IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2008-09-25

moontigeri think it looks awesome00:00
moontigeris that a deblet?00:00
johnxmoontiger, yup00:00
KotCzarnyjohnx, but don't mind me, i'm kidding a little00:00
johnxI've been doing some fine tuning00:00
johnxKotCzarny, I figured :P00:00
johnxyeah, lxde00:00
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johnxcan't decide if I like the panel to the right or left00:00
moontigeris the install for that clean and non-destructive?00:00
johnxdeblet? or my couple little hacks?00:02
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lakinI have a nokia n810 (which runs OS2008, 2.2007.51-3), and I'm trying to track down the SDK python version ... basically, i'm trying to use python code that depends on the compile module.  Accoring to that module is included only in the SDK. Is this the right place to ask about that?00:06
johnxlakin, sure00:07
johnxif it's in the sdk, then it's probably in one of the repos here:
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lakinjohnx: thanks00:11
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lmouralakin, try the package python2.5-dev00:16
lakinlmoura, i'm trying to install it on the device, can I just use apt-get from the terminal?00:16
lmouralakin, if the extras repo is enable, I think so00:17
lakinhrrm, don't have the appropriate permissions, guess I need to find out how to gain those permissions00:18
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infobot[rootsh] an easy way to get root and it's found here:
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Pavlovhey, we're seeing some /var/tmp files created for mmaps -- anyone know what they are?00:32
Pavlovanonymous mmaps00:33
lakinthanks GAN80000:33
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lakinhrmm, python2.5-dev is already installed00:41
lakinbut still no compile module00:41
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mikkov_lakin: what is the exact name of the module you are looking for?00:50
lakinlet me double check that00:51
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mikkov_there is codeop, py_compile and compileall modules in python library reference, but no compile00:52
mikkov_Compile class exists in codeop module00:53
lakinyeah, I'm double checking00:53
mikkov_ah, compiler package exists00:54
lakinyeah, that's probably it.00:54
lakinyep, it's called compiler00:55
lakinbloody hell, compiler is installed00:55
lakinit must have been installed when I installed the maemo-python-dev-env or some such package, I forget its exact name, but I was testing it by importing the wrong module.  Thanks!00:56
lakinmikkov_: thanks for helping me get my head out of the clouds00:56
mikkov_no problem ;)00:57
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svuanyone managed to install new canola?01:33
svuit wants new canolad01:34
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Navisvu, beta10?01:49
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svuNavi, yes01:55
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mdgI finally got hackeros 2007 to flash on my 770!  Yay!  I'm looking for which program can run like a large clock04:02
* KotCzarny misread it as 'large cock'04:03
mdga full screen clock04:03
* Dsnye hits clear screen to no avail...04:04
KotCzarnyas for clock, hmm04:04
KotCzarnyanyone ported xscreen saver to maemo?04:04
mdgwill hackeros 2008 give me flash on my 770?04:05
mdganyone have a collection of background pictures for the tablet PCs?04:06
KotCzarnyi guess any bg will do04:07
KotCzarnywallpaper app can crop/fit automatically04:07
mdgwhat's the best size for a background?04:07
mdganyone here have a 770 with hackeros 2008 on it?04:08
KotCzarnyyes, but not me04:09
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mdgBesides, obviously, the camera and FM tuner functions, do programs work on the 770?04:09
KotCzarnyprobably not04:10
KotCzarnyunless hw is included on 77004:10
KotCzarnybut correct me if i'm wrong04:10
KotCzarnyhw == hardware04:10
mdgso there is no flash for 770 in any os?04:11
KotCzarnydon't know04:11
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KotCzarnymy guess it's not compiled for 770's cpu04:11
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mdgoh.  Well, at least I can download videos to my MMC and then watch04:12
mdgWas hoping there was a way to listen to internet radio from my local station - its clear channel and I can't get it on my linux machine04:13
KotCzarnyinternet radio != fm radio04:13
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mdgbut it does not have my local station - a Clear Channel station04:14
KotCzarnydo they have wma/mp3/ogg stream?04:14
mdgI've been unable to determine what - the link to the stream is buried - you have to launch their player in a window04:14
KotCzarnyrun through proxy and log the urls04:15
mdgthat's a linux program?04:15
mdgif/when I find the right url, can it be added to fm player?04:16
KotCzarnyfm not, regular media player, maybe04:16
KotCzarnyfm means hardware decoding04:16
KotCzarnywithout internet04:17
mdgoh, okay04:17
mdgI'm going to check out Proxy-server Thanks!!!04:17
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mdgthat proxy stuff is overwhelming!04:20
KotCzarnyeducatiom is good for you04:20
KotCzarnyyou will know how internet works04:21
mdgwhich kind do I want?04:21
KotCzarnyany that can allow you to sniff what addresses your browser is using04:21
mdgis there one for the 770?04:21
KotCzarnydo it on pc04:21
KotCzarnyto find out your radio stream link04:21
mdgdo you have a favorite one?04:22
mdgis it easy to use?04:22
KotCzarnyfor me? yes04:22
mdgmy pc is running Mint Daryna04:22
mdgI would look for proxy servers?04:23
KotCzarnywhat's the radio link04:25
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gregoroviuswell, I disabled a bunch of stuff and battery life seems to be back to normal, so it's not hardware-related04:34
gregoroviusnow, it can be omweather, the statusbar cpu monitor, openntpd, or the fm applet04:34
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mdgI'm stumped04:38
KotCzarnythat site is stupid04:38
gregoroviuswhat site?04:38
mdgClear Channel made it really hard to use anything other than windows/IE04:38
KotCzarnythe radio one he tries to tune in04:39
NaviKotCzarny, you're stupid.04:39
mdggregorovius, a local internet radio station04:39
KotCzarnynavi == troll04:39
gregoroviusyeah, I realize04:39
NaviKotCzarny, that returns 004:39
gregoroviusa troll with logic!04:39
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mdgI haven't been able to listen to that station since they changed the "player" their network stream launches04:40
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gregoroviuswhat's the url?04:40
KotCzarnythey should let people to choose the player, or at least provide link to the stream04:41
mdgI agree!04:41
KotCzarnychecking for some obscure firefox extension and removing everything from the page isn't nice04:41
KotCzarnybut i guess they need to show ads04:41
mdgYeah, without the ads they can't pay for the streaming internet04:42
mdgits not a very big station or a very big market04:42
gregoroviusI can't even try to listen to that radio, it's US-only04:42
KotCzarnyand they apparently lost another listener04:42
mdgnot me - love that station!  Somehow I will figure it out04:43
gregoroviusif you got 5 minutes, write them and tell em your experience04:43
KotCzarnythey need mplayer plugin04:43
KotCzarnyand mplayer04:43
KotCzarnyso you can probably do without flash04:43
mdgYeah, I tried to compile the little plug-in for mplayer and it just won't work for me.  I've been waiting for mplayer to incorporate it in their next update04:44
KotCzarnyassuming someone ported mozplayer or something04:44
mdgUsing windows is so ANNOYING!04:44
mdgeean, I do as much as I can on my Linux Mint machine04:45
mdgI'v learned a lot tonight!  Thanks for everyones' input04:47
mdgmy little 770 is a fun little entertainment!04:48
mdgnight all!04:49
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eeanare there any packages for the latest OS2008 out in the Internet somewhere?04:53
infobotwell, extras is
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eeanit didn't have a wesnoth for the latest os2008 last I looked04:56
Mekextras-devel than perhaps?04:57
eeanthats not for devel packages?04:57
GeneralAntillesBadger the maintainer04:57
GeneralAntillesthen grab it from Chinook Extras04:57
eeanbefore I upgraded os2008 wesnoth was there04:57
eeanwhat am I running/04:59
gregoroviusanybody knows the speed/class of the 128mb card that comes with the n800?04:59
GeneralAntillesgregorovius, probably not good. ;)04:59
eeanah, but I could get it from chinook fine probably04:59
gregoroviusI thought I'd put it in the internal slot to use as swap, and put my 8gb card on the 'external' slot, but it seems to be much slower creating the swap file04:59
GeneralAntillesI'd just pick up a decent 4GB card.05:00
GeneralAntillesor another 8GB card05:00
GeneralAntillesthey're cheap these days.05:00
gregoroviusnot down here, sadly05:01
gregoroviusU$S50 for a class 6 8gb05:02
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gregoroviusand salaries ain't in U$S :)05:02
eeangregorovius: your the kde translator05:03
eeanwe see your inspiring name from CIA whenever you make a commit in #amarok05:03
eeanunless I'm mistaken :)05:03
gregoroviusnot at all05:03
gregoroviusI'm in #amarok, but I haven't translated a single word in my life05:04
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eeanah, so I am05:04
gregoroviustoo bad =P05:04
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* eean installs wesnoth05:05
Dsnyenight all!05:05
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* KotCzarny installs pancakes05:09
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lcukliqbase request:
KotCzarnyis it the first release?05:40
lcuki think here is a good place to draw a line :)05:40
lcukim off to bed though, gnite05:41
KotCzarnynite nite05:41
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eeanbah how am I ever going to find the space to install wesnoth :D05:48
KotCzarnyclone to sd05:48
infobotfrom memory, boot-sd is
eeanI tried just having a symlink to /media/mmc205:48
eeanbut its vfat and it didn't like its permissionlessness05:49
NaviGeneralAntilles, look at teh link05:49
GeneralAntillesNavi, you be crazy.05:49
NaviGeneralAntilles, I am totally not crazy.05:49
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KotCzarnyeean, you can link from ext*/jffs2 to vfat05:49
NaviAnyone want to run percentages on ":)" usages?05:50
KotCzarnyother way round not, but this way yes05:50
eeanKotCzarny: yea I did, but wesnoth-data needs to change the permissions of a font directory or something05:50
eeanand it aborts when it can't05:50
KotCzarnybug the author of the port :)05:50
KotCzarnyand i think there were versions for data on mmc*05:50
eeanwell they aren't in the repo05:53
eeanis there even a process to bug the author of a package or just cyberstalking?05:53
GeneralAntillesJust email them.05:53
GeneralAntillesMaintainer if is in the package.05:54
KotCzarnyyou can try mounting vfat with quiet option05:54
KotCzarnymount -o remount,quiet /media/mmc205:54
KotCzarny(or 1)05:54
KotCzarnyit shouldn't report errors about chmod/chown then05:54
eeanhey cool :)05:54
eeanthat sounds easy05:54
lcukkot, do you fancy grabbin a 75mb from my ftp and finding a host online for it - youtube is bein crap05:54
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KotCzarnylcuk, temporary host ?05:55
KotCzarnyor rapidshare etc?05:55
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lcuki dunno, i can barely work youtube :D05:55
lcuksomewhere just to put it on the thread05:56
lcukarghhh im already way late, ill leave it, gnite05:56
KotCzarnyit's on ftp?05:56
eeanKotCzarny: I still get operation not permitted :/05:56
KotCzarnyeean, remounted proper partition?05:57
KotCzarnyother options could be exec05:57
KotCzarnymaybe it tries to put execs there too05:57
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KotCzarnyk, i'll see what i can do05:58
lcukthx :)05:58
eeanit sounds like quiet should work based on the mount man page05:58
KotCzarnyi'll post the link on itt too05:58
eeantrying now with exec05:58
eeanguess it won't work, the specific error is "error setting ownership"05:59
KotCzarnyunless it's trying to make symlinks/hardlinks05:59
eeannow it says no space left on device...05:59
eeanthats good I guess :)05:59
eeancan you replace the internal flash card?06:00
KotCzarnyin n800?06:00
KotCzarnyin n810 it's soldered06:00
eeann810, yea. good.06:00
eeanah damn06:00
eeanwas planning on buying two 8gb flash cards06:00
KotCzarnythat's what you get for getting n810 instead of n800!06:00
eeansheesh there's 441 megs available on /media/mmc206:02
eeanseems like that'd be enough06:02
eeanok that error was a fluke06:03
eeanback to the ownership issue thing06:03
KotCzarnyanother trick would be creating big file, ext2/3 on it and mounting via loop06:04
eeanwell I could just format it as ext3 if I want to go through that trouble06:04
KotCzarnyor simply reformat/repartition internal sd in your n81006:05
eeanI don't need vfat for anything do I?06:05
eeanI understand vfat is more efficient for small parititions though06:05
KotCzarnyis it?06:05
eeanit'd make sense06:05
KotCzarnyit's simple06:05
eeanvfat is old and not error tolerant :)06:05
KotCzarnyand stupid a little06:06
Kegetysthe only reason for it is that you can use the device as usb mass storage06:06
eeanI use linux mostly though06:06
KotCzarnykegetys: with windows06:06
KotCzarnyyou wanted to add06:06
KegetysKotCzarny: and various other devices that only support fat06:06
eeanwell this is my completely-not-removable-since-its-a-810 flash :)06:06
Kegetysit is usable as mass storage with the usb cable that comes with the device06:07
KotCzarnyanyone had internal sd failed in n810?06:07
eeanKegetys: it'd still be usable with an ext3 though right?06:07
Kegetyseean: I guess it should, assuming what you'd use it with supports ext306:08
KotCzarnyeean, it's the same situation as formatting usb stick with ext2/306:08
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KotCzarnythere is ifs driver for ext2/3 for windows06:09
KotCzarnywhich pretty much works as expected06:09
KotCzarnythat wesnoth looks interesting06:10
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eeanyea wesnoth is awesome06:13
derfIt's _really_ slow, though.06:18
GeneralAntillesA lot better with swap on.06:20
derfI can't even run it with swap off.06:21
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Navigoing from the desktop wesnoth to on the tablet is really painful06:28
Naviit's slow; that's all there is to it.06:28
KotCzarnyIt's sweeping the country with spinner rims! Is it coming towards you? Darius Goes West. Know about it.06:30
KotCzarnyi wonder if it's the same Darius06:31
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jeff2Forgive me if I am barging in, using a web based this particular web based IRC chat client for the first time07:18
jeff2and not sure if its showing me everything...07:18
jeff2Is there an existing maemo chat going on right now?07:19
johnxnothing formal07:19
johnxwe just kind of sit here and talk back and forth, usually about maemo, sometimes about other stuff07:19
johnxit's pretty quiet right now though07:20
johnxhave a question?07:20
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jeff2cool, yes I do07:20
qnr-ltwell, I'm talking to myself about Maemo, but that doesn't really count as far as IRC goes07:20
jeff2I'm running Diablo on a n810 and seem to have lost access to /dev/camera007:20
jeff2and all camera functionality07:20
KotCzarnyi think webchat should include some dislaimer07:20
jeff2Camera 3.5, gps camera and aMSN07:21
jeff2any thoughts?07:21
KotCzarnyjeff2: check dmesg?07:21
sneakretjeff2: It's busted.07:21
KotCzarnyany error messages?07:21
johnxjeff2, hmm...I've heard of that problem. There's a thread on ITT ( but I don't know if there was a resolution07:21
sneakret<- helper07:21
jeff2nope, checked in /var/log07:21
KotCzarnyi think /var/log is not used07:22
KotCzarnyto save space etc07:22
jeff2nothing there, didn't see anything else shouting put at me, but have'nt tracked down any other logs yet07:22
