IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2008-04-16

ssvbKotCzarny: maybe, I estimate that it should be possible to do AAC decoding with 70MHz of ARM frequency00:00
Navigomiam, those processers also tend to be newer and more energy efficient.00:00
KotCzarnygomiam: are you sure? pentium-m requires more volts at higher clocks00:00
lcukas the clock gets higher the voltage spikes spread out, you need to bump up the v's to ensure signal clarity00:00
ssvbgomiam: they are just forced to use lower voltage, otherwise power consumption would be too high00:00
lcukit would be great if you could lower the voltage (and hence power consumption) and end up with a higher clock00:01
lcukbut those things normally only come from a die shrink00:02
pH5afaik core voltage is varied between 1.375V @ 400MHz and 1.225 @ 165MHz mpu00:02
infobotpH5 meant: afaiu core voltage is varied between 1.375V @ 400MHz and 1.225 @ 165MHz mpu00:02
lcukkot, does all this talk of dsp matters mean you are delving into it on here and will become jedi dsp coder?00:04
gomiamKotCzarny: reading the Wikipedia one would conclude that voltage will get lower with each new processor (among other things, because having more integration allows faster signal propagation). The Pentium family, for example, has evolved from 5 volts to less than one volt in some Pentium-M implementations.00:04
KotCzarnyph5: is there a way to control that voltage?00:04
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KotCzarnygomiam: yes, "new generation"00:04
KotCzarnygomiam: so technology is different and you can't compare it00:04
pH5ssvb: I figure the ARM running at full for those 70MHz takes more power than the DSP doing the same task and the ARM idling00:05
KotCzarnylcuk: nope, i'm just a hacker, and for dsp i would need to know assembler :)00:05
pH5otherwise the dsp indeed wouldn't be all that useful00:05
gomiamKotCzarny: so the technology isn't necessarilly different (there are two voltage ratings for Pentium-M for example) and you can compare.00:05
lcukgomiam, new generation normally == die shrink, the original pentium used large scale transistors, every new generation has been smaller and smaller transistors which require less vs to trigger the gates00:05
gomiamlcuk: and that doesn't detract from my point00:05
ssvbbtw, does anybody have a sample of video encoded with nokia video convertor? I have never seen such a file yet :)00:05
gomiamlcuk: if anything, it explains it.00:05
lcukit does because we are discussing changing the speed of the cpu inside our n8x000:06
lcukwhich unless i am mistaken cannot be removed and changed00:06
KotCzarnygomiam: my point was that on the same processor, if you scale clock rate you have to supply enough volts00:06
KotCzarnygomiam: and it's more volts when more mhz is requested00:06
lcukssvb, i normally use it only for large files, just get it yourself and convert one or two00:07
pH5KotCzarny: the dvfs code has a hard-wired table of operating points. I guess those voltage/frequency combinations are approved by TI.00:07
KotCzarnyssvb: how about adding mencoder build? simple switch and adding one or two variables missing from the mplayer.c to mencoder.c00:07
ssvblcuk: isn't it a windows only application?00:07
gomiamKotCzarny: not necessarilly. That only happens when you get out of the stable clock range of the processor. On other matters, it seems there is a project for core voltage control on Linux00:07
KotCzarnyph5: do you know if someone tried to play with them?00:07
KotCzarnygomiam: i undervolt my cpu00:07
lcukssvb, ahhh you have no windows.00:08
gomiamKotCzarny: good for you :-)00:08
KotCzarnygomiam: i hate spinning fan in my laptop, and it's the only way :)00:08
lcukyou could add a heatpipe and a big cooler flower :)00:08
KotCzarnythere is a risk, but so far no corruption/crashes00:09
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KotCzarnylcuk: it's a ultraportable series, read: no space :)00:09
pH5KotCzarny: nope, no idea.00:09
gomiamKotCzarny: true, true. Don't tell me about it: my laptop's fan exahust is on the right side, just where I usually put the mouse. Than hand never gets cold XD00:09
lcuki could never run my 1.4ghz thunderbird at fullspeed00:09
KotCzarnythunderbird, the hungry cpu00:09
KotCzarny(not as p4, but still)00:10
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lcukhungry? the lights dimmed when i started playing games, and because of the fan noise i had no need for a sound card00:10
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* pH5 has a p4m laptop, cpu fans are consumables on this thing00:10
lcukp4 is better in unoptimum cooling conditions though00:10
KotCzarnylcuk: how good is the freq response? ;)00:10
KotCzarnylcuk: my girls p4 never goes lower than 60-70C00:11
lcukyou should really plug the fan back in on hers00:11
KotCzarnyit's on00:11
KotCzarnybut still not enough00:11
lcukthen something is wrong00:12
KotCzarnyand i don't like p4 so i wait till it dies00:12
KotCzarnypentium-m is soo much more efficient00:12
lcuki dont think ive ever seen a pentium actually die00:12
KotCzarnylcuk: i hope for thunderstorms00:12
lcukive blown most cpus and motherboards in my time00:12
lcukjust get her an m anyway00:13
lcuktell her to install it herself00:13
KotCzarnyi got her an x41-tablet00:13
lcukcould you get me one as well ;)00:13
KotCzarnyit's hdd is slow00:14
KotCzarnybut fan is surprisingly quiet00:14
KotCzarnyand ide-sata bridge is a bummer.00:16
unixSnobanyone here make international calls from a grandcentral phonebook?00:17
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lcukhi tama00:20
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lcukunixSnob, nope, never tried00:20
Tama^2Hi lcuk00:20
lcukhows tricks00:20
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Mouseyanybody got a lead on a stable cron daemon?00:27
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NeoStrider_hey folks00:28
flo_laphi NeoStrider_00:29
NeoStrider_whats up?00:29
lcukMousey, didnt think it was available00:29
JaffaHme yawns00:29
* Mousey cries00:30
JaffaMousey: there was a release of one based on alarmd on maemo-* recently00:30
Mouseyyah, found a thread00:30
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KotCzarnywhat's the problem with cron?00:31
KotCzarnyie. i can't imagine why it could be unstable00:31
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JaffaWell, it's a reimplementation of the external interface00:32
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JaffaBut it's fairly simple stuff00:34
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gomiammmm ... is anybody else having problems accessing Slashdot?00:37
NeoStrider_lemme try00:38 seems to work, but the rest of the system seems to be 503'ed00:38
NeoStrider_cmdr taco must have be sleeping00:38
gomiamah, it might be that XD00:39
NeoStrider_their bewoulf cluster of 770s must be out of batteries =-P00:39
mgedminmaybe they're upgrading to n800's00:39
gomiammgedmin: nah, they are buying WiMax N810's in bulk. They have much better connection speeds, you know ;-)00:40
NeoStrider_so they're still setting sbox00:40
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gomiamby the way, wasn't WiMax the standard with different standards for mobile and stationary products?00:41
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NeoStrider_(I dont know...maemo still uses sbox? Im so It2006 ...)00:41
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KotCzarnysbox is nice00:41
NeoStrider_yes...I kind of like it00:41
KotCzarnylet's one try misc libs00:41
NeoStrider_I cant see why ppl hate it?00:41
gomiamNeoStrider_: it's a conspiracy, I tell you :-D00:41
KotCzarnybecause people will always hate something that doesn't work on the first try00:41
gomiamoh, neither do I. That might explain some things :-P00:42
NeoStrider_sbox doesnt work on the first 54935 tries00:42
NeoStrider_but eventually you get the hattrick to make it work00:42
mgedminsbox is a bit baroque00:42
mgedminand a bit heavy (2 gigs!)00:43
JaffaWhy have a whole 'nother OS which duplicates a load of stuff you've already got; is bloated and (was) a PITA to install. Can't use existing favourite editors and IDEs easily and raisxes the barrier to entry.00:43
lcukgomiam, you broke slashdot00:43
gomiamlcuk: mwahahah (lifts pinky to mouth)00:43
JaffaHow about that for reasons people have tended to dislike sbox?00:43
NeoStrider_Jaffa: I can easily use IDEs with my SBOX 0.9800:43
Jaffasbox2 looks interesting, if it gains more traction00:44
NeoStrider_Its just a matter of knowing where to look for things00:44
JaffaAlways a plus point for making it easy to develop things...00:44
NeoStrider_it was easier to settup then in my S60 experiences hehe00:44
lcuki would like to go out and purchase a device and have the devkit installable on win/linux/mac and be ready to go00:45
NeoStrider_I want to port webkit to my ezx device00:45
JaffaBesides, it's relatively recently that that stuff's improved, and ppl have long memories over bad tooling (IME)00:45
lcukNeoStrider_, hate to say it, but it was for pocket pc as well - BUT - the problem there is you were limited to one single way to do it00:45
NeoStrider_thats gonna be fun00:45
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KotCzarnylcuk: vmware image00:46
mgedminI want a virtual machine with full 770/n8x0 hardware emulation00:46
KotCzarnywill work on the choices you have :)00:46
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mgedminhow are you going to test your newly-ported package works on various versions of stock OS images?00:46
mgedminnot by buying 5 devices and reflashing every time00:46
lcuki have it, but the ide is awful and using a hand crafted toolkit gets things working but still requires an awful lot of knowledge.  imagine if you needed to install an alien operating system and learn how to use it before you could develop on xdevice00:47
JaffaKotCzarny: Again recent. Even more bloat (tho' low barrier to entry - unless you're on a Mac). Not well advertised as the best approach.00:47
KotCzarnyjaffa: huh?00:47
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JaffaThe VMware image.00:47
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* Jaffa is on his N810, so typing's more painful than a proper computer ;-)00:48
KotCzarnybut what was the question?00:48
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KotCzarnybtw. anyone had experiences with speech-to-text input mode?00:48
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JaffaYou said that the VMware image was the/an answer00:49
lcukjaffa, vmware isnt low barrier - eclipse default ide is awful and there isnt really anything else ready and integrated without having enough linux confidence to walk around the console00:49
KotCzarnymcedit ftw!00:49
KotCzarnyand thorough knowledge of the code00:49
* lcuk hits kot on the head with a midnight commander00:49
* KotCzarny embraces mc whole heartily00:50
Jaffalcuk: fair enuf. Not tried it and I like Eclipse for Java stuff, but it's been years since I tried the CDT00:50
NeoStrider_sorry, I was absent00:50
JaffaC Development Toolkit00:50
NeoStrider_lcuk: I hate to admit it, but the pocket pc development infrastructure is the best ever00:50
JaffaEclipse plugins. Not Craft, Design and Technology ;-)00:51
lcukeclipse is slow enough and bloated enough and has more than enough buttons that i go blind.00:51
JaffaiPhone SDK tooling looked impressive. Especially the debugging and performance analysis00:51
KotCzarnyCanadian Deaf Theatre00:51
lcukNeoStrider_, from a core development perspective it was nice.  but because they push .net compact as default the actual end result was dire00:51
JaffaIt's the modern emacs: very cool once you get taught it00:52
lcuki would have kept a pocket pc if i am honest if i could have knocked on the hardware a bit more00:52
lcukit was like only being able to code in python00:52
NeoStrider_lcuk: I never tried compact .net I mean by the fact the its f... easy to debug it on device00:52
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lcuki never use the debugging00:52
NeoStrider_well, we have to test it on the device at least once ;-)00:53
lcukit was the code and run that got me - i have that now with a script which is better for me and fits my dev style00:53
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lcuki save my changes press up arrow/enter and my code is running on device00:53
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lcukif i ctrl c from big keyboard my program stops on the device00:53
lcuki never get caught with loops etc00:53
NeoStrider_thats what I love about ppc00:53
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lcukbut that was technically the same as .net compact00:54
lcukvisul studio i mean00:54
NeoStrider_now, compare it with my N-Gage development experience...debugging "device-only" bugs was pure hell00:54
KotCzarnyneostrider: there's a python for s6000:54
lcukdebugging? isnt that just usign the console00:54
KotCzarnywith bt console i think00:54
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NeoStrider_I love native things ;-)00:54
Jaffalcuk: nice. shared that script? (Presumably it's an scp & ssh?)00:54
lcukcopious amounts of logging allow any problem to be solved easily00:55
lcuksure jaffa, 2 seconds00:55
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* Jaffa should sleep: marketing presentation tomorrow. First time I've been client facing for, oooh, 9 months?00:56
KevinVermalooks i have an issue with modest not connecting  gmail imap due to cert diff.00:57
* NeoStrider_ gotta learn mkezx. BZK runs on Maemo (x) EeePC(x) EZX(?). leaving fellows!00:57
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KevinVermasomeone else faced same ?00:57
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KevinVermamaemo default email app and claws-mail just works00:58
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JaffaKevinVerma: rings a bell. Checked ITT?00:59
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KevinVermajaffa, not yet00:59
lcukjaffa :    i just keep one of these per app i am developing, but you could alter to allow a few parameters00:59
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lcukquick, simple and dirty00:59
lcukbut gets tthe job done01:00
KevinVermadoes ITT has a mailing list gateway ?01:00
* Jaffa starts modest: working for me against Gmail IMAP01:00
KevinVermai did tried reinstall and also rm rf .modest01:01
* lcuk hopes he will NEVER have to use the console to delete things01:01
KevinVermatried to run modest from term but got segfault01:01
Jaffalcuk: nice script01:02
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lcukit does the job for me01:02
JaffaAnyway, sleep time01:02
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KotCzarnylcuk: why not? it's very easy and convenient01:04
KotCzarny(assuming you have shell with working name completion)01:04
KotCzarnyor just install mc01:04
lcukwhy not what?01:04
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KotCzarnyshell for removing01:05
lcukoh the params thing01:05
lcukahhh, ive heard too many horror stories, i like to see what i am doing01:05
lcuki want to delete that, and that, and that and that and that01:05
KotCzarnyit's like c :)01:06
lcuki have coded up things in the past, but the console is just too... instant01:06
lcukin c i can read the entire thing first01:06
lcukin the console one press of enter and its gone01:06
KotCzarnythen always use rm with confirmation switch01:06
KotCzarnyrm -i01:06
KotCzarnyyou can even make an alias01:07
lcukbut i am forgetful of options, you've seen my code - i keep variations around (even in this script here ^)01:07
KotCzarnyto make it default in your shell01:07
KevinVermanot so scared of rm rf , been there done that01:07
lcukno because then when i get onto someone elses shell i will think its there and fuck up01:07
KevinVermano issue for me01:07
lcuki am starting to learn that using the default tools is always best :)  stick to what you KNOW is available inside a box and you cannot go wrong01:08
KotCzarnylcuk, for remote shells, use sshfs01:08
KotCzarnyand remove it using local shell01:08
lcukagain, requires additional installation01:08
KotCzarnyif it has sshd, most probably it has sftp enabled too01:08
KotCzarnyunless admin is a nazi01:09
lcukyes - what if i am at work or at someones house or need to do something quick from wherever01:09
lcuki am better being petrified of rm so that i become paranoid about using certain commands :)01:09
