| *** ijon_ has quit IRC | 00:00 | |
| timeless | Trykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt hen til fortsette venter. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| timeless | => | 00:00 |
| timeless | Accents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off affection at carry on awaiting. | 00:00 |
| timeless | that's not bad :) | 00:01 |
| czr | hmm. I'm trying to verify the "localhost internet sockets don't work in offline mode" (maemo-devel, grep for "web based local application GUIs") | 00:01 |
| halley | What repo has sqlite3? maemopad+ requires it. | 00:01 |
| halley | (chinook) | 00:01 |
| czr | halley, not in extras? | 00:01 |
| timeless | Trykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt til fortsette venter. | 00:02 |
| timeless | Accents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off at carry on awaiting. | 00:02 |
| halley | czr, I've only seen the -dev version, not the actual lib. | 00:02 |
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| timeless | Trykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt for C% fortsette venter. | 00:02 |
| timeless | Accents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off to carry on awaiting. | 00:02 |
| timeless | how's that sound? :) | 00:02 |
| czr | halley, hmm. is it on the device then? | 00:03 |
| czr | the packages that are present on the device are not present in the sdk sometimes | 00:03 |
| czr | I always failed to see the logic in that, but I'm only a sad luser. | 00:03 |
| timeless | usually legal messes :) | 00:04 |
| halley | not in "show installed applications" even under redpill | 00:04 |
| timeless | Et skript pC% denne siden kan vC&re opptatt, eller det kan ha sluttet C% svare. Trykk OK for stopp skript nC%, eller Avbryt for C% fortsette venter. | 00:04 |
| timeless | A the script at this end can be absorbed , or facts able have closed to answer. Accents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off to carry on awaiting. | 00:04 |
| timeless | (that first sentence was written by the localizer) | 00:04 |
| czr | halley, ii libsqlite3-0 3.4.1-1osso3 SQLite 3 shared library | 00:04 |
| czr | halley, device running os2008, dpkg -l | grep sql | 00:04 |
| halley | Oh, didn't look in the Ls silly me. | 00:05 |
| timeless | /sqlite3-3.4.1/debian/control | 00:05 |
| timeless | is on the device | 00:05 |
| timeless | well, the result of that anyway :) | 00:05 |
| czr | one result of that :-) | 00:05 |
| * czr pokes timeless | 00:05 | |
| timeless | the control file specifies libsqlite3-0 and libsqlite3-dev | 00:05 |
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| timeless | presumably dev didn't make it :) | 00:06 |
| timeless | ijon: ping | 00:06 |
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| timeless | http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pDeYoHoi4NZeSGjFwc8UCfg&hl=en# | 00:06 |
| czr | it's not required on the device. | 00:06 |
| timeless | please consider the russian | 00:06 |
| timeless | czr: dev? sure | 00:06 |
| czr | but I guess it's in free/extras. | 00:06 |
| czr | timeless, why would it be? | 00:06 |
| halley | Next-- how to find japanese fonts, and input method? | 00:06 |
| halley | The maemocjk page looks promising but stale after google summer of code. | 00:07 |
| halley | Don't know if that's the route for chinook or not. | 00:07 |
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| timeless | halley: complain to browser-extras for not offering fonts :) | 00:08 |
| timeless | czr: so, back to russian | 00:08 |
| timeless | can you convert bz's suggestion to cyrillic? | 00:08 |
| lardman | aaaargh | 00:09 |
| * timeless pokes lardman | 00:09 | |
| lardman | anyone know where I can find gcc-3.4.x for Mandrake? | 00:09 |
| kaltsi | hm was there something with the libsqlite3-0.. it seems to be in the sdk repo with the -dev | 00:10 |
| lardman | ~lart Mandrake/Mandriva for neither having new nor old program versions | 00:10 |
| * infobot chops Mandrake/Mandriva in half with a free Solaris 7 CD for neither having new nor old program versions | 00:10 | |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/source/sqlite3-3.4.1/debian/control | 00:10 |
| timeless | the xref says chinook has /some/ part of sqlite | 00:11 |
| timeless | too bad for me, my browser just crashed | 00:11 |
| kaltsi | timeless: what's missing? | 00:11 |
| kaltsi | ok the sqlite3-doc | 00:11 |
| czr | timeless, unf not really. I don't write cyrillic. reading is possible (slow but possible), writing not. | 00:12 |
| czr | timeless, also I'm crap at russian grammar as it is. never studied the language | 00:12 |
| timeless | can you repeat it and ask the last .ru (ijon) to write it? :) | 00:12 |
| sp3000 | timeless: can you explain what script having stopped responding means in the en strings? :) | 00:12 |
| sp3000 | I mean the script can stop the browser responding, but the script not responding to things wouldn't tend to hurt more than the document's interaction | 00:13 |
| timeless | "having"? | 00:13 |
| timeless | oh | 00:13 |
| timeless | well, um.. so... | 00:13 |
| sp3000 | which makes me wonder where it came from | 00:13 |
| czr | timeless, not really :-). | 00:13 |
| timeless | practically speaking, if the script is running the browser as we hacked it may try to stop the script | 00:13 |
| halley | I wish there was a maemopad+ that didn't rely on a database. Flat files are so much easier to deal with. | 00:13 |
| czr | timeless, but keep your eyes open for other ru-speaking. I know there are some | 00:14 |
| * timeless repokes ijon | 00:14 | |
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| timeless | ijon_: are you alive? i'm looking for someone to encode a word (reagirovat) in cyrillic | 00:17 |
| timeless | sp3000: anyway | 00:18 |
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| timeless | the way things wokr in gecko | 00:18 |
| fysa | does /etc/network/if-up.d/ work? | 00:18 |
| timeless | if operation foo starts | 00:18 |
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| timeless | and is stupid enough to try to suspend | 00:18 |
| timeless | it suspends by getting stuck in the C stack until the thing that is now being processes finishes | 00:18 |
| timeless | if you have slowscripts in two windows | 00:18 |
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| timeless | then the script in the first window will not function at *all* until the slow script in the second window completes | 00:19 |
| timeless | in this stupid edge case, the document not responding hurts more than just itself | 00:19 |
| timeless | in some quasi ideal case, other things may be able to respond | 00:20 |
| timeless | but in standard gecko, practically speaking *nothing* but the script is running until the slow script completes | 00:20 |
| timeless | it kind of depends on how strangely things operate | 00:20 |
| timeless | note that it's not supposed to be "document" | 00:21 |
| timeless | properly it's "connected window set" | 00:21 |
| halley | Hm, I don't like the topedge buttons being basically unreachable if the screen is popped up. | 00:21 |
| timeless | if window 1 opens window 2, they're "connected" | 00:21 |
| timeless | which means while a script is running in window 2, window 1 should not be allowed to respond to yuou | 00:21 |
| timeless | an iframe in window 2 would stop an iframe in window 1 | 00:21 |
| db48x | yea | 00:22 |
| sp3000 | right, it's the language rather | 00:22 |
| * czr sees timeless working on his 24/7 :-) | 00:22 | |
| *** pdz- is now known as pdz | 00:22 | |
| db48x | I think we should scrap the single threaded cooperative multitasking part of javascript | 00:22 |
| czr | timeless, you're destined to fail though. I just put on some more coffee :-) | 00:22 |
| timeless | czr: i'm actually 24/6+ something | 00:22 |
| derf | We should scrap the single threaded cooperative multitasking part of everything. | 00:22 |
| czr | timeless, ah, you need more training then :-) | 00:22 |
| timeless | i have a blackout period which is technically 25hrs (shifting) | 00:23 |
| db48x | the problem is that it makes it more difficult to write correct programs | 00:23 |
| czr | derf, yes, I'm been telling people that the Linux kernel is shaite! | 00:23 |
| * czr hides & runs | 00:23 | |
| db48x | and javascript is supposed to be simple and easy | 00:23 |
| derf | db48x: Hah! | 00:23 |
| timeless | derf: this was a promise web browsers made to web page authors | 00:23 |
| sp3000 | not responding rather sounds like someone's poking at it and it's not doing anything | 00:23 |
| sp3000 | but afaiui nothing's poking at it | 00:23 |
| czr | sp3000, it does indeed. | 00:23 |
| db48x | sp3000: that's a fair description | 00:23 |
| timeless | sp3000: in standard gecko if you click the window, nothing will happen | 00:24 |
| timeless | "it's busy" | 00:24 |
| sp3000 | for the app, yeah | 00:24 |
| sp3000 | but not so much the script | 00:24 |
| db48x | sp3000: the os is sending it requests to paint something, and it can't because it's too busy solving the halting problem or something | 00:24 |
| timeless | in hacked microb, it might do "something" | 00:24 |
| timeless | including breaking the web app :) | 00:24 |
| czr | db48x, s/halting/turing/ | 00:24 |
| db48x | no, halting is the correct word | 00:24 |
| sp3000 | db48x: yeah but the script doesn't paint | 00:25 |
| czr | db48x, it was a joke. | 00:25 |
| db48x | ah | 00:25 |
| alterego | This home theme looks _hawt_ .. | 00:25 |