jeff2did a grep on "camera" from /07:22
KotCzarnyyou may try using mencoder or vlc07:22
KotCzarnyto test camera functionality07:22
jeff2but nothing showed up after 5-10 minutes before I killed it (I was looking for other logs)07:22
KotCzarnyare you proficient with shell ?07:22
sneakretmencoder can pull from the camera?07:22
KotCzarnysneakret: wanna cmdline i use?07:23
sneakretI bet jeff2 does too. ;)07:23
KotCzarnyjust a moment07:23
KotCzarnyi have to find the script07:23
jeff2no resolution on the iit forum yet07:24
KotCzarnyquick and dirty but worked for me around spring07:25
KotCzarnyif default mencoder isn't compiled with tv:// you may get my build07:25
KotCzarnyfrom binaries07:25
KotCzarnyon the same site07:25
KotCzarnyor just compile mplayer/mencoder yourself enabling it07:26
KotCzarnyjeff2: can it be some hung app blocking /dev/video0 ?07:27
jeff2 /dev/video0 was missing07:28
KotCzarnysomething removed it?07:28
jeff2i remade it using an simular ubuntu command07:28
jeff2but that was a bit of cut and paste/pray magic07:28
KotCzarnyyeah, device nodes are the same07:29
KotCzarnybecause it's quite standard linux distro07:29
KotCzarnyto be exact07:29
jeff2i assumed07:29
KotCzarnyyou may recompile kernel07:29
KotCzarnyto enable v4l1 compaibility07:29
KotCzarnyalthough last time i tried only mencoder/mplayer was able to use it07:30
KotCzarnyfrom stock linux apps07:30
johnxso, interesting thought: I'm on an n800 and I still have my /dev/video0 device07:31
johnxjeff2, did it ever work for you under diablo?07:31
jeff2not 100% sure07:31
jeff2i think so though07:31
jeff2I might end up reflashing07:31
KotCzarnytry to find the cause07:31
jeff2if it's nothing that people have an easy answer to07:31
johnxjeff2, people on itt tried reflashing it seems07:32
jeff2there was the comment on itt forums 2 other folks with seem problem07:32
jeff2i added to it last night07:32
jeff2no answers for them07:32
KotCzarnymaybe device node got renamed?07:32
KotCzarnyls -l /dev/vid* ?07:32
jeff2i did install in red pill mode amsn07:32
johnxKotCzarny, nope. works for some people07:32
johnxKotCzarny, and the apps all look for /dev/video007:32
jeff2but that was the only weird thing I've done on the tablet since reflashing diablo07:33
jeff2everything else was stock / from standard repos07:33
KotCzarnystandard repos can do stupid things too07:33
johnxjeff2, dmesg | grep omap24xxcam07:33
KotCzarnyif some dev package slips in07:33
johnxjeff2, are you using the official diablo kernel?07:34
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jeff2no omap in dmesg output07:35
sneakretWhoa. I don't have mencoder installed. That's surprising.07:35
KotCzarnybecause it's not compiled by default07:36
KotCzarnyi did my own compile from the ssvb's sources07:37
KotCzarnyfixing camera.c in one or two places07:37
KotCzarnytrivial fix07:37
sneakretFor what it's worth, my n810's camera works in Diablo.07:38
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jeff2thanks (I'm assume it does for most folks)07:38
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sneakretFor some reason I expected mencoder to be included with mplayer. Silly me.07:38
jeff2I think mine broke07:38
sneakretMy GPS still can't get a fix though.07:38
sneakretSo far the GPS has been completely useless for me.07:39
KotCzarnysneakret: tried from the roof?07:39
KotCzarnyat least you will know it's not doa07:39
jeff2i can get it outside, but not inside for the most part, tried on a bus last weekend07:39
jeff2first time no lock for 2 hours07:40
sneakretOh. Well, I've managed to get it to work a couple times.07:40
jeff22nd time, lock in 10 minutes, even with agps primed07:40
sneakretbut yeah... it takes ages.07:40
RST38hMaybe you selected wrong location in agps?07:40
sneakretI usually just try from the control panel.07:41
jeff2okay, we thanks everyone, I think its time to reflash07:41
johnxjeff2, update the thread if that fixes it :)07:42
jeff2I appreaciae your help.07:42
jeff2will do07:42
sneakretjeff2: Good luck!07:42
johnxand come back here if it doesn't :)07:42
jeff2thanks, I'll be back, good speaking with you all07:42
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sneakretRST38h: Installed agps-ui. That helped immensely. Thanks.07:52
sneakretKotCzarny: so... yeah, I'm interested in your mencoder binary.07:55
KotCzarnyas i said, it's in binaries/ subdir07:55
sneakretOh, I missed that. Thanks!07:55
KotCzarnyalso, that mplayer there has also tv:// enabled07:56
KotCzarnyeasier for testing camera07:56
KotCzarnyor just making n8x0 a mirror07:56
sneakretCool. :)07:59
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mdgI'm stuck trying to install osso xerm on 770 running hackeros200708:08
mdgI keep getting operation failed08:09
mdganyone got any idea why?08:11
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mdgMaybe Ijust need to give it a rest tonight.08:13
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sneakretIs there an easy way to make MicroB open URLs in a new window when using bookmarks or mis? (And has anyone made an "Open URL" mis tool?)08:21
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KotCzarnymiddle click?08:21
KotCzarny(just kidding)08:21
KotCzarnydon't know, shift-click ?08:22
sneakretI want that as the default behavior.08:23
sneakretIt sucks when I have a web page open and opening a bookmark or performing a search browses away from it.08:23
sneakretI looked through about:config and didn't see anything promising.08:24
sneakret(also, it seemed to be read-only)08:24
GAN800No way to do it as of right now08:24
KotCzarnywell, there is source of microb?08:25
GAN800part of the reasoning is that having more than a few browser windows open at a time is a real RAM killer with only 128MB to work with.08:25
sneakretYeah. Swap helps...08:25
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GAN800If you swap too much, you end up in basically the same non-responsive state as oom.08:26
sneakretDoes WebKit look promising?08:26
sneakretGAN800: True, but if you have idle browsers, they swap out nicely.08:26
GAN800Not anytime soon08:26
sneakretWhat about opening a URL from mis? :)08:26
GAN800MicroB's still on the old Gecko alpha08:26
GAN800So it'll improve a _lot_ in resource usage as its brought up to speed with trunk.08:27
GAN800Though it may be a while before the most recent round of js improvemens make it to ARM.08:28
Pavlovtracemonkey is running on ARM now08:28
Pavlovwe're seeing a bit ovre a 2x speedup08:28
GAN800Oh? That's good to know.08:29
Pavlovbut tons of work is going on now that should make that way faster08:29
sneakretThat should make gmail usable.08:29
KotCzarnyi think main speedup would come from reducing memory usage08:29
GAN800Now we just need it in MicroB.08:29
sneakret(in standard mode)08:29
Pavlovmemory usage is a lot better in firefox 3 than in the build they used08:30
sneakretHmm.. canola2 and libbz2-1.0 are failing to update. :(08:30
Pavlovand even better now08:30
GAN800sneakret, not all of Canola's dependencies have been uploaded yet.08:31
sneakretGAN800: Ah... okay.08:31
GAN800It's what you get for using Extras-devel. ;)08:31
sneakretAttempting to update libbz results in "Application packages missing: libbz2-1.0 (= 1.0.3-1)08:32
sneakretYeah, I have FBReader installed.08:33
GAN800sneakret, try deleting its repo?08:36
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Khertan_n810Hi !08:38
Khertan_n810does someone with  chaintool can compile for me the opensync framework ?08:39
Khertan_n810and his python binding ?08:39
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sneakretGAN800: Thanks.08:50
sneakretYou know stuff.08:51
summatusmentishe knows too much stuff08:52
Khertan_n810MarshallAntilles: why made the meeting on saturday ?08:53
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aquatixmorning all09:01
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aquatixhm, odd, if i try to update libxml2, it wants to remove osso-software-version-rx4409:02
GAN800aquatix, strict depends09:03
GAN800find o-s-v-rx44-unlocked09:03
aquatixyeah, noticed09:03
GAN800Khertan_n810, I was sleepinp. ;)09:04
Khertan_n810so good morning09:06
aquatixhm, now libxml2 wanted to install, but on dist-upgrade apt says `osso-af-startup: depends osso-af-utils (>=1.16-1) not going to be installed); osso-core-config not going to be installed'09:06
aquatixmorning Khertan_n810, GAN800 :)09:07
GAN800Sounds bad09:07
aquatixdoes it?09:08
* aquatix has no idea what exactly those packages are09:08
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fiekiai like my nokia. i use it to chat on irc while i poop09:16
aquatixthank you for sharing that information ;)09:17
fiekiapfft at newspapers!!! this is the new mellinium09:17
* KotCzarny does that too09:17
KotCzarny+ i play games while there09:17
KotCzarnygood stuff09:17
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* aquatix generally browses news, reads mail or a book09:18
* Proteous reminds himself to never handle fiekia's or KotCzarny's nokia09:18
KotCzarnyi shall put that info on the case09:19
KotCzarnyit will keep it safe from 'borrowers' :>09:19
fiekiagoing to set my wallpaper to "i poop with this"09:19
KotCzarnyi used to use some chinese tetris game09:19
KotCzarnybut once i tried nokia while pooping09:20
aquatixwtf, i already have osso-af-utils 1.17-109:20
KotCzarnyi won't go back09:20
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sneakretgan800: got a blog?09:20
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aquatixhm, with tetris i would sit there for hours09:20
GAN800sneakret, ;)09:21
KotCzarnyespecially that i'm very good at it09:21
fiekiaaquatix, i had tetris on my old phone09:21
aquatixKotCzarny: install tetris on your NIT09:21
KotCzarny nah09:21
fiekiait was awesome09:21
KotCzarnycontrols are flunky09:21
KotCzarnyfor high speed game09:21
aquatixhm, true09:21
KotCzarnybut my n-gage plays it just right09:21
aquatixmake a usb controller09:21
KotCzarnynokia internet tablet09:22
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KotCzarnyget used to it09:22
sneakretever played touchtris? (it's called something else now, for trademark reasons)09:22
jaskasounds perverted09:22
KotCzarnyi'm hard player09:22
KotCzarnyi'm afraid i would ruin the screen09:22
sneakretthat's a great touchscreen Tetris09:22
sneakretno NIT version though09:24
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sneakretyou rotate the pieces by dragging and relying on their inertia09:24
KotCzarnyi know09:25
KotCzarnylooks great09:25
jaskalike pinch one part and wait it to rotate around that?09:25
KotCzarnybut is it precise?09:25
KotCzarnyjaska: kind of09:25
KotCzarnyjust imagine dragging real blocks09:25
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KotCzarnyon the ice09:25
aquatixah, touchbricks it's called now09:25
sneakretyeah, that's it.09:26
* aquatix had blueblocks on his palm09:26
aquatixcould play against an other palm over bluetooth09:26
sneakretnot sure what you mean by precise09:26
KotCzarnyi think i should convince lcuk to implement gravitris09:26
KotCzarnyhe is good at stuff09:26
KotCzarnysneakret: i mean doing 2-5 blocks in a second09:27
sneakretit provides pixel-level positioning, then rounds the positions..09:27
Proteouswhile wearing a tinfoil hat09:27
sneakret5 a sec is tough09:28
Proteousin a lightning storm09:28
KotCzarnytinfoil gloves09:28
KotCzarnyfor you09:28
Proteouswhile pooping09:28
KotCzarnywhile catching gps signal09:28
aquatixsmoke-generating ones09:28
Proteouson KotCzarny's toilet09:28
sneakretdefinitely not as precise as keyboard09:28
KotCzarnysneakret: yeah. then it's just a toy09:28
aquatixgenerating electricity from the bezerk button mashing09:28
* Proteous cries for a decent d-pad on his n81009:29
* Proteous also cries for a decent video chip09:29
KotCzarnybtw. anyone interested in playing multiplayer tetris on nokias/xwindows ?09:29
Proteousonly if you let me win09:29
KotCzarnyonce is enough?09:29
sneakretKotCzarny: I assume you've played netris09:29
KotCzarnysneakret: nope, xtris09:29
ProteousI like pooptris09:29
KotCzarnypooptris is better played alone09:30
aquatixthere, now only canola2 beta10 doesn't want to install yet09:30
sneakretdoes xtris give all players the same blocks?09:30
Proteous2 nokias 1 cup09:30
* aquatix leaves :)09:30
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sneakretThat's something I like about netris09:30
KotCzarnytake it like a man!09:30
aquatixnah, time for breakfast09:30
aquatixweird moment though09:30
jaemhello all09:30
KotCzarnysneakret i think yes09:30
KotCzarnybut it was long time ago09:31
aquatixtetrinet client would be interesting09:31
KotCzarny(during my uni)09:31
Proteoushowdy jaem09:31
jaemI just picked up an N810 last week, and I had a quesion about how Maemo handles the filesystem...09:31
KotCzarnybrokeback mountris09:31
sneakrettetrinet doesn't give everyone the same pieces09:31
Proteousjaem, very carefully09:32
KotCzarnyjaem: jffs2 + vfat09:32
KotCzarny+ optional ext2/309:32
sneakretit's fun, but not quite as fair09:32
jaemspecifically, I'd like to mount my internal card as /usr - I know how to do this, but I'm wondering what level of borkage could ensue09:32
KotCzarnysome people created other fs's modules09:32
KotCzarnyjaem: don't09:32
KotCzarnybetter clone to sd09:32
jaemI wondered09:32
KotCzarnywhole sys09:32
sneakretI've tried09:32
jaemokay - I'll read up on that09:32
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KotCzarnyi think it's called 'boot from sd'09:32
sneakretmounting /usr09:32
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jaemyeah, I saw that, but I haven't looked into it yet09:33
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KotCzarnysneakret: i like sending random blocks to others when completing lines in xtris09:33
KotCzarnyi'm fast09:33
KotCzarnyso they feel the pain09:33
KotCzarnyand then order of blocks doesn't matter09:33
jaemalso...  I have Gmail set up for IMAP with the built-in e-mail client, configured to download the last 200 messages only...09:34
ProteousI like recompliling the binary I give to my opponent and slightly changing it so they never get long blocks09:34
jaembut it downloads messages scattered over my whole history of using Gmail09:34
ProteousI haven't had much fun with IMAP either09:34
jaeme.g. some from every year since '04, rather than the /last/ 20009:34
aquatixthat *might* be a gmail issue09:34
jaemI'd use a different e-mail client, but I like the integration of the built-in one09:35
aquatixor do other people have that with regular imap accounts too?09:35
* aquatix should try it himself09:35
mavhchow have you configured it to dl the last 200 only?09:35
sneakretnetris puts clutter on bottom of the opponent's field when you clear rows. Clearing 1 row does nothing. Clearing 2 sends 1 row. Clearing 3 sends 2. Clearing 4 sends 4. All rows sent at once have a vertical empty slot.09:35
Proteoussuper puzzle fighter turbo 2 FTW09:36
sneakretso you can get into a mode where you're swapping 4 rows repeatedly09:36
jitu3485hi, can I  install  liblocation (location framework) on  my desktop ?09:36
jaemmavhc: it was in the config dialog - I can check where exactly, if you want09:36
KotCzarnyxtris just drops the horizontal line of 1x1 blocks09:36
KotCzarnymore if you completed more lines09:36
* jaem curses lack of wifi in his room09:36
aquatixjaem: retrieval limit in Account settings right?09:37
jaemI believe so09:37
aquatixseems to work correctly with my dovecot setup09:37
mavhcah, never saw that, I ended up archiving lots of my gmail inbox instead09:38
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jaemwell, unfortunately, I can't check right now - I somehow managed to kill my wireless router, and now I havet o go wheedle the lab tech at my uni into letting me borrow a good jtag cable :P09:38
aquatixexcept that it still loads all mail from a subfolder09:38
aquatixoh well09:38
jaemI know this has been beaten to death already (many times), but what exactly /is/ the status of the GPS time-to-initial-fix in Diablo on the N810?  I've read everything I can find, and haven't found anything conclusive... meanwhile, it still is darn slow09:39
* jaem apologizes for asking /that/ question09:40
RST38hstatus is 40 seconds with agps09:40
