IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-02-24

MangoFusionemphasis on the word hope00:00
MangoFusionnot so much emphasis on the word reality00:00
MangoFusion;)00:00
MangoFusion(in any case merely speculation)00:00
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ssvbuff, finally done: https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/cx3110x-devel/2008-February/000019.html00:07
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ssvbis there still anybody using Nokia 770 and interested in faster wifi?00:08
hrwonly on 770?00:08
ProteousI didn't know it was slow00:09
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ssvbhrw: for now, yes00:10
ssvbProteous: how fast is it for you?00:10
hrwssvb: does it affect 802.11g speed?00:10
Proteousfast enough that I never wondered how fast it is00:10
Proteousheh00:10
* hrw plans to move to 802.11g soon00:10
ProteousI only have the stock amount of storage, which means, a very small amount, so I consume most of my media via streaming00:11
Proteousand that seems to work fine for me00:11
Proteousas far as speed wise00:11
hrwssvb: my 770 spend most time powered off now00:12
ssvbhrw: my 770 is always with me (mostly used as a book reader) and N800 is used just as a device for testing various experiments :)00:13
ssvbhrw: it is nice to have 128MB of RAM, useful for natively compiling code00:14
hrwssvb: btw - thats speedup for cx3110 user compilable parts or some kind of new driver?00:14
ssvbhrw: it is just slightly better efficiency of communication omap<->wlan chip over spi bus00:16
hrwthx00:16
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ssvbhrw: this open source part is a glue between a binary driver running on the device and a binary firmware running on wlan chip00:16
ssvbhrw: we don't have much control here00:17
hrwI know00:17
elbwow, a 50%+ improvement in goodput is pretty significant00:17
hrwssvb: someone tested does it gives such speedup also on 802.11g net?00:17
hrwiirc cx3110 is b/g cip00:18
hrwchip00:18
ssvbhrw: having 1.3 megabytes per second is already 802.11g speed that is unreachable for 802.11b afaik, so I guess it's g00:19
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elbyes, that's more than twice as fast as 802.11b can accomplish00:19
ssvbhrw: the best thing about it is that it is faster than USB 1.x :)00:20
elb(5.5Mbps is the best you can get out of b, which is somewhere around 400kB/sec TCP transfer)00:20
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Proteoushttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11#Summary00:25
elbhah that table is so typically wikipedia00:28
elbwhat a pile of junk00:28
Proteoushow so?00:29
jottelb: make it better ;)00:29
elbjott: I don't waste my time with wikipedia00:29
Proteousit seems pretty close to what I get00:29
elbProteous: for example, their "throughput" and "data rate (max)" entries are obviously measuring two different things, but are not marked as such00:29
* jott reboots again to test his kernel patch00:30
ProteousI don't have any trouble understanding the chart...00:30
elbthen either you don't understand what's wrong with it, or you're making assumptions that are not stated00:31
elblook at throughput; what kind of throughput are they talking about?00:31
elband why is it clearly a simplex value, whereas max data rate is duplex?00:31
jotti guess typ = typical and max = specified maximum00:32
elbyes, if you *already know* the properties of 802.11, it will affirm what you already know; but if you *don't* know them, it's not useful00:32
elbjott: see, you were led to an incorrect conclusion by the table00:32
jott:)00:32
elbor rather, yes, that is correct, but it is *not* the case that you can typically only get less than half the stated data rate00:33
Proteouseven to the layman, the Max number is what you are going to see on the box, the Typ number is the transfer speed that you will probably see in your OS when you are moving a file00:33
elbProteous: but as an encyclopedia entry, it's junk00:33
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ProteousI find it usefull00:34
elbI see00:34
elbwell, you might find it more useful to know that on any low-latency shared-access broadcast medium like Ethernet, TCP is only going to get 70-80% maximum bitrate in goodput00:35
elbthen you can throw that entire piece of junk table away00:35
elband as a bonus, you can expand it to dozens of network technologies that aren't 802.11 :-P00:35
^Jsn^Hey has anyone set up a DUN connection between the n810 and a sony ericsson w810i?00:36
Proteoussure, you can find that info in the TCP page00:36
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^Jsn^Proteous: are you talking to me?00:37
Proteousheh, no00:37
Proteousthe maemo wiki says that the w800i works00:38
NaviAnyone know how to remove a song/clear the playlist in mmpc?00:39
Proteousreflash?00:39
Navi>_>00:39
^Jsn^where can i find the maemo wiki?00:40
elbmaemo.org00:40
Proteoushttp:maemo.org/community/wiki/BluetoothDUN/00:40
Proteouser00:41
Proteoushttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/BluetoothDUN/00:41
ProteousI remember it being somewhat annoyning to try to find the bluetooth dun page using the wiki search00:41
Navinevermind, got it00:42
^Jsn^thanks00:43
hrwssvb: for future: use iperf for testing speed00:45
hrwon n810 here I have 3.14 Mbit/s00:46
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elbwget is a fine estimator for relative bandwidth at 802.11 speeds00:47
hrwiperf do not need to use any file to fetch ;D00:48
NaviGah00:48
^Jsn^Proteous:  Thanks alot for that link!  Do you know of a tutorial on setting up a dun via bluetooth?00:48
NaviI can't remove the battery >_>00:48
NaviHow do you remove it?00:48
hrwbut it also not present in maemo repos (which is normal for lot of soft)00:48
hrwNavi: which tablet?00:48
NaviN80000:48
NaviI've been clawing at the battery, haven't been able to get it out00:48
ProteousI would suggest dropping the claw and just using your fingers00:49
Navihar har00:49
ssvbhrw: thanks, I'll try it now00:49
hrwNavi: no idea then - only 770 and n810 here00:49
NaviHeh00:49
elbit falls directly out of the 81000:49
elbin fact, much more easily than I would wish00:49
NaviThis is harder than I would wish >_>00:50
lcuk_3elb, you also forgot to mention the tin foil battery cover00:51
elbI have no such cover00:52
NaviHeh00:52
elbunless you mean the regular metal cover, which seems fine to me00:52
NaviI hit it against my hand a few times and it popped out00:52
lcuk_3on my 810 it seems really flimsy and rattles when its in00:53
elbreally?00:53
elbI can move the cover around, but it doesn't rattle00:53
elbthe battery rattles :-P00:53
elbin fact, I would say the n810 casing is one o fthe higher quality electronics casings I own00:54
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benno2hi, question, does voice based gps navigation for n800 + bluetooth gps receiver work ? assuming one buys the commercial navigation from nokia00:55
lcuk_3wow, i dont think so - im used to nokias being a really nice fit, but in a blindfold test i doubt i would get that it was nokia00:55
benno2is all of europe covered ?00:55
^Jsn^does anyone know if it is possible to write an email in the n810 and when u press send, it uses a bluetooth Dial up networking profile to send the email threw your phone?00:56
elblcuk_3: interesting00:56
elblcuk_3: I wonder if your cover is damaged somehow00:56
lcuk_3doesnt appear to be, it just doesnt feel "right"00:57
elbit's certainly a much better plan than my wife's nokia phone00:57
elbwhich is a piece of JUNK00:57
lcuk_3maybe a diff manufacturing run/factory00:57
elbmine snaps in pretty tight00:57
ssvbhrw: iperf shows 8.46 Mbits/sec00:57
elbit will wiggle a little with my fingers, but the tension of the latching bar keeps it pretty tight00:57
Proteous^Jsn^: if you can get online through a DUN with your phone then that should work00:57
lcuk_3top part also creaks if i press in the middle of it00:57
Proteous^Jsn^: as far as setting up DUN, I only have a 770, so my experience might not be helpfull00:58
lcuk_3infact, doing a shake test by holding the  edges (the most dangerous thing i have tried) it sounds like a tamborene00:58
Proteouscould be worse, could sound like a tuba00:58
elbinteresting00:58
elbmine rattles when the battery is in, but is nearly silent otherwise00:59
^Jsn^yeah but I was wondering if there was an option in the mail program on the n810 to send threw a dun connection00:59
lcuk_3the slider is good and secure though00:59
lcuk_3lol @ tuba00:59
elbI should say, battery and stylus -- the stylus rattles a bit, too00:59
hrw^Jsn^: apps should not care about type of net connection00:59
jku^Jsn^, dun is just another connection, right? apps don't care about that00:59
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Proteous^Jsn^: when you set up a DUN connection it shows up in the list that appears when you look for a new connection01:00
Proteous^Jsn^: so you can't connect to with DUN and wifi at the same time01:00
^Jsn^ok. I haven't tried it yet01:00
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Proteous^Jsn^: er, "connect with DUN"01:00
lcuk_3lol elb, my stylus is rock solid - though i dont like the fact its not a round stylus, i hate having to orient it before slipping it in01:01
^Jsn^thanks01:01
elblcuk_3: yeah, that was nice about the palm stylus on my IIIx -- pretty much no matter how you put it in, it spun itself into the right position and lockedi nto place01:01
^Jsn^does anyone know if there is a video chatting app that works with the n810?  Every website that i've seen says that skype doesn't support video chat yet01:01
Stskeepsafaik google talk is included which runs with it? :P01:02
Proteous^Jsn^: basicly, turn on bluetooth on your phone, make sure you phone is set to be discoverable/visable, then on your nokia Goto 'Menu → Tools → Control Panel → Bluetooth → Devices → New' and see if your phone shows up01:02
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^Jsn^ok01:03
^Jsn^Stskeeps:  Have u tried using the webcam with google talk?01:03
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jeff1f^Jsn^ the built in messaging app should work01:07
ssvbhrw: do you know any useful tool for stress testing network to verify that it works properly under high load?01:07
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derfssvb: bittorrent01:09
Proteouslol01:09
hrwssvb: nothing comes to mind01:09
jotthping?01:10
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hrwhm. my AP (wrt54gs) give 3.20-3.50Mbps ;(01:10
hrw4.43 max01:11
jkussvb, hammerhead01:12
jkuit's for testing webservers, but I guess should work...01:13
jkus/should/could/01:13
infobotjku meant: it's for testing webservers, but I guess could work...01:13
ssvbthanks to everyone, I'l check these tools01:14
ssvbhrw: 4.36 Mbits/sec with N800 here too01:18
hrwtime to boot bcm4306 and test01:19
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^Jsn^does anyone know of any good proxy websites for bypassing local blocked websites?01:21
ssvbhrw: it does not depend on access point/router, the limitation is in N800/N810 wlan driver01:21
hrwI want to check how fast it goes with other wifi01:23
hrw19.8 Mbps with other card01:24
ssvbhrw: you can try your Nokia 770 with a patched wlan driver ;)01:25
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hrwssvb: first would have to charge it ;D01:26
hrwand I do not have armv5te iperf binary handy01:27
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Veggenwhat's the status of java on n8x0 nowadays?01:33
Veggenwas wondering about trying to get the java citrix client to work...?01:33
jottVeggen: i guess it might be worth a try using the unstable jalimo packages01:34
Veggenmm, will try.01:35
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Veggencitrix is part of our work vpn solution. would be sort of nice, although I don't imagine it'll be good enough to be tempting as a work solution ;) just have to see if it's doable, though.01:36
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benno2question: does the downloadable maps of the n800 os2008 map appllication contain one way street informations ?01:58
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benno2answering to my own question I just checked the free maps of the maps app on the n800 and I see the one way signs02:01
benno2but does the free app have routing capabilities ?02:01
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onionbenno2: you need to pay to get routing02:04
benno2onion: yes I've read about it. basically an n800 + gps receiver can run the same software as the n810 ?02:05
onionbenno2: should do it yes02:05
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benno2onion: I will probably buy it. 30E pro year isn't that much as long as the maps are of good quality and the system works well. I've seen the tabletpc youtube video and it seems to work fine.02:06
benno2or is there any free app that can route ?02:06
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Tama^2meamo mapper can route02:07
Tama^2maps in Maps are not veeery reliable02:08
benno2but what are the drawbacks ?02:08
benno2of maemo mapper02:08
benno2I mean what is the advantage of wayfinder vs maemo mapper ?02:08
Tama^2drawbacks: clumsy UI02:08
Tama^2and routes have to be downloaded02:09
benno2does maemo mapper offer voice guided navigation ?02:09
Tama^2yes it does02:09
benno2in what sense routes have to be downloaded ? does it use google maps to compute routes ?02:09
onionTama^2: google does the routing02:10
Tama^2I know02:10
Tama^2but you have to be online02:10
Tama^2when you plan the route02:10
benno2so basically without a cellular internet connection  you can forget to plan routes just in time. am I right ?02:10
onionmapper will have routing some day02:10
benno2ok now I see the advantage of using wayfinder02:10
Tama^2or a free wifi02:10
Tama^2wayfinder will route you, but when you are outide the main roads it's probably going to route you into a lake02:11
Tama^2xD02:11
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Tama^2I checked two places I knew on wayfinder maps:02:11
Tama^21) a 50 km bay was erased and was indicated as land02:12
Tama^22) directions to go somewhere took me through a lake02:13
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pupnikmmm olives02:20
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jeff1fEvery mapping company seems to have some problems02:26
jeff1fThey should give the software out for free if you're willing to record the roads!02:27
GeneralAntillesPfft02:28
GeneralAntillesLike the recordings from some random jerkoff are gonna be trustworthy.02:29
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jgombosAnyone there.. out of 261 users?03:24
GeneralAntillesShh. . . .03:25
GeneralAntillesWe're sleeping.03:25
jgombosnice.. I wasn't sure I got in here alright03:25
jgombosHaven't been in IRC for 10 yrs03:25
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jgombosR U a bot?  I should have known...03:26
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briandi'm a bot.03:28
briandbut then, I'm not "there", I'm "here", so...03:28
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^Jsn^whats up03:37
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^Jsn^does anyone have any favorite "must have" apps on their n8x0?03:40
jgombosi just got the thing a week or so ago03:41
jgombosSo I haven't used it for anything but web so far.. still using a Palm for everything03:41
briandi just got mine yesterday.  lovin' it03:41
^Jsn^yeah mine's in the mail.  Can't believe it takes Fedex 6 days to get it from Ca to FL!03:41
jgomboswhat version03:42
briandi find it just short of incredible that my mythtv box shows up in the 'shared media' folders in the file manager.. amazing.  I guess I need to get to work on setting up audio/video streaming from that box, now...03:42
^Jsn^Tryin to get everything together so i'll be ready when it gets here03:42
elb^Jsn^: FBReader and gpe-calendar03:42
^Jsn^n81003:42
Proteousgoing through that panama canal takes a while03:42
jgomboslol03:42
* briand has an n80003:42
^Jsn^lol03:42
^Jsn^briand: mythtv is like slingbox right?03:43
