IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2008-10-25

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TokyoDan	Does anybody know what shells are used in the normal and root accounts of N810 running Diablo and where are the environment variables such as $PATH set?	00:45
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RST38h	busybox	00:49
woglinde	env	00:50
woglinde	ist your friend	00:50
woglinde	for question2	00:50
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ShadowJK_	where not what	00:51
ShadowJK_	grep PATH in all of /etc might be more helpful for figuring out #2	00:51
qwerty12_N800	it also depends on the method you are using to get root wrt environment variables	00:51
woglinde	oh sorry	00:51
woglinde	misunderstood the question	00:52
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TokyoDan	Thanks. I'm just trying to run an executable python script in my local directory /home/user/MyDocs/Hello.py.	00:56
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TokyoDan	But I get command not found. I added /home/user/MyDocs to /etc/profile $PATH but that had no effect.	00:57
mgedmin	did you reboot?	00:57
mgedmin	could be some other script overrides the PATH setting later	00:58
mgedmin	I set my $PATH in ~/.ashrc	00:58
mgedmin	or was that ~/.profile?	00:58
mgedmin	one of those	00:58
TokyoDan	no, just restarted the terminal window and did a echo $PATH to see if the directory was added and it was.	00:58
mgedmin	good	00:59
TokyoDan	it was in /etc/profile	00:59
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bef0rd	Hi, am I the only one that is annoyed to have to accept twice a file when receiving it through bluetooth?	01:11
mgedmin	didn't notice that	01:15
mgedmin	but I'm annoyed that I have to uncheck the 'open file' checkbox when accepting a file over bluetooth	01:15
mgedmin	and it's tiny and not thumb-friendly	01:15
bef0rd	yeah, that too	01:16
bef0rd	it should probably store/load the latest selected option	01:16
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l7	ah, sftp is cool	02:36
l7	being able to sftp in and drop stuff off on my n800 remotely :)	02:36
l7	let's see an ipod do that!	02:37
Mousey	l7 it can	02:37
Mousey	not that i'd want to	02:37
l7	with jailbreak?	02:38
Mousey	who doesn't jailbreak a iphone/ipod touch?	02:38
l7	heh	02:38
Mousey	also, you can't put dual 32gb SDHC cards in a ipod	02:38
l7	yup	02:38
Mousey	i want an n800 now	02:38
Mousey	for external storage for my n810 ^_^	02:39
l7	heh	02:39
Mousey	at least there are 16gb microSD cards now	02:39
l7	can you still buy an iphone w/o activating it these days?	02:39
l7	16gb microsds seem rather pricey	02:39
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Bilaw	Hello, all!	02:40
l7	hiya	02:40
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hellwolf	In maemo, I want to use some python script, it told me "ImportError: No module named py_compile"	02:43
hellwolf	What am I missing	02:43
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hellwolf	Ok, I install python-dev, it's ok now	02:51
Bilaw	Silly question of the day: has anyone tried to install another (distribution) on their tablet, say Ångström, or Ubuntu MID, or anything else?	02:55
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l7	hrm, can't say i have	03:01
l7	ah editing /etc/systemui/systemui.xml to enable reboot is a great tool	03:01
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l7	uh oh, what's this device mode prompt?	03:05
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johnx	Bilaw, of course. There is some preliminery support in Angstrom. Also check out Deblet and mojo.handhelds.org (ubuntu)	03:15
lcuk	would "instant LOL cat creator" be a killer app?	03:16
johnx	does it come with a cat?	03:17
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lcuk	im just thinking of random little apps for the camera :)	03:17
Bilaw	cheers, johnx!	03:17
l7	heh	03:17
l7	man, mplayer's ability to play flvs from the net never ceases to impress me	03:18
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mgedmin	lcuk: good idea!	03:33
mgedmin	would work better on a n800 with its swivel camera	03:34
mgedmin	or even better on a n900 with a non-crappy camera	03:34
mgedmin	(1) snap a picture (2) type a caption (3) upload to flickr	03:34
Xamusk	can someone help me try to make my n800 grab data from a serial gps? (garmin etrex legend)	03:34
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mgedmin	me needs to get a cat	03:34
lcuk	mgedmin, :) keep the info as individual pieces and more can be done with it as discovered	03:35
Xamusk	I installed the usbserial and pl2303 drivers and the usb-serial cable seems to be working	03:35
Xamusk	but maemo-mapper isn't getting anywhere	03:35
mgedmin	could it be a protocol issue?	03:36
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mgedmin	if you 'cat /dev/ttyUSB42' in an xterm, do you see data from the GPS?	03:36
Xamusk	no	03:36
mgedmin	does the data look like text, or binary?	03:36
Xamusk	no data	03:36
Xamusk	maybe my GPS isn't working properly?	03:37
mgedmin	dunno	03:37
mgedmin	never had a serial gps	03:37
mgedmin	maybe you need to send some command to it to wake it up	03:37
mgedmin	otoh the serial cable has a couple of lines for detecting that the other end is listening	03:38
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Xamusk	I don't know if this is valid considering I'm using usb-serial	03:40
Xamusk	but anyway it seems my gps is in a semi-locked state and I can't get it out of it	03:41
Xamusk	it's not responding to button presses :( only to turn it on and then it gets to satellite screen... it shows satellites (not as much as I'd like) but won't respond to buttons	03:42
Xamusk	maybe I didn't use it for too long :(	03:43
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GeneralAntilles	Please, please, somebody kick this guy's ass: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24205&page=10	05:03
l7	eh?	05:04
johnx	what lib is he talking about?	05:04
johnx	can someone just fix it and push it?	05:05
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GeneralAntilles	johnx, probably.	05:07
GeneralAntilles	He's kind of an idiot, though.	05:07
johnx	don't let him get to you	05:08
GeneralAntilles	It's irritating when he's spreading misinformation to newbies.	05:08
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l7	http://www.zdez.org/ speaks of his personality somewhat	05:10
l7	who formats their entire site in <h2>?	05:10
GeneralAntilles	A person who files bugs like this: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3560	05:11
l7	to his credit, he didn't use all caps for everything	05:12
GeneralAntilles	Bizarre: http://tabletschool.blogspot.com/2008/10/future-of-nokia-maemo-and-internet.html	05:12
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l7	hmm, nokia netbooks?	05:15
GeneralAntilles	The whole point of the tablets is that they're pocketable devices that can do a whole lot more than some smartphone.	05:16
l7	yeah, i don't see the point of turning it into a netbook	05:16
l7	that seems to defeat the purpose of the maemo platform, touch screen technology, etc.	05:17
ShadowJK_	I hope maemo is nokia's secret project to eventually throw out s60	05:17
l7	why wouldn't people just by an eee pc instead?	05:18
johnx	maemo on a non-touchscreen hi-res device would be kind of grim	05:18
l7	why would you want to compete in the netbook market anyway with so much competition and such thin margins?	05:19
johnx	an ARM netbook might give you more margin to play with	05:19
l7	battery life?	05:19
l7	still it seems like the netbook form factor has plenty of OSes	05:20
johnx	waaaay too many linux distros already, yes	05:20
l7	ubuntu's netbook remix looks pretty cool	05:20
ShadowJK_	nobody really wants battery life anyway	05:20
johnx	nobody buys based on battery life	05:21
johnx	later on they find out they need it though :)	05:21
l7	eh, decent battery life with good portability would be good	05:21
l7	heh	05:21
ShadowJK_	I mean, when centrino came everybody was hyped about battery life, but then they bought the ones with crippled batteries anyway	05:21
johnx	well, we buy based on battery life, but we don't count	05:21
l7	the netbooks are all about portability for most people	05:21
ShadowJK_	And now with atom everybody is hyped about battery life, but still most of them sold are the ones with yet weaker batteries, lasting the "standard" 2.5 hours...	05:21
l7	ew	05:22
l7	i guess it depends on your usage patterns	05:22
ShadowJK_	yeah	05:22
* mgedmin thinks compiz is cooler than ubuntu's netbook remix		05:22
l7	if you take it home and charge it every night it should be fine	05:22
l7	why do you guys want so much battery life anyway?	05:22
ShadowJK_	Ideally from a cellphone I'd want it to last 8-12 hours on a charge. Mine doesn't ;p	05:22
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ShadowJK_	I'd want something similar from a tablet and a laptop probably	05:23
ShadowJK_	I think N810 gets close...	05:24
ShadowJK_	in my pseudobenchmark of leaving things streaming 192kbit/s shoutcast	05:24
l7	how long does it last on that stream?	05:27
ShadowJK_	dunno, I fell asleep	05:30
ShadowJK_	somewhere between 4 and 6 hours I think	05:30
ShadowJK_	my phone does 2-3 hours	05:30
l7	that's pretty good	05:31
l7	the battery life of these tablets seems longer than just about any other comparable device	05:31
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ShadowJK_	Yeah	05:33
l7	hmm, i wonder if i should get an n810	05:34
l7	i really want that keyboard :)	05:34
Xamusk	I wish my N800 had more battery life... it suck a LOT compared to Palms or iPaqs	05:35
ds3	eh?	05:35
Xamusk	though I understand the limitations of those	05:35
ds3	I can run my Treo650 flat and still have tons of battery life on the N800	05:36
l7	how's the n800's battery life compare to the n810?	05:36
GeneralAntilles	Exactly the same.	05:36
l7	hmm interesting	05:36
l7	i guess the addition of GPS circuitry doesn't draw much	05:37
GeneralAntilles	Only if it's on.	05:37
Xamusk	I have a lended iPaq that keeps working for weeks after I charged it in sleep mode, even though the battery is probably rubbish (for an old model that was disabled for too long)	05:38
l7	is there a program that will tell you how healthy your battery is?	05:38
Xamusk	by the way, I'm trying to make a serial gps work with my N800, but I'm not getting it right	05:38
GeneralAntilles	Sadly, no, l7.	05:39
l7	ah well	05:39
l7	it always charges up to 10 hours idle time	05:39
l7	but it doesn't seem like the same 10 hours it used to last	05:39
GeneralAntilles	All the data points are there	05:39
GeneralAntilles	somebody just has to figure out what they all mean and do the necessary calculations.	05:40
l7	oh	05:43
l7	is there a command line tool that will show them?	05:43
ShadowJK_	where's the data?	05:44
GeneralAntilles	retu	05:45
ShadowJK_	how do you get it out	05:46
GeneralAntilles	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/kcbatt/	05:47
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Xamusk	./gpsbabel -i garmin,get_posn -f /dev/ttyUSB0 -o kml -F garmin-data.kml	06:06
l7	weird, i found mplayer actually using more CPU to playback mp4 than osso-media	06:07
Xamusk	l7, maybe osso-media uses those "DSP instructions"	06:08
Xamusk	I can't connect to that frigging GPS!	06:09
Xamusk	what can I do with maemo-mapper to connect it?	06:09
johnx	so gpsbabel works on it?	06:09
Xamusk	johnx, yes	06:09
Xamusk	with the command above	06:09
johnx	hmm, maybe get gpsd to talk to it then have maemo mapper connect to gpsd?	06:10
Xamusk	I don't know if mapper uses something from gpsbabel or if it assumes the gps talks NMEA or something like that	06:10
Xamusk	johnx, I already tried it	06:10
Xamusk	johnx, I run gpsd in nondaemon mode, but it simply says nothing, and the mapper still doesn't find it	06:11
Xamusk	it keeps searching	06:11
johnx	I really don't know	06:11
GeneralAntilles	You need to initialize gpsd first.	06:13
GeneralAntilles	Which is why Maemo Mapper uses Bluetooth with no MAC.	06:13
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Xamusk	GeneralAntilles, I try to run it manually, but I get nowhere: gpsd -n -N -F /tmp/.gpsd_ctrl_sock /dev/ttyUSB0	06:14
Xamusk	running as root	06:14
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Xamusk	GeneralAntilles, I don't see how else I could "initialize" it	06:15
GeneralAntilles	maemobluetooth has to start it.	06:16
GeneralAntilles	I believe, anyway.	06:16
Xamusk	my gps is not bluetooth	06:16
GeneralAntilles	Nevermind	06:17
Xamusk	it's serial through a usb-serial cable	06:17
Xamusk	it's a configuration similar to this one: http://www.piku.org.uk/book/export/html/139	06:19
Xamusk	but I want it to work with mapper	06:20
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fiekia	maemo mapper can do routs?	06:25
johnx	as long as you have an inet connection	06:25
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l7	or openstreet data right?	06:31
johnx	I don't think maemo mapper can route from osm maps since it uses the bitmap osm maps	06:31
johnx	(someone correct me if things have changed)	06:31
l7	oh	06:32
l7	can any programs for the maemo handle routing offline?	06:32
johnx	the included "Map" program can (Wayfinfer Maps or somesuch)	06:33
l7	oh that thing	06:33
l7	i wonder if they have improved it since last year, i never touch it	06:33
johnx	yeah, I think it got updated since then	06:33
johnx	also, I think navit can use osm for routing	06:34
l7	i don't get it, is maemo giving us that commerical app for free?	06:34
GAN800	The app, not the routing.	06:34
l7	oh	06:34
l7	routing requires a subscription then?	06:35
johnx	if you're in the US, an app that can use TIGER maps should be able to do some limited routing IIUC	06:36
Xamusk	can't mapper use google maps for routing?	06:37
johnx	only with an inet connection	06:37
AstralStorm	hehe	06:37
AstralStorm	if OSM vector data is available directly...	06:37
AstralStorm	we could somewhat rewrite mapper with cairo to draw the vector part	06:37
l7	which app do you use to connec to TIGER maps?	06:37
AstralStorm	(or some better engine like AGG)	06:37
l7	connect	06:37
Xamusk	well, doesn't Nokia maps for symbian phones route offline?	06:38
AstralStorm	Xamusk: they have to get maps in vector form	06:38
johnx	Xamusk, yes, check your scrollback :P	06:38
AstralStorm	then, standard routing algorithms work	06:38
GAN800	AstralStorm, I'd like to see vector support on Maemo Mapper.	06:38
AstralStorm	well, as I said, just vectorize the bitmap piecewise for extra bonus	06:39
AstralStorm	Google could also provide vectorized maps, but then they wouldn't get all that query analysis bonus	06:39
Xamusk	I thought google maps did routing offline	06:40
AstralStorm	wrong!	06:40
Xamusk	maybe with javascript	06:40
AstralStorm	no, they do routing online	06:40
Xamusk	because I don't see much transfers when I change my route	06:40
AstralStorm	you send them point A, B, C... Z	06:40
GAN800	Maemo Mapper needs an overhaul to handle different map formats more gracefully	06:40
AstralStorm	and they do routing online	06:40
AstralStorm	mhm	06:40
AstralStorm	not an easy job	06:40
AstralStorm	and it needs better db format	06:41
GAN800	The talk on the lists was to rasterize vector maps on the fly to feed to Maemo Mapper. :/	06:41
AstralStorm	gdbm is notoriously heavy	06:41
AstralStorm	GAN800: WRONG!	06:41
AstralStorm	this is the wrong way to do it	06:41
AstralStorm	it's easier to vectorize raster maps usually	06:41
AstralStorm	and then, you can analyze them better	06:41
GAN800	Maybe we can talk Nokia into doing some of the grunt work for the Fremantle Stars	06:41
GAN800	AstralStorm, thus, the :/	06:42
AstralStorm	it is logical if they add route planning plugins	06:42
AstralStorm	then a plugin could be used to rasterize a vector map	06:42
ShadowJK_	Nokia maps for symbian atleast has the decency to try route offline first, and then asks you for permission to go ask the server :-)	06:42
AstralStorm	and provide routing data	06:42
AstralStorm	ShadowJK_: there's no offline routing in mapper. At all.	06:43
AstralStorm	so the point is moot	06:43
ShadowJK_	yes	06:43
ShadowJK_	But Xamusk asked about Nokia Maps	06:43
AstralStorm	but then, you might flag some plugins as "online"	06:43
AstralStorm	ahha	06:43
AstralStorm	there exists such an app for Maemo? I don't think so	06:44
ShadowJK_	no, does not	06:44
ShadowJK_	it's for S60	06:44
AstralStorm	yup	06:44
ShadowJK_	I wouldn't mind wayfinder connecting more frequently to internet to download all the speed cameras nearby :-)	06:44
AstralStorm	so, the work would be to make Mapper into just an UI	06:44
AstralStorm	for the Map and Routing plugins	06:45
Xamusk	I wouldn't like that	06:45
Xamusk	data plans around here are pretty expensive	06:45
AstralStorm	hehe, so they're here	06:45
AstralStorm	I'll be getting one flatrate anyway	06:45
AstralStorm	(110 PLN for 6 GB + wifi APs of that operator)	06:46
AstralStorm	pity they don't do GB scaling	06:46
AstralStorm	about 30 Euro	06:47
AstralStorm	maybe 25	06:47
AstralStorm	29 today	06:47
