IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2008-08-23

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crashanddierm -rf http://penny-arcade.com00:01
RST38hrm -rf /00:02
aquatix403: permission to weirdo denied00:02
aquatixcrashanddie: they are occassional fun :)00:02
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GeneralAntillesWhy would you want to rm Penny Arcade?00:11
GeneralAntillesYou don't have a sense of humor, do you?00:11
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manyosolpotter: so you will do the qgears2 case on N810 while running Qtopia?00:13
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||cwGeneralAntilles: neither does penny arcade... they used to be funny though00:16
GeneralAntillesThey're still funny00:16
GeneralAntillesDunno when you think they became unfunny.00:16
elektthey're not that funny anymore tho00:17
yacoobthey're pretty hermetic sometimes00:17
||cw"there's no dog fscking in golf"?  come on...00:17
elektthey get in these niches00:17
elektxkcd still rocks00:17
yacoobapart from emo-tainted strips, when it doesn't :D00:18
yacoobbut yes, it's pretty decent00:18
yacoobbiggest fall was megatokyo00:18
yacoobit used to be excellent, it's pure shit now00:19
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elektit took me a while to discover the mouseover on xkcd00:20
elektso then i went back a few years and enjoyed the jokes again00:21
lcukhmm, maybe my media scanner is being a little optimistic...00:23
lcukstat failed: '//dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/dev/fd/4/mnt/initfs/sys/module/usbcore/drivers/usb:usbfs/module'00:23
* lcuk changes it to scan "/home/user" and "/media" only00:24
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pupnikgood lord00:33
pupniklcuk: what caused that?00:33
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lcuki started a recursive scan and it did what i asked it to :)00:33
lcukrecursing the filesystem is quick enough to identify all files in the /home and /media folders quickly on entry00:34
lcukof course, that isnt deep information extracted from database for thumbnails or library info, but as a quick refresh its good enough for me00:35
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pupnikhmm.. one could probably speed that up by storing 'last changed' date on each directory, and skipping it if it hasn't been changed since last scan00:39
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lbtnight all00:41
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lpottermanyoso: I can certainly try :)00:43
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jottlpotter: i'm interested in the results too :)00:46
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lcukpupnik, im running in powersave mode and its scanning and locating all *.txt, *pdf, *.rtf from the folders i specified in under a second01:08
pupnikacha nice!01:09
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TrueJournalsHey, I'm having a bit of trouble with the extras builder... it's just failing without reason01:21
TrueJournalsAny ideas?01:21
pupnikno but please document your progress for the rest of us01:21
TrueJournalsWell, not going to make much progress :-P  I have to leave for work in a bit01:22
GeneralAntillesTrueJournals, bad builddeps?01:22
TrueJournalsI haven't changed them, and they've always been fine before01:22
TrueJournalsI'm using py2deb to package01:23
TrueJournalsI haven't upgraded it since I made the last package, which worked fine..01:23
TrueJournals"Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5)"01:23
jga23_anybody get maemopad+ to work with diablo?01:24
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GeneralAntillesIt doesn't just install?01:26
jottTrueJournals: definitely looks like broken build instructions or so :)01:27
TrueJournalsHm... strange01:27
jga23GeneralAntilles: nope, I get an error01:27
jottTrueJournals: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: error: syntax error in control file debian/control at line 13: continued value line not in field01:28
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jottthere is an new line in the description :P01:28
GeneralAntillesjga23, OK, when you get an error and you want troubleshooting help, what's usually the next step? :)01:28
TrueJournalsjott: I'm not allowed to do that?01:28
TrueJournals(I'm still pretty new to packaging :-P)01:28
jottit's a delimiter01:29
jott(an empty line)01:29
jga23GeneralAntilles: see if anybody has figured it out already :-)01:29
GeneralAntillesjga23, no, paste the freaking error. . . .01:30
TrueJournalsjott: Is there any way to get the double new line then?  Or do I just have to deal with a single line break?01:30
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jott"  \n" should work01:31
TrueJournalsOK, thanks :-D01:31
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jga23GeneralAntilles: unable to install maemopadplus, incompatible application package01:32
jga23would using dpkg -i give me a more detailed error?01:32
TrueJournalsjga23: dpkg -i would work01:32
TrueJournalsThe Application manager throws that error when the package isn't in section user/(...)01:32
GeneralAntillesWhere'd you get the package?01:33
GeneralAntillesShouldn't be a section issue01:33
GeneralAntillesmay be a repository issue.01:33
GeneralAntillesDid you try installing from a repository?01:33
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jga23trying now01:34
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jga23hmm, not in the repo01:36
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jga23ahh, its in the chinook repo, not diablo01:39
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andre____anybody knows how to edit to add the SSU update? when clicking on edit, i only get "{{Release history table}}" - is this an "include" variant i didn't know yet?01:45
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GeneralAntilles{{}} always means Template:01:47
andre____thanks. there should be one and only one wiki markup language... :-)01:48
GeneralAntillesThere is01:48
GeneralAntillesMediawiki. :P01:48
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andre____fixed, thanks :)01:52
rm_youGA is the local wiki guru now >_>01:53
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GeneralAntillesDoesn't take much. :P01:53
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andre____well, we just added a link to explain the versions when filing bugs in maemo bugzilla, as it's confusing. but for that that link target should be uptodate :)01:54
GeneralAntillesI updated wikipedia but never got around to updating the wiki table. . . .01:54
andre____yeah, i saw your changes in wikipedia :)01:54
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* GeneralAntilles wants his damn Beagle.02:18
GeneralAntillesStill on backorder. :(02:18
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* moontiger has finished version 0.1 of her first app :)02:21
andre____what is it?02:21
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moontigerummmmm it gets your google calendar stuff and shows it on the home screen02:23
elektlcuk be a lady02:24
lcuki had to change the password on the wifi, now whenever i open network connections it locks up and freezes02:24
andre____nice idea :)02:24
moontigerit doesnt show those yet but maybe in version 202:24
moontigernow i have to package it and all that yadayada02:24
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lcuktheres something wrong on the connections list, does anyone know where the connections are stored?02:25
moontigerlcuk... wouldnt it be in /etc/networking/something ?02:26
lcuki dunno - ill have a look02:26
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GeneralAntillesgconf, probably.02:27
lcukcan anyone tell me the binary name for the networking control panel program02:27
lcukill look GeneralAntilles :)02:27
GeneralAntillesSeems like there's an UNCONFIRMED bug on something like that. . . .02:27
GeneralAntillesMight want to see recent connectivity bugs and see if it sounds like the problem you're having.02:27
lcukits not a recent os..02:28
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moontigerGeneralAntilles, whats the advantage of using for hosting my app?02:30
GeneralAntillesProject management02:31
moontigeri have svn already02:31
GeneralAntillesbug tracking02:31
GeneralAntillesandre____, what about it?02:31
GeneralAntillesmoontiger, it depends a lot on the size of your application.02:31
* Stskeeps glares at maemo initfs02:32
Stskeepswhy on earth does it have an -ancient- version of busybox02:32
moontigerGeneralAntilles, its only a home screen applet so no big thing02:32
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, Nokia didn't feel a need to upgrade?02:32
andre____"binary name for the networking control panel program" - not exactly, but that's the lib behind02:32
andre____Nokia will upgrade for Fremantle02:32
Stskeepsyes, probably02:33
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, Nokia doesn't tend to upgrade thinks for the sake of upgrading02:33
GeneralAntillesBig changes in the boot process are coming for Fremantle02:33
Stskeepsyes, everyone tends to say that, but that doesn't help until fremantle is out ;)02:33
* andre____ got to get to a club... later02:33
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, well, we say that because a Nokia engineer mentioned it in a bug recently.02:34
elektwhat's before freemantle02:34
GeneralAntillesand moaning about old versions wont change help anything, either02:35
GeneralAntilleselekt, Diablo02:35
elektno E?02:35
GeneralAntilleselekt, they dropped Elephanta02:35
elektmust've hurt02:35
GeneralAntillesPure speculation: Elephanta was 4.2, but it was dropped in favor of putting that effort directly into Fremantle.02:36
elektis it gonna be big stuff?02:36
moontigerwhats fremantle going to do for us that the romas didnt?02:36
GeneralAntillesFremantle? Huge.02:36
elektnew gui?02:36
moontigerromans even02:36
GeneralAntillesBig UI workover02:36
yacoob...neeed... less...02:37
crashanddieQuestion: if my software changed a version, how do I tell dpkg-buildpackage this ? Do I have to recreate a new directory with dh_make and everything ?02:37
elekti think i'm gonna skip diablo02:37
moontigerelekt, diablo is good02:37
GeneralAntilleselekt, no point in skipping02:37
GeneralAntillesFremantle is still a ways away02:37
elekti don't wanna flash, it's doing so well02:37
GeneralAntillesand there's already been one update to Diablo02:37
elekton chinook02:37
GeneralAntillesand more will be coming before Fremantle hits.02:37
elektif we get some music apps that will work on diablo i'll flash in a heartbeat02:38
moontigerelekt, such as?02:38
crashanddiethen why not do it immediately ?02:38
crashanddieI mean... If it's just a heartbeat away...02:38
elektmusic _making_02:38
crashanddieyeah, right, you want a MIDI input with that ?02:39
moontigerhmmmmmmmm like sequencers and such?02:39
elektno midi02:39
elektsequencers yeah02:39
lcukwhy cant we produce music apps?02:39
lcukwhy not trackers?02:39
elektmost need qt02:39
moontigerwithout midi it gets tricky02:39
elektmilkytracker isn't very good without a kb02:39
GeneralAntillesUSB adaptor02:39
elektwell sort of crippled02:40
moontigerhmmmmmmmmm usb midi02:40
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lcukwe have touchscreen - this should be childsplay02:40
elektyeah GA there's always a way around, but it'd be really sweet to just whip it out and make music02:40
moontigerbut not multi-touch02:40
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lcukfor a tracker its not important02:40
lcukpeople have been laying out music for years using a mouse02:40
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elektno need02:41
elektiphone apps are just gimmicks02:41
elektmusic* apps02:41
moontigerreally? for making drum tracks u dont need multi-touch?02:41
elekti like programming more than jamming02:41
lcukn810 technically has a keyboard02:41
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elekti've been doing fine with one mouse pointer for 14 years02:42
crashanddieI boycott this discussion02:42
moontigeri would get rather bored laying a drum pattern one drum at a time02:42
moontigerbut point taken :)02:42
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lcuk1 drum per key - the touch interface is for laying out your sequences02:42
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crashanddielcuk, LMFAO02:44
moontigerthe keypad only has 2 or 3 key rollover tho no?02:44
moontigerand the keypad kinda would suck for that too02:44
pupnikwasn't there a 'mmsget' program, like wget but for mms urls?02:44
elekthm i wonder if you can underclock a macbook pro02:45
elektthis thing is so hot02:45
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GeneralAntilleselekt, it should automatically02:47
GeneralAntillesAssuming you have the correct settings on.02:47
GeneralAntillesOr you can force it to "low"02:47
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jottpupnik: mimms?02:56
pupnikthank youuuuu02:56
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kaien810, diablo. email app, imap, ssl. I am unable to get it to fetch email. I use send/receive, nothing happens, no ui feedback. display remains at 0 messages02:58
kaieI'm quite confident I have configured it correctly02:58
kaieif I did not, I would expect some error message02:58
GeneralAntilleskillall modest02:58
GeneralAntillestry again02:58
kaieagain nothing. for fun I have not entered a password in account settings. I would expect me to prompt me02:59
kaiebut when I hit the refresh button or use send/reveice from the menu, nothing happens02:59
kaieI'll to move away .modest and start over02:59
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kaieinteresting, it still created a .modest directory with my settings. where are the mail settings from the pre-diablo mail app?03:00
kaiemaybe it is migrating old settings, when I start modest without a .modest dir03:00
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kaieprobabls apps/email/Mail03:01
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kaievery very confusing. I killed modest. I moved away .modest and apps. I start modest, and it still knows about my email account03:03
kaieso maybe it's the launcher that still has the information cached03:03
kaielet me move away and restart system03:03
kaiehas anyone of you used it successfully with a cyrus email server and imap/ssl ?03:04
rm_youi think so?03:04
rm_youi forget whether we'03:05
rm_youwhether we're using cyrus still03:05
rm_youi set it up with cyrus several years back but i think the server has been upgraded since then by another maintainer...03:05
rm_youlemmie connect with telnet and see if it gives me version info03:06
rm_youimap is... 443?03:06
kaieimap/starttls is 14303:06
kaieimap/ssl is 99303:06
rm_youah 14303:07
kaieweird, even after the restart it still knew about my account. time for a find|grep03:07
rm_youCourier-IMAP <_<03:07
rm_youso, not sure about cyrus03:07
rm_younot sure why it would be especially different if it follows the spec...03:07
rm_youthat said... yeah. i've seen those kind of random compatability issues before <_<03:09
crashanddielol, how can I investigate why the .desktop/.service file doesn't work ?03:09
crashanddie(as in, the icon appears in the menu, but upon launch, nothing happens)03:09
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crashanddienow now kids, don't be shy, you can answer03:12
lcuklog 2 file03:12
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lcukor error stream03:13
crashanddienever mind03:13
crashanddieI'm an idiot03:13
rm_youthat too03:13
jottjust do it right, simple as that :D03:13
* rm_you watches crashanddie crashandburn03:13
rm_youGeneralAntilles: referred users +103:14
rm_yougot one more :P03:14
crashanddiecloudreader 1.0.3-1 REJECTED03:14
rm_youstill not close to your total tho03:14
rm_youhopefully he'll stop by IRC later, maybe tomorrow03:15
GeneralAntillesI got two more while you were sleeping. :P03:15
GeneralAntilles8, now, I think.03:15
kaiesorry, but diablo doesn't do anything for me. not with a good config, not with a fake config. never any prompts03:16
rm_youI only have 203:16
