IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-06-22

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lardman|afkJaffa: me?00:21
summatusmentisI think they're talking about ssvb00:21
summatusmentisbut I have no idea00:21
lardman|afkJaffa: Oh ssvb, nah, I was talking to him earlier and he's not on irc anymore00:21
lardman|afkJaffa: I'm sure he'll be back tomorrow00:22
* qwerty12_N800 misses linux (except for having to use ndiswrapper) :(. I'll probably end up buying another harddrive soon and putting linux on that.00:27
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summatusmentisqwerty12_N800: I told you00:31
* summatusmentis slaps ITT00:31
summatusmentisit's sucking me in!00:31
qwerty12_N800summatusmentis, Alas, you did. I bow my head in shame.00:32
GeneralAntillesitT is just shit these days.00:32
GeneralAntillesIt's not even managing to peak my interest anymore.00:33
summatusmentisI don't like forums, but I just replied to an random thread about CLIs, because it was there00:33
summatusmentisI felt compelled to voice my opinion on a topic I know comes up over and over again00:33
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summatusmentissomeone's not bitter :)00:39
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lardman|afknight all01:09
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n800mcan you change the transparency for applets?01:16
n800mwithout hacking?01:16
qwerty12_N800No, the applet itself defines the value.01:17
n800mcool, thanks01:17
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GeneralAntillesThis guy couldn't possibly spam any more submissions:
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* sp3000 recoils01:27
* qwerty12_N800 wonders why people put in submissions that don't look professional01:29
sp3000but hey, not all of these suck :)01:30
sp3000but seriously,
sp3000oh well, enough bashing :)01:31
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sp3000some rampant æ fetishism01:36
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* GeneralAntilles wonders where johnx has been hiding.01:52
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chibiAcydoff the top of your heads, anyone know the max operating temp of the n8x0?01:55
GeneralAntillesI've never seen that information01:55
lcukits got a thermometer thou01:56
kkrustymy n800 just crashed on the pdf reader01:56
GeneralAntilleskkrusty, what, you want a cookie? :P01:56
kkrustysure. why not?01:57
kkrustywondering whether this has happened to anyone else01:57
GeneralAntillesI'm quite certain it has.01:57
chibiAcydits so hot outside i burned myself on my n81001:58
lcukdont leave it in the sun01:58
lcukwould have thought that would apply to all electronics though01:58
GeneralAntillesI'd be more worried about the damage to the battery than the damage to the OMAP.01:58
chibiAcydit was in my pocket01:58
kkrustythe crash happens when Im scrolling to a new page01:59
lcukare you sure you didnt short circuit it ?01:59
GeneralAntilleskkrusty, tried Evince?01:59
chibiAcydi was about to say evince lol01:59
lcukkkrusty, did you reload it and try again?  is it reproducable or just a random crash which you can just move past?02:00
kkrustyI did, I seem to have had the same problem but Im not sure02:00
lcukwell did it crash again or not?02:00
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kkrustylcuk: Its most certainly a random crash because its happened before and I just keep on reading after a reboot02:01
chibiAcydwell im gonna hop off here and let my battery cool a bit. later02:01
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lcukcos that happens (too frequently) to me but its various programs and not 1 specific thing02:01
lcuki only ever rebooted by pda a couple of times in its entire life, i seem to do this at least once or twice a week02:03
GeneralAntillesPDA != Pocket-sized Linux computer.02:03
kkrustywell another thing about it is that it only seems to happen when I scroll to a new page. And it doesnt really crash, more like doesnt respon02:04
lcuksame form factor, same programs - sure i can compile anything i want, but similar for pda - they equal for lots of tasks - sure the 8x0 goes beyond and has additional features and things to do02:04
lcukthats pdf specific then?02:04
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GeneralAntillesCrash != Freeze02:05
GeneralAntillesWhich is it?02:05
GeneralAntillesDoes it crash or does it freeze?02:05
lcukand if freeze doesnt watchdog kick it02:05
kkrustyfreeze, I was desperately looking for that word02:06
kkrustybad brain!02:06
GeneralAntillesDoes it come out of the freeze?02:06
GeneralAntillesIs the PDF complicated?02:06
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: depends on what you mean complicated. It is long i.e. 200+ pages02:07
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: Nope02:07
GeneralAntillesAnyway, tried Evince?02:07
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: yeah I do. I might have had the same problem with that but Im not sure. I'll give it a go and report back if anything goes wrong02:09
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: normally though the default pdf viewer is convenient because thats the default viewer02:09
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: so thats what I end up using most of the time02:09
GeneralAntillesTraditionally, the built-in PDF viewer has been useless02:10
GeneralAntillesIt's a lot better in OS2008, but not quite up to snuff.02:10
GeneralAntillesMe, though, I just stay far away from PDFs. :D02:10
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bmidgleylardman sorry I'm never around... but I did email you back :)02:16
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kkrustyGeneralAntilles: ascii then?02:16
bmidgleyor rather lardman|gone02:16
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GAN800Oh what fun a brownout will be. . . .02:39
summatusmentisI guess that's one beneft to living in the middle of nowhere02:40
lcukit wouldnt be too bad, i would setup a solar panel for 810 and carry on regardless02:40
summatusmentisalso one benefit to setting up solar energy for one's house :)02:42
GAN800APC is keeping my net up and I'll switch to the cell after that dies in about two hours. :D02:42
lcukyarghhh, you mean you actually are..02:43
GAN800thunderstorm messed up the power.02:44
lcuk:( not good02:44
lcukdid you get good photos though?02:44
GAN800One room is fine, the other (with computer and fridge) has just a trickle.02:44
GAN800No decent camera02:44
GAN800Not even a real storm.02:45
lcukof electricity?02:45
GAN800The cfl looked like they do when the ballast is blown and the incandescent lamp looks like a carbon incadescent.02:46
lcukthat sounds worse than off altogether, is there any chance its an actual wiring fault triggered after a spike02:46
GAN800My neighbor's are at half-power, too.02:46
GAN800So it's not at my panel, anyway.02:46
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chibiAcydits a nice cool 113F out right now02:58
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GAN800Where the hell are you?03:03
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sjgadsbyI parsed that as "New Mae Mouser" at first.03:33
summatusmentisme too03:33
newmaemouserYou're not the first today :)03:46
summatusmentisI actually asked what a mae mouser was before I realized03:47
newmaemouserI should probably get a proper name soon03:47
lcukbe quick, they tend to stick03:48
* lcuk is still in his temp name03:48
summatusmentisI was wondering what your nick was about lcuk03:48
lcukwell its not a typo on luck, the uk is where i am from :)03:49
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summatusmentisoh, that makes sense03:49
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nelsonds3: guess what?04:13
nelsonds3: a four-cell battery pack with *alkaline* D cells powers the NIT just fine.04:14
rm_youGAN800: morning04:14
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GeneralAntillesI was overcome by laziness, you get the idea anyway.05:16
GeneralAntillesI can set up templates to make most of that pretty easy.05:16
sjgadsbyThanks! I'll poke at it, see if I can move it into my own sandbox, and play.05:18
GeneralAntillesJust play with it there.05:19
DekaritaeBought a Skeletool05:19
sjgadsbyOkay, will do.05:20
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GeneralAntillesWe can probably turn the index page into a category05:32
GeneralAntillesand sort by year/month or something.05:32
sjgadsbyGA: Sounds good.05:43
GeneralAntillesJust get something that you think will work and I'll turn it into templates. :D05:44
sjgadsbyOkay. I won't be able to work on it tonight, but I will work on it. Thanks!05:47
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rm_youDekaritae: ??05:57
GeneralAntillesrm_you, new Leatherman multitool.05:57
* GeneralAntilles hugs his Charge Ti.05:58
GeneralAntillesOnly the best Leatherman ever made.05:58
rm_youoh yeah, well, I just bought this:
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rm_you3 yards :)05:59
summatusmentiserm... why?06:00
GeneralAntillesLeathermans are invaluable tools.06:00
summatusmentisI feel like I'd carry one around, forget I had it, and then try to go through airport security with it06:01
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rm_youcheap!!! Projector Screen06:01
rm_youputting it on the wall currently06:01
summatusmentisI see06:01
rm_you102" diagonal :P06:02
rm_youwin :P06:02
GeneralAntillesMine's become a hip tumor.06:02
GeneralAntillesProjectors suck06:02
derfI'm _still_ pissed about TSA confiscating my precision screwdriver set in 2003.06:03
summatusmentisthey took screwdrivers?06:03
derfThey sure did.06:03
summatusmentisfor what reason?06:04
derfBecause they could.06:04
GeneralAntillesThe agent needed a set06:04
derfWell, too bad for him.06:04
summatusmentisI've carried knitting needles through and noone said anything06:04
derfHe got the bits, but not the driver.06:04
derfI've never seen another set like it... had a nice, thick plastic handle on the driver that really let you get some torque on the things.06:05
DekaritaeGeneralAntilles: Some people won't buy Leatherman because they don't make lefty tools, but I can one-hand the blade on the Skeletool lefted06:06
derfThey were part of a grab-bag of gifts from a contest I won, so I wouldn't even know where to look to buy something like that.06:06
derfI've never seen anything remotely similar in a store.06:06
summatusmentisthe TSA get's anal about stupid things06:07
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summatusmentis'night lopz06:08
derfI mean, I work for a defense contractor, and was taking them on a business trip because I _actually_ _needed_ them.06:09
derfBut I didn't think trying to explain to the guy that he was hurting national security more than he was helping it would've done much good.06:09
summatusmentisyou don't get like... security clearance or something that you can just flash and they leave you alone?06:10
derfAs it was he almost made my miss my (domestic) flight despite arriving at the airport 3 hours early.06:10
derfsummatusmentis: Only if you actually work for the government itself.06:10
derfBut even that doesn't work very well outside your chosen agency.06:11
summatusmentispsh, no fair06:11
derfLike, my sister works for TSA, so she's got creds to flash. But if she wanted to get into, say, Coast Guard headquarters, they'd just look at her funny.06:12
summatusmentiswell, sure06:12
summatusmentisbut I feel like some creds would trump stupid TSA rules06:12
derfI'm pretty sure if someone from the Coast Guard tried to flash creds at a TSA worker, they still wouldn't buy it.06:13
derfThe people at the bottom don't know nothing _but_ the rules.06:13
summatusmentisthey might if it were NSA or something06:13
derfI don't think the NSA goes around flashing creds.06:14
derfFBI or CIA maybe, but now you're talking actual law enforcement officials, and that's different.06:14
summatusmentisheh, alright, fair enough06:14
derfAn NSA employee would just as soon no one knew he worked for them at all.06:15
summatusmentisprobably true06:15
nelsonyeah, but "..... because of the terrorist threat" trumps all civilian rules.06:19
nelsonderf An NSA employee would just as soon no one knew he worked for them at all .... because of the terrorist threat.06:20
nelsonsummatusmentis probably true .... because of the terrorist threat.06:20
nelsonIt's like catsup -- it goes with everything and you can put as much as you want on.06:20
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summatusmentisexcept... ketchup doesn't go with ice cream06:23
summatusmentisor peanut butter06:23
derfYou don't need ice cream or peanut butter. What are you, some kind of terrorist?06:23
derfI remember thinking, when the Berlin wall fell, "What bogeyman is the government going to use to scare people now?"06:24
summatusmentiswho doesn't need ice cream or peanut butter?!?06:24
derfIt took them longer than I expected to find one.06:24
summatusmentisdoes it bother you, being a government contractor?06:25
derfNot really, no.06:25
nelsonit's your patriotic duty to be scared of terrorists.06:25
