IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2008-10-24

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l7	hmm, i just noticed something about time	00:02
l7	"time cp" is much faster than "time mv"	00:03
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l7	i guess mv goes back to verify the data or something	00:03
johnx	well it also goes back to delete the other data	00:03
johnx	but yes, I could be convinced it's somehow more careful	00:04
l7	is there some kind of data verification in mv?	00:04
johnx	maybe?	00:04
l7	hmm	00:04
l7	my disk activity graph goes straight up to 5MB/s and hits a plateau	00:05
l7	with cp	00:05
l7	with mv, it hits some 4MB/s spikes, but mostly lives around 700KB/s	00:06
l7	interesting anyway	00:06
l7	24 seconds for mv compared to 3 seconds for cp	00:07
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johnx	interesting	00:09
johnx	I always assumed they were basically the same thing for disk to disk transfers	00:10
johnx	I guess that's why everyone just does cp && rm ...	00:10
l7	yeah	00:10
l7	i wonder if there's any advantages to using mv's verification feature if that is what it is doing	00:10
l7	maybe there's better ways to verify though	00:11
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Stskeeps	mv inside same fs or other?	00:11
Bilaw	I found the wiki.maemo pages on updating my firmware (I use Ubuntu), but I get an error message: "./flasher-3.0" not found. Can anyone help?	00:12
l7	from HFS+ to FAT32	00:12
Stskeeps	Bilaw: did you download flasher-3.0 from tablets-dev.nokia.com?	00:12
Stskeeps	or -static	00:12
Bilaw	(silly me!) Er... in a matter of minutes... Where should I shove it, once downloaded?	00:13
Stskeeps	doesn't matter, anywhere but a fat32 file system	00:13
Stskeeps	:P	00:13
Stskeeps	or a place with noexec	00:13
l7	hmm, maybe macs aren't the best platforms to test read / write speeds with this Spotlight's annoying indexing	00:14
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Bilaw	Er... My terminal says: sudo: ./flasher-3.0.amd64: command not found...	00:19
Bilaw	(I was in the Desktop directory)	00:20
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johnx	you need to be in the same directory you put that file in	00:20
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Bilaw	I cd'ed ~/Bureau...	00:21
johnx	ok, so you downloaded flasher-3.0.amd64, you put it in ~/Bureau, then you cd'ed to Bureau?	00:22
Fatal	Bilaw: chmod +x flasher-3.0.amd64	00:23
Bilaw	yes, johnx	00:23
Bilaw	OK, Fatal	00:23
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Bilaw	(... Suitable USB device found, waiting...). Thank you, gentlemen!	00:24
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Bilaw	(Still waiting... Should I worry now, or postpone worrying?)	00:26
mgedmin	still waiting?	00:30
Bilaw	Yes mgedmin...	00:31
Bilaw	I s'ppose that is not good?	00:31
mgedmin	how did you run flasher?	00:31
Bilaw	the N810 does not seem to be doing anything, either...	00:31
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mgedmin	I mean, what was the exact command line?	00:31
Bilaw	sudo ./flasher-3.0.amd64 -F RX-44_DIABLO_4.2008.23-14_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R	00:31
mgedmin	hmm	00:32
mgedmin	oh, are you sure you quoted the message correctly?	00:32
mgedmin	perhaps it was "Suitable USB device not found, waiting..."?	00:32
Bilaw	(it did launch a whole bucnh of "images"... but the last message asked me to wait, and here we are, about 4 mn later!	00:32
l7	hmm, anyone know why there seems to be so little activity on the internettablet wiki?	00:32
Bilaw	Holly mackerel, youre right!	00:32
mgedmin	was there a green progress bar on the screen of your n810?	00:32
Bilaw	OK. Back from scratch, mgedmin: it does say USB NOT found.	00:33
mgedmin	ahh ok	00:33
mgedmin	that's good	00:33
mgedmin	the next step is to turn on the n810	00:33
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qwerty12_N800	l7, it's all about wiki.maemo.org :p	00:33
Bilaw	(I swear I am not usually this dense...)	00:33
mgedmin	if it is already on, turn it off, unplug from charger, plug in usb cable, turn it on	00:33
mgedmin	then the flasher will notice it as it boots up	00:33
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l7	qwerty12_N800: ah, well as long as there's one active wiki, i am happy	00:34
johnx	qwerty12_N800, which is down right now :/	00:34
Bilaw	(don't talk, people, I need to copy and paste what mgedmin juste said!)	00:34
l7	johnx: ouch, so i see	00:34
qwerty12_N800	johnx, maemo.org servers suck balls, what can i say :/	00:35
l7	bleh, is it possible to export to the wiki to some other hosting site?	00:35
l7	assuming all the contributions are CC licensed or whatever	00:35
l7	though it was moinmoin wiki from what i recall, and i don't remember too many free moinmoin hosts	00:36
Bilaw	... Finishing Flashing... done	00:37
Bilaw	It looks like it is all correct, mgedmin!	00:37
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l7	man, archive.org didn't index the maemo wiki much	00:37
Bilaw	Well, many thanks, johnx, Fatal, and mgedmin!	00:38
johnx	sure :)	00:38
Bilaw	Now, another question: is it as complicated to install applications from my PC, given that I have no wifi connection available?	00:39
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l7	hmm, it's a bit less than ideal i think	00:41
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Stskeeps	Bilaw: look into usbnet..	00:41
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mgedmin	or transfer them to the memory card one-by-one	00:43
mgedmin	doing painful manual dependency tracking	00:43
mgedmin	tedious and painful	00:43
mgedmin	and boring	00:43
lcuk	how many people sit here with their n800 in front of them along with a desktop machine?	00:43
mgedmin	do laptops count?	00:44
* johnx raises his hand		00:44
lcuk	yes certainly	00:44
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Stskeeps	lcuk: on the side, though a laptop	00:44
Bilaw	hm... hours and hours of forthcoming fun, as we say here, Stskeeps	00:44
mgedmin	everyone who is flashing a new os image?	00:44
Khertan_n810	and if i m not sit count ?	00:44
Stskeeps	Bilaw: it's kinda simple under ubuntu.. it's on the very slow wiki on how to do it :P	00:44
lcuk	can you do the inverse of bluemaemo - and use your laptop keyboard with maemo - simply without the whole vnc thing - just make your laptop app ear as a keyboard for n800	00:45
mgedmin	it's called ssh	00:45
lcuk	not quite the same	00:45
mgedmin	not really...	00:45
lcuk	im thinking within gui apps	00:45
Stskeeps	lcuk: synergy	00:45
mgedmin	I was looking for a vnc server running on maemo once	00:45
Bilaw	I'm lost, Stskeeps: whats the very slow wiki?	00:45
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Stskeeps	Bilaw: wiki.maemo.org	00:45
qwerty12_N800	mgedmin, x11vnc?	00:45
Bilaw	I'll go look it up	00:45
lcuk	Stskeeps, ive heard about that, but only seen it using mouse	00:45
mgedmin	qwerty12_N800: is it in extras?	00:46
Fatal	lcuk: synergy worked fine for me with both mouse and keyboard	00:46
mgedmin	lcuk: synergy (or the equivalent x2x, x2vnc and mango-lassi) is nice	00:46
mgedmin	it redirects your keystrokes to the machine where your shared cursor is at the moment	00:46
lcuk	well then one step further, can bluemaemo work from tablet to tablet? ( i assume it could?)	00:47
Stskeeps	http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=236140&postcount=26 <- kinda scary long post	00:47
qwerty12_N800	mgedmin, no :(. i actually built the latest version from cvs but never got round to debianising it. right now a dodgy deb lies somewhere in my /scratchbox...	00:47
lcuk	just based on this: http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG	00:47
Stskeeps	what is it qole uses in easy debian again? xephyr?	00:48
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, two cents? more like $20 :p	00:49
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Stskeeps	i just kinda wonder if "normal apps" in xephyr could help the issue of non-hildon apps	00:50
Stskeeps	i mean	00:50
Stskeeps	if it's possible to make xephyr do scrolling, maybe in a kinetic fashion, that'd be excellent for integrating non-hildon apps into hildon	00:50
Stskeeps	that'd give you access to normal apps without issues	00:51
Stskeeps	or maybe it changes resolution dynamically	00:51
Stskeeps	:P	00:51
Stskeeps	.. am i ranting or is this a good idea?	00:51
johnx	Stskeeps, that is a pretty impressive wishlist. I think I wrote one for santa like that when I was a kid...	00:51
Stskeeps	yeah	00:52
Stskeeps	i think he just summarized iTT through the last year	00:52
l7	qwerty12_N800: thanks, rootsh worked like a charm :)	00:52
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qwerty12_N800	l7, no problems :D	00:52
l7	i'm a bit surprised the n800 only supports 8 character passwords though	00:52
Stskeeps	saves memory	00:52
Stskeeps	!	00:52
Stskeeps	:P	00:52
l7	heh	00:52
l7	is there any way to improve that?	00:52
l7	i guess it's not like i'm using it for a webserver	00:52
l7	though it would make a cool server	00:53
johnx	wait, which password?	00:55
l7	the root password	00:55
Stskeeps	no comment from anyone about my embed a non-hildon app in hildon by embedding it in a hildon window and using kinetic scrolling to scroll to the invisible parts? :P	00:55
johnx	I just set it to a 10 char password...	00:56
l7	does it work if you only type 8?	00:56
lcuk	Stskeeps, all i can think of is liqbase, but that involves writing your own software from scratch :)	00:56
johnx	l7, let me check	00:56
qwerty12_N800	johnx likes living dangerously	00:56
l7	Enter the new password (minimum of 5, maximum of 8 characters)	00:56
l7	heh	00:56
Stskeeps	lcuk: liqwm	00:56
Stskeeps	that'd really be excellent though	00:57
johnx	Stskeeps, seems like it would use lots of resources and present some real challenges to deal with click+drag in apps	00:57
Stskeeps	johnx: true	00:57
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* Stskeeps puts it in his idea bag for hibernation		00:57
johnx	l7, nope. won't let me in with the first 8	00:57
Stskeeps	now why on bloody earth does dpkg-buildpackage of glibc test all iconv charsets?	00:57
johnx	where did you see the "less than 8 bit"?	00:57
l7	login as root and type passwd	00:58
Bilaw	having read a little of the USB networking, my answer is: not now, Stskeeps!	00:58
Stskeeps	pft.	00:58
Bilaw	But I'll sure keep this in mind!	00:58
johnx	l7, I just did ...	00:58
l7	what did it say?	00:58
johnx	l7, just enter new UNIX password:	00:58
l7	weird...	00:58
* lcuk puts it in his idea bag as well :)		00:58
l7	that's it?	00:58
l7	i got:	00:58
l7	Changing password for user	00:58
l7	Enter the new password (minimum of 5, maximum of 8 characters)	00:58
l7	Please use a combination of upper and lower case letters and numbers.	00:58
l7	looks the same for root	00:59
johnx	l7, I just remembered. the n800 is booted into debian :)	00:59
l7	i'm pretty sure i'm patched to the most recent version too	00:59
l7	aaah :)	00:59
* johnx should get some sleep		00:59
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l7	heh	00:59
johnx	that's what I get for long running ssh sessions with the screen off	00:59
macoute	heh	00:59
Stskeeps	johnx: one thing im wondering about is if you can apply a trick you can do on normal xorg.. the thing with cursor in the edge moving to the bigger virtual screen	00:59
l7	how's debian running on your n800?	01:00
Stskeeps	if that's possible with the newer omapfb driver	01:00
johnx	Stskeeps, yeah, but I think all the "scrollable" area resides on the framebuffer, unless I'm confused	01:00
johnx	(very possibly confused)	01:00
Stskeeps	glibc.. "Testing <something>." "This might take a while	01:00
l7	i think i will give installing kde 4 a shot later	01:00
Stskeeps	no shit glibc	01:01
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l7	hmm	01:04
l7	setting a blank password doesn't work on the n800	01:04
l7	it lets you set it, but you can't login	01:04
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l7	though you can change your password again with passwd	01:04
johnx	with openssh?	01:04
l7	yeah	01:04
johnx	that's an openssh thing	01:05
johnx	dropbear lets you use a blank password	01:05
johnx	maybe there's an option to enable it somewhere with openssh	01:05
l7	oh	01:05
johnx	I just use pubkey enc	01:05
l7	i guess it must be a security feature	01:05
l7	yeah, pubkey sounds like an easier way to go	01:05
nemo	and safer	01:06
l7	yeah, i was just testing to see what the OS would let me do	01:06
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nemo	if you're going to use a blank pass, you might as well just use ssh null encryption too :)	01:08
nemo	save cycles.	01:08
l7	heh	01:08
l7	is null encryption the same as sending plaintext?	01:08
macoute	it seems so? :)	01:09
macoute	nemo: blank password with pubkey is kinda secure, more secure than using password-authentication only	01:09
nemo	macoute: pubkey is entirely different	01:10
nemo	macoute: looked like he was trying to go no pass, no pubkey	01:11
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nemo	macoute: only time I've ever used that is when I needed to debug an app using SSL	01:11
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nemo	(null cipher)	01:12
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macoute	nemo: ah, no pass, no pubkey is not that secure :)	01:12
l7	ah, having bash on the n800 is much nicer	01:13
l7	must send props to whoever packaged it	01:13
lcuk	this guy thats making the extension case thing for n810s for extra memory. has anyone considered asking him if its feasible to fit a camera in there?	01:13
* lcuk really needs a front facing camera cos he wants to try somefink		01:15
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l7	hmm, will replacing /home/user/ with a symlink to one of my mmc cards cause any problems?	01:18
gregorovius	l7: only when a ssu comes out	01:19
l7	ssu?	01:19
gregorovius	~ssu	01:19
infobot	methinks ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU	01:19
gregorovius	the name nokia gave to a dist-upgrade	01:20
l7	ah	01:21
l7	updating without reflashing	01:21
mgedmin	what's the full name?	01:21
johnx	when do cards get mounted in the boot process?	01:21
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mgedmin	s??? software update?	01:21
gregorovius	seamless	01:21
l7	which files will the SSU try to access that will cause problems with my symlinked /home/user/?	01:21
l7	maybe i can just symlink off ~/apps and ~/MyDocs	01:22
qwerty12_N800	johnx, ke-recv starts at S30	01:22
gregorovius	.MyDocs did cause trouble last update	01:22
gregorovius	PDFs and a moby mp3 go in there	01:23
l7	oh	01:23
gregorovius	but the devs agreed that was a bug and should be sorted out by next ssu	01:23
l7	hrm	01:23
l7	hopefully it won't be a problem then	01:23
gregorovius	you can symlink everything, just remember not to update before reading some opinions	01:24
l7	hmm	01:24
l7	i guess i can always unsymlink and update if needed	01:24
gregorovius	that's my point	01:24
l7	do a lot of people symlink some or all of their home directory then?	01:24
gregorovius	the problem if you do that is that when some app is accessing ~, you can't unmount the memory card you symlinked it to	01:25
gregorovius	I did it, but then having to reboot just to plug it in via usb was a bother	01:26
l7	hmm	01:26
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gregorovius	at least that was my experience, not sure if it happens to everybody or if it's something in my configuration	01:27
l7	sounds like the less you symlink off, less likely you are to have problems	01:27
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l7	symlinking home directory with all it's preferences seems like it invites more problems	01:28
l7	time to test it out a bit...	01:28
gregorovius	=)	01:28
gregorovius	gotta run	01:28
l7	heh, later	01:28
l7	i have to say, the way nokia laid out the home directory with /apps and /MyDocs is much neater	01:29
l7	compared to how Ubuntu does it	01:29
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l7	no need to mix up all your media files with all the hidden preference directories	01:29
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l7	hmm, does clearing out the n800's built in flash improve performance any?	01:31
johnx	only if it's really close to full I would imagine	01:31
johnx	say 95% or more	01:31
l7	oh	01:32
l7	is it used for swap as well?	01:32
l7	i was hoping to reduce wear on the internal flash if possible	01:32
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johnx	well, in the case that an fs is >95% write performance can fall	01:32
johnx	but no, it's not used for swap	01:33
johnx	you can swap to an SD card if you want though	01:33
l7	yeah, i have my fastest SD card doing that :)	01:33