KotCzarnylcuk: then make an alias: alias rmi="rm -i"01:10
KotCzarnythen if it's not available you will know that you need it01:10
lcukyou've seen how many typos i make01:10
KevinVermaseriously it appears maemo team need out of the box tools now, think packagekit and policykit maybe ?01:10
KotCzarnylcuk, how about backups?01:10
lcukno convincing will make me feel comfortable about it :P01:10
KevinVermaseriously it appears maemo team need out of the box tools now, think packagekit and policykit maybe ?01:11
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KevinVermaoops double post01:11
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lcukKevinVerma, i would feel better having fully integrated dev available out of the box01:11
lcukie: base install with at least pygtkeditor and enough libraries01:12
lcukpackaging new things doesnt help without new things being made01:12
KotCzarnylcuk: bug vmwareimage people?01:12
lcukvmware isnt the issue, i mean on device itself01:12
lcukbut there are space constraints01:13
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Curs0rHey there, I have an n800 here and I'm trying to install xmame.install on it but it doesn't see the file on my network share01:23
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Curs0rshould I just change the extension or something?01:24
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pupnikhi Curs0r still there01:31
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Curs0rpupnik, I'm back01:44
pupniki am not sure but the .install only seems to work for me from a webserver that hosts the file and serves it with mimetype application executeable01:46
Curs0rIt occurred to me a few minutes ago that that might be the case01:46
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Curs0rNext question, I have an arseload of divx files but it keeps saying filetype not supported in mplayer01:47
KotCzarnycare to share a sample?01:47
KotCzarny1-2mb should be enough01:47
Curs0rI don't think I have anything under 350mb01:47
KotCzarnyuse dd01:48
KotCzarnydd <input.file >output.file bs=1M count=101:48
Curs0rAh, shoot, I'm on my windows box atm01:48
lcukdo it from your 80001:48
KotCzarnythen cut it on y..01:48
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Curs0rSadly it just walked out the door with my brother :(01:49
Curs0rWe'll have to pick that up in a bit01:49
KotCzarnythen it's hard to debug01:49
lcukinfact, this is the problem ssvb is having isnt it01:49
lcukie no1 can supply example files to debug01:49
KotCzarnylcuk: i have never seen him saying that01:50
KotCzarnywas it on some list?01:50
lcuki thought he did earlier01:50
lcuk2 mins ill see01:50
lcukwhats the nokia convertor called properly01:50
* KotCzarny avoids nokia's m$ windows software01:51
KotCzarnybad memories from converter for a 551001:51
lcuk<ssvb>btw, does anybody have a sample of video encoded with nokia video convertor? I have never seen such a file yet :)01:51
KotCzarnyah, this one01:51
lcukthat was tonight during the mhz discussion with gomaim01:52
KotCzarnyi thought that you were thinking about something else01:52
KotCzarnybecause of 'files'01:52
lcuknope, was on about ssvb not getting examples..01:52
KotCzarnymy memory works on plural/singular key01:53
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lcukso you gonna having a problems when i doing thing like that?01:54
* lcuk remembers it and teases kot when hes least expecting it01:54
lcuk(either that or it will be a typo ;)01:55
KotCzarnybut then again my memory remembers when someone does things like that01:55
KotCzarnyand acts accordingly01:55
KotCzarnyso beware01:55
Curs0rso do all my preexisting files have to be run through nokia video convertor?01:56
lcukno, try them first - basically the device is limited to a certain bitrate at different resolutions01:56
KotCzarnyonly ones that are too much for poor cpu01:56
lcukso if you have crappy movies they will work01:57
lcukbut the best encodes won't run most likely01:57
Curs0rmost of my files are 720x480, 640x360, or 640xwhatever01:57
lcuki believe (some1 else can confirm) if you get pre-encoded ipod movies they should play01:57
KotCzarnytoo much for current config01:57
KotCzarnythough i was watching 720x448 @ 23fps01:58
lcukno its not, but the bit rate must be lowered to compensate ;)01:58
ssvbCurso0r: anyway, it would be interesting to have a look at one of such files which refuses to play01:58
KotCzarnywith some tricks01:58
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lcukhi ssvb, ears burning :P01:58
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ssvbwhat kind of error message does mplayer provide?01:58
KotCzarny'feeeed meeee'01:59
Curs0rI get "file type not supported"01:59
ssvb"filetype not supported" sounds more like the standard media player from the internet tablet01:59
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Curs0rOh, scheisse, you're right.01:59
KotCzarnyproblem solved01:59
Curs0rMplayer wouldn't read from my network02:00
KotCzarnycurs0r: not true02:00
Curs0rIt sees the files but won't play them, just does nothing02:00
KotCzarnymplayer happily runs via http02:00
Curs0rMy shares are smb02:00
lcukdoes mplayer need to fully index avi files like the windows codecs do?02:00
KotCzarnysmb too, but i never used it02:00
lcukie have to scan entire file before playing02:00
KotCzarnylcuk: nope, but without index you can't do seeking02:00
KotCzarnyat least it refuses to do so02:01
Curs0rit doesn't add the file to the mplayer playlist no matter how many times I try to open them from the smb share02:01
Curs0rIf whoever wrote that lcars theme is in here: kudos, that bad ass02:02
ssvbit is not a playlist, but just a result of search for files on your flash memory card(s)02:02
ssvbGUI that comes with mplayer is very simplistic02:02
Curs0rI was very happy that itsweb browser doesn't do anything unexpected while interfacing with xbmc02:03
Curs0rmakes a nice remote02:03
KotCzarnyok, games time, lurkmode=true;02:04
lcukLCARS won't be invented for another 37 years. but your message will be replayed for them after they manage it.02:04
Curs0r<Curs0r> If whoever wrote that lcars theme02:05
Curs0rNow if I can get compiz on it... hahaha dreaming, I know.02:05
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KotCzarnytoo slow02:06
KotCzarnyno 3d drivers :/02:06
KotCzarnybut xcommgr works02:06
Curs0rmaybe I can shoehorn the rgba murrine in there02:06
lcukat 0.000001fps02:07
KotCzarnylcuk: more like 10fps02:07
Curs0ralpha blending isn't _that_ taxing02:07
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Curs0ror do you mean xcompmgr?02:07
lcukalpha blending02:08
lcukinvolves at least 2 full runs across the data02:08
lcuktry it on the device sometime :)02:08
Curs0rhow does xmame run with the standards like dig-dug, frogger, etc?02:09
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lcuklower resolution i would assume..02:09
lcuk800*480 desktop sized effects are much more taxing than running a game02:09
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Curs0rwell all this other stuff is just gravy anyway. It's a pocket sized web browser and I likes it02:11
lcukdon't get me wrong, the device is amazing02:11
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KotCzarnyand it runs mplayer!02:11
lcukjust don't try to think of it as a desktop part with processing power to spare02:11
lcuk(at least unless you have a powervr driver in your pocket)02:11
Curs0rwas ist das?02:12
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lcukwe have 3d hardware but no way to run it02:12
lcukits locked up inside the cpu - the other n series nokias have ngage type gaming capabilities which use the hardware02:12
johnx(not that it will help with the tearing problem)02:12
lcukdepends on resolution john02:12
Curs0rOh, I was under the impression that this had ngage capapbility02:13
lcukget the pvr and iva running and product 640*480 YUV frames ;)02:13
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lcukor same with 800*48002:13
johnxanyways, off to work...02:14
johnx(though I'd rather stay and chat :) )02:14
KotCzarnyget your nokia02:14
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lcuki tohught you were lurking KotCzarny  :P02:15
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KotCzarnyi am02:16
* lcuk puts lol on a macro02:16
* lcuk gives KotCzarny a :) macro02:16
KotCzarnyi'm running and killing monsters in the meantime02:16
lcukdifferent machine or windowed?02:16
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KotCzarnycalling a macro is slower than typing it02:17
KotCzarnylcuk: dualheaded02:17
KotCzarnyxrandr --output VGA-0 --auto --right-of LVDS02:17
Curs0rssh seems to work pretty well, need I ask if an X session is possible?02:17
lcuki dunno, though x11vnc is available02:18
Curs0rack, the horror02:18
* lcuk knows nothing still about linux subsystems so doesnt know how bad that is02:18
Curs0rAlthough I hear that compiz can be made to work with vnc02:18
lcuki know it works and i can see my nokia from my desktop02:18
KotCzarnyi think tcp part of the x is disabled by default02:18
Curs0rI mean I want to start a remote x session on the device and control my pc02:19
lcukanyway, who needs remote x when we have noBounds ;)02:19
KotCzarnycurs0r: try it, may work02:19
KotCzarnylcuk: where? link to download?02:19
lcukdont you need to gainroot first02:19
KotCzarnylcuk, nope02:19
KotCzarnyexport DISPLAY=pc:002:20
KotCzarnyrun your x app02:20
KotCzarnywhere pc is a hostname or ip02:20
Curs0rMy big project next weekend is to try and rootkit the device. Curiosoty has broken so many of my toys...02:20
lcukdunno exact link, but all you have to do is send a mail to ermmmm him, get a job at nokia, work your way through the ranks, become an extra in a corporate video stand around holding an 810 and bobs your uncle (still easier than doing some linux related things ;) )02:20
Curs0rYep, one of the first things I do with a linux I don't know is to try all the common hacker tools against it02:21
KotCzarnycurs0r: you don't need a rootkit for that02:21
KotCzarnyonly ssh02:21
KotCzarnyit's not an iphone02:21
Curs0rI don't need any 'tools' per se but I like to see how it holds up against skiddie type attacks02:21
KotCzarnyah, ok02:21
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KotCzarnyas long you don't give them physical access it should be ok02:22
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Curs0rMy router still catches idiots trying to use TerDrop02:22
lcukthis device is quite secure out of the box isn't it02:23
KotCzarnykernel is quite old02:23
lcukie until you break the seal and start installing non-nokia approved stuff02:23
KotCzarnygood question02:23
lcuki believe it is02:24
KotCzarnynetstat -atuwn02:24
KotCzarnyshould tell you what is runninx02:24
KotCzarnyand on which ports02:24
lcukhowever there has to be exploitable holes everywhere - just like in other devices - the difference here is there is an illuminated pathway and its almost expected02:25
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Curs0rThe software is incidental to me almost, I love the shell this thing is sporting, and that is one of the most precise touchscreens I've seen on a handheld02:25
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lcuknahh i find it horribly in-precise: i have NEVER been able to hit a single specified pixel02:26
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lcukat 1/225" though its to be expected02:26
Curs0rYeah my brother is pissed because I told it to call me with its IP every time it connects to the net02:26
Curs0ryay for shell scripting02:26
lcukgo the whole hog and get it taking a picture of the user02:27
lcukand maybe a soundbite02:27
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Curs0rI suppose I could write that up and share it. N800 leash or somesuch02:27
lcukim considering that for when the device is unlocked02:27
KotCzarny'connection attempt logged, *beep* i repeat, connection attempt logged'02:27
lcuki have to do the fingerprint scanning program02:28
lcukit would look like a cool way to unlock device02:28
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Curs0rI figure I don't want it to notify the user, so if it's stolen it says howdy and gives the user's location02:28
KotCzarnylcuk, btw. how about touching with the whole hand and getting 'hand footprint' ?02:28
lcukim thinking vulcan grip02:29
KotCzarnyi wonder how specific/repeatable that could be02:29
KotCzarnycurs0r: gps? pic? :)02:29
lcukit will just be a cool way to pretend that its high tech02:29
Curs0rhrmm, you could use a programmable angle so that the user sets what is imaged and at what direction02:29
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lcukjust take a picture..02:30
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KotCzarnysignature activated login?02:31
KotCzarnyusing stylus?02:31
lcukbut we dont ever logon02:31
Curs0rI'll probably want to send a command back to it if you hit the 'stolen' button that turns the volume to max and starts screeching "STOLEN DEVICE!"02:31
lcukjust have it check for a file on the ftp when its uploading a picture02:32
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lcukand besides, you would want to wait a while02:32
lcukget a few good pictures02:32
KotCzarnyhidden camera02:32
KotCzarnygive away nokias02:32
KotCzarnycollect pr0n02:32
lcukthere is no way that a new user would leave all the bits alone02:32
lcukthere are much smaller devices already for that02:33
lcukisnt that x11camera thingy02:33
KotCzarnyis there a way to prevent reflash?02:33
pupniki love it when the kids are all doin their cellphone stuff and i pull out the N81002:33
* KotCzarny is thinking about disabling usb port02:33
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lcukseriously kot, how many people who rob devices would know specifically to flash this specific device as soon as they grabbed it?02:34
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Curs0rMost of them can barely look up a web page, which is why they have to steal.02:34
lcukyou think they have a chart on the wall "hmmm the 810 - if i steal that i have to get the serial number of the back, login to download the flasher connect to web and flash device....02:34
KotCzarnylcuk, some do02:35
lcukyou can bet your ass most dont02:35
KotCzarnyyou want to make sure02:35
fang64KotCzarny has a point the thieves that take laptops now have it harder than ever with TPM and the bios password locks on some of them02:35
lcukyou are just crippling device for no reason, usb can be useful at a pinch02:36
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fang64just to keep the possibility of thief using it X.x02:36
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KotCzarnylcuk: to be true i have never used usb on the device yet02:36
lcukbut they all switch them on and go "shit, password" and try about 20 combinations before it ends up at the geek up the street02:36
KotCzarnywifi/bt is more than enough02:36
lcukwith 810 it would auto connect without a apassword usually02:36
Curs0rWell so much for my security software idea, this channel is logged so it's no big 'owners oonly' secret is it?02:37
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KotCzarnyonly once when i was curious if it presents as multi-lun device or different controllers02:37
lcukcursor, you could shout it from the rooftops and i bet noone would know to look before trying it02:37
KotCzarnycurs0r: you can probably google your words and they will show up already02:38
fang64trying to lock down the Maemo devices? seems kind of hard, they are a bit open already02:38
lcuklook at all the people who get caught on digg or other forums after nicking cameras etc with autoupload02:38
KotCzarnyfang64: how about custom kernel + no possibility to reflash ?02:38
fang64jtag? lol02:38
fang64well again most thieves don't know how to use or build those interfaces lol02:39
lcuk"user friendly updating"02:39
KotCzarnyand opening n8x0 can easily damage it02:39
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fang64protecting data from a thief would be a worthy effort02:39
KotCzarnyfang64: cut a jtag track with a laser? ;)02:39
fang64eww.. that's nasty02:40
lcukok, this is for the kid who nicks my n810:  "DO NOT USE MY NOKIA N810 OVER THE INTERNET BEFORE YOU REFLASH IT OR I WILL KNOW WHO YOU ARE"02:40
KotCzarnylcuk: 'and i will post photos what you did there yesterday' ?02:40
Curs0rNo video recording then?02:40
lcuk*grainy, snowy pictures of your nose02:40