derfI mean, _I'm_ not trying to scare people.06:26
summatusmentisderf: you don't ever feel like you're supporting something you shouldn't be?06:26
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derfAre you kidding? Every dollar they spend on me is one they can't spend hurting citizens.06:27
summatusmentiseven though you're in the end, helping a system06:28
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derfSo is everyone who pays taxes.06:29
nelsonSo is everyone who votes.06:29
derfThat was my next example.06:29
summatusmentisyes, to an extent. I'm not trying to rip into you, just genuinely curious06:29
derfOr, if you want to get down to it, everyone who _doesn't_ pick up arms and try to storm the capitol.06:29
derfI know what the government does with the stuff I build, and I've got no problem with any of it.06:30
summatusmentisI guess that was my question, yes06:30
derfI suppose some day they could ask me for something I did have a problem with, but I'm a civilian. I can say "no".06:30
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summatusmentisI suppose that's true, I assumed you were working for a company that got contracts06:32
derfI am.06:32
summatusmentisso you get enough leeway to decide if you want to contribute to the contract?06:32
summatusmentisor just end up leaving the company06:33
derfI'm usually the one writing the proposals these days.06:33
derfBut yes, if it came down to it, there's lots of contractors out there.06:33
summatusmentisfair enough06:33
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acydlordsprint is shafting all their data/phone users07:40
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rm_youI've been thinking about getting a data plan for my phone...07:54
rm_youanyone know of an actual DECENT data plan?07:54
rm_youi dont know how to interpret the consumer BS they throw at us07:55
rm_youit doesnt actually have any stats, they just say shit that would impress soccer moms07:55
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rm_youis that *really* unlimited?07:57
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acydlordthe sprint data plans were decent08:00
acydlordbut now they are putting caps on them and threatening to terminate service if you go over08:00
acydlordt-mobiles data network sucks08:01
acydlordit's slow and spotty08:01
* rwhitby dreams of an Australian data plan that is not limited with hefty excess usage fees ...08:01
acydlordthis recent change in the data plans over at sprint doesnt give me high hopes for xohm08:02
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rm_youso basically, give up on getting a decent data plan? >_>08:11
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ds3nelson: Nice08:16
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RussBDoes anyone know why Aislerot hasn't gotten ported to Maemo 4.x yet?08:30
RussBI keep waiting for someone to get around to recompiling it or something.. (as I don't have the knowledge myself to do it).08:30
GAN800Somebody did08:31
qwerty12It has been. A long time ago now. Check the debfarm repo.08:31
GAN800look harder08:31
RussBWell, I looked on the maemo download site and on the official Hildon page...08:31
RussBYou know, just the obvious places. :-)08:31
rm_youcheck gronmayer?08:32
GAN800'aisleriot os2008'08:33
GAN800'obvious' by an interesting definition.08:33
RussBHmm. Still looking...08:36
RussBAhh, I found a thread from April with Christian Persch from
qwerty12Please tell me, how is it possible to miss the first result?08:38
RussBThe thread with the random packages to install?08:39
RussBhave you actually gotten that working? Or are you just assuming that's correct?08:39
qwerty12The thread with *the* aisleriot packages to install?08:39
qwerty12Yes, I have had it working.08:39
qwerty12Well, it ain't just me who has had it working ;)08:40
GAN800lol. . . .08:41
RussBAnd it ain't just me asking about it... :-)08:41
qwerty12Easiest way would be to go to gronmayer, add the debfarm repo and go to application manager and install aisleriot from the list.08:42
qwerty12The debfarm is a repo which really should be gone and the packages on extras btw, very very unstable (probably because it's on a free web hosting)08:43
GAN800qwerty12, who maintains it?08:43
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GAN800poke them in the eye and tell them to fix it.08:43
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, This guy here:
GAN800poke him in the eye for me08:44
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qwerty12Will do08:44
RussBYep, thanks! I'm adding it...08:45
RussBGAN800, qwerty12, rm_you - Installed and working! Thanks for your help!08:49
RussBI can now better keep myself occupied while taking a dump.08:50
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rm_youGeneralAntilles: I'm... at a loss08:52
rm_younot sure which ticket to work on08:52
rm_youI'm failing at figuring out #259308:53
GAN800fix it! fix it! fix it!08:54
GAN800fix it! fix it! fix it!08:54
rm_youwill work on it...08:54
rm_youI need a better way to do logging08:54
rm_youthan calling exec() on "echo debugtext > /tmp/mylog" >_>08:54
rm_youhow do I get my app to output to syslog?08:54
qwerty12Not sure if it would work here though.08:56
rm_youapparently... include syslog.h08:56
RussBGot sidetracked with all the other repositories on that list... Browser Extras looks very useful as well!09:03
RussBThanks again! bye!09:03
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GAN800Browser-extras needs to be pushes to just Extras.09:03
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acydlordmost of those need to be pushed to just Extras09:10
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rm_youcan never get this thing to crash when i need it to09:22
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rm_youNokia-N800-51-3 DSME: error reading fd (11): Resource temporarily unavailable09:27
rm_youanyone know what might be causing that?09:27
rm_youfailing to read file descriptor 11? how would i find out which file that is supposed to reference09:27
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rm_youok, got logs from a normal start and a crash start09:39
qwerty12s**tf**k, has anyone here daemonized a python app?09:47
rm_youdunno, but I'll demonize your python app :P09:49
qwerty12Heh, lol, I've got the actual program to work when I invoke it manually from the command line but I can't get init to start it up :/. I've set up all the scripts etc correctly, just can't figure it out lol09:50
qwerty12Doh, I know what I did.09:50
* qwerty12 slaps myself09:51
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rm_youi need to get back to coding in python09:51
rm_youi miss it09:51
rm_youbut i need a project09:51
qwerty12Meh, I can't code in python anyway, this is just stolen code from lots of places and pimped by me :P09:53
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JaffaMorning, all09:57
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rm_youline 29 is the last output from advanced-backlight...10:07
rm_youand on like 46 is where hildon-desktop dies10:07
DekaritaeIs there a way to enable applications like File Manager and Leafpad to browse outside of the home directory?10:16
qwerty12For leafpad, you can try the one without any hildonisation: (Older though)
qwerty12As for File Manager, you can make a symlink but I hear reports of some apps going crazy10:19
DekaritaeWhat about setting a file association so that text files open in Leafpad?10:20
qwerty12Google dbus-switchboard10:20
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rm_youDekaritae: yeah, you can make a symlink to / somewhere in your home directory... but then you will have to disable metalayer-crawler10:22
rm_you/etc/init.d/metalayer-crawler0 stop10:22
DekaritaeI've already disabled it10:22
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rm_youwatching spider-man on cable...10:29
rm_youwillem defoe just said the exact same line in the exact same way with the exact same body expression as in Boondock Saints >_<10:30
rm_youI need to clip those side-by-side and put it on youtube :P10:30
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acydlordwhich line?10:36
rm_youi forget exactly what he said now, it's been like 10 minutes :P10:38
rm_youbut when he's like... "gah, i don't know what to do! someone tell me what to do"10:38
rm_youor something like that10:38
rm_youin both cases, it's his internal good-evil struggle :P10:39
rm_youin both cases, it's deciding on the fate of a vigilante10:39
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DekaritaeDamn teenagers out side makin a ruckus10:48
rm_yoummm spiderman getting his ass kicked by the green goblin... is HD! :P10:49
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rm_youGeneralAntilles: yoyoyo10:59
rm_youGeneralAntilles: do me a favor10:59
rm_youor anyone who uses advanced-backlight11:00
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aquatixmorning all11:02
aquatixrm_you: hm?11:02
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blueskiesokieIs there a repository that has corkscrew or something like it?11:04
rm_youwget && mv /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/advanced-backlight.so11:07
rm_youaquatix: do that on your n800 as root :P11:07
aquatixrm_you: new version?11:07
aquatix[n810 ;) ]11:07
rm_youaquatix: unload the old version first11:07
rm_youn810 whatever :P11:07
rm_youunload, run that, reload11:07
rm_youand immediately try to change the volume11:07
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rm_you>_> damn11:11
aquatixtapped the little `less volume' button twice, then it crashed11:12
acydlordi borked advanced backlight bigtime earlier11:14
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blueskiesokieQwerty12: thanks11:14
rm_youacydlord: ?11:14
acydlordit was super sunny out, and i usually let my n810 auto adjust the backlight11:15
acydlordand i accidentally set it to full, so i couldnt see my screen, when i went to tap it to turn it down the menu just kept opening and closing11:17
acydlordhavent been able to recreate it though so i think it was partly due to the fact that it was 115 out and my tablet was at least 100 itself11:18
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acydlordbut for the most part the n810 handles extreme heat pretty well11:19
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rm_youdamnit, this bug is kicking my ass11:21
acydlordwhat the butt, my dvd-rom drive vanished from xp11:22
rm_youacydlord: open regedit and search for "lowerfilters"11:22
qwerty12I never use mine anymore :/11:22
acydlordi was actually about to use mine to watch a roomates movie11:22
rm_youhere just read this:
rm_youany chance you have Roxio CD burning software?11:23
rm_youwell, anyway, do that11:23
rm_youjust do it manually11:23
acydlordit was working till i had to put the xp disk in to install a postscript driver11:23
rm_youdunno wtf their guided thing is11:23
acydlorddunno wtf their guided thing is either, i've had to do it manually before11:24
qwerty12You don't have AnyDVD installed?11:24
rm_youah, you've done this before?11:24
rm_youI've had to do this like 40 times, lol...11:24
* rm_you worked as a computer repair technician for about 10 years11:24
rm_you... since I was 11. seriously :)11:25
acydlordi still work as a repair tech off and on11:25
acydlordthat was an easy fix =x11:27
acydlordwent into the device manager and reset the drive letter11:28
acydlordand bam it popped back up11:28
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chibiAcydnow that was odd11:30
chibiAcydwent to play the dvd and my display adapter went out11:30
chibiAcydi really need to get a new psu for my main linux box11:31
rm_youi really need 5 million dollars11:32
rm_youerr, well it would be very helpful11:33
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qwerty12rm_you, Sure, know any banks with weak security?11:33
rm_youdoubt we could get 5 mill from one bank11:33
rm_youdoubt we could get one mil11:34
qwerty12We'll target a chain then11:34
qwerty12But I sense one flaw in this plan, THIS CHANNEL IS LOGGED! ARRGH!11:34
* aquatix wants in11:35
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chibiAcydits easy to get 5mil11:36
qwerty12Now, this sounds like someone talking from experience, tell us the secret11:36
chibiAcydone of Chase's lovely outsorced offices got around 6mil collectively11:37
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chibiAcydso just go work for a chase call center overseas11:37
qwerty12Any in London?11:37
* qwerty12 puts on evil grin11:37
chibiAcydpersonally i'm tempted to move to nigeria and sap money out of all the morons on the internet11:38
rm_youchibiAcyd: i don't think you need to actually be in nigeria :P11:38
qwerty12But I thought that money was for your dying uncle?! :O11:38
chibiAcydi got one of the scammers to buy me stuff off ebay and then gave them fake bank info11:39
chibiAcydi should get back into that hobby11:40
acydlordoh hey. windows booted back in faster than expected11:40
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acydlordi think i need to install more wireless cards in this machine, that way when one neighbors wireless bogs down I can use the next seamlessly11:47