Xamusk	AstralStorm, here it's 1GB plan (5GB download limit) for what would be equivalent to 129 PLN	06:48
AstralStorm	ouch	06:48
Xamusk	(PLN estimates by google)	06:48
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AstralStorm	but then, that was the best flatrate of the three	06:49
AstralStorm	and there's the problem of not high salaries :)	06:50
AstralStorm	can't wait till voice and data will get unified	06:52
Xamusk	here the minimum wage by law (and thus what most of the population receives) is the equivalent of 573 PLN	06:52
Xamusk	so a data plan like that is pretty prohibitive	06:52
AstralStorm	poorer country...	06:53
AstralStorm	yes	06:53
* ShadowJK_ has 2mbit unlimited for 10€ per month :-)		06:53
AstralStorm	here the median is close to 1800 PLN	06:54
AstralStorm	ShadowJK_: you lucky guy	06:54
AstralStorm	I want that	06:54
ShadowJK_	the operators had price war	06:54
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AstralStorm	doesn't such a plan make phone calls mostly obsolete?	06:54
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AstralStorm	like, allowing to buy a really cheap VoIP	06:55
ShadowJK_	yep, same operator coincidentally offers VoIP service too, and provides instructions for how to make it work on the Nokia cellphones' built-in VoIP feature	06:55
AstralStorm	really, phone numbers should go away, instead we should get IPv6 linked to DNS	06:55
ShadowJK_	they used to have UMA but not anymore :/	06:55
AstralStorm	I mean, like, you could get addresses like <oldnumber>.call.yourisp.whatever	06:56
AstralStorm	with autocompletion, could be viable	06:56
AstralStorm	and then, normal names too :>	06:56
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AstralStorm	IP domination is the final phase of 3GPP project	06:57
ShadowJK_	I moved my parents' landline to VoIP, with a standalone VoIP phone. The old number still works for people calling with regular phones, but you can also put in number@sip.isp.fi and it works	06:57
l7	man, the LCARS theme is great	06:57
AstralStorm	yes, something like that	06:57
AstralStorm	but no need for @	06:57
AstralStorm	because each device (3GPP LTE) is required to have an IP	06:57
ShadowJK_	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network Essentially this means your phone can roam between WLAN and 3G/GSM :)	06:57
l7	i'm glad it's bugs are fixed	06:57
AstralStorm	then, either SIP will have to be firewalled off... or cell operators will have to compete	06:59
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AstralStorm	the first is automatic if NAT is required (IPv4 doesn't have enough space for all those cell phones)	07:00
ShadowJK_	My operator is giving public IPs still. It's kinda funny, I have 3 public IPs right now	07:00
AstralStorm	mine too	07:00
ShadowJK_	smtp might be firewalled but everything else is open	07:00
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AstralStorm	I want my IPv6	07:00
AstralStorm	they could send one too	07:01
AstralStorm	get an allocation, their system does support IPv6 (I have inside sources)	07:01
ShadowJK_	Nokia wants IPv6 :-)	07:01
ShadowJK_	It saves battery power	07:01
AstralStorm	every mobile device	07:01
AstralStorm	and if every device is to be seen on the network... then IPv6 is a must	07:02
AstralStorm	otherwise we'll drown in NATs	07:02
Xamusk	too bad nobody is really pushing for IPv6 hard enough	07:04
AstralStorm	cell ops will	07:04
oilinki	i suppose ipv6 will come only if the big network operators put different prices for ipv4 and ipv6.	07:04
AstralStorm	once 3GPP is finished	07:04
Xamusk	and even then, it would probably get us into some sort of IP monopoly anyway	07:04
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AstralStorm	IP monopoly? there is one already	07:05
orifice	is there a way I can retrieve wep keys off an n810 ?	07:05
AstralStorm	called IETF ;P	07:05
AstralStorm	orifice: monitor mode is supposed to somewhat work	07:05
oilinki	for example ipv6 traffic would be 20% cheaper. that might let the isps to think it further	07:05
orifice	not hacking wep keys or anything. Just the saved ones	07:05
orifice	When I upgraded to Diablo I lost all my saved wep keys	07:05
AstralStorm	ah, that... they're in gconf	07:05
orifice	ahh ok	07:06
orifice	thanks	07:06
AstralStorm	ipv6 "traffic" cannot be made "cheaper" globally	07:07
AstralStorm	it actually uses a tiny bit more bandwidth	07:07
Xamusk	gotta go	07:08
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AstralStorm	so, the only driver would be reducing infrastructure	07:08
AstralStorm	like number of routers	07:08
AstralStorm	and simplifying topology, lowering latency	07:08
oilinki	senores does this make any sense? i want to charge nokia phone, n810 and gps-module in car. i'm planing to put an 12v->5v (2A) transformer which will feed usb-hub (5v/2A) and then charge the devices from there?	07:09
AstralStorm	having to pass 10 NATs isn't too fast	07:09
AstralStorm	n810 can't be charged over USB, unless you grab that USB->Nokia plug charger	07:09
disco_stu	AstralStorm: nat does not overhead in performance	07:10
oilinki	AstralStorm: the idea is to push isps to use ipv6. therefore make ipv6 cheaper eg transfer the money from ipv4 to ipv6	07:10
AstralStorm	disco_stu: wrong	07:10
AstralStorm	it adds latency	07:10
AstralStorm	some ms	07:10
disco_stu	AstralStorm: i m not wrong man	07:10
AstralStorm	especially if busy	07:10
disco_stu	naa	07:10
AstralStorm	usually you pass about 3 nats	07:10
AstralStorm	which isn't any appreciable amount	07:10
oilinki	for the charger i tought that i can use the usb->nokia plug converter directly like this http://www.walrus.com/~raphael/html/usb_charge.html	07:11
AstralStorm	if 3GPP LTE is to run, you'll pass many more	07:11
AstralStorm	oilinki: yes, but n810 can drain up to 850 mA	07:11
AstralStorm	so in some very rare situations, the charger won't charge ;P	07:11
AstralStorm	disco_stu: I'm not talking like NAT for 3 machines	07:12
oilinki	AstralStorm: ok. but if it's 2A, then there should be some power left for phone and gps	07:12
AstralStorm	but one with 100s of clients	07:12
disco_stu	who said 3 machines	07:12
AstralStorm	oilinki: uhm...	07:12
disco_stu	the hell..	07:12
AstralStorm	USB limits current to 0.5A	07:12
disco_stu	nat 100 times	07:13
disco_stu	is the same	07:13
AstralStorm	no, it's not	07:13
AstralStorm	it has to inspect every packet, change the IP address in it	07:13
AstralStorm	that is time	07:13
oilinki	currently i use 12v-> 220v-> 5v in the car, which doesn't make any sense ;)	07:13
AstralStorm	and store info about state	07:13
oilinki	ah. i did not know about the 0.5A limit.	07:13
disco_stu	that is done at speedlight	07:13
disco_stu	lightspeed or whatever	07:13
AstralStorm	yes yes, check it yourself	07:13
AstralStorm	send it some bilion of packets	07:14
AstralStorm	see what's the average latency on output	07:14
AstralStorm	btw, LTE is supposed to do 200 Mb upload	07:14
AstralStorm	and 300 Mb download	07:14
AstralStorm	so you need a nat of 1GbE class	07:15
GeneralAntilles	The Nokia car charger is ~390mA	07:15
GeneralAntilles	So 500mA shouldn't be a huge issue.	07:15
AstralStorm	for just one happy hacker	07:15
AstralStorm	GeneralAntilles: and it doesn't manage to charge the battery	07:15
AstralStorm	I checked	07:15
AstralStorm	:)	07:15
AstralStorm	you need at least 450 mA to charge the battery on light use	07:15
GeneralAntilles	It does here.	07:16
AstralStorm	if you disable wifi, then yes	07:16
GeneralAntilles	Not sure who'd be using wifi in a car	07:16
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AstralStorm	you have a point :>	07:16
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AstralStorm	bluetooth eats less power	07:16
oilinki	i use sometimes with joikuspot.. but it will drain the e61i battery very fast	07:17
AstralStorm	disco_stu: what's more, with LTE you'll have one huge NAT, or at least a tree of few such	07:18
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oilinki	therefore nowdays it's bt-connection	07:18
AstralStorm	we need 3G LTE. Really :>	07:18
AstralStorm	uhm, that is, 4G	07:19
AstralStorm	this is almost as efficient as bluetooth, while having wide range	07:19
oilinki	I would be happy for a good edge connection in this country :)	07:23
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AstralStorm	hehe, here, edge is widely available almost everywhere	07:27
AstralStorm	about 99,1% of country	07:28
AstralStorm	99,52% population	07:28
oilinki	I spend tihs week in Phuket where I'm going to move soon. there the best connection I got was gprs with 10kBps download speed. lot's of places without any connectivity.	07:29
oilinki	well need to try with another operator if the connectivity would be better.	07:29
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zackeroo	how do you extract a .tar.gz ?	08:10
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oilinki	zackeroo: gunzip a.tar.gz and then tar xvf a.tar ?	08:13
bef0rd	tar -xvzf file.tar.gz	08:14
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zackeroo	no frontend?	08:15
zackeroo	you have to use the terminal for extracting a file?	08:15
bef0rd	I'd use the terminal anyway	08:16
zackeroo	does anyone know if Roadmap is good for anywhere else in the world but the US and Canada?	08:16
bef0rd	there is a front end , its called xarchiver I believe	08:17
zackeroo	yeah .. tried that and its not working ...	08:17
bef0rd	that's why I prefer the terminal.	08:18
zackeroo	ok	08:18
zackeroo	does anyone here use Roadmap?	08:18
oilinki	zackeroo: what is the roadmap for?	08:19
zackeroo	GPS	08:19
oilinki	and how does it differ of the maemo mapper?	08:19
zackeroo	seems like its made for GPS .... and I am trying to find one that does Voice	08:20
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oilinki	zackeroo: have you checked maemo mapper yet?	08:21
zackeroo	yes	08:21
zackeroo	no voice	08:21
zackeroo	and I have flite installed	08:21
zackeroo	and enabled	08:21
zackeroo	and, yes, it is working in the terminal	08:21
oilinki	hmm. i had a voice before with maemomapper and flite. now i have not cheked as the voice was too quiet for car usage	08:22
zackeroo	were you using Diablo?	08:23
oilinki	can not remember when i used with flite. could be before diablo.	08:23
zackeroo	yeah	08:24
oilinki	i really like the maemo mapper, but it has it faults as well. using pois is not very convinient	08:24
zackeroo	its really something ... because I upgrade to gain features, but I also loose features in the process	08:24
zackeroo	I really like mapper ... but without voice it is of no use to me	08:28
zackeroo	I cannot be bothered to have to read tiny text on a screen while driving ...	08:28
zackeroo	its also dangerous	08:28
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ShadowJK_	where can I get this lcars theme?	08:37
l7	ShadowJK_: http://synthesize.us/LCARS_PADD/changelog	08:39
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lopz	night	10:30
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Jaffa	morning, all	11:14
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* camel_liu look around		11:38
* Jaffa sticks a more concrete version of his package categorisation thoughts from yesterday on http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories		11:41
* qwerty12 would like a user/internet but user/network sounds good		11:42
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Jaffa	qwerty12: Samba clients wouldn't count as 'Internet' ;-)	11:45
Jaffa	(hopefully)	11:45
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qwerty12	Jaffa: I'm not thinking about Samba clients. I wanted to put transmission in user/internet but was forced to put it in user/other because the "allowed" categories available at the moment suck so I was forced to put it in user/other	11:46
qwerty12	-so I was forced to put it in user/other	11:46
qwerty12	(Didn't realise I was repeating myself >.<)	11:46
Jaffa	qwerty12: indeed, but my point was there are networky things which don't fit anywhere else, but aren't 'Internet' related. The i18n could always be 'Internet & networking'	11:47
qwerty12	Ah, yes, I get you now. Yeah, I agree, user/networking is a better choice when looking at it.	11:48
GeneralAntilles	I wonder what Nokia's plans are for Fremantle's application menu.	11:49
GeneralAntilles	It'd be nice to have enough top level folders to have them match the categories reasonably well.	11:49
camel_liu	I'm using maemo 4.1.1, and testing maemo SDK installation according to it reference manual	11:50
camel_liu	When run 'Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x16 -dpi 96 -ac -extension Composite', I got below ouput:	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	expected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc	11:50
camel_liu	How to resolve it?	11:50
qwerty12	Does it matter? It still works fine.	11:51
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camel_liu	Yes, it still works, but it bothers me.	11:53
camel_liu	I want everything be perfect.	11:53
camel_liu	And when I Ctrl+C it, it returns below:	11:54
camel_liu	FreeFontPath: FPE "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc" refcount is 2, should be 1; fixing.	11:54
camel_liu	What about this?	11:54
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: agreed	11:54
camel_liu	I want to why these messages occur and how to resolve them. Anybody knows?	11:56
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usicow	I've got a strange problem.. when I try to write files on /media/mmc1 I get the error that the file system is in read-only mode.. how can I verify this and fix it?	11:57
qwerty12	Running "mount" would tell you if it's in RO (afaik) and dmesg says if the device has been mounted ro. But you can run fsck as root to fix it.	11:59
qwerty12	s/RO/ro	11:59
qwerty12	s/fsck/fsck.whatever	11:59
* GeneralAntilles files a bug.		11:59
usicow	ok.. mount looks like it certainly is in RO mode.	12:00
usicow	/dev/mmcblk1p1 on /media/mmc1 type vfat (ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)	12:00
* qwerty12 vows never to "compile" po4a in scratchbox again. Fucking dependencies...		12:01
usicow	using dmesg it says '[ 654.843750] FAT: Filesystem panic (dev mmcblk0p1)'	12:02
camel_liu	to qwerty12: Do you have any idea about the problem of Xephyr?	12:02
qwerty12	camel_liu: Like I said when you PM'ed me:	12:03
qwerty12	qwerty12> Nope	12:03
qwerty12	<qwerty12> The messages have never bothered me so I've never bothered looking	12:03
qwerty12	usicow: become root with whatever method, run umount /media/mmc1 ; fsck.vfat -a /dev/mmcblk0p1 ; fsck.vfat -r /dev/mmcblk0p1	12:04
usicow	qwerty12: ok, I'll do that.. but what does that do? :) I'm just curious why this has happened.	12:05
qwerty12	usicow: Unmounts the memory card so fsck can do its stuff and repair it :). First invocation of fsck repairs it automatically and then the second invocation of fsck asks you what option to do to repair because I noticed in automatic mode, it skips things it wants an answer for	12:06
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qwerty12	The knob hasn't heard of a pastebin...	12:07
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qwerty12	He attempted to send me his scratchbox log over a pm	12:07
qwerty12	TF	12:07
GeneralAntilles	Ha	12:07
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usicow	qwerty12: ok.. there was another thing that I noticed, maybe it happened at the same time - I'm not sure.. but I install maemo-pan, and I think after that, my wireless router no longer gave the static IP that it used to. As if the mac address changed or something.. could that be possible?	12:09
GeneralAntilles	http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3822	12:09
GeneralAntilles	itt	12:09
qwerty12	usicow: maemo-pan shouldn't interfere with that, I have maemo-pan and I still get my ip's fine	12:10
usicow	strange...	12:11
qwerty12	usicow: Are you using the feature of the router where it assigns a specific ip via dhcp to a device or using a real static ip?	12:11
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, there is a lot to be said for going with the freedesktop.org specification	12:12
usicow	qwerty12: the feature where the router assigns a specific ip via DHCP (I assume based on mac address)	12:12
qwerty12	usicow: yeah, it's still getting done via dhcp then as opposed to being a real static ip	12:12
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camel_liu	af-sb-init.sh returns below:	12:13
camel_liu	[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > af-sb-init.sh start	12:13
camel_liu	Note: For remote X connections DISPLAY should contain hostname!	12:13
camel_liu	Sample files present.	12:13
camel_liu	Starting DBUS system bus	12:13
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qwerty12	Goddamn, if he can't live with a few errors, I doubt his programs contain bugs...	12:14
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camel_liu	What Plugin desktop file does it mean?	12:15
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GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, ping.	12:27
