet but user/network sounds good11:42
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Jaffaqwerty12: Samba clients wouldn't count as 'Internet' ;-)11:45
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qwerty12Jaffa: I'm not thinking about Samba clients. I wanted to put transmission in user/internet but was forced to put it in user/other because the "allowed" categories available at the moment suck so I was forced to put it in user/other11:46
qwerty12-so I was forced to put it in user/other11:46
qwerty12(Didn't realise I was repeating myself >.<)11:46
Jaffaqwerty12: indeed, but my point was there are networky things which don't fit anywhere else, but aren't 'Internet' related. The i18n could always be 'Internet & networking'11:47
qwerty12Ah, yes, I get you now. Yeah, I agree, user/networking is a better choice when looking at it.11:48
GeneralAntillesI wonder what Nokia's plans are for Fremantle's application menu.11:49
GeneralAntillesIt'd be nice to have enough top level folders to have them match the categories reasonably well.11:49
camel_liuI'm using maemo 4.1.1, and testing maemo SDK installation according to it reference manual11:50
camel_liuWhen run 'Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x16 -dpi 96 -ac -extension Composite', I got below ouput:11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc11:50
camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc11:50
camel_liuHow to resolve it?11:50
qwerty12Does it matter? It still works fine.11:51
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camel_liuYes, it still works, but it bothers me.11:53
camel_liuI want everything be perfect.11:53
camel_liuAnd when I Ctrl+C it, it returns below:11:54
camel_liuFreeFontPath: FPE "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc" refcount is 2, should be 1; fixing.11:54
camel_liuWhat about this?11:54
JaffaGeneralAntilles: agreed11:54
camel_liuI want to why these messages occur and how to resolve them. Anybody knows?11:56
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usicowI've got a strange problem.. when I try to write files on /media/mmc1 I get the error that the file system is in read-only mode.. how can I verify this and fix it?11:57
qwerty12Running "mount" would tell you if it's in RO (afaik) and dmesg says if the device has been mounted ro. But you can run fsck as root to fix it.11:59
* GeneralAntilles files a bug.11:59
usicowok.. mount looks like it certainly is in RO mode.12:00
usicow/dev/mmcblk1p1 on /media/mmc1 type vfat (ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)12:00
* qwerty12 vows never to "compile" po4a in scratchbox again. Fucking dependencies...12:01
usicowusing dmesg it says '[  654.843750] FAT: Filesystem panic (dev mmcblk0p1)'12:02
camel_liuto qwerty12: Do you have any idea about the problem of Xephyr?12:02
qwerty12camel_liu: Like I said when you PM'ed me:12:03
qwerty12qwerty12> Nope12:03
qwerty12<qwerty12> The messages have never bothered me so I've never bothered looking12:03
qwerty12usicow: become root with whatever method, run umount /media/mmc1 ; fsck.vfat -a /dev/mmcblk0p1 ; fsck.vfat -r /dev/mmcblk0p112:04
usicowqwerty12: ok, I'll do that.. but what does that do? :) I'm just curious why this has happened.12:05
qwerty12usicow: Unmounts the memory card so fsck can do its stuff and repair it :). First invocation of fsck repairs it automatically and then the second invocation of fsck asks you what option to do to repair because I noticed in automatic mode, it skips things it wants an answer for12:06
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qwerty12The knob hasn't heard of a pastebin...12:07
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qwerty12He attempted to send me his scratchbox log over a pm12:07
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usicowqwerty12: ok.. there was another thing that I noticed, maybe it happened at the same time - I'm not sure.. but I install maemo-pan, and I think after that, my wireless router no longer gave the static IP that it used to. As if the mac address changed or something.. could that be possible?12:09
qwerty12usicow: maemo-pan shouldn't interfere with that, I have maemo-pan and I still get my ip's fine12:10
qwerty12usicow: Are you using the feature of the router where it assigns a specific ip via dhcp to a device or using a real static ip?12:11
GeneralAntillesJaffa, there is a lot to be said for going with the specification12:12
usicowqwerty12: the feature where the router assigns a specific ip via DHCP (I assume based on mac address)12:12
qwerty12usicow: yeah, it's still getting done via dhcp then as opposed to being a real static ip12:12
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camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > start12:13
camel_liuNote: For remote X connections DISPLAY should contain hostname!12:13
camel_liuSample files present.12:13
camel_liuStarting DBUS system bus12:13
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qwerty12Goddamn, if he can't live with a few errors, I doubt his programs contain bugs...12:14
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camel_liuWhat Plugin desktop file does it mean?12:15
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, ping.12:27
Stskeepsmight have to leave in a few though12:28
Stskeepsgf's home for 9 days and she wants to go shopping as she claims i don't have enough food in the house12:28
GeneralAntillesThat what I always tell my family. :P12:28
GeneralAntillesWell, it's a slightly involved question12:28
usicowqwerty12: Ok, I fixed the filesystem and thought everything was going okay,.. so I tried to update a project I've got via svn, and after a minute or so, the n810 just rebooted.. dont know why.. and now ksoftirqd/0 is using 100% CPU. Do you have any idea whats going on?12:29
GeneralAntillesBut, I guess what I want to ask of you WRT Quim's stuff about upstream alignment is: What are the concrete things Nokia should do to maximize compatibility with Debian/Ubuntu?12:29
GeneralAntillesPut simply, what are the big blockers to adding a Debian repo to your catalog and installing packages from there?12:30
Jaffagavin: Voted on #382212:31
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'll think a bit and research for a proper answer for that.. they really messed up things with not having a proper debhelper for instance, package names / not following renames of packages..12:31
JaffaBah, damned nick completion on ':'12:31
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Voted on #382212:31
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: many maemo-isms, gtkmm lacking typical properties (compile time thing), they should allow for selecting the embedded library and the full gtk12:33
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, from your comments yesterday, I'm not sure where you got that Nokia doesn't want to align Maemo with upstream from Quim's comments.12:33
GeneralAntillesUnless you were responding to them not wanting to push Maemo as a mobile Linux for use by other manufacturers.12:33
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: the last part12:33
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Stskeepsthere's plenty of good things in maemo to do exactly that though12:34
GeneralAntillesI don't see that as having anything to do with aligning with upstream12:34
crashanddieHi everyone :)12:34
GeneralAntillesHey, crashanddie.12:34
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: gtg for now, i'll think a bit about this :P12:34
GeneralAntillesHow's the job?12:34
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, thanks! :)12:34
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, awesome, very busy12:35
GeneralAntillesI'm glad you are, because I don't have the experience to. :D12:35
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, got back from work yesterday around 11PM :P12:35
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crashanddiemonday evening I'm off for Paris12:35
crashanddiethen within the next month or so, Ukraine12:35
crashanddieand then Paris again12:35
GeneralAntillesWe need a wiki page for this upstream stuff.12:38
Jaffakrisse's gone mad.12:39
GeneralAntillesJaffa, ha, that was exactly my thought.12:39
JaffaMaemo-based netbooks?12:39
JaffaI'd rather have Ubuntu or OS X on a netbook than Maemo.12:39
JaffaAlmost worth blogging about it (not via the council) as there's no comment facility there.12:40
usicow qwerty12: do you have any idea about my problem with the fs/svn rebooting/ksoftirqd? I'm leaning towards just flashing the whole thing12:41
GeneralAntillesYou take the stylus/fingers out of the equation and there isn't much point to Maemo.12:41
qwerty12usicow: Probably a dodgy sd card or the svn export or checkout is tying up the cpu and the watchdog is rebooting it12:41
crashanddieMaemo might have a point once Qt gets involved12:42
crashanddieOr liq*12:42
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, but when you have a keyboard and trackpad?12:42
crashanddieHaving a framework to easily develop lightweight applications12:42
GeneralAntillesWhy would Maemo be better there than Ubuntu?12:43
crashanddieHey, I didn't say I was right12:43
crashanddieI just woke up12:43
crashanddieI said it might have a point12:43
crashanddienot that it did :P12:43
GeneralAntillesYou must have some arguments to back up your point. :P12:44
crashanddieoh fuck Maemo12:44
GeneralAntillesRight in the ear?12:44
crashanddiegood enough of an argument for you?12:44
crashanddieIght, in the rear?12:44
GeneralAntillesQuote from the South Park movie.12:45
crashanddiepump up your ego much?12:46
crashanddiemaemopeople [...] Jaffa12:46
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crashanddieI know, I know12:47
Jaffacrashanddie: eh? is a free blog hosting site for Maemo-related topics12:47
crashanddieI'll stfu12:47
GeneralAntillesWho owns maemopeople?12:47
crashanddieWho's maddler?12:48
* Jaffa outs: bike shopping for Jaffa Jr.12:48
crashanddieJaffa, what's the budget?12:48
crashanddieJaffa, and what does he want?12:48
crashanddieTrailing? Downhill? Road?12:49
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I don't think he's more than a few years old. :P12:50
crashanddieI wouldn't suggest downhill then :P12:50
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crashanddiethe work computer has a UK-qwerty keyboard12:51
crashanddieI have a FR-azerty12:51
crashanddieI keep making mistqkates12:51
GeneralAntillesI type on two layouts without issue12:51
GeneralAntillesYou'll cope. :P12:51
crashanddieWell usually I manage12:51
crashanddieit's just this morning...12:51
crashanddieOh and btw, blackberry ftw12:52
camel_liuWhen run '', it returns below:12:52
camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > hildon-input-method[6842]: GLIB MESSAGE default - ui up and running12:52
camel_liuhildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB DEBUG default - mission_control_get_presence_actual: MC not running.12:52
camel_liuAudio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_open.wav' [error 3]12:52
camel_liuAudio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_close.wav' [error 3]12:52
camel_liu hildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin12:52
* GeneralAntilles hand crashanddie a cup of coffee.12:52
camel_liuhildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin12:52
camel_liuDoes nobody have any idea?12:52
crashanddiecamel_liu, yeah, don't spam the channel12:52
GeneralAntillescamel_liu, please use for that.12:52
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: what nokia ought to do is: reconstruct maemo. take packages and traditional dependancies from latest debian/ubuntu dist, build for device, make a script for building this foundation, open source the foundation. Use OHM + Upstart + HAL for sane system services and power savings, Xorg+omapfb driver and a hildon desktop on top. Keep system updated with upstream - customize with busybox and such but don't try to limit upstream abilities ...12:52
Stskeeps... too much. If you're going to do API breaks (GTK, GTKMM), use seperate directories and make apps depend on the specialized apps (pkg-config maemo-gtk for instance), but don't break upstream ability to get something sane. Instead of relying on nokia binary blobs for wifi etc connectivity, use bluez and wpa_supplicant, maybe customize network manager to be less crap. Otherwise, provide stub conic etc.12:52