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sven-tekis it possible to open N800's DISPLAY to other applications in the network? xhost+ or something?12:13
sven-tek... or setting up a vnc server, like vino in gnome?12:15
towoI'd just attempt using SSH and X-Forwarding from the N800.12:15
sven-teknever figured that out... i'll give it a try12:19
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sven-tekgee, that works12:33
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lardmanph5, lcuk: Did you see the latest on the PowerVR bug?12:38
pH5lardman: no..12:38
lardmana pointer to some code from Android12:39
lardmanbut it just looks like a complicated framebuffer driver, with mbx in the name12:39
pH5oh that. it's in the mainline kernel :/12:40
pH5yup, just a dumb fb driver12:40
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pH5intel 2700G is a companion chip to pxa27x cpus that contains a powervr12:41
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lardmanyeah, annoying naming :)12:41
lardmanmisleading naming :)12:41
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lcuki am starting to wonder if we actually have 3dinside ;)12:46
lardmanlcuk: I'm sure we do, remember what Kate said?!12:46
lcukyes (barely though, not fully functioning yet..)12:47
lardmanah I heard that it works, but the code is crappy and buggy and wouldn't be released like that12:50
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lardmanand equally there's no point in paying someone to rewrite it12:50
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lcukyes, she said she had seen in nokia12:52
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rm_youlcuk: yo12:59
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lcuk:D cool rm_you has that logging helped (note you should remove after you know it works)13:04
rm_youyeah it's all attached to a debug variable >_>13:05
rm_youanyways... no13:05
rm_youit isn't helping13:05
rm_youline 29 is the last thing my program outputs13:06
lcukyou sure, it shoes the dmse closing, is that right?13:06
rm_youline 45 shows hildon-desktop crashing13:06
rm_youlcuk: it does the same thing when it doesn't crash :/13:06
rm_youin fact, everything looks EXACTLY the same13:06
lcukexactly? you mean theres no more logging even though it doesnt crash?13:07
rm_youthe only difference is line 30+13:07
rm_youyeah, when it doesn't crash, it gets to line 29, and then... sits13:07
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rm_youand then i can do other stuff and it continues logging13:07
lcukscary - a google search for adv-backlight brings microsoft as first result :P13:07
rm_youwindows CE has an advanced-backlight module >_<13:08
rm_youlcuk: reading over IRC logs... you ever get around to writing a patch for the size of adv-backlight's buttons? :P13:15
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* lcuk whistles quietly, i downloaded it but got sidetracked with dr who..13:16
rm_youdoesnt the original applet have identically sized buttons? >_>13:16
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rm_youGeneralAntilles: I think I'm gonna start a bounty13:21
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rm_youI'll put up 20 bucks to anyone who submits a patch that puts advanced-backlight in a proper Hildon Menu thing13:22
rm_youwanna pitch in? :P13:22
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Jaffalcuk: quite right, it was worth getting distracted over.13:36
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lcukjaffa.o.m.g.  im not going to mention a single word of the plot, just simply jaw dropping13:40
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Jaffalcuk: aye. Can't wait till next week.13:41
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lcukdo you think the doctor gets into watching tv during the week when hes not fighting aliens and zips foreward in time to watch the rest of the series ;)13:42
Saviqyou're talking 'bout Doctor Who, guys?13:45
lcukyer but for the sake of others who havent seen recent eps, dont discuss plot13:46
Saviqsure, I haven't seen 'em yet, either13:47
lcukare you in the uk13:47
sven-tekanyone here played around with virtualgl or something like that to play 3d games on a n8x0?13:50
lcuksven-tek, virtualgl being software gl stack?13:50
sven-tekno, it is
sven-tekthe idea is, to use a high performance 3D capable PC and transport the rendered images to a client, e.g. a VNC Client.13:52
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lcuksven-tek, the problem i see with that implementation would be lack of 3d drivers, unless you know something the rest of us dont13:53
sven-tekI have nvidia with good 3D drivers.13:53
lcukahhh i see which direction, i was thinking of you directly on the device still13:53
JaffaWhat's the benefit VirtualGL gives you? You have a PC playing the game, which presumably has a monitor, and you need a fast network link. I don't, quite, get it.13:54
lcukno then, dont think its been suggested, could you get the framerate via vnc up there and rendered quickly?  remember the framebuffer on here doesnt like fullscreen updates of the 3d type13:54
lcuk2d type13:55
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sven-tekJaffa, i can go to nokia and tell them i made 3D work on N810. Get lots of money and run away as they play quake3d on their n810.13:56
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* rm_you grabs the newest who13:57
lcuksven-tek, why would nokia give you lots of money, they have 3d devices up and running in their ivory towers13:58
Saviqlcuk: no, I'm in poland13:58
lcuksaviq, how far behind are you - i suggest you find a way to catch up and watch everything.  if you are a who fan they are well worth it13:59
Saviqthe last one I've seen was The Unicorn and The Wasp14:00
Saviqso 3 eps behin14:00
lcukthat makes a nice afternoon of viewing then :)14:00
sven-teklcuk, and multitouch i suppose...14:02
rm_youSaviq: got at least the library to go14:02
rm_youplus last nights14:02
lcuksven-tek, don't know for sure about that, but it would seem logical that most large research labs have many magical technologies hiding away14:02
lcukim still waiting for true proper lcd hardware multitouch :) instead of just 3 voxels for rgb, they use 4:  RGB+sensor   every single pixel has a light sensor and they know when its covered up.  should be possible using the same tech as current displays just bidirectional14:05
JaffaOur luck says we'd only be able to read 1 pixel inbound every second, due to "bandwidth constraints"14:06
AStormlcuk: how does that react to light?14:06
AStormanyway, capacitive screens can do multitouch not-so-expensively14:06
AStormalthough they have other drawbacks14:07
AStormI'd love to see a portable sonic screen (sound-wave based)14:07
AStormthat should do fairly good multitouch too14:07
lcukjaffa, it should work quite nicely i read a paper on it a while back14:08
lcukand astorm, what do you mean react to light? it would react just like the CCD sensor in your camera cos thats all it is14:09
AStormI mean, would it work in low-light conditions?14:09
AStormor high-light?14:09
lcukwell since the lcd is backlit and you always have some leakage you always have *some* light around to pickup on14:10
lcukhigh light is fine because your finger would cover it up..14:10
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JaffaWould be very cool if it could be used as a camera: look at the screen and you're dead on for the webcam. That'd be *very* cool tech14:10
AStormwhat about medium light then? :P14:10
AStormJaffa: w/o any lenses? crazy and low-res14:10
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AStormyou'd be totally out of focus14:11
AStormit could be used as a motion sensor though14:11
AStorm(heck, it is one)14:11
AStormlcuk: I'd improve on the tech by using infrared instead of light14:11
AStormthat should work better14:11
AStormalthough more expensively14:11
lcukwell its still light14:12
lcukyou mean an IR backlight?14:12
lcuktype thing14:12
AStormno, what for?14:12
AStormyour hands emit or block IR14:12
lcukto reflect from your finger back into the sensor14:12
lcukbecause then you have a single screen without the need for any outside tech14:13
sven-teki hate touchscreen, they are not responsive14:13
AStormsven-tek: they are great for some uses14:13
sven-tekiam much slower with touchscreen than with keys14:13
AStormheh, that's just you14:13
AStormthey are not a replacement for key input14:13
sven-tekyeah, touchscreens are great for mahjongg14:13
AStormblah, and drawing14:14
AStormand entering handwriting14:14
lcukhere is the original LED one i saw, which actually just used the LEDs themselves as sensors14:14
sven-tekcool tech14:14
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AStormlcuk: note he uses very bright leds14:14
AStormyou'd need an excellent sensor14:14
AStormto use normal backlight levels14:14
lcukbut the idea is there, hence my original post "im still waiting"14:15
AStormand the sensor with the controller would have to be fairly fast14:15
lcukjust like most modern CCD sensors14:15
sven-tektouching a black area in an jpg is not possible then?14:15
rm_youdoes he have other sensors there14:15
rm_youor is he using the LCDs themselves?14:15
AStormlcuk: not really, more like hq digital camera14:15
AStormnot your plain webcam (low sensitivity) or scanner (slow)14:16
lcukleds themselves - when they get light on them the current drop or whatever it is changes14:16
rm_youerr yeah LEDs14:16
AStormfotodiodes actually? :)14:16
lcukIn 1977, Forrest M. Mims reminds us in one of his "Engineer's Notebooks" that LEDs can also be used as photodiodes...14:16
AStormlcuk: the problem is... how do you detect the distance from the screen?14:16
lcukyou dont - its touch14:16
AStormlcuk: no, it's not14:17
AStormit's reflected light14:17
glassit's shadow14:17
AStormglass: or shadow, yes, depends14:17
glassso.. need good ambient light14:17
AStormglass: these are actually reflected light14:17
glassfrom the led itself?14:17
AStormno, from the 1000W light source behind them? ;)14:17
AStormfrom the led14:18
lcukor others or the backlight - and something astorm just said, IR light - put that in with the backlight and use that14:18
AStormI'm positive the effect isn't sensitive enough14:18
AStormplain physics tells you :)14:18
lcukits being worked on though :)14:18
AStormor you'll get a lot of noise14:18
sven-tekperhaps you can modulate some frequency on the rgb light, so the sensor can distinguish the signal14:18
glassthats neat then, but dunno how workable as anything else than touchpad(without screen)14:18
AStormglass: think OLED14:18
AStormshrink the leds down, make a screen that reacts to touch14:19
AStormfairly workable14:19
AStormyou could even apply this to any screen14:19
AStormusing transparent photodiodes14:19
* AStorm goes to file the patent ;P14:19
lcukyes astorm, RGB+input per pixel14:19
AStormI suspect it won't work anyway ;P14:20
AStormthe resolution can be 1/3 of the screens14:21
AStormor even less14:21
AStormjust how much you want14:21
lcukwhy 1/3?   1 sensor per pixel14:21
AStormwhat for?14:21
AStormthat would be expensive14:21
AStormand touch isn't that precise14:22
lcukwhy expensive, its part of the same fab process as the lcd panel itself14:22
AStormyou need about 1/2 the size of the stylus14:22
lcuktouch is normally MORE precise - on this device its got something like... umm lemme look it up14:22
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AStormno, it's not14:23
AStormit won't ever be14:23
AStormyou can't touch with pixel precision anyway14:23
lcuk3585 pixels X,   3195 pixels Y14:23
lcukthe sensor is VERY capable on our nokias and we have to downsample14:24
lcukthis is common in touch displays14:24
AStormbut anyway, what's the diff?14:24
AStormwhat is the accuracy for?14:24
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lcukbecause its free :)14:25
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AStormblah, but not in the CCD design14:25
lcukand the touch display people have standard tech that can handle resolutions which have gone beyond LCDs.  the panel people dont know what LCD its going to be used with14:26
lcukno, the ccd design would use 1 sensor per pixel14:26
lcukno alignment issues or drifting and always at the correct resolution14:26
AStormthat's expensive14:26
AStormit can use less14:26
AStormnote, 800x480 sensor is fairly expensie14:27
AStormsuch sensors are used in scanners14:27
AStormcost is like, 50$/unit14:27
lcukbut it will be made with the same fab process as current LCD boards, why would it be more expensive14:27
AStormbecause the materials are14:27
lcuk? the same materials14:27
AStormand it has to be transparent CCD, increasing the cost14:27
lbthi - I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: object '' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.14:27
lbtanyone know anything? :)14:28
AStormlcuk: seen any 800x480 OLED LCD lately?14:28
AStormthat small?14:28
lcukim not thinking oled - im thinking lcd14:28
AStormOLED is cheaper LCD14:28
lcukjust like we currently have - oled is still not workable14:28
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AStormnormal LCD would be uberexpensive at these sizes14:28
