IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-03-30

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pupnikd U C k  s T A b00:10
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KotCzarnystupid xomap.00:13
KotCzarnyprobably not supporting xfs.00:14
lcukcripes, jake just nearly went crazy eddie in here00:18
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KotCzarnyi hate nokia for crippling software00:21
lcukmap for one00:22
KotCzarnyno support for xset fp+00:22
`0660what option is fp+?00:22
KotCzarnyfont path00:22
KotCzarnybe it local or remote00:23
`0660and what's the problem with map?00:24
GeneralAntillesIt's teh suck.00:24
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`0660i don't like it either, but isn't it a third party product like skype?00:25
lcukyes, but i bought this 810 because it had capable gps mapping abilities00:26
`0660wasn't there more problems with the gps unit itself?00:26
GeneralAntillesNot QUITE like Skype00:26
GeneralAntillesBut it's not in-house.00:26
lcukthats the annoying thingyou know, like when you buy a car stereo for music then find out you have to pay extra to use the cd slot00:27
KotCzarnywhat's the name of xserver package?00:27
lcukadd to that the hoops you have to jump through to get it initialized and i am left with a bad taste in my mouth re certain aspects00:27
KotCzarnylcuk: yeah00:29
KotCzarnythat's why n800 is superior to n81000:29
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KotCzarnyin similiar way n-gage qd is crippled (comparing to n-gage)00:29
lcukhindsite is a wonderful thing.   the most scary part of this is i would not give back this 810 and the 800 doesnt appeal - its got the wrong shape00:29
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lcukit was all based on form factor00:29
lcukinever liked onscreen keyboards and i didnt want to always have to carry extra00:30
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Jaffalcuk: Enabling all the features in Map is trivial by editing one 32-bit word of one file.01:14
lcukhot coffee moment!01:14
Jaffa...if one *wanted* to do that, of course. *cough*01:14
KotCzarnyis that legal?01:15
lcuki will be examining things with a microscope eventually :)01:15
lcuki personally dont see why not - its my device01:15
JaffaActually, I think in the UK it is. As long as I don't tell you how.01:15
lcukthe illegal part may be sharing how and what with others01:15
KotCzarnyyeah.. 'yours'01:15
* Jaffa hasn't signed any contract saying he won't edit random files on his device.01:15
milhouseCould be considered theft of service I suppose01:15
lcukand its no more illegal than unlocking an iphone01:16
KotCzarnyi think there's something about modifying and disassembling01:16
lcuknahhhhh cant be01:16
KotCzarnyin the license01:16
lcukwhat license?01:16
JaffaKotCzarny: what licence?01:16
lcuki havent read a eula or installed anything01:16
lcukim just examining the data that came preinstalled with my hardware01:16
KotCzarnydoes map app have some help?01:16
lcukit might do, but the barn door will be open then01:17
JaffaKotCzarny: so what if it does? It was shipped to me, and accepting any EULA isn't required to use it (even if such things were actually legal)01:17
KotCzarnyi'm just kidding01:17
lcukthis linux device even tells me that if i want to hack it i can but its not nokias responsability01:17
* KotCzarny looks at all mp3s and xvids01:17
JaffaSuch debates are healthy, of course :)01:17
milhouseIsn't it the same as taking a time limited version of Vista and unlocking it? Would you argue that is legally permissible?01:17
lcukthx jaffa :)  i was wondering the mechanism - now i will find it if required01:18
KotCzarny'you can rent this apartment, but don't go into the basement'01:18
lcuktimelocked versions of office come routinely with computers01:18
lcukooops your honour, my clock stopped01:18
lcuksilly me01:18
Jaffamilhouse: I'm not saying it's /morally/ acceptable, but I dunno about legally. IANAL.01:19
KotCzarnydoes eu license apply in us?01:19
KotCzarnyand vice versa ?01:19
lcukus thinks their license works everywhere01:19
milhouseme neither, but I'd say it's definitely a legal grey area with the benefit of the doubt going to the software author IMHO01:19
lcukeucd is similar to us license01:19
KotCzarnyonce we have nwo there will be no us/eu01:20
milhouseas to the morals of it, I think it depends on your opinion of the software author :)01:20
* Jaffa just went to great lengths to ensure his commercial software products (when he sold one) had a demo version which couldn't be unlocked as it was functionally missing code. Now, that's a lot harder to do when you want to time-limit full functionality, but it could've been a lot harder to bypass (and my ARM disassembly skills are *very* rusty)01:20
KotCzarny'one world' fsck it.01:20
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Jaffamilhouse: I'll wait on my conclusion of that when/if Navicore release updated maps - AIUI they haven't been updated since the 770 navigation kit was released.01:21
lcukim waiting to see what transpires with this next update before i do anything01:21
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lcuk6 months down the line if the patch is worthwhile and fixes things and improves stuff, then i might just get the 36month license - it includes data updates as well01:21
milhouseJaffa: I'm morally lax where Microsoft are concerned because of their size and attitude, but smaller software houses or "open source" friendly firms should be protected... if Navicore screws us over and doesn't release updates to their buggy shit then rip their faces off, please.01:22
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Jaffalcuk: that's what they've promised; but I don't believe any have ever been delivered.01:22
Jaffamilhouse: heh01:22
lcuklooking at the older versions of maemo and bitching about things, i think they have made great leaps and bounds (and to the point that '08 feels like a step backwards which i believe they are trying to rectify)01:23
JaffaIndeed. I have high hopes for Diablo (hopefully next week)01:23
lcukits not like they have rested on their laurels, they have tried to give us a worthy product01:23
milhouseI want bug fixes first, new functionality can wait01:23
lcukyes agreed01:23
Jaffamilhouse: indeed01:23
milhouseAnd a better community process - it sucks so bad that's why I've pretty much lost interest.01:24
JaffaIf 4.1 is 4.0 with just some spit and polish around the rough edges01:24
Jaffamilhouse: it's still very them/us :-(01:24
milhouseJaffa: We're an inconvenience01:24
lcuk07 was really nice by all accounts, and had lots of stable packages - i can see that starting with 08 - its been a rough few months because lots have shifted01:24
GeneralAntillesThat's the feeling I get, too.01:24
GeneralAntillesand it's very disheartening.01:24
KotCzarnywhere do i set deb_build_options ?01:25
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KotCzarny.profile ?01:25
KotCzarnyor it's per package?01:25
milhouseI'll see what the Intel devices are like and probably get involved there if the devices are any good, I expect the community involvement to be leaps and bounds better than what Nokia have achieved01:25
lcukwe have too many chefs trying to make a single pie01:25
lcuki hate intel processors though :(01:26
milhouseThey're pretty open source friendly01:26
milhouseWhich is a plus01:26
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KotCzarnyexport DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="vfp"01:27
Jaffamilhouse: indeed. The fact that qgil's admitted recently "Intel/Ubuntu required $FOO to be opened, so we opened [some part of Hildon]" - whilst simultaneously closing other stuff on Maemo is a little annoying.01:27
milhouseAnd of course they won't be using hardware under NDA's *cough* 3D *cough*01:27
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JaffaThe MIDs are going to be practically OSS from one end to the other, and they're putting a *lot* of effort into the apps to customise the UIs to be really finger friendly and not just desktop clones shrunk down.01:28
JaffaMy interest'll just depend on price point, battery life and size of the devices01:28
milhouseJaffa: +101:28
milhouseThough I expect we'll end up disappointed - we'll be calling for Nokia size devices with the Intel community spirit... :)01:29
lcukthere is community spirit here, but a lacking infrastructure to allow growth01:30
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milhouseI'm expecting the Intel kit to be a little bigger/heavier/costlier and slightly more power hungry than Nokias01:30
lcuklook, each of us has enough spirit to make a difference - i have a half bottle of scotch, what do you have?01:30
milhousethe community spirit is lacking on the part of Nokia, not the users01:31
milhouseAnd without Nokia, we're fcked01:31
lcukcorporate firewall01:31
milhouseBecause so much of the software is still closed01:31
Jaffalcuk: A rather nifty Java web framework on top of struts supporting individual components built together into pages with indepedent lifecycles?01:31
Jaffalcuk: spot on01:31
lcukhow close are we to having full linux - ive seen things like montevista etc?01:32
milhouseOn Nokia or Intel?01:32
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* Jaffa also has a bottle of 70s Royal Navy vodka. Unopened.01:32
milhouseSuspect it's closer on Intel, as the hardware is fully documented01:32
lcuki just want a hardware supported distro01:32
lcukwith this form factor01:33
milhouseCan't see that happening with Nokia's while they still have proprietary and undocumented hardware01:33
milhouse:( <---- I'm very sad to see this happen, although I moan about it a lot I'm not happy01:33
lcukwhen i had my pocketpc i felt distrant from the metal.  with this i have gotten closer to both the device (I can smell the solder) and also closer to linux01:33
GeneralAntillesI wonder why Nokia hates us so much.01:34
JaffaCorporate attitude.01:34
milhouseYou can get close, but Nokia still prevent you from going all the way and using the devices to their fullest capabilities01:34
lcuki can keep my safety net of windows and at the same time look over there and know i have an entire penguin locked up01:34
JaffaIntel have long been in the "ship stuff so developers use our chips". Nokia, even with Symbian, are in the "we want consumers to buy our devices".01:34
GeneralAntillesI'm really pulling for all the boomers to die off or retire already so people with some sense can change that attitude.01:34
lcukbut it wont change01:35
lcukwhen you get close to it you are told not to give away the crown jewels and you dont01:35
milhouseIt takes time, and I'm not sure I can wait around for Nokia to get with the programme01:35
KotCzarnywhat's the difference between ARM1136JF-S and ARM1136J-S ?01:36
milhouseI doubt Intel were open from the start - but they saw the wind of change, realised the benefits and are reaping it now01:36
milhouseOne has an F, the other one doesn't01:36
lcuknor am i - now i am linux powered, i can choose anything running it - i am thinking of this learning experience as the startings of the next 10/20 years of my life.01:36
GeneralAntillesIt's so stupefyingly frustrating to watch so much talent and spirit go to waste because Nokia can't manage to pull its head out of its own ass.01:36
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lcukbut what should they do? react to every single whine?01:37
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Jaffamilhouse: true, my point was Intel's company is based on selling chips to OEMs, which requires developers. Nokia's company is based around selling closed electrical appliances which they support (supposedly)01:37
PaavoYou're seeing just one side here.01:37
* Jaffa wonders if we'll know why tko et al left - better offer or fed up.01:37
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lcukthey would be out of business.  we are one platform within nokia - they have many.  i have seen the NIT develop into something great - why would they throw it away01:37