crashanddieIs this happy hour or what?12:52
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: and then build services + apps + tablet specific things on top12:52
camel_liuI'm new in IRC12:53
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, that sounds like the answer I was looking for.12:53
crashanddiecamel_liu, does the UI show in Xephyr?12:53
crashanddiecamel_liu, can you use it?12:53
GeneralAntillesWe'll kick together a wiki page later, Stskeeps.12:53
GeneralAntillesThanks. :)12:53
camel_liuyes, it show normally12:53
crashanddiecamel_liu, then don't worry about it12:53
crashanddiecamel_liu, everyone gets warnings12:54
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, they're just harmless errors that qwerty12 told him to ignore.12:54
crashanddiecamel_liu, rule of thumb: if it works, don't mess with it12:54
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: and this will make a sane system for them and make community happy as people can, if they want, remove hildon, transfer maemo foundation to another tablet device (pandora), build their open source replacements and HW specific stuff for their device12:54
Jaffacrashanddie: as GeneralAntilles says, the type of bike is "first" ;-)12:55
Stskeepsand nokia instantly gets new apps for the maemo platform even when they're on other devices12:55
GeneralAntillesJaffa, get some baseball cards to go in the spokes. :)12:55
qwerty12This is the UK, it's all about football :p12:55
GeneralAntillesRight, that. :D12:55
* GeneralAntilles wasn't thinking.12:55
crashanddieJaffa, well, if you ever want some advice :) I'm about in to buy a £2000 downhill bike :)12:55
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, you gonna get a Beagle or Pandora?12:56
Stskeepsand has the "cool" of more polished devices and OS'es, with support and neat services you can't get easily on other HW, increasing why you should select a nokia tablet12:56
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, neither, by the looks of it12:56
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, well, Pandora is dead for me, I don't want a gaming console12:56
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, I'll get the beagle board once I have a car12:57
crashanddieI want to build a cheap audio/video system in it, using the beagle board12:57
camel_liuwhen I program something in Windows, I would like erverything to be ok, no warning, no error. In Linux or Maemo, that's different? We have to go on with so many warnings?12:57
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I want to see your notes after you do.12:57
crashanddiecamel_liu, no, you don't have to12:57
GeneralAntillesThat's been on my list for a really long time.12:57
camel_liuso I want to figure it out.12:58
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, thing is, I won't have a car here in London unless I move out12:58
crashanddiecamel_liu, excepted it's not your code12:58
GeneralAntillescamel_liu, Zephyr warnings don't have anything to do with your program.12:58
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: do you think it's a sane idea or idiotic? i mean, it doesn't really seem like fremantle OS itself has moved that much12:58
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think it's a fantastic idea.12:58
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GeneralAntillesBut I suspect Nokia will want to take baby steps to start out.12:58
camel_liubut does12:58
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: they'll also get a lot of free work from their upstream :P12:58
GeneralAntillesI'd pick a few specific things that they can start with.12:58
crashanddiecamel_liu, no, doesn't raise any warnings12:59
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think that's also the sort of answer Quim is after.12:59
GeneralAntillesSo put all that in an email as soon as you have the free time and fire it off. ;)12:59
camel_liuHow about the  GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin? So many!12:59
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: ok13:00
Stskeepsthey better give me a job offer13:00
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, hell, you wouldn't be the first community guy to apply.13:00
crashanddiecamel_liu, the underlying libraries/programs which are called/executed (and were created for a real hardware platform, and then ported to a software emulation, let's not forget that) create the warnings. One of the causes is that the scratchbox environment is extremely minimalistic (even more than Maemo itself, which is not saying nothing)13:00
GeneralAntilles(and get in)13:00
GeneralAntillesNo harm in trying if you're actually interested. :P13:00
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'm not entirely sure i would belong in nokia though :P but if i was able to insane things like this, maybe :P13:00
crashanddiecamel_liu, I don't think any operating system in the world manages to start entirely without a single warning13:01
crashanddieIt's not because those warnings are hidden from you they're anything better13:01
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: any my idea would be a "wet dream maemo", really. You can get the power of desktop apps if you want, and use the power saving and embedded apps if you want as well13:02
Stskeepsbest of both worlds13:02
crashanddiethere is no power in desktop apps13:02
Stskeepsand porting would be slightly easier13:02
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, set two targets, the "wet dream Maemo" and some specific realistic targets Nokia can hit.13:02
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: mm13:02
crashanddieonly lack of power from the intensive shit, and poor UI design13:03
Stskeepsi really think most of the stuff i've said is "realistic", as they're doing most things already (atleast what they claim)13:03
Stskeepsohm+upstart+hal for instance13:03
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, fair enough.13:03
Stskeepsshoppin' time13:03
GeneralAntillesHave fun.13:03
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* crashanddie goes to get a cup of coffee, and then gets back to Windows 2003 server, VPN, LDAP, and smartcards :)13:04
camel_liucrashanddie: thank you13:05
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qwerty12Windows server 2003 administration eh? The best thing I done with my school's windows 2003 server was hack it (their fault for using the same admin password on all the client computers) and then modify the isa server rules to let me utorrent :P13:06
crashanddieqwerty12, nha, not administration, lol13:06
crashanddieqwerty12, I have a better job than that :P13:07
qwerty12Hehe, even better :D13:07
crashanddieqwerty12, I wouldn't be travelling the world if I was a sysadmin13:07
GeneralAntillesHigh-price manwhore with a computer geek theme? :P13:07
camel_liucrashanddie, do you happen to have any links to teach how to make applications compiled in scratchbox run at Nokia N800 step by step?13:11
crashanddieOpen a browser, type "" in the address bar, click on development, click on documentation, click on how-to, click on maemo diablo release documentation13:12
crashanddiethat enough step by step?13:13
camel_liuThe Diablo reference manual is not clear about how to start at N80013:13
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camel_liuYes, I browse the, and download the reference manual13:14
camel_liuWhen I follow the manual, I confuse at section 3.5 Setting up USB Networking13:15
crashanddieyou probably don't need it13:16
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* qwerty12 would recommend to learn the essence of packaging instead13:17
crashanddiecamel_liu, once it's compiled, scp the binary over to the n800, run13:17
camel_liuWe bought several N800s from eBay, and want to do something on them.13:18
crashanddiecamel_liu, have you upgraded them to diablo?13:18
GeneralAntillesAnybody have any suggestions for what I should replace the Nokia hands startup screen with that would be themed?13:18
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, goatse13:19
crashanddie"Every reboot is a PITA"13:19
camel_liusome are OS2008. How to see the version on N800?13:19
crashanddiecamel_liu, settings > about13:19
* qwerty12 still gets shits and giggles looking at goatser13:19
MangoFusionseveral n800's...13:19
crashanddieqwerty12, goatser was the guy, actually13:20
MangoFusioni know13:20
MangoFusiona cluster!13:20
qwerty12crashanddie: really, lol13:20
camel_liuNO settings found in menu :(13:21
qwerty12My friend had a u3 and I installed gonzor for him on it and he ran it on his own computer to test it out and it dumped the firefox saved passwords and he kept the logs. He gave me the usb to put ut on it and I saw the logs and I set his avatar to goatse on ipmart13:22
crashanddieqwerty12, usb hacksaw/switchblade... Lame13:23
qwerty12crashanddie: Worked for me for getting his firefox password (unintentionally) :P13:23
GeneralAntillescamel_liu, Application menu: Settings -> Control Panel: About13:23
* qwerty12 is a self confessed script kidde13:23
qwerty12*kiddie even13:23
GeneralAntilles and
GeneralAntillesAnybody object to WONTFIX and WORKSFORME?13:25
qwerty12The guy opening 3820 is lazy imo13:26
camel_liuOk, this N800 in my hand is OS2007, and it's Application menu: Tools -> Control Panel: About. Thanks13:26
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infobotrumour has it, flashing is
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eichii have a small problem with the rights from external memorycard13:27
eichiif i put data from my laptop on it, i dont have write access to them on the n80013:28
qwerty12ext* formatted?13:28
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camel_liuHow can I start xterm on N800?13:30
qwerty12It doesn't come with OS2007 by default13:31
camel_liuSo I have to upgrade to OS2008 first?13:32
qwerty12Hmm, I have no idea where to get it for OS2007 though having only ever used it for 10 mins. I'd just say upgrade to diablo reading the link GeneralAntilles gave13:32
qwerty12Basically, yeah. Which SDK did you install btw?13:32
camel_liuJust browse to that link using N800? My SDK installed is
qwerty12Oh, programs built with that SDK wouldn't work in OS2007 anyway13:33
qwerty12No computer, as you need a computer to perform the actual upgrade13:33
eichiqwerty12, yes, ext3 but will do ex2 next days13:34
camel_liuqwerty12, I do not understand what you said.13:35
qwerty12eichi: Check if "user" owns the files you want to access. ls -l <file> should tell you13:35
camel_liuN800 cannot upgrade through wifi?13:35
qwerty12camel_liu: Not in OS2007,13:35
qwerty12Oh, my bad, I see my grammatical problems creeped up in that sentence. You need a computer to upgrade from OS2007 to OS2008.13:36
camel_liuHow? the link ( returns a blank page.13:38
GeneralAntillescamel_liu, reload.13:38
camel_liustill nothing! Not this link?13:39
GeneralAntillescamel_liu, make sure it's not just reloading the cache. . . .13:39
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eichiqwerty12, and then i have to do chown user:users <folder> -r ?13:41
qwerty12eichi: yep13:41
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eichiqwerty12, shi*, no valid user "user" ;D in laptop13:47
t_s_omaemo not usable with a larger keyboard? yea right...13:47
qwerty12eichi: do it on the tablet :P13:47
eichiand the user-ID would not be the same maybe13:47
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camel_liuother links in '' are ok except that one (Updating_the_tablet_firmware)!13:48
usicowqwerty12: what the correct mount command to remount /dev/mmcblk1p1?13:49
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GeneralAntillescamel_liu, your browser has cached the blank page.13:49
qwerty12usicow: ke-recv mounts it with something really long. Just remove and reinsert the memory card13:49
GeneralAntillesMake sure it isn't reloading the cached page.13:49
camel_liuI cleared cach, but still return blank page13:54
qwerty12Which browser?13:54
qwerty12Press Ctrl-Shift-R at the blank page13:54
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camel_liuI'll remember Ctrl-Shift-R! Thanks!13:56
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camel_liucrashanddie, GeneralAntilles, infobot and qwerty12: Thanks for your patient answers.14:05