lcukthe lcd i have in front of me is 19" and very cheap14:28
AStormand very hard to produce14:28
AStormand what's the dot size?14:29
AStormwait, wait14:29
lcuknot 225dpi, but i have a 4" one here14:29
AStormLCD... no, that's diff tech than CCD14:29
AStormCCDs are diodes14:29
lcukLEDs are diodes as well14:29
AStormCMOS light sensors are cheaper, but less sensitive14:29
AStormLEDs are expensive :)14:29
AStormLCDs are cheap in comparison14:30
AStormactually, a capacitive screen could use similar tech to LCDs14:30
AStormjust have a coat of transparent transistors14:30
AStormanyway, really, CCD touch sensor will be expensive14:31
AStormand hard to mass produce14:31
AStormunless OLEDs get cheap and available14:32
lcukwhich is something all the related companies are working towards14:32
AStormyes, for oled screen, traditional touch sensors won't work good14:32
lcukccd is not hard to mass produce - just look at how much of the world is covered by a ccd right now14:33
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AStormit is at large sizes and resolutions14:33
AStormyou need a fairly large CCD matrix (not of too high res though)14:33
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lcukdo you think they fab these things in tiny chip sized sections? they make entire sheets of the things like cpus14:33
AStormthey do make these things in sheets, but14:34
AStormthey're made using the same tech as CPUs14:34
AStormesp. CMOS sensors14:34
AStorm(CCDs are different technology)14:34
AStorm(but related)14:34
AStormproblem will be scaling the sensor up14:34
AStormand making it transparent14:34
AStormw/o OLED which could react to light14:35
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lcukwhy make it transparent? the aim is to sit it amongst the light generating voxels not infront of14:35
AStormthen you have to make it tinier14:36
AStormand have light focus on it somehow14:36
AStorm= add microlenses?14:37
lcukwhat? like 12megapixel in a tiny 5mm^2 area?14:37
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AStormsee, you need a lens t have enough light to focus on that tiny sensor14:37
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AStormit's easier to make a big one and transparent14:38
AStormhopefully sensitive enough14:38
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lcuknot really, sensitivity depends upon refresh rate, slow refresh == more light, its been the same and theres lots of camera engineers around who work magic in signal processing around the world to make it work14:40
AStormnot really14:40
AStormyou need it to have high bit depth14:40
lcukanyway, like i said originally, im still waiting but my tummy is rumbling so im grabbing breakfast14:40
AStormat least 4-bit14:40
AStormand low noise14:40
lcukbit depth comes from the a2d converter14:40
AStormsensitivity is related to amount of light14:40
AStormneeded to excite the transistor or diode14:41
AStormnot to speed14:41
AStormlcuk: yes and no, there's always some floor :)14:41
AStormand these are all quantum effects too14:41
lbthi - I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: object '' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.14:41
lbtanyone know anything? :)14:41
AStormnot me :P14:42
lbtguessed not :)14:42
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lcuklbt, try those people mention the same, but i dont use sb2 (or sb1) so dunno14:42
lbtOh, if I change LD_PRELOAD I can get different effects.14:43
lbtbasically it looks like it's simulating some kind of overlay fs14:43
lbtit does also differ with suid commands too (eg mount)14:44
lbtoh, btw, lcuk - I asked on -dev a while back.... are you making the code for your scrolling notes thingy available (david greaves here - gtk rotation/finger scrolling etc)14:46
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rm_youlbt: I keep poking him about that as well... it would be awesome if he would just GPL it, but it looks like we may get a QT style dual license at best14:50
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rm_youlbt: and he doesn't seem to be in any sort of hurry <_<14:50
lbtrm_you: fair enough, each to their own :)14:52
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rm_youlbt: dunno... i almost feel personally insulted now when people release closed source software <_<15:01
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rm_youat least, for personal projects15:01
lcukim not releasing yet because thats not a personal priority - i would have to do a lot more work towards packaging and actual software finalization than just me relearning c15:04
lbtthat's not really true15:05
lcukwhy not?15:05
lbtyou can literally just post up the code15:05
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lbtI agree that end users won't be able to use it15:05
lbtbut other devs can15:05
Jaffaif it's interesting enough, people will help you improve the build process etc.15:06
lbtand some of them/us are good at packaging/docs etc15:06
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JaffaOh, I like michael's bubbles logo designs.15:07
lbtif you don't want to release then you don't have too - seriously; to each their own.... OTOH15:07
lbtif you aren't releasing code because 'people might not like it' or "it's messy"15:07
lcuki know those are the immense positive aspects of release, but im not even sure what i want to do with the code (there is more than just this device) and keep looking for something which allows best of both15:08
lbtAre you thinking of doing a proprietary app?15:09
lcuknot specifically for this platform, but im thinking more than just maemo15:09
lbtah, so multiple device support?15:09
lbtsome open, some proprietary?15:09
lcukthats a long time in the future but if i release now and accept code modifications it prevents me doing things in future in closed environments15:10
lbtNot necessarily15:10
lbtYou need a copyright assignment15:10
lbtwhich may limit contributors15:11
lcukbut i keep swaying15:11
* lcuk flipflops constantly on this15:11
lcuki got as far as putting gpl headers on all the files and going to the garage upload the other day..15:12
lcukbut then bottled it15:12
lbtUntil you accept your first change then you really don't have a future problem - you fully own the code you wrote and you don't have to continue to release changes15:13
lbtany code you release will always be available under the GPL.15:13
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lbtso there's no taking back (of the initial version anyhow)15:13
lcukthats actually ok i understand that15:14
lbtOK - never sure if people get the implications15:14
lbtI've no idea what you know - and it sounds like you're not an old hand at GPL...15:14
lcukim not, but ive spent long enough observing from the sidelines15:15
lbtwas just going to add that no-one can take the gpl version and compete commercially15:15
lcukyes they can, but they are under the same rules15:15
lcukthats also not a consideration, its getting caught supporting a feature which was transitory15:16
lbtwell, by commercially, I meant they can't take your GPL-released code and sell it as a closed app15:16
lcuksure they can (at least until we catch them)15:16
lbtHah :)15:16
lcukdavid, do you have a vid of your gtk stuff?15:17
lbtgosh no!!15:17
lbtI'm just writing a noddy shopping list :)15:17
lcukreleased it yet?15:17
lcuk:D heh15:17
lbtbut if you want the code I'll email it to you15:17
lbtit's in a git repository15:18
lcukwhat im actually thinking is putting all the base code out there to the graphics library and books part and seeing what people can do with it but just holding back on my graffiti app (which is looking better and better everyday)15:18
lcukif we can get people used to working with rapid applications on maemo maybe the future for other things will be rosey15:19
lbthey, that's cool... maybe you could throw up a simple app to get people started though?15:19
lbtSeriously I was looking at the base library as a launcher...15:19
lbttogether with finger scrolling15:19
lcukyer exactly - mini library for setting up and drawing to the screen with the text reader thing and a few of the other modules ive made - and then i can carry on with whats important to me and just link to the latest bit of a lib that can be expanded upon by anyone15:20
lbtand I wondered it could be made to scale in a non linear way which gives a 'lensing' appearance15:20
lcukand ill forever use the lgpl lib in whatever i need :)15:20
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lbtgotta go for a bit (wife had an op on friday and needs some tlc... + a cup of tea) back l8r15:21
lcukscaling is easy, before i had the graffiti wall i had the sketches all scaling in response to user touch15:21
lcukalright lbt :) nice to chat15:21
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lcukwho wants to do this VB work for me whilst i cleanse the code to release? ;)15:22
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lcukyer aquatix my alter ego is a visual basic developer..15:23
lcukits served me well since my amiga died, but its always felt like methadone15:23
aquatixwell, i'm a sinner too15:23
aquatixi program php ;)15:24
lcuklol am i meant to look up or down on you?15:24
aquatixbut that was as hobby15:24
aquatixmoving on to python and such :)15:24
rm_youI do VB for work :P15:27
rm_youits icky, but I get paid for it :)15:27
* aquatix did java for work for years15:27
* rm_you would love to do Java for work <_<15:27
rm_youJava is a language I can actually DO things in15:27
rm_youI hate C so much15:28
rm_youand the more I use it and get used to it, the more I hate it15:28
lcukcan do anything in vb that i can do in any other language15:28
rm_youlcuk: besides be cross-platform compatible <_<15:28
lcukand its got runtime type information so i can do more than i can do with c15:28
rm_youunless you're in .NET and make sure you only use libs that work in Mono15:28
lcukup until 6 months ago that wasnt a consideration15:28
aquatixlcuk: i absolutely positively hate the VB syntax15:29
* lcuk spits on .net and then throws it into the bin15:29
rm_youI thought .net was supposed to be cool :/15:29
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aquatixand VBA is even worse15:29
lcuksome people say the same about french, but its still used as a language15:29
rm_youall my windoze fanboi friends go on about how awesome it is15:29
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* aquatix preferred delphi15:30
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rm_youand i go on about how blind they are for worshiping the mighty Gates, so whatev :P15:30
lcukthey go on about how awesome it is until they come across one of the many bugs in the interface15:30
rm_youthey prolly thing they're features15:30
lcuk5 minute delays here or there, strange little bugs which you cannot cure15:31
rm_youdamn windoze fanboiz15:31
infobotrm_you meant: damn micro$oft fanboiz15:31
aquatixrm_you: yeah, never could wrap my head around that concept15:31
rm_youthey try to make me jealous of their MSDN subscriptions15:32
lcukrm_you, do your friends write large projects in .net?15:32
rm_youand then i remind them I would rather shoot myself than run any of the software in there15:32
lcukMSDN and the whole .net documentation took a massive step backwards - it used to be that i could press f1 and get proper context sensitive help15:32
rm_youlcuk: no, they spend most of their time being bill gates wannabes15:32
rm_youfortunately I can only think of two of them15:33
rm_youI do also have sane friends :)15:33
rm_youlike johnx!15:33
* rm_you misses johnx15:33
* lcuk chose to rejoin his c roots rather than work in .shit15:34
rm_you<lcuk> i got as far as putting gpl headers on all the files and going to the garage upload the other day..15:34
lcukand now im slowly working through 8 years of code tested in vb and porting it to c15:34
rm_youit's this easy... create garage project... svn checkout... copy all of your source in... svn add *; svn commit15:35
rm_youdone :P15:35
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lcuknot really, what about the code i dont want to post15:37
rm_youpost that too? :P15:37
rm_youwhat don't you want to post?15:37
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rm_youoh, and I'm still down for helping get your ebook reader thing displaying pdfs :P15:38
lcuknow that would be worthwhile :)15:38
rm_youso release your code :P15:38
lcukand that doesnt intefere with the other side of what i want to do15:39
* rm_you has been waiting for at least a week15:39
lcukbut ive got a metric shitload of code to write today thats not c15:39
lcuksince lastweek you realised its been your lifelong ambition to write a pdf reader ..15:40
rm_youlcuk: it took me a little bit to get used to "release early, often"....15:40
rm_youso get used to it15:40
rm_younot life ambition... month's ambition15:40
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* lcuk thinks life was easier back in the day. source didnt matter15:41
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rm_youback when people were willing to accept sub-optimal software because they had no other choice? >_>15:42
* rm_you doesn't miss that15:42
lcuki dont think apples software is suboptimal15:43