Stskeeps	pong	12:28
Stskeeps	might have to leave in a few though	12:28
Stskeeps	gf's home for 9 days and she wants to go shopping as she claims i don't have enough food in the house	12:28
GeneralAntilles	Ha	12:28
GeneralAntilles	That what I always tell my family. :P	12:28
GeneralAntilles	Well, it's a slightly involved question	12:28
usicow	qwerty12: Ok, I fixed the filesystem and thought everything was going okay,.. so I tried to update a project I've got via svn, and after a minute or so, the n810 just rebooted.. dont know why.. and now ksoftirqd/0 is using 100% CPU. Do you have any idea whats going on?	12:29
GeneralAntilles	But, I guess what I want to ask of you WRT Quim's stuff about upstream alignment is: What are the concrete things Nokia should do to maximize compatibility with Debian/Ubuntu?	12:29
GeneralAntilles	Put simply, what are the big blockers to adding a Debian repo to your catalog and installing packages from there?	12:30
Jaffa	\|/who	12:30
Jaffa	x	12:30
Jaffa	gavin: Voted on #3822	12:31
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: i'll think a bit and research for a proper answer for that.. they really messed up things with not having a proper debhelper for instance, package names / not following renames of packages..	12:31
Jaffa	Bah, damned nick completion on ':'	12:31
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Voted on #3822	12:31
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Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: many maemo-isms, gtkmm lacking typical properties (compile time thing), they should allow for selecting the embedded library and the full gtk	12:33
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, from your comments yesterday, I'm not sure where you got that Nokia doesn't want to align Maemo with upstream from Quim's comments.	12:33
GeneralAntilles	Unless you were responding to them not wanting to push Maemo as a mobile Linux for use by other manufacturers.	12:33
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: the last part	12:33
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Stskeeps	there's plenty of good things in maemo to do exactly that though	12:34
GeneralAntilles	I don't see that as having anything to do with aligning with upstream	12:34
crashanddie	Hi everyone :)	12:34
GeneralAntilles	Hey, crashanddie.	12:34
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: gtg for now, i'll think a bit about this :P	12:34
GeneralAntilles	How's the job?	12:34
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, thanks! :)	12:34
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, awesome, very busy	12:35
GeneralAntilles	I'm glad you are, because I don't have the experience to. :D	12:35
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, got back from work yesterday around 11PM :P	12:35
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GeneralAntilles	Ouch	12:35
crashanddie	monday evening I'm off for Paris	12:35
crashanddie	then within the next month or so, Ukraine	12:35
crashanddie	and then Paris again	12:35
qwerty12	~ping	12:37
infobot	~pong	12:37
GeneralAntilles	We need a wiki page for this upstream stuff.	12:38
Jaffa	krisse's gone mad.	12:39
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, ha, that was exactly my thought.	12:39
Jaffa	Maemo-based netbooks?	12:39
Jaffa	I'd rather have Ubuntu or OS X on a netbook than Maemo.	12:39
Jaffa	Almost worth blogging about it (not via the council) as there's no comment facility there.	12:40
usicow	qwerty12: do you have any idea about my problem with the fs/svn rebooting/ksoftirqd? I'm leaning towards just flashing the whole thing	12:41
GeneralAntilles	You take the stylus/fingers out of the equation and there isn't much point to Maemo.	12:41
qwerty12	usicow: Probably a dodgy sd card or the svn export or checkout is tying up the cpu and the watchdog is rebooting it	12:41
usicow	hmm	12:42
crashanddie	Maemo might have a point once Qt gets involved	12:42
crashanddie	Or liq*	12:42
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, but when you have a keyboard and trackpad?	12:42
crashanddie	Having a framework to easily develop lightweight applications	12:42
GeneralAntilles	Why would Maemo be better there than Ubuntu?	12:43
crashanddie	Hey, I didn't say I was right	12:43
crashanddie	I just woke up	12:43
GeneralAntilles	:P	12:43
crashanddie	I said it might have a point	12:43
crashanddie	not that it did :P	12:43
GeneralAntilles	You must have some arguments to back up your point. :P	12:44
crashanddie	oh fuck Maemo	12:44
GeneralAntilles	Right in the ear?	12:44
crashanddie	good enough of an argument for you?	12:44
crashanddie	Ight, in the rear?	12:44
GeneralAntilles	Quote from the South Park movie.	12:45
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/10/25/	12:46
crashanddie	pump up your ego much?	12:46
crashanddie	maemopeople [...] Jaffa	12:46
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crashanddie	I know, I know	12:47
Jaffa	crashanddie: eh? maemopeople.org is a free blog hosting site for Maemo-related topics	12:47
crashanddie	I'll stfu	12:47
GeneralAntilles	Who owns maemopeople?	12:47
Jaffa	maddler	12:47
crashanddie	Who's maddler?	12:48
* Jaffa outs: bike shopping for Jaffa Jr.		12:48
crashanddie	Jaffa, what's the budget?	12:48
crashanddie	Jaffa, and what does he want?	12:48
crashanddie	Trailing? Downhill? Road?	12:49
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, I don't think he's more than a few years old. :P	12:50
crashanddie	oh	12:50
crashanddie	I wouldn't suggest downhill then :P	12:50
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crashanddie	Damnit	12:50
crashanddie	the work computer has a UK-qwerty keyboard	12:51
crashanddie	I have a FR-azerty	12:51
crashanddie	I keep making mistqkates	12:51
GeneralAntilles	lol	12:51
crashanddie	mistakes**	12:51
GeneralAntilles	I type on two layouts without issue	12:51
GeneralAntilles	You'll cope. :P	12:51
crashanddie	Well usually I manage	12:51
crashanddie	it's just this morning...	12:51
GeneralAntilles	Ha	12:51
crashanddie	Oh and btw, blackberry ftw	12:52
camel_liu	When run 'af-sb-init.sh', it returns below:	12:52
camel_liu	[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > hildon-input-method[6842]: GLIB MESSAGE default - ui up and running	12:52
camel_liu	hildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB DEBUG default - mission_control_get_presence_actual: MC not running.	12:52
camel_liu	Audio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_open.wav' [error 3]	12:52
camel_liu	Audio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_close.wav' [error 3]	12:52
camel_liu	hildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin	12:52
* GeneralAntilles hand crashanddie a cup of coffee.		12:52
camel_liu	hildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin	12:52
camel_liu	Does nobody have any idea?	12:52
crashanddie	camel_liu, yeah, don't spam the channel	12:52
GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, please use slexy.org for that.	12:52
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: what nokia ought to do is: reconstruct maemo. take packages and traditional dependancies from latest debian/ubuntu dist, build for device, make a script for building this foundation, open source the foundation. Use OHM + Upstart + HAL for sane system services and power savings, Xorg+omapfb driver and a hildon desktop on top. Keep system updated with upstream - customize with busybox and such but don't try to limit upstream abilities ...	12:52
Stskeeps	... too much. If you're going to do API breaks (GTK, GTKMM), use seperate directories and make apps depend on the specialized apps (pkg-config maemo-gtk for instance), but don't break upstream ability to get something sane. Instead of relying on nokia binary blobs for wifi etc connectivity, use bluez and wpa_supplicant, maybe customize network manager to be less crap. Otherwise, provide stub conic etc.	12:52
crashanddie	Is this happy hour or what?	12:52
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: and then build services + apps + tablet specific things on top	12:52
camel_liu	I'm new in IRC	12:53
camel_liu	sorry	12:53
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, that sounds like the answer I was looking for.	12:53
crashanddie	camel_liu, does the UI show in Xephyr?	12:53
crashanddie	camel_liu, can you use it?	12:53
GeneralAntilles	We'll kick together a wiki page later, Stskeeps.	12:53
GeneralAntilles	Thanks. :)	12:53
camel_liu	yes, it show normally	12:53
crashanddie	camel_liu, then don't worry about it	12:53
crashanddie	camel_liu, everyone gets warnings	12:54
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, they're just harmless errors that qwerty12 told him to ignore.	12:54
crashanddie	camel_liu, rule of thumb: if it works, don't mess with it	12:54
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: and this will make a sane system for them and make community happy as people can, if they want, remove hildon, transfer maemo foundation to another tablet device (pandora), build their open source replacements and HW specific stuff for their device	12:54
Jaffa	crashanddie: as GeneralAntilles says, the type of bike is "first" ;-)	12:55
Stskeeps	and nokia instantly gets new apps for the maemo platform even when they're on other devices	12:55
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, get some baseball cards to go in the spokes. :)	12:55
qwerty12	This is the UK, it's all about football :p	12:55
GeneralAntilles	Right, that. :D	12:55
* GeneralAntilles wasn't thinking.		12:55
crashanddie	Jaffa, well, if you ever want some advice :) I'm about in to buy a £2000 downhill bike :)	12:55
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, you gonna get a Beagle or Pandora?	12:56
Stskeeps	and has the "cool" of more polished devices and OS'es, with support and neat services you can't get easily on other HW, increasing why you should select a nokia tablet	12:56
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, neither, by the looks of it	12:56
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, well, Pandora is dead for me, I don't want a gaming console	12:56
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, I'll get the beagle board once I have a car	12:57
crashanddie	I want to build a cheap audio/video system in it, using the beagle board	12:57
camel_liu	when I program something in Windows, I would like erverything to be ok, no warning, no error. In Linux or Maemo, that's different? We have to go on with so many warnings?	12:57
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, I want to see your notes after you do.	12:57
crashanddie	camel_liu, no, you don't have to	12:57
GeneralAntilles	That's been on my list for a really long time.	12:57
camel_liu	so I want to figure it out.	12:58
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, thing is, I won't have a car here in London unless I move out	12:58
crashanddie	camel_liu, excepted it's not your code	12:58
GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, Zephyr warnings don't have anything to do with your program.	12:58
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: do you think it's a sane idea or idiotic? i mean, it doesn't really seem like fremantle OS itself has moved that much	12:58
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, I think it's a fantastic idea.	12:58
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GeneralAntilles	But I suspect Nokia will want to take baby steps to start out.	12:58
camel_liu	but af-sb-init.sh does	12:58
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: they'll also get a lot of free work from their upstream :P	12:58
GeneralAntilles	I'd pick a few specific things that they can start with.	12:58
crashanddie	camel_liu, no, af-sb-init.sh doesn't raise any warnings	12:59
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, I think that's also the sort of answer Quim is after.	12:59
GeneralAntilles	So put all that in an email as soon as you have the free time and fire it off. ;)	12:59
camel_liu	How about the GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin? So many!	12:59
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: ok	13:00
Stskeeps	they better give me a job offer	13:00
Stskeeps	:P	13:00
GeneralAntilles	Ha	13:00
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, hell, you wouldn't be the first community guy to apply.	13:00
crashanddie	camel_liu, the underlying libraries/programs which are called/executed (and were created for a real hardware platform, and then ported to a software emulation, let's not forget that) create the warnings. One of the causes is that the scratchbox environment is extremely minimalistic (even more than Maemo itself, which is not saying nothing)	13:00
GeneralAntilles	(and get in)	13:00
GeneralAntilles	No harm in trying if you're actually interested. :P	13:00
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: i'm not entirely sure i would belong in nokia though :P but if i was able to insane things like this, maybe :P	13:00
crashanddie	camel_liu, I don't think any operating system in the world manages to start entirely without a single warning	13:01
crashanddie	It's not because those warnings are hidden from you they're anything better	13:01
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: any my idea would be a "wet dream maemo", really. You can get the power of desktop apps if you want, and use the power saving and embedded apps if you want as well	13:02
Stskeeps	best of both worlds	13:02
crashanddie	there is no power in desktop apps	13:02
Stskeeps	and porting would be slightly easier	13:02
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, set two targets, the "wet dream Maemo" and some specific realistic targets Nokia can hit.	13:02
Stskeeps	:P	13:02
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: mm	13:02
crashanddie	only lack of power from the intensive shit, and poor UI design	13:03
Stskeeps	i really think most of the stuff i've said is "realistic", as they're doing most things already (atleast what they claim)	13:03
Stskeeps	ohm+upstart+hal for instance	13:03
Stskeeps	anyhow	13:03
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, fair enough.	13:03
Stskeeps	shoppin' time	13:03
GeneralAntilles	Have fun.	13:03
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* crashanddie goes to get a cup of coffee, and then gets back to Windows 2003 server, VPN, LDAP, and smartcards :)		13:04
GeneralAntilles	Bleh	13:05
camel_liu	crashanddie: thank you	13:05
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qwerty12	Windows server 2003 administration eh? The best thing I done with my school's windows 2003 server was hack it (their fault for using the same admin password on all the client computers) and then modify the isa server rules to let me utorrent :P	13:06
crashanddie	qwerty12, nha, not administration, lol	13:06
crashanddie	qwerty12, I have a better job than that :P	13:07
qwerty12	Hehe, even better :D	13:07
crashanddie	qwerty12, I wouldn't be travelling the world if I was a sysadmin	13:07
GeneralAntilles	High-price manwhore with a computer geek theme? :P	13:07
crashanddie	hahaha	13:08
camel_liu	crashanddie, do you happen to have any links to teach how to make applications compiled in scratchbox run at Nokia N800 step by step?	13:11
crashanddie	Open a browser, type "maemo.org" in the address bar, click on development, click on documentation, click on how-to, click on maemo diablo release documentation	13:12
crashanddie	that enough step by step?	13:13
camel_liu	The Diablo reference manual is not clear about how to start at N800	13:13
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camel_liu	Yes, I browse the maemo.org, and download the reference manual	13:14
camel_liu	When I follow the manual, I confuse at section 3.5 Setting up USB Networking	13:15
crashanddie	you probably don't need it	13:16
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* qwerty12 would recommend to learn the essence of packaging instead		13:17
crashanddie	camel_liu, once it's compiled, scp the binary over to the n800, run	13:17
camel_liu	We bought several N800s from eBay, and want to do something on them.	13:18
crashanddie	camel_liu, have you upgraded them to diablo?	13:18
GeneralAntilles	Anybody have any suggestions for what I should replace the Nokia hands startup screen with that would be maemo.org themed?	13:18
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, goatse	13:19
GeneralAntilles	<_<	13:19
qwerty12	haha	13:19
crashanddie	"Every reboot is a PITA"	13:19
camel_liu	some are OS2008. How to see the version on N800?	13:19
crashanddie	camel_liu, settings > about	13:19
* qwerty12 still gets shits and giggles looking at goatser		13:19
qwerty12	-r	13:19
MangoFusion	several n800's...	13:19
crashanddie	qwerty12, goatser was the guy, actually	13:20
MangoFusion	i know	13:20
MangoFusion	a cluster!	13:20
crashanddie	BEOWULF	13:20
qwerty12	crashanddie: really, lol	13:20