lcukGeneralAntilles, i hope you meant all us lot here :)01:38
JaffaPaavo: if it's a community effort (whether the NITs, ITOS or even just maemo) there aren't supposed to be any sides ;-)01:38
PaavoPardon me - I'm mostly involved with the S60 organization - but could you summarize quickly what Nokia has done wrong with Maemo?01:38
milhouseJaffa: I agree... Intel have realised there is no money in software, but free software sells hardware... but that doesn't mean that Nokia can't sell boat loads of hardware by having a really neat design - just having nice software won't sell the devices, and having closed software doubly so.01:39
GeneralAntillesGenerally, it's the whole us vs them attitude.01:39
milhouseIf Nokia have neat devices, open software, a large community of developers supporting that software then the hardware will sell itself. Again, there is no money in software.01:39
PaavoMy background is that I fought internally to get Python for S60 open sourced.01:39
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lcukthe winner from all of this is linux01:40
Paavo...and in the process talked to a fair number of lawyers.01:40
lcukits getting on LOADS of devices now and its on the lips of everyone.  you can buy them in most shops, you can give them to your gran, you can get software for them01:40
milhouseI don't think Nokia keep software closed source because it gives them a competitive advantage - you've seen Media Player, nobody in their right mind would say that gives them a competitive advantage. They keep software closed because the Corporation as a whole is not onboard with the concept of what Maemo are trying to achieve.01:41
Tama^2lawyers? who said LAWYERS? >.>01:41
* Paavo did01:41
Tama^2It's a matter of corporate attitude as it was stated before01:42
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Tama^2and it's not going to change any time soon01:42
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milhouseNokia loses - on to the next company.01:42
Jaffamilhouse: I reckon there are middle managers at Nokia who do think they're GUI apps give them a competitive advantage. At least at the start of the 770 project, they'd've said "OK, you can open source the base, but we'll keep the high-level GUI apps: then it'll be harder for someone to make a clone". Thus missing the point that Nokia's real skill can be in hardware design, packaging and marketing.01:42
milhouseI won't shed a tear01:42
Jaffas/they're/their/ (shocking)01:42
milhouseJaffa: 110% agree :( Utter fuckwits with that attitude are killing the next big thing.01:43
lcuknokia doesnt have the right to open up the wifi driver, or the pvr01:43
milhouseThey bought closed hardware - their fault01:44
KotCzarnybut they could at least provide them01:44
KotCzarnyto fully use what's inside the box01:44
lcukbinary blobs are tainted, but thats better than what we have now01:44
GeneralAntillesWhat's similar in the range for an ARM device other than OMAP?01:44
milhouseBut I also find it hard to believe that a customer as large as Nokia could not get the suppliers to change their mind01:45
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lcukblob side, they could have - the other devices from nokia using the same cpu have pvr available01:45
milhouseParticularly when you consider the same hardware is used in top end Nokia phones and they must be selling tens of millions - that must give Nokia tremendous leverage with the suppliers01:45
Tama^2milhouse: do you even think they tried?01:46
milhouseTama^2: I don't think the answer is clear cut01:46
lcukpaavo, you said you worked from the inside - are you a nokia employee?01:46
milhouseBlimey - Paavo, you're a rarity around here! :)01:47
Paavothough not involved with maemo01:47
milhouseAh, that would explain it...01:47
lcukare you aware that we on the maemo side have no power vr (3d graphics) driver available?01:47
Tama^2and it's not only about the hardware, the (lame) system UI is closed01:47
* Jaffa is still impressed that Nokia *are* doing Maemo and the N810. We just wish it were better ;-)01:47
lcukand is there anywhere you could possibly send an internal mail to to try to find out why?01:47
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lcukdoesnt have to be serious, but to obtain a corporate stance on the matter would be beneficial01:48
GeneralAntillesI like how Quim ignored the PowerVR question in the Skype interview.01:48
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lcukeven if it is a "we cannot release that driver at this time"01:48
lcuksomething official would be a start01:48
milhouseAgain I agree Jaffa, but it's failing in so many ways... I read the latest PCW magazine which had about 4 pages in the news section on MIDs - all it talked about were Intel MIDs and ASUS eee's and similar PCs. Not one single mention of Nokia or their Tablets. Nobody knows. Nobody cares.01:48
KotCzarnyor 'we don't even have a driver nor plans to have one'01:48
PaavoSend a mail? I do know the people involved, but I doubt I have any more leverage than you, really.01:48
GeneralAntillesI haven't seen a single official word on the issue.01:48
milhouseIn 10 years time, Nokia Internet Tablets will just be a Wiki footnote on "Internet Tablets"01:49
lcukpaavo, for a start, you KNOW them and have their addresses - i think an internal mail would be better than us digging and finding something which might just annoy the wrong person01:49
GeneralAntillesPersonally, I think the guy we'd have to talk to is Quim.01:50
PaavoYou sure I'm the only Nokia employee on this channel?01:50
lcukmilhouse, irrelivent - all companies become footnotes01:50
lcukyou are the first person who has identified themselves as such, yes01:50
milhouselcuk: in time, but Nokia Internet Tablets could have been leading the field01:50
PaavoI'd be very surprised if that's the case.01:50
GeneralAntillesNot true, lcuk. :P01:50
lcukahhh ok then01:50
PaavoColor me surprised then.01:50
lcukwhy havent they been quizzed then?01:50
GeneralAntilleslcuk, try dropping a line to Quim.01:51
GeneralAntillesSee if that gets you anywhere.01:51
milhouselcuk: Actually, what's happening with NITs isn't untypical for revolutionary products... it's often the first product on the market that fails to ignite the imagination of consumers until a second version from someone else cleans up...01:51
milhouseI'm thinking in the UK of TiVo's which failed yet Sky+ (inferior product) is cleaning up - both are PVRs01:52
Jaffalcuk: that's not quite true. qgil, tko, X-Fade, ferenc and a few others are/were often about.01:52
PaavoAs for what parts Nokia should fight harder to get open sourced, Ari Jaaksi might be the more appropriate level of contact.01:52
Jaffamilhouse: true.01:52
lcukmilhouse, look around, its happening everywhere - linux products are taking off big style01:52
GeneralAntillestimeless, as well.01:52
JaffaGeneralAntilles: oops, naughty me forgetting timeless01:52
GeneralAntillesWho hasn't been around in months.01:52
JaffaThere are loads others I'm forgetting too01:52
JaffaGeneralAntilles: hmm, that's true. Worrying.01:52
GeneralAntillesand I still haven't gotten my shirt. ;_;01:53
milhouselcuk: I know, great isn't it? :)01:53
lcukright, well since there are enough paavo, my apologies - ill get something together for them :)01:53
lcukmilhouse YES01:53
lcukstone bloke yes of course01:53
JaffaLoads of 'em, see ;-)01:53
milhouseI suspect some disappeared as they were simply unable to answer some of the questions due to corporate bollox01:54
JaffaThey're just all silent whilst we bellyache01:54
lcukjust a documented binary driver is all thats needed to see what a difference we could make01:54
milhouseprobably gave irc up as a bad idea01:54
GeneralAntillesWhich is too bad.01:55
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milhouseaye... it's not irc that's the problem it's the secrecy which means using irc becomes painful01:55
PaavoLet's start with the corporate firewall that blocks IRC ports :)01:56
KotCzarnyhow about ssh?01:56
lcukyes, sssssh about the ssh01:57
PaavoYou pretty much have to have your own irssi/screen server somewhere outside to chat.01:57
KotCzarnypaavo: anyone involved with *bsd/linux have at least one01:57
PaavoFortunately there's an SSH gateway you can use.01:57
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PaavoTrue. Or they should have.01:58
KotCzarnythere's no place like :)01:58
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KotCzarnyunless it's a corporate policy not to allow ssh sessions to the outside?01:59
PaavoIt's ironic that with my company phone I can IRC easier with outsiders than with insiders.01:59
milhouseAnd another gripe about Nokia Tablets - when will they sort out the fricking repository madness? I've never seen so much talk about something so fundamentally broken and so little action.01:59
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KotCzarnydefaults are ok02:00
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, hopefully that's in the next few months.02:00
GeneralAntillesX-Fade is on the case!02:00
PaavoThe phone of course connects to the public net, and getting to the intranet from there would require cumbersome authentication. As for chatting with outsiders, it's a few clicks in the PuTTY client.02:00
milhouseFingers crossed :)02:00
GeneralAntillestexrat's making some moves on it internally, evidently.02:00
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Paavomilhouse: Whatever "repository madness" you have - trust me, it's way better than anything on S60 side.02:01
milhouseTexrat bless him - I hope he doesn't get burned by all of this02:01
GeneralAntillesFor serious.02:01
milhousePaavo: Dunno, never used an S60 although I'm waiting to buy the N96 when it comes out...02:01
GeneralAntillesI think he may have gotten a bit of a smackdown on his internal blogging, though. :\02:01
PaavoThe S60 side has problems with much more basic things.02:01
lcuki hear the 95 has similar gps connection problems02:02
JaffaGeneralAntilles: indeed, did very much sound like a management slapping02:02
lcukbut it has an assistedsoftware fix to push it02:02
* doc|home waiting for the openmoko freerunner?02:03
GeneralAntillesMore corporate stupidity.02:03
milhousePaavo: But on the tablets, the repositories are a complete mess with literally every app creating their own "section" or using one of three spellings for the same section (Utilities, utilities, utils etc.). Total bollox for a device that's supposed to be end user ready02:03
lcukisnt that the fault of the developers though - or should nokia hold off and release a full sdk and toolchain which works nicely (like apple have done)02:04
GeneralAntillesWell, packagers should be less stupid.02:04
lcukif i tried to make a package now i would fail.  but because the software might work it might have to stick02:04
GeneralAntillesBut Nokia hasn't set down any good guidelines.02:04
lcukthey shouldnt need to - this is linux stuff isnt it?02:05
milhouselcuk: absolutely it's the fault of the developers, some of whome are Nokia developers. But as the repositories are also hosted on Nokia infra it's their responsibility to help clean them up, as other distros do02:05
milhouseNokia have guidelines, but don't enforce them - end result: a mess02:05
lcukyes, and things cant change overnight, i have just seen people mentioned who are in there trying to help02:05
milhouseGA: they have, the problem is nobody bothers with them02:05
GeneralAntillesWe need a half-dozen people to QC Extras.02:05
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Paavoso you say there should be people auditing the quality of the packages and rejecting those who don't conform?02:05
milhousePaavo: DAMN RIGHT02:06
`0660i agree02:06
milhouseAbsolutely... sanity check them02:06
GeneralAntillesWell, sticking them in Extra-devel, anyway.02:06
lcuklol paavo, its not such rejecting - its helping mould the packages to the standard - discuss with devs how to help02:06
lcuki fight every day against DRM02:06
milhouseConsistency and Quality will sky rocket02:06
GeneralAntillesExtras access needs to be streamlined, too.02:06