lcukwheres the code for most of that?15:43
lcukor photoshops?15:43
rm_youdo NOT get me started on Apple15:43
lcukor any one of thousands of software products in use worldwide right now15:43
rm_youphotoshop is great... but locked to windoze and mac, when it could easily be cross-platform15:43
rm_youMac is already halfway there15:43
rm_yousame with autocad15:44
lcukwhy should any of these companies open up the code, it does not get them anywhere just yet15:44
rm_younot saying THEY should, just pointing out how the software has problems that people who care (like me and many others) could work on and fix15:45
rm_youare you planning to use this application to make a living? >_>15:46
lcuki agree entirely, but (lets look closer to home) do nokia listen and update and change and fix their software?15:46
rm_younot really15:46
rm_youat least, not enough15:46
rm_youI thoroughly believe all of ITOS should be open15:46
rm_youITOS isn't what they're profiting from anyway, they sell the hardware15:47
rm_youso what is the point of keeping the software closed? >_>15:47
rm_youif people can improve the software, thereby making their hardware more desirable, wouldn't that put them in a better position?15:48
rm_youit irks me DAILY that so much of their code is still closed :/15:48
lcukthats because you are usign a feature that is closed (for whatever stupid reason)15:49
infobotrm_you meant: it irks me HOURLY that so much of their code is still closed :/15:49
infobotrm_you meant: it irks me CONSTANTLY that so much of their code is still closed :/15:49
rm_youit would still be aggrivating, though admittedly not quite as immediately so, if the closed code in question weren't directly impeding the development of my own app, yes15:50
rm_youwow, that was a very long and horribly structured sentence15:50
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lcukyou are replicating functionality which has been chosen to be closed, im more frustrated by lack of binary15:52
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lcukif i were rewriting autocad i could not expect nor push for the source for it because i know its closed15:53
lcukbut that would not exactly prevent me from making a cad program15:54
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rm_youit would if the cad program had to interface with a cad server somewhere due to hardware constraints, and that server was also closed source >_<15:54
lcukbut if the interface was documented would it matter about the source?15:57
rm_youyes, if there were features you needed that didn't exist in the server and you needed to add them :)15:57
lcuk(like you have all the interface specs for dmse and gtk and everything)15:57
rm_youthe specs we have for dsme are useless15:57
rm_youand for the Hildon GTK stuff15:58
lcukthen you would be making a none standard server which the original program couldnt use15:58
rm_youa bunch of the Hildon docs are just blank15:58
rm_youjust additional functionality, totally backwards compatible :P15:58
lcukin a critical environment can you guarantee that?15:59
rm_youlike adding the ability to manually disable the light sensor dimming, or to change the "dimmed" light level15:59
rm_youextra options that aren't utilized will not interfere15:59
rm_youit's done with all manner of projects15:59
lcukare you sure, the levels might be fixed in hardware and without being a fully trained engineer may end up shorting something out and setting fire to your pocket15:59
rm_youyou only run into problems if you REMOVE functionality, or change existing functions15:59
lcukits the same with the battery charging stuff people keep talking about15:59
rm_youit's most definitely in software >_>16:00
rm_youif the source was open i could prove it :P16:00
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rm_youand if it was in hardware, the source would prove that too16:00
lcukwhat i mean is the limits to the software might be there because communication with the hardware people let them know those limits16:00
rm_youso i would know not to mess with it16:00
lcukwhat if those limits change iwth different hardware revisions (new supplier etc) could you be certain the software supplied by you fits all16:01
rm_youi'll assume we're talking theoretically?16:02
lcukof course16:02
rm_youbecause I *know* it's in software :P16:02
lcukyes, just like its possible in software to set various things which screw up the display scanlines and stuff - its entirely possible with your software to render the device unusable16:03
rm_youif it didn't work with all hardware, then any good maintainer would reject those patches16:03
lcukdo you have hardware for all revisions of n8x0?16:03
rm_youi *know* it's in software, because fanoush's custom kernels let us bypass DSME for that stuff and do it manually :)16:03
rm_youno, but before I release I make sure it has been tested on all of the hardware :)16:04
lcukbut nokia have not sanctioned any of those - a user has to change their kernel to do so - which an average joe would do about as often as they replace windows with linux16:04
rm_youwhich is why one upstream patch to DSME would be a much better solution16:05
rm_youwhich is why i want the source open in the first place :P16:05
lcukbut you have the dmse flags to set, however you write your interface is up to you surely?16:05
rm_younot enough16:05
rm_youDSME doesn't support setting custom dim levels16:06
rm_youor turning off the lightmeter dimming16:06
rm_youbut those flags would be easily addable16:06
rm_youif the source were open16:06
rm_youthey just didn16:06
rm_youthey just didn't include the proper controls in the dsme interface16:06
rm_youcan change the dim timeout, but not what the dim brightness level is16:08
rm_youand no way to deal at all with the light sensor dimming16:08
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rm_youand I know for a fact that DSME is handling those things, there just isn't a provided interface for it, because Nokia didn't think to add one, and I can't do it for them because the source is closed....16:10
lcukwhats the datestamp on that dmsetest?16:10
rm_youall i need is --dimlevel16:10
lcukis it possible they just havent yet released a later version which does16:10
lcukthat talks about the cover state - 770 only?16:10
rm_youthis is on my n80016:10
rm_youand is exactly the same on n810, as it is part of os200816:10
lcukwhich doesnt have a sensor?16:11
rm_youdatestamp is dec 7, 200716:11
rm_youget the output from n810, is exactly the same16:11
rm_youand dim level should be available on anything, even back to 77016:11
lcuki believe you :)16:11
rm_youyou see my frustration? >_>16:11
rm_youif they gave me the source I could have it fixed inside the day16:12
lcukso its the dmse code you want, not the backlight applet16:12
rm_youI want the backlight applet for a different reason16:12
lcukthe same dmse code which does all the talking directly to hardware16:12
lcukyou want to know how they do the fancy widget inside menu thing that you keep asking about16:13
rm_youthe backlight applet contains code that somehow massages some very strange widgets into a GtkMenu >_<16:13
lcukare you sure its a gtkmenu?16:13
rm_younot 100%...16:13
rm_you"IRC with Timeless concerning GTK stuff with the sound applet:"16:14
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lcukso they created their own custom menu item which essentially subclasses the basic menu item (or at least implements its interface)16:15
rm_youas you can see, I got lost fairly quickly in that conversation16:15
rm_youI think they rewrote the entire gtkmenu system16:16
rm_youlike, their own version16:16
rm_youI started working on that myself16:16
lcukyer its common with lots of systems16:16
rm_youbut i don't know nearly enough about GTK16:16
jottrm_you: the important part is the "hildon-status-bar-popup" that what i also traced when i tried to find out how to get a slider in a sb applet..16:16
rm_youI'll give you $20 if you make it work :P16:16
rm_youjott: i'm already using that kind of container16:17
rm_youjust can't get it to look/behave like the other applets16:17
lcukrm_you, perhaps you may need to sidetrack away from maemo.  have you tried looking around to see if people made active menus using gtk anywhere else16:17
lcukand do you know of any16:18
rm_youand asked in #gtk+ a lot16:18
rm_youas I told timeless, people in #gtk+ told me it would require a gigantic hack16:18
jottthe gtk menu stuff has basically to be replicated afaiu...16:18
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lcukrequire a hack, but not gigantic16:18
rm_youpretty much completely16:18
rm_youcompletely replacing GtkMenu? >_>16:19
jotti wonder if it's an lgpl violation on nokias side :)16:19
rm_youI started with just menuitem16:19
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lcukjott, doubt it if they have reimplimented it16:19
rm_youjott: well, unless they open their code we can't prove it :P16:19
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* Stskeeps ponders idly if gnustep would be nice on a tablet16:19
jottrm_you: well there are ways to prove it without the source :)16:20
jottlcuk: well when they derived their implementation from the gtkmenu one.....16:20
AStormStskeeps: nope16:20
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rm_youheh, that would be convenient :P16:20
rm_youwell, anyway, i really need to sleep16:20
StskeepsAStorm: too many right clicks is my primary concern :P16:20
AStormgnustep is ugly regardless of input devices available to it16:20
lcukthey used the same interface - its only a user control16:20
AStormStskeeps: I'd love modified awesome 3 on the tablet16:20
lcukok rm_you :) gnite16:20
jottrm_you: night :)16:20
AStormadapt it to work better with pens16:21
rm_youBUT, as a standing offer, I will give $20 to any person that submits a patch to advanced-backlight that makes it look and behave like all of the other applets16:21
rm_youworking on getting more to that bounty, but i'm poor at the moment :)16:21
lcukrm_you, before you sleep - one thing, there is an option menu which has ticks etc - if the code is open then perhaps you should look at how that differs from a normal menu item16:22
jottlcuk: if they gone to gtkmenu.c and took some parts of it and put it in their (closed) implementation that would be a (l)gpl violation16:22
StskeepsAStorm: isn't it sortof keyboard-centric or is it actually navigatable with mouse?16:22
lcukonce you know how its different then you could possibly adapt to put a whole scrollbar in16:22
rm_youlcuk: which is that>16:22
AStormStskeeps: working on improving mouse capabilities of it16:23
rm_youi have been looking for 6 months for a program like that16:23
lcukim not sure, but doesnt gtk have proper tick menus like any other menuing system?16:23
rm_youoh... yeah, that may just be built in as a type16:23
jottlcuk: they are all gtkmenuitems, you could write your own gtkmenuitem but afaiu the event management hinders proper mouse click propagation16:25
jottand apparently the #gtk folks did not know a simple solution either - so it's propbably not be THAT simple ;)16:26
lcukon windows i have a program called spy++ which allows me to see the window classes used created to make anything, is anything similar available for linux/gtk?16:26
jotthm not reallly sure, probably only on the x11 layer...16:27
jotthm g-inspector16:27
jottbut it's from 2005 :P16:28
lcukG-Inspector invokes a GTK+ application and inspects its objects. It shows widgets hierarchy, properties of widgets, etc. It can blink a specific widget instance so that you can identify it. It can handle Glib objects too.16:28
lcukage isnt important, good code is timeless16:28
jottlcuk: well depends on the compatiblity of gtk i suppose ;)16:29
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rm_younow, must sleep16:29
lcukjott, all that would be needed would be to run the correct nokia applet with ginspector in the way16:29
jottyeah might be worth a try to atleast see some basic inheritance ;)16:29
rm_youlcuk: I hope to see some code posted :P16:30
jottrm_you: bye16:30
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jottlcuk: i bet we end up in NokiaProprietaryWidget :)16:30
rm_youlcuk: just a note... as far as becoming locked into something because people are already using your program... release it with the standard "no warranty" clauses, and then tell people "tough luck, if i change stuff, you'll lose your work :P"16:31
rm_youand i bet people would rather have that than nothing :) I know I would16:31
* Jaffa decides to write his Hildon countdown timer app in Vala, do see what a Gtk+ high level, Java-like language is like.16:32
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* rm_you sleeps16:32
aquatixsleep well16:33
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: You about?17:16
lardmanGeneralAntilles: How do I edit the wiki?17:16
Jaffalardman: Log in, click "Edit" at the top of a page (on its little tab bar).17:19
Jaffalardman: see for syntax etc17:19
lardmanJaffa: hmm, I thought I was logged in17:19
lardmanJaffa: The old wiki always made me log in if I wasn't, is the new one different?17:19
JaffaCorrect. Over https it'll let anyone edit. Over http - at the moment - anonymous edits are banned.17:20