MangoFusion	indeed	13:20
camel_liu	NO settings found in menu :(	13:21
crashanddie	...	13:22
qwerty12	My friend had a u3 and I installed gonzor for him on it and he ran it on his own computer to test it out and it dumped the firefox saved passwords and he kept the logs. He gave me the usb to put ut on it and I saw the logs and I set his avatar to goatse on ipmart	13:22
crashanddie	qwerty12, usb hacksaw/switchblade... Lame	13:23
qwerty12	crashanddie: Worked for me for getting his firefox password (unintentionally) :P	13:23
GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, Application menu: Settings -> Control Panel: About	13:23
* qwerty12 is a self confessed script kidde		13:23
qwerty12	*kiddie even	13:23
GeneralAntilles	http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3820 and http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3819	13:25
GeneralAntilles	Anybody object to WONTFIX and WORKSFORME?	13:25
qwerty12	Nope	13:25
qwerty12	The guy opening 3820 is lazy imo	13:26
camel_liu	Ok, this N800 in my hand is OS2007, and it's Application menu: Tools -> Control Panel: About. Thanks	13:26
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GeneralAntilles	camel_liu:	13:27
GeneralAntilles	~flashing	13:27
infobot	rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	13:27
eichi	helo	13:27
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eichi	i have a small problem with the rights from external memorycard	13:27
eichi	if i put data from my laptop on it, i dont have write access to them on the n800	13:28
qwerty12	ext* formatted?	13:28
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camel_liu	How can I start xterm on N800?	13:30
qwerty12	It doesn't come with OS2007 by default	13:31
camel_liu	So I have to upgrade to OS2008 first?	13:32
qwerty12	Hmm, I have no idea where to get it for OS2007 though having only ever used it for 10 mins. I'd just say upgrade to diablo reading the link GeneralAntilles gave	13:32
qwerty12	Basically, yeah. Which SDK did you install btw?	13:32
camel_liu	Just browse to that link using N800? My SDK installed is 4.1.1.	13:33
qwerty12	Oh, programs built with that SDK wouldn't work in OS2007 anyway	13:33
qwerty12	No computer, as you need a computer to perform the actual upgrade	13:33
eichi	qwerty12, yes, ext3 but will do ex2 next days	13:34
camel_liu	qwerty12, I do not understand what you said.	13:35
qwerty12	eichi: Check if "user" owns the files you want to access. ls -l <file> should tell you	13:35
camel_liu	N800 cannot upgrade through wifi?	13:35
qwerty12	camel_liu: Not in OS2007,	13:35
qwerty12	Oh, my bad, I see my grammatical problems creeped up in that sentence. You need a computer to upgrade from OS2007 to OS2008.	13:36
camel_liu	How? the link (http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware) returns a blank page.	13:38
GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, reload.	13:38
camel_liu	still nothing! Not this link?	13:39
GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, make sure it's not just reloading the cache. . . .	13:39
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eichi	qwerty12, and then i have to do chown user:users <folder> -r ?	13:41
qwerty12	eichi: yep	13:41
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eichi	qwerty12, shi*, no valid user "user" ;D in laptop	13:47
t_s_o	maemo not usable with a larger keyboard? yea right...	13:47
qwerty12	eichi: do it on the tablet :P	13:47
eichi	and the user-ID would not be the same maybe	13:47
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camel_liu	other links in 'wiki.maemo.org' are ok except that one (Updating_the_tablet_firmware)!	13:48
usicow	qwerty12: what the correct mount command to remount /dev/mmcblk1p1?	13:49
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GeneralAntilles	camel_liu, your browser has cached the blank page.	13:49
qwerty12	usicow: ke-recv mounts it with something really long. Just remove and reinsert the memory card	13:49
GeneralAntilles	Make sure it isn't reloading the cached page.	13:49
usicow	ok	13:49
camel_liu	I cleared cach, but still return blank page	13:54
qwerty12	Which browser?	13:54
camel_liu	firefox	13:54
qwerty12	Press Ctrl-Shift-R at the blank page	13:54
camel_liu	Done!	13:55
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camel_liu	I'll remember Ctrl-Shift-R! Thanks!	13:56
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camel_liu	crashanddie, GeneralAntilles, infobot and qwerty12: Thanks for your patient answers.	14:05
qwerty12	No problems but you should know that infobot isn't human :D	14:06
camel_liu	Oh ?	14:06
qwerty12	Yeah, he's a bot	14:06
camel_liu	just a bot	14:07
camel_liu	How clever!	14:07
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camel_liu	When a program is compiled under scratchbox, how can I ship it to N800? Is there any references? Or just follow the step of Reference Manual for maemo 4.1? crashanddie said just scp it to n800 and run. Is that simple?	14:12
GeneralAntilles	Of course it's that simple.	14:12
camel_liu	just connect N800 to host by USB and scp in terminal of host?	14:14
camel_liu	no gainroot on N800 or else?	14:15
GeneralAntilles	Just use wifi	14:15
GeneralAntilles	sftp is also an option	14:15
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hellwolf	In maemo mapper, I clicked route->download, then the application stopped. Should I wait	14:16
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camel_liu	Browse to that package and download it through wifi, then install and run. Am I right?	14:17
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camel_liu	GeneralAntilles?	14:21
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camel_liu	If I want my apllication to be run on N800, then What I need to do is just scp or download it to N800 through wifi. No USB networking is needed, right?	14:31
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GeneralAntilles	Whew, there's a 2000-email lighter inbox.	15:24
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RST38h	rm -rf?	15:27
GeneralAntilles	Nah, there was important stuff mixed in with the spam.	15:27
hibersh	hello everyone	15:27
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* Jaffa yawns		16:38
* GAN800 wonders if karma will ever work again.		16:45
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Jaffa	Seems unlikely.	16:53
Jaffa	How many people are working on maemo.org fulltime?	16:54
solmumaha	should i be able to edit wiki or what is this user localhost thing?	16:55
Jaffa	solmumaha: either login or use https	16:55
solmumaha	i did login	16:55
Jaffa	ah	16:55
solmumaha	ah, works with https, thanks	16:56
solmumaha	although it still says " You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history."	16:57
Jaffa	You sure you're logged in? ;-)	16:58
solmumaha	yes, it shows my ip on top right and lets me edit it	17:00
qwerty12	That means you aren't logged in :)	17:00
solmumaha	sigh	17:01
qwerty12	If you are logged in, you should see your username there instead	17:01
GAN800	Jaffa, would you count Nemein?	17:01
Jaffa	Hmm, maybe.	17:01
solmumaha	ou are now logged in to maemo wiki as "ukki"	17:01
solmumaha	but after i return to article, it shows my ip	17:02
GAN800	Jaffa, too many for karma not to work, methinks. :/	17:02
* Jaffa trying to work out how many people /could/ be working on fixing what weve already got, rather than spending time on other things		17:02
Jaffa	GAN800: that was where I was going, too	17:02
GAN800	solmumaha, there's a bug.	17:03
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GAN800	and there still haven't been noticeable improvements in the site performance even though we supposedly have new hardware	17:05
Jaffa	rn to article, it shows my ip	17:05
* GAN800 sighs.		17:05
Jaffa	Ah, that's now DB problems cough	17:05
GAN800	and I'd say 'Just make it work already'	17:06
GAN800	However much money Nokia needs to throw at it to make it work. . . .	17:06
GAN800	How far gone is the 100 Days now?	17:07
l7	what db problems?	17:07
crashanddie	they didn't change shit on the website	17:07
crashanddie	and if they did, they need to fire the sysadmins	17:07
GAN800	l7, supposedly the performance bottleneck is now the db machine.	17:08
crashanddie	solmumaha, don't hit the return button	17:08
crashanddie	solmumaha, refresh the page	17:08
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orangey	hey all!	17:09
crashanddie	by	17:10
crashanddie	e	17:10
orangey	Is it in any way possible to make a telephone call with a nokia n810?	17:10
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orangey	or any maemo, I guess..	17:10
orangey	I mean using a GSM modem of some kind accessible to maemo	17:10
crashanddie	no	17:10
Jaffa	orangey: Not directly. Only using SIP or SkypeOut etc.	17:10
orangey	Jaffa: fair enough.	17:11
orangey	I think my n810 is nearly perfect. The only thing that would make it sublime would be cell capabilities.	17:11
orangey	plus or minus usable GPS : )	17:11
crashanddie	plus or minus?	17:12
* GAN800 still cannot fathom why anybody would want to hold one of these bricks to their face.		17:12
orangey	crashanddie: as in "it doesn't matter either way"	17:12
crashanddie	GAN800, apple effect	17:13
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crashanddie	"Finger it, then put your face on it"	17:13
GAN800	iPhone's still way smaller.	17:13
crashanddie	hmm, I'm sorry for what I just said	17:14
crashanddie	it was way less ambiguous when I thought it	17:14
GAN800	Ha	17:14
crashanddie	qnyqay	17:15
crashanddie	ok	17:15
crashanddie	anyway, back to work	17:15
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GAN800	bergie, when's karma gonna work again?	17:18
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bergie	GAN800: next week	17:19
bergie	I was supposed to do it last Thu but then there was a medical emergency :-/	17:19
GAN800	Oh, sorry to hear that.	17:20
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sven-tek	Hi! i installed jalimo for a java program. From the error i get starting it, i found that the package classpath-gtk is missing. But its not in the repository. By chance, anyone here familiar with this?	17:25
Jaffa	I installed jalimo-swt-example and it Just Worked[TM]	17:26
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RST38h	sven: Install one of the examples - it should install all the necessary stuff	17:35
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camel_liu	hi, everyone!	17:43
johnx	hi	17:43
camel_liu	:)	17:44
camel_liu	I'm new in Maemo.	17:44
camel_liu	I want know how to install package librsvg2-2 in scratchbox from maemo.org extras repository.	17:45
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camel_liu	How to install a package in scratchbox from a special repository?	17:47
johnx	in scratchbox, edit /etc/apt/sources.list (or maybe /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-<something>	17:48
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johnx	you can find the information you need to add in any .install file for a package in extras	17:49
camel_liu	add that repository to sources.list?	17:49
johnx	correct	17:49
johnx	that should do it	17:49
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camel_liu	then? use apt-get?	17:49
johnx	yup	17:50
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GeneralAntilles	Ahh, the explosive sound of a car accident.	17:51
johnx	heh...I'm thousands of miles away from mine. is that outside where you are GeneralAntilles?	17:52
camel_liu	Can I list the content of a repository in scratchbox?	17:53
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GeneralAntilles	There's a big road about 500' outside my window.	17:54
johnx	you can list the contents of all repos I think	17:54
johnx	some apt-cache command	17:54
GeneralAntilles	Some idiot in a WRX seems to have smacked into the back of an Accord.	17:54
johnx	4wd makes you go faster, not stop faster :)	17:54
GeneralAntilles	Ehehe	17:54
GeneralAntilles	Crash, then the squealing tires.	17:55
camel_liu	johnx, I'll try it. Thanks.	17:55
GeneralAntilles	Guess they didn't account for the wet roads.	17:55
lopz	hola	17:55
johnx	it's awesome when people in 4wd SUVs try to drive in the snow	17:55
johnx	camel_liu, apt-cache dumpavail \| less	17:55
Kegetys	crash first, then brake? :P	17:55
johnx	probably the accord had his brakes on?	17:56
GeneralAntilles	Kegetys, more like the sound of the Accord stealing all of the Subaru's energy.	17:56
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	17:56
RST38h	johnx: I have driven my CRV in the snow. Drives just fine, as long as you know what you are doing	17:56
BugBlue	hehe	17:56
BugBlue	finally compiling kismet with pcap support	17:56
GeneralAntilles	CR-V comes in 4WD?	17:57
BugBlue	just patched the source that GPS will work	17:57
qwerty12	with tz1's patch?	17:57
RST38h	General: It i AWD	17:57
johnx	RST38h, I guess I should say unskilled people who think 4wd is a replacement for experience	17:57
RST38h	johnx: I am not particularly skilled, just careful (most of the time)	17:57
johnx	yeah, I'm real careful in snow, except in open parking lots where I know where the curbs are	17:58
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, it's not that 4WD can't drive in snow, it's just that idiots tend to thing certain automobile features can save them from anything.	17:58
BugBlue	qwerty12: no not yet... I'm playing	17:58
* GeneralAntilles has yet to drive in snow.		17:58
GeneralAntilles	Rain I can do, though!	17:58
qwerty12	BugBlue: Ah, ok. I should recompile aircrack-ng from the latest svn but that means I have to set up an cs2008 toolchain :/	17:58
johnx	just a matter of drive slower than you think you should, leave lots of space, love your ABS like you never have before	17:59
BugBlue	mm	18:00
BugBlue	just lost my ssh connection with my nokia	18:00
BugBlue	I guess kismet does work	18:00
* RST38h had to drive out from about 30cm of snow in CRV - it looks and feels like a speedboat but runs		18:00
johnx	"work" is putting it a little strongly	18:00
BugBlue	let's take a look at the device	18:00
RST38h	50cm stop it dead - it is just stuck	18:00
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* johnx loves his little subaru wagon		18:00
johnx	biggest problem is an open diff in the rear :/	18:01
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RST38h	johnx: Justy? =)	18:01
johnx	RST38h, 96 impreza outback sport	18:01
RST38h	ah	18:02
* RST38h almost bought that one		18:02
johnx	good year for that car, before they made them huge and heavy, also the 96 was the only year with a 2.2L that was non-interference	18:03
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RST38h	I got spooked by that air intake in front of the windshield	18:05
johnx	the scoopy thing?	18:05
johnx	that was a 97 feature :)	18:05
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RST38h	Then it was the '97 model as I ended up buying '97 CRV	18:05
johnx	it's for uhm...cooling something or uhm...increasing the aerodynamic profile :/	18:06
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johnx	looks fugly, blocks wind, not attached to anything (AFAIK) on a non-turbo subaru	18:06
mardi__	getting cool air to the small intercooler	18:06
mardi__	on turbo model	18:06
RST38h	johnx: I suspect it is for ventingfumes	18:06
johnx	while you're in reverse?	18:07
RST38h	because older subarus had that oil burnout problem	18:07
johnx	yeah, that's why I stayed away from the EA82 engines	18:07
RST38h	johnx: maybe it scoops air and blows fumes down under? =)	18:07
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johnx	RST38h, so it can come in around the gear shift? :D	18:08
RST38h	kinda =)	18:08
RST38h	I once did work for the guy whose 87 (?) Legacy started smoking every time he reached 40mph	18:09
RST38h	It also looked exactly like 84 Camry =)	18:09
johnx	that would be an EA82 I believe	18:09
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mardi__	engine has an undertray, doubt fumes would get out underneath	18:13
RST38h	they got out up front though	18:14
johnx	mmmm...fumes	18:14
RST38h	btw, Subaru is absolutely hated by mechanics =)	18:15
johnx	ha	18:15
johnx	I believe it	18:15
johnx	I don't look forward to working on mine	18:15
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* RST38h wonders which one is more trouble: Subaru or LuAZ		18:18
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RST38h	One has got weird engine, another has got weird transmission	18:21
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johnx	give me a RWD car with an I6 any day...	18:24
GAN800	Mmmm	18:26
GAN800	It's too bad RWD is dead	18:26
RST38h	not yet	18:26
johnx	if you want something new: yes.	18:26
johnx	well, BMW still does it	18:26
RST38h	See Toyota Avensis for example	18:26
johnx	really, still using a 2JZ?	18:27
johnx	err...no?	18:27
johnx	FWD I4...	18:28
RST38h	Really? Last time I checked (2 years ago?) it was RWD	18:29
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johnx	maybe a different toyota	18:30
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GAN800	I'm still pulling for a new RWD Corolla	18:31