l7	just a cheap adata however	01:34
GeneralAntilles	http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/23/arm-cortex-based-netbooks-said-to-be-coming-soon/	01:39
GeneralAntilles	That I can go for.	01:39
johnx	I expect some really, really creative designs	01:39
GeneralAntilles	How big are the batteries on most netbooks, anyway?	01:39
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johnx	4400mAh?	01:40
johnx	actually, I have no clue	01:40
l7	hmm, which netbook offers the most bang for the buck these days?	01:40
l7	the eeepc seems to have a dev community working on a version of ubuntu for it	01:41
GeneralAntilles	johnx, seems to be 4400 at the low end	01:41
GeneralAntilles	Google says in the 4400-5800 range	01:41
l7	though the new msi wind looks like too and can run os x for fun	01:41
johnx	l7, I like the look of the hp mini	01:41
l7	johnx: what do you like about it?	01:42
johnx	the keyboard	01:42
l7	hmm, yeah a good keyboard is crucial	01:42
johnx	I've had a chance to type on most and it has the nicest keyboard	01:42
GeneralAntilles	So, what, something like 10-18 hour active battery life with an OMAP3440?	01:42
l7	how does it fare as far as running ubuntu or os x?	01:42
johnx	GeneralAntilles, or a new psion?	01:42
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l7	wow, the hp mini has an aluminum case	01:43
* GeneralAntilles was a Newton person.		01:43
l7	heh, i considered getting a newton	01:44
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l7	even when the mp 2001s were 300, i couldn't quite bring myself to get one	01:44
GeneralAntilles	They just a bit too outdated these days.	01:45
GeneralAntilles	s/They/They're/	01:45
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: They're just a bit too outdated these days.	01:45
l7	too bad the HP mini runs on a Via processor	01:45
johnx	meh, what are you planning to do on it, game?	01:47
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l7	actually, i just want to be able to run ubuntu on it	01:51
l7	though os x would be nice too as a toy	01:51
ShadowJK_	Some of the eee pc's have 6-cell batteries	01:52
johnx	there's a 9 cell for the wind	01:52
johnx	some DIY IIRC	01:52
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l7	bleh, it seems like you can't get the Wind without Windows	02:00
l7	it's aptly named	02:01
johnx	windows pays for itself with spyware. throw both away and call it even :)	02:01
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GeneralAntilles	http://eeepc.net/extended-batteries-for-your-asus-eee-pc/	02:03
GeneralAntilles	That's quite a battery	02:03
johnx	don't post that on ITT. There's probably about 5 users who will ask why Nokia didn't use it on the n8x0...	02:04
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	02:05
l7	heh	02:05
l7	are there any good mapping apps that you could run on a netbook?	02:05
johnx	in linux or windows?	02:05
johnx	windows probably has better commercial map software...	02:06
l7	linux preferably, but windows if comes to that :)	02:06
johnx	on linux: gpsdrive, maemo mapperu, navit and ... hmm...something else I don't remember come to mind	02:06
l7	hmm, that's not bad	02:07
johnx	the problem being lack of offline routing	02:07
l7	couldn't you link the netbook to a bluetooth gps?	02:08
johnx	sure, but that doesn't get you routing	02:08
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l7	hrm, for driving?	02:08
l7	i was planning more on using it as a navigation tool while on foot	02:09
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johnx	and so you just want to see a map?	02:09
johnx	maemo mapper will work fine for that	02:09
l7	a map and directions	02:09
johnx	directions = routing :)	02:09
l7	hrm	02:09
johnx	or do you mean compass directions?	02:09
l7	hrm, maybe the wimax eeepc could solve that problem	02:10
johnx	or some commercial windows software that has offline routing	02:10
l7	well for walking around the city, just being able to see where i am on the map and my destination point would be fine	02:10
johnx	yeah, same here	02:10
johnx	...or navit should do routing if openstreetmap has really good maps for your area	02:11
l7	hrm, what exactly do you mean by offline routing?	02:11
johnx	without an inet connection having the app give you turn-by-turn directions to get someplace	02:11
GeneralAntilles	The N810W is supposedly shipping, but has anybody actually received a production unit?	02:12
johnx	GeneralAntilles, some guy on ITT, right? or is he Nokia?	02:12
GeneralAntilles	Dunno	02:13
johnx	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24501	02:13
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GeneralAntilles	I don't know if he has an actually production unit.	02:13
l7	hmm, does the app need to talk to a server that sends it turn by turn directions?	02:13
johnx	l7, not if it has a vector map that includes routing metadata	02:14
l7	i thought it could just figure out how to get to your destination based on your GPS coordinates and the map	02:14
l7	ah	02:14
l7	so it needs to understand how the streets are laid out	02:14
johnx	so maemo mapper just uses jpgs/pngs downloaded from google/yahoo maps which of course don't have any routing info embedded	02:15
johnx	they're just pictures	02:15
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johnx	and the maps that include routing info are largely non-free	02:15
johnx	tiger maps of the US kind of work and are free enough	02:15
l7	except for openstreet?	02:15
johnx	right, but it's far from complete	02:16
johnx	some areas are pretty great, some are completely blank	02:16
l7	hrm, how is coverage in europe or canada?	02:16
johnx	i dunno, check their website :P	02:16
johnx	http://openstreetmap.org	02:17
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l7	k	02:19
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l7	ah, finally got around to symlinking mydocs	02:19
GeneralAntilles	Better to:	02:20
GeneralAntilles	~boot-sd	02:20
infobot	rumour has it, boot-sd is https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card	02:20
l7	hmm, what do you mean?	02:21
johnx	"just boot from sd"	02:22
l7	booting from a flash card is better than symlinking?	02:22
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l7	oh i see, then my entire filesystem will live on that sd card?	02:22
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johnx	well if you're going to keep the card mounted anyways, might as well keep things simple	02:22
l7	yeah, that's true	02:22
johnx	anyways, off to bed for me	02:24
johnx	'night all	02:24
l7	'nite	02:24
l7	any idea what is an ideal speed flash card to use for booting?	02:24
johnx	class 6 of course	02:24
* johnx really sleeps		02:24
mgedmin	the faster the better, no?	02:24
l7	yeah, what is the best bang for the buck in terms of class 6 cards though? :)	02:25
l7	there's also that x150 x200 spec, which is confusing	02:25
GeneralAntilles	That's for SD cards	02:25
GeneralAntilles	Most everybody is pretty much equal	02:25
GeneralAntilles	Except SanDisk	02:25
GeneralAntilles	Which is better, but you pay for the quality.	02:26
l7	how much faster is sandisk?	02:26
l7	perhaps a small 1 2 or 4 gig sandisk would be worth it for booting	02:26
l7	if there was a noticable increase	02:26
l7	they have a bunch of different lines though	02:27
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ShadowJK_	sandisk has slow cards too..	02:27
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GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK_, well, duuuh.	02:30
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GeneralAntilles	But you'll know it by the price.	02:30
GeneralAntilles	l7, not worth the cost.	02:31
GeneralAntilles	The tablets generally wont push them to their limits.	02:31
l7	hmm	02:33
l7	GeneralAntilles: what's the best option then?	02:33
l7	a good off-brand SD card?	02:33
GeneralAntilles	There isn't really a "best"	02:33
GeneralAntilles	Transcend, A-Data, Patriot, PNY, and Kingston are all in there.	02:34
GeneralAntilles	They're mostly all the same	02:34
GeneralAntilles	some people will report more problems with one brand or the other	02:34
l7	hrm	02:34
GeneralAntilles	Personally, I've been fine with Transcend	02:34
l7	adata seems to be priced the lowest at newegg, so i wonder if they're worse	02:35
l7	yeah, i remember that transcend comparison page a while back	02:35
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ShadowJK_	[782655.531250] omapfb omapfb: s1d1374x: line buffer not ready	02:47
ShadowJK_	well, this is new	02:47
l7	new bug?	02:48
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ShadowJK_	no idea	02:49
ShadowJK_	screen went black but backlight is on	02:50
ShadowJK_	ssh'd in and typed dmesg, and it was full of that	02:50
l7	hrm	02:50
l7	were you trying to shut down?	02:50
ShadowJK_	nope	02:51
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l7	strange	02:52
ShadowJK_	yah	02:53
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ShadowJK_	so I switched it off with shutdown -r over ssh	02:54
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ShadowJK_	it didn't come back, the blue led in the corner was fading on and off very slowly	02:54
ShadowJK_	and the screen had grey vertical stripes without backlight	02:54
ShadowJK_	I remove battery, and the grey vertical stripes remained for considerable amount of time	02:54
ShadowJK_	put in battery again and it works, yay \o/	02:55
ShadowJK_	don't die on me before N900 comes out!	02:55
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l7	heh	02:58
l7	hmm, how do i reset maemomapper's settings?	02:58
l7	i deleted ~/.maemomapper but the settings seem to persist	02:59
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mgedmin	doesn't it use gconf?	03:13
l7	hmm	03:14
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l7	hmm, there's no ~/.gconf directory	03:15
l7	there's ~/.gnome2, but it's empty	03:15
l7	hrm, i don't really like using backup and restore	03:17
l7	it seems to copy over a lot of obsolete settings	03:17
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l7	seperating the useful system bits like wireless authentication from the useless bits like saved games would be nice	03:18
l7	is there an easier way to enter podcasts into canola?	03:20
l7	i'm considering editing it's configuration file directly, though that seems messy	03:20
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l7	hmm, it's a sqlite db	03:23
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l7	copy and paste for feedburner urls doesn't seem to work well	03:32
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l7	hrm... i guess copy-paste works	03:34
l7	though it rather sucks	03:34
bef0rd	http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/23/arm-cortex-based-netbooks-said-to-be-coming-soon/	03:43
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GeneralAntilles	bef0rd, scrollback. :P	03:45
GeneralAntilles	The comments there make me laugh.	03:45
bef0rd	oh	03:45
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bef0rd	sorry hehe	03:45
GeneralAntilles	I'd be all over a netbook with an OMAP3440	03:46
GeneralAntilles	Slap a 5800mAh battery in there and it'll get 12 hours active easy.	03:47
bef0rd	yeah, Intel was blaiming the ARM processor on the iphone for the 'low performance', hah	03:47
bef0rd	I've seen some awesome stuff with beagleboards	03:47
GeneralAntilles	Cortex is 2-3x faster than ARM11	03:48
ds3	build one	03:49
ds3	gumstix board as CPU, N810 LCD	03:50
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	03:50
GeneralAntilles	Don't have the time or money.	03:50
ds3	maybe N800 case	03:50
GeneralAntilles	The overo's got big ports on it.	03:50
ds3	that's the carrier board, AFAIK	03:51
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ShadowJK_	Intel's argument that you need an intel processor for "the full web" is kinda flawed... There are websites that don't even work properly on Q6600, full web is impossible goal ;)	04:01
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GeneralAntilles	"Full web" means such radically different things to different people that it's hardly a metric worth discussing.	04:08
ShadowJK_	indeed	04:09
ShadowJK_	personally I'd want more ram so I could click more than a few links with my "one tab/window per link" browsing style before things grind to a halt :)	04:10
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	04:10
GeneralAntilles	I'm such a tab whore.	04:10
ShadowJK_	And this really starts from that I hate waiting for pages to load, so I click a bunch of links so that they load in the background so that I don't have to wait all the time, which is what happens if you do the follow link, back, follow another link, back style...	04:11
GeneralAntilles	I go back to XChat waiting for pages to load	04:14
GeneralAntilles	which doesn't work either, as MicroB's an attention whore and tops itself a hundred thousand times.	04:15
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ShadowJK_	yes	04:17
ShadowJK_	firefox does it too to some extent	04:17
ShadowJK_	Mostly only when it decides to freeze and you've clicked some UI component, it wants to pop back up again once it decides to respond	04:17
ShadowJK_	But microb does this even worse :)	04:17
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GeneralAntilles	Particularly inexcusable with Matchbox.	04:20
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disco_stu	hi	04:20
GeneralAntilles	Howdy	04:22
disco_stu	ini	04:22
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disco_stu	GeneralAntilles:	04:25
bef0rd	hey disco_stu	04:33
disco_stu	bef0rd: suppp man	04:33
disco_stu	someone here with experience with dosbox & maemo	04:35
disco_stu	?	04:35
bef0rd	I installed it once	04:37
bef0rd	is that enough? :P	04:37
bef0rd	I believe I used pupnik's packge	04:37
bef0rd	package*	04:37
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ShadowJK_	Can anyone think of any other situation where microb should steal focus, than when you've clicked a link in another app that launches microb?	05:04
GeneralAntilles	Nope	05:04
GeneralAntilles	Honestly, I'd rather applications not even pull focus when you open them.	05:05
ShadowJK_	I think that'd be hard to sneak past nokia people	05:05
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ShadowJK_	tap-hold a link, "Open Link in New window", microb steals focus, user switches back to original window, microb steals focus, user switches back to original window, microb has now maybe finished the page or atleast rendered it the first time, and steals focus for the third time. Drives me crazy :)	05:06
* GeneralAntilles stabs his eyes out.		05:06
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ShadowJK_	I guess there's at most an inane bugreport in bugzilla? :p	05:08
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GeneralAntilles	There is	05:09
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GeneralAntilles	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3557	05:09
ShadowJK_	eh, "Reporter, Nokia"	05:12
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ShadowJK_	"I can see that browserd calls that 3 times when it's asked to open another new page."	05:13
ShadowJK_	This matches exactly with what I've observed from the behaviour :)	05:13
GeneralAntilles	Eero's a platform guy.	05:13
ShadowJK_	a platform guy?	05:15
GeneralAntilles	He works on the platform stuff.	05:15
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disco_stu	the browser is stupid when you load it, and it shows and hides hildon-input-keyboard	05:16
ShadowJK_	as I'm clueless about maemo, are all the browser components open? i.e. could we remove the RaiseWindow calls and compile our own..	05:17
GeneralAntilles	The browser basically has to re-implement text input from scratch.	05:17
ShadowJK_	Oh yeah, I have focus issues with the location field, but that's another story :)	05:17
GeneralAntilles	The "Mozilla based browser for Maemo" or "tablet-browser" effectively makes up two parts	05:17
GeneralAntilles	First, MicroB the open source browser engine based on Firefox	05:18
l7	hmm, isn't there some sort of "open new windows in background" option for microb?	05:18
GeneralAntilles	and, second, tablet-browser-ui, the closed-source UI.	05:18
GeneralAntilles	l7, no, but there's an enhancement request	05:18
l7	GeneralAntilles: oh good	05:18
GeneralAntilles	http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1695	05:18
ShadowJK_	do you really need RaiseWindow in the app for matchbox to be able to command it to front...?	05:19
* GeneralAntilles doesn't have enough familiarity with X and window managers to have a clue.		05:19
ShadowJK_	hmm	05:19
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l7	hmm, timeless really seems to dislike that enhancement request	05:20
disco_stu	well i succesfully ran turbo c within dosbox	05:20