lcuki wanted an open system - let the nokia people actively help to get packages straight02:07
GeneralAntillesSo we can get everybody and their mother to stop putting up their own repos.02:07
lcddDebian has an automated tool to help developers find problems with their packages before they submit them02:07
JaffaDebian and Ubuntu don't expect random developers to stick good packages in their repositories, they have teams ensuring consistency02:07
lcuk"ok, you just submitted a package for xyz, its looking good, but you used the wrong install key, the shortcut you created is green"02:08
GeneralAntillesIf a user can turn on and connect their brand new device, open up Application manager, enabled Extras and have access to most-all of the good application packages, we'll be in a good place.02:08
JaffaHear hear02:08
milhouseDoes anyone actually view Application Manager using anything but "All"?02:08
milhouseRidiculous, isn't it02:09
lcuki try not to use it at all nowadays02:09
GeneralAntillesWho could guess what category the stuff you're looking for is in?02:09
milhousefair point02:09
* KotCzarny doesn't use app-manager at all02:09
lcukonly because i have a stable machine and it does what i want - i guess somedays i will browse the list02:09
milhouseGA: You can't! Although I reckon I know what's in "Boingo" ffs... one app, called Boingo02:09
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GeneralAntillesApplication manager is the only way to find cool new applications. :P02:10
KotCzarnynot true02:10
milhouseBoingo... contains Boingomobile... a third party app, no doubt created with the involvement of Nokia... and still they flout the guidelines and fck it up - put in Communication for crying out loud!02:10 is02:10
lcukyer, but the amount of epople who have bad experiences : re bad repo list etc make me nervous - i have backed off everything and just have the nokia ones no02:11
GeneralAntillesEh, the only trouble you'll really run into is with the rtcomm beta repo.02:11
GeneralAntillesand an apt-get upgrade.02:11
milhouseI just tend to avoid personal repositories full stop02:12
PaavoSo, how could that be helped? Develop a tool that automatically checks some basics and accepts the package only if it passes?02:12
KotCzarnyrepackage .debs02:12
KotCzarnyon the fly02:12
lcukthe amount of times manager pops up and says "repo couldnt be contacted, file corrupt, cannot install" is more worrying than a single broken program02:12
GeneralAntillesWe need people who know what the hell they're doing managing Extras.02:12
KotCzarnyand a http form with preset fcategories02:12
milhousePaavo: A few ideas were being thrown about on the mailing list a few weeks/months back... basically a checking tool, perhaps with real people eyeballing and installing apps to make sure they install ok, don't crash immediately, are in the right section, have a description etc.02:13
GeneralAntillesI love all the applications with the name as the description. <_<02:13
milhouseApart from the installation side of things, the basic sanity checks can be done in a few seconds02:13
milhouseGA: They'd be first up against the wall...02:13
GeneralAntillesIt's always stupid obscure stuff with non-descriptive names that I'd have to google to figure out what the hell they do.02:14
milhouseAnd of course it doesn't mean every update has to be checked... perhaps just the first time an app appears in Extras-devel and then any time certain fields change in the package02:14
milhouseif an update appears which has the same description/section etc. then no need to re-check it apart from ensuring it installs02:15
milhousewhich may become optional02:15
lcukmilhouse, level of trust increases, a frequently updates app with good stability is different to a first time user submitting an alternative program doing something completely different 24 hours after the first ever accepted submission02:15
milhouselcuk: spot on02:15
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milhouseultimately it can become a very workable system with only a few "helpers"02:16
KotCzarnyeven 102:16
lcukthen who will give up their job and do it - seriously, if nokia asked you - would YOU do it?02:16
milhouseyep, though the initial flood could be a bit overwhelming :)02:16
milhouselcuk: Sure02:16
Jaffalcuk: yes, I volunteered. As did loads others.02:17
milhouseI even said I would in the mailing list02:17
JaffaNokia asked for the community to come up with a plan. We did, and asked for feedback on whether it'd conflict with anything Nokia had in their (secret) pipeline. There was no response.02:17
KotCzarnyi have much time too02:17
milhouseBasic sanity checking could be done while I'm at work... check the description is accurate, it's in the right section for what it's supposed to do etc.02:17
milhouseInstalling may have to wait until I get home02:17
lcukalternatively since lots have offered.  how could we do it as a community then?   some kind of central pusher to send a list of moderators the submissions02:17
* Jaffa 's time is too precious to chase up Nokia to help them sort out their own mess.02:17
KotCzarnylet's make another repo!02:17
PaavoOne thing to take into account is that there was a reorg at the beginning of this year and things may not be completely settled down yet.02:18
Jaffa more specifically.02:18
milhouseJaffa: And *THAT'S* the Nokia attitude that pisses me off... we spend a lot of time proposing ideas, even working on solutions only for Nokia to say nothing and work on their own thing, eventually wasting our time02:18
lcukpaavo, i said this earlier - things do not happen overnight :)02:18
GeneralAntillesThe glacial rate of corporate movement is a big problem for a primarily open source project like this.02:19
milhouselcuk: Basically yes, it's just a workflow issue02:19
KotCzarnythen why not take task in out hands?02:19
PaavoI don't have any inside information on the Maemo side, but overall a complete reorg does slow things down.02:19
KotCzarnylet's make a repo, good one02:19
KotCzarnyit can be merged later into extars02:19
lcukpupnik has already essentially started :)02:20
KotCzarnybut it will be good to have a packages base ready02:20
KotCzarnygood :)02:20
milhousePaavo: No offence, but it's the same old excuses such as that one which are trotted out to make up for the problems that never improve.02:20
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KotCzarnynow the more detailed plan is needed :)02:20
GeneralAntillesIt would help a lot if we got a little more useful communication on some of the big issues.02:21
lcukok, supposing we went down your route kot, submissions - if we had a site available where we could check them out and vote on them ourselves - it could work.02:21
JaffaKotCzarny: cos X-Fade is now doing work, paid for by Nokia, on these problems. But we only find out about it when it's unveiled as a (very welcome) beta.02:21
Jaffai.e. what GeneralAntilles just said02:21
lcuka private members only beta repo and a public happy one02:21
KotCzarnyjaffa: then this whole talk is not needed02:22
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GeneralAntillesIt's not that the maemo guys are quiet (Quim is incredibly involved in the community all things considered)02:22
GeneralAntillesWe just don't get communication on a lot of important issues.02:22
KotCzarnyabout nokia not doing anything02:22
JaffaKotCzarny: assuming a) it's finished, b) it's right, c) it's done on time.02:22
KotCzarnyjust not posting updates02:22
milhouseIs Quim still active? His blog postings have almost ground to a halt02:23
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JaffaKotCzarny: It's indicative of a lack of involvement necessary to create the community. There've been hints of moaning that Nokia has to do too much; but then they do things in a way which doesn't encourage participation.02:23
milhouseAnd his postings in the mailing list are pretty rare02:23
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milhouseAmd hasn't his role changed somehow?02:23
milhouses/role/role within Nokia and Maemo/02:23
infobotmilhouse meant: Amd hasn't his role within Nokia and Maemo changed somehow?02:23
GeneralAntillesHe popped in for a bit this week to add some sanity to the thread on the guys leaving maemo.02:24
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GeneralAntillesHaven't heard much else in the last few weeks, though.02:24
GeneralAntillesLast BIG thing was the interview with thoughtfix.02:24
KotCzarnythis or other way, having community controlled repo can be a nice temporary fix02:25
milhouseYeah which said... not much02:25
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KotCzarnyall the work needed later will be simply copying packages02:25
GeneralAntillesLike I said before, I like how he ignored the PowerVR question.02:25
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milhouseThe one question I wanted him to answer he dodged (guess which one, mentioned already above)02:25
milhouse(mentioned above twice now) :)02:26
milhouseI wonder if Intel MIDs will have a PIM... :)02:26
* KotCzarny writes cmdline app to deiconify windows02:26
KotCzarnyor anyone knows about one?02:26
milhouseThat's such a thorny issue for Nokia02:26
Jaffamilhouse: they do, IIRC.02:27
milhouseIMHO, I think the NITs don't have any real PIM support out of the box because of the E9002:27
GeneralAntillesShouldn't it be fairly straightforward to port a MID application to ITOS?02:27
NaviIf it's a hildonized Ubuntu Mobile app02:28
Navithere isn't much needed to do than to cross compile in most cases02:28
Navis/isn't much needed/shouldn't be much more/02:29
infobotNavi meant: there shouldn't be much more to do than to cross compile in most cases02:29
lcukso many programs work with mouse it doesnt end up looking right02:29
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I think they're relying on a bigger screen size (albeit same res) so it might not work too well02:29
milhouseAren't Intel MIDs 800x480?02:30
milhouseah sorry - mis-read02:30
Jaffamilhouse: yes, but physcially larger (to date)02:30
GeneralAntillesLower dpi02:30
milhouseso different dpi - could make a difference i suppose02:30
GeneralAntillesThey're not much larger, though.02:30
milhousethings could be too small on nokia screens02:30
GeneralAntilles~5" versus 4.1"02:30
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Main one so far is the Samsung Q1 Ultra which is a full blown UMPC. That got a 5" screen?02:31
GeneralAntillesThat's not a MID. :P02:31
JaffaAll the s/w's very flaky at the moment. I tried it on my Eee.02:31
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: indeed, but I didn't think there was actually any MID h/w yet?02:31
GeneralAntillesThe Intel reference designs are in the 5-7" range.02:31
GeneralAntillesHrm, true enough.02:31
milhousejaffa: when they due? in the summer?02:31
JaffaCoo, 110 downloads of tablet-encode 2.18 already :-D02:31
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NaviJaffa, woo02:32
Jaffamilhouse: dunno02:32
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lcukjaffa, is that in a repo? :P02:32
milhousei thought last year they were targetting summer 2008 (or there abouts)... hopefully they're still on target02:32
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GeneralAntillesThey're gonna be way out of my price range.02:32
lcukdont bank on it - hardware prices are dropping02:33
milhousemore than €99?02:33
milhousei bet they don't have a developers program02:33
GeneralAntillesFor the MIDs or N900?02:33
milhouseMIDs :)02:33
GeneralAntillesAh, hehe.02:33
NaviPersonally, I don't think the Intel MIDs are going to be out this summer.02:34
GeneralAntillesHopefully they'll still do the discount program for the N900.02:34
lcuki foresee eee touch before then for peanuts02:34
GeneralAntillesEee form factor appeals to me this much: 0 :P02:34
lcuk9 inches of goodness02:34
milhousewith eee pc's selling for ~£200 I can't see MIDs being super expensive02:34
lcuki agree on FF unless they can fold back the keyboard totally02:34
milhousein fact the eee PC tends to make nokia tablets look expensive02:35