Jaffalardman: If you're not logged in, your IP address is stored.17:20
Jaffalardman: See, and its Talk page17:20
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lardmanah ok17:20
lardmanI just thought I was logged in as it han't asked me to do so17:21
lardmansorry :)17:21
timelylcuk: eh?17:21
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timelyJaffa / lardman,
timelyi'm confused17:28
timelyi don't recall the urlbar ever hiding on its own17:28
timelyunless you manually said not to show it in normal/full screen17:29
lbtfunny that, I just replied to the mailing list saying that my machine does the same thing17:30
lbtas in it shows the url box17:30
lardmanI thought it always just rescaled the window to fit in the gap left17:30
lardmanso the url bar would be there, etc.17:31
lbtOK, so if I start the browser, and then untick Menu->view->show toolbar->Normal screen17:33
lbtI lose the toolbar (of course)17:33
lbtthen clicking into a text box does not cause it to reappear17:33
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lbtsame for fullscreen...17:34
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timelyso the reporter's just very confused, right?17:36
lbtI think he's reporting a behaviour change between 2 versions17:36
timelybut what change?17:36
timelyafaik we've always behaved the same way17:36
timelyi'm not saying that what the reporter expects wouldn't be nice, however, it's not what we've ever done, and well.. i don't know what will come in the next version, but i think it's a new ui :)17:37
lbtI guess he thinks that the toolbar used to 'autohide'17:37
lbtwhen the keyboard pops up17:37
timelyafaik, it hasn't ever done that17:37
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lbtI'm new; only seen the current version17:38
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lbtlemme see17:39
lbtii  osso-browser                                   2.1.3-1                            Meta-package for Browser aplication17:39
lbtfrom dpkg-query17:40
timelyand the os release?17:40
lbtLinux Nokia-N800-51-3 2.6.21-omap1 #14 Sat Mar 15 22:23:21 CET 2008 armv6l unknown17:40
lbt2008 from the last 3 weeks...17:40
lbtactually the kernel isn't standard anymore...17:40
lbthow do I find out a useful value?17:41
timelycat /etc/osso_software_release ?17:41
lbtcat /etc/osso_software_version :)17:41
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lbtAnyhow, much earlier today I asked: I'm having a problem with the latest sdk+ using sb2... ERROR: object '' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.17:44
lbtanyone around now know anything?17:44
Jaffatimely: just experimenting now17:45
AStormlbt: is it n810?17:45
AStormdoes it have working DVFS?17:45
lbtthis is the sb2 dev environment on my desktop17:46
lbtIt was working...17:46
lbtthen I tried to install the gtkmm stuff17:46
lbtand ended up 'upgrading' to latest (3day old?) sdk+ release17:46
lbtthen it allows the gtkmm install and fails to run anything :(17:47
lbtI think the LD_PRELOAD is managing an overlay filesystem type thingy17:47
lbtbadly... <grin>17:47
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Jaffatimely: I'm resolving it as INVALID as using the version he claims works properly, the same thing happens.\17:48
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lbtJaffa: he does say in his email:17:49
lbtObviously I've managed to change a setting somewhere, but I can't work it out.17:49
lbtjust FYI - I think the bug report may just be badly worded...17:50
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lbtWORKSFORME and a request for more info may be better????17:50
Jaffalbt: The bug as described is invalid. But, hmm, maybe. Trouble is, no-one experienced in the platform ever experienced what he's describing AFAICT17:51
lbtwhich indicates a bug?17:51
lbtActually - you're right.17:53
* lbt slinks off to kick his sb2 somemore....17:53
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lcuktimeley eh at your eh?18:09
lcuktimely *18:10
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timelylcuk: you made a comment about age/code/timeless :)18:15
* timely is timeless18:15
timelyJaffa: thanks...18:15
timelylbt: strace and ldd and things are your friends18:16
lcuk:) did wonder what i'd done18:16
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Jaffatimely: no probs18:19
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timelyfwiw you didn't mark it as invalid... i guess you got there too late :)18:20
JaffaDamn. I'd intended to, but thought it might've been marked as invalid when I clicked "Create a new attachment"18:20
timelyi suspect it was open before you clicked create attachment18:20
timelybut dead by the time you attached it18:20
timelyso you didn't notice18:21
* timely killed it after testing a 77018:21
JaffaFair enough. I'd written all the text, set the status then went "doh, haven't attached the screenshot"18:21
timelyyeah, your screen shot + comments were very good18:22
* timely should have just left the bug alone18:22
timelyand you're absolutely right about breaking platform behaviors being bad :)18:23
* timely goes to hunt volleyball18:23
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qwerty12Hmm, does the DNDEBUG cflag compile with debug code or remove debug code?19:13
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summatusmentisI don't know... DN would seem to suggest DO NOT, but I made that up19:15
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qwerty12Yeah, probably, I dunno, I'll use it anyway :P :)19:16
lcukqwerty12, if you compile with that flag, dave neary gets an email every time your program crashes19:17
qwerty12Heh, best not compile with that then. Is that where my Nitro logs go too?19:18
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lardmanqwerty12: look for NDEBUG define in the code19:21
lardmanthe -D flag #DEFINEs whatever follows it19:21
qwerty12Ah, ok, thank you, I'm looking now.19:21
lbtI'm back on scratchbox 1 and just installed the 4.01 rootstrap. I had a problem with dbus complaining : D-Bus library appears to be incorrectly set up; failed to read machine uuid: Failed to open "/var/lib/dbus/machine-id": No such file or directory19:23
lbtAnyhow.... it appears I need to run : /usr/bin/dbus-uuidgen --ensure19:24
qwerty12Prefix the command you are running with run-standalone.sh19:24
* lbt goes to see..19:24
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lbtwhen am I supposed to use run-standalone.sh19:27
lbtdoes it simulate being launched from the menubar? I guess that makes sense...19:28
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lbtthe docs here:
lbtdon't mention it...19:31
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Jaffa~seen keesj19:34
infobotkeesj is currently on #maemo #oe. Has said a total of 19 messages. Is idling for 2d 21h 4m 16s, last said: 'X-Fade: did you get some help for the extras's repo?'.19:34
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GeneralAntilleslardman, ping.19:40
lardmanGeneralAntilles: sorted, I wasn't logged in and didn't expect to be allowed to do anonymous edits19:43
GeneralAntillesSign your comments with '~~~~'19:43
lardmanso was confused when I was told I wasn't allowed to edit (thinking I must have been logged in)19:44
GeneralAntillesand you can change how your nickname appears here:
lardmanRight, done that19:46
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GeneralAntillesGarage has BOUNTIES?19:54
NaviTwenty bucks! Someone should do it NAO19:57
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summatusmentisI... ah... how hard would it be for that to happen?20:09
summatusmentisand why hasn't the author(rm_you?) done it?20:09
GeneralAntillessummatusmentis, lol20:09
GeneralAntillesYou don't even KNOW20:10
GeneralAntillesHe's spent 6 months trying to figure this out. ;)20:10
summatusmentistrying to figure out how hard it is for the applet to be put in a container?20:10
summatusmentisor how to do it?20:10
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GeneralAntillesUh, how to do it. . . .20:10
summatusmentisnot documented or something?20:11
GeneralAntillessummatusmentis, what do you think? ;)20:11
lcuksounds like it needs a custom control to replace the existing menuitem class20:11
lcukbut there may be some magic hack that some gtk god will know20:12
summatusmentisGeneralAntilles: I have no idea. I'm assuming not, but I know virtually nothing about hildon/maemo coding practices20:12
GeneralAntillessummatusmentis, maybe, after 6 months, you think one of us might've stumbled across the documentation and figured it out from that if it existed? ;)20:12
summatusmentisone would asusme so20:13
lcukbut no1 is doing applets20:13
GeneralAntilles"no1"? <_<20:13
lcuknot really20:13
GeneralAntillesLots of people make applets, but nobody is trying to put sliders in them except Nokia.20:13
lbthmm - sounds like this is a good way to encourage Nokia devs to stay closed...20:14
lbtthen they can turn round and claim all the bounties ... <LOL>20:14
lcukok, let me rephrase, you can probably count on one hand the number of people who are making applets20:15
NaviThey'll totally want to claim the 20 dollar bounty20:15
lcuklol lbt i thought of that before, they could relocate to mexico with the bountry20:15
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lcuklive like kings for seconds before the money runs out20:15
GeneralAntilleslcuk, my comment was more directed at the lame aol speak. ;)20:16
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lbt$20 - oh, I thought it was a worthwhile currency - like lira or something...20:16
lcukyer, do we get to decide which country the $ is from..20:17
Navirm_you decides20:17
Navimake him pay in ounces of gold20:17
Navi20 ounces should do20:17
lcukGeneralAntilles, whats aol?20:18
lbtshouldn't you be running tar or something?20:18
lcuklol no ive got visual basic open and am procrastinating20:19
lcukhowever i might be able to run make later20:20
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lbtthat'd be nice - I'm playing with gtkmm now... still getting the lay of the land.20:21
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lcukits bumpy and little molehills turn out to be mountains20:23
lbtand then you find the fences and have to go the long way round....20:24
timelysummatusmentis: in short the code to make it work is basically an entire file20:27
timely(rm_you's bounty)20:27
timelyand there's no way i can give away closed sources :(20:27
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lcuktimely, are we right in thinking that it is a replacement menu or menuitem class which impliments the additional functionality?20:28
lbtdo the nokia applets overload the standard widget?20:29
timelylcuk: it's a raw widget that acts like a menu20:29
lbtbut has no published api?20:29
timelyit's not a library20:30
timelyjust part of the app20:30
timelythis is what happens when ui designers write specifications...20:30
timelypeople implement them...20:30
timelyspeaking of which20:30
timelyi need to scribble on a few specs20:30
timelywhich have things like: 1=1, 2=2, 3=220:30
timelyyeah, that'll work well20:31
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lbtis there any chance of the relevant headers being released?20:31
timelyno relevant header20:31
timelyit's really just code20:31
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lbtOK - just wondering if there's any assist to reverse engineering something...20:32
timelyi've already given out as much info as possible20:32
timelybut basically the thing to do is instrument gtk20:32
lcuklbt, most controls are reimpliments from each other i was looking before20:32
timelyand listen to all the method calls20:32
lbtyeah - I guess it's an old discussion...20:32
lcuklook at the code for the ummm...20:32
lcukonly today20:32
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lcukthings like tick menus and check menus etc all have active functionality within the standard menu - most things are built from combines of generic gtkbasecontrolwidgetthiny20:33
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lcukim sure its not anything magical and impossible20:37
lbtwhat's actually wanted?20:37
lcukyer, hes after a scrollbar in a menu20:38
lcukso when you pop the menu open you can adjust the scrollbar - just like the volume and brightness applets20:38
lbtcan't he create a widget which is a label containing an hbox and a hscroll?20:39
lbta composite?20:39
lbtthen add that in the menu?20:39
lcukim not sure of his gtk knowedge, all i know is its bugged him for ages and he has pecked at loads of things to try20:40
lcukhence his bounty20:40
* lbt is reading the wiki entry20:40
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kkrustyI just installed gngeo. Now I feel like I have something better than a psp20:46
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sp3000scale I suppose it would be, rather than scrollbar20:55
pekuja_kkrusty, unless you have modded your device with a proper gamepad-like interface, I'd say PSP still wins20:59
* lbt says "well, he's released the code here: so we can dig in and take a look" whilst not looking at lcuk...20:59
kkrustypekuja_: dont take away my happiness >:|21:00