jaemand that requires wifi, right?09:41
jaem(and thanks for your precision)09:41
RST38hrequires at least gprs initially09:41
RST38hseems to work fine without uplink afterwards09:41
jaemand without net access of some sort, what am I looking at?  I have a friend that needs to borrow it this week, so she can add something about GPS to her resume09:42
aquatixa few minutes i guess, depening on the amount of satellites visible09:43
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jaemI appreciate the help - reading through endless forums/mailing lists is quite tedious, and often still inconclusive09:43
sneakretI have 11 satellites visible. Without installing the agps beta, GPS was badly broken.09:45
sneakretNow it seems pretty speedy.09:46
sneakretquicker than 40 seconds09:46
melmothjaem: it s _slow_.09:46
RST38h3-5 minutes without agps09:46
* jaem noticed09:46
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melmothi never manage to make any sense on how agps was suppose to be better.09:46
RST38halthough your mileage may wary09:46
melmothbut maye, this is because my tablet is not paired to any phone :)09:46
sneakretI ran agps, checked a couple boxes, and now GPS works great.09:46
sneakret(This was just tonight.)09:47
melmoth3-5 minutes without agps is when i m lucky.09:47
RST38hmelmoth: you do not need a phone, plain wifi will do09:47
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jaemI'll head out of my dorm in a bit and check it out09:47
melmothRST38h: i suppose it compare the wifi point or cell phone point against a database to try to guess where it should be located ?09:48
melmothdo you know if Paris is thus mapped ?09:48
melmothBecause this could explain why it "does not work" for me09:48
RST38hmelmoth: no.09:49
RST38hmelmoth: you manually set agps location on a map, it goes onto internet and downloads gps metadata off some web server. that is all.09:50
melmothbeen there, done that.09:50
jaemwhat sort of metadata?09:51
RST38hsure you have correctly pinpointed paris on the map?09:51
RST38hjaem: ephemerides + almanac09:51
melmothwell,the map cannot be zoomed, so i clicked on france.09:51
RST38hjaem: google for gps wiki for details09:51
* jaem goes off to read wikipedia09:51
RST38hmelmoth: i know, it sucks this way...but it does show lat lon for where you click09:52
RST38hat least finding moscow on it is pretty easy :)09:52
jaemI'll go try it out, and let you all know how it goes09:54
* jaem will be back in a bit09:54
melmothjust to be on the safe side, i re used agps while the wifi is on.. Will see what happen next time i g outside09:54
RST38hspare us - you are not even in the second dozen09:54
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ProteousI hear the 4th dozen is where it's at09:56
Proteousit's hoppin in here09:57
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tank-mandamn, sdhc prices going down every week, when to buy, when to buy?!? i see 16gb sdhc class6 for $35cad yummy10:00
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KotCzarnybuy when you need it10:00
KotCzarnythat's the rule10:00
KotCzarnyi'm waiting for 32gbs10:01
KotCzarnyto be ~50$10:01
* aquatix wants a 32GB microsd10:01
tank-manive seen 32gb but at over $20010:01
KotCzarnyi have 12gb of sd and 12gb of cf storage10:01
KotCzarnyso i'm good for some time10:01
Proteouswhich IT has a CF slot?10:02
aquatixthe zaurus10:03
KotCzarnyevery laptop with ide port10:03
* KotCzarny has a double ide-cf adapter10:03
* Proteous has a triple ide-cf adapter10:03
* Proteous connected it to his flux capacitor10:03
* aquatix has a usb card reader10:03
* Proteous travels through time10:04
aquatixah great, can you look up some stocks for me?10:04
Proteousget your own time machine!10:04
aquatixi will, after10:04
aquatixgotta make some cash first ;)10:04
mavhcsoon every computer will be flash based, hdd only for NAS10:05
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ProteousI just want an all NVRAM computer please10:06
KotCzarnybad idea10:07
Proteousmy storage will be in the cloud10:07
KotCzarnyyes, once you change the battery10:07
KotCzarnyit will be10:07
RST38hthe mushroom cloud?10:07
Proteousthe nv stands for non volitile10:07
aquatixKotCzarny: my fission reactor will act as ups10:07
Proteousmeans it doesn't need power10:07
Proteousto keep state10:08
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RST38hrelatively easy to do10:08
gomiamyay! net-split!10:08
Proteousstupid IRC tricks10:08
RST38hno, they are gone to the mushroom cloud10:08
KotCzarnyproteous: nonvolatile (* as long your battery is good)10:08
mavhcsomeone needs to invent a computer you can rewind10:08
KotCzarnyfine print my dear, fine print10:08
RST38hnv means no battery though10:08
KotCzarnymavhc: ibm did that10:09
gomiamwhen a WiFi router works with all devices but my N800 and my N800 works with all WiFi networks but that router, what may be happening?10:09
ProteousKotCzarny: no, nv mean nv10:09
KotCzarnynv means nvidia10:09
gomiam(everything points to the N800 to be gone awry)10:09
aquatixmavhc: ctrl+z or u (in vim)?10:09
mavhcdoesn't nvidia mean nvidia?10:09
KotCzarnygomiam: typo? failed dhcp ?10:09
mavhcaquatix: yes, but for the entire system10:09
KotCzarnygomiam: tried static ip?10:09
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Proteousno no, the snozeberries taste like snozeberries10:09
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gomiamKotCzarny: I'll give it a go, but it's annoying since the router serves DHCP for everything else.10:10
KotCzarnygomiam: i think dhcp is the main offender10:10
Proteousonly n00bs add extra "O"s10:10
KotCzarnywhen connecting to routers10:10
aquatixProteous: pft, n00b10:10
KotCzarnyhe has 2 o in his nick10:10
KotCzarnyand a P10:10
Proteousbut none are extra10:11
KotCzarnywhich goes after o10:11
ProteousI need both of them dearly10:11
KotCzarnyfor what?10:11
Proteousto keep your poop covered nokia away10:11
KotCzarnyi flush it, dummy10:11
KotCzarnycovering is old method10:11
KotCzarnyancient i say10:12
* Proteous doesn't want to know the details10:12
* aquatix pictures KotCzarny holding his nokia inside the toilet while flushing10:12
gomiamOh, I think I saw something. The WiFi network is a WPA-PSK but tcpdump tells me the N800 is sending EAP packets10:12
aquatixnot a pretty image10:12
KotCzarnyyou know, they say toilet is cleaner than door knobs10:12
aquatixgomiam: ah :)10:12
aquatixKotCzarny: and public keyboards10:12
Proteousluckly I don't eat off of door knobs or toilets10:13
KotCzarnypt: what about public knobs?10:13
Proteous you people are crazy10:13
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gomiamfortunately, I finally bought a Bt keyboard.10:13
KotCzarnyi'm just eccentric10:13
aquatixit's just past 9AM and this is our subject...10:13
ProteousIE crazy10:13
KotCzarny3am here10:13
Proteous12:12am here10:14
* aquatix should be coding10:14
KotCzarny3:14 am10:14
gomiam09:14 here10:14
KotCzarnyto be exact10:14
atulDoes Maemo Chinook supports Ondevice Debugging.10:14
aquatixmeeting about it in a few hours10:14
aquatixKotCzarny: ooh :)10:14
KotCzarnypeetime ?10:14
aquatixgomiam: yeah, 9:14 here too10:14
gomiamok, please excuse my ignorance: is there a reason for EAP packets to be sent when establishing a WPA-PSK WiFi session?10:16
ProteousI don't think this is a good channel to be asking that question too10:16
jaemwhile I was gone:10:16
jaemmavhc: "someone needs to invent a computer you can rewind"10:16
jaemme: they did... I have one sitting on my desk, and takes 20s to load a BASIC "Hello World" program10:16
Proteoustry /#wifi10:16
gomiamProteous: probably not :-)10:16
jaemtape drives aren't as cool as they sound...10:17
Proteousthey are when they use audio tape10:17
KotCzarnywhat about tape worms?10:17
Proteousand when you record your program off the radio10:17
gomiamoh dear, #wifi is empty. Well, I guess I'll have to keep Googling XD10:17
ProteousKotCzarny just got back from the bathroom and he is talking about tapeworms10:17
jaemI think the speed of tape would put a bit of a damper on the worms10:17
KotCzarnygomiam: #wlan ? #wireless ? #wpa ?10:17
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jaemor at least, the speed at which they could propogate [sic[10:18
ProteousI was just joking about the #wifi10:18
gomiamthanks KotCzarny10:18
ProteousI assume there is some channel of that type, but I don't know what the name is10:18
KotCzarnygomiam: but i guess google is better10:18
aquatixgomiam: it is connecting to the right connection? with no connection saved for it?10:18
Proteousa google search for "EAP WPA-PSK" would probably do the trick10:19
gomiamaquatix: I have tried it both ways, with a preconfigured connection and with autodetection10:19
jaemProteous: how about this sort of audio tape:
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Proteousjaem, I want one that comes in a CD formfactor10:20
jaemhehe, that would be the day10:20
gomiamin both cases it finds the WiFi network and apparently starts setting it up, but it fails to connect in the end10:20
jaemmicromirror arrays in a disc10:20
gomiamtrying static IP...10:20
ProteousEAP packets seem to be used for radius WPA athentication10:20
jaemactually, my job this summer was flipping bits - but I became redundant when they bought a high-speed inverter10:20
KotCzarnyflipping bits?10:21
KotCzarnysounds mind numbing10:21
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KotCzarnyand finger numbing too10:21
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jaemI was kidding - it's a joke my friend and I have regarding the quality of the jobs I got this past summer10:21
gomiamProteous: oh, the router has the ability to use a RADIUS server10:21
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gomiambut none is configured.10:21
jaemanalogous to flipping burgers (== lousy, pointless job)10:21
KotCzarnybits can be bits of meat10:22
Proteousor bits of human flesh!!10:22
jaemGround Beef is Ground10:22
KotCzarnyhe didn't specified what bits he was using10:22
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Proteousare these big endian or little endian bits?10:22
jaem(and, Worn-out Phrasal Template is a worn-out phrasal template)  >< sorry10:22
KotCzarnylittle indian bits10:22
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Proteousno one has ever heard that one before10:23
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ProteousCOMEDY GOLD10:23
KotCzarnybeefed up bits10:23
ProteousI like my bits raw10:23
jaemas in, a "2" bit10:23
jaeme.g. magic smoke10:23
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KotCzarnyit's a kind of sweet too10:23
Proteousall my computer run in trinary10:24
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* Proteous forgets the s10:24
gomiamProteous: it works/it doesn't work/it's off?10:24
KotCzarnyyes, no, maybe10:24
gomiamKotCzarny: yes, no, do you really want to know?10:24
KotCzarnyyes, no, not mine?10:24
jaemWhich value would you like the bit to have?10:25
jaem             [OK]10:25
jaemif you need bits, the founder of Autodesk has some you can have:
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KotCzarnynow in colour10:26
KotCzarnydo we have such thing for nit ?10:26
jaemI guess a guy who can take a russian nuclear icebreaker to the North Pole for an eclipse can afford some nice random, yummy, hot bits10:26
gomiambleh, still no go.... I don't understand what is it that makes my N800 specifically fail with this router... now (until yesterday it worked flawlessly)10:27
jaemI've been having problems with WPA2-Enterprise, but that's probably just my uni's stupid network10:27
jaemthey try, but they continually fail10:27
jaemat least the unsecured one works10:28
jaemI'm going to fire up some bluetooth goodness to get my N810 on the net in my room, until I can fix my router10:29
lcukKotCzarny, hows the video ? :)10:29 if I could only find the BT dongle among the mass of hard drives, routers, vintage computers, and robots cluttering up my desk :P10:29
KotCzarnylcuk: youtube was down, so i fired up 'magnolia' for me10:29
lcukdont mind that, like what you see?10:29
KotCzarnyi shall watch it now10:30
gomiamok, time to go. Work awaits10:30
gomiam(computer clone restore, yay....)10:30
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KotCzarny2451.4 kbps10:31
KotCzarnymy poor dsl10:31
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KotCzarnyi shall download it then10:31
jaemBeware of buying electronics from sketchy booths... my BT MAC is 11:11:11:11:11:11 ><10:33
jaemis it possible to change (at least temporarily) a bluetooth MAC?10:33
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KotCzarnywith proper init10:33
jaemno - this is my dongle10:34
jaemmy NIT is fine10:34
hrwjaem: whats wrong with this mac?10:34
jaemwell, judging by my impression of the company that made it, and the general level of Fail present in the dongle, my guess is that they may not actually have unique MACs10:35
hrwjaem: but thats fine as long as you do not have second such dongle in same area10:37
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jaemyeah... like I thought, that MAC isn't registered as belonging to any vendor10:37
jaemwell, the were sold at my uni, hence my concern10:37
KotCzarnyat least it's not 00:00:00:00:00:0010:37
jaemcome to think of it, the RED bluetooth logo should have been a tip-off10:37
jaskaor ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff10:37
jaem(not to mention the upside-down Windows-compatibility logo)10:37
KotCzarnyCheck the bdaddr utility that comes with the bluez-utils source10:38
KotCzarnythat's a google result10:38
KotCzarnyhadn't tried10:38
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JaffaMorning, all10:55
X-FadeMorning Jaffa.10:55
jaemhmm... something tells me that connecting to an unsecured network with SSID "donteventryit" may not be wise - but what the heck!10:56
* jaem feels adventureous10:57
jaemgood night/morning everyone10:57
KotCzarnynite nite10:57
jaemthanks for the help, everyone10:58
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* Jaffa has identified part of the root cause of #3335 and #3542 - I'm a happy man.11:07
KotCzarnyroot digger11:07
JaffaBut now I've gone mack to my OS2005-levels of mistrust on backup/restore11:07
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jaemhello again11:39
jaemsomehow, the whole "going to bed because it's late" thing didn't work out as planned :D11:40
jaemand everything11:40
jaemin otherwords, 4211:40
KotCzarnyyou will be hurting later11:40
jaem2:30PM class11:40
jaemnot so much11:40
lcukliqbase overview 3
jaemso... I set up Telepathy-haze for libpurple integration, but the chat client tries to connect to my MSN contacts using GTalk... and then complains - loudly11:41
jaemhowever, if they initiate a conversation, it's fine11:41
jaemany ideas on that?11:41
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RST38hmoo, lcuk11:51
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RST38hlcuk: You integrated a brwoser?11:54
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AStormis there a new flasher release as well as system release?12:02
AStormbecause I'm going to finally update my device to Diablo, now that it has some down time ;)12:04
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JaffaAStorm: be *very* careful of restoring saved wireless LAN connections: see #3335 and #354212:30
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hamidHi, Can i install maemo on n73 ?12:36
X-Fadehamid: No.12:36
hamidX-Fade: thx :)12:36
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AStormJaffa: I won't be restoring backup :)12:40
JaffaAStorm: to me, that sounds *very* sensible :-(12:40
AStormtrick is, all the data is on card12:41
AStormand for wlans, I know all the connection data (except one, but there I'll have to get a real account anyway)12:41
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AStormbtw, is there some better daemon to control backlight based on light sensor?12:44
AStorm(more configurable than the default with 5 positions and no possibility to set the function to calculate backlight)12:44
AStorm(two linear functions would be enough for me)12:46
AStorm3 would be en12:46
AStorm*even better12:46
AStormor should I write something to do that?12:47