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I just hope the s/w lives up to the hoped-for N900 hardware (and a discount programme ;-)02:35
Jaffamilhouse: indeed02:35
lcukmilhouse, there is the elonexone for £99 as well02:35
milhouselcuk: yeah. i mean, at that price it's worth a punt just for a laugh02:35
NaviThe N800's half the price of the only Eee worth buying02:35
milhousenavi: now it is, not when it came out02:36
milhousecompare the eee pc with the n81002:36
lcukexactly - and since i should be able to use code on anything once its wrote its a winner :)02:36
lcuklike i said, im thinking longterm when i code today02:36
lcuk(ermmm apart from wehen i optimise for the specific device ...lol02:36
GeneralAntillesI was gonna say. :P02:37
Navimilhouse, I could care less for the N810, WiMax tablet, or the next N800 spinoff02:37
lcuki have no problem with writing a core set of functions to interface with the metal - its abstracted and can be duplicated/adjusted/used on different devices without effecting the programs02:37
milhouseNavi: fair enough, but others might wonder why the N810 costs as much as a full PC laptop :)02:38
milhouseNavi: And when you see the prices the N800, and the 770 before it, sell for (and still make a profit) you have to wonder how much margin there is in the Nokia Internet Tablets02:38
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milhouseNot that I'm criticising Nokia pricing policy per se, but it's coming under pressure from all areas02:39
lcukthey are a high volume, high spec company who source mini hardware like candy02:39
milhouseYep, the NITs are just mobile phones with the phone02:40
infobotmilhouse meant: Yep, the NITs are just mobile phones without the phone02:40
milhouseand a bigger display02:40
JaffaAnd fewer regulatory hoops02:40
milhouseand running Linux not Symbian02:40
Navimilhouse, that's why you don't buy an N810.02:41
milhouseJaffa: Yes, which people still don't get02:41
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milhouseJaffa: and complain about the lack of a phone - leaving it out was a master stroke!02:41
milhouseNavi: I have one02:41
JaffaAgreed 100%02:41
lcukwimax version will appeal to some people02:42
KotCzarnythat's because on nokia's site it's in 'phones' category02:42
milhouseNavi: I have all three, though I'm not sure I'll ever buy a fourth02:42
lcukthough for me, its a house computer - wifi is perfect02:42
KotCzarnythey should sell it as pda02:42
lcuk(10ma wifi at that, i dont like the shout :)02:42
lcukthey cant, it doesnt have the PIM02:42
* lcuk sees a cycle forming02:42
GeneralAntillesI hate it when people bitch about it not having a cellular modem.02:43
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GeneralAntillesMakes me want to tear my eyes out. <_<02:43
milhouseI could see internet tablets (Nokia or Intel) becoming all the computing power most people need... have a dock at home, use it with a big screen/keyboard/mouse/loudspeakers... undock it and slip it into your pocket. this is the future i see, not sure Nokia will really be a part of it though02:43
lcukso, it lives as a nice toy for now.  im happy because i will code for it until it dies then i will get something else shiney02:43
KotCzarnythen it looks like IT was a great idea but not fitting company profile02:43
KotCzarnyand existing channels02:43
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KotCzarnyseen already02:44
lcukbut dont take it at face value:   its a windows xp program running the decoding and syncing02:44
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KotCzarnyand discussed too02:44
lcukonly posted because it was what milhouse said02:44
KotCzarnyok :)02:45
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milhouselcuk: not sure that's really what i'm saying... an awful lot of people just want a computer for email, web and office apps - a 3GHz 2GB RAM 500Watt computer is overkill when it can all be done with something running an OMAP processor! :)02:47
milhouseit just needs the appropriate connections and software to make it happen02:47
milhouseAnd I think Intel know this already02:47
lcuki had this discussion a number of times with a colleague and i agree with you - the eee pc and the elonexone are examples of such a thing.  however he has given a single motivational argument against:  with a big fast pc you CAN run any game you want.  with a restricted one you are ermmm restricted.  as long as you know that fact from the start it will be ok02:48
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lcukpeople think they can use any computer to run anything02:49
milhouselcuk: *LOTS* more people don't want games02:49
KotCzarny2ghz, 2gb ram laptop is ~15W02:49
GeneralAntillesLots of people are happy with Battlegweled and Solitaire, too.02:49
* lcuk feels like hes playing devils advocate - i agree guys02:49
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AStormI've found why there are spurious clicks02:50
milhousetrue, which can run on low spec hardware :) but ordinary people just want the basics... my folks for example, or my older brothers and their families. i'd say people wanting a pc for 3d games etc. are the minority02:50
lcukmy very wise manager says that our software can do what it does for about 90% of the things people need it for.  to make the other 10% happy would take an enormous amount of resources02:50
AStormand other weird behaviour02:50
AStormstupids fromNokia reniced X to -102:51
milhouselcuk: it's usually quoted as the 80/20 rule02:51
milhouselcuk: but 90 is better than 80, so you're doing well :)02:51
lcukmilhouse, my mom was the same, she had trundled along quite nicely with her win2000 slow box for years - she got interested in gaming very rescently02:51
AStormwhich causes rampant priority inversions with 2.6.21 scheduler02:51
lcukmilhouse :)02:51
milhouselcuk: god forbid if mine ever does!!!!02:52
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KotCzarnymilfhouse, lol02:52
AStormrenicing X to 0 fixed the problems and improved interactivity02:52
milhousemilf??? :)02:52
KotCzarnyjust kidding :)02:52
lcukPMSL - get her in irc02:52
KotCzarnyonly one letter away makes such a difference :)02:52
AStormya people :P02:52
milhousehey steady on! she's 70!!!02:52
lcukAStorm, sorry, we just floated offtopic for a while02:53
milhousecan hardly work the video recorder... in fact, i know she can't02:53
KotCzarnyastorm: nice, but i bet there was an idea about renicing x02:53
KotCzarnynice to test though02:53
lcukgilfhouse :D02:53
AStormso, just remove nice in that init script02:53
lcukomg i best stop snorting, im very sorry milhouse02:53
KotCzarnyor renice it later02:53
milhousenp :)02:53
AStormheh, fun part is now that sound doen't stutter, ever02:53
milhousei bought her a tivo though - she loves it...02:54
AStormI'll check video performance too02:54
* KotCzarny tests it02:54
AStormguess old scheduler had really broken nice02:54
lcuki have noticed something re remote controls - i made one in python right at the start to replace my existing hardware remote which was broke - its not as good - i have to look at the device to see where the buttons are02:54
lcuki would hate a full no hardware press controller (like iphone)02:54
milhouselcuk: i have a touchscreen phone - sony ericsson w950i... and i hate it02:55
milhousephone rings... try to answer it pressing a soft button... no response, software busy... miss the call. pos.02:55
KotCzarnyno clicks02:56
lcukastorm - before you mess around with nice - just as a test, try adjusting the cpu up_threshhold02:56
KotCzarnynever thought it's so easy02:56
AStormlcuk, well, tried it first02:56
milhouselcuk: Harmony One is a good compromise - I have one, very good.02:56
AStormdidn't help02:56
lcukit starts at 80% and its helped push my program up where it needs -  i dropped it to 40% and it works perfectly.   damn02:56
KotCzarnythe simplest test is to open vol/bri status bar window while playing02:56
AStormthe problem was softirqs getting preempted by xomap02:57
AStormchecked with top02:57
lcukbut sorted now02:57
* AStorm still wants a CFS-patched 2.6.21ü-omap02:57
milhouselcuk: this IBM research project is where I see tablets going in future:
AStormthere were backports... and Ingo Molnar would probably refresh one if asked nicely02:58
milhouseyeah right... not in my lifetime02:59
lcukmilhouse, ive seen that before and i think the right direction02:59
KotCzarnyhave you ever though about 400mhz in your hand?02:59
KotCzarnyin '80 ?02:59
doc|homeKotCzarny: I was still a twinkle in my father's eye then04:00
AStormhehe, I had 4 MHz in my hand04:00
AStorma TI calculator04:00
milhouse20 years ago weren't they saying we'd have hover cars by now?04:00
KotCzarnydoc: but still, it's progressing quite fast04:00
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milhousesome "future ideas" just don't work out...04:00
AStormblah, there is a prototype "hovercar"04:01
milhousethe ibm concept is entirely realistic, today04:01
KotCzarnycivilization ends in 2012 anyway04:01
KotCzarnyso take your time04:01
AStorm2012 due to oil shortage, naaaah04:01
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KotCzarnydue solar activity04:01
AStormtoo banal04:01
milhousei often wonder why they have got hildon running at higher resolutions... i hold out the feint hope it's for precisely this kind of concept04:01
KotCzarnyastorm: this solar cycle is predicted to be a badass04:02
JaffaDoh, clocks have just gone forward04:02
lcukwhats the front end of the eee?04:02
milhousewhen does the unix/c clock run out? :)04:02
KotCzarnysomething we never saw before04:02
AStormso? it'll knock out some satellites?04:02
KotCzarnyastorm: more04:02
Jaffalcuk: Basically IceWM with a customised full-screen launcher in the root window. Full KDE also available04:02
AStormmess with earth's magnetic field?04:02
KotCzarnyelectricity grids are already in danger during more intense magnetic storms04:02
AStormpole reversal?04:03
lcukyes i know - and the olpc has sugar and we have maemo - its all a nice way to start the day off04:03
AStormblah grids04:03
KotCzarnythat too, but later04:03
lcukthx jaffa for specifics04:03
AStormwho needs a grid when we can have local lants?04:03
KotCzarnyyou're interconnected04:03
GeneralAntillesmaemo is a development environment, not a UI. :P04:03
KotCzarnyonce part of the network goes down04:03
KotCzarnythe rest follows because of the overload04:04
AStormeverything else stays up04:04
milhousei want my own mini fusion reactor04:04
AStormwe know balancing04:04
AStormthe proble is if you rely on a small number of sources04:04
AStormlike atomic power04:04
AStormhere in PL, there are many small coal power plants, so mostly no problem04:05
lcukdirect radiation->electric conversion will be good.  we can finally get away from waste product being a problem04:05
AStorma bit of smart power routing and that's all04:05
lcukif all that ends, we can just breed hamsters04:05
AStormlcuk: isn't that called photovoltaics?04:05
AStormalready there, not terribly efficient or cheap04:06
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KotCzarnyastorm: you're thinking locally04:06
lcukyes, but directly from the radiation source instead of just heating water and using turbines04:06
KotCzarnyright now you're part of the world04:06
AStormblah, blah04:07
KotCzarnywhat will you do when routers go down?04:07
AStormset up MANs, finally04:07
KotCzarnyno electronic transactions04:07
KotCzarnyfor example04:07
lcukreroute around - a mesh net will be better anyway04:07
KotCzarnyno mesh04:07
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GeneralAntillesOld people!04:07
KotCzarnybecause of magnetic storm04:07
GeneralAntilles(plus a form of fusion)04:07
lcukwork locally - local commerce again,. local banks etc - but for long distance an internet will exist04:07
AStormKotCzarny: use fibre?04:07
KotCzarnyi'm talking about disabled electronics04:07
AStormit's used today anyway04:08
KotCzarnyfibre, ok04:08
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KotCzarnybut it still runs on electricitry04:08
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milhouselcuk: Maybe the Amish were on to something...04:08
