IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2008-05-19

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practisevoodoowhat on earth is up this the matrix red pill blue pill stuff?00:12
practisevoodooyeah i got how to do it00:13
practisevoodooi dont understand why00:13
Proteousyou take the blue pill, you wake up and belive whatever you want to belive, you take the red pill and you see how far the rabbit hole goes00:14
KotCzarnyby default only packages marked as user/foo category are installable00:14
Proteousor something like that00:14
KotCzarnyfrom app-man of course00:14
KotCzarnyapt-get has no such problems00:14
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x1alphaqwerty12_N800 : doesnt a 4" display hurt your eyes ?!00:27
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* unixSnob just discovered that the browser downloader is lousy00:29
unixSnobSo I'm trying to download a 600MB file, and halfway through the file is simply gone from the downloads window00:30
timelyunixSnob: where are you trying to download this file?00:31
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unixSnobit says (no files downloading) w/ no excuse as to what happened to the file I was downloading00:31
unixSnobI have it set to save to my external sd card00:31
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unixSnob(on an n800)00:31
unixSnobIt happened twice00:31
timelyyou could install strace and watch the browser download the file :)00:32
unixSnobthe second time i paused the download, and left it on pause00:32
unixSnobthen the file simply disappeared00:32
unixSnobI don't have the patience for that00:32
unixSnobI start the download, and look away00:32
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KotCzarnyshouldn't be a problem with a local server00:33
KotCzarnyto test00:33
unixSnobwhat does strace do for me?  i'm not sure what good a test will do.. I've already confirmed that the download tool is a piece of shit00:34
KotCzarnystop cursing00:35
unixSnobThe question is whether I can install a download manager plugin for this browser00:35
unixSnobOr if I need to try another browser00:35
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Saviqhi all, anyone using mobile mythtv with mythtv 0.21?00:37
qwerty12_N800Dta or flashgot with curl/wget in microb would be good...00:37
unixSnobmicrob?  never heard of it.. is that an alternate browser?00:37
unixSnobflashgot is a firefox plugin, isn't it?00:38
dennyMicroB is the defaulkt browser on the tablet00:38
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KotCzarnyand it's based on firefox300:38
timelyit's based on ff3alpha100:38
timelywhich is not like firefox300:38
timelyit's like ff3 minus 1 year00:38
KotCzarnybut based on firefox00:38
dennyis there any ETA on the new microb yet?00:38
timelydenny: two years00:39
timelymaybe 23months if you wait a month :)00:39
KotCzarnytimely: is that official ? ;)00:39
timelyno :)00:39
KotCzarnygood :)00:39
KotCzarny(or bad ;)00:39
timelybut it's true that waiting one month decreases your 24 month wait to 23 months :)00:40
KotCzarnywell, that depends on relativity..00:40
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timelyi can say that with relativ[e certa]i[n]ty00:41
KotCzarnytimely: what's the chance of general extensions for firefox working in microb?00:41
timelyw/o porting?00:42
timelyif they don't have a ui? not bad00:42
timelyif they have a ui? w/o porting? very very close to nil00:42
timelyuse fennec or firefox00:42
timely99% of all extensions use xul, and microb doesn't offer xul00:42
KotCzarnyand won't in the future too?00:43
unixSnobso are these microb plugins something I get from
unixSnobI didn't see any extensions menu choice in microb00:45
timelyKotCzarny: i can't speak for the future00:45
KotCzarnytimely: good00:45
KotCzarnyat least there is no definitive 'no'00:45
timelypersonally i had hoped to already include xul support00:45
* timely shrugs00:45
timelyi have no control over direction00:46
qwerty12_N800i also <3 the  mplayer plug-in too :)00:46
qwerty12_N800I'm just pointing out another plug-in :)00:46
qwerty12_N800separate from your convo00:46
KotCzarnytimely: is there a way to add mime-type handlers?00:47
KotCzarnyie. if link is audio/mp3 don't download but launch media-player00:47
qwerty12_N800KotCzarny, I think that can be done already :/00:48
KotCzarnyqwerty: any howto?00:48
KotCzarnyfor firefox i had to use mplayer-plugin00:48
qwerty12_N800look at /usr/share/applications/uri-action-defaults.list00:48
qwerty12_N800if i understand right00:49
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qwerty12_N800mplayer-plugin is available for microb too00:49
KotCzarnybut my question was generic00:49
KotCzarnyqwerty: hmm, but that's for opening after download, i think00:50
KotCzarnysome apps can handle links by themselves00:51
Navi[16:39:19] <timely> maybe 23months if you wait a month :) <- Lol XD00:51
KotCzarnywhich is nice for peeking in the content00:51
qwerty12_N800Ah, my bad. I think streaming video opens in default media player w/out downloading. maybe look to see how that happens?00:52
KotCzarnyi'll try on mp300:52
shaprI got a spam recently that said "ARM on the rise" in the subject line... I thought it had something to do with my N800!00:53
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* qwerty12_N800 just switched to glasser and breaths sigh of relief00:55
KotCzarnyi like nuvoclear00:56
qwerty12_N800I do too but new reflash :)00:57
KotCzarnyi was wrong00:58
KotCzarnyclicking on mp3 opens mediaplayer00:58
KotCzarnygood :)00:59
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* qwerty12_N800 is still unsure how to get battery information in ftd working even under diablo initfs :/01:02
KotCzarnytry strace?01:03
qwerty12_N800Don't have a binary atm01:04
qwerty12_N800Unless ftd depends on testserver (which it shouldn't) to get the battery data.01:05
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skiburanybody using a microsoft gps-360 device with maemo mapper?01:20
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AStormif it works over bluetooth, it should just work01:32
AStorm(after pairing, of course)01:32
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unixSnobI'm confused.. if MicroB is one of the firefox versions, what's the idea behind a 3rd party download for the "mozilla engine"?01:37
unixSnobDoesn't firefox/microb use the mozilla engine?01:37
AStormhuh? which download?01:37
AStormMicrob isn't exactly a version of Firefox01:38
unixSnobit's at browser.garage.maemo.org01:38
AStormit's a separate UI for Gecko01:38
unixSnobSomeone mentioned that microb was ff3, alpha101:38
unixSnobwhat's a separate ui for gecko?  microb?01:39
* unixSnob doesn't know what gecko is either01:39
AStormGecko is the page renderer01:39
AStormthe main library (there is Necko, network layer, NSPR, security lib and others)01:39
unixSnobthose are the components for microb?01:41
AStormyes, and firefox, and seamonkey, and thunderbird, and sunbird01:42
KotCzarnyand some other01:42
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AStormlike that page editor01:42
AStormand chatzilla ;P01:43
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unixSnobSo if I switch to the "mozilla engine", what am I giving up from microb?01:44
GeneralAntillesMicroB is mozilla.01:44
KotCzarnyis not01:45
AStormis not01:45
GeneralAntillesMy fingers are tired.01:45
AStormit's Gecko-based01:45
GeneralAntillesThe correct term is mozilla-based. ;)01:45
AStormunixSnob: you don't switch01:45
AStormit should be an update01:45
AStormGeneralAntilles: nope01:46
unixSnobmicrob = ff3 alpha1, but != mozilla?  confusing01:46
AStormmozilla-based = from mozilla.org01:46
AStormunixSnob: no, it's not ff3 alpha101:46
AStormjust the same version of Gecko01:46
GeneralAntillesNo, that's incorrect.01:46
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AStormGeneralAntilles: wikipedia, yeah, sure01:46
GeneralAntillesGecko-based browsers are "mozilla-based"01:46
AStormask mozilla guys, thank you01:46
GeneralAntillesLook at the source. <_<01:46
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GeneralAntillesAStorm, what's the name of the maemo browser?01:47
GeneralAntilles"Mozilla based browser for maemo"01:48
GeneralAntillesYes it is.01:48
AStormthe name is MicroB01:48
GeneralAntillesNo, it's not.01:48
GeneralAntillesThe ENGINE is MicroB01:48
* unixSnob is simply going to upgrade to the "mozilla engine" blindly, in hopes of improved download management01:48
GeneralAntillesThe whole browser is "Mozilla based browser for maemo"01:48
AStormengine is Gecko, sorry :-)01:48
GeneralAntillesAStorm, what are you, trolling?01:48
AStormblah blah, blah and blah01:48
AStormit uses Gecko directly01:48
timelymicrob is a codename for the engine01:48
AStormnot patched Gecko, or modded Gecko01:49
timelymicrob is a hacked gecko01:49
AStormreduced Gecko used for Minimo01:49
timelycalling it gecko is unfair to gecko01:49
AStormnot really01:49
AStormit is Gecko, but minimo variant01:49
* timely is a gecko dev01:49
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unixSnobdamn.. wouldn't let me install the mozilla engine.. says incompatible installation.  I just upgraded maemo a few weeks ago01:49
* timely is also fairly responsible for the name requirements01:49
KotCzarnywe've got the source01:49
KotCzarnytimely: what sentence is correct01:49
acydlordthe autorotate installer package doesnt like me01:49
KotCzarnyabout mozilla/firefox/gecko basedness01:50
timelyofficially Mozilla based browser for maemo01:50
AStormdoes it use any Mozilla code?01:50
timelyw/ microb being the name of the engine, and that it's a gecko derivative01:50
timelyAStorm: certainly01:50
AStormas in Code of Mozilla01:50
timelybut it isn't pure01:50
timelyit's adulturated01:50
timelyand stale01:50
AStormwell, the name is funny01:50
AStormthe UI isn't XUL01:50
Navitimely, oh yeah01:51
AStormthe engine isn't Gecko01:51
NaviThat's a funny name for a browser :P01:51
acydlorddoes anyone have a recent sources.list since gronmayer is down?01:51
AStormyet it's "Mozilla based"01:51
* unixSnob thinks somone should draw a picture of all this01:51
timelyAStorm: camino is mozilla based01:51
timelyit doesn't use xul either01:51
timelyalthough camino at least supports it (kinda001:51
AStormok, now, gimme Firefox Mobile01:51
AStormany dates for that?01:51
timely+2years :)01:51
acydlordactually there is a firefox mobile in the repos01:52
acydlordit's called fennec01:52
timelyfennec's more of a prototype01:52
KotCzarnyworking prototype?01:52
AStormworking prototypes are good01:52
acydlordmicrob was a prototype too :p01:52
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AStormbuggy prototype based on leaky version of Gecko01:53
acydlordthat's inferring that there are non leaky versions of gecko01:54
Naviacydlord, ooh :D01:54
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AStormacydlord: well, 20080512 hasn't leaked anything except 3 here yet01:55
AStormthese 3 objects are from addon manager01:55
AStormso, light :>01:55
unixSnobso what's the name of the whole browser, which contains microb?02:00
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unixSnobah.. just read the wiki.. there is no name for it apparently02:01
GeneralAntilles"Mozilla based broswer for maemo"02:02
GeneralAntillesPeople just call the whole browser MicroB, though.02:02
timelywell, the browser host is basically "tablet-browser-ui"02:02
timelyor just "web"02:02
timelybut it can host any number of browser engines02:03
timelyin diablo, the host will actually be browserd instead of browser if you want to talk about unix processes02:03
timelybut that's another story02:03
KotCzarnymm, having links2 browser as an actual option :)02:05
unixSnobsomeone recommended flashgot earlier (since i need a decent download manager), but flashgot does not appear at or any download manager for that matter02:05
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KotCzarnytimely: how about 'download with ..' option?02:06
KotCzarnybeside open/save/cancel02:06
KotCzarnyand having a list of apps02:07
timelydownloading requires credentials02:07
timelycredentials aren't portable02:07
KotCzarnysometimes, yes02:08
timelythere's already a copy link location for the cases where you don't need credentials02:08
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KotCzarnybut then again there are variables02:08
KotCzarny%U for user etc02:08
KotCzarnythat could be used in actual cmd line02:08
unixSnobyeah, downloading files from is hell.  I have to login to get to the webpage, then some kind of authentication goes on for each file donwload, because it breaks wget02:09
KotCzarnyjust a theoretical02:09
KotCzarnybrowser would provide some variables for user02:09
unixSnobI need an integrated download manager that can handle the credentials02:09
timelyunixSnob: i've used wget to grab files from sun.com02:10
KotCzarnylike user (%U) pass (%P) target dir (%D) file name (%F)02:10
timelyKotCzarny: cookie, httpauthrealm, ...02:10
unixSnobtimely: me too, but it requires a script02:10
KotCzarnyand user could prepare list of apps using those variables02:10
KotCzarnytimely that could be in %C, %H02:10
unixSnoband for some reason, maemo doesn't have wget02:10
timelydoesn't have or doesn't ship?02:11
GeneralAntillesunixSnob, apt-get install wget02:11
timelyand did you verify curl wasn't available?02:11
timelysome systems prefer curl, just to be annoying02:11
unixSnobty GeneralAntilles02:11
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unixSnobhow do I get root?  if I enter 'su - root' I get su: applet requires root privleges02:15
unixSnobah, sudo02:15
unixSnobwhat's the password/02:15
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unixSnobit seemed to take empty, but then I do a whoami, and response is "user"02:17
unixSnobsudo su - root should leave me in a root shell02:17
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GeneralAntillesInstall easyroot02:17
GeneralAntillestype: root02:17
acydlordor sudo gainroot -02:18
KotCzarnyor ssh root@002:19
unixSnob"Enable RD mode if you want to break your device" <= response to sudo gainroot -02:20
unixSnoband it leaves me as a user02:20
GeneralAntillesInstall easyroot02:20
KotCzarnyinstall ssh-server02:20
timelycapture-root ;-)02:20
unixSnobi need to be root to install easyroot, don't I?02:20
timelybut easyroot sounds best02:20
timelyuse application manager02:20
timelylike everyone else :)02:20
GeneralAntillesAdd their repository or download the deb02:20
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unixSnobnice.. finally got root, and apt-getting wget02:27
unixSnobtimely - is curl better for accessing downloads?02:31
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timelyi don't think one is better02:41
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unixSnobwell wget is pretty rough.. it requires a separate script to handle the authentication for sun.com02:42
unixSnobSo I'll try curl02:42
unixSnobso far I have found libCurl for maemo, but not a separate app02:43
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unixSnobThis chart makes curl look better than wget =>
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rm_youI love the way the world is going with internet :P02:48
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n8k`d|elibomIs connecting to the net via Bluetooth out of the question with Vista?02:53
GeneralAntillesYou want #vista02:53
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n8k`d|elibomUsing the n800 *shrugs*02:54
GeneralAntillesOh, you want to connect to a Vista box to get internet on the N800?02:54
n8k`d|elibomAye.  :P02:54
GeneralAntillesYou shoulda said that then. :P ;)02:54
GeneralAntillesInstall maemo-pan02:54
unixSnobhmm.. seems the default repository of is only a fraction of offerings.. I see a - but adding it to the repository seems non-trivial02:54
GeneralAntillesThen set up a PAN network on the Vista machine.02:54
GeneralAntillesShould work.02:54
GeneralAntillesAlthough I don't recall whether there's a phone/computer issue with PAN support right now.02:55
n8k`d|elibomalright *begins looking*02:55
unixSnobNow I get "some catalogs unavailable".  how do I add the pool catalog?02:55
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unixSnobthe full path looks like this
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raflwhere to find the config file for the x server?03:16
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GeneralAntillesThink we should resolve this as WONTFIX?