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lcuklbt, yes we know that code doesnt work :P21:00
kkrustypekuja_: you already did. the n800 crashed on a particular rom21:00
lbtand yet he's still released it - how brave of him :)21:00
GeneralAntillesWell, it does work21:00
lcukno - it doesnt have the feature he wants21:00
lbtah, but it's not "finished"21:00
GeneralAntillesThe applet is perfectly functional.21:01
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lcukhe has implemented the changing and thats ok and lots of ppl use it, but he cant make it work21:01
lcukwhilst looking like the original nokia ones21:01
lbtwhich is lcuk's.... err.... "hangup" for not releasing his code :)21:01
GeneralAntillesIt just doesn't look right and doesn't close correctly unless you tap on the taskbar or statusbar.21:01
pekuja_kkrusty, :-<21:01
GeneralAntillesDepends on your definition of "work"21:01
pekuja_kkrusty, at least Metal Slug still works, right?21:01
GeneralAntilleslcuk, release early, release often.21:01
GeneralAntillesYou fail at open source. ;)21:02
lbtGeneralAntilles: no-one dies.21:02
kkrustypekuja_: yeah that works. But some roms are blacked out during game play21:02
lcukno, if i had written an applet, it would have too many options, which arent finished, would offer functionality that people would see and request of me, would do things which they arent expecting (clicking buttons perform actions that are inverse to what you would expect etc21:02
lcukjust because i can add a "no warranties" sticker to it does not mean i would be happy giving it to people21:03
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GeneralAntillesAgain, you fail at open source. ;)21:03
lbtlcuk: you think like a shareware bod21:03
pekuja_kkrusty, hmm, the gngeo port for maemo actually has the four buttons onscreen?21:03
pekuja_that's weird, although I guess it might be better than using the keyboard21:03
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kkrustypekuja_: Well it doesnt unless I leave the n800 to go into idle mode after which they appear21:04
lbtlcuk: your attitude is very commendable and professional for a commercial world... seriously21:04
pekuja_kkrusty, ah, so it's kinda buggy then?21:04
kkrustypekuja_: 'very' buggy21:04
lbtbut it's different in the OS world...21:05
lcuklbt, no its commendable for me learning from a system and finding out what works21:05
Proteousmy cellphone has a passable dpad on it, what would be cool is a java app for it that would make is show up as a bluetooth keyboard/gamepad for my n810 so I could use it as a gamepad21:05
pekuja_if you could run a DS emulator on Maemo, it'd be a pretty awesome gaming device :-P21:05
pekuja_that's fantasy though, there isn't even enough screen real estate21:05
lbtyeah - I agree - but you put together something that looks cool - and others want to play too. That's about the size of it :)21:06
lcukand i will release when im ready :)21:06
lbtAnyhow - wasn't meaning to nag.21:06
lbtI'm just waiting for an install so I can learn about the hell that is autoconf21:06
* lcuk is wrestling with sqlite at the moment21:07
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lcukwell you wont get that from mine, i havent got autotools on my 810 ;)21:07
lbtI'm playing with scratchbox 1 now...21:07
kkrustyI would say that the n800 does everything badly but is better than everything else in trying to do everything21:07
pekuja_Proteous, which phone model is that?21:07
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GeneralAntilleskkrusty, I would disagree.21:08
lbtI was starting with the packaging - then I'll write some code...21:08
lcuklbt :) i couldnt handle vmware so i setup gcc on my device and can now edit and compile direct on 810 or use ssh and whichever os i want to edit21:08
kkrustyGeneralAntilles: I would hit you with a shovel21:08
GeneralAntillesAlrighty then21:08
lbtno vmware needed - scratchbox uses cross-compile21:08
lcukin windows?21:08
* lbt shudders.21:08
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Proteouspekuja_: a pantech c15021:09
pekuja_the internet tablet is really probably just hitting really close to a sweet spot for a PDA-like device21:09
* lbt steps away from the keyboard...21:09
pekuja_Pantech? O__o21:09
pekuja_never heard of them21:09
lcukpantech make my phone21:09
pekuja_then again I live in Finland so everybody has a Nokia21:09
lcuko2 ice21:09
Proteousneither had I, but it realy is a nice phone, ATT only in the us though21:09
lcukyer i saw qwerty12_N800, but why would i run xepyhr when i can run on device faster and safer in knowledge that its actual hardware21:10
JaffaBTW, anyone want an Asus Eee 701?
qwerty12_N800lcuk, true. for me, sbox is better because it's faster and has proper coreutils etc21:11
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pekuja_are you giving one away? ;-)21:11
lcukqwerty12_N800, :) agree - for grown up compiling big established projects its essential21:12
Jaffapekuja_: practically! ;-) 150ukp/190 euro/local equivalent, or it'll end up on eBay21:12
pekuja_haha, ok21:12
lcuk3 radishes and a packet of peanuts21:12
Jaffalcuk: meet you at 140ukp and a packet of peanuts21:13
lcuklol, what you replacing it with21:13
pekuja_how about chili peanuts?21:13
aquatixhm, 70121:13
pekuja_anyways, I'm probably still waiting for Eee 90121:14
aquatix901 s really nice, but more expensive than 190 euro :)21:14
qwerty12_N800A packet of weed with nothing on top, should cover it.21:14
Jaffalcuk: nothing much really. Getting a better laptop from work, and I'm not using it much. Shame to see a gadget go to waste, and it was primarily bought as a stopgap before my N810 arrived.21:14
pekuja_I wonder how much it'll be. I've heard it might be as low as 400 euro21:14
vegaiI'm looking for the Acer Aspire One...21:14
aquatix701 is with atom?21:15
lcukcool jaffa, its not a vista machine is it? :P21:16
lcukactually, i best stop wasting time,  ive got a load of data moving to do21:17
lcukback later21:17
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GeneralAntillesDoes this zeenix character on Planet EVER blog about Maemo?21:19
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pekuja_aquatix, nope, it has a Celeron21:31
pekuja_aquatix, 901 has Atom21:31
pekuja_aquatix, 900 also has Celeron21:31
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ShadowJKwhat's battery life of 701 like?21:32
aquatixjust read about it21:32
aquatixi prefer a 90121:32
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pekuja_yeah, 901 is a lot better21:33
pekuja_ShadowJK, 2 hours? maybe Jaffa can confirm this...21:33
aquatix701 is a big n810 :)21:33
forgeShould be much higher21:33
forgeI think 701 has ~4h or so battery life21:34
GeneralAntillesShould be, but isn't.21:34
forgeCrank the settings a bit and it should yeild that much21:34
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Jaffa701 has around 4h, I think. Much longer than 900, a bit less than 901 (which has a bigger/heavier battery and more efficient CPU)21:46
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Po84quietest IRC room ever22:05
forgeHow's so ?22:06
Po84nobody said anything for 10 minutes22:06
forgeBecause everyone's still getting over the mid-summer hangover they managed to aquire in the past three days22:07
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GeneralAntillesPo84, you don't IRC much, do you?22:08
Po84not any more22:08
GeneralAntillesMost channels are mostly idling most of the time.22:09
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Po84yeah I think that's why I quit it to be honest22:09
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aquatixthis channel comes in waves, so to say22:10
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Po84I just came in to see if it was all people talking about development stuff or what22:11
aquatixthey do, actually22:11
Po84just that22:12
aquatixbut i think they are currently quietly consuming some alcoholic beverages, contemplating how to take over the world22:12
* aquatix doesn't type fast on his n81022:12
* Proteous gives aquatix more caffine22:12
Po84what IRC client you using?22:12
Proteouser, yeah, that one22:13
Po84mind you IRC on N800 sucks because you have to eitehr use the stylus or the full screen keyboard22:13
Proteousbut on the n810 isn't like butta22:13
Proteousman, I can't type22:13
Proteouson the n810 it's great22:13
GeneralAntillesMeh, IRC is fine for me on the N800.22:13
aquatixthat's why i have an n810 ;)22:14
Proteousthe ctrl being on only one side of the n810 keypad and the lack of an alt key makes screen and irssi a little annoying, but it's not too bad22:15
aquatixhm, wifi dropped out22:15
aquatixctrl+p/n is my friend22:15
aquatixand esc+p/n22:15
lbtMe, I like my dual 24" widescreens and a full size keyboard...22:15
lbtsize matters22:16
aquatixi like my 30''22:16
Proteousalso, since they made the number pad only accessable by using the func key, why didn't they just put the numbers in a npad layout on the right side of the keyboard22:16
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aquatixindeed does :P22:16
aquatixProteous: i think the layout is quite ok22:16
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Proteoustyping numbers would have been easier if I could hold down the func key with my left thumb and type the numbers with my right thumb22:17
Proteouswhich I can't really due since half the numbers are on the left side22:17
Proteousbut, I like having a hardware keyboard much better then the on screen one22:18
jottProteous: you could always define your own custom mapping :)22:18
Proteousand repaint the keyboard maybe22:19
jottyeah just use a permanent marker22:19
Po84I was thinking about buying a neat little USB keyboard I saw in maplin but it was ?20.  Slightly too much22:19
aquatixProteous: hm, true22:19
Proteousever wonder why the number pad on a keyboard/calculator is different then the layout on a telephone?22:19
jottor paint your brain :)22:19
* aquatix has a bt kb22:20
aquatixbut don't use it much22:20
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aquatixnot very usable at the couch ;)22:21
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lbtPo84: have you seen this:
lbt£18 delivered22:21
jottProteous: well better ask why a phone number pad differs from a calculator layout ;)22:21
jottyou said that ;)22:22
Po84lbt: I'm wondering if using a bluetooth keyboard would drain the batteries faster than using a USB one22:22
GeneralAntillesWhy are phone number pads so broken? :D22:22
Po84but I can't afford to buy 2 and trial them side by side22:22
lbtactually it looks like the offer ended :(22:22
GeneralAntillesPo84, I can't imagine that being the case.22:22
ProteousPo84: the BT would would use more battery22:22
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Proteouss/would would/one would/22:23
infobotProteous meant: Po84: the BT one would use more battery22:23
Po84yeah I got that22:23
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Po84plugged a memory stick in the other day and it seemed to really cane the battery, but then memorysticks are not the same as keyboards22:23
ProteousI think I'm going to hack up an oldschool NES controller. Do a USB retrofit and install a retractable USB cable inside it22:24
Po84i'm sure someone made a nes controller into an ipod game controller using USB22:24
Po84but I cannot remember where I saw it22:25
Proteouswonder if I could install some batteries in it to make it self powered22:25
aquatixbt kb is quite decent qua battery22:26
Po84 here we go22:26
Po84except it's not usb22:26
aquatixused it for hours in the train with bt gprs22:26
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ProteousPo84: that's slick, docking it into the controller like that is nifty22:28
Po84yeah I thought so when I saw it.  I only have an ancient 1st gen ipod else I'd have been all over that22:29
GeneralAntillesJust get a Wiimote to go with your NIT for emulators.22:29
Po84yeah I saw that.  not tried it yet22:30
GeneralAntillesI know Navi does it that way.22:30
Proteousthat was  a neat hack, but a wiimote is too large22:30
Po84I paired a wiimote with my imac once and for some reason i behaved screwey when I tried to re-pair to the wii22:30
Proteouswell, not as portable as I'd like22:30
GeneralAntillesSmaller than an NES controller.22:30
ProteousGeneralAntilles: a wiimote isn't smaller then and NES controller22:30
glasswiimote needs less work and is available easily though22:31
glassi just wish nokia put a proper direction controller on their phones and other devices22:31
Po84the D-Pad is in totally the wrong place for gaming22:33
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lbtnot if you use xrandr and invert the screen22:34
GeneralAntillesIt'd be nice if they would keep the N800's formfactor and clone all the buttons over to the right side.22:34
GeneralAntillesJust think what you could do with twice the buttons! :D22:35
aquatixbeing twice as productive!22:35
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glassleft or right side doesnt matter that much22:36
GeneralAntillesThe dpad still sucks22:36
GeneralAntillesbut still.22:36
glassbut it not being great for gaming matters and lacking buttons on the other side of screen does22:36
