IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2008-02-06

GeneralAntillesHopefully the end of our server troubles is near.00:00
dererkGeneralAntilles, I don't get it00:00
GeneralAntillesWork is underway to fix the servers.00:01
dererkgreat to hear that00:01
lcuk_3now, since i have been poking at this for the last hour and can't get it working...00:02
GeneralAntillesJust be glad you weren't here for the initial OS2008 beta release. <_<00:03
GeneralAntillesRemember, remember the 26th of November. . . .00:03
lcuk_3could someone try and test a small compile for 810 chinook armel in scratchbox00:03
dererkGeneralAntilles, where this problems on that time?00:03
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GeneralAntillestablets-dev, Extras, and Garage were basically unreachable for two weeks.00:04
dererk<ironic> nice work Nokia!00:04
dererk</ironic :P>00:04
GeneralAntillesSo thousands of people were trying to get the OS2008 release and mostly couldn't00:04
lcuk_3i was speaking to pupnik yesterday and he said would be a good base program but i cant get it going00:04
GeneralAntillesthose that did couldn't install any software.00:04
GeneralAntillesYeah, it was fun.00:05
dererkGeneralAntilles, it's soooo patetic!00:05
lcuk_3i grabbed all the source from svn and have kinda sussed how to compile it, but it wont link :(00:05
GeneralAntillesThe poor maemo guys are way understaffed, underfunded, and undersupported.00:05
dererklcuk_3, ://00:05
dererkYeah! that's so true in opensource community :/00:05
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GeneralAntillesThe glacial movement of big corporate entities doesn't help matters, either.00:06
dererkand with the excellent work the did/do/will still be doing!00:06
dererkit's so blameful...00:06
dererkGeneralAntilles, i fully agree00:06
pupniklcuk_3: if you copy/paste your errors to something like I might be able to help00:07
lcuk_3ok pup, thx00:08
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ds3any word on if a OS2008HE for the 770 is underway?00:10
GeneralAntillesIt is.00:10
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lcuk_3   i had to make changes to n770-triangels.c to get it compiling (code bug), but the rest is as i obtained from cvs00:10
ds3is there a page on it?00:11
lcuk_3it compiled all modules the first time i ran it but failed at same point each time00:11
GeneralAntillesThere's an announcement on somewhere.00:11
GeneralAntillesI'm sure google would turn up something.00:11
dererkgoogle SU-18_2007HACKER_4.2007.46-3_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin00:11
dererk(it's the latest I think)00:11
ds3think a 770 would be nicely recycled into a CAR pc type app00:11
GeneralAntillesds3, ebook reader and media remote.00:11
* dererk sighs... he istill using it as _new_ in .ar00:12
pupniknice error lcuk_3 :) never saw that00:12
pupnikthis is also strange00:12
ds3GeneralAntilles: I want a CarPC anyways00:12
dererk15' minutes to target00:12
lcuk_3yes, there is no compile/make00:12
ds3biggest hurdle for what I want is a reliable USB host mode on the 77000:13
lcuk_3its not a simple little thing, the perl mod compiles whatevers in the subfolders00:13
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dererkplease no!00:13
ds3that's also the reason why the 770 is superior to the N800 (lack of a bracket covering it and the location of the jacks is on the bottom00:13
* dererk suffered the worse day of the year with perl today00:13
lcuk_3all i wanted was a simple base progr with standard build options so i could see how it all went together and start coding rather than faffing00:13
JaffaWoohoo, USB host on my N810 using the standard cable from Nokia, a USB female/female adapter, a 1GB thumb drive and the poking of a /sys device. Open File Manager: bingo :-)00:14
pupniklcuk_3: well as that is pretty non-standard i'd say 'meh' and move on to something else00:14
ds3Jaffa: 1G is such small thing to have as a thumb drive!00:14
lcuk_3jaffa, its nice isnt it :) tho my keyboard crashes nokia if i press keys from different segments of the board - i think it takes the current too high00:15
JaffaOne from work00:15
ds31G thumb drive don't typically have a good storage:volume ratio compared to say a 16G SDHC card00:15
* Jaffa shrugs. It's small. It's free.00:16
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ds3oh it is the storage:cost ratio here hehe00:16
Redline`lipoly isn't the future. it has a lower cycle count are typically are more fragile. the future will be the LiIon batteries that use nanowires.00:17
Redline`a little late in the convo, but I thought I'd put my two cents in. :P00:17
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lcuk_3you mean the super capacitors :)00:17
Redline`super caps are already here.00:17
ds3fuel cell cartridges00:18
* Jaffa needs to find a cheap place to get a Linksys USB100M in the UK for an Ethernet enabled N81000:18
GeneralAntillesI like fuel cell.00:18
ds3now if someone would make a nice little one using ethanol/propanol/methanol00:19
GeneralAntillesActually, really, really, small internal combustion engines would work for me, too.00:19
elbthe real shine for lipo is weight/power00:19
elball the RC aircraft stuff is moving to it00:19
Redline`yeah, the weight factor is nice.00:19
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Redline`it'd be nice if they could incorporate nanowires in lipoly.00:20
ds3small ICE? ones that generate more heat then the ARM processor it powers? =)00:20
GeneralAntillesHell yeah!00:20
dererkGeneralAntilles, small, like a "small bunch of fire" ? :P00:20
GeneralAntillesThen use that heat to manufacture more power.00:20
ds3elb: the problem there is a little 'oops' with charging and you have a big problem00:21
GeneralAntillestiny steam generators.00:21
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lcuk_3output from new AMD processor: hot coffee00:21
pupnikdevelopers need to be careful what Section: they use - polluting the app manager with misspelled or stupid sections is bad bad bad00:21
Jaffayet another reason to have gatekeepers00:22
GeneralAntillesWe should fit all developers with tasers.00:22
BlafaselTHe app manager is bad bad bad? ;)00:22
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dererk7' to target :D00:22
pupnikwell for me, user/Games is not hard to remember00:22
dererkpupnik, hehe00:22
pupnikergh, others suggest lowercase user/games :(00:24
Navipew pew00:25
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perrito666good afternoon00:25
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dererkperrito666, hey! :D00:26
perrito666dererk: you are everywhere :D00:26
dererkLike trash :D00:26
dererkehm, I meant, god :P00:26
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perrito666dererk: you don't happent to know how to suspend a n800 don't you?00:27
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* pupnik hands perrito666 some twine00:27
dererkperrito666, I don't :S00:27
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GeneralAntillesperrito666, the watchdog will kill it if you do.00:27
dererkflasher v0.8.1 (Jan  5 2007)00:28
dererkSuitable USB device not found, waiting00:28
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GeneralAntillesIs the device on?00:28
perrito666pupnik: that sounds strongly like tea+wine00:28
dererkGeneralAntilles, yes00:28
GeneralAntillesBooted to a desktop?00:28
dererkdmesg | grep nokia -> scsi 6:0:0:0: Direct-Access     Nokia    770              0308 PQ: 0 ANSI: 200:28
dererkGeneralAntilles, yeas00:28
dererkGeneralAntilles, yes *00:28
GeneralAntillesTurn it off.00:28
perrito666GeneralAntilles: so I have to boot and shut down this thing each time?00:28
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GeneralAntillesperrito666, just lock it and put it in offline mode.00:29
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dererkperrito666, my quite-used n770 when blank-screening lasts about 12 hours00:29
GeneralAntillesdererk, turn it off, plug it in, make sure flasher is waiting, then turn it on.00:29
perrito666dererk: ouch00:29
dererkperrito666, yours might last even longer :P00:29
perrito666I mean wow00:30
GeneralAntilles7-12 days idle is normal.00:30
GeneralAntillesassuming no runaway processes and offline mode.00:30
GeneralAntilles1-3-ish days connected to wifi00:30
* perrito666 has symptoms of needing to go out of his office00:31
perrito666GeneralAntilles: nice00:31
dererkGeneralAntilles, no luck either00:31
GeneralAntillesGenerally speaking, perrito666, standby is kinda pointless for these devices.00:31
GeneralAntillesARM is incredibly power-efficient.00:31
dererkGeneralAntilles, great!00:31
dererkGeneralAntilles, (did work)00:31
dererk<GeneralAntilles> ARM is incredibly power-efficient. <-- I see that!00:32
GeneralAntillesThey're intended to be left on 24/7.00:32
perrito666GeneralAntilles: I did know that, but I wasn't sure how power saving would this gadget go by locking it00:32
dererkpretty nice00:32
pupniki have to give credit to the people for the great tutorials00:32
Redline`in offline mode, the osso-rtcomm/chat app eats CPU trying to find out if the network is up. either that or it's constantly trying to register your accounts.00:33
GeneralAntillesBasically as power-saving as it gets.00:33
perrito666GeneralAntilles: :)00:33
GeneralAntilleswifi is incredibly efficient, too.00:33
pupnikagree GeneralAntilles00:33
GeneralAntillesset the device down for a few seconds without stuff running and it's about as idle as it'll get.00:34
Redline`ever since I put on the new rtcomm package, my batt doesn't last more than two and one-half days. so yesterday I disabled the accounts. batt status was normal with 8 days standby.00:34
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GeneralAntillesRedline`, it _is_ a beta release. :P00:34
dererkyeah, I agreed too00:34
perrito666GeneralAntilles: cut me some slack :D my last portable device was a zire3100:34
Redline`I know this. :P00:34
dererkIt does not even get hot!00:34
Redline`My statement was more of a warning. :P00:34
GeneralAntillesperrito666, I'm just edumacating. ;)00:34
perrito666GeneralAntilles: it is good to know00:35
derfI mean, I walked arouned Tokyo using maemo-mapper and BT GPS for 14 hours the other day, and the battery lasted the whole time.00:35
perrito666I really got lost when I didn't found a "go to sleep" button or link00:35
derfThe N810 seems to do much better than the N800.00:35
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perrito666derf: cool00:35
GeneralAntillesderf, probably more of a configuration issue.00:36
Redline`derf, that's because of the BT GPS that you use on the N80000:36
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Redline`whereas, the n810 has it on board.00:36
derfRedline`: No, I was using the same BT GPS on the N810.00:36
derfI've yet to get the internal one to work.00:36
derfBest I ever got was 4 satellites.00:36
perrito666derf: I really wanted to go for a 810 but the relation availability/price on .ar is not really nice00:37
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derfGeneralAntilles: Possibly... there's less crap installed since I just got it.00:37
dererkGreat! flashing!00:37
dererkGeneralAntilles, Tak, lcuk_3 thanks for all the fish!00:37
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dererklcuk_3, loooooool00:38
dererklcuk_3, hahaha00:38
GeneralAntillesThere's not really enough different hardware-wise for a really major difference in battery life to be possible.00:38
lcuk_3is it same model battery?00:39
GeneralAntillesBut the capacity really isn't any different.00:39
GeneralAntillesBasically a change in shape.00:39
lcuk_3that could make all the difference, its not just capacity, but the way a specific battery handles drain and charge possibly?00:40
dererkGeneralAntilles, quick question :)00:41
dererkflashing utility says "flash completed"00:41
GeneralAntillesDid you do -R ?00:42
dererkbut my device is still on "booting screen"00:42
dererkGeneralAntilles, crap... INSTALL file didn't said that :S00:42
infobotdererk meant: GeneralAntilles, damn... INSTALL file didn't said that :S00:42
GeneralAntillesJust run: flasher-3.0 -R00:42
dererkGeneralAntilles, now?00:42
GeneralAntilles-R for restart00:42
dererkGeneralAntilles, :D00:42
dererksame kernel booting now :S00:43
Redline`anyone using a class6 sd card as their boot mmc?00:44
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GeneralAntillesYes, Redline`, though not as primary.00:44
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perrito666ok gtg, thanks for your help :D00:45
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Redline`is the bootup/app loading time worth the investment to get a class6?00:45
dererkGeneralAntilles, Thanks again00:45
dererkNow flashing is completed00:45
GeneralAntillesGenerally speaking, a 150x SD card is probably faster than a class 6 card00:45
GeneralAntillesbut, no, you wont really notice the speed difference booting from SD.00:45
GeneralAntillesSD is just my backup/Debian partitions.00:46
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Redline`see that's my experience, but another co-worker said that his boots up faster with his SD card.00:46
Redline`I just really didn't see a diff.00:46
pupnik  aha there are valid subsections00:46
dererkOh, nice look&&feel the HE :D00:48
GeneralAntillesFind and install the Plankton theme.00:49
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pupnikls -1 /scratchbox/...../projects |wc -l00:51
dererkdefault is a dark blue&&black00:51
dererkis that?00:51
GeneralAntillesOS2008 has been the only ITOS release so far to not come with an horrifyingly ugly default theme selection.00:51
dererkohhhhh, I love this new version!00:52
* dererk is now happy ^.^00:52
GeneralAntillesDefault on OS2007 is "Adria"00:52
GeneralAntillesand it's ugly. :P00:52
dererklet me check which am i00:52
GeneralAntillesIf it's blue and black00:52
GeneralAntillesit's Adria.00:53
dererkyeas, Adria00:53
dererkGeneralAntilles, I'll follow your advice00:53
steeldoes anyone know how to persuade maemo mapper to use the built in GPS on the N810?00:53
GeneralAntillesThere's also a 14pt for the wimpy blind folks.00:53
dererkI _love_ this new feature of "darking" screen00:53
GeneralAntillesand a regular 18pt for the really blind folks.00:54
GeneralAntillessteel, Bluetooth00:54
GeneralAntillesno MAC.00:54
infobotdererk meant: hahaha00:54
dererkthanks infobot00:54
pupnikcompared to most user generated themes, the nokia themes are all good00:55
GeneralAntillespupnik, lies. :P00:55
dererkpupnik, ehmmm, partially :P00:55
dererkdefault ones are scaring :P00:55
GeneralAntillesPlankton and the Nuvo series were both much better than the defaults.00:55
steelGeneralAntilles: working now, many thanks00:55