disco_stu	and it compiled a simple c file	05:21
l7	seems like he turns around towards the end	05:21
disco_stu	is time to try windows 3.11	05:21
GeneralAntilles	Ha, Boingo support finally gets back to me the day after I talk to one of the managers.	05:21
GeneralAntilles	l7, well, RAM is extremely limited.	05:22
GeneralAntilles	l7, you open more than a few windows and you're getting close to OOM.	05:22
l7	too bad we can't just pop in some sodimms :)	05:22
GeneralAntilles	Which means something has to give, and that means closing windows	05:22
GeneralAntilles	which is just not very nice.	05:23
l7	hrm	05:23
GeneralAntilles	So anything that encourages opening more windows is probably not desirable.	05:23
l7	it is nice to let one window load in the background while you keep reading the main article though	05:23
GeneralAntilles	Rock and a hard place sort of deal.	05:23
l7	i mean that's like 2, maybe 3 browser windows at most	05:23
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, but you know people wont use it that way	05:24
l7	it's just about the convenience of being able to keep reading the current page without being interupted	05:24
GeneralAntilles	and what do they say when Flash or JavaScript stops working for seemingly no reason? Or a window closes?	05:24
l7	well.... they can suffer the consequences :)	05:24
GeneralAntilles	The consequences of opening browser windows? :P	05:24
l7	put a big red warning box over the option :)	05:24
GeneralAntilles	It's not a nice situation however you look at it.	05:24
l7	to open browser windows in the background	05:25
l7	firefox has an appropriate warning in it's about:config	05:25
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GeneralAntilles	We'll see what happens with Fremantle	05:26
GeneralAntilles	The browser UI is going open there, so it would be something the community could flip a switch for without issue if Nokia didn't implement it.	05:26
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GeneralAntilles	Unfortunately I don't see much hope for improvement with Diablo.	05:26
l7	oh well	05:28
GeneralAntilles	Soo, go get people to help with coding Tear. :P	05:28
l7	i hope fremantle comes out soon :)	05:28
GeneralAntilles	Next summer-ish	05:28
l7	doh	05:28
l7	well i guess i'm still glad about the rate at which the tablet OS is evolving	05:29
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, it's a bit of a ways away. :(	05:29
l7	compared to those other closed devices which just stay the same	05:29
GeneralAntilles	But it's a pretty radical change	05:29
GeneralAntilles	and we've got SSU between now and then.	05:29
l7	is there a page detailing what's in the works for the next SSU?	05:31
GeneralAntilles	Ha	05:31
GeneralAntilles	You can follow the changelogs for the open source stuff on Garage	05:31
l7	the closed source stuff is top secret then?	05:32
GeneralAntilles	One sec	05:32
penguinbait	times up	05:33
GeneralAntilles	http://tinyurl.com/6oe44p	05:33
GeneralAntilles	Bugs that may or may not be fixed in the next release	05:33
GeneralAntilles	Nokia is pretty tight-lipped about what's too be included in future updates.	05:33
l7	hrm	05:34
l7	reminds me that company that rhymes with snapple	05:35
l7	i guess it gives them a little room for more exciting press releases	05:35
ShadowJK_	heh, I tried to kill XRaiseWindow with some LD_PRELOAD, but it didn't seem to work	05:36
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GeneralAntilles	l7, they're not a company familiar with open source.	05:36
Pavlov	heh	05:36
GeneralAntilles	I can't imagine the suffering the Maemo Software guys go through	05:37
l7	they suffer from doing open source?	05:37
GeneralAntilles	No, being open source people working in a closed-source company like Nokia	05:37
l7	oh, yeah	05:38
GeneralAntilles	Especially they people that put themselves out there in the community and end up taking flack for Nokia's practices.	05:38
GeneralAntilles	s/they/the/	05:38
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: Especially the people that put themselves out there in the community and end up taking flack for Nokia's practices.	05:38
l7	yeah, that can't be fun	05:39
disco_stu	GeneralAntilles: does nokia pay to you?	05:39
GeneralAntilles	Ha	05:39
disco_stu	haha	05:39
GeneralAntilles	disco_stu, no.	05:39
GeneralAntilles	Well, I got a t-shirt from timeless for Bugzilla triaging. :P	05:39
disco_stu	hahah	05:40
l7	heh	05:40
l7	maybe the linux foundation might sponsor you :)	05:40
l7	wow, there's a bunch of crazy stuff in /afs	05:43
TokyoDan	The Maemo PC Connectivity explanation isn't clear about what development environment configuration is/isn't necessary when using the Eclipse Pluthon plug-in instead of the ESBox/Scratchbox plugin.	05:43
TokyoDan	-----	05:43
TokyoDan	Pluthon = develop Maemo apps on PC, run and test on actual Maemo device.	05:43
TokyoDan	ESBox = develop, run & test Maemo apps in scratchbox environment on PC.	05:43
TokyoDan	-----	05:43
TokyoDan	What's not clear is what needs to be configured when using Pluthon for development:	05:43
TokyoDan	1. SSH: Configure for ability to establish a connection without need to enter a password.	05:43
TokyoDan	I did this.	05:43
TokyoDan	2. SSHFS: Configure for ability to access Maemo device filesystem from a mount on the PC.	05:43
TokyoDan	This may be necessary if using ESBox, but is it also necessary if using Pluthon instead of ESBox?	05:43
TokyoDan	3. SBRSH: Scratchbox Remote Shell.	05:43
TokyoDan	I don't believe this is necessary since I won't be using ESBox/Scratchbox on the PC to develop Maemo apps. The apps will be run & tested on the Maemo device.	05:43
GeneralAntilles	Whoa	05:43
GeneralAntilles	slexy.org please	05:44
disco_stu	slexy is one of the nicest pastebins i've ever used	05:45
disco_stu	i should make a hildon client for maemo	05:46
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disco_stu	GeneralAntilles: is there any explanation about why sometimes file manager doesnt see CIFS shares ?	05:51
GeneralAntilles	ifs	05:51
GeneralAntilles	lol	05:51
GeneralAntilles	Um, dunno.	05:51
GeneralAntilles	Think there's a bug.	05:51
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disco_stu	you can manually mount it	05:52
disco_stu	so it works.. but not automatically like expected	05:53
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GeneralAntilles	If there's not a bug, file one.	05:55
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disco_stu	GeneralAntilles: i'm not the kind of guy who does that	05:56
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GeneralAntilles	Files bugs?	05:57
GeneralAntilles	What's wrong with filing bugs?	05:57
disco_stu	burocracy in general	05:57
GeneralAntilles	Clearly developers wont fix issues if they don't know about them.	05:57
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disco_stu	GeneralAntilles: the have crystal balls i guess	05:57
GeneralAntilles	What has bugzilla got to do with bureaucracy?	05:57
disco_stu	GeneralAntilles: burocracy is easier to speel	05:58
disco_stu	s/speel/spell	05:58
disco_stu	i miss the trailing '/'	05:58
disco_stu	damn it	05:58
GeneralAntilles	Anyway, if you don't file a bug, then you forfeit you rights to complain about it. :)	05:58
GeneralAntilles	s/you/your/2	05:59
* ShadowJK_ fails at quickfixing focus stealing with LD_PRELOAD :-(		05:59
disco_stu	mmm.. what is forfeit ?	05:59
GeneralAntilles	Give up your rights	05:59
disco_stu	i see	05:59
disco_stu	:D	05:59
ShadowJK_	does the file browser still not support password protected smb shares?	05:59
disco_stu	ShadowJK_: i'm with Chinook and it doesnt, dunoo about Diablo	06:00
disco_stu	/s/dunoo/dunno/	06:00
ShadowJK_	yeah i know it didn't in diablo	06:00
ShadowJK_	er, in chinook	06:00
disco_stu	fuck me !	06:00
ShadowJK_	?	06:01
disco_stu	i cant learn how to fix mispellings	06:01
disco_stu	too much work to my brain that is already emulating english speaking	06:01
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bef0rd	:P	06:07
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nemo	Sooo, what do folks here think of the "iKIT	06:28
nemo	"?	06:28
GeneralAntilles	Way underpowered	06:28
GeneralAntilles	Screen's way too small	06:28
GeneralAntilles	Maybe if it were under $100	06:29
nemo	312MHz ROM: 128 MB, RAM: 64 MB SDRAM ... ROM?	06:29
GeneralAntilles	NAND, presumably	06:30
disco_stu	i like it :)	06:30
disco_stu	what's the actual size ?	06:31
closet	It definitely looks a bit frightingly like an old clamshell zaurus	06:31
ds3	same processor	06:32
disco_stu	the size compared to a n800	06:32
disco_stu	?	06:32
nemo	looks smaller	06:33
nemo	little bit bigger than a phone	06:34
nemo	95mm (L) x 65mm (W) x 15.5mm (H)	06:34
nemo	http://www.webitpr.com/release_detail.asp?ReleaseID=10258	06:34
disco_stu	is nice.. but i dont know about that kb	06:35
closet	yeah, it's a fair bit smaller: http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/19089-Nokia-n810-vs-iKit	06:35
disco_stu	it should be way to smaller	06:37
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disco_stu	the thing with ikit is that it doesnt offer things that a cellphone offers	06:42
disco_stu	my nokia e50 gives me everything ikit does but wifi	06:43
disco_stu	it should be ultra small	06:43
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zackeroo	can I download google maps onto my computer and just move the file to my N810 for maemo-mapper to use?	06:57
disco_stu	zackeroo: i dont think so	07:00
ShadowJK_	e50 has no wifi?	07:00
ShadowJK_	i thought ell e series had wifi :/	07:01
zackeroo	reason I asked was that mapper is really not good with downloading the maps	07:01
* disco_stu is watching sharapova pics, will be back in 10 minutes		07:01
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zackeroo	half of the time it freezes during download .... and other times it says it needs to download outragous amounts of data for my selection ....	07:02
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zackeroo	disco_stu : turns out it is possible ... ever heard of winmapper?	07:10
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GeneralAntilles	Is it compatible with 2.x?	07:11
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zackeroo	GeneralAntilles : asking me?	07:28
GeneralAntilles	Well, last time I checked it wasn't.	07:29
zackeroo	2.x mapper?	07:29
GeneralAntilles	Yes	07:29
GeneralAntilles	Moved from folders to a real database.	07:29
zackeroo	oh	07:30
zackeroo	I dunno about that ..	07:30
zackeroo	so its back to square one ...	07:30
zackeroo	:)	07:31
GeneralAntilles	It's largely because Google throttles big map downloads.	07:31
zackeroo	yeah ... which is why I wish people would share the downloads they have done	07:32
zackeroo	like if someone already downloaded an area or city they could share that online .... torrent it or something ...	07:32
zackeroo	no?	07:32
GeneralAntilles	Eh	07:34
GeneralAntilles	Sounds like a lot of work for little reward	07:34
GeneralAntilles	Besides, how do you integrate a database of the northeast with a database of the southwest?	07:34
GeneralAntilles	You have one database per repository.	07:34
zackeroo	but is it even true when maemo mapper says it will need to download 12GB for an area ?	07:34
GeneralAntilles	It can be less depending on the number of duplicate tiles	07:35
GeneralAntilles	which the database method accounts for.	07:35
GeneralAntilles	But, generally speaking, they're raster maps and not particularly small.	07:36
zackeroo	so it could be less than what it says it will need to download	07:37
GeneralAntilles	Usually isn't	07:37
GeneralAntilles	Especially for urban areas	07:37
GeneralAntilles	unless the area you're downloading is mostly water	07:37
zackeroo	how about the option to download "Along Route" ... how does that work?	07:38
GeneralAntilles	Once you have a route, it downloads x number of tiles along it.	07:39
GeneralAntilles	Get a piece of graph paper, draw a squiggly line	07:39
zackeroo	"have a route" please explain	07:39
GeneralAntilles	It downloads the tiles that line intersects	07:39
GeneralAntilles	A navigation route	07:40
GeneralAntilles	A GPX track	07:40
GeneralAntilles	Directions from point a to point b.	07:40
GeneralAntilles	It's right at the top of the menu.	07:40
zackeroo	I downloaded a route from gnuite .. does that count?	07:40
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GeneralAntilles	A route is just a gpx track	07:40
GeneralAntilles	so it can be any gpx track	07:40
GeneralAntilles	Shows up as a green line on the map by default.	07:41
zackeroo	so I now have a route from Melbourne to Sydney ... and there is a green line on my map showing the route	07:41
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zackeroo	to download that route ... I should use the "Along Route" option ... right?	07:42
GeneralAntilles	To download tiles along the route.	07:42
zackeroo	but ... what is the number there for ?	07:42
zackeroo	its on number 8 at the moment	07:43
GeneralAntilles	That's how many tiles wide around the route it should download. . . .	07:43
zackeroo	is there a way to see the tile grid so I can know what that means?	07:44
zackeroo	like how far is 8 tiles?	07:44
GeneralAntilles	Depends on the zoom level.	07:44
zackeroo	zoom levels 6,8 and 10	07:45
zackeroo	for instance	07:45
zackeroo	I wish google maps showed the grid ... that would be helpful	07:46
zackeroo	oh and by the way ... I never got flite to work .... so no voices ... :(	07:47
zackeroo	is there a way to tell how large a tile is?	07:47
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GeneralAntilles	Fullscreen it's about 8 tiles at any particular zoom level.	07:48
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zackeroo	ok... well I did 5 tiles ... at 6,8 and 10 zoom	07:49
zackeroo	says its going to download 185MB	07:49
zackeroo	is there a way to stop that GPS notification popup?	07:50
GeneralAntilles	popup?	07:51
zackeroo	says stuff like "Turn Right at such and such street"	07:51
zackeroo	keeps blinking	07:51
GeneralAntilles	It's in preferences, I'm sure.	07:51
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zackeroo	so there is no other way to get voice working but through flite	07:56
zackeroo	?	07:56
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Khertan_n810	Hi !	08:23
Khertan_n810	someone know an online service which redirect a host/port to an other other one with a different port ? dyndns doesn t able to change port	08:24
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bef0rd	most of that kind of services are for 'name' redirection	08:25
Khertan_n810	yep	08:25
bef0rd	and I don't think they'll do 'port redirect' for free	08:25
Khertan_n810	that my problem	08:25
Khertan_n810	and the only one i found was 114$ by month	08:26
bef0rd	tehehe	08:26
Khertan_n810	at this price i prefer to create my own server	08:27
bef0rd	yea, well port redirection requires some kind of software to be installed	08:28
bef0rd	that'll act as a 'proxy', because I don't think its possible to do it in any other way	08:29
bef0rd	what do you need it for?	08:29
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Khertan_n810	this is for by passing the orange stupid decision to block port 993 (imap ssl) for 'security reason' on data connection	08:31
Khertan_n810	as well as port 25 ... saying that it s a common port used by spammer	08:31
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Khertan_n810	i suggest they to block also 80 as many forbidden thing can be done on this port too	08:31
Khertan_n810	ping ?	08:31
Khertan_n810	reading and sending mail	08:31
Khertan_n810	gmail	08:32
bef0rd	hah	08:32
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Khertan_n810	yeah orange suck	08:32
bef0rd	so, they block any connection attempt to 993 and 25?	08:32
Khertan_n810	yem	08:33
bef0rd	is it your own imap server? can't you change the port number?	08:33
Khertan_n810	yepm	08:33
Khertan_n810	no it s the gmail one	08:33
Khertan_n810	and i prefer to not create one at home	08:34
Khertan_n810	adsl connection is not reliable	08:34
bef0rd	doesn't orange handle iphones in france?	08:35
bef0rd	(you are in france, right?)	08:35
bef0rd	iphone uses imap gmail, I suppose those connect to 993 too	08:36
Khertan_n810	yep	08:37
Khertan_n810	but orange sell the data connection for iphone only with an iphone	08:38
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Khertan_n810	other user have this stupid restriction since 10days	08:38
bef0rd	can't you sue them or something	08:39
bef0rd	or make them return your money since they have made it 'useless' for your needs	08:39
Khertan_n810	yep ...	08:39
Khertan_n810	they change service	08:40
Khertan_n810	but other french isp suck too	08:40
Khertan_n810	bouygue telecom autorize only their pop3 server	08:40
Khertan_n810	and sfr limit mail to 10Mo ... or you need to use the webmail	08:40
Khertan_n810	10Mo by month	08:41