Proteousno03:43
briandoh, no...03:43
Proteousmore like a tivo03:43
briandit's like a Tivo after a couple years of steroids.03:43
Proteouson steroids03:43
Proteouslol03:43
briandjinx!03:43
Proteousdoh03:43
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jgombosy did you choose the n810?03:44
Proteouswell, it's only like a tivo if you have 1 or more tuner cards in it03:44
briand^Jsn^: imagine a build-your-own tivo like device, that runs on linux...03:44
jgombosbut it's better than tivo.. commercials can be cut out automatically03:44
briandProteous: do you have a mythtv box as well?03:44
GeneralAntillesLot of damn FL tablet users.03:44
* briand is in the capital of FL03:44
* GeneralAntilles is too.03:45
* GeneralAntilles hides.03:45
elbbriand: my mythtv box shows up, but streaming doesn't work03:45
briandelb: exactly.  i think something needs to be set up on the myth box.  the media lists show up because of uPnP03:45
jgombosmythtv is a pain in the ass to setup03:45
elbyeah, I dunno03:45
jgombosI gave up on it when I tried like 3 yrs ago03:45
Proteousno, but I do have a media server though, it is running on windows and uses tversity to transcode and stream to my 770 and I use samba to mount it on my apple TV to watch/listen to media03:45
elbI poked at it briefly and decided life isn't long enough03:45
elbjgombos: it's not too bad if all you want to do is use it as a tivo-type replacement03:46
^Jsn^I chose the 810 for the keyboard03:46
elbjgombos: if you want to use all its other features and plugins ... it's a right punk03:46
Proteousand bittorent with RSS feed downloads instead of a TV tuner :P03:46
^Jsn^Defnintely need the keyboard03:46
^Jsn^definitely03:46
jgombosha, that's why i didn't choose the n81003:46
jgomboscan't stand keyboards on these things03:46
jgombosgrafitti is quicker03:46
* ^Jsn^ is in navarre03:47
ProteousI wish my 770 had a keyboard, I use ssh/irssi/mutt a lot03:47
elbthe n810 is the best of keyboard and no keyboard worlds -- folded up, it's still smaller than the n800 ;-)03:47
elbof course, that's price delta aside03:47
jgomboswow!  mutt is ported to maemo?  nice!03:47
Proteousno03:47
Proteousmutt is running on a remote box that I ssh into03:47
Proteousalthough I"m sure you could easily compile mutt for the nokia03:48
jgombosah03:48
^Jsn^what is mutt?03:48
jgombosMUA03:48
Proteousthe tough part would be setting up everything else so you could use mutt03:48
Proteouslol03:48
elbyeah, I would foresee no problems with mutt03:48
elbexcept that osso-xterm is complete butt ;-)03:48
Proteousheh03:48
jgombosyeah, i'm scared.. not gonna try mutt03:48
^Jsn^what is mutt?03:49
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jgombosmail user agent03:49
Proteousa terminal based mail client03:49
jgombosa mail client.. pure text03:49
^Jsn^whats wrong with the included mail client?03:49
jgomboshave no idea.. haven't tried it03:49
Proteousmy instance of mutt is running on a remote server03:49
elbif you'd ever used mutt, you would instead be asking "how do people use any of those other mail clients?"  ;-)03:50
jgombosdoes the bundled one support crypto?03:50
ProteousI can get at it anywhere I can get a ssh connection, so it is convienent03:50
^Jsn^Proteous: what did you mean by "and bittorent with RSS feed downloads instead of a TV tuner"03:50
chronographerHi all, I am thinking of purchasing a nokia tablet, I wonder if anyone can share information on surveying software for maemo, software for things like coordinate geometry, resections, simple traverse calculations and least squares adjustment???03:50
briandhmm.  myth is having no problem streaming the (very few) files in my "videos" directory there...03:50
jgomboswell, I don't think I would want mutt on a portable device03:50
jgombosfat fingering keys for every action can't be efficient03:51
ProteousI have a bittorrent client on my media server that periodicly downloads RSS feeds from a few torrent trackers, parses them for torrents I want and starts downloading them03:51
elbbriand: interesting ... mine would stream neither audio files nor TV recordings03:51
ProteousI have it set up to download some TV shows that I like03:51
^Jsn^oh thats cool03:51
elbit always says something like "specified file could not be opened", or "server could not be contacted", or some such03:51
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jgomboswhat do you folks do for internet connectivity?03:52
jgombosthat is.. on the go03:52
GeneralAntilles3g through AT&T03:52
briandelb: mine wont stream my (huge!) mp3 collection, or any of the recordings (647, at present)... but I have a couple mtv videos in the video module from when I was testing some dev work on the box... they're streaming just fine!03:52
jgombostethering using pdanet or the like?03:52
GeneralAntillesMediaMAX 200, actually. :S03:53
jgomboswhat speeds do you get?03:53
^Jsn^anyone tried Orb on the tablet?03:53
jgombosI've heard tethering slows people down03:53
GeneralAntilles~60KB/sec03:53
briandI ran a script to hack GeneralAntilles' WPA2-encrypted SSID, so I usually just follow him around town and stay connected constantly.03:53
GeneralAntilles~350KB/sec on the phone.03:53
jgombosI'm running a portable hotspot.. but it costs me $50 usd/ month03:53
GeneralAntillesDUN is a little inefficient.03:54
elbbriand: interesting03:54
* briand smiles.03:54
GeneralAntillesohshi-03:54
elbbriand: I don't have any videos, I should try sticking some on it03:54
briandelb: yes, watching "Take On Me" right now03:54
elbbluetooth is slow as hell03:55
elbis part of that equation03:55
jgomboswhat's the 60kb rate for?03:55
elbit's a typical bell-head ignorant standard03:55
jgombosit should be fast.. it's BT 2.003:55
^Jsn^I already called and got the media max added to my plan.  I've read alot of good reviews on tethering it, even though it is not supported by cingular03:55
jgombosBT 1.2 would bottleneck it, but not 2.003:55
jgombosguess the phones are all 1.2 huh?03:56
briandthe 1.99/ea headsets are...03:56
briand;)03:56
GeneralAntillesPAN is in the ~120KB/sec range03:56
GeneralAntillesThe bottleneck is DUN.03:56
jgombosDUN=dial up netoworking?  That's a windows concept isn't it?03:57
^Jsn^my sony ericsson w810i is usb 2.003:57
jgombosI'm not sure how dun applies to tethering03:58
^Jsn^jgombos:  Yes, but it is only a connection profile.  The speeds of the dial up networking is limited only to the network that you are dialing into with cellular service.  not the 56k baud rates that you are used to on land lines03:58
Proteousit's a bluetooth protocal03:58
Proteousit has slightly more overhead then bluetoothPAN03:58
Proteousso is slightly slower03:58
GeneralAntilles"slightly" :P03:59
ProteousPAN == personaly area network03:59
GeneralAntillesIt's a good 50% slower.03:59
Proteousheh03:59
elbbluetooth's protocol design is DUMB03:59
jgomboswait, so folks are dialing up using an analog modem over cellular?03:59
elbit's probably at least 50% slower03:59
jgombosthat is nuts03:59
Proteousjgombos: no03:59
Proteousit's not analog03:59
elbconnection-oriented bluetooth communication is crazy stupid overhead03:59
elbjgombos: it's ust the same words, not the same thing04:00
briandcellular rates never get better than 19.2K around here04:00
GeneralAntillesjgombos, it's a BT profile, it really has nothing to do with the 56k sort of modem.04:00
jgombosBluetooth 2.0 supports 3 Mbps (same as 3G's max theoretical speed)04:00
jgombosso that has to be a heck of a lot of overhead04:00
elbjgombos: that's bit rate, not data transfer rate04:01
Proteoussince when does max theoretical speed mean anything in the real world?04:01
ProteousI guess if you lock yourself in a metal mesh cage with your phone and your IT04:01
jgombosIt's a speed that will never be exceeded04:02
elbbluetooth has a *huge* percentage of protocol overhead in terms of per-packet bit count, as well as ignorant handshaking04:02
brianddata over cellular =  "welcome to the 1980s!"04:02
elbI mean ... BIG bluetooth packets are like 16 bytes or something04:02
^Jsn^data over cellular = "good alternative to not having wifi service!"04:03
Proteousyou guys and your bluetoothDUN, so 10 years ago. My phone from the future uses UWB04:03
elbexcept that data over cellular is unbelievably overpriced in the US04:03
briandindeed04:03
jgombosI actually get 2 Mbps from my EVDO04:04
jgombos(on a good day)04:04
Proteouseverything cellular is overpriced in the US04:04
^Jsn^lol u should go over seas04:04
^Jsn^it might be cheaper in the UK, but definantly not in south america04:04
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jgombosYeah, Americans are morons for consumers04:04
jgombosIt's nuts that they let all the cellular marketing scams take them04:05
^Jsn^I'll gladly pay $35 a month for unlimited data usage, even if it is edge04:05
jgombosI managed to find a niche service that resells Sprint contracts w/out contract.04:05
elbwell, not "everything cellular" is overpriced04:05
elbthe actual handsets are fairly priced (no better), and voice communication is rock-bottom cheap04:05
elbbut data so horribly overpriced it's not even fair to compare :-P04:06
jgombosOnce you account for all the contracts, rules, and scams, it is overpriced04:06
elbnot really04:06
elbwell, I take that back04:06
elbif you don't use your phone very much, it is04:06
jgombosConsumer reports published a 60% satisfaction rating for all US cellular customers04:06
elbbut if you use the phone a lot for voice communication, it's much cheaper than abroad04:07
briandmy cell is the only telephone in the house.04:07
jgombosno internet phone?04:07
elbwhat is this "internet phone" you speak of?04:07
jgombosVOIP04:07
elbpeople still use phone lines for internet connectivity?04:07
elbhow primitive04:07
elboh04:07
^Jsn^yeah i have no home phone and still have 4500 roll over minutes that i'll never use04:08
jgombosVOIP is the only way to have a secure conversation04:08
jgombosAFAIK04:08
briandnah.  comcast can barely be trusted with analog video... wouldn't want to put all my communications in their hands!04:08
Proteouswhat about face to face?04:08
Proteousslipping secret notes across the classroom works pretty well too04:09
jgombosI agree.. don't trust comcast04:09
Proteousas long as the teacher doesn't see you04:09
briandjgombos: no, not at all.  you can secure landline easily enough04:09
jgombosunless you VPN tunnel over them04:09
briandor cellular, for that matter04:09
elbalthough note that most people use commercial protocols without enough information to determine whether it's *really* secure04:09
jgomboshow?04:09
elbso ... they may or may not actually be secure04:09
^Jsn^well I work for the DOD and all of our secure phones are VOIP04:09
briandi dunno how it is where you guys are, but there's a -huge- disparity between technology-users and those that know what they have, here...04:10
briandmy n800 sees 14 networks at 3 bars or better, from inside my house.  only one of them is mine.04:10
jgombosthat's what I would expect.. but briand is saying landline / cellular can be secured04:10
Proteousdigital comunications are much easier to encrypt then analog :)04:10
briandthere's a fair number of "dlink" "linksys" and "NETGEAR" SSID broadcasts, unlocked...04:11
elbnote that securing cellular is more difficult than securing a landline, because the compression is so aggressive04:11
briandjgombos: yes, it can.  :)  I've done it.04:11
elbjgombos: securing PSTN has been well understood for decades04:11
jgombosunderstood by who.. the nsa?04:11
Proteouswhom04:11
elbunderstood by many04:12
briandan english major!04:12
briand;)04:12
elband you can buy devices to do it04:12
* briand is an engineer.04:12
briandor build them, elb.04:12
briand;)04:12
elbor, these days, write them in software04:12
briandbetter yet, firmware.04:12
^Jsn^Has anyone tried that media player that mimic's the ipod touch?  If so, does it work well?04:12
elbnote that the actual bandwidth of a GSM line is *very* low compared to a PSTN line -- you can easily pump voice quality audio through a regular dialup modem at 9600 baud04:13
GeneralAntillesCanola? ^Jsn^?04:13
elbwhich means you can encrypt it with whatever you like :-)04:13
Proteousrot13?04:13
jgombosvoice doesn't take much bandwidth.. just a good latency04:13
briandha!04:13
elbif you like ;-)04:13
GeneralAntillesROT26!04:13
jgombosVOIP will work over analog dialup04:13
Proteousheh04:13
GeneralAntillesThey'll never guess.04:13
ProteousVOIP works over sneakernet, but the latency is horrible04:14
briandjust use a 'one time pad'04:14
^Jsn^GeneralAntilles: UKMP04:14
GeneralAntillesIt's fine04:14
GeneralAntillesbut no longer under development.04:14
^Jsn^is canola better?04:14
briandbetter for you, when deep-frying.04:14
briandokay.. i need coffee.  brb.04:15
jgombosSo is there any way to tether and have the bottleneck at the EVDO connection?  ie. over USB?04:15
ProteousI prefer peanut oil, for the higher smoke point04:15
elbeh, canola oil doesn't smoke at 400 degrees04:15
elband that's all that matters04:15
jgombosyeah peanut is up there w/ sesame04:15
^Jsn^so what is the best media player for OS2008?04:15
elbgrapeseed oil is even higher, but that's irrelevant too ;-)04:16
GeneralAntilles^Jsn^, that's not an answerable question04:16
GeneralAntillesDepends on your needs04:16
GeneralAntillesOut of any 10 people, most of them will give you different answers.04:17
jgombosw/ an emerging device, that's not a bad question though.. there may only be 2 or 3 to choose from04:17
jgombosand only one may be ready for prime time04:17
elbtherea re more like 20 or 30 ;-)04:17
Proteous1: I use cat /dev/audio I don't even see the code anymore, all I see is Bach, Clapton, NIN04:18
briand...and i thought *I* was eclectic in my music tastes!04:18
jgombosi've only heard about Canola so far04:18
jgombosirc needs a "/np" command04:18
^Jsn^can canola play avi?04:19
GeneralAntillesCanola, UKMP, Media player, Kagu, XMMS, mpd/mmpc04:19
GeneralAntillesthe list goes on04:19
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GeneralAntilles^Jsn^, everything uses either mplayer on gstreamer.04:19
GeneralAntillesCanola can actually use both04:19
jgombosIt's quite impressive that canola can stream from your home library though.. do others do that?04:19
GeneralAntillesbut, yes, it can do .avi.04:19
GeneralAntillesMedia player04:19
GeneralAntillesMedia streamer04:20
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^Jsn^I wish that the 810 had a video ouput cable.  It would be cool to stream from my home video collection, but not to a 4 inch screen04:21
jgomboswhat would the role of the nokia be in that case?04:22
jgombosu don't need it04:22
jgombos..unless the tv isn't connected to a media player04:22
^Jsn^well I travel alot.  I'd like to put some movies on an 8gig card and connect it to a tv in the hotel room and watch the movie, rather than on the device04:23
^Jsn^yeah i don't have my house networked yet04:23
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jgombosany1 know if there is any effort planned to get an Ada compiler for our toy?04:24
^Jsn^what is ada?04:25
Proteousthat's going to be worked on right after the fortran compiler04:25
briandright after the cobol compiler, no doubt...04:25
Proteousdoh, you beat me to it04:25
briandProteous: did we have the smae parents?04:25
Proteousheh04:25
jgombosIt's a language.. the most reliable in the world.. used for safety critical tasks04:25
Proteouswill it make the nokia IT crashproof?04:25
briandsafer than prolog?  surely you jest!04:26
jgombosAda would make the NIT closer to crashproof than it would be w/out it04:26
Proteouseveryone knows the safest programing language is "insert your safe language of choise here"04:27
briandperl  -- it's as safe as you want it to be.04:27
jgombosTo be precise, 6 times closer to crashproof than C programs04:27
jgombosand 3 times more crashproof than C++04:27
elbyou can't make that claim04:27
elband you CERTAINLY can't make *that* claim04:27
jgombosLockheed made the claim04:28
jgombosof course, after an extensive study04:28
elbgovernment contractors hire monkeys to write their code04:28
Proteousbut 74.23% of statistics are made up?04:28