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jaemif you do write something, I'd use it13:12
jaemby the way, is there a way to turn off the warnings that say "Nokia has not blessed this piece of software, use at your own risk"? I know by now that most of my apps are not from Nokia's repos, and I don't really give a darn13:13
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pupnik810ping -B #maemo13:50
solmumahahi arnim13:52
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melmothpong too !13:58
pupnik810RST38h, vgba 3.6 fixed most of the compat problems13:58
pupnik810very excited to see the fb0 scaling vedrfsion :)14:01
pupnik810hi solmumaha, melmoth14:01
RST38hI know14:01
RST38h3.6.1 will fix the speed14:02
RST38hbtw, if you like any of my stuff go vote for it at maemo downloads - lets bring it up into the best software list =)14:03
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RST38hheh, vanhoof is happily proposing to add one more major daemon to the system14:26
RST38hsomebody has to stop this madness14:26
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X-FadeRST38h: I read something different?14:26
RST38hxfade: dunno, it is on planet14:27
RST38hxfade: and my comment is there as well14:27
X-FadeRST38h: In any case this will replace metalayer-crawler thingy?14:27
RST38hxfade: no :(14:27
mgedminthe thumbnailer thing?14:28
RST38hcrawler crawls mp3 metadata (tags)14:28
RST38hthis thing will create image thumnails14:28
mgedminit sounded sane to me14:28
X-FadeRST38h: I tought it crawels every data. Also images etc?14:28
mgedmina program asks for a thumbnail (via dbus)14:28
RST38hxfade: afsik not14:28
mgedminand goes on working interactively14:28
RST38hmgedmin is correct14:29
mgedminwhile dbus spaswns a thumbnailer and has it work in the background14:29
X-FadeSure, but that is no runnig daemon.14:29
RST38hand if it does not die, it will create rquested thumbnail and inform the caller14:29
X-FadeDamn, packet loss on my keyboard ;)14:29
RST38hconnected to n810?14:29
RST38hthere is a bug for that you know14:30
X-FadeThis will only help others with not needing to code thumbnailing stuff themselves.14:30
X-FadeI don't see this as a bad thing?14:30
RST38hI am against MORE resident stuff14:30
X-FadeRST38h: This won't be resident.14:30
RST38hmaemo already has 3 major resident processes, neither of which works well14:31
X-FadeRST38h: And you really missed a lot of talks at the summit ;)14:31
RST38hI have not missed any of problems with my 810 though:(14:31
RST38hsomewhat against more dbus stuff too (although not as much)14:32
X-FadeRST38h: You should really read the article again..14:32
RST38hI did.14:33
X-FadeAnd also his previous one:
RST38hdoes nothing to disspell my instability fears14:33
RST38hespecially after modest14:34
X-FadeRST38h: It is open software you know ;)14:34
RST38hxfade: it is what comes from nokia by default14:34
X-FadeRST38h: Yes, but if you have a problem. You can fix it.14:35
RST38hxfade: my opinion is that all the default stuff from nokia must 100% work14:35
RST38hthe rest is open software14:35
X-FadeKicking against things doesn't help a lot.14:36
RST38hI know. But it does give some minor satisdaction.14:36
RST38hespecially the "told you so" stage14:37
X-FadeFor you maybe, but a lot of people will eventually put you on their ignore list.14:37
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X-FadeAnd that can't be a good thing.14:37
* RST38h is pretty selfish and will prefer personal satisfaction :)14:37
RST38has to pvanhoof or timeless they seem to have automatic ignore on anyone who does not agree with their master plan, so arguing with them is useless14:39
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Khertan_n810Hello Again (copyright apple inc)14:45
RST38hbtw, anyone ever got any flash applets to work in diablo?14:46
lcukhi Khertan_n810 , i am so sorry i missed you when i left - i had a great time and really enjoyed meeting with you :)14:47
Khertan_n810lcuk: i really enjoying meeting you too14:47
lcukand you were mostly understandable \o/14:47
lcukhow was the trip back14:48
Khertan_n810a lot of discuss with loic minier while waiting the boarding at tghe airport14:49
Khertan_n810and funny to discuss in the plane with two corean14:49
Khertan_n810which use an iphone14:49
lcukyes, i think we all came away with lots to think about and to try to achieve14:49
Khertan_n810and explaining why i prefer the n810 over an iPhone :)14:50
lcukmy explanation is simpler - i stopped finger painting when i was a baby14:50
Khertan_n810and i ve now enought feedback to know that mCalendar need a syncml synchronisation14:50
Khertan_n810and you how was your flying back ?14:51
Khertan_n810i think you get some nokia contacts interested by your demonstration ...14:51
lcuktiring.. i was slightly delayed leaving tegal, then landed in frankfurt late - was told to RUNNNNNNNN through the airport which i did at top whack (i was like a man possessed, i think its where my sore through has come from)14:52
lcukthe security staff saw my distress and very nicely calmed me down14:52
lcukand reassured me that i had not missed the flight14:52
lcuki think i did the 4 minute mile ;)14:52
JaffaKhertan_n810: cool on the syncml thing (does the latest version use alarmd for auto-sync?)14:52
lcukwith a laptop case14:53
Khertan_n810Jaffa: yep14:53
lcukKhertan_n810, yes, it has piqued the interest of a lot of people :)14:53
Khertan_n810lcuk: of course as it s really interesting14:54
lcuki am going to hold all features exactly here and enter a cleanup and extended beta testing phase to iron out any remaining issues (hard written paths initial data inclusions/configuration options etc)14:54
Khertan_n810Jaffa: i m looking at this time if there is an existing implementation in python to not recreate the wheel14:54
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JaffaKhertan_n810: cool - I'm surprised of the scarcity of SyncML implementations, last time I looked.14:56
lcukkhertan or anyone else , if you would like to be involved in the testing phase for liqbase (nothing more than running and reporting required) then get your name on the thread here14:56
lcuktheres a new youtube video but you dont get to laugh at my accent this time :D14:57
lcukits not as slick cos im a bit under the weather but runs over most things as they were at the summit14:57
Khertan_n810yeah i will test it14:58
Khertan_n810i m coming back to work14:58
lcukheh,  excellent14:58
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lcukim goin grabbin lunch anyway15:00
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pvanhoofRST38h, ?15:03
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pvanhoofRST38h, you understand that this daemon shuts itself down after a moment of inactivity?15:04
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pvanhoofRST38h, that it gets activated by dbus?15:04
RST38hyes, X-Fade explained to me15:04
pvanhoofOk, so what about the madness that you were referring to?15:04
RST38hstill, it is less reliable than a library call15:04
pvanhoofRST38h, thumbnailers cal be provided by 3th party developers who might make shitty code that crashes15:05
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pvanhoofRST38h, if a library does it in-process, that means that 3th party developer can make your software crash15:05
RST38hpvanhoof: And you want to run third-party thumbnailers as a dbus service>15:05
pvanhoofRST38h, please elaborate on how a library call is more reliable?15:05
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RST38hA library call simply brings your app down. No aftereffects.15:06
pvanhoofRST38h, they can run as their own service, yes15:06
RST38hIn the worst case, it hangs your app but you can still close it15:06
pvanhoofRST38h, isn't that a huge aftereffect?!15:06
pvanhoofRST38h, also, A LOT OF apps will be using thumbnails15:06
RST38hNo, it is manageable as far as a user is concerned - "Program just died, so I restarted it"15:06
pvanhoofso ALL those apps will crash if a bad 3th party thumbnailer is installed15:06
pvanhoofno it's not managable15:07
pvanhoofon the device the user's process IS ALL15:07
RST38hNow, stuck service is invisible to the user - can't close it, can't see it unless using 3rd party process viewer (and knowing what it is)15:07
pvanhoofif you crash them all, the user has nothing useful anymore15:07
pvanhoofthat means 100% and total fail15:07
RST38hThe only actual advantage a service has is that you can lower it in priority and avoid total hangup15:07
pvanhoofSince ALL data is installed accessibly by the user, differentiating between root and user makes no difference15:07
pvanhoofsure it can close it15:08
pvanhoofand it will self-close after a timeout too15:08
RST38hDoes stuck Modest self-close after a timeout?15:08
pvanhoofRST38h, yuo do know that a daemon that is just running the mainloop, wont even consume any significant amount of battery,for example, right?15:08
RST38hWhile it is stuck, can you bring it up with a dbus call?15:08
RST38hYes, but it is not like it will stuck in the mainloop :)15:08
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pvanhoofThat's a bug in the program. I don't see how this relates to your concerns15:09
pvanhoofbugs must be fixed15:09
pvanhoofYuo have a problem, and you think replacing solid architecture with insane architecture will solve it15:09
RST38hMy concern is that running large or fundamentally unreliable code as a service is a bad idea15:10
RST38hUsing a library call is not insane - it is plain and stupid approach that is known to work15:10
pvanhoofand inprocess with a majority of your applications is a good idea?15:10
pvanhoofno, it IS insane15:10
pvanhoofdude, seriously15:10
RST38hWhy is it insane?15:10
pvanhoofknow what you are talking about15:10
JaffaIf it's fundamentally unreliable, it *should* be extra-process (and, even better, made not unreliable)15:10
pvanhoofJaffa, exactly15:11
RST38hJaffa: Not really, if you think about it15:11
pvanhoofRST38h, consider this. and DO consider it this time15:11
RST38hJaffa: If it is fundamentaly unreliable, it will die in or out of the process15:11
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JaffaRST38h: and if it dies in-process it takes all my unsaved work with it.15:11
pvanhoofRST38h, 3th party application developers require the possibility to plug-in extra thumbnailers for yet unsupported formats15:11
RST38hJaffa: So, you better have it die in a place where you can easily clean up after it15:11
pvanhoofRST38h, so their potential unreliable code WILL run15:11
JaffaRST38h: if it dies extra-process, it can be restarted without disrupting my work.15:11
pvanhoofwhether you like that or not15:11
RST38hJaffa: Nice assumption :)15:12
RST38hjaffa: Now, let us see how it is really work15:12
pvanhoofRST38h, so YOUR solution is to let ALL applications in their OWN process space run THAT unreliable code15:12
pvanhoofAnd you call that more sane than an activatable daemon doing it15:12
RST38hJaffa: If that service is doing all the work and it dies, it STILL takes all your work with it :)15:12
RST38hJaffa: at least browserd does :)15:12
pvanhoofRST38h, no it doesn't. It just dies15:12
pvanhoofRST38h, your library will take all your work with it15:13
JaffaRST38h: anything can be killed eventually. For example, it could be added to the watchdog and regularly pinged over dbus15:13
JaffaRST38h: most of my work isn't being done by a thumbnailer - which is the design being discussed.15:13
pvanhoofJaffa, is right here15:13
pvanhoofmost of his work ain't thumbnailing15:13
RST38hJaffa: Well if it is truly optional then it does not matter if it dies or not (unless it gets stuck in a loop browserd style)15:13
pvanhoofthe thumbnailer service can be killed, crashed, whatever, and it wont disrupt his apps15:13
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pvanhoofIf this code would run in Jaffa's applications process space, it would kill Jaffa's apps15:14
RST38hJaffa: But in this case, the developer has to absolutely *guarantee* that the service will terminate15:14
JaffaRST38h: indeed - and then the only differentiating thing is that IF it does die (which is a bug which should be fixed, anyway) it doesn't take my app with it.15:14
RST38hpvanhoof: No, it will just kill one app it is linked to15:14
pvanhoofRST38h, but A MAJORITY OF APPS DO15:14
RST38hJaffa: Well if it is a dbus server it won't take its caller out15:14
RST38hJaffa: So the real issue here is how to avoid it hanging up15:14
pvanhoofMusic players, file managers, searchers, browsers (showing thumbs for bookmarks): they all need thumbnailing15:15
pvanhoofso all these would crash15:15
JaffaRST38h: indeed - but *you* called it "fundamentally unreliable"15:15
RST38hJaffa: Notice that both browserd and modest fail to solve this issue15:15
RST38hJaffa: In fact, mplayer (called from Canola) fails to solve it too15:15
pvanhoofRST38h, you are taking a product that has failed for you, and you are now thinking: if those fail, then all fail15:15
pvanhoofRST38h, but you are really not knowing what you are talking about15:15
RST38hpvanhoof: I am taking at least 2 *critical* system components and say that they do not work well15:16
pvanhoofRST38h, first of all, no application will hang until thumbnailerd responds15:16
RST38hpvanhoof: As to my not knowing what I am talking about, this is somewhat incorrect :)15:16
pvanhoofif it gets killed, the application will just get a DBusError, and will either handle that or retry15:16
RST38hpvanhoof: No problem with implementing thumbnailer as a service. but only AFTER other critical services are fixed.15:16
pvanhoofKilling the daemon wont kill the apps, at all15:16
pvanhoofRST38h, I already replied that a problem that team X has, doesn't mean teams Y and Z must wait15:17
RST38hJaffa: BTW, should we remember the media crawler as well? How it has a tendency to go into a loop?15:17
RST38hpvanhoof: I do not see this as a problem of team XYZ15:17
pvanhoofRST38h, if you propose that development methodology, you are just proposing something idiot15:17
RST38hpvanhoof: I see it as a problem with a firmware release15:17
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pvanhoofI don't know why you are reading developer's blogs then15:18
RST38hpvanhoof: How this problem is solved in house by Nokia is of no particular interest to me a s a user15:18
pvanhoofyou should read marketing people's blogs15:18
pvanhoofRST38h, yes, as a user, don't read the blogs of developers15:18
pvanhoofread the blogs of marketing people15:18
RST38hBut I do *politely* suggest to avoid making the problem worse.15:18
pvanhoofpolitely, right15:18
RST38hpvanhoof: Thank you, I will make my own decision on what I read :)15:19
pvanhoofI'm not forcing you to buy something15:19
pvanhoofNot even working at nokia, except as a contractor15:19
RST38hActually, once the next software update arrives from nokia, you do15:19
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Jaffapvanhoof: know of any Nokia marketeer's blogs which they disdcuss future stuff? ;-)15:20
RST38hAs I mentioned to XFade before, all the default stuff that comes from Nokia *must* work.15:20
pvanhoofJust said, I'm not employed by nokia. You should complain to marketing people for high-level complaints like: if you don't fix problem X first, don't even think about problems Y and Z!!!15:20
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RST38hpvanhoof: Am I complaining? I am just describing the current situation.15:20
pvanhoofJaffa, What about quim?15:20
pvanhoofRST38h, there's a public bugzilla with products for Modest and the browser15:21
RST38hI can of course repeat this description to Quim but he has probably heard it hundred times before15:21
pvanhoofI seriously don't know why you are constantly whining about those, as they are totally unrelated to thumbnailing15:21
RST38hpvanhoof: Should I list to you the bug ids then? :)15:21
RST38h'cause all the proper bugs are filed15:21
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pvanhoofWell, and as a subcontractor I know that bugs have been solved and are being tested as we speak15:22
RST38hpvanhoof: because I expect the thumbnailing to add to the problem15:22
pvanhoofYou expect that because you don't know what you are talking about15:22