bef0rd	hmm it should be possible to 'tunnel' all your communication through ssh	08:41
bef0rd	(unless they ban 22)	08:41
Khertan_n810	22 banned	08:41
Khertan_n810	but i could set it to 80 on my home computer	08:42
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Khertan_n810	but i prefer to not do that ... as it require a permanent computer running	08:42
qwerty12	See if you can leave it running on a router or something, I leave http://www.nocrew.org/software/httptunnel.html running on my netgear	08:43
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zackeroo	does anyone know how to get flite working on a N810 device with mapper?	09:05
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zackeroo	does anyone here use mapper and flite together?	09:08
`Mace	hi	09:17
`Mace	blah	09:17
`Mace	hi	09:18
`Mace	i need to see if my httpd vm works on esx	09:19
`Mace	i hope i used scsi to make the drive instead of ide	09:19
`Mace	i guess you can't use ide for esxi	09:19
`Mace	bastards	09:19
`Mace	why even have it then? in case someone is running MS DOS 3?	09:19
zackeroo	ok well ... without voice this is still useless as a GPS device ... :(	09:24
zackeroo	I mean I payed $350 for this thing ... I could have paid $100 for an ordinary GPS device, but i bought this becasue I thought I was getting a GPS device + lots more ...	09:25
zackeroo	turns out I got "lots more" minus the GPS services ...	09:26
GeneralAntilles	"Map" gives you what you're after.	09:27
zackeroo	or i have to fork out another X amount of bucks to get MAP to work ... which, as I am reading reviews, does not get a fantastic score either	09:27
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zackeroo	and then this will have cost me about $450 which is a tad bit outragous imo for a GPS device that is ireless as well and has a few other apps and things you can do ....	09:28
GeneralAntilles	You bought it for the wrong reasons	09:28
GeneralAntilles	It's a handheld laptop than can also do some GPS work on the side.	09:28
zackeroo	I bought it for reasons it was advertised	09:28
GeneralAntilles	You did realize that GPS navigation wasn't included in the price of the device, though, right? :\	09:29
zackeroo	when I came here and read up on it, and on maemo-mapper, people were full of praise about it ...	09:29
zackeroo	then as I am working through getting it to work its practically no fun .... there is no clearly marked out documentation on mapper and its easiness to use and setup .... I am also being told that i can have sound in mapper ... "of course you can" ppl say ...	09:31
zackeroo	but is it working for me? ... no! and that is what is frustrating ....	09:31
GeneralAntilles	Maemo Mapper has built-in help.	09:31
GeneralAntilles	It's quite good.	09:31
zackeroo	show me the where I can read about how to setup flite ...	09:32
zackeroo	or audio	09:32
GeneralAntilles	It should just work.	09:32
GeneralAntilles	There's probably something wrong with your particularly setup.	09:33
GeneralAntilles	You could always try mailing maem-users.	09:33
zackeroo	yeah ... and I am a basic user ... I have not fiddled with anything in-depth	09:33
zackeroo	this is where OS looses out ... its too complex for the basic user to figure out ...	09:33
zackeroo	we don't want to have to debug and all that	09:34
GeneralAntilles	Eh	09:34
zackeroo	:)	09:34
GeneralAntilles	It's simple enough if you use it for what it's intended for	09:34
GeneralAntilles	But it's not a platform for the feint of heart if you want to expand beyond that.	09:34
zackeroo	well.. that is what I am doing .... no?	09:34
zackeroo	I am working onthe very basic level here ....	09:34
zackeroo	like you said "it should just work"	09:35
GeneralAntilles	I suspect you'll have the most fun with the platform if you look at it as a learning experience	09:35
RST38h	moo all	09:35
GeneralAntilles	Howdy, RST38h.	09:35
zackeroo	do the developers ever ask themselves "so what happens if it doesn't work?"	09:35
zackeroo	a "learning experience"?	09:35
RST38h	ehlo, General	09:35
zackeroo	so what you mean is this thing is not ready for the GP	09:36
zackeroo	at least some of its features	09:36
GeneralAntilles	Like I said earlier, the basic features work fine.	09:36
RST38h	what thing? maemo?	09:36
zackeroo	or some of the apps built for it....	09:36
zackeroo	is maemo-mapper and audio not basic?	09:36
zackeroo	I think its basic ....	09:36
zackeroo	and, again, where in the mapper help is there any info about getting Audio to work?	09:37
RST38h	as I missed the start of this conversation, could you say exactly what general programming means to you?	09:37
zackeroo	hehe	09:37
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GeneralAntilles	For 99% of people, it's "install flite and turn on voice synthesis"	09:38
zackeroo	I was just talking with GA here about the N810 and its GPS feature	09:38
RST38h	and?	09:38
GeneralAntilles	If you want perfectly end-user ready, pay up and buy a "Map" license.	09:39
zackeroo	I understand that ... but I have to ask where does that leave the 1% (if indeed it is so few) who have probs with it	09:39
zackeroo	?	09:39
GeneralAntilles	Figuring out their problem?	09:39
GeneralAntilles	Could be a packaging issue	09:39
GeneralAntilles	flite hasn't been uploaded to Diablo Extras	09:40
RST38h	it leaves those people in whatever shit they were before they bought their tablets.	09:40
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zackeroo	so there could be a compatability issue between mapper and flite	09:40
zackeroo	?	09:40
RST38h	as long as it is 1%, they are insignificant	09:40
GeneralAntilles	I don't know	09:41
GeneralAntilles	maemo-users might be a better place to ask	09:41
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zackeroo	and is there any other free alternative to mapper?	09:41
GeneralAntilles	navit	09:41
GeneralAntilles	roadmap	09:41
RST38h	did he try itt already?	09:41
zackeroo	are they in the repos?	09:41
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zackeroo	can Navit use flite?	09:44
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RST38h	Sony said UIQ is dead. Amen.	09:49
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qwerty12	RST38h: w00t	09:50
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RST38h	azerty12	09:57
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RST38h	ARM says Cortex A8/A9 are coming to netbooks.	10:01
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RST38h	probably figured winxp emulation :)	10:02
Stskeeps	hehe	10:02
* Stskeeps is trying to kickstart his brain with a massive sugar rush.		10:03
gomiam	a boot is usually better for kick-starting	10:04
gomiam	:-P	10:04
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, I'm so down with an OMAP3440 netbook.	10:04
* Stskeeps would enjoy a laptop on a omap too		10:04
Stskeeps	and then just sd card slots	10:04
RST38h	why? I dont really care either way but doubt it will fly	10:05
zackeroo	what do you use to edit files ?	10:05
zackeroo	like instead of kate or gedit	10:05
RST38h	edlin	10:05
zackeroo	edlin?	10:06
GeneralAntilles	8-16 hour active battery life out of a ~4400-5800mAh battery would be fun.	10:06
RST38h	more arm-based mids should be nice though, especially startrek-styled ones	10:06
Stskeeps	RST38h: because of non-movable parts	10:06
Stskeeps	completely silent, doesn't get warm..	10:06
RST38h	and what about slide-out keyboard in tablets or the hinge in netbooks?	10:08
zackeroo	ummm.. anyone know?	10:08
GeneralAntilles	vi?	10:08
* melmoth uses vi		10:09
zackeroo	thanks	10:09
RST38h	nooo, I want Iphone form factor in x8 size - steve jobs	10:09
GeneralAntilles	iPhone. :P	10:09
melmoth	there s pygtkeditor for a gui based editor with fancy syntax highlight	10:09
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zackeroo	ok... something else than vi?	10:10
zackeroo	something more like kate or gedit?	10:10
RST38h	zackeroo: please visit download section at maemo.org and search for editor	10:11
RST38h	do you know where to enter Maemoorg" in your browser and how to use search?	10:11
zackeroo	can you name one I can install from the repos?	10:12
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:12
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GeneralAntilles	Hi, Jaffa.	10:13
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solmumaha	morning	10:15
zackeroo	is it possible to install apps to other places than the internal memory?	10:15
GeneralAntilles	~boot-sd	10:16
infobot	boot-sd is, like, https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card	10:16
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aquatix	morning all	10:17
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GeneralAntilles	Hi, aquatix.	10:17
* GeneralAntilles wonders where jott and guenther are hiding		10:18
zackeroo	ok I looked up text editors in the downloads area of maemo.org and there are only 3 ....	10:18
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zackeroo	Leafpad ... installed and does not work from the terminal	10:19
zackeroo	VIM -- too complex for my needs	10:19
zackeroo	Xournal -- not in the repos	10:20
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melmoth	you want a ncurses editor that is more "user friendly" than vi ? I guess the only option left to you is to port joe or something	10:22
Stskeeps	i have a joe deb	10:23
Stskeeps	i use it exclusively :P	10:23
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps -> Extras	10:23
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: i will eventually :P should look into mud builder it seems	10:23
smokie	Hi, i have problems installing the 4.1.1 SDK on my X86_64 (Ubuntu). I get http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1.1/free/libh/libhildon/libhildon1_2.0.6-1_i386.deb Error reading from server and the same for libsmbclient.	10:23
Stskeeps	smokie: get the updated .sh	10:24
smokie	o.k.	10:24
GeneralAntilles	Good ol' unreliable maemo.org	10:26
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, by the way, I saw the council vid.	10:26
GeneralAntilles	You guys owe me blogs. :P	10:26
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Jaffa	;-)	10:28
GeneralAntilles	I may have to put etrunko on the job of helping Dave out with INdT.	10:29
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Jaffa	Good idea	10:32
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GeneralAntilles	I'm sure he's busy with Canola, but he's gotta put in _some_ council time.	10:33
* Stskeeps really never heard of etrunko before elections		10:34
macoute	how long can it take to change some servers for maemo?	10:35
GeneralAntilles	macoute, I don't know. :\	10:35
Stskeeps	macoute: a leopard guards the 770s that run it	10:35
macoute	in a good system, it would take about 10 minutes	10:35
GeneralAntilles	tekojo says it's the db server now.	10:35
Stskeeps	and nerds aren't fond of leopards.	10:35
GeneralAntilles	and that they don't yet have a schedule for the upgrade from the ISP	10:35
macoute	but as we can see, maemo is not a good system :)	10:35
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: 10 bucks it's just midgard bringing down any system cos of some thedailywtf.com like statements	10:35
Stskeeps	:P	10:36
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, he's been around since the beginning, but is pretty quiet in community stuff	10:36
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smokie	Stskeeps, worked. Great ... lets move on to hello world :-)	10:50
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GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, there's a thread on -developers you might want to wade into.	10:51
GeneralAntilles	johnx, too.	10:53
zackeroo	GeneralAntilles : does the n810 come with Diablo by default?	10:54
GeneralAntilles	No	10:54
zackeroo	whats it come with?	10:54
GeneralAntilles	Maybe 51-3 at this point? I'm not sure.	10:54
GeneralAntilles	Chinook, anyway.	10:54
zackeroo	hmmm	10:55
zackeroo	so would flite be working if was using that?	10:55
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: which one?	10:55
zackeroo	chinnok	10:56
zackeroo	chinook	10:56
solmumaha	zackeroo: doesn't flite work with diablo then?	10:56
zackeroo	not with mapper	10:57
solmumaha	installs but doesn't work?	10:57
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, the recent one about Maemo and upstream from Quim	10:57
zackeroo	yep	10:57
zackeroo	installs... but get nothing through mapper	10:57
solmumaha	does it work from the commandline?	10:57
zackeroo	yes	10:57
zackeroo	tried it with "hello world" and it works	10:58
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Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: it is a difficult discussion though.. i'll think of something for it	11:01
* Jaffa rewatches the coucil video - Mrs Jaffa really did fsck up on my hair the day before travelling		11:02
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: maybe a "wet dream maemo" vision could be a possibility to write about	11:03
GeneralAntilles	Quim always has this "we're open, we're not hiding things, why don't you discuss it with us in the open?" vibe about him in discussions that this that doesn't totally jive with the reality of Nokia.	11:04
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, you had hair in the video? :P	11:05
solmumaha	maybe that was the fsck up	11:05
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	11:06
zackeroo	GeneralAntilles : so ... I think I may have changed to Diablo ... for what reasons i forget .... but if I backtracked to Chinook would I still be able to use mapper and flite?	11:06
Jaffa	Mrs Jaffa started at the back with the clippers - forgetting to put on the plastic bit.	11:07
GeneralAntilles	Ahaha	11:07
Stskeeps	Jaffa: my gf is never cutting my hair again either	11:08
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solmumaha	luckily i have a haircut nobody can really mess up	11:12
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Stskeeps	bald?	11:12
Stskeeps	:P	11:12
solmumaha	yes	11:12
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solmumaha	wife doesn't like if it gets over 1 mm	11:13
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gomiam	.	11:15
gomiam	solmumaha: so she can smack your head better? ;-)	11:16
solmumaha	well it doesn't really look good any longer tbh :)	11:17
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zackeroo	how do I install wget in maemo?	11:30
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zackeroo	I am trying to install roadmap ... but it says it needs wget	11:32
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Stskeeps	install extras and apt-get install wget	11:34
Stskeeps	:P	11:34
solmumaha	or try red pill mode	11:34
GeneralAntilles	^ no.	11:35
GeneralAntilles	Bad solmumaha.	11:35
solmumaha	sry	11:38
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solmumaha	wget doesn't show up in red pill mode?	11:39
aquatix	no, red pill mode is discouraged	11:39
GeneralAntilles	Red Pill is bad juju	11:39
GeneralAntilles	It does bad things that get users in big trouble	11:39
GeneralAntilles	apt-get install wget is a lot lower impact	11:40
RST38h	Once he installs Roadmap, he is going to complain. Badly. Right here. And ask questions.	11:40
RST38h	So I suggest you do not help him install Roadmap. =)	11:40
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zackeroo	ha	11:41
zackeroo	too late.... its done	11:42
zackeroo	the install added a repo though...	11:42
zackeroo	called mg	11:42
zackeroo	should i disable it?	11:43
zackeroo	oh?	11:45
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aquatix	zackeroo: well, i guess it's needed for roadmap packages?	11:49
zackeroo	it added as I was installing wget	11:51
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aquatix	oh	11:56
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* GeneralAntilles can't decide between a maemo.org startup splash and Err.		12:03
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smokie	Are there any problems installing esbox in eclipse ganymed ? Instal was fine, but all esbox option (maemo project, preferences, ...) end up in an error popup ?	12:03
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RST38h	maemo.org is going to get a startup splash? =)	12:10
Stskeeps	"Loading.."	12:10
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* RST38h wonders whether ignoring latest redesign discussion has been a bad idea		12:11
RST38h	Meanwhile: http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/	12:11
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GeneralAntilles	Carman's not checking if you've already selected a location during updates.	12:18
GeneralAntilles	Hoo man, that looks nice.	12:19
GeneralAntilles	Did anybody ever figure out where the first Nokia logo resides?	12:19