KotCzarnycurs0r: mencoder02:40
Curs0rI hadn't checked for that yet02:40
KotCzarnyworks happily02:41
fang64I think the TPM stuff at version 3.0 gets a bit scary some of them have call home functions02:41
lcukyes, but why video - just timelapse is enough for uploading02:41
KotCzarnylcuk: hint: it's not a nose..02:41
fang64putting something like that on a N8x0 would be pretty nice02:41
lcukadditional note: DO NOT USE GENITALIA AS A STYLUS02:41
KotCzarnyfang64: embed it in wifi firmware?02:41
fang64well the TPM stuff is more for laptops and desktops ( scary )02:42
KotCzarnylcuk: additional note2: 'that rash won't go away without doctor's help'02:42
Curs0rI suppose even 5 fframes per second is good enough for a security function02:42
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fang64it's not like you can't have a script running in the background that phones home02:42
KotCzarnyfang64: battery drain02:42
fang64that's trivial to do02:42
lcukbut you want to use it yourself and not drain the battery02:42
lcukjust take a picture when its unlocked and be done02:43
celestehlcuk: is  that what i've been doing wrong?02:43
lcukcelesteh, yes.02:43
fang64does the maemo have cron? ( lol probably not ) but it'd be funny if it did02:43
Curs0rsimple enough to port cron02:43
KotCzarnyfang64: i believe even if it doesn't it should compile/run happily02:43
lcukno, but it has nanosleep :) just compile your daemon02:44
fang64you could have cron run something that phones home02:44
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fang64but that is assuming it has a connection02:44
KotCzarnydbus has 'connection available' trigger02:44
fang64test for connection if it doesn't schedule it another time02:44
lcukkot :)02:44
KotCzarnyyou don't even to test for it, just setup a listener02:44
Curs0rI'll bet my irc bot would run on it nicely02:45
Curs0rWrote my own02:46
fang64console app I take it02:46
fang64that'd definitely be scary02:46
fang64send message to it, I know where you live XD02:46
fang64have it pop up on screen02:46
fang64but then again that'd be bad XD02:46
KotCzarnyremote slave02:46
KotCzarny'i see what you have on your \\pc\d\family\02:47
fang64they'd toss it away in probably02:47
fang64in the trash*02:47
lcukstill you would have a photo02:47
lcukand ip02:47
Curs0rsmash it with a hammer out of panic02:47
KotCzarnyaim sniffer?02:48
lcukjust start pushing goatse to i02:48
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fang64I think that would be getting excessive02:48
fang64lol local airpwn ?02:48
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KotCzarnyp2p client with \\pc\d\media as a sahere?02:48
lcukyer, their internet connection would be really fast, the material might be objectional though02:49
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fang64that's just a bit much02:49
KotCzarnyi wonder who could be held responsible02:49
lcukyer especially if it triggers accidentally during a presentation ;)02:49
Curs0rHave it tap their windows box and install every malware app on the adaware and spybot lists02:49
lcuki think im just gonna have mine taking a picture and sending it back and be done with it02:50
Curs0r400 instances of myway search02:50
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KotCzarnylocal m$ boxen pwnage02:50
fang64uhm metaspolit and access to their local network02:50
fang64that's bad02:50
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lcukfang, it would have access to YOUR local network as well, better make sure you don't trigger it yourself02:50
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KotCzarnywho uses m$ with network connection anyway?02:51
fang64first problem is, I don't use windows actually02:51
Curs0rThat's why you have it call home and wait for the "stolen" command02:51
lcukwhy assume windows only?02:51
KotCzarnyit could gather data from local network02:51
lcukare you REALLY that confident that your linux box is secure?02:51
KotCzarnythen trigger 'stolen' environment02:52
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fang64who said I was running linux lol02:52
Curs0rmost people don't know how to use iptables properly, tiz true02:52
KotCzarnynot a problem02:52
fang64I actually have 2 Sun Workstations here02:52
KotCzarnyas long you don't run mysqld02:52
fang64Solaris does have it's problems and I'm aware of them02:52
KotCzarnyor something02:52
Curs0rknockd conquers all02:52
lcukand a linux box (likely) with access to your phone connection account02:52
lcukor at least a router02:53
lcukand every piece of network accessible software multiplies greatly the chances that an exploitable bug could be discovered02:54
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fang64I'm behind a Sidewinder G2 Router02:54
fang64haven't seen those hacked yet02:54
fang64they lack a root account02:54
fang64but as far as some of the other things, I'm not too sure about my HP Printer that's on the network probably hackable02:55
fang64actually probably is02:55
KotCzarny17,900$ ?02:55
KotCzarnyspecify model then02:55
fang64got it free in a dumpster out of charlotte02:55
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fang64a IBM subsid shutdown02:56
fang64it probably cost that02:56
KotCzarnyah, shucks02:56
KotCzarnycorporate trash roolez?02:56
Curs0rAmerica has the richest garbage in the world.02:56
fang64I've got copies of all sorts of IDEs etc02:56
fang64Bank of America tosses tons of stuff out02:56
fang64you'd be amazed02:56
fang64software licenses etc.02:57
Curs0rI had an idea to start assembling those discarded pcs and making a community cluster. Doing large compiles for local charities and such02:57
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lcuki would think dumpster diving at a bank is akin to bank robbery so wouldnt consider it02:57
fang64I'm actually building a cluster at my college02:57
fang64been running into problems02:58
fang64well you'd think that02:58
fang64but the thing is that those companies have like 10~12 dumpster bins02:58
fang64worth of computer equipment02:58
Curs0rWell cluster may be a misnomer, I mean an array of indepedant machines running distcc and such02:58
fang64they toss out02:58
fang64IBM subsid i think was called Solaria or something like that, they tossed out touchscreen terminals, servers, sun workstations ( where I got mine ), racks02:59
fang64it is kind of sick actually02:59
lcukright time, right place :)02:59
* KotCzarny is feeling jealous02:59
Curs0rI hate the keyboard that comes with sun workstations02:59
fang64I had 2 pizzaboxes before that03:00
fang64Sparc Station 10s03:00
Curs0rSparcs are fun03:00
fang64yes they are03:00
Curs0rI got to play with a mips system once. That was a cool little cpu03:01
KotCzarnywrt54g has mips03:01
KotCzarny(or mipsel)03:01
fang64Kot the sidewinder I have is 210D03:01
fang64I'm missing quite a bit of it's software03:02
fang64but it is a bit overkill03:02
KotCzarnyi'm quite happy with my openwrt box here03:02
fang64I wish i had the other stuff to go with it like the modules03:02
KotCzarnystable and uptimes in months03:02
lcukgnite all03:02
KotCzarnynite nite03:02
Curs0rGood night03:03
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fang64it runs on a Modified version of FreeBSD, called SecureOS03:03
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fang64you think it would be exploitable03:03
fang64but lacking root makes things real hard03:03
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KotCzarnylacking tools too03:03
fang64well it has rudimentary stuff03:04
fang64nothing crazy03:04
KotCzarnyit barely fits my epic/screen session03:04
KotCzarny(yes, i run epic/screen on my router)03:04
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fang64does openwrt run on Fon Routers?03:04
fang64been thinking about messing with it03:05
fang64I got a Fon when they were free03:05
KotCzarnyit should have a compatibility chart03:05
fang64never fiddled with it03:05
Curs0rwhat is epic/screen?03:05
KotCzarnyepic is a ircii fork03:05
KotCzarnyenhanced programmable irc client03:05
KotCzarnyscreen is just a screen util03:06
* Mousey huggles screen03:06
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Mouseybut when i use it in maemo, i can't use backspace03:06
KotCzarnythat let's you detach a running session and reatach later/from diff machine03:06
Mouseyand stty erase ctrl-v ctrl-h doesn't work03:06
KotCzarnymousey: you can add your own keys to the osk03:06
KotCzarnyand remap keys with xmodmap too03:06
fang64eh it does03:06
KotCzarnyon screen keyboard03:07
* Mousey has a hardware keyboard03:07
Mouseythat's not the point03:07
Mouseyi can't hit backspace inside screen03:07
* jott hands mousey a proper termcap03:07
Mouseyjott: srsly03:07
fang64might do that, since my fon hasn't been updated03:08
Mouseyjott: if i could just set the proper TERM in screen [and have screen honor it]03:08
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KotCzarnymousey: export TERM=something ?03:08
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Mouseyyea, but it doesn't work?03:08
KotCzarnytry another then03:09
Mouseyby default screen uses "screen" as the term03:09
jotti've got TERM=screen-256color and backspace works fine with osso-xterm03:09
Curs0risn't there a way to screen "screen" from screen? hehe03:09
KotCzarnycurs0r: there is03:09
MouseyCurs0r: yes, screen -e^Ee -S session name03:09
KotCzarnybut you should map their command combo key to diff. chars03:10
Mouseythen you can use ctrl-a as the control key for the first dimention and ctrl-e as the control key for the embedded screen03:10
Curs0rI was attempting to be hoomorous03:10
MouseyCurs0r: good try ;)03:10
KotCzarnycurs0r: why? it's quite convenient feature03:10
KotCzarnyconsider screen that has multiple sessions at once03:10
KotCzarnyso you don't have to relogin everytime03:11
Mouseyconsider the sheer lack of memory in the device03:11
KotCzarnydefine lack of memory03:11
Curs0rI forget....03:11
jottMousey: but really try to check if your terminfo is somehome outdated or broken03:11
Mousey4 shells deep03:11
jottbackspace should work..03:11
KotCzarnyi run 2x epic + screen + 5 shells + im client + logger03:11
* Mousey reluctantly installs screen again 03:11
KotCzarnyand links browser sometimes03:11
KotCzarnyah, and sshd of course03:12
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KotCzarnydnsmasq, junkbuster proxy, crond, httpd03:13
jottadd a mutt and elinks and you have everything you need ;)03:13
KotCzarnyso.. which part of lack of memory you are talking about?03:13
KotCzarnyjott: i prefer links203:13
jottcan it do 256 colors? ;)03:14
KotCzarnyit can do graphics03:14
jottin screen? :)03:14
KotCzarnythat's limited by sshd :)03:15
elbI'm not sure if this is relevant ... but I find that ^] is a fantastic screen escape key03:15
KotCzarnyand screen itself :)03:15
KotCzarnyelb: i have learned about it hard way03:15
KotCzarnywhen i setup 'resize +3' to it03:15
fang64KotCzarny: have you seen these
jottnearly as funny as [return] ~ .  in a ssh session03:16
KotCzarnyfang, heh03:16
Mouseyyou guys got screen from debfarm?03:16
KotCzarnymousey: i usually compile stuff myself03:16
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KotCzarnyheh.. 120mhz ?03:17
fang64I know03:17
elbno, I mean I use ^] as screen's escape key03:17
elband it's great ... because essentially nothing else uses it, and the things which do use it as an escape key03:17
Mouseyyea, doesn't work03:18
fang64KotCzarny: dunno add about acouple of those to your home network you might have a exploiters dream home lol and what's bad is appliances are beginning to use those03:18
fang64It's like why are my windows opening themselves uhhhh03:19
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KotCzarnyit costs ~70$ ?03:21
fang64probably cheaper in bulk03:22
fang64I first saw those in a CNC shop to update older machines to support NC script loading over the network. they weren't that small though lol03:23
Curs0rfang64, do you know of a linux app that a SurfCAM user would find comfortable?03:27
fang64uhm I've seen SurfCAM, never used it03:27
fang64most guys I've seen run shops end up hiring a in house programmer to write their linux CAM programs03:27
fang64if they don't they end up using something commercial and windows03:28
Curs0rI figured as much. I'm learning OpenGL for that reason03:28
fang64dunno seems like there would be a CAM app for linux that would simulate different cam interfaces03:29
fang64I know alot of people using MasterCAM through wine03:29
fang64can't quite quit the program to completely migrate away03:30
Curs0rI'm just going to write the ultimate spaghetti code kludge that does it all, the accounting, shipping/receiving, the machines, the art, the whole lot03:30
Curs0rBecause quickbooks sucks too03:30
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fang64uhmm it is a problem03:31
fang64I'm not much of a machinist person, I just deal with a lot of them, since when the computer breaks typically solution is to buy or replace. So they end up calling me when they run over budget.03:32
fang64then again that's what alot of companies end up doing locally03:33
Curs0rThe average peron sits down in front of modern accounting software and is pretty much immediately baffled by it.03:33
fang64not the most effective system03:33
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fang64I would agree with you there03:33
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Curs0rSo I'm just going to try and write from the perspective of the guy that owns the shop.03:33
elbthe problem is, a lot of that confusing accounting stuff is there for a reason03:34
KotCzarnyi like the cases when 'my computer is broken' == 'os doesn't start because of spyware/viruses'03:34
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fang64it's quite annoying to roll up to company who has bought at least 30 machines to replace the 10 they had problems with originally03:34
fang64the extra 20 is incase those fail03:35
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Curs0relb, the language can be simplified, with nice, safe, friendly, monosyllabic words.03:35
elbCurs0r: oh, yes, hte language can be simplified, or at least explained03:35
elbbut a lot of the arcane *practices* turn out to be very nice in certain situations03:36
elblike tax time ;-)03:36
elbbless double-entry accounting ;-)03:36
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smackpotatoi bought a fon router they use there on domain server and block some sights03:50
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fang64I got mine free03:51
fang64during the giveaway03:51
fang64you can definitely take the fon part out of them03:51
smackpotatoi bet u can set  the domain name server too03:51
fang64it'll piss off the fonero guys03:51
fang64not that it matters03:52
smackpotatonoone has posted a how to for the latest03:52
fang64which one do you have03:53
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smackpotatoi dont think03:53
fang64there is a serial port03:54
fang64you can tap into03:54
smackpotatoim to shaky to solder03:55
fang64yah that is a problem03:55
smackpotatoi should take it appart for the h of it03:56
smackpotatoso what do you do with the serial port03:56
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fang64well you need to drop the voltage of the serial interface they use03:57
fang64right now I would wait a bit03:57
fang64they might come out with something03:57
fang64I'm just digging around03:57
fang64didn't realize they had a new model03:57
smackpotatois yours very powerfull03:59
fang64dunno yet03:59
fang64haven't had a chance to play around with it really04:00
fang64I know it can be modified easily though04:00
fang64I actually got it to use it but you mentioning the dns server blocking04:00
fang64that's not good04:00
smackpotatoi dont know about the older ones04:01
fang64the older ones are easier04:01
fang64smackpotato: seems like slightly more trouble04:04
smackpotatotx for the link ill check it out now04:05
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fang64there is one apparently now04:05
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fang64smackpotato: good luck surprised me04:06
smackpotatosome chance. take care04:08
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mrmacI had a question about the Nokia N800.04:33
mrmacDoes anyone here know if you can use a Apple bluetooth keyboard with it?04:34
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elbsomeone was saying they do, just the other day04:36