dererkoh, I died :)00:55
dererkhardware keyboard control00:55
dererki died of happiness00:56
pupnikNokia themes don't break the tablet.  Nuvo does.00:56
dererkI used Nuvo, good one indeed00:56
dererkBut when chatting, colors dark the text00:56
pupnikOtherwise i think it's great00:56
GeneralAntillesWhat in the world did Nuvo break?00:56
dererkunless on my old firm00:56
ds3i am surprised how well os2008 works with fingers (instead of a stylus)00:56
dererkGeneralAntilles, in my case (with the old firm), it make chatting text unreadable00:57
pupnika long list of things GeneralAntilles.  I don't have names for all the regions.  Icons and bootscreen also.00:57
GeneralAntillesI used Nuvo for a long time.00:57
pupnikkonttori will be receiving screenshots00:57
GeneralAntillesNever had any problem.00:57
pupnikthat's the nature of things.  problems don't always appear consistently00:58
GeneralAntillesPlankton looks better anyway.00:58
dererkWhich is the default "lock code" now on the latest HE firm?00:58
pupniknuvoblack is my favorite.  no more ugly white border around xterm00:58
GeneralAntillesThat doesn't change with firmware flashes, though.00:58
dererkGeneralAntilles, Incorrect :S00:58
dererkthanks for that tip00:58
dererkyeap they don't00:59
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dererkoh men, I'm exploting of happiness with this new release :D00:59
dererk(not literarly :) )00:59
dererkGeneralAntilles, again, many thanks pal01:00
* elb laughs at all this talk about font sizes, as if the tablet's fonts aren't completely assed beyond all usefulness01:01
elbI have no idea what it is about people that they cannot get it through their heads that font sizes MEAN something, and X server DPIs MEAN something01:01
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elbyes -- an 18pt font on the tablet should, by all rights, be exactly 18pt high01:02
GeneralAntillesOh, right.01:02
GeneralAntillesThat. :P01:02
elbbut some genius decided to totally lie about the display DPI01:02
elbI would blame Nokia, but ... no longer properly honors DisplaySize in recent versions01:02
GeneralAntillesProbably easier than actually fixing things to make it work right.01:02
elbso the disease is not theirs alone01:02
elbno, it's Really Easy to get right -- just tell the X display what its dot pitch *really is*, and pango gets it right01:03
* GeneralAntilles is assuming there's a logical reason they choose not to do it that way.01:03
elbthen if you set your font to "9pt" or whatever on every machine yo uhave ... it's the same physical size on the screen, on every machine you have01:03
elbgeneral ignorance and stupidity, I suspect01:03
elbas with most other recent X11 blunders01:04
johnxelb, Xomap has -dpi 96 passed to it :P01:04
elbjohnx: I saw that it does in scratchbox ... does it on the tablet, as well?01:04
Redline`steel, GPSd was being used to allow onboard GPS use with maemo-mapper. but according to 2.2 automagically start it (provided it's installed).01:04
johnxelb, yup :D01:04
elbso it IS nokia stupidity, and not the X server01:04
johnxtraditionally the XUL parts of firefox do not cope well with dpi's that are far away from 9601:05
johnxI think the rendering engine part gets it I'm kind of at a loss to explain it01:05
GeneralAntillesIf only everything were clear and logical.01:06
johnxI'd settle for a couple things being clear and logical01:06
elbthat's unfortunate ... because it's closer to 220x202 DPI01:06
elbbased on my quick calculations with a scale01:07
elbif it reported 200dpi, fonts would be Pretty Darn Close to correct01:07
GeneralAntilles225dpi for N80001:07
GeneralAntillesLittle higher for N810, I think.01:07
elbI think the displays are identical01:07
johnxN810's is a little smaller, right?01:07
elbI just measured with a scale and di the math (on my n810) and got the above numbers01:08
elbjohnx: I was under the impression that the *housing* is smaller, but the display is identical01:08
elbbut I've never held an n800, so I don't know01:08
pupnikN810 display is a bit smaller than 770 at least01:08
johnxI don't know either01:08
GeneralAntillesI think the display is smaller.01:09
GeneralAntillesBut I don't actually know.01:09
* pupnik goes to redo some horrible sound effects01:09
GeneralAntillesThere's not a lot of room around the edge of the N800's LCD for a 4.15" to 4.1" change.01:09
elbahh a more precise calculation gives me 226.5x227.501:09
johnxyeah...I would assume square pixels given that it's an LCD01:10
lcddoften it looks as if font hinting only works properly at 96 dpi01:10
elband the actual *pixel surface* size I measure at 4 34/64 x 2 7/6401:10
elbsorry, 3 34/6401:10
lcddso that 90 or 98 dpi, while correct, look ugly01:10
elbwith a diagonal of 4 7/6401:11
johnxI blame windows for the ridiculous DPI situation...01:11
elbjohnx: yes, the difference from square is quite possibly from parallax and my measurement accuracy01:11
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GeneralAntillesWindows is such a wonderfully convenient scapegoat.01:12
elband yet, it really has done so much damage01:13
jeff1fHow so?01:13
elbat one time, macs actually *had* 72dpi screens, giving them 1pt = 1px01:13
elbjeff1f: it's Really Really Dumb about its display characteristics01:13
GeneralAntilles. . . because most everything is actually its fault. ;)01:14
elbgoing back to people having monitors for which they had no idea what numbers to enter ... so Microsoft started just making crap up01:14
johnxGeneralAntilles, IIRC the whole 96dpi thing actually originated in Windows...01:14
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elbto be fair, even modern displays mostly lie about their physical size in their probing craps01:15
johnxhow modern?01:15
* elb ponders fixing his Xomap invocation to see how badly it breaks01:15
GeneralAntillesDo it.01:15
johnxEverything I've had for the last several years has worked just fine01:15
elbjohnx: well ... find your newest display, fireup X11, and look at what the display tells it, and you tell me ;-)01:15
johnxelb, alright. I'm sitting at it right now. :)01:16
elbit's my experience that they're often off by several cm or more01:16
* johnx finds tape measure...01:16
elb(X11 reports in mm)01:16
elbyes, that's right -- it reports display size in mm and dot pitch in DPI01:16
elbGo Metrics Go!01:16
dererkDo you think using virtual paging to memory card is valuable?01:17
johnxcorrect down to the mm :P01:17
elbjohnx: nice!01:17
elbwho made it?01:17
johnxelb, Benq01:17
johnxbut it's someone elses actual LCD panel I'm sure...01:17
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elbhuh, DISPLAY_DPI is in /etc/osso-af-init/x-server.defs01:18
johnxdererk, yes, but remember that flash memory (aka SD cards) have a limited number of write cycles...01:18
dererkuhm, right01:18
elbthe internal card shouldn't, right?01:18
GeneralAntillesITOS's swappiness is quite low by default.01:18
elbbecause it's NOR and not NAND or whichever?01:19
dererki didn't took that into account01:19
GeneralAntilles770 in this case.01:19
elbyeah, I was thinking n81001:19
dererkGeneralAntilles, you're right01:19
elbhaha these fonts are HUGE01:19
GeneralAntillesdererk, with the amount of swapping that ITOS does, it's incredibly unlikely that you'll wear out a flash card before the end of its useful lifetime.01:19
dererkyes, you're right01:20
dererkI forgot it's quite slow at I/O'ing01:20
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elbyeah, boy, this messes EVERYTHING up01:22
johnxelb, sad :(01:22
elba fixed theme would help01:22
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elbbut inter-line spacing seems to be incorrect, as well01:22
pupniki want better fonts for os2008 xterm01:23
pupnikthat courier-like one is not so good01:23
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GeneralAntillesI'd like to have Monaco 9, but I can't figure out how to turn off anti-aliasing for it.01:25
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Blafaselelb: Screenshots? For fun?01:28
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LinuxCodecorrect me if im wrong, but can it be skype for the N8x0 doesnt support video ?01:31
GeneralAntillesGizmo for video.01:32
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LinuxCodegizmo does skype ?01:32
LinuxCodelol k01:32
GeneralAntillesBut Skype is crappy and proprietary anyway.01:32
LinuxCodeamsn does it01:32
LinuxCodei agree01:33
LinuxCodebut me and my brother wanted to test it01:33
LinuxCodehe lives in Germany01:33
elbBlafasel: change /etc/osso-af-init/x-server.defs to say DISPLAY_DPI=225, reboot, and see for yourself01:34
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BlafaselLinuxCode: Why don't you go for Gizmo then?01:42
Blafaselelb: Will try01:42
LinuxCodeBlafasel, what does gizmo support ?01:42
LinuxCodeBlafasel, mainly because my brother knows skype01:42
LinuxCodehes on a mac01:42
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LinuxCodeis it p2p ?01:43
BlafaselNo, but your brother is out of luck for video support (Mac) for now.01:43
GeneralAntillesGive it 2 months.01:43
LinuxCodewell we were more curious really01:43
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LinuxCodesee how the N810 handles it ;-}01:43
BlafaselLinuxCode: Works quite well, though01:44
LinuxCodeeveing Tama^201:44
LinuxCodeBlafasel, sweet01:44
Tama^2Ciao LinuxCode01:44
GeneralAntillesGizmo is exactly like Skype, except open.01:44
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, I gathered that01:44
GeneralAntillesSo you can use it entirely with rtcomm01:44
LinuxCodeI prefer sip01:44
GeneralAntillesNo need for a bloaty 3rd party client.01:44
LinuxCodeI prefer open standards ..which sip is01:45
GeneralAntillesGizmo is SIP.01:45
GeneralAntillesand Jabber.01:45
BlafaselWhat's up with a ekiga port, btw_01:45
Tama^2Gizmo didn;t use to have encryption, does it now?01:45
elbwhy would Gizmo use SIP?01:45
elb(I'm not saying it doesn't; I just don't see why)01:45
GeneralAntillesWhy not?01:46
GeneralAntillesSo it can work with whatever client you want to use it with?01:46
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elbI thought it used jabber for its session establishment01:46
elbjabber and SIP are really serving the same purpose01:46
GeneralAntillesEh, I dunno.01:46
GeneralAntillesIt works.01:47
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BlafaselThey use Jabber for the IM stuff. Yes, SIP can support that as well01:47
BlafaselAt least that's what I understood so far.01:47
elbthat's not really relevant, here01:47
elbI thought Gizmo used jabber for presence and session establishment01:48
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BlafaselLike gtalk, just replacing jingle with <whatever>?01:48
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elblooks like it doesn't, its basic signaling is SIP01:50
elbactually, I can't tell, I'm seeing both01:50
elbmaybe it really does use both01:50
elbwhich is ... interesting01:50
BlafaselWell, imo SIP is better supported in all those legacy voip clients, jabber the better choice for im (looking at miranda, sim, pidgin, trillian, kopete whatever)01:52
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doc|workyou can use sip with rtcomm01:54
doc|workintegrates with maemo01:54
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TheFoolany canola devs/users around?02:03
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TheFoolcanola2 installed fine on my n770 but it wont start02:05
jeff1fIf two people are using gtalk accounts, can they video chat with two different tablets?02:08
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TheFoolI didn't think video chat was supported in any of the tablets gtalk clients02:09
jeff1foh, just jabber?02:10
flatfaceDoes anyone here know about the project where someone here was making a maemo youtube browser that didn't use the standard web browser/flash?02:11
TheFooljeff1f: nm, ignore me it seems gtalk has video support as well02:12
flatface(not uktube)02:12
BlafaselHmpf. Tried installing rtcomm: Red Pill mode, d/l & install the installer, run it - nothing happens. Program manager starts and just spins like hell (doesn't react to anything, only flashes "Already working"). Rebooting the device and trying to disable red pill mode: Same error.. Is that a known problem?02:12
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OstebaronenHello people!02:21
Ostebaronenif there are any02:21
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johnxno people here.02:21
johnxwe're all bots :P02:22
Ostebaronenoh noes!02:22
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OstebaronenWell I've got some issues with my N81002:22
Ostebaronenthe GPS wont lock on any satellites02:22
elbtake it outside, and give it plenty of time02:22
Ostebaronenso it's only going to work outside?02:22
elbGPS units generally only work outside, yes02:23
elbin a window, if you're lucky02:23
Ostebaronenhmm, the Garmin Nüvi i tried worked fine at work02:23
elbyour n810 might work in that specific location, too, then02:23
elbGPS units typically do not work well or reliably indoors02:23
Ostebaronenthough it didnt02:23
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Ostebaronenoh I see02:24
Ostebaronenwell I'll try that in the morning, or when I wake up that is02:24
elb(handheld-type units, as the n810 is, don't exactly have fantastic antennae)02:24
johnxuhm, also some people think that a bug in some of the GPS software on the N810 might be causing slow lock-on times02:24
johnxbut I don't know if that's confirmed yet...02:25
elbyeah, that was the "give it plenty of time" part02:25
elb*I* don't have that problem, but most people seem to02:25
Ostebaronenyeah I'm on the 1.0-25 leap year gpsd package02:25
elbit should resolve itself in 5 or so minutes either way02:25
pupniki'm amazed that gps receiver modules are so small now02:25
elbafter the unit decides to totally ignore what gpsd is telling it ;-)02:25
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johnxOstebaronen, well in that case just give it plenty of time for the first lock and also realize that the GPS chipset in the N810 is kind of lowend02:26
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pupnikand don't move it around while getting a lock, let it sit.02:26
elbI've not noticed that mattering for either my 810 or my Garmin02:26
elbevery 810 lock I've made has been in the car02:27
Ostebaronenokay, well I might buy some bluetooth gps for it if im going to need it02:27
elbin any situation where you would realistically need a GPS, it's going to work fine02:27
elbif you're in a building, you probably know where you are ;-)02:27
Ostebaronenhaha yeah02:27
pupniki've walked from my house to the supermarket (16 minutes) holding the n810 in front of me without getting a lock02:27