Po84some sort of N800 adaptor that fits around the screen and turns it into a handheld game with a few more buttons22:36
GeneralAntillesThey make one for phones.22:36
jottGeneralAntilles: hah i bet nokia would end up with something like the nokia 6820 :)22:37
lbtyou see - they're encouraging a market for accesories....22:37
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kkrustyanyone here has a list of roms which worked on maemo gngeo?22:47
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ssvblardman: hi22:50
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ssvblardman: I have finally successfully used DMA example22:51
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ImMelodyhey guys..22:51
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ImMelodyI am so fed up right now >.<22:52
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ssvblardman: the one from spru433 does not work because of the issue explained in section "3.8 DMA1 example/DMA transfers to SARAM or EMIF" of
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ImMelodyMaybe one of you will know the answer to this question..22:53
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ImMelodyHow can a Samba share be viewable on a Windows computer, but not show up on any version of linux?22:54
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sinakHello! How can i do a backup to my N800?22:54
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ssvblardman: now I will try to benchmark and find out the fastest DMA transfer method for SDRAM->SARAM and SARAM->DARAM22:56
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lcuk_ImMelody, hi, i dunno, firewall issues or refreshes or something like that?22:57
ImMelodyWell, I can go to the shares if I manually input the IP22:58
ImMelodyexcept for the printer share..which I can't see altogether22:58
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lbtOK - real quick - what's the best pdf reader for the n800?23:03
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GeneralAntillesBut most people like Evince23:05
* Jaffa 's first little Vala program is working in Scratchbox. Woohoo *cough*23:05
lbtok ta  :)23:05
* GeneralAntilles gives Jaffa a cookie.23:06
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: it displays two labels: one containing a big "dd:hh:MM:ss", the other a smaller ".cc"23:06
lbtJaffa: cool - I just got my first gtkmm running :) - the pdf reader is for the pdf here
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lbtl8r all :)23:06
* Jaffa wants a totally power mgmt compliant countdown timer app to a specified time or for a given duration.23:07
JaffaBut I dispair at Gtk+'s documentation (which is fine, once you find the bit you need), and Vala's current "look at the Gtk+ docs and try and work out the name of something using this naming convention" approach to API docs.23:07
GeneralAntillesI was thinking about filing an enhancement request to have Extras shipped enabled.23:07
GeneralAntillesAnybody else think that's a largely pointless idea?23:08
JaffaIndeed. I assume you've just seen my comment on the talk page?23:08
diemanim guessing theres no chance on extras shipped enabled23:08
JaffaI'd vote for it.23:08
diemantheres too much stuff in extras with insanely rough edges23:08
Jaffadieman: I'd like to see a categorical statement from Nokia though, and why. The "legal responsibility" answer I'd expect is a little thin23:09
Toba_excuse my poor knowledge23:09
Toba_but what is extras shipping?23:09
Jaffadieman: that's a QA problem, if that's a stumbling block we can find ways of fixing that (that are on the radar anyway)23:09
diemani think if there was an extras-super-shiny catalog23:09
diemanit'd be really cool.23:09
diemanstuff that you'd be ok having your dad happen to find and install23:09
diemanon his tablet23:09
dieman[my dad is a use case because he went out and bought one]23:09
juergbiJaffa: maybe this helps in addition to the gtk documentation,
dieman[so honestly, this isn't hypothetical for me]23:10
juergbiJaffa: we want a complete documentation of the bindings in the end, of course23:10
sjgadsbydieman: Mine too.23:10
GeneralAntillesPart of it, for me, is that even though it ships on the device 99% of users wont find it and enable it without help.23:10
JaffaToba_: the extras repository is an "application catalog" (sic) containing lots of third party extra applications. The Application Manager ships with it configured, but disabled, and so the user has to go and explicitly tick a hidden checkbox to see a whole bunch of extra applications which could value-add their tablet experience.23:10
Toba_oh, so stable software that isn't completely old and boring?23:10
Toba_I use it, but you mean 'shipping' as in 'working when you get it'23:11
GeneralAntillesand a lot of the questions I see popping up these days can be solved by shipping it enabled23:11
Jaffajuergbi: cool, ta. I should've looked at the Vala website a bit better (which, sitting as it does within's overall layout is a little hard to navigate without lots of back-button pressing)23:11
GeneralAntillesor making it easier for the user to find their way to enabling it.23:11
diemanJaffa: if anything, point to Ubuntu's decision to enable universe as a shipped option23:11
Jaffadieman: but they've got a whole raft of s/w available out-of-the box so that's an argument in favour. It's just good quality, QA-ed software. If we had an extras QA process, we could enable extras on shipped devices (I say "we", I mean Nokia)23:12
JaffaGeneralAntilles: agreed 100%23:12
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juergbiJaffa: yes, a properly strcutured website is also on the plan ;)23:12
GeneralAntillesThis would be another possible approach:
lcuk_jaffa, dont most users find "extras" switched on after their first visit to website and clicking one of the many .install files on the games list?23:13
Jaffajuergbi: one thing you might be able to answer, I want to add a timer (which I can enable/disable on certain DBUS events). The tutorial shows doing it in a GLib mainloop, but I'd expect to see Gtk.timeout_add()... but don't (not even a grep of the vapi files turns it up)23:14
GeneralAntilleslcuk_, I doubt MOST users find their way to maemo.org23:14
diemanmust go23:14
Jaffalcuk_: I think you're over-estimating the experience of the "average" (i.e. median, or mode) user.23:14
JaffaEspecially if, when we get to step 5, it's a consumer device and OS which will be available through, say, high-street stores like Argos, Woolworths or various local equivalents.23:15
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aquatixhey you23:15
juergbiJaffa: gtk_timeout_add is deprecated for quite some time. Gtk.main () uses a normal GLib main loop, so you can use GLib.Timeout.add()23:15
Jaffajuergbi: ah, fair enough. Not done enough Gtk development recently.23:16
juergbi(feel free to join #vala on gimpnet)23:16
JaffaCuppa first. Then some TV. Then trying to get an early night so may try and resist a late-night hacking session. Want to kick some donkey on my first day back at work tomorrow in 2 weeks :-)23:17
sjgadsbyGive a Yes/No option to enable extras--along with the standard, Nokia "this may eat your tablet" disclaimer--as part of initial setup.23:17
GeneralAntillessjgadsby, that's an option.23:17
GeneralAntillesPart of the tutorial home applet, maybe?23:17
Jaffasjgadsby: nice idea, especially if it included the option to never show the "eat your tablet" warning again. Or hell, even if it did.23:17
sjgadsbyOr upon first opening of app manager.23:17
JaffaI like it as part of initial setup. You've done date/time, phone, Internet access. Third party apps are a crucial part of the maemo vision, AIUI.23:18
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GeneralAntillesAlright, I guess I'll put this together as a sort of meta bug.23:18
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lcuk_what i find strange is: from the default tableteer page they are heavily pushing numptyphysics - following default instructions takes you to a garage page..23:22
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lcuk_maemomapper links take you to and a .install file23:24
lcuk_isnt this tableteer link the first and only thing on your desktop at install time?23:24
GeneralAntillesDefault desktop:
lcuk_whats streamtuner? i had tableteer23:25
GeneralAntillesIt rotates.23:25
lcuk_you sure? mine only ever showed 123:25
lcuk_"web shortcut" has 1 image and 1 web address23:26
GeneralAntillesYes, I'm quite sure.23:26
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lcuk_hmmm, did you update to the strange 50.3 thing that noone knew what was different on it was?23:28
GeneralAntilles51-3 was just the NOLO upgrade.23:28
lcuk_go into the settings of your "web shortcut" applet - how does it get a list of things to view? how does it change the images?23:29
GeneralAntillesOK, whatever, it doesn't rotate.23:29
GeneralAntillesI don't care right now. :P23:29
GeneralAntillesJust let me write up this bug.23:29
DekaritaeI am root and I have a document open in vi, but I cannot edit it23:29
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DekaritaeI think the file is read only but I do not know the equivalent to "attrib"23:31
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evaryontwhat keys do I need to add to apt-key to allow apt-get update to successfully & smoothly run?23:31
Po84later gators23:36
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DekaritaeOk, I have done 'chmod a+w matchbox.defs'23:36
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DekaritaeBut I still cannot make changes in vi23:37
DekaritaeDurr command mode23:39
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DekaritaeYay worked23:41
Dekaritae<keebler> And to my proudness, my 3yrd just made her first kill on halo... (I left to check my email and she picked up the controller.23:42
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acydlordcongrats lol23:44
sinakdoes n800 have a sudo password?23:45
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sinaki tried to make a tar of my root folder23:46
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sinakand it said Permission Denied23:46
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, easyroot is an easy way to get root access on OS2008 and can be found at http://nitapps.com23:46
sinakGeneralAntilles ~easyroot is the password?23:49
GeneralAntillessinak, click the link23:49
GeneralAntillesscroll down to the easyroot package.23:49
acydlordi never installed easyroot and sudo gainroot - worked just fine23:50
sinakah ok!23:50
acydlordand i put way too much milk in this coffee23:50
GeneralAntillesThen you must've enabled R&D mode, acydlord.23:50
Proteousjust add more coffeeeeeee23:50
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acydlordit's a cup at a time maker, so i'm stuck with this one till its gone23:51
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acydlordand at $13 a lb i'm not gonna pour it out lol23:51
Proteousthat's not too bad of a price23:51
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GeneralAntilleslol coffee23:52
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GeneralAntillessugar highs are more exciting23:52
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Proteouswe have a local roaster here in town that does good work, the prices are about that, $11-$13 per lb23:52
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rm_youDekaritae: w!23:53
rm_youexclamation does a force23:54
rm_youdon't need to change write perms23:54
acydlordthere are a couple local roasters out here, but i've only been buying fairtrade coffee lately23:54
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Dekaritaerm_you: When I started vi I was not able to edit the document. I did not know of command mode23:54
rm_youOH lol23:55
rm_younever used VI before? :P23:55
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DekaritaeMy preferred editor is TextPad 523:55
Proteousjoe FTW!!23:55
rm_youVIM is win :P23:55
Proteousor pico/nano23:55
Proteousfor us n00bs that are scared of VI23:55
DekaritaeI would rather Leafpad23:55
rm_youbleh pico23:55
sjgadsbyTextPad is nice. I love block select mode.23:56
GeneralAntillesnano is segfault hell on the tablet23:56
DekaritaeI am trying to launch the gpe-filemanager as root but I get an error23:56
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DekaritaeSomething about D-Bus library being incorrectly set up23:57
acydlordI have a vi cheatsheet on my n81023:57
rm_youI have a VI cheatsheet in my brain23:57
rm_youwait, that isn't cheating23:57
acydlordi used to but i got out of practice23:57
DekaritaeI haven't received my hardware keyboard yet so I am fumbling with the virtual23:58
rm_youit has taken me about 5 years :P23:58
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acydlordgksu corrupted me23:58
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andpoulhi, I've been having difficulty creating an account on maemo.org23:59
andpoulwhom should I address this to?23:59
DekaritaeWhom are you addressing now?23:59
andpoulok, nm, working now23:59
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