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: First logo?	12:20
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GeneralAntilles	During startup	12:21
GeneralAntilles	I'm thinking it's on the initfs, but I'm not sure.	12:21
X-Fade	initfs?	12:21
X-Fade	I think so, I don't think it is in NOLO.	12:21
Stskeeps	it's in NOLO	12:22
Stskeeps	afaik	12:22
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Stskeeps	the very first nokia one	12:22
X-Fade	Isn't there an option in 0xffff to replace it?	12:22
X-Fade	I thought so.	12:22
GeneralAntilles	Ugh, what a pain.	12:22
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Well, it _is_ Nokia's own branding ;)	12:23
X-Fade	Next thing you want to do is remove the name nokia on your tablet's front? :)	12:24
GeneralAntilles	I paid for the damn device. :P	12:24
GeneralAntilles	Nah, that looks good.	12:24
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GeneralAntilles	What do I want to replace the hands with?	12:25
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smokie	ESBox wont start here in ganymede. Even the preference dialog doesn't come because its unable to activate some classes ????	12:31
Stskeeps	okay, so a optimized glibc -feels- like it helps.	12:34
Stskeeps	very interesting	12:34
Stskeeps	either that or i want it to help	12:34
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Stskeeps	johnx: grab http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/glibc-optimized/ , libc6-dev and libc6 and whatever other packages you think might help :	12:35
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GeneralAntilles	Interesting	12:46
GeneralAntilles	Replaced the hands image with my current desktop background	12:47
GeneralAntilles	gives the impression of a faster startup.	12:47
RST38h	Make sure you have all the UI images on top of that background as well	12:47
X-Fade	Less flickering :)	12:48
RST38h	This is how iPhone makes application startup "faster" =)	12:48
X-Fade	yes, but don't try to click on something.	12:48
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: indeed	12:49
Jaffa	http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/03/08/improving_application_start_up_usability#comments	12:49
Jaffa	http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/03/08/improving_application_start_up_usability even - and http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/03/09/improving_application_start_up_mockup	12:50
GeneralAntilles	Maybe grab Hildon Desktop's outline	12:50
johnx	then make a greyed-out version of it	12:50
johnx	"It's there, just wait another 3 seconds" :)	12:50
RST38h	just leave it as it is, will'ya?	12:51
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solmumaha	GeneralAntilles: you should test that on a woman	12:53
solmumaha	i know my wife would say it's broken before it's booted	12:54
macoute	btw. does anyone know who maintains maemo.org-widset?	12:54
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johnx	Stskeeps, trying the new libc in a bit	12:56
GeneralAntilles	macoute, "wdiset"?	12:56
GeneralAntilles	s/wdi/wid/	12:56
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: macoute, "widset"?	12:56
macoute	GeneralAntilles: its kinda an rss-feed-reader for mobile phones. finnish invention I think.	12:57
macoute	http://www.widsets.com/	12:57
* Jaffa has never heard of it		12:58
RST38h	It is weird javascript-based stuff that runs inside an S60 browser	13:02
macoute	its kinda handy to have, though most of the widsets are coded like hell	13:03
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macoute	for example the weatherforecast-app has downloaded over 10 megs in some months	13:03
macoute	and i never use it	13:03
macoute	and most of the widset i use frequently only downloaded under a meg	13:03
macoute	in the same time	13:03
macoute	the traffic is not a problem, but the battery is :/	13:04
GeneralAntilles	Raining like crazy outside	13:04
macoute	it can drain my e51 in about 12h if i leave it open	13:04
GeneralAntilles	made me think I had missed another hurricane.	13:04
johnx	GeneralAntilles, here too. probably a big hurricane :)	13:05
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* GeneralAntilles did that once.		13:05
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GeneralAntilles	"Man, it's raining a lot outside. pulls up wunderground.com Oh . . . tropical storm."	13:05
johnx	we just get typhoons. Not enough wind to do damage ... and I live on top of a hill, so flooding isn't really a concern	13:06
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Stskeeps	johnx: k, and just dpkg -i it	13:18
johnx	sounds good	13:18
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johnx	you optimized locales too? :)	13:22
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Stskeeps	i have no clue if they're optimized ;) i dpkg-buildpackage glibc and other scary things come along	13:23
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johnx	:) well the package is architecture "all" so ...	13:25
Stskeeps	yeah :P	13:25
johnx	installing	13:25
johnx	I take it this is a necessary step before being able to optimize anything higher up?	13:26
Stskeeps	well	13:26
Stskeeps	it's a step ahead	13:26
Stskeeps	i mean, most apps use libc functions	13:27
Stskeeps	if not every	13:27
Stskeeps	libm is part of this too	13:27
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starkholtz	maemo	13:27
johnx	ncsd seg faults	13:27
Stskeeps	the install or?	13:28
Stskeeps	i just installed libc, seemed to work	13:28
Stskeeps	not the nscd	13:28
johnx	Starting Name Service Cache Daemon: nscdSegmentation fault	13:28
johnx	failed!	13:28
starkholtz	maemo	13:28
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Stskeeps	johnx: with the package laying on my repo or without?	13:29
Stskeeps	repo/url	13:29
johnx	with	13:29
Stskeeps	k	13:29
Stskeeps	didn't test that honestly	13:29
johnx	I didn't know if I needed it or not	13:29
Stskeeps	i just applied libc6 and -dev	13:29
starkholtz	maemo	13:29
johnx	hmm, actually I think if you enable vfp you might want to declare a subarchitecture	13:30
Stskeeps	and stuff seems to work :P	13:30
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johnx	anyways, the rest installed ok, so I'll reboot and enjoy the blinding speed	13:30
Stskeeps	k - revert nscd i guess	13:30
Stskeeps	and why a subarchitecture?	13:34
GeneralAntilles	Bizarre	13:34
GeneralAntilles	That guy's been spamming off and on for months.	13:34
johnx	Stskeeps, because vftp packages won't work on armv5te	13:35
Stskeeps	he's chanting maemo maemo maemo	13:35
Stskeeps	johnx: well, this one was optimized for n8x0 specifically	13:35
Stskeeps	this is -vfp thoug	13:35
Stskeeps	h	13:36
johnx	are there armv6 CPUs without vfp?	13:36
kulve	I think so. And I also think that there are armv5 cpus with vfp	13:36
suihkulokki	is there anything else that uses floats in glibc except libm ?	13:36
Stskeeps	good question, but for the apps that use libm this might be an advantage :P	13:37
RST38h	johnx: yes	13:38
RST38h	VFP is really optional	13:39
Stskeeps	johnx: anyway this package was just an attempt to see if it helps any to optimize specifically, not something that'd go in an "ordinary" install	13:39
johnx	of course, just doing a brain-dump over here :)	13:39
Stskeeps	hehe	13:39
* GeneralAntilles wipes johnx's brains off his shoes.		13:40
zap	RST38h: that should be interesting for you: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/10/23/symbian/	13:40
* GeneralAntilles finds it odd that it's taken so long to start getting real computers in cars.		13:42
RST38h	zap: Old news. They are not going to do it right away though	13:43
RST38h	zap: In related news, Sony just announced they are abandoning UIQ.	13:43
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RST38h	General: It took long enough traffic jams so that the drivers could really make use of in-car PCs	13:44
RST38h	A pity that with oil prices going down, we will not see the rise of mass-transit in the US, would be good for the mobile tech	13:45
suihkulokki	Stskeeps: I mean, then you only need to compile a optimized version libm, not the whole shebang	13:46
Stskeeps	suihkulokki: possibly, but did you see glibc package recently? :P	13:47
Stskeeps	it even runs test caes	13:47
Stskeeps	cases	13:47
Stskeeps	(which i disabled after it crashed my builder)	13:47
suihkulokki	and that's good, it makes sure you don't get a broken libc when going all gentoo with buildopts ;)	13:47
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Stskeeps	hehe	13:47
suihkulokki	I take it that the last test you saw was tst-robust1 ? :)	13:48
Stskeeps	wordexp, scaringily	13:48
suihkulokki	that doesn't sound healthy	13:49
Stskeeps	well it is a qemu armel builder, so	13:50
Stskeeps	didn't expect that much of it :) low mem and all	13:50
Stskeeps	i will engage some beagle boards eventually for it instead	13:50
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Stskeeps	johnx: any noticable difference?	13:57
johnx	running aptitude to install things...it actually does feel a little better	13:59
Stskeeps	k	13:59
johnx	not sure if that's confirmation bias :P	13:59
Stskeeps	i have no idea either	13:59
johnx	we'll need to time some stuff I guess	13:59
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Stskeeps	i wonder if there's even glibc benchmarks, heh	14:01
johnx	well, we can test stuff higher up that's heavy on libm	14:01
Stskeeps	true	14:01
johnx	apt-* is linked against libm	14:02
johnx	maybe it was actually faster O_o	14:02
Stskeeps	what else is there.. cairo?	14:05
johnx	lots of stuff	14:05
johnx	ldd /usr/bin/* \| less	14:05
johnx	/libm	14:05
johnx	python :)	14:06
johnx	X	14:07
Stskeeps	hehe	14:07
* Stskeeps glances at prelik		14:07
johnx	and midori	14:07
Stskeeps	prelink	14:07
Stskeeps	i'm going to recompile cairo too and see if that makes a difference	14:10
Stskeeps	(and some of the dependancies that might like it)	14:10
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aquatix	hm: http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=14496	14:14
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johnx	interesting :)	14:15
GeneralAntilles	Drivers for what?	14:15
GeneralAntilles	Does TI have a wifi chipset?	14:15
johnx	that's a really good question	14:16
suihkulokki	yes	14:16
suihkulokki	google wilink	14:16
Stskeeps	i think i saw it in android source	14:17
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TokyoDan	Hello. Is there some kind of lock on files created with an editor like PyGTKEditor that prevent the permissions from being changed?	14:46
TokyoDan	I created a python file called Hello.py the I open the X Terminal do a ls -l and see that the file is 644 and owned by User. I try chmod 777 on it but it remains 644. Funny thing is if i do chmod 111 the the permissions become ---------.	14:46
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TokyoDan	I can take away priveleges but I can't add priveleges higher than what the file was originally created with.	14:49
GeneralAntilles	Are you root?	14:49
johnx	is the file on your sd card?	14:49
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TokyoDan	Hello GeneralAntilles:& johnx. I tried as both user and root. And the file is on the internal sd card.	14:50
johnx	two things: file systems that are formatted as FAT can't really hold file permissions. Also, the internal card is mounted noexec	14:51
TokyoDan	How can I get around that. Use only internal memory?	14:52
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TokyoDan	I'm trying to execute a Python file by just typing the file name at the shell prompt.	14:53
johnx	just use the internal memory	14:53
johnx	that's the easiest way	14:53
johnx	there are other solutions, but I don't think they're necessary	14:53
TokyoDan	Is there a way t change the "noexec" mount of the internal card?	14:54
GeneralAntilles	andre___, EXCUUUUSEEE MEEEE :P	14:54
johnx	of course	14:54
johnx	mount -o remount,exec /media/mmc2	14:54
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andre___	GeneralAntilles, i do, i do.	14:55
TokyoDan	Will that stick even after a power reset? And will it have any adverse effects?	14:55
andre___	:-D	14:55
GeneralAntilles	andre___, guenther?	14:55
andre___	no idea at all, shall I call him?	14:55
johnx	TokyoDan, no adverse effects. it won't stick	14:55
johnx	you'll have to go and change some scripts I guess	14:55
GeneralAntilles	Doesn't he have a quota or something? :P	14:55
TokyoDan	Thanks johnx. I guess I'll take your advice and use the internal memory.	14:56
andre___	GeneralAntilles, no idea, last time i spoke with him was two weeks ago and he was still busy understanding new stuff	14:56
johnx	if you want to be able to type: my-program.py and have it run you should put it in /usr/bin after you're done editing it anyways	14:57
GeneralAntilles	The lynch-pin people on all my pet projects are going missing. :(	14:57
GeneralAntilles	First guenther, now jott. . . .	14:57
TokyoDan	Johnx, is that a comma or a period between remount and exec?	14:57
johnx	comma	14:57
TokyoDan	Thanks again for your help. I've been pissing around for an hour trying to change the permission of that file.	14:58
johnx	blame MS for a backwards filesystem :)	14:58
GeneralAntilles	When are we going to get a compatible filesystem that isn't absolute shit?	14:59
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johnx	when MS dies off or is forced to interoperate (as it dies off)	15:00
TokyoDan	Well I've been learning a lot about the N810 and refreshing my long lost knowledge of UNIX thanks to you guys here and on ITT.	15:01
TokyoDan	Just getting back into programming vi Python after a 15 year absence.	15:02
johnx	you were doing python 15 years ago?	15:03
johnx	very early in the game :)	15:03
GeneralAntilles	via, johnx. :P	15:03
johnx	ah	15:03
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TokyoDan	Not Python, other languages. Python is all new to me.	15:04
TokyoDan	various assembly langs, basic, C, smalltalk.	15:05
GeneralAntilles	That just cracks me up that turning on the screen to display that stupid banner about the wallwart wastes more power than would be saved by unplugging it.	15:07
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TokyoDan1	Back via n810/pidgin	15:15
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Are you sure that an idle charger doesn't waste any power? Pretty hard to believe.	15:17
johnx	X-Fade, check out the bug report...let me find the number	15:17
GeneralAntilles	xM5x tested it	15:17
johnx	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2285#c10	15:18
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Jaffa	The final comment asserts that the message uses more power than the 264 & 609 microA measured. Or is the 609 microA for "Adapter #2" when the thing wakes up	15:20
GeneralAntilles	Two different chargers	15:20
GeneralAntilles	Both idle	15:20
TokyoDan1	Johnx, where did you say i should put python scripts after editing? And why?	15:21
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: So where's the measurement to back up the assertion? It seems odd to carefully measure two idle chargers (with an enormous difference in idle current) but then just say the tablet's message uses more energy; without any figure.	15:22
johnx	TokyoDan1, in /usr/bin because that's in your $PATH	15:22
X-Fade	So that is 14 milliamp hours wasted per day?	15:22
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GAN800	The detailed numbers are on itT.	15:23
Jaffa	GAN800: then a link to the post needs to be added to the bug report ;-)	15:23
Jaffa	For my next trick, I've got some eggs I can show you how to suck	15:24
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GAN800	Jaffa, what's the point? The message isn't ever going away anyway.	15:25
Jaffa	Then what's the point of the bug?	15:26
TokyoDan1	That makes sense johnx.	15:26
GAN800	Jaffa, I can't just let idiocy like that go down without any objection.	15:26
Jaffa	Either it's a realistic attempt to change the behaviour, especially if the reasoning behind it is empirically provable as faulty, or it's just noise in Bugzilla to act as a rant.	15:26
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GAN800	Well, it's a legislative issue, apparentlt	15:27
Jaffa	Really? In what region?	15:27
GAN800	So it's out of Nokia's hands.	15:27
X-Fade	Let me guess. California ;)	15:28
GAN800	I don't know specifics, but so says a Nokia employee.	15:28
GAN800	EU, apparently.	15:29
Jaffa	Bollocks	15:29
GAN800	From Europe? I'd expect it. . . .	15:29
Jaffa	My brand new non-Nokia phone doesn't do anything like that, manufactured within the EU; sold by an EU-based company and sold within the EU to an EU citizen.	15:29
Jaffa	GAN800: You read too much of the _Daily Mail_ or the _Daily Express_.	15:29
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GAN800	Could be a more general pro-green sort of deal	15:30