GeneralAntillesWhat with the mediawiki and all.04:13
KotCzarnycode in [code] shouldn't get parsed in any way04:15
KotCzarnymaybe except htmlization of some chars04:15
KotCzarnyit's the code dammit.04:15
KotCzarnydon't touch the code. etc04:15
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unixSnobSuppose I know the full path of a deb file that I want to install ( how do I add the relevent catalog/repository so apt-get finds the package, along w/ deps?05:06
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GeneralAntillesjust wget it?05:07
GeneralAntillesthen dpkg -i05:07
unixSnobI know that would get it started.. then it would start looking for dependancies, right?  If I can add it to the catalog, then I figure it'll find the deps05:08
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unixSnobwell I got lucky.. did't ask for any missing dependancies05:36
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rm_youjohnx: you still don't seem to be here.05:39
rm_youit's very depressing05:39
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NaviJaffa, ping05:53
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GeneralAntillesWhat are you, kidding?05:57
GeneralAntillesIt's 4 in the morning over there. :P05:58
unixSnobwhat's version 2.2007.53-3?  Chinook?06:00
GeneralAntillesis chinook06:00
infobotgern geschehen, unixSnob06:00
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GeneralAntillesinfobot now responds without a trigger. . . .06:09
GeneralAntillesinfobot, go kill yourself.06:09
KotCzarnyga: who owns infobot?06:09
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KotCzarnyand why it's a person which is never here?06:10
tank-maninfobot, what's my name!?06:11
GeneralAntillesinfobot, you're a useless, heaping, pile of trash.06:12
infobotI know you are but what am I?06:12
GeneralAntillesA 2nd grader.06:12
megabyte405_whoah, it can spit back grade school retorts06:12
KotCzarnyit's just stupid to leave a bot running without supervision..06:13
KotCzarnyand irritating06:13
GeneralAntillesI miss _Monkey06:15
GeneralAntillesat least he was personable.06:15
rm_youi thought infobot was supposed to be useful06:16
rm_youdoesn't he have some sort of...06:16
rm_you!infobot debian06:16
rm_youinfobot debian06:16
infobot  See
rm_youinfobot ukmp06:17
KotCzarnyrm_you: now it's getting retarded06:17
KotCzarnyand lagged06:17
rm_youi thought he had some sort of maemo-wiki tie-in06:17
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* unixSnob would like to grab this cheap battery for backup power => - but suspects the NIT will overdraw it06:31
KotCzarny1A at 5V is ~5W06:32
KotCzarnytech specs list: Output - 20 watts = 3 minutes; 16 watt = continuous06:32
KotCzarnyso you should be fine06:32
KotCzarnyor not06:33
KotCzarnythey also list: USB - 5V DC (250mA)06:33
KotCzarnyperson that prepared that listing is clueless06:33
GeneralAntillesSomebody want to try and reproduce this?
unixSnobKotCzarny: I suspect the USB port is has some extra electronics that can't take the same output that the AC output can06:36
tank-mannasty bug if its reproducable06:36
AStormKotCzarny: not exactly clueless06:37
unixSnobUSB compliance means <= 500mA06:37
AStorm100 mA for low power06:37
AStorm(no negotiation)06:37
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AStormbut then, they draw 300mA @ 9.5V06:37
AStorm250 mA could only be a drawback of their DC/DC converter06:38
unixSnobMost USB hubs will supply 500mA, and they are still within USB specs06:38
KotCzarnystill, that price suggests this battery is old06:38
unixSnobthat's 500mA per port06:38
AStormunixSnob: 500 mA is actually required by Full USB spec06:38
KotCzarnyand they want to clear their warehouse06:38
AStormwell, 1200 mAh NiMH is replacable06:39
AStormoh wait, it's 9V NiMH?06:39
KotCzarnydepends on cells used06:39
AStormmight be hard to find06:39
rm_youi just want to walk around with a backpack full of some sort of battery06:39
rm_yoube it a car battery or a bunch of cells06:39
AStormI'm building such a device, got almost everything ready06:40
KotCzarnyrm_you 12V gel accus are nice06:40
AStormexcept proper soldering iron06:40
AStormKotCzarny: and very expensive06:40
rm_youknow anywhere i can buy them like... bulk? :P06:40
KotCzarnyastorm: have you done any tests?06:40
KotCzarnyastorm: not really06:40
AStormKotCzarny: tests like?06:40
AStormit's not soldered yet06:40
KotCzarnyastorm: what voltages/currents n8x0 needs/accepts06:40
AStormah, that06:40
AStormcurrent I haven't tested06:41
AStormit can take 5,5V in w/o a problem06:41
AStormand 4,8V too06:41
KotCzarnyhow about 3.6V ?06:41
AStormNot sure, don't have proper power source to test ;P06:42
KotCzarny3xAA ?06:42
AStorm3x NiMH you mean06:42
AStormthe problem is plug, duh06:42
KotCzarnynimh come in misc form factors06:42
AStormnot some random AA, because that is 1,5V06:42
AStorm3x 1,5V is a bit more than 3,6V06:43
KotCzarnydepends on usage06:43
AStormblah blah, drops to at least 1,4V06:43
AStormif it's Menelaus controlling power, then it should work even off 2,8V06:43
AStormbut it will be wasteful06:44
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AStormmaximum current drain is 800-something mA06:44
KotCzarnyi think it can simply shutdown on low power06:44
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AStormsorry, wrong06:45
AStorm800-something is just the power usage of the device06:45
AStormcharging eats like to 400 mA06:45
AStormso, 1A and up is nice06:46
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AStormI wonder why Nokia used this weak power supply then...06:46
KotCzarnymaybe it's not that weak06:47
AStormthis 800-something mA is only pulled during full usage, with BT, Wifi and both SD cards active06:47
GeneralAntillesSomebody want to try and reproduce this?
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AStormand full CPU usage06:47
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KotCzarnyi would like to scale #8 from retu to actual battery voltage06:47
AStormand fully lit screen06:47
AStormKotCzarny: grab a cheap multimeter, cost is about 20 PLN06:48
KotCzarnyi have one06:48
AStorm(well, calling that a multimeter is overstatement, but it will be accurate enough in this range)06:48
rm_youGeneralAntilles: if i knew where my n800 was06:48
rm_youit's packed away in one of my suitecases06:48
GeneralAntillesFirst it doesn't work, now you've lost it?06:48
AStormthen plug battery through it06:48
rm_youi'm in the process of moving06:48
GeneralAntillesI travel with it in my POCKET. :P06:48
rm_youi WILL be06:49
rm_youbut my flight isnt for a week06:49
rm_youand i have a lot of stuff to carry06:49
AStormGeneralAntilles: I guess you have huge pockets06:49
rm_youand i'm house-hopping like every other day06:49
AStormas N810 barely fits06:49
GeneralAntillesNo, I have perfectly normal sized pockets.06:49
GeneralAntillesI just don't wear women's pants. :P06:49
KotCzarnyi carry n800 in my backpack06:49
rm_youAStorm: normally, i carry my n800, travel keyboard, gps, cell phone, wallet, keys, headphones and usb SD reader06:50
rm_youall in my pockets06:50
KotCzarnywhy do you need sd reader06:50
KotCzarnyyou have n80006:50
AStormwell, the trick is I only have two of these06:50
GeneralAntillesrm_you frequently looks like he has leg tumors.06:50
AStormKotCzarny: full-size SD06:50
rm_youso i can pull the card out of my n800 wherever i am and put stuff on it / pull stuff off it06:50
unixSnobGeneralAntilles: I can't reproduce.. kuz my control panel doesn't have an option to create a swap file06:50
AStormso, USB reader is handy (not sure if it can run on 100 mA N810 provides on USB port)06:50
KotCzarnyastorm: yes, adapters are tiny06:51
rm_youwell, i have n800, so the usb SD reader is so other computers can read my SD card06:51
GeneralAntillesunixSnob, Control Panel: Menu: Virtual -> Check the box.06:51
KotCzarnyastorm: and you can simply put adapter inside n80006:51
AStormKotCzarny: down size?06:51
AStormwhere do I get such an adapter?06:51
KotCzarnyastorm: allegro ?06:52
GeneralAntilles7th dimension, AStorm.06:52
AStormrm_you: somebody doesn't have a laptop?06:52
GeneralAntillesFrom Marry Poppins.06:52
AStormGeneralAntilles: that was weak ;P06:52
GeneralAntillesMinus extra r06:52
KotCzarnyastorm: he has n80006:52
KotCzarnynot n81006:52
AStormrm_you: and, use USB cable06:52
AStormah, I lose06:52
rm_youAStorm: i'm on my laptop right now :P06:52
GeneralAntillesLaptops suck.06:52
AStormI need a down-size SD to miniSD06:52
rm_youand it has an SD reader in it06:52
AStormmay stick out of the port06:53
rm_youbut i'm talking about for random other machines06:53
rm_youlike any of the machines at school06:53
AStormrm_you: N800 has a reader too, so... use the USB cable06:53
KotCzarnyrm_you, n800 can act as a usb reader06:53
unixSnobGeneralAntilles: control panel does not have a "virtual" option in the menu06:53
rm_youyeah <_< but it does weird things when i plug it in06:53
GeneralAntillesAre you following my steps? No.06:53
rm_youcause it takes away the drives06:53
GeneralAntillesControl Panel, open the Memory item06:54
GeneralAntillestap the Virtual tap06:54
AStormrm_you: yes, it does06:54
rm_youi generally only want it to take one06:54
rm_yousince i'm usually running things off one of them :P06:54
AStormthen use the other06:54
GeneralAntillesYou should get one of jolouis's adaptors and take a flash drive with you.06:54
rm_youbut if i plug the n800 in to usb it automatically steals both06:54
GeneralAntillesLess bulk than an sd reader.06:55
AStormGeneralAntilles: uhm, which pendrive works on 100mA?06:55
unixSnobGeneralAntilles: found it.. you didn't say 'memory' the first time.  It's creating it.. and it's rather slow06:55
AStorm(most new larger ones don't)06:55
GeneralAntillesMy SanDisk Cruzer Titanium 2GB06:56
AStormanyway, a tiny battery-powered hub would be great06:56
AStormGeneralAntilles: ah, that's not huge06:56
AStormbut big enough :-)06:56
unixSnobdamn that's slow.. probably 60-80 secs to create a 16MB swap file06:56
GeneralAntillesIt's creating a loopback image.06:56
KotCzarnyga: not true06:56
GeneralAntillesSeems faster in Diablo, anyway.06:57
KotCzarnyswapfile isn't mounted via loopback06:57
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AStormswapfile is mounted directly via swap driver06:57
AStorm(AKA cachefs?)06:57
KotCzarnybut swapfile on vfat sucks06:57
AStormnah, why?06:58
AStormif it's contiguous, it doesn't matter which FS it's on06:58
KotCzarnybecause vfat and mmc drivers are not a best fit06:58
KotCzarnysomeone mentioned that vfat is quirky with mmc06:58
AStormext and mmc drivers aren't either06:58
AStormyes, vfat and ext both hit the first few writeblocks hard06:59
AStormreiser would be better (talking stable FSes)06:59
AStormalthough journalling, meh, not that good too06:59
KotCzarnyastorm: doesn't matter with wear levelling06:59
AStormdoes matter06:59
KotCzarnynot that much06:59
AStormit limits performance06:59
AStormif you make a write, you have to rewrite the whole block07:00
KotCzarnyyes, i know07:00
AStormthus, you get at least two blocks (allocation tables)07:00
AStormB-tree FSes are more spread out07:01
AStormand usually tree is closer to files07:01
AStormalthough you'd need copy-on-write to be fully efficient (or a spread-out journal)07:01
KotCzarnydoesn't matter with flash07:01
AStormdoes matter07:01
KotCzarnynot that much07:02
AStormnumber of writeblocks07:02
AStormesp. with slower flash07:02
KotCzarnybut no seek hit07:02
AStormand the writeblocks are becoming larger07:02
AStormno seek, but lowers transfer a lot07:02
AStormhalves actually07:02
AStorm(or worse)07:02
KotCzarnybut reads are fast07:02
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AStormanyway, we need an FS optimized for flash disks07:03
AStorm(i.e. btrfs)07:03
KotCzarnyyou can always try having journal on another card07:03
unixSnobGeneralAntilles: I could not repeat the issue on an n800.  No trash left behind on either mmc chip07:03
GeneralAntillesExcellent, thanks unixSnob.07:03
AStormKotCzarny: that won't help07:04
AStormthe problem is wear then ;)07:04
KotCzarnyastorm: nope, it will help07:04
AStormif it were that easy, you could just use RAID007:04
KotCzarnyremember that you write to journal too on most write operations07:04
AStormthe trick is placing all writes close together07:04
AStormyou don't care too much about fragmentation on flash drives07:05
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KotCzarnyastorm: or cloning whole blocks?07:05
AStormtoo slow07:05
AStormthink 400 * 1MB blocks07:06
AStormadd a write to the first block every few, you'll see how it impacts performance07:06
KotCzarnybigger caches would be nice07:07
AStormthe best case is only one write to the allocation table07:07
KotCzarnyif we had the mem07:07
KotCzarnybtw. is write caching on for mmc on maemo?07:07
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AStormI guess not.07:07
AStormcheck dmesg07:07
KotCzarnywhat should i look for?07:08
AStormfor write-through and write-back07:08
AStormomg, JSP *sucks*07:09
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AStormbonus points for having to set up some Tomcat server07:10
AStormalso, I don't seem to have javax.servlet... or NetBeans (suck) isn't reading that07:11
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blahdeblah-lapHi.  Is the package osso-software-version important?  To upgrade my packages, it says i must remove this.  Running an N800 on OS2008.07:12
AStormNo, I do, suck isn't reading it.07:12
AStormblahdeblah-lap: you can hack around it07:12
blahdeblah-lapAStorm: how?07:12
AStormit is just the control panel applet though07:13
blahdeblah-lapwhat do you mean?07:13
AStormblahdeblah-lap: in /var/cache/apt/something...07:13
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ItalodanceThe N900 will come with support for Quad-band GSM, HSDPA, WiMAX, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.07:48
Italodanceis it really true?07:48
Italodancei wish my n80007:48
Italodancehi johnx07:48
GeneralAntillesHi, johnx.07:48
johnxhi all07:48
ItalodanceN900 can insert a simcard?07:48
KotCzarnycan i has n900 ?07:49
GeneralAntillesItalodance, nobody but Nokia knows a damn thing about the N900.07:49
GeneralAntillesThat's a fake article.07:49
GeneralAntillesIt's not based on any really information07:49
GeneralAntillesIt's what the stupid author wants.07:49
ItalodanceREAD: For sure it will offer Quad-band GSM at 850/900/1800/1900Mhz and the European 2100Mhz for 3G HSDPA, however we hope for support of all 3G and GSM bands in a single device, more specifically we hope for support of Quad-Band GSM along with Quad-Band 3G HSDPA offering support for 850/1700/1900/2100Mhz. (2100Mhz is for Europe and most of the world, 850/1900Mhz is AT&T's bands in the USA and 1700Mhz is the upcoming 3G band for T-Mobile USA)07:49
ItalodanceThe phone will also offer Wi-Fi (probably 802.11b/g) Bluetooth and GPS.07:49
ItalodanceFor the WiMax we beleive is too soon but if they offer it is great addition and more than welcome!07:49
GeneralAntillesIt's fake.07:49
Stskeepsi would be scared how much battery such a n8x0 would take07:50
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johnxthat's been out for a long time07:57
Italodancejohnx when?07:57
GeneralAntillesHrm, how do I make a bugzilla search for showing all bugs with new comments from the last 2 days? The "Bug Changes" field doesn't seem to have a Comments item.07:57
johnxItalodance, May 200707:58
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GeneralAntillesYou cleaning your toilet, Navi?08:06
GeneralAntillesYes you are.08:09
GeneralAntillesDon't lie.08:09
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timelyGeneralAntilles: do you really need commentS?08:17
GeneralAntillesOf course.08:17
GeneralAntillesI want to read bugzilla like a forum. :P08:17
timelyif you select nothing you'll get all bugs changed in the last 2 days08:17
GeneralAntillesAh, really? Cool.08:18
timelydon't forget to stick the '2' in the other field of course...08:18
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timelybtw, have you ever clicked the help link?08:19
GeneralAntillesOn the front page?08:20
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timelynot sure where the help link is, but i trust it's somewhere...08:24
GeneralAntillesThe "Give me some help (reloads page.)" at the top here:
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timelythat requires js which i typically disable :)08:27
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GeneralAntillesSomebody ought to get rid of that period. . . .08:27
timelyhrm, it is misplaced, oh well08:28
KotCzarnysomebody should learn about target=_blank08:28
KotCzarnyand drop js08:28
Navitargets don't conform to xhtml 1.1 strict and later08:32
KotCzarnybroken js is worse than nonconformance to xhtml strict08:32