briandi can write you an 18 byte "hello world" program in assembler that you can't crash.  how big would the equivalent program be in ada?04:28
briandProteous: true, but 19% of those are true, anyway, on average.04:29
jgombosDoesn't matter, Ada is not for trivial packages04:29
Proteousit'll crash if I expose the CPU to cosmic rays while it is running! MUHAHAHAHA04:29
briandnot if i write it with man-in-the-moon marigold protection!04:29
Proteousis that like pokemon power?04:30
briandno, it's a vague literary reference from the 1960s04:30
Proteousah04:30
briand"the effect of gamma rays on man-in-the-moon marigolds"04:30
Proteousnot familiar with that one04:31
briandthere's a wikipedia link on your n8x0 tablet...04:31
briand;)04:31
Proteoussadly, I have a n77004:31
Proteousand it's installing canola2 ATM04:31
Proteousnow it's being rebooted04:32
Proteousnow I"m watching weak nokia hands04:33
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ProteousI get the subtle message that nokia feels the need to hold my hand like I am a child04:34
dospodI get the feel nokia dosent know how to market their products well04:35
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GeneralAntillesdospod, it's not that04:38
jgomboswell nokia should probably ignore the US market anyway04:38
GeneralAntillesit's that they don't want to market until they hit step 5.04:38
jgombosAmericans are too into the closed boxed junk04:38
derfWhat step are we on now? Collect underpants?04:39
elbs/Americans/people/04:39
^Jsn^hey don't need great advertising when they have kickass products04:39
jgombosonly if europeans != people04:39
elbeuropeans are just as into "closed box junk" as Americans are04:39
Naviheh04:39
elbunless I completely misunderstand your meaning of "closed box junk"04:40
jgomboslinux is popular outside of the US.. relatively speaking04:40
^Jsn^europe is america part 204:40
jgombosAsia and europe in particular04:40
elbI doubt that it's any more popular outside the US than it is in America04:40
elbmy personal experience certainly doesn't suggest that is the case04:40
^Jsn^that whats the case04:40
GeneralAntillesjgombos, that sounds like a bogus claim.04:40
elb^Jsn^: that Linux is measurably "more popular" outside the US than within04:41
jgombosThe US gov embraces M$, even when it's not appropriate04:41
derfI don't know about Asia, but Linux is certainly much less popular in Japan than the US.04:41
briandor legal, for that matter04:41
NaviThe government embraces Linux to pinch pennies04:41
jgombosyeah, I can agree on japan04:41
jgombos(where it's cool to be american)04:41
elbjgombos: yes, itis true that the government doesn't adopt Linux as much as (I think) it should -- but neither do European governments, by and large04:42
jgombosNavi, actually, it's about reliability04:42
jgombosThe german gov. forced M$ to show the source.. and then chose linux anyway04:42
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NaviThere are a few European countries that have huge Linux adoption rates, though.04:42
jgombosthe whole inspection was for reliability04:42
briandand they embrace M$ because it's about accountability.  they need a warrantee04:42
* elb bows out of this conversation, because it doesn't seem to be as much about facts as emotions04:43
dospodI hate how populor ms is04:43
jgombosAnd australia, from what I understand04:43
dospodwindows is good dont get me wrong but the monoply needs to be stopped04:43
jgombosI also see a lot of open source products coming out of germany04:43
jgombosHa, but M$ doesn't warrant their product either!04:43
GeneralAntilleselb, when is that ever not true? :P04:43
briandno, windows is not good, merely pervasive04:43
lcuk_3you cannot stop something until you have a viable alternative - as a linux dev i do not think its ready04:44
jgombosThe fitness of windows comes w/ no guarantee04:44
elbGeneralAntilles: well ... there's a level of it that can be tolerated ;-)04:44
briandjgombos: true, but they'll sell you a support plan.04:44
lcuk_3(tho apple is)04:44
^Jsn^I just don't understand why an open source OS has to resort to command line functions for installing applications!?04:44
jgombosbut there are linux based companies that will do the same04:44
GeneralAntilles^Jsn^, it has everything to do with its background.04:44
briandonly while we wait for the ada implemented GUI installer app to show up..04:45
jgombosWindows is being chosen carelessly.. it's a terrible "default" choice04:45
GeneralAntillesCommandline isn't a bad thing, though.04:45
^Jsn^for the average user it is.04:45
GeneralAntillesjgombos, for a lot of people, it's all about availability and compatibility.04:45
dospodcommand line is scary to people who arent computer litarate04:46
briandi did computer support in the good ol' DOS days.  reliability through obfuscation!  nobody ever accidentally formatted their HD, or accidentally typed in a destructive command...04:46
dospodlike my parents would think something bad is going on if they had to open a command line04:46
GeneralAntillesThe average joe is gonna suffer a lot more trying to run Linux without a knowledgeable person than Windows.04:46
GeneralAntillesPeople that know something about Windows are a dime a dozen.04:46
* elb suggests that people google "In the Beginning was the Command Line"04:46
wumpuslinux can be quite simple too, if you take the right distribution you never have to see a commandline or anything else scary04:47
briandyou only "rm / -rf *" once, and then you learn not to do it.04:47
GeneralAntilleswumpus, that's only really a recent development.04:47
elb(an essay which I actually have on my 810!)04:47
Proteouselb, I love that book04:47
pupnikyou don't need a commandline to use a tablet.  it just enhances your power04:47
GeneralAntillesThere's a lot of inertia to overcome.04:47
jgombosI've taken a man in his 70s from a typewriter directly to linux.. he could handle it fine.04:47
wumpuswell, try ubuntu I'd say04:47
jgomboslinux is ready for laypeople04:47
elbProteous: yeah, it's excellent; it oversimplifies a lot, and takes some liberty with the details, but drives home some good points04:47
dospodplus people expect to play mp3s out of box04:47
wumpus'very recent' is already two years or so04:47
Proteousyeah04:47
* lcuk_3 lays people. (hoping they are nubile linux using chicks)04:47
GeneralAntilleswumpus, right, that's very recent for overcoming 20 years of Windows inertia.04:48
wumpuswell I've introduced new users to it and they found it simple too04:48
GeneralAntillesMost people don't have Linux support people to fall back on.04:48
wumpusas soon as you know where the word processor, browser is in the meu you're ready to go :)04:48
Proteouseasy linux is two words, asus eeepc04:49
jgombosI gave a guy in his 50s a dual booting Win2k / DSL linux box.. he said DSL is easier04:49
^Jsn^it is simple, if you have the list of commands taped to the side of your computer04:49
lcuk_3Proteous, 100%04:49
jgombosit was his first computer04:49
GeneralAntillesIn the business world, there's a lot of stuff that Linux simply doesn't have solutions to.04:49
wumpusthere's also a lot that it has solutions too04:49
lcuk_3people buy it cos its small and cheap - and most of all because of this they dont expect the latest and greatest windows things to work anyway - "its just a cheap computer"04:49
ProteousI'm a firm beliver in using the best tool for the job, but an even firmer beliver in knowing your tools inside and out, which helps mightly with rule 104:50
briandexactly.04:50
^Jsn^I don't get the eeepc, they are comparing it to the 810.  It is a very small laptop.  not a pocket portable internet tablet04:50
NaviThey're comparing it because it's comparable in pricing.04:51
GeneralAntillesI like the "but I can fit my Eee in my pocket" retort.04:51
lcuk_3the problem with linux is that there are 4000 different (buit similar) tools which all nearly do what you want but not quite04:51
Proteousyou could sew a custom EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPC pocket04:51
wumpusanyway, the business world is a completely different thing than making it usable for laypeople04:51
jgombosBut back to marketing, Nokia would be foolish to spend much on marketing to a crowd of wisdom-lacking windows-using consumers.. their marketing it to the folks who will seek out what's good04:51
NaviI'm a firm believer in shut the fuck up.04:51
GeneralAntilles^04:51
Proteousheh04:51
jgombos*they're04:51
^Jsn^lol04:52
jgombosi know if I don't correct myself, the english major will04:52
lcuk_3this isn't /.04:52
NaviRabble rabble rabble rabble!04:53
^Jsn^no one answered me, has anyone tried orb with the tablet?04:53
jgomboswhat's that?04:53
ProteousI for one welcome or non marketing savy but great product producing nokia overlords04:53
GeneralAntilles^Jsn^, yes, somebody has.04:53
^Jsn^its an internet based tv streaming site.  it's free and streams your video, audio, and live tv from your computer04:54
^Jsn^anyone that is currently alive in this room04:54
NaviNo.04:54
ProteousI used that for a while04:54
GeneralAntilleshttp://tabletblog.com/search?q=orb04:54
^Jsn^Proteous: with the tablet?04:54
pupnikThe teletype would shudder as it was possessed by the spirit of the distant mainframe, and begin to hammer out cryptic messages.04:55
Proteousyeah04:55
GeneralAntillespupnik's possessed!04:55
* briand actually owns a PDP-1104:55
Proteousit never worked that well for me, although I don't know if it was orbs fault or just my crappy previous wifi router04:55
briandnow *there's* some processing power!04:55
SDuensinCan I come over and play Space War?04:56
briandhahaha04:56
^Jsn^I was just wondering if the 400mhz processor was enough to stream it without freezing and dropping frames04:56
* GeneralAntilles recommends http://mediautils.garage.maemo.org/04:56
briandsure, bring your own rpo 6-pack disk, tho...04:56
SDuensinhehe04:56
elbmy previous academic advisor still uses a microvax as his primary workstation04:56
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elblet me take that back04:57
ProteousI have tversity running on my media server, it on the fly transcodes my video and streams it to my n770 where media streamer sucessfully plays it back04:57
elbhe *sits* in front of a sparcstation -- but all of his work is on the microvax04:57
briandthat's exactly what I need to set up on my myth server04:58
Proteousthe video quality isn't amazing :)04:58
jgombosspeaking of sparcstation.. is it possible to develop maemo apps on one?04:58
Proteousbut the niftyness factor is off the charts04:59
jgombosI'd like to actually do something w/ this ultra 10 I just got running04:59
briandProteous: i wouldn't expect it to be so, nor is it necessary on the small screen04:59
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dospodany news on the youtube app?04:59
Proteousyou're already doing something with it. Protecting your house from being blown away by the wind04:59
GeneralAntillestablet-tuber?04:59
SDuensinProteous - hehehee04:59
dospodidk its a new topic in the software section of internettablettalk05:00
briandProteous: exactly.  i want to set it up so that i can stream my myth stuff to my n800 when i'm down in West Palm visiting my sister, next month.05:00
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^Jsn^GeneralAntilles:  Thanks for the link05:00
ProteousI never did figure out how to get UPNP server discovery working over a SSH tunnel05:00
Proteousbut tversity has a web frontend too, and that is easy to tunnel05:00
briand:)  myth has mythweb.  nice interface, and access to audio and video libraries05:01
ProteousI've used it to browse my media library from a non local lan connection05:01
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^Jsn^Proteous:  Does it stream threw ip as well?  And is it free?05:02
Proteousyes, and yes05:02
^Jsn^cool05:03
pupnikhahaha "Your Web browser is Ronald Reagan"05:03
Proteousand it has a preset transcode setting for the nokia tablet05:03
Proteoustablets*05:03
^Jsn^nice.05:03
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^Jsn^I read about tunneling a while back.  Seems a bit complicated to setup05:04
Proteousnot really05:05
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elbssh -D is your friend05:05
jgombosThe client end of a tunnel is easy05:05
jgombosThe server end can be complex05:05
Proteousthere is a little bit of a learning curve to get you head wrapped around it and to learn the commands, but it's a super useful thing to know/use05:06
elbssh -D eliminates most of that curve05:07
elbfor 95% of use cases or more05:07
Proteousyeah, but knowing how to use -L makes it easier to realize how much useful stuff you can do :)05:09
briandwhat?  no man pages on the n800 ?  for shame!05:09
elbI never use -L and -R any more05:09
elbI have NO IDEA why all the SSH tutorials out there detail them, and not -D05:09
elb(if I were to  choose only one, it would be -D, hands down)05:09
Proteousyou've never forwareded a port to a machine that wasn't the sshd server then :P05:11
elbyes, I have05:12
elbbut that's virtually never actually required05:12
Proteoussure it is05:12
derfI agree. It is.05:12
elbhave you looked to see what -D does?05:12
Proteouswell, I use it a lot05:13
elbyou may use it a lot, but there are *very* few instances where -D doesn't solve it just as well, without a specific forward05:13
Proteousremotly getting at services running on a machine behind a firewall that is running sshd05:13
elbright -- I use -D for that all the time05:13
elbseriously, look it up05:13
elbit creates a SOCKS proxy on localhost which connects from the remote end of the tunnel05:14
elbit's basically exactly like setting up an indefinite number of -L tunnels, but requires only one local port05:14
elbthe only catch is that your client has to speak SOCKS05:14
elb(the "virtually never" where it matters is when you need to forward something you can't coax through SOCKS)05:15
elb-R is a different story, but for -L ... -D is usually what you actaully want :-)05:15
jgombosAny european SWE's here?  ..that is, as a day job?05:19
dospod.. idk why but im dissapointed in my n8-00 still05:21
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^Jsn^Proteous:  I was reading the features of tversity and it doesn't list that it streams live tv from your tuner card.  Have u tried this?05:22
ProteousI don't have a tuner card05:22
^Jsn^does it have the option on the server software?05:23
Proteousno05:25
ProteousOrb is probably the way to go for that05:26
^Jsn^yeah i just don't know if it transcodes. thats a pretty cool feature05:27
ProteousOrb will05:27
jgomboswho was it that was using mutt on the NIT?05:30
jgombosI'm thinking that has to be a pain in the ass to use w/out a full size keyboard05:31
Proteousno one05:31
Proteouswell I ssh into a server and run mutt there05:31
jgombosno, someone said they use it (over ssh)05:31
Proteousthat was me05:31
jgombosyou do that by fat fingering a n810 keyboard?05:32
Proteousbasic mutt usage doesn't require very many keys05:32
ProteousI have a n77005:32
elbthe n810 keyboard is pretty usable05:32
elbI have used mutt over ssh on an n810, using the hard keyboard05:32
jgombosi don't know anything about that one.. is the 770 using an onscreen keyboard?05:32
Proteousyes05:33
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dragornthe on-screen KB eats too much for terminal apps, for me, but the 810 makes them quite usable05:33
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jgombosi'd like to do the same.. but I guess I'd have to have a large keyboard05:34
Proteouswith a few creative shortcut menu keys you don't have to pop up the keyboard much05:34
Proteousbut yeah, I'd rather have an 810 but it's not in the budget yet :P05:34
jgombossomeone said the 810 is slimmer than the 800.. hard to believe w/ the keyboard.  + the fact that gps is added.05:35
jgombosThe show stopper for me would be just having one SD slot.05:36
lcuk_3im ashamed to say im still using the onbard and havent filled the free slot yet.  i keep most of my media on big machine and just copy what i need.05:37
lcuk_3mind you, i am happy with a 1gb ipod05:37
derfYeah, me, too, actually.05:37
derfI'm waiting for 16GB cards.05:37