KotCzarnyand there are routers on the way04:08
AStormgenerate that locally04:08
KotCzarnyno generation04:08
AStormbuy your solar pane today :P04:08
KotCzarnyno power because electronics is disabled04:08
lcukthe amish are are protection against the worst that can come.  like ham radio people. we need some folks who know how to live without tech04:08
AStormnah, ahield it and it will be fine04:09
KotCzarnyastorm: you can shield, ok04:09
KotCzarnybut who will pay?04:09
KotCzarnyyou have to shield everything04:09
AStormwho needs it to work04:09
KotCzarnyand there must be an incentive04:09
KotCzarnyto do it04:09
lcukthere are jungle dwellers, there are tribes everywhere if you look hard enough04:09
AStormnah.,not everything04:09
Tama^2did I join #scifi by mistake? :P04:09
KotCzarnyastorm: you think local, switch to global :)04:09
milhouseThe Russians had it right - build their fighter jets with themionic valves, not transistors. The Americans laughed at the Russians antiquated tech, until they realised the Russian jets would still be flying after a nuclear blast had knocked out the American jets due to the EMP pulse...04:09
AStormonly control electronics04:09
lcukno tama, we moved from nokia problems to the end of the world - its not a large jump04:09
AStormplain power lines will be ok, if noisy04:10
jaskarubber boots04:10
KotCzarnyastorm: not true04:10
AStormwill need expensive filters04:10
KotCzarnythere were blackouts already04:10
AStormbecause there will be spikes04:10
KotCzarnyand it's not related to the upcoming solar cycle04:10
KotCzarnyjust regular sun activity04:10
AStormit means someone has failed at the plant :P04:11
lcukKotCzarny, do you walk around the streets with a board on your back when your not in here? :P04:11
AStormI blame cost cutting04:11
KotCzarnyyou may blame04:11
lcukrealist :)04:11
KotCzarnybut you will be without your toys04:11
KotCzarnyas the rest of the people04:11
AStormyeah, they stripped transformers of proper filtering04:11
milhouseSo these nuclear batteries that aren't user replaceable - they sound like the perfect power source for Apple products.04:11
AStormand spikes blasted lines04:11
KotCzarnyeven water pumps run on electricity04:11
KotCzarnyno power -- no water04:12
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lcukmilhouse, if you consider a 20 or 30 year lifespan, its not a bad idea for anything04:12
AStormor mechanical power04:12
KotCzarnylet this outage last more than week04:12
KotCzarnynow, this would be fun04:12
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, can you imagine the Apple Zealot terrorists?04:12
AStormblah blah04:12
milhouseGA: They're already here aren't they?04:12
KotCzarnyastorm: we will see04:12
AStormwe have backup pressure systems04:12
KotCzarnythis talk doesn't matter04:12
Tama^2do they use apple IR remotes to detonate themselves?04:12
GeneralAntillesBut they're not armed with nuclear material. :P04:13
AStormwhat is it called... capillary?04:13
milhouseClockwork power is the future...04:13
AStormI guess it is04:13
KotCzarnyastorm: think global04:13
AStormlow pressure water04:13
KotCzarnyi'm not saying WHOLE world will go down at once04:13
AStormbut still enough to feed whole city04:13
KotCzarnyjust start some riots there and there04:13
AStormheh, yup04:13
GeneralAntillesWe need to harvest energy from farts.04:13
milhouseGA: they bore me to death anyway, the nuclear material may just speed up the process - bring it on!04:13
KotCzarnyand you will see some real fun04:13
* GeneralAntilles is tired of the new non-computer-focused Apple.04:14
KotCzarnyand guess what, security systems are down too04:14
AStormnot in this country in any forseeable future, unfortunately04:14
milhouseSo will my power shower still be working in the future?04:14
AStormmilhouse: no04:14
milhouseOr will I be doubly screwed?04:14
KotCzarnypower shaver04:14
AStormunless you add your own water pump04:14
KotCzarnyunless you live close to river04:15
AStormnah, that's not enough04:15
KotCzarnybut helps a little04:15
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milhouseGA: I admire Apple for how they have reinvented themselves...04:15
KotCzarnypity nokia doesn't have a crank :)04:15
milhouseGA: Fingers in pretty much every pie... both Nokia and Microsoft are scrambling to catch up04:16
AStormto have current water pressure hold using capillary systems would need some 1000m high water tower04:16
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AStormKotCzarny: nothing stops you fom adding one04:16
KotCzarnynow add some serious weather04:17
AStormexcept replacing charger electronic04:17
KotCzarnyunwashed people -> sick people04:17
AStormthis 5V charger is junk04:17
AStormthat's why battery charges so slowly04:18
AStormtoo low current04:18
KotCzarnyastorm: thanks for the renice info anyway04:19
KotCzarnyi have seen it in the scripts04:19
KotCzarnybut forgot about it04:19
KotCzarnybtw. have you seen my xmms ?04:20
KotCzarnyfixed dialog windows04:20
AStormnah, no need for clutter on my N810 yet04:21
KotCzarnyit's the best player you can get ;)04:21
AStormnext point is creating PL-programmer keyboard layout04:21
AStormexcept canola04:21
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KotCzarnycanola sucks too because of media library04:22
AStormnah, no problem with it04:22
KotCzarnyi hate media libraries04:22
AStormI keep everything in one Music folder anyway04:22
KotCzarnyat least current implementation04:23
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AStormand it has tag collusion utility04:23
milhousedoes canola work with tversity any more?04:23
AStormwith what?04:23
GeneralAntillesNo UPnP for the time being04:23
milhouseinstalled the latest canola but can't see my network media anymore04:23
GeneralAntillesThe plugin is still being worked on.04:23
milhouseGA: Ah thanks... wondered what was going on04:23
AStormah, nope04:23
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AStormdon't need that04:23
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GeneralAntillesmilhouse, :P04:24
milhouseinteresting :)04:24
GeneralAntillesPure win.04:25
KotCzarnyastorm: does canola have effects plugins?04:25
AStormnot yet?04:25
AStormwho needs tghat anyway04:25
AStormeq is for bad music04:25
KotCzarnynot equ04:25
KotCzarnyflanger, reverb04:25
KotCzarnyfor example04:25
KotCzarnyor voice removal :)04:26
AStormdouble yuck04:26
KotCzarnyimportant for .mods04:26
AStormsimple algorithms suck toom badly04:26
KotCzarnyit's based on sox04:26
AStormcomplex are too cpu intensive for N04:26
KotCzarnynope, works allright04:26
AStormsox one is simple04:26
KotCzarnyi disagree04:26
AStormsometimes, maybe04:26
AStormand idc04:27
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KotCzarnyon another news xcompmgr works out of the box04:28
KotCzarnyshadows are nice04:28
milhouseLooks like the Nokia purchase of Navteq could hit the buffers due to EU regulators04:28
WormFoodAStorm, which do you think is worse, ignorance or apathy?   (I expect "idk and idc" as an answer)04:28
KotCzarnybut software rendering is not enough04:28
AStormWormFood: neither04:29
milhouseNo idea what this could mean for internet tablets... not much probably?04:29
AStormboth are actually quite good04:29
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KotCzarnyas long you're with nokia, hehe04:31
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arachnisthow to enable redpill mode on chinook?05:02
GeneralAntillesNew repository entry05:03
GeneralAntillestype "matrix" into the URL field05:03
arachnisti can't find the app catalogue05:03
GeneralAntilleshit cancel05:03
GeneralAntilleshit red05:03
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GeneralAntillesApplication manager: Menu -> Tools05:04
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* arachnist 's blind05:04
arachnistcouldn't find it earlier05:04
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KotCzarnythis should go on the topic05:22
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BrainsHmm...  No luck with tablet-encode...05:51
arachnistbtw, is it just me, or is canola much more usable with fingers than with stylus? :>05:52
BrainsHeh, yeah, does seem that way.05:52
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fysaoo wow.05:53
fysaiPhone bootloader cracked, custom firmware loading05:54
fysamaybe we will see maemo on iphone05:54
fysa(620mhz arm)05:54
KotCzarnydrivers available?05:54
arachnistfysa: and 320x480 screen05:54
Naviarachnist, it's designed for finger use05:54
arachnistmy damn se k800 has 320x24005:54
Naviso stylus isn't that great05:55
* Brains never thought about it much but would have assumed that being easy for fingers would mean easy for stylus too....05:55
arachnistbtw, it's kinda sad that i've used my se k800 for web for half a year now, and now it's just a bluetooth 3g modem05:56
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Fenix-Darkwhats the best/simplest way to convert videos for my n800 with linux or os x05:57
NaviI use ffmpeg05:58
* Brains is trying out the new tablet-encode.05:58
BrainsTurns out it was the GUI that was hindering me, CLI is working fine so far.05:58
Naviffmpeg -i <file> -vo mpeg4 -s 400x240 -b 1500k -ao lame <outputfile>05:58
NaviI'm probably missing a thing or two05:58
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Navioh right, libmp3lame05:59
Fenix-DarkNavi, so whats the full line?05:59
NaviWhat's the full line of what?05:59
Fenix-Darkto convert it05:59
Fenix-Darkyou said you were missing something05:59
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Navi_probably_ missing, as in I probably left something out that I don't remember06:00
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Fenix-DarkNavi, says unrecognized option '-vo'06:03
BrainsProbably should have been -vc and -ac.06:03
* Brains doesn't use it though.06:03
Brains(mencoder uses ac and vc.)06:03
Navisorry, -vcodec06:03
Navi-vcodec and -acodec06:04
NaviI don't like mencoder's documentation very much06:04
Navionly reason I don't use it06:04
Fenix-Darknow, Unknown encoder 'lame'06:04
Navi[21:56:32] <Navi> oh right, libmp3lame06:04
Fenix-Darksame deal06:05
Navihave lame installed?06:05
Naviyour ffmpeg built with lame enabled?06:05
Fenix-DarkNavi, not sure06:05
Naviffmpeg -formats06:06
BrainsThis first try at a tablet-encode run (--770, default everything else) isn't too bad at all...06:07
Navitablet-encode just uses mencoder, doesn't it?06:08
BrainsI believe so, yeah.  I'm mostly using it for the existing presets/options...  Like --770.06:09
NaviI have aliases06:09
BrainsWhich only works if you know what the desired settings are...06:11
Naviwell, I do >_>06:11
NaviLast I read, tablet-encode's profile settings are designed for media player (not to confuse with mplayer)06:12
lcuknavi, why do i get the feeling you are goin "nerrr enrrrrr" at your screen right now?06:12
Navilcuk, hehe06:12
NaviIf anything, I'd be going "Hey! Listen!"06:12
BrainsAfter that first test run (gee, it worked that time), I am running it again with the mplayer preset.  If I like the output, I'll snag the options from the code.06:13
NaviIt has an mplayer preset now?  Woo06:13
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arachnistbtw, is there a way to make the normal media player play .flac, or will i have to use mplayer for that?06:14
lcukbrains, thats basically it - different people have different favorites. some people put up with glitches in a low bitrate encode, others make different compromises, just pick something which works and adjust it till you are happy06:14
Brains"They're certainly pushed as high as they can be. v2.18 re-introduces the "mplayer" preset which really pushes the envelope (and has a higher bitrate than most TV episodes you can find on the *cough* Internet)."06:14
Brainslcuk:  Yep, already in progress.06:14
KotCzarnyyeah, mplayer, good stuff06:15
* Brains hasn't moved to tackle FLAC yet... But that is what his music is ripped as. (N810 NFS mounting the home server... Gotta love the teeny tablet with a terabyte backing it.)06:15
NaviI use mpd to play my flacs06:16