jottcrashanddie: shall i upload it to extras for you?03:16
crashanddiejott, nha that's fine, I'll wait03:17
rm_youGeneralAntilles: you must just know people with way too much money :P03:17
rm_youi can usually nearly convince people to get one, but all my friends are poor <_<03:17
rm_youif they weren't all poor, i'd be at like 1003:18
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crashanddiefor those who want to try03:27
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crashanddieshould work pretty decently03:27
jga23theres no way to get mobipocket books on the IT is there?03:28
pupnikcrashanddie: what does it do?03:29
crashanddiepupnik, it's a new take on RSS readers :)03:30
GeneralAntillesrm_you, they're half students. :P03:30
GeneralAntillesA couple buying them in lieu of laptops for school.03:30
pupniknifty... will wget03:30
crashanddieAny feedback is welcome03:31
GeneralAntillesjga23, FBReader does mobipocket without DRM just fine.03:31
crashanddiejott, thanks for asking though, but I feel better, now I have an error message :D03:31
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jottcrashanddie: hm i would not show this "Loading..." screen, otherwise a funny way to read feeds :)03:32
crashanddiewhy no loading screen ?03:32
jottit would probably look better when you blend between the screens03:33
crashanddieThat's exactly what it's doing, no ?03:33
lcukcan i remove all stored connections from the command line?03:33
jottbut it's distracting :)03:33
crashanddiejott, there's a reason why the loading screen is there, it takes time to process03:33
jottbetter make a progressbar at the bottom of the screen03:33
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crashanddieI wanted an easy solution03:33
jottand then fade over to the result03:34
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n800nwhat's thvdeb url again?03:35
crashanddie[DISCLAIMER] This project is obviously based upon blatantly copied ideas from liqbase :P03:35
jottcrashanddie: and i suppose it is not loading while the "loading..." fades in and out :)03:35
crashanddiethe fading takes one second :P03:36
* lcuk pulls hair out03:36
crashanddielcuk, what's the problem ?03:36
* rm_you helps lcuk with his hair03:36
lcuktracy asked me to get laptop setup to play movies - i couldnt remember my wifi password so i changed it, now all hell has broke loose and i cant get my nokia connected03:36
* jott hands lcuk a toupee03:36
lcukit crashes everytime i open the connections dialog03:37
lcukjott, thats a merkin, and its used - i ain't wearin that03:37
jottcrashanddie: but really make a progressbar and fade to the result, that would most definitely increase the appeal :)03:37
crashanddiejott, I'll think it over03:38
jottlcuk: hey it's an original fetish item worth a million! :P03:38
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lcuki have managed to create a new network connection item by connecting to a new network - it did that fine, theres a problem with one of the old stored items.  i need to delete the stored network connections03:38
lcuklol jott03:39
crashanddiejott, though, the appeal of the loading screen, for me, is that I just display it, process what needs to be processed, and then jump on that. I don't draw a single frame in between. Drawing stuff during processing is going to need me rethinking the whole process :P03:39
jottcrashanddie: yeah, yeah, i understand, it's an ugly hack :P03:40
lcukjott, he accepts patches ;)03:40
jottbinary patches? :P03:40
lcukis there any way for me to get this network cleared out03:41
lcukor am i looking at a massive reflash :(03:41
rm_youclosed (unavailable) source software makes baby jesus cry03:41
lcukevery time you close the source to an application, god kills a kitten03:42
crashanddiestop whining, bitches03:42
rm_youevery time you open the source to an application, god resurrects two kittens as cute cuddly zombie kittens :P03:43
crashanddiethe source has never been closed03:43
rm_youi put "unavailable" in parens :P03:43
crashanddieit's even shared with all the user accounts on this laptop, and on the server03:43
* lcuk is glad its not him being shouted at any more03:44
crashanddieplus, are you both implying jott isn't good enough to apply binary patches?03:45
crashanddieOh well, doesn't surprise me that much, really03:45
lcukjott routines codes directly in binary, wearing only underpants and a cape he battles the 0 and 1s in a matrix world03:45
* jott remembers the good old times of turbo debugger and softice :)03:46
rm_youworking 40 hours in 4 days <_<03:46
crashanddieOne of my teachers one told me: "I don't get all these guys always yelling at me for not distributing the source code; but I don't *have* source code. I just cat | gcc"03:47
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crashanddiejott, I remember the days of softice too...03:47
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jottgood old dos :)03:48
crashanddieHey ! People !03:49
crashanddieThis is my first contribution to maemo !03:49
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* jott opens a bottle champagne03:50
* crashanddie dances03:50
jottjoin us now and shaaaare the software, you'll be free haaackers youuuu'll be freeee :P03:51
crashanddieIt's my first Maemo contribution, but I'm no OSS virgin, bitch :P03:52
kaieI declare that modest on diablo is broken. I flashed the n810, did not restore any backups, thus have a clean device. wireless works, but no email activity at all03:52
jottphp does not count :P03:52
* jott hides03:52
crashanddiekaie, it works, djeezus03:52
kaiecrashanddie, what is your mail config? pop/imap, plain/tls/ssl ?03:53
kaieI try imap/ssl03:53
jottworks here, but i would not call it stable.03:53
jottimap/ssl here03:53
crashanddiekaie, gmail, whatever that might be03:53
crashanddieI'm evil, I know03:54
crashanddieI know, I'm going to hell for that joke03:56
crashanddieBut whatever, I'm going to know people there03:56
GeneralAntilles kaie, did you try killall modest ?03:57
kaieGeneralAntilles, I have flashed the device03:58
GeneralAntillesThat doesn't answer my question.03:58
crashanddieYeah, but modest is persistent03:58
kaieyes I had killed it03:58
crashanddieIt survives reboots and flashes03:58
kaieGeneralAntilles, when I quit the app, ps no longer shows a modest process03:59
kaieand I killed it in addition03:59
kaiekillall modest, no process killed03:59
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kaiestart mail, try to fetch mail, it doesn't even attempt to contact my server04:00
kaieno prompt, no ui progress status, just nothing04:00
kaietools/accounts, last update remains at "never"04:00
kaiesame with password stored in accounts, or empty04:00
jottkaie: maybe use tcpdump to see if any traffic is generated.04:00
lcukdoes backup backup the whole of My Docs?04:02
kaiejott, I run my own mail server, and shut down my desktop mail app. I started tcpdump. I made a telnet to test that tcpdump works04:03
kaiethen I start modest and try to fetch mail. no packes arrive at my server04:03
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jotthm, well. ltrace/strace modest? :)04:06
crashanddiekaie, reboot your device04:07
lcukkaie, could something else be holding the port04:07
crashanddiekaie, then check with tcpdump at startup of modest04:07
kaiecrashanddie, this was the initial attempt after flashing04:07
kaienothing else could have disturbed the connection04:08
kaieI shall restore my backup, so I don't have to do all the manual setup on this naked device04:08
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kaieI don't know what would hold up the port, unless there is some firewall enabled on the n810 after flashing...04:10
crashanddieA firewall04:11
lcukis the rest of the network connection ok04:12
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lcukwhichever way, im off 2 bed, reflashing tomrrow04:13
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moontigercrashanddie, what app you finished?04:18
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Luriahi all04:25
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crashanddiemoontiger, cloudreader04:36
moontigeroooooooo sounds cool ... wassit?04:36
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moontigerit doesnt install :|04:41
elektneed libs04:43
kaieafter restoring the backup, installing all apps, installing tcpdump, modest does not send any tcp packets to my mail server, on no port04:44
kaiewhile when I use the browser to open a page on the same hostname, I get packets04:44
crashanddiemoontiger & elekt: apt-get install wget libxml++2.6c2a libsdl-ttf2.0-004:45
moontigerkaie, i cant stand modest either :)04:46
kaieso, with a new test, I've now been able to see at least some progress04:46
kaieI tried to send an email04:46
kaieI see the email in the outbox, and it showed "sending". after some seconds it has changed to "failed". no packages to hostname whatsoeer04:47
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crashanddiekaie, my usual arrogant self would tell you you fucked up the config at some point04:48
kaiecrashanddie, how could I have done that, if I get the same results after a fresh flash of the device?04:48
crashanddiethat's exactly what my point is04:48
kaiedoesn't the flash remove everything in /home/user ?04:48
crashanddielet me rephrase that04:49
crashanddieYou fucked up the settings in modest, get a grip, change them, play with them. Find a connection that does work, and stop trying on your server, go from working -> non working, and note the differences and thus possible problems04:49
crashanddiebut moaning and whining about it for 3 hours straight isn't going to solve it04:50
crashanddieObviously, we don't know the answer, or we would've tried to help you, but frankly, our guess is as good as yours. So wrap it up, and start doing something useful04:50
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kaieplease tell me, is my assumption true, that after using ./flash-3.0 diablo the device is completely clean, and only has the factory files04:51
kaieand nothing from me04:51
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crashanddieas long as you don't run the restore-backup tool, it should be clean, yes04:51
kaieI mean, /home/user and file system is completely clean. only some files on the internal memory card04:51
kaiethen it's impossible that I could have fucked up anything04:52
crashanddiehow is that ?04:52
crashanddieI mean, you're obviously feeding something to modest, right ?04:52
crashanddieIt doesn't get its parameters for the connection out of thin air ?04:52
crashanddieI know some of us coders are good, but still, even virgin marry couldn't pull that one04:53
kaieyes, I'm entering them manually, I'm a developer, I understand mail protocols, I'm absolutely sure that I'm entering the settings correctly04:53
crashanddieI don't care if you're a dev, if you understand mail prots or if you fiddle with the NASA shuttle04:54
kaieI haven't fucked it up, but we can agree that modest simply does not work in my ocnfiguration04:54
crashanddiekaie, do you have a GMail account ?04:54
kaiewhatever the cause is04:54
kaiecrashanddie, yes04:55
crashanddietry to connect to it04:55
crashanddiekaie, yes, it is very possible Modest is borked in a way it can't connect to your specific connection settings (especially if they're very specific). But repeating it over and over isn't going to help. I'm sure you can understand that.04:58
elektgmail working?04:58
crashanddieGMail works fine here04:58
kaiegmail imap doesn't work either. ok, I tried to dump all but port 22. I now see that it tries to use dns, but it seems it never gets a response05:01
moontigerwhat kind of gpg key do i need to generate for packaging??05:01
kaiewhich is weird, because the n810 browser succeeds05:01
moontigerkaie, where are you located?05:01
kaielet me try to use some other dns server, rather than the one my home router provides05:01
kaiehome, dsl, nat05:01
kaiegermany, t-online05:03
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moontigerkaie, are you sure you have a good image you are flashing from?05:04
kaiemoontiger, yes, absolutely, checksum verified05:04
moontigersorry to ask dumb questions but you never know05:04
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kaieso, after I changed the dns server of the wireless connection, it immediately works with gmail05:04
kaieI conclude my home router dns server is incompatible with modest's connection attempts, but compatible with the rest of the n81005:05
moontigerso ur router dns server doesnt like the n81005:05
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moontigercrashanddie, can you tell me what kind of pgp / gpg key i need to generate for uploading to extras?05:06
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crashanddiekaie, my usual arrogant self would conclude something else05:08
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crashanddiemoontiger, RSA05:09
moontigerok cool05:10
crashanddiemoontiger, oh wait05:10
crashanddiemoontiger, the SSH key needs to be RSA05:10
crashanddiemoontiger, I think the PGP key isn't important, i'd pick the one you can do everything with05:11
moontigerim so confused with all this :|05:11
moontigeri have an ssh key and an rsa pgp key now05:11
moontigerhope thats enough05:11
crashanddieyou got a garage invitation ?05:11
kaieand with that dns changed, the connection to my own server works, too05:13
crashanddiekaie, happy you got it to work05:14
moontigercrashanddie, what a dogs dinner of a website that is!! there is no "ssh keys" section05:15
moontigerthink i'll just host on my own server and be done with it05:15
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crashanddiemoontiger, please, don't05:15
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moontigerare there any docs that actually are correct??05:16
crashanddiemoontiger, you can add your (public) SSH key there05:16
moontigererrrrrrrr where?? i dont see it05:17
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moontigeroh wait ... i havent had the invite back yet ... cant even upload keys without that ... great05:19
rm_youthe key submission page needs EXAMPLES05:24
rm_youso you at least know the format to put05:24
rm_youI tried and failed to submit my keys like 15 times05:24
rm_youhad to get at least one extra invite from actually getting it to succeed with incorrect input05:25
rm_youit's like a random guessing game figuring out what to put in those boxes05:25
moontigeryah it really needs some work ... or people wont use it05:26
moontigeri mean if developers cant work out how to use a web site something needs to be made a little clearer no?05:27
moontigeronce i work it out i dont mind helping write better pages to explain it05:27
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moontigerhow long does the invite take? i feel like im waiting for godot :|05:35
GeneralAntillesWithout X-Fade around?05:35
GeneralAntillesLonger than usual.05:35
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GeneralAntillesrm_you, feel free to improve:05:36
GeneralAntillesI will remember one of these days!05:36
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rm_youhow can I improve it? I *STILL* don't understand exactly what is supposed to go in those fields05:36
rm_youX-Fade or someone who knows what is going on needs to just post some sample formatting data05:37
crashanddie_improve what ?05:37
crashanddie_what fields ? Lol05:37
crashanddie_anyway, almost 4AM05:39
crashanddie_I'm out05:39
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emmamaemo ♥ one of my favorite channels. How are you guys?05:42
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moontigerGeneralAntilles, when will xfade be unfading?05:50
kaiehi emma, fine, you?05:51
emmacool :)05:53
* moontiger *really* doesnt like making icons and such for software 06:03
pupniki do06:04
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Andrewfblack_Khertan_n810 you here?06:20
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GeneralAntillesmoontiger, whenever he gets back from vacation06:23
GeneralAntillesMaybe a week or two.06:23
GeneralAntillesDon't remember06:23
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GeneralAntillesmoontiger, September 6th.