johnx	heh	18:31
RST38h	what do you need rwd for?	18:31
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johnx	people have been doing that for 20 years	18:31
camel_liu	when I run 'apt-get update', there're something 'Failed to fetch'. Not all, and just a few. Why?	18:32
johnx	camel_liu, warnings or errors?	18:32
GAN800	Two words: torque steer	18:32
camel_liu	I have to download them through browser	18:32
johnx	also, is it the thing you just added?	18:32
camel_liu	No, includes something old	18:33
johnx	could you put the error up on pastebin?	18:33
camel_liu	when I install Maemo SDK, this happen once.	18:33
camel_liu	pastebin? I have been there. Where?	18:34
johnx	~pastebin	18:34
infobot	[~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste	18:34
camel_liu	I'm a freshman in Maemo	18:34
johnx	copy the whole output of apt-get update to pastebin :)	18:35
johnx	that way we can see what's going on	18:35
camel_liu	wait a moment	18:35
camel_liu	Error with post: Sorry, your post tripped our spam filter - let us know if you think this could be improved	18:38
johnx	eep	18:40
johnx	try a different pastebin I guess?	18:40
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GeneralAntilles	Stupid Obama idiots making me get up off the couch to answer the door. . . .	18:41
RST38h	Doesn't that reduce his chances of success? =)	18:42
GeneralAntilles	I don't need anybody telling me who to vote for, thanks.	18:42
camel_liu	Why? Should I register to post the code at pasterbin?	18:43
johnx	some people do :)	18:43
johnx	camel_liu, you shouldn't need to register. just pastebin.ca maybe	18:44
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GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, I wonder what ossi1967's definition of a "touch based OS" is. . . .	18:45
camel_liu	Done! http://pastebin.ca/1236505	18:45
RST38h	General: Put a sign up - "Political campaigners will be shot, dismembered, diced, and fed to hamsters"	18:45
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	18:45
GeneralAntilles	I wouldn't have gotten up at all if I weren't expecting a FedEx package today.	18:45
johnx	I don't have scratchbox setup right now. Can someone comment on camel_liu's error message?	18:47
RST38h	this is not an error message	18:49
RST38h	it is a warning that some repos are down	18:49
johnx	the file is retrieavable in a browser. Is this temporary? or is there a workaround?	18:50
camel_liu	I can downnload them through firefox however!	18:51
johnx	same here. obviously apt isn't handling "302 found" correctly	18:51
johnx	but at the same time, the repository shouldn't be returning 302 found	18:51
RST38h	it should come up	18:55
RST38h	sooner or later	18:56
camel_liu	When I install maemo SDK at first time, this issue suffered me three days. One file is always failed to fetch. I tried everything, including dns resolving and reinstalling the whole system. The final mothed is downloading that file through browser and open the .gz. Save it as what name it should be and where it should be.	18:56
RST38h	The weird thing is, I also installed Maemo SDK and did not need this step	18:56
RST38h	didn't apt-get anything - the thing installed and just worked.	18:56
johnx	from wget on the command line it's giving me 200 OK	18:57
johnx	camel_liu, outside of scratchbox, could you try downloading one of the Packages.gz files with wget?	18:58
camel_liu	I follewed the reference manual, the auto install .sh is stop at update, so I have to update list manually	18:58
johnx	camel_liu, you didn't do anything wrong I think. it appears to be some problem with maemo.org	18:59
camel_liu	yes, I can get it with wget just in scratchbox!	18:59
johnx	camel_liu, when you use wget on the line that says "HTTP request sent, awaiting response" what does it say? 200 OK? or something else?	19:00
camel_liu	new post including wget info, see http://pastebin.ca/1236512	19:01
camel_liu	HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found	19:02
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johnx	ok, looks like one of the mirrors of maemo.org is returning 302 found...	19:03
johnx	it doesn't do that here, but it also resolves to a different address	19:03
camel_liu	but we cannot control which mirror it choosed, can we?	19:03
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johnx	hang on a sec	19:04
camel_liu	wget can resolve to another one, but apt-get cannot, right?	19:05
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johnx	no, wget handles the redirect correctly	19:05
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johnx	on my computer it is accessing a different mirror. That's probably the case for other people too	19:06
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RST38h	camel_liu: Have you considered using SB2 instead? =)	19:06
* RST38h smiles satanically		19:06
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qwerty12	SB2 can burn in hell!	19:06
johnx	RST38h, won't help	19:06
qwerty12	MUAHAHAHAHA	19:07
RST38h	SB2 is at home there!	19:07
camel_liu	apt-get cannot redirect correctly?	19:07
RST38h	johnx: I do not remember SB2 ever doing this	19:07
* qwerty12 douses SB2 with water. Drown bitch!		19:07
RST38h	On the other hand, I do not remember SB doing that either =(	19:07
johnx	camel_liu, yes. but the bug is that the repository shouldn't be redirecting	19:08
johnx	RST38h, apt doesn't handle 302 redirects. the maemo.org mirror he connects to is redirecting. Yors isn't	19:08
johnx	RST38h, it's a location based thing. Moving would help. :) So would fixing the repository server...	19:08
RST38h	johnx: No, I mean I do not remember it running apt-get during install at all	19:08
johnx	RST38h, it did. you missed it :)	19:09
RST38h	Wait wait....	19:09
RST38h	He cannot move of course. But he can edit his hosts file to point to the correct mirror	19:09
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camel_liu	In maemo-sdk-install_4.1.1.sh, at the end, it runs apt-get	19:09
johnx	yeah, that might work. it would be best to just get this cleared up so other people don't run into it. I'm sure it's not intended behavior	19:09
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camel_liu	I've slept only 4 hours every these three days to install maemo. Just because of this issue.	19:12
camel_liu	Which hosts file should I edit to point to the correct mirror?	19:12
johnx	inside scratchbox, edit /etc/hosts	19:13
johnx	add this line:	19:13
johnx	210.150.253.248 repository.maemo.org	19:13
johnx	that might work	19:13
GAN800	Doubt it	19:14
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johnx	GAN800, better ideas. Before you ask, yes I'm filing a bug	19:14
GAN800	No, but s/repository.maemo.org/$akamai mirror/ doesn't work for http directory listings.	19:15
qwerty12	That reminds me, nokia people should get rid of files not needed: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/akamai.diff ...	19:16
RST38h	can apt-get be configured to use a proxy?	19:17
BugBlue	oke my kismet does work nicely :D	19:17
johnx	RST38h, yes	19:17
BugBlue	and it doesn't even destroy my wireless anymore	19:17
johnx	BugBlue, does it actually produce proper results?	19:17
RST38h	then the plan-b solution would be to make it run through a US-based proxy	19:17
johnx	camel_liu, where are you?	19:18
qwerty12	johnx: I've had kismet running for 24h successfully	19:18
BugBlue	johnx: it does	19:18
camel_liu	China	19:18
johnx	qwerty12, I did too, but it returned lots of phantom results when checked against my zaurus	19:18
BugBlue	time to run around the village here after some more configuring	19:18
qwerty12	johnx: + I was able to get the WEP key of the network I was dumping packets from	19:18
camel_liu	The number of files that failed to fetch is not constant.	19:19
johnx	does the IP address of server change?	19:19
camel_liu	no, just 61.200.81.143	19:20
melmoth	i have a daemon that i can start with /etc/init.d/servicescript start. I use update-rc.d so it should start for runlevel 2,3,4 and 5 (S90). But "it does not work".	19:21
melmoth	any idea of where i could look ? any package known to start a daemon at startup so i can look how it s done there ?	19:22
johnx	melmoth, is it symlinked into /etc/rc2.d as Snndaemon	19:22
johnx	where nn is the order	19:22
melmoth	yep , it is.	19:23
qwerty12	melmoth: You shouldn't need to start it for runlevel 3 & 4	19:23
camel_liu	how to resolve '302 Found'? Just manually fetch them one by one?	19:25
RST38h	you may configure apt-get to use a US-based proxy or something	19:26
johnx	camel_liu, can you use a proxy? I'm filing a bug report so that it can be fixed properly,	19:26
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melmoth	let see if it works better with 99 instead of 90 as the order	19:27
camel_liu	how to use a proxy in apt-get?	19:27
RST38h	http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32708	19:28
johnx	first try this:	19:28
johnx	export http_proxy=http://some-proxy:8080	19:29
johnx	replace some-proxy with the real name, and 8080 with whatever port	19:29
BugBlue	it seems that the output from gpsd/the gps driver changed between maemo 4.0 and 4.1	19:30
camel_liu	But I have no US-based proxy :(	19:30
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RST38h	camel_ Google search for "http proxies" ? =)	19:33
RST38h	No?	19:33
camel_liu	no, but I'll try	19:33
johnx	camel_liu, do you already connect through a proxy?	19:40
melmoth	Hmm, actually, the daemon starts, but it dies because of dbus: cannot open /var/lib/dbus/machine-id . Looks like i should wait untill the whole desktop environment is started.	19:41
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johnx	I am testing proxies inside China and they seem to work fine :)	19:41
qwerty12	melmoth: hmm, if your daemon is running as root, either prefix it with run-standalone or put this in the postinst of your program:	19:42
qwerty12	if [ ! -e /var/lib/dbus/machine-id ]; then	19:42
qwerty12	dbus-uuidgen --ensure=/var/lib/dbus/machine-id	19:42
qwerty12	fi	19:42
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camel_liu	johnx, is 'export http_proxy=' the parameter of apt-get?	19:43
melmoth	hmmm.. So, it should not do that if it run as user ? Let s try that, it does not need to be root in the first place.	19:44
qwerty12	melmoth: yep	19:44
johnx	export http_proxy=foo:8080	19:44
johnx	apt-get update	19:44
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johnx	camel_liu, separate commands	19:44
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camel_liu	how can I validate a proxy? ping?	19:48
johnx	tell me the proxy and I'll try it :)	19:49
camel_liu	208.62.125.146:80 from http://www.proxy4free.com/page1.html	19:49
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johnx	not working here. try 128.112.139.97:3127	19:50
camel_liu	Err http://repository.maemo.org diablo/sdk Release.gpg	19:52
camel_liu	Could not resolve '3127'	19:52
johnx	I think you might have typed something wrong	19:52
camel_liu	Err http://repository.maemo.org diablo/sdk/free Packages	19:52
camel_liu	Could not resolve '3127'	19:52
camel_liu	[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > export http_proxy=128.112.139.97:3127	19:53
camel_liu	[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > apt-get update	19:53
johnx	ok, that's right	19:54
johnx	hmmm	19:54
johnx	fails here too, but try wget at least	19:55
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camel_liu	how can I disable the 'export http_proxy='?	19:56
johnx	unset http_proxy	19:56
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Stskeeps	camel_liu: if you have repo issues from installing sdk, get the new .sh from the page where you get it, it should be fixed	20:07
johnx	Stskeeps, issues with "302 found" ?	20:07
Stskeeps	possibly yeah	20:08
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camel_liu	I installed sdk.	20:08
camel_liu	what i want know is to install librsvg2-2	20:09
Stskeeps	ah	20:09
camel_liu	now	20:09
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camel_liu	I follow the reference manual to try monkey bubble	20:10
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camel_liu	it needs librsvg2-2, which is available in maemo.org extras repository	20:11
camel_liu	so I add that repo to sources.list	20:12
camel_liu	and try apt-get update	20:12
camel_liu	then get '302 Found'.	20:12
camel_liu	When I install sdk, this also happened to me. I resolved it by downloading the failed file through browser, opening and saving it as needed.	20:14
camel_liu	This is what caused Err in .sh: $__scratchbox/login apt-get -o Acquire::http::TimeOut=15 -o Acquire::http::Retries=2 update	20:16
camel_liu	Stskeeps, new .sh changed this?	20:17
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camel_liu	Problem with apt-get or repo server?	20:18
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camel_liu	johnx, I can download ,gz from 202.158.161.39:9203, any help?	20:22
johnx	with wget?	20:22
johnx	does it give you 302 found at all?	20:22
camel_liu	firefox	20:22
johnx	firefox understands redirects. 302 found is a redirect.	20:23
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camel_liu	wget also understands.	20:23
johnx	yes	20:23
johnx	does wget say "302 Found" at some point during the download?	20:24
camel_liu	why not apt-get? It's not only for maemo, it's for ubuntu too	20:24
johnx	I don't know. ask the people who wrote apt-get	20:24
camel_liu	yes, wget say it, but finally redirect to another one	20:26
RST38h	so, using a proxy did not work out?	20:27
camel_liu	johnx has given me a proxy, and did not work out	20:28
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RST38h	ok	20:30
johnx	camel_liu, try one more thing. Add this to /etc/apt.conf: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/fedora-35/how-to-set-up-proxy-in-apt-gets-apt.conf-265793/#post1351786	20:30
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camel_liu	apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=128.112.139.97:3127 update	20:33
johnx	sure, that should work	20:33
johnx	does it work?	20:33
camel_liu	does not work too	20:33
johnx	302 found or other error?	20:33
camel_liu	40% [Connecting to 3127]	20:33
camel_liu	Could not resolve '3127'	20:34
johnx	ok, that's not the right syntax	20:34
johnx	doesn't work here either	20:34
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RST38h	this looks like config file syntax	20:35
RST38h	gimme a moment	20:35
johnx	I need to get some sleep. sorry guys :(	20:36
johnx	good luck	20:36
RST38h	apt.conf: Acquire::http::Proxy "http://repository-cache:3142";	20:36
RST38h	johnx: good night	20:36
camel_liu	Thank you so much	20:36
GAN800	Ugh, I can hear the marching band practice from a mile away.	20:36
camel_liu	good night	20:36
RST38h	the above line has to be inserted into the apt.conf	20:36
johnx	:)	20:36
RST38h	GAN: Lucky. I can hear the traveling circus performance 300 meters from here	20:37
RST38h	One would think that the end of October is where they should find some [warm] home and close up for the winter...	20:37
GAN800	Sounded like one of my neighbors holding a drum circle at first.	20:37
RST38h	Have they at least got any cute girls? =)	20:38
RST38h	Ok, try apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=http://128.112.139.97:3127/ update	20:40
RST38h	And see what happens	20:40
camel_liu	I'm trying	20:41
camel_liu	seems to work	20:41
RST38h	all righty	20:41
camel_liu	Done!	20:43
camel_liu	but http://repository-cache:3142/ cannot	20:44
RST38h	this is just a sample url	20:44
RST38h	do not use it, use the one that ends with :3127	20:44
camel_liu	3127 Done! When johnx said "ok, that's not the right syntax"	20:46
RST38h	I have given you the correct syntax	20:46
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camel_liu	I began to try the right one	20:46
camel_liu	yes! RST38h gave the same one! Thanks a lot!	20:47
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camel_liu	But johnx just left	20:47
RST38h	It is long past midnight where he lives	20:47
camel_liu	Just a few seconds he can get the right answer	20:48
johnx	hmm?	20:48
qwerty12_N800	Hmm, by pinging johnx, he wakes up from his sleep :)	20:49
RST38h	cruel	20:49
johnx	this works for me -> apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=http://128.112.139.97:3127/ update	20:49
camel_liu	He has spared so much time with me about this issue. It's a pity that the right answer comes out just seconds after his leaving.	20:50
camel_liu	Oh, you're still here!	20:51
johnx	I'm just glad it worked	20:51
Stskeeps	johnx: disabling beeps when your nick comes up is a basic thing to be able to sleep :>	20:51
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johnx	Stskeeps, yeah, but I might miss something O_o	20:51
* johnx really sleeps		20:51
camel_liu	johnx, Thanks so much for your effort and time on it.	20:51
camel_liu	It's my first day of IRC	20:52
camel_liu	And this is the right place.	20:52
* RST38h should probably release something over the weekend		20:53
camel_liu	Why couldn't find package librsvg2?	20:54