Navibroken anything is bad08:33
timelyKotCzarny: where would you use _blank?08:34
Naviwithin the <a> tag08:34
timelywhose a tag, and why?08:34
KotCzarnydarn, my connection is dying08:35
timelyNavi: i know html08:36
NaviNo you don't08:36
timelyi just don't understand who wants to actually use that feature08:36
NaviYeah, that link shows you :P08:36
KotCzarnytimely: why is there js for a help link used?08:36
NaviYou don't know html, you only do work on a layout engine, after all08:36
timelythe help version requires data that isn't sent w/ the normal version of the page08:37
timelyit could be rewritten to dynamically retrieve all that data, but it'd be moderately painful08:37
NaviMeh, it's better you don't know how to use target="_blank" anyways :P08:37
KotCzarnywhere is that help link anyway?08:37
timelynear the top (if you have js enabled) i guess08:38
KotCzarnyon the page08:38
timelyuse find?08:38
KotCzarnyi have js enabled, but i don't see anything08:38
NaviI didn't read your sentence correctly08:38
KotCzarny(that looks like a help button)08:38
NaviMorons love target="_blank"08:39
NaviIt's easier than setting up something proper08:39
sxperttarget is pretty useless08:39
sxpert(as most frames are)08:40
* timely shrugs08:40
KotCzarnyok, at what page i should look for that help link?08:40
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KotCzarnyok, found it08:41
Navisxpert, every beginning html writer knows that frames are awesome08:42
KotCzarnyok, now what is the use of:08:43
KotCzarny  <script type="text/javascript"> <!--08:43
KotCzarny      document.write("<p><a href='query.cgi?help=1&amp;format=advanced'>Give me some help</a> (reloads page.)</p>");08:43
KotCzarny      // -->08:43
KotCzarnyover plain html, that is08:44
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sxperthow about creating a hidden class and changing the "visiblility"08:45
KotCzarnybut it doesn't do anything other than printing some string08:46
KotCzarnyno ifs, no nothing08:46
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timelythe page doesn't work w/o js enabled08:53
timelyso providing a link to a page that won't work is stupid08:53
KotCzarnyok, that can be a reason08:53
timelyhence you protect it08:53
timely"click me, reloads page, results in broken page"08:54
timelyyeah. that's a good idea.08:54
KotCzarnybut wouldn't it be wiser to use <divs> hidden by js ?08:54
timelynoscript and friends would show them08:54
KotCzarnythat would help for people without js08:54
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KotCzarnyand that's the point08:55
timelyyou mean on the other page08:55
timelywelli'm late08:55
timelyyou're free to try to redesign the advanced page08:55
timelygood luck.08:55
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KotCzarnyuser can modify it?08:55
timelyjust start by rewriting the html you get08:56
timelythen i'll show you how to get the tmpl that generates it08:56
* timely leaves08:56
KotCzarnyi will do it if i don't forget about it :)08:57
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KotCzarnynice charger09:00
kulveI wonder how powerful those codecs are..09:02
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myschi all. anyone know of a place that sells microA <--> female A dongle?09:13
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tank-manmysc, if thats what i think it is, circut city/the source has it09:42
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mysctank, it's a usb dongle. microA to female A10:08
johnxmysc, there was some thread on about it I thought...10:08
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myscyeah, i've looked. the best i've found is micro A to male A (so you need a gender changer)10:10
myscthere's also micro B to female A (which i don't quite understand)10:10
johnxfor the n80010:11
myscthe n800 is mini, i thought10:11
johnxah, sorry10:11
johnxmy mistake10:11
johnxmicro b would work for you too10:11
johnxbut you'd have to change to host mode in software10:12
myscid have to change sw though10:12
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myscthere is a micro A to female A but it's a company in HK and you have to buy 1000 :)10:16
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RahimTuxIs there a deb/deb-src repository available for the contents of
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RahimTuxMight it be possible to setup one?10:43
RahimTuxIt would make things easier.10:43
johnxyou'd have to get everyone who submits a project there to also submit a buildable src debian package10:43
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RahimTuxA build-system could generate a repository for all projects which support it.10:45
RahimTuxHaving a part of the projects available as deb repository is IMHO better than nothing. Just my 2¢...10:47
johnxI think the direction things are going is to have a deb-src repository for extras and extras-devel10:48
kulvethe extras repo is similar to what your want10:48
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RahimTuxWhat is necessary to add a garage project to the extra repository? Are the garage project maintainers responsible to do that or one of the operators?10:54
kulvethe package maintainer10:55
johnxgarage users have to submit the project to maintainers *I think*10:55
* Navi yawns10:57
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Navijohnx, any progress on getting hildon apps working in debian?11:26
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RST38hHeh, got complaints of dpad center acting as START11:45
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hendrythe maemo wiki sucks12:01
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hendryspending ages trying to get sshd working after flashing chinook on12:02
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KotCzarnymaybe that's because problems is of pebcak type?12:02
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lardmanhendry: just install it using red pill mode and it should work....12:03
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acydlordso, anyone alive at the moment that has an up to date /etc/apt/sources.list with most or all of the repos that they could pastebin?12:05
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hendrylardman: that's so UN obvious12:07
lardmanis that what you did?12:07
lardmanif not, add a note to the top of the wiki page12:08
acydlordnevermind, i'll just backup my sources.list before i reflash12:09
lardmanacydlord: sorry, don't have N8x0 on me at,12:09
acydlordthats alright12:09
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acydlordi forgot my sources list is about 2 months old, just need to fix up a few problematic repos and i should be fine12:10
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hendryyay found after searching12:14
hendrynow I need to figure out how to get root12:14
Knirchafter installing it it will prompt you to set a password for root12:15
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Knirchthen it's as easy as ssh root@localhost12:15
KotCzarnyssh root@0 should work too12:16
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Jonhendry: out of curiosity, what version is that openssh package, is it derived from the debian one, does openssl get pulled in with it or is there an openssl already deployed in os2008, does it inherit the ssl bug?12:23
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lardmanX-Fade: do you have a LinuxTag ticket yet?12:30
lardmanX-Fade: I've been sent 10 to distribute12:30
trickielardman: do you know if you can buy them at event? or do you *have* to preorder?12:32
JaffaNavi: pong12:32
JaffaMorning, all12:32
lardmantrickie: you can get them at the event, just costs a bit more12:32
trickielardman: k, ta12:32
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hendryJon: i will check with the debian black list shortly12:45
lardmantrickie: are you coming for sure?12:45
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trickielardman: yes im booked to fly there etc12:48
trickieim only for the thurday and friday12:48
RST38hKot: Any ideas what may grow process' VSZ to 100+MB?12:48
KotCzarnybad memory management?12:49
KotCzarnyhoarding mallocs?12:49
RST38hNo, it is not memory leaks, it does not grow12:49
RST38hAnd Load applet shows 13MB onlyt12:49
RST38hLooks like some link dependencies12:49
lardmantrickie: send me an email, I have a few tickets12:50
lardmanlikewise anyone else12:50
lardmanI may not reply today though as I have to sit on a train for 6hrs12:50
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KotCzarnyvirtual memory usage of entire process. vm_lib + vm_exe + vm_data + vm_stack12:50
KotCzarnythat's vsz12:51
KotCzarnyit's not necesarily malloced then12:51
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KotCzarnyjust some kind of we could use that much, but doesn't matter we will12:52
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trickielardman: sure, sounds good12:53
KotCzarnyrst, i may be wrong though12:54
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lardmantrickie: Loeve, is that an umlaut?12:54
RST38hkulve: it's not a leak12:54
RST38hkulve: does not grow, just stays that way, like if I linked to 100MB of libraries12:55
trickielardman: i think it may have originally, but since my family moved out to australia they haven't used one12:55
lardmantrickie: long trip to Germany then!12:55
kulveRST38h: but I guess that provides some info which could show what is using what12:55
KotCzarnyrst ldd ? :)12:55
trickietrickie: nah, i live in Amsterdam ATM12:55
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RST38hKot: is there ldd for N810? =)12:56
lardmantrickie: done12:56
RST38hI have not found it12:56
lardmanI'm off, see you chaps on Friday12:56
trickielardman: cheers!12:56
KotCzarnyrst: there is one in sb12:56
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RST38hI am at work and my sb is at home =)12:56
KotCzarnyyou put your servers to sleep when you leave home?12:56
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RST38hI do not run servers at home =)12:57
KotCzarnyok, home-servers12:57
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hendryJon: Not blacklisted12:58
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RST38hKot: hey, maybe you can download ines-maemo and fmsx-maemo and run ndd on both executables?13:11
* RST38h wonders what the hell got linked since fmsx to make a difference in cvsz13:12
KotCzarnyi hope they don't need crazy deps13:13
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KotCzarnyquite a lot libs13:15
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pupnikRST38h: do you make your own text / menu system, or use some library for those emus?13:18
KotCzarnywhole x/gtk/hildon/pango13:19
pupnikRST38h: if you want me to demo it, please let me know - privmsg any info you want to share13:19
KotCzarnyand cairo too13:19
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trickiehrw: morning13:26
hrwhi trickie13:29
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infobothi, dneary13:47
dnearyany bugzilla wizards here know how to query bugzilla for "all the bugs where the assignee is me, or someone I'm watching"?13:48
dnearyinfobot: Hellp13:48
dnearyinfobot: Hello, even13:48
hrwhi dneary13:49
hrwdneary: is there a way to get login/pass to mediawiki on
dnearyhi hrw13:51
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dnearyYou click on "Login", and then "Register", I think13:51
hrwthere was no login last time13:52
hrwno register at login page I mean13:52
hrwand still only 'Log in' button present13:53
dnearyOr click "Create account" directly13:53
dnearyThat's the one :)13:53
dnearyNeeded to look at the site to refresh memory13:53
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hrwI will make a shot13:56
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RST38hKot: Thanks!13:57
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RST38hpupnik: I have my own tiny UI/gfx library, just for small applications when you do not want to use gtk/etc13:57
RST38hpupnik: The name is EMULib. If you want the source code, get ColEm sources (
dnearyAh - for MediaWiki13:58
dnearyYou need to ask me :)13:58
KotCzarnyisn't that what he did?13:58
dnearyhrw: What username?13:58
dnearyAnd what's the real name?13:59
hrwdneary: MarcinHrwJuszkiewicz, Marcin Juszkiewicz14:00
RST38hKot: the only difference is gconf changing place...hmmm14:00
RST38hso it must be something I do in the code then...14:00
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RST38hpupnik: btw, ColEm also eats 100+MB of virtual memory, so if you feel like finding out why, please do =)14:01
KotCzarnyrst, maybe it's just a shared libs14:01
KotCzarnytry running 2 instances at once?14:02
KotCzarnyif you don't run out of mem then it's something shared ;)14:02
dnearyhrw: Is that the same username you have for garage?14:02
hrwdneary: so I can use garage login there? will have to test then14:02
dnearyhrw: I need to add the account first14:03
hrwdneary: ok - logged on garage name 'hrw'14:03
hrwYou are now logged in to maemo wiki as "hrw".14:03
dnearybut once I've done that, you're good to go14:03
pupnikRST38h: thanks.  i'll mention it.  Have you tried iNES on Nokia 770 yet?14:03
dnearyOK, you're good to log in14:05
dnearyDo you want me to add you to the wikiadmin group14:05
RST38hKot: Well, you have just run ldd - and it is identical for fmsx and ines14:07
RST38hfmsx does not eat 100MB14:07
RST38hpupnik: I have no N77014:07
RST38hpupnik: Where do you want to demo/mention it anyway?14:08
dnearyhrw: You're good to go.14:08
RST38hAudit Scotland's second major comparison of public sector databases has identified 36 per cent less fraud than its first attempt!14:09
pupnikRST38h: linuxtag, berlin14:11
KotCzarnypupnik: did you know that lhc will start in mid june ?14:12
hrwdneary: wikiadmin? no - normal user for now14:12
KotCzarnyso it may be your first and last linuxtag ;)14:12
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dnearyhrw: Too late ;)14:13
pupnikwhat is lhc?14:14
KotCzarnylarge hadron collider14:14
glassend of the world!14:14
pupnikoh yeah the end of the world14:14
KotCzarnyend of earth14:14
KotCzarnyworld will continue to exist14:14
pupnikhey lets place a bet, if the world ends, i owe you 10 euro14:15
KotCzarnypupnik, can i have it before?14:15
pupnikwe'll probably have time for a quick 'lol' in irc14:16
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KotCzarnybut if we are unlucky nothing catastrophic will happen14:17
RST38hpupnik: ah14:18
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RST38hCthulhu will wake up and rise14:18
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RST38hREMEMBER: Cthulhu is sleeping for our sins.14:21
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RST38hIn case you have not seen it:
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RST38hEspecially this one:
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KotCzarny'who wanna be a millionaire'
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* RST38h will pass14:32
GeneralAntillesdneary, how's the wiki reorg going?14:35
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GeneralAntillespupnik, if that HD cam works out, thing you could use it to film some presentations? :D14:44
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pupnikDepends on when it arrives.  I might have to return it.  Otherwise sure.14:50
GeneralAntillesJudging by the sample videos, I suspect that might be something it'd be good for. ;)14:51
pupnikYes they did seem not so bad.  Bad compression artefacts when panning and shaking though.14:51
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dnearyGeneralAntilles: Still getting organised, really14:58
KotCzarny'organized' ?14:58
GeneralAntillesdneary, I don't really have the desire to invest time in the reorg, but I'm fairly familiar with mediawiki, so I hope I can help once things get moving on that end.14:59
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trickiedneary: i can help with the migration (im familiar with media wiki), i don't have heaps of time, but can certainly put an hour or two in here and there15:06
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dnearytrickie: Great!15:07
dnearyKotCzarny: No, organised15:08
KotCzarny  organize   Br. i Austr. zw. organise15:08
KotCzarnyare you british?15:08
dnearyKotCzarny: Irish :)15:08
trickiedneary: im following maemo2midgard-discussion so if i see a task that i can help out on ill get in the mix15:08
dnearyKotCzarny: Organised = deciding what to migrate, identify any tools which might help with the migration15:09
dnearytrickie: Rocks!15:09
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trickieKotCzarny: organised was the original spelling15:09
KotCzarnydneary: i know the meaning of the word15:09