moontigerGeneralAntilles, ok thnx ... so no go til then right?06:26
GeneralAntillesmoontiger, I dunno who he delegated invite processing to06:27
GeneralAntillesYou could either hit -developers06:27
GeneralAntillesor maybe poke Ed Bartosh directly.06:27
moontigerwhere would i find those?06:27
moontigerpupnik, you like making icons and such?06:27
GeneralAntilles~maemo-lists is
infobotGeneralAntilles: okay06:28
GeneralAntillesEd's email should be pretty easy to find06:28 or similar.06:28
pupnikmoontiger: i'm not pro at it but i like pixel twiddling yes06:28
moontigerwant to make some icons for my applet? :)06:28
moontigerGeneralAntilles, i can email ed directly?06:29
* GeneralAntilles can't decide if he wants to start making the Maemo branding changeover on the site slowly or whole-hog once people get back from vacation. . . .06:29
GeneralAntillesmoontiger, sure.06:29
moontigerok thnx06:29
moontigerGeneralAntilles, ok i emailed him ... why hasnt he written me back already?06:31
* moontiger grins06:31
GeneralAntillesBecause he hates you06:31
GeneralAntillesa lot06:31
moontigeroh :(06:31
moontigeroh well ... tomorrow is another day!06:32
GeneralAntillesIt'll take at least 6 hours for the boiling rage to simmer down. ;)06:32
moontigerwow that means i could go out and mingle with the humans.... weird06:32
GeneralAntillesHumans are dirty things.06:34
* GeneralAntilles fixes XHTML compliance issues along with the typos and lame grammar.06:36
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* moontiger shudders06:41
moontigernaaaaa i'll stay home and geek ... friday night is bridge and tunnel brigade night anyways06:41
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* GeneralAntilles wonders why he's doing work that people who are actually getting paid should be doing. . . . :P06:47
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andre____heh. open source...06:54
GeneralAntillesandre____, just getting home or just getting up? :P06:55
andre____just got home :)06:55
andre____i don't get up at 6AM, really ;-)06:55
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* GeneralAntilles only does when he sleep schedule happens to wander around that way.06:55
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andre____schedule? come on, we're young! :-P06:56
andre____just need to catch my train in five hours, and my flight later on...06:56
andre____will work out, somehoe06:57
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* moontiger wanders off looking for icons...06:58
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GeneralAntillesThere are "<p>\n</p>"'s in here instead of <br/>. . . .07:24
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GeneralAntillesWow, no newlines at all in this one. . . .07:40
GeneralAntillesWhoever put together this page: needs to either be fired or stop doing things drunk.07:48
GeneralAntillesThere's a bunch of completely arbitrary elements here07:50
GeneralAntillesand random \t's07:50
GeneralAntillesand random empty comments07:50
GeneralAntillesand hard-wrapped text where all the hardwrapping \n's were removed.07:50
GeneralAntillesThis is cool: <blockquote></blockquote>07:52
arachnistGeneralAntilles: at least it's not <blockquote />07:58
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GeneralAntillesarachnist, atleast. :\08:02
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GeneralAntilles"<blockquote><ul><p>   \n<br/>\t</ul></blockquote>"08:03
GeneralAntillesWhy? . . .08:03
GeneralAntillesThe <blockquote>'s are used instead of <br/>'s in some places.08:07
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pupnikmaybe not everyone knows proper html08:37
GeneralAntillespupnik, fair enough, but did you SEE the page?08:41
GeneralAntillesThere are limits to the acceptability of the "but I didn't know!" excuse08:41
GeneralAntillesand those limits were most certainly breached here.08:42
pupnikok will look - i'm a bit caught up with trying to figure out how to stay alive in 2009 atm08:42
GeneralAntillesBesides, you'd figure that Nokia would have pride enough in their work to be able to generate a few pages of at least PASSABLE HTML.08:42
GeneralAntillesDoesn't matter, it's all gone now. ;)08:42
pupnikeww ok08:43
GeneralAntillesThe world's ending in December, anyway.08:43
GeneralAntillesSo it doesn't matter.08:43
RST38hwhat's in december?08:43
GeneralAntillesAn arbitrary date. Isn't that how all the doomsday predictor do it? :P08:43
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: An arbitrary date. Isn't that how all the doomsday predictors do it? :P08:43
RST38husually, you have to tie it to an event08:43
RST38hLike "the day they fire up the LHC" or "the day Apple finally gets bought by Microsoft"08:44
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pupnikOK, naive LHC question.  I've read 1) LHC will accelerate counter-rotating particles to close to the speed of light.  and 2) the energies produced will be lower than cosmic rays hitting the earth.  but if cosmic rays don't travel faster than the speed of light, and the relative collision speed of the LHC particles is close to 2c... how is that possible?08:58
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pupnikok #physics helped me out :)09:11
moontigerpupnik, what was the answer?09:12
pupnikrelativistically, the opposing beams do not see each other as approaching with 2c09:13
pupnikor ~2c09:13
arachnistobviously they could not see each other09:14
pupnikdo you have a pet tarantula by chance?09:16
moontigeris that because c is an absolute?09:25
arachnistC is an absolute. There's also asm, but C is more absolute ;)09:26
moontigerha de ha ha ;)09:26
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RST38hpupnik: energy of a particle is mv^2/209:38
RST38hpupnik: energy of a photon is hf09:38
RST38hpupnik: notice that the second formula does not contain the speed at all while the first formula also contains m09:38
inzRST, _kinetic_ energy of a particle09:39
RST38halso, even "relative" speed cannot exceed c09:39
RST38hinz: mv^2/309:39
RST38hsorry, /209:39
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moontigerso it has the hardware ... juts no drivers to use it10:35
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Pavlz-1do you remember ?10:39
Pavlz-1last night i nnounced that the charger battery of my nokia 770 cracked10:39
Pavlz-1and i have not one anymore ?10:39
Pavlz-1i toke a charger of ericsson of cell phone k60810:40
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Pavlz-1cutted the shell10:40
Pavlz-1after i toke the circuit and i unmount the cables of sony ericsson and i mounted the nokia 770 cables10:41
moontigerdid it work?10:41
Pavlz-1without any problem10:41
moontigernice work! :)10:42
Pavlz-1it is charging the battery10:42
Pavlz-1the sony ericsson works to 4.9 volt to 850 mA10:42
Pavlz-1the nokia to 5 volt to 890 mA10:42
moontigerthats great ... one less wasted fone charger in the world and one less charger needed for 770 :)10:43
arachnistyou know10:43
arachnistyou can boot of n800 using se k800i battery10:43
Pavlz-1it is the same10:43
arachnistthough you have to hold it, cause it's a lot smaller10:44
Pavlz-1i used a k608i10:44
Pavlz-1it is the 60810:44
Pavlz-1i for italy10:44
qwerty12i is for international actually10:44
qwerty12c is for China10:44
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Pavlz-1there isnot any differece10:44
arachnistwell, italy isn't everywhere10:44
arachnistas opposed to what some script kiddies on ircnet would want to belive10:44
Pavlz-1i got the k608, it broken the lcd 70 euro10:45
Pavlz-1so used the carger of my mom10:45
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Pavlz-1qwerty12 are you in China ?10:46
qwerty12Pavlz-1: No, London. But I used to mod Sony Ericsson phones so I know about them10:47
moontigeri used to live in london10:47
arachnistse phones are cool10:47
arachnistmodable, hackable10:47
Pavlz-1no necessity to buy a new charger10:48
Pavlz-130 euro in Italy10:48
Pavlz-144,3610 dollars10:49
pupnikeuro 24 in berlin @ linuxtag10:49
pupniki thought that was expensive10:49
pupnikwow look at the metals markets10:49
Pavlz-1in pound 23,953710:50
qwerty12That's a con, I bought a new genuine nokia charger for my N800 recently, £5.50 including Postage and VAT10:50
Pavlz-1only for a charger10:50
pupniknice qwerty1210:50
qwerty12Thanks :)10:50
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qwerty12Pavlz-1: Yeah, wow, that is a lot. £5.50 =  6.90064 EUR10:51
qwerty12Of course, if I'd have known I still had the old nokia charger type (the plug that fits on the N-Gage and 3310 for example), I'd have just bought an adapter. I much prefer the old charger.10:53
Pavlz-1i am doing with financial yahoo10:53
Pavlz-1the conversion10:53
qwerty12Ah, I'm using xe10:53
Pavlz-1in italy all is more expensive then 5 times10:53
qwerty12Sigh, British burglars :(10:53
Pavlz-1this is the example for a charger 5,50 pound10:54
Pavlz-1in italy the same 30 euro10:54
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Pavlz-1Itsly is more expensive than England10:55
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qwerty12Heh, my sister is always on about how the UK is expensive for stuff :D10:56
moontigerKhertan_n810, does adding transparency to the apps make them heavier and slower?10:56
qwerty12I'll tell her about Italy :D10:56
Pavlz-1but Berlusconi says : all is ok !!!!10:56
Pavlz-1it is a Buffon !!!!10:56
moontigerberlusconi.... pah!10:57
doc|homeI've lived in Italy, rent is cheap10:57
doc|homeand yes, he's a tool10:57
Pavlz-1where you lived in Italy to find cheap rent ?10:57
Pavlz-1is possible10:58
Pavlz-1why in Rome is all more expensive10:58
doc|homewhere are you from?10:58
doc|homeah, yeah10:58
moontigerPavlz-1, where in italy are you?10:58
doc|homebut prettier girls :)10:58
doc|homeI'd guess...10:58
moontigerive een there a couple of times10:58
moontigerbeen too10:58
Pavlz-1i prefeer strangers10:58
doc|homegirls from torino were purdy10:58
Pavlz-1they give more easy10:59
doc|homecan't say I had that experience :( speaking no Italian is annoying :)10:59
moontigerPavlz-1, like the german tourists you mean?10:59
Pavlz-1yes, polish10:59
Pavlz-1german wow11:00
Pavlz-1very expert in sex11:00
moontigervery precise and efficient11:01
Pavlz-1i see you know11:01
moontigerhehe i lived in milano for a little while11:02
Pavlz-1there are german girls ?11:02
moontigerthey would come for the holidays in the summer11:02
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Pavlz-1very interesting11:02
Pavlz-1i could left the chat to start and to go in Milan to search German girls11:03
* moontiger laughs11:03
moontigeri have to go to ed now i think ... its getting late11:03
arachnistgerman girls?11:03
moontigered = bed11:03
* arachnist laughs11:03
Pavlz-1what time is it ?11:04
moontigerlaterz :)11:04
moontigerits 1am11:04
arachnistmoontiger: you want to go to bed with ed?11:04
moontigerhahaha not really11:04
Pavlz-1here in italy 10:04 a.m11:04
moontigerim in san francisco11:04
arachnistmoontiger: you prefer tables? :>11:04
Pavlz-1lucky you11:04
* arachnist stops it11:04
moontigerim moving to madrid at the the end of the year11:05
Pavlz-1 too spanish are very precise11:05
moontigerarachnist, im easy ... floors tables beds chairs ... its all good ;)11:05
Pavlz-1and efficients11:05
moontigeryeah im missing europe i think :)11:05
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Pavlz-1it 's late for me i stay up all the night11:06
Pavlz-1i go to sleep11:06
moontigermaybe u need some sleep too?11:06
Pavlz-18 hours11:06
moontigersee you again maybe .... ciao :)11:06
Pavlz-16 p.m. i am here11:06
Pavlz-16 p.m. Italy11:07
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Pavlz-1just a think11:07
Pavlz-1could you suggest me a client sip for my deb ?11:07
Pavlz-1ekiga don't like me11:07
Pavlz-1gnomenetmeeting does not work, it say that don't find the sound blaster of my notebook11:08
Pavlz-1which can i install ?11:09
Pavlz-1could i install ?11:09
arachnists/[ ]\?/?/g11:09
Pavlz-1what ?11:10
arachnistthe proper way of saying "don't put spaces in front of '?'"11:10
* qwerty12 doesn't speak sed11:10
* arachnist does. in real life too.11:11
Pavlz-1asterisk ?11:11
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Stskeepsqwerty12: i booted deblet from a file yesterday.. worst.. hack.. of.. my .. life11:32
qwerty12Ouch. You mean from an image?11:32
* qwerty12 hates images11:32
qwerty12The speed is horrible >.<11:32
Stskeepsactually wasnt that bad initially, but yeah11:33
Stskeepsi made installer so people can debootstrap and install onto a image11:33
Stskeepsand it adds a boot menu item that allows people to boot in11:33
Stskeepsmain challenge.. busybox 1.0.0 in initfs does not support loopback :>11:33
qwerty12Unless you can get a uclibc toolchain, you won't be making a new version :)11:34
Stskeepsso i put a busybox with only mount enabled on the FAT filesystem, mount it without noexec, run a linuxrc on the fat filesystem that mounts the image file11:34
qwerty12That reminds me, remember what you said about stracing programs on initfs?11:34
Stskeepsand the linuxrc then mount -o remount,noexec /mnt/new_root11:34
qwerty12It's not really accurate, the strace is using glibc while programs in initfs use uclibc, I think someone already said that on bugzilla and then that was said11:35
qwerty12cool :)11:35
Stskeepsqwerty12: ltrace was better than strace i think11:35
Stskeepsin this manner11:35
qwerty12ah, ok11:36
Stskeepsbut what i made makes it possible to make a "Easy Debian" with a image file, "Simple" mode where it builds a .img file and debootstraps onto it - so people can hybrid both boot into it and chroot into it11:37
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qwerty12Hmm, I like the idea. But I'd personally prefer it to be left as it is and the chroot guys to chroot from a block partition11:38
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qwerty12Even with Android, it ran much faster off a proper partition11:38
Stskeepsyeah, that's the best choice really11:38
Stskeepsand that's what i would recommend myself11:38
Stskeepsbut some want to try out debian "easily" without re-partitioning and all that jaz11:39
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qwerty12yeah, true, I guess that's one of the reasons chroot appeals to them :/11:39
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Stskeepsalso i had to include mknod /dev/loop0 stuff in initfs installer :P11:40