| db48x | sp3000: details, details | 00:25 |
| timeless | sp3000: eh? | 00:25 |
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| timeless | sp3000: technically | 00:25 |
| derf | sp3000: No, but nothing _can_ paint while the script is running. | 00:25 |
| timeless | "A script somewhere relating to this window is causing this and related windows to stop responding" | 00:25 |
| sp3000 | :) | 00:26 |
| db48x | packing a technically precise description of the real problem into a single sentance isn't going to help | 00:26 |
| derf | I have this problem with lots of sites that execute a ginormous amount of javascript on load. | 00:26 |
| db48x | the sentance will be too long to be useful | 00:26 |
| timeless | translating that won't help matters | 00:26 |
| derf | It will make the entire browser unresponsive for several seconds. | 00:26 |
| timeless | worse, the impl we have is amazingly broken | 00:26 |
| timeless | so, i'd rather not promise correctness we break :) | 00:26 |
| db48x | derf: yea, that's what this is about. if it goes on like that for too long, this message appears | 00:26 |
| czr | I've never seen any ecmascript implementation that wasn't fishy | 00:27 |
| timeless | czr: ecmascript isn't bad | 00:27 |
| timeless | it's dom that's fishy | 00:27 |
| czr | but I haven't really been looking for couple of years. but they all were pretty hacky when I did the last research round | 00:27 |
| db48x | timeless: is that because of that patch oleg showed us that I objected to? | 00:27 |
| timeless | db48x: probably | 00:27 |
| czr | well, ecmascript + the environment support for doing anything useful. | 00:27 |
| sp3000 | db48x: I don't think it needs to be long to say teh script is stuck :) | 00:27 |
| kaltsi | anything that can be confused with emacs cannot be totally bad | 00:27 |
| timeless | i objected first, i'm sure | 00:27 |
| db48x | timeless: yea, probably | 00:27 |
| sp3000 | db48x: but to me it now sounsd like trying to be technical ans missing | 00:27 |
| db48x | timeless: you've been working with it longer, after all | 00:27 |
| czr | kaltsi, but can't be totally good either :-) | 00:28 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/browser/mozilla/trunk/microb-engine/microb-engine/debian/patches/perf_addon/JSBreakExperimental.diff | 00:28 |
| kaltsi | <3 emacs | 00:28 |
| timeless | that one? :) | 00:28 |
| sp3000 | db48x: which gets doubly horrible when you translate it to something where 'not responding' doesn't sort of roll off the tongue | 00:28 |
| db48x | timeless: yea, that's the one | 00:28 |
| db48x | sp3000: yea, I understand | 00:28 |
| timeless | db48x: my spec says you're supposed to freeze things | 00:28 |
| timeless | he doesn't | 00:28 |
| * timeless grumbles | 00:29 | |
| timeless | db48x: you're free to get it right | 00:29 |
| timeless | redfive had a windows impl | 00:29 |
| timeless | i'm not sure it's so bad | 00:29 |
| db48x | heh | 00:29 |
| db48x | I figure we should separate the gtk main thread from the gecko main thread | 00:29 |
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| timeless | please | 00:29 |
| timeless | i had a proposal for something more fun | 00:29 |
| timeless | namely each script "world" gets its own thread | 00:29 |
| db48x | so the outer gtk app can respond to events and paint even if the inner embedded gecko can't | 00:29 |
| db48x | yea? | 00:29 |
| db48x | cool, I think | 00:30 |
| timeless | basically all js accesses to dom objects get proxied to the dom thread | 00:30 |
| timeless | but if a script world gets slow. too bad | 00:30 |
| timeless | and if the user clicks a link in a page that was running scripts | 00:30 |
| czr | you do realize that using threads like this will make debugging close to impossible and waste a lot of memory? | 00:30 |
| timeless | the page moves, and when the js tries to touch it, it dies | 00:30 |
| db48x | czr: so? | 00:30 |
| czr | just checking :-) | 00:30 |
| timeless | czr: for one, we have a script debugger | 00:30 |
| db48x | czr: it won't make it harder for page authors to debug | 00:30 |
| timeless | for another, i had patches to make it thread safe | 00:31 |
| czr | that wasn't the debugging I meant | 00:31 |
| db48x | czr: because the runtime constraints for the page will stay the same | 00:31 |
| czr | again. I'm not worried about page/script authors. | 00:31 |
| timeless | czr: you're confused | 00:31 |
| czr | of course. but that's another issue :-) | 00:31 |
| timeless | debugging spidermonkey crashes already requires an expert | 00:31 |
| timeless | n has at most one such person (me) | 00:32 |
| czr | and you plan to make it harder still? | 00:32 |
| timeless | there are not more than 2 dozen such people world wide | 00:32 |
| timeless | the gecko side would not change under my proposal | 00:32 |
| timeless | since it's still single threaded | 00:32 |
| czr | ah | 00:32 |
| czr | I got that bit wrong then | 00:32 |
| alterego | czr, this is what I've been playing with for the past 5 hours ^_^: http://alterego.freeshell.org/tablet_home_20071127-223309.png | 00:32 |
| timeless | all that changes is that js *only* on other threads | 00:32 |
| timeless | and must proxy to get objects from the ui thread | 00:32 |
| timeless | it's a perf penalty on dom objects | 00:33 |
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| timeless | it might be possible to offer some optimization where you can somehow get special access to a window's objects for a time period | 00:33 |
| czr | alterego, what is? | 00:33 |
| czr | alterego, the theme? you made it? | 00:33 |
| timeless | that'd be annoying and require a lot of work | 00:33 |
| alterego | czr, yeah | 00:34 |
| timeless | the basic impl would require 100% proxying for dom objects | 00:34 |
| alterego | czr, and a bunch-o-scripts to help create more. | 00:34 |
| db48x | yea, that would be a lot of work | 00:34 |
| czr | alterego, ah nice. documentation on how to use them too? :-) | 00:34 |
| timeless | db48x: anyway, i think my script world proposal isn't so bad | 00:34 |
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| timeless | the only fun part is making sure to properly connect script worlds | 00:34 |
| alterego | czr, Self documenting :P | 00:34 |
| czr | alterego, you write it in COBOL? :-) | 00:35 |
| db48x | alterego: I like it | 00:35 |
| timeless | dbd48x: i think actually that script world connection is trivial | 00:35 |
| db48x | good choice of background image | 00:35 |
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| timeless | generally if a script opens a window, the new window is forced to share the existing script world | 00:35 |
| timeless | and if a user opens a window, it gets its own script world | 00:36 |
| db48x | yea | 00:36 |
| alterego | db48x, thanks | 00:36 |
| timeless | the fun connecting case | 00:36 |
| alterego | czr, yeah .. Cobol .. pfft :P | 00:36 |
| timeless | is if you do <a target=b href=c> | 00:36 |
| timeless | and b lands insdie a different script world | 00:36 |
| timeless | bz might suggest banning that case | 00:36 |
| timeless | and i'm fine w/ that :) | 00:36 |
| db48x | isn't it already banned? | 00:36 |
| czr | alterego, yeah, nice pic. too much contrast for regular desktop use, but since the device desktop is not regular, it's nice | 00:36 |
| timeless | it might be | 00:36 |
| timeless | i'mnot following everything | 00:36 |
| db48x | that is, different domains have different namespaces for the target property | 00:37 |
| timeless | anyway, the other case is divorces | 00:37 |
| timeless | db48x: same domain | 00:37 |
| timeless | load google.com in one window | 00:37 |
| timeless | open a new window | 00:37 |
| alterego | czr, yeah. Looks sweet on the device. When I've finished the whole theme. (Probably a week or so) I'll point you to a one click ;) | 00:37 |
| timeless | load google.com into it | 00:37 |
| db48x | oh, so the user opened two tabs to the same domain, and clicked the same link twice | 00:37 |
| timeless | they now have two window,s w/ two script worlds | 00:37 |
| czr | alterego, cool. I can take it for a sping then. chinook? | 00:37 |
| alterego | Yeah | 00:38 |
| timeless | something like that | 00:38 |
| timeless | so far the two script worlds are "not connected" | 00:38 |
| db48x | right | 00:38 |
| timeless | which is correct, they should not "block" eachother | 00:38 |
| alterego | czr, because of all the transparency ;) | 00:38 |
| timeless | but if you <a target> | 00:38 |
| timeless | then arguably they should "connect" | 00:38 |
| timeless | which basically means one script world (running thread) dies | 00:38 |
| czr | alterego, btw, why is your contacts above the browser icon? :-) | 00:39 |
| db48x | probably instead of 'banning' that case, we'd just add another check to make it pretend it didn't find an existing window with that name | 00:39 |
| timeless | it's an edge case, and a basic impl can simply ban it | 00:39 |
| timeless | anyway, the last bits are divorces | 00:39 |
| alterego | czr, having said that. These scripts might be nice for the OS2006/770 guys. As it can generate a theme (mix in their desktop image) to give the illusion of transparency. | 00:39 |
| timeless | user loads a new page in the top level frame | 00:39 |
| timeless | that divorces it | 00:39 |
| db48x | or just kills it off and creates a new one | 00:39 |
| alterego | czr, aesthetics. Circles are natural centre points ;) | 00:39 |