Ostebaronenthat is true02:27
elband if you don't, you probably don't have globally oriented maps against which to compare your GPS position02:27
elbpupnik: something is wrong there, then02:28
elbpupnik: are you between high-rise buildings?02:28
pupnikwalking through a typical german town.02:28
elbunfortunately, I've never been to Germany, so that means little to me ;-)02:29
Ostebaronenso I guess no02:29
Takpupnik: is the supermarket located in a universe with noneuclidean geometry?02:29
Ostebaronenif its a town and not a city there isnt many hi-rise buildings02:29
elbin Russia I had some trouble getting a lock in some situations (on my Garmin) moving around downtown, because satellites were flashing in and out of view due to building blockage02:29
OstebaronenI've been to germany serveral times :P02:29
elbwhich seemed to confuse it02:29
Ostebaronenelb oh I see02:30
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OstebaronenI was quite impressed02:33
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Ostebaronenso I decided to get a N81002:33
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LinuxCodeOstebaronen, dont lie!02:38
OstebaronenI need to ask this, how do i move programs in the menu from one category to the other?02:38
LinuxCodei seen your site02:39
johnxOstebaronen, control panel > personalization > navigation > menu (?)02:39
b0unc3Ostebaronen: throught the control panel02:39
elbOstebaronen: in control panel | panels02:39
elbclick "Organize"02:39
infobotjohnx meant: Ostebaronen, control panel > personalization > navigation > panel (?)02:39
johnxeh, what elb said...02:39
OstebaronenAhh thanks!02:40
elbI made my menus about 100% more useful, there02:40
johnxI need to redo mine, with the goal of not having to scroll to reach anything I actually use...02:41
Ostebaronenahh thanks02:41
elbby moving the crap that you can't get rid of on the *main* screen to less prominent places, and renaming/reorganizing Internet and ... whatever the third one was ... to more appropriate topics02:42
elbjohnx: that's exactly what I did02:42
johnxI did it once, then reflashed :/02:42
elbit doesn't back that up?02:42
johnxI did it in OS2007 and didn't restore my backup02:44
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Ostebaronenhmm gotta think up some new folder names in the menu02:45
Ostebaronenand organize a little02:46
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elbI went with 'Information' and 'Media', if that's helpful at all02:47
elbI struggled to come up with appropriate categories02:47
johnxah, information would be a good category02:48
Ostebaroneni have Internet, Multimedia, Tools, Office, Settings, Games (though this should be under multimedia) and Other02:49
elbyeah, I put fbreader, maemopad+, GPE calendar, the PDF reader, etc. there02:49
elbthat's one more than fits on the first screen02:49
elbwhich I tried to avoid02:49
johnxI think I switched "Utilities" and "Settings" to "System" and "Tools"02:50
b0unc3maybe... someone can share the modified menu file....02:50
johnxthen I moved filemanager, xterm and some other stuff to system02:50
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OstebaronenI wish you could organise the contacts menu02:54
elbor just remove it entirely02:55
johnxfor stuff in the main menu I settled on an "unused" category and put it at the bottom...02:55
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Ostebaronenwhere do you set password for the device?02:56
Ostebaronenoh there02:56
b0unc3guys, there is a vncviewer port for OS2008 ?02:58
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Ostebaronenyeah i tink i saw one in the applications manager02:58
Ostebaronenor somewhere on the maemo site02:58
b0unc3yep... found it03:00
Ostebaronenoh well going to sleep03:01
Ostebaronentalk to you later, and thanks for the help so far03:01
Ostebaronenprobably going to ask some questions tomorrow :>03:01
Ostebaronenyeah good night03:02
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pupnikanybody want to code a mouse frontend for dosbox?03:11
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pupnik1 FPS in TES: Arena :)03:17
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j0ttmouse (touchscreen) support in dosbox would be really nice03:23
j0tthas anyone ever used pocketdos? they claim that they have a solution - question is how practical it is and how it's done ;)03:24
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j0tti've some ideas but most sound like a big hack :/03:24
pupnikyes i have the sources for that stuff03:26
pupniksolution would be a relative (drag), like a touchpad movement, with onscreen buttons for l/r03:26
j0tttouchpad whould suck :/03:27
j0ttthere has to be a way to calibrate the screen for absolute clicks ,)03:27
pupnikbtw j0tt your sdl N810 keyboard hack seems to work on everything i've tried so far03:27
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pupnikno you can't do that with dosbox.  the mouse driver uses relative movement, and there's no API for absolute screen position03:28
pupnikfor pure dos games, that is03:28
jottyou can.. but it's not that trivial (and would need calibration for every game)03:28
jottbasically my idea was, to calibrate the mouse based on positions the user sets ..03:29
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pupnikthat is clever03:29
jottlike, putting a calibration overlay (4-5 crosses) where the user has to move the mouse to03:29
jott(the dosbox mouse)03:29
jottthen you can derive the relative movement from the absolute positions03:30
pupnikthen you would need a dpad-style interface just to do the calibration03:30
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pupnikto generate the relative movement03:30
jottyeah something like that..03:31
pupnikvery clever though.  that could possibly work03:31
lcddsince the dosbox window/view doesn't fill whole screen you could leave some space for other things.. like button presses03:31
jott(though even with the current interface it would be possible to get the pointer to a given point with some effort)03:31
pupniki find games with which i can not move the mouse to certain positions with current interface03:32
pupnikas an alternative, the hardware dpad could be used during calibration to move the DOS mouse to be under the calibration point03:34
jotthmm possibly i suppose you still need some reference relative data03:35
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pupnikok we have to increase threshold for x/y offset under which double click is detected03:49
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pupnikfound it03:52
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pupnikit was set to 1 pixel offset (!)03:55
unique311pupnik, I made the latest news at choplair.  -->
unique311drinks on me.03:56
pupnikyou stuck it out with the hildonization then?03:57
unique311manage to get 1 app done.03:57
unique311mtpaint is another story....03:57
pupnikyeah lots of work there03:59
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pupnik<- sleep04:01
johnx'night pupnik04:01
Solarionwhat is the largest usable sdcard size in the n800?04:03
johnxThe N800 supports all SDHC cards, so as large as you can find04:03
johnxpeople have tested various 16GB cards04:03
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Solarionthe n810 does up to 8gb, or is that 8gb is the largest you can find?04:04
johnxwell, I think 8GB is the largest microSDHC card you can find right now04:04
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johnxbut Nokia's site has some thing like "supports up to 8GB SDHC cards" left over from when 8GB was the biggest thing out there04:05
johnxit confuses a lot of people04:05
LinuxCodejohn so it could support 16GB + ?04:09
LinuxCodeI know sdhc can do 204804:09
LinuxCodebut could the N810 handle that04:09
johnxthere's no reason to think that any card that complies with the microSDHC, miniSDHC and/or SDHC specs wont' work in either machine04:09
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Tama^2unfortunately sd cards have major quirks04:20
johnxwell yeah, but there's no reason to think that an (eventually available) 32GB SDHC card from a major vendor will be *less* compatible than an 8GB card from a no-name brand04:21
Tama^2yes they are very likely to work but there may be unpleasant sideeffect with some combination of driver/controller/card04:21
Tama^2sure, it makes sense to assume they will work ok04:22
Tama^2I got 2x16Gb and they work04:22
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johnxwow, there's nothing like having someone release the package you need, days before you need it :D04:26
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johnxjott, did you ever figure out the keymap issue in Debian?04:58
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johnxb0unc3, did you have to do much special to get my debian tarball working on your 770?05:55
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acydlordI think this weekend I'm gonna see if i can install scratchbox and maemo on gOS06:10
johnxyou have something running gOS?06:10
acydlordi will as of tomorrow06:10
johnxa walmart PC or that cloudbook thing?06:10
acydlordinstalling it on my old 500mhz system06:10
acydlordprobably gonna buy the everx gPC with the money from selling my n80006:11
johnxah, cool06:11
johnxneed a real portable instead of something pocketable?06:11
acydlordwell i have my n81006:12
johnxthat makes sense then06:12
acydlordjust trying to cycle out the power hungry beasts for something more green06:12
acydlordi got rid of a 3ghz opteron 2 years ago and replaced it with a 1.4ghz geode06:12
johnxeh, I like my power hungry desktop...I will always find a way to use all the CPU power available to me06:13
acydlorddropped my electric bill about $20 a year06:13
acydlordwell i have 7 systems in here right now06:13
johnxthat starts to make more sense :)06:13
acydlordtrying to downscale the towers to rackmounts and get something more green for the rest06:13
johnxI assume the geode is for a fileserver?06:13
acydlordnah, just a cheapo low power desktop06:14
acydlordit's actually my windows box right now lol06:15
johnxat my last job I actually deployed a whole bunch of Geode thinclients running Debian and acting as "web kiosk" machines06:15
johnxit was really awesome because I trimmed down the desktop until firefox ran faster on them (1GHz Geode/256MB RAM) then it did on the G5 iMacs they replaced...06:16
acydlordyeah, they are amazing machines06:16
johnxI was worried about the people using them complaining but they were happy to have the "upgrade" :D06:16
acydlordi was dissapointed when AMD discontinued the series06:16
johnxgranted the iMacs were running way too much crap...06:17
johnxdid they?06:17
johnxI didn't even know that06:17
johnxAt least Via and Intel seem commited to low power stuff06:17
acydlordamd is making a new low power series06:18
johnxmmm...solid state machines with a read-only root filesystem are *so damn easy* to maintain06:18
johnxyour machine burst into flames? *replace with a spare* then *RMA*06:19
acydlordthe one thing that pisses me off about solid state machines is that about 10 years ago i had a really good plan for a solid state macine, had schematics and everything drawn up06:19
acydlordexcept back then solid state was redcilously expensive and not as abundant as it is now06:20
johnxjust these last two years flash prices have gone through the floor06:20
acydlordyeah i know06:20
acydlord3 years ago a 1gb transflash card was like $12006:21
acydlordnow i can get a 2gb transflash card for $1406:21
acydlordwith sd, minisd, and usb adapters06:21
johnxwhen I was rolling these out I had to settle for 512MB of flash for /06:21
johnxit was a heck of a lot better than 256MB O_o06:22
acydlordthe one i have is still somewhat like a normal desktop, using pc320006:22
johnxI "inherited" the first round of machines with 128MB RAM / 256MB flash and told to get them working for what we needed, but that really didn't work out06:22
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acydlordmine came with 256mb ram and preloaded with linspire06:23
johnxyeah, they were totally unusable with firefox :/06:25
acydlordyeah, it came with ff 1.5 that was all stripped down06:25
johnxthe linux install they came with was totally broken06:26
johnxpainfully broken...just really bad06:26
johnxthe second round with 512MB of flash came with a really great small debian install06:27
johnxHP even made packages for their proprietary stuff, so I just dpkg --purge'd their stuff and went on my way06:27
acydlordmine came on some crappy ECS mobo, got it on the fry's electronics GQ brand06:29
johnxaaah, ECS06:29
johnxlet's see, the ones I used were HP t5725 thin clients06:32
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johnxgah! Xomap opens and reads from /dev/input/event2 in ITOS but won't in Debian07:25
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ds3johnx: Xomap based off tinyX?07:45
johnxyeah, I guess they call it "kdrive" now07:46
johnxI'm downloading the source now07:47
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ds3I think kdrive servers take an argument for the input device07:47
johnxI'm handing it exactly the same arguments as in ITOS...but maybe an environment variable somewhere?07:48
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ds3yeah... TSLIB_DEVICE or something like that07:51
Tama^2Environment Variables07:58
Tama^2TSLIB_TSDEVICETS device file name.07:58
Tama^2Default (non inputapi): /dev/touchscreen/ucb1x0007:58
Tama^2Default (inputapi): /dev/input/event007:58
Tama^2TSLIB_CALIBFILECalibration file.07:58
Tama^2Default: ${sysconfdir}/pointercal07:58
Tama^2TSLIB_CONFFILEConfig file.07:58
Tama^2Default: ${sysconfdir}/ts.conf07:58
Tama^2TSLIB_PLUGINDIRPlugin directory.07:58
Tama^2Default: ${datadir}/plugins07:58
Tama^2TSLIB_CONSOLEDEVICEConsole device.07:58
Tama^2Default: /dev/tty07:58
Tama^2TSLIB_FBDEVICEFramebuffer device.07:58
Tama^2Default: /dev/fb007:58
Tama^2johnx: from
johnxah, thanks07:58
johnxthough the touchscreen actually *works*07:58
johnxI figured it was going to be the big problem07:59
johnxbut it worked out of the box pretty much07:59
johnxI can't make the hardware buttons work in X at all :/07:59
Tama^2I am curious about how it works in the sensitivity dept for you07:59
Tama^2OS2008 has troubles IMHO07:59
Tama^2troubles distinguishing between stylus and finger taps08:00
johnxis there an easy way to test that?08:00
Tama^2no, I was planning to test that after I am done with my battery tests08:00
Tama^2but I haven't thought about it yet08:00
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oil_is this the best way to convert videos for n800?