ProteousI just have the stock mem card for my 770, and most of that is in use as virtual memory05:38
lcuk_3im waiting until i find a need for any05:38
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lcuk_3on that day i will get the largest i can afford but not until05:38
jgombos16GB cards arn't supported.. is that pure s/w issue?05:38
derfWell, until 16GB cards are cheap, I mean.05:38
GeneralAntillesjgombos, on what?05:38
jgombosie.. something that will be overcome?05:38
Proteousthe 810 only supports up to 8gb cards05:38
jgombosn800 doesn't support over 8GB05:38
Proteousmight be a power issue?05:38
GeneralAntillesN800 supports up to 32GB right now.05:39
GeneralAntillesMore, once they update the SDHC standard.05:39
jgombosI read the limit was 2x8GB (16GB)05:39
GeneralAntillesN810 will support 16GB MiniSD once they're out.05:39
jgombosmaybe it was the n81005:39
GeneralAntillesWhoever wrote that is an idiot.05:39
dragornthe 810 only has one slot, so that wasn't it05:39
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* lcuk_3 looks at his 256mb memory stick and ponders05:41
Proteousfrom the nokia site: 810 specs: 2GB of internal storage, with memory expansion slot supporting cards up to 8GB05:41
jgombosi'd like to track down where I read that05:41
Proteousdoesn't mean it won't, that's just what they say05:41
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AlondriaOkay - this is weird.. I got boot from MMC working, however, when I boot from MMC, when the screen "fades", it flickers. I don't notice this when booting from flash.05:42
Proteousstop blinking?05:42
dragornthere shouldn't be any hardware limitation, so I'd wager that 8 gig number is either a temporary sw limit or that there aren't any larger mini cards05:42
Proteousheh05:42
dragornor weren't, at the time of writing05:42
jgombosis that mmc, or mmcplus?05:42
lcuk_3memory drain - im getting it when i try working with large datasets in memory.  you can see the screen dim - its like when you mess with electrics in the car, the lights dim05:42
Proteousthe 810 has a miniSD slot05:43
GeneralAntillesdragon, there aren't any cards.05:43
GeneralAntilles8GB is just what Nokia tested up to.05:43
lcuk_316GB micro sdhc with adapter05:43
Proteouseven the 8gig cards are hard to find05:43
lcuk_3£11905:43
jgombosi just got an 8GB card for $8 USD 3 wks ago05:43
dragornmicro or standard05:44
jgombosstandard SDHC05:44
dragornyeah that's why05:44
dragornthe 810 is mini sdhc05:44
Proteousis it one of the junky transend cards that get .00000004 mbps throughput?05:44
Proteous:)05:44
jgombossorry.. hard to keep the 810/800 discussion straight05:44
dragornmini or micro 8 gig are relatively rare, and often kinda crap05:44
* lcuk_3 backs up05:44
lcuk_3thats wong, google lied05:44
Proteousdamn you wong!!!05:45
jgombosthat's another reason I intend to avoid the n81005:45
dragornAvoid it all you want, I kind of doubt they'll be moving back towards fullsize sd.  Time will tell, of course.05:45
Proteousif you don't value the smaller size or the keyboard, by all means go with the cheaper, more slot endowed n80005:45
lcuk_3i am really surprised they didnt put dual micro slots in05:46
jgomboswell, maybe by the time I upgrade, the micro cards w/ have better availability and it won't matter05:46
Proteousthere's GPS too I guess05:46
jgomboscertainly right now it's quite limiting05:46
dragornI was pissed at the gps last weekend05:46
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Proteousprobably space constraints05:46
dragornwas driving back from dc, sick as hell, just sort of following the directions and trying not to drive off the road05:46
dragornand it tried to send me through f'ing manhattan for no reason05:47
dragornfortunately I was smarter than it at the last minute, but that sucked.05:47
Proteousheh, is that a GPS issue or a mapping software issue :P05:47
dragornmapping sw05:47
jgombosCan the GPS be turned off easily?  (i'm thinking it's a battery leech)05:47
lcuk_3is there physically enough room in a mini sd for 2 micro sds?05:47
dragornjga23: it turns on only when used05:47
dragorner05:47
dragornjgombos: see above05:47
Proteouslcuk_3: cramming two micro cards in there won't work05:48
dragornit can also be outright disabled05:48
ProteousI tried05:48
Proteousneither of them worked, turns out you need to use some sort of micro to mini adaptor05:48
jgombosnice to be able to forcefully disable it.. so you can stay current w/ BT GPS advancements05:48
lcuk_3yer i know that - i was thinking of some sort of dual micro -> mini adapter05:49
jgombos(and not leech battery when you navigate)05:49
Proteous:P05:49
dragornjgombos: I wouldn't be confident in the assumption that BT uses less power than GPS, would have to check the chip specs05:49
GeneralAntillesDual-micro slots would satiate me for the N900.05:49
lcuk_3if you have bt enabled anyway its gotta be a decent saving05:50
jgombosBT exists because of it's low power demand.. but you may be right in comparison to gps05:50
jgombosha, I mean *its* low power demand05:51
NaviBT suxxorz all mah powahs!05:51
jgombosenglish major should have called me on that quicker05:51
dragornjgombos: Checking...05:53
jgombosI thought it was interesting that they put an FM receiver in the n800.. but not a transmitter.05:53
jgombosSeems a FM transmitter would be more useful05:53
jgombosto more people05:54
derfAnd also require them to wade through more regulations.05:54
derfI was disappointed that they _didn't_ put a receiver in the N810.05:54
NaviWell, the receiver was part of the chipset they used, wasn't it?05:55
jgombosRegulations would be a non-issue if they just go w/ a canned solution (already approved circuits)05:55
jgombosperhaps.. i dunno.. but it doesn't work.. not out of the box anyway05:55
derfIs there a canned solution that's approved in all of the jurisdictions they sell in?05:55
jgombosI just installed the s/w, and just hear static on all channels05:55
derfIt worked fine for me.05:56
NaviYou need to have headphones plugged in, if you didn't do that.05:56
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jgombosgood point derf05:56
derfYeah, the headphones are the antenna.05:56
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jgombosI was just using the external speakers05:56
jgombosreally, wow.. i'll try that05:56
derfThe real fun is trying to get the sound to come out of the external speakers while the headphones are plugged in.05:57
jgombosnice!05:58
jgombosthat was it05:58
jgombosvery clever of them to use the headphones as an antenna05:58
jgomboswonder how many users that will stump05:58
^Jsn^navi: are you talking about on the 810 or 800?05:58
jgombosn80005:58
^Jsn^oh05:59
jgombosn810 doesn't have the option05:59
dragornjgombos: Well, I can't find any product sheets for the GPS5300 chipset.  And I can't find any product sheets listing actual draw from BT on the OMAP.05:59
jgombosn810 users need a BT FM receiver05:59
^Jsn^i read an article that said that when the 800 came out, the fm receiver wasn't advertised, so people thought that maybe the 810 would still have it05:59
jgombosI suspect you're right though.. GPS probably uses less power05:59
dragorn"any product sheets" really meaning "that list actual power draw"05:59
^Jsn^well BT 2.0 is supposed to use half of the power that 1.2 used, so thats a plus06:00
jgombosinteresting.. half the power and more than twice the speed06:00
jgombosless range, maybe?06:00
lcuk_3better filtering algorythm06:01
jgombosHa!  I actually can play the fm radio through the external speakers06:01
jgombosit has an icon for that.. but headphones must be plugged in06:02
^Jsn^yeah yeah rub it in06:02
jgombosI'm surprised, because normally that headphone override is hardware implemented06:02
lcuk_3headphones are for antenna arent they06:02
NaviOrb audio is fine.06:02
jgombosyeah06:02
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^Jsn^navi: have u tried orb video?06:03
jgombosthe fm app is cool.. downloads all the radio callsigns or whatever from the area06:03
jgombosSo i can select "wnci" for example, and it knows the freq.06:04
dragornjgombos: welll, I found one advertised BT chipset that claims < 20mW, and a sirfIII that says ~ 150mW, but I don't know how those compare to the chips actually on the TI board.06:04
jgombosthat's enough diff. that I don't think particular brand differences would matter06:05
dragornDunno that i'd be that confident :)06:05
^Jsn^does anyone know if the n810 gps chipset is sirf3?06:05
dragornit's not06:05
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jgomboswhat is it then?06:05
dragornit's a TI GPS5300 A-GPS chipset06:05
Naviorb video is fine06:05
jgombosnever heard of it06:06
dragornit's for cell phones06:06
NaviI'm streaming a 320x240 video though.06:06
jgombosThe only chips I would favor over Sirf 3 are the MFK ones06:06
dragornSpecs imply it's meant to be joined with cell data to do assisted GPS06:06
^Jsn^navi: no studdering or frame dropping?06:06
GeneralAntillesMTK, jgombos.06:06
dragornwhich the 810 isn't doing, obviously.06:06
jgombosah, yeah06:06
Navi^Jsn^, not really06:06
^Jsn^cool06:06
NaviI'm watching a full sized video now06:06
Navigimme a sec06:07
jgombosMTK uses considerably less power than sirf star 3, and it's more accurate06:07
jgomboswhich would make it ideal for a PDA or the like06:07
GeneralAntillesNetwork overhead with on-the-fly transcoding solutions reduces the total quality you can play without framedrop.06:07
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Navivideo is decent with bleach straight from dattebayo.06:08
Navinot scaled down or anything06:08
GeneralAntillesLot of framedrop in action scenes.06:08
lcukalso GeneralAntilles if you ever managed to get 800*480 video onto device, the xv video playback on lcd wont handle it06:08
Naviyeah, I haven't gotten to a fast paced area yet06:08
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* lcuk curses its max resolution06:08
GeneralAntillesYes, lcuk, I'm aware. :P06:09
NaviIt's not that bad.06:09
^Jsn^yeah i'm not sure if orb transcodes or not06:09
GeneralAntillesNavi, wait for the action. :P06:09
Navieven on action scenes06:09
NaviI'm watching one.06:09
^Jsn^GeneralAntilles: have u tried orb with your IT?06:10
GeneralAntillesIt goes well bellow 5fps at some of the action scenes.06:10
GeneralAntillesNo, Orb doesn't support my platform06:10
NaviIt's streaming from realplayer06:10
GeneralAntillesWhy don't you just go ahead and install it rather than asking everybody here about it?06:10
NaviStreaming from orb has better framerate than mplayer from the SD >_>06:11
Naviat least, that's what I'm experiencing :P06:11
^Jsn^because I haven't received my 810 yet. it's on its way06:11
GeneralAntillesOrb is transcoded, Navi.06:12
NaviYeah, I know.06:12
GeneralAntillesThen what's >_> about it? :P06:12
NaviBecause you were talking about it as if it was unwatchable.06:12
GeneralAntillesframedrop is highly irritating to me. :D06:13
Navi:P06:13
pupnikwhen sad, make pizza06:14
lcukwhy framedrop? if its transcoded that could just mean less detailed.    so what if you cant see the blood vessels in a persons eye, you get to watch a decent movie at full speed06:14
* lcuk has futurama on here and its great quality and speed even on built in media player06:15
GeneralAntillesHe said he gets better framerate with a transcoded video than an non-transcoded one.06:15
GeneralAntilles. . . duh.06:16
^Jsn^who said that?06:16
lcukyer, you drop frames from original because it cant decode all details.  hence one which decodes al frames gives higher framerate06:16
NaviRead context :P06:16
* GeneralAntilles has lost track of what's being argued here.06:17
* GeneralAntilles gives up.06:17
^Jsn^lol06:17
Naviyou should.06:17
lcuk?me can only see 3 lines as well :P06:17
lcukthis apple keyboard is lovely and quite for bedtime typing06:18
jgombosThe docs make it sound like the SDK will only install on debian or ubuntu easily.  Am i in for much work to install it on Red Hat 9?06:19
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^Jsn^Are there other linux based OS's for IT's, or just maemo?06:21
* GeneralAntilles rants about silicone nipples for a bit.06:21
GeneralAntillesDebian, Poky06:21
GeneralAntillesMamona06:21
^Jsn^can u install any of those on the nokia?06:21
jgombosMamona's faq says it's not rdy for prime time.. it'll be another year before it's stable06:22
GeneralAntillesI'm assuming by "IT" you mean "Nokia IT". . . .06:22
jgombosBut I'm looking forward to it, because it's 100% GNU06:23
GeneralAntillesjgombos, he didn't ask for "stable".06:23
jgombosRight, but it's useful to know06:23
^Jsn^yeah i meant stable releases06:23
jgomboswell, i mean, not necessarily 100% gnu, but 100% free of commercial components06:24
GeneralAntillesWell, then, "none".06:24
GeneralAntillesDebian is probably closest.06:24
^Jsn^ok06:24
jgombosdebian is more stable than maemo?06:25
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* GeneralAntilles gives up again.06:26
GeneralAntillesHe asked for alternatives to ITOS06:26
GeneralAntillesMaemo is not included in that set.06:27
NaviWell06:27
jgombosah, i c06:27
NaviIf only development would go faster for it06:27
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Navioh, sorry.  It = mamona06:29
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jgombosYeah, would be nice.. but Maemo's SDK is good enough to substitute until it's ready06:30
jgombosy'all using screen protectors?06:40
jgombosI've noticed a couple complaints that the screen gets scratched easily from the factory stylus06:41
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GeneralAntillesIt's because people use the screen with grit and grime on it.06:42
GeneralAntillesI recommend a screen protector, though.06:42
GeneralAntillesBoxwave anti-glare in particular.06:42
NaviI keep my screen obsessively clean06:42
NaviFingerprints irk me06:43
jgombosI already ordered one from elsewhere.. but i did notice someone else recommending boxwave06:43
jgombosi notice debris adheres to the screen easily for some reason.. unlike palms06:44
NaviI didn't notice that.06:44
Navis/didn't/haven't/06:44
infobotNavi meant: I haven't notice that.06:44
Navis/notice/noticed/06:44
infobotNavi meant: I didn't noticed that.06:44
Navi...06:44
GeneralAntillesHa06:44
pupnikso who wants playstation 1 games on n8x006:46
SDuensinHow on earth would you control it?06:46
pupnikpoorly06:47
jgombosI wonder how all those DOS games are controlled on the NIT06:47
* SDuensin has twisted visions of pairing a PS3 bluetooth pad with the device. :-)06:47
NaviI'd rather decent nes emulation.06:47
pupnikyeah i will stick with it Navi06:48
Navi:)06:48
jgombosI'm about to use a lens cleaning tissue on the screen.. the "See Clear" ones from costco06:49
GeneralAntillesWhy?06:49
GeneralAntillesJust use water.06:49
GeneralAntillesOr your shirt.06:49
jgombosit's got some specs on it that don't seem to come off easily06:50
Navi:|06:54
jgombosI noticed there was universal remote s/w for the nIT.. so now all we need is IR h/w06:56
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Soopamanhello06:57
Soopamanis anyone awake?06:58
jgombosthe americans are06:58
Soopamanheh06:59
jgombosand canadians06:59
GeneralAntillesIrrecco connects to a server.06:59
Soopamanare there any north americans familiar with the chinook "dpkg-preconfigure" issue?07:00
jgombosdid you spell that right?  google has 3 hits for it07:00
T0b0trasIt north america they call dpkg-reconfigure in such a backward way07:01
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jgombosfound the server: http://www.irtrans.de/en/07:04
jgombosthat must be a coming attraction for me.. never used dpkg07:06
jgombosi've been spoiled with portage07:06
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jgombosit's going to get under my skin that all these APIs are in C07:12
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Soopamanjgombos, t0b0tras, that's what a chinook apt-get errors out with07:17
Soopamanand it seems that it doesn't have dpkg-reconfigure either07:18
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T0b0trasSoopaman: looks like package author's typo07:20