| timeless | the other case is if the user loads a *different* site into an iframe | 00:39 |
| timeless | db48x: steps: | 00:39 |
| timeless | 1. load google.com | 00:40 |
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| timeless | 2. click link that opens a new google.com window (script link) | 00:40 |
| timeless | that's 2 windows, 1 script-world | 00:40 |
| timeless | 3. click a bookmark in one of those windows | 00:40 |
| db48x | czr: that's configurable | 00:40 |
| timeless | - that needs to create anew script world for that window | 00:40 |
| alterego | czr, it's like .. ~~ People are looking at Earth, un-aware that there's a colourful Borg ship about to destroy it ~~ It's a story see :) | 00:40 |
| timeless | yeah, it's actually a trivial operation (new script-world, point to it) | 00:40 |
| czr | alterego, heh | 00:40 |
| timeless | top level loads should always replace the script world pointer | 00:41 |
| czr | db48x, where? | 00:41 |
| timeless | and if a script world reaches 0. goodbye :) | 00:41 |
| db48x | czr: in the control panel | 00:41 |
| alterego | czr, panels under control panel. | 00:41 |
| czr | ah. | 00:41 |
| db48x | timeless: yea | 00:41 |
| alterego | czr, if you look at the bottom of the dialog there's arrows to position them. | 00:41 |
| czr | maybe I should try poking around the device one of these days :-) | 00:41 |
| czr | I still don't use these things for anything :-) | 00:41 |
| timeless | db48x: anyway, that's pretty much it | 00:41 |
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| timeless | there's a minor requirement for dealing w/ temporary merges between <xul> and window.content | 00:41 |
| timeless | but practically speaking, that's not such a big deal | 00:42 |
| db48x | heh | 00:42 |
| timeless | if a xul window pokes window.content, then the content script-world is blocked until the xul script finishes | 00:42 |
| timeless | (deterministic for a single execution of script) | 00:42 |
| timeless | as soon as the script finishes running, the content script world is unblocked | 00:42 |
| timeless | note, that's fairly easy to do w/ jsapi | 00:43 |
| db48x | unless the xul script changes the content's dom | 00:43 |
| timeless | hrm | 00:43 |
| timeless | because the script in content might object? | 00:43 |
| * alterego wonders what a tablet OS would be like with XUL instead of Gtk+ .. | 00:43 | |
| db48x | yea, or nodes might turn up missing | 00:43 |
| * timeless ponders | 00:43 | |
| fysa | memory hungry ;) | 00:44 |
| timeless | well, you have two choices | 00:44 |
| timeless | either xul waits (bad) | 00:44 |
| db48x | like, the script got a reference to a node, and then the xul script removed it from the document | 00:44 |
| alterego | A lot easier to theme ;) | 00:44 |
| czr | timeless btw, you aware of any open source english language checking tools? stuff that would go beyond just crappy spellchecking. | 00:44 |
| timeless | or xul is allowed to look, but touching results in content being killed | 00:44 |
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| timeless | czr: #foxymonkies and #macintosh work fairly well | 00:44 |
| db48x | but I don't think we have any chrome that is invasive like that | 00:44 |
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| timeless | telnet irc.mozilla.ort 6697, speak enough irc to speak bad english | 00:45 |
| czr | timeless, err, something that could be used in an automated fashion :-) doesn't need to be perfect. | 00:45 |
| timeless | wait for correction :) | 00:45 |
| czr | heh | 00:45 |
| timeless | no | 00:45 |
| timeless | but i know enough channels where people will correct your english | 00:45 |
| timeless | (English) | 00:45 |
| * timeless normally spells English correctly | 00:45 | |
| geoffeg | So when I remove the charger from my N800 running OS2008 i get an alert that says "Disconnect charger from power supply to save energy." WHAT? | 00:45 |
| timeless | db48x: ok, let's handle xul | 00:45 |
| geoffeg | What the *$#@ does that mean? | 00:46 |
| timeless | dom objects are again proxies | 00:46 |
| timeless | first access results in an exception | 00:46 |
| timeless | (write) | 00:46 |
| db48x | geoffeg: the charger is still drawing power from the mains | 00:46 |
| halley | geoff, unplug the wart from the wall | 00:46 |
| timeless | second access results in the other running script being terminated | 00:46 |
| db48x | all chargers work that way | 00:46 |
| timeless | for the record, db48x is speaking en-GB | 00:46 |
| geoffeg | db48x: oh.. wow.. and they want me to save a little power.. nice | 00:46 |
| timeless | "mains" is not valid en-US | 00:46 |
| geoffeg | That should read "Save electricity: Unplug charger from power socket" | 00:47 |
| doc|work | oh yeah, I put my n800 in to charge last night at about 11pm, at 7.30am it was still showing as charging | 00:48 |
| db48x | I'd hesitate to start labelling bits of english as 'valid' or 'invalid' | 00:48 |
| halley | Okay, how does one add their own app launch icons onto the homepage/desktop? | 00:48 |
| db48x | geoffeg: yea, that would work better | 00:48 |
| timeless | db48x: EUNRECOGNIZED | 00:48 |
| db48x | timeless: heh | 00:48 |
| guerby | kewl bluetooth headset works with N800+OS2008 (both listening and recording) | 00:48 |
| guerby | one bugzilla down at last | 00:48 |
| guerby | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474 | 00:48 |
| geoffeg | guerby: including using skype? | 00:48 |
| doc|work | anyone had that? | 00:49 |
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| derf | I think the word you were looking for was "idiomatic". | 00:49 |
| guerby | geoffeg, I don't use skype but if maemo recorder works I assume everything will work | 00:49 |
| timeless | guerby: johan's responsible for that | 00:49 |
| timeless | he should get around to resolving it | 00:49 |
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| timeless | guerby: if he doesn't, send him an email and ask | 00:49 |
| guerby | timeless, is it for me? | 00:50 |
| timeless | (give him 2weeks past the official 2008-n800 release, unless you think he should resolve based on 2008-n810) | 00:50 |
| timeless | johan= https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474#c13 | 00:50 |
| timeless | although, i wonder | 00:51 |
| timeless | does it have HSP yet? | 00:51 |
| guerby | timeless, as I commented there everything works super great :) | 00:51 |
| timeless | if not, he might be keeping it open until it gets HSP | 00:51 |
| guerby | timeless, ah ok don't know what HSP is, anyway I can check? | 00:51 |
| timeless | certainly looks like bluez3.20 has some HSP | 00:51 |
| halley | Okay, how does one add their own app launch icons onto the homepage/desktop? | 00:52 |
| timeless | homepage? | 00:52 |
| guerby | timeless, when I disconnected the bluetooth headset with the N800 OS2008 icon, the headset made a phone hang up noise :) | 00:52 |
| timeless | guerby: http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/search?string=hsp&find=bluez | 00:52 |
| timeless | (be patient) | 00:52 |
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| guerby | timeless, I just checked and 'Device detail' says Supported Profile: HSP when my BT headset is paired | 00:54 |
| timeless | hrm | 00:55 |
| timeless | actually, You'll see HSP support | 00:55 |
| timeless | very soon and hopefully A2DP a little later | 00:55 |
| timeless | so maybe the right question is about A2DP | 00:55 |
| timeless | again, there's clearly /some/ | 00:56 |
| timeless | dunno how much | 00:56 |
| timeless | it's really up to johan | 00:56 |
| timeless | he is fairly responsive in bugzilla | 00:56 |
| guerby | timeless, may be A2DP indeed. Sound is not bad already | 00:56 |
| timeless | and knows what he's talking about | 00:56 |
| * timeless doesn't speak bluetooth | 00:56 | |
| * timeless gladly leaves that to johan | 00:56 | |
| guerby | :) | 00:57 |
| timeless | hrm | 00:57 |
| timeless | db48x: is chat in the spreadsheet temporary? | 00:57 |
| db48x | yea | 00:58 |
| db48x | I had to close out and reload it | 00:58 |
| db48x | and everything from before that point is gone | 00:59 |
| killfill | hey.. | 00:59 |
| killfill | ukmp is missing "libbz2-2-1.0" | 01:00 |
| killfill | where do i get this?.. :S | 01:00 |
| pumpkin | bzip2 | 01:00 |
| pumpkin | bzip3 ftw | 01:01 |
| killfill | ftw? | 01:01 |
| pumpkin | for the wallaby | 01:01 |
| pumpkin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bzip2 | 01:01 |
| killfill | hm.. but i mean for os2008.. | 01:02 |
| timeless | _monkey ftw is for the win | 01:02 |
| _Monkey | OK, timeless. | 01:02 |
| czr | pumpkin, bzip3? | 01:02 |
| pumpkin | almost as good as bzip4 | 01:02 |
| * czr de-seeds pumpkin with a large trout | 01:03 | |
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| czr | I actually thought that you were serious for a while there :-) | 01:03 |
| pumpkin | :) | 01:03 |
| kaltsi | killfill: it's in the sdk repo but that should not really be activated on the device.. | 01:03 |
| killfill | sdk.. hm... | 01:03 |
| pumpkin | btw, why exactly does it claim the world will explode if I install bash on my n800? | 01:03 |
| derf | Now that the arithmetic encoding patents have expired, you could do a lot better than bzip2. | 01:03 |
| kaltsi | it also means that konttori has been a bit lazy by not uploading that dependency to the extras repository :( | 01:04 |
| killfill | kaltsi: well i just tried to install ukmp.. :S | 01:04 |