trickieamericans saw fit to need to change it15:09
KotCzarnytrickle: british grammar isn't consistent15:10
dnearyKotCzarny: I assumed you were asking what needed organising, rather than questioning my spelling :)15:10
trickiewe use 'organised' in .au also15:10
KotCzarnyit's just that some person in history decided that or this15:10
dnearyKotCzarny: American usage of English is illogical15:10
trickieKotCzarny: doesn't matter its where the english language came from15:10
dneary"british" grammar is actually "English" grammar15:10
KotCzarnyus english is getting dominant15:11
KotCzarnybecause of the internet :)15:11
GeneralAntillesWoo, go Noah Webster!15:11
timelesstrickie: err...15:11
timelessdon't go near spelling15:11
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timelessdneary: so, did you finish mapping the world?15:14
dnearytimeless: It's taken a back seat to the wiki migration for the next week or so15:14
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timelesswiki migration? :)15:15
RST38hKot: Aluminum forevah!15:18
KotCzarny  aluminum15:19
KotCzarny  Br. i Austr. aluminium15:19
GeneralAntillesI'm rather excited about the mediawiki move. I think it'll finally give us a GOOD central wiki for NIT/maemo stuff. Especially as the itT wiki is mostly just a horrifying abortion.15:19
RST38hFreaked me out when I found out - always though it was "aluminium" for everybody15:19
KotCzarnyin .pl it's aluminium too :)15:20
KotCzarnyand 'glin' if it's a name of element15:20
RST38hShould we add "nucular" to US English vocabulary?15:20
KotCzarnyrst: nucular?15:20
RST38hKot: aluminium in Russian as well15:20
KotCzarnydubia's dict?15:20
RST38hKot: But the ore is known as kaolin15:20
KotCzarnyore != pure element?15:21
RST38hAnd yes, it does look like glina (which is Russian for "mud")15:21
RST38hNo, pure element is Aluminium15:21
* KotCzarny checks15:21
RST38hKot: YouPoles probably call it "glin" because it does come from mud15:21
KotCzarnyno name origin in wikipedia15:23
RST38hBtw, the industrial aluminium extraction process is as close as you can get to hell15:26
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KotCzarnyyeah, alu cans fun15:27
KotCzarnyand no15:27
KotCzarnyblack holes are worse15:27
RST38hyou have better chance of visiting hell by hanging yourself =)15:27
KotCzarnyif human soul is really immortal15:28
KotCzarnythen i will visit at least black hole some day15:28
* patoh would love to see what is in a black hole15:28
patohand somehow report back to prove at least one group wrong :P15:29
patohthan again no one would belive you15:29
RST38hKot: does it bother you that you may visit that blackhole reborn as an ornate horned toad? =)15:29
KotCzarnynot at all15:30
KotCzarnyas i don't believe in reincarnation ;)15:30
RST38hyeh =)15:30
KotCzarnybe afraid, be very afraid ;)15:30
RST38hKit: It has started!15:31
KotCzarnyyeah, they trying to stop us15:31
RST38hLHC is still dormant but IT has started!15:31
KotCzarnybut they are too late15:31
KotCzarnyrst: how do you know it's dormant15:31
KotCzarny'cumming' ?15:32
RST38hKot: true (on how do I know)15:32
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KotCzarny "If you open a computer, you would find a cluster of ants on the motherboard and all over. You'd get 3,000 or 4,000 ants inside and they create arcs. They'll wipe out any computer."15:33
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KotCzarny4k ants in a pc15:34
KotCzarnyi would freak out on 1 in my pc15:34
* RST38h seen mice and mosquitoes in a PC15:35
RST38hmice actually had a nest with babies15:35
trickiei had a laptop that had coffee spilt on it, ants got in and completly stuffed it15:35
KotCzarnywell, 1mice != 4k ants15:35
RST38hKot: nutrition wise, it may well be ==15:36
KotCzarnyrst: horror wise ants rule15:36
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RST38htrickie: yes, but did they arch?!?15:39
RST38h'cause one of those mice arched! =)15:39
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RST38h(and then smelled for a few weeks, until somebody figured out where smell came from)15:39
KotCzarnyfew weeks?15:40
trickieRST38h: :)15:40
KotCzarnythose geeks15:40
KotCzarnyresistant to nature15:40
KotCzarnyPart of the problem is that exterminators have found it nearly impossible to kill the ants. Oh, you can kill some of them - the first wave, maybe. However, there are so many more ants coming behind them, that the first wave falls dead in the insecticide and the subsequent waves merely walk on the dead bodies, keeping themselves out of the poison and safe from harm.15:41
KotCzarny'huston, you have a problem'15:41
RST38hSend the marines!15:41
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KotCzarnyhmm, *houston15:43
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KotCzarnyP.S. look at the bright side they are not flesh eating ants or bees15:44
RST38hit is the bright side?!?15:45
KotCzarnyin your pc, would you like 4k ants not interested in human meat or 4k bees ?15:45
RST38hIn my PC, I would prefer to have no ants at all15:46
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RST38hBut in an average PC in Houston, TX I would like flesh eating, fire breathing, penis burrowing ants15:46
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RST38hAnything that will reduce the population of that place15:47
KotCzarnyi wonder why no one attributed it to a fidel15:47
KotCzarnyor to a god's revenge for dubya15:48
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IR4506do anyone has N810 ?15:48
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JOHNY-7i would like to know if N810 is a 3G15:49
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RST38hKot: No Fidel attribution - 'cause Texans *can* distinguish an ant from a Cuban15:50
RST38hKot: No revenge for Dubya - 'cause it is widely known that Dubya does nt use electronics15:50
GeneralAntillesJOHNY-7, the N810 is not a cellphone.15:50
KotCzarnyrst: but they probably came in a contener from caribbean (spelling?) area15:51
GeneralAntillesIt has a Bluetooth radio and an 802.11g radio.15:51
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RST38hKot: Yea, but Cubans coming in the same containers are usually somewhat larger and darker in color15:51
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KotCzarnyrst, i'm just kidding15:51
JOHNY-7GeneralAntilles? is not a cellphone ?:O15:52
JOHNY-7i can't put my sim card inside?15:52
RST38hGA is not a cellphone either15:52
GeneralAntillesWhat, did you see it and come directly here?15:52
KotCzarnyjohny: no, no sim card15:52
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KotCzarnyjohny: you want gsm data, you connect to a bluetooth gsm phone15:52
RST38hYou may be able to insert a SIM card into him but he won't handshake to the tower15:52
GeneralAntillesYou may not live through the process either.15:53
KotCzarnyjohny: wan't gsm, get an iphone15:53
RST38hor get N810+E5115:53
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JOHNY-7i was ready to buy it for Cell :P15:53
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RST38hand treat it as a portable deskphone15:53
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timelessdisq: i'm lagged15:54
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KotCzarny"Ants On A Plane." lol15:55
JOHNY-7pfff :S15:56
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JOHNY-7ill go back to symbian :P cause win mobile is tooooooo slow15:58
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RST38hYet another happy WinMobile user15:58
KotCzarnyn8x0 is for hackers15:58
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JOHNY-7[RST38h] i was thinking for HTC TyTn II15:59
JOHNY-7but when i show it....15:59
JOHNY-7slowwwwwwww :p15:59
KotCzarnyget an iphone16:00
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JOHNY-7is it faster ?16:00
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KotCzarnyappears to be so16:00
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disqtimeless: that bug is about 4.1 being nonexistent in bugzilla version field16:02
KotCzarnyis it 4.1 released, yet?16:03
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KotCzarnydarn, those ants are scary16:12
timelessdisq: yeah well...16:13
timelessum, "oops" :)16:13
timelessi'd rather get feedback about problems now, w/ some prayer of getting them fixed16:13
timelessthan get bugs tomorrow after the official ship16:13
disqtimeless: there's also a "diablo bug thread" in ITT developers forum section16:14
KotCzarnyhrw, shouldn't main page list sections rather?16:14
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KotCzarnyhrw: thinkwiki has it nicely organized16:14
timelessdisq: afaik people don't read that :)16:15
GeneralAntillesTextrat and others have been pushing the useful bugs from there somewhere internally.16:15
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timelessi hate to ask, but does itt have complaints about microb in diablo?16:22
GeneralAntillesA few.16:23
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GeneralAntillesOnly from non-retarded people, though.16:27
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hrwKotCzarny: feel free to edit ;D16:56
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dnearyAnyone know the nick of Anthony Nguyen?17:03
KotCzarnysounds like 41917:04
KotCzarny(sorry for being stereotypical)17:04
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RST38hNguyen is Vietnamese afaik17:19
RST38hSo, no, wrong stereotype17:19
KotCzarnynap time, bbl17:20
RST38hsleep tight, ants are coming17:20
KotCzarnyi have a terminator in teh building17:21
KotCzarnyi'm not afraid17:21
KotCzarnyhaven't asked about the name17:21
KotCzarnyhe usually says 'terminator' to 'who is it'17:22
KotCzarnyok, night17:22
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timelessok, i did my one good deed for the day17:49
timelesswe'll try to finally fix the hardware key submits instead of opening finger keyboard :(17:49
timelessno guaranteees17:49
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GeneralAntillesThe latest Diablo MicroB is hilariously non-functional where the finger keyboard is concerned. <_<17:52
timelessgot a list of bugs?17:52
timelessi just pushed 2405 to a dev, hopefully we'll fix it this week17:53
timelesssadly most people don't remember the n80017:53
timelessin fact, it was "hard" for me to find an n800 to demo the bug :)17:53
GeneralAntillesYeah, that one is currently rather ludicrous.17:53
timelessfwiw, the summary's very wrong17:54
timelessit has nothing to do w/ the start page17:54
timelessi seem to recall explaining the bug to someone17:54
qwerty12My biggest fault in MicroB is sometimes, when using the normal touch screen keyboard, tapping backspace on a input field closes the touch screen keyboard and sends the backspace signal to the browser which goes a page back.17:54
timelessbut i clearly didn't comment in the bug17:54
GeneralAntillesstart page is where I experience it17:54
timelessbut it doesn't relate to start page17:54
timelessit's any <input> in any submitable form17:54
GeneralAntillesI can't guess that. :P17:54
timelessdata:text/html,<form action="data:text/plain,"><input>17:54
timelesstry it17:54
timelessheck, once you're satisfied, fill in the url field and fix the summary :)17:55
timelessqwerty12: got a bug # and testcase?17:55
GeneralAntillesI don't disagree, but guessing that at the time of bug submission was a highly unlikely occurrence. ;)17:56
qwerty12timeless, Don't really check the bugzilla much. I find it randomly happens but most of the time with the Internet Tablet Talk quick reply.17:56
timelessqwerty12: hrm17:56
timelesssounds like focus changed and the ime didn't kill itself17:56
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timelessthe problem is that i think we're actually *required* to honor backspace= go back for the hardware+bt keyboards17:57
timeless(this is insane imo, but ...)17:57
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* timeless has lost just about every ui decision imaginable17:57
timeless(hrm, forget imaginable, i never imagined needing to decide or explain any of these points)17:58
qwerty12Can't there be a gconf value somewhere? I already know that on first boot it runs different commands depending on which RX it is running off.17:58
GeneralAntillesHopefully that bugzilla component for that damnable UI spec gets some traction. :\17:58
timelessqwert12: hrm17:58
timelesshave you seen
qwerty12Yeah, I saw that one :)17:58
timelessdepending on how "clever" we were, you may be able to do something for goback17:58
timelesstraditionally goback is boudn in a similar way17:59
timelessi'm not sure if it is in our system17:59
timelessi'm also fairly certain i don't want to look17:59
qwerty12Ah, ok, thanks. I'll see if I can take a look sometime in that mozilla file.17:59
GeneralAntillesWould this be a better summary: "Center d-pad press sends blank form instead of activating finger keyboard when input field is highlighted"17:59
timelessgeneral: doesn't matter if it's blank or not17:59
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timelessd-pad press is treated as <enter> key triggering form submit18:00
timelesss/^/center /18:00
timelessuse my text to replace your Center...form18:00
timelessfwiw, try it w/ data:text/html,<textarea>18:01
timelessyou'll see it sends both the <enter> and opens the fkb :)18:01
johnxconfirmed :)18:01
timelessactually, include that as part of the url...18:01
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GeneralAntillesOh, also, enter in the finger keyboard closes the finger keyboard instead of sending the form/url.18:02
timelessand include steps to show both bugs and expected results/actual18:02
timelessthat's funny, but please treat that as a distinct bug18:02
GeneralAntillesWhich was something that actually got a lot better in everything ELSE in Diablo, except MicroB.18:02
timelesskeep in mind that web browsers basically reimplement everything18:02
GeneralAntillesThough, strangely, just better, instead of FIXED. <_<18:03
timelessbecause they have to18:03
timelessyou can't honestly tell me you're surprised by that? :)18:03
GeneralAntillesNo, I can't.18:03
GeneralAntillesBut if I think about the fact that I'm not surprised I'll just get depressed.18:03
timelessanyway, if you have bugs, i think there's time to report them18:03
GeneralAntillesNot that we have a 4.1. . . .18:03
timelessso please, report... let's try to have a relatively debug'd version :)18:04
timelessum... yeah well... enough people have that leaked version to go bug hunting18:04
* qwerty12 coughs18:04
qwerty12So where are those bugs reported?18:04
timelessi'd prefer you file them in bugs.maemo.org18:05
timelessi'll try to find people to pull them in18:05
timelessbe sure to include the system information18:05
timeless(especially the week number so that people recognize it isn't the official release)18:05
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GeneralAntillesOK, I guess we do have a 4.1 now.18:05
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timelessyeah *cough*18:06
timeless"oops" ;-)18:06
timelesshistorically people have actually been given prereleases and filed bugs in w/ a private flag18:06
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qwerty12Is there a chinook equivalent of the gtk-infoprint.h? :/18:07
GeneralAntillesWhat's the term for the drop-down on the URL bar?18:07
timelesssays not by that name18:07
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qwerty12Ah, thanks :/18:08
infobotqwerty12: bitte18:09
RST38hhello qwerty18:09
qwerty12hi RST38h :)18:09
timelessis probably what you want18:09
timelessif i were to hazard a guess18:09
qwerty12I'll try it out, many thanks :)18:09
timelessthe xref is your friend :)18:09
qwerty12I've never really understood it before but now I will try and use it :)18:10
timelessmind you, figuring out you want a note from infoprint isn't easy or obvious18:10
timelessis probably the evidence of its death18:12
qwerty12Hehe, I need a copy in my fight for USB Networking.18:13
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timelessok, so um... any other major bugs i should know about? :)18:28
GeneralAntillesNope, only two I've run into.18:29
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johnxbug: my n800 doesn't make rainbows or dispense chocolate18:30
GeneralAntillesActually, no, there's one more than I've experienced once.18:30
GeneralAntillesand one that at least 2 others have experienced and was apparently reported internally by Mara.18:30
GeneralAntillesThe ITT frontpage seems to render funny sometimes.18:31
GeneralAntillesThere are screenshots included on that post.18:31
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keesjtimeless: did you look at the survey one ?