Soopaman[sbox-CHINOOK_X86: ~] > fakeroot apt-get install maemo-sdk-dev07:20
Soopamanis what i am trying to do07:21
Soopamanbut i can't seem to find any info on finding the missing packages07:22
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Soopamanany suggestions?07:23
jgombosno idea.  You're ahead of me07:24
Soopamanpardon?07:25
jgombosYou've made more progress than me.  I have no idea how to tell you to find missing packages07:26
jgombosI'm only now downloading the SDK.07:26
Soopamanahh, ok07:28
Soopamant0b0, any ideas?07:28
jgombosI don't even use debian07:28
jgombosIt looks like it could get ugly for me.  The docs are telling me I need to install Xephr just to use the SDK07:29
jgombosI hate screwing with X servers07:30
NaviI don't like to screw with too many Xs either.  I prefer a 1:1 X to Y ratio.07:31
GeneralAntilles<_<07:31
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jgombosDo i have to replace KDE w/ Xephyr on my desktop, or is Xephyr installed internal to the sandbox?07:35
NaviYou just need the Xephyr X module installed.  Xephyr runs on top of a running X server.07:35
jgombosIf something goes wrong, could it mess up my desktop?  Or just the SDK environment?07:36
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NaviWell, depends on what you mess up.07:37
jgombosokay.. I'm just trying to get a general idea of the risks.07:37
jgombosmy knowledge is weak on Xserver configs07:37
GeneralAntillesJust run the VMWare image.07:37
jgombosyeah, I can see how vmware would create a sheltered risk free environment07:38
jgombosbut there's also a vmware learning curve :>07:38
NaviNo there isn't.07:39
NaviYou just boot up the image that's provided for you07:39
NaviThe vmware image is Ubuntu, I believe.07:39
jgombosDoesn't VMware have to boot before my Red Hat kernel?07:39
jgombosOr does that run within a red hat session?07:40
NaviDo you know what VMWare is?07:40
jgombosonly a very vague idea07:40
jgombosIt's a way of running another os in parallel, right?07:41
Navisure07:41
jgombosI'm not sure at which point vmware is in control.. I thought i remember it taking over the MBR or boot sector or something.07:42
GeneralAntillesIt's a virtualized machine.07:43
GeneralAntillesThink of it like a windowed FPS07:43
GeneralAntillesYou can cycle in and out of it.07:43
jgombosSo I can boot my red hat box like normal, and simply run vmware as a user?07:45
jgomboswhich in turn just runs an image?07:45
jgombosif so, then I don't have a problem with it.. I'll probably try that07:45
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dskippyDoes anyone know if I can set the master volume of the N800 from a python program?07:56
jgomboslol.. I just heard companies in Iowa who sell American flags that are not made in the US will be fined $625.07:58
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zoranIowa is strange place at all  :)08:00
Tama^2it08:04
Tama^2it's because if you want to be so silly to be patriotic you should at least do it properly08:04
Tama^2;)08:04
jgombosA german friend of mine said he wanted an american flag w/ a made in china tag as a souvenier a couple years ago.. guess he won't find it in iowa08:04
jgombosApparently iowans are quite patriotic.  I just watched a UFC match.. Tim Silvia from Iowa always enters the octagon w/ a flag around his neck08:05
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zoranwhat if some chinese made it in us?08:06
dskippyIs there a way to map the zoom +/- keys to volume system wide?08:06
Tama^2zoran: then the label would say made in the US08:06
Tama^2so no problem :P08:06
zoran:)08:06
jgomboswhat if the label itself is made in china?08:07
zoranit said "made in usa"08:08
jgombosIf they tried to fine me under that new law, that's what I would argue.08:08
zoranand the cotton or nylon, where is that made?08:09
zoransilc bug, does it have correct nationality?08:09
jgombosyeah, and the inks?08:09
jgombosAnd what if I want a hemp flag?08:09
zorans/silc/silk/08:09
infobotzoran meant: silk bug, does it have correct nationality?08:09
derfThis T-shirt I have from Australia has the Australian flag log and "Winning Spirit" on the tag.08:10
derfAnd then on the back it says, "Made in China".08:10
zoranfor that kind you have to find million supporters in Amsterdam08:10
derf*logo08:11
Tama^2true, and as a consequence it is decided that silk bugs are henceforth issued an RFID passport08:11
zoranyeah08:11
Tama^2and have to pay taxes08:11
zoranor implanted08:11
zoranat least that kind of wokd should confine you from using improper free minds08:13
zorans/wokd/work/08:13
infobotzoran meant: at least that kind of work should confine you from using improper free minds08:13
jgomboss/hemp/bamboo/08:15
infobotjgombos meant: And what if I want a bamboo flag?08:15
zoranhe-he08:15
jgomboss/bamboo/rice/08:15
jgombosjust testing the infobot08:15
jgomboss/hemp/rice/08:15
jgomboshmm.. it will only make one find and replace08:16
zoranyou should mention once bamboo08:16
zorans/bamboo/iron/08:16
infobotzoran meant: you should mention once iron08:16
zorans/testing/find/08:17
zorannope, you yourself should mantion it once!08:17
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zorannothing happens if I change your statement08:17
jgombosyeah, i figured that08:17
jgombosor else it would have to say personA thinks personB meant...08:18
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jgombosjust hit the first glitch on the SDK install.08:26
jgombosI was able create a user acct for scratchbox, and start scratchbox as root, but could not login as user08:26
jgombosGot a permission denied, before it even asked for my username or password08:27
GeneralAntillesYou did it incorrectly.08:29
jgombosI installed as root, created user acct as root, and ran login as a user08:30
jgombosThat was what the instructions directed08:30
derfDid you add your user to the sbox group?08:31
jgombosIt said "starting scratchbox: mount" when I kicked it off.. is that the right message?08:31
jgombosyeah08:31
derfAnd then either log out and log back in, or start a new shell?08:31
jgombossbox_adduser username yes08:31
jgombosah, that might be it.  the user acct may need a new shell08:32
derfE.g., if you run "groups" it should include sbox in the list.08:32
jgombosthat must be the issue.. i didn't actually make it into the group.08:33
jgombosThe script may have failed, since I'm on a red hat box08:33
jgombosthough it didn't give any error08:33
NaviYou have to log in/out for group additions to work.08:33
jgombosso a new shell isn't good enough?08:34
derfIt is... but it has to be a login shell.08:34
derfTry su - <your username>08:35
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jgombosi'm in08:36
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Soopamangoodness, why am i having such a hard time getting more than just the base sdk environment up08:56
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NaviWell, it's not ment for everyone.09:15
Navis/ment/meant/09:25
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Smak_I am using gentoo, and noticed the INSTALL.TXT file for installing maemo includes quite a few scratchbox components. Doean anyone know if the standard ebuild for scratchbox contains all that I will be needing?09:49
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Smak_ /j #Gentoo10:12
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Zicwhere can I find a release of GPE PIM for OS2008 ? The only one release that I found is for OS2007 …10:47
Cptnodegarduse the repos10:48
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tubtubHi all. Does anyone have a link to a c code example in getting a bluetooth spp connection up?11:49
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* T0b0tras wonders what spp is :)11:52
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tubtubit allows for rs232 emulation over bluetooth.11:53
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tubtubI have seen bluez stack stuff but I am still not really with it in how to implement it.11:55
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jkutubtub, have you seen the python-dbus example: http://wiki.bluez.org/wiki/HOWTO/SerialConnections ?12:03
jkushouldn't be too hard to do the same in C (if dbus is acceptable)12:04
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tubtubthanks, jku. I suppose I am looking to get something going that brings up a window on my n810 of the available devices and allows the user to choose one. Then it will do the binding, etc and connect to that port.12:05
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michele_hello12:07
michele_I think I have a problem12:07
michele_the tablet is not charging anymore12:07
michele_it says "chargin"12:07
tubtubthanks, though. Looking around the wiki a bit more I have found a starter. cheer jku12:07
michele_it does the "booiing"12:08
michele_the battery applet throbs12:08
michele_but it doesn't charge12:08
michele_just at the right moment when I need it for the first time for a travel!12:09
michele_now I am trying with a different (350mA) charger12:10
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tubtubhas anyone got flash working youtube in any decent fashion. I tried it a bit but it seems the n810 isn't that great. Is there any optimisations or is it more fundamental a problem?12:12
tubtubmichele, how do you know it isnt charging?12:12
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michele_tubtub: it says "less than an hour remaining"12:15
tubtubafter a while?12:15
tubtubcharging all night kinda thing?12:15
tubtubmichele: Have you tried powering down, removing the battery for a while, putting it all back together, booting and seeing if it charges?12:17
michele_yes12:17
michele_trying that right now12:17
michele_besides, anyone here from barcelona? I'm coming there tomorrow :)12:18
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ulisesmorning all12:21
tubtubulises: morning12:21
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uliseshey tubtub12:23
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michele_ok I think it's this damned tiny plug12:36
michele_I hat it12:36
michele_the other charger works, but is obviously SLOW12:36
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ulisesanybody got a full debian running inside scratchbox?12:55
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tubtubmichele: Well least you got it working. My adapter packed up the first day I bought my n810. I luckily had a spare but I am still trying to get Nokia to replace it a month later13:03
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tubtubulises: Why you want a full debian running inside scratchbox?13:04
ulisestrying to compile some stuff for the IT13:05
ulisesand i have sid running on it13:05
ulisesso if I compile with maemo sdk it won't run on it (wrong libs, etc.)13:05
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tubtubare you looking to compile for x86?13:06
jkuulises, like what libs?13:06
uliseslooking to compile for armel13:07
ulisesnot sure which libs13:07
ulisestrying to build e1713:07
ulisesthe issue is that I'm running sid on it13:07
ulisestherefore the clash in the dependencies13:07
jkuah, you're running debian on the device13:08
ulisesyes13:08
BugBluenice13:10
tubtubhow did you get Debian running on it and can I ask why, ulises?13:10
ulisesbut debian is not really cooperating inside scratchbox13:10
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uliseswhy: because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling13:11
uliseshow: debootstrap13:11
ulisesno, seriously13:11
ulisesjohnx has a nice explanation for why you'd want debian on your it13:11
ulisesprobably the best point would be that there's loads of apps already compiled13:11
ulisesand ready to use13:11
ulisesyou can switch desktops as you desire13:11
ulisesetc etc13:11
tubtubdoes it work nice?13:12
BugBluethe N810 with garnet VM is faster than an iphone with palm emulator... 542% (of a palm IIIc) against 423%13:12
BugBluehttp://www.engadget.com/2008/02/23/palm-emulated-on-the-iphone-finally-we-can-leave-that-iiic-at-h/13:12
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ulisesyes13:12
ulisesit's actually quite responsive13:12
ulisesI ran e16 on it13:12
tubtubhave any links to installation?13:12
ulisesand it's quite fast13:12
uliseshang a sec13:13
ulises*hang on13:13
jkuhow do the debian guys do it? do they compile natively on armel? must take a while...13:13
uliseshttp://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debian13:13
ulisesprobably cross-compile13:13
tubtubcheers13:13
ulisesnp13:13
ulisesand then test13:13
ulisesimagine compiling debian on your it13:13
ulises*all* the packages13:14
ulises:D13:14
tubtubmight be what my lazy Sunday has been looking for...lol13:14
uliseshehe13:14
BugBluemy treo is only 468% :-(13:14
jkuand monday and tuesday...13:14
ulisesif you're a masochist then I'd say you try it13:14
ulisesfairly easy13:14
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tubtubwell I get the fuzzy feeling part but I am wondering if I should bother really. It says that sound doesnt work at the moment...13:17
tubtubI kinda like my podcasts, internet radio, mp3 playing kinda stuff13:18
ulisesah13:18
uliseswell13:18
tubtubjust wish you tube worked properly, I think that is the only down side at the moment13:18
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ulisesinstalling debian doesn't mean you get rid of your original OS13:18
ulisesyou can boot either13:18
uliseswhen it's podcast time, you boot into your ITOS13:19
uliseswhen it's happy-hacking time13:19
ulisesyou boot into your debian13:19
tubtuboh right, so nice little boot menu thing going on. Hmm...maybe I should by a miniSD card for this then. That way I can keep my system as it13:20
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ulisesexactly13:21
tubtubwell sorry can't help you with your probs...I take it you have looked to change the /etc/apt/sources.lst file to update the install and see if it doesnt break the system13:22
tubtub?13:22
ulisesyes13:24
ulisesa couple of times13:24
ulises;)13:24
tubtublol13:24
ulisesit's not easy to upgrade debian inside scratchbox13:25
ulisesI'm sure there's some obscure docs around13:25
ulisesjust couldn't find them13:25
tubtubhmm...does e17 have a list of libs it requires?13:25
tubtubmaybe you need to compile them manually...13:25
uliseswell13:26
ulisesbefore going about that13:26
ulisesI need to update the system13:26
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ulisesand in order to do so13:26
ulisesyou have to force many things13:26
ulisesand hack it so it finishes13:26
ulisesone way or the other13:26
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ulisesresulting in a system somewhat not trustworthy13:26
ulisesif you catch my drift13:26
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tubtubin http://wiki.bluez.org/wiki/HOWTO/DiscoveringDevice, the C code examples says to build with gliba-genmarshal... Anyone know how I do this?13:40
tubtub<correction, doh> glib-genmarshal...13:40
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jkutubtub, yeah, wait a sec13:47
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jkutubtub, if you have "non-standard" signal signature you need to generate them with glib-genmarshal13:49
jkuhere is an example from Makefile.am:13:49
jkugeoclue-marshal.h: geoclue-marshal.list $(GLIB_GENMARSHAL)13:50
jku$(GLIB_GENMARSHAL) $< --header --prefix=geoclue_marshal > $@13:51
jkuthat's for the marshal headers13:51
jkuthe same thing with --body will create the actual marshaller .c file13:52
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jku(and geoclue_ is just my projects namespace, you can drop/change that)13:53
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tubtubjku: thanks. I am still reading up on using the auto tools. I am coming from 8bit assmbly/c coding so all this autoconf stuff is quite new. The training docs on Maemo are really great though. I am working through them still13:54
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jkuyou can use glib-genmarshal by hand of course13:55
jku.. to get the hang of it13:55