oil_how about command line?08:02
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johnxtablet-encode (formerly
johnxtablet-encode just calls mencoder so there's a lot of flexibility08:03
ds3johnx: the buttons are in 2 seperate event devices08:03
ds3but you probally just care about one of them (the other is the power button)08:04
oil_johnx: on. thanks. I'll check it out08:04
ds3if you have udev, /dev/input/ has 3 entries08:04
johnxfour actually...08:04
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ds34?! hmmm interesting, wonder what's the other one08:04
johnxevent2 seems to be physical buttons08:04
johnxevent3 is touchscreen08:04
johnx1 or 0 must be the power button?08:04
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johnxI think one might have something to do with the wired remote?08:05
ds3810 or 800?08:05
johnxevent0 is power08:05
johnxOS2008 and Debian w/ OS2008 kernel08:06
johnxyeah, /dev/input/by-path/platform-retu-headset-event is a link to event108:06
johnxTama^2, I ran xev and no matter how hard I pressed it came up as button108:08
johnxdon't know if that helps you08:08
Tama^2mmm interesting08:10
johnxkeep in mind that for some reason Xomap seems to be acting differently for me under Debian vs under OS200808:11
Tama^2I guess to find out I will have to look at how text fields are setup to bring up the thumb keyb08:11
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chibiAcydman, the n810 is more sexy than the iphone08:26
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Radar-that it is, for now08:36
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truentman i gotta get back into dev for the n80008:37
oil_seems like the video is doing a good job as if.08:38
truenti figured everything out i needed to for the program i was trying to make.. and never put it all together cuz it seemed like the mountain was already climbed on my part ;p08:38
truentno payoff08:38
truentplus i couldnt get scratchbox to work really the way i wanted it to, so typing everything out on the n800 with a stylus seemed a bit tedious ;)08:40
oil_someone was making an D-cell batterypack for N810? Was there any results? Could be good on long fights etc.08:40
Radar-I use a vmware image of debian for my scratchbox08:40
truentfor n800 compiling?08:41
truentahh you run windows, and vmware debian.. with scratchbox inside?08:41
truentnah i run ubuntu fulltime.. i have it working, its just not exactly helpful.. i could do the same thing more or less ssh'ing into the n80008:42
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truentthing is im developing in ruby.. and didnt feel like working out how to install ruby-maemo and ruby-dbus in scratchbox08:43
Radar-I'm a vb/web programmer so I gave up on maemo dev for now08:43
truentnot that i couldnt.. just dont feel like putting more on the plate ;p08:44
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truentyeah the real reason i guess im lax is my work just figured out i can program so they're throwing a bunch of excel spreadsheet work at me.. vba.. mmm08:44
truentthat mmm was sarcastic btw ;p08:44
truenti gave up on vb when i was 14.. sucks to go back.. but anything to put on the resume.. i'll do it08:45
truentyou know other langs right?08:45
Radar-I work on some cross platform programming too, but the dev tool needs gl and x86 to run the binary, so n800 is out08:46
truentyou know what a hash is?08:47
Radar-I'm mostly a web programmer, php/asp/perl/etc08:47
truentlike an array.. but you access with {"whatever"}08:47
truenttype of thing08:47
truentand returns a key08:47
truentdoes vb have such a thing?08:47
truenterr returns a value08:48
Radar-I'm sure it does08:48
truentsorry had a few beers08:48
Radar-I had a few too few08:48
johnxaaah, the grand tradition of drunken IRC08:48
truentwell im jumping through crazy ass hoops to do everything the old fashioned way ;) when im now used to php or ruby type stuff.. all the nice 90s programmer perks08:49
truentyou aint lyin08:49
truentgrand tradition indeed08:49
truentnotice i said 90s ;)08:49
truentvb's lame08:49
johnxso is it tuesday night where you guys are? or wednesday morning?08:49
Radar-I should look into ruby08:49
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truentRadar-, good stuff.. especially for web with rails.. but the language itself is really well thought out.. and uhh 'alterego' in here even packaged up a ruby-maemo package so you can use gtk to build gui interfaces on the n800 pretty darn easily08:51
truentjohnx, tues, im in cali08:51
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Radar-I'll stick with just installing/modifying pre-built scripts on websites as needed, heh08:52
Radar-abuse oof open source!08:52
johnxand I guess I fall into the third category, not so much "developing" as "hacking around" :)08:52
truentits really somethin.. you do alot of database stuff with php or no?08:52
truentjohnx, we all stand on the shoulders of giants08:53
Radar-I hate the virtual keyboard on the n800.  always double  types letters08:53
truentcall yourself a developer, give it an upgrade08:53
truentRadar-, os2008 increased sensitivity i think08:53
johnxheh...I'm really just trying to get code that's already out there working08:54
truentthats when i noticed it08:54
Radar-yeah, it did08:54
truentjohnx, for what?08:54
johnxworking on getting a real debian system running on the N80008:54
truentahh big project08:54
johnxlots of hacking, not much programming :)08:54
johnxlike you said, standing on the shoulders of giants :)08:55
truenthow did the kde guys do it?08:55
truentis that just on top of os2008?08:55
johnxthey're just running it inside ITOS08:55
johnxyeah, I think they carefully kill off some stuff, then launch KDE08:56
Radar-the iphone with an sdk and the asus eee pc also look tempting08:56
truenthmm, obviously doable.. whats the current roadblock ya got?08:56
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johnxI'll wait to see what apple actually offers in terms of the SDK, ie what can be accessed, whether you can freely distribute your binaries, how to install on the phone...08:56
truentRadar-, iphone's 700mhz is sexy.. i just hate the hype08:56
truentRadar-, have you seen the eee in person?08:57
Radar-not yet08:57
truenti have..08:57
johnxtruent, hardware buttons, sound and *gag* power management :/08:57
Radar-haven't found a store that carries it08:57
Radar-if tthey add a larger screen in the same form factor, win08:58
truentif i showed the guys at the store i saw the eeepc at the n800 they'd definitely give some oo's and ah's08:58
johnxeee is interesting, I guess...but not very pocketable08:58
truentjohnx, yeah you need a team methinks.. of people more giantish than you08:58
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johnxwell thankfully their are other people working on it, but that's why I keep plugging it in IRC :D08:59
Radar-my n800 in its case fits in my coat pocket, thatt's about it08:59
truentjohnx, gotcha08:59
truentim not your man btw :P08:59
truenttoo much headache for me for sure08:59
truentim down to test though if you ever need that :P08:59
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johnxfair enough, but if you have a friend who asks about Debian on the Nokia tablets you can send him here09:00
truenteeepc was just a lil lackluster, when ive seen it on websites i wanted it.. but when i saw it in person i was glad i had an n800 ;p09:00
truentno doubt09:00
johnxRadar-, no case for me. I live dangerously09:00
Radar-debian running in a scratchbox in a debian image in vmware in windows!09:01
truenti got that slothskin wallet that came in the n800 box, does that count?09:01
Tama^2speaking of virtual kb, there is a matchbox package in extra. anyone tried to install it? ;-)09:02
Radar-I like the access to the full catalog of software that an eee running ubuuntu would have09:02
truentRadar-, what about johnx's debian? ;P09:02
Radar-crazy talk!09:03
johnxTama^2, which part of matchbox is it? keyboard? desktop?09:03
truentRadar-, maybe i missed somethin when i was lookin, but on the eeepc i couldnt even find  an xterm to really mess around, and i looked09:03 goes with the CJK stuff right?09:03
Tama^2the odd thing is that of course it must be already inatalled09:03
johnxhmm...I think not09:04
Tama^2not sure the package description does not mention CJK09:04
Radar-thhe default os on the eee is prretty limited09:04
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johnxIIRC, Nokia uses hildon-keyboard and matchbox-window-manager09:04
Radar-more visual focused than functional09:04
truentRadar-, ahh so you have to hack it to get all that.. just like john's doing for the n800 right ? :P09:05
johnxto be fair it is a heck of a lot easier on an x86 machine with a normal BIOS09:05
truentRadar-, vista or xp?09:05
truentthats true09:05
Radar-naw, just format it annd install ubuntu or xp, no hacking needed09:05
johnxright, but you need drivers09:06
johnxI'm in the same situation09:06
Radar-I forget if it runs gOS or xandros by default09:06
johnxa "debian install" is one command: debootstrap /media/mmc209:06
truentxandros i think09:06
truenti think on the one i saw09:06
Radar-gOS might be the OLPC one09:07
johnxnah, gOS is the walmart one :)09:07
johnxOLPC does their own thing09:07
truentyeah this one was meant to be xp-ish you could tell09:07
truentstill cool dont get me wrong09:07
truentbut everyone i've shown the n800 to was impressed.. the eeepc its like.. "why didnt you just buy a good laptop?"09:08
johnxyeah, and probably a good match for a lot of people who just want to check their mail and play solitair and look at wikipedia09:08
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truentwell sheeit thats 99% of the computer market :P09:08
johnxthe people who I would recommend an eeePC to are my parents09:08
truentno viruses mom!09:09
johnxno viruses, no dicking around with program compatibility since everything she needs is already there, etc, etc09:09
johnxif I could make / read-only it would be even better09:09
truentyeah ive finally got a few friends on linux09:10
truentits always when they have  ashitty computer that windows would suck the life out of though09:10
truentso its hard for them to love it rather than just be satisfied ya know09:10
johnxsame experience here, pretty much09:10
johnxif they have money I tell them to buy a mac09:10
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truenti like macs just dont like the cult09:11
johnxit's just another Unix system to me09:11
johnxbut for standard users it's pretty low maintanence09:11
truentfor sure.. i just cant call myself a mac person09:11
truentoh no doubt09:12
johnxI had one for work at my last job09:12
johnx10.4 Tiger was ok, and actually they fixed a lot of stuff that annoyed me in Leopard after I had left09:12
johnxbut some things still just bug the life out of click to focus09:12
truentno option?09:13
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truentthats the thing man.. with user-friendliness comes non-configurability09:13
johnxmaybe there was a hack somewhere...09:13
truentthe big trade-off of every programmer09:13
johnxit's true09:13
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truentif i ever get a mac i won't have bought it09:15
truenttwo things i hate, those intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the mexicans.09:16
truentim married to a mexican btw09:16
truentlove jokes like that09:17
johnxyeah, it made a great "work" laptop since it was good enough to let me be productive and not enticing enough to want to hack up :D09:17
truenti got an old laptop from a brother in law.. trash to him.. throw some linux on.. good to go09:18
truentpentium 4 but that thing running xp was a paperweight09:18
Radar-Ii had an ibook, but after 3 logic  board failures (3rd still not fixed) I replaced it with the n800 for the last 9 months09:19
johnxthat's what I have now actually09:19
johnx(a P4 laptop, not an ibook)09:19
johnxthat thing weighs 10lbs even, I kid you not O_o09:19
truenti think this is around there09:19
truentprobably 2 or 3 years old09:19
truentnot sure09:19
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truentRadar-, still got the ibook?09:20
truent<truent> if i ever get a mac i won't have bought it09:20
truentwhat d'ya say?09:20
Radar-if I put a shim on the gpu it'll probably fix it09:20
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Radar-just never got around to it09:21
truentshim away09:21
truentand right apple a strongly worded letter09:21
truentwrite even09:21
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truentgeez three sierra nevadas and it all goes out the window doesnt it09:22
truentRadar-,  you do alot of database programming in php?09:22
truentyou said php,asp,perl i think09:23
Radar-yeah, with mysql and php mostly09:23
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truentgo buy a crap book or read a good tutorial on ruby on rails.. rails will create variables and methods for you as long as you follow naming conventions09:24
truenthard to explain.. but you wont be giving many if any SELECT statements at all09:24
jkyrobah, django is better ;)09:24
solmumaharails <309:25
truentmaybe the django ate my baby?09:25
jkyrothe only downside is that there's not that much hosting available09:25
johnxwhat's with all these data-bases? who needs 'em when you have sh, sed and awk09:25
oil_what and how would would be a correct way to load these nfs-modules on boot?