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NaviHey look, someone noticed the entire channel earlier06:17
Fenix-DarkBrains, is it easy to mount a (or a few) samba shares to the n800?06:17
BrainsFenix-Dark: Dunno, haven't looked at samba on the N8x0s...  NFS was trivial though...06:18
NaviFenix-Dark, dunno.  The N800 detects the windows file shares on my network06:18
KotCzarnyhmm, unhildonized app area ix 720x43006:18
Fenix-DarkNavi, automatically?06:18
NaviI certainly didn't configure it06:19
BrainsAnybody happen to know if there are any issues with setting up the SDK under amd64 machines?  I seem to recall hearing something about that but I can't find mention of where I heard that in my notes.06:21
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Fenix-Darki see my samba shares, but it didnt ask for a username/pass, and it shows the shares as being empty06:25
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vlad_heya, is gcc 4.2 (or something more recent than the 3.4.4 2005 special) available anywhere by chance?06:58
vlad_mmm, any debs available?06:59
vlad_I guess it doesn't much matter, I can just symlink06:59
* vlad_ asks google06:59
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KotCzarnyhere you will probably have them packaged for scratchbox07:00
vlad_oh hey, yeah, just figured out that 'scratchbox-toolchain' is what I was looking for07:01
vlad_awesome, thank you!07:01
KotCzarnylet me know how it went07:01
KotCzarnyi'm thinking about gcc 4.x too07:01
vlad_will do07:04
vlad_we have some code that gcc 3.4.4 utterly fails on, generates multiple labels with the same name in the assembly output with -O207:04
KotCzarnywhat about other -O levels?07:05
vlad_works with -Os07:05
vlad_but looks like my apt repos were all set up, so just installing scratchbox-toolchain-cs2007q3-glibc2.5-{arm6,i486} grabs the right things07:05
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Italodancehi guys07:52
curl_eitalodance: Hi. I think everyone is lurking in here. I came to see about audio apps - timidity, hydrogen etc.07:54
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Fenix-Darki still cant seem to figure out how i'm supposed to enter a user name and password to samba shares on my n800 in os2008, anyone care to enlighten me?07:56
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curl_eFenix-Dark: sorry, I can't help. What are you using as the samba client? the file manager?07:59
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Fenix-Darkcurl_e, i'm trying to use the file manager07:59
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Fenix-Darkit shows the computer with the samba shares, and it lists all of the samba shares, but it shows them as being empty, which they are not, but it didnt ask for any user name or password07:59
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vlad_argh, I am a scratchbox newb08:05
vlad_is there any way to just swap the compiler for the existing CHINOOK_ARMEL target?08:05
vlad_if I try sb-conf st -c cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm6, sb-conf yells at me that target CHINOOK_ARMEL already exists08:06
KotCzarnyadd new target08:06
KotCzarnyuse sb-menu08:06
vlad_will adding a new target keep the rest of my setup intact?08:07
KotCzarnyor if you want to switch compiler only you can reconfigure target08:07
KotCzarnythat's the reason behind scratchbox08:07
KotCzarnyadd new target/nothing changes for old08:07
vlad_yeah, but I mean I want to add a new target that uses the same on-disk files as the old, just a different compiler08:07
KotCzarnythen you will need rootstrap too, probably08:08
KotCzarnyi think swapping compiler is easier08:08
KotCzarnylet's see08:08
* KotCzarny is sb n00b too08:08
vlad_hm, I may have broken things! let's see08:09
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KotCzarnyrootstraps here08:09
KotCzarnyand there08:10
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vlad_I think this worked?08:19
KotCzarnywhich one?08:19
KotCzarny[sbox-m: ~] > gcc -v08:19
KotCzarnygcc version 4.2.1 (CodeSourcery Sourcery G++ Lite 2007q3-51)08:19
KotCzarnyi'm downloading rootstrap still08:20
vlad_I didn't tell it to install a rootstrap08:20
vlad_or install any files etc.08:20
vlad_since I already had an existing target set up08:20
KotCzarnyi prefer new target08:20
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vlad_hrm, spoke too soon08:42
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KotCzarnythis one is helpfull08:42
vlad_any binary that I build, when I try to run it.. ./foo: error while loading shared libraries: cannot enable executable stack as shared object requires: Invalid argument08:42
KotCzarnypoint 3.208:42
KotCzarnymismatched libs?08:43
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vlad_oh, I may have had the wrong devkits installed08:44
vlad_yep, all fixed looks like08:45
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vlad_almost all fixed08:52
vlad_this new gcc seems wonky08:52
KotCzarnyhow have you solved that 'invalid argument' error?08:57
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vlad_I sb-conf in -c -e -F08:58
vlad_(install clibrary, etc, fakeroot)08:58
vlad_but I installed the gcc toolchain from whatever repo I had in here08:58
vlad_I'm grabbing the toolchain deb from the url you gave me08:58
vlad_hm, yeah, I had the main scratchbox repo, that should be valid09:03
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vlad_but the gcc is showing that it still has a bug that was fixed in gcc 4.109:03
KotCzarnyi have installed gcc from debian.org09:03
vlad_and it's also showing weirdness, like that it doesn't follow the c++ standard for temporary object destructor order09:03
vlad_which is pretty broken09:03
RST38hGentlemen, does anyone have a maemo sdk installation where they can run stuff on a desktop machine and see messages from hildon-navigator?09:04
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vlad_ah! the compiler form the unofficial dir seems to work09:11
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vlad_.. maybe09:13
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lasantha_1978Dear All, Pls tell me the way of unstalling list fo package in a file using rpm command? Eg I ahev tried rpm -e --nodeps <package_list_file But it is not working. Pls help me09:19
KotCzarnyyou can try: for each in `cat package_list_file`; do rpm -e --nodeps $each; done09:20
vlad_rpm -e --nodeps `cat package_list_file` should work too09:21
KotCzarnyi don't know rpm :)09:21
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arachnistbtw, does anyone know some small, x86_64 linux livecd? something like systemrescuecd, but with x86_64 kernel09:25
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vlad_maybe I need to upgrade my entire scratchbox install09:31
vlad_what could go wrong?09:31
KotCzarnymismatched libs09:32
KotCzarnymy guess09:32
KotCzarnyi can't compile mc09:32
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KotCzarnythis time because of libglib2 barfing with the same error09:34
vlad_could be, though that doesn't make sense09:34
vlad_the ABI is still the same09:34
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KotCzarnythen why we had this error with libc earlier?09:35
vlad_ not sure09:35
vlad_maybe libc wasn't installed at all?09:35
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KotCzarnygcc wouldn't run then09:35
vlad_I should try going back to the old compiler, see if things still cause problems09:36
KotCzarnyi have luckily created new target09:36
vlad_yeah yeah :p09:36
zuhvlad_: I think it *should* work if you give sb-conf -c "the finger" (-f) ;)09:38
KotCzarnyqemu: Unsupported syscall: 33809:39
KotCzarnyi think i should use qemu-cvs09:41
Italodancexmms can play only with x-term?09:52
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ItalodanceKotCzarny but it hadn't any icon on my menu>?09:54
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Italodancei installed
Italodancei know but dud u installed?09:57
Italodancedid u installed it?09:57
KotCzarnyi compiled my own version09:57
KotCzarnyand read that thread09:57
KotCzarnythere are answers to your questions09:57
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Italodancejust what's ur version?09:58
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Italodanceok i called to the official nokia house in iran and told them about my problem they will help me and will say to the Nokia!10:22
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KotCzarnyi think i have found a way to bring back windows :>11:02
KotCzarnythose not-hildonized-and-minimized11:02
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qwerty12KotCzarny, I see you changed your signature at ITT lol :p :D :)11:41
Italodancehello qwerty12 morning :D11:41
qwerty12Hello Italodance :)11:41
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JaffaMorning, all12:04
* qwerty12 yawns12:04
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KotCzarnyanyone familiar with pygtk?12:06
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Italodanceumm n95  has wlan?14:08
Italodancedamn it14:08
glasswhats there to damn14:09
Italodancewhich nokia phones has wireless?14:09
glassquite many14:09
Italodancei thought only internet tablet for nokia14:09
glassthen you're so out of loop it's not even funny14:10
Italodancehehe yes14:10
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glasstablet is very different from other nokia products though14:10
glassit's not a phone, and the wlan phones run symbian14:10
Italodanceyes tablet is a pocket laptop14:11
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Italodancedo u have FBReader?14:16
glasson my 77014:17
Italodancecan it read pdf files?14:17
Italodancewell i couldn't read on my n800 !???14:17
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MishaSItalodance, fbreader does not support pdf14:32
pupnik_pdf is dog barf14:39
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pupnik_postscript around 1991 wasn't so bad14:40
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webustanyhi there14:41
webustanyhas someone here managed to use scratchbox on a x86_64 arch ?14:41
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keesjwebustany: via vmplayer yes14:49
keesjI did not try the other ways14:49
webustanykeesj: hmmm, thanks for the answer but unfortunately I'm running a very recent kernel, not supported by vmware yet14:49
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Jaffawebustany: use the normal instructions but do 'setarch i386 ./' at the start.15:04
JaffaIt then all works fine.15:04
webustanyJaffa: at the start of what ?15:04
JaffaThe install process of the Maemo SDK15:05
webustanyok, and that will work with a 64 bits kernel15:06
webustanyJaffa: thanks for the tip, I'm gonna try that15:06
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JaffaSee section 2.1 of, but instead of doing sudo ./ do sudo setarch i386 ./maemo-scratchbox-install_4.0.1.sh15:06
JaffaWorks for me with no 32-bit chroot15:06
webustanyJaffa: OK, you're using debian or ubuntu I assume15:07
JaffaUbuntu Feisty15:09
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webustanyJaffa: I'll need a changeroot anyway since I run fedora, but at least I know what chroot to install15:10
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JaffaInstall script's supposed to work on non-Debian-based systems AIUI15:16
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crashanddiehow I go about installing the maemo hackers repo in scratchbox ? I've added it to the /etc/apt/sources.list, but I don't have gpg installed, so it refuses to access it15:25
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webustanycrashanddie: isn't there an install file for it ?15:54
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webustanyhmm, maemo-launcher is constantly eating 100% of my cpu, I don't know why16:33
aquatixwebustany: depends on the program it launched16:34
aquatixyou can try getting more information by launching the terminal and run `top'16:34
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webustanyaquatix: hmm good guess, actually it's modest eating all my cpu16:35