camel_liu	librsvg2-2	20:54
camel_liu	Is it in extra repo of maemo?	20:55
camel_liu	The reference manual says "Start from librsvg installation. One version is available in maemo.org extras repository."	20:59
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camel_liu	Is the package librsvg2-2 in maemo.org extras repository?	21:05
solmumaha	camel_liu: try apt-cache search librsvg	21:07
camel_liu	nothing returned	21:07
solmumaha	seems it's in chinook extras	21:08
camel_liu	When I try 'fakeroot apt-get install librsvg2-2', it returned 'E: Couldn't find package librsvg2-2'	21:08
camel_liu	I followed Diablo's reference manual	21:09
lcuk	camel_liu, would you like me to download the file, print it out place it on a wooden table, photograph it, import it, fax it to you to be imported into Word where you can OCR it and recover the original file? it will probably be quicker than your current attempt	21:09
RST38h	moo, lcuk	21:10
lcuk	hiya rst	21:10
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, could you do that for me please	21:11
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: There's one person outstanding who thumbed down krisse's post but hasn't hearted my post ;-)	21:11
lcuk	of course qwerty12_N800	21:11
qwerty12_N800	hehe	21:11
camel_liu	I'm a freshman not only in maemo, but also in Linux. In fact, I just use Linux (Ubuntu) 4 days and the same with maemo.	21:11
lcuk	camel_liu, i really hope your day gets better with maemo - i realise its first day, but most of the time things are smoother than this	21:12
* lcuk kicks the internet		21:12
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AstralStorm	lcuk: ouch! why did you kick me?	21:14
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lcuk	heh cos you wont download fast enough	21:14
* RST38h is still deciding whether to thumb down Jaffa's post or heart it		21:15
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Jaffa	RST38h: thumb it down then ;-)	21:15
Jaffa	Karma's broken atm anyway	21:15
RST38h	Jaffa: Err on the pessimistic side? =)	21:15
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camel_liu	I try to follow ervery instruction of the reference. But there're so many things beyond it.	21:15
Jaffa	RST38h: life sucks ;-)	21:15
RST38h	I mean, it is obvious that nobody needs another Maemo netbook	21:16
RST38h	But the reasons sound wrong	21:16
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Jaffa	Feel free to comment. I'd've not bothered posting at all if krisse's blog accepted comments; and it was a somewhat rushed post.	21:16
RST38h	I think that the whole reason why we have a "netbook" is because ASUS marketing/engineering lacks imagination	21:17
lcuk	i would like to see nokia/maemo branded software running on the desktop as a companion/manager app for my handheld devices	21:17
AstralStorm	RST38h: but we'll buy the next one anyway if it's so much better	21:17
lcuk	to do the stuff the tablet IS weaker at	21:17
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lcuk	desktop == anything bigger than a tablet	21:17
AstralStorm	lcuk: and it still fails that due to small screen	21:17
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camel_liu	It's 2:16 a.m., and I'd better to go to bed. Thanks erveryone here. I experience my first day in IRC channel, and it's so good and better than google.	21:18
RST38h	So they took their old S100/S200 subnotebook model (very small), cheapened it down to <$400 and sold it with Linux	21:18
AstralStorm	lcuk: almost, tiny laptop is fairly portable	21:18
lcuk	AstralStorm, but a small laptop is not a tablet	21:18
AstralStorm	my categorization is this:	21:18
RST38h	As soon as people found out you could run WinXP on that thing, they did and ASUS had to oblige	21:18
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RST38h	So, the rule of thumb is: If it looks like a laptop, people will EXPECT it to run Windows and Office, no matter how slowly	21:18
lcuk	people dont expect all of itunes interface on their ipod - itunes allows scope for easier management of media than a tiny handheld can give	21:19
AstralStorm	wearable pc < cellphone < tablet < ... some hole ... < netbook/subnotebook < ... large hole ... < portable desktop < desktop	21:19
Jaffa	RST38h: indeed. I've still got a Psion netBook in the drawer next to me	21:19
RST38h	This means death to Moblin and other mobile Linux initiatives on netbooks	21:19
RST38h	Jaffa: But it is no laptop, it is DIFFERENT	21:19
Jaffa	lcuk: absolutely	21:19
RST38h	Same goes for Nokia E90	21:19
RST38h	Or the original Nokia 7710 with what later became Maemo	21:20
AstralStorm	RST38h: except E90 is a cellphone :>	21:20
Jaffa	You just have to look at the failure of the Foleo to know that people want their "netbooks" to be mini-laptops	21:20
lcuk	jaffa :) your media encoder needs a home ;)	21:20
AstralStorm	it's much more portable	21:20
AstralStorm	now, iPhone broke some stereotypes	21:20
RST38h	Astral: yea, among other things :)	21:20
RST38h	iPhone is really a phone, just well made	21:20
AstralStorm	yes	21:20
AstralStorm	while n8x0 is closer to a fully fledged PC	21:20
RST38h	Jaffa: Let us not bring up Foleo or ANYTHING coming from Palm, ok?	21:20
RST38h	These folks are suicidally stupid, period.	21:21
lcuk	+lurk mode, back later	21:21
Jaffa	:)	21:21
AstralStorm	drop in abiword and gnustep... and you could even do some text tasks	21:21
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AstralStorm	not that it'd be convenient	21:21
AstralStorm	more like a stopgap measure	21:21
RST38h	Astral: The moment you claim it is a "PC", all the reviewers out there will ask if it runs Office	21:21
Jaffa	lcuk: maybe not on an N900 (although unless it ships with oodles of storage [and 32GB had been hinted at], transcoding is still useful for saving space)	21:21
RST38h	Astral: So, Nokia never claims it to be a PC	21:21
AstralStorm	which is good	21:22
AstralStorm	it's not one (yet)	21:22
AstralStorm	until it gets 256 MB ram and a shrunk-down OOo	21:22
RST38h	So the idea is not to put Maemo into another small notebook	21:22
AstralStorm	or a comparable office suite (gnome-office anyone?)	21:22
RST38h	It is to put Maemo (or a similar setup) into something like a StarTrek datapad	21:22
AstralStorm	yes	21:22
AstralStorm	this is a niche	21:22
RST38h	And see if this datapad can be effectively used	21:22
lcuk	jaffa, transcoding is still a very practical thing to consider - especially when you consider that HD episodes and movies are here	21:22
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AstralStorm	although it does really well as a laptop	21:22
Jaffa	AstralStorm: and OOo will require a heavily updated UI. Again, hints from the EPOC R5 office apps would be useful.	21:22
RST38h	Small notebooks are also a niche so there is nothing wrong with it	21:22
AstralStorm	and mediocre as datapad	21:23
RST38h	The question is whether this "niche" can be expanded	21:23
Jaffa	RST38h: it'd be cool to have a slightly larger, but thinner and lighter tablet which is just like a Star Trek PADD	21:23
Jaffa	lcuk: that's true	21:23
AstralStorm	Jaffa: no, larger wouldn't be pocketable	21:23
AstralStorm	which means failure	21:23
RST38h	Jaffa: Or four iPhones glued together ;)	21:23
lcuk	and battery life	21:23
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AstralStorm	unless we get a foldable screen	21:23
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RST38h	Big but thin is ok	21:23
RST38h	it is just a little bit dfferent niche	21:24
lcuk	a doublehigh :D http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG	21:24
AstralStorm	RST38h: there are such tablets on market already	21:24
AstralStorm	fairly expensive though	21:24
RST38h	Astral: Yes, but none are practical	21:24
* lcuk is reinserting networking code now :)		21:24
AstralStorm	yes... because they're too large :>	21:24
RST38h	Astral: They usually come with an x86 and Windows, eat through their batteries in <4 hours	21:24
AstralStorm	that too	21:24
RST38h	And even although they are thin, the weight is too much	21:24
AstralStorm	next-gen Intel CPU will be nice though	21:25
RST38h	So, make one <1cm thick and <500g in weight and make it run for 12 hours non stop	21:25
AstralStorm	which means: make n810 with a bigger screen ;P	21:25
RST38h	And call it N999 or whatever	21:25
Jaffa	AstralStorm: as an alongside product with the existingly sized tablets	21:25
RST38h	Better yet: make them in several different sizes, just like datapads	21:26
AstralStorm	make it use 2 batteries (it will probably keep the weight still)	21:26
AstralStorm	haha, that is hard to mass produce	21:26
RST38h	the UI should scale of course	21:26
RST38h	why is it hard to produce?	21:26
AstralStorm	and it should make coffee	21:26
RST38h	You have got a bunch of different standard LCD modules	21:26
lcuk	no, it should have an interface to order coffee	21:26
AstralStorm	yes, you can make like 3 sizes	21:26
RST38h	Order several types of casing, use the same electronics	21:26
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RST38h	In order to enable comfortable touch typing, provide tactile feedback like Nokia does in 5800	21:27
AstralStorm	I would like n900 to use space more efficiently	21:27
Jaffa	This larger tablet is, in some ways, what TechCrunch are allegedly trying to do.	21:27
AstralStorm	n810 has a lot of spare	21:27
RST38h	i.e. make it click and bibrate a little	21:27
AstralStorm	(although cooling is a concern, so is weight)	21:27
Jaffa	RST38h: PeterS hinted at haptic over coffee at the summit.	21:27
AstralStorm	Jaffa: hmmmmh	21:28
RST38h	Jaffa: In 5800 they do it in a dead stupid way	21:28
lcuk	thats a lie! there was no coffee at the summit, only beer! ;)	21:28
RST38h	no extra hw required, just using the vibration feature of the phone	21:28
AstralStorm	RST38h: which eats a lot of power	21:28
RST38h	Astral: for very short amounts of time	21:29
AstralStorm	not really - it adds up	21:29
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RST38h	Astral: and you can really just replace it with clicking	21:29
AstralStorm	yup	21:29
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RST38h	Less comfortabel but will do	21:29
AstralStorm	clicking is there in n810 I think	21:29
AstralStorm	well, keyboard is good	21:29
RST38h	but n810 virtual keyboard is too small	21:29
AstralStorm	screen can do sounds :>	21:29
AstralStorm	virtual? who needs virtual	21:30
RST38h	in bigger size you can make it much better	21:30
AstralStorm	there is a way to make a bigger one	21:30
RST38h	well, I do not expect the datapad to have a real kbd	21:30
AstralStorm	by making it a clamshell	21:30
Jaffa	lcuk: this was at about 08:30 on the Saturday. I think people still had enough beer in their veins ;-)	21:30
lcuk	heh	21:30
AstralStorm	foldable	21:30
RST38h	rollable maybe? ;)	21:30
AstralStorm	nah, there's no way to strengthen such a keyboard	21:30
RST38h	or...mhmmm..screwable	21:31
AstralStorm	it feels bad	21:31
AstralStorm	well, no	21:31
RST38h	I say just make a virtual keyboard on screen and forget aboutit	21:31
RST38h	if it is large and provides SOME feedback, most people will be ok	21:31
AstralStorm	no, they are evil to type	21:31
AstralStorm	and leave smudges	21:31
AstralStorm	and have no ridges to find keys	21:31
lcuk	takes away estate - the 810 might not be perfect kb, but it means i have whole screen to myself	21:31
RST38h	for desktop typing use BT keyboard and place device on a stand	21:31
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AstralStorm	actually, I even find Samsung U700 number keys nice	21:32
AstralStorm	and they're flatter than n810's	21:32
RST38h	lcuk: I will not excuse Nokia for not including a decent d-pad upfront.	21:32
RST38h	No way you can persuade me.	21:32
AstralStorm	they have ridges though	21:32
AstralStorm	yes, it's crap	21:32
lcuk	wouldnt try to - i know everyone is different	21:32
AstralStorm	the dpad should be there	21:32
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AstralStorm	alternatively, two separate selectors	21:32
AstralStorm	like on some cell phones	21:32
lcuk	my nokia sits in a much larger form factor thing most of the time anyway - i have dpad always available	21:32
AstralStorm	there is enough space for 2 buttons and enter	21:33
RST38h	but I guess with bigger touch screens you can provide all this stuff onscreen	21:33
AstralStorm	and some slack space could be salvaged	21:33
RST38h	they have to be really bigger though - something like 12" at least	21:33
lcuk	asus eee touchscreen looks nice	21:33
AstralStorm	RST38h: you can emulate a touchpad	21:33
RST38h	AStorm: I do. It sucks.	21:33
AstralStorm	that will work... call it a scrollpad	21:33
RST38h	Want to know why? =)	21:33
AstralStorm	why?	21:33
lcuk	blue maemo :) connect nokia to nokia	21:34
RST38h	1. No multitouch, so running+shooting does not work in games	21:34
AstralStorm	(what sucks is I have to tap twice to engage it first)	21:34
RST38h	2. Fingers cover 2/3 of the screen	21:34
AstralStorm	yes	21:34
Kegetys	a small scroll wheel would be nice at the top edge of the device, propably wont happen though since the crappy touch screen keyboards etc. are "cool" now	21:34
AstralStorm	but we were talking about larger screen	21:34
RST38h	3. The screen in N8x0 is so damn fragile that pressing on it with your fingers is scary	21:34
lcuk	would have to be larger multitouch	21:34
AstralStorm	yes, scroll wheel or scroll buttons even	21:34
AstralStorm	RST38h: you haven't seen a fragile screen yet	21:35
RST38h	If you give me a 12" solid screen with multitouch, it should be completely fine	21:35
AstralStorm	this one is actually fairly sturdy	21:35
RST38h	AStorm: I have, got one on my desk in the ICNexus devkit	21:35
AstralStorm	I wany my ridges	21:35
AstralStorm	I can't find keys w/o them and mispress	21:35
AstralStorm	we need something like M$ Surface 2	21:35
AstralStorm	with Z axis (limited, but enough)	21:36
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AstralStorm	even 1-bit would be ok	21:36
RST38h	just a better pressure sensitivity should be sufficient	21:36
RST38h	N8x0 appears to have just 3 levels - touched not touched, and touched with your beak, quickly	21:36
lcuk	actually no, theres about 400 distinct levels	21:36
lcuk	just not much uses it	21:37
lcuk	xsp library makes it available :)	21:37
lcuk	but its uncalibrated (though useful)	21:37
Kegetys	and judging from some drawing app I tried it doesnt seem very reliable	21:37
RST38h	Not having any woodpecker DNA, I have no use for those levels	21:37
lcuk	lol	21:37
Kegetys	as in the sensitivity is entirely different depending on which part of the srceen you poke	21:37
RST38h	Kegetys: exactly	21:37
AstralStorm	yes	21:38
AstralStorm	because it's uncalibrated	21:38
AstralStorm	:)	21:38
lcuk	Kegetys, without proper pressure calibration that will happen anyway	21:38
lcuk	and no touchscreen does that ever anywhere	21:38
AstralStorm	someone should write it	21:38
lcuk	temperature changes alter the differentials	21:38
AstralStorm	we have a temp sensor	21:39
AstralStorm	use it	21:39
lcuk	so you could calibrate it right now and it would drift with use	21:39
lcuk	but the part of the screen under the cpu gets hotter	21:39
AstralStorm	yes	21:39
lcuk	and near the wifi	21:39
AstralStorm	you can correct for that	21:39
AstralStorm	both have temp. sensors	21:39
lcuk	and if the battery is in use	21:39
lcuk	or charging	21:39
AstralStorm	did I mention it's all known?	21:39
AstralStorm	just no one wrote it	21:39
lcuk	theres lots of things and for the fractional difference it would make its really not worth it	21:40
AstralStorm	(in part because there's no API)	21:40
lcuk	your fingers themselves give more variance than a tuned touch can clarify	21:40
AstralStorm	well, still better than not tuned	21:40
lcuk	we arent trying to do electron scanning with it	21:40
AstralStorm	it will at least get 3-5 levels	21:40
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AstralStorm	maybe 6	21:41
AstralStorm	which is nice :)	21:41
lcuk	3-5 levels of what? a touchscreen with over 500 levels	21:41
AstralStorm	so what if you get to scale them?	21:41
lcuk	i KNOW you cannot hold it at a particular level yourself	21:41
AstralStorm	to reduce errors, you have to quantize	21:41
RST38h	Gentlemen, N8x0 has uneven touchscreen sensitivity across the screen	21:42
lcuk	what you are suggesting it like trying to grind a chalkboard to the preciion of a telescope mirror	21:42
RST38h	Nothing temp related, just the way they solder those touch screens in	21:42
AstralStorm	that is mostly constant	21:43
AstralStorm	which means it can be calibrated	21:43
RST38h	for example, the right half of the screen in my 810 is noticeably less sensitive than the left side	21:43
AstralStorm	yes, it is	21:43
AstralStorm	here too :)	21:43
RST38h	AStorm: I do not think it is a constant. We have got several tablets at work (few people bought them too)	21:43
lcuk	my right half works, but thats because ive worn the left half down :(	21:43
lcuk	i cant use my touch on main nokia with fingers anymore	21:44
AstralStorm	right bottom corner is the weakest here	21:44