| kaltsi | killfill: yes from the extras repository? repository.maemo.org/extras , the sdk is without the /extras.. not very clear :) | 01:04 |
| czr | derf, not that much better actually. | 01:04 |
| pumpkin | well closer to the fundamental limit :P | 01:05 |
| kaltsi | pumpkin: because bash will want to replace busybox and all the world depends on busybox | 01:05 |
| derf | czr: We know a lot more about the BWT now, too. | 01:05 |
| czr | using rzip is normally already much better than just plain gzip2 | 01:05 |
| pumpkin | kaltsi: can't they just coexist peacefully? it's just a shell, isn't it? | 01:05 |
| czr | derf, true. although I don't. I still remember the color pictures of BWT in dr dobbs when BWT was first published :-) | 01:05 |
| killfill | hm.. | 01:05 |
| kaltsi | pumpkin: in a perfect non-destructible world yes :) | 01:06 |
| killfill | i guess bzip should be on the main repo.. :P | 01:06 |
| * killfill adding the other repo by hand | 01:06 | |
| pumpkin | hmm | 01:06 |
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| pumpkin | so how does it blow the world up, kaltsi ? | 01:06 |
| pumpkin | I mean, doesn't it just add /bin/bash to the device? | 01:06 |
| kaltsi | first slowly and then quite fast.. dunno | 01:06 |
| pumpkin | or if the package has crazy requirements, can't they just be relaxed? | 01:06 |
| kaltsi | well it will remove everything like the hildon desktop and stuff before installing bash.. and then not reinstall the other stuff | 01:07 |
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| derf | Actually, I haven't really looked at plain text compression since 2002, 2003. | 01:07 |
| derf | I wonder what's been going on. | 01:07 |
| pumpkin | hmm | 01:07 |
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| pumpkin | but that seems like a package limitation, kaltsi | 01:07 |
| kaltsi | pumpkin: yes certainly.. it's solvable | 01:07 |
| pumpkin | not an inherent property of /bin/bash being present on your flash | 01:07 |
| pumpkin | ah ok | 01:07 |
| db48x | hooray for package dependancies | 01:08 |
| bill20r3 | bz2 is good, there's stuff that's slightly better, but nothing widely used. | 01:08 |
| *** r2d2rogers is now known as r2d2rogers|afk | 01:08 | |
| czr | bill20r3, rzip and lrzip | 01:08 |
| czr | and many others as well | 01:08 |
| czr | although lrzip has stability issues with large datasets ;-) | 01:08 |
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| czr | so you might not want to use it for everything | 01:08 |
| bill20r3 | yeah, I dont consider those "widely used" , but that's just me. | 01:09 |
| bill20r3 | how much better than bz2 are they? | 01:09 |
| timeless | doh | 01:09 |
| timeless | turns out i actually got an Nb translation! | 01:09 |
| kaltsi | what's Nb? | 01:09 |
| czr | depends on data set. lzrip basically gains from using huge windows and lzma over rzip. rzip gains from very large windows only (rsync-algo internally first, then bzip2) | 01:09 |
| timeless | we misspell it "no-NO" | 01:09 |
| timeless | because we're idiots | 01:09 |
| timeless | it's nb-NO | 01:10 |
| kaltsi | hmp | 01:10 |
| czr | bill20r3, http://koltsoff.com/pub/compressor-comparison.xhtml some comparison data from some months ago | 01:10 |
| bill20r3 | ahh. so like for multi-gig files? | 01:10 |
| czr | bill20r3, my priority was working with virtual machine images | 01:10 |
| czr | bill20r3, and finding something that wasn't too slow mainly | 01:10 |
| bill20r3 | ahh. | 01:10 |
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| bill20r3 | I looke around a little a few months ago. our mail server logs are like 6g/day. | 01:10 |
| czr | lrzip is not included since it had stability issues, but rzip and some others are | 01:10 |
| timeless | anyway, it turns out my machined translation of Nb was only off by one character | 01:11 |
| czr | probably for text files bzip2 is good enough, could be better though | 01:11 |
| czr | but for large binary sets rzip should win | 01:11 |
| db48x | oops, xml parsing error | 01:11 |
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| bill20r3 | wow, rzip is *way* tighter. | 01:11 |
| czr | bill20r3, ended up developing my own format for that project in the end. didn't find anything useful :-) | 01:12 |
| bill20r3 | at least on that dataset. | 01:12 |
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| czr | yes. the dataset is 100+ virtual machine images | 01:12 |
| czr | so some structure is inherent in it | 01:12 |
| pumpkin | how well does it compress /dev/random? :P | 01:12 |
| czr | text would be more difficult for rzip to optimize over, since the rsync algo isn't byte-precise | 01:12 |
| czr | pumpkin, 50%! | 01:12 |
| pumpkin | oh my! | 01:13 |
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| pumpkin | I need it to fit into one byte, unfortunately | 01:13 |
| kaltsi | use lossy compression | 01:13 |
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| db48x | heh | 01:13 |
| bill20r3 | do the 'virtual machine images' include large blocks of possibly-empty disk space? | 01:13 |
| pumpkin | ah, well, I'll wait for better compression to come along | 01:13 |
| db48x | dev/random compresses very well | 01:13 |
| db48x | all you need to record are the initial conditions | 01:14 |
| czr | bill20r3, not really, all images are sparse (do not include too much zero) | 01:14 |
| bill20r3 | pumpkin, you can only get that kind of compression ratio with write-only compression schemes. | 01:14 |
| derf | db48x: You must be thinking /dev/urandom | 01:14 |
| czr | bill20r3, there's some, but not much. | 01:14 |
| pumpkin | lol | 01:14 |
| db48x | derf: perhaps | 01:14 |
| bill20r3 | they're a touch on the lossy side. | 01:14 |
| bill20r3 | ok, I'm out. | 01:14 |
| derf | /dev/random is supposed to continually inject sources of actual entropy before it will give you more data. | 01:15 |
| czr | nah. initial conditions = position and energy of all particles in the universe at the moment that compressing starts | 01:15 |
| czr | so it's pretty trivial. takes a lot of space, but .. :-) | 01:15 |
| derf | czr: I'm just guessing here, but I think recording that would take a lot of space. | 01:15 |
| bill20r3 | that'd be read-only compression. | 01:15 |
| czr | derf, plus there'd be the issue of the state containing the result eventually as well.. | 01:15 |
| derf | That's not my definition of "compresses very well". | 01:15 |
| db48x | heh | 01:16 |
| * alterego starts crying at the wasted screen estate he finds. | 01:16 | |
| alterego | 10x720 pixels wasted! | 01:16 |
| sp3000 | oh, yeah, I should flash something, shouldn't I | 01:16 |
| alterego | That's a line of _very_ small text! | 01:16 |
| timeless | sp3000: hey, last call for alkohol | 01:17 |
| db48x | alterego: plus the two columns down either side | 01:17 |
| timeless | if you want any more changes to fi, now's your chance | 01:17 |
| timeless | finalizing... | 01:17 |
| czr | timeless, you still wasting time on that fi-blurb? :-) | 01:17 |
| timeless | i'm copying the blurbs into the files now | 01:17 |
| czr | ah. my mistake :-) | 01:17 |
| pupnik | if any of you have some money to invest in speakers, check these out | 01:18 |
| pupnik | http://www.vmpseurope.com/reviews.htm VMPS speaker reviews.... | 01:18 |
| czr | hmm. anyone know what's the shortest url to refer to a specific patch in sf.net? | 01:18 |
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| pupnik | i love them | 01:18 |
| pupnik | qurl? | 01:18 |
| czr | needs to be stable | 01:18 |
| * timeless rotfl | 01:20 | |
| timeless | this rocks. | 01:20 |
| sp3000 | czr: so do you prefer etenee hitaasti or kestää pitkään/kauan | 01:21 |
| czr | both preferred for obvious reasons, but depends on the woman in question normally. | 01:21 |
| * czr hides | 01:21 | |
| czr | sp3000, what's the full version you have now? | 01:21 |
| czr | etenee hitaasti is more optimistic | 01:21 |
| sp3000 | Tällä sivulla oleva komentojono on jumiutunut tai sen suoritus etenee hitaasti. Voit pysäyttää komentojonon valitsemalla OK tai jatkaa odottamista valitsemalla Peruuta. | 01:21 |
| czr | O | 01:22 |
| db48x | timeless: 'that's a "fine and understandable" translation' reports my cousin, in re the russian translation | 01:22 |
| czr | I'm fine with that | 01:22 |
| sp3000 | k | 01:22 |
| czr | kestaa pitkaan is some form of swedisism, I'm pretty sure. | 01:22 |
| sp3000 | timeless: I guess it's as fine as it'll gets. it's a bit different because I sure don't know how to express the line is taken and the script won't answer the phone thing ;) | 01:22 |
| timeless | http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr-podcasts/podcast/510019/6923215/npr_6923215.mp3 | 01:22 |
| sp3000 | so it's stuck or taking a long time to complete, instead | 01:23 |
| timeless | jump to around 30mins into that podcast | 01:23 |
| db48x | timeless: though the party of the third part isn't around any longer to comment further, as he has now gone to bed | 01:23 |
| sp3000 | which will fly or won't | 01:23 |
| timeless | every 90s or so into that stream you'll hear the announcer speaking | 01:23 |
| db48x | something about timezones and 'nighttime', not sure that was translated properly | 01:23 |
| timeless | because that was the best arrangement they could get w/ sony bmg | 01:23 |
| sp3000 | the other part is s/komentotiedosto/komentojono/ (command file vs command sequence, so to speak) | 01:24 |
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| timeless | db48x? | 01:24 |