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GAN800	Neither, actually	15:30
GAN800	But with the baffling sorts of directions politics takes over there	15:31
suihkulokki	heh	15:31
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Jaffa	You're also beginning to sound like Karel with his "all Europeans are bending over to let Islam shaft them" (or somesuch)	15:31
* GAN800 shrugs		15:32
GAN800	Whatever, the banner's stupid and needs to go away	15:32
GAN800	I don't care if it draws as much power as my computer, my devices don't get to tell me what to do.	15:32
* X-Fade has other problems to worry about. This is just a stupid waste of time ;)		15:32
Jaffa	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm - for example	15:33
suihkulokki	well it's easy to imagine how the banner came to life	15:33
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suihkulokki	some green delegation comes to meet $bigcompany, waves furiously hands and complans that $bigcompany isn't doing enough for enviroiment	15:34
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suihkulokki	$bigcompany boss promisest to do more	15:34
suihkulokki	..and passes the message down "do something to make us look more enviroimental"	15:35
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* GeneralAntilles needs to get moving on killing the old wiki.		15:41
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, can you figure out what you want the redirect pages to look like?	15:42
GeneralAntilles	Then I'll take your template and fill them all out.	15:42
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: What redirects?	15:42
GeneralAntilles	For the popular pages on the old wiki to the new wiki.	15:43
GeneralAntilles	http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Kill_the_old_wiki	15:43
GeneralAntilles	Will somebody educate this guy about Red Pill already? http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=236302&postcount=91	15:43
zs	hi is it possible to create fiasco image from n810 after update?	15:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Do you need a page for that? Why not just do an actual redirect?	15:43
GeneralAntilles	That's the plan, but I wasn't sure on the specifics	15:44
X-Fade	I think you can create redirect folders for them.	15:46
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GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, redirection seems to only be to other wiki articles	15:49
X-Fade	You can do it to urls too, I think.	15:50
GeneralAntilles	Seems like an http redirect would be cleaner	15:51
X-Fade	It can do that.	15:51
GeneralAntilles	Midgard terrifies me. :(	15:51
X-Fade	Let me see if I can find the option ;)	15:51
X-Fade	Or we can do it via Apache rewrite rules?	15:54
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GAN800	I dunno, that's why I'm asking you. :P I just know I want page a to point to page b.	15:56
GAN800	dneary, are you satisfied with the current list of copies and redirects?	15:57
X-Fade	GAN800: Just give me a list with:	15:58
X-Fade	RewriteRule ^/community/wiki/blablablapagehere http://wiki.maemo.org/blablapagehere	15:58
X-Fade	Should be pretty straight forward.	15:58
GAN800	I need a couple more people to compare the lists and then we can do it.	15:59
X-Fade	Ok, well I can setup the apache server to do the redirects.	15:59
GAN800	Though I wonder how many pages on the site are linking to the old wiki.	16:00
X-Fade	That doesn't matter as they will get redirected ?	16:00
GAN800	Well, not every page is getting a redirect	16:00
X-Fade	No, but we can make a catch-all one.	16:01
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dneary	GAN800: The one I added to last week?	16:05
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GAN800	Yeah	16:07
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Stskeeps	johnx: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/cairo/libpixman-1-0_0.10.0-2_armel.deb , http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/cairo/libcairo2_1.6.4-6_armel.deb	16:10
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johnx	Stskeeps, great! I'll install those and give midori a try	16:11
suihkulokki	johnx: dromaeo.com before and after?	16:12
* Stskeeps is really bad at noticing performance differences himself		16:13
johnx	suihkulokki, to see if cairo will affect js performance much? or should I switch back to a non-vfp glibc first?	16:13
johnx	I'll switch back to non-vfp everything for baseline	16:13
johnx	couple minutes...	16:13
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X-Fade	GAN800: About the usage of wrong sections: I've asked Ed if he can implement a rule to force all "wrong" sections to user/other in the autobuilder.	16:24
X-Fade	GAN800: I'll find out if we can do that easily and after that will write up a proposal for moving forward.	16:25
GeneralAntilles	Graham flipped a shit last time that was suggested.	16:25
X-Fade	Hehe, we talked with him at the summit.	16:26
X-Fade	I think Jaffa and I can talk with him if that is the case.	16:27
GeneralAntilles	Honestly, I'd rather see it implemented either as a simple warning (or maybe a complete built-refusal at the autobuilder level) and handle the section enforcement at the Application manager level.	16:27
X-Fade	Well, the warning will come as soon as we have a list ;)	16:27
GeneralAntilles	Of course.	16:27
Jaffa	Indeed, isn't it the App Mgr's job to ignore sections, rather than making the autobuilder move them?	16:28
X-Fade	So we might want to get a preliminary list over the weekend.	16:28
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Jaffa	That just encourages people to get sniffy about the autobuilder. Have it as a warning, but then we make App Mgr only show the standard (and i18nable) sections	16:28
Jaffa	X-Fade: agreed	16:28
X-Fade	Jaffa: But there is my main issue:	16:29
X-Fade	If we are going for the subsections, do we want to create all subsections beforehand.	16:29
Jaffa	Ah. True.	16:29
* GeneralAntilles hates categorization so much.		16:30
X-Fade	Or do we want to allow people to create _sub_sections themselves ;)	16:30
Jaffa	That's a more specific case of the problem I just thought of: changing the sections without redeploying	16:30
GeneralAntilles	I was looking for inspiration on the types of sections that might be useful	16:30
GeneralAntilles	it's interesting to see the sorts of systems other people use	16:31
GeneralAntilles	http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/	16:31
Jaffa	I'm relatively happy with arbitrary subsections, as long as they are named after the package, rather than some arbitrary thing the developer thinks other people should use	16:31
johnx	suihkulokki, ok, that site is just crashing debian's midori...	16:31
X-Fade	about omap3 and better camera: user/imaging ? :)	16:31
GeneralAntilles	or http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.category&PartnerREF=&siteid=1	16:31
GeneralAntilles	Multimedia?	16:31
Jaffa	Video's multimedia; pics aren't.	16:31
GeneralAntilles	Where would GIMP, or MyPaint go?	16:33
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X-Fade	It might be a good thing to write a description for all categorie with what type of applications should be put there.	16:34
* Jaffa finds Ubuntu's menu structure quite close to how I (manually) organise my Windows start menu:		16:34
GeneralAntilles	What about user/system?	16:34
GeneralAntilles	Nokia uses it for osso-software-version	16:34
GeneralAntilles	Would something like a rotation-support metapackage go there or Support?	16:35
Jaffa	Accessories, Games, Graphics, Internet(/Networking), Office, Programming, Sound & Video, System(/System Tools).	16:35
Jaffa	"Support" sounds useless to me. But I've not looked at the rationale recently.	16:35
johnx	GeneralAntilles, I vote "System" for that	16:35
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Jaffa	rotation-support is user/system - it's something the user installs once and never accesses as an application	16:35
X-Fade	Jaffa: Support can be help documentation, language support etc?	16:36
GNUton	hi	16:36
Mek	http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html has the list of categories for the freedesktop.org menu spec	16:36
GeneralAntilles	Currently, OpenAFS, krb5, and libillumination0 are in user/support	16:36
X-Fade	Mek: Interesting.	16:37
Jaffa	X-Fade: "Documentation" or "Help" would seem better. Language support for the OS, is an interesting question. But for a particular app it should be something like "user/multimedia/Canola", "Package: canola-language-pack-ru" (or something)	16:37
Jaffa	Mek: ta.	16:38
Jaffa	Yeah, I like those :)	16:38
X-Fade	Jaffa: Rule one: Never _ever_ capitalize ;)	16:38
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lopz	hola	16:38
Jaffa	X-Fade: If subsections are used to package together all the Canola crap, etc. how can we handle the display of the sub-section being possibly different to the key, then?	16:39
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X-Fade	Jaffa: Localization.	16:40
X-Fade	Jaffa: So the 'technical english' term is used for the packager. And the AM shows it localized?	16:40
Jaffa	Ye-es. But in the specific Canola example, the system's not going to be able to have l10n for 'canola' before installing some Canola-related package.	16:41
Jaffa	X-Fade: Or are you envisaging sub-sections for not grouping together the multi-package app stuff?	16:41
X-Fade	Jaffa: Well, I'm not sure about that.	16:42
X-Fade	It all depends on how we can transform the AM.	16:42
X-Fade	This whole mess would be better if the AM displayed it better.	16:42
GeneralAntilles	I wonder if we'll be able to talk m-vo into tossing in a few minor changes to make the categories view mildly bearable.	16:42
X-Fade	But still.	16:42
Jaffa	X-Fade: ah :)	16:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: I have talked with mvo about that in the past.	16:43
GeneralAntilles	I'd like to see at least one of my improved views implemented	16:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: He was willing to give some people access to the svn as long as they worked in a separate branch.	16:43
GeneralAntilles	But I doubt he has time on that.	16:43
GeneralAntilles	s/on/for/	16:43
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: But I doubt he has time for that.	16:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Correct, he doesn't have the time. But does want to patch if a patch is ready.	16:44
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, I've yet to get anybody to step up for that so far. :\	16:44
Jaffa	Patches should work, as long as a) they get accepted; b) they don't duplicate work he's already doing	16:44
Jaffa	lardman and I started discussing having time for it.	16:44
GeneralAntilles	Really wish we knew something about what sort of direction Fremantle will be taking. . . .	16:44
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: I'm no gtk wizard, I'm afraid ;)	16:44
Jaffa	Last weekend's room rearrangement took about 1.5 days longer than the 1 day I allocated, though	16:44
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: indeed.	16:44
Jaffa	The existing UI's hardly a compelling finger experience (mmm, just make the buttons bigger)	16:45
Jaffa	I like the old idea of a tag cloud	16:45
GeneralAntilles	Wish the list rendering were optimized	16:45
Jaffa	If you've just got a device and are going to install something to play with it, what category has the most breadth	16:45
X-Fade	Jaffa: And add a thumb scroll bar ;)	16:46
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: s/optimized/in any way sensible/	16:46
GeneralAntilles	I still don't get why it needs to regenerate the whole damn list.	16:46
Jaffa	X-Fade: :)	16:46
MangoFusion	why even have categories anyway	16:46
X-Fade	Jaffa: Well you laugh, but things like that would help a lot ;)	16:46
MangoFusion	usually if i want to install something, i already know what it is called	16:46
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Because it's a frontend, and isn't fully integrated into apt. So it doesn't know what packages have been installed when you install package `a'.	16:46
Jaffa	MangoFusion: Effectively - at the moment - we don't.	16:46
GeneralAntilles	Personally, I like browsing.	16:47
Jaffa	MangoFusion: There's a use case of "I want to install a video player, don't show me bible reading software"; or "I want a new game"	16:47
GeneralAntilles	But the "All" list is starting to get a bit big for that.	16:47
MangoFusion	i guess	16:47
MangoFusion	in any case	16:47
MangoFusion	would be nice if i could quickly see the description of an app	16:47
GeneralAntilles	I want some "New packages" and "Popular packages" buttons hooked into Downloads.	16:48
MangoFusion	most of the time it just lists an ambiguous name (if it does fit on the screen)	16:48
X-Fade	MangoFusion: True, but you won't be able to do that with 'ALL' in a list of 500 entries or more ;)	16:48
MangoFusion	bah, i'll just let you guy's sort it out ;)	16:49
GeneralAntilles	So many ideas, too few people with the time and skills to implement them.	16:50
Jaffa	Or inclination without, as you say, knowing what Nokia's plans are (there must be some)	16:51
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: I have the solution!	16:51
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Make AM a Maemo 5 champion!	16:51
Jaffa	Generally, software (including Maemo) improves over time. Why bother hurting ourselves now when Nokia might do it "for us" over then ext 9 moonths	16:51
GeneralAntilles	Ha	16:51
Jaffa	Actually, that's not a bad idea	16:51
X-Fade	The killer app we want Nokia to support!	16:51
Jaffa	In fact, I think it's a reallt good idea.	16:52
GeneralAntilles	I was going to say "Tie rm_you to a desk and make him work 24/7 Clockwork Orange style?"	16:52
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johnx	GeneralAntilles, I'll get on that. I need a supply of Dr. Pepper and ... no that's about it	16:53
* GeneralAntilles chains johnx to the floor behind rm_you		16:53
GeneralAntilles	Now you make sure he doesn't sleep. :P	16:53
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X-Fade	But actually, it would be worth a shot.	16:53
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GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, yeah, I actually like that idea.	16:54
RST38h	Umgh	16:54
GeneralAntilles	If only to see Quim's reaction.	16:54
Jaffa	Indeed. As a community we want to explore the available apps and have a nice gateway for it.	16:54
RST38h	AbiWord. Do we have AbiWord already?	16:54
GeneralAntilles	In beta	16:54
Jaffa	Not reliabilty	16:54
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RST38h	BTW, when you say "explore the available apps" what do you mean?	17:16
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RST38h	There are basically ~20-30 really usable/useful Maemo apps and pretty much everybody knows what these are	17:16
johnx	new apps do sometimes appear in app manager with little or no announcement	17:17
GAN800	There are new things coming out	17:17
X-Fade	GAN800, Jaffa: Interesting document: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/doc/mvo/system-model-2.txt	17:17
X-Fade	It seems mvo is working on this too ;)	17:18
Jaffa	X[FA	17:19
Jaffa	Bah.	17:19
Jaffa	X-Fade: some very interesting things in there :)	17:19
X-Fade	Jaffa: Yeah, but that seems to be Harmattan stuff.	17:20
Jaffa	indeed	17:20
Jaffa	OS2020	17:20
X-Fade	Something like that :)	17:20
GAN800	'shot on sight' hehe	17:22
X-Fade	At least that will give us something to talk about ;)	17:23
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johnx	suihkulokki, I'm running the sunspider benchmark instead. dromaeo was just crashing the browser	17:24
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yacoob	RST38h, is there a list of those 20-30 apps? :)	17:46
johnx	yeah, on any post where someone asks "What are the best appzzzz?" on itt...	17:47
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GeneralAntilles	~must-haves	17:49
GeneralAntilles	~musthaves	17:49
GeneralAntilles	~musthave	17:49
infobot	methinks musthave is Maemo Mapper, FBReader, Vagalume, Canola, Numpty Physics, X-Chat, Evince, ScummVM, MyTube, MPlayer, Advanced Backlight, USBControl, Large Statusbar Clock, Transmission and much more. Also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Remarkable_community_projects	17:49
LinuxCode	amsn!	17:49
yacoob	GeneralAntilles, any reason not to create a rudimentary 'Notable apps' page? with a content from the referenced page?	17:50
GAN800	Because that's already the page?	17:50
GAN800	No sense duplicating it	17:50
yacoob	(and person that put fennec on 'release quality' list must be out of his/her mind :)	17:50
GAN800	You could create a redirect if you wanted, though.	17:51