RST38h	And, when looking at the screen surface, they all seem to be bent in slightly different ways	21:44
RST38h	AStorm: yep	21:44
mariorz	is there some way to get 3g internet with any of the tablets?	21:44
lcuk	use a 3g phone	21:44
RST38h	mariorz: Use a 3G phone as uplink	21:44
AstralStorm	mariorz: yes, if you get a modem or a phone	21:44
mariorz	cool	21:44
AstralStorm	3g modem should work with external hub	21:44
AstralStorm	(assuming it works under Linux and you're not afraid of compiling the driver)	21:45
AstralStorm	*works in	21:45
mariorz	but none of the tablets have any kind of port to connect a 3g modem directly?	21:45
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* RST38h asks the Green One to make MTS enable the 3G network before Christmas		21:45
AstralStorm	mariorz: they have an USB hub	21:45
AstralStorm	although with low current (up to 100 mA)	21:46
RST38h	It is beyond bizarre: even freaking Belorussia has got 3G and we haven't	21:46
AstralStorm	so you'll need an external powered hub	21:46
AstralStorm	RST38h: poor you... which country?	21:46
mariorz	AstralStorm: cool, so i jsut need a usb 3g modem? such a thing exists right?	21:46
RST38h	AStorm: .RU	21:46
AstralStorm	I just bought my 3.5G plan	21:46
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, kill beeline	21:46
AstralStorm	ahhh, explains it	21:46
lcuk	marcoil, or you could get an n810w which uses wimax	21:46
AstralStorm	it's because of huge distances	21:46
RST38h	qwerty: ah, who cares about beeline	21:46
lcuk	if thats available nearby	21:46
RST38h	beeline isn't even planning it	21:46
AstralStorm	except it usually isn't	21:47
AstralStorm	wimax has to be specifically deployed	21:47
RST38h	AStorm: Doesn't explain shit. In many senses, local cell providers are better than rest of Europe	21:47
AstralStorm	a good 3.5G modem will work on any cell network	21:47
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AstralStorm	at worst with 2.5G GPRS	21:47
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mariorz	no dice on the wimax here	21:48
AstralStorm	(maybe even plain old TDMA data call)	21:48
AstralStorm	that's the main advantage of cell networks - they have a large degree of backward compatibility	21:48
RST38h	TDMA won't work	21:48
AstralStorm	it will if the modem supports it	21:48
AstralStorm	it's the standard plain old data call	21:48
RST38h	I.e. data calling will work but TDMA will not	21:48
AstralStorm	TDMA is data calling, or sth	21:49
lcuk	mariorz, if you plan on roaming about - the usb modem idea is impractical, look for a phone with bluetooth and a modem that you can tether to	21:49
AstralStorm	or am I mistaken?	21:49
RST38h	AStorm: AMPS	21:49
RST38h	AStorm: TDMA is a previous generation of GSM (which is also TDMA by nature BTW)	21:49
AstralStorm	CDMA is GPRS/EDGE, W-CDMA is UMTS	21:49
RST38h	The data calling over TDMA was called AMPS	21:49
AstralStorm	and HSXPA	21:49
RST38h	AStorm: No	21:49
RST38h	here is how it goes:	21:49
RST38h	Cellular standard: TDMA, media access control: TDMA, data calls: AMPS	21:50
mariorz	lcuk: why is it impractical for roaming?	21:50
AstralStorm	yes	21:50
RST38h	Cellular standard: GSM, media access control: TDMA, data calls: GPRS, EDGE	21:50
AstralStorm	lcuk: no, usb modems are tiny	21:50
AstralStorm	and it will get smaller	21:50
RST38h	Cellular standard: CDMA, media access control: CDMA, data calls: 1xRTT EVDO	21:50
AstralStorm	the only problem is the USB cable	21:50
AstralStorm	:)	21:50
lcuk	because the usb cable has to stick out from behind the kickstand and its ungainly and will pop out and you have ugly thick wires in places you dont need them	21:50
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AstralStorm	RST38h: ahha	21:51
AstralStorm	my mistake	21:51
RST38h	Cellular standard: UMTS (aka 3G), media access control: CDMA, data calls: HSDPA/HSUPA	21:51
mariorz	ducktape takes care of that	21:51
mariorz	i kid	21:51
RST38h	Our local problem here was mainly with the political maneuring for 3G band going for years	21:51
AstralStorm	ahh, the usual junk	21:52
RST38h	Too many interests.	21:52
AstralStorm	here, they bought UMTS for a lot of PLN	21:52
AstralStorm	it was expected to be used... sells fairly mediocre for now	21:52
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AstralStorm	but is on the increase	21:52
RST38h	What are data rates?	21:52
AstralStorm	up to 7.2Mb HSDPA	21:53
AstralStorm	but usually 2.4 is more like it	21:53
AstralStorm	and not too many modems can do even that	21:53
AstralStorm	so you get 1.sth Mb	21:54
AstralStorm	there's no HSUPA yet	21:54
AstralStorm	so 384 kbps upload	21:54
RST38h	what are the prices though?	21:54
AstralStorm	30 Euro for 6GB flatrate + wifi hotspots of Orange	21:54
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RST38h	Urgh...No wonder it is not being used much	21:55
AstralStorm	(there's also a tiny one at half the price, 1GB no hotspots)	21:55
AstralStorm	(and more expensive prepaid one)	21:55
RST38h	is there ome price per MB?	21:55
AstralStorm	for prepaid, yes	21:55
AstralStorm	for postpaid, after the limit, you get bandwidth-cut	21:56
RST38h	ah	21:56
AstralStorm	and there's also standard cell-phone data rate which is prohibitively expensive	21:56
RST38h	The e30 rate also sounds expensive	21:56
AstralStorm	0.07 ec / 100 KB is the standard (or so, it's 0.25 pln)	21:57
AstralStorm	0.07 Euro that it	21:57
AstralStorm	7 ec	21:57
AstralStorm	prepaid is 0.03 PLN / 100 kb	21:57
RST38h	that is rur24.5/MB	21:57
RST38h	yeek	21:58
AstralStorm	postpaid I'd have to calc	21:58
RST38h	prepaid is still rur10.5/mb	21:58
AstralStorm	but it depends on usage	21:58
AstralStorm	postpaid is actually cheaper than all of these	21:58
AstralStorm	and by a wide margin	21:59
RST38h	yes but you are required to pay e30 :)	21:59
AstralStorm	the 30 Euro one amounts to 366 MB prepaid	21:59
AstralStorm	and the 15 Euro one to 100 MB	21:59
AstralStorm	or so	21:59
RST38h	e15 sounds more realistic really	22:00
AstralStorm	yes, but it's 1GB of transfer	22:00
RST38h	nobody is going to download movies over it anyway	22:00
AstralStorm	enough for small data, but any actual usage will go over the limit	22:00
RST38h	and 1GB/month is sufficient for web browsing, chat, ssh, etc	22:00
AstralStorm	why not? it's very fast :P	22:00
AstralStorm	it's not sufficient for web browsing	22:00
RST38h	small screens, small storage, slow cpus, and it is probably not very fast when trasferring a 250MB movie	22:00
AstralStorm	I grab 40-50 MB/day in web use	22:00
AstralStorm	so, it's not that much	22:01
RST38h	AStorm: I grab <300MB/month :)	22:01
AstralStorm	multiply by 31 :>	22:01
AstralStorm	I counted some light downloads	22:01
AstralStorm	like a PDF here, a larger image there	22:01
RST38h	ah	22:02
AstralStorm	that was the average excluding yt and large downloads	22:02
RST38h	btw, I have all ads disabled	22:02
AstralStorm	ads don't eat that much, I checked	22:02
AstralStorm	one ad eats like 10-30 KB	22:02
AstralStorm	if flash, it eats 300 KB, so disable that	22:02
mariorz	anyone recommend a cheap site selling the n810w?	22:03
AstralStorm	an average web site grabs 150 KB	22:03
RST38h	mariorz: froogle.com	22:03
AstralStorm	:)	22:03
RST38h	AStorm: yes but you probably visit same sites anyway?	22:03
AstralStorm	but the most of the cost is not images	22:04
AstralStorm	and n8x0 doesn't cache these well for some reason	22:04
AstralStorm	(maybe because mmc card is so slow?)	22:04
mariorz	what should i searh for? "nokia n810w"?	22:04
mariorz	nada	22:04
AstralStorm	(or sd card)	22:04
AstralStorm	mariorz: nokia n810 wimax	22:04
mariorz	ahh, thanks	22:04
AstralStorm	some idiots sell it for $1000...	22:05
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AstralStorm	it'd have to be gold-plated or have some excellent gps receiver, spare batteries, car charger, mount, all whizbang	22:06
AstralStorm	to be worth anywhere near that amount	22:06
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AstralStorm	median would be $450	22:06
MangoFusion	gold plated....hmm\	22:06
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AstralStorm	RST38h: there's a certain prepaid that is competitive	22:11
AstralStorm	it costs $19 for 1GB	22:11
AstralStorm	uhm, 20 PLN	22:11
AstralStorm	which means 6 GB cost the same 30 Euro	22:12
AstralStorm	but you can grab less :)	22:12
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AstralStorm	Play is running this stunt	22:12
AstralStorm	so, if you only need like 1GB/mo, it will save you a lot of cash	22:13
AstralStorm	unlike Orange's post-paid, it scales linearly (post-paid 12 GB costs 150 PLN, in comparison)	22:15
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RST38h	AStorm: Am I correct to assume that the average white-collar salary is e1000..e2500/month ?	22:18
AstralStorm	country median is 2300 PLN/mo	22:19
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AstralStorm	white collar is too diverse to specify	22:19
AstralStorm	they start from lowly teachers to very well-paid executives	22:20
AstralStorm	and analysts	22:20
AstralStorm	teachers earn under the average (excluding the top of their career)	22:20
RST38h	I mean computer programmers, low-to-middle level management, advertising guys, etc	22:20
AstralStorm	it depends where, but in the capital, I'd expect 5000 PLN	22:20
AstralStorm	just shy of 2000 Euro	22:21
AstralStorm	and that is a very well-paid job	22:21
AstralStorm	as you can see, 2x average	22:21
RST38h	So, e30 just for the data (given that you already have home connection) is too much, right?	22:21
AstralStorm	it is a lot, but not really too much	22:21
AstralStorm	fast net connections cost similar amount	22:22
RST38h	btw does it include 3g voice? =)	22:22
AstralStorm	and aren't mobile	22:22
AstralStorm	3g voice is the default now :P	22:22
AstralStorm	if the phone supports 3G, it is used	22:22
RST38h	so e30/mo buys you voice and 6GB data?	22:22
AstralStorm	as it's less expensive for the operator	22:22
AstralStorm	not exactly	22:22
AstralStorm	30/mo buys you 6GB and some 50-60 PLN refund on voice	22:22
RST38h	oh	22:23
AstralStorm	so you get half of 110 PLN back	22:23
RST38h	so the total cell phone bill comes to something like e50?	22:23
AstralStorm	uhm, no	22:23
AstralStorm	it is at least 25 PLN postpaid flatrate	22:23
AstralStorm	but all that flatrate goes into call	22:24
AstralStorm	so you may call up to 75 PLN of calls	22:24
AstralStorm	w/o incurring costs	22:24
RST38h	complicated	22:24
AstralStorm	not really	22:24
AstralStorm	it means if you don't call, you won't gain	22:24
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AstralStorm	if you do, then you may call more :P	22:24
RST38h	no but here if I do not call I do not pay anything, same for the data	22:24
AstralStorm	on flatrate, here you pay the baseline flatrate at the very least	22:25
RST38h	and the data is something like e0.11/MB	22:25
AstralStorm	oh, normal price!	22:25
AstralStorm	:)	22:25
RST38h	I literally spend <e10/mo on data (of coure it is plain GPRS but who cares as long as Google Reader works)	22:25
AstralStorm	good for you	22:26
AstralStorm	I will use that connection for normal work though	22:26
AstralStorm	so you see how it would soon pass above 2 GB	22:26
RST38h	yea, for normal usage case I would hit ~300-500MB by browsing etc	22:27
AstralStorm	this means I'm actually not having any unlimited broadband	22:27
RST38h	well, my landline connection also has an 11GB cap for out-of-network traffic but I never hit it	22:27
AstralStorm	(except if I sit by their wifi AP :> this is included and unlimited up-to-11 Mbit	22:27
RST38h	Whatever intellectual property (tm) I need to steal is already inside the local network	22:27
AstralStorm	hehehe	22:27
AstralStorm	yes, that is good	22:27
AstralStorm	I don't steal IP, no need for that	22:28
AstralStorm	MSDNAA is good ;P	22:28
RST38h	Well, I sometimes do watch a movie or two	22:28
AstralStorm	that I don't have to download ;P	22:28
AstralStorm	or even if, I won't dl more than a few a month	22:28
RST38h	Aside from that, no much use: I do not do 3d gaming, etc	22:28
AstralStorm	and HD quality is lost anyway on my laptop, so... :P	22:29
AstralStorm	(1280x800 is HD, but then... no reason why I can't watch the movie in DVD quality)	22:29
RST38h	1280x800 I can watch on TV, if my media PC does not choke on it of course	22:30
AstralStorm	:)	22:30
AstralStorm	anyway, that data plan is excellent and will suffice for all my work	22:31
AstralStorm	I had 512/128 limited to 5G once	22:31
RST38h	If it acts as you landline then indeed	22:31
AstralStorm	and it worked well	22:31
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AstralStorm	(that was crummy cable - but it was half the price ;> )	22:31
RST38h	e30..e50 isn't much money if it covers ALL connectivity needs	22:31
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AstralStorm	well, you can get landline for E30 of 4Mbit/1Mbit, cable	22:32
AstralStorm	but it can't reach here	22:32
AstralStorm	unlimited, 3 IPs	22:32
* RST38h pays around $15 for 100Mbaud bidirectional		22:33
AstralStorm	mmmh	22:33
AstralStorm	maybe I should learn Russian	22:33
RST38h	Outer world is connected to it via 4Mbaud though	22:33
AstralStorm	ahha	22:33
AstralStorm	so it's the same :)	22:33
AstralStorm	although much cheaper	22:33
RST38h	if I have to go outside then yes but all the heavy IP crap is already sucked in =)	22:33
RST38h	They won't give me dedicated IP unless I run VPN though, so it is all behind NAT	22:34
AstralStorm	academic link? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)	22:34
RST38h	no, the usual stuff, handled by Golden Telecom I think	22:34
AstralStorm	hmmh	22:34
AstralStorm	ah, it's Russia again	22:35
AstralStorm	no IP is safe there	22:35
RST38h	it is just that the city itself has been wired optically for years now	22:35
AstralStorm	oh, that kind of MAN would be very nice to have	22:35
AstralStorm	nothing like it here	22:35
RST38h	not every spot, but most	22:35
AstralStorm	they are thinking about building such a MAN on WiMax	22:35
AstralStorm	but I suspect 4G will come first	22:35
RST38h	2-3 WiMax installaitons here as well	22:35
RST38h	None mobile though, AFAIK	22:36
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AstralStorm	RST38h: as to that post-paid - earlier you could grab a cellphone with a very tiny baseline voice postpaid rate	22:36
AstralStorm	like 5 PLN	22:37
AstralStorm	not now anymore it seems	22:37
RST38h	That is how it seems to work in .LT	22:37
AstralStorm	I pay 35 mine	22:37
RST38h	Here too - a SIM card costs you around $7 and this money goes directly onto your account	22:37
AstralStorm	maybe I'll switch to 25 later	22:37
AstralStorm	after a year	22:37
RST38h	The only difference is that they require your passport here	22:38
AstralStorm	it's the same here ,that base rate goes to your account	22:38
RST38h	In .LT you can buy SIM card at the supermarket register	22:38
AstralStorm	they require a passport, drivers licence or identity card	22:38
AstralStorm	and a way of proving you can pay	22:38
RST38h	Nothing like that here - if you can't pay, the phone goes dormant =)	22:39
AstralStorm	can be: gas bill, bank account <list?>, media bill, such	22:39
qwerty12_N800	uk ftw	22:39
AstralStorm	here too, but that's needed if you get a subsidized phone	22:39
qwerty12_N800	http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/free-pay-as-you-go-sim-cards/	22:39
AstralStorm	not if you pay fully for the phone	22:39
RST38h	No subsidized phones here, afaik	22:40
kkrusty	qwerty12_N800: you use tmobile?	22:40
AstralStorm	qwerty12_N800: we have that here too, like Orange Mix	22:40
RST38h	And every blonde on the subway has an iPhone now :)	22:40
RST38h	(it was N95 before)	22:40
AstralStorm	but you can't get that data flatrate with it	22:40
qwerty12_N800	kkrusty, yeah, was on orange before	22:40
AstralStorm	you can get data prepaid though	22:40
RST38h	qwerty: Looks ok except for SMS rates, but I guess they do not have specials?	22:41
RST38h	like "3 family member numbers at 5p/minute rate"?	22:41
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, their sms rates are brilliant. one of their plans has 3p texts	22:42
AstralStorm	3p... nice	22:42
AstralStorm	but mine is the equivalent in gr (0.01 PLN)	22:42
RST38h	qwerty: That is where it is important to remember that there are ICQ clients for mobiles ;)	22:42
AstralStorm	and it also takes from base rate :)	22:42
RST38h	qwerty: And those are charged per megabyte ;)	22:43
AstralStorm	and I get a bunch of free texts too	22:43
orifice	is mplayer's speed nominally slow for a standard def xvid file ?	22:43
AstralStorm	or can buy a pack of discounted texts	22:43
* RST38h never texts: it is easier to either run ICQ or login via SSH and use IRC		22:43
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, people i know don't use icq (doubt they have heard of it either) but you can bet they are texting all the time	22:44
RST38h	orifice: yes	22:44
AstralStorm	orifice: no, it's ok if the resolution isn't too high	22:44
AstralStorm	600x380 will work ok	22:44
orifice	ok	22:44
orifice	no 640x480 though ?	22:44