| _Monkey | i think db48x is the one who can't edit his | 01:24 |
| db48x | I'm perfectly capable of editing my | 01:24 |
| db48x | timeless: my cousin doesn't trust her fluency, so she asked a friend who is russian | 01:25 |
| sp3000 | can I edit yours too? | 01:25 |
| kaltsi | the internet said you aren't.. now who are we going to believe? | 01:25 |
| halley | I think maemo.org is the slowest domain on the planet. | 01:25 |
| db48x | halley: from all the way out there, they're probably all pretty slow | 01:25 |
| db48x | sp3000: sure! :) | 01:25 |
| timeless | db48x: i'm losing stuff in this scrollback, stick things into the chat view? | 01:25 |
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| sp3000 | hmm, rhythmbox thinks backup.metadata on the N800 is a playlist | 01:26 |
| * alterego yawns. | 01:26 | |
| timeless | sp3000: yum | 01:26 |
| timeless | ~sounds~ nice | 01:26 |
| czr | sp3000, it's an advanced media player | 01:26 |
| czr | hah timeless | 01:26 |
| sp3000 | sounds empty :) | 01:26 |
| czr | in the void of N800, will anyone hear if rhythmbox plays a metadata file? | 01:26 |
| halley | You can't swing a dead n770 without hitting three "media player apps." | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | What is this "n770" you speak of? :P | 01:27 |
| czr | short for "not N770" | 01:27 |
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| halley | GeneralAntilles, you know anything about maemocjk.garage? And hildon's plans for japanese input? | 01:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, why would I? :) | 01:29 |
| alterego | I can really screw around with the themes .. | 01:29 |
| halley | Dunno, you seemed to know everything else last night. | 01:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm limited to English and just a touch of Spanish. :) | 01:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 01:29 |
| alterego | I can make my theme resizable me thinks .. | 01:29 |
| alterego | Maybe also take up less room. | 01:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, thanks, but that knowledge doesn't extend to foreign languages and whatnot. Sorry. :) | 01:29 |
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| czr | alterego, push it out of the window to leave more room in the room? ;-) | 01:30 |
| alterego | :) | 01:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | It can join my bluetooth keyboard! | 01:31 |
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| czr | GeneralAntilles, small bt generals will result of that? | 01:31 |
| alterego | I'm thinking make the application title bar smaller. | 01:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sounds like a plan. | 01:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maybe put together a number of options for it, too? | 01:32 |
| alterego | Actually I'm just going to trim out the useless 10x720px in my theme for now. | 01:33 |
| alterego | Don't want to go _over_ board .. | 01:33 |
| halley | alterego, is there a howto for making themes? or just hack one open and replace/edit? | 01:33 |
| alterego | That's insane .. It actually worked ^_^ | 01:33 |
| alterego | halley, I'm hacking one open and editing it. Quite drastically in fact. I'm also righting various scripts to help create themes so if you wait a week or two you might be able to use what I'm working on now :) | 01:34 |
| alterego | s/righting/writing/ | 01:34 |
| infobot | alterego meant: halley, I'm hacking one open and editing it. Quite drastically in fact. I'm also writing various scripts to help create themes so if you wait a week or two you might be able to use what I'm working on now :) | 01:34 |
| alterego | fucking infobot .. | 01:35 |
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| czr | yeah, that is irritating | 01:35 |
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| alterego | What would be useful is some kind of WYSIWYG editor for this stuff. Or a plugin for the GIMP that auto-generates a screenshot like my script does. So you can keep track of what it'll look like through the preview. | 01:38 |
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| timeless | dear world, the fruits of your labor can be found at: | 01:40 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/browser/mozilla/trunk/microb-l10n/l10n2/fi/locale/fi/global/dom/dom.properties#38 | 01:40 |
| czr | yay. finally got the patch into ubuntu. bleh for reportbug not supporting broken MTAs ;-) | 01:42 |
| alterego | Some of these numbers are botched. | 01:42 |
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| alterego | That explains this odd 12x50 pixel area that has no use but to look ugly. | 01:42 |
| lopz | hola | 01:42 |
| czr | hmm. submitting a one line patch shouldn't take 1,5 hours. | 01:45 |
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| * czr blames alterego for the distractions | 01:45 | |
| timeless | ok... anyone want to play a fun game? | 01:45 |
| doc|work | once again, no, now put your pants back on. | 01:46 |
| pupnik | is it ... | 01:46 |
| timeless | sp3000: do you remember where the home page lives? | 01:46 |
| alterego | Hahah | 01:46 |
| czr | heh | 01:47 |
| czr | reminds me of one xkcd, let me dig for it | 01:47 |
| timeless | doh | 01:47 |
| timeless | it's in a private file | 01:47 |
| alterego | Oh, that's pretty. I've now shaved off 10x720 pixel area and everything looks perfect. | 01:47 |
| timeless | ok, so... anyone want to play a fun game? | 01:47 |
| alterego | I wonder what it was there for. | 01:47 |
| timeless | it requires tablet-browser-ui | 01:47 |
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| alterego | Actually, I know what it was there but it's not required in my theme me thinks. | 01:48 |
| * timeless ponders | 01:48 | |
| czr | http://xkcd.com/330/ | 01:48 |
| timeless | actually | 01:48 |
| timeless | is the only thing that changes on the google page the logo? | 01:48 |
| db48x | timeless: what game is that? | 01:50 |
| timeless | db48x: figuring out what changes are necessary to make the home page look "localized" | 01:51 |
| timeless | i've thought about it a bit | 01:51 |
| db48x | heh | 01:51 |
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| timeless | and i think the answer is that it's *just* the powered by logo | 01:51 |
| timeless | and the cool thing is, i got that translated a few weeks ago | 01:51 |
| doc|work | czr: heh | 01:51 |
| db48x | with all those layers between main() and gecko? | 01:51 |
| timeless | the uncool part is that i don't think anyone converted them from psd to png(?) | 01:52 |
| timeless | and i don't know how to magically use "the right file" | 01:52 |
| db48x | oh, you mean just by swapping out the logo on the startup page | 01:52 |
| timeless | yeah | 01:52 |
| db48x | rather than changing which page gets loaded | 01:52 |
| shacka1 | why once I installed a program under a menu section, it keeps reinstalling under that section without asking me anymore ? | 01:52 |
| timeless | db48x: i could do either | 01:52 |
| db48x | does it load a chrome url or something? | 01:52 |
| timeless | it's more evil than that | 01:53 |
| db48x | if so you can put the images into the locales and reference it by their chrome url | 01:53 |
| timeless | it loads a file path and lies | 01:53 |
| db48x | make gecko do the real work | 01:53 |
| timeless | hrm | 01:53 |
| timeless | wait | 01:53 |
| timeless | you're right | 01:53 |
| timeless | we do theoretically have chrome support | 01:53 |
| timeless | but.. i don't know what "app" we have | 01:54 |
| db48x | what do you mean? | 01:54 |
| * czr reminds himself _never_ again to press ctrl+enter when multiple emails are selected simultanously in thunderbird | 01:54 | |
| db48x | czr: heh, yea | 01:54 |
| czr | multiple times too | 01:54 |
| czr | "duh" | 01:54 |
| * db48x laughs | 01:54 | |
| timeless | db48x: ok, you're right | 01:56 |
| timeless | this is trivial | 01:56 |
| timeless | if i had root anyway | 01:56 |
| * timeless cries | 01:56 | |
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| db48x | cool | 01:56 |
| db48x | heh | 01:56 |
| timeless | db48x, can you try this? | 01:56 |
| timeless | take a random picture | 01:56 |
| timeless | stick it in | 01:57 |
| db48x | yea, I suppose | 01:57 |
| * db48x hunts for a stylus | 01:57 | |
| doc|work | would the n800 hardware allow for the charging icon to show a charge level? | 01:57 |
| timeless | /usr/lib/microb-engine/chrome/en-US/locale/branding/ | 01:57 |
| timeless | load chrome://branding/locale/foo.png | 01:57 |
| timeless | it shoudl load | 01:57 |
| alterego | Yeah .. These numbers don't add up .. | 01:57 |
| halley | Is there an apt or dpkg command that will print all the dependencies for a given dpkg? | 01:57 |
| alterego | dpkg? | 01:58 |
| inz | halley, do you mean an installed package, a package in repo or a local file? | 01:58 |
| timeless | apt-cache show ? | 01:59 |
| timeless | oh for a .deb | 01:59 |
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| inz | apt-cache show should work for packages in repos and those installed | 01:59 |
| timeless | dpkg -f | 01:59 |
| alterego | So .. Matchbox is the reason I don't have transparency in my application title bar O_O | 01:59 |
| timeless | dpkg -f | --field filename [control-field] ... | 01:59 |
| timeless | Display control field(s) of a package. | 01:59 |
| timeless | dpkg -f depends foop.deb | 02:00 |
| czr | s/fo/po/ | 02:00 |
| inz | timeless, read again, it's dpkg -f foop.deb Depends | 02:00 |