qwerty12No problems but you should know that infobot isn't human :D14:06
camel_liuOh ?14:06
qwerty12Yeah, he's a bot14:06
camel_liujust a bot14:07
camel_liuHow clever!14:07
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camel_liuWhen a program is compiled under scratchbox, how can I ship it to N800? Is there any references? Or just follow the step of Reference Manual for maemo 4.1? crashanddie said just scp it to n800 and run. Is that simple?14:12
GeneralAntillesOf course it's that simple.14:12
camel_liujust connect N800 to host by USB and scp in terminal of host?14:14
camel_liuno gainroot on N800 or else?14:15
GeneralAntillesJust use wifi14:15
GeneralAntillessftp is also an option14:15
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hellwolfIn maemo mapper, I clicked route->download, then the application stopped. Should I wait14:16
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camel_liuBrowse to that package and download it through wifi, then install and run. Am I right?14:17
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camel_liuIf I want my apllication to be run on N800, then What I need to do is just scp or download it to N800 through wifi. No USB networking is needed, right?14:31
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GeneralAntillesWhew, there's a 2000-email lighter inbox.15:24
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RST38hrm -rf?15:27
GeneralAntillesNah, there was important stuff mixed in with the spam.15:27
hibershhello everyone15:27
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* Jaffa yawns16:38
* GAN800 wonders if karma will ever work again.16:45
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JaffaSeems unlikely.16:53
JaffaHow many people are working on fulltime?16:54
solmumahashould i be able to edit wiki or what is this user localhost thing?16:55
Jaffasolmumaha: either login or use https16:55
solmumahai did login16:55
solmumahaah, works with https, thanks16:56
solmumahaalthough it still says " You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history."16:57
JaffaYou sure you're logged in? ;-)16:58
solmumahayes, it shows my ip on top right and lets me edit it17:00
qwerty12That means you aren't logged in :)17:00
qwerty12If you are logged in, you should see your username there instead17:01
GAN800Jaffa, would you count Nemein?17:01
JaffaHmm, maybe.17:01
solmumahaou are now logged in to maemo wiki as "ukki"17:01
solmumahabut after i return to article, it shows my ip17:02
GAN800Jaffa, too many for karma not to work, methinks. :/17:02
* Jaffa trying to work out how many people /could/ be working on fixing what weve already got, rather than spending time on other things17:02
JaffaGAN800: that was where I was going, too17:02
GAN800solmumaha, there's a bug.17:03
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GAN800and there still haven't been noticeable improvements in the site performance even though we supposedly have new hardware17:05
Jaffarn to article, it shows my ip17:05
* GAN800 sighs.17:05
JaffaAh, that's now DB problems *cough*17:05
GAN800and I'd say 'Just make it work already'17:06
GAN800However much money Nokia needs to throw at it to make it work. . . .17:06
GAN800How far gone is the 100 Days now?17:07
l7what db problems?17:07
crashanddiethey didn't change shit on the website17:07
crashanddieand if they did, they need to fire the sysadmins17:07
GAN800l7, supposedly the performance bottleneck is now the db machine.17:08
crashanddiesolmumaha, don't hit the return button17:08
crashanddiesolmumaha, refresh the page17:08
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orangeyhey all!17:09
orangeyIs it in any way possible to make a telephone call with a nokia n810?17:10
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orangeyor any maemo, I guess..17:10
orangeyI mean using a GSM modem of some kind accessible to maemo17:10
Jaffaorangey: Not directly. Only using SIP or SkypeOut etc.17:10
orangeyJaffa: fair enough.17:11
orangeyI think my n810 is nearly perfect. The only thing that would make it sublime would be cell capabilities.17:11
orangeyplus or minus usable GPS : )17:11
crashanddieplus or minus?17:12
* GAN800 still cannot fathom why anybody would want to hold one of these bricks to their face.17:12
orangeycrashanddie: as in "it doesn't matter either way"17:12
crashanddieGAN800, apple effect17:13
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crashanddie"Finger it, then put your face on it"17:13
GAN800iPhone's still way smaller.17:13
crashanddiehmm, I'm sorry for what I just said17:14
crashanddieit was way less ambiguous when I thought it17:14
crashanddieanyway, back to work17:15
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GAN800bergie, when's karma gonna work again?17:18
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bergieGAN800: next week17:19
bergieI was supposed to do it last Thu but then there was a medical emergency :-/17:19
GAN800Oh, sorry to hear that.17:20
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sven-tekHi! i installed jalimo for a java program. From the error i get starting it, i found that the package classpath-gtk is missing. But its not in the repository. By chance, anyone here familiar with this?17:25
JaffaI installed jalimo-swt-example and it Just Worked[TM]17:26
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RST38hsven: Install one of the examples - it should install all the necessary stuff17:35
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camel_liuhi, everyone!17:43
camel_liuI'm new in Maemo.17:44
camel_liuI want know how to install package librsvg2-2 in scratchbox from extras repository.17:45
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camel_liuHow to install a package in scratchbox from a special repository?17:47
johnxin scratchbox, edit /etc/apt/sources.list (or maybe /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-<something>17:48
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johnxyou can find the information you need to add in any .install file for a package in extras17:49
camel_liuadd that repository to sources.list?17:49
johnxthat should do it17:49
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camel_liuthen? use apt-get?17:49
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GeneralAntillesAhh, the explosive sound of a car accident.17:51
johnxheh...I'm thousands of miles away from mine. is that outside where you are GeneralAntilles?17:52
camel_liuCan I list the content of a repository in scratchbox?17:53
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GeneralAntillesThere's a big road about 500' outside my window.17:54
johnxyou can list the contents of all repos I think17:54
johnxsome apt-cache command17:54
GeneralAntillesSome idiot in a WRX seems to have smacked into the back of an Accord.17:54
johnx4wd makes you go faster, not stop faster :)17:54
GeneralAntillesCrash, then the squealing tires.17:55
camel_liujohnx, I'll try it. Thanks.17:55
GeneralAntillesGuess they didn't account for the wet roads.17:55
johnxit's awesome when people in 4wd SUVs try to drive in the snow17:55
johnxcamel_liu, apt-cache dumpavail | less17:55
Kegetyscrash first, then brake? :P17:55
johnxprobably the accord had his brakes on?17:56
GeneralAntillesKegetys, more like the sound of the Accord stealing all of the Subaru's energy.17:56
RST38hjohnx: I have driven my CRV in the snow. Drives just fine, as long as you know what you are doing17:56
BugBluefinally compiling kismet with pcap support17:56
GeneralAntillesCR-V comes in 4WD?17:57
BugBluejust patched the source that GPS will work17:57
qwerty12with tz1's patch?17:57
RST38hGeneral: It i AWD17:57
johnxRST38h, I guess I should say unskilled people who think 4wd is a replacement for experience17:57
RST38hjohnx: I am not particularly skilled, just careful (most of the time)17:57
johnxyeah, I'm real careful in snow, except in open parking lots where I know where the curbs are17:58
GeneralAntillesYeah, it's not that 4WD can't drive in snow, it's just that idiots tend to thing certain automobile features can save them from anything.17:58
BugBlueqwerty12: no not yet... I'm playing17:58
* GeneralAntilles has yet to drive in snow.17:58
GeneralAntillesRain I can do, though!17:58
qwerty12BugBlue: Ah, ok. I should recompile aircrack-ng from the latest svn but that means I have to set up an cs2008 toolchain :/17:58
johnxjust a matter of drive slower than you think you should, leave lots of space, love your ABS like you never have before17:59
BugBluejust lost my ssh connection with my nokia18:00
BugBlueI guess kismet does work18:00
* RST38h had to drive out from about 30cm of snow in CRV - it looks and feels like a speedboat but runs18:00
johnx"work" is putting it a little strongly18:00
BugBluelet's take a look at the device18:00
RST38h50cm stop it dead - it is just stuck18:00
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* johnx loves his little subaru wagon18:00
johnxbiggest problem is an open diff in the rear :/18:01
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RST38hjohnx: Justy? =)18:01
johnxRST38h, 96 impreza outback sport18:01
* RST38h almost bought that one18:02
johnxgood year for that car, before they made them huge and heavy, also the 96 was the only year with a 2.2L that was non-interference18:03
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RST38hI got spooked by that air intake in front of the windshield18:05
johnxthe scoopy thing?18:05
johnxthat was a 97 feature :)18:05
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RST38hThen it was the '97 model as I ended up buying '97 CRV18:05
johnxit's for uhm...cooling something or uhm...increasing the aerodynamic profile :/18:06
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johnxlooks fugly, blocks wind, not attached to anything (AFAIK) on a non-turbo subaru18:06
mardi__getting cool air to the small intercooler18:06
mardi__on turbo model18:06
RST38hjohnx: I suspect it is for ventingfumes18:06
johnxwhile you're in reverse?18:07
RST38hbecause older subarus had that oil burnout problem18:07
johnxyeah, that's why I stayed away from the EA82 engines18:07
RST38hjohnx: maybe it scoops air and blows fumes down under? =)18:07
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johnxRST38h, so it can come in around the gear shift? :D18:08
RST38hkinda =)18:08
RST38hI once did work for the guy whose 87 (?) Legacy started smoking every time he reached 40mph18:09
RST38hIt also looked exactly like 84 Camry =)18:09
johnxthat would be an EA82 I believe18:09
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mardi__engine has an undertray, doubt fumes would get out underneath18:13
RST38hthey got out up front though18:14
RST38hbtw, Subaru is absolutely hated by mechanics =)18:15
johnxI believe it18:15
johnxI don't look forward to working on mine18:15
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* RST38h wonders which one is more trouble: Subaru or LuAZ18:18
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RST38hOne has got weird engine, another has got weird transmission18:21
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johnxgive me a RWD car with an I6 any day...18:24
GAN800It's too bad RWD is dead18:26
RST38hnot yet18:26
johnxif you want something new: yes.18:26
johnxwell, BMW still does it18:26
RST38hSee Toyota Avensis for example18:26
johnxreally, still using a 2JZ?18:27
johnxFWD I4...18:28
RST38hReally? Last time I checked (2 years ago?) it was RWD18:29
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johnxmaybe a different toyota18:30
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GAN800I'm still pulling for a new RWD Corolla18:31
RST38hwhat do you need rwd for?18:31
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johnxpeople have been doing that for 20 years18:31
camel_liuwhen I run 'apt-get update', there're something 'Failed to fetch'.  Not all, and just a few. Why?18:32
johnxcamel_liu, warnings or errors?18:32
GAN800Two words: torque steer18:32
camel_liuI have to download them through browser18:32
johnxalso, is it the thing you just added?18:32
camel_liuNo, includes something old18:33
johnxcould you put the error up on pastebin?18:33
camel_liuwhen I install Maemo SDK, this happen once.18:33
camel_liupastebin? I have been there. Where?18:34
infobot[~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : , , , ,
camel_liuI'm a freshman in Maemo18:34