elbor with an 810, I think04:36
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jga23is there any real difference between dbus and osso?04:40
mikedep333hey, how do I make it so the file manager in OS2008 reads a directory upon me opening it?04:40
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randomperson83hi all06:09
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pupnikhe said 'fiber channel' huhuhuh06:27
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Navijohnx, you have an Eee PC?06:50
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pupnik  oil isn't getting more expensive... if you use real money06:58
* GeneralAntilles rants for the gold standard for a bit.06:59
elbthat chart doesn't say what you think it does06:59
elbbut, yeah, a big problem with the "price of oil" is the suckitude of the dollar06:59
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elbgold is artificially inflated right now for various good and not-so-good reasons07:00
elbit's not nearly as *useful* as its price, it's a fiat currency just like dollars or Euros or whatever07:00
KotCzarnyit's not the gold, but deflation of other 'money' types07:00
KotCzarnyonly real currency is energy07:01
elb(the other precious metals are all much more representative of real value, because they have industrial value above and beyond their shiny factor)07:01
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elbKotCzarny: Gold is inflated more than the dollar is deflated07:01
pupnikno it's not a fiat currency, it's a natural currency which evolved from the market07:01
elboh, sure, it's a market-traded currency07:01
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elbbut its value isn't based on any fundamental worth07:01
KotCzarnyelb: it goes up and down, but it's a good indicator of rulers currency value07:01
elbunlike, say, silver or copper07:01
doc|homeelb: frankly, that's bollocks07:02
elbdoc|home: frankly, you're going to have to be a lot more specific07:02
doc|homegold has a value as a store of wealth07:02
doc|homehas had one for thousands of years07:02
elbright, but that value is based on a perception07:02
pupnikand it's divisible, unlike diamonds07:02
doc|homegiven that the money supply increased 17% last year alone, how can you say gold of all things is overpriced07:02
KotCzarnyand the fact that you can't just 'print' gold07:02
doc|homeelb: what's the value of the dollar based on?07:03
KotCzarnydoc: it's a promise07:03
doc|homeit sure as hell isn't the value of the paper and the ink07:03
elbdoc|home: and gold has increased by 100% in the past 48 months :-P07:03
KotCzarnyfrom the rulers07:03
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doc|homeKotCzarny: a promise of what?07:03
KotCzarnythat it has a value07:03
elboh, yes, the dollar is absolutely based on perception07:03
elbthat doesn't make gold *not* perception07:03
doc|homeelb: right, and why do you think that might be?07:03
KotCzarnyand can be exchanged for goods07:03
elbthere's a logical fallacy there07:03
KotCzarnyor services07:03
doc|homeKotCzarny: what quantity of goods?07:03
doc|homenot a set one, that's for sure07:03
KotCzarnydoc: that's where it goes murky07:04
doc|homenow, look at this and tell me it's not the dollar that's being inflated
elbdoc|home: because people *perceive* gold as having value which its intrinsic properties, in an industrial sense, do not support07:04
elbit's *shiny*07:04
elbyes, that is no doubt what pupnik pasted which started this conversation07:04
doc|homeelb: who gives a shit about shiny? it's that it's long lasting, limited in supply and can not be printed at the whim off a politician07:05
doc|home*of a07:05
elbpaying attention is awesome07:05
elblimited in supply is meaningless if it has no *value*07:05
doc|homeelb: I joined late, so sue me, that doesn't make the graph any less true07:05
elbmy fecal matter is limited in supply07:05
elbbut none of you are going to buy it07:05
doc|homeelb: its value is as a commodity that can be traded07:05
elbI think you need to read the beginning of the discussion07:05
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elbbecause I don't think you're arguing against what you think you're arguing against07:05
doc|homeelb: right, because your fecal matter will disappear07:05
elbI might sue you for non sequitur drivel07:05
doc|homeit degrades07:06
doc|homeelb: huh?07:06
elbbut ... I'll go to bed, instead07:06
doc|homenice, run along then07:06
elb(note that gold *also* cannot be traded for a "set quantity" of goods)07:06
KotCzarnytruth is, rulers need cheap slaves07:06
doc|homesee, introduce logic and people quickly disappear07:06
KotCzarnyand money is a good way to control them07:07
elbthink about that fr a few minutes and see if you can understand that gold is traded for value just like the dollar07:07
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elbI completely agree with you that printing money and etc. are bad, I think you're not arguing against what you think you are07:07
doc|homeelb: 3.4 grams (or so) of it can be traded for a barrel of oil, just like 8 years ago, that's much more set than the dollar07:07
elbbut that doesn't make gold something of magic ever-lasting value and use07:07
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KotCzarnyufo invasion07:07
doc|homeelb: no it doesn't, but it's a hell of a lot better than the paper with the presidents heads on it07:07
KotCzarnyfrom a gold rich planet07:08
elbyes, it is more set than the dollar -- but when the dollar regains traction and the value of gold falls (which it will, it always does), the dollar will appear to *gain* versus gold07:08
elband likely the price of oil will not fall consummately07:08
doc|homeKotCzarny: then I'll be the first to say gold is a bad idea07:08
doc|homeelb: why is the dollar going to regain traction?07:08
KotCzarnyi agree with elb that gold can loose value as well07:08
doc|homeelb: look back at the last 90 years, where has it regained traction?07:08
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elbALL I said was, gold is also not based on intrinsic *useful* value, whereas several otehr precious metals *are*07:08
KotCzarnybut for now it has more value than paper07:09
elbdoc|home: 200107:09
KotCzarnygold has useful value07:09
doc|homeelb: sure, but that makes it more useful, not less, as a store of wealth, there's not going to be supply/demand cycles in its value07:09
elbKotCzarny: yes, it does, but not $900/oz useful value07:09
doc|home(i.e. the quantity of goods it can buy)07:09
KotCzarnybecause $$ has no value07:09
doc|homeelb: pffft, 2001? that's a blip in the overall graph07:09
elbdoc|home: of course07:09
elbthe dollar is inherently inflationary07:09
elbI don't disagree07:10
doc|homethe dollar is now worth 3 cents compared to 90 years ago07:10
elbas I said, you're not arguing against what you think you're arguing against07:10
doc|homewhat is it I'm arguing against if that's the case?07:10
elbI suspect I agree with you more than I disagree with you on basing a currency -- but you saw someone saying that Ron Paul's gift of gold was less than absolute gospel and blew your top07:10
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elbI already said -- ALL I claimed is that the value of gold is NOT based on its inherent worht as a substance, it has fiat value based on perceived worth07:11
doc|homeits value *is* it being a store of wealth, how is that not intrinsic?07:11
KotCzarnybut that value is probably stable07:11
elband note additionally that that value is currently propped up by major world governments hoarding it07:11
elb(as well as regulating the release of new supply)07:12
KotCzarnyworld is moving to 'credit' money anyway07:12
doc|homeelb: governments hoarding it? they mostly offloaded it as much as possible to keep its value down07:12
KotCzarnythat's worth even less than paper07:12
elbdoc|home: tell that to Fort Knox ;-)07:12
doc|homeit having a high value shows openly how much their inflating07:12
doc|homeelb: fort knox? which hasn't had a public audit in decades?07:12
elbthere are many countries of the world where it's still not legal to own bullion07:12
elboh, now I'm not going to get into conspiracy theories07:13
doc|homeelb: that's no theory, it's a fact, there hasn't been one07:13
elbthat's fine -- but suggesting that that means there's no gold left is a conspiracy theory07:13
elbanyway, I really am going to bed07:14
elband I really do think we need to fix the currency07:14
doc|homeelb: given that the ECB sells up to 500 tonnes a year, and the british sold off massive quantities early this decade, I really don't see how you can believe they're hoarding it07:14
elb(but I don't think gold, specifically, is a magic fairy dust)07:14
doc|homeI don't either, but I don't care for its magical qualities, I care for it as a store of wealth and a means of preventing governments from inflating at their own whim07:15
* GeneralAntilles starts hoarding magic fairy dust in preparation for its eventual use as currency.07:15
* doc|home hadn't thought of that :o07:15
elbit's only a store of wealth because people believe it is a store of wealth07:16
* GeneralAntilles also starts hoarding elb's poo through a proxy just in case.07:16
elbthink about that until it registers ;-)07:16
elb"but it's a store of wealth, so it has inherent value" is a circular argument07:16
KotCzarnyit was during most of the human history07:16
KotCzarnywhy should it change now?07:16
doc|homeelb: you mean like the last few thousand years?07:17
NaviI'm a fairy07:17
doc|homeNavi: in the gay sense?07:17
elbpeople love shiny things, don't get me wrong07:17
* GeneralAntilles hold Navi hostage in his basement.07:17
doc|homegood for you! hope thay works out for you07:17
elblook at diamonds as a good example of what I mean07:17
Navidoc|home, in they "Hey! Listen!" sense.07:17
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elb(note that diamonds were essentially worthless until DeBeers got ahold of them)07:17
doc|homeelb: really, it's not about the shiny, and you make yourself sound silly to anyone who actually has a clue about why gold has a value when you say such things07:18
elb(and they still *are* ... unless they've been blessed by a magical closed very fiat-like process -- industrial diamonds are nearly free, and they have actual *use*)07:18
doc|homemirrors are shiny too07:18
elbdoc|home: it has value because it's a store of wealth!07:18
elbwelcome to failing PHIL 101 ;-)07:18
GeneralAntillesLet's all bank on copper.07:18
doc|homenice, avoiding the reasoning as to why it's a store of wealth, congratulations07:18
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: I'll take it over paper :/07:18
elbwhy is it a store of wealth?07:18
elbit's limited, fine07:19
KotCzarnyit all boils down to humans07:19
elbso are lots of other things07:19
elbnice, avoiding reality07:19
elbnow go look up diamonds07:19
doc|homeelb: do I get a chance to reply?07:19
elbwhile I sleep07:19
KotCzarnyand it doesn't matter what do you use as a currency as long it's stable07:19
doc|homeor are you just going to try to say things quickly so you sound superior?07:19
doc|homeand then rush off before I get the chance07:19
doc|homeKotCzarny: definitely, but the demands of politics means there's waaaay too much temptation to do anything but keep it stable.07:20
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sarowerI want to use OpenGL ES in maemo to develop the application in c++07:20
doc|homethat's been the downfall of currencies for most of history, even in metals when there's debasement07:20
KotCzarnyyeah.. politics07:20
sarowerany body can help to set up the development environment??07:21
elbdoc|home: you can reply if you like, I haven't seen anything logical yet07:21
elbmaybe you're just slow and distracted by what I type ... but I've seen arguments from this rant before07:21
elbit all comes down to "it has value because it has value"07:21
KotCzarnyGold can be used in food and has the E Number 175.07:21
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elbbut if you can't eat it, and you can't make stuff to process stuff you can eat from it, it ain't got intrinsic value07:22
elbit does ship those electrons mighty fast, though07:22
sarowerHow i Can use OpenGL ES / Mesa with maemo07:22
doc|homeelb: it has value because the supply can't grow any faster than it's mined. Politicians can't make it as they like, which reduces inflation. As fast as its mined is somewhere close to population growth.07:22
Navisarower, with magic07:22
doc|homeit's easily divisible and is durable07:22
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kulvesarower: have you installed the maemo SDK yet?07:23
pupniksarower: is pretty useless imo07:23
KotCzarnyand it's used by most countries07:23
doc|homeelb: that is why, over history, non-metal based currencies fail and metal based ones always reappear07:23
sarowerKulve: yes i have installed Maemo SDK 3.X07:23
kulveI recommend 4.X, as the 3 is the old one07:23
sarowerpupnik: Could not understand ..07:24
pupniksarower: no hardware gl.  only software.  slow.  useless07:24
sarowerbut 4.x do not have open gl support07:24
KotCzarnypupnik: he needs it for learning, probably07:24
kulvesarower: both 3 and 4 have the same support: none07:24
KotCzarnyat least from i understood07:24
KotCzarny*from what07:24
elbdoc|home: I totally agree with all of that07:24
elbbut ti doesn't change my claims :-)07:25
elbas I said ... you're not arguing against what I'm saying, you're arguing against the fact that I wasn't kissy-kissy with gold07:25
kulvesarower: so, install the 4.0, then install e.g. the vincent packages, and start coding07:25
pupniknah you just have a utilitarian view of value elb07:25
sarowerkulve: If i install nincent package... will it work?07:26
pupnikwhereas the austrians prove Ricardo and Adam Smith misunderstood valuation.07:26
kulvesarower: yse07:26
sarowerwhat would be the syntax... ?07:26
pupnikSo if people value gold because it's shiny, then gold has value.07:26
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kulvesarower: the normal open gl es C API07:26
kulvesarower: you can code that on a PC too..07:26
saroweropenglES or Glut or Glu?07:26
doc|homeelb: that is inherent value, we're not talking about industrial value07:27
sarowerOk lets have  a try..!07:27
doc|homesomething doesn't have to have industrial value to have inherent value07:27
pupniksorry i'll stopp offtopic07:27
sarowerKulve: Do you have any experience ?07:27
KotCzarnyhmm, btw. any idea what can be used as a real indicator of value?07:28
sarowerThen what would be the best way of installing the vincent package?07:28
kulvesarower: not much on open gl. I did run somebody's demo on my n810. The FPS was about 0.207:28
KotCzarnybecause from what i have seen everything moves up and down07:28
KotCzarnyand the whole talk about gold value is meaningless a little07:28
kulvesarower: the normal way, adding the repository for apt, then installing it with apt-get07:28
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sarowerdo you know the repository location?07:29
somanhii... how to install ogg-support on N810... when i try "gst-inspect oggdemux" it says no element oggdemux07:30
sarowerKulve: Thank you very much! lets see what happen!07:31
sarowerNow can I talk to Mr. Navi please!!!07:31
sarowerNavi: I want to talk to you now07:31
sarowerWhat do you think??07:32
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sarowerabout using the open gl in maemo?07:32
saroweryou  saying: <Navi> sarower, with magic07:32
pupniknot many people do this sarower07:35
GeneralAntillesi.e. no people07:35
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sarowerhmm... I know!07:36
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kulvesoman: you click the single install file from the
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somankulve: when i try to download oggsupport from N810 .. it it says "uanable to install. software contains updates to packages installed from a different source and is likely to harm the system. contact software author"07:46
kulvesoman: oh, that's new to me..07:47
kulvesoman: have you installed mogg before install ogg-support?07:47
somankulve : yup07:48
kulveok, so you probably need to remove the libogg and libivorbisdec from the commandline :(07:48
GeneralAntillesI believe it's trying to pull updated packages from a different repo07:48
GeneralAntillesTry with apt-get.07:48
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kulveGeneralAntilles: it is, because my packages comes from my repo, and mogg packages from extras07:50