johnxplain text should be good enough for anyone!09:25
Radar-my code is embarrasing.. I'm practically italian with all the spaghetti I make09:26
truentRadar-, ruby will teach you (if you try) very good object oriented approaches09:26
jkyroyeeah right09:26
Radar-but then again I work in marketing so knowing any coding at all is a miracle09:27
truentjkyro, when my right hand wants to get off the keyboard and open up a firefox instance i'll look up your django.. until then..09:27
johnxoil_, insmod them from an init script?09:27
truentRadar-, indeed.. vb it is then :P09:27
oil_johnx: ok. I'll make one. just wondering if there would have been an file to put these. .thnaks.09:27
truentjkyro, you know ruby?09:28
Radar-these days I mostly hack together asp/access scripts at work09:28
johnxoil_, module autoloading on ITOS is kind of ... not there09:28
truentor just seen it used?09:28
truentjkyro, ahh.. python's answer to rails?09:29
truenti like pythons dbus implementation ;)09:29
jkyrotruent: yes09:29
jkyroI don't know ruby that well, which is one of the reasons I'm using django09:30
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jkyroI've tried rails though, didn't deliver for me09:30
truentsee i dont know anything about python, just know its pretty much just the other side of the aisle as far as ruby goes09:31
jkyrobasically, yes09:31
truentit was ruby or python to learn i chose ruby :P09:31
truenti'll check it out though09:31
jkyroDoesn't make much sense to learn a new language if I can use something I already know09:31
jkyrobut, It never hurts to try09:32
oil_johnx: I put it to nfs-common startscript09:32
truentsame here of course, but im not a python/django hater like someone's coming off as ;P09:32
truentgood stuff09:33
jkyroI don't particularly dislike ruby or rails either, just pointing out that there are alternatives :)09:33
truenti've always read that rails isnt perfect but its the best so far.. of course as web developers we'd all like to see it keep movin09:33
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K-Foxi want to know the setting of usbnetworking , n800 <--- > winxp (os2008)10:26
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b0unc3good morning10:35
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kennyyuhi there, I'd like to start a debugging session for mozilla in maemo. I added '--enable-debug' and '--enable-optimize="-O2 -g" but still with error. Does it mean that I cannot build my mozilla tree for debug purpose actually?10:41
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EruditeHermithey, is the internet call screen supposed to start when the webcam pops out on the n800? My internet call screen no longer does this10:43
EruditeHermitit used to10:44
solmumahaEruditeHermit: there's an option for it10:44
EruditeHermitsolmumaha: where is the option?10:44
solmumahastart it by hand and select preferences from the menu10:44
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EruditeHermitsolmumaha: oh thank you10:45
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Anidelhello there10:54
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* pupnik_ wants to bypass sdl and go to something like Xv(Shm)PutImage11:05
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K-Foxi want to know the setting of usbnetworking , n800 <--- > winxp (os20011:34
johnxK-Fox, ok, I'm not sure if this will work, but I'll try to help.11:38
johnx1) open up the x-terminal and type "sudo gainroot"11:39
johnxtell me if that works and I'll tell you the second step11:39
_collin_Tak: he did you get my mail?11:39
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JaffaMorning, all11:42
Anidel"he" ?11:45
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_collin_he = hi11:50
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* pupnik is totally thrashing11:52
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pupnikJaffa what is your recommendation for this:  libSDL currently does not pass-on the FN key to games.  jott has made a fixed libSDL that allows use of FN key.  It is needed for dosbox.  What should I do?  Statically link in his libSDL to dosbox or wait x months for a new libSDL from nokia or what?11:53
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Jaffapupnik: hmm, good question.11:57
Anidelcollin ok :)11:57
JaffaStatic linking's probably the best idea unless it's too big.11:57
X-Fadepupnik: I think static is the best idea for now. As getting that into libSDL on the device can take a while ;)11:58
pupnikoki.  temp solution is fine with me, as i'll rebuild as soon as it's addressed officially11:58
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X-Fadepupnik: And I don't think you can upgrade libSDL by putting in into extras?11:58
JaffaNo, you get that "Upgrading software from a different source" message, I think11:59
X-FadeYeah, which makes sense..11:59
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* johnx reads xomap source...12:00
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johnxjott, did you ever get buttons working in Debian?12:02
oil_great. the joikuspot shares the edge-uplink with WLAN to n810 and n95 at the same time.12:03
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hrwwhat do you think about one?12:07
johnxI doubt many bug fixes will go into the default mail client, given that it will probably be replaced with "modest" very soon...12:10
GeneralAntillesfwiw, the osso-email bugs are basically all WONTFIX.12:11
X-FadeYeah, modest is already soo much better ;)12:11
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hrwGeneralAntilles: cool.12:13
hrwanother great idea of N company. providing not supported apps by default12:13
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GeneralAntilleshrw, it's being phased out for a better product. . . .12:14
X-Fadehrw: Modest is also done with support from Nokia.12:14
GeneralAntillesWhy the hell would they put time and effort into something that's just going to disappear?12:14
GeneralAntillesIf you want to file useful bugs, install Modest and file against that.12:14
X-FadeModest even has weekly package updates and _changelog_ :)12:15
X-FadeComplete with bug ids.12:15
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johnxX-Fade, Do you know much about Xomap?12:16
X-Fadejohnx: Nothing at all ;)12:16
johnxah well, worth a shot12:16
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inzmodest didn't work too well for me, it seems to drain the battery quite quickly12:19
inzAnd imo it should mark messages read, if they're read from somewhere else12:19
hrwX-Fade: I know that modest is nokia paid12:20
X-Fadeinz: I don't experience battery drain with modest.12:20
hrwbut for me 'nokia paid' or 'nokia software' does not have to mean 'good'12:21
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X-Fadeinz: it only checks once per 15 minutes on my device..12:21
inzX-Fade, at least it seemed to be always running when I checked, taking quite a load of memory12:22
X-Fadehrw: At least modest is BSD licensed and developed out in the open..12:22
X-Fadeinz: Lot of memory leaks fixed lately..12:22
hrwX-Fade: the problem is that I do not use n810 for mail daily. just want to be able to look into inbox from time to time without being informed about each new mail12:23
hrwGeneralAntilles: my webmail req 1024px at least and I do not like it12:23
X-Fadehrw: Just disable new mail notification and use imap?12:24
GeneralAntillesOr that.12:24
hrwfor now I jsut removed account at all12:25
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fysasleep kicked me out of bed.,12:25
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fysaModest is no longer Nokia-supported?12:26
GeneralAntillesfysa, what?12:26
fysaoh, nevermind. ;)12:27
johnxOMG, I'll spread the news! :P12:27
GeneralAntillesfysa lerns 2 reed12:27
johnx(This is how rumors start)12:27
* fysa scrolls back more than 20 lines12:27
jkumodest is dying, netcraft confirms12:27
fysa<X-Fade> hrw: Modest is also done with support from Nokia12:27
fysaI thought that meant they were fed up. ;)12:28
fysajohnx: you have hildon booting in debian-armel?}12:28
johnxand leafpad runs unmodified12:28
fysayou tried other packages?12:28
johnxnot really12:28
inzmodest webpage is not keyboard friendly12:29
fysaor do we get dependency issues?12:29
johnxThere are lots more deps that need to be packaged12:29
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fysaare you using it as your 'main' interface now?12:29
fysadebian-armel, that is.12:29
johnxand there are already one group of people packaging maemo for debian, so I've switched back to working on hardware stuff12:29
johnxfysa, heck now :)12:29
johnxit needs lots of work12:30
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hrwheh.. I feel tat it is time to create own repo with stuff missing in maemo ones..12:30
hrwwhy there is no strace package for example12:31
johnxoh cool! I'll create some repos too :D12:31
johnxhrw, has the answers12:31
hrwjohnx: I do not plan to try to get own packages in maemo extras12:31
johnxthe maemo extras policy is in the process of changing...12:32
GeneralAntillesEverybody make a repo!12:32
hrwNokia-N810-50-2:~# wc /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list12:32
fysaOK, cool.  I am actually going to have time to play with this stuff now..  big project at work launched so I've finally had time to catch up on things like finishing unpacking from three months ago. ;)12:32
hrw       41       168      2152 /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list12:32
GeneralAntillesAs everybody knows more repos are always better!12:32
* _collin_ has one12:33
hrwjohnx: with 41 repos from gronmayer page I still lack strace12:33
GeneralAntillesfysa, there's no such thing as "finishing unpacking". ;)12:33
fysaI spent a good two hours sorting the home office anyway, which is mostly what I'm in charge of ;)12:33
X-Fadehrw: Isn't it in the sdk repository?12:33
GeneralAntillesModest needs to add the most recent changes to the BOTTOM of the changelog file.12:33
fysathere's just this peksy root canal in 5 hours.12:34
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Nah, that isn't how changelogs work ;)12:34
GeneralAntillesYeah, I know.12:34
GeneralAntillesNokia needs to fix Application Manager so it starts at the top.12:34
fysahas Opera said anything about bringing Opera Mobile 9.5 to maemo/armel?12:35
johnxopera mobile is the cell phone version, isn't it?12:35
jkufysa, why would they if N isn't paying anymore?12:35
fysathe rendering engine is very nice.12:36
lardmanhrw: bitbake built feed....12:36
hrwadded 42 repository into list12:36
hrwlardman: thats the plan12:36
lardmangood news12:36
* johnx will be back later12:37
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hrwlardman: I was always tired of 'you need XY repositories to install application' problem of maemo12:37
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GeneralAntillesThen why do you want to go and make yet more repos? <_<12:38
fysadoes anyone have a maintained public repo?12:39
hrwGeneralAntilles: sooner or later I will drop other ones12:39
fysathat accepts submissions easily?12:39
lardmanhrw: feels like the very early Zaurus days still12:39
hrwlardman: sharprom crap - yes.12:39
lardmanhrw: though it's nice to have the official repos12:39
fysamaybe we need a site that lets you register, upload debs and vote up/down/review existing debs.12:39
hrwlardman: or redhat 5/612:40
lardmanhrw: yep12:40
fysathen each developer wouldn't need to setup their own.12:40
hrwfysa: upload debs is wrong way12:40
X-Fadefysa: :)12:40
hrwfysa: upload sources and let autobuilder build them12:40
lardmanfysa: just use OpenEmbedded metadata with an autobuilder12:40
lardmanhrw: can you setup a feed/autobuilder?12:40
X-Fadelardman: We have the sources for the auto-builder that Nokia uses..12:40
hrwlardman: would prefer to not doing it12:41
lardmanX-Fade: yes, but OpenEmbedded works(TM)12:41
fysaX-Fade: excellent12:41
lardmanhrw: fair enough12:41
lardmanhrw: I don't have enough space, but for starters it would be good to setup a feed (non-autobuilt) to get people used to the idea12:41
fysaso garage projects will be able to add themselves to a repo?12:41
hrwlardman: I am connected with OpenedHand and would like to not spend too much time on maemo12:42
lardmanhrw: ah, I see12:42
X-Fadelardman: Yeah, but how much do we need to change to use openembedded ;)12:42
lardmanfysa: if they submit a build recipe, then yes, they could be built from the source12:42
fysaI see.12:43
hrwand all deps will also get build automatically12:43
hrwso no more 'you need package X from repo Y to install Z from my repo'12:43
X-Fadefysa: First step will be easy upload of binary debs. But auto-building is the goal..12:43
lardmanfysa: it's easy enough, lots of examples :)
hrwX-Fade: I am against binary debs12:44