RST38hOn the other hand, I do understand that background thumbnail creation is nice and useful15:22
pvanhoofYes, and a library will not make your device more stable. Exactly not15:23
RST38hOh, you do not know how well I know what I am talking about :( Let's not get into this though.15:23
RST38hthe library will just take the whole app with it15:23
RST38hnot nice but at least controllable15:23
pvanhoofA library would require nokia to write their own license that allows linking with closed things15:23
pvanhoofas 3th party developers will want to develop closed thumbnailer plugins15:23
RST38heven an .so?15:23
pvanhoofAnd if a lot of apps use the thumbnailing15:24
pvanhoofthen the bad software will periodically make important apps crash15:24
pvanhoofhow is that managable?!15:24
pvanhoofLike, your filemanager will sometimes crash15:24
pvanhoofAnd then tracker will sometimes crash15:25
pvanhoofAnd then the image application and the camera app will sometimes crash15:25
pvanhoofElse, we can show you a nice message that says: the app with this info in the package crashed, you want to check for updates or uninstall?15:25
pvanhoofAnd that app would be the bad 3th party thumbnailer15:26
pvanhoofYou tell me, what is most managable?15:26
pvanhoofRST38h, "one application sometimes crashes" is not a good answer. Those applications are the crucial backbone of the device. Without them, there's no functional device. They can't just crash15:26
* RST38h is ok with applications that sometimes crash15:27
pvanhoofRST38h, for example if tracker would "just crash" it could corrupt the index database15:27
pvanhoofThat means rebuilding it, that means several hours of battery consumption15:27
RST38hThat is what happens anyway15:27
pvanhoofRight, so you want an architecture of random(), where sometimes things crash. Sporadically. Instead of always one thing that crashes, that is perfectly identifyable15:28
pvanhoofhey that's great for you15:28
pvanhoofYou can flash your device with Windows CE, RST38h15:29
pvanhoofThat'll give you that behaviour15:29
RST38hThis is as close to calling me names as you have got so far.15:32
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RST38hBut anyway, my original statement stays: fix browser, email and (possibly) media crawler first, then add more services15:33
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RST38h[not meaning you personally of course :)]15:33
pvanhoofI'm not involved in email anymore, and the problem (if it's the same problem that I have in mind) has been fixed in recent releases15:34
pvanhoofAbout browser and media crawler, I don't even know those guys15:34
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RST38hpvanhoof: Recent release no longer busy-loops but it hangs.15:34
pvanhoofThen file a (new) bug about that15:34
RST38hbrowserd busy loops at the lightest provocation - had to kill it 4 times via ssh just last night15:34
pvanhoofI don't see why you need to piss on the guy specifying a thumbnailer infrastructure15:34
pvanhoofThat has absolutely nothing to dow ith this problem of yours15:35
RST38hThis is not problem of mine. This is just a problem.15:35
pvanhoofNot even in a single imaginable way. Except that both things run under the same kernel15:35
RST38hThe reason why you have been "pissed upon" (wrong choice of words but anyway) is because you suggested introducing more services into the system15:35
pvanhoofDude, yeaa .. I hear youuoeee15:35
pvanhoofIt's unrelated to thumbnailing. Listen15:36
pvanhoofthank you15:36
RST38hBut if I have to file a bug "hung thumbnailer copies multiply with time" or something similar, you can expect the "told you so" reaction ;)15:37
pvanhoofIntroducing services has nothing to do with the problem15:38
pvanhoofThe problem of modest was bad initalization of Microb's NSS afaik15:38
pvanhoofFor that reason it hung in a lock()15:38
pvanhoofMeaning that the kernel will not even schedule it anymore, but that yes it hangs15:38
RST38hit still does, btw =(15:38
pvanhoofI don't know if they have released packages with the fix yet, as I said, I'm not involved with Email anymore15:38
RST38hnot yet, not for the latest bug15:38
pvanhoofAlso, modest is not a service. It gets ran as a service by hiding its user interface15:38
RST38hbrowserd hangups I have traced to something inside it busy-looping with gettimeofday()15:39
pvanhoofBut it's not developed as a service, the UI is just not visible15:39
RST38hPossibly Flash player. Which brings a question if *anybody* managed to run *any* flash applet on Diablo?15:39
pvanhoofAnd modest is opensource, so you can fix this problem too15:39
pvanhoofRST38h, actually .. the flash stuff runs in process with the browser15:39
pvanhoofRST38h, just like a .so would, actually. In fact, it IS a .so afaik15:40
JaffaNow I've worked around #3542, I just wish modest had the grouped conversation thing for dealing with the mailing lists15:40
RST38hpvanhoof: according to htop it works in process with browserd now15:40
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pvanhoofRST38h, I don't know of a flash plugin that runs in its own process. Except google's recent browser makes the plugins run in their own processes, afaik15:40
pvanhoofBut I'm no expert on this15:41
pvanhoofAnyway, the fact that your browser hangs is caused by a 3th party developer: macromedia15:41
RST38hpvanhoof: no, the problem there is that the whole browser is now a service15:41
RST38hpvanhoof: So if it hangs, you cannot easily kill it15:41
pvanhoofThen make a little python applet that does killall -9 browserd?15:42
RST38hthe reason for hanging is not important but given that there is whole Gecko there, there will always be a reason15:42
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RST38hpvanhoof: Sorry but why should I do something like that? Why not fix the browser?15:42
pvanhoofSure, and that's a reason to say that all services are bad?15:42
pvanhoofRST38h, exactly what I'm saying: fix the bug15:43
RST38hOr change the architecture to allow killing it with the close icon15:43
pvanhoofRST38h, you know that your device runs a large amount of services, right?15:43
RST38hpvanhoof: 'cause there are problems with at least 3 major services in Maemo15:43
RST38hpvanhoof: and there is a certain common trend with these problems15:43
pvanhoofYes, people whining15:43
pvanhoofUsually people who have no clue15:44
RST38hLook, people would not whine if there won't be any problems15:44
RST38hweren't sorry15:44
pvanhoofBut if people don't have a clue, why are they trying to propose an architecture ? especially if that architecture doesn't make sense?15:44
pvanhoofAnyway, I should really let go of this and try to get something done here15:45
pvanhoofone final thing15:45
pvanhoofRST38h as to pvanhoof or timeless they seem to have automatic ignore on anyone who does not agree with their master plan, so arguing with them is useless15:45
pvanhoofYou wrote that, right?15:45
pvanhoofYou are aware that development of the spec and prototype was done 100% in community mode, that I mailed xdg-list about the spec before the first line of code was written15:46
pvanhoofthat a discussion about it took place15:46
pvanhoofYou understand that saying that I'm ignoring people is bulls. right?15:46
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ShadowJKwith nspluginviewer in firefox, plugins run as a separate process15:55
pvanhoofit's not firefox on the device, right?15:55
pvanhoofAnyway, I don't know how plugins run15:55
pvanhoofBut I know it's not related to either modest, thumbnailers, other services15:56
ShadowJKno it isn't15:56
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pvanhoofSo I'm categorizing all this as a rant, and continuing my work :)15:56
ShadowJKbrowserd sounds like a terrible idea, surely it'll just bloat to the point where it would be 50X faster to load a fresh browser instead of trying to swap in random bits of the existing :-)15:57
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pvanhoofI guess it's just the browser's code hiding a UI15:58
pvanhoofI don't consider that to be a service15:59
pvanhoofA service is something you can ask, and it'll perform that for you15:59
pvanhoofs/ask/ask things15:59
pvanhoofYou could of course say: I asked it to render a webpage15:59
pvanhoofHmrr, well .. I still wont consider it to be a service.15:59
pvanhoofShadowJK, they could just have a small app that keeps all the libraries of gecko mmapped() (dlopen()-ed)16:00
pvanhoofShadowJK, that would speedup loading the browser drastically too16:00
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ranithi, is there a way to provide tooltip using Qt for n810, I tried with setToolTip but it's of no use on the device16:13
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EgSranit: tooltips are working with Qt on n810... the issue is that it's hard to "hover" with the stylus over an item16:14
Mekhow would a tooltip even work on a touhcscreen only device...16:14
EgSMek: my point exactly ;)16:14
ranittha's right16:14
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ranitmay be by getting the single click event to display the tooltip and double click to exec the action16:17
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atulHi Is ther any way to remote loging to scratchbox.17:09
RST38hlog into your host machine then log into scratchbox17:10
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andre___hmm, so if you'd want to file a bug against File Manager, would you take a look into "Applications" or into "System software" product in bugzilla?17:14
* andre___ is undecided on reorganizing17:14
RST38hApplications seems more logical17:14
RST38hIt is an app after all..17:15
RST38hBut if it is the file-open dialog, it goes under a different category17:15
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RST38hBtw, have we got a bug about file-open dialog trying to scan all the subdirectories in the current one? Takes almost a minute on my n81017:16
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crashanddieandre___, system software17:18
andre___hehe, differing opinions means "if in doubt, keep it as it is"... i should finally post the "grand plan" at this weekend17:19
ShadowJKpvanhoof, well, preloading on a ram-limited machine seems silly in the first place17:22
pvanhoofShadowJK, depends17:22
RST38hShadow: actually, preloading browserd loses about 5MB of memory17:22
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pvanhoofIf the most used app is the browser ... then it makes a lot of sense17:22
RST38hShadow: So it is not the main problem with it17:22
RST38hShadow: the main problem is that, with Gecko there, chances of making it "not crash" are nil17:23
pvanhoofpreloading doesn't make new processes (being browsers) not restart from scratch17:23
pvanhoofpreloading just makes sure the .so files are all in ram17:23
RST38hpvanhoof: btw, do you know how much time preloading saves with MicroB?17:24
pvanhoofkilling the browser and restarting it will still restart all running code17:24
RST38h[well not preloading, but using browserd, ok]17:24
ShadowJKmicrob starts pretty quickly as is17:24
RST38hpvanhoof: between 2 and 3 seconds :)17:24
pvanhoofbrowserd, yea: just gtk_widget_show () instead of fork() execv()17:24
RST38hpvanhoof: our friend timeless did not believe at first but then grudgingly accepted this17:24
ShadowJKI mean, most of the time if I have the browser running, and have done something else in the meanwhile like xchat and watching a movie or similar, then switching back to the browser can take longer than it took to load it in the first place :/17:25
pvanhooflooks like the running browser got its cache swapped out17:25
pvanhoofHave you enabled a swap file?17:25
pvanhoofDisable it17:26
ShadowJKWhat, and have random programs die all the time? :-(17:26
pvanhoofWell, if your running browser swaps away a bunch of memory to a extremely slow flash device ..17:26
pvanhoofAnd you make the kernel swap it back in17:26
pvanhoofthen yea, that'll take some time17:26
pvanhoofBut without swap, there wont be swapping-out :)17:26
pvanhoofJust more memory usage17:27
ShadowJKI don't know what's worse, painfully slow swap-in or programs getting killed by the random() algorithm :D17:27
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pvanhoofIt's a choice :)17:27
RST38hShadowJK: Official response:
ShadowJKThe first swap-out is pretty fast and unnoticeable, sequential writes that stream quickly to flash17:27
EgSspeaking of slow: is the internal memory card slower then sdhc cards?17:27
RST38hyes, somewhat17:28
ShadowJKbut then paging in from swap again in random order, and paging out some of those pages again in random order, is a real killer for flash17:28
ShadowJKI'm sure there are both faster and slower sdhc cards :)17:28
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EgSI see17:28
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crashanddiegood god, is this my lucky (or unlucky) day?17:29
pvanhoofShadowJK, it's a mobile device, with extremely slow storage compared to what people usually use for swap17:29
crashanddieI've had 6 different calls from agencies, only today, when I haven't had a word in about 2 weeks17:29
pvanhoofShadowJK, so if you enable a swap file, it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't work as expected17:29
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ShadowJKbut atleast you /can/ enable swap17:30
RST38hcrash: Agencies do not count17:30
ShadowJKWhich is a big plus17:30
pvanhoofShadowJK, I guess for the amount of tasks and memory that you want, you better buy a newer device :)17:30
RST38hcrash: Any prospective employers though?17:30
pvanhoofWith more ram17:30
ShadowJKI really hate browsing/chatting/etc on my Nokia E70, when it runs out of ram it just picks one of the open programs and kills it :)17:30
pvanhoofShadowJK, yes you /can/ enable it, but the device is not designed for it :)17:30
crashanddieRST38h, well, I discount people who just call to tell me they're "looking to find me job", only people who send actual job descriptions and everything17:30
pvanhoofWhich means that switching processes can mean swapping in and out17:31
ShadowJKWhat other devices are there that fit in pocket and runs a non-bastard os :-(17:31
ShadowJKand have lots of ram17:31
pvanhoofThe next version of the device?17:31
crashanddieShadowJK, yeah, I doubt it picks one, I just think the malloc fails and the program gets killed for that, so whichever app tries to access more RAM first get pwned17:31
pvanhoofI have not yet received mine :)17:31
ShadowJKThe default in Linux isn't malloc failing...17:32
pvanhoofso I don't know, and if I would know, I would have to kill you after telling you  etc etc etc17:32
pvanhoofI think a linux kernel can overcommit memory usage17:32
pvanhoofThat's why you want a OOM killer17:32
RST38hcrash: Ah17:33
ShadowJKOtherwise it'd never allocate much memory to apps, unless you had lots of swap as backup17:33
pvanhoofit's also a copy on write allocator afaik17:33
RST38hcrash: I would discount all the agents though - not useful at all17:33
pvanhoofso if you do malloc(10milj) it wont really allocate it17:33
pvanhoofbut if you start writing it, it will17:33
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pvanhoofShadowJK, thing is, no matter what decision you make .. you are going to have people who disagree :)17:35
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johnxhmm, next device will have more memory? I'll bet against it. :)17:44
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X-Fadejohnx: Just add 4GB RAM and be done with it ;)17:46
jott128mb is enough for anyone!17:46
* jott wishes for more ram too :/17:47
woglindehi jott17:47
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johnxjust looking through packaging info for the OMAP3 makes me think that 128MB of RAM / 256MB of flash will be very likely17:47
johnxI'm fine with 128MB though17:47
johnx256MB would be nice of course...17:47
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jott128mb is very low when you want to use a browser with multiple tabs and multitask...17:48
X-FadeAnd a filesystem that supports XIP would be nice too :)17:48
jottit's fine for text-tools :)17:48