johnxcopy the whole output of apt-get update to pastebin :)18:35
johnxthat way we can see what's going on18:35
camel_liuwait a moment18:35
camel_liuError with post: Sorry, your post tripped our spam filter - let us know if you think this could be improved18:38
johnxtry a different pastebin I guess?18:40
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GeneralAntillesStupid Obama idiots making me get up off the couch to answer the door. . . .18:41
RST38hDoesn't that reduce his chances of success? =)18:42
GeneralAntillesI don't need anybody telling me who to vote for, thanks.18:42
camel_liuWhy? Should I register to post the code at pasterbin?18:43
johnxsome people do :)18:43
johnxcamel_liu, you shouldn't need to register. just maybe18:44
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, I wonder what ossi1967's definition of a "touch based OS" is. . . .18:45
RST38hGeneral: Put a sign up - "Political campaigners will be shot, dismembered, diced, and fed to hamsters"18:45
GeneralAntillesI wouldn't have gotten up at all if I weren't expecting a FedEx package today.18:45
johnxI don't have scratchbox setup right now. Can someone comment on camel_liu's error message?18:47
RST38hthis is not an error message18:49
RST38hit is a warning that some repos are down18:49
johnxthe file is retrieavable in a browser. Is this temporary? or is there a workaround?18:50
camel_liuI can downnload them through firefox however!18:51
johnxsame here. obviously apt isn't handling "302 found" correctly18:51
johnxbut at the same time, the repository shouldn't be returning 302 found18:51
RST38hit should come up18:55
RST38hsooner or later18:56
camel_liuWhen I install maemo SDK at first time, this issue suffered me three days. One file is always failed to fetch. I tried everything, including dns resolving and reinstalling the whole system. The final mothed is downloading that file through browser and open the .gz. Save it as what name it should be and where it should be.18:56
RST38hThe weird thing is, I also installed Maemo SDK and did not need this step18:56
RST38hdidn't apt-get anything - the thing installed and just worked.18:56
johnxfrom wget on the command line it's giving me 200 OK18:57
johnxcamel_liu, outside of scratchbox, could you try downloading one of the Packages.gz files with wget?18:58
camel_liuI follewed the reference manual, the auto install .sh is stop at update, so I have to update list manually18:58
johnxcamel_liu, you didn't do anything wrong I think. it appears to be some problem with maemo.org18:59
camel_liuyes, I can get it with wget just in scratchbox!18:59
johnxcamel_liu, when you use wget on the line that says "HTTP request sent, awaiting response" what does it say? 200 OK? or something else?19:00
camel_liunew post including wget info, see
camel_liuHTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found19:02
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johnxok, looks like one of the mirrors of is returning 302 found...19:03
johnxit doesn't do that here, but it also resolves to a different address19:03
camel_liubut we cannot control which mirror it choosed, can we?19:03
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johnxhang on a sec19:04
camel_liuwget can resolve to another one, but apt-get cannot, right?19:05
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johnxno, wget handles the redirect correctly19:05
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johnxon my computer it is accessing a different mirror. That's probably the case for other people too19:06
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RST38hcamel_liu: Have you considered using SB2 instead? =)19:06
* RST38h smiles satanically19:06
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qwerty12SB2 can burn in hell!19:06
johnxRST38h, won't help19:06
RST38hSB2 is at home there!19:07
camel_liuapt-get cannot redirect correctly?19:07
RST38hjohnx: I do not remember SB2 ever doing this19:07
* qwerty12 douses SB2 with water. Drown bitch!19:07
RST38hOn the other hand, I do not remember SB doing that either =(19:07
johnxcamel_liu, yes. but the bug is that the repository shouldn't be redirecting19:08
johnxRST38h, apt doesn't handle 302 redirects. the mirror he connects to is redirecting. Yors isn't19:08
johnxRST38h, it's a location based thing. Moving would help. :) So would fixing the repository server...19:08
RST38hjohnx: No, I mean I do not remember it running apt-get during install at all19:08
johnxRST38h, it did. you missed it :)19:09
RST38hWait wait....19:09
RST38hHe cannot move of course. But he can edit his hosts file to point to the correct mirror19:09
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camel_liuIn, at the end, it runs apt-get19:09
johnxyeah, that might work. it would be best to just get this cleared up so other people don't run into it. I'm sure it's not intended behavior19:09
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camel_liuI've slept only 4 hours every these three days to install maemo. Just because of this issue.19:12
camel_liuWhich hosts file should I edit to point to the correct mirror?19:12
johnxinside scratchbox, edit /etc/hosts19:13
johnxadd this line:19:13
johnx210.150.253.248     repository.maemo.org19:13
johnxthat *might* work19:13
GAN800Doubt it19:14
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johnxGAN800, better ideas. Before you ask, yes I'm filing a bug19:14
GAN800No, but s/$akamai mirror/ doesn't work for http directory listings.19:15
qwerty12That reminds me, nokia people should get rid of files not needed: ...19:16
RST38hcan apt-get be configured to use a proxy?19:17
BugBlueoke my kismet does work nicely :D19:17
johnxRST38h, yes19:17
BugBlueand it doesn't even destroy my wireless anymore19:17
johnxBugBlue, does it actually produce proper results?19:17
RST38hthen the plan-b solution would be to make it run through a US-based proxy19:17
johnxcamel_liu, where are you?19:18
qwerty12johnx: I've had kismet running for 24h successfully19:18
BugBluejohnx: it does19:18
johnxqwerty12, I did too, but it returned lots of phantom results when checked against my zaurus19:18
BugBluetime to run around the village here after some more configuring19:18
qwerty12johnx: + I was able to get the WEP key of the network I was dumping packets from19:18
camel_liuThe number of files that failed to fetch is not constant.19:19
johnxdoes the IP address of server change?19:19
camel_liuno, just
melmothi have a daemon that i can start with /etc/init.d/servicescript start. I use update-rc.d so it should start for runlevel 2,3,4 and 5 (S90). But "it does not work".19:21
melmothany idea of where i could look ? any package known to start a daemon at startup so i can look how it s done there ?19:22
johnxmelmoth, is it symlinked into /etc/rc2.d as Snndaemon19:22
johnxwhere nn is the order19:22
melmothyep , it is.19:23
qwerty12melmoth: You shouldn't need to start it for runlevel 3 & 419:23
camel_liuhow to resolve '302 Found'? Just manually fetch them one by one?19:25
RST38hyou may configure apt-get to use a US-based proxy or something19:26
johnxcamel_liu, can you use a proxy? I'm filing a bug report so that it can be fixed properly,19:26
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melmothlet see if it works better with 99 instead of 90 as the order19:27
camel_liuhow to use a proxy in apt-get?19:27
johnxfirst try this:19:28
johnxexport http_proxy=http://some-proxy:808019:29
johnxreplace some-proxy with the real name, and 8080 with whatever port19:29
BugBlueit seems that the output from gpsd/the gps driver changed between maemo 4.0 and 4.119:30
camel_liuBut I have no US-based proxy :(19:30
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RST38hcamel_ Google search for "http proxies" ? =)19:33
camel_liuno, but I'll try19:33
johnxcamel_liu, do you already connect through a proxy?19:40
melmothHmm, actually, the daemon starts, but it dies because of dbus: cannot open /var/lib/dbus/machine-id . Looks like i should wait untill the whole desktop environment is started.19:41
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johnxI am testing proxies inside China and they seem to work fine :)19:41
qwerty12melmoth: hmm, if your daemon is running as root, either prefix it with run-standalone or put this in the postinst of your program:19:42
qwerty12if [ ! -e /var/lib/dbus/machine-id ]; then19:42
qwerty12dbus-uuidgen --ensure=/var/lib/dbus/machine-id19:42
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camel_liujohnx, is 'export http_proxy=' the parameter of apt-get?19:43
melmothhmmm.. So, it should not do that if it run as user ? Let s try that, it does not need to be root in the first place.19:44
qwerty12melmoth: yep19:44
johnxexport http_proxy=foo:808019:44
johnxapt-get update19:44
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johnxcamel_liu, separate commands19:44
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camel_liuhow can I validate a proxy? ping?19:48
johnxtell me the proxy and I'll try it :)19:49
camel_liu208.62.125.146:80 from
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johnxnot working here. try
camel_liuErr diablo/sdk Release.gpg19:52
camel_liu  Could not resolve '3127'19:52
johnxI think you might have typed something wrong19:52
camel_liuErr diablo/sdk/free Packages19:52
camel_liu  Could not resolve '3127'19:52
camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > export http_proxy=
camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > apt-get update19:53
johnxok, that's right19:54
johnxfails here too, but try wget at least19:55
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camel_liuhow can I disable the 'export http_proxy='?19:56
johnxunset http_proxy19:56
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Stskeepscamel_liu: if you have repo issues from installing sdk, get the new .sh from the page where you get it, it should be fixed20:07
johnxStskeeps, issues with "302 found" ?20:07
Stskeepspossibly yeah20:08
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camel_liuI installed sdk.20:08
camel_liuwhat i want know is to install librsvg2-220:09
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camel_liuI follow the reference manual to try monkey bubble20:10
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camel_liuit needs librsvg2-2, which is available in extras repository20:11
camel_liuso I add that repo to sources.list20:12
camel_liuand try apt-get update20:12
camel_liuthen get '302 Found'.20:12
camel_liuWhen I install sdk, this also happened to me. I resolved it by downloading the failed file through browser, opening and saving it as needed.20:14
camel_liuThis is what caused Err in .sh: $__scratchbox/login apt-get -o Acquire::http::TimeOut=15 -o Acquire::http::Retries=2 update20:16
camel_liuStskeeps, new .sh changed this?20:17
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camel_liuProblem with apt-get or repo server?20:18
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camel_liujohnx, I can download ,gz from, any help?20:22
johnxwith wget?20:22
johnxdoes it give you 302 found at all?20:22
johnxfirefox understands redirects. 302 found is a redirect.20:23
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camel_liuwget also understands.20:23
johnxdoes wget say "302 Found" at some point during the download?20:24
camel_liuwhy not apt-get? It's not only for maemo, it's for ubuntu too20:24
johnxI don't know. ask the people who wrote apt-get20:24
camel_liuyes, wget say it, but finally redirect to another one20:26
RST38hso, using a proxy did not work out?20:27
camel_liujohnx has given me a proxy, and did not work out20:28
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johnxcamel_liu, try one more thing. Add this to /etc/apt.conf:
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camel_liuapt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy= update20:33
johnxsure, that should work20:33
johnxdoes it work?20:33
camel_liudoes not work too20:33
johnx302 found or other error?20:33
camel_liu40% [Connecting to 3127]20:33
camel_liu Could not resolve '3127'20:34
johnxok, that's not the right syntax20:34
johnxdoesn't work here either20:34
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RST38hthis looks like config file syntax20:35
RST38hgimme a moment20:35
johnxI need to get some sleep. sorry guys :(20:36
johnxgood luck20:36