AstralStorm	assuming you don't use some advanced features like qpel	22:44
AstralStorm	640x388 max afaicr	22:44
RST38h	qwerty: Bad habit, start proselytizing now!	22:44
AstralStorm	but that's due to LCD driver	22:44
orifice	I was just going to ask what the bottle neck is	22:44
AstralStorm	the CPU use is ok even at 700-something	22:45
RST38h	orifice: CPU, display subsystem	22:45
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, i don't use icq either, irc & msn for me :p	22:45
AstralStorm	CPU is usually powerful enough for anything except H.324	22:45
RST38h	AStorm: If CPU is missing frames (and it does) it is not ok :(	22:45
RST38h	qwerty: move them to msn then	22:45
AstralStorm	it very rarely does, yes, at DVD resolution	22:45
RST38h	irc is knda hardcore	22:45
AstralStorm	on high-motion	22:45
qwerty12_N800	AstralStorm, doesn't help that it's connected with low speed serial interface too :(	22:46
RST38h	dunno, mises frames terribly on my tablet	22:46
AstralStorm	yes, LCD driver is slow :)	22:46
AstralStorm	mine doesn't	22:46
AstralStorm	but it depends on the movie	22:46
RST38h	time to upload new VGB to extras	22:46
AstralStorm	there's also the problem that SD cards / MMC chip aren't fast	22:46
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, actually, people on 3 (main 3g network here) get free msn	22:46
AstralStorm	you can get up to 1 MB/s	22:46
AstralStorm	from SD card	22:47
BugBlue	ah	22:47
RST38h	qwerty: they also get packet filtering then?	22:47
BugBlue	gpsd on maemo 4.1 doesn't report M=2 anymore	22:47
AstralStorm	M=2? what is that?	22:47
BugBlue	2 = good for latitude/longitude	22:47
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, probably, but it's free, who complains? :p	22:47
BugBlue	3 = good for altitude/climb too	22:47
AstralStorm	uhm, it does report that	22:47
AstralStorm	I checked, it sometimes grabs a 2D fix	22:48
RST38h	qwerty: No, if they get packet filtering and can't freely ue TCP/IP apps, then I would care	22:48
BugBlue	not via gps_saver	22:48
AstralStorm	hmm, maybe there not	22:48
AstralStorm	that'd be a bug	22:48
BugBlue	let's replace the new gpsd with the old one	22:48
AstralStorm	(and see stuff break?)	22:48
BugBlue	I have 2 N810's here almost at the same place	22:48
AstralStorm	no, diablo slightly improved lock speeds	22:48
BugBlue	AstralStorm: maybe, maybe not...	22:48
RST38h	Slightly?	22:48
AstralStorm	yes	22:48
AstralStorm	on cold fix	22:48
AstralStorm	on hot fix, a lot :)	22:49
BugBlue	a little bit...	22:49
RST38h	If you have previous data, AGPS will lock about 3 times faster for me	22:49
BugBlue	but I don't worry about that	22:49
AstralStorm	RST38h: AGPS is nonexistent here	22:49
qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, (ouch). build chinook's osso-gpsd in diablo sdk at least	22:49
BugBlue	AGPS is real faster, but I have gps on 24/7	22:49
BugBlue	qwerty12_N800: we'll see :P	22:49
RST38h	AStorm: Hehe, it is not THAT agps :)	22:49
AstralStorm	ah, you mean that one where ephemeris is stored?	22:49
RST38h	AStorm: Tablet AGPS is not the same as the real AGPS	22:49
AstralStorm	yes, that's the main stuff	22:49
AstralStorm	that's why hot fixes are so fast now	22:50
RST38h	AStorm: Yes, this one lets you pinpoint your location on the map and loads metadata off a web server	22:50
AstralStorm	(and some cold too, if ephemeris is fresh)	22:50
AstralStorm	RST38h: how?!	22:50
AstralStorm	tell me, how to do that	22:50
RST38h	AStorm: You did not know? :)	22:50
AstralStorm	as I mentioned, I have a plan	22:50
AstralStorm	:)	22:50
BugBlue	Nokia-N810-50-2:~# scp /usr/sbin/gpsd root@192.168.2.252:/usr/sbin/gpsd	22:50
RST38h	AStorm: Ok, go to app manager and install AGPS beta app	22:50
BugBlue	let's see what happens..	22:50
AstralStorm	RST38h: mhm, thanks!	22:50
qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, btw, did you find my aircrack-ng build? :)	22:50
BugBlue	qwerty12_N800: I didn't yet.. I didn't look for aircrack-ng yet...	22:51
RST38h	AStorm: then run it and try finding your location there (good to know your lat lon beforehand though)	22:51
BugBlue	where did you hide it?	22:51
RST38h	AStorm: Save location, run Mapper, see what happens	22:51
AstralStorm	RST38h: how precise I have to be with lat/lon?	22:51
qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, hehe, internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=190941	22:51
AstralStorm	because I know +/- 10 meters	22:51
AstralStorm	(can just point it on map and copy)	22:52
RST38h	AStorm: anything in ~100km circle will do	22:52
AstralStorm	also, why it's not integrated with mapper yet?	22:52
RST38h	It does not have to be	22:52
AstralStorm	it could ask you to pick approx. location	22:52
RST38h	This little app simply stores location somewhere in config files	22:52
AstralStorm	mhmh	22:53
AstralStorm	but what if location changes more than 100 km?	22:53
RST38h	And Diablo GPSD will use it AND your network connection to fetch ephemeris etc	22:53
AstralStorm	:)	22:53
RST38h	AStorm: It will keep track of your location	22:53
AstralStorm	if the gps is off too?	22:53
AstralStorm	impossible ;P	22:53
RST38h	not in that case	22:53
RST38h	so let us hope you do not travel that far often	22:53
AstralStorm	yes, that's why it'd be nice to have some support in mapper	22:53
AstralStorm	I do, by a train	22:54
l7	hrm, bluetooth keyboard support seems to be much better in Diablo	22:54
AstralStorm	not too often though	22:54
RST38h	mapper will make use of it	22:54
AstralStorm	I mean, some support for picking that location	22:54
RST38h	Actually, I think even 300km will do the job but you are free to experiment	22:54
l7	i remember in chinook it would type like thisssss	22:54
RST38h	l7: Feels exactly the same to me	22:54
AstralStorm	like, "point somewhere estimated where you are"	22:54
RST38h	still slow, laggy, and repeats letters	22:54
AstralStorm	and then it feeds the data to AGPSd	22:54
RST38h	AStorm: That is what that AGPS app is for	22:54
BugBlue	oke now I have to wait for a GPS fix, a real one...	22:54
RST38h	AStorm: That is exactly what it does	22:55
l7	RST38h: it still repeats letters for you?	22:55
AstralStorm	RST38h: but it doesn't show you the map, does it?	22:55
RST38h	AStorm: It does	22:55
AstralStorm	mmmmh	22:55
RST38h	install and try it	22:55
l7	i guess i get it a little now, but much less	22:55
* RST38h would actually get this information from the clock app but Nokia decided differently		22:55
RST38h	l7: yep	22:55
l7	is there a way to slow the repeat rate?	22:55
RST38h	that is kbd dependent I think	22:56
l7	RST38h: which keyboard do you have?	22:56
RST38h	Apple	22:56
BugBlue	AstralStorm: the problem it seems to have is that it doesn't feed the 2D (less accurate but much often updated) data if you also have 3D data (takes more time to compute and it's that much updated)	22:56
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l7	oh	22:56
l7	RST38h: the thin aluminum one?	22:56
AstralStorm	BugBlue: ahha!	22:56
AstralStorm	that's a bug, report please	22:56
RST38h	yep	22:56
l7	i was thinking of getting that one to use with my tablet, perhaps i shouldn't then	22:56
BugBlue	I replaced the gps_saver with the old version, doesn't help.. I replaced the gps driver, didn't fix it	22:56
BugBlue	not I hope that replacing gpsd would fix it	22:56
AstralStorm	it might	22:57
BugBlue	than it makes sense to do diff, fix it and post a patch	22:57
AstralStorm	RST38h: the app is in maemo-devel?	22:57
RST38h	AStorm: should be in plain extras	22:57
AstralStorm	ok	22:57
RST38h	lemme check	22:57
BugBlue	AstralStorm: but I can tell if I get a fix in a few minutes...	22:57
AstralStorm	BugBlue: :)	22:58
BugBlue	(however maybe I should put my N810 outside instead before the window, that would speed things up, except my beer drinking...)	22:58
RST38h	app name is agps-ui	22:58
BugBlue	mmm... faster code fix or more beer...	22:58
AstralStorm	BugBlue: I recommend telling Maemo Bugs about that	22:58
AstralStorm	they should promptly fix it	22:58
AstralStorm	btw, someone could rebuild xournal	22:59
BugBlue	AstralStorm: I'd rather search the problem first.. maybe it's some ignorant setting from me somewhere...	22:59
AstralStorm	as the version in extras is ubercrashy	22:59
RST38h	the devel version of xournal is crashy	22:59
RST38h	the extras version is fine	22:59
AstralStorm	yes yes	22:59
AstralStorm	extras is -chinook one?	22:59
AstralStorm	I'll check	22:59
RST38h	the devel version is some experimental shitpile	22:59
AstralStorm	mhm	22:59
AstralStorm	it should be axed then	22:59
AstralStorm	known broken	22:59
RST38h	it is devel, whaddayawant?	22:59
AstralStorm	no broken stuff :)	23:00
AstralStorm	it's as simple as rm	23:00
AstralStorm	so, this AGPS is like QuickGPSFix of TomTom :)	23:01
RST38h	Better bug the author to finish it	23:01
AstralStorm	excellent thing	23:01
AstralStorm	RST38h: that too	23:01
AstralStorm	but he should axe the non-working version as well	23:01
AstralStorm	hmm	23:02
AstralStorm	this A-GPS map has too large scale	23:02
AstralStorm	very hard to pick Poland ;P	23:02
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AstralStorm	RST38h: will the mapper now use it if it's set to Bluetooth? :)	23:03
RST38h	AStorm: with external gps? no :)	23:04
RST38h	the map sucks, I know, go by lat lon	23:04
RST38h	As you already set up your city in the clock settings, they could just initialize agps with that for starters	23:05
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AstralStorm	seems it does, I got 9 sats in field	23:05
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BugBlue	mmm	23:11
BugBlue	I accidently deleted about 1.000.000 records of gps log :P	23:12
BugBlue	in my database	23:12
BugBlue	... thank god for backups ...	23:12
RST38h	Ok, whoever wants the hot new version of VGB, it is at http://fms.komkon.org/VGB/	23:12
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RST38h	Will appear in the Extras on Monday, if Cthulhu is merciful	23:13
qwerty12_N800	thanks, need it to play cokemon :)	23:13
RST38h	This is VGB (not VGBA) so your cokemon will be somewhat oldskool	23:14
AstralStorm	almost violating two trademarks at once... brilliant	23:14
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, i know but the jokes still get me :/	23:14
RST38h	two trademark violations and a reference to controlled substance	23:15
RST38h	are you sure this is still safe in the UK? =)	23:15
AstralStorm	ok, now I get much better signal from sats, almost got 2D fix now	23:16
qwerty12_N800	i've probably revealed worse on this channel :p	23:16
AstralStorm	good thing	23:16
AstralStorm	(and it's a first time cold fix)	23:16
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RST38h	don't tell me you are outside, in October, at 23:18	23:17
AstralStorm	but that gpsd bug indeed is visible :>	23:17
RST38h	and using irc	23:17
AstralStorm	RST38h: no, it's by the window	23:17
AstralStorm	behind it even	23:17
AstralStorm	closed	23:17
RST38h	that's probably suboptimal...	23:17
AstralStorm	yup	23:17
AstralStorm	but it means this thing is golden	23:17
RST38h	yea, there is some golden plating on that TI turd now...	23:18
RST38h	what is the gpsd bug btw?	23:18
AstralStorm	not on TI	23:18
RST38h	in plain english?	23:18
AstralStorm	RST38h: that it doesn't send 2D data it can get from TI chip much more often than 3D data	23:18
RST38h	The 5300 GPS chip in the tablets is TI	23:18
AstralStorm	it did before	23:18
RST38h	Oh, it ignores 2D fixes?	23:19
AstralStorm	it seems	23:19
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AstralStorm	I mean, it makes use of them, sends them if no 3D fix is available	23:19
AstralStorm	but not otherwise	23:19
RST38h	isn't that ok?	23:19
AstralStorm	no	23:19
AstralStorm	because 2D fix send rate is higher	23:19
AstralStorm	:)	23:19
AstralStorm	this means the 2D fix is less precise now than before	23:20
RST38h	ah, so if there are 2d fix changes between 3d fixes, they are ignored?	23:20
AstralStorm	yes	23:20
RST38h	well, it is less problematic than I tought...	23:20
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AstralStorm	still bad :)	23:21
AstralStorm	affects accuracy	23:21
AstralStorm	anyway, seems like I can only grab 2 sats out of this window ;P	23:21
RST38h	notice that it is not the window you have to worry about but the walls on all the other sides :)	23:21
RST38h	there is 75% chance the other satellites are there somewhere	23:22
AstralStorm	I checked	23:22
AstralStorm	they are too much above me	23:22
BugBlue	AstralStorm: my problem is that with the old data I can do this: http://clamans.mobach.nl/viewer/?saved=4a3c14ce79d03da8ed72bbb8cb6be653 and the new looks like: http://clamans.mobach.nl/viewer/?saved=268727bf5936f40be0a15707fdbebc8a	23:22
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AstralStorm	I get about 45 degree view horizontal, 60 vertical	23:23
BugBlue	mm old gps_saver, old gpsd, old gpsdriver... problem not solved	23:23
AstralStorm	BugBlue: report it please, I can't fix it :)	23:23
BugBlue	AstralStorm: I know..	23:23
AstralStorm	wrong, 90 degree horizontal, 120 degree vertical	23:24
AstralStorm	so, if I rotate the receiver some, I should catch another sat	23:25
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AstralStorm	blah, why didn't nokia expose that GPS antenna... I could attach something better	23:26
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AstralStorm	there is an actual mini-something pin socket inside	23:27
AstralStorm	so you could have an external antenna	23:27
AstralStorm	(for wifi too)	23:28
BugBlue	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.FL <-- that one?	23:29
AstralStorm	better than 3 cm strip of gold	23:29
AstralStorm	yes, that one	23:29
BugBlue	that's a nice standard... you really do have antennas for it :D	23:30
BugBlue	LOL	23:31
BugBlue	RP-SMA connectors are widely used by Wi-Fi equipment manufacturers to comply with specific local regulations, e.g. the FCC, which are designed to make it difficult for consumers to connect antennas with gain and thereby breach compliance	23:31
BugBlue	I do like the FCC	23:31
AstralStorm	it doesn't matter for GPS	23:32
AstralStorm	all it needs is a large antenna with wide sight	23:32
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AstralStorm	selectivity doesn't have to be too high	23:33
RST38h	Like your body for example...	23:33
AstralStorm	no, body can't receive these frequencies	23:33
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AstralStorm	they're absorbed by water	23:33
AstralStorm	or at least distorted	23:33
RST38h	you have got skin and whatever is inside skin	23:34
AstralStorm	that's why cloudy sky isn't good ;P	23:34
AstralStorm	which is 80% water?	23:34
AstralStorm	;P	23:34
RST38h	in this case we are talking about skin surface only	23:34
AstralStorm	not really	23:34
RST38h	well it depends on how wet your skin is	23:34
AstralStorm	it doesn't conduct well anyway	23:34
RST38h	check out cases where people get hit by lightning	23:34
AstralStorm	wet will screen GPS signal and not conduct	23:35
RST38h	lightning usually goes through skin only	23:35
AstralStorm	ok, now it has 6 sats :>	23:35
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AstralStorm	signal levels are just above 20 though	23:36
AstralStorm	which is weak	23:36
AstralStorm	it should grab fix, now has 7 sats	23:36
AstralStorm	blah, I should just buy a good GPS receiver	23:38
AstralStorm	any recommendations? (small size and long battery life are much appreciated)	23:39
BugBlue	I once bought the cheapest once..	23:39
BugBlue	not even SIRF3	23:39
BugBlue	FOUND IT!	23:39
BugBlue	it's libgps	23:39
AstralStorm	:>	23:39
AstralStorm	ok, excellent	23:40
AstralStorm	now, report ASAP :)	23:40
BugBlue	hang on	23:40
BugBlue	I do want to move the other software back first	23:40
BugBlue	to be 100% sure	23:40
RST38h	AStorm: I have got a tiny Holux	23:40
RST38h	SIRFIII based, works.	23:40
AstralStorm	are MTK recvs good?	23:40
RST38h	But don't expect it to work inside buildings	23:40
RST38h	MTK is cheap and widepread right now	23:40
RST38h	Some say it is better than SIRF but I would stay with SIRF	23:40
RST38h	Just because for MTK it is just one direction (they produce DVD, MP3, etc chips) while SIRF is GPS specific	23:41
BugBlue	rebooting my N810 for the Xth time... :D	23:41
AstralStorm	RST38h: 20h battery life sure is sexy	23:42
AstralStorm	it would be even better if that recv supported USB charging	23:42
AstralStorm	my car has ports	23:42
RST38h	Holux 240 supports USB charging	23:42
AstralStorm	or even 32hr :)	23:44
AstralStorm	http://www.buygpsnow.com/Qstarz-BT-Q890-Super-High-66-CH-Nano-Bluetooth-GPS-Receiver-%2866-ch-MTK--1-5Hz-User-Configurable--Dual-USBBluetooth%29__1006.aspx	23:44
AstralStorm	12h, but at what size... excellent sensitivity too :>	23:44
RST38h	looks bigger than Holux	23:46
RST38h	but more versatile	23:46
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AstralStorm	bigger than this one?	23:53
AstralStorm	http://www.buygpsnow.com/Holux_M241_Bluetooth_GPS_Datalogger.aspx	23:53
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