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* qwerty12 wishes infobot didn't come back.18:35
GeneralAntillesSomebody go find TimRiker and beat him with a stick.18:35
TimRiker~lart GeneralAntilles18:36
* infobot blasts GeneralAntilles with a huge firehose then strangles GeneralAntilles with it18:36
infobotGeneralAntilles: my pleasure18:36
GeneralAntillesNo more of that, please.18:36
qwerty12That's actually a good curse.18:36
qwerty12Compared to what it normally says :/18:36
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timelesskeesjy: i meant to18:42
timelesslemme do that now18:42
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timelesskeesj: ok, first thing i see, the page doesn't fit on my device18:43
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timelessum, could you reduce the select problem into a simple page and file a bug for just that?18:44
timelessit's um... *bad*18:44
timelesswhat idiot decided that American (nationality) was a language?18:44
johnxso you can't speak American?18:45
keesj:p so you can at least reproduce it . ok18:45
timelessi suppose i should say "which idiot"18:45
* timeless sighs and goes back to reviewing slides written by a humble non native speaker18:45
timelessa wise humble non native speaker...18:45
timelessone wise enough to ask for a review...18:45
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timelessbtw, are there supposed to be other slides?18:46
timelessall it asks me for is my language18:46
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keesjthis was already a copy or course there are about 60 slides so ...18:46
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timelessanyway, please reduce and find/file a bug18:47
timelessthat sucks :(18:47
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timelessi know there was a bug where you played pong w/ quim18:49
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timelessit's probably best to just use another bug18:49
keesjyes , perhaps it really is a css issue18:50
timelessoh brother18:50
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timelesssomeone wants me to verify the ssl fix18:50
timelessanyone know how to verify it?18:51
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johnxis this the debian related thing?18:51
johnxverify a "suitable" amount of entropy?18:51
timelessa guy is stupid enough to file a bug to derail a release18:52
timelessand what thanks does he get18:52
timelesshe's obligated to verify the fix18:52
timelessthat'll teach me never to file critical bugs18:52
andre___obligated? who sid that?18:53
timelessinternal politics18:53
timelessor bean counting18:53
johnxuse the entropy to make a random number, let 10 N8x0s sit their generating random numbers for 3 days, make sure the numbers look random18:53
andre___people are not obligated at all. it would just be nice if  they could confirm it18:54
timelessemployees are obligated18:54
timelesspeople are special18:54
timelessemployees are not people18:54
andre___ah, employees - thats okay indeed18:54
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timelessoh sure, no sympathy18:54
andre___thought you refered to users18:54
andre___well - of course it could also be done by qa18:55
andre___nokia's decision how to organize that :-)18:55
timelesssadly, it ought to be done by someone who has a clue18:56
timelessand in this case, i don't know anyone who qualifies18:56
dougtis there any difference between launch an application from SSH, and launching the same application via an the gui?  For example, is it a fair test to ssh into the device, run fennec, and measure performance?  Or is there something special when you double tap on an icon that launches fennec?  Reason I am asking is that there are some reports of better perf when not ssh'ing in.18:56
timelessthat includes me18:56
andre___argh, understand18:56
timelessdougt: i did my measurement from ssh18:56
timelessare you using wifi or usb for ssh?18:57
timelesskeep in mind that you might be influencing the network stack18:57
timelesstry usb?18:57
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timelessi like the changes to the commented out block18:58
timelessanyway, the touchscreen driver is fairly sensitive18:58
timelesswe found all sorts of things changed behaviors18:58
timelesse.g. using the serial console18:58
timelessyou should talk to sp300018:59
timelesshe can connect you to people who know more/better18:59
dougtdid you see my patch to expose mouse pressure in the DOM?18:59
dougtpretty cool demo.18:59
timelessi missed it18:59
timelessare you trying to put maemopadplus out of business?19:00
dougtno, i just want to make the web better.19:00
* dougt looks at maemopadplus19:00
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timelessfor a while maemopadplus was used to help people demonstrate how busted their n800 touchscreens were :)19:01
GeneralAntillesI hope the N900 has a slightly less-shitty touchscreen. . . .19:01
qwerty12I hope the N900 is what the N800 isn't.19:02
qwerty12/wierd mode over.19:02
timelessdougt: fwiw, most toucpads on windows expose pressure19:02
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timelessso you should add it for win3219:02
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timelessbut keep in mind that people will start breaking the web19:03
timelessby requiring/expecting the feature19:03
timelessmicrob is already hosed because of this19:03
Knirchoh god yes please, break the web!19:03
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Knirchbring gopher back! Bring Gopher Back! *rallies*19:03
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timelessdougt: i'd agrue that by default apps should not be allowed access to pressure information19:04
dougttimeless: i disagree that it breaks the web.19:05
timelessdougt: if someone writes an app that requires pressure19:05
timelessand i'm using a browser that isn't pressure enabled19:05
timelessi'm locked out19:05
timelessthis is not good.19:05
sp3000timeless, dougt: eero seems to watch maemo-developers19:05
sp3000but I suppose one thing to check is if you're spewing enough through ssh to slow things down, indeed :)19:06
qwerty12scratchbox: "configure: error: Your system doesn't have "bc", which has been a standard part of Unix since the 1970s.  Come back when your vendor has grown a clue."19:07
johnxqwerty12, what distro?19:07
RST38hpoor poor vendor19:07
qwerty12No distro :). Maemo SDK :p19:07
RST38hpoor poor configure19:07
RST38hqwerty: do you want a setup that will not require qutoconf & fiends?19:07
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johnxyeah...I kinda hate people's configure scripts a lot of the time...19:08
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timelesssp3000: help19:08
qwerty12I don't mind compiling bc etc, that error made me chuckle :)19:08
infobotqwerty12: my pleasure19:08
* qwerty12 beats the shit out of infobot19:08
NaviI built bc already.19:08
dougttimeless: there are a bunch of DOM features that are going to be optional.19:08
* RST38h remembers creating a project in KDevelop - the system hung for about 5 minutes and, when stopped, managed to create >200 files in the project directory19:08
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, just highlight TimRiker everytime it does that. :P19:09
dougttimeless: GPS/location, pressure, camera, etc.19:09
timelessdougt: features can't be optional19:09
RST38hautoconf, automake, copy of GPL, whatever19:09
timelessyou need to let users set values19:09
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, hehe19:09
timelessdoing otherwise is discriminatory19:09
timelessand you have to let the users lie19:09
TimRikerGeneralAntilles: it's a lame bug introduced by troubled. spam him. :)19:09
timelessesp gps19:09
befordhello, I've started running out of space on the internal memory for n810, i installed severals apps, downloaded cover art for my mp3, etc. I've got a microSD of 8gb. What kind of files can I move to the microsd? I've already moved the covers folder, and symlinked it. but I dont know what else should I move.19:09
timelessbut also camera19:09
timelessif someone tries to use a camera on a device that doesn't have a camera19:10
GeneralAntillesbeford, delete the documentation PDFs.19:10
GeneralAntillesThat's 32MB or so right there.19:10
timelessthe user should be able to feed the app an image19:10
dougttimeless: have you looked at any of the capabilities spec?19:10
qwerty12And the weird tracks included with the N810/N800. Where's my RnB and grime and hip-hop!?!19:10
timelessdoubtful mailto timeless@gmail19:11
GeneralAntillesOh be quite Mr. I-have-no-taste-in-music19:11
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Oh be quiet Mr. I-have-no-taste-in-music19:11
elbheh yeah the tracks that come on the 810 are pretty lame19:11
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, Just stick with your Bob Marley ;)19:11
elbI dunno about RnB and hip-hop, but still19:12
mrlanratAnd the music video.19:12
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RST38hNEC "invented" heart shaped LCD19:13
qwerty12NEC are cheesy19:13
RST38hhow touching!19:13
qwerty12Baby! I gave you my heart,19:14
mrlanratWow, who would buy sutch a thing?19:14
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qwerty12RST38h keeps a few for himself19:14
* RST38h wonders how marketing department managed to justify that19:14
johnxI think I know some people...19:14
qwerty12Don't be shy johnx!19:14
johnxis this sold only in Japan by any chance?19:14
GeneralAntillesTimRiker, he says it's a non-reproducible bug unique to your bot, and that you should revert back to
NaviYay for Japanese overpriced consumer electronics19:15
johnx...with incredibly cutesy themes19:15
TimRikerGeneralAntilles: thanx for the obvious.19:15
GeneralAntillesThe people suffering here are the ones at the receiving end of the spambot. ;)19:16
NaviHello Kitty Heart Shaped LCDs - BUY NOW!19:16
qwerty12Lets keep on excess flooding the bot :p19:16
qwerty12Navi, Sure, where from?19:16
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befordIs the 'n810' storage different to the 'Internal memory card' storage?19:17
GeneralAntillesThere are 2 parts19:17
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GeneralAntillesThe internal flash memory where the OS is which is 256MB19:17
GeneralAntillesand the internal soldered-on SD card that's 2GB.19:17
befordok, so all the apps are installed on the 256 mb?19:18
GeneralAntillesI recommend investigating booting from an SD.19:18
TimRikerGeneralAntilles: should be fixed now.19:20
GeneralAntillesWonderful. Thanks, TimRiker. :)19:20
qwerty12w00t, infobot isn't replying :)19:20
johnxthanks for shutting the hell up infobot!19:20
qwerty12infobot, I <3 you again :wub:19:21
infobotYou <3 you again :wub:?19:21
qwerty12That would be going round in circles...19:21
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GnutonQt 4.4.0 packages with webkit are available for maemo19:22
Gnutonon qt4.garage.maemo.org19:23
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befordwhat's the worst thing it could happen if a firmware update/installation goes wrong19:26
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keesjtimeless: it is a font thingy (me will bug later)19:26
timelessyou have an expensive brick19:26
timelesssay ~$45019:26
GeneralAntillesWell, if it goes wrong during the NOLO flash you'd need a serial JTAG cable to flash that again.19:27
qwerty12Even with a serial cable that could be fixed19:27
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qwerty12General beat me to it.19:27
GeneralAntillesBut that's incredibly unlikely.19:27
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GeneralAntillesand even if it fails at any OTHER point, you can still reflash again without issue.19:27
timelesskeesj: be sure to tell people to use 100% zoom19:27
qwerty12I've only seen 2 people brick theirs on ITT and thats only because they were writing to mtd from the tablet, not from an update.19:27
timeless@80% zoomm the bug isn't visible :)19:27
johnxI've never actually heard of anyone bricking their tablet with any official Nokia flashing tool19:28
GeneralAntillesYes, NOLO is extremely small and the flasher moves quite rapidly.19:28
qwerty12I've never bricked mine with 0xFFFF, forget official :)19:28
timelesswell, someone asked what was possible19:29
timelessi love answering such questions :)19:29
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GeneralAntillesYes, scaring users out of updating their tablets is definitely the way to go. :P19:30
johnxtimeless, oh c' can make up a better worst case scenario than that! :P19:30
qwerty12timeless, Wrong place to ask but can you please put back the confirmation when asking to update the package list? I use it to see when application manager is non busy and tapping it in diablo makes it busy again :/19:30
johnxwhat about some random single bit error while flashing bme or something?19:30
qwerty12Does bme get flashed? I thought bme was a proggie on initfs?19:30
GeneralAntillesinitfs gets flashed. :P19:31
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GeneralAntillesI like your thinking, though, johnx.19:31
johnx"flashed" is kind of a confusing word with NAND I think...19:31
johnxGeneralAntilles, I try to be a good pessimist19:31
GeneralAntillesSo, instead of a $450 brick, you end up with a $450 grenade and no fingers. :D19:32're still not thinking big picture19:32
GeneralAntillesEducate me in the ways of pessimism, master.19:32
johnxin the *worst* case it lights on fire next to your curtains in the middle of the night and burns down your apartment complex19:33
GeneralAntillesand the orphanage next door?19:33
johnxdon't forget the old folks home on the other side19:33
GeneralAntillesI . . . think I understand now.19:33
qwerty12If it burnt down my neighbours house, I wouldn't be pessimistic...19:33
timelesssorry, you're right19:34
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GeneralAntillesHey, you have bad neighbors, too, qwerty12? :D19:34
timelessit is possible to cause your device to blow up19:34
* GeneralAntilles my neighbors breed pitbulls.19:34
timelessif you mess up the battery charger regulation mechanism19:34
johnxconfirmation for Nokia! I'll start a thread on ITT! woo!19:34
infobotjohnx meant: confirmation from Nokia! I'll start a thread on ITT! woo!19:34
Mouseyconfromation on what?19:34
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, Yep :). The dodgy music they put on at 11PM in the night and I swear they go into our garden...19:34
GeneralAntillesThat flashing your device will result in it blowing up. :D19:34
timelessno no19:35
timelessif you use an unofficial flash or somehow void your warrantee19:35
timelesssomething like that could happen19:35
qwerty12Don't worry, we got logs :p. Timeless confirmed it :P19:35
Mouseyuh huh19:35
johnxyeah and I'm the only one offering insurance for this important issue! :D19:36
johnxyou wouldn't want anything *bad* to happen to your tablet, now would'ya?19:36
* GeneralAntilles thinks we somebody should alert Darius.19:36
JaffaNokia support terrorists!19:37
johnxtimeless, Darius is semi-famous for his "interesting" posts on ITT and maemo-dev19:37
timeless:( please don't quote me19:37
timelessi don't want to get in trouble19:37
timelessbut basically if you do void your warrantee19:37
GeneralAntillesHehe, we're only kidding. ;)19:37
timelessand say directly apply voltage to the battery or something19:38