RST38hapt.conf: Acquire::http::Proxy "http://repository-cache:3142";20:36
RST38hjohnx: good night20:36
camel_liuThank you so much20:36
GAN800Ugh, I can hear the marching band practice from a mile away.20:36
camel_liugood night20:36
RST38hthe above line has to be inserted into the apt.conf20:36
RST38hGAN: Lucky. I can hear the traveling circus performance 300 meters from here20:37
RST38hOne would think that the end of October is where they should find some [warm] home and close up for the winter...20:37
GAN800Sounded like one of my neighbors holding a drum circle at first.20:37
RST38hHave they at least got any cute girls? =)20:38
RST38hOk, try apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy= update20:40
RST38hAnd see what happens20:40
camel_liuI'm trying20:41
camel_liuseems to work20:41
RST38hall righty20:41
camel_liubut http://repository-cache:3142/ cannot20:44
RST38hthis is just a sample url20:44
RST38hdo not use it, use the one that ends with :312720:44
camel_liu3127 Done!  When johnx said "ok, that's not the right syntax"20:46
RST38hI have given you the correct syntax20:46
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camel_liuI began to try the right one20:46
camel_liuyes! RST38h gave the same one! Thanks a lot!20:47
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camel_liuBut johnx just left20:47
RST38hIt is long past midnight where he lives20:47
camel_liuJust a few seconds he can get the right answer20:48
qwerty12_N800Hmm, by pinging johnx, he wakes up from his sleep :)20:49
johnxthis works for me -> apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy= update20:49
camel_liuHe has spared so much time with me about this issue. It's a pity that the right answer comes out just seconds after his leaving.20:50
camel_liuOh, you're still here!20:51
johnxI'm just glad it worked20:51
Stskeepsjohnx: disabling beeps when your nick comes up is a basic thing to be able to sleep :>20:51
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johnxStskeeps, yeah, but I might *miss something* O_o20:51
* johnx really sleeps20:51
camel_liujohnx, Thanks so much for your effort and time on it.20:51
camel_liuIt's my first day of IRC20:52
camel_liuAnd this is the right place.20:52
* RST38h should probably release something over the weekend20:53
camel_liuWhy couldn't find package librsvg2?20:54
camel_liu librsvg2-220:54
camel_liuIs it in extra repo of maemo?20:55
camel_liuThe reference manual says "Start from librsvg installation. One version is available in extras repository."20:59
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camel_liuIs the package librsvg2-2 in extras repository?21:05
solmumahacamel_liu: try apt-cache search librsvg21:07
camel_liunothing returned21:07
solmumahaseems it's in chinook extras21:08
camel_liuWhen I try 'fakeroot apt-get install librsvg2-2', it returned 'E: Couldn't find package librsvg2-2'21:08
camel_liuI followed Diablo's reference manual21:09
lcukcamel_liu, would you like me to download the file, print it out place it on a wooden table, photograph it, import it, fax it to you to be imported into Word where you can OCR it and recover the original file?   it will probably be quicker than your current attempt21:09
RST38hmoo, lcuk21:10
lcukhiya rst21:10
qwerty12_N800lcuk, could you do that for me please21:11
JaffaGeneralAntilles: There's one person outstanding who thumbed down krisse's post but hasn't hearted my post ;-)21:11
lcukof course qwerty12_N80021:11
camel_liuI'm a freshman not only in maemo, but also in Linux. In fact, I just use Linux (Ubuntu) 4 days and the same with maemo.21:11
lcukcamel_liu, i really hope your day gets better with maemo - i realise its first day, but most of the time things are smoother than this21:12
* lcuk kicks the internet21:12
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AstralStormlcuk: ouch! why did you kick me?21:14
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lcukheh cos you wont download fast enough21:14
* RST38h is still deciding whether to thumb down Jaffa's post or heart it21:15
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JaffaRST38h: thumb it down then ;-)21:15
JaffaKarma's broken atm anyway21:15
RST38hJaffa: Err on the pessimistic side? =)21:15
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camel_liuI try to follow ervery instruction of the reference. But there're so many things beyond it.21:15
JaffaRST38h: life sucks ;-)21:15
RST38hI mean, it is obvious that nobody needs another Maemo netbook21:16
RST38hBut the reasons sound wrong21:16
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JaffaFeel free to comment. I'd've not bothered posting at all if krisse's blog accepted comments; and it was a somewhat rushed post.21:16
RST38hI think that the whole reason why we have a "netbook" is because ASUS marketing/engineering lacks imagination21:17
lcuki would like to see nokia/maemo branded software running on the desktop as a companion/manager app for my handheld devices21:17
AstralStormRST38h: but we'll buy the next one anyway if it's so much better21:17
lcukto do the stuff the tablet IS weaker at21:17
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lcukdesktop == anything bigger than a tablet21:17
AstralStormlcuk: and it still fails that due to small screen21:17
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camel_liuIt's 2:16 a.m., and I'd better to go to bed. Thanks erveryone here. I experience my first day in IRC channel, and it's so good and better than google.21:18
RST38hSo they took their old S100/S200 subnotebook model (very small), cheapened it down to <$400 and sold it with Linux21:18
AstralStormlcuk: almost, tiny laptop is fairly portable21:18
lcukAstralStorm, but a small laptop is not a tablet21:18
AstralStormmy categorization is this:21:18
RST38hAs soon as people found out you could run WinXP on that thing, they did and ASUS had to oblige21:18
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RST38hSo, the rule of thumb is: If it looks like a laptop, people will EXPECT it to run Windows and Office, no matter how slowly21:18
lcukpeople dont expect all of itunes interface on their ipod - itunes allows scope for easier management of media than a tiny handheld can give21:19
AstralStormwearable pc < cellphone < tablet < ... some hole ... < netbook/subnotebook < ... large hole ... < portable desktop < desktop21:19
JaffaRST38h: indeed. I've still got a Psion netBook in the drawer next to me21:19
RST38hThis means death to Moblin and other mobile Linux initiatives on netbooks21:19
RST38hJaffa: But it is no laptop, it is DIFFERENT21:19
Jaffalcuk: absolutely21:19
RST38hSame goes for Nokia E9021:19
RST38hOr the original Nokia 7710 with what later became Maemo21:20
AstralStormRST38h: except E90 is a cellphone :>21:20
JaffaYou just have to look at the failure of the Foleo to know that people want their "netbooks" to be mini-laptops21:20
lcukjaffa :) your media encoder needs a home ;)21:20
AstralStormit's much more portable21:20
AstralStormnow, iPhone broke some stereotypes21:20
RST38hAstral: yea, among other things :)21:20
RST38hiPhone is really a phone, just well made21:20
AstralStormwhile n8x0 is closer to a fully fledged PC21:20
RST38hJaffa: Let us not bring up Foleo or ANYTHING coming from Palm, ok?21:20
RST38hThese folks are suicidally stupid, period.21:21
lcuk+lurk mode, back later21:21
AstralStormdrop in abiword and gnustep... and you could even do some text tasks21:21
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AstralStormnot that it'd be convenient21:21
AstralStormmore like a stopgap measure21:21
RST38hAstral: The moment you claim it is a "PC", all the reviewers out there will ask if it runs Office21:21
Jaffalcuk: maybe not on an N900 (although unless it ships with oodles of storage [and 32GB had been hinted at], transcoding is still useful for saving space)21:21
RST38hAstral: So, Nokia never claims it to be a PC21:21
AstralStormwhich is good21:22
AstralStormit's not one (yet)21:22
AstralStormuntil it gets 256 MB ram and a shrunk-down OOo21:22
RST38hSo the idea is not to put Maemo into another small notebook21:22
AstralStormor a comparable office suite (gnome-office anyone?)21:22
RST38hIt is to put Maemo (or a similar setup) into something like a StarTrek datapad21:22
AstralStormthis is a niche21:22
RST38hAnd see if this datapad can be effectively used21:22
lcukjaffa, transcoding is still a very practical thing to consider - especially when you consider that HD episodes and movies are here21:22
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AstralStormalthough it does really well as a laptop21:22
JaffaAstralStorm: and OOo will require a heavily updated UI. Again, hints from the EPOC R5 office apps would be useful.21:22
RST38hSmall notebooks are also a niche so there is nothing wrong with it21:22
AstralStormand mediocre as datapad21:23
RST38hThe question is whether this "niche" can be expanded21:23
JaffaRST38h: it'd be cool to have a slightly larger, but thinner and lighter tablet which is just like a Star Trek PADD21:23
Jaffalcuk: that's true21:23
AstralStormJaffa: no, larger wouldn't be pocketable21:23
AstralStormwhich means failure21:23
RST38hJaffa: Or four iPhones glued together ;)21:23
lcukand battery life21:23
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AstralStormunless we get a foldable screen21:23
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RST38hBig but thin is ok21:23
RST38hit is just a little bit dfferent niche21:24
lcuka doublehigh :D
AstralStormRST38h: there are such tablets on market already21:24
AstralStormfairly expensive though21:24
RST38hAstral: Yes, but none are practical21:24
* lcuk is reinserting networking code now :)21:24
AstralStormyes... because they're too large :>21:24
RST38hAstral: They usually come with an x86 and Windows, eat through their batteries in <4 hours21:24
AstralStormthat too21:24
RST38hAnd even although they are thin, the weight is too much21:24
AstralStormnext-gen Intel CPU will be nice though21:25
RST38hSo, make one <1cm thick and <500g in weight and make it run for 12 hours non stop21:25
AstralStormwhich means: make n810 with a bigger screen ;P21:25
RST38hAnd call it N999 or whatever21:25
JaffaAstralStorm: as an alongside product with the existingly sized tablets21:25
RST38hBetter yet: make them in several different sizes, just like datapads21:26
AstralStormmake it use 2 batteries (it will probably keep the weight still)21:26
AstralStormhaha, that is hard to mass produce21:26
RST38hthe UI should scale of course21:26
RST38hwhy is it hard to produce?21:26
AstralStormand it should make coffee21:26
RST38hYou have got a bunch of different standard LCD modules21:26
lcukno, it should have an interface to order coffee21:26
AstralStormyes, you can make like 3 sizes21:26
RST38hOrder several types of casing, use the same electronics21:26
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RST38hIn order to enable comfortable touch typing, provide tactile feedback like Nokia does in 580021:27
AstralStormI would like n900 to use space more efficiently21:27
JaffaThis larger tablet is, in some ways, what TechCrunch are allegedly trying to do.21:27
AstralStormn810 has a lot of spare21:27
RST38hi.e. make it click and bibrate a little21:27
AstralStorm(although cooling is a concern, so is weight)21:27
JaffaRST38h: PeterS hinted at haptic over coffee at the summit.21:27
AstralStormJaffa: hmmmmh21:28
RST38hJaffa: In 5800 they do it in a dead stupid way21:28
lcukthats a lie! there was no coffee at the summit, only beer! ;)21:28
RST38hno extra hw required, just using the vibration feature of the phone21:28
AstralStormRST38h: which eats a lot of power21:28
RST38hAstral: for very short amounts of time21:29
AstralStormnot really - it adds up21:29
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RST38hAstral: and you can really just replace it with clicking21:29
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RST38hLess comfortabel but will do21:29
AstralStormclicking is there in n810 I think21:29
AstralStormwell, keyboard is good21:29
RST38hbut n810 virtual keyboard is too small21:29
AstralStormscreen can do sounds :>21:29
AstralStormvirtual? who needs virtual21:30
RST38hin bigger size you can make it much better21:30
AstralStormthere is a way to make a bigger one21:30
RST38hwell, I do not expect the datapad to have a real kbd21:30
AstralStormby making it a clamshell21:30