yacoob	GAN800, not really something that a passer-by would find by title. And yeah, redirect I'll make.	17:51
GAN800	Add it to one of the front page templates, too, if you want.	17:52
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yacoob	no anonymomus edits	17:52
yacoob	heh :)	17:52
GAN800	https	17:52
yacoob	well, tbh, I'd either reformat the page (to remove stuff that might confuse person not familiar with the organizational work behind it), or just create a new one with just a list of apps	17:55
RST38h	yacoob: yes, look at maemo.org in Downloads, under Popular and Stars	17:56
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Stskeeps	johnx: any benefit?	18:04
johnx	I'm doing the test with vfp libs installed right now	18:05
qwerty12	Stskeeps: Dunno about wifi mac but bluetooth mac is easy as hell to change on N800	18:05
Stskeeps	johnx: alright	18:05
johnx	wifi mac is easy enough to change too :)	18:05
Stskeeps	qwerty12: ok, well, using ifconfig yes	18:05
Stskeeps	i was just wondering if MAC comes from CAL	18:05
qwerty12	Stskeeps: Hmm, you can do it like that? I just run echo after bt-cal has done its stuff	18:06
qwerty12	johnx: But does it work properly? I hear people have problems associating with APs?	18:06
Stskeeps	qwerty12: yeah, when we didn't have wlan-cal i ifconfiged	18:06
johnx	qwerty12, in os2008 yes	18:06
qwerty12	ah, ok. I just remember the "cracking" map application thread...	18:07
johnx	or rather it doesn't work well in os2008	18:07
johnx	it does work well in a bare debian install	18:07
johnx	it probably doesn't work all that well in deblet with nokia stuff running	18:07
qwerty12	cal is equivalent to nvram on routers. Does nothing except store information and programs read it and do the dirty work	18:08
qwerty12	Hmm, what is the codename for N800?	18:09
yacoob	does this osmo thing does a good job at being a pim?	18:09
qwerty12	Ahh, Nokia Gagarin	18:10
Stskeeps	yacoob: if they fixed some pixel and not variable width/heights, it would be good on tablet	18:10
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yacoob	need to give it a try then, once I get my nokia back	18:12
yacoob	unless it doesn't sound the alarms when asleep?	18:12
lbt	'lo	18:12
Stskeeps	yacoob: patches.. :P	18:13
Stskeeps	lo lbt	18:15
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johnx	grrr...re-running in performance mode so that it's actually a valid comparison...	18:17
Stskeeps	im wondering if i should make a daemon listening on charger events to enable performance mode / ondemand	18:18
qwerty12	Stskeeps: get in touch with lcuk	18:18
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Stskeeps	qwerty12: i know how to do it :P	18:18
solmumaha	Stskeeps: i thought about that too, that feature would be nice for advanced backlight for example	18:19
qwerty12	Stskeeps: I don't doubt it but if its already been done...	18:19
Stskeeps	qwerty12: it's a dbus listener at most :P	18:19
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solmumaha	slider for different modes and an option to switch to performance when charging	18:20
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GAN800	Somebody should write an adv battery instead.	18:21
Jaffa	Yes, making advanced-backloght the default "let's make it do everything better" is feeping creaturism.	18:22
Stskeeps	GAN800: i still wonder what austin che will make of his BME crackin'	18:23
GAN800	An adv-battery shouldn't be all that difficult to implement.	18:23
Stskeeps	GAN800: moontiger was working on a generic HAL battery applet at some point	18:23
MangoFusion	adv-battery... what, does that make the tablet cry if its running low on power?	18:24
MangoFusion	or maybe its a big funky battery image	18:25
Stskeeps	"Keep the charger in, you dumbwit. It's more practical"	18:25
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johnx	maybe adv-power would be a better name	18:25
johnx	Stskeeps, vfp makes midori a little slower at javascript it seems :/	18:26
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Stskeeps	johnx: k	18:27
johnx	let me post results	18:27
Stskeeps	it's kinda hard to argue - was it with or without cache?	18:27
lbt	Stskeeps: work... hi, it's been a while!!	18:28
johnx	Stskeeps, it was rerun 5 times each	18:28
johnx	performance mode both times	18:28
Stskeeps	lbt: indeed	18:29
Stskeeps	johnx: alright	18:29
johnx	http://www2.webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider-results.html?{%223d-cube%22:[3635,3693,4060,3501,3420],%223d-morph%22:[8314,8433,8570,8936,9002],%223d-raytrace%22:[4526,4229,4177,4306,4466],%22access-binary-trees%22:[1510,1384,1477,1438,1515],%22access-fannkuch%22:[1401,1389,1381,1400,1451],%22access-nbody%22:[6509,6717,6341,6053,5946],%22access-nsieve%22:[955,914,933,881,907],%22bitops-3bit-bits-in-byte%22:[581,468,553,436,456]	18:30
johnx	,%22bitops-bits-in-byte%22:[524,572,596,639,525],%22bitops-bitwise-and%22:[1399,2285,1394,1361,1375],%22bitops-nsieve-bits%22:[1921,1845,2079,1801,1812],%22controlflow-recursive%22:[574,589,544,613,544],%22crypto-aes%22:[1377,1420,1432,1452,1395],%22crypto-md5%22:[1669,1824,1833,1762,1832],%22crypto-sha1%22:[1795,1759,1763,1733,1749],%22date-format-tofte%22:[4822,4757,4831,4722,4850],%22date-format-xparb%22:[4401,4526,4468,4427,4493	18:30
johnx	],%22math-cordic%22:[3549,3615,3334,3605,3106],%22math-partial-sums%22:[8309,8553,8611,8429,8379],%22math-spectral-norm%22:[2123,2197,2017,2006,2216],%22regexp-dna%22:[3843,3889,3913,3837,3907],%22string-base64%22:[3832,3760,3711,3787,3924],%22string-fasta%22:[4378,4393,4325,4288,4359],%22string-tagcloud%22:[4437,4421,4571,4426,4429],%22string-unpack-code%22:[5942,6057,6178,6181,6080],%22string-validate-input%22:[4433,4471,4482,4514	18:30
johnx	,4447]}	18:30
Stskeeps	jesus crist	18:30
johnx	eep	18:30
johnx	sorry O_o	18:30
Stskeeps	tinyurl	18:30
qwerty12	Pastebin, please!	18:30
MangoFusion	aieeeee!	18:30
qwerty12	OMG	18:30
qwerty12	RUN	18:30
johnx	sorry, didn't realize ;-_-	18:31
Stskeeps	i just got assaulted by an url :(	18:31
Stskeeps	;)	18:31
glass	huh	18:32
johnx	this is w/ vfp: http://tinyurl.com/55lhhc	18:32
glass	does the friggin url contain the entire page encoded	18:32
johnx	yes	18:33
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johnx	apparently :/	18:33
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johnx	I just did a ctrl+l, ctrl+c, ctrl+p so I never saw the whole thing	18:33
johnx	without vfp: http://tinyurl.com/6d3e9x	18:33
Stskeeps	mm, confidence intervals may indicate they're similar maybe	18:34
johnx	interestingly a zaurus running angstrom completes the tests faster but with only 64MB it's a much worse real-world browsing experience	18:34
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Stskeeps	mm	18:38
johnx	back later	18:42
nemo	johnx: what browser is that?	18:43
nemo	johnx: be aware that sunspider has a bug in it which will hurt Gecko performance	18:43
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nemo	I don't think it has been fixed yet	18:44
nemo	"bug"	18:44
nemo	"deliberately placed flag that everyone ignores except gecko" :)	18:44
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nemo	granted, that's only in one test	18:44
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l7	hrm, does anyone know how i can kill a misbehaving desktop widget?	18:58
l7	i think omweather is causing my n800 to be unable to finish booting	18:58
l7	where are the startup variables for the widgets?	18:59
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: i kinda don't disagree with qgil's view on things really, from nokia's pov, so i'm not sure i would be able to argue, - except contribute directions	18:59
qwerty12	l7: for omweather, put a file called noomweather.txt in your internal memory card and omweather wont start	19:00
Stskeeps	just looking closer at the mails now	19:00
`Mace	wtf is going on with this goddamn key	19:02
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: but he's really saying it quite clearly, which may be the death of maemo eventually, "We have 0 plans of moving Maemo into that direction."	19:02
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Stskeeps	which means nokia sees maemo as firmware for their tablets, and they provide a sdk for that device, and that's that	19:03
l7	hrm, trying that now	19:03
Stskeeps	like a typical hardware/engineering company	19:03
Stskeeps	and try to play nice and support the community around it	19:04
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l7	qwerty12: does anything need to be in noomweather.txt?	19:24
qwerty12	l7: no	19:24
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l7	hmm, i put the file in /media/mmc2/	19:24
l7	doesn't seem to have changed anything	19:25
qwerty12	:/	19:25
l7	it looks like the UI won't load completely	19:25
l7	i get the sidebar on the left side, but it's blank	19:25
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l7	i don't suppose there's a safe mode you can boot into that would allow you to uninstall problematic stuff?	19:29
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l7	bleh, i guess i'll just reflash	19:32
l7	hrm, where's that wiki article on reflashing?	19:33
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l7	hrm, is there a mirror of the maemo wiki?	19:34
Pavlov	is there a way to make a full backup of my device so i can flash a different image on it and then restore it?	19:34
l7	hrm, setting up booting from SD seems like the best solution for that	19:41
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Stskeeps	wtf @ google	20:00
Stskeeps	i search for upstart moblin	20:00
Stskeeps	and it searches for upstart goblin instead without telling me	20:00
qwerty12	Yu-Gi-Oh!	20:00
qwerty12	God, I remember my brother watching that shit...	20:01
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disco_stu	qwerty12: lol	20:03
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Stskeeps	yes, your "brother"..	20:04
Stskeeps	;)	20:04
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qwerty12	Erm, oops, I've been caught out	20:04
Stskeeps	hehe	20:04
* Stskeeps ponders idly on a quest		20:04
disco_stu	i have 25 episodes of dragon ball in my tablet	20:06
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disco_stu	that is a nice series	20:06
Stskeeps	qwerty12: am i insane if im pondering if i can debootstrap based on http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/?	20:07
qwerty12	Stskeeps: And end up with some weird, uncompleted maemo clone? :P	20:07
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Stskeeps	qwerty12: well, also to prove a point	20:08
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Stskeeps	that it may not be possible to construct maemo from the stuff they released	20:08
ShadowJK_	what bits are missing?	20:09
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* Stskeeps should really stop caring and code instead		20:10
ShadowJK_	Let me guess, the community wants maemo to run on other devices too and think it'd make sense and would fight against google's android, but nokia wants it just on their own tablets and still cling desperately to symbian+s60?	20:11
Stskeeps	yes, that's about right	20:11
ShadowJK_	They should just make their execs use the tablet	20:12
ShadowJK_	before I had used the nit I thought using Linux on a mobile device was pure insanity	20:13
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Sargun_Screen	I don't care who maemo works with	20:16
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Sargun_Screen	just as long as its me	20:16
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l7	hrm, file manager has a link to backup/restore in it's tools menu	20:18
l7	doesn't really seem to make sense	20:18
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* Jaffa bingles free wifi at Wetherspoons before _Hamlet_		20:21
Jaffa	David Tennant & Patrick Stewart Shakespearey goodness	20:23
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RST38h	Dr Who and Jean Luke Picard in Hamlet? =)	20:29
RST38h	Do tardis and Enterprise make appearance?	20:29
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smackpotato	is there any way i can make the curser visible at any time other than startup	20:33
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Stskeeps	ShadowJK_: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-October/035376.html	20:39
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Stskeeps	ShadowJK_: and that kinda has made me give up on the maemo platform as anything i'd invest time in developing for	20:41
Stskeeps	tablet hw, principle, sure, but not as worthwhile platform	20:42
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ShadowJK_	Well, their idea isn't bad per se	20:43
ShadowJK_	it's just that with their elephant in a porcelain store approach to opensauce they dont exactly attract much goodwill :)	20:44
Stskeeps	indeed - contributing back and such, but keeping the changes hidden until last minute :P	20:44
ShadowJK_	oh that's not unlike android	20:45
ShadowJK_	but google had shitloads of karma to blow away when they began	20:45
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Khertan_n810	Hi !	20:55
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Stskeeps	hi Khertan_n810	20:57
Khertan_n810	hi Stskeeps	20:57
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* Khertan_n810 is still finding a way to display nicely a list of alarm ..		20:59
Khertan_n810	s/finding/searching	21:00
* Stskeeps should vacuum the house		21:00
Stskeeps	gf coming back tonight after 3 weeks gone	21:01
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Khertan_n810	héhé	21:01
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RST38h	Khertan: What are the requirements?	21:10
RST38h	Khertan: Do you show by day, week, month? What is your granularity?	21:10
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RST38h	Oct 24, 1929: Wall St crash	21:14
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Stskeeps	heh	21:16
Stskeeps	now that would be irony	21:16
lcuk	~lart microsoft outlook	21:17
* infobot pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps microsoft outlook		21:17
* lcuk feels a bit better		21:17
lcuk	~lart microsoft outlook	21:17
* infobot whips microsoft outlook with a wet and grimy noodle just because		21:17
RST38h	why use it?	21:18
lcuk	thats the point i dont	21:18
lcuk	but after windows update it came back	21:19
RST38h	KILL	21:19
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lcuk	:) now you see my angst	21:19
lcuk	am i the only one thankful its friday?	21:20
Khertan_n810	why using window ?	21:20
Khertan_n810	hi lcuk :)	21:20
* RST38h is ok about other days too		21:20
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, 'ell no :p. i get a week off :D	21:20
lcuk	heh evening khertan - for about 3 reasons	21:20
lcuk	you jammy b'strd	21:21
Khertan_n810	RST38h: for alarm ?	21:21
Khertan_n810	just datetime	21:21
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RST38h	Khertan: what I really want to know is whether you want to show a single alarm only, or all the alarms for some time period	21:22
RST38h	depending on which one it is, the ui will be different	21:22
lcuk	or just the list of all alarms known to the system	21:23
Khertan_n810	ah all alarms for an events	21:24
RST38h	if it is just one alarm, then use huge letters centered at the screen and simulate those flip-over displays is possible	21:24
Khertan_n810	lcuk: jammy b'strd ??	21:24
RST38h	all alarms globally, use a time-sorted vertical list	21:25
RST38h	if it is alarms-by day, use vertical list for days and divide each list item vertically by hour	21:25
lcuk	heh khertan, it was aimed at qwerty12_N800, i dont know how to pronounce it without sounding northen	21:25
qwerty12_N800	lol	21:25
lcuk	how many alarms are people expecting?	21:25
Khertan_n810	in fact in next futur beautifull better calendar ever seen in the universe	21:25
Khertan_n810	an event can have	21:26
Khertan_n810	multiple alarms	21:26
RST38h	btw, check how Papyrus does it - you may get some ideas	21:26
Khertan_n810	on a single event	21:26
RST38h	Papyrus is very popular	21:26
lcuk	and? those are reminders beforehand and shouldnt be part of the typical views?	21:26
Khertan_n810	papyrus ?	21:26
lcuk	anymore than a dot somewhere at least	21:26
Khertan_n810	they found how to include alarm in papyrus by a genetic way ?	21:27
lcuk	"in 3 minutes the alarm will go off to remind you that in 5 minutes an alarm will be going off to remind you that a task should have been finished 5 minutes before"	21:27
lcuk	just show the tasks and events - and if those tasks have reminder bings they dont need disyplaying on the generic list	21:27
Khertan_n810	hum ... i could add this option for you lcuk :)	21:27
lcuk	\o	21:27
lcuk	o/	21:27
Khertan_n810	this is for editing it :)	21:28