timelessit should be possible to make it at least smoke if not do something worse19:38
qwerty12Make it rain19:38
timelessi'm not sure how, but i suspect that a chemist could explain19:38
summatusmentiswell, you see...19:38
johnxyeah definitely. I've heard the stories about RC plane guys having Li-Ion batteries go up from improper charging19:38
* summatusmentis is not a chemist19:39
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GeneralAntillesdariusjack2006 at is his email on the lists.19:39
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* qwerty12 is happy that diablo's apt has autoremove19:45
befordjust wondering, when I type exit on the X terminal, it seems to closes busybox, but osso_xterm keeps running. that's *normal* right?19:46
sp3000beford: bug19:46
qwerty12It's a bug. Grab a svn version where it was fixed.19:46
GeneralAntillesBehavior is fixed in Diablo.19:46
summatusmentisdiablo? is that OS2008 4.1?19:46
summatusmentisDiablo is also the Nokia software used for flashing phones IIRC19:46
qwerty12That's Phoenix ;)19:47
summatusmentiswell, Phoenix for some phones19:47
johnxit's also...ya'know...the devil19:47
summatusmentisolder phones used Diablo, I think19:47
summatusmentisjohnx: well, yes :)19:47
qwerty12It's phoenix for all the new BB5 phones.19:47
qwerty12Diego is the old one19:47
summatusmentisoh... yeah, Diego19:47
qwerty12Ironically, N800 is BB5 so Phoenix has N800 support too.19:48
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summatusmentisI can't type, nvm19:48
summatusmentisI'm gonna break down and do it19:49
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summatusmentisI'm pretty sure I'm buying an N810 within the next few days19:49
qwerty12Go on, you know you want to :p19:49
summatusmentisI do want to, most definitely19:49
summatusmentisit's a matter of whether or not I can19:49
summatusmentisneed to make sure the check won't bounce, all that19:50
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summatusmentisalright, leaving now.19:51
summatusmentispeace all19:51
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* qwerty12 MUST get rocks and diamonds compiled :/19:52
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befordthere is an application that says 'teach handwriting' but I can't see any app to handwrite :|19:59
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johnxit's an input method19:59
fysatouch to bring up the stylus keypad20:00
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johnxin the small keyboard click the lowest left key I think20:00
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fysathen there is a button on that keyboard that lets you switch to handwriting20:00
fysayes, lower left20:00
jdiazcan the external flash memory be used as swap memory on n810?20:01
GeneralAntillesjdiaz, Control Panel: Memory -> Virtual tab20:01
jdiazcontrol panel only gives the option of using the internal flash memory20:01
GeneralAntillesIt'll use the internal with GUI20:02
GeneralAntillesYou could change it to external if you wanted, though.20:02
qwerty12jdiaz, Make a swap file with dd and use swapon20:02
GeneralAntillesJust not through the GUI.20:02
jdiazGA, thanks, that is what I was asking for20:02
eocanhamaemo_4-0_tutorial recommends the usage of gtk_window_fullscreen() and gtk_window_unfullscreen() but, is there any way to know the current fullscreen state of a window?20:02
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eocanhabeford: you have to select one letter in the left list and you'll see its current handwriting patterns20:05
eocanhathen you can click on "Add" button to add a new pattern for that letter.20:06
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befordyea but, I'm still unable to use handwriting my virtual keyboard still doesn't appear20:08
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jdiazhmm.. before creating the swap file with dd, should I defragment the unit? Or the defragmenting concept is not applicable to flash drives?20:09
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PhosphoricXAnybody know a good tutorial on setting up sbrsh, especially with ESBox. I've followed the Maemo HOWTO, but I'm still having problems20:09
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johnxjdiaz, exactly. the "sectors" reported by an SD card aren't really the way the data is organized on the card20:09
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jdiazso I can't jump ahead to dd/mkswap/swapon20:10
johnxyou can20:10
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eocanhabeford: do you see a popup appearing? It says "draw desired shape in the entry area" (translated back from spanish), and shows a box similar to the one in the virtual keyboard, but doesn't really show the virtual keyboard itself20:10
jdiazyes, I can, sorry. That's what I intended to write :-)20:10
befordgot it working :] I had disabled stylus input method on the control panel20:10
befordit was probably me, heh.20:11
johnxjdiaz, kind of what I thought. I figured I'd be clear though. :)20:11
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jdiazeocanha, español?20:11
jdiazme too20:12
befordyo too20:12
eocanhahehe, I supposed that from your surname20:12
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befordthere is a #maemo-es channel registered but is dead20:15
beford-ChanServ-      Channel: #maemo-es20:16
beford-ChanServ-      Contact: Skyhusker20:16
beford-ChanServ-   Registered: 2 years 30 weeks (19h 3m 9s) ago20:16
beford-ChanServ-    Last Used: 2 years 23 weeks 4 days (2h 26m 24s) ago20:16
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lopzmm how actualice scale in python+gtk+gstreamer ? for control position the file multimedia :\20:19
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jdiazHum... I created a swapfile on /media/mmc1 using dd and mkswap, and then swapon. All this was almost instantaneous20:38
jdiazhowever, when using the GUI, a progress bar is displayed, and it takes a lot of time to complete20:38
jdiazwhat is it doing?20:38
johnxI really don't know20:39
zapfilling with zeros perhaps :)20:39
jdiazthat is what dd is for, and it takes less than half of the time20:39
jdiazwell, it doesn't matter much20:39
zapwell I think the sources should be available :)20:39
elbyou didn't skip= did you?20:39
jdiazi didn't... where I sould did it?20:40
zapin dd20:40
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elbskip= will make dd much faster, but it's not safe20:40
elb(well, not safe on filesystems which support sparse files, anyway)20:41
zapare you sure you mean skip?20:41
zapskip just skips blocks in output20:41
zapand fills previous sectors with zero you mean?20:41
elbno, it doesn't do anything to the previous sectors20:42
elbit seeks to the skipped point before writing20:42
zapit depends on file system20:42
elbso on filesystems which support sparse files, those blocks won't be allocated20:42
zapsafe filesystems will fill with zeros20:42
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elb"safe" isn't the issue, really20:42
zapon filesystems which support sparse files anything won't be written to disk afaik20:42
elbwhen you read back, you'll get zeroes20:42
zapsame when you write zeros, some fs will optimize out such writes20:43
elbbut it's dangeorus for swap files, because you can oversubscribe your disk space using sparse files20:43
elbno filesystem I'm aware of optimizes out blocks of zeroes20:43
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elbthat's a lot of overhead20:43
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elbanyway, if he didn't use it, that's not the answer to the speed question, which is the only reason I asked20:43
zapI have read about this not so long ago20:44
zapperhaps about ext4 or ocfs220:44
elbcompressed filesystems might do such a thing, that's the only place it makes sense20:44
elbverifying that a block is full of zeroes means you have to touch every byte20:44
elbwhich is Not Cool20:44
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zapwell, when you read blocks from /dev/zero I'm not sure they really exist20:45
elbthey do20:45
zapthey could be just marked somehow until first access20:45
elbwhatever reads from /dev/zero actually gets zeroes20:45
zapsure it does, when it accesses it20:46
PhosphoricXHow do the permissions work with sbrsh? I keep getting "permission denied"20:46
elbI'm not sure where you're getting this information, but I think it's unfounded speculation20:46
elband it's not related to johnx's question anyway20:46
elberr, jdiaz20:46
PhosphoricXThe sbrshd log tells me that it's trying to use an invalid uid and gid20:46
johnxI actually scrolled back to see if I had asked a question and then totally forgotten...20:47
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johnxThat's totally the kind of thing I would do... ;)20:47
myscanyone else notice the n810 battery cover is not airtight, a tad loose and battery moves20:48
elbI'm not sure why you'd expect it to be airtight20:48
elbmine isn't "loose", but you can move it around a little with a bit of force20:49
myscnot literally airtight, but if you press it on the left side it does depress20:49
befordis there any option to lock the applets on the home screen?20:50
johnxthere's an enhancement request on though, I believe20:50
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myscelb, yours doesn't at all?20:51
elbdoesn't what?20:51
befordits a PITA to move them to the right places20:51
myscflip it over and with your thumbs slide it downwards, doesn't it give a bit?20:51
elbyes, as I said, it will move around with a bit of force20:52
zapelb: can you look at drivers/char/mem.c? Look at function read_zero_pagealigned()20:52
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elbzap: what am I looking at?20:53
zapit first does zap_page_range() there, then zeromap_page_range()20:53
zaphow /dev/zero works20:53
zaplinux kernel I mean20:53
elbsure, what's your point?20:53
zapit doesn't fill pages with zeros20:54
keesjis there a mmmmeting today?20:54
zapit just marks them as 'needs to be zeroed when accessed'20:54
elbsure it does, it's just deferred20:54
elbnothing will ever see pages which aren't zero-filled20:55
zapso when you're writing them to some device, someone could detect such pages20:55
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zapand it doesn't have to scan it to know that it's filled with zeros20:55
thopiekarhi @ all20:55
elbthis is wild speculation again20:55
zapbut you said the same about /dev/zero :)20:55
elbno, I didn't20:55
thopiekarwho of you worked with alsa-oss?20:55
elbI never said anything about /dev/zero which wasn't correct20:55
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elbthe *manner* in which the zero pages are created is irrelevant -- userspace *really does* read zeroes20:55
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zapyes, but if you just do read()/write() you don't actually access the pages20:56
elbI assume, by the fact that you found that, that you understand how the MMU works at at least some basic level20:56
elbthe kernel will access them when it writes20:56
zapthe pages will be handed to the block device driver in a iob20:56
elbyes, it's possible that the write() path reaches deep into the VM subsystem to find out if the pages have ever been initialized -- but that would be a pretty gross hack20:56
zapor to the fs20:56
thopiekari'm searching for /etc/modules.d/alsa but i can't find it on my it20:57
elbfor more or less no benefit20:57
zapperhaps you're right20:57
thopiekarcan someone help me?20:57
zapthopiekar: there's no ALSA in N810 :)20:57
thopiekarwhat's about mplayer?20:57
Yjohas anyone here had any luck setting up usbnet with vista?20:58
thopiekari can use it with alsa..20:58
elbit also ties every write path which wants to do so to specific architectures, which is ugly20:58
zapthopiekar: there is some virtual alsa device which routes sound through /dev/dsp/pcm*20:58
johnxthopiekar, what exactly are you trying to do?20:59
thopiekari wanna use alsa-oss to hear music from the mediaplayer20:59
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johnxthe built-in media player?21:00
thopiekarand "link" it to my bluetooth earspeaker21:00
thopiekarusing a2dp21:00
zapit already does that21:00
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zapmediaplayer plays through gstreamer21:00
johnxbut it can't output to a2dp21:00
thopiekarbut not trough a2dp21:00
zapif you're connected via bluetooth to some device21:00
zapwhich supports the respective protocol21:01
zapit will play via it21:01
zapI've connected via BT to my laptop and to my surprise music started to come out of laptop speakers21:01
qwerty12_N800He doesn't want to use hfp or hsp21:01
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elbhah nice21:01
johnxzap, only for hsp, not a2dp21:01
thopiekarthats it21:01
zapI'm not a bluetooth guru though21:01
elbso the it provides an a2dp *output*?21:01
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zapno idea really :) it just worked for me21:02
thopiekarno it is "hackable"21:02
elboh, you mean the other way around21:02
thopiekartrough alsa21:02
myscshit, my "t" key sends two keypresses21:02
elbthe it played out of the laptop speakers?21:02
thopiekarright johnx??^^21:02
myscdid i get a DOA model?21:02
elbmysc: does it always do it?21:02
zapn810 plays through laptop speakers21:02
elbthe 810 keys are a bit bouncy21:02
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elbbut I don't have any which consistently bounce21:02
myscit's the only key which does it21:02
johnxthopiekar, yeah, you can do a2dp through mplayer without too much trouble...but it doesn't work that well21:02
elband a t key that doubles isn't "DOA" ;-)21:02
Yjohas anyone found Vista drivers that work with n800 usb networking?21:03
thopiekari know ... i checked out you thread on ott21:03
myscwell it ain't good21:03
johnxthopiekar, however, I don't think anyone's found out a way to get it working with the built-in media player21:03
johnxits output device isn't configurable, if I understand correctly21:04
johnxit outputs directly through gstreamer21:04
thopiekarisn't it possible to use alsa-oss to fix this?21:04
myscelb, the21:04
johnxI don't think so21:04
myscthe "t" and "u" do it. and the "t" makes a u21:05
zapthere are no OSS nor ALSA hw devices21:05
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qwerty12_N800Does gstreamer use oss? I thought it was esd.21:05
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johnxthopiekar, it depends on the chain of gstreamer "sinks" media player uses21:05
johnxqwerty12_N800, I'm thinking neither21:05
thopiekar"aoss /usr/bin/*mediaplayer-bin" works fine21:05
zapsome sinks in gstreamer routes sound directly to DSP21:05
zapand there's no output from them21:05
thopiekarbut the sound comes out of the "default" pcm21:05
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qwerty12_N800thopiekar, try aoss on the osso-media-server21:06
johnxthopiekar, the alsa "devices" on the tablet are an emulation21:06
johnxthey're not the real hardware devices21:06
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thopiekarqwerty12_N800, I tried... it works...21:07
qwerty12_N800What works?21:07
thopiekarjohnx, is it possible to port alsa?21:07
zapmplayer for n810 has no OSS support21:07
Khertan_n810Hi !21:07
zapalsa is there21:07
zapyou don't have to port it :)21:07
thopiekarjust emulated...21:08
johnxthopiekar, gstreamer access the dsp directly and uses it to play sound21:08