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, that's mostly because Micron/Samsung don't _have_ a PoP with 256/256 or 256/51217:50
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GeneralAntillesBut we're talking about 8 months from now.17:51
GeneralAntillesSo they likely will by then.17:51
jottlet's hope so..17:52
jott(and that it will be used)17:52
johnxGeneralAntilles, I think Nokia is less likely to be on the bleeding edge like Pandora devs.17:52
GeneralAntillesI know the Beagle guys are looking at shipping a 256MB RAM-only PoP.17:52
GeneralAntillesjohnx, Pandora devs are stuck with 128/256 too. ;)17:52
GeneralAntillesOnce it's available, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't use it.17:52
johnxTime will tell I guess, but Nokia usually gives their hardware a chance to be field tested, so they won't be doing things last minute is what I mean17:52
GeneralAntillesWell, 8 months is a long time.17:53
jottGeneralAntilles: because it depends when the deadline for such design decisions are..17:53
GeneralAntillesIf Micron/Samsung ship a new PoP by November.17:53
johnx^ what he said17:53
GeneralAntillesIt's not out of the realm of possibilities.17:53
GeneralAntillesWho knows, they could be planning on having the PoP ready by the time it goes to press already. ;)17:54
jottyeah. well still for now it's only a wish :)17:54
johnxGeneralAntilles, your optimism is impressive :)17:54
GeneralAntillesand Nokia really likes proving me wrong, it seems. :(17:54
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jottjust wish the contrary :)17:55
GeneralAntilles64MB RAM?17:55
johnxman I sure hope they don't add more memory17:55
RST38hYea, General, you are being too optimistic =)17:55
johnxswapping is aaaawesome17:55
RST38hBetting on shit happening is always safer =)17:55
jottyou can only be satisfied in the end :)17:55
jottor just say "i knew it" :)17:56
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RST38h*or* you can say "it came out so well!"17:56
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johnx_grrr...desktop is crashing18:07
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woglindehm the 5 seconds linux system bootup think rockz18:08
woglindebut we have to wait for .28 kernel for integrate some stuff18:09
johnx_kinda neat.i prefer suspend to RAM though18:09
johnx_it would be nice right now though18:11
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* GeneralAntilles should get back to harassing Apple about their UA stupidity with MobileMe.18:16
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GeneralAntillesAngry email sent.18:26
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* johnx_ stabs his desktop18:32
woglindeto the death?18:32
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johnx_nah. just til it works18:33
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johnx_thinking heat related18:40
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malikulhey guys I need your help. I have a python script which is being launched by init.d. Its goal is to open an osso_xterm program. When I run the script it opens a new osso_xterm window but no program. my command is as follows osso_xterm program program_args18:43
malikulit is identical to what I have set in a working menu button. the script is run as user...any ideas? I am also using sudo to launch the program after osso_xterm18:44
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AStormdoes anyone here know of a good *working* rss reader?18:56
AStormdefault one fails miserably with some feeds (says they have a parse error)18:56
XTLahs, ass18:56
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AStormwith a desktop applet of course :)18:57
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AStormfunny part is that browser displays the feed correctly18:57
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johnxheh...gpu temp is 94c at idle. little high?18:58
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XTLClose to boiling H2O coolant :)19:00
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AStormmalikul: init.d is ran before Xomap is started19:00
AStormjohnx: what kind of CPU?19:00
penguinbahello world!19:01
AStormif it's core 2 duo, then 100°C is max...19:01
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AStormmalikul: maybe... maybe if you add it to runlevel 519:01
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AStormthat could work (Xomap should have been already started by then)19:01
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johnxits a gpu. geforce 660019:01
AStormassuming DISPLAY variable is set19:01
AStormjohnx: well, sounds very hot19:02
GeneralAntillesjohnx, air conditioning.19:02
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GeneralAntillesThat, or clean out the dust. :P19:02
AStormair conditioning won't help if it's internal temp ;>19:02
AStormactually, it will, but not enough19:02
AStormthese should go to 110 °C max19:02
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johnxyeah. it dies hard when x starts19:04
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johnxwonder whats up with it19:04
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andre___"sapwood theme engine" - is that still available or is it dead? you guys are a bit longer in this maemo business than i am19:09
malikulAStorm: Thanks I have a delay of about 2 min though. It starts to load after the device is fully booted...and then some19:10
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jottandre___: it's still being used, at least in diablo.19:10
Khertan_n810Hello again19:10
andre___jott, oh, okay. but isn't that just another theme?!19:10
* andre___ is confused that we have three components for theme issues it seems, sigh19:11
GeneralAntillesWhich 3?19:11
AStormmalikul: does the xterm start?19:11
jottandre___: it's a pixmap based theme engine.19:11
AStormbtw, is 4.1 with latest update now 4.1.1? (for bug reporting)19:11
jott(all maemo themes use it)19:11
andre___GeneralAntilles: desktop/themes, system sw/hildon-theme, system sw/sapwood19:11
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jottandre___: well the themes are defined in a separate gtkrc, but all use sapwood to render.19:12
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jottso you can have a bug in sapwood and one in the gtkrc (the actual "theme")19:12
johnxand sapwood is weird enough to deserve separation19:13
jottand another one in the matchbox theme...19:13
andre___gosh. and now expect a reporter (or me as a non-coder) to understand that ;-)19:13
jott(for window borders etc)19:13
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AStormandre___: well, the bug will be properly reassigned if you miss that :>19:13
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andre___AStorm, heh... *if* there is something with that knowledge reassigning it: yes ;-)19:14
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AStormjohnx: RSS reader, eat bug #374019:14
AStormsomeone messed up the parser I guess19:14
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AStormeither css stylesheet info is messing it up19:15
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AStormor the xml info19:15
AStormboth of which are standard compliant19:15
jottandre___: so i guess the 3 products/components make all sense :)19:16
malikul123AStorm: xterm starts up but displays nothing. and the terminal cannot be used...even why you open a new is just blank19:16
AStormmalikul123: then it's a bug19:16
AStormI'd say report it, try reproducing w/o init script19:16
AStorme.g. by running a shell script later19:16
AStorm(with a launcher)19:17
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AStormok, so does anyone have a better RSS reader?19:17
AStorm(desktop plugin wanted)19:17
malikul123AStorm: alright let me see what I can do with a forced script loading it without python.19:17
andre___jott, not the system-sw/hildon-theme one to me. i'd prefer to merge that into desktop/themes. anyway, just setting up drafts currently and waiting for feedback once i've posted them :)19:18
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jottandre___: yeah well, as i said, desktop is actually matchbox and "hildon" is the gtk styling. but i guess for an end-user it's easier to have just one section. i just wonder how it would be handled internally (thinking of using bugzilla for nokia tasks).19:22
andre___yeah... a trade-off.19:22
lakinHi all, I was trying to install Fennec on my n810, w/ chinook, via the instructions at:  I can add the repository just fine and fennec shows up as installable, but when I install it, instead of "fennec succesfully installed" I get an "Unable to install fennec" [Close] ... no reason why19:23
lakinany ideas on how to try out fennec, or is it just a matter of waiting for the mozilla guys to fix their repo?19:23
GAN800Don't bother19:24
* Khertan_n810 doesn t understand why he can t have a transparent Treplet19:24
GAN800It's stil way slow and crashy19:24
* Khertan_n810 doesn t understand why he can t have a transparent TreeView Applet19:24
lakinGAN800: aaah, ok.19:24
AStormjott: solution is simple19:25
jottAStorm: let bugmasters reassign? :)19:25
AStormcreate a mailing list, to which two other mailing lists are subscribed :)19:25
AStormlike a metaassignment19:25
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AStormthen, people can reassign19:25
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jotti guess it boils down to whether the same guys within nokia (or some subcontractors) do desktop and hildon theming :)19:27
GAN800What it really boils down to is that they're not gonna be looked at anyway, so it really doesn't matter.19:28
GAN800^ pessimistic enough for yah? ;)19:28
AStormindeed, Nokia doesn't seem to be fixing much19:28
AStormat least, that's how Diablo looks19:29
johnxGAN800, much better :D19:29
AStormprobably, they have their hands full of Fremantle19:29
AStorm(or what it's called)19:29
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andre___yesh, three cheers for pessimism! :-P19:30
johnxcard at 98c. time for new fans...tomorrow. night all19:30
GAN800I wish I had remembered to had out the taser implants for the Summit.19:31
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jottGAN800: so we just need one section for everything now called "deprecated stuff" that automatically sets everything to "WONTFIX"? :)19:36
GAN800Nokia/doesn't care19:36
GAN800instead of confirming with 3 votes, it's WONTFIXed.19:37
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jottthis bug has been marked WONTFIX due to popular vote? :)19:37
thuxStskeeps: is there a way to install your deblet version from tar.bz2 package without using installer?19:38
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GAN800If it doesn't have the votes, it's obviously not worth WONTFIXing19:38
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GAN800exactly the opposite of that bug.19:40
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jott"my battery sometimes lives 6 days and sometimes only 4 hours, is this normal?" :P19:41
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AStormok, so where do I get canola for Diablo... or is there none yet?19:44
GAN800From Extras?19:45
jottit's in extras "non-free" for now.19:45
GAN800Apparently the beta10 release was a false alarm. ;)19:46
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AStormsome python2.5-terra is missing19:48
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AStormhow can I install that then? :P19:48
GAN800You're not installing beta 10, right?19:48
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AStormGAN800: I was trying to ;P19:48
AStorm(had extras-devel enabled)19:49
GAN800X-Fade, what's the status of package deletion these days.19:49
AStormso, someone screwed up there again :>19:49
GAN800He's already been whipped.19:50
AStormpity there's nothing in application manager to pick a repo from which to install19:50
AStorm(or in apt)19:50
jottAStorm: with apt you can at least provide a =version ..19:51
AStormhmm, but how can I find out about other versions? :P19:51
AStormthat needs a complete correct version string19:52
jottapt-cache policy pkgname19:53
rioterm... i have some weird problems with my n810..19:54
riotsome strange things are happening, among them the following: i was just ssh'ed in and was executing "ls" then it bombs me out with a glibc-error like this one:19:55
riot*** glibc detected *** -sh: corrupted double-linked list: 0x0004b180 ***19:55
AStormjott: and that will show all versions?19:55
jottAStorm: should do.19:55
riotis this a hardware-problem?19:56
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AStormriot: that or miscompilation19:58
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riotAStorm: its an almost new device with Chinook, i didn't touch anything. It worked wonderfully until yesterday.20:03
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AStormis that reproducible?20:12
AStormwrrr... ogg-support doesn't work still20:12
riothmm. yes it is20:12
AStormno lightmediascanner0-ogg >=0.1.920:12
riotand i get a short-read when trying to backup the system using dd or tar20:12
AStormriot: is that Chinook 2007.51?20:12
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riotuh, possibly, i'll have a look20:12
AStormthat tar bug is known busybox issue :)20:12
AStorm(that old version of course)20:13
riotaah, the hostname is Nokia-N810-51-3, so i suppose, the 51 is the version?20:13
jottriot: on the internal 2gb card?20:13
riotjott: no, or, possibly, i tried to backup /20:14
AStormjott: the default is 512 flash chip20:14
riotexcept proc, sys, etc20:14
riothmmm. so, i'm gonna upgrade to diablo now, in hope that the problems will vanish.20:14
jottAStorm: huh?20:14
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AStormjott: I mean, the system is there20:15
AStormthe tar short-read happens with some old busybox versions20:15
AStormlike the one chinook uses20:15
AStormah, yes, sorry ;P20:15
AStormobviously 256 MB20:15
jottah ok.20:15
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riotAStorm: still it makes me suspicious along with the glibc-errors i have20:15
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riotthis alltogether looks a little bit like a faulty flash20:16
jottwell noting because the n810 internal 2gb has a broken partition table..20:16
riotwhich would be.. hmm bad!20:16
AStormyes, fix that table20:16
jottwhich may causes some weirdness..20:16
AStormnot pointer corruption though20:16
riotjott: but the internal 2 GB are unrelated to the 256 MB flash, are they?20:16
jottriot: yes.20:16
AStormthey are20:16
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lcukevil dentists!20:18
lcuk~lart dentists20:18
* infobot squishes dentists like a bug20:18
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jottyeah it needs an particular mind-set if you want to become a dentist :)20:19
AStormstill no working lightmediascanner-ogg ...20:19
jotthi lcuk btw :)20:19
lcukhiya jott20:20
lcukthey have finally done some much needed work on me20:20
GeneralAntilleslcuk, go talk to k-s.20:20
k-slcuk: ops!20:20
jottis k-s a dentist or just another victim? :)20:20
k-slcuk: I talked to GeneralAntilles at #canola about libqbase20:21
k-slcuk: i had some questions20:21
lcukdrop the b and i'll know what you are talking about ;)20:21
k-sbeing lazy and willing to use libqbase as evas engine :-)20:21
lcukits ok, just looks wrong20:22
lcuk:D excellent20:22
k-swhat's wrong?20:22
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Italodanceummm guys what's the ip of n800 modem?20:22
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k-swell... my first question is: is it immediate mode rendering?20:22
k-s(this is mostly all I need to know to check if using it for evas is possible or not)20:23
lcukok k-s im just about to enter a beta testing phase - im gonna put a halt on dev for the short term to clean it up and get it working as a nice end user app20:23
riotduh.. i misplaced my diablo-upgrade... what are the upgrade-files called like, so i can look for them?20:23
lcukimmediate mode.. hmmm i would say yes, i render directly onto a canvas then update it20:23