| killfill | jees. so many users does maemo have?.. the bandwith is still low.. :S | 02:01 |
| timeless | inz: yeah, i was just getting there | 02:01 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ dpkg -f apt/apt-doc_0.6.43.3nexenta3_all.deb Depends|wc -l | 02:01 |
| timeless | 0 | 02:01 |
| timeless | docs don't seem to have depends | 02:01 |
| inz | surprise? | 02:01 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ dpkg -f apt/apt-utils_0.6.43.3nexenta3_solaris-i386.deb Depends | 02:01 |
| timeless | libapt-pkg--3.11, libdb4.3 (>= 4.3.28-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-4), sunwcslr, sunwlibm | 02:02 |
| db48x | wtf | 02:02 |
| * alterego contemplates removing the close minimize buttons and making the statusbar bigger. | 02:02 | |
| fysa | alterego: while you're at it, can you put the taskbar icons closer together so we can fit one more in there? and make the a vkb like the stylus vkb but with slightly larger buttons, so we can thumbkey and see what we're doing? :) | 02:02 |
| db48x | cp: cannot remove '/usr/lib/microb-engine/chrome/en-US/locale/branding/Screenshot-129.png': No such file or directory | 02:02 |
| timeless | inz: while you're being helpful | 02:02 |
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| fysa | ;) | 02:02 |
| timeless | where is the browser's homepage on the device? :) | 02:02 |
| alterego | You know .. I'm going to remove the close minimize buttons. | 02:02 |
| alterego | They're kind of useless. | 02:03 |
| timeless | or does db48x need to use find/strace? :) | 02:03 |
| shacka1 | does the os2008 player do video over upnp ? | 02:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes, shacka1. | 02:03 |
| alterego | I only use minimize when I expect to go home. Which never works so I just hold the home key now. | 02:03 |
| inz | timeless, /usr/share/browser/home_page/index.html sounds right | 02:03 |
| shacka1 | GeneralAntilles: thanks | 02:03 |
| alterego | Maybe I'll keep the close button .. | 02:03 |
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| timeless | ah /usr/share/browser/home_page | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Close is probably useful. | 02:04 |
| shacka1 | GeneralAntilles: maybe I have to configure gmediaserver then, because it doesn't see it | 02:04 |
| fysa | can you change the functionality of the buttons, alter? | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | I find myself using them both fairly often | 02:04 |
| fysa | or just remove? | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | but I could change my habits if it meant more toolbar room. | 02:04 |
| fysa | i.e., one button with tap to minimize, double-tab to close? | 02:04 |
| timeless | db48x: ok, and try changing that file when you're done :) | 02:04 |
| fysa | (or hold to close) | 02:04 |
| db48x | also, why in the world doesn't copy work in the xterm | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Because xterm is crappy and broken. :P | 02:05 |
| alterego | fysa, to a certain extent they are standard matchbox functions me thinks .. | 02:05 |
| timeless | anyone here have photoshop? | 02:05 |
| halley | timeless, not a .deb I have, but a package I *want*; I want to see the dependencies before I actually install. | 02:05 |
| db48x | ok, it worked as root | 02:05 |
| db48x | it was just a weird error message | 02:05 |
| timeless | halley: apt-cache depends foopy | 02:05 |
| * alterego laughs at everyone with they're small application areas :P | 02:06 | |
| timeless | s/they're/their/ | 02:06 |
| * GeneralAntilles laughs at alterego's bad grammar. :P | 02:06 | |
| fysa | screenshot | 02:06 |
| fysa | ? | 02:06 |
| halley | timeless, thanks; and kick that timelyx guy outta here, he's screwing up my nick completes ;) | 02:06 |
| alterego | GeneralAntilles, it's late .. | 02:06 |
| alterego | That's the second time in two days I've used "they're" instead of "there" though .. | 02:07 |
| timeless | halley: that's me | 02:07 |
| timeless | i respond to both | 02:07 |
| halley | IRC is rotting your brain. | 02:07 |
| alterego | I'll post another screen shot when I've finished my buttons. | 02:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Take the easy way out, and blame it on muscle memory. | 02:07 |
| halley | timeless, I guessed as much. | 02:07 |
| db48x | timeless: it either can't load the chrome url, or the image I randomly picked is too large | 02:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, bit of a weird bug with a new browser window on default homescreen. The search box is selected and the I-beam is flashing, but (without doing anything else first) a press on the center d-pad loads google.com rather than bringing up the thumbboard. | 02:08 |
| timeless | heh | 02:08 |
| timeless | no | 02:09 |
| timeless | it's not loading google.com | 02:09 |
| timeless | it's submitting your empty form | 02:09 |
| timeless | and that's *someone's* stupid idea of a feature | 02:09 |
| fysa | mplayer is considerably smoother when I run from shell instead of gmplayer. | 02:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Awesome | 02:09 |
| timeless | the middle button has a number of conflicting behaviors | 02:09 |
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| timeless | one of them is <enter> | 02:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's rather irritating. | 02:09 |
| timeless | and <enter> in an <input> = submit | 02:09 |
| db48x | timeless: looks like chrome urls simply never load | 02:10 |
| timeless | db48x: you sure? | 02:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Especially as the input is selected and flashing. | 02:10 |
| db48x | the progress meter just spins | 02:10 |
| timeless | chrome://branding/locale/brand.dtd wfm | 02:10 |
| db48x | hmm | 02:10 |
| timeless | (not a very useful page, but....) | 02:10 |
| timeless | actually, it lies a number of times | 02:11 |
| db48x | ah, heh | 02:11 |
| timeless | claiming it's size 0, or latin | 02:11 |
| timeless | but it's >0, not text/html, and utf8 | 02:11 |
| db48x | I was trying to open chrome://locale/branding/… | 02:11 |
| timeless | ah yes, you're rustier than i am :) | 02:11 |
| fysa | man no kidding | 02:12 |
| timeless | and i haven't done this stuff in longer than the last time you did it | 02:12 |
| db48x | or just more tired | 02:12 |
| timeless | doubtful l-b | 02:12 |
| db48x | since the last time I did it was like last week :P | 02:12 |
| sp3000 | hrmpf. my charger lead is being flaky | 02:12 |
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| fysa | the -benchmark argument is hardcoded into gmplauncher | 02:12 |
| timeless | heh | 02:12 |
| timeless | sp3000: don't suppose you have photoshop? | 02:12 |
| sp3000 | gimp does psh unless it's fancy | 02:12 |
| sp3000 | psd even | 02:12 |
| timeless | if i sent you a psd, could you merge the psd over the stupid gray background of the microb start page? | 02:13 |
| timeless | (merge=delete current stuff and replace w/ each locale) | 02:14 |
| sp3000 | mossibly | 02:14 |
| sp3000 | possibly even | 02:14 |
| halley | gimp does photoshop5.5 psd, but no "effects" layers | 02:14 |
| timeless | sent to gmail | 02:14 |
| timeless | i presume you have the microb start page :) | 02:15 |
| timeless | if not, i can send you the image (but you can get it from anyone else here...) | 02:15 |
| halley | If you're trying to be OSS, you should offer .xcf file templates, or PNG layers. | 02:15 |
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| timeless | halley: it's a scaled thing | 02:15 |
| timeless | so png layers is definitely wrong | 02:15 |
| timeless | as for xcf, i don't know or care | 02:15 |
| halley | Then .svg | 02:15 |
| timeless | just because i'm stupid enough to redo a theme mockup doesn't mean i want to be a graphic designer | 02:16 |
| timeless | similarly for just because i can pick apart someone else's artwork/theme/layout... | 02:16 |
| *** Masca has quit IRC | 02:16 | |
| *** pdz has quit IRC | 02:16 | |
| czr | you can always become localizer instead of a graphica designer! | 02:16 |
| * czr hides & shuffles the universe in order to increase the chances of being hidden | 02:17 | |
| czr | staying even | 02:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Why does the browser insist on bitching about "No homepage defined" when homepage is set to about:blank? :\ | 02:17 |
| timeless | ui specification? :) | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Doesn't make any sense. | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | A homepage IS defined, as the homepage field isn't empty. | 02:19 |
| timeless | it's a ui specification! | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | :( | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | UI specifications should all die. | 02:19 |
| timeless | (they're not supposed to make sense. | 02:19 |
| timeless | and they never do) | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | As Nokia doesn't seem to know how to make them correctly. | 02:20 |
| timeless | yes well... | 02:20 |
| timeless | having worked here over a year, i'd have to agree | 02:20 |
| timeless | before coming here, there was this rule i had heard which i believed | 02:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Apple doesn't seem to have any trouble with UI specs (except, perhaps, following them). | 02:20 |
| timeless | it was something like "never let an engineer design a ui" | 02:21 |