Jaffalcuk: this was at about 08:30 on the Saturday. I think people still had enough beer in their veins ;-)21:30
RST38hrollable maybe? ;)21:30
AstralStormnah, there's no way to strengthen such a keyboard21:30
AstralStormit feels bad21:31
AstralStormwell, no21:31
RST38hI say just make a virtual keyboard on screen and forget aboutit21:31
RST38hif it is large and provides SOME feedback, most people will be ok21:31
AstralStormno, they are evil to type21:31
AstralStormand leave smudges21:31
AstralStormand have no ridges to find keys21:31
lcuktakes away estate - the 810 might not be perfect kb, but it means i have whole screen to myself21:31
RST38hfor desktop typing use BT keyboard and place device on a stand21:31
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AstralStormactually, I even find Samsung U700 number keys nice21:32
AstralStormand they're flatter than n810's21:32
RST38hlcuk: I will not excuse Nokia for not including a decent d-pad upfront.21:32
RST38hNo way you can persuade me.21:32
AstralStormthey have ridges though21:32
AstralStormyes, it's crap21:32
lcukwouldnt try to  - i know everyone is different21:32
AstralStormthe dpad should be there21:32
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AstralStormalternatively, two separate selectors21:32
AstralStormlike on some cell phones21:32
lcukmy nokia sits in a much larger form factor thing most of the time anyway - i have dpad always available21:32
AstralStormthere is enough space for 2 buttons and enter21:33
RST38hbut I guess with bigger touch screens you can provide all this stuff onscreen21:33
AstralStormand some slack space could be salvaged21:33
RST38hthey have to be really bigger though - something like 12" at least21:33
lcukasus eee touchscreen looks nice21:33
AstralStormRST38h: you can emulate a touchpad21:33
RST38hAStorm: I do. It sucks.21:33
AstralStormthat will work... call it a scrollpad21:33
RST38hWant to know why? =)21:33
lcukblue maemo :) connect nokia to nokia21:34
RST38h1. No multitouch, so running+shooting does not work in games21:34
AstralStorm(what sucks is I have to tap twice to engage it first)21:34
RST38h2. Fingers cover 2/3 of the screen21:34
Kegetysa small scroll wheel would be nice at the top edge of the device, propably wont happen though since the crappy touch screen keyboards etc. are "cool" now21:34
AstralStormbut we were talking about larger screen21:34
RST38h3. The screen in N8x0 is so damn fragile that pressing on it with your fingers is scary21:34
lcukwould have to be larger multitouch21:34
AstralStormyes, scroll wheel or scroll buttons even21:34
AstralStormRST38h: you haven't seen a fragile screen yet21:35
RST38hIf you give me a 12" solid screen with multitouch, it should be completely fine21:35
AstralStormthis one is actually fairly sturdy21:35
RST38hAStorm: I have, got one on my desk in the ICNexus devkit21:35
AstralStormI wany my ridges21:35
AstralStormI can't find keys w/o them and mispress21:35
AstralStormwe need something like M$ Surface 221:35
AstralStormwith Z axis (limited, but enough)21:36
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AstralStormeven 1-bit would be ok21:36
RST38hjust a better pressure sensitivity should be sufficient21:36
RST38hN8x0 appears to have just 3 levels - touched not touched, and touched with your beak, quickly21:36
lcukactually no, theres about 400  distinct levels21:36
lcukjust not much uses it21:37
lcukxsp library makes it available :)21:37
lcukbut its uncalibrated (though useful)21:37
Kegetysand judging from some drawing app I tried it doesnt seem very reliable21:37
RST38hNot having any woodpecker DNA, I have no use for those levels21:37
Kegetysas in the sensitivity is entirely different depending on which part of the srceen you poke21:37
RST38hKegetys: exactly21:37
AstralStormbecause it's uncalibrated21:38
lcukKegetys, without proper pressure calibration that will happen anyway21:38
lcukand no touchscreen does that ever anywhere21:38
AstralStormsomeone should write it21:38
lcuktemperature changes alter the differentials21:38
AstralStormwe have a temp sensor21:39
AstralStormuse it21:39
lcukso you could calibrate it right now and it would drift with use21:39
lcukbut the part of the screen under the cpu gets hotter21:39
lcukand near the wifi21:39
AstralStormyou can correct for that21:39
AstralStormboth have temp. sensors21:39
lcukand if the battery is in use21:39
lcukor charging21:39
AstralStormdid I mention it's all known?21:39
AstralStormjust no one wrote it21:39
lcuktheres lots of things and for the fractional difference it would make its really not worth it21:40
AstralStorm(in part because there's no API)21:40
lcukyour fingers themselves give more variance than a tuned touch can clarify21:40
AstralStormwell, still better than not tuned21:40
lcukwe arent trying to do electron scanning with it21:40
AstralStormit will at least get 3-5 levels21:40
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AstralStormmaybe 621:41
AstralStormwhich is nice :)21:41
lcuk3-5 levels of what? a touchscreen with over 500 levels21:41
AstralStormso what if you get to scale them?21:41
lcuki KNOW you cannot hold it at a particular level yourself21:41
AstralStormto reduce errors, you have to quantize21:41
RST38hGentlemen, N8x0 has uneven touchscreen sensitivity across the screen21:42
lcukwhat you are suggesting it like trying to grind a chalkboard to the preciion of a telescope mirror21:42
RST38hNothing temp related, just the way they solder those touch screens in21:42
AstralStormthat is mostly constant21:43
AstralStormwhich means it can be calibrated21:43
RST38hfor example, the right half of the screen in my 810 is noticeably less sensitive than the left side21:43
AstralStormyes, it is21:43
AstralStormhere too :)21:43
RST38hAStorm: I do not think it is a constant. We have got several tablets at work (few people bought them too)21:43
lcukmy right half works, but thats because ive worn the left half down :(21:43
lcuki cant use my touch on main nokia with fingers anymore21:44
AstralStormright bottom corner is the weakest here21:44
RST38hAnd, when looking at the screen surface, they all seem to be bent in slightly different ways21:44
RST38hAStorm: yep21:44
mariorzis there some way to get 3g internet with any of the tablets?21:44
lcukuse a 3g phone21:44
RST38hmariorz: Use a 3G phone as uplink21:44
AstralStormmariorz: yes, if you get a modem or a phone21:44
AstralStorm3g modem should work with external hub21:44
AstralStorm(assuming it works under Linux and you're not afraid of compiling the driver)21:45
AstralStorm*works in21:45
mariorzbut none of the tablets have any kind of port to connect a 3g modem directly?21:45
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* RST38h asks the Green One to make MTS enable the 3G network before Christmas21:45
AstralStormmariorz: they have an USB hub21:45
AstralStormalthough with low current (up to 100 mA)21:46
RST38hIt is beyond bizarre: even freaking Belorussia has got 3G and we haven't21:46
AstralStormso you'll need an external powered hub21:46
AstralStormRST38h: poor you... which country?21:46
mariorzAstralStorm: cool, so i jsut need a usb 3g modem? such a thing exists right?21:46
RST38hAStorm: .RU21:46
AstralStormI just bought my 3.5G plan21:46
qwerty12_N800RST38h, kill beeline21:46
AstralStormahhh, explains it21:46
lcukmarcoil, or you could get an n810w which uses wimax21:46
AstralStormit's because of huge distances21:46
RST38hqwerty: ah, who cares about beeline21:46
lcukif thats available nearby21:46
RST38hbeeline isn't even planning it21:46
AstralStormexcept it usually isn't21:47
AstralStormwimax has to be specifically deployed21:47
RST38hAStorm: Doesn't explain shit. In many senses, local cell providers are better than rest of Europe21:47
AstralStorma good 3.5G modem will work on any cell network21:47
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AstralStormat worst with 2.5G GPRS21:47
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mariorzno dice on the wimax here21:48
AstralStorm(maybe even plain old TDMA data call)21:48
AstralStormthat's the main advantage of cell networks - they have a large degree of backward compatibility21:48
RST38hTDMA won't work21:48
AstralStormit will if the modem supports it21:48
AstralStormit's the standard plain old data call21:48
RST38hI.e. data calling will work but TDMA will not21:48
AstralStormTDMA is data calling, or sth21:49
lcukmariorz, if you plan on roaming about - the usb modem idea is impractical, look for a phone with bluetooth and a modem that you can tether to21:49
AstralStormor am I mistaken?21:49
RST38hAStorm: AMPS21:49
RST38hAStorm: TDMA is a previous generation of GSM (which is also TDMA by nature BTW)21:49
AstralStormCDMA is GPRS/EDGE, W-CDMA is UMTS21:49
RST38hThe data calling over TDMA was called AMPS21:49
AstralStormand HSXPA21:49
RST38hAStorm: No21:49
RST38hhere is how it goes:21:49
RST38hCellular standard: TDMA, media access control: TDMA, data calls: AMPS21:50
mariorzlcuk: why is it impractical for roaming?21:50
RST38hCellular standard: GSM, media access control: TDMA, data calls: GPRS, EDGE21:50
AstralStormlcuk: no, usb modems are tiny21:50
AstralStormand it will get smaller21:50
RST38hCellular standard: CDMA, media access control: CDMA, data calls: 1xRTT EVDO21:50
AstralStormthe only problem is the USB cable21:50
lcukbecause the usb cable has to stick out from behind the kickstand and its ungainly and will pop out and you have ugly thick wires in places you dont need them21:50
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AstralStormRST38h: ahha21:51
AstralStormmy mistake21:51
RST38hCellular standard: UMTS (aka 3G), media access control: CDMA, data calls: HSDPA/HSUPA21:51
mariorzducktape takes care of that21:51
mariorzi kid21:51
RST38hOur local problem here was mainly with the political maneuring for 3G band going for years21:51
AstralStormahh, the usual junk21:52
RST38hToo many interests.21:52
AstralStormhere, they bought UMTS for a lot of PLN21:52
AstralStormit was expected to be used... sells fairly mediocre for now21:52
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AstralStormbut is on the increase21:52
RST38hWhat are data rates?21:52
AstralStormup to 7.2Mb HSDPA21:53
AstralStormbut usually 2.4 is more like it21:53
AstralStormand not too many modems can do even that21:53
AstralStormso you get 1.sth Mb21:54
AstralStormthere's no HSUPA yet21:54
AstralStormso 384 kbps upload21:54
RST38hwhat are the prices though?21:54
AstralStorm30 Euro for 6GB flatrate + wifi hotspots of Orange21:54
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RST38hUrgh...No wonder it is not being used much21:55
AstralStorm(there's also a tiny one at half the price, 1GB no hotspots)21:55
AstralStorm(and more expensive prepaid one)21:55
RST38his there ome price per MB?21:55
AstralStormfor prepaid, yes21:55
AstralStormfor postpaid, after the limit, you get bandwidth-cut21:56
AstralStormand there's also standard cell-phone data rate which is prohibitively expensive21:56
RST38hThe e30 rate also sounds expensive21:56
AstralStorm0.07 ec / 100 KB is the standard (or so, it's 0.25 pln)21:57
AstralStorm0.07 Euro that it21:57
AstralStorm7 ec21:57
AstralStormprepaid is 0.03 PLN / 100 kb21:57
RST38hthat is rur24.5/MB21:57
AstralStormpostpaid I'd have to calc21:58
RST38hprepaid is still rur10.5/mb21:58
AstralStormbut it depends on usage21:58
AstralStormpostpaid is actually cheaper than all of these21:58
AstralStormand by a wide margin21:59
RST38hyes but you are required to pay e30 :)21:59
AstralStormthe 30 Euro one amounts to 366 MB prepaid21:59
AstralStormand the 15 Euro one to 100 MB21:59
AstralStormor so21:59
RST38he15 sounds more realistic really22:00
AstralStormyes, but it's 1GB of transfer22:00
RST38hnobody is going to download movies over it anyway22:00
AstralStormenough for small data, but any actual usage will go over the limit22:00
RST38hand 1GB/month is sufficient for web browsing, chat, ssh, etc22:00
AstralStormwhy not? it's very fast :P22:00
AstralStormit's not sufficient for web browsing22:00
RST38hsmall screens, small storage, slow cpus, and it is probably not very fast when trasferring a 250MB movie22:00
AstralStormI grab 40-50 MB/day in web use22:00
AstralStormso, it's not that much22:01
RST38hAStorm: I grab <300MB/month :)22:01
AstralStormmultiply by 31 :>22:01
AstralStormI counted some light downloads22:01
AstralStormlike a PDF here, a larger image there22:01