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jkuglib-genmarshal your_marshal_list_file --header13:56
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tubtubwell I did that manuall and that worked...very cool. You are a superstar jku14:00
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GNUosoHi14:54
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tubtubhi GNUoso14:54
uliseshey GNUoso14:55
GNUoso:)14:56
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tripolohi15:03
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tripoloany speak spanish help me please15:04
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ulisesI speak spanish15:05
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tripolopodemos hablar en privado o por aqui mismo?15:07
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tripoloulises mandame un privado please15:08
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|tbb|is it possible to use an nxxx as boot device for loading probably a nix based live cd15:24
johnxboot your desktop off your Nxxx you mean?15:24
johnxthat's a fun idea! :D15:24
|tbb|yeah15:24
johnxmaybe15:24
jkuwhy not, if the desktop boots off usb15:25
jkufrom usb, even15:25
johnxit shows up as a card reader. and my desktop seems happy to boot off of my *real* card reader15:25
|tbb|http://citp.princeton.edu/memory/ seen that and i was thinking about that15:25
johnxit depends on how flexible your BIOS is about what it considers a bootable device, but it might work15:25
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jkuI'm guessing any modern (<3 yrs old) machine should be able to do it15:26
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* johnx has seen too many crappy BIOSes to be that optimistic...15:27
|tbb|im not having a nix live-cd always with me so it would be nice to have the ability to help someone to recover data or fixing problems just when i attach my n8x0 to his desktop machine, i guess the ppl will make big eyes when they see that ;)15:29
jkubooting from a usb disk has become quite common now as many machines do not have cd drives...15:29
johnxjku, yes...I've noticed that much, but often the implementation in the BIOS is flakey/picky about what it will boot and how it will try to boot it15:30
jkuyou may be right15:30
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jkuJust counted, I have three computers and five other devices running some kind of linux here and only one has a cd drive15:31
johnx2/5 here :)15:32
felipechow many people here speak Spanish? enough for a #maemo-es maybe?15:34
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johnxYo hablo un pococita :)15:34
* johnx dusts off his Spanish, stares at the rusty bits O_o15:34
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_berto_Yo hablo un poquito de espaniol15:36
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LoCusFhttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147027&postcount=4 <- here is the synergy package if someone needs it15:45
johnxcool! I was just reading that thread, right before you posted :D15:46
LoCusFheheheh15:46
johnxDoes that give you a visible mouse cursor as well?15:46
melmothgrumble..15:47
johnx(as long as .debs appear when I view a thread I might as well ask...)15:47
melmothi think gettext is driving me mad. Anybody understand why some entry are flagged as 'fuzzy' with msgmerge, and not other ?15:47
LoCusFjohnx: nope15:48
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michele_melmoth: they are entries for which msgmerge "guessed" the match, usually it's because the msgid is slightly changed15:49
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LoCusFjohnx: I think there is a way to make it visible by creating the mouse cursor icon to the X-server15:49
melmothmichele_: the thing is, i do not know why, but all those lines are not taken care of then in gettext.15:51
melmoththe other sentences are translated ok.15:51
melmothso i have to rebuild the whole pot/translate again in po and turns in po each time i make a change .15:51
melmothi meant turns in mo.15:52
johnxLoCusF, yeah. I heard mumblings about that. I was just curious :)15:52
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LoCusFjohnx: ok :)15:58
LoCusFjohnx: I'll search the thread and cook up a deb with mouse cursor as well15:58
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johnxwow! cool16:00
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LoCusFjohnx: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147027&postcount=416:16
lcuk_3is there a command to lock my 810 programmatically instead of reaching for the slider?    i have it in a cradle and only have to get it out to lock it at the end of day16:17
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johnxThanks LoCusF. I'll install that tomorrow. I need some sleep for now O_o16:19
LoCusFjohnx: ok cool :)16:19
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johnxlcuk_3, shot in the dark: maybe try listening with dbus-monitor --system as you hit the slider to see what's being sent? (Assuming it sends a dbus message...)16:20
* johnx sleeps16:21
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Alendit_hey16:29
Alendit_need some help on http headers of microb16:30
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Alendit_does anyone know a way to change them?16:30
Alendit_i tried a firefox extension (modify headers) but i can't get it working16:30
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Alendit_i see it in microb extension manager und enable it but it just don't work16:31
Alendit_*doesn't16:31
zorancould you elaborate a little bit more?16:32
zoranhttp headers are of matter to browser only16:32
zoranhtml tags?16:33
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Alendit_oops, sry, re16:36
Alendit_zoran, i have a proxy that filters all requestes but those that have x-wap-profile16:37
aquarius-hello there... how many wifi channels are supported in maemo? i'm aware that there are only 11 channels available in the US but up to 13 in Europe (14 in some countries)16:37
zoranAlendit_, I misunderstood your post, sorry!16:38
zoranso, you need headers that say "hi, I'm regular user, please let me go!"?16:39
Alendit_yes, kinda of16:40
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Alendit_my header should say 'hi, i am regular cell phone, let me go'16:40
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Alendit_zoran, the stupid thing is: this filter is to prevent desktops and laptops to use this proxy...with a desktop i would have no problem go through it...16:41
zoranto authenticate and change some keys?16:41
Alendit_no, to get internet access16:42
Alendit_its wap flatrate16:42
zoranI recall privoxy as first aid16:42
Alendit_i though about that16:42
zoranall inside the node should be transparent, only that app matters16:42
Alendit_but i don't know how i can add header i privoxy16:42
zoranit is just another proxy16:43
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zoranlet it talk to your proxy16:43
zoranwhat protocol it uses at all?16:43
Alendit_http16:43
zoranin other words: is it packet or application firewall?16:43
Alendit_packet16:44
zoranhm16:44
zoranftp via browser goes out?16:44
Alendit_it reads 2 lines from http header: user agent and uaprof16:44
zorank, some tunnel should do the thing16:44
Alendit_is those are cell-phone-like it let it through16:44
Alendit_yeah, i know, but for a tunnel i need a server that is permanently online16:45
zoranso, some packet injector would change the headers proxy sees16:45
Alendit_and it would be kind of too much overhead16:45
Alendit_it just one line ^^16:45
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zoransome kind of nat?16:46
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Alendit_i think it would be easier to patch microb code...16:46
Alendit_or port modify headers to microb16:46
zoranone question: phone should be connected with wifi interface?16:46
Alendit_no, with bluetooth16:47
Alendit_dun bluetooth to cell phone16:47
zoranaha16:47
jottwhy not just use privoxy? you get adblocking for free ;)16:47
zoranbluetooth has nothing to firewall!16:47
Alendit_i can't find it for chinook16:47
Alendit_forget bluetooth, it just a dun connect to modem16:48
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zoranhydra or alike could tunnel first/whatever to the firewall16:48
zoransome python code would be even better on nokia16:49
zoranor perl16:49
Alendit_i need a server to tunnel16:49
Alendit_well, a pc where the tunnel goes16:50
zoranwhat firewall says to the browser?16:50
Alendit_no idea ^^16:50
zoranany error message?16:50
Alendit_no16:50
Alendit_just no response16:50
zoranjust hangs?16:50
Alendit_yes16:50
Alendit_can you give me a link to privoxy for chinook16:50
zoranand you have ip address and resolv.conf shows something?16:51
jottAlendit_: gronmayer.com/it has it16:51
zoranI found provoxy for gregale16:51
Pretorianohi! anyone can help me compiling an app in scratchbox?16:51
Alendit_it would be so much neater just to port modify headers to microb... ^^16:52
|tbb|anyone got ubuntu installed?16:52
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|tbb|got a problem a friend burns a svcd for me with k3b, but i cant play it on my ubuntu feisty, i can read the content (only the directory structure), but nothing else. any idea whats wrong?16:52
zoranit was not made as bootable, probably16:53
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Alendit_svcd? bootable? ^^16:53
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Alendit_| tbb | try it http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Gutsy#How_To_Add_DVD_Playback_Capability16:54
zoranyeah, you are right16:54
Alendit_|tbb| svcd uses the same codec as dvd i think16:54
Alendit_or try vlc16:54
Alendit_jott, couldn't find it there16:54
Alendit_zoran, where do you have your privoxy from?16:55
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jottAlendit_: it's in the eko one repository maybe you made a typo :P (not tested if it works with os08 but i guess it should)16:55
zoranmaemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationCatalog200616:56
zoran770 and gregale16:56
jotthttp://eko.one.pl/maemo/dists/bora/user/binary-armel/privoxy_3.0.6-2_armel.deb16:56
Alendit_2006? sure it works on 2008?16:56
zoranno16:56
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zoranI still have no 810 or similar16:57
zoranjott points to the right direction16:57
Alendit_me neigher, running 2008 on n80016:57
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jottAlendit_: just try it.. it's not using hildon etc..16:57
jottor just compile it ;)16:57
Alendit_i guess, i've got no other choise16:57
Alendit_i works ^^16:57
Alendit_now, configuration16:58
Alendit_where can i insert a http header line?16:58
jottit's +hide-user-agent{} or something like this16:58
zoranbtw, someone found application manager unreadable after last few days' update16:58
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GeneralAntillesWhat updates, zoran?17:00
zoranlike apt-get17:00
zoranin red pill mode17:00
zoranfew new apps have so loooooooooooooong naaaaaaaaaaaaaames17:00
jkulong version, more likely17:00
zoranmanager formats from right to the left17:01
zoranso, all is seen except the very name17:01
|tbb|aendit: thx, but this might not be the problem. because i cant even copy the content (for example the mpg file which stays under mpeg folder) of the cd17:01
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|tbb|had installed the dvd thing anyway17:01
zoranregarding names, libfaad2 and libmp4 etc17:01
zoranthe originator should change those names17:02
Alendit_on what port do privoxy running by default?17:02
zoranlooks thet those files are in extras!17:03
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Alendit_811817:03
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magicrobotmonkeywhen i try to run yt-viewer it says cant find module gnome.gconf17:05
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lcukyou need to convince the underpant gnomes to return to their hiding place inside your nokia17:05
GeneralAntilles<_<17:06
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Alendit_how can i define an action in default.action that matches all urls?17:33
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Alendit_i really don't get it...why is { +add-header {Profile: http://wap.sonyericsson.com/UAprof/P800R102.xml} } an invalid line?17:42
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jottmaybe he does not like the space "add-header {" ?! hmm17:48
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Alendit_yeah, that was it17:50
Alendit_i spent 30 min looking for error -.-17:50
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jottwho want's to try randr based rotation support for os2008 (n8x0 only)? (not really for the faint of heart but works nice here)18:16
jott(preliminary) instructions: http://sse2.net/rotate/18:17
lcukjott, this is full hildon rotation for the entire desktop, or just extensions to allow an app to choose?  (i know it can be enabled already at some level)18:18
jottlcuk: for the entire desktop18:19
lcukcool :) though i think it will be more suited to the 800 - the 810 has a definate prefered orientation18:19
jottlcuk: not with a closed keyboard :)18:20
lcukunless you can make a software hack to rotate the keyboard ;)18:20
jotti use it on a n810. as i also wrote a status bar applet it's easy to rotate when desired ;)18:20
lcukthe lcd supports all types of rotation (0,90,180,270) have you got the desktop working at 90?18:21
jottlcuk: that was the main point to do so :)18:21
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lcuki thought daniel stone said there were too many hard coded 800*480 figures in the code?18:22
jottsure there are some dialogs etc..18:22
jottit's not for "regular" use18:22
jottbut for browsing etc. its nice18:22
lcuki bet - i read books at 90, and use vnc at 90 and it fits better18:22
jottfbreader should be a bit faster with hardware rotation :)18:24
lcukfbreader is just slow anyway - im working through the options to allow proper scrolling and refresh rates18:24
lcuki hate the way you see the page refresh18:24
lcukits like a multimedia wipe effect you see on crappy ppts18:25
jottyeah i guess the font rendering is a bit slow with it..18:25
jottbut it's not *that* slow here at least18:25
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lcukit feels awful - its like a step down from my old pda18:26
lcuksure, the text *looks* great, but it renders like crap18:26
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jottwith hardware rotation enabled i can't see any sweeping effects ;p18:27
lcukdoes the app know its working with a 480*800 screen though, or is it rendering as usual then having it rotated and scaled?18:28
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jottlcuk: it's just a normal x window so it gets a resize event when screen is rotated18:29
lcuknice :) ive saved a link and will investigate further in the coming days - its an area of interest18:30
jottyeah feedback would be nice.. i need to prepare an upstream patch anyway..18:30
lcuki was considering doing the rotation purely at the app level (but still using the lcd to do the lifting) but if it can be gotten into the kernel its job is done18:30
jottyeah well the rotation support is in the kernel git (though with some bugs) but i doubt we'll see it with an official os2008 upgrade..18:31
jottanyway.. who needs official releases :P18:32
lcukright, that does it - ive never tried anything with linux flashing or anything but i think this will be worth it.  im gonna see how far i get with this, just gonna backup 1st...18:34
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jottyeah actually there should be no risk but a backup is always wise :)18:35
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lcukgood idea to backup anyway.  if i leave the backup file on mmc2 the flashing process never touches it does it?18:36
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jottnope18:36
jottit should be safe..18:37