| killfill | hey, ive just start openssh server. but cannot login. is root pass still "rootme"? | 02:21 |
| timeless | killfill: did you enable r&d mode? | 02:21 |
| db48x | timeless: yea, that works just fine | 02:21 |
| timeless | generalantilles :) | 02:21 |
| killfill | never did before.. is it necesarry? | 02:21 |
| timeless | for 2008, apparently | 02:21 |
| timeless | it's clearly a "Feature" | 02:21 |
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| db48x | what's the easiest way to take a screenshot in os2008? | 02:21 |
| killfill | what does r and b stand for?.. so i can google them | 02:21 |
| db48x | there is no 'import', for some reason | 02:22 |
| timeless | /usr/bin/screenshottool | 02:22 |
| timeless | or something | 02:22 |
| killfill | db48x: with the load applet :P | 02:22 |
| timeless | screenshottool is in chinook repo | 02:22 |
| db48x | killfill: where is that? | 02:22 |
| sp3000 | killfill: r&b mode? | 02:22 |
| halley | "rhythm and blues" | 02:22 |
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| halley | I think you mean "r&d mode" | 02:22 |
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| killfill | heh.. | 02:22 |
| killfill | ah.. yes r&d.. :) | 02:23 |
| killfill | db48x, in the repo.. | 02:23 |
| killfill | maemo.org | 02:23 |
| halley | As in hacking- "research & development" | 02:23 |
| killfill | aah | 02:23 |
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| alterego | Theming stage 1 completedz | 02:25 |
| hub | is there a way to download the N800 firmware efficiently like with wget? | 02:25 |
| hub | I can't successfully do it with firefox | 02:25 |
| hub | and it does not support resume | 02:25 |
| killfill | http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ApplicationManagerRedPillMode? | 02:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Screenies, alterego? | 02:26 |
| killfill | i still cannot login from ssh.. :S | 02:26 |
| fysa | GeneralAntilles: did you find /usr/share/browser/home_page/index.html? | 02:26 |
| czr | hub, there were some torrents flying around ;-) | 02:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Was I looking? | 02:26 |
| czr | hub, you might check the irclogs for this channel | 02:26 |
| alterego | GeneralAntilles, yeah. Uploading now. | 02:27 |
| hub | czr: I'd rather avoid torrents | 02:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then you're stuck with direct, hub. :) | 02:27 |
| hub | czr: unless the images are signed | 02:27 |
| czr | hub, then no | 02:27 |
| killfill | jees.. postgres.. :P | 02:27 |
| killfill | never took the red pil before.. :P | 02:27 |
| fysa | md5 it.. | 02:27 |
| czr | hub, unless you can somehow convince someone else to provide you the image | 02:27 |
| timeless | db48x: have you not sent my commercial self any mail? | 02:27 |
| fysa | I grabbed the image from thepiratebay, worked fine. | 02:27 |
| db48x | timeless: probably not | 02:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, mine is from tpb, too. | 02:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Works fine. | 02:28 |
| fysa | after downloading at 0.4KB/s all night and having it quit halfway through. | 02:28 |
| killfill | cannot get in.. :S | 02:28 |
| doc|work | so, anyone else noticed that charging isn't "completing"? | 02:28 |
| fysa | completes for me -- I get "charging complete. unplug charger to save energy" | 02:28 |
| doc|work | hmmm | 02:28 |
| killfill | damed | 02:28 |
| alterego | GeneralAntilles, http://maemo.rubyx.co.uk/tablet_home_200711280029.png | 02:28 |
| hub | fysa: md5 is like a crc | 02:28 |
| doc|work | will try it again tonight | 02:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Looking tasty | 02:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd soften up the gradient on the toolbar though. | 02:29 |
| timeless | alterego: nice | 02:29 |
| fysa | I know what MD5 is.. :P | 02:29 |
| fysa | there's sfv also.. | 02:29 |
| fysa | if you don't trust md5. | 02:29 |
| timeless | alterego: can you reverse the clock? | 02:29 |
| timeless | make the black transparent and the blue black | 02:30 |
| killfill | timeless: is R6d mode the same as taking the red pil? | 02:30 |
| alterego | timeless, ? | 02:30 |
| _Monkey | timeless, is there a way for the user to choose between rdf and atom feeds? | 02:30 |
| halley | killfill, no | 02:30 |
| timeless | killfill: no | 02:30 |
| timeless | _monkey forget me | 02:30 |
| _Monkey | timeless: I forgot me | 02:30 |
| alterego | timeless, make your own theme :P | 02:30 |
| timeless | _monkey forget me | 02:30 |
| _Monkey | timeless, I didn't have anything matching me | 02:30 |
| killfill | oh.. | 02:30 |
| timeless | _monkey forget timeless | 02:30 |
| _Monkey | timeless: I forgot timeless | 02:30 |
| timeless | _monkey, _monkey? | 02:31 |
| _Monkey | i think i am an annoying bot | 02:31 |
| timeless | yes | 02:31 |
| alterego | timeless, do it in priv msg next time :P | 02:31 |
| timeless | _monkey i am the microb architect | 02:31 |
| _Monkey | OK, timeless. | 02:31 |
| killfill | cannot find info about this... | 02:31 |
| hub | fysa: I what is sfv? | 02:31 |
| killfill | how do i enter r&d?.. | 02:31 |
| hub | fysa: I was more thinking real signing like GPG | 02:31 |
| timeless | altergego; aww :( | 02:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | alterego, make the gradient on the sidebar more gradual. | 02:32 |
| killfill | /usr/sbin/chroot /mnt/initfs cal-tool --get-rd-mode | 02:33 |
| killfill | is it this?... | 02:33 |
| halley | Make that slope more slopey. | 02:33 |
| *** zerojayN800 has left #maemo | 02:33 | |
| killfill | :( | 02:33 |
| timeless | can cal-tool be run as a mortal? | 02:34 |
| timeless | that seems scary | 02:34 |
| alterego | You should save it onto your tablet and view it full screen to see what I see :P | 02:35 |
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| timeless | no | 02:35 |
| czr | hub, md5 is not like crc btw. | 02:35 |
| timeless | cal-tool --get-rd-mode *reports* whether rd-mode is enabled | 02:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Howdy, zerojayN800. | 02:35 |
| czr | used for similar purposes, but not like crc at all | 02:36 |
| zerojayN800 | hey | 02:36 |
| hub | czr: just mildly more secure | 02:36 |
| hub | czr: and still a checksum | 02:36 |
| sp3000 | timeless: yeah I don't know what the latest rev of the gb would be | 02:36 |
| czr | it's not a checksum | 02:36 |
| sp3000 | bg even | 02:36 |
| czr | it has no "sum". | 02:36 |
| timeless | sp3000: bg? | 02:36 |
| hub | czr: it is call md5sum | 02:37 |
| hub | called | 02:37 |
| czr | hub, the program is yes. | 02:37 |
| halley | checksums are often used as digests; hashes are often used as digests; but hashes are not checksums. | 02:37 |
| timeless | sp3000: confused | 02:37 |
| sp3000 | timeless: "the stupid gray background" :) | 02:37 |
| timeless | sp3000: the one you have in 2008 week 42/44 is official afaik | 02:37 |
| timeless | do you not have that? | 02:37 |
| * timeless wants to go home | 02:38 | |
| sp3000 | I think I want to charge for a bit before flashing :) | 02:38 |
| czr | timeless, you're not at home? bad.. | 02:38 |
| timeless | no kidding | 02:38 |
| alterego | I should sleep. | 02:38 |
| timeless | someone get sp3000 the picture | 02:38 |
| timeless | so i can go home | 02:38 |
| timeless | genralantilles: not true | 02:38 |
| timeless | (2405) | 02:39 |
| timeless | if you're logged in, you get a very different page :) | 02:39 |
| timeless | and as it happens, if you aren't, you get one that has more js than the default one | 02:39 |
| * sp3000 thinks on how to position the things in bulk ...something to do with html and css and taking a screenshot ... :D | 02:39 | |
| killfill | timeless: how do i enable my ssh?... :P | 02:39 |
| * timeless chuckles | 02:39 | |
| timeless | killfill: you buying me dinner? | 02:39 |
| timeless | hrm | 02:40 |
| timeless | postinst runs as root, right? | 02:40 |
| killfill | well i already have.. but maybe tomorrow.. :P | 02:40 |
| czr | or fakeroot, but yes timeless | 02:40 |
| * timeless geos hunting for an empty deb | 02:40 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Bleh | 02:40 |
| * GeneralAntilles should test better. | 02:40 | |
| czr | of course in SDK it's possible to run dpkg without fakeroot and as long as package doesn't actually attempt to do chown, everything will seem ok (or require "root" for anything) | 02:41 |
| timeless | Architecture: all or any? :) | 02:42 |
| czr | timeless, any in source, all in package file. | 02:43 |
| czr | methinks | 02:43 |
| czr | let me check | 02:43 |
| timeless | in control? | 02:43 |
| czr | any at least in my package | 02:43 |
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| czr | will be replaced by the proper arch on dpkg-buildpackage | 02:43 |
| czr | all I think means that the package has no arch-specific parts at all | 02:44 |
| timeless | hrm | 02:44 |
| czr | check the source for maemo-repository | 02:44 |
| timeless | does ssh root@localhost work w/ r&d mode disabled if ther'es an ssh key? | 02:44 |
| czr | it is arch-neutral package | 02:44 |
| timeless | ? | 02:45 |
| czr | so people say. haven't tried. you want me to verify? | 02:45 |
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| sp3000 | I think someone said it did | 02:45 |
| timeless | please | 02:45 |
| halley | timeless, why not ssh in as user and su up? | 02:45 |