Khertan_n810someone can help me i m looking for extras autorized section21:08
zapnot quite true21:08
zapit's the native alsa libs, just that there are only 'software' output devices21:08
thopiekarI wanna port alsa without emulating21:08
zapyou cannot21:08
X-FadeKhertan_n810: What's up?21:08
johnxthopiekar, you would need to write an entirely new sound driver21:08
johnxthopiekar, on a desktop linux system it looks like this: mplayer -> alsa -> sound hardware21:09
Khertan_n810x-fade : i m fine and u21:09
thopiekarisn't it possible to get the gstreamers one (driver)?21:09
zapthopiekar: that your bluetooth program, it intercepts OSS or ALSA?21:09
johnxthopiekar, on the tablet it looks like this: mplayer -> alsa layer -> gstreamer -> dsp -> sound hardware21:09
X-FadeKhertan_n810: Debugging some new features for the autobuilder.21:09
Khertan_n810i ll publish in a few minutes to extras devel my own calendar application ... with google calendar sync21:10
johnxKhertan_n810, woo!21:10
Khertan_n810i just need to found the right section21:10
X-FadeKhertan_n810: I'll give you a lit.. I'll look it up.21:10
Khertan_n810johnx : it s still alpha21:10
thopiekarzap, if you mean the player.. i want to bypass every oss-player into alsa with a2dp to my bluetooth speakers21:10
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zapthopiekar: that aoss program... it intercepts access to /dev/dsp ?21:11
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thopiekarhas dsp something like a2dp??21:11
zapDSP is just a number crunching device21:11
thopiekaraoss is a script from alsa-oss21:12
zapwith access to sound hardware, if I understand correctly21:12
Khertan_n810johnx : reccurent event time dont sync on google ... but it ll be fixed in a few days21:12
johnxKhertan_n810, i'll still play with it. :)21:12
thopiekarif you use you packagemanager in redpill, you will see it in your list..21:12
Khertan_n810and of course there is a home applet21:12
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zapwhat is redpill by the way... often referenced on tableeter forums?21:12
thopiekar"it emulates oss for alsa"21:13
qwerty12_N800enter the matrix21:13
zapqwerty12_N800: which matrix exactly :)21:13
zapthopiekar: well you don't have to emulate OSS here, mplayer can use alsa directly21:13
Khertan_n810i must go on ...21:13
GeneralAntilleszap, enables a few extra features in Application manager and lets you see stuff outside of User/21:13
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Khertan_n810x-fade > i come back in twenty minute21:13
zapGeneralAntilles: cool, and how one does it? :)21:14
GeneralAntilleszap, google. :P21:14
zapIt allows to install any package that apt-search will show you?21:14
zappH5: thank you21:14
thopiekarzap, i know... i wanna emulate oss ( which is used by the "onboard" mediaplayer) to hear music on my bluetooth speakers with alsa+a2dp!21:15
GeneralAntilleszap, it's largely pointless.21:15
GeneralAntilles95% of the stuff outside of User/ doesn't need to be installed by the user.21:15
zapGeneralAntilles: perhaps you're right, but it's a easter egg ;-)21:15
X-Fadethopiekar: Isn't it easier to just play your media via mplayer and a2dp ?21:15
myscelb, sounds like i got a defective one, eh?21:16
qwerty12_N800When bt headset is connected, how is all sound intercepted by hfp/hsp?21:16
GeneralAntillesand everything else you might as well just install through apt-get since you'll be in xterm when you need it anyway.21:16
zapmysc: a defective what?21:16
myscn810. both the "t" and "u" produce a "tu" when clicked21:16
zapmysc: it seems you shouldn't drink coffee over the n810 ;-)21:16
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myscit's my first boot! nothing was spilled21:17
thopiekaryes it is... but i want to feel the possibilities of my it^^21:17
johnxqwerty12_N800, If I understand right, it actually gets sent into the dsp, mixed, and send back out21:17
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X-Fadethopiekar: You mean pain, agony and suffering? :)21:17
zapback out???21:17
johnxzap, I'm a little fuzzy on this process too21:18
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qwerty12_N800johnx, ahh :(. hope lardman ever gets sbc-dsp workng21:18
zapjohnx: perhaps you're right, what if I play accelerated mp3, it should go to bt as well21:18
johnxqwerty12_N800, yes...though I tested the latest bluez on debian just a bit ago21:18
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johnxzap, yes21:18
thopiekarno^^ fun of hacking out possibilities^^21:18
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johnxzap and qwerty12_N800, don't take my word without a grain of salt...21:19
zapsure we don't, we're all trying to guess here :()21:19
qwerty12_N800sure :)21:20
zapopensource, doh :)21:20
johnxa lot of my picture of the situation comes from post #8 on this bug:
thopiekarthis would fix my problem:21:22
thopiekarwho of you is working on it?21:22
zapI hope he's working on it21:23
zapand not chitchatting here ;-)21:23
johnxthopiekar, ironically, it probably wouldn't solve your problem with media player21:23
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johnxthough I could be mistaken21:23
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zapisn't this what you look for:
johnxthopiekar, your problem is that media player very specifically tells gstreamer *exactly* what to do with audio21:24
* qwerty12_N800 loves nokia and their oss stuff. /sarcasm21:25
johnxthis sbc-dsp encoder would (at first) just be a way to accelerate the sbc encoding and then pass it off to also which give it to the headphones21:25
zapdoesn't it just use playbin?21:25
thopiekarbut dsp is the last before the hardware..21:25
johnxthopiekar, the dsp can do *anything you want*21:25
johnxif you tell the dsp "encode this sound and give it back to me"21:26
johnxthat's what it will do21:26
johnxzap, maybe? or maybe playbin2? I have no idea21:26
zapwell playbin will autodetect anything including the sink21:26
zapso if you remove the mp3dsp sink, you can put any other sink in place ;)21:26
johnxzap, compile a custom gstreamer module/sink?21:27
zapby the way, Nokia mplayer is closed source? It works horribly with non-latin tags21:27
GeneralAntillesNokia doesn't have an mplayer. . . .21:27
zapjohnx: yes, that's my first priority as soon as I get a bit of free time21:27
johnxzap, their media player is largely closed source21:27
zapGeneralAntilles: I mean the builtin media player21:27
GeneralAntilles"Media player"21:28
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thopiekaraahh i've got an other question, too...21:28
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zapwell currently I'm interested in the part that reads the tags :)21:28
johnxzap, well some of its libraries are probably open21:28
thopiekarhow can i set up eth0 on my it21:28
johnxthopiekar, it doesn't have an ethernet port21:28
thopiekarthe asix.ko driver for my usb.adapter-to-lan works21:29
johnxthopiekar, the wireless device is called wlan0 and you can do networking over usb021:29
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thopiekar* thanks qwerty^^21:29
johnxthopiekar, ah ok. then you can set it up with ifconfig as root21:29
qwerty12_N800grab usblan and replace one of the included modules with the asix.ko :)21:29
johnxifconfig eth0
thopiekarim using dhcp21:29
johnxthopiekar, udhcpc -i eth021:29
thopiekarwhen i use usblan my it crashs21:30
thopiekarthen it crashs21:30
johnxcan't help you there21:30
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qwerty12_N800Also to answer question from last time, there is no usbnet.ko, it's included in the kernel.21:30
thopiekaris then some thing bad with the driver21:30
qwerty12_N800thopiekar, i'll try repackiing usblan21:30
qwerty12_N800tommorow :/21:30
johnxthopiekar, maybe or it could be a power issue or it could be another bug21:30
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thopiekarit is...21:31
thopiekari had to plug in a powered hub21:31
johnxthopiekar, does it immediately turn off? does the blue light flash? does the screen slowly fade?21:31
thopiekarhmm mom21:32
zaphmm, what is the 'line' input in the mixer? does n810 have line-in ?21:32
thopiekarno but maybe on the mainchip..^^21:32
johnxzap, well it has a mic built-in and it can accept sound in through a wired headset21:33
johnxI haven't play around with those volume sliders while using either though21:33
zapOMG, the 'line' input affects actual sound output volume (touchscreen click volume for example)21:34
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zapI don't understand what 'line' means here then21:34
johnxah line is obviously Nokian for "labeled incorrectly"21:35
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zapsomebody should port alsamixer21:35
zapthis aumix looks a bit limited21:36
zapPCM affects volume and Line affects volume21:36
zapPCM much stronger21:36
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johnxyou could probably unpack the debian armel .deb of alsamixer and just copy the binary and run it21:37
johnxI wouldn't install the deb though21:37
zapI tried that a couple of times, it doesn't work - wrong libc and so on21:37
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zapseems that bluetooth works at ALSA level too21:38
qwerty12_N800someone should  make some metapackages with symlinks for the debian pkgs...21:38
zapor better, recompile everything needed for n810 :)21:38
zapfor *maemo21:38
johnxor better, just get debian running21:38
johnxc'mon can't be that hard21:39
zapwith closed source drivers it is21:39
johnxit's over here:
qwerty12_N800I do :). But i prefer maemo. I'm gonna look into qole's chroot stuff.21:39
qwerty12_N800use debian that is21:39
zapwell, debian is not exactly a table os21:40
zapI prefer specialized things like maemo21:40
johnxnot exactly...but the current tablet OS is just a stripped down, old version of debian21:40
zapbecause a full-blown linux is too heavy for such hardware21:41
johnxzap, it's really not21:41
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zapyep, what I like is that it's stripped :)21:41
johnxthe GUI is the most important thing to have "optimized" I think21:41
GeneralAntillesIt is when you factor in 256MB of flash. :P21:41
johnxfair enough21:42
zapX11 for omap is opensource?21:42
johnxzap, yup21:42
johnxand has some neat patches too :)21:42
zapaha, so you can take nokia's kernel and nokia's dsp stuff21:42
zapand the rest should be easy to recompile :)21:42
johnxno need to recompile21:42
johnxDebian has an armel distro with 10,000+ packages21:42
* qwerty12_N800 just realised xomap = x omap after zap saying that. stupid me.21:42
GeneralAntillesgj, qwerty12_N800.21:43
qwerty12_N800Thanks :p21:43
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zapjohnx: but you can't live without maemo, microb, all thouse neat games etc, aren't you? :)21:43
qwerty12_N800I do prefer microb over webkit imo21:44
johnxzap, epiphany webkit is a lot faster than microb for some things21:44
johnxslower for others21:44
zapa full-blown browser is slow21:45
zapI've seen firefox on zaurus sl310021:45
zapit's a horror21:45
johnxit's funny you should mention firefox21:45
johnxwhat do you think microb is?21:45
zapI know that21:45
zapI mean the full-blown firefox, not microb21:45
zapand not minimo21:46
johnxgah...minimo is almost worse21:46
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johnxbut really epiphany webkit is actually faster than microb in many situations21:46
zapalmost worse than what?21:46
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johnxminimo is almost worse than full firefox321:46
zapjohnx: you mean epiphany on PC or on ARM?21:46
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johnxon my very own n80021:46
zaphow you run it?21:47
johnxin Debian21:47
GeneralAntillesSomebody needs to slap a decent GUI on webkit.21:47
zapwith chroot?21:47
johnxzap, no21:47
johnxread the wiki I linked earlier21:47
* qwerty12_N800 remembers seeing old minimo os2007 versions21:47
* GeneralAntilles shudders.21:47
johnxwell...kinda chroot in a way...but it's more of a pivot_root, then run debian's init21:48
GeneralAntillesI still think people were lying when they said they used that steaming pile of garbage.21:48
zapand how far it goes?21:48
johnxit boots, runs, is nice to use21:48
johnxI have XFCE running21:48
GeneralAntillesIt was so awesome, you screw up one little thing and you have to restart it to get input working again. <_<21:48
zapjohnx: what doesn't work?21:48
johnxpower saving needs some love...21:48
* qwerty12_N800 <3's power saving21:49
zapyep, there's no mce and systemui21:49
johnxGeneralAntilles, hey now... I didn't see a bug or a patch...21:49
GeneralAntillesTo minimo?21:49
johnxGeneralAntilles, aaah...minimo. I thought you meant debian21:49
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GeneralAntillesI wouldn't know where to start. :P21:49
GeneralAntillesBut since you brought it up, debian sux uhlot n so doez johnz21:49
johnxtoo tired to come up with something clever21:50
qwerty12_N8001 - 0 GeneralAntilles21:51
GeneralAntillesI figure Debian is worth at least 100 points. :P21:51
GeneralAntillesSo, more like: 1 - 100 johnx21:51
johnxthanks :D21:51
johnxzap, the biggest problem I'm running into is figuring out how to turn on wifi power saving reliably21:51
GeneralAntilles'course, we gotta take points away from johnx for sucking21:51
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GeneralAntillesso, 1 - -1 GeneralAntilles21:52
zapjohnx: does dsp work?21:52
johnxyes...I borrowed Nokia's libs, etc21:52
qwerty12_N800evil muhahaha21:52
zapbut to be honest, I don't see any reason to use Debian21:52
johnxqwerty12_N800, says the hax0r del diablo himself :P21:52
zapI'd better concentrate on making Maemo a better place to live :)21:52
johnxzap, ask the 770 users how well that worked for them21:53
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qwerty12_N800johnx, I still assert I didn't hack! :p21:53
zapjohnx: I see what you're meaning, but you'll be anyway stuck to Nokia kernel21:53
johnxzap, though to be honest I don't see why we can't have both.21:53
zapand this is the most important closed piece of code (the wifi stuff etc)21:53
zapjohnx: because having both will mean less polished every of them21:54
GeneralAntillesI hoping the 770 community support that's been talked about so much recently actually gets some traction from Nokia.21:54
* qwerty12_N800 is trying to make my version number say 666 to reflect diablo :p21:54
johnxzap, time I spend in Debian isn't coming out of some kind of "maemo hacking" time fund21:54
zapjohnx: perhaps for you, not so sure about others21:55
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johnxzap, and what I was about to say is that the hildon libs are present in debian *as well* and some of my motivation for debian on the tablet is to get hildon to a wider audience, such as zaurus users21:55
GeneralAntillesI'm still waiting for a Hildon/Matchbox that's actually usable in Debian.21:55
zapjohnx: isn't making maemo available on zaurus a better thing?21:56
GeneralAntillesThe virtual keyboard input is the big tripping up point for me.21:56
zapor perhaps porting it to Angstrom21:56
johnxzap, maemo isn't all open source.21:56
GeneralAntilleszap, the important parts of maemo are in Debian21:56
GeneralAntillesSo that doesn't really make sense.21:56
zapAngstrom, Debian, ITOS... too much OSes for such a small audience21:56
johnxzap, yes. hildon (the core GUI libs for maemo) on zaurus is my goal21:56