AstralStormthat was the average excluding yt and large downloads22:02
RST38hbtw, I have all ads disabled22:02
AstralStormads don't eat that much, I checked22:02
AstralStormone ad eats like 10-30 KB22:02
AstralStormif flash, it eats 300 KB, so disable that22:02
mariorzanyone recommend a cheap site selling the n810w?22:03
AstralStorman average web site grabs 150 KB22:03
RST38hmariorz: froogle.com22:03
RST38hAStorm: yes but you probably visit same sites anyway?22:03
AstralStormbut the most of the cost is not images22:04
AstralStormand n8x0 doesn't cache these well for some reason22:04
AstralStorm(maybe because mmc card is so slow?)22:04
mariorzwhat should i searh for? "nokia n810w"?22:04
AstralStorm(or sd card)22:04
AstralStormmariorz: nokia n810 wimax22:04
mariorzahh, thanks22:04
AstralStormsome idiots sell it for $1000...22:05
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AstralStormit'd have to be gold-plated or have some excellent gps receiver, spare batteries, car charger, mount, all whizbang22:06
AstralStormto be worth anywhere near that amount22:06
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AstralStormmedian would be $45022:06
MangoFusiongold plated....hmm\22:06
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AstralStormRST38h: there's a certain prepaid that is competitive22:11
AstralStormit costs $19 for 1GB22:11
AstralStormuhm, 20 PLN22:11
AstralStormwhich means 6 GB cost the same 30 Euro22:12
AstralStormbut you can grab less :)22:12
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AstralStormPlay is running this stunt22:12
AstralStormso, if you only need like 1GB/mo, it will save you a lot of cash22:13
AstralStormunlike Orange's post-paid, it scales linearly (post-paid 12 GB costs 150 PLN, in comparison)22:15
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RST38hAStorm: Am I correct to assume that the average white-collar salary is e1000..e2500/month ?22:18
AstralStormcountry median is 2300 PLN/mo22:19
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AstralStormwhite collar is too diverse to specify22:19
AstralStormthey start from lowly teachers to very well-paid executives22:20
AstralStormand analysts22:20
AstralStormteachers earn under the average (excluding the top of their career)22:20
RST38hI mean computer programmers, low-to-middle level management, advertising guys, etc22:20
AstralStormit depends where, but in the capital, I'd expect 5000 PLN22:20
AstralStormjust shy of 2000 Euro22:21
AstralStormand that is a very well-paid job22:21
AstralStormas you can see, 2x average22:21
RST38hSo, e30 just for the data (given that you already have home connection) is too much, right?22:21
AstralStormit is a lot, but not really too much22:21
AstralStormfast net connections cost similar amount22:22
RST38hbtw does it include 3g voice? =)22:22
AstralStormand aren't mobile22:22
AstralStorm3g voice is the default now :P22:22
AstralStormif the phone supports 3G, it is used22:22
RST38hso e30/mo buys you voice *and* 6GB data?22:22
AstralStormas it's less expensive for the operator22:22
AstralStormnot exactly22:22
AstralStorm30/mo buys you 6GB and some 50-60 PLN refund on voice22:22
AstralStormso you get half of 110 PLN back22:23
RST38hso the total cell phone bill comes to something like e50?22:23
AstralStormuhm, no22:23
AstralStormit is at least 25 PLN postpaid flatrate22:23
AstralStormbut all that flatrate goes into call22:24
AstralStormso you may call up to 75 PLN of calls22:24
AstralStormw/o incurring costs22:24
AstralStormnot really22:24
AstralStormit means if you don't call, you won't gain22:24
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AstralStormif you do, then you may call more :P22:24
RST38hno but here if I do not call I do not pay anything, same for the data22:24
AstralStormon flatrate, here you pay the baseline flatrate at the very least22:25
RST38hand the data is something like e0.11/MB22:25
AstralStormoh, normal price!22:25
RST38hI literally spend <e10/mo on data (of coure it is plain GPRS but who cares as long as Google Reader works)22:25
AstralStormgood for you22:26
AstralStormI will use that connection for normal work though22:26
AstralStormso you see how it would soon pass above 2 GB22:26
RST38hyea, for normal usage case I would hit ~300-500MB by browsing etc22:27
AstralStormthis means I'm actually not having any unlimited broadband22:27
RST38hwell, my landline connection also has an 11GB cap for out-of-network traffic but I never hit it22:27
AstralStorm(except if I sit by their wifi AP :> this is included and unlimited up-to-11 Mbit22:27
RST38hWhatever intellectual property (tm) I need to steal is already inside the local network22:27
AstralStormyes, that is good22:27
AstralStormI don't steal IP, no need for that22:28
AstralStormMSDNAA is good ;P22:28
RST38hWell, I sometimes do watch a movie or two22:28
AstralStormthat *I* don't have to download ;P22:28
AstralStormor even if, I won't dl more than a few a month22:28
RST38hAside from that, no much use: I do not do 3d gaming, etc22:28
AstralStormand HD quality is lost anyway on my laptop, so... :P22:29
AstralStorm(1280x800 is HD, but then... no reason why I can't watch the movie in DVD quality)22:29
RST38h1280x800 I can watch on TV, if my media PC does not choke on it of course22:30
AstralStormanyway, that data plan is excellent and will suffice for all my work22:31
AstralStormI had 512/128 limited to 5G once22:31
RST38hIf it acts as you landline then indeed22:31
AstralStormand it worked well22:31
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AstralStorm(that was crummy cable - but it was half the price ;> )22:31
RST38he30..e50 isn't much money if it covers ALL connectivity needs22:31
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AstralStormwell, you can get landline for E30 of 4Mbit/1Mbit, cable22:32
AstralStormbut it can't reach here22:32
AstralStormunlimited, 3 IPs22:32
* RST38h pays around $15 for 100Mbaud bidirectional22:33
AstralStormmaybe I should learn Russian22:33
RST38hOuter world is connected to it via 4Mbaud though22:33
AstralStormso it's the same :)22:33
AstralStormalthough much cheaper22:33
RST38hif I have to go outside then yes but all the heavy IP crap is already sucked in =)22:33
RST38hThey won't give me dedicated IP unless I run VPN though, so it is all behind NAT22:34
AstralStormacademic link? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)22:34
RST38hno, the usual stuff, handled by Golden Telecom I think22:34
AstralStormah, it's Russia again22:35
AstralStormno IP is safe there22:35
RST38hit is just that the city itself has been wired optically for years now22:35
AstralStormoh, that kind of MAN would be very nice to have22:35
AstralStormnothing like it here22:35
RST38hnot every spot, but most22:35
AstralStormthey are thinking about building such a MAN on WiMax22:35
AstralStormbut I suspect 4G will come first22:35
RST38h2-3 WiMax installaitons here as well22:35
RST38hNone mobile though, AFAIK22:36
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AstralStormRST38h: as to that post-paid - earlier you could grab a cellphone with a very tiny baseline voice postpaid rate22:36
AstralStormlike 5 PLN22:37
AstralStormnot now anymore it seems22:37
RST38hThat is how it seems to work in .LT22:37
AstralStormI pay 35 mine22:37
RST38hHere too - a SIM card costs you around $7 and this money goes directly onto your account22:37
AstralStormmaybe I'll switch to 25 later22:37
AstralStormafter a year22:37
RST38hThe only difference is that they require your passport here22:38
AstralStormit's the same here ,that base rate goes to your account22:38
RST38hIn .LT you can buy SIM card at the supermarket register22:38
AstralStormthey require a passport, drivers licence or identity card22:38
AstralStormand a way of proving you can pay22:38
RST38hNothing like that here - if you can't pay, the phone goes dormant =)22:39
AstralStormcan be: gas bill, bank account <list?>, media bill, such22:39
qwerty12_N800uk ftw22:39
AstralStormhere too, but that's needed if you get a subsidized phone22:39
AstralStormnot if you pay fully for the phone22:39
RST38hNo subsidized phones here, afaik22:40
kkrustyqwerty12_N800: you use tmobile?22:40
AstralStormqwerty12_N800: we have that here too, like Orange Mix22:40
RST38hAnd every blonde on the subway has an iPhone now :)22:40
RST38h(it was N95 before)22:40
AstralStormbut you can't get that data flatrate with it22:40
qwerty12_N800kkrusty, yeah, was on orange before22:40
AstralStormyou can get data prepaid though22:40
RST38hqwerty: Looks ok except for SMS rates, but I guess they do not have specials?22:41
RST38hlike "3 family member numbers at 5p/minute rate"?22:41
qwerty12_N800RST38h, their sms rates are brilliant. one of their plans has 3p texts22:42
AstralStorm3p... nice22:42
AstralStormbut mine is the equivalent in gr (0.01 PLN)22:42
RST38hqwerty: That is where it is important to remember that there are ICQ clients for mobiles ;)22:42
AstralStormand it also takes from base rate :)22:42
RST38hqwerty: And those are charged per megabyte ;)22:43
AstralStormand I get a bunch of free texts too22:43
orificeis mplayer's speed nominally slow for a standard def xvid file ?22:43
AstralStormor can buy a pack of discounted texts22:43
* RST38h never texts: it is easier to either run ICQ or login via SSH and use IRC22:43
qwerty12_N800RST38h, people i know don't use icq (doubt they have heard of it either) but you can bet they are texting all the time22:44
RST38horifice: yes22:44
AstralStormorifice: no, it's ok if the resolution isn't too high22:44
AstralStorm600x380 will work ok22:44
orificeno 640x480 though ?22:44
AstralStormassuming you don't use some advanced features like qpel22:44
AstralStorm640x388 max afaicr22:44
RST38hqwerty: Bad habit, start proselytizing now!22:44
AstralStormbut that's due to LCD driver22:44
orificeI was just going to ask what the bottle neck is22:44
AstralStormthe CPU use is ok even at 700-something22:45
RST38horifice: CPU, display subsystem22:45
qwerty12_N800RST38h, i don't use icq either, irc & msn for me :p22:45
AstralStormCPU is usually powerful enough for anything except H.32422:45
RST38hAStorm: If CPU is missing frames (and it does) it is not ok :(22:45
RST38hqwerty: move them to msn then22:45
AstralStormit very rarely does, yes, at DVD resolution22:45
RST38hirc is knda hardcore22:45
AstralStormon high-motion22:45
qwerty12_N800AstralStorm, doesn't help that it's connected with low speed serial interface too :(22:46
RST38hdunno, mises frames terribly on my tablet22:46
AstralStormyes, LCD driver is slow :)22:46
AstralStormmine doesn't22:46
AstralStormbut it depends on the movie22:46
RST38htime to upload new VGB to extras22:46
AstralStormthere's also the problem that SD cards / MMC chip aren't fast22:46
qwerty12_N800RST38h, actually, people on 3 (main 3g network here) get free msn22:46
AstralStormyou can get up to 1 MB/s22:46
AstralStormfrom SD card22:47
RST38hqwerty: they also get packet filtering then?22:47
BugBluegpsd on maemo 4.1 doesn't report M=2 anymore22:47
AstralStormM=2? what is that?22:47
BugBlue2 = good for latitude/longitude22:47
qwerty12_N800RST38h, probably, but it's free, who complains? :p22:47
BugBlue3 = good for altitude/climb too22:47
AstralStormuhm, it does report that22:47
AstralStormI checked, it sometimes grabs a 2D fix22:48
RST38hqwerty: No, if they get packet filtering and can't freely ue TCP/IP apps, then I would care22:48
BugBluenot via gps_saver22:48
AstralStormhmm, maybe there not22:48
AstralStormthat'd be a bug22:48
BugBluelet's replace the new gpsd with the old one22:48
AstralStorm(and see stuff break?)22:48
BugBlueI have 2 N810's here almost at the same place22:48
AstralStormno, diablo slightly improved lock speeds22:48
BugBlueAstralStorm: maybe, maybe not...22:48
AstralStormon cold fix22:48
AstralStormon hot fix, a lot :)22:49
BugBluea little bit...22:49
RST38hIf you have previous data, AGPS will lock about 3 times faster for me22:49
BugBluebut I don't worry about that22:49
AstralStormRST38h: AGPS is nonexistent here22:49
qwerty12_N800BugBlue, (ouch). build chinook's osso-gpsd in diablo sdk at least22:49
BugBlueAGPS is real faster, but I have gps on 24/722:49
BugBlueqwerty12_N800: we'll see :P22:49
RST38hAStorm: Hehe, it is not THAT agps :)22:49
AstralStormah, you mean that one where ephemeris is stored?22:49
RST38hAStorm: Tablet AGPS is not the same as the real AGPS22:49
AstralStormyes, that's the main stuff22:49