webustanyah ah, now it's that stupid crawler :)16:36
webustanythough it's run with -c /home/user/MyDocs16:37
webustanyand -n16:37
crashanddieI'm starting a depression, it's on my to do list16:42
webustanycrashanddie: still on your repo problem ?16:44
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crashanddienot a repo problem16:45
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crashanddiedependency issues16:45
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webustanycrashanddie: can you explain more in detail ?16:46
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crashanddiewebustany, I'm trying to get commoncpp2 to compile with all its dependencies, but it needs libgnutls, which exists, but its dependencies aren't there, etc, etc16:47
webustanycrashanddie: I see... libgnutls is in some repo right ?16:48
webustanymaemo extras maybe...16:48
webustanydon't remember16:48
crashanddiefound it16:50
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crashanddieOk, so I managed to build commoncpp2, finally, perfectly working and everything :)17:03
webustanycrashanddie: you want to compile apps directly on your target ?17:03
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crashanddiewebustany, I'm working in scratchbox17:03
webustanycrashanddie: ah ok :)17:03
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crashanddieis it a 100% necessary to build both the x86 and armel versions of a package ?17:10
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johnxcrashanddie, not necessary at all17:13
crashanddiejohnx, because some dependencies aren't available in the x86 version ...17:14
johnxI've never built an x86 package17:14
johnx(in scratchbox)17:14
crashanddiefair enough then17:14
crashanddiejohnx, also, I've noticed a lot of packages have maemo in their names, is it a bad thing if I don't respect that ?17:15
johnxFrom what I understand, they just use it as a part of the version string to differentiate it from a non-maemo build of the same package17:16
johnxI'm not 100% sure on that though...17:17
crashanddiejohnx, yeah, but for example, libs are not maemo dependent, it's just compiled for armel, which is specific enough17:18
crashanddiewell, I'll see, if something goes awry, they'll scream I guess17:18
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janinot really related to the channel topic but is sc[1;3Chema required for writing into a new path in gconf tree ?17:39
crashanddiesc[1;3Chema ?17:39
johnxschema I assume?17:40
janiyep. schema17:41
janieg myapp.schemas file. wondering if its necessery or not.. few tutorials i went thru didnt mention anything either way - just how to read/write into gconf17:42
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crashanddiejohnx, do you now how long it usually takes before seeing the changes on the repo ? After upload I mean ?17:46
johnxno idea about uploading to the repo...17:46
johnxah, was your question about x86 packages with regards to for uploading something? Hmm, I'm not sure about that, then...17:48
johnxhope I haven't steered you wrong...17:48
crashanddiejohnx, lol17:49
crashanddiejohnx, yeah, sorta :P17:49
johnxsorry :(17:49
crashanddiewell, anyway, I'm not the first, tons of packages that are missing from x8617:50
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johnxthough if the deps aren't there to build the x86 package I'm not sure what you're supposed to do about it...17:50
crashanddielike I said, I'll start doing it if I ever get around it17:51
johnxoooh, midori for OS2008. neat. :D17:52
GeneralAntillesIt's a crapgasm compared to MicroB right now.17:52
johnxI have on test I really need to try though17:53
johnxand IMNSO, webkit has a lot more potential than gecko in the embedded space...17:54
dtahtbotaquatix: Error: "H" is not a valid command.17:55
aquatixdtahtbot: shut it ;)17:55
dtahtbotaquatix: Error: "shut" is not a valid command.17:55
aquatixstupid bot :)17:55
johnxyou shore showed it though... :D17:55
GeneralAntillesProbably, but potential takes work.17:56
Navijohnx, the problem with microb was that it lacks NIT-specific optimizations17:56
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aquatixNavi: NIT?17:57
Naviwhen I was last running browser benches, the nightly xulrunner ran better than webkit did17:57
johnxCorrect me if I'm wrong, but isn't webkit smaller then gecko to begin with?17:57
* Jaffa still gets impressed with some of the features on Mobile Safari to take advantage of zooming in with knowledge of the page's semantic structure.17:57
JaffaLess of a need on 800x480, admittedly17:58
NaviGecko had old memory issues to deal with; don't know if they're still around17:58
Naviaquatix, nokia internet tablet17:58
aquatixoh duh :)17:58
keesjI dislike old memories17:59
johnxkeesj, let me tell you about our amnesia program then, for three easy payments of...17:59
johnxGeneralAntilles, ah, curiosity satisfied. Google maps "feels" faster to me under midori (or epiphany-webkit) than microb already17:59
MangoFusionthe best mobile browser i have used so far is webkit on my n95. in second place is microb ;)18:00
Naviboth the nightly xulrunner and the current libwebkit in the repos (which happen to be a bit out of date) are snappy on the N8X0 though18:00
GeneralAntillesThe Gecko build in MicroB is old.18:00
GeneralAntillesHopefully Diablo will rectify thatt.18:00
keesjwasn't opera a little faster on the n800?18:01
Navijohnx, in terms of script execution speed, xulrunner raped the unoptimized webkit javascript core.18:01
GeneralAntillesA little without the CPU boost, but it didn't work with anything.18:01
johnxkeesj, yes. some people liked it, others like microb better.18:01
johnxit all comes down to what sites you visit and what you value in a mobile browser18:02
keesjlike is an other thing :p . I like the microbs because they are open source.18:02
* keesj was talking aboud speed18:02
aquatixmicrobes surf nicely18:02
jottkeesj: then give me the source of tablet-browser-ui :P18:02
Navimicrob has horrible performance.18:03
johnxactually, that's the other reason I'm excited to see a hildonized midori. :D18:03
jottah hildonized.. compiled midori a while back and it was quite unusable ...18:04
Navijohnx, I want to see alp and co. do a few more optimizations (especially to the javascript core) first18:04
johnxNavi, definitely, but the fact that it works so well already makes me very happy18:04
NaviNot as well as xulrunner :)18:05
johnxwhich is hildonized and launching nicely from a menu? :P18:05
NaviNo, but neither is libwebkit18:05
GeneralAntillesWhy the hell did they close tablet-browser, anyway?18:05
NaviGeneralAntilles, fear18:05
jottGeneralAntilles: nokias new policy to interact better with the oss community :P18:06
Navixulrunner's script execution speed was half the time of webkit's, which was a fourth of the time of microb's18:06
johnxno small wonder google maps is sooo painfully slow in microb18:07
NaviStill doesn't get near the times of desktops, but I don't expect that18:08
johnxyeah, but it's the difference between unusable and usable18:08
jotthehe well ff3/webkit on n8x0 could beat ff2 on the desktop :P18:08
aquatixi thought microb already used the ff3 engine? [gecko 1.9]18:09
jottaquatix: very old snapshot18:09
aquatixyeah, i noticed18:09
jottmissing lots of optimization :)18:09
aquatixFx3 beta 4 on my laptop zips18:09
pupnikreal hacker18:09
pupnikAn interesting bit of trivia about Wozniak's Integer BASIC was that he never had an assembly language source file for it. He wrote it in machine language, assembling it by hand on paper:18:09
jotthmm firefox 3 still lacks rendering speed and feels sluggish here - js perfomance is nice though ;)18:10
crashanddieI'd love to have gmail being snappy18:10
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crashanddieyeah well I've never been a big fan of email clients18:11
crashanddieI might be (and probably am) plain wrong, but I always have this sense of limitation18:11
johnxah that reminds me: is the search in modest working for anyone or should I file a bug?18:11
crashanddieI want me email to be on the laptop I work on, as well as the desktop I'm going to, as well as my IT18:12
crashanddieI don't want to have to wait for it to come in, or be stuck on one device that stole it from the others, etc18:12
aquatixah, speaking of Modest, does any of you know why it almost never marks my email as `read' when i have read it from imap?18:12
crashanddieIMAP is plenty slow18:12
aquatiximap is nice18:13
johnxmodest has gotten *a lot* faster18:13
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GeneralAntillesSearch doesn't seem to do anything for me, johnx.18:13
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles, do you use modest with gmail ?18:14
NaviI can't find the phone with my spare N800 battery in it18:14
johnxI use modest with gmail/imap18:14
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crashanddieNavi, that's not your spare N800 battery, that's the battery of your phone you're using because your n800 one ran out :P18:14
johnxplenty fast, and marks things read18:14
Navicrashanddie, I dont use that phone18:14
crashanddieok, lemme give it a try18:15
keesjinteresting , /me just dicovered that the "nokia" serial was documented
NaviIt's just in there 'cuz I need it to charge the battery18:15
keesjI wonder where to get some kind of adapter18:15
aquatixjohnx: hm, i use the weekly's, but it doesn't generally mark email read on my imaps server18:16
GeneralAntilleskeesj, you'd have to build one.18:16
johnxall I can say is that it "works for me"18:16
GeneralAntillesOr break into a service center and steal one.18:16
aquatixjohnx: ok :)18:16
* aquatix wil remove the account and re-add it18:16
keesjI will go for the easy sollution18:16
GeneralAntillesBreaking in and stealing one? :P18:16
keesjoff course18:17
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keesjis should have studied fine mechanics like my parents would have liked, instead I wanted to study AI and ended up in IT18:19
crashanddiemy parents wanted me to be a doctor, or a lawyer18:20
crashanddieoh the shame18:20
GeneralAntillesInstead you burned up like a piggy or a bbq?18:20
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Instead you burned up like a piggy on a bbq?18:20
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crashanddieman maemo-hackers is waaay too slow18:21
crashanddiethey should up their simultaneous connections by a bunch, its not the load that's killing 'em, it's the small queue18:21
GeneralAntillesDamnit, that song is stuck in my head now and I have to go watch that movie again. <_<18:22
crashanddiewhich song ? Which movie ?18:22
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GeneralAntillesBlame Canada18:23
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GeneralAntillesSouth Park: The Movie18:23
GeneralAntillesGreatest musical ever.18:23
crashanddieafter Sweeney Todd18:25
glassrocky horror picture show is better than southpark at least though18:26
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lcuksouth parks wins just by pure classics as La Resistance or I Can Change, and who could forget uncle fucker18:32
GeneralAntillesSatan singing. . . .18:32
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crashanddiewell uncle fucker is probably my least favorite one18:32
GeneralAntillesI love the scene with Cartman and the megaphone.18:33
GeneralAntillesIt's so catchy.18:33
crashanddiethe dying giraffe is classic though18:33
glasslcuk: better songs, but not a better musical/movie18:33
lcuksouth park is a decent movie, rocky horror is an experience18:34
lcukhmm i just had an email with a single word: "remove"18:35
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lcuki wonder who thinks im a bot18:35
GeneralAntillesYou aren't?18:37
aquatixdang, i thought alice bot had evolved18:37
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NaviAll of my emails are titled and worded to intentionally be caught by spam filters18:47
johnxis it working?18:47