Stskeepssince it was missing loopback device11:40
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qwerty12Yeah, I've wondered how it was looped, it misses tools like losetup etc.11:41
Stskeepsmagic :>
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qwerty12I'm wary about installing your initfs :)11:44
Stskeepsi understand that.. yesterday i found out that if you had -two- boot items, it would not show any11:44
Stskeepsso i had to fix that11:44
Stskeeps(it still showed internal flash)11:44
Stskeepsbut i think i've ironed out the bugs now11:44
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qwerty12crap, an alias better work.11:46
* qwerty12 is trying to get "g++-4.2"11:46
qwerty12I've got g++ which --version says it's 4.2.3 but when I symlink it, stupid sb_wrapper won't recognise it >.<11:47
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qwerty12~curse scratchbox11:47
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, scratchbox !11:47
qwerty12~curse infobot for crap curses11:47
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, infobot for crap curses !11:47
Stskeepsqwerty12: so what other mods do you have in your initfs?11:48
Stskeepsother than the logo stuff11:48
qwerty12Stskeeps: relatively, not much. I keep an bootmenu.conf with a quite a few entries, I make the bootmenu black so my eyes only kill for one second, keep modules for framebuffer, I've replaced most of the modules with my own ones compiled from a preempt kernel designed to match the kernel I have flashed, I fix the show_rd_versions so that booting from ... doesn't get rid of it, I make rd_versions show all the time regardless if I have rd_mode t11:51
qwerty12urned off :P11:51
liridid bef0rd share with anyone his experience of getting pykaraoke_mini to work on the n810?11:52
qwerty12Atm, I'm messing around and seeing if I can get the mtdblock4 to be mounted over usb11:52
liriwe both started working on it but he tried it first on the n810 itself while I was checking it in scratchbox11:52
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qwerty12Stskeeps: what I really want to do though is get a uClibc 0.9.28 toolchain so that I can compile mtd-tools for initfs and be able to dump and restore my rootfs from the bootmenu11:55
Stskeepsi thought about loadable .imgs from SD as a possibility to extend initfs as well11:56
Stskeepssuch as dropbear.img or parted.img or whatever11:56
qwerty12Yeah, I like the sound of that11:57
lcukqwerty, what time is it11:57
Stskeepsbut that's a bit disturbed by the fact busybox doesnt do loopback11:57
qwerty12lcuk: around 10:00 AM11:57
lcukthats what i thought, nokia flasher is telling me its wrong11:58
qwerty12lcuk: someone had that problem on the itt forums, I can't remember where though11:58
Stskeeps-but- it would be possible to have a linuxrc boot item that is "Recovery tools" that starts up /media/mmc1/linuxrc.recovery for instance11:58
Stskeepsthat then can supplement with recovery image11:58
lcukgreat - it waits until device is plugged in before downloading the firmware11:58
Stskeepssince linuxrc runs inside initfs11:59
qwerty12lcuk: go on tablets-dev and grab the firmware manually. and then flash it in linux :>11:59
lcukoh ffs, i just set internet time, and its knocked clock back to 9am11:59
lcuk42seconds left..11:59
lcukenglish time keeping fails11:59
liriI got myself a micro sd adapter for the n810, would both micro sd and micro sdhc are supposed to work with it?12:00
lcukit was all in sync before12:00
lcuki hope diablo is stable12:00
GAN800liri, formactor doesn't affect the standard.12:00
GAN800SDHC is SDHC is SDHC12:00
qwerty12Hmm, maybe I'm hoping here, but is there a tool that can get information about a lib file? Hex editor isn't helping me here :/12:01
liriGAN800: well I'm just not familiar with these things so I was wondering. no idea what's the HC is supposed to mean either12:01
Stskeepsqwerty12: nm -D12:01
GAN800high capacity12:01
lcukqwerty12, what are you aiming for? strings type things or details of a jump table or something?12:01
qwerty12Stskeeps: Thanks :)12:02
qwerty12lcuk: more about strings, I want to find the exact version of uclibc used12:02
liriGAN800: but does it mean that the internal structure of the micro sdhc card itself is different or something?12:02
lcukahhh k12:02
qwerty12if nokia are being assholes about it, I'll compile my own12:02
GAN800liri, forget the formactor. Micro and Mini aren't relevant.12:03
GAN800SDHC just addresses larger blocks.12:03
lcukam i safe to restore from a chinook backup?12:04
GAN800lcuk, unless you did some funky stuff.12:04
lcukno, but my networking was broken last night12:04
lcukoh shat! i cant build packages without a whole hassle12:04
GAN800Well, restore and see if it works12:04
GAN800if not, reflash and don't restore.12:05
qwerty12lcuk: remember to use diablo sdk repo now :>12:05
lcuki just need to confirm networking works - it broke yesterday12:06
RST38hmoo all12:08
qwerty12Bollocks, I don't know the exact config used by nokia regarding uclibc. I'm tempted to "make randconfig"   Use random values for all options."12:08
qwerty12Hey RST38h12:08
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RST38hNobody is downloading MasterGear =)12:09
RST38h45 downloads, weird12:09
RST38hfile from the homepage has clocked a 1000+12:09
Stskeepsqwerty12: how difficult would it be to make something akin personal menu that gets stuff from Debian menu system?12:09
Stskeepslike, automatically12:10
qwerty12no idea, sorry12:10
* qwerty12 checks logs for CFLAGS, i'm pretty sure we have a "Arm 1136JF-S "12:10
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* Stskeeps watches another debootstrap onto a file12:20
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lbtmorning all12:20
* qwerty12 compiles kernel-source-diablo again. didn't realise clibc would be linked against it12:22
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* lbt got permission to put deblet on his tablet this weekend :D12:23
lbtafter I've done my chores... :(12:23
pupnikwhat does deblet do?12:24
Stskeepspupnik: it's basically a deriative of debian for the tablets, with support packages to support the tablet features/bugs12:24
Stskeepsit bases fully on debian and adds some things12:24
Stskeepswe just can't call it debian for obvious reasons12:24
pupnikI wonder if polishing up gp2x UAE and SNES and uploading to extras will yield fame, fortune and the adoration of millions of groupies?12:25
Stskeepshehe. or decrease worldwide productivity ;)12:25
lbtd'oh, rapid response plumbing... l8r12:26 navigation is screwed up12:26
RST38htoo much javascript, I guess12:26
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qwerty12Stskeeps: Do you have usb networking in initfs and some time? :)13:08
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lcukqwerty12, :) its easier this time round to install everything, im even documenting it as i go to hopefully let others dev on device ;)13:31
qwerty12lcuk: heh, great :). I may set up an dev environment on mmc boot. Although I'd set it up properly (i.e removing busybox)13:33
lcukyer, still a bit far for me, but at least after this ill know i can install on my own :)13:34
lcuki think the only tricky thing remaining is buildpackage but even thats not gonna be so difficult13:35
qwerty12Despite not being a fan of it on the tablets, I should learn python. I keep hearing about how it's a good powerful language for beginners (or n00bs like me!)13:35
lcukits good as glue if you want to use that from over there with this from over here13:35
qwerty12lcuk: yeah, do your modification to that file and install a gnu version of that tool I think13:35
lcuktheres a whole stream of files which need handling and modifying13:36
qwerty12I think what would be easier on that front was making a deb file that will install the tools needed under different names and getting the preinst to run sed on a bunch of file to change them automatically13:36
lcukim wondering if it would be worth documenting the patch and repackaging it, but since its only for me im not sure it will be worth it13:36
qwerty12heh :)13:37
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lcukwell :) liqbase has now completely rebuilt and run from source13:37
qwerty12Stskeeps: ping. I lied about usb networking, only chroot to initfs is needed :D :)13:37
lcukand im over ssh and i have root and all that, its easier this time round ;)13:37
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qwerty12Yeah, ssh is a lifesaver13:39
qwerty12When the tablet refuses to unmount its memory cards and let me mount them over usb, all I have to do is scp to /media/mmc213:40
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RST38hhey, lcuk, I have not installed liqbase for a while, what is new in it? =)13:56
RST38h(the one I installed was just a demo)13:56
lcuknothing released :) but lots new, you will have to wait13:57
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pupnikgeek humor (yet again)  8-bit C64 Sid Rick Rolling14:19
pupnikfeel free to tell me to can it if the offtopicness annoys any of you14:20
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crashanddiejott, Ed bartosch told me to feck off :D14:35
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lcukpupnik, human humour
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kkrustyI got a n810 yesterday and I just tried using a microsd card with a minisd card coverter. The n810 wasnt responding so I pulled out the battery and put it back again. Now nothing is working14:43
LinuxCodesounds fishy14:45
LinuxCodeworks perfectly fine here14:45
kkrustyIts not turning on14:45
msh_is it new from a shop? sounds like a refund job.14:46
LinuxCodecould be a battery/power fault14:46
kkrustyordered it from play.com14:46
LinuxCodethats where i got mine from hehe14:46
lcukkkrusty, with it all switched off, plug the charger in and see what happens14:46
LinuxCodemust still be the cheapest14:46
LinuxCodehey lcuk14:47
lcukhi LinuxCode :)14:47
LinuxCodeim back in the uk again14:47
lcuklife being good to you?14:47
LinuxCodewell ..lol14:47
kkrustyalready did that14:47
LinuxCodewrong question...14:47
lcukand what happens14:47
LinuxCodei thought i told you14:47
kkrustylcuk: nothing :(14:47
LinuxCodemy dad passed away end of june..been abroad sorting stuff out14:47
lcukkkrusty, check the plug you are using works..14:48
LinuxCodebeen a nightmare14:48
lcukbah LinuxCode :(14:48
LinuxCodepaperwork still ongoing14:48
LinuxCodeat least the flat is cleared14:48
kkrustylcuk: the charger is fine14:49
kkrustyjust checked it with a mobile phone14:49
lcukdid you replace the battery correctly?14:49
LinuxCodecould be the battery14:49
lcukwith charger in what happens when you press and hold power14:49
LinuxCodenever tried if it works without14:49
lcukit doesnt14:49
lcuki have the charger in most times i end up popping battery14:50
LinuxCodethought it wouldnt14:50
lcukit just dies14:50
kkrustylcuk: nothing14:50
LinuxCodekkrusty, send it back14:50
lcukwarranty replacement time :)14:50
lcukremove the memory card though first14:50
lcukand check it again14:50
kkrustylcuk: Im trying it without the memory card14:51
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thuxcan all os2008 versions use same repositories from gronmayer page?15:07
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pupnik_os2008 programs tend to work on os2008 OS15:17
pupnik_did that answer your question thux ?15:18
t_s_oseems i have bumped into someone else that have issues with vanishing emails. but getting that person add to a bug report, hmm...15:19
pupnik_vanishing from device? or not getting transferred from pop15:26
thuxpupnik_: yes suppose so just wondered if diablo any diffrent than first os2008 release15:26
pupnik_ah ok, i don't know about diablo compatibility problems, if any (sorry)15:27
pupnik_"Things are going to get much, much worse." - River Tam15:27
lcukriver tam is the kinda girl you want fighting on your team15:33
pupnik_Curse you Fox Broadcasting!  We hatesss it!  We hatess it forevaaah!15:33
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pupnik_would have been so much better if it had run a couple of years instead of having the whole plot arc compressed to a 2 hr movie15:34
* lcuk . o O ( nights with kaylee )15:34
pupnik_you can have River.  Kaylee is MINE!15:34
lcukpolitely pupnik_ feck off, shes mine!    mwah ahh ahhh ahhhh15:35
lcukwhen did you get round to watching it, as broadcast or recently?15:36
* pupnik_ offers his favorite gun, 'Vera' for Kaylee15:36
pupnik_what's your favorite episode lcuk15:36
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lcuki have trouble with names, i had ep numbers and they all kinda blended into one15:37
pupnik_it'd have to be 'Ariel' for me, i think.  Followed in no particular order by Jaynestown, and Out Of Gas15:38
RST38hWhy has the subject of Firefly come up?15:39
pupnik_because it is always and forever appropriate and awesome15:39
pupnik_actually i quoted River after reviewing economic indicators...15:39
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RST38hOh, there is a better quote about those...15:42
RST38hLemme look it up15:42
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RST38h"...and, like all precious things placed in harm's way, it got destroyed."15:48
BinkyAnyone can tell me how to solve this?15:49
BinkyI had an error in my /var/lib/dpkg/status15:50
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pupnik_i forgot... is there a backup status file in there Binky ?15:51
BinkyYeah, there is15:51
pupnik_you can diff them to find the error15:51
pupnik_or at least i did15:51
BinkyI backuped status file, but the old is all corrupted...15:51
BinkyI don't know how to fix the final newline15:52
BinkyAny idea?15:54
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pupnik_grmbl.  no15:57
pupnik_open the file in vi and add a newline?15:57
t_s_osorry pupnik_, i missed your question as you didnt trigger my nick recognition. anyways. here is the bug:
t_s_oand now, dinner15:58
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pupnik_merci beaucoups16:06
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lcukX-Fade, welcome back :D16:16
lcukdon't ever go away again :|16:17
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Binkypupknik_, i already tried that16:17