lcukbut i will lose any modifications i have made to other parts of the filesystem - like i have added desktop items and shortcuts and things in /usr/bin18:37
lcukor is this not the same as a full system reflash18:37
jottonly if you do a complete reflash..18:37
jottit just changes the kernel and then there is a package for Xomap..18:37
fysalcuk18:37
fysamake ~/bin18:37
fysaand add that to your $PATH18:38
jottthere should be no effect to any other places..18:38
lcukjust getting it straight in my head really18:38
fysaa good way to not lose things when updating a distro? :)18:38
jottand if you use the --boot option the kernel will not even be flashed, just booted once18:38
lcukfysa, ~/bin where does ~ point to (im still feeling my way)18:38
fysa$HOME18:38
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fysa/home/user/bin18:38
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jott(can't tell about the windows version as i never used it)18:39
fysaPATH=$PATH:$HOME/bin18:39
fysaor something like that.18:39
lcukahhh right - that makes it more logical - then my stuff doesnt get in the way of other things, i was just following where i had seen other apps being places18:39
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lcukso why is there a /usr/ and a /home/user/   folders.   does the first usr mean user installed apps and the other mean the actual logged in user?18:42
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trulslcuk: yes18:43
trulslcuk: user is the default username18:43
trulsand /home/user is the users directory18:43
lcukand that is included in the default backup, or if i wanted to rsync it out i could just restore it later18:44
* lcuk reads "/home/user" as "c:\documents and settings\gary"18:45
trulsexactly18:45
jottmore "c:\documents and settings\user"18:46
trulsheh18:46
jottit's just that the os2008 default user is called "user" :)18:46
lcukahhhh - but on my 810 the username is actually "user" - if it was gary then the path would be /home/gary/18:46
jottyes ;)18:46
lcukw000t i might actually be starting to get it18:46
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lcuki should have done all this back in '98 when my amiga died, then i wouldnt have any of this windows rot in the way18:47
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GeneralAntillesHehe, lcuk is such a Windows user. :P18:49
lcukits kept me in a well paid job for a few years so i am happy.  now ive stumped up the cash for this its just a bit of untraining thats needed18:50
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jottGeneralAntilles: want to try the rotation support? http://sse2.net/rotate/ ? :)18:53
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lcukjott, does the xomap update work even if i dont have the rotated kernel in use - as in, can i install the xomap before i try the kernel it needs to do the switching, or can it only be installed with the rotated kernel in use19:03
jotthmm.. i *think* it should work without... let me try..19:04
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lcukim only pondering because if i do it all first, then *try* the kernel, will my system still be stable back on the normal kernel after a reboot19:04
jottyeah it works with the stock kernel..19:05
jottif you rotate then it get's a bit strange though ;P19:05
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lcukthats ok, one other thing - i am sure my kernel is meant to be rx-44 not 34.  i might be wrong but is there someway i can find out19:07
jotthm indeed..19:07
jottthey should be the same19:07
lcukisnt the difference regional encoding?19:08
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jotthm? where? in the kernel?!19:08
jottrx-34/rx-44 is just the codename for n800/n81019:09
lcukahhhh - i have only needed to know when looking at the keyboard maps19:09
lcukNokia-N810-50-2:~# /usr/bin/osso-product-info19:11
lcukOSSO_PRODUCT_HARDWARE='RX-44'19:11
lcukOSSO_PRODUCT_NAME='N810'19:11
lcukand more info, but im not gonna flood19:11
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jottlcuk: uname -a tells you about the running kernel19:14
lcukbut it doesnt tell me about the rx-34/rx-44 thing ;)19:14
Alendit_if someone wants to know - i get it working!!!19:14
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Alendit_that thing with wap19:14
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jottlcuk: because there is no difference in the kernel19:15
Alendit_i had to use profile AND x-wap-profile headers...19:15
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jottAlendit_: which provider? ;)19:15
Alendit_o2 germany19:15
lcukbut wont my device start to differentiate itself as an rx-34?19:15
Alendit_5 euro wap flat19:15
elbhardware rotation for fbreader would indeed be nice19:16
* lcuk would hate to lose his keyboard because of an off by 10 error ;)19:16
elbI'm not clear on why its rotated blit takes so long19:16
jottelb: http://sse2.net/rotate/ ;)19:16
lcukelb, its just slow as a frozen pizza19:16
lcukits not the actual speed - its the fact you see it drawing19:16
elbjott: yes, I'm already there, no need to spam the link19:16
jottlcuk: it's probably somewhere in /sys .. but still you do not need an other kernel..19:17
jottelb: sorry :P19:17
elblcuk: right -- as I said, I don't know why its blit takes so long19:17
jottmaybe he transforms the screen content with a floating point matrix :P19:18
elbI think it would probably seem faster if it performed the rotation and blitted all at once, but it's rendering and then performing the rotation directly into the window19:18
elb(it might actually *be* faster, too, due to fewer server roundtrips -- but I'm not willing to make that claim without looking)19:18
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lcukit appears as though the rotation is enablable on a per window basis and so if the correct switches can be triggered it should just be automatic19:20
lcukfbreader shouldnt even have to think about rotating anything19:20
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elbwell, the real benefit is hardware rotation19:22
elbregardless of how it gets there :-)19:23
lcuk100%19:23
jottor efficient font rendering :)19:23
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elbwell, yes -- if the server had efficient rotated font rendering, then I wouldn't care if it could rotate the display ;-)19:24
derfjott: Maemo-mapper does its rotation with a floating point matrix... and it's not that slow.19:24
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lcukwouldnt you just need to render a bitmap 256*maxfontwidth) before you start and then print each glyph as required (at least thats the route i have at present)19:25
jottderf: well for rotation in 90 degree steps its definitely slower than a transformation matrix ..19:25
lcukfloating point for only fixed point rotations?19:26
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lcukits not like we can select 63.5deg19:26
derflcuk: Uh... there's a heck of a lot more than 256 glyphs.19:26
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jottyou need intelligent glyph caching..19:26
* lcuk forgets books nowadays have fancy multiple fonts and sizes and crap like that19:27
elband not all books are in ASCII ;-)19:27
derfAnd some of us read Asian languages.19:27
lcuki suppose i will find out when i start reading more modern sci-fi - im still catching up on nivens books19:27
* lcuk is at about 197519:27
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derfNah... I haven't found much interesting sci-fi past the 80's.19:28
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elbthen you haven't read Stephenson ;-)19:30
lcukdont stephensons books just end quickly withou19:30
elbStephenson doesn't wrap up all of the side-plots, that's for sure19:31
elbhe produces text that's a lot like what one would expect if Robert Pirsig wrote fiction19:31
elbhis stories don't exactly have a beginning, middle, and end, except in that there is *some* main plot line which begins near the beginning and ends near the end19:32
lcuki found that out after reading a couple but didnt like it so moved back in time and started reading asimov and niven19:32
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derfI'm not a big Stephenson fan, but I did say I hadn't found _much_, not that I hadn't found _any_.19:32
lcuktho asimov is obsessed with his robots19:33
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* lcuk wonders why the hell he tied robots into foundation19:33
derfI'm not here to start a flamewar, so you can assume that whatever you like fits in the small "not much" category.19:33
lcuklol19:33
glassasimovs short robot stories would work with the robots just defined as persons who act totally within a ruleset.. they're fun stories19:34
elbthe heyday of scifi is definitely past19:34
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elbbut I don't think the proportion of good scifi to scifi production is particularly worse than it ever has been19:34
glassscifi for sake of scifi is pointless anyways19:34
elb(particularly if you include fantasy in scifi)19:34
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lcukweekly sci-fi is just like a soap opera with an alternative death scene (spaced instead of leaving the country)19:35
derfelb: Probably, but we haven't had time to forget about all the crap that's recent, yet.19:36
elbderf: haha, now that's likely19:36
derf20 years from now you'll know what books published now are worth reading.19:36
elbalthough often very good books never make the cut19:36
lcukits like wine - it matures with age. and good sci-fi is timeless19:36
elbwell, books that an *individual* might find very good19:37
elbbecause they don't have enough broad appeal19:37
derfelb: Maybe... but unless you're actively running out of books to read, I don't think this is a big problem.19:37
lcukgtg tea time19:37
derfI have more stuff to read than I'll ever have time for.19:37
elbno, simply a bit unfortunate19:37
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Alendit_did someone managed to get this new google interface for iphone on nokia?19:54
Alendit_i had it for some time, than i disapeared, no idea why19:54
NaviNew google interface?19:56
Alendit_j019:57
Alendit_just google 'iphone google'19:57
Alendit_you'll see it19:57
Alendit_but it's iphone exlusive19:57
Alendit_though you can use iphone useragent in order to make google think you're using iphone19:57
NaviI suppose you could change your, yeah.19:57
Alendit_j0, i did, but now google doen't recognize me as iphone anymore19:58
Alendit_no idea why19:58
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BTobotrasevening20:10
ulisesevening BTobotras20:10
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GnutoN810hi20:29
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Zicin the scratchbox, what metapackage I should install to have a complete Maemo environment ? and not only for compiling/linking/testing ?20:46
ZicI have to test some interface element20:46
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jkuZic what are you missing?20:54
Zicjku: some element of the default OS2008 on a N8*0 hardware20:55
Zicof the interface (applets, emailing, communication, default menus …)20:55
jkuthe SDK is for compiling linking and testing. It's not OS200820:55
elbmany of those softwares are not available20:55
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Zicjku: hmm, I do not want to break my OS2008 install on my device for testing a hack20:56
jkuwhat are you trying to test?20:56
ZicI have ever seen screenshots of complete Maemo interface running in a Xephyr environment, in a based Intel proc PC20:57
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jkumaemo yes, OS2008 no20:57
Zicok, thanks for your help :)20:57
ZicI speak about that, for example : http://blogs.gnome.org/lucasr/2007/02/09/hildon-desktop-scalability/20:59
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Zicis it simply possible, without link between PC and a N8*0 device ?20:59
jkuthat's hildon desktop on a laptop. I assume it's possible nowadays21:01
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jkuZic, just say what you'd like to do, maybe it is possible...21:02
Zicjku: I like to have a complete Maemo Desktop to test some graphical configuration, like some hack & trick to testing my skill21:04
Zicnow, I'm using the scratchbox only for compiling21:04
jkuSo you can run the desktop in xephyr, what exactly are you missing?21:05
Zicsome element like browser, emailing application, Note, player, explorer … I found it in the repository of the scratchbox, but I want to know if it exist a metapackage to install a "default" Hildon Desktop21:06
Zicor if exist a list of packages to install21:07
ZicI know that some parts are closed by Nokia21:07
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jkuthose are all just programs not parts of the desktop (and yes they are closed)21:08
Zicand in this case, the restricted meta package provided by Nokia repository s useful to me ?21:08
jkuit just has libraries21:08
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jku...if you're referring to the local nokia binary repo21:09
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Zichmm, ok thanks for your infos21:09
jottZic: you could try to dpkg-repack packages from the device and transfer them to scratchbox .. but there is no guarantee that those packages will work without further modifications..21:10
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ZicI'm orienting to a solution to install the maximum of pieces (Desktop & Applications) that are free on the OS2008, manually, I don't care about some piece that are closed, in fact, thanks ;)21:12
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jottZic: yeah sadly enough nokia is not what you would consider an open source company..21:13
Zicso, I will use package provided by my distribution21:13
Zicjott: yeah, but it still good work, it's better than a completely closed platform21:13
ZicI think they'll do the same errors with Trolltech's platform (Qtopia), like include some pieces of closed software, sadly …21:15
Zicin their phones21:15
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jottwell qtopia is completely open now..21:16
Zicbut Nokia can add some pieces of their proprietary in Qtopia, like they did in Maemo :/21:17
Zictheir proprietary software*21:17
jottsure..21:17
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scriptjku: you've got mail21:28
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hrwelo21:39
jkuscript, haven't got it but I guess what it's about :(21:40
jkuscript, sorry about that21:40
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jkuI sent about 20 bug reports on the same issue this evening and you just slipped in there21:40
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scriptjku: that's alright ;)21:50
scriptjku: i was just beginning to compare the two strings byte per bytes and couldn't see the fault ;)21:51
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Tu13esdoes anyone know were I can get either the gui or cmdline flasher for OS X?22:08
Tu13esthere are no links in the wiki22:08
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jkuhttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/d3.php22:12
jkuTu13es, bleb.org probably has the unofficial GUI22:13
milhousequick question: is anyone able to access www.youtube.com? for me it appears to be down22:13
milhousegetting connection timeouts...22:13
milhouseall other sites appear ok22:13
jkumilhouse, same here22:14
milhousewierd eh?22:14
milhousei wonder if it's scheduled maintenance or DDoS22:14
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jkumilhouse, maybe something went horribly wrong: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080224/world/denmark_media_islam_pakistan_internet_youtube22:18
milhousefunnily enough i was just looking at that on the BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7261727.stm22:19
milhouseand the same thought occurred to me :)22:19
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milhouseCould a DDoS attack by fundamentalists...22:20
milhouses/Could/Could be/22:20