lardmanX-Fade: makes it difficult it you want to modify a package12:44
X-Fadehrw: Everybody is ;) But you have to start somewhere..12:44
hrwX-Fade: you cant be sure that they are buildable12:44
X-Fadehrw: And they are that way now..12:44
X-FadeGoing to auto-building and stop support uploading binary packages can't be done in one day. We need to do it in a few steps.12:45
lardmanhrw: I got a strange error this morning when I went to use OE (I've moved to Ubuntu now). It said "Please install following missing utilities: C++ compiler (${BUILD_PREFIX}g++)"12:46
lardmanhrw: does it not like GCC 4.x.x?12:46
hrwlardman: apt-get install build-essential?12:46
lardmanhrw: ah, I couldn't see a link to the RequiredPackages page12:47
lardmanmust have been my fuzzy morning eyes12:48
hrwor lack of coffe12:49
lardmanhrw: yeah, only half way through first cup :)12:49
hrwC0:FF:EE:C0:FF:EE is mac address of my AP12:50
lardmanjku: so what are your thoughts on the improvement or not produced by gpsd?12:50
lardmanhrw: nice :)12:50
jkulardman, I really don't know... on one hand I do believe the osso-gpsd maintainer12:51
jkuon the other, I believe I saw a real improvement compared to my tests in January12:51
jkuI have not yet tested with a clean system/osso-gpsd again12:52
lardmanjku: I've not tested either as it's too bloody cold to sit outside in the middle of a field :)12:52
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jkuthe scientist in me is telling me I just saw placebo... but it would be really strange since in January I decided the GPS was unusable crap.12:53
lardmanjku: Well I had decided that, as I can't easily get a lock from my balcony window, but then nor can my iBlue these days12:54
lardmanjku: Then I drove to work (~2min) and had a lock by the time I arrived (with both)12:55
lardmanjku: not exactly scientific testing methodology :)12:55
X-Fadejku: I didn't notice any difference when cold booting and fixing..12:56
jkuX-Fade, good to know.12:56
X-Fadejku: I had fixes in range 1min-15 minutes. With both versions..12:56
X-FadeRandom fix times is what I get ;)12:57
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jkuwould support the placebo theory. Man, that bruises my ego12:57
jkuI've always considered myself analytical, and not easily fooled by statistical anomalies12:58
X-Fadejku: Well, it looked promising at least. But...12:58
jkuI'll test a bit more (tomorrow maybe), decide then12:59
nick_fnIs the 'unlock device' dialog larger on OS2008? On my OS2007 N800, the numbers are really tiny buttons - which seems crazy for a touchscreen.13:03
|tbb|lardman, i use the original gpsd not the patched one, i was staying one hour in a house gps was shutdown after i go out put gps on and a fix was nearly under 30 seconds, i only need longer fixes if the gps is shutdown longer  3hours or so, so i belive test how fast it locks or not could only be reliable if the gps is off a "longer" time13:04
jku|tbb|, that's right. Or at least the warm fixes are not that interesting13:05
jku(as long as they're <1min)13:06
jkuthe problem I had in Jan was that very often I just couldn't get a fix -- stood over 10 minutes in the middle of a park several times13:07
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|tbb|jku, 1 hour means warm fix???13:07
jkuno idea really...13:08
|tbb|lardman: my chief got a n95 and he says, the fix would be much faster if he conntect his n95  to a service from nokia which tell them where the sattelites positions are, is there something possible to do that with n8x0013:08
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jku|tbb|, yeah, should be13:08
|tbb|jku your confusing me13:09
jkuHeh;) No idea about what is a warm fix for the gps. but assisted GPS should be possible13:10
X-Fade|tbb|: I have a N95 and fix times were as bad as N810 before they added AGPS.13:10
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jottjohnx: yes, buttons work after I restart dbus and hal (and having the os2008 xkb dbus handlers copied)13:10
X-Fade|tbb|: People were really complaining about N95 gps before..13:10
|tbb|is that agps same as i talk, getting positions of the sattelite via internet?13:10
lardman|tbb|: 6 min is warm fix13:10
lardman|tbb|: I think that's how long the ephemeris data are valid13:11
|tbb|lardman: that means sometimes you get a fast fix even when a hour gps was shutdown?13:12
lardman|tbb|: pretty much yes, the assistance is computed by modelling the satellite orbits13:12
lardman|tbb|: you shouldn't really, unless there are few ephemeris corrections needed; though with that said even a cold fix with known almanac & position shouldn't take too long really. 18s or so to download the ephemeris data I remember seeing13:12
lardmandownload from the satellites that is13:13
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jku|tbb|, I checked: old satellite ephemeris data can be useful for several hours...13:16
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jkuthe same source says ephemeris data download takes about 30 secs, but lousy receivers may take a lot longer because you need to start over if there's a problem...13:19
|tbb|could we manuelly get the sattelites position data and use it with n8x0 in any way13:19
|tbb|btw through internet13:19
lardman|tbb|: that's the whole idea, if we can work out the format of nvd_data13:19
jku|tbb|, sure, from the web. The problem is the format the driver uses as lardman said13:20
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lardman|tbb|: e.g. supplies such data for the N9513:20
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* |tbb| wonders, when nokia knows about that problem (n95 n810 has same gps-chip) why the f*ck they dont support us13:21
lardmanperhaps they will.....13:21
* |tbb| take his wondering back13:21
lardmanthe N95 didn't have assistance when it was first released13:22
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hrw argh13:24
X-FadeN95 has the added problem that the antenna for GPS is located under the keypad. Which is not optimal :)13:24
lardmanhrw: hmm, interesting13:25
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X-Fadehrw: I'm sure you are now using a SDK version on the device?13:25
hrwX-Fade: no - its os2007.50.2 (aka os2008)13:26
X-Fadehrw: Yeah, but procps from the sdk repo..13:26
hrwX-Fade: yes13:26
X-FadeThat is only for the developer rootfs. Not the customer one..13:26
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hrwX-Fade: my OE built one also does not install as busybox is borken when it comes to alternatives13:26
hrwX-Fade: I am developer who use customer rootfs13:27
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X-Fadehrw: Then don't use the SDK repo ;)13:28
hrwX-Fade: problem appear also when I use own procps13:28
hrwbusybox provides/conflicts procps13:29
hrwand it should not do it but use update-alternatives instead13:29
X-FadeYeah, replacing busybox does that ;)13:29
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X-Fadeehm, replacing funcionality that is present in busybox..13:29
X-FadeHad that happen to me for insmod once :)13:29
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hrwreplacing busybox parts with full versions13:29
hrwX-Fade: OE busybox package allow to replace parts without problems13:30
hrwbut thats OE not maemo one13:30
X-Fadehrw: You are preaching to the choir ;)13:30
X-FadeI would like a proper shell, instead of busybox too. Same problem..13:31
hrwX-Fade: install bash then13:31
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pupnikhi someone make a dsp-based /dev/sequencer MIDI player kthxbai :P13:32
X-Fadehrmz.. people replying to Digest mail on mailinglists..13:33
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X-Fadehrw: Thanks for posting that bug..13:35
hrwX-Fade: vote then13:35
lardmanpupnik: is that a command?13:35
lardmanor has someone already done that?13:35
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pupnik:) no, just dreaming lardman.13:36
pupniktimidity taking 50% cpu on my athlon2800xp right now btw13:36
pupnikwell avg around 32%13:36
pupniki made a cpu-load reduced timidity tweak btw.13:37
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pupnikbtw lardman, .mid files range from ~2 to ~88kB here.  Fire-and-forget.13:39
lardmanpupnik: remind me in April, I may have some time then ;)13:40
jotthm wouldn't be fm synthesis enough? or do you really want full wavetable support? ;)13:40
pupnikyes an alternative would be adlib on dsp13:42
pupnikexposed as alsa /dev/sequencer for general purpose programs, or compiled/linked-in to games that want to control adlib directly13:43
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lcddhrw: i wonder if dpkg-divert would help there13:48
hrwlcdd: it would be workaround13:49
hrwlcdd: busybox package is broken13:49
hrwwith big '.... you nokia for l10n support':
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johnxpupnik, what are the things you did to make timidity lighter on CPU usage?14:10
|tbb|anyone useing n770 with os2007?14:12
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fugitivo|tbb|: i installed again gregale, it works much better now14:13
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|tbb|hmmh :(14:14
pupnikjohnx: i deleted the timidity tree sorry.  mostly config options14:15
johnxah, ok14:15
johnxdid you try it on the tablet?14:16
fugitivo|tbb|: it's faster, more stable and the touchscreen works better14:17
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solmumaha|tbb|: i have 770he, why?14:18
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pupnik  johnx14:21
johnxah, thanks :D14:22
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|tbb|solmumaha: could u try to setup an alarm (daily) and reboot the device and tell me if the alarm still remains?14:27
giskardwhat is the default mail application on the n810?14:28
|tbb|giskard: outlook 9814:29
|tbb|err it is stable like outlook 9814:29
giskarduhm, if i "dpkg -l | grep mail" i can't find it, but i don't have removed it, and i still have the Email icon in the menu14:31
pupnikgod, python on the tablet is like stuffing an athlete with pure lard14:31
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johnxI don't even know if it really has a name14:32
johnxmost of the packages that have "osso" and "email" in the name are at least part of the email program...14:35
GeneralAntillesosso-email is it.14:36
GeneralAntillesSoon to be replaced by Modest.14:36
johnx(and none too soon!)14:37
hrwsoon as os200914:37
johnxeh, the beta works just fine for me now14:38
johnxall I'm waiting for is to launch it from the contacts button...14:38
hrwbtw - who is maemo bugzilla admin?14:38
giskardehrr why if i run dpkg -l | grep blablaba by the  normal user i don't get results?14:38
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giskardbut if i do dpkg -l works..14:39
giskardeven with sudo gainroot before i cant `pipe` it14:39
GeneralAntillesjohnx, you could try playing with the .desktop14:40
GeneralAntillesbut no guarantees.14:40
johnxeh, I don't quite care enough14:40
johnxI hack around in Debian and for now I'd like to be able to come back to OS2008 and have it "Just work" (tm)14:40
GeneralAntillesWorks fine here, giskard.14:41
johnxgiskard, dpkg -l gives the same output as user and root for me14:41
giskardGeneralAntilles, via ssh it works14:41
* Jaffa finds Modest a bit of a memory hog, a battery drainer and not a particularly friendly piece of software to the rest of maemo14:41
Jaffahrw: ferenc14:42
GeneralAntillesWorks fine on the device, too.14:42
johnxJaffa, I agree that it's not an incredible, powerful, slim mail client...but it has a thick scroll bar and it doesn't choke on my gmail imap account or randomly delete mail14:43
hrwthx Jaffa14:43
johnxpractically everything else is just gravy to me...14:43
GeneralAntillesand, more importantly, it's still beta.14:43
lardmanaargh, I just discovered a day's worth of email which Outlook hasn't bothered to send14:44
lardman~lart Microsoft for being rubbish14:44
* infobot takes a rusty axe and swings it violently, taking Microsoft's head off for being rubbish14:44
solmumaha|tbb|: remind me later, i'm at work atm14:45
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|tbb|solmumaha: ok, plz remind me later then that remind you14:48
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solmumaha|tbb|: will do14:51
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: indeed, which is why I've raised bugs.14:57
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matmotips on porting and getting from x window to hildon window? Already using gdk_window_foreign_new() but my x/gdk/gtk/hildon-fu is almost non-existent :-)15:14
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johnxmatmo, have you seen the hildonization guide on
johnxthat's about all I can offer right now...15:14