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GeneralAntillesthux, forget gronmayer16:55
GeneralAntillesThose repositories, by and large, will screw up your device16:55
GeneralAntillesYou need two repositories, Extras and Extras-devel.16:55
RaytrayOh so that advice you gave me way back when sucked. :(16:55
LinuxCodea good way to never get help again16:56
lcukGeneralAntilles, :) i have diablo now, and i made notes about what it took to get gcc on device and building again :)16:57
GeneralAntillesRaytray, advice changes over time.16:58
GeneralAntillesWhat's useful 6 months ago is not the same thing that's useful now.16:58
RaytrayHehe. Give me a sec to blindly wander around looking for the repo list to edit.16:58
lcukRaytray, there are now established quality control procedures in place which make the maemo experience better if you stick to the default repos16:59
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MekI don't think any quality control procedures are in place for extras-devel? :P16:59
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lcukits been made simpler than ever to get your code into maemo and ensure it will be there even when your fly-by-night repo dies16:59
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lcukTHATS why the advice has changed ;)17:00
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* pupnik_ coughs politely 17:01
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RaytrayHeh, I sound less grouchy next time I'm joking around then.17:01
lcukits ok, i hadnt realised *why* it was a good idea myself until then17:01
RaytrayThough, silly question: How do I build the db for locate?17:02
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RaytrayAh thanks.17:07
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RST38hlcuk: If you mean the builder as being "simpler than ever"...17:08
* RST38h cackles evilly17:08
lcukat least you know once you comeo ut the other side you have a package capable of working17:08
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RST38h[thanks god and Xfade, non-free binary uploads still work though]17:09
RST38hlcuk: capable of compiling, not working ;)17:09
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GeneralAntillesRaytray, alternative answer. I was setting you up for fail. :P17:19
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RaytrayAre extras and extras dev in gronmayer?17:21
RaytrayIf so, I'll just have to figure out which one those are and remove the rest.17:21
infobotrumour has it, extras is
GeneralAntillesFBReader is even in Extras now17:21
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LinuxCodeId love to see amsn in there too17:24
LinuxCodeand xchat17:24
GeneralAntillesXChat is in Extras-devel17:25
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GeneralAntillesPoke stupid packagers to submit their stuff.17:25
RST38hOne more push and we will see it in Extras?17:28
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zapxchat has too many packages17:35
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zapimho we should think of a way for an alternative packaging of NLS stuff17:35
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, mgedmin is gonna do a few more packaging improvements17:37
GeneralAntilleslike culling the million and one localization packages.17:37
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zapMaemo should have something like localepurge17:38
zapany volunteers to write one, with a control panel applet for setup?17:38
LinuxCodeyep ..you17:38
LinuxCodeI just volunteered you for the position17:38
zapI have so much packages to do yet :)17:39
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lbtoh - Canola is not opensource17:44
lbtI didn't realise17:44
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lbtI'm miffed - it won't scan my nfs mounts so I was trying to get the source to go in and fix it...17:46
lbtjust grrr17:46
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GeneralAntilleslbt, lightmediascanner17:46
GeneralAntillesIt's just the front-end and media server that's closed17:47
GeneralAntilles90% of the bulk of what makes "Canola" is open source.17:47
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GeneralAntillesBlame retarded management.17:47
lbtshame - the fancy front end is worth building on17:47
lbtI was thinking of extending it to do other stuff17:47
GeneralAntillesJust don't blame the developers.17:47
RST38hzap: AFAIK, you only need one17:48
GeneralAntillesThey've contributed more open source stuff to Maemo than just about anybody.17:48
RST38hzap: Others are translations17:48
lbtOK - that's nice to know :)17:48
melmothi have a piece of code that create a picture that takes time to make with cairo. i would like to compute it on a a separate thread, and give back something to a pygtk drawing area to display.17:48
melmothany idea what the 'something' format should be ?17:48
RST38hBTW, anybody installed latest Pidgin from Collabora?17:48
RST38hThe one that comes with 20+MB of crap?17:49
lcukmelmoth, offscreen bitmap.  then blit it onscreen when you are done?17:49
melmothi m not sure what a offscreen bitmap is. I can have it on a numeri array, but then i do not know how to render it on the gtk drawing area17:50
lcuka bitmap is an array of pixels representing a rectangular area of visible screen..17:51
lbtStskeeps: you here? I want to install deblet. My main system runs diablo via multiboot from the external mmc. I have a spare 2gb partition - what's the best way? :D17:51
melmothlcuk: i have access to an array represnrting the picture, but then. i m stuck as i have no idea how to use this in the gtk drawarea17:53
lcukthis is not the kind of question that can be answered in irc, read up about gtk drawing areas and how to access and modify the data17:54
lcukyou already know your problem17:54
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AStormRST38h: does your nick refer to the nice DOS call to reset the machine? ;P17:57
qwerty12~lart my sister for sleeping for ages and ages and ages and having my charger delivered in her name so I can't open it17:57
* infobot DoSes my sister for sleeping for ages and ages and ages and having my charger delivered in her name so I can't open it17:57
RST38hAStorm: No.17:57
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qwerty12"F5  RST38H              ;- something like a esc-funktion - quit to monitor when ever a keyboard-funtion is called and this key is pressed, then manchine-code 0xff==RST38h will be executed (jumps to address 0x38)"17:58
AStormAmiga... ouch17:58
RST38hRST38h is Z80. Also 8080, where it was known as RST717:59
AStormindeed, Z-8017:59
qwerty12"EXECUTE TEST: In this test, the entire RAM is written with Z-80 RST38H (0FFH)17:59
qwerty12instructions. Then a block of machine code is written to the bottom of the test17:59
qwerty12area and an attempt is made to execute it. If the attempt is successful, the17:59
qwerty12block is moved up one address and a new attempt is made to execute it. This17:59
qwerty12continues until all available RAM has been tested. If the Z-80 should encounter17:59
qwerty12one of the RST38H instructions instead of the expected code, it will jump to17:59
qwerty12location 38H then branch to a special error-handling routine. While the test is17:59
qwerty12running, screen messages will indicate the address of the current test block,17:59
qwerty12and which loop (0-3) is running."17:59
AStorm /kb qwerty1217:59
RST38hIt is an interrupt vector, really17:59
AStormRST38h: sure17:59
lbthe sure types quick...17:59
qwerty12if only...17:59
RST38hThe reason why RST38h was used was because it opcode (0xFF) corresponds to the "floating" bus17:59
qwerty12ffs, I want to charge my N800 so I can test an initfs binary >.<18:00
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RST38hSo you did not need the interrupt controller (8259 or its like)18:00
lbtqwerty12: doesn't a new standard nokia charger work?18:01
lcukquestion to all: which optimisations do you use, which appear to give best results?18:01
lbtlcuk: perl18:01
lcukgcc opts actually ;)18:01
qwerty12lbt: yeah, I ordered one in my sisters name (too young for a credit card) except its failing as she is still sleeping !18:01
lcukqwerty12, is there a chance you have b0rkened it?18:02
AStormqwerty12: :P18:02
AStormbuy one yourself18:02
lbtthey don't sell them for £2 at a local phone shop18:02
AStormbtw, I want AC-5e - the travel charger18:02
AStormit's tiny and supplies the needed 890 mA18:02
lcuki have an emergency charger which takes an AA battery18:03
AStormwho made it?18:03
qwerty12lcuk: I hope not. I messed around a bit (spliced old nokia charger onto new connector) but I tested with another charger and it started up fine18:03
AStormwhat's the max current18:03
AStormqwerty12: yes, it's the same charger18:03
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lcuki got it from the o2 shop, its o2 branded box18:03
AStormactually, AC-4e was made in 3 versions - old 5V plug, new Nokia plug, USB plug18:04
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AStormit's crummy anyway and n8x0 overloads it slightly18:04
* qwerty12 wonders what service manuals say regarding charging18:05
* RST38h is all for the old 5V plug btw18:05
qwerty12RST38h: same here18:05
AStormI'm all for another USB port18:05
RST38hqwerty: "Do not use third party chargers"18:05
RST38hAStrorm: Yes, but micro usb or mini usb?18:05
AStormRST38h: it's a first-party charger18:05
AStormRST38h: obviously mini USB18:05
ShadowJKoverloads it slightly? Surely those chargers are built with current-limitators18:05
AStormas micro USB is nowhere to be found18:05
RST38hmicro usb is way too tiny18:06
AStormShadowJK: which happen to allow for 10% overcurrent18:06
RST38hafaik, micro usb is the new standard in the industry18:06
AStormunused yet18:06
ShadowJKI've charged with a 350mA charger :)18:06
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AStormShadowJK: I tried that too18:06
AStormthat power control chip inside n810 is very flexible18:06
AStormit took some current from battery in that case18:07
AStorm(instead of charging)18:07
ShadowJKEnergizer's 2*AA emergency charger works splendidly too18:07
AStormShadowJK: gimme - link?18:07
ShadowJKfor example18:08
ShadowJKyou get loads of results on google18:08
lcukShadowJK, i wanted a 2 cell version, but all i could find was the single, it slightly annoyed me18:08
AStorm2x AA Lithium = expensive18:08
AStormI want 2x NiMH18:08
ShadowJKIt works on 2 recently charged nimh too18:08
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AStormit'll die due to voltage fall18:09
AStormsure it will18:09
ShadowJKIt cuts off at 1 Volt18:09
AStormLithium is constant voltage18:09
ShadowJKper cell18:09
AStorm1,7V too18:09
AStormper cell18:09
AStormNiMH is 1,4V per cell, average18:09
ShadowJKit just wont fire up at less than 1.37 or something18:10
Kegetys1,2V I thought18:10
AStormKegetys: yes18:10
AStorm1,4V max actually, I failed18:10
ShadowJK"nominal", which in nimh is measured like the median on discharge curve or something...18:10
AStormso, it's unsuitable for NiMH18:10
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AStormit's the voltage in the stable state18:11
AStormnot median :)18:11
AStormmedian would be higher18:11
t_s_osometimes i just have to take my hat of for GeneralAntilles...18:11
ShadowJKI've found 2xAA elsewhere, some that even run down your batteries squeezing everything out of them (bad for nimh), but none that put out as much current as teh energizer18:11
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ShadowJKBut that energizer charger, if it just fires up it runs until 2V, which should eat atleast 75% of the energy in nimh cells18:13
Stskeepslbt: well are you going to use my bootmenu patches?18:14
AStormShadowJK: ok, the real question is: where can I get these nice Maxims I found at quantity18:14
ShadowJKnice maxims? :)18:14
AStormALL places that had them disappeared or are out of stock18:14
AStormShadowJK: MAX17xx family18:15
Stskeepslbt: easiest way is really just getting the .install files from
AStormthis is the one18:15
qwerty12lmao, I think maxim as in magazine....18:15
AStormqwerty12: no no, the microchip producer18:15
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qwerty12yeah, just joking :)18:16
AStorm - better link18:16
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AStormtell me where can I get these in 10s18:17
AStormnot 1000s18:17
usicowIs anyone familiar with problems with Android on OS 2008? I installed it as per but when I click on the Android icon in extras I see the CPU spike for a while but nothing happens.18:17
ShadowJKI've run into availability problems everytime I've had the idea of  building my own, too :)18:18
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AStormShadowJK: I scrapped *one* such chip from an old cell-phone18:18
ShadowJKin the end I just disassembled a generic cigarette plug charger and made it run on 8 nimh18:19
AStorm8 NiMH is huge18:21
AStormI'd rather build a large Li-Poly battery in that case18:21
AStormI'm thinking like 2x NiMH18:21
AStormah, I see18:21
ShadowJKget 2 1-cell and tape them together? :)18:21
AStormMaxim phased these nice family of chips out18:21
AStormnow MAX170xx is the rage18:22
AStormbut it has a bit too small range18:22
t_s_oon topic of small chargers:
Stskeepslbt: i'm rewriting installation guide right now to match the new way18:23
* ShadowJK finds max 1771 available in scandinavia18:23
qwerty12If someone wants to test something for me, grab this, chmod +x it and remount initfs rw and shove that binary and then chroot to /mnt/initfs and tell me if initfs-test runs from the initfs please. Thank you.18:23
* qwerty12 would do it but I'm chargerless! The binary is harmless, just displays a message18:24
AStorm*bit too small input range that is18:24
AStormt_s_o: it's Li-Ion based18:24
AStormwhich means I can't grab batteries anywhere ;P18:25
t_s_oone of them are, the other can take two AA's18:25
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t_s_ospecifically the pocket charger18:25
AStormit's made by Xantrex18:26
AStormit must be good18:26
AStormMaximum charging current  0.5 A - too low18:27
t_s_obut iirc, nokia have a combo device thats called DC-8 or something like that. it can take batteries, but also have a built in li-ion cell18:27
Stskeepsqwerty12: cp to /mnt/initfs/tmp would do the trick too18:27
AStormt_s_o: that's 4x AA18:27