* GeneralAntilles wishes there weren't so many damn repos.07:50
kulvenot that simple07:51
GeneralAntillesNo, but still. ;)07:51
GeneralAntillesIt hurts users more than it hinders developers.07:51
kulveand that error is only because nokia desided do something different than e.g. debian does07:52
somankulve :how to remove  libogg and libvorbisdec and mogg07:52
KotCzarnyformat c:\07:52
KotCzarny(ok, that wasn't funny)07:53
kulvesoman: log in as root, apt-get remove libogg libivorbisdec07:53
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somankulve: do i need to remove all the packages with which theres a conflict.... in the application details - problems tab -- it lists many packages under "conflict with application packages"07:57
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kulvethere shouldn't be many..07:59
kulveI'm sorry, but I have to leave now.08:00
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somankulve : it says "Application packages missing : libtheora0"08:21
somando i need to install libtheora008:21
Khertan_n810is there another irc client on 2008 than telepathy ?08:22
Navixchat beta08:22
Khertan_n810where can i found it08:22
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NaviI was going to build irssi, but realized there was no point08:22
Khertan_n810don t see it in gronmayer database'08:22
Khertan_n810nor my current repos list08:23
NaviLink courtesy of GeneralAntilles08:23
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NaviDon't ha me08:24
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Khertan_on_n810osso-xterm is really a pain to use on os200i08:33
Khertan_on_n810version for os2007 was far better and more stable08:33
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GeneralAntillesBlame a combination of Nokia's stupid-ass UI spec and rushed programming.08:34
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Khertan_on_n810the worst problem is the duplicate bug toolbar08:36
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Khertan_on_n810an other one is when script end ... no other windows can be open until precedent script window is closed08:37
Khertan_on_n810GeneralAntilles > what is your project about application installer ? i ve understood well what u say on your web site08:38
GeneralAntillesI have a website?08:38
jeddy3wow, tabletschool article is spot on08:38
Khertan_on_n810oups sorry it s not your with xchat packages08:39
GeneralAntillesOh, right, I understand the misunderstanding.08:39
GeneralAntillesNavi was just referencing the fact that I'm always pasting that xchat link in here. ;)08:39
Khertan_on_n810it s morning ... not really wake up yep :)08:40
GeneralAntillesUgh, Canola is exactly the wrong interface to use for the tablets. :\08:40
NaviOoh, that xterm is awesome08:40
GeneralAntillesKrisse is dead wrong on this one.08:40
NaviWhat's wrong with the canola interface?08:40
Khertan_on_n810i hate canola08:40
Khertan_on_n810it s useless08:40
GeneralAntillesNothing in particular08:40
Khertan_on_n810too much thing to play a song08:40
GeneralAntillesbut it doesn't make sense as a replacement for Hildon.08:41
KotCzarnyi hate hildon08:41
Khertan_on_n810i like the result of hildon but i hate the lack of signal on manyn hildon widget08:42
jeddy3yeah, canola is maybe not excactly right, but it's far better than hildon08:42
GeneralAntillesI don't disagree with the fact that it needs an overhaul, but Canola is the wrong direction.08:42
jeddy3GeneralAntilles, true08:42
GeneralAntillesDumbing it down so idiots can pick it up and use it is a stupid reason to change a UI.08:42
jeddy3GeneralAntilles, what direction would you prefer?08:42
KotCzarnyhaving no choice is stupid direction08:42
KotCzarnyif having hildon and/or canola vs hildon only08:43
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KotCzarnyi prefer the first option08:43
jeddy3one thing i would like is fullscreen (or almost) applications by default, i hate that the sidebar and topbar takes up like one fourth of the screen estate08:44
Khertan_on_n810how do u make all feature available with an interface like canola08:44
RST38hCanola is an application, it is no desktop08:44
GeneralAntillesThe taskbar and statusbar need a workover08:45
GeneralAntillesHorizontal space is probably the most important.08:45
jeddy3RST38h, i think the point is canolas user interface, not canola per se08:45
GeneralAntillesTaskbar needs to be cut down by half and maybe moved to the bottom.08:45
RST38hCanola's user interface is a pretty standard PMP UI08:45
GeneralAntilles(or at least be configurable)08:45
RST38hIt is good for PMP, but not for general stuff08:45
Khertan_on_n810jeddy3 > i like the toolbar on the right ... i can switch easily between apps08:45
GeneralAntillesHalving the taskbar would double the number of items it can hold.08:45
KotCzarnyare there canola widgets? no, it's an standalone app08:46
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RST38hNothing prohibits Nokia from starting Canola by default and always keeping it on, though08:46
Khertan_on_n810horizontal space is important for some people ! but for others it s vertical space !08:46
RST38h(they just need to throw in more SDRAM for that)08:46
GeneralAntillesWhich is why it should be configurable.08:46
jeddy3Khertan_on_n810, you could switch applications with something smaller than a two decimeter wide bar always visible =)08:47
GeneralAntillesBut a much smaller taskbar at the bottom would both practically eliminates horizontal browser scrolling in windowed mode, increase the amount of space for statusbar applets, and increase taskbar space.08:47
Khertan_on_n810jeddy3 > yes but i ll need to use stylus08:47
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Khertan_on_n810instead of my finger08:48
jeddy3Khertan_on_n810, not necessarily08:48
Khertan_on_n810(i ve large finger)08:48
jeddy3Khertan_on_n810, if two click switching would be fine, it doesn't need to be stylus08:48
GeneralAntillesHow do you get the taskbar to move with the rotation stuff, anyway?08:48
KotCzarnysame as in m$ window$08:49
Khertan_on_n810jeddy3> so it ll be less use08:49
jga23_can anybody help out with osso.Rpc.rpc_run on the system_bus in python?  I get 'system_bus' is an invalid keyword argument for this function08:49
jga23_here's the doc I'm looking at:
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Khertan_on_n810hum ... a new release of pypackager is near ... (with packages upload to maemo repository)08:51
sxpertok. now I found a bug in the backup tool from 50.208:52
Khertan_on_n810window closebox is really too small !08:53
sxpertdunno if the backup tool for 51.3 is also affected...08:53
GeneralAntillessxpert, they're exactly the same.08:53
jeddy3maybe i'm missing something, but i don't _need_ taskbar information and application menu taking up valuable screen estate _all_ the time, IMHO that is desktop computer thinking in a device thats not desktop08:53
sxpertthe thing proposes to backup the apps list so that it can get them again, but forgets to backup the sources.list file08:53
GeneralAntillesIt does backup sources.list08:53
jeddy3but the interface needs to be adapted to such change08:53
Khertan_on_n810is there a date announced for n810 wimax ?08:53
GeneralAntillesExtras just has to be re-enabled.08:53
GeneralAntilles"Q2 2008", Khertan_on_n810.08:54
sxpertGeneralAntilles, well, the restore procedure doesn't re-enable the thing properly08:54
sxpertwhich is a pain08:54
Khertan_on_n810do we know the wimax chip ?08:54
GeneralAntillesBut it does backup and restore sources.list08:54
GeneralAntillesNo, Khertan_on_n810.08:54
GeneralAntillesIt just doesn't enable Extras.08:54
GeneralAntillesThere's already a bug.08:54
GeneralAntillesSo just re-enable Extras before you restore applications.08:55
sxpertis there a "update everything" button ?08:55
KotCzarnysxpert: apt-get upgrade ?08:56
sxpertKotCzarny, I was expecting something in the install manager...08:56
NaviKotCzarny, apt-get please-put-me-into-an-infinite-reboot?08:57
sxpert'coz clicking on every app is...08:57
KotCzarnynever seen suck08:57
GeneralAntillesDiablo, sxpert.08:57
GeneralAntillesIt'll have an Update All08:57
infobotNavi meant: KotCzarny, apt-get please-put-me-into-an-infinite-reboot-loop?08:57
KotCzarnynavi: apt-get your-sources-suck-then08:57
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NaviKotCzarny, apt-get it-happens-very-often-to-many-people08:57
GeneralAntillesHaving the rtcomm beta and the SDK repo active when you apt-get upgrade will put you in a reboot loop.08:57
KotCzarnynavi apt-get install brain08:57
sxpertKotCzarny, no such device08:58
NaviOh, now we're mud slinging?08:58
KotCzarnynavi nope, i wasn't talking about you08:58
KotCzarnyunless you were the one of those people08:58
Khertan_on_n810apt-cache search brain08:58
Khertan_on_n810not found08:58
NaviAny way to add alt to the shortcut bar in xterm?09:00
este_hey, any of you guys use (py)GTK  ?  I got a problem where I can clear a textView... frustrating...09:00
KotCzarnynot without hacking source09:00
KotCzarnyuse xvkbd or xkbd09:00
KotCzarny(with special layout of course)09:00
NaviNo thanks09:01
este_erm, CAN'T clear a textView09:01
Khertan_on_n810hum i want to make an home  applet in python ... but i ven t idea ...09:01
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Khertan_on_n810what applet would u wish to have ?09:02
KotCzarnywithout heavy memory footprint09:02
Khertan_on_n810este_> TextView.get_buffer().set_text('')09:03
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Khertan_on_n810kotCzarny > python applet haven t heavy memory footprint09:04
este_yea... except.... hmmm.... I know i tried that.... hmmmmm09:04
este_wtf.... man... do I feel stupid09:05
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este_i Know i tied that though.... oh well,09:05
Khertan_on_n810my cconnection will drop train enter u,derground09:05
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jga23anybody have any experience with dbus/osso in python on the n810?09:06
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Curs0rQuestion about the n800. Is it possible to add new cities to the clock's location list?09:10
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RST38hX-Fade: Tried committing stuff to the repository last night. Still no luck. SSH refuses connection :(09:23
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somanhow to play ogg file from command line on N81010:04
KotCzarnymplayer file.name10:05
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g0ldfinGado pretty much all bluetooth headsets work with the n800?10:07
mbufwhy was the FM radio removed in the N810?10:07
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KotCzarnywho knows, why was the 2x sd changed to 1x mini sd ?10:07
g0ldfinGait wasnt really an open feature in the n800 either10:07
KotCzarnyprobably one of the ways to reduce size of the device10:08
* g0ldfinGa hopes to get a GrandCentral account10:09
mbufi see10:09
somani want to play ogg file using gst-launch10:09
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KotCzarnyinstall ogg decode plugin then10:09
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kulvesoman: gst-launch ! gnomevfssrc ! oggdemux ! ivorbisdec ! pcmdspsink10:13
kulvesoman: something like that10:13
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GeneralAntillesBecause fm radios take up space, mbuf.10:15
somanNokia-N810-50-2:~# gst-launch-0.10 gnomevfssrc location=test.ogg ! oggdemux ! ivorbisdec ! audioconvert ! dsppcmsink10:15
somanSetting pipeline to PAUSED ...10:15
somanPipeline is PREROLLING ...10:15
somanERROR: from element /pipeline0/oggdemux0: Internal data stream error.10:15
somanAdditional debug info:10:15
somangstoggdemux.c(3085): gst_ogg_demux_loop (): /pipeline0/oggdemux0:10:15
somanstream stopped, reason not-linked10:15
somanERROR: pipeline doesn't want to preroll.10:15
somanSetting pipeline to NULL ...10:15
somanFREEING pipeline ...10:15
somanit gives me this error10:16
KotCzarnysoman: pastebin.com10:16
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somankulve : what could be the problem10:17
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kulvewhat version you have of the libogg and libivorbisdec?10:17
somani have removed all the packages which were in conflict, and i install ogg-support from maemo10:18
somanthe version is 1.1.3-210:19
somaneven though i installed ogg-support i am facing this problem10:20
kulvewhat's the version of the vorbis decoder?10:21
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somangstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-ivorbis              0.10.5-4.tk1   and  libvorbisidec1                                 1.2.0-mogg110:22
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kulveI have 1.2.0-1.svn20071106.tk1 and he pipeline you said works for me10:22
kulvesoman: that's the gst plugin, not the vorbis decoder library10:22
kulveah, sorry, I misread that..10:23
kulveso your libvorbisidec1 is still from mogg project10:23
somanofcourse, it came with the ogg-support10:23
kulvenot "with". It came because it has higher version bumero10:24
somanthen how to upgrade that10:24
kulvebecause mogg project decided to put their packages to extras, there's now conflict between ogg-support and mogg :(10:25
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kulveMaybe I'll just upgrade my version numbers to be higher than what the mogg provides..10:25
kulvebut it's just stupid to do things like this..10:25
somanthen how can i play ogg files on N81010:26
KotCzarnykulve: have you talked to them?10:27
Curs0rAnyone know how to add locations to the clock/calendar settings on the n800?10:27
kulveKotCzarny: not lately10:28
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somankulve, what changes i have to do inorder to play ogg file10:31
kulveapt-get remove libvorbisidec110:31
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kulveapt-get install libvorbisidec1=1.2.0-1.svn20071106.tk110:31
kulvetry that10:31
janiCurs0r: there's one text file somewhere there.. i can check.10:32
mbufis there an example for a debian maemo source package, that has source code spread across multiple directories; would like to see the, and rules files for the same10:33
KotCzarnydo you actually have '=' in a package name?10:33
kulveKotCzarny: no10:33
kulveKotCzarny: that = specifies the version number of the package to install10:33
KotCzarnyi didn't know that10:33
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janiCurs0r: /usr/share/osso-clock/wdb-parsed.txt10:34
Curs0rjani, thanks, the closest location I get here is like 400 miles away in another state, the second closest is in another country10:34
g0ldfinGaanyone here use grand central?10:34
janiCurs0r: *g*10:35
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Curs0rA little something to put in my review; Arizona does not exist according to the n800 lol10:36
somankulve, I think i have to install bad plugin once again... coz it now it says "no element vorbisdec"10:36
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somando i require bad plugin for that10:37
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kulvethe libvorbis is the actual decoder and the gst bad is provides the gstreamer plugin for the libvorbis10:38
somankulve, still it gives the same error10:39
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somankulve, i gave gst-launch-0.10 gnomevfssrc location=test.ogg ! oggdemux ! ivorbisdec ! audioconvert ! dsppcmsink10:40
somanis that a correct command10:41
somanbut,,, i face the same problem10:41
kulve dpkg -l |grep vorbis10:41
kulveii  gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-ivorbis              0.10.5-4.tk1                       GStreamer plugin for Tremor10:41
kulveii  libvorbisidec1                                 1.2.0-1.svn20071106.tk1            Ogg Bitstream Library10:42
kulveand you have those?10:42
somanyes, i have the same10:42
kulveand "gst-inspect-0.10 ivorbisdec" gives you the error about missing element?10:43
somani did gst-inspect . please find it
kulveok, so it does find the element10:45
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kulveare you sure you didn't mistype it before..?10:45
kulveon your error above you said "vorbisdec" and not "ivorbisdec"..10:46
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somanif i say vorbisdec, it gives me "no element vorbisdec", but if i use ivorbisdec it gives me the error..