malikul123ok update on the osso_xterm and loading a program directly from a script. I am not getting an error about a few min of a blank screen "Internal error. Appication 'S Terminal closed."20:23
AStormgronmayer says there's 0.1.10 in the repos... then why does ogg-support-lightmediascanner fail....20:24
AStormkulve: any hint?20:24
malikul123anyone know what that error typically points too?20:24
k-slcuk: but do you keep objects around?20:24
lcukbut it is rendered in YUV mode and not the more normal rgb20:24
k-slcuk: or it's draw-and-forget?20:24
lcukthe only objects are what I have created as UI elements ontop20:24
lcukits draw and forget in the core20:24
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lcukhi lardman :)20:25
lardmanhey lcuk20:25
AStormkulve: ah, it's in chinook, but not diablo20:25
k-sI'm asking that because evas already keeps the ui objects20:25
k-sok, so perfect, it is possible to have liqbase backend for evas20:25
k-snow to some doubts I have20:25
k-sprobably I could read the code and figyre out myself20:25
lcukheh, theres always doibts20:25
k-sbut ur here and I lack time these days20:25
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lcukdoubts even20:25
lcukiwhich license is evas under?20:26
k-sBSD :-D20:26
kulveAStorm: canola guys should add that library to diablo. But they don't like the fact that ogg-support isn't build with the builder20:26
k-s1 - do you handle transparency? how (extra plane, 1 alpha for 1 luminance value?)20:27
lcukthats very nice, but you would have dual licensing issues: liqbase is gpl20:27
AStormhmm, bot doesn't listen to me? ok, what is that new builder thing?20:27
infobotupload-extras is, like,
jottlcuk: in fact it would just become gpl as you can "upgrade" bsd to gpl ;)20:27
k-slcuk: I don't mind, we already have qtopia backend (it's outdated)20:27
lcuki can load a png image with alpha channel, then during the blit I can blend20:27
k-sjott is right20:27
jott(at least the particular rendering backend and all derived stuff from it)20:27
k-slcuk: but is the image kept as argb?20:28
lcukyes, its the derived stuff which would complicate matters20:28
k-sor converted to yuv?20:28
AStormah this one20:28
lcuktechnically its YUVA20:28
k-slcuk: ok, so A is another plane? same size as Y?20:28
* lcuk made up a definition for alpha channeled YUV images since none seemed to exist20:28
lcukumm i cant remember which way round i did it20:29
lcukgimme a mo20:29
lcuki tried both methods - with Alpha bein full res, then alpha bein half res20:29
jottlcuk: no nothing complicated about it. if liqbase code is used, everything that derives from it gets gpl. the bsd code will just adapt in that case.20:29
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AStormkulve: so, I'll just cheat for now20:32
AStorminstall the chinook deb directly - will it work?20:32
kulveI haven't tried..20:33
lcukfull res alpha channel :)20:33
k-slcuk: 2 - how to you handle cases where there is a hard border at some odd-position pixel20:34
k-sie: red and green rectangles have a border at x % 2 == 120:34
k-sdo you make it green, red, brown?20:34
lcukyou mena after a scaleblit20:34
k-syeah, you don't have full resolution for colors, just Y20:34
k-sin this case would you have Cb = 0, 255 or 128?20:35
riotwoo, successfully flashed to diablo :D20:35
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lcuki believe i blit on the even quadrant only, i dont try to do anything for the final odd pixel (each plane is blitted independently)20:37
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lbtwho was whittering about sound and sound APIs yesterday?   This ::  may be interesting 8)20:37
AStormexcept.... there's no real way to get gapless playback with gstreamer20:39
AStormand it's been that way since forever20:39
* lcuk nurses his poorly mouth20:40
lbtis that the proprietary one?20:40
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riothm. Now i'm disappointed. The Pinentry still sucks in diablo20:41
AStormthe pointless people at GStreamer still haven't added that very needed feature20:42
AStormwhich *should* be simple to add unless the framework is totally broken by design20:42
lbtdid they reject your patch?20:42
riotthough i'm very surprised about the backup-system.. nice job, there..20:42
churlive got a problem, application manager is not finding any installed apps20:43
AStormlbt: no, it's actually said to be done in the app20:43
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AStormso, by splitting a pipeline in two20:43
AStormone part for decoding, another playback20:43
AStormpity gstreamer has no real queue support, or stream chaining20:44
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AStormanyway, that is easy enough to fix by splitting pipeline in two and passing buffers around by hand... or someone writing a simple "chaining" part of the stream20:45
lcukk-s, was that all you needed to bug me about20:46
lbtAStorm: not used it myself - and, TBH, it was more an FYI that may be useful for people looking at the various sound subsystems out there (just 'cos I caught snippets last night)20:47
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AStormlbt: the patch would be an API change20:47
AStormGStreamer people know that doing gapless playback in it is hard20:47
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benno2hi, I am running diablo on the n800 and sometimes the wlan connection drops. when I step out of the coverage this point I have to click on the wlan icon again and reactivate it. could I do it using a script ? is there a way to force to fire up the wlan. like ifup wlan0 or something ?20:50
k-slcuk: sorry, I was doing some stuff here.20:50
AStormabout the only GStreamer player that does gapless is... Songbird20:51
AStormand that's ultra-heavy20:51
sneakretbenno2: That's odd. Mine auto-connects to known access points when they're in range.20:51
AStormbenno2: check autosearch interval20:51
lcukthats ok, ks its a very basic library built more for speed than quality, but obviously it kicks ass :)20:51
k-slcuk: how you blit to the even only?20:51
AStormit's in control panel, default is 10 minutes20:51
lbtbenno2: so does mine :)20:52
malikul123AStorm: thanks for your advice bro. I broke it down and it ended up being just very sensative20:52
k-slcuk: rectangles: red=(0, 0, 3, 1), green=(3, 0, 3, 1) should share the same color (Cr) pixel20:52
malikul123AStorm: works now. Thank you20:52
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lcukk-s the blitter i have prefers to blit 32bit values, so for an 800 pixel wide blit it copies 200 longs.  then the color planes - theres 400 pixels of data, it does 100longs20:52
k-syou'd have 3 color values there: red (cr=255), unknown and green (cr=0)20:53
lcukit will simply overwrite the color pixel20:53
lcukwith the latest blit value - unless of course its doing the alpha blitting20:53
benno2sneakret: sneakret, lbt: I have an app open which constantly transmits data and when out of the coverage range it hangs (this is normal), when i  reenter the coverage area (after 10-20secs)  sometimes it reconnect, sometimes not. you have to use the icon to activate wlan again.20:53
jottlcuk goes for speed not quality :P20:53
benno2AStorm: 10minutes or 5minutes it too long, I need something like 10-20secs.  any idea how to force it ?20:54
lcukindeed - but speed was of vital importance to the feel of the app20:54
lbtI took my tablet out today and it's still in my coat pocket. I can ssh to it just fine.20:54
jottyer, nothing wrong about it. just a matter of priorities ...20:54
AStormbenno2: autoreconnect is an option of the connection itself20:54
k-slcuk: I see, and I have no good solution for that20:54
AStormbut it will try only a few times :)20:54
lcuki dont need a solution :)20:54
k-slcuk: so I was checking and willing to get a "GREAT" idea20:54
k-slcuk: ehehehe20:54
lbtAStorm: you mean the AP config?20:54
AStormlbt: yup20:54
benno2AStorm: yes, but do you happen to know if I can force the interval to be lower (10-20secs)  by modifying some config file instead of using the gui ?20:55
k-slcuk: I had lots of similar issues with software-16 for evas, had to simplify stuff in order to get performance correct... for instance: it is impossible to blend white over white and get white! :-D20:55
lcukwhen i reduce the blit down to byte optimized only (as the scaleblit is) i lose a large percentage of speed20:55
lbtI didn't realise - I'm using openWRT or something (dunno - it just works and it's OSS)20:55
lcukwe will have to talk more when my mouth isnt so sore20:55
lcuksounds like we have both had a similar marathon :)20:56
k-slcuk: ok, seems good20:56
* lbt wonder's if lcuk is tongue-typing...20:56
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k-slcuk: until I invest some more time investigating20:56
lbtkinda like touch typing but wetter20:56
AStormlbt: uhm... AP config in n810 of course :> == connection config20:56
* jott inflicts pain on lbt and sees how he types then :D20:56
lcukim not a pierson's puppeteer20:56
k-snow back to work20:57
k-slcuk: thanks for your time20:57
lbtAStorm: OK - thanks, wasn't sure20:57
lcukno prob :)20:57
k-sthe funny thing is that I had this idea, for another reason, for evas20:57
lbtjott: he's only sad 'cos bacon is hard on a sore mouth!20:57
lcuk:( no bacon for me20:57
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lcukthey brought the filling stuff practically by the barrow load20:57
k-sit was primarily to avoid RGB->YUV conversions for Emotion (which uses xine and evas)20:58
lcukrgb->yuv isnt so bad if its a one off20:58
k-ssecondly for the blit performance20:58
lbtlcuk: it's all piling up though - you can have double-decker butties when it gets better :D20:58
lcuk:D oh yerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr20:58
k-slcuk: if we do rgb->yuv we would not be able to play fullscreen video on n8x020:58
k-snot even because of conversion20:58
k-sbut bandwidth20:58
lcukbut isnt most video stored natively at yuv?20:59
lbt<sigh> back l8r, got to do real work...20:59
k-slcuk: yes, it is20:59
k-slcuk: but evas engines (so far) are mostly ARGB premul20:59
lcukits like JPEGs - i can access and load them faster because i dont have a YUV->RGB conversion20:59
k-slcuk: so you have to convert videos to that20:59
lcukso why not use a YUV layer for playing native videos in?21:00
lcukala mplayer?21:00
k-slcuk: we dod that :-)21:00
jottbecause you need a yuv engine for compositing :)21:00
k-slcuk: but another layer = not easy to blend21:00
k-sif you want to blend21:00
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k-seither convert to YUV or RGB21:01
lcukso you can currently read->convert->blend quick enough for video files?21:01
k-sconverting to RGB is no-go21:01
k-slcuk: no, we blit to an XV window, that is on top of evas window21:01
lcukgood, do you blit in 32bit blocks (or more using SIMD)21:01
lcukcos if you manage to get it working you will gain incredible speedups on blit :)21:02
jottyou could just use memcpy after some alignment or use ssvbs armv6 optimized memcpy that handles alignment :)21:03
lcuki tested with memcpy21:03
lcukand with bytes21:03
lcukand words21:03
lcukand longs21:03
lcukand extra asm versions (but they failed)21:03
k-slcuk: we do21:04
k-slcuk: we're basically bound to bus bandwidth21:04
lcukmemcpy gave a speed test result in my app of 3.5 32bit gave 8.021:04
lcukbecause of the overheads with calling the function - rows of data are small and theres lots of them so the overhead counts21:05
k-sthese were the tests we did21:05
lcukahhh yes ive looked21:05
jottah that where yours not ssvbs.21:05
lcukthat was what i couldnt get to work ;)21:05
lcukthink its the thumb mode or something im in, but it locked no matter how i tried21:06
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jottah no ssvb in headers :)21:06
k-sit was meant to be usable with omap1710 as well (770)21:06
lcukyer, i think its just the mode i am in, but everything i tried just didnt work: i added an extra 64bit section to the blitter and attempted to move using double's21:07
jottlcuk: yeah depends on the width of the image of course. (nearly) fullscreen video blitting could be faster with memcpy though.21:07
AStormk-s: then do ifdefs21:07
lcukstill 400 calls to it jott21:07
AStormthe new quick memcpy is much faster21:07
AStormor SIMD21:07
* lcuk drooled at SIMD but gave up trying to get it working21:08
jottyeah but your relying on gcc 3.4.4 optimizations for tight loops :P21:08
lcukit wasnt important at the time21:08
lcukespecially now since i cant use any: strechblit is byte optimized and cant use it, lines are bytes, etc etc21:08
lcukstraight glyph blitting works really well as does full image blitting, i dont have any issues there21:09
lcukheh, jott i noticed the speed tests were coming out really badly for a while after i upgraded - i realised after that the inline that was there was no longer being honoured because the base function which calls it many times was outside the module21:10
k-sAStorm: we use the new glibc memcpy21:10
* lcuk scratched his head at that one21:11
AStormwhich is slow still :)21:11
k-sAStorm: and about ifdefs, patches are welcome. I doubt it will impact much on real use cases21:11
AStormwell, it may improve FPS on full screen updates21:11
jottlcuk: still keep in mind that you are doing not much else atm. consider the load caused by video/audio decoding. so you still want to grab every extra cpu cycle you could optimize :)21:11
lcukyer jott, totally understood - but from a personal perspective i had the performance i need and can create the things i wanna build21:12
k-sfrom my POV, the biggest difference here is using less data21:12
jottyeah. WORKSFORME bug closed :)21:12
lcukif it becomes a problem ill look back on it - but i could spend forever optimizing21:12
k-swe're about the bus limit already21:13
lcukk-s, its not THAT Much less data21:13
k-sit's a HUGE constraint on the visual part, but it's less data21:13
k-sit is21:13
k-sand some operations are cheaper21:13
lcukyou should get tearfree technically by updating 75% of the screen21:13
k-smany rect fill become memset()21:13
lcukif it was solely the bus21:13
k-slcuk: yeah, but of course you're not doing useless color fills all the time21:14
lcukbut a rectfill cant use generic memset unless its the whole plane21:14
k-slcuk: throw in a designer and eveything becomes multi-layered semi-transparent effect bling21:14
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k-slcuk: you can use rectfill for span21:14
jotthah nice catch-phrase k-s :)21:14
k-sjott: really... try to work with marcelo (handful), it's hard to keep performance with the desired effect21:15
lcukk-s - then tell the designers there are constraints on an embedded device :)21:15
k-sit's not bad, as the visuals are fine21:15
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lcukyer it looks sweet :)21:15
k-sbut, you have to kill yourself to figure out how to make it fast21:15
jottk-s: sure. not arguing .. :)21:15
AStormso real :)21:15
k-slcuk: are you kidding, huh?21:15
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GAN800Just think, it'll all mostly be irrelevant when the next device rolls around. :P21:16
lcukno im not actually, its designers that have killed the vista experience - same thing, bling overkill makes for a sluggish unrewarding experience21:16
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k-s800x480x2 = 768kb per screen in 16bpp mode21:16
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k-slcuk: are you working with 8 bits components?21:17
k-s576k for yuv21:17
k-snot a huge difference, yeah21:18
lcukso 800*480 + 400*240 + 400*240 = 576000 == 3/4 of your bandwidth21:18
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jottplus overhead for yuv=>yuv blitting by xv :p21:18
AStormdon't forget to add some chaff to that number21:18
lcukso - shouldnt it be possible if it was bus only to update 600*480 or something and leave some static21:18
AStormso it's actually more than that21:18
lcukAStorm, XV adds overlay these guys dont have21:19
RST38hGAN: Actually we do not know how relevant it will all be21:19
k-sjott: ?21:19
lcukthe planar YUV objects are converted to an interleaved format before sending21:19
RST38hGAN: lcuk is using XV extension afaik - that one will still be available at the new device21:19