t_s_o0.5 to low?18:27
AStormn8x0 needs 1A to run well18:27
qwerty12Stskeeps: Ah yes, /tmp > /mnt/initfs/tmp. I wonder how that remains rw :>18:27
AStorm0.5A is too low for the device to run18:27
AStormbarely enough to sustain base power use at 300 mA18:28
AStormadd MMC and you get 500 mA18:28
t_s_oseems to work fine of the usb here, and the usb max out at 0.518:28
qwerty12But I want to see if that binary runs, then it means the toolchain is working and I can get to compiling mtd-tools for initfs18:28
AStormt_s_o: it does work, but won't charge unless idle18:28
AStormbeen there, done that18:28
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t_s_oheh, may explain a bit :P18:28
ShadowJKWith screen off and sitting on my desk, connected to wlan, my N810 seems to last a few days on battery?18:28
ShadowJKah right18:28
Stskeepswith proper WMM in wifi router?18:28
t_s_oalso makes me wonder if me buying a philips power2charge was a stupid move...18:29
ShadowJKAStorm, ah right, you want to run full power constantly :)18:29
AStormShadowJK: not really, but you need like 750 mA to charge comfortably18:29
AStormand 1A to charge quickly18:29
AStormas in full stress, n810 can eat 800 mA18:29
AStormguess why the battery runtime is 4,5h - 5h18:30
lcukom nom nom nom!18:30
RST38h"one particular marijuana farmer had to be mighty embarrassed / wondering what he ever did to deserve such bad luck when a GPS-equipped turtle meandered into his crop."18:30
lcukit was only a few plants18:30
RST38hyea, that was what he said in the court =)18:31
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qwerty12shit, that means my invention is working18:31
lcukand one stoned turtle18:31
ShadowJKI wonder if you can connect several of those battery-powered chargers in parallell, or if they interfere with eachother18:31
AStormlcuk: hahaha18:31
AStormit doesn't stone turtles18:31
AStormShadowJK: well, you could, through a diode for safety18:31
* qwerty12 remembers stoned cheetah in harold and kumar18:31
RST38hBattery is 1.5Ah, so at 800mA it will be about 2 hours18:32
RST38hNot 618:32
RST38hthat is assuming running voltage of 3.7v18:32
AStormit's not :)18:32
AStormit's running on various voltages18:32
AStormso, the aggregate would be like 500 mA18:32
RST38h500mA at 3.7V?18:33
RST38h3 hours18:33
AStormwhich is actually correct18:33
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RST38hActually, it pretty much corresponds to the minimal running time battery applet reports18:33
AStormbut you'd have to blast both MMC and full CPU18:33
RST38hmplayer to the rescue! =)18:33
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AStorm*both* MMC :>18:33
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AStormand put something on USB port18:33
AStormalso run wifi and BT18:34
GeneralAntillesHarold and Kumar was a great flick18:34
GeneralAntillesThat guy still cracks me up in House.18:34
qwerty12HOLY SHIT! My sister actually got up :O. Charger is mine....18:36
AStormRST38h: I want more of that Menelaus chip18:36
AStormit's pure gold ;)18:36
qwerty12AStorm: Hit me up, I've got N810 service manuals and schematics18:36
AStormqwerty12: I do know where to chip in ;P18:37
qwerty12Heh :)18:37
AStormone hack I want to do some time is connecting USB port with the power in18:37
qwerty12I need to see if my initfs binary works...18:37
AStormand adding a bit of soft to negotiate 500 mA18:38
AStormbonus if I can make it work both ways and have a powered USB port in that case18:38
RST38hAStorm: mencoder transcoding from one mmc to the other!18:39
AStormRST38h: still add wifi and BT18:39
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AStormand something on USB18:39
AStormok: playing music from NFS drive over wifi in the background18:41
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AStorms/NFS drive/BT cell phone/18:42
AStormand making network available to that phone over wifi18:42
AStormthat leaves only USB18:43
AStormn810 is connected to the internet over USB ;P18:43
t_s_ohow low can one go and still have the N800 charge while idle?18:43
AStormt_s_o: 400 mA is my bet18:43
AStorm350 mA charger barely charged it18:44
t_s_ohmm, no wonder my recently bought power2charge from philips seems to not really like my N800...18:44
t_s_owell i guess it can still work in a pinch...18:45
AStorm450 mA charger had no problem charging it in idle18:45
* ShadowJK starts charging in idle18:45
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AStorm350 mA one caused battery drain in stress18:46
t_s_owell this thing is really rated for 350, but have 450 as a upper safety margin...18:46
ShadowJK42% when I started, according to battery-status :)18:46
AStormt_s_o: so it'll explode when n810 tries to pull >450 mA from it ;P18:46
AStormunless it has some nice safety circuit18:46
* AStorm still wants those MAX1763 - they look perfect18:47
AStormor some analog18:47
t_s_oknowing philips its some kind of safety in there, as the indicator light was blinking on and of while i tested it18:47
AStormyes, overcurrent shutdown18:47
t_s_obut when i tested it again today, that didnt happen...18:47
lcukis there anything which can view the profiling data produced by gcc?18:47
AStormn810 is smart and adjusts current18:47
AStormlcuk: it's called gprof18:47
lcukthanks :)18:48
AStormt_s_o: not maybe, certainly18:48
AStormit uses something like exponential backoff18:48
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t_s_odont tell me much18:48
AStormas I said, Menelaus is an excellent design18:48
Stskeepslbt: i've updated installation instructions on to fit the new installer18:48
ShadowJKall nokia devices seem to have a phase in the charging where it pulses the charging current, so that makes indicator lights blink on some chargers18:48
t_s_omy guess from recent experience, that happens close to full battery on the N80018:49
t_s_oand that may explain why the p2c was blinking last night18:50
AStormpulse charging of Li-Poly18:50
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AStormthe constant-voltage phase18:50
AStormthere's probably a "huge" cap it's charging to keep voltage constant18:50
t_s_oi was just thinking like so "N800 has the same charger port as a N-series phone, and the p2c supports N-series phones. i guess they should work"18:51
t_s_othe big annoying thing for me was that i could not find any input voltage data for the N800...18:53
ShadowJKMy E70 consumes more power than my N810 :)18:53
AStormt_s_o: input voltage is 5V18:53
ShadowJKBecause I use it as modem and that eats lots :)18:53
AStormmax 5,5V18:53
AStormShadowJK: E70 sure is power hungry, yes18:54
ShadowJKI had 6820 before, it ate even more power doing the same18:54
AStormhuh wha?18:54
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AStormhow did you measure?18:54
ShadowJKthe 6820 battery fits in E70, runtime is longer in E70 ;)18:55
ShadowJKIt's not surprising really, if you consider the USB 3G modem dongles come with usb Y cables in case your motherboard doesn't supply more than 500mA per port :)18:56
t_s_ocant say i have seen many dongles do that...18:56
ShadowJKwell they're all >500mA iirc18:57
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qwerty12WTF is up with my N800, I shove the charger in and it hangs on White nokia logo and goes off. Charger works in N80 and N73.18:58
qwerty12Oh, just my luck, the new charger is fucked up.18:59
lbtStskeeps: ok - been looking at that and insatlling the bootmenu.deb18:59
qwerty12~lart nokia's anal-retentive shitty charger18:59
* infobot squishes nokia's anal-retentive shitty charger like a bug18:59
RST38hANNOUNCEMENT: SlideRule 1.0 now officially available from
RST38h[.deb uploaded to Extras and awaiting XFade's approval, product page coming up as soon as there is a .deb in Extras]19:02
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t_s_oguess ill stay of the deb on the page then19:03
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RST38h[in unrelated news, ASUS is releasing scented laptops]19:03
RST38ht_s_o: it will be the same .deb, so you should be ok19:03
t_s_oyay, smelly laptops. thats new ;)19:03
ShadowJKi thought they all smeled19:03
t_s_oRST38h: yep, but app manager and updating off extra after a direct install dont really mix19:04
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t_s_oShadowJK: they do when the battery pops ;)19:04
GeneralAntillest_s_o, that should work fine.19:04
ShadowJKmostly of plastic and paint19:04
GeneralAntillesIt's repository -> .deb upgrade that's problematic.19:04
t_s_owell i had some funny errors when updating to a repo package after using one of .deb earlier19:05
RST38ht_s_o: they do for me, as long as it is the same package19:05
t_s_oapp manager was giving me a weird error and apt-get needed med to say yes to installing it as it was not certified or something19:06
RST38hyea, it would happen if the paclage you installed from the deb could not be identified as a previous version of the repo package19:06
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t_s_othen how did app manager see a update in the first place? *confused*19:07
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lbtStskeeps: you mentioned I needed some funky sudo package IIRC - did it go in as a dependency? I have to run install_bootmenu from a ssh session :)19:09
qwerty12Packages from a repo are always prioritised over debs installed locally even with the same version number. Retarded behaviour but...19:09
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Stskeepslbt: yeah, rootsh should go in automatically19:11
Stskeepsif you use .install19:11
GeneralAntillesEh, probably worthwhile for nubs19:11
Stskeepslbt: my "newest" installation guide doesnt mention bootmenu.deb though :P19:11
lbtno - I did that earlier for fun19:12
t_s_ohey RST38h, how about using the back key as the C key?19:12
lbtI'm running the installer now - it was fine19:12
lbtI need to specify a local apt-cacher url so doing that...19:12
Stskeepsk, should be possible in the "<click here to edit>"19:13
lbtcan't remember my port... looking19:13
Stskeepslbt: just verify you use my latest bootmenu.deb from dependancies/bootmenu as i changed some stuff lately to fix some bugs in the bootmenu.conf19:13
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Stskeepsi know now more about sh quirkiness than i want to know19:16
lbtit looks like I used the old bootmenu - I setup an /etc/bootmenu.d19:16
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lbtand during the reboot it seemed to work19:16
lbthowever it took a while and I got worrie19:17
lbtthen it booted19:17
Stskeepsyeah, it takes a bit due to journal19:17
lbtand *now* I realise it was failing to boot my mmc19:17
lbtit silently resorted to flash19:17
lbtso I'm not in the distro I thought I was.... oops19:17
Stskeepswell, i think i've ironed out the bugs in my stuff now as i havent made it break with two installations :P19:18
lbtI prefer my linuxrc that cycles the menu until you select a menu item that boots19:18
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lbtgranted my system is now a bit odd19:18
Stskeepsi should have some more checks for existence of linuxrc and such in my prolly19:18
Stskeeps.. i have marks after my ways of popping the battery on the battery :(19:19
lbtbootmenu needs an overhaul19:19
AStormStskeeps: no, you lose to me19:19
AStormI almost killed the battery ;>19:19
* qwerty12 just used a knife, eventually it loosened enough so I just have to use fingernails now19:19
AStormlbt: yes, it needs more modularity19:19
lbtAStorm: Stskeeps started with a bootmenu.d/19:20
AStormmaemo init system needs an overhaul too19:20
lbtyes - but my bug on that is WONTFIX19:20
lbtsince there's a new one on the way19:20
lbtI'd like to get an early preview so we can make it more open19:21
lbtand modular19:21
AStormI suggest Gentoo init19:21
* qwerty12 used upstart, speed of booting was great, would hang on shutdown19:21
AStormupstart is very tricky to code for19:21
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Stskeepslbt: diablo messing up initfs at flash just makes me sure that there should be a install bootmenu icon :P19:22
Stskeepscos so many people run into it19:22
liriis there a program which displays a large dial pad for dialing numbers and connects to a cellphone using bluetooth to actually dial it?19:23
GeneralAntilleslbt, you going to the Summit?19:23
qwerty12Now I know why they use uclibc, ...19:23
liriI installed PhoneLink, thinking that it's what I want and it is in terms of functionality but it doesn't have the large numeric dialpad19:23
lbtGeneralAntilles: no, not this time19:23
lbtwhen is it?19:23
GeneralAntilleslbt, it'd be a good time to discuss Fremantle stuff. ;)19:23
lbt's true19:23
GeneralAntillesSeptember 19th and 20th19:24
Stskeepsi should show up drunk and with a vodka bottle19:24
AStormqwerty12: they should've used statically-linked uclibc19:24
AStormnot dynamically linked uclibc19:24
GeneralAntillesStskeeps and with a 77019:24
GeneralAntillescrying about dropped support.19:24
Stskeepsdid 770 have two slots btw?19:25
qwerty12AStorm: Yeah, first binary is dynamically linked to uclibc and is the smallest naturally but won't run in initfs, the second binary is 31KB and statically linked to uclibc which runs and is a decent size but then, the same binary statically linked to glibc is 532 KB!19:25
* qwerty12 gets to statically compiling mtd-tools against uclibc19:27
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, just one RS-MMC.19:27
Stskeepsah, sucks19:27
AStormqwerty12: glibc is a hog19:27
AStormlinking statically against glibc is totally pointless19:27
GeneralAntillesThe N800 is a big step up over the 770.19:27
qwerty12AStorm: For sure. This is just a tiny 174 byte c file that displays 2 lines on the screen and I get a 532KB  binary :/19:28
Stskeepsqwerty12: is it stripped too?19:29
qwerty12Stskeeps: Not stripped19:29
qwerty12But good idea, I should get into the habit of doing that19:29
AStormyeah, stripping will axe a bit of file size19:29
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* qwerty12 wants to shove a quick menu on fanoush's bootmenu that will use mtd-tools to dump mtdblock4 to my mmc which I can then restore at my disposal19:30
Stskeepsi'd still say a .img file could do the trick if there's not enough space or whatever19:32
qwerty12It's not about space reasons, I just want a proper backup thing, one that will restore everything as it was before19:33