kulvethat works for me. Sorry, cant' really help more and now I have to leave10:49
somanok.. anyway thanks for ur support10:50
Curs0rThis is a friendly room. I like it here.10:51
Curs0rI get so tired of linux distro channels and the constant wankerism.10:51
KotCzarnycurs0r: that's because IT is so nice device :)10:52
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KhertanHi !11:04
ralannheh, wankerism11:07
* ralann writes that down11:07
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KotCzarnyanyone has fanoush's email address?11:26
qwerty12Try dufkaf@seznam.cz11:28
qwerty12Now I feel guilty for clicking the donate button...11:28
qwerty12Although if I ever get me a card, I wouldn't hesitate in clicking it.11:28
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Khertanla lalala lala la la11:32
Khertancommand not found.11:33
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t_s_ohmm, replacing the current interface with the canola interface?!11:38
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qwerty12Is there a replacement for dh_icons? A package I'm building needs it.12:07
qwerty12Forget it, I extracted from debian sid,12:08
Cptn-N800i might very possibly be bored12:09
qwerty12hehe, is that a school?12:09
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qwerty12Aww, if I had my N800 out, I'd get confiscated :(12:11
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Cptn-N800This is a university college, we dont even have to show up12:15
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Cptn-N800And we can use lappys etc12:15
inzAnd misuse12:15
Cptn-N800In many cases i use my n800 for school stuff, just this subject is boring12:16
qwerty12Hehe, I hate maths.12:16
inzmath is fun!12:16
qwerty12Thankfully, the teacher is dopey so I use my phone in class :P12:17
qwerty12Never! :P12:17
Cptn-N800This is statistics12:18
Cptn-N800math is its own subject12:18
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somankulve: Thanks for ur support.... i m able to play ogg file now.... im happy... thanks12:28
kulvesoman: great12:29
kulvesoman: did you find out the reason?12:29
somanfirst problem is .. i didnt had the libvorbisidec1   1.2.0-1.svn20071106.tk112:29
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somanand secondly the ogg file which i have is corrupted one.12:30
somannow i tested with different one.. and its playing.12:30
somanthanks for ur help12:30
somanwould like to be in touch with you kulve,12:30
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Khertansomeone that has never install homeip can try to install it from extras-devel repository ...12:38
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pupnikCptn-N800: funny pic.  What course is that?12:46
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kulvesoman: I'm here about always. I'm reading the maemo developers list too12:49
Cptn-N800Pupnik: bachelor in economics and administration12:50
Cptn-N800First year12:50
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Gigabitesanyone ever use xgngeo emu?12:54
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pupnikit's well hidden13:45
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pupnikoops stuck in scrollback13:45
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lardmanany theme creators/users about?13:48
termsigguys, it's any chance to switch off dhclient on that applet for searching wireless network?13:48
lardmanwhat's thre best one for transparent desktop, though I'd like to just about be able to see the side & top bars13:48
qwerty12I like nuvoClear by Underscore13:49
lardmantermsig: send it your nick13:49
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* lardman looks at nuvoClear13:49
termsiglardman: ?13:50
lardman:) I meant kill it13:50
lardman...term sig13:50
termsighaha yeah sig term!13:50
GigabitesI liked NiceLite2 until nuvoClear came out13:51
Gigabitesnuvoclear seems more finished13:51
lardmanok, 2 votes in favour13:51
qwerty12qwerty121 says nuvoClear too. Does that make a 3rd vote :P13:51
lardmanyay, N810 unused for a week still has full battery, well done Nokia :)13:52
GeneralAntillesEcho! :P13:52
GeneralAntillesmilhouse got 12 days out of his idle test.13:52
lardmanits far better than the N800, which is nice13:52
qwerty12Eek, my N800 is really bad.13:52
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GeneralAntillesIt's the SD cards.13:53
GeneralAntillesSome don't idle like they should.13:53
qwerty12But I use 48MHz MMC speed, wifi power saving off and cpu full speed with the dynamic speed changer disabled.13:53
lardmanhw issue on n800 or for all ITs?13:53
GeneralAntillesIt's a firmware, problem, I think.13:53
GeneralAntillesTama^2 has investigated it more.13:53
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't go into low power mode for some reason.13:54
GeneralAntillesTurning off wifi powersaving is a bad plan.13:54
GeneralAntillesUnless you have a really shitty router.13:54
lardman~lart microb for appearing to have finished loading a page (no progress bar) but responding to taps 5s later13:54
* infobot pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps microb for appearing to have finished loading a page (no progress bar) but responding to taps 5s later13:54
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, that's me :P13:54
GeneralAntillesWhy the hell would you disable cpu freq, anyway?13:54
qwerty12With 48Mhz kernel, the cpu freq stops it from doing the full 48Mhz.13:55
GeneralAntillesMost cards wont get a lot of benefit from 48MHz, anyway. :\13:55
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qwerty12True, my card seems to hate it. I keep on getting I/O errors.13:56
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qwerty12With really large files when unpacking.13:56
qwerty12Or downloading large files come to think of it.13:56
lardmanGeneralAntilles: I saw your post on ITT about "no viruses"; I was tempted to ask if that was a philosophical statement ;D13:56
GeneralAntillesThen why are you using it, qwerty12? <_<13:57
qwerty12Funny thing is that it works fine when I put it into removable slot. But I had the mmc debug patch applied to my kernel and removable is forced at ~25Mhz for me.13:57
qwerty12Because I don't know which part to patch back >.<13:57
lardmanyes, nuvoclear2 looks pretty good, cheers chaps13:58
qwerty12Any experts/developers around? Do me a favour please: . I can't for the life of me figure out what an munmap is.13:59
pupnikah i saw something like that14:00
lardmanfor example14:01
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qwerty12Ah thanks. I'm unsure as to why it works fine in ARMEL target but not on the ARM device itself :(14:01
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lardmanit's trying to map quite a bit of memory there14:02
pupnikit wants to make a 'shared writable mmap'14:02
qwerty12Hmm :(. I'll take a better look at the code later. Thanks, I gtg. Bye and take care all.14:02
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lardmanpupnik: do you know what it's wanting to share in there?14:03
pupniki'd first suggest cutting down on repositories14:04
pupnikand see if it's a problem with the size requested14:04
lardmanhe's gone14:04
pupnikthat's lame14:05
pupniknow i googled and have relevant answers14:05
pupniki'll post them to itt14:06
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pupnikgoogling your error message = rocket science apparently14:07
janimaybe he was running on the device and not waiting to switch to browser because his irc client might have been bgkilled ? =))14:09
janibtw, anyone know how shutdown stuff is handled in the devices ? obviously there's shutdown_ind message coming but there might be something else too ? Sigkill perhaps after graceperiod? just trying to think how to do state saving properly so that stuff wont go b0rk.14:14
lardmanIs this for oom conditions?14:14
janino, normal shutdown from shutdown menu.14:15
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lardmanah, dunno then, I was just going to say I thought I'd seen something about oom on in the docs14:17
janithose i have no problem with.14:17
GeneralAntillesHaha, it seems that way, doesn't it, pupnik?14:19
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lardmanjani: from observed behaviour, a message is sent to which the app should react and close. It appears that if this reaction doesn't occur, the desktop asks if you want to kill the app.14:23
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lardmanjani: you're working from this presumably?:
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KhertanX-Fade_ are u away ?14:32
KhertanX-Fade_ you ve got a mail (aol horrible voice) !14:33
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pupnikhow do I wget a mms?14:42
wnduse mimms14:42
johnxreplace the mms:// with http:// and give it a try?14:42
pupnikah 'wgetpro'14:43
wndmimms (1)            - mms (e.g. mms://) stream downloader14:43
pupnikhmm thx14:43
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pupnikhi ssvb!14:43
pupnikthanks wnd - mimms is in debian14:43
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wndI know it is :-)14:44
pupnikwoo.  woooo14:45
pupnikthank you wnd :) maybe something to add to tablet14:46
Naviis wgetpro a registered copy of wget that has more features such as automatic mirror scanning?14:48
* Navi kids14:48
wndyes, it's part of the gnu genuine advantage program :-)14:49
* pupnik is happy to see that the state run tv is now downloadable14:49
* Navi is happy that all of the tools that had cost money on Windows are free on Linux14:50
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X-Fade_Khertan: I'll look into it.14:53
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ssvbpupnik: hi15:08
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* lcuk munches on dinner and peers in15:14
* johnx lurks15:15
* lcuk lobs a piece of tomato @ johnx15:15
* johnx looks around...I don't think the tomato made it all the way here15:16
johnxthrow harder, you have some distance to cover :P15:16
lcukgetting on topic: does anyone know anything major about the cpu govenor?15:17
johnxI *think* it's pretty much unchanged (in behavior, not low-level implementation) from cpufreq found on pretty much any linux box15:18
johnxbasically there are several different governors it can use, which take different parameters15:19
lcuki think i umm broke the govenor...    my program was running as normal user in "slow" mode it was pulling about 10fps with the cpu on lowest setting.  i was just playing around drawing circles for a while.  when i stopped i think i must have wound it up because it was left in 400mhz mode and ran at fullspeed forever.  maybe i need to tell people to wind it up15:19
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lcukthis is with ondemand at the default 80%15:19
GeneralAntilleslcuk's wind-up ebook reader. <_<15:19
johnxbroke it?15:19
lcuknormally the gov will speed it up to full if i draw, but then a few seconds later it will drop back down15:19
johnxis it still up?15:20
lcukyer GeneralAntilles thats what i was thinking15:20
* Navi winds it up15:20
lcukim not at home so i cant tell - ill check tonight15:20
johnxmaybe there is a threshold for whether it should stay in "fast mode" for longer15:20
lcukbut i thought it worked entirely on a few seconds worth of data, but it seemed to get stuck15:20
lcuki hope there is because that is a workaround - i only did it cos i was playing mario & sonic on my sons DS a few minutes before and did same thing on mine15:21
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lcukill do prop[er testing, but just thought someone might know whether there was a speedup lock mechanism15:21
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lcukit certainly persisted beyond running the program15:22
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lcukcos i came out and back in again a few times15:22
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lcukits not important.  now more serious matters, linuxtag - ive got a couple of ideas for little toys which may work15:23
lcukim gonna create this thumbprint identification/login program.  it will need to run on startup and just lock out the system until my thumb has been pressed on it15:24
lcukn00bs won't pass the test because htey will be too gentle and wiffly ;)15:25
GeneralAntillesThat'll fail hard. :P15:25
lcukno it wont (especially if i know what my program is looking for pressure pattern wise) ;)15:26
lcukand it will look good having the scanner program actually scanning down where my thumb is and displaying my picture to let me in ;015:27
johnxaaah, the "secret door knock" method?15:27
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mgedminadd hollywoody sound effects too!15:27
lcukyes, but it will look all modern and biometricy15:27
lcukYER mgedmin15:27
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lcuk(i *might* even tie it in with bluetooth proximity ;)15:28
lcukso no matter what they do if i walk away its locked  out from them15:28
lcukpart two, how do i  develop apps while i am at linuxtag - i was gonna get a laptop but funds have tightened up.  is it simple and easy and relatively quick to install gcc and all required libraries?15:30
lcukon the device itself15:30
johnxI don't think it's any of the three, but I may be wrong15:31
lcukim not thinking of rebuilding the kernel15:31
johnxI know. I'm assuming you want to compile C programs linked against gtk/hildon?15:32
lcukyes to the c programs, but its x + xv mainly15:32
johnxmight be easier15:32
johnxif I were doing it, the first thing I'd do is boot to sd for this project15:33
lcukwhere would i get gcc from, anyone know?15:33
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johnxI don't think there's any way you'll fit the dev tools and the headers you need in internal flash15:33
lcuksd because rewriting to bits of the internal card would be bad m'kay i gather?15:33
GeneralAntillesSpace issues. :P15:33
johnxaaaand, boot to sd because you will *break something badly* when you try this15:34
lcukok, i can get a new card15:34
GeneralAntillesThe internal flash is more durable than any SD card.15:34
lcukwhy would i break something - a compiler is just that and it has an include folder and a lib folder doesnt it?15:34
johnxlargely version conflicts as you try to install header packages15:34
johnxalso, maemo is fragile15:35
lcukcan i run gcc in a vmware_maemo session ;)15:35
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lcuk(that was a joke, vmware isnt avail is it15:36
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johnxqemu is in testing I believe for arm *hosts*15:37
johnxactually, with the 4.0.1 sdk release the version mismatch might be less of a problem15:37
lcuki am quite surprised though that installing dev files would break the actual system.  in every other dev environment ive played with the files used for the compiler arent done as loaded runtime os modules15:37
johnxwell of course they're not, but previously various downgrading of installed packages was required to make everything happy15:38
lcuki will take a backup tonight and see how far i get15:38
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johnxit's not the .h files lying around that will get you in trouble, it's what you do to get foo-dev.deb to install that breaks things15:39
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lcukthats a point, but thats a limitation of the packaging system.  if i (for now) steer clear of installing *ANY* real dev libraries and just see if standard core c works then i can build from there15:41
lcuki basically already have a full library myself that i can copy the headers and .o manually, so could continue developing using that without installing extras15:41
lcukits only a problem them if i do need to extend that library and rebuild it15:41
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lcukhmm :) ok thanks johnx, you have given me enough to know i can at least give it a try15:44
johnxsure. as always, I look forward to hearing how it works out. :D15:44
lcukso do i, even if the news is "its crap" at least then we will know15:44
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* lcuk goes and finds a ((someone confirm this is right:) Mini SDHC card with highest class rating i can find?15:46
johnxmini-sdhc with a high class rating15:47
lcukexcellent thx - cyas later15:47
GeneralAntillesClass 6 is the highest you'll find.15:47
johnx'later lcuk15:47
GeneralAntillesThat security thread on ITT cracks me up.15:48
johnxI gave up on reading it15:48
johnxit almost sucked me in, too15:48
GeneralAntillesmeanwhile has a way with logical fallacies.15:48
GeneralAntillesYou wonder where some of these people come from. <_<15:49
johnxsome people are like that...they won't let their opinion be altered, no matter what evidence is presented to them15:50
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johnxI used to drive myself crazy presenting bulletproof arguments, but I don't have that kind of time these days...heh15:51
GeneralAntillesReminds me of that xkcd. . . .15:51
johnxas soon as you mentioned xkcd I thought of that one15:52
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cyberholichi everyone....15:56
cyberholicHi John :)15:58
cyberholicTo all those of you who are old enough to remember cassette-players *sigh*, i just finished a retro player in Flash: take a look and downlad the player at ... you will need to press the PLAY tape :) .....16:01
johnxthat's awesome16:02
cyberholicthat is totally not user-friendly *lol*16:02
* johnx is old enough to remember listening to his walkman on car trips with his parents16:02
cyberholicdid you had the yellow sony one?16:02
glassdon't need to be that old16:02
johnxnah, I had some aiwa rip-off16:02
cyberholicmy parents could not afford it but that was a dream!16:02
glasscassette walkmans were pretty popular up untill cheap mp3 players16:03
cyberholicknowing that this may state me as a real geek, i just found my newewst pr0n page: http://www.tapedeck.org16:03
johnxand I miss my boombox16:03
glassboomboxes rule16:03
johnxI haven't found anything else that sounds quite as good without stepping up to a full home stereo system16:04
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glasssome guys have selfmade boomboxes for parties at the univ here16:05
cyberholicthe tapedeck page is just soooo SEXY. reminds me of my dad buying the maxell tapes for 10 German Marks per unit. That was a fortune at that time but my dad loved them soooo much.16:05
cyberholicglass: you know that poster where you see that boy with a boombox and a spraycan in its hands?16:07
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janilast umf festival, there was onne chick with boombox made from "see thru" plastica, 2 big speakers, homemade amp and and nokia phone + tons of leds =)16:37
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liquid217cyberholic:  isn't the tape going in the wrong direction to be playing forward?16:39
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X-Fade_Khertan: Ping?16:53
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||cwliquid217: no that's the right way16:54
||cwcool flash though16:54
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KhertanX-Fade_ i'm here17:10
X-Fade_Khertan: check your mail.17:10
Khertancheck your's now :)17:10
Khertanand ... thanks !17:10
Khertani ll correct this in a few times today.17:11
Khertannow i understand why i ve never been able to make my maemo repository working ...17:11
Khertanas i ve never seen error in the log17:11
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X-Fade_Yeah, I guess that creating your own debian package creator is not that easy ;)17:15
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JaffaMorning, all17:16
X-Fade_Khertan: try do lintian checks, that will help you out.17:16
X-Fade_Hi Jaffa.17:16
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KhertanX-Fade_ > lintian checks ? what is it ?17:18
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KhertanX-Fade_ > Yeah, I guess that creating your own debian package creator is not that easy ;) specially when many things are broken due to busybox ... tar compression ... ar compression ... :)17:18