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matmoyep, no help (at least to me). I saw the monkey bubbles thing but the app I am porting (Squeak) only uses X15:15
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matmoI thought there may be something similar to gdk_window_foreign_new() to get to hildon window.15:16
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TakI thought somebody (maddler?) already ported squeak15:21
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matmoTak: when, recently?15:21
Takhmm, I'm thinking at least a few months ago15:23
matmoafaik some have recompiled but none are what I would say ¨integrated¨15:24
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TakI seem to recall whoever it was putting quite a bit of effort into it15:29
Takmaddler: was that you?15:30
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maddlerno... it wasn't :)15:48
Takwell hell15:50
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maddlerdamn... registering/mantaining a .it domain is always pita!15:51
maddlerbeaurocracy kills!15:51
maddlerfaxes... notifications... verifications...15:52
maddlerit took 4 days to complete..15:52
maddlerjohnx: yeah!15:52
johnxto get an *internet* domain name?15:52
Taklol, that's what I was thinking15:52
maddleryou have to fax a letter... where you say who you are and assume responsability for that domain...15:53
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GeneralAntillesScrew statists.15:53
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maddlerthen someone will check received faxes against a list of domains awaiting for registration...15:53
Tak"We have faxed your password to 44-23-5584.  To complete registration, you must fax your username and the correct password to 43-22-9873."15:54
maddlerthen they will check if your DNS config is ok...15:54
maddlerand then the domain will be activated...15:54
maddlerBUT using NDS of the ISP you bought the domain from...15:55
maddlerthen you change them to your very own DNS...15:55
maddlerthen they check once more...15:55
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maddlerand THEN you have the domain working!15:55
GeneralAntillesPersonally, I find the whole idea incredibly disturbing.15:55
maddlerif all the steps went fine!15:55
maddlerGeneralAntilles: IT IS!15:55
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maddlercosidering I can have a .com/.net/.org domain working in about 3 minutes!15:56
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maddleroh.. they won't d anything during weekends and various holdays... of course...15:56
johnxmaddler, welcome to the future!15:56
maddlerso avoid sending faxes during holydais or right after...15:56
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maddlerbtw... I now own domain :D15:57
johnxthat is cool however15:58
johnxI guess one good thing is that it's harder for domain campers/spammers/advertising portals, to register a .it15:58
Takplus it just makes you that much cooler to have one15:59
TakI want a Cook Islands domain15:59
johnxjumpula, I stand corrected...15:59
johnxmaybe they the other spammy .it's just don't rank as high in google for me...15:59
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jumpulasuch a domain exists? :)16:00
Okkomaddler: don't define a catchall mail for it. I had an .it domain once and it received italian spam almost instantly.16:00
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maddlerOkko: I've got a specific mail account for that... :)16:06
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GeneralAntillesI saw that en engadget16:21
GeneralAntillesI like the new matchbox look.16:21
alteregoThe image is my tablet's screenshot :)16:21
alteregoThe guy that did it just pasted that link to me ^_^16:21
GeneralAntillesIt's so ridiculously oversized.16:23
GeneralAntillesYou need to hire a team of immigrant laborer's to take turns wearing it as a backpack and squatting down in front of you.16:24
johnxactually, you could get by with a maybe a back brace and a sturdy guitar strap16:25
johnxmaybe a sling that holds one arm in place16:25
GeneralAntillesHave a pivot attached to your utility belt?16:25
GeneralAntillesStrap goes around your neck.16:25
johnxhmm...his stylus needs to be bigger16:25
* Tak forward some spam emails16:26
* GeneralAntilles just got an awesome idea for a personal TV-tray.16:26
johnxGeneralAntilles, please say you're thinking of an old-school CRT TV :D16:26
GeneralAntillesNo, just a wooden table16:27
GeneralAntillesone end attaches to a belt16:27
GeneralAntillesthe other has a strap that goes around your neck16:27
GeneralAntillesyou can walk around with it.16:27
johnxthat's no fun16:27
johnxhow about something cool like this:
GeneralAntillesYes, but it might be marketable. :P16:28
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LoCusFomg :D16:30
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hrwPackage must have "Section: user/FOO" to be considered compatible.16:32
johnxhrw, welcome to maemo. Aren't you glad you joined us? :D16:32
* johnx needs to catch some sleep16:32
johnx'night all16:32
hrwjohnx: sweet dreams16:33
pupnikhrw read the porting / packaging guidelines on maemo.org16:33
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hrwpupnik: will have to16:35
Takjohnx: Don't fall asleep!  The clowns will eat you!16:35
johnxthey will find me a most discomforting flavour I'm afraid...16:35
hrwpupnik: maemo appmanager is just insane ;)16:35
coffee88anyone got a sec to look at some short, bad, client-server test code?  my g_io_channel_write_chars version no work.16:36
coffee88I assume I'm missing something basic here...16:36
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Takcoffee88: try g_io_channel_flush() ‽16:40
Tak(after writing)16:41
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coffee88Tak: wa-hey!  that was it!  why the server closed the connection anyway without it, I'm not sure...16:43
* coffee88 gives Tak a sweetie.16:44
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TakI don't think my current sweetie would be very happy about that...16:44
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pupnikapt-cache search sweetie16:45
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solmumahapupnik: does virtual keyboard work with fullscreen sdl apps?16:47
solmumahamakes it useless then16:48
coffee88Tak: I assume if I have a listening callback on a socket, I can still just write to it whenever I want? for full bi-directional comms?16:48
TakI have little experience with giochannel; your guess is as good as mine16:48
coffee88mine haven't  been very good to date!  I guess I'll just have to try it and see.16:49
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Takit would seem to make little sense to allow callbacks if they couldn't interact with the channel ;-)16:51
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coffee88that's what I figured.  and the channel seems like it should be two way, if non blocking in the app...16:52
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pupnikjott: around?16:54
jottpupnik: yes16:55
pupnikah nm i broke exult build again16:56
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pupnikhave you heard back about the SDL N810 keyboard problem?16:58
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jottwhich one? :)16:58
pupnikthe lack of Fn key support - your patch for dosbox16:59
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pupniki haven't found any problems with it16:59
pupnik*patch for libSDL16:59
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jottah.. no.. have to do that..16:59
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pupnikone thing about running in the vmware client is big builds seem to run a bit slower17:06
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dpb_of course stuff runs slower in a virtual machine...17:07
jottpupnik: i wonder if we could find a proper upstream solution..17:08
pupnik 443172 Sep 17 07:05 /usr/lib/libSDL.a  that's a lot to link-in statically :|17:08
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alteregoXen, KVM ..17:11
alteregoI use KVM for maemo development, it even has support for multiple cores.17:11
jottwell another option would be to provide libsdl 1.2.13 and overwrite the base system one ;)17:11
pupnikyeah ssvb and others were talking about hacker-libSDL's on maemo-developers last year17:12
pupnikfor e.g. a 400x240 sdl window could implement double-buffering17:12
jottthis would also allow to integrate pixeldoubling.17:12
jottsome nice tweaks here and there17:12
pupnikwould also allow adding a generic sdl_onscreen_keyboard class17:15
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jotthm well i suppose that should be in an extra lib like SDL_vkb or so17:16
jott(as sdl_ttf etc)17:16
TakI might implement one using valagame, should I get around to it17:16
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pupnikoh yeah true17:16
jottwould be nice project though...17:16
Taksince nobody wants to use rubygame :-P17:17
jottas so many sdl programs reimplemnt this17:17
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pupnikif SDL app requests a fullscreen surface, then how would the virtual keyboard be 'above' it, in a generic way..17:21
Takyou can just pass a surface for it to blit onto17:21
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Takit doesn't care if it's the base video surface, or a toplevel game surface, etc17:22
jottthe keyboard has to be implemented in the sdl application code anyway17:22
Takit can just be used like a library17:23
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Takor, more likely, SDL_showKeyboard(mySurface, myKBClosedCallback);17:23
* Tak has already spent a lot of time thinking about this problem17:24
jottor SDL_showKeyboard(vkb_id, mySurface);  :)17:24
jottTak: well then give use code after a brain-dump ;>17:25
TakI already have code17:25
Takprobably vkb_id will be an argument to SDL_initKeyboard()  ;-)17:26
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jottah  mockup or really working? ;)17:28
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Takhowever, it's in ruby17:28
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Takhowever, I may recreate in vala, which would give a nice, gobject-based api to use from C17:29
jottgobject dependency would be bad :(17:30
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* b0r0las saluda en español...17:31
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* b0r0las pregunta: alguien que hable español?17:32
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Takyo hablo un poquito, pero no muy bien17:32
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Takjott: worse than a ruby dependency? ;-)17:32
jottnot a big difference actually ;)17:33
* Tak shrugs17:33
b0r0lasTak, gracias... pregunta sencilla: existe un listado de los paquetes .deb que se puedan instalar en un n800?17:33
Takb0r0las: http://downloads.maemo.org17:33
pupnikTak that picture gave me an evil idea17:33
GeneralAntillesFor the non-ITTers:
Takb0r0las: hay tambien muchos informaciones @ http://www.internettablettalk.com17:34
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I'd hope that everyone here regularly kept up with p.m.o17:36
* Tak doesn't17:37
GeneralAntillesb0r0las, tambien.17:37
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thpwhere can I upload my SSH key to
thpor: is there ssh access for SVN?17:42
b0r0lasGeneralAntilles, muchas gracias... es un excelente listado... veo que se puede instalar hasta postgresql :)17:46
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coffee88Hmmm.  any idea why a g_io_add_watch callback with g_io_channel_read_line on it would seem to fire continually?!17:52
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Takwhat condition are you watching for?17:57
coffee88iowatch = g_io_add_watch(netchan, G_IO_IN, io_callback, NULL);17:57
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Takis there continually data to be read?17:58
Takis your callback returning FALSE ‽17:59
coffee88nope.  shouldn't be.  server sends manual input line, and msg in callback seems to read back as NULL.  calback returns true...17:59
coffee88DOH!  may have spotted something... hold on.18:00
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coffee88no.  I haven't.18:00
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coffee88callback is at
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Takhmm - try flushing when you hit end-of-input?18:03
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coffee88Hmmmm.  I'm starting to wonder if it's anything to do with buffers, or lack of them...18:04
* coffee88 goes to do more research...18:04
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pupnikInternet traffic report.  What's going on here?