qwerty12Yep, strip's made it go from 31.4KB to 19.9KB, thanks19:34
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RST38ht_s_o: What back key?19:49
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RST38h          case 0x08:19:50
RST38h            Roll.In(0x08);19:50
RST38h            break;19:50
RST38hThis back key?19:50
t_s_oerr, back/esc the one that shows a arrow on the N80019:52
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t_s_ohmm, never mind. i see now that its used to get out of the F menus...19:53
RST38hThat key us ESC19:54
infobotRST38h meant: That key is ESC19:54
RST38hKinda dangerous to use it for BS as it has other meanings19:54
t_s_oit works as a kind of back button in the browser so...19:54
AStormthat's a hack, yes ;)19:55
t_s_oguess so19:55
RST38h~lart Nokia for using GDK_Fx key codes for hardware keys19:55
* infobot explains, ever so gently, that if Nokia for using GDK_Fx key codes doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help for hardware keys19:55
AStormuh wtf?19:56
AStormwas that English?19:56
t_s_oanyways, now im torn between sliderule and mathjinni...19:57
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AStormI want qalculate for maemo19:57
AStormsomeone should build it19:57
AStormit's much better and easier to use than that HP42 calc19:58
Stskeepslbt: did you use my .install for diablo btw? did it install without hassle?19:58
RST38hI think it was a bug19:58
AStormbtw, anyone managed to get a HSDPA/GSM modem working with n8x0?19:59
lbtnot quite19:59
lbttrying again now19:59
lbt(got sidetracked with a debian nfs-common bug on my wife's box...)20:00
RST38hAStorm: harass qwerty12 or pupnik, ask them to port20:00
AStormRST38h: no port needed, just a build20:00
RST38hor build20:00
AStormit's a gtk calculator after all :>20:00
RST38halthough I highly doubt that it will work well without hildonization20:00
AStormwhy not?20:00
RST38hwill not look native20:00
Stskeepslbt: k20:00
AStormit uses the standard gtk textbox with ownerdrawing of a bit of text20:00
RST38hbut it shouldn't be a lot of a problem anyway20:01
infobotAStorm meant: it uses the standard gtk combobox with ownerdrawing of a bit of text20:01
RST38hAStorm: That is especially scary, considering that Hildon may have added a few changes to the standard combobox ;)20:02
AStormwell, this minor ownerdraw should work20:02
AStormas it's done correctly20:03
RST38hmay get laid out differently20:03
RST38hbut yes, ownerdraw will still work20:03
AStormnah, it's just right aligned20:03
AStormbtw, try to ignore qalculate's website20:03
AStormit's horrible ;P20:03
lbtStskeeps: I guess I made a typo in the url line again ...20:04
lbtwhere is the list kept?20:04
AStormhmm, it might need a bit of hildonization for the popup list of units/functions20:04
lbtgot it /usr/share/deblet/debian_mirrors.lst20:05
RST38hit has got multiple windows20:07
RST38hand gnuplot integration20:08
RST38hi.e. one will have to hildonize its windows and probably port/hildonize gnuplot too20:08
AStormRST38h: well, multiple windows are not important too much20:08
AStormmenu will have to be cut down a bit most likely20:09
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Stskeepslbt: so you installed with the .install (did the installation of the installer program work)?20:16
lbtI don't think there were any real problems20:16
Stskeepssounds good20:16
lbtIt didn't do very well supporting my existing multiboot20:17
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Stskeepsprolly not20:17
lbt(but thats not a deblet issue)20:17
lbtI made some notes on that - my main one is "give me a shell to edit bootmenu.d and other things like partition device nodes"20:17
Stskeepsfor initfs i guess20:18
lbtthen at least I could have tried to reboot20:18
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lbtinto my mmcp2 rootfs20:18
Stskeepsmy next issue to solve is the Dreaded Fsck Bug.. for some fucked up reason, if you have a ext2/3 fs, if you pop battery in deblet, and try to boot up deblet, fsck refuses to run because of "Device or resource busy"20:18
Stskeepswithout any open files to claim why this might be the case20:18
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Stskeepsthat's my biggest bug before an actual release20:19
lbtwell it'll be a while - it's pulling 'apt' right now...20:19
Stskeepsi ran two installations today to test20:20
Stskeepsone into a file, one into partition20:20
lbtoh yes, I noticed it tried to unmount all the partitions20:20
lbtglad rootfs wasn't there :)20:20
Stskeepsit cant umount rootfs anyway, so20:20
lbtI think there may be some script re-ordering needed - not syre20:20
Stskeepspartioner refuses to work if theres a mounted partition, so20:21
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lbtI also found the list of partitions (/proc/partitions?) less than helpful.. cfdisk -P20:22
Stskeepsbest way to represent i could find :P20:23
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Stskeepsit could probably be more wide20:24
zapyou can use fdisk -l20:24
Stskeepsno such thing on normal maemo..20:25
Stskeepsokay, maybe sfdisk -l would be better..20:25
lbtcfdisk -P s /dev/mmcblk020:25
lbtthat's busybox cfdisk IIRC20:25
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Stskeepsbusybox in maemo doesnt have cfdisk20:26
Stskeepscfdisk you have is from my repo :P20:26
Stskeepscfdisk -P s is what you see in the dialog20:27
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* Stskeeps alters and commits20:27
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ShadowJKhah, two hours of charging at max 350mA and battery-status says charge level has dropped .4% :-)20:46
AStormI told you ;P20:46
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ShadowJKI think the N810 isn't eating full 350 though, because the charger isn't getting warm20:51
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AStormit is20:52
AStormthe charger shouldn't get warm ever20:53
AStormit's just a few watts20:53
AStorm350 mA * 5V = x W20:53
AStorma bit below 2 W20:53
AStormlet's now suppose 80% efficiency20:53
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AStormthat is just 0.35W to be dissipated20:54
AStormthis isn't anywhere near enough to get warm20:54
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ShadowJKsince it's a battery-powered charger, it should've actually have run down the batter some time ago :)21:05
ShadowJKif it was outputting 350mA21:05
johnxnah, if I follow correctly 350mA is what it's dissipating as heat21:07
johnxmy assumption is, is that it's not 80% efficient21:07
Stskeeps'lo johnx21:07
johnxhey Stskeeps21:07
Stskeepsjohnx: i have scary hack making .img files bootable and installer debootstrapping into it :>21:07
johnxStskeeps, what's scary about it? just mounting loopback right?21:08
Stskeepsyou'd think so. except initfs busybox doesn't do loopback21:08
johnxbusybox mount?21:08
johnxhmm...that's a PITA21:08
Stskeepsso i had to compile newest busybox with only mount in it, use a scary combination of not mounting vfat noexec and running busybox_mount from the mmc, and mount -o remount,noexec later :P21:09
Stskeepsit works, though21:09
johnxyou're right. that's kinda scary21:09
AStormShadowJK: how large are the batteries?21:10
AStormjohnx: 0.35 W = 350 mW is dissipated as heat21:11
AStormif it's 80% efficient21:11
ShadowJK1500mAh AA nimh ;)21:11
AStormit's more likely that it's over 90% efficient21:11
johnxAStorm, I kinda assume it's not21:11
AStormShadowJK: well, then it's good for some hours21:11
AStormI suspect like, 8h21:11
AStormjohnx: it doesn't get warm :>21:11
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johnxAStorm, ah, nevermind then. I misread I guess...21:11
AStormShadowJK: I lied21:12
AStormmore like 4h21:12
AStormunless the step up is 90% efficient at 1.2V -> 5V21:13
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AStormwhich is unlikely21:13
Stskeepsjohnx: but it gives funny abilities like dual-booting between maemo (and using chroot) and deblet, so you share settings and such21:13
ShadowJK1.2V * 1.5Ah = 1.8 Watthours, 5 Volts * .35 A = 1.75Watt.. should last slightly more than an hour if 100% efficient?21:13
Stskeepsjohnx: and this without repartitioning21:13
AStormhuh what?21:13
AStormShadowJK: sorry, it's 1500 mAh21:13
AStormyou get 90% of that21:13
AStormand you're pulling 350 mA21:14
AStorm1500 * 0.9 / 350 = hours21:14
ShadowJKYou don't get 1500mAh at 5Volts out of a 1.2V 1500mAh battery21:14
AStormyes, but you're running two, righT?21:14
AStorm>>> 1500 * 0.9 / 35021:14
ShadowJKoh this one takes one :P21:14
AStormah, so it's probably like 80% efficient then21:15
AStormthat gives 3.5h21:15
ShadowJKYou have to account for the voltage differene21:15
AStorm80% efficiency means you get 80% of power21:15
ShadowJKA isn't power21:15
AStormthe 20% are wasted21:15
AStormShadowJK: it is, if multiplied by 1h21:15
AStormactually, it's work then21:16
AStormwe want time to run down21:16
AStormso you get capacity in Ah * efficiency / (current * time)21:16
AStormassuming it's pulling 350 mA, that means it uses 350mAh in an hour21:16
ShadowJKIn that case you must measure current from the AA battery, not current into the N8x021:17
AStormefficiency takes care of that21:17
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AStormefficiency = conversion efficiency21:17
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AStormso, n810 sees that much capacity actually, taking into account all conversion losses21:18
ShadowJKThere's no circuit in the world that will take 1.5 volt at .35/.8 A and output 5V at .35A21:18
AStormsure, there is21:18
ShadowJKNo there isn't21:18
AStormit's called a step-up DC/DC converter21:18
AStormuhm, wait21:18
AStormit will take more current, yes21:18
AStormbut you don't care21:18
AStormas efficiency takes that into consideration21:19
ShadowJKThe basic principle is that input watts is same as output watts, minus efficiency losses21:19
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AStormefficiency means how much mA you will get of 1 A pulled from the battery21:19
AStormas voltage is set21:19
AStormtime is also same21:20
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AStormit's pulling like 450 mA from the battery21:20
ShadowJKSo 5Volts out at .35A, that's 1.75Watt. At an input voltage of 1.2 Volt, you will need 1.75W / 1.2V = 1.46 Amps, assuming 100% efficient conversion. At 80% efficienct that becomes about 1.82 Amps21:21
Stskeepsjohnx: odd question.. did beta3 do fscks or not?21:21
AStormyes, I fail21:21
ShadowJKP = U * I and so on21:22
AStormShadowJK: NiMH for low-current would fail already21:22
AStormunless the 350mA is bursty load21:22
ShadowJKnimh can supply plenty of amps though :)21:22
AStormnot NiMH of low capacity21:23
AStormthey're designed for low-drain applications21:23
AStormhigh capacity NiMH are another story21:23
AStormthey survive short-circuit over low resistance even ;P21:23
ShadowJKNimh designed for high currents are usually lower in capacity, and high capacity nimh are usually weaker at supplying amps...21:23
AStormthe other way around21:24
AStormguess why high-capacity NiMH are used for flash lamps21:24
ShadowJKLet me smack you with some graphs21:24
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AStormlet me smack you with Duracell's info21:24
RST38hweird, at some point modest stopped checking for email21:25
AStormRST38h: crashed maybe?21:25
AStormit's timestamp got corrupted?21:25
RST38hstill there but not checking21:26
RST38hno idea21:26
* RST38h wonders if nokia will ever get mail app working right21:26
RST38h'cause the current situation is slowly moving from "annoying" into "bizarre"21:27
ShadowJKThe titanium 1800mAh voltage at 15 Amps is better than the 2900mAh cell at 7 Amps... go figure :)21:27
AStormShadowJK: apples, oranges?21:27
kkrustyhas anyone tried that freezer trick with their n810?21:27
ShadowJKApples and apples, titanium 2700mAh:
AStormthey write something entirely different on packaging21:29
ShadowJKYou mean capacity? Yes, almost all manufacturers lie21:29
AStormno, I mean "applications" of the battery21:29
AStormwhere high-capacity is said to be designed for high current drain21:30
johnxRST38h, yeah, I ran into the same thing with email. I thought I was just suddenly unpopular. :/21:30
ShadowJKAStorm, well, it's entirely possible that their low-capacity cells were actually MEANT to be high capacity cells, but had quality problems during manufacturing, so they're kinda crap and get labeled as low capacity lower drain21:30
ShadowJKBut 1-2Amp for any AA nimh is pretty low drain anyway, relatively21:31
AStormpossible, yes21:31
RST38hjohnx: Is there a bug report or should we file one?21:31
johnxRST38h, I really don't know21:32
johnxI've been really busy IRL recently. Haven't done much with my tablet besides actually use it :)21:32
AStormstill, I need a bunch of good DC/DC converters, 1.2V/2.4V input, 5V output21:33
AStormanything good you could recommend?21:34
ShadowJKwell okay, energizer kinda generally fails:
AStormShadowJK: lol, it broke ;)21:34
ShadowJKBut energizer has incentive to keep their Nimhs crap so that people continue buy alkalines and lithiums :)21:34
AStormI;m not sure if it's better to serially link the NiMH to get the 2.4V in, and get smaller capacity21:36
AStormor link them parallel and face lower converter efficiency21:36
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AStormassuming the converter can handle the current21:37
ShadowJKgo for serial21:37
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ShadowJKthough if you use serial, use a circuit that stops working at 1.6 ... 2.0V21:37
AStormyes, that's not a problem :>21:38
ShadowJKThat way it will stop when the voltage is somewhere between 0.8Volt and 1.0Volt per cell. NiMH hate getting discharged to death, and they especially hate reverse charging, which can happen if the capacities are mismatched and one cell gets empty before the other one does21:38
ShadowJKOld nicads on the other hand didn't mind getting drained dead :)21:39
AStormthey did mind a lot about charging when not empty though21:39
ShadowJKwell... sort of :)21:39
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ShadowJKThe energy was still stored in there, it just came out at 1 volt... which made most devices think the batteries were dead :)21:39
AStormok, so I need a very good DC/DC and I;m too lazy to design one21:40