infobotmilhouse meant: Could be a DDoS attack by fundamentalists...22:20
milhouseor my ISP in London is a Pakistani sympathiser (Zen - based in Rochdale, you never know...)22:20
milhouseer... not London... UK22:21
milhouseI'd have thought it would take a lot of effort to bring down youtube - don't really know how they're setup but would have thought they'd have a pretty resilient infrastructure22:22
Tama^2Hello22:23
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livindedhttp://europe.nokia.com/A4680127 shows that the latest version of the firmware is 2.2007.51-3 but I can't find the image on maemo.org, is it hidden somewhere else?22:26
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milhousehttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/22:28
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Tama^2milhouse: are you still there?22:37
milhousehi22:38
Tama^2Hi :)22:38
Tama^2I run some power consumptions tests on my n80022:38
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Tama^2because I suspected it was drawing too much power22:39
Tama^2apparently when sdcards are inserted22:39
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Tama^2the battery lasts only 1/10th compared to when no sd cards are inserted22:39
Tama^2it happens even if I umount them22:40
Tama^2(the tests are run with the screen locked, offline, no metalayer running, no apps, no desktop applets)22:40
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milhouseodd22:40
milhousebefore you said you had unmounted them I'd have said you were having a problem with metalayer-crawler22:41
milhouselasing only 1/10th suggests something is hammering on the CPU and not letting it sleep22:42
Tama^2yep22:42
Tama^2same conclusion except the load is 022:42
milhouseanything in dmesg? i really don't know what else to suggest22:43
jotthttp://www.drlinux.it/maemo/battery_consumption.html22:43
Tama^2yeah that is the *incomplete* tests I ran22:43
jottah it's yours. :)22:44
milhousewhat make of SD cards?22:45
Tama^2yes I have run MAY more tests but eneded up being frustrated and did not publish them22:45
milhouseI don't have any problems with 4GB and 8GB SDHC Transcend cards22:45
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milhouseFrom what you are saying, it appears that the presence of SD cards in the slot(s) is the key factor22:46
Tama^2I have 4: 2xA-Data (16Gb) , 1xA-Data (4Gb), 1x"Nokia" 128Mb22:46
Tama^2yes that is what seems to emerge from the tests22:46
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Tama^2BUT the battery monitor is not-so-reliable...22:47
milhouseWhat's your battery like with the Nokia card?22:47
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Tama^2I was wondering: is there someone working on the table t @ Nokia that would read and listen and give it an honest thought?22:47
milhouseI ran mine down until it began bleeping22:47
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Tama^2I have the log for the nokia card test at home, I will dig it out but basically I get the same results22:49
Tama^24% per hour when 2 cards (of any kind are connected)22:49
Tama^22% per hour when 1 card is connected22:49
Tama^20.2% when no sd card is inserted22:49
milhousestock kernel?22:50
milhousehave you tried Philip Langdales modified kernel?22:50
Tama^2yes22:50
Tama^2then tried the modified kernel to get extra logging about mmcs22:50
milhousebut no difference in power consumption between either kernel?22:50
Tama^2no difference22:50
milhouseok... i suppose that's good22:50
milhousei don't know what else could be the problem... unless it's a hardware issue?22:51
Tama^2the extra logging tells me that both cards go to power mode 3 when the tablet is idle22:51
sp3000have you tried with a completely unmodified setup, say, with no files on cards to quiet down the crawler?22:52
sp3000no weird rd flags etc22:52
Tama^2the crawler was stopped altogether22:53
milhouser&d mode enabled might use a tad more power, or so it's claimed22:53
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Tama^2r&d mode is not enabled22:53
milhouseand the filesystems on the cards are all ok? no corruption?22:53
Tama^2(and the cards were unmounted anyway)22:54
sp3000sure, but any random change could onceivably have any random effect22:54
milhouseyeah, but still... the tablets do silly things at times so just asking :)22:54
sp3000not necessarily in the expected direction22:54
Tama^2they are fine (I checked them) but they are umounted :)22:54
Tama^2xD22:54
Tama^2they have a life on their own22:54
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milhouseprobably worth posting in the dev mailing list and hoping that someone like igor picks it up22:55
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Tama^2this one? maemo-developers@maemo.org22:56
milhouseyes22:56
Tama^2great, thanks22:57
milhousenp22:57
sp3000what sort of frequency do you have on the logging, and does the amount depend on the amount of cards?22:57
Tama^2you mean: power consumption logging?22:58
Tama^2I log the battery charge every 60 minutes22:58
sp3000any activity that might occur frequently :)22:58
sp3000what fs?22:58
sp3000oh, yeah, unmounted22:59
Tama^2:)22:59
Tama^2FAT anyway22:59
Tama^2an unrelated an possibly harmless thing I see in dmesg whenver I boot or whenever I insert a card is an error when accessing the card the first time.23:00
Tama^2it happens with all cards (the original one as well)23:00
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hrw~curse nokia for not packing HH-12 with n81023:04
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, nokia for not packing HH-12 with n810 !23:04
* sp3000 hands infobot a comma23:04
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NaviI'm not a fan of suction holders23:05
NaviI prefer real mounts23:05
Tama^2https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2637#c1623:05
Tama^2Navi: real man prefer real mounts?23:06
Tama^2xD23:06
sp3000Tama^2: I guess my instinct would be to get a default-stock-everything baseline, like flash and have relatively blank cards and no logging and see if it lasts over the 25h or so a 4% of total / h would give you23:06
NaviTama^2, of course, how else can you hold it steady?23:06
sp3000to rule out anything doing something counterintuitively silly23:07
NaviSuction cups can only hold it up for so long, but with my reckless driving, it falls down.23:07
Navis/, but w/.  W/23:07
infobotNavi meant: Suction cups can only hold it up for so long.  With my reckless driving, it falls down.23:07
Tama^2navi: where do you live? if I may23:08
NaviTexas, USA.23:08
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Tama^2sp3000: I will run more tests when I have time and feel inspired ;)23:08
* sp3000 grumbles at the commenter in that bug23:08
Tama^2OK, /me dial the authorities to report Navi U,u23:08
Navi /o\23:09
milhouseTama^2 - it probably would be worth flashing with the last OS 2007 and testing that to try and rule out hardware23:09
milhouseif you have no probs with 2007, but have a problem with 2008, then perhaps someone can start narrowing down where the change occurred23:09
Tama^2flashing again? noooooooooooooooes xD23:09
Tama^2OK, I will do that23:10
milhousei know... :(23:10
Tama^2is the image available on maemo or do I have to dig it up form Nokia's site?23:10
milhousebut if you're going to be doing tests where you re-flash with 2008 from scratch, it shouldn't make much difference if you also reflash with 200723:10
sp3000everything's on tablets-dev23:10
milhouseshould be here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php23:11
sp3000(for mixing up symptoms from an issue not experienced as a regression with a bug clearly labeled as a regression)23:11
milhouseFull path: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php?f=RX-34_2007SE_4.2007.38-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin23:11
livindedwhat's the difference between miniSD and miniSDHC?23:11
sp3000HC23:12
sp3000:P23:12
sp3000"high capacity"23:12
NaviThe let. . . oh, you beat me to it.23:12
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Tama^2they are addressed by sector23:12
sp3000the non-hc cards only go up to n gigabytes23:12
Tama^2hence the higher capacity23:12
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livindedare patriot cards any good? I'm thinking about picking up http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220295 for my n81023:13
hrwnormal SD are to 4GB only23:13
hrwSDHC are 4-32GB now23:13
hrwand many devices with SD slot have problem with any cards larger then 1GB :D23:13
tank-manlivinded, i have 2 patriot class 6 sdhc cards and they are pretty good23:14
tank-man8gb and 16gb23:14
jgombossome normal SD go to 8GB (but violate the standard)23:14
jgombosThose chips are valued by Palm users, because Palm does not support SDHC23:15
NaviSame with 423:15
livindedI figure 8 gig is probably good enough23:15
jgombosActually Navi, 4GB may be what I meant23:15
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NaviMmk23:15
NaviI've never seen a regular 8GB SD.23:15
jgombosI just know that Palm users were able to exceed the limit one step that way23:15
jgombosAnd I think you're right.. because 2GB is the limit for PALM TX23:16
jgomboss/limit/official limit/23:16
infobotjgombos meant: And I think you're right.. because 2GB is the official limit for PALM TX23:16
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jgombostank-man: what's "class 6"?  Is that what specifies speed?23:17
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hrwjgombos: yes23:18
hrw~curse nokia for lack of dc-4 and hh-12 ;D23:19
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, nokia for lack of dc-4 and hh-12 ;D !23:19
Tama^2someone has taken infobot over23:20
Tama^2mighty h4xx0r xD23:20
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jgomboswhat are you folks talking about?  dc-4?23:20
* jott hands jgombos a google image search for nokia dc-423:21
lcukyou know, thats actually more typing than just saying "car charger"23:22
jgombosha, yeah, and it didn't even come w/ a search string!23:22
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jottsure it came: nokia dc-423:23
jottlcuk: well because people should use search engines first to get answers :)23:23
lcukbut if we were just talking at a party i wouldnt send them off to go find answers - it helps conversation to just drop in things you know, and more natural for people to just ask if they dont know something simple23:25
jgombosdc-4 could be an airplane model though.. so I'd still be tempted to ask for a search string23:25
jottlcuk: we are not at a usual party. we are in the internet :P23:25
* lcuk will always help to put things in context, saving google for entire subjects23:25
jottjgombos: i gave you the search string in my first "answer" :)23:26
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jgombosSomeone really needs to come up with a better way to power external devices in the car23:27
hrwhttp://blog.haerwu.biz/2008/02/24/bought-car/23:27
jgombosI have a pile of these damn cigarette splitters23:27
lcukwind powered?   regenerative braking?23:27
jgombosI'm just talking about cosmetics23:28
lcukin car usb support would be nice, at least one port per seat - and a network plug, and while we are at it, can i have one of those little hula dancing people23:28
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jgombosThe power from the battery is fine23:29
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jgombosIt needs to be like a power squid.. but w/ retractible cables23:29
lcukcould you put a small array of cig lighter sockets somewhere out of the way?23:29
jottwhat i miss most is a flux capacitor23:30
jgombosyeah, that's the best opion right now.. but where ever I stash that ratty mess, there will still be a bunch of cables protruding from it23:30
lcukbut that melted the electronics when i tried running it from the ciggy socket23:30
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jgombosEven better would be an inductive charger built into the cradles23:31
lcukuntil you put your money there and watch as a molten blob of metal falls on your foot23:31
jgomboshuh?23:32
Tama^2"Map application which comes with device has very poor maps of Poland"23:32
jgomboshow would that happen?23:32
Tama^2believe, it applies to *maby* other places too!23:32
Tama^2s/maby/many/23:32
infobotTama^2 meant: believe, it applies to *many* other places too!23:32
lcukhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_heating23:32
Tama^2s/believe,/believe me,/23:33
infobotTama^2 meant: believe me, it applies to *maby* other places too!23:33
Tama^2mmmm let's see if I can find something else wrong in that sentence >.>23:33
jgombosu only get one correction23:34
Tama^2I noticed23:34
jgombosthen the infobot ignores it23:34
Tama^2it goes back to the first one to apply substitutions23:34
NaviTama sucks23:35
Navis/sucks/rules/23:35
infobotNavi meant: Tama rules23:35
Navis/sucks/really sucks/23:35
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infobotNavi meant: Tama really sucks23:35
Navis/Tama/Tama^2/23:35
infobotNavi meant: Tama^2 sucks23:35
* Tama^2 hits navi with an electrocuting stick23:35
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Tama^2zZZzzZzot23:36
jgombosi was hoping to find a cradle for the NIT at ram-mount.com23:38
jgombosthey are just not on the ball23:38
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NaviOoh, they suck.23:39
jgombosthe hh-12 certainly doesn't impress me23:39
jgombosI'd hate to depend on something that sucks23:40
Navi:323:40
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lcukdont you get onje with 81023:46
lcuk-j23:46
EruditeHermithey does anyone know of a timer app for maemo?23:47
NaviTimer?23:47
EruditeHermitstopwatch23:47
Naviah23:47
Tama^2there is an egg timer app ;)23:48
Tama^2I want mine well done thanks23:48
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EruditeHermitwhat is it called?23:48
Tama^2eggtimer >.>23:48
Tama^2http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/eggtimer/23:49
jgombosThere's a stopwatch tool for PalmOS called Bobs Alarm.. might work in garnetVM23:49
NaviI loved messing with egg timers23:49
Navireal ones, when I was five23:50
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Tama^2me too, set them up and hide them somewhere improbable and wait for it go off and scare grandma23:50
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Tama^2>.>23:50
jgombossounds pretty silly.  It's easy to know when an egg is ready just by eye balling it23:50
EruditeHermitno one has made a native timer app23:51
EruditeHermiterr stopwatch23:52
jgomboss/silly/useful23:53
NaviI can't tell when an egg is ready]23:53
NaviI always end up overcooking them.23:53
jgombosyeah, i just realized it was for boiling them23:54
jgombosI was thinking frying23:54
Navi. . . .23:54
Navi>_>23:54
EruditeHermitwell timers have more use than eggs23:54
NaviI don't know, eggs are pretty useful.23:54
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Tama^2I do not remember last time I ate an egg23:54
NaviAn egg's most effective use is as a weapon.23:55
Tama^2when it is rotten, yes23:55
EruditeHermitI can't remember when I last ate a timer23:55
Tama^2if it's not it is orders of magnitude less effective23:55
NaviEven when it's not rotten, at high noon during the summer.23:56
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Tama^2I cannot remember lat time I ate an Erudite or an Hermit for that matter23:56
NaviI've eaten Tama.23:56
pupnikif you're having trouble reading colored text in scratchbox vi, type :colorscheme <space> and then tab repeatedly through available colorschemes - for e.g. i like 'elflord' for readability23:56
Tama^2Navi: true true, especially in TX :P23:56
pupnikor 'evening'23:57
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NaviI wish I had colored text.23:57
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derfI prefer :colorscheme ron23:58
hrwI prefer murphy/ron and sometimes peachpuff23:58
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derfAnything that doesn't use that horrible dark blue on black.23:59

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