mgedminyay, the filesystem on my n810's internal flash is BROKEN AGAIN17:19
mgedminunless some program decided to create files on it named "ëz.ïz" and suchlike17:20
mgedmindated from 190417:20
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X-Fade_mgedmin: Ouch.17:20
mgedminwell, since it isn't the first time, I don't trust it AT ALL ANY MORE17:21
mgedminso I don't keep any data in it17:21
mgedminstill, *ouch* is about right17:21
GeneralAntillesDid you ever get it formatted correctly?17:22
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mgedminmany times, assuming that n810's File Managers "format memory card" does its job correctly17:22
mgedminwhich it seems to do17:22
Khertanmaybe a corrupted device ?17:23
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mgedminthat's what I assume17:24
mgedminhardware problem17:24
mgedminotherwise everybody would scream all the time17:24
X-Fade_mgedmin: Did you check that the partition was the right size?17:25
mgedminX-Fade_: yes17:25
mgedminand then, to be doubly sure, I repartitioned it with cfdisk to use just 1 gig out of 217:25
mgedminwith the default partition size, I can corrupt the fs reliably by doing dd if=/dev/zero of=/media/mmc1/bigfile17:25
mgedminwhen it runs out of disk space, I get a vfat error in dmesg17:26
X-Fade_mgedmin: Try to enable logging? And see if there are errors in the log?17:26
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mgedminand the partition table also gets cleared17:26
mgedminwhen I partitioned it to just 1 gig, I did not get any errors from the dd test17:26
X-Fade_Kernel errors that is..17:26
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mgedminbut a week of use, a strange reboot today (32_wd -- i.e. cpu-too-busy-watchdog), and I see these corrupted filenames17:26
mgedminwell, a couple of weeks of use17:27
mgedminwhere use = swap file + whatever the /media/mmc2/tmp gets used for (app installer?) + mytube17:27
X-Fade_mgedmin: Heavy writing to flash causes a lot of cpu usage..17:27
mgedminI wasn't writing anything today17:27
mgedminthe nokia was idle on my desk, and then I picked it up and noticed it had rebooted an hour ago17:28
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mgedmin(i've disabled sound effects so I didn't hear it)17:28
X-Fade_mgedmin: Browser open or app installer?17:28
mgedminno, just fbreader + xterm17:28
mgedminhm, xterm17:28
X-Fade_Well xterm causes the device not to go to sleep too..17:28
mgedmincould be I did the ctrl+d trick and forgot that it doesn't actually close the window, just burns 100% cpu17:28
X-Fade_So perhaps..17:28
mgedminbut the battery is still at 100%, so maybe not17:29
mgedminand the 100% cpu xterm bug doesn't make the device non-responsive, so watchdog shouldn't complain17:29
mbufwhat is the PKG_CHECK_MODULES name for hildon-1?17:29
mbufI use `pkg-config gtk+-2.0 hildon-1 --cflags --libs`; but, need to translate the same to PKG_CHECK_MODULES in configure.ac17:30
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mgedminwhich is better -- mogg or ogg-support?17:31
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qwerty12mgedmin, ogg-support works with canola too with an addon but is said to have problems with VOIP. but you can delete speex codec afair17:32
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kulveand the canola support will get better soon..17:33
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kulvebut currently it seems that mogg project broke the ogg-support :/17:33
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mgedminyay, install both get neither17:34
mgedmindon't have canole17:34
mgedmindon't want canola17:34
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mbufnever mind, found it, hildon-117:35
mgedminwant to listen to oggs and mp3es with the default media player17:35
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mgedminam I out of luck?17:35
qwerty12Both will do fine then.17:35
qwerty12I mean either one.17:35
mgedmin(or not)17:35
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KevinVermawhy doesn't i see my gtalk buddies online at times on meamo ?17:35
KevinVermadefault gtalkt client , forgot its project name17:36
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KevinVermatelepathy is the framework i guess17:37
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qwerty12Just out of question, does anyone have the acmonitor-0.1.tar.gz ? I'd be interested in looking at it, the original site just times me out.17:39
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* mgedmin keeps forgetting if OS2008 is bora or chinook17:40
X-Fade_mgedmin: chinook ;)17:41
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* lardman was looking for
mgedminlet's hope they continue to be in alphabetical order (bora, chinook, ...)17:41
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mgedminwhat's a wind name starting with d?17:41
qwerty12diablo :P17:41
X-Fade_mgedmin: Diablo is also 2008 ;)17:41
KevinVermaanyone tried rtcomm ? does it support gtalk-voice ?17:41
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mgedminwhee, but diablo isn't out yet, right?17:41
lardmanthe previous ones weren't though... Mistral, Scirocco, Gregale17:42
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GeneralAntillesmgedmin, are you living under a rock? :P17:42
mgedminyes, why?17:42
GeneralAntillesJuuust wunderin'17:42
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mgedminin fact, there are 81 unread rocks waiting in my google reader17:42
mgedminand I-don't-know-how-many from mailing lists17:42
lardmantoo warm in my office, a nice cool rock sounds good...17:42
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mgedminbloody "this software is not from nokia" confirmation dialogs17:43
mgedmininstalling apps is all wait-press-ok-wait-press-ok-wait-press-ok-wait-press-ok-wait-press-ok17:43
mgedmintoo bloody interactive17:44
* mgedmin is hungry17:44
* mgedmin wants to walk to a cafe while listening to music17:44
qwerty12That's an idea actually, patching that message out...17:44
* mgedmin wants to listen to a specific song, which happens to be a .ogg file17:44
* mgedmin therefore in a hurry and needs to deal with app installer17:44
KevinVermamaemo software management needs to be shaped up, each reflash takes few hours just to install packages one by one17:46
GeneralAntillesNot relevant anymore.17:46
GeneralAntillesDiablo has SSU.17:46
KevinVermaSSU ?17:46
GeneralAntillesSeamless Software Update17:46
GeneralAntillesNo more reflashes after Diablo.17:46
GeneralAntillesUnless you hose your system.17:46
MangoFusion_unless it craps up ;)17:47
KevinVermawheen is a relase expected ?17:47
KevinVermahomepage pls?17:47
mgedminogg-support works not17:47
GeneralAntilles"Q2 2008"17:48
JaffaKevinVerma: Homepage for what? Diablo release is 2Q0817:48
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mgedminspecifically, ogg-support doesn't let me click on a .ogg file in file manager17:48
kulveI filed a bug report about that..17:48
mgedminotoh my oggs were metalayer-crawled17:48
kulveagainst File manager17:48
mgedminwhich I didn't expect17:48
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mgedminseeing as how I copied them over through sshfs17:48
mgedminyey, oggs play!17:49
* mgedmin happy17:49
* mgedmin out for lunch17:49
KevinVermai don't think nokia is still in much favour of ogg support, do i figure correct ?17:50
kulveI haven't got any official comments from them. And no real comments to the bug reports17:51
lardmanThey won't do anything about it17:51
lardmanKevinVerma: are you interested?17:51
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KevinVermasure i will like to have full ogg support inbox  of itos based on maemo17:52
lardmanhmm, it don't think it will ever work out of the box without installing something17:52
KevinVermaeven like to see if nokia can work off prop. drivers of n8x017:53
pupnikssvb: any chance for some small demo that shows a working framesync?  i'd like to update a pixel doubled sdl buffer at 50-60fps without tearing17:53
pupnikwindow is only approx 256x224 resolution17:54
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opendeepX_Fade_:I want to commit to repository ,please send me an invitation to opendeep@garage.maemo.org17:59
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X-Fade_opendeep: For the 3rd time orso. You have already been invited.17:59
Khertanlol :)18:00
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Khertani'm not alone ... :)18:01
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X-Fade_Well, he doesn't respond to emails ;)18:01
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lardmanDoes anyone here have a2dp working on Chinook?18:14
qwerty12I don't, unless you count the only way - the one that takes high cpu usage.18:15
lardmannot that there's any reason to think it won't work, I'm just wondering about the CPU useage18:15
lardmanyeah, that's the one; my understanding was that the code had been improved18:15
qwerty12Well, the guys at INdT have said they have worked with the Bluez team and released a version that is ~70% optimised. I wonder if we will ever see it.18:16
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GeneralAntillesIt's on the roadmap.18:17
GeneralAntillesSo the answer is presumably, "Yes, once it's ready"18:17
lardmanhas it been released then?18:17
lardmaneven if it's not yet included18:17
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GeneralAntillesHrm . . . interesting. lardman, do you want to go to LinuxTag?18:24
lardmanI am going18:24
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GeneralAntillesShould I put you forward to speak for "What's next?"?18:24
lardmanI'm already doing that afaik18:24
GeneralAntillesYou're already speaking18:24
* GeneralAntilles wakes up.18:24
* GeneralAntilles gives up again.18:25
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opendeephi lardman18:26
lardmanRight, I need some help with _make_words() in the codebooks.c file of the Tremor decoder; any volunteers?18:26
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lardmancodebook.c that should be18:26
lardmanhi opendeep18:29
opendeepI am getting problem while installing  python-gtkmvc in sbox,it's throwing permission denied error18:30
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opendeepcan you help me18:30
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opendeepinstalled like this: fakeroot ./setup install18:31
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lardmaninstalled what?18:31
lardmanah, read upward, silly me18:32
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lardmannot really I'm afraid, I don't know all that much about Python18:32
opendeepIt's OK18:34
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Khertan_on_n810what mean the number 3 in liblzo2-dev_2.02-3_armel.deb18:39
lardmansub-sub version18:40
X-Fade_build version?18:40
lardmansounds better than mine18:40
Khertan_on_n810does it is an obligation ?18:40
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Khertan_on_n810(for maemo reository i mean)18:41
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kulveKhertan_on_n810: usually the 2.02 is the upstream version and the -x is increased always when a modification is done to the package by the package maintainer18:41
Khertan_on_n810uh i always use the 0.0.x for package modification18:42
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kulveI think the meaning is stated in the debian package policy or something like that :)18:43
Khertan_on_n810thx for the info18:43
kulveand I think maemo's policy is close to it18:43
X-Fade_Khertan_on_n810: Yet more rules :)18:43
X-Fade_Khertan_on_n810: You should really check out lintian.18:44
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Khertan_on_n810X-fade  > i m reading again maintainer guide18:44
X-Fade_Khertan_on_n810: Lintian will do all checks for you and tell you what you do wrong.18:44
Khertan_on_n810but english isn't my native language18:44
X-Fade_That is a lot easier than reading that thing over and over..18:44
Khertan_on_n810it s why i ve asked confirmation18:45
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X-Fade_Yeah, what you try to do is hard ;)18:45
Khertan_on_n810where can i found it18:45
Khertan_on_n810x-fade > yes, but i hope this will help to have less independant repository18:46
Khertan_on_n810an other tool, an other choice ...18:46
X-Fade_If you ever want to get your packages into debian, they'd better pass lintian tests ;)18:47
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Khertan_on_n810is there a port of lintian on maemo ?18:48
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X-Fade_Doesn't look like it.18:50
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Khertan_on_n810arg. as u know i dev only on nit as i haven t time to do it on a desktop computer18:53
X-Fade_That is a 'challenge' ;)18:53
Khertan_on_n810it s why i ve ake pygtkeditor and pypackager :)18:54
Khertan_on_n810to have tools to work onboard18:55
Khertan_on_n810so i suppose that .changes file should be also homeip-0.0.5-1_armel.deb18:56
Khertan_on_n810i mean homeip-0.0.5-1_armel.changes18:57
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Khertan_on_n810ouch i really need to finish to hildonize glade19:11
Khertan_on_n810it s open too many windows on my n81019:11
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Khertan_on_n810x-fade are u still here ?19:31
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Khertan_on_n810can i upload (maybe there is still error) package homeip-0.5.0-1_armel.deb ?19:32
Khertan_on_n810 /s/error/errors19:33
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lardmanevening all20:23
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WorkingOnWis1ae the maemo repos terrably painfully slow, so much so that dl's commonly fail?20:32
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dennyheyla...  does anyone have a link to instructions on setting the wayfinder files not to be indexed by ogg-support ?20:32
dennys/by/after installing/20:32
infobotdenny meant: heyla...  does anyone have a link to instructions on setting the wayfinder files not to be indexed after installing ogg-support ?20:32
* denny blinks20:33
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dennyinfobot: cookie20:33
infobotHey denny, do you feel violated is oh yah it hurts bad20:33
GeneralAntillesWorkingOnWis1, there are a lot of maemo repositories.20:33
GeneralAntillesIt really depends on which one.20:33
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GeneralAntillesLot of variables involved.20:33
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WorkingOnWis1I think my isp is throttling my pipe. it seeme EVERYthing I dl from any repo is pig slow. xornal, maps, fbreader, canola, gcomris, pidgin, everything!20:35
CptnodegardGayfinder sucks. im not paying that much for navigation20:35
GeneralAntillesPersonally, I don't have much trouble.20:35
GeneralAntillesThen, don't, Cptnodegard. :P20:35
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Cptnodegardthere are cracks? o.o20:35
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GeneralAntillesDunno, but my point is that if you don't want to pay for it, don't pay for it. :P20:36
dennythe GPS in my N810 sucks so badly, it'd be quicker to send a carrier pigeon off to get a map from someone20:36
WorkingOnWis1i can dl iso's to the N800 right? I'll test with an ubuntu hardy iso dl20:36
dennyby the time it figures out where I am, I'll be two miles away from there20:36
Cptnodegardi want it (as maemo mapper sucks worse over here) but i dont want to pay for it20:36
Mouseyapt-get install maemo-mapper20:36
GeneralAntillesWhy does Maemo Mapper suck more in Europe?20:36
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GeneralAntillesI was under the impression that Open Street was pretty good over there.20:37
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lardmanaargh, I need a bigger buffer20:38
Cptnodegardmaps vs meamo mapper maps isnt even a competition... and real images like google earth'ish stuff is waaaaay too undetailed to even see what part of town you are in20:38
lcuklardman.buffer = malloc(9999999);20:39
lardmanlcuk: :)20:39
GeneralAntillesWhat are "maemo mapper maps"?20:39
lardmannah, I mean to get dbg() info back from the DSP20:39
lardmanlcuk: in fact I need dmesg to record more lines. Is that possible?20:40
lcukdont know, never delved into the deeper aspects20:40
lardmanI'll have to hit Google20:40
lcukdmesg [ -c ] [ -n level ] [ -s bufsize ]20:41
CptnodegardGeneralAntilles: open street, google maps etc... in open street i see the railways and E6....20:41
lcukseems possible...20:41
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pH5lardman: CONFIG_LOG_BUF_SHIFT++20:44
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lcukfrom 14 to 17?  (I think you are reading the same apges as me :P )20:44
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pH5lcuk: kernel/printk.c :)20:45
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lcukof course you could look there20:46
* lcuk knows why he has n00b status20:47
pH5lcuk: that or google. fastest way to find out, depending on whether the keyboard focus is in a terminal window or the web browser.20:47
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lardmansorry chaps, keyboard went tits up so had to reboot20:48
GeneralAntillesAnybody else continually wondering how Nokia could've screwed up the fullscreen keyboard's enter-key behavior so badly?20:48
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lardmanpH5: did you write something just before I left?20:49
lcuksince i dont use it dont see how they cocked up.   but last night i was thinking the OSK would be better than the real 810 kb20:49
pH5lardman: CONFIG_LOG_BUF_SHIFT++20:49
lcukfirst time ive ever wondered that20:49
lardmanpH5: how does one use that?20:49
lcukanyway, tea time, back later20:49
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GeneralAntillesA buddy of mine with an N810 has been using the fullscreen keyboard more than the hardware keyboard lately.20:49
pH5lardman: it's a kernel configuration parameter that determines the ring buffer size20:50
pH5defaults to 14 (16k buffer)20:50
lardmanah, ok20:50
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lardmanpH5: do you happen to know if dmesg returns all of the buffer by default? I may be able to extract some more from it I suppose20:51
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GeneralAntillesN810 in the shower? <_<20:52
Mouseythe ziplok bag mod20:52
pH5lardman|washing_:  dmesg defaults to 16k, so if your buffer is already bigger than that, you can gain something by dmesg -s somebigvalue. otherwise it's kernel recompile time.20:52
GeneralAntillesHehe, hell yeah, Mousey! :D20:52
glassziplock mod works with phones too20:52
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Mouseydouble sanwhich bags, for your protection20:53
* Mousey kant spel todai20:53
GeneralAntillesThat's how I used to do it before I got an otterbox for canoeing.20:53
pH5GeneralAntilles: how is wayfinder navigation on the waterways?20:54
GeneralAntillesIt's not20:54
GeneralAntillesI used Google Sat.20:54
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infobotGeneralAntilles meant: I use Google Sat.20:54
jgombosGA, you use the otterbox 1900?20:54
jgombosI have the otterbox 1900.. but ima 'fraid to use it on the NIT.. I have to poke pretty deep on the plastic to contact the touchscreen20:55
GeneralAntillesIt's a mildly tight fit.20:55
GeneralAntillesWorks OK20:56
jgombosthe 1900 is tight too20:56
jgombosI just wouldn't try using the touchscreen much20:56
GeneralAntillesI used to use an iQue 3600 with Garmin's BlueChart.20:56
GeneralAntillesReally nice for boating.20:56
GeneralAntillesBut the aerial photos are better for canoeing.20:57
GeneralAntillesThe 2000 is perfect as a shipping container, though.20:57
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jgombosI guess I would just use the 1900 as the shipping container too, if I had to ship it20:59
GeneralAntillesYeah, that'd work.20:59
GeneralAntillesExpensive if you just need it for shipping, though. ;)20:59
jgombosyeah.. I managed to get 20% off retail, and that was a steal21:00
jgombosand still it was like $80 or something21:00