AstralStormthat's why hot fixes are so fast now22:50
RST38hAStorm: Yes, this one lets you pinpoint your location on the map and loads metadata off a web server22:50
AstralStorm(and some cold too, if ephemeris is fresh)22:50
AstralStormRST38h: how?!22:50
AstralStormtell me, how to do that22:50
RST38hAStorm: You did not know? :)22:50
AstralStormas I mentioned, I have a plan22:50
BugBlueNokia-N810-50-2:~# scp /usr/sbin/gpsd root@
RST38hAStorm: Ok, go to app manager and install AGPS beta app22:50
BugBluelet's see what happens..22:50
AstralStormRST38h: mhm, thanks!22:50
qwerty12_N800BugBlue, btw, did you find my aircrack-ng build? :)22:50
BugBlueqwerty12_N800: I didn't yet.. I didn't look for aircrack-ng yet...22:51
RST38hAStorm: then run it and try finding your location there (good to know your lat lon beforehand though)22:51
BugBluewhere did you hide it?22:51
RST38hAStorm: Save location, run Mapper, see what happens22:51
AstralStormRST38h: how precise I have to be with lat/lon?22:51
qwerty12_N800BugBlue, hehe,
AstralStormbecause I know +/- 10 meters22:51
AstralStorm(can just point it on map and copy)22:52
RST38hAStorm: anything in ~100km circle will do22:52
AstralStormalso, why it's not integrated with mapper yet?22:52
RST38hIt does not have to be22:52
AstralStormit could ask you to pick approx. location22:52
RST38hThis little app simply stores location somewhere in config files22:52
AstralStormbut what if location changes more than 100 km?22:53
RST38hAnd Diablo GPSD will use it AND your network connection to fetch ephemeris etc22:53
RST38hAStorm: It will keep track of your location22:53
AstralStormif the gps is off too?22:53
AstralStormimpossible ;P22:53
RST38hnot in that case22:53
RST38hso let us hope you do not travel that far often22:53
AstralStormyes, that's why it'd be nice to have some support in mapper22:53
AstralStormI do, by a train22:54
l7hrm, bluetooth keyboard support seems to be much better in Diablo22:54
AstralStormnot too often though22:54
RST38hmapper will make use of it22:54
AstralStormI mean, some support for picking that location22:54
RST38hActually, I think even 300km will do the job but you are free to experiment22:54
l7i remember in chinook it would type like thisssss22:54
RST38hl7: Feels exactly the same to me22:54
AstralStormlike, "point somewhere estimated where you are"22:54
RST38hstill slow, laggy, and repeats letters22:54
AstralStormand then it feeds the data to AGPSd22:54
RST38hAStorm: That is what that AGPS app is for22:54
BugBlueoke now I have to wait for a GPS fix, a real one...22:54
RST38hAStorm: That is exactly what it does22:55
l7RST38h: it still repeats letters for you?22:55
AstralStormRST38h: but it doesn't show you the map, does it?22:55
RST38hAStorm: It does22:55
RST38hinstall and try it22:55
l7i guess i get it a little now, but much less22:55
* RST38h would actually get this information from the clock app but Nokia decided differently22:55
RST38hl7: yep22:55
l7is there a way to slow the repeat rate?22:55
RST38hthat is kbd dependent I think22:56
l7RST38h: which keyboard do you have?22:56
BugBlueAstralStorm: the problem it seems to have is that it doesn't feed the 2D (less accurate but much often updated) data if you also have 3D data (takes more time to compute and it's that much updated)22:56
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l7RST38h: the thin aluminum one?22:56
AstralStormBugBlue: ahha!22:56
AstralStormthat's a bug, report please22:56
l7i was thinking of getting that one to use with my tablet, perhaps i shouldn't then22:56
BugBlueI replaced the gps_saver with the old version, doesn't help.. I replaced the gps driver, didn't fix it22:56
BugBluenot I hope that replacing gpsd would fix it22:56
AstralStormit might22:57
BugBluethan it makes sense to do diff, fix it and post a patch22:57
AstralStormRST38h: the app is in maemo-devel?22:57
RST38hAStorm: should be in plain extras22:57
RST38hlemme check22:57
BugBlueAstralStorm: but I can tell if I get a fix in a few minutes...22:57
AstralStormBugBlue: :)22:58
BugBlue(however maybe I should put my N810 outside instead before the window, that would speed things up, except my beer drinking...)22:58
RST38happ name is agps-ui22:58
BugBluemmm... faster code fix or more beer...22:58
AstralStormBugBlue: I recommend telling Maemo Bugs about that22:58
AstralStormthey should promptly fix it22:58
AstralStormbtw, someone could rebuild xournal22:59
BugBlueAstralStorm: I'd rather search the problem first.. maybe it's some ignorant setting from me somewhere...22:59
AstralStormas the version in extras is ubercrashy22:59
RST38hthe devel version of xournal is crashy22:59
RST38hthe extras version is fine22:59
AstralStormyes yes22:59
AstralStormextras is -chinook one?22:59
AstralStormI'll check22:59
RST38hthe devel version is some experimental shitpile22:59
AstralStormit should be axed then22:59
AstralStormknown broken22:59
RST38hit is devel, whaddayawant?22:59
AstralStormno broken stuff :)23:00
AstralStormit's as simple as rm23:00
AstralStormso, this AGPS is like QuickGPSFix of TomTom :)23:01
RST38hBetter bug the author to finish it23:01
AstralStormexcellent thing23:01
AstralStormRST38h: that too23:01
AstralStormbut he should axe the non-working version as well23:01
AstralStormthis A-GPS map has too large scale23:02
AstralStormvery hard to pick Poland ;P23:02
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AstralStormRST38h: will the mapper now use it if it's set to Bluetooth? :)23:03
RST38hAStorm: with external gps? no :)23:04
RST38hthe map sucks, I know, go by lat lon23:04
RST38hAs you already set up your city in the clock settings, they could just initialize agps with that for starters23:05
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AstralStormseems it does, I got 9 sats in field23:05
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BugBlueI accidently deleted about 1.000.000 records of gps log :P23:12
BugBluein my database23:12
BugBlue... thank god for backups ...23:12
RST38hOk, whoever wants the hot new version of VGB, it is at
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RST38hWill appear in the Extras on Monday, if Cthulhu is merciful23:13
qwerty12_N800thanks, need it to play cokemon :)23:13
RST38hThis is VGB (not VGBA) so your cokemon will be somewhat oldskool23:14
AstralStormalmost violating two trademarks at once... brilliant23:14
qwerty12_N800RST38h, i know but the jokes still get me :/23:14
RST38htwo trademark violations and a reference to controlled substance23:15
RST38hare you sure this is still safe in the UK? =)23:15
AstralStormok, now I get much better signal from sats, almost got 2D fix now23:16
qwerty12_N800i've probably revealed worse on this channel :p23:16
AstralStormgood thing23:16
AstralStorm(and it's a first time cold fix)23:16
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RST38hdon't tell me you are outside, in October, at 23:1823:17
AstralStormbut that gpsd bug indeed is visible :>23:17
RST38hand using irc23:17
AstralStormRST38h: no, it's by the window23:17
AstralStormbehind it even23:17
RST38hthat's probably suboptimal...23:17
AstralStormbut it means this thing is golden23:17
RST38hyea, there is some golden plating on that TI turd now...23:18
RST38hwhat is the gpsd bug btw?23:18
AstralStormnot on TI23:18
RST38hin plain english?23:18
AstralStormRST38h: that it doesn't send 2D data it can get from TI chip much more often than 3D data23:18
RST38hThe 5300 GPS chip in the tablets is TI23:18
AstralStormit did before23:18
RST38hOh, it ignores 2D fixes?23:19
AstralStormit seems23:19
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AstralStormI mean, it makes use of them, sends them if no 3D fix is available23:19
AstralStormbut not otherwise23:19
RST38hisn't that ok?23:19
AstralStormbecause 2D fix send rate is higher23:19
AstralStormthis means the 2D fix is less precise now than before23:20
RST38hah, so if there are 2d fix changes between 3d fixes, they are ignored?23:20
RST38hwell, it is less problematic than I tought...23:20
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AstralStormstill bad :)23:21
AstralStormaffects accuracy23:21
AstralStormanyway, seems like I can only grab 2 sats out of this window ;P23:21
RST38hnotice that it is not the window you have to worry about but the walls on all the other sides :)23:21
RST38hthere is 75% chance the other satellites are there somewhere23:22
AstralStormI checked23:22
AstralStormthey are too much above me23:22
BugBlueAstralStorm: my problem is that with the old data I can do this: and the new looks like:
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AstralStormI get about 45 degree view horizontal, 60 vertical23:23
BugBluemm old gps_saver, old gpsd, old gpsdriver... problem not solved23:23
AstralStormBugBlue: report it please, I can't fix it :)23:23
BugBlueAstralStorm: I know..23:23
AstralStormwrong, 90 degree horizontal, 120 degree vertical23:24
AstralStormso, if I rotate the receiver some, I should catch another sat23:25
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AstralStormblah, why didn't nokia expose that GPS antenna... I could attach something better23:26
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AstralStormthere is an actual mini-something pin socket inside23:27
AstralStormso you could have an external antenna23:27
AstralStorm(for wifi too)23:28
BugBlue <-- that one?23:29
AstralStormbetter than 3 cm strip of gold23:29
AstralStormyes, that one23:29
BugBluethat's a nice standard... you really do have antennas for it :D23:30
BugBlueRP-SMA connectors are widely used by Wi-Fi equipment manufacturers to comply with specific local regulations, e.g. the FCC, which are designed to make it difficult for consumers to connect antennas with gain and thereby breach compliance23:31
BugBlueI do like the FCC23:31
AstralStormit doesn't matter for GPS23:32
AstralStormall it needs is a large antenna with wide sight23:32
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AstralStormselectivity doesn't have to be too high23:33
RST38hLike your body for example...23:33
AstralStormno, body can't receive these frequencies23:33
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AstralStormthey're absorbed by water23:33
AstralStormor at least distorted23:33
RST38hyou have got skin and whatever is inside skin23:34
AstralStormthat's why cloudy sky isn't good ;P23:34
AstralStormwhich is 80% water?23:34
RST38hin this case we are talking about skin surface only23:34
AstralStormnot really23:34
RST38hwell it depends on how wet your skin is23:34
AstralStormit doesn't conduct well anyway23:34
RST38hcheck out cases where people get hit by lightning23:34
AstralStormwet will screen GPS signal and not conduct23:35
RST38hlightning usually goes through skin only23:35
AstralStormok, now it has 6 sats :>23:35
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AstralStormsignal levels are just above 20 though23:36
AstralStormwhich is weak23:36
AstralStormit should grab fix, now has 7 sats23:36
AstralStormblah, I should just buy a good GPS receiver23:38
AstralStormany recommendations? (small size and long battery life are much appreciated)23:39
BugBlueI once bought the cheapest once..23:39
BugBluenot even SIRF323:39
BugBlueFOUND IT!23:39
BugBlueit's libgps23:39
AstralStormok, excellent23:40
AstralStormnow, report ASAP :)23:40
BugBluehang on23:40
BugBlueI do want to move the other software back first23:40
BugBlueto be 100% sure23:40
RST38hAStorm: I have got a tiny Holux23:40
RST38hSIRFIII based, works.23:40
AstralStormare MTK recvs good?23:40
RST38hBut don't expect it to work inside buildings23:40
RST38hMTK is cheap and widepread right now23:40
RST38hSome say it is better than SIRF but I would stay with SIRF23:40
RST38hJust because for MTK it is just one direction (they produce DVD, MP3, etc chips) while SIRF is GPS specific23:41
BugBluerebooting my N810 for the Xth time... :D23:41
AstralStormRST38h: 20h battery life sure is sexy23:42
AstralStormit would be even better if that recv supported USB charging23:42
AstralStormmy car has ports23:42
RST38hHolux 240 supports USB charging23:42
AstralStormor even 32hr :)23:44
AstralStorm12h, but at what size... excellent sensitivity too :>23:44
RST38hlooks bigger than Holux23:46
RST38hbut more versatile23:46
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AstralStormbigger than this one?23:53
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