RST38h	Khertan: http://www.smartphone.net/software_detail.asp?id=1085	21:28
Khertan_n810	not displaying it in the generic list	21:28
lcuk	how many reminders do you need?	21:28
Khertan_n810	sometimes 7 or 8 :)	21:28
lcuk	fix the problem upstream	21:28
Khertan_n810	it s not a problem	21:29
lcuk	so for 1 event you need 7 reminders?	21:29
Khertan_n810	yep example ... one event starting monday and finishing friday	21:29
Khertan_n810	you can need event each day at 9h	21:30
Khertan_n810	:)	21:30
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lcuk	thats a recurring event with 5 instances though, different to reminders for a single event	21:31
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RST38h	Khertan: use colors	21:32
Khertan_n810	not reccuring ... it a single event wich is 5 day long	21:32
RST38h	lcuk: I think he needs an event that lasts multiple days	21:32
lcuk	i know the problem, outlook does it	21:32
RST38h	Khertan: Ok, let us say you have a vertical list by day.	21:32
Khertan_n810	no no i just need a way to display thing nicely to edit the reminder list of one event	21:33
RST38h	Khertan: To denote such a long event, you use a certain color to start it on monday and finish it some time on friday	21:33
RST38h	And let the user drag those boundaries with his finger	21:33
Khertan_n810	hum i ll take my car ...	21:34
Khertan_n810	see you tomorrow	21:34
Khertan_n810	and thx for idea	21:34
lcuk	Khertan_n810, have a nice evening	21:34
RST38h	bye	21:36
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lcuk	RST38h, have you ever been just dropping off to sleep and had such cool idea that you knew you had to open eyes again and write it down	21:38
RST38h	lcuk: I have	21:40
RST38h	lcuk: Always went back to sleep though =)	21:40
lcuk	heh, well i had one of the moments last night	21:40
RST38h	did you write it down?	21:40
RST38h	was it about banana being smaller than its skin?	21:40
lcuk	so i reached over for my 810, opened my eyes and slid the keyboard out and almost blinded my fscking self - i almost threw it across the room	21:40
Stskeeps	advanced backlight	21:41
Stskeeps	:P	21:41
RST38h	yep. advanced blacklight it is.	21:41
lcuk	normally i leave it on minimum (thx to abl)	21:41
lcuk	and in liqbase cos its dark	21:41
lcuk	but this time it was on max and brightwhite	21:41
Stskeeps	like the flash of a thousand suns	21:41
lcuk	yeah sts	21:42
lcuk	have you seen the flash that liqbase does when you take a photo?	21:42
Stskeeps	nop	21:42
RST38h	Does Nokia use LEDs or the traditional backlight?	21:42
lcuk	heh, its very useful, people know the pic was took and carry on moving again	21:42
lcuk	i dunno rst, it was too bright last night	21:43
lcuk	i want my nokia to know and respect what time it is and the fact i put it to sleep	21:43
lcuk	and it should never wake me up like that again	21:43
RST38h	lcuk: it should also talk back to you!	21:43
ShadowJK_	if advanced backlight only supported using the light sensor :(	21:43
lcuk	my sensor is covered over all the time	21:44
RST38h	lcuk: More importantly though, do you still remember what that idea was?	21:44
lcuk	yes actually :)	21:44
lcuk	N1 (original) is the lower one with the sticker http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG	21:44
lcuk	rst, yes i needed to make a note of it for that very reason	21:45
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penguinbait	are we having fun yet?	21:49
lcuk	is wd40 safe to clean the screen with?	21:49
lcuk	i am always having fun	21:49
l7	wd40??	21:49
lcuk	apart from when im not	21:49
lcuk	yes l7, cleansing and lubricating	21:50
*** vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes		21:50
penguinbait	always?	21:50
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RST38h	NO	21:50
lcuk	ok pb, not always before this year i spent a couple of years moping about (mainly linked to .net) but now i have my mojo	21:51
penguinbait	its nice to find your mojo :)	21:51
RST38h	you can just as well use olive oil to clean your screen =)	21:51
penguinbait	just give it a good lick	21:51
lcuk	not the base though	21:52
penguinbait	thats what she said!	21:52
lcuk	heh	21:52
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l7	hrm, does the n800 care which distro created a .swap file?	21:53
penguinbait	swap formatting is all the same	21:53
qwerty12_N800	shouldn't do, a swap file is blank	21:54
l7	i have a .swap file on my internal SD card from my last install and i wonder if i should erase it and start over	21:54
penguinbait	so no, I would think not	21:54
l7	oh	21:54
lcuk	pb, this year ive gotten to do what ive been trying to do for years :)	21:54
l7	well that saves me some trouble	21:54
BULLE_	l7: i doubt they changed the swap fileformat, and if so, swapon should complain	21:54
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, eradicate your northen accent!?!	21:54
qwerty12_N800	+r	21:55
l7	BULLE_: yeah, no complaints, it just picks it up and uses it if it's there i guess	21:55
lcuk	that happens everytime i stop talking surprisingly	21:55
penguinbait	Its nice what you can work on things people appreciate	21:55
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qwerty12_N800	lcuk, lol, i'm just messing around. if i'm too hyped and my speech reflects that, my northern accent comes out too :p	21:56
lcuk	:)	21:56
l7	hrm, swapspace says "?SWAPSPACE2" when i do head or tail of it	21:56
lcuk	ive sussed things anyway, and when my next video comes out ill be talkin from the kitchen - i can speak without wakin tracy up	21:56
penguinbait	whats up qwerty, do you get your drivers license this year? Now that your 16?	21:57
l7	is it possible to take a look at what's written in swap?	21:57
qwerty12_N800	hey pb, I can only get when i'm 17 :( but i can apply for one now	21:58
penguinbait	Is that the law? 17?	21:58
penguinbait	you can get learner permit in US at 15	21:58
qwerty12_N800	95% sure it is :(	21:58
qwerty12_N800	well, i can apply for a licence to drive a moped at 16 :D	22:00
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penguinbait	I Picture a tricked out moped with n800 mounted in front	22:03
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* Mousey huggles his new working tablet		22:15
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* Mousey huggles tablet		22:15
tablet	Mousey, oi, stop touching me	22:15
* Mousey fondles tablet		22:15
* Mousey touches tablet liberally		22:16
Mousey	^_^	22:16
tablet	lol	22:16
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Mousey	upgrading from singtel firmware -> diablo went without a problem, turns out i'm an illiterate dummy, who can't read documentation and missed a VITAL SWITCH	22:16
* RST38h does not understand what Mousey is talking about		22:17
RST38h	Singtel firmware? Vital switches? Have you tried sonic screwdriver?	22:17
Mousey	for those that missed it, here's the wallpaper from the singtel firmware.. (many people weren't impressed).. http://ross154.net/~mprov/singtel_background.png	22:17
qwerty12_N800	lul, wtf	22:18
Mousey	it was an adventure	22:18
Mousey	i got it back from palco with a singtel firmware	22:19
Mousey	then, because i'm a dumbass, i couldn't upgrade it to diablo	22:19
lcuk	thats classy	22:19
Mousey	thot i had a problem	22:19
* lcuk throws up in his mouth a little		22:19
Mousey	but no, i'm just a tard	22:19
lcuk	are you waiting for someone to disagree? :P	22:20
Mousey	i installed liqbase!	22:20
Mousey	but then i don't get it	22:20
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lcuk	\o/ w000t, you aren't a tard :D	22:20
Mousey	lcuk: no no, i KNOW i'm a dummy =)	22:20
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lcuk	what do you mean you dont get it	22:21
Mousey	well i played with it for all of 3 minutes	22:21
Mousey	oh, i did notice the resolution was different	22:21
Mousey	640x640. that was neat, i changed it	22:22
Mousey	i guess this means it runs on other things	22:22
penguinbait	anyone got any idea whats happening to this? I have a script that converts some spanish characters and it works in ssh on maemo but not in xterm. If I pass público it will convert to p'ublico in ssh in xterm it comes out as p blico	22:22
lcuk	no, but it shows that resolution doesn't matter :)	22:22
Mousey	that's about as far as i got	22:22
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Mousey	oh, speaking of remapping things, i was messing around in /usr/share/X11/xkb/nokia_vdr/rx-44, tryna remap the sterling to a \| but i forgot what the keyword for \| is =(	22:23
lcuk	its just an easy way to get info into the device and review it again	22:23
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Mousey	lcuk: like a notebook? like xournal but cooler?	22:24
Mousey	like famous formulas that start out on napkins?	22:25
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lcuk	heh, yes	22:25
Mousey	i thought \| was Bar, but my tablet tells me i'm WRONG	22:25
lcuk	i have a very bad memory	22:25
Mousey	Tab is Tab tho	22:25
lcuk	i have to write things down to remember them	22:26
lcuk	but i got so sick of turning the page and they were gone	22:26
lcuk	now they arent :) and i can start to puull them together (carefully of course) and make use of them	22:27
lcuk	if that use expands to taking a picture and writing an instant postcard to someone (with a nice new camera from nokia) then WOW!	22:27
Mousey	lcuk: ok, that's cool, i'll try using it for that, cuz i use xournal like that all the time	22:27
lcuk	if its like writing on the back of a polaroid	22:28
penguinbait	seriuosly, I put "público" in a file, if I am in ssh and cat the file I see "público" if I go to xterm and cat same file I see "p blico"	22:28
penguinbait	wtf?	22:28
lcuk	font?	22:28
qwerty12_N800	penguinbait, remove the l!	22:28
lcuk	or just extended 8bit	22:28
* Mousey votes font		22:29
Mousey	cd p?blico	22:29
penguinbait	l! ??	22:30
qwerty12_N800	yer, púbico	22:30
lcuk	-1 qwerty - thats double minus lame	22:31
lcuk	:P	22:31
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, it's a southern thing, you wouldn't understand :p	22:31
penguinbait	I am a tad slow today :)	22:31
lcuk	is it cheating by the way if i make a twitter clone but simply post my irc lines?	22:32
qwerty12_N800	penguinbait, i'm using lucida console as my font in osso-xterm and i see ú fine after running cat	22:32
* lcuk whistles quietly		22:33
penguinbait	I changed mine to lucida console and it still fails	22:34
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, kinda my fault for making it go in /usr/share/fonts :p. nice font though, thanks for the pointer via liqbase :p	22:34
lcuk	bbl	22:34
lcuk	lol	22:34
qwerty12_N800	penguinbait, what's your encoding setting in osso-xterm?	22:34
lcuk	cya later	22:34
qwerty12_N800	bye lcuk for now	22:34
penguinbait	unicode	22:35
Mousey	none of this multicode stuff!	22:35
Mousey	all characters ONE SINGLE CODE!	22:35
qwerty12_N800	penguinbait, same here though i'm using bash as my shell	22:35
penguinbait	hmmm?	22:35
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qwerty12_N800	zap put bash3 in extras. dunno if that is a reason i'm seeing the ú though	22:36
penguinbait	if I change my encoding to latin it works?	22:36
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GeneralAkbar	IT'S A BUG!	22:37
*** GeneralAkbar is now known as Mousey		22:37
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penguinbait	FYI qwerty, its not bash	22:41
woglinde	hi	22:42
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penguinbait	hi!	22:42
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qwerty12_N800	penguinbait, then it's your tablet of course!	22:47
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BugBlue	where to get kismet for maemo?	23:00
BugBlue	it seems that it disappeared	23:00
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RST38h	...recent expansion of authority claimed by the Border Patrol to stop and search individuals up to 100 miles from any US border...	23:02
RST38h	Wonderful	23:02
woglinde	hehe	23:03
RST38h	This should obviously be extended to the whole territory and they should get rights to confiscate property as well	23:03
woglinde	I know why I wouldnt travel there	23:03
* RST38h is pretty sure .DE has got some amusing laws on its own though		23:03
woglinde	not yet	23:04
woglinde	or be sure you are not islamistic	23:04
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woglinde	traveling by airplane is now out of sign too, with the naked scanners	23:05
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RST38h	Air travel has become pretty outlandish now, but I really want to see the whole thing	23:09
Mousey	i need a commodore emulator!	23:10
Mousey	http://www.bardstaleonline.com/BT1/Downloads.asp	23:10
RST38h	Random strip searches at the streets. Equipment confiscations. Incarceration for copyright violations. Cute street advertisements for DHS (as in "Beware: Your Family May Be Harboring A Terrorist Right Now!")	23:11
woglinde	hm yes we had another strange story here	23:12
RST38h	Half the kitchen aisle in department stores should also be fenced off, with all the "sensitive" chemicals (such as baking soda) sold by buyer's ID only	23:12
woglinde	islamistic terrorist are using child porn picture for communication	23:12
BugBlue	time to build a buildmachine	23:12
RST38h	woglinde: + they can wank at it! =)	23:12
BugBlue	is there a virtual machine image I can leech to boot up and just crosscompile applications?	23:13
BugBlue	or do I have to build it myself like everyone else?	23:13
woglinde	bugblue hm yes	23:13
RST38h	It is called Maemo SDK	23:13
woglinde	but dont ask me where	23:13
mariorz	are there any docs on maybe doing some firmware hacking so that the Hildon UI is never loaded and load some custom app instead?	23:13
qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/	23:13
RST38h	http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/	23:13
*** vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes		23:14
BugBlue	ha nice!	23:14
BugBlue	thanks!	23:14
RST38h	mariorz: boot manager	23:14
woglinde	firmware hacking sigh	23:14
qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, you'll be glad to know kismet svn has driver for n800 wifi chip. not brilliant by any standards but i was able to run for 24h...	23:14
RST38h	bootmenu.garage.maemo.org	23:15
BugBlue	qwerty12_N800: I know it does have.. I did run kismet on my n810 for a while... until I updated	23:15
mariorz	cool, thanks eveyrone	23:15
woglinde	qwerty12 it will be better in the future with the new opensource driver	23:15
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qwerty12_N800	BugBlue, same here :D but i got my build of aircrack-ng back :)	23:15
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, yeah :)	23:16
BugBlue	qwerty12_N800: where did you get it?	23:16
BugBlue	ah you're own build	23:16
woglinde	some one knows how to use a htc blue angel as inet modem with the n810?	23:16
qwerty12_N800	qwerty12_N800, i uploaded it on itt :)	23:16
woglinde	bluetooth pairing works	23:17
BugBlue	woglinde: bluetooth pan?	23:17
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, bluetooth-pan	23:17
woglinde	yes	23:17
woglinde	but I tried	23:17
woglinde	but it shows nothing	23:17
BugBlue	argh.. there is no vmware player for mac os X	23:17
woglinde	I installed maemo-pan	23:17
woglinde	but what I have to configure than?	23:17
BugBlue	time for virtualbox	23:17
BugBlue	1 clic download and I didn't have to sell my soul	23:18
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, can you add it as a phone with the phone control panel applet?	23:18
MangoFusion	vmware fusion... well worth the money imo	23:18
woglinde	qwerty12 nope	23:18
MangoFusion	virtualbox isn't that bad though	23:18
woglinde	qwerty12 otherwise I would not ask	23:18
BugBlue	virtualbox works on my linux workstation	23:19
BugBlue	if it doesn't work I convert it to xen and run it somewhere on the internet :P	23:19
BugBlue	[I do like linux]	23:19
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, hmm, brb	23:20
woglinde	hm I will look up how bt-pan is working	23:21
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=191297	23:21
woglinde	thanks	23:22
BugBlue	bt-pan created some sort of wireless network ... you just join the network and the phone is your router [that's the theory, practice will differ with every implementation ofcourse]	23:22
woglinde	hm qwerty whats this configeditor that is shown there?	23:23
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woglinde	hm ah	23:23
woglinde	problem is pda detection	23:23
qwerty12_N800	woglinde, gconf-editor. ed bartosh's work but only for chinook so i sent it to diablo extras-devel	23:24
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woglinde	bt suckz	23:24
woglinde	with all this protocols around	23:24
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