jgombosWhat's quite useful about the otterbox is the interface to ram-mounts parts21:01
jgombosI have yet to find a NIT holder that will interface with ram-mounts parts21:01
GeneralAntillesMy buddy interns for the EPA during the summer down in the Everglades.21:01
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lardmanpH5: :thanks21:02
GeneralAntillesThey've just tens of thousands of dollars of otterbox and pelican stuff down there for all of their equipment21:02
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: They've got tens of thousands of dollars of otterbox and pelican stuff down there for all of their equipment21:02
* GeneralAntilles should remember to turn his fingers off auto-pilot more often.21:02
jgombosgreat products.. not enough competition to make the prices good21:02
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lardmanhmm, it appears I'm already seeing it all; oh well21:03
lardmanderf: you happen to be about and willing to answer questions?21:04
derflardman: Yes.21:05
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lardmanI should probably dig through the spec, but will run it by you quickly21:05
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lardmanI'm getting "overpopulated tree!" in _make_words() in codebook.c21:06
lardmanI've added output info to the function, but for the time being at least, there's too much info for me to get more than the tail end from dmesg21:06
jgombosanyone from australia or NZ around here?  Just wondering what you folks have out there for connectivity.21:07
lardmanactually there's probably not much you can do; I need to sit down and work out how the function operates to work out what to try outputing21:07
derfWell, the relevant section of the spec is
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lardmanthanks, will take a look see21:10
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lardmanhmm, byte width of a leaf, sounds like it might be dangerous...21:12
derfYeah... I would suspect the function you are actually having problems with is decpack().21:13
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lardmanderf: well that's useful; decpack is called so often I was going to try to see if I could nail down the data in _make_words(), but that's called far too often too21:14
lardmansupper time, then I'll take a look at decpack()21:15
lardmanderf: thanks for the pointer21:15
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derflardman|supper: Well, there's some fairly obvious braindamage in decpack() that you shouldn't need a debugger to see.21:17
derfLike the part where it does "entry/=quantvals" and then never uses the value of entry again.21:17
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derfI suspect it was meant to be used in the expression in the next line, but it simply doesn't appear there.21:18
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lardman|supperhmm interesting21:24
lardman|supperThe only problem is that I'm running the same code on x86 and it produces different (but perhaps also wrong) results21:24
lardman|supperI'll have to check the 16bit char thing for that code and see if it's producing the error; then check the function vs the current Tremor (not lowmem) code21:25
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Jenn87I'd like to make my Nokia 770 an mp3 player. What free application would you recommend I use?21:29
GeneralAntillesCanola, Kagu, UKMP, Kilikali, mpd/MMPC, Media player, etc, etc21:30
GeneralAntillesThere's tons of options21:30
GeneralAntillesThe best bet is to look at them all until you find the one that suits you best.21:30
Jenn87Is Canola free?21:30
GeneralAntillesThey're all free.21:30
Jenn87Oh OK21:30
GeneralAntillesThere's maybe 3 applications on the platform that aren't free.21:30
Jenn87I asked about Canola cause someone posted a comment saying "I use Canola everyday for listen music in the train. If it was free..."21:30
Jenn87It also says "Non-free license"21:31
GeneralAntillesThey mean free as in speech.21:31
GeneralAntillesNot free as in beer.21:31
Jenn87Which do you use?21:31
GeneralAntillesThey're being stubborn for pointless philosophical reasons.21:31
GeneralAntillesKinda depends21:31
GeneralAntillesCanola2 is probably what I use most.21:31
GeneralAntillesHave used UKMP in the past.21:31
GeneralAntillesMedia player is useful for audio books.21:32
GeneralAntillesMMPC for when I'm playing networked stuff21:32
Jenn87I have lots of audio books21:32
GeneralAntillesgmplayer, you mean. ;)21:32
Jenn87Which is what I'd like to use it for21:32
GeneralAntillesIf it works for you, I suppose it's an option21:32
Jenn87So gmplayer is good?21:32
GeneralAntillesIt's just a touch . . . limited as a front-end, though.21:32
Jenn87for Audio book purposes21:32
Jenn87oh ok21:32
GeneralAntillesI use Media player for audio books.21:32
GeneralAntillesThe built-in one.21:32
GeneralAntillesThere's a patched version with better audio book support21:33
GeneralAntillesI haven't bothered investigating21:33
Jenn87Ohhh ok21:33
Jenn87I thought you meant MPlayer21:33
GeneralAntillesMy audio books are generally chopped up into fairly small chunks, so bookmarking isn't a huge issue for me.21:33
Jenn87My audio books are like an hour long each21:33
GeneralAntillesThere's a patched version of mplayer, I should say.21:34
Jenn87And my trips are 10-30 minutes21:34
Jenn87so I'd have to stop or "bookmark" them often21:34
Jenn87To continue them later21:34
GeneralAntillesMaybe look into the patched mplayer21:34
GeneralAntillesThere's an audio book thread on ITT21:35
GeneralAntillesI haven't paid much attention, though.21:35
GeneralAntillesqwerty12 could tell you more whenever he's around.21:35
Jenn87I'll check ITT21:35
Jenn87Thanks GA21:35
GeneralAntillesSure thing.21:35
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Jenn87What battery life do you get on yours when listening to audio?21:35
GeneralAntillesScreen off, it's something like 8-12 hours.21:36
GeneralAntillesMaybe a little different on the 770.21:36
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GeneralAntillesI haven't run-down tested any of my 770s in a while. ;)21:36
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lardmanderf: that line may be correct as it's in a loop21:42
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derfAh, you're right.21:52
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lardmanunfortunately that fn doesn't exist in the newer Tremor code21:53
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lardmanhmm, I don't understand the code22:03
lardmananyone here with experience of Huffman decoding?22:03
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lardmanhmm, n is not incremented and passed to _make_words()22:12
Jaffalardman: only theory of it22:14
lardmanJaffa: try this for size
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lardmanhmm, I wonder where my problem lies; it appears that the variable n in _make_words() is not altered22:19
lardmann is passed in from s->entries in _make_decode_table(); but is not altered in either of these functions22:20
derfWhy would n be incremented?22:22
derfIn is the length of the list, l (i.e., the number of codewords).22:22
lardmannot incremented then, but jumps in powers of 222:23
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lardman8, 64, etc22:23
derfI know what powers of two are.22:23
lardmanhang on, let me pastebin the output22:23
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lardman - DSP output22:25
lardman - x86 output (same code)22:25
lardmanI was looking at the DSP output lines that go: _make_words: Entered; n=0; quantvals=822:26
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lardmanhmm, looks like my parameters are swapped around...22:27
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derfI don't know how you managed that one.22:29
lardmanno, nor do I; the code looks the same as far as I've looked22:29
derf_make_decode_table pulls one of those values from s, and the other directly from the stack.22:30
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lardmanyep, the function calls are identical between the two codes22:30
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derfAnd the value of quantvals on the stack should really be 0 unless you've somehow managed to get the mapping type completely wrong.22:30
lardmanor rather calls to the function22:30
lardmanwell at least it explains why the code falls over; next thing is to work out how22:31
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lardmanwill try casting the output on the DSP side to a short just incase the dbg() function is splitting the 32bit number across 2 shorts and displaying it like that22:34
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lardmanyes, it can only display 16bit numbers as its params, so it was ignoring the second number I passed it22:36
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lardmanso now they produce identical output22:36
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lardmanidentical in terms of the n and quantvals values anyway22:39
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tbfdoes maemo's kernel contain windows like patches, which boost i/o intensive processes?22:41
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keesjtbf: I don't know , send the source core I will have a look22:42
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tbfkeesj: i don't understand22:43
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tbfinformation about window's priority boost feature:
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tbfwell, and i believe to see similiar misbehaviour on maemo: i/o intensive processes (a verbose dbus service) seems to get all CPU cycles until it silences22:46
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trickietbf: you can dynamically determine scheduling with the nice system call22:51
trickiei don't believe thats 'windows like' though22:53
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tbftrickie: yup. seems i have to do that.22:53
keesjtbf: that "dynamic" priority in the article is similiar to what linux used yes22:54
keesjthe thing is that "io" intensive tasks will "eat" up there share of time pretty soon.22:55
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lardmanderf: sorry for the slight sidetrack with the apparently different parameters; it's back to _make_words()22:55
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trickiescheduling in a windows kernel is probably a lot different, so its hard to say 'this feature matches that feature'22:56
tbfkeesj: five ten of UI starvation due some greedy io intensive task doesn't fit any definition of soon - imho22:56
infobottbf meant: keesj:  ten of UI starvation due some greedy io intensive task doesn't fit any definition of soon - imho22:56
keesjthe unix strategy used to be give one thing very high proitiry at the time , but that has changed over time to give the system better responsiveness22:57
tbften seconds22:57
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* tbf 'd prefer some kind of fairness22:57
keesjtbf: that sounds like a programmer errror :P22:57
tbfkeesj: not really.22:58
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tbfwell, if you assume it to be in the kernel... ok, agreed.22:59
keesja ui thread is supposed to be not cpu(not talking about IO) intensive22:59
tbfkeesj: man GtkTreeView22:59
keesjthe dynamic proirity should go up and whenever it needs time I will get it (that is the idea)22:59
tbfthat widget needs some cycles.23:00
trickietbf: kernel has nothing to do with GTK23:00
keesjGtk is also a good example of a non threaded program23:00
keesjunder windows the system itself can redraw the window(if not resized)23:00
tbfkeesj: you said "a ui thread is supposed to be not cpu intensive"23:00
tbfkeesj: i only presented you the counter proof23:00
keesjyes 99% of the time it should be waiting for user input23:01
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tbfkeesj: still UI processes have peak situations, were they also need quite alot of CPU cycles...23:02
keesjI am not here to defend anything merly trying to tell you what I thing is the version of the trueth23:02
tbf...for instance when updating a tree view23:02
derflardman: Is an int only 16 bits?23:02
keesjtbf: a tree or something else will not take more then 800x480 pixels how is that harder to draw?23:03
lcukderf, in c int == 32bit23:03
derflcuk: No.23:03
keesj(playing a little supid here)23:03
derfThat is dead false.23:03
KotCzarnylcuk: depends on arch23:03
lcukyer on here in maemo where we are sat and compiling with gcc an int is fuffin 32bit23:03
tbfkeesj: yes, GtkTreeView is not the most efficient widget ever written23:03
KotCzarnylcuk: he is probably compiling for dsp23:04
lcuk;) good point :P23:04
keesjI don't know about GtkTreeView , I don't even really know about gtk23:04
trickietbf: but why would the kernel be responsible for scheduling the process that is using the gtktreeview23:04
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trickiebeyond what it does normally23:05
trickiethe widget itself, or gtk itself should be responsible for a responsive gui23:05
tbftrickie: well, a kernel has the resposiblity to properly schedule real applications23:05
keesjtbf: the proccess is probabely not I/O intensive but CPU bounded (if I understand correctly)23:06
tbftrickie: well, it cann't when the kernel is broken and doesn't give the UI process any cpu cycles23:06
trickietbf: well is it a single process, just not async?23:06
trickiei don't know23:06
trickietbf: but linux doesn't know if a process is UI or not23:07
trickieit can be told to determine scheduling somewhat from userspace, but it needs to be told23:07
keesjI guess this is not the right channel to get the best answers anyway.23:08
tbftrickie: well, i just say that boosting processes 'cause they cause alot of CPU load is wrong23:08
tbfat least in this case ;-)23:08
keesjthe maemo kernel is able to increase speed even (freq scaling) and thus giving everybody a boost23:08
keesjtbf: so you changed your opinion , you started about I/O righht?23:09
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keesjtbf: but I agree with you, maemo is just like windows 3.1 , and the app on the foreground should at least feel fast23:12
tbfkeesj: well, but they cann't be fast for that scheduling bug23:12
tbfkeesj: maemo uses many dbus services....23:13
trickiei agree also, just not a good example, as the two scheduling systems are different23:13
tbf....which means many io peaks...23:13
trickietbf: but it works completely differently23:13
tbf....which means many background processes get CPU time, when foreground processes should get it.23:13
trickietbf: then renice them23:14
trickieit can be done23:14
tbftrickie: doing that right now.23:16
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lcukthough nicing processes doesnt always get things up to full speed.  it might get processes taking up more of the timeslice, but if the cpu thinks it doesnt need the power it will stay down at 166mhz ;)23:17
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tbflcuk: well, guess fortunatly the horrors of GtkTreeView will convince the kernel that full cpu frequency is needed ;-)23:21
liquid217anyone ever have any trouble with 'personal menu' launching 2 xterm windows?  I am using osso-xterm 0.14 m1223:22
lcuktbf, so its worked for you?23:22
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tbflcuk: somehow23:26
trickielcuk: i know, i was just arguing that there was a way to reschedule UI process, its just done from userspace23:26
lcuktbf, do repeated testings because what works now may not work in 5 minutes or even next run23:27
lardmanderf: sorry about the delay; char = short = int = 16bits; long =float = double = 32bits; long long = 40bits23:27
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lcuktrickie, just renicing doesnt work - ive got a blit routine here that kicks the cpu over its threshold only if i DOUBLE the workload.   it needs to run at fullspeed but the governor wont let it23:28
lcukdoesn't always work*23:28
trickielcuk: sure23:30
derflardman: The int bit=... lines looks like a potential problem, then, though not _the_ problem.23:30
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trickielcuk: could you use HAL to set the freq scaling?23:35
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trickiethe chinook version seems to contain the org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.CPUFreq interface23:37
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lcukhmmm, just looking now23:38
trickienver used it though23:38
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lcukwell i have modified the govenor and scaling directly with (/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_governor) and (/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/ondemand/up_threshold) in the past which does work.  if this gives me a clean way to run the program which will not leave the device in a higher battery drain state than when i started that will be good.  (assume the program crashes, will the setting be reset)23:39
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lardmanderf: In my code that's a 16bit type now23:41
lardmanogg_int16_t bit=(entry>>(length-j-1))&1;23:41
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trickielcuk: yeah looks, interesting, probably wouldn't reset though23:43
derflardman: I was more concerned that entry and marker were 32-bit.23:43
lcuktrickie, what does appear interesting is that it appears to be a userspace api, the current governors cannot be written by default n810 user23:44
trickiecould make a small request daemon that watches for exit of requesting processes23:45
lardmanderf: It should be ok to make it a (dsp) long23:45
lcukit may be acceptable to do the switching withing a small wrapper exe/script which would get called even if the main app dies23:45
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trickielcuk: well it would be nice to have a small request daemon on the dbus also, so that processes don't clobber each others requests23:46
trickieanyway, food for thought...23:46
trickieim off, night!23:47
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lcukthe best idea would be to just allow this to be configured from the control panel and let the user choose once, but thats for another day23:47
jottlcuk: you could write your own signal handler so you will always get a more or less controlled exit23:47
lcukthanks trickie23:47
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lardmanwell I've forced the _make_words() fn to return after it's first invocation, and the length and entry values match for DSP vs x8623:51
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lcuki could (and have) write signal handler, but i just want to be as sure as possible23:51
jottlcuk: that would be really border cases :)23:52
derfAlso, today is apparently my day for not being able to read code.23:52
derfbit is always 0 or 1.23:52
lcukjoin the club..23:53
derfSo the type is completely irrelevant.23:53
AStormderf: wrong :)23:53
AStormderf: alignment?23:53
* lcuk fell down stairs this afternoon :S23:53
derfIt's a local variable.23:53
KotCzarnylcuk: all by yourself?23:53
AStormderf: still, some types cannot be accessed bit-by-bit23:53
lardmanderf: ok, so no reason to change the type then23:53
lcukyer i tripped near the top (only 4 steps) and went arse over tit and hurt my arm and legs :(23:54
derfAStorm: It's a good thing no one's trying to do that, then.23:54
lcuk(lip at the door caught on my shoe)23:54
lcukand i went flying23:54
KotCzarnyit's the moments like that when you really feel alive23:54
lcukits moment like that that i wanted to cry23:55
KotCzarnygood you didn't fractured anything23:55
lcukit fuffin hurt23:55
lcuki still  dont know if i have23:55
AStormit's the moment like that you wish you had recorded23:55
lcukits swollen23:55
KotCzarnyyou would feel if23:55
lcukyer i know23:55
lcukit is swolen but mobile23:55
KotCzarnycould be a sprain23:56
lcukmost likely23:56
GeneralAntillesHit it with a hammer and see if it hurts.23:56
KotCzarnystill, you're alive23:57
KotCzarnyso it wasn't that bad :)23:57

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