ShadowJKI'm hopeless with soldering21:40
AStormI'm hopeless with bad tools ;>21:40
AStormneed a good soldering iron stand21:40
AStormor a good pencil soldering iron21:40
ShadowJKI built a 5V supply with 7805 before, but then I just took some wires and connectors from a dead 486 motherboard, they seemed to fit the 7805 perfectly, and then I used screws to hold the wiring in place for the rest of the components ...21:41
AStormI'd rather make a circuit board21:42
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AStormit's easy and space-efficient21:42
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ShadowJKheck, if I could even manage to solder some wires onto the pins of the 7805 I'd be happy21:42
moontigerGeneralAntilles, did you have anything to do with my garage thingy getting approved this morning?21:42
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AStorm7805 is a huge beast21:43
AStormnowhere close to current TSSOP21:43
AStormI'd love some BGA chip21:43
AStormand a good infrared lamp21:43
ShadowJKhm, those converters you looked at, did any of them handle input > output voltage ?21:44
* moontiger goes off to figure out how to make a .deb...21:44
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ShadowJKI'd want a 2Amp 3-4.2V -> 5V converter myself :>21:48
AStorm3-4.2 to 5 is easy21:50
AStormthere are many such devices21:50
_juliandoes someone know if it is possible to disable the onscreen keyboard for specific widgets in qt/maemo?21:51
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Stskeeps~curse ext322:11
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, ext3 !22:11
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GAN800infobot's curses suck22:22
moontigerif im making a package do i have to go thru that scratchbox stuff? or can i just make a standard .deb file?22:24
jottGAN800: they are just getting old :)22:26
jottmoontiger: you do not need scratchbox for creating debs, but a debian based host would be useful for it.22:27
moontigeri run a debian system on all my machines ... so i can just make a standard deb? :)22:27
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jottmoontiger: well if it's not arch dependend :)22:29
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jottmoontiger: or you prepare it for autobuilder and let the builder take care of it :)22:30
moontigerjott ... yes thnx ... its a python thingy so its pretty arch neutral22:30
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jottthe extras(-devel) thingie.22:31
Stskeepsthere's that py2deb thing as well .. i think22:31
moontigerforgive my lack of knowledge about all this but i dont know what you mean :|22:31
infobotsomebody said extras was
moontigerbut i want to learn to make debs anyways as i want to package stuff for the desktop too22:32
Stskeepswell, there's loads of guides if you google debian package creation22:33
jottjust keep in mind that if you build your deb on a different system than your target, dependencies may differ, especially when using automatically generated depends with ${....:Depends}22:34
jottStskeeps: problem is that many suck :p22:34
Stskeepsjott: which is why i swear by dpkg-deb --build :P22:35
jottmoontiger: maybe also take a look at the maemo reference manual, it covers many basics.22:35
moontigerthanks guys ... im new to the debian way ... ex-windows programmer ... i know ... ive been to support groups and shared ;)22:36
moontigerim going thru the deb building stuff and it seems fairly simple22:36
jottyeah, most of the time it's straight forward. it's just that there are quite a few different approaches that have grown over the time.22:37
lcukits easy to use a meat grinder as well22:37
* lcuk gives moontiger half a thumbs up22:37
moontigeri want to build a deb and put it in extras-devel for now22:38
jottlcuk: just don't put your thumb in the grinder :P22:38
lcukwhat you on about, my thumb was the only thing saved22:39
lcukyou shouldv seen the mess it made of my legs!22:39
moontigerlcuk ... the typing thumb22:39
jotthah could you atleast feed your family? :)22:40
lcuk:D omg
LinuxCodeyou want to be E.T ?22:41
LinuxCodelifetime ambition mate ?22:41
lcukwell i had aimed to have other things glowing like that, but things didnt turn out as planned22:42
* LinuxCode tries to not have his mind wander too much22:42
jottthe video is really disturbing :p22:42
RST38hplease elaborate22:42
* LinuxCode thinks toes22:42
* jott thinks spam22:43
lcukjott, thats more disturbing than my original train of thought22:43
LinuxCodeI can deal with spam....22:44
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LinuxCodenot sure I can deal with your other thought22:44
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melmothlcuk: i think i ll give up for the picture stuff.. pixbuf_new_from_* would require pygtk compiled with numeric support.23:12
melmothand i miserably fail trying to transform the bitmap manually with the image module.23:12
melmothworkaround=save the file in a thread on the disk, and read it from the pygtk gui thread...ugly :-(23:12
lcukwhat is the data you are trying to visualise23:13
lcukand why couldnt you just draw onto a pixmap directly?23:13
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melmotha cairo picturr representing the are the gps is on , using openstreetmap data23:14
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melmoththe irony suppose to be for a "blind" application anyway (audio routing for bike mainly) :)23:15
melmothlcuk:computing the image will takes some time, i just want one every once in a while23:16
lcukdoesnt that show using cairo drawing directly onto a gtk window?23:16
melmothand i do not want the rest of the gui to be frozen while i compute it23:16
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lcukhow long does it take?23:17
melmothlcuk: i have no problem drawingf directly on the area if i compute things from the pygtk gui thread.23:17
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melmothIt depends the number of node.23:17
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melmothcouple of seconds on the tbale i guess23:17
lcukare we talking seconds per frame, or still <0.2s kind of slow?23:18
melmothi think drawing one frame will take more than a second23:18
lcukarghh, is there any reasonable speedups you could attempt - even if you get it working on an offscreen bitmap, that kind of refresh time isnt good23:18
melmothi do not know where i could speed up things. I already try to load as few nodes as possible.23:19
lcukduring a single frame, do you have any idea how long each section takes?  ie time to lookup data 0.4s,  time to sort nodes 0.2s, time to clip and render 0.523:20
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lcukis this the project itself?23:20
melmothno, i do not do that. i just know drawing the frame is fast compared to fetching the data in the db and computing the route :-)23:21
melmothyes it is23:21
lcuklookup and rendering should be seperate to the route system?23:22
lcukie you dont have to do routing just the render do you23:22
melmoththe idea is to start to draw stuff only once i have a route23:22
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melmothno point rendering stuff if i do not know where to go23:22
melmoththe route is extremely long, but, i think i ll try to hasv some "preferred" route stored, and only compute route to one of the nearest node in a route i already have computed23:23
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lcukmelmoth, if you draw on a gtk widget with cairo and the widget was hidden when you started, if you made it visible after you have finished will it contain all the stuff you drew with cairo?23:27
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melmothi do not know.23:28
melmothi never used drawing area before today :)23:28
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lcukwhere have you had experience with maps? or is all of it new?23:29
melmothlcuk: but the main wast of time is not that much the drawinfg itself, it s the feeding of nodes in the database, (wich needs to have at least the area from start to destination to compute route).23:29
melmothas this takes a long time, and as i need this to dra the litte local map, i decided to do every stuff related to map in a separate obkect23:30
melmoththe gui is just , displaying stuff already made, and taking user events.23:30
lcukmelmoth, yes route scanning is like lightening, it expands from both ends to adjacent nodes until it meets its counterpart23:31
melmothlcuk: i got inspired by
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lcukif you cannot get the entire node tree into memory then a very efficient algo must be found23:31
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melmothi assume there is a route in the circle with diameter == start to destination+ a given buffer around23:32
melmoththe the algo is A*23:32
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melmothworks ok as long as there are no "island"23:33
lcukmelmoth, technically you just restrict it to know boundaries, it could span the earth looking for a route as long as the database/connection table contains links23:35
kkrustylcuk: I got the n810 to work23:36
lcukkkrusty, how?23:36
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kkrusty10 minutes in the freezer and then firmware update23:36
lcukmelmoth, thats how google etc manage to have random routes which send you around multiple countries to get to another local dest23:36
lcukkkrusty, :S wouldnt attempt somethin like that myself i dont think23:37
kkrustylcuk: well yes the freezer part wasnt necessary but it seemed to work for some people:
kkrustyI just needed it to run for one time to get it updated23:38
GAN800N810 was affected by the poweron issue23:38
infobotGAN800 meant: N810 wasn't affected by the poweron issue23:38
GAN800Only the N800 needed the update.23:38
kkrustyI had the n810 packed but I thought that I'd give the freezer tip a go since I didnt want to have it sent to the seller only for them to find it to work23:40
GAN800moontiger, no, not a thing.23:40
kkrustyI'll obviously keep an eye on this for as long as its return policy is valid23:41
melmothlcuk (and anyone who do pygame stuff): the previous week , i was thinking of using pygame instead of pygtk...And i hit a funny bug that made me change my mind.23:41
melmothwhen rendering this in pygame, i see a rose circle.and it should be gray23:42
lcukmake a minimal test case, report it as a bug?23:43
melmoththis is already a miminal test case :) I wonder _where_ the bug may be , and so where to report it.23:44
melmothpygame ?23:44
moontigermelmoth ... ur problem is optimizing the route search yes?23:45
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melmothmoontiger: no, i m not into routing problems yet. my current issue is being able to prepare a cairo image in a separate thread than the one the gui is running on23:47
moontigeryou cant pass the drawing surface into the thread?23:47
melmoththe surface depends from the window it s on.23:48
melmothand i do not think passing it in another thread that would change its buffer is a good idea.23:48
moontigerwell right but you cant pass a structure to the drawing thread that describes the surface it has to work with?23:48
lcukshouldnt the worker thread simply be preparing vecotrs23:49
melmoththat s what i would like to be able to do ,like a numeric array (but maemo pygtk is not compiled to support it) or an array.array23:49
lcukthe render thread should just draw what its got available23:49
lcuksimply give it a list of (sx,sy,ex,ey,thick,color)23:49
moontigerideally you would want a fifo render pipeline that gets fed from the prep thread23:49
moontigerlifo that is23:50
melmothi like the idea of sendinf a list of vector, or a description of the image.23:50
moontigercan you not set up a shared memory buffer23:50
melmothmoontiger: i did try.23:51
moontigerthat the prep thread writes to and the render thread / app reads from23:51
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moontigerlike a dma buffer23:51
melmothi was 1)not able to use it on the draw area itself (becuase of lack of skills)23:51
lcuki even do it another way, in one of the things in my project, ive got 900 little sketch files to load and display - now i cannot do this all in a reasonable time, it takes about 20 seconds to load - but each frame i just load a couple23:51
melmoth2) when , in the gui thread i used this buffer to write a file, i realised i had it wrong anyway: opposite and some mask problem23:51
melmothi try to copy it in a numeric array to rechangeh it the way i want, without success.23:52
moontigerso the gui is where the user selects to end points and off you go yes?23:52
moontigerto = two23:52
melmoththe user only select 1 end point in a simple gtktreeview: it s alist of available "station", where you can take and put back the rent a bike thingy.23:53
moontigerahhhhhhhhhh u live in paris yes?23:53
melmothyep :)23:54
melmothstation are not shown there23:54
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moontigerhmmmmm i havent played with threads in python much but cant they see each others shared memory?23:55
moontigeror at least see the apps shared memory?23:56
AStormthey can23:56
AStormbut it means they take the global lock23:56
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AStormthe Global Interpreter Lock, or GIL23:56
moontigerso you could set up a route planning thread ... a rendering thread and have them run async to the main gui23:56
AStormevery bunch of bytecode lines23:56
moontigerwow thats a brilliant design decision ... not23:57
AStormor some time23:57
melmoththat s what i m planning to do. Right now there is a main thread, one for the gui, and one for the mapping thingy23:57
AStormmoontiger: it is easier to do23:57
AStormonly concerns uninterpreted bytecode or variable access really23:57
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AStormso Python threads are crummy23:57
moontigerah ok ... im used to c/c++ threading23:57
moontigerAStorm, does that mean threading in python is a bit not worth it then?23:58
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AStormit is worth it, if you're waiting for something23:59
AStormor doing IO23:59
AStormnot if you want parallel computation23:59
moontigerok that answrs my q ... thnx23:59

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