GeneralAntillesFragmentation is a big issue in the mobile space21:57
GeneralAntillesbut maemo isn't something that'll solve that.21:57
zapeveryone's going to do His Own Ultimate OS21:57
johnxzap, I thought about that too. I saw how fractured the zaurus community got...but I think that anyone who's really interested in debian probably wasn't going to be spending lots of time on maemo to begine with21:57
zap(and hist grandmother, too)21:57
GeneralAntillesDebian + Matchbox/Hildon MIGHT be. ;)21:57
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GeneralAntillesHowdy, konttori.21:58
johnxan app that uses hildon for GUI stuff will work on Debian/N8x0 *and* maemo with very minor packaging tweaks21:58
zapwith Maemo you have a team of full-time paid Nokia devs behind it21:59
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johnxfor another year21:59
zapwith Debian you'll have a bunch of entusiasts, which will quit randomly21:59
keesjwith maemo you do have end-user portable quality21:59
johnxzap, anyways, this isn't an either or situation21:59
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zapIt's just my thoughts22:00
johnxfair enough22:00
johnxpeople may stop developing debian but the source is out there for someone to pick it up if they care. Nokia *will* drop the OS dev for the's only a matter of when, and most of the source isn't out there22:00
zapI agree, but with Debian you have the same problem22:01
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zapwhen Nokia drops n810 support, you'll be stuck with kernel 2.6.2122:01
johnxzap, some of the same problem22:01
zapor whatever will be the last22:01
zapabsolutely same problem22:01
khertanjohnx: mcalendar is now available on extras-devel22:01
khertanX-Fade: thx for the validation22:02
zapno new kernel, no new dsp, no new mplayer22:02
johnxzap, there's more closed source in maemo than just hardware support, I hope you realize22:02
GeneralAntillesLots of the user-space stuff is closed.22:02
johnxzap, why no new mplayer?22:02
zapalas I don't know the full picture here22:02
qwerty12_N800"MPlayer 1.0rc1-maemo.26.n8x0 (C) 2000-2006 MPlayer Team CPU: ARM Internet Tablet OS version: 666"22:02
zapjohnx: I mean mediaplayer, not mplayer22:02
GeneralAntilles"Media player"22:02
johnxzap, I don't even use it on OS2008 :)22:02
zapwhat do you use?22:03
GeneralAntillesThere really isn't much point22:03
johnxI use mpd on debian and canola on os200822:03
GeneralAntillesalthough the UPnP support is nice22:03
zapI'd use MediaBox but it has many bugs yet22:03
GeneralAntillesand stupid fast in Diablo.22:03
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zapwell media player is end-user friendly, my wife can use it without much thought :)22:03
qwerty12_N800I'd better change the 666 before el diablo finds me.22:04
GeneralAntillesTry Canola?22:04
johnxkhertan, thanks...I'll look at it22:04
zapGeneralAntilles: I'll try but it looks heave22:04
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konttorizap: canola is nice.22:05
khertanjohnx: send me a mail if you have any remakrs22:05
johnxkhertan, will do22:05
konttoriAnyway, if nokia would stop supporting maemo, as someone said, the only thing not updateable really is the driver stack and it's good that no-one but really professionals are messing with radio related components anyway.22:06
konttoriAll of the rest can be easily patched upgraded and so on (well, the closed source applications would need to be replaced with opensource counterparts)22:06
johnxkonttori, the driver stack, the browser ui, media player, image viewer I think, backlight statusbar applet,22:07
zapjust tried canola, same partial problem with non-latin symbols in tags :(22:07
konttoriYeah, so it would be a little bit of work22:07
johnxrandom stuff like the control panel22:07
qwerty12_N800the browser ui  being closed always makes me laugh.22:07
konttorijohnx: and so? It's not like it would disappear22:07
johnxwell of course not22:08
konttoriYou only would need to make the parts that would need to be replaced.22:08
GeneralAntillesSpeaking of which, any answers on the wiki questions yet?22:08's just a matter of how you replace them22:08
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johnxdo you take the parts that *are* open source and move on? or do you try and graft on open source bits to the current OS?22:09
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johnxit's something users will have to consider *eventually* but for now I'd like to keep my options open...and also poking around with debian on the n800 is partially just for my own entertainment22:10
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zapsure, fun is the main thing in open source :)22:11
johnxglad we agree on something. :)22:11
zapI'm not really opposing you :)22:11
ricko73I had a good experience with the gps this weekend22:11
johnxzap, and I do think hildon is the way to go (even if it's not perfect)22:12
ricko73I don't know if I'm lucky or should be considered lucky, but it worked quite well with Roadmap22:12
johnxricko73, that's good news22:12
ricko73it took about 7 minutes to get an initial fix22:12
johnxI'll have to try roadmap out22:12
ricko73I then went into a store, turned off the gps.22:12
ricko73Returned to the car and turned it on.  The gps fix was re-acquired within 30 seconds22:12
zapjohnx: hildon is really the best UI for small pda-like devices I've ever seen...22:13
ricko73seemed to track well too22:13
Veggenjohn: agreed, the advantage with hildon is that it's close enough to gtk (and will get closer?) that it makes it easier to port applications...22:13
Veggen(ref the discussion about replacing the UI with something like canola)22:14
johnxthat would be a lot of work from the ground up O_o22:14
GeneralAntillesThoughtfix has been really disappointing lately.22:14
johnxbut yeah, hildon on zaurus is my next step22:14
GeneralAntillesThe whole "let's throw everything we've done out and make something new that totally sucks" line is tiresome.22:15
johnxI'd really like to see zaurus users get in on using and developing hildon apps22:15
zapjohnx: as part of Angstrom?22:15
johnxzap, some of the base libs are in angstrom already22:15
johnxinitially I'll probably work in zaurus/debian just because it's easier for me to build natively22:15
zapdoh :)22:16
johnxhey, I like and *use* angstrom...but it's easier for me to figure things out on a native system first22:16
zapdon't you fear you'll lose too much time on fighting with debian?22:17
johnxfighting where?22:17
zapmaking it to work where it doesn't22:17
zapor doesn't too well22:17
johnxwell, for my purposes it's already *there* on zaurus and n80022:18
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zapdoes Canola have a bugtracker? I like it really, but I'd fill a bug report :)22:18
johnxbut also, look at the canola forum on itt22:19
GeneralAntillesBugging them directly in #canola is fun, too. :P22:19
keesjGeneralAntilles: I do value hildon for what is has achieved. for some reason I dislike (A)many things that evolve around gnome. It might be an atidute thing. whas come close to describing yhr frrling is "you all treat me like a (l)user"22:21
zapOMG Canola is Python!!!22:23
keesjI just realiszed it about a few hours ago22:23
keesjCanola rulez!!22:23
johnxGUI complexity and options are a fine line to tread...22:23
* qwerty12_N800 hates python22:23
johnxqwerty12_N800, ?! why?22:23
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800 is a h8ter.22:23
zappython is cool, you can fix bugs directly without needing to set up a dev env :)22:23
qwerty12_N800Prefer the speed of "native" apps22:23
keesjlike I would never write a tool that states this as goal
qwerty12_N800plus I cannot figure out how to pkg them :p22:24
zapqwerty12_N800: it's like using hammers and nails forever, and hating drills and such22:24
elbI hope NM says its goal is sucking22:24
elbotherwise it fails hard22:24
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elboh, I totally agree with all those design principles22:24
keesjSimplicity,Visual Clarity and Automation. it does not fail at that22:25
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johnxkeesj, eh. if I need more complexity I'll dig into /etc/network/interfaces22:25
johnxbut there are a lot of cases where I'm perfectly happy to let network manager do it's thing22:25
* qwerty12_N800 h8's networkmanager too. I leave it disabled.22:26
johnxI guess that makes me a luser22:26
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zapohoh, just a bunch of .pyo files :) no py source22:27
keesjjohnx: I do use it (specialy for vpn)22:27
johnxand you like it, or dislike it?22:28
Saviqhi all, anyone here using mobile mythtv?22:28
GeneralAntilleszap, Canola isn't open.22:29
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zapwhat a surprise :)22:29
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SaviqI like nm quite a lot, and 0.7 does gsm, too :)22:29
GeneralAntillesMeh, the INdT guys contribute a stupid amount of stuff to open source.22:30
GeneralAntillesPython is on maemo because of them.22:30
etrunkois the extras repo infinitely slow?22:30
etrunkoor is it just me?22:30
johnxetrunko, only for you. :P (but honestly yes, it has problems sometimes.)22:30
zapGeneralAntilles: this is good or bad?22:30
* qwerty12_N800 tries btterror on maemo...22:30
GeneralAntillesContributing to open source? I'd say it's a good thing.22:31
zapI just can't imagine what is a 'stupid amount'22:31
johnxah, "American internet slang"22:31
johnxstupid = mind blowingly huge22:32 this case22:32
qwerty12_N800have some ldn ones :p22:32
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johnxCanola is interesting because the part that's closed source is actually probably the part that has the least amount of interesting, reusable code, from what I can tell22:35
GeneralAntillesYeah, it's just the front-end, basically.22:36
GeneralAntilleslms, efl, etc, etc22:36
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RST38hqwerty: Here?22:38
qwerty12_N800Any "sis" unpackers exist for the tablet? Don't really feel like booting into windows...22:38
qwerty12_N800RST38h, yes :)22:39
RST38hqwerty: I have found the cause of 100+MB VSZ reading22:39
qwerty12_N800Great! :)22:39
RST38hqwerty: Not really22:39
RST38hIf you are eating, stop22:39
qwerty12_N800Not eating :p22:40
RST38hIt is Maemo File-Open dialog.22:41
RST38hYou can run pretty much ANY program using it, run "top" in a separate ssh22:41
RST38hThe invoke that fucking dialog and see program's VSZ grow. You don't need to actually open a file, just click Cancel - the dialog will disappear but the VSZ will stay above 100MB22:42
johnxwow...yet more reasons to hate it22:42
RST38hWhoever feels like filing a bug with Nokia, please do it22:42
qwerty12_N800wtf. you should steal fbreader open dialog22:42
RST38hI can't make myself do it, sorry22:43
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RST38hI have my own old-skool open dialog, but want to stay within style guidelines for Maemo22:43
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qwerty12_N800The guy who made fbreader open dialog did brilliant job, never seen a faster one on my n800.22:43
RST38hUnfortunately, this misfeature does not explain the iNES slowdown problem22:44
GeneralAntillesYou found the bug, you get the honor of filing it. ;)22:44
johnxanyways, good talking to you all, but I need to catch some sleep. 'night22:44
RST38hGeneral: it is 23:45, I had a day of work + commute22:45
GeneralAntillesSave it for the morning, then. :P22:45
RST38hThe maximum I can do is bitch about it on ITT22:45
qwerty12_N800RST38h, In Russia? :)22:45
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* qwerty12_N800 pǝɹoq sı22:47
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RST38hzap: I am. Sorry, can't send private messages.22:50
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RST38hqwerty: I can't read what you have just written - it's probably Unicode and IRCII does not support it22:50
qwerty12_N800hehe, its flipped text saying i'm bored :)22:51
qwerty12_N800btw, xchat ftw ;)22:51
RST38hit's an ssh session to a box in Connecticut22:52
RST38hrunning xchat over it would be a bit too fat22:53
derfThat's what irssi is for.22:53
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* RST38h has used ircii for ages, no way he is switching to a different client now22:53
qwerty12_N800Ah. I should install bitchx, ircii and weechat for fun again :p22:54
RST38hbitchx - definitely sucks22:54
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RST38hirssi - may be good, do not know22:54
RST38hxchat - nice X client22:54
GeneralAntillesirssi is the best console client ever.22:54
* RST38h hasn't tried22:55
glassirssi rocks22:55
GeneralAntillesYou're missing out.22:55
glassit's like ircii or bitchx with a good script..without having to mess with scripts22:55
RST38hwe do have it on the system, somebody uses it...a moment22:55
qwerty12_N800ircii is that fugly one afaik. before, i was misreading ircii with irssi22:55
* GeneralAntilles <3's irssi-proxy.22:55
GeneralAntilles3 NITs, one nick.22:56
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qwerty12_N800OmG, RST38h was cloned!22:56
RST38bis /names command kinda sucks here22:56
qwerty12_N800which client?22:57
RST38bisdoes not show a nice condensed list like ircii22:57
RST38bisoh well22:57
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qwerty12_N800irssi is da shit!22:58
RST38hlooks bitchxy22:58
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RST38hnot as "eleet" as bitchx though :)22:58
glassirssi has themes22:59
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qwerty12_N800weechat is probably the only prog i've seen that sets osso-xterms's title23:00
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zapqwerty12_N800: mc does it too23:05
zapbut both versions I've seen are hell buggy23:05
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RST38h"By today's standards, all of the Convicts sent to Australia had only committed trivial crimes. The serious crimes, such as rape, murder, or impersonating an Egyptian, were punished with the death penality."23:40
RST38hqwerty: Have you impersonated an Egyptian lately?23:40
qwerty12_N800No :p23:41
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Stskeepswalk like an egyptian ;)23:41
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qwerty12_N800That's that  dodgy bangles song :p23:42
johnxthere was a good punk cover of it though23:43
johnxI forgot who did it at the moment23:43
GeneralAntillesGo to bed.23:43
NaviYour sleep habits must be fux'd up, johnx23:43
johnxcomes from working the night shift :/23:44
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johnxplus I decided to work on my website...I can still get plenty of sleep before work tonight23:44
qwerty12_N800I need to be getting me some sleep. 9:45 but i know I wont. This channel keeps me awake :p23:45
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* Navi knocks qwerty12_N800 with a mallet23:46
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halleyI've come across an SDL_ttf problem in pygame on OS2008, and it seems to match this I found on Google:
halleyIt looks like the appropriate solution that people found was to go up to a later freetype2 build, but it appears I've got the latest known for OS2008.23:57
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kpelhi all23:58
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