jottk-s: the lcd controller uses a different yuv format than xv, hence xomap converts the plane based yuv from xv to the tight format the lcd controller uses.21:19
GAN800The bus issues are all gone, though.21:19
lcukand it will be faster than anything else still :)21:20
k-sjott: no way to bypass that?21:20
lcukGAN800, faster and faster :)21:20
jottk-s: no, only by using framebuffer.21:20
RST38hGAN: hipefully =)21:20
k-sjott: /dev/fb0?21:20
jottk-s: yer, with omapfb extensions for updating etc.21:20
k-sjott: ok, doable21:20
GAN800RST38h, you can play with the bus-issue-free hardware right now. :)21:21
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lcukk-s - its technically possible to write directly in the interleaved format and write directly, its a last ditch attempt which would gain even more speed theoretically, but the added complexity of the blitting routines would mean its not even considered for now21:21
k-smplayer does that already21:21
jottk-s: yes.21:21
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* lcuk wrote notes on how to impliment the algo a while ago21:21
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k-sok, i need to digest most of that, think and who knows some day, try it out21:21
jottlcuk: depends on the data structures. it's definitely not as straight forward :)21:22
k-sno time for that now :-)21:22
AStormlcuk: so, what is holding up the true 30 FPS? :)21:22
lcukyer k-s, its a tough problem - you would gain in some respects but almost certainly lose in others21:22
lcukwithout doing ANYTHING major (just updating a single tiny corner) the refresh is no faster21:23
puslinghi peoples. my n810 seems to have "lost" usb connection. Nothing gets registered on the pc when I plug in the usb cable in the device. what to look for ?21:23
lcukhowever at lower resolutions the refresh rate goes way up21:23
lcukie, i get 25fps if i do a full screen blit, i stil lget 25fps if i do nothing21:23
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lcukbut at 640*480 i get 33fps21:24
AStormah, so vsync is?21:24
jottbut if done right you will be *always* faster using the native format and the framebuffer instead of xv.21:24
RST38hGAN: Do not make me buy *another* dev board. I have got a box full of them at the balcony21:24
RST38hNo longer fun, unless somebody is paying for developing on it...21:25
jottotoh xv eases X11 integration :)21:25
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lcukprobably astorm, but i never used to wait for that when i was doing and it doesnt skyrocket when doing nothing21:25
GAN800RST38h, then don't. My point was, is that there's really no 'hopefully' about it.21:25
lcukthe anaesthetic is wearing off, this is becoming unbearable, bbl21:26
jott(and xv ensures compatibility with other devices)21:26
AStormlcuk: well, 800*480*16*30 is 175 Mb21:26
AStormthis might be a bit too much ;P21:26
lcukk-s nice talkin with you (and you as well jott and others)21:26
lcukcyas in a bit21:26
AStorm25 FPS is 150 Mb21:26
RST38hGAN: You mean, omap3 is known to support 800x480 glue-free?21:27
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jottRST38h: given they don't use some broken lcd controller again :)21:28
jottbut yeah omap3 can handle it fine.21:28
RST38hjott: well they had to use it because omap2 couldn't do 800x48021:29
GAN800OMAP3430 can handle up to 1024x768 without issue21:29
jottstill nokias engineers are known to make some strange decisions from time to time :)21:29
GAN800Which, again, was my point. :)21:29
RST38hjott: look at the bright side: they do it less often than nintendo!21:30
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AStormis that because they release less devices? ;P21:34
RST38h"More and more, people here look back to the era of harsh Taliban rule from 1996 to 2001, describing it as a time of security and peace."21:35
RST38hAStorm: Depends on whether you count in end products or in components =)21:35
RST38hAStorm: Nokia definitely releases moredifferent end products (handsets) but Nintendo often releases a new cartridge type that has weird hardware customers have no idea about21:36
AStormdefinitely :)21:38
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malikul123hey everyone thanks for your help22:13
malikul123I have fixed my bugs in the program22:13
malikul123WOOT WOOT!! thanks again22:13
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* lardman is seriously thinking about getting a TomTom22:20
KotCzarnya tamtam?22:20
lardmanisn't that a biscuit?22:21
KotCzarnykind of a drum22:21
KotCzarnyi think22:21
lardmanoh right22:21
woglindelardman why?22:21
lardmanhad hassles navigating today22:21
lardmanhmm, spelling there?22:22
qwerty12_N800lardman: I loved tomtom on a ppc. replaced it with a garmin nuvi and regretted ever since :/22:22
lardmanyeah, one of my mates has a Garmin and it's crap22:22
woglindewhy is the garmin crap?22:22
lardmanit send him down every small road it can find :)22:22
lardmanyeah, might be something to do with the setup, but he says not22:23
qwerty12_N800the maps that came with suck lumpy pieces of shit and it recalculates the route every 10 mins22:23
woglindeah okay22:23
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lardmanI'd still like something open source, but seeing the lack of roads in Northampton shown on osm, I'm worried22:24
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qwerty12_N800+ the simulation feature of it doesn't have a speed control. let's just say i sat through a 2 hour journey from london to halifax...22:24
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woglindelardman then contribute them22:25
woglinde*duck and hide*22:25
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lardmanindeed, I don't live there though, just had to visit22:25
qwerty12_N800btw, hey KotCzarny , haven't seen you for a while22:25
lardmanI'd still like to look at the mapping/routing stuff, just need something that works (TM ;) when I need it22:26
lardmanif only the n900 were here - then I could justify Google routing updates + maemo mapper22:27
melmothsecond hand tamtam for now then ?22:27
melmothat works.22:27
jottlardman: maybe take a look at roadmap or navit.22:27
lardmanjott: still use osm data backend, so if they lack the data there's no helping it22:27
jottbesides osm they support some commercial maps22:27
lardmanyeah, Garmin, but no routing with navit afaict22:28
jottah i thought so.22:28
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lardmanmelmoth: yeah, probably get a new one, have road speed limits built in I think - signs always appear when you're doing something else like navigating a roundabout/sign22:29
melmothif i had a car, and had to drive, that would be my choice too.22:30
melmothluckily, i do not have one :-)22:30
lardmanI thought it might motivate me to write something, but....22:31
lardmanstill interested, just need something that works, etc.22:31
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melmothtalking about wich, i hope to finish the graph representation of paris in C this week end. so i can compare the memory usage with python22:32
melmothbut my C is awfull, and i write really slow (have to learn at the same time)22:32
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melmoththen, may be, being able to use the same A* routing thingy, and may be have something usable in town22:33
jottlardman: well you could add routing support for garmin maps in navit. if it's missing, there are probably quite some people happy when it's done :)22:33
lardmanmelmoth: well thanks for your work, C it is I think at least for the maemo-mapper backend22:35
lardmanjott: yeah, I don;t have any Garmin maps though, otherwise I might be tempted22:35
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lardmanIf I could work out the TeleAtlas format on the other hand (assuming that's the TomTom one)... but that sounds like lots of work!22:36
melmotha proper maemomapper backend would require much more work (i think soemthing like 2 level in city level and inter city one).22:36
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melmothare third party application using such data allowed ?22:37
lardmanmelmoth: probably not allowed22:37
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lardmanmelmoth: yeah, I'm sure it would be some work, interesting to work out how to do it though22:37
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lardmanhmm, /me wonders about getting a usb-vga adaptor22:41
lardmanI see the cheap ones are sis chipset too, just wonder whether I'll get time to hack at it before the new device is out22:41
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lardmanapparently this is the one maplin are selling, which looks like lots of the others, so probably all the same chipset22:43
jottso what's the cheapest one you found in europe, lardman?22:47
lardmanI guess somewhere around £12022:48
* jott looks forward to 1st december where import allowance is increased to 150 euro :)22:48
lardmanfor a latest TomTom One22:48
lardman:) so not too far off at the current exchange rate!22:48
* lardman will probably see who's offering deals, tmc would be useful too22:49
jottdoes this import allowance also apply in the uk? or just "euro" states?22:49
lardmanno idea, our import regs are rather opaque22:49
lardmanthey tend to just charge if they find out, afaict22:49
jottwell there should be some threshold (in germany it's currently 22 euro afair) that is free of charge.22:50
jottthis will apparently be increased by some eu regulations to 150 euro in december.22:51
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jottthanks for the password :P22:51
handfulstill the nick :) goddamn mac osx22:51
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handfulat least I am dumb enough to guess the wrong pass :)22:54
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lardmanhandful: we believe you, really! ;)22:58
handful:) it was really, but this was the internettablet talk one22:59
lirian 8db sd card is supported on the n810 right?22:59
lardmanquick! to itt! :)22:59
handfulhehe I've changed hehee22:59
handful:) dumb but not too slow hehe22:59
GAN800Garmin works great in the states.22:59
lardmandamn, I was going to go abuse Ryan on your behalf ;)22:59
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lardmanhow are you anyway GAN800?23:00
lardmanGAN800: might just be the firmware or some setting, but it's put me off for sure23:00
GAN800Just waking up from a short nap on a fine Thursday afternoon and feeling thirsty. . . .23:00
* lardman is consuming wine, been a long day, Northampton and back23:01
GAN800Likely a setting, you cam configure it to prefer small roads and such in navigation options.23:01
lardmanI did enquire as to whether that was the problem, and was told *NO*. :D23:01
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GAN800Probably is the problem, then. :23:02
lardmantrue :)23:03
lardmanI do think it has issues with re-routing though, apparently something to do with time-of-day23:03
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lardmandoesn't appear to keep the current location vs predicted (wrt time) calculate until you hit that segment, etc.23:04
lardmanhmm, that doesn't make sense23:04
* Jaffa has finished off a (small) bottle of wine this evening.23:05
JaffaNow to do the code review I *didn't* do earlier23:05
lardmanJaffa: so you understand my text?! :)23:05
lardmanoops, wrong window23:05
handfullard that's less destructive :)23:05
lardmanhmm, navit svn doesn't compile23:07
jotthandful: yeah we can probably feed john the ripper with your password scheme to hack all your accounts :P23:07
Jaffalardman: actually, yes - Id o :-)23:07
handfuljott: yeah , I changed just 2, so probably a lot of sites will use it :) heuhuehue23:08
lardmanJaffa: good stuff :)23:08
* jott drinks a club-mate to keep the c-base spirit :)23:08
lardmanmy uni sells Ubuntu cola!23:09
lardmanquite surprised23:09
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KotCzarnyis it legal?23:09
KotCzarnyhi qwerty23:09
lardmanlol, the two in the same sentence ;)23:10
jottlardman: well check your target audience :)23:10
qwerty12_N800there's a thread on ubuntu cola @ itt23:10
* lardman needs sugar-free23:10
KotCzarnyaspartam will kill you faster than sugar23:11
jottlook for xubuntu cola that's probably sugar free :P23:11
lardmanah, I lack Insulin23:11
GeneralAntillesWhy do people hard-wrap in the wiki? <_<23:11
KotCzarnybrb, reboot23:11
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lardmanargh, even the release source won't compile!23:12
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jotton your host or in sbox?23:12
lardmansome Python binding error23:13
jottsbox is somewhat broken..23:13
lardmansorry, my fault23:13
lardmansome error compiling the python bindings23:14
jottjust blame the wine ;)23:14
lardmanyeah :)23:14
jottmake sure you use the arm python.23:14
lardmanhmm skipping incompatible /scratchbox/tools/lib/python2.3/config/libpython2.3.a when searching for -lpython2.323:14
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jott(i.e. replace python with python2.5 everywhere)23:14
* lardman wonders if he's upgraded23:15
lardmanis it apt-get dist-upgrade ?23:15
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GeneralAntillesWho was it that decided we could use the word "flashing" in23:15
jottna it takes the redirected python (ie. x86 python)23:15
infobotflashing is probably
jottthus it can compile arm based bindings..23:15
GeneralAntillesPlease look at these google results and tell me that was a good decision. . . .
lardmanjott: ah, ok23:16
lardmanjott: I'll look for a configure switch to disable the bindings then23:16
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GNUtonHi there23:18
GNUtonHi jott! :)23:18
woglindehi gnuton23:18
jotthello gnuton23:19
lardmanhmm, can't see anything, will have to do a web search23:19
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malikulcan anyone do a sanity check on my python command real fast? i am calling os.execvp( 'sudo', ['sudo', 'program', '-s', '-f', '/tmp/config']) is that correct? I have been trolling goodle but cannot get a good answer for when using sudo to call a program with command args23:20
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woglindemalikul why you need this? maybee your app design is not that good23:21
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malikulwoglinde: is a background process that when triggered will call an existing program given a set of arguements.23:22
malikulruns on the nokia n81023:23
woglindemalikul what is your app doing?23:23
melmothwhy is sudo part of the argument too ?23:23
malikulinit.d controls running as user instead of root23:23
woglindesudo will only work in r&d mode23:23
malikulsudo is required because the programs being called use root perms. I updated the /etc/sudoers and included and I am using gainroot23:24
woglindemalikul so you will do not distribut it?23:24
malikulyeah this is for my development systems. speed up configuration while testing23:25
malikulwoglinde: original guy working on it wrote in python...and Iam no python master. :-(23:25
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malikulwoglinde: so did I write the python command correct?23:32
malikulwoglinde: und danka woglinde for your help23:32
mikkov_malikul: I use sudo in python this way: command =["sudo",self.startcmd,"--daemon","--writepid",self.pid_file,"--config",self.conf_file]23:34
mikkov_ Popen(command, shell=False, stdin=PIPE, stdout=None, cwd=self.conf_dir)23:34
mikkov_or this way: call(['sudo','/usr/libexec/', 'delete', f])23:35
mikkov_yours could be correct too ;)23:35
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malikulmikkov_: thanks I will change the command and see how it works23:36
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mikkov_malikul: actually, my way isn't exactly what execvp does (just read the documentation)23:38
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* RST38h is looking at Knol. What a collection of bullshit...23:53
RST38hLike this pearl:
* qwerty12_N800 wants google knob23:56
RST38hconnected to a cattle prod no doubt?23:58
RST38hknol's article on ntsc isn't even correct...23:59
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