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johnxI tried that when I was setting up spamassassin the last time, but it could tell I wasn't actually advertising something...somehow18:48
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lcukits ok, i get spam sent from myself every day at work, its most disconcerting and i dont wanna add myself to the spam filter18:53
lcuk<<< FAIL18:53
johnxI guess I need to work on my pitch or something before I'm good enough to be considered spam...18:54
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lcukor maybe we can coat you in jelly and push you into a tin18:55
johnxI think I'll have to pass on that one...18:57
GeneralAntillesYou sure? It's great fun.18:57
johnxnah, it's cool. you guys go ahead. ::runs::18:57
aquatixlcuk: send a mail to the address with only this as body:18:58
lcukeicar :D18:58
lcukoooh no, this is different18:59
aquatixspamassassin test thingee18:59
crashanddiesay, how come in the update section of application manager I always see "map", but am never able to update it ?19:00
GeneralAntillesUninstall it then reinstall it.19:01
wom-same here :)19:01
lcuklikely you have broken repo list and your device tried getting dependencies from odd places19:01
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it's been true since day one.19:01
GeneralAntillesUpdate is broken somehow.19:01
lcukahhh, so even people with default repo have this problem?19:01
GeneralAntillesBut uninstall/reinstall or red pill will fix it.19:01
aquatixuninstall/reinstall worked here indeed, fyi ;)19:02
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lcukholy crap
t_s_oouch. i guess thats a good reason for not handing over a flying car to everyone...19:09
crashanddiejohnx, installed modest, selected gmail imap account, keeps telling me username or password incorrect, tried both "crashanddie" and "" for usernames, refuses both19:09
MangoFusionworked fine for me, how odd =/19:10
GeneralAntillesIMAP enabled in the gmail control panel?19:10
t_s_oso, any ideas of the finger keyboard sensory system, or whatever, is tuneable somehow?19:10
GeneralAntillesNo, just use center dpad.19:10
johnxmidori copes with heavy sites like engadget so much better than microb...19:11
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crashanddieso, I admit19:16
crashanddieimap is plenty fast with modest19:16
crashanddieclaws sucks, thus19:16
johnxit used to be not that quick in fact for quite a while I was worried we were stuck with the crappy status quo WRT no good email clients on the n8x019:16
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crashanddiedoes modest support pgp ?19:17
raflhow to resize columns in a gtk treeview widget on maemo? for some reason the application manager displays package names in a very small column which makes it pretty unusable as only the first few characters are shown.19:17
crashanddiejohnx, do the email headers get saved on the IT ?19:18
crashanddiejohnx, as in, will it need to do the big update everytime again ?19:19
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johnxI *think* they're saved. and it seems like at least a couple of recent messages are cached as well19:19
johnxI have no idea what the inclusion policy for that cache is though...19:19
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lcukrefl, ive noticed that as well and the annoying thing is the refresh after you click to see the rest and then close19:23
GeneralAntilleslcuk, rafl, that is fixed in SVN, should be in Diablo.19:27
lcuki expected things like this to change which is why i am looking foreward to it :)19:27
raflGeneralAntilles: any way to work it around for now?19:28
GeneralAntillesCompile and install the latest svn.19:28
JaffaGeneralAntilles: thank god; the App Mgr has so many niggles with its overeager refreeshing of the GUI19:28
GeneralAntillesI'm hoping they don't delay the Diablo release after the announcement like they did with OS200819:34
GeneralAntilleser, Chinook.19:34
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johnxI'm not holding my breath...19:38
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: indeed19:40
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user__i just went to youtube and got a message that i have javascript turned off or an old version of flash payer, anyone else getting this?20:52
shackanuser__: is the flash component in the browser loaded?20:53
shackanlower right corner -> magnifying glass icon -> components20:54
lcuki noticed earlier today flash player on a site was showing up with shockwave icon instead of flash icon as it normally does.20:54
lcukthat was on windows with firefox/flashblock20:54
user__how do i check that?  i never unloaded it..20:54
lcukno, what i mean is normally youtube shows up as a blocked flash window.  today it displayed as a blocked shockwave window20:55
user__yep, it's loaded20:55
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Italodancema canola 2 can't read my photos at my mmc2 gallery folder what can i do?20:55
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lcuksit back and wait for the end of the world?20:56
lcuknot sure, have you looked on canola site to see if others have noticed a problem20:56
user__and strangely, tried to view my galleries in http20:57
user__and strangely, tried to view my galleries in and they now don't show's heavy on javascript..20:57
Italodanceso what can i do?20:57
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lcukhave a look here20:59
lcuki dont use the program myself and dont know if others will have seen it20:59
Italodancealso my canola 2 Dedicated to my Mplayer! i want for Media Player!??? what can i do?20:59
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KotCzarnylcuk: are you familiar with pygtk? or python?21:00
lcukive got a rusty enough understanding to work with it21:00
KotCzarnycan you help me with a (simple?) script?21:00
lcuksure ill take a look21:01
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user__i restarted browser, now youtube works..21:03
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f_mohris there a desktop linux tool to access/create meamo mappers map gdbm files?22:20
KotCzarnyit's a simple sqlite3 db22:20
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crashanddiewake up people !22:36
KotCzarnywhat for?22:36
crashanddiedunno :)22:36
* KotCzarny goes back where he was22:36
crashanddiebed ?22:37
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Proteouswake up sheeple22:47
ProteousOS2008 is an inside job22:47
NaviUR RITE22:48
NaviProteous, how do I wake up?!22:48
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GeneralAntillesHahaha. omg, Proteous.22:50
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hrw~curse badly xkb22:54
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, badly xkb !22:54
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hrwI wonder why xkb is so fscked by design.22:58
hrwor rather why maemo devs fscked n810 keymaps so much22:58
Robot101xkb is fucked by sgi and metroworks22:59
KotCzarnysgi is dead baby22:59
hrwto make working keymap you need to define 80% of keys becase base configuration defines only Fkeys, cursors and few keys22:59
hrw~kill maemo22:59
* infobot shoots a ionized pseudomeson gun at maemo22:59
Robot101the maemo guy is the xkb upstream maintainer, and did a hell of a lot of work to fix it23:00
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hrwRobot101: maybe he is. but it is not his fault that i18n on maemo platform not exists at all23:00
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hrwthose parts which exists were designed by ....23:00
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pupnikxkb? xkb?23:07
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pupnikhrw you can fix  xkbd virtual keyboard for OS2008?23:08
pupnikor is there a better alternative?23:08
hrwpupnik: I curse n810 keymaps23:09
KotCzarnyi'll fix xkbd one day23:09
KotCzarnyi promise23:09
KotCzarnyright now i'm working on iconxbox23:09
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hrwpupnik: I only use maemo - rather do not plan to develop apps for it.23:10
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KotCzarnyto catch those 'invisible' windows23:10
KotCzarnyand have an option to bring them back23:10
hrwpupnik: this platform is too sick for me and level of 'vendor support' makes it sick even more23:10
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pupnikhrw any less sick handheld platforms come to mind?23:15
vlad_KotCzarny: got it working btw, I'll write up instructions shortly23:15
KotCzarnyvlad: great :)23:15
vlad_had to rebuild glib with the new compiler23:15
KotCzarnyi have thought about it23:15
KotCzarnybut it means wholse os will need to be rebuilt23:16
KotCzarnyand apt-get upgrade will wreak havoc :>23:16
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hrwpupnik: hard to tell - it was long time since I used pda for longer time23:16
vlad_KotCzarny: well.. I haven't tested on the device yet23:17
vlad_but I think it's a qemu problem, and that binaries will run fine23:17
vlad_only other thing I noticed is that I think I installed the scratchbox1 compiler, not sb223:17
KotCzarnyvlad: i'm a pessimist :)23:17
vlad_(scratchbox-toolchain-arm-linux-cs2007q3-51sb1 instead of scratchbox-toolchain-arm-linux-cs2007q3-51)23:18
KotCzarnyi have tried both23:18
KotCzarnyi think23:18
vlad_the sb1 seems to be working fine, but I wonder if that's bad in some way23:18
hrwbye all23:19
KotCzarnyhow to tell which sbox i have?23:19
* hrw finally fixed Polish n810 hw keymap again23:19
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eichimy N800 LED does not stop flashing ;D what can i do?23:22
KotCzarnyor just turn notifiers in control panels23:23
KotCzarnymaybe you have new mail or something23:24
Italodancehow can default my canola from mplayer to media player ?23:26
GeneralAntilleseichi, there are settings in the Control Panel under Backlight.23:30
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GeneralAntillesItalodance, there's a thread or two on the subject in the Canola forum on ITT.23:30
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GeneralAntillesOh, unless you happened to have stumbled on the little LED bug, eichi. In which case, a restart will solve it.23:33
eichiclaws-mail did the flashing23:34
eichii closed claws-mail now23:34
eichirestart is for adding new hardware ;)23:35
KotCzarnyor upgrading libc23:35
KotCzarnyor kernel23:35
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KotCzarnyor as a quick and dirty 'boss key' feature23:36
pat__hi, how do i gain root on maemo? the article with installing ssh seeems to be out of date since the link to dropbear is dead...23:36
KotCzarnywhy do you need dropbear?23:36
eichipat__, install easyroot23:36
GeneralAntillesInstally easyroot23:36
KotCzarnyinstall ssh-server23:36
eichithen type root23:37
GeneralAntillesType "root" in xterm23:37
KotCzarnyor openssh-server23:37
KotCzarnyor ssh metapackage23:37
KotCzarnythat will install client and server23:37
KotCzarnyapt-get install openssh23:38
pat__now client and ssh server or easyroot? on maemo os 07 i've already installed sshd but after that, my n800 box didn't start anymore.. that's why I've never installed it again...23:39
GeneralAntillesOpenSSH is incredibly useful.23:40
GeneralAntilleseasyroot is good for local root shell.23:40
GeneralAntillesThousands of people use OpenSSH without trouble.23:40
pat__hmm okay... I try it once again... :)23:43
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pupniktoo bad Ångström looks kinda ... semi inactive23:46
Italodancehow can edit a text file on n800? wel for internal card?23:49
Italodancehello unique31123:49
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konttorihey, anyone of you guys been creating home applets using python?23:58
* KotCzarny shrugs23:58
KotCzarnyi'm trying to learn it :)23:58
konttoriIt seems quite easy stuff really23:59
konttoriAnd looks like it could be really powerful indeed.23:59
KotCzarnyif you know python and gtk already..23:59
konttoriYeah, well, I'd recommend doing the applets with cairo23:59

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