maddlerpupnik: duno... but network is damn slow here (.it) as well...18:06
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oilpupnik: india lost quite a few sea-cables this week/last week. could it be related?18:07
oilah.. you mean iran?18:07
pupnikIran is gone.18:08
oilhuge emp distroyed it18:08
pupnikIran was expected to open its oil bourse this week to compete with London and NY. It was expected to trade oil for currencies other than US dollars.18:09
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oilcurrency should not matter.. but maybe that they would not sell the oil to some countries18:10
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GeneralAntillesIran is not gone.18:15
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jottbut florida is gone: *scnr*18:16
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GeneralAntillesI can personally attest to the falsity of THAT particular claim.18:16
Takditto18:17 is a *very* coarse approximation to the net topology..18:18
blafaselYeah, according to that site Germany is out as well..18:20
blafaselPing! Can anyone read this? ;)18:20
coffee88damn.  not a buffer issue by the look of it.18:22
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lardman~lart mobile phone service provider companies18:33
* infobot whips mobile phone service provider companies with a wet and grimy noodle just because18:34
Takhey!  those are /my/ grimy noodles!18:34
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pupnik member function `void SoundTester::test_sound()':18:36 error: cannot convert `Font*' to `_XFont_*' in initialization18:36
* pupnik bangs head on desk18:36
pupnikand i can't get a simple #undef Font to apply ... or maybe the scope of it is the problem18:37
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lardmanTak: your noodles because you work for one or because you have the same problems?18:42
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TakI just like grimy noodles18:43
lardmanall good :)18:43
lardmanhrw: after my singing the praises of OE, it seems to fail on fontconfig, though it's a problem with the maemo repo18:44
lardmanhrw: I thought I might write a maemo specific HowTo get started in the same vein as those old Zaurus ones18:44
jottlardman: still building octave?18:46
* jott would be interested in an optimized octave build too :)18:47
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pupnik./shapeid.h:30: error: conflicting declaration 'struct Font'18:51
pupnik/usr/include/X11/X.h:105: error: 'Font' has a previous declaration as `typedef XID Font'18:51
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pupnik#undef Font18:51
pupnikclass Font;18:51
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pupnikwhy doesn't #undef Font prevent that error18:51
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Takpupnik: is this c++ code?18:52
Takwhy not use namespacing to avoid the issue?18:53
pupniki just added Xsp to exult and the X11 include broke it18:53
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pupnik#include <X11/Xlib.h>  that breaks it18:53
pupnikbut Xlib.h is required for Xsp i think18:53
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zottdFont is a type, probably cant be #undef18:54
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pupnikhi zodttd  :)18:55
zodttdhi :)18:55
zodttdI snuck in here :P18:55
pupniki'm trying to quickly 'finish' up things i started last year so i can move on18:56
zodttdTry this18:56
zodttdcrappy workaround but should work...18:57
zodttdYou can typedef before the X11 include: typedef NewFontType Font;18:58
zodttdAnd #define Font NewFontType18:58
zodttdMuch better ways of going about this though, as Tak implied18:58
lardmanjott: Octave is built18:58
jottlardman: ah nice18:58
jkuaw crap. my test packages for osso-gpsd  had version 1.0-25-jku0. That actually prevents "apt-get upgrade" as osso-software-version depends on a specific version18:59
lardmanI'll put it up somewhere tonight when I get home18:59
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zodttdAh crap, mention of Zaurus...I need to update some stuff on it.18:59
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lardmanzodttd: I'd be suprised if my batteries work anymore18:59
jottpupnik: you could also put the xsd code in an extra cpp/h file to avoid any conflicts..18:59
jkuso if enayone did install osso-gpsd 1.0-25-jku0, please install the original version from
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lardmanjku: why's that?19:00
zodttdlardman: I think my C1000 is working fine still19:00
jkulardman: osso-software-version depends on a specific osso-gpsd version19:00
lardmanzodttd: did you do the ps1 emu?19:00
jkuanything else will make apt complain19:00
lardmanjku: ah yes, I saw that19:00
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zodttdYes :)19:02
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lardmanhow do I get apt to tell me the version again?19:02
dragornjku: Cool.  Good work with those, btw.19:02
lardmanzodttd: working on a version for the ITs?19:02
zodttdlardman: ITs?19:02
dragornjku: tho seeing yet another gpsd clone made me kind of sad :P19:02
zodttdInternet Tablets?19:02
zodttdAh, look towards pupnik ;P19:03
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lardmanwhat I need is a Nintendo DS emu19:03
lardmanso I can play bomberman vs my gf19:03
zodttdlardman: That would work well on the Zaurus :P19:03
pupnikthanks for the tips19:03
TakI think pupnik compiled desmume19:03
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pupnikwhat, isn't pcsx fast enough for you?19:04
* zodttd ducks19:04
dragornlardman: Doubt it would work, the wifi drivers won't let you do the packet injection you need, even if the emu does passthrough19:04
matmoanyone know how to cast/make a gdk window into a gtk window?19:04
jkudragorn, clone? do you mean gypsy or what?19:04
dragornjku: yeah19:04
dragornjku: not that gpsd doesn't have it's issues19:05
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jkuyou can say that again19:05
dragornjku: but yet another api makes me kinda sad.  Especially one that requires dbus/glib.19:05
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jkudragorn: well, I'll take thos instead of tcp/ip sockets any day19:07
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pupniksucks that xsp has to be enabled *before* sdl_init19:07
dragornjku: Makes it a total pain in the ass for anyone with a codebase that isn't glib, however.19:07
jkuhow so?19:08
pupniksomeday i'll just discard the sdl-surface, create a fullscreen x window and use mplayer's framebuffer code19:08
dragornjku: The glib/dbus bindings tend to like to control the main loop.  That's not an option, and I'm not rewriting 40,000 lines of code for it :P19:09
jkuYeah, I guess that's true19:09
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K-Foxreally , i want to know setting of usb networking .  n800 <---> winxp (os2008)19:10
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dragornjku: but believe me, I deeply appreciate how annoying gpsd is19:10
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dragornjku: about every 6 months I butt heads with them over it19:10
dragornjku: ESR is pissed at me that I added direct serial gps control into my dev code19:11
dragornor at least, annoyed.  But he often seems annoyed.19:11
jkuyou work on kismet, right?19:11
lardmanWinXP needs a reboot, bbiam19:11
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dragornworking on adding mouse support to the new UI right now, actually.  Still curses, but will have tap support for most of the interface.19:12
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Alenditdoes anyone have some experiences with aircrack on n800?19:34
dragornyes.  don't bother.19:35
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dragornThe only method which has a chance of being doable on an embedded device requires injection capability, which you don't have.19:35
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hrwand which you will not get as tablets wifi is totally closed19:38
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dragornunless you really get excited at the idea of running a brute force attack that would keep a high-end cluster busy for some time, on a handheld.  Then by all means knock yourself out. :P19:40
lardmanWhat's the deal with that, I thought someone was working on an open version?19:40
dragornor if you've got another method of generating injected frames, in which case, why are you trying to do the heavy lifting on a handheld, still.19:41
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dragornor unless you compiled USB drivers for a NIC with proper support and kicked the device into host mode, i suppose19:41
dragornlardman: not that I know of.  A long long long time ago I saw something where someone got a prism54 driver hacked into working on the 770, but it's been dead since then and I haven't seen anyone pick it up19:42
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lardmanah, and it's a different chipset on the N8x0 anyway isn't it?19:42
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dragorni'm not sure.  I don't think it's significantly different, the nokia drivers have the same name19:42
lardmanoh right19:43
dragornbut being generally really busy, and not wanting to nuke my device, I haven't looked into trying to put a .23/.24 kernel on it with the mac80211 prism54 softmac drivers19:43
dragornI don't know what they'd do19:43
dragorn(probably nothing, since they probably don't have a connection to whatever bus the NIC is on)19:43
hrwI wonder does nokia have docs/sources for chipset. connexant (vendor of wifi chip) is known to not release anything rather19:46
lardmanI'm more interested in the PowerVR speaking of closed devices19:46
dragornhrw: one of the nokia coders (kalle, i think) said on the maemo list that releasing the driver source is not an option19:46
hrwdragorn: exactly19:46
dragornhrw: and that adding injection is also not an option unless someone can prove a business case for it19:46
hrwlardman: 3d acceleration?19:46
lardmanhrw: yep19:46
dragornapparently "you'll sell a lot of devices in the security market" isn't a good enough reason19:46
pupnikhey jott i have a great idea! how about YOU implement pixel-doubling or accelerated blitting for exult?  speeds up display incredibly19:47
pupnikgot it built here but have the usual hellish xsp garbage19:47
lardmanAnyone know of any code that does call tree analysis/diagrams?19:50
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lardmanMight have to sit down and write one in MATLAB19:50
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NaviIn what order should the maemo-sdk be built in?19:57
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GeneralAntillesThe correct one.19:59
NaviOh, of course!19:59
* Navi hits GeneralAntilles with an old newspaper19:59
GeneralAntillesCheck the tutorial?20:00
K-Foxreally , i want to know setting of usb networking .  n800 <---> winxp (os2008)20:00
NaviThat wiki fuxxix up with the newest gecko revision :|20:00
GeneralAntillesThen don't use the newest Gecko revision.20:01
NaviBut... but.. you're mean ;_;20:01
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K-Fox ><20:02
K-Foxthis is right?20:02
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NaviGeneralAntilles, I'm going to kill you with my lasgun.20:03
GeneralAntillesmaemo doesn't have lasguns.20:04
GeneralAntillesIt's one option, I suppose, K-Fox.20:04
GeneralAntillesI have no experience with Windows, though.20:04
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GeneralAntillesTry this maybe, K-Fox.
pupnikah fixed it woot20:05
Alendittime for some ads...20:06
Alenditif you want to have whole wikipedia on your nokia (3,2gb english, 1gb german) visit
K-FoxGeneralAntilles : thanks..20:07
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Mouseysay. why isn't dhcp rewriting my resolv.conf?20:09
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Jaffamaemo uses dnsmasq20:17
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elbthe wireless on this 810 is suspiciously slow20:22
elbI had thought it might be scp, but http isn't a ton faster20:22
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elbperhaps wpa is muddling it up20:23
K-Foxwhat is gumstix?20:23
pupniki get about 700kB/s on n810 with WEP elb20:25
pupnikwill test again20:25
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elbthat's about what I'm seeing with WPA20:26
elbbut I would expect more like twice that, if it were saturating the network20:27
pupnikhow are you measuring20:27
elbwatching pull times for a large (150MB) file20:28
pupnikvia scp, nfs, samba, wget, browser download?  of LAN or Web?20:32
elbbrowser download, LAN20:33
elbas I said before, my first test was scp, and I thought it might have been that overhead20:34
elbbut http via the browser wasn't significantly faster20:34
Takwhat about media write speed?20:34
elbsurely the internal flash isn't slower htan 802.11g20:34
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* sp3000 wonders why maemo-mapper decided to grab 31 8188kB chunks of memory21:11
sp3000(virtual size, resident is just 16kB for most of those)21:12
sp3000so my device is being all sorry dave I can't let you browse the web now :)21:13
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* sp3000 fetches some sp-endurance goodness for tracking the sucker21:14
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jukedoes the N810 charging when only usb is plugged ?21:25
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elbjuke: no21:26
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Takjuke: No, it charges any time the AC power is plugged in21:27
elb(unless it thinks it's charged)21:27
Takwell, yes21:27
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lardmanjott: you after Octave?21:33
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lardmannot quite a real feed as there's no packages list, must work that one out21:35
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lardmanoh yes, and a vfp libm in there, so you ought to do some LD_LIBRARY magic when running them to get the best performance21:36
lardmans/LD_LIBRARY/LD_LIBRARY_PATH         of course21:36
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pupnikcan i make a .deb that app manager will install regardless of OS version?21:45
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Takdepends on the dependencies21:46
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pupniki'd like to do an installer that installs game data for exult21:50
pupnikwithout requiring shell21:50
Takyeah, you should be able to install a game data installer deb on any OS21:51
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pupnikTak: but not if it's 30 MB and user has 20 MB free, right?21:56
Takit depends - if the game data is all contained in the deb, then no.21:57
TakYou could have the user download a tar.gz to, say, /media/mmc1/, then have the deb just be a script to install it correctly21:58
Takor you could have the deb be a script that downloads and installs a tar.gz21:59
pupnikok that's the simplest.  deb will install wget22:00
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||cwcan you have a deb ask for the dir to install to and let the user choose the mmc or whatever?  will application manager freak out about it?22:02
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keesj||cw: I think this is possible (specialy for data) , just like asking for the  memu options22:05
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lardmanisn't the size field checked by app manager?22:07
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lardmandoes anyone know of a script that will generate a Packages file?22:09
Taklet me see if I still have mine22:09
Takalso, you should be using garage extras :-P22:10
lardmanonce I learn how to sumbit packages, then yes22:10
lardmanor even submit them22:10
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Takoh, dpkg-scanpackages22:15
maddlerhey all22:15
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lardmanTak: ah, ok thanks. Will do that when I get back to Linux-land22:16
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lardmanhi maddler22:16
jottlardman: reprepro is quite nice for repository creation/management22:18
jottfetching your octave now ;)22:18
jotthave you tested the performance impact of the vfp libm?22:18
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lardmanjott: no, and in fact this is a new build so I don't even know that it works ;)22:18
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jotthehe kk ;) done with oe?22:19
lardmanjott: actually that not quite true, I've tested the impact of vfp libm, just not with octave22:19
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lardmanjott: no, OE is great, just been pretty busy today, and had to rebuild my computer over the weekend22:19
jottah yeah..22:19
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lardmanwhat was the conclusion of the extras feed anyway, how does one upload stuff?22:20
jotthow significant is the performance difference (like when using a vfp enabled build with a non vfp libm)?22:20
lardman might have something22:21
jott(and the testcase for sure if it only uses regular floating point operations and very few sqrt/.../libm functions it will not be that drastic ;-)22:21
lardmanhmm, I had nbench compiled somewhere22:22
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lardmanright, here's a comparison for vfp compiled nbench with and without vfp libm22:24
lardmanwihout - (just the omap2420 results)22:24
lardmanwith -
lardmanlook at the results for Fourier for example22:24
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lardmanand this is the code so they aren't just random numbers ;)
jottand now the magic question, how would a vfp libm perform with other non vfp libs ;)22:25
lardmanthat I don't know, but just work some LD_LIBRARY_PATH magic and test22:25
jottyeah will do, later..22:26
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lardmanI run Octave from a script after setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to the vfp libm, need to do some speed comparisons22:26
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jottlardman: ok so the fourier slowness is due to the extensive pow usage i suppose :)22:31
jottlardman: do you know some good libm focused benchmark on top of your head? otherwise i might craw netlib a bit :)22:33
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ds3anyone else bugged by the on hover CSS used by ITT?23:15
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