| czr | trivial to test, let's see what will happen | 02:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't think it worked for me when I tried, but I was doing any detailed testing. | 02:46 |
| timeless | halley: user has no password | 02:46 |
| timeless | and su kinda doesn't work until you enable a suer | 02:46 |
| halley | Right... | 02:46 |
| halley | passwd user ; echo>>sudoers ; passwd -l root | 02:47 |
| halley | Same scheme as ubuntu, macosx, ... | 02:47 |
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| sp3000 | two bars, that oughta do | 02:48 |
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| czr | is there a more recent image for N810 than 32-18? | 02:49 |
| czr | 42-18 even | 02:49 |
| timeless | ok, i need a priority | 02:49 |
| timeless | 42-19 | 02:50 |
| timeless | it's *only* a kernel change | 02:50 |
| timeless | so find someone you trust who has it | 02:50 |
| timeless | and ask them to send you just the kernel piece :) | 02:50 |
| timeless | otherwise you're wasting 100+mb of bandwidth | 02:50 |
| timeless | oh wait. that's probably me | 02:50 |
| czr | heh | 02:50 |
| halley | I pulled the N810 42-19 last night. | 02:51 |
| czr | you assume I trust you! :-) | 02:51 |
| czr | timeless, works | 02:51 |
| czr | root login, with keys, with r&d disabled. | 02:51 |
| czr | sorry verf took so long, had to reboot the device several times. I don't use flasher that often :-) | 02:51 |
| killfill | czr: how does one enable r&b?... | 02:52 |
| czr | by getting a drum and a guitar | 02:52 |
| czr | and possible some personal issues to sing about | 02:52 |
| halley | Or a sax. | 02:52 |
| czr | or you mean r&d? | 02:52 |
| timeless | try loading http://timeless.justdave.net/capture-root-0.1.deb | 02:52 |
| czr | killfill, r&d with flasher. | 02:52 |
| timeless | not sure what it'll do | 02:53 |
| killfill | well i have personal issues.. not the instruments tho.. :P | 02:53 |
| timeless | you're encouraged to dpkg-deb it :) | 02:53 |
| czr | timeless, heh. and you want us to try it? :-) | 02:53 |
| timeless | czr: read first :) | 02:53 |
| killfill | what flasher?.. its something you do before flashing the device? | 02:53 |
| czr | killfill, it's the program that is used to flash the device. the same program is used to enable/disable r&d. | 02:53 |
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| czr | killfill, I'm assuming you're using linux to flash the device here. | 02:54 |
| czr | I've never used the windows program. | 02:54 |
| timeless | windows doesn't let you twiddle flags | 02:54 |
| killfill | oh. yah.. i ment "what?.. flasher?"... :) | 02:54 |
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| killfill | well, its really necesary to do all this to enable the ssh server?... | 02:54 |
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| timeless | killfill: i think "not" | 02:54 |
| timeless | you could try this: | 02:54 |
| czr | timeless, your clock is wrong ;-) | 02:54 |
| killfill | actually got freebsd here.. flash doesnt work.. ill have to wait to work tomorrow | 02:54 |
| timeless | 1. install ssh | 02:54 |
| timeless | 2. ssh-keygen | 02:54 |
| czr | or maybe mine is. hmm | 02:54 |
| timeless | 3. try installing the deb i url'd a moment ago | 02:54 |
| timeless | if it works, then, um, "you're done" | 02:55 |
| timeless | oh,... 2 needs another step | 02:55 |
| timeless | after you ssh-keygen | 02:55 |
| czr | timeless, your clock is off by ~2000 seconds | 02:55 |
| timeless | you need to cat ~/.ssh/*.pub >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys | 02:55 |
| timeless | czr: which "your"? | 02:55 |
| czr | timeless, on whichever host you built that package | 02:56 |
| timeless | swift-nexenta(deb builder), swift(workstation), or sanjay(webserver) | 02:56 |
| timeless | how in the world can you tell? | 02:56 |
| czr | dpkg -x capture-root-0.1.deb . | 02:56 |
| czr | tar: .: time stamp 2007-11-28 03:33:39 is 2267 s in the future | 02:56 |
| |tbb| | has some1 succesfully paired a bt headset which working properly with the new os8, the ony thing i get to work is pairing it and change the volume by the headphone | 02:56 |
| czr | timeless, "magic" ;-) | 02:56 |
| halley | Making an id.pub on a pocket device is useless; never let a heavy machine trust an easily-stealable machine. | 02:56 |
| *** deejoe is now known as locutus_of_borg | 02:56 | |
| timeless | nice | 02:56 |
| *** locutus_of_borg is now known as deejoe | 02:57 | |
| GeneralAntilles | |tbb|, mine answered and communicated with a SIP call just fine. | 02:57 |
| K`zan | To those folks who cranked out Apps for 2007, those that are porting them to 2008 as well as those that put together the Development stuff: THANK YOU! | 02:57 |
| timeless | czr: well, that problem will go away RSN :) | 02:57 |
| czr | halley, maybe you confused what the .pub is | 02:57 |
| czr | .pub doesn't mean that anyone will trust the pocket device | 02:57 |
| |tbb| | GeneralAntilles: have u modified anything on the bluetooth conf | 02:57 |
| killfill | still dont get why did ssh behaviour change from os2007.. :P | 02:57 |
| timeless | killfill: nor do i | 02:58 |
| czr | halley, and we're mostly developers here. we're interested in using ssh to login into the devices from our regular desktops. not the other way around. | 02:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, |tbb|. | 02:58 |
| czr | timeless, not RSNE :-) | 02:58 |
| K`zan | I'm about convinced that BT headsets only work with cell phones... | 02:58 |
| |tbb| | could u use it with skype | 02:58 |
| timeless | wait, 2267s? | 02:58 |
| czr | timeless, for the root . | 02:58 |
| timeless | so 37 mins? | 02:58 |
| czr | timeless, there are other timestamps that are off | 02:58 |
| czr | timeless, the control one seems to be the furthest away (2663) | 02:59 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ date | 02:59 |
| timeless | Tue Nov 27 17:50:50 PST 2007 | 02:59 |
| timeless | control was the file last changed | 02:59 |
| czr | !exec date | 02:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Don't use Skype, so I couldn't say. | 02:59 |
| timeless | -rw-r--r-- 1 timeless webservd 377 Nov 27 17:42 control | 02:59 |
| czr | bleh :-) | 02:59 |
| timeless | timeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date | 02:59 |
| timeless | Wed Nov 28 03:51:13 EET 2007 | 02:59 |
| |tbb| | could u use it with kagu (a2dp) | 02:59 |
| czr | timeless, well, I'm pretty certain that this host has proper time. so don't blame me :-) | 03:00 |
| * timeless ponders | 03:00 | |
| timeless | confused | 03:00 |
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| czr | maybe it's a timezone thing? that'd be weird though. | 03:00 |
| killfill | timeless: cannot install your deb. :( it says "app incompatible" | 03:00 |
| timeless | killfill: incompatible? | 03:00 |
| timeless | wonky | 03:00 |
| timeless | note: i'm not a debian guy | 03:00 |
| timeless | i'm an evil hacker | 03:00 |
| timeless | give me a few bits of talking w/ czr | 03:00 |
| czr | timeless, you know by now that your package description makes absolutely no sense? :-) | 03:00 |
| timeless | czr: why does it say it's incompatible? | 03:01 |
| czr | it's in section admon | 03:01 |
| czr | admin even | 03:01 |
| czr | section should be prefixed by user/ | 03:01 |
| timeless | oh, should be user/admin | 03:01 |
| timeless | right | 03:01 |
| czr | in order for the Am to accept it without redpill mode | 03:01 |
| czr | 'This package copies your /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys file to /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys.' | 03:02 |
| * czr chuckles | 03:02 | |
| timeless | killfill: reload | 03:02 |
| timeless | czr: "oops" :) | 03:02 |
| timeless | it's late! | 03:02 |
| czr | no. It's funny :-) | 03:02 |
| czr | especially when it continues with "This is used to enable ssh root@localhost." | 03:02 |
| czr | also the short package description isn't very good | 03:03 |
| timeless | "fixed" | 03:03 |
| czr | but I guess the long one could "fix" that by being more sane. | 03:03 |
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| timeless | killfill: have you made your authorized_keys file? | 03:03 |
| * sp3000 wonders why his link applet thing is blank on second boot | 03:03 | |
| timeless | i think at this point, it should install and "work" | 03:03 |
| timeless | sp3000: i used to get that all the time | 03:03 |
| timeless | good to hear it's still present :) | 03:03 |
| |tbb| | GeneralAntilles: which image u run btw which device do u got | 03:04 |
| timeless | czr: ok, so how do i fix the short desc? | 03:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | OS2008 beta for N800. | 03:04 |
| czr | timeless, "Copies SSH authorized keys from user to root" | 03:04 |
| killfill | timeless: not really. you mean to generate it, and copy it on the desktop mashine to try to login via that?.. | 03:05 |
| timeless | killfill: you can either generate it on your device or on your desktop | 03:05 |
| czr | timeless, you might also add that the copying is done when package is installed and the package does not provide any commands to do this after installation | 03:05 |
| czr | timeless, or provide a README file describing this | 03:05 |
| timeless | either way, for the package i've built, /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys needs to be on your system before you try to install my package | 03:06 |
| czr | timeless, or, an URL to some stable webpage giving usage instructions for stupid lusers like me | 03:06 |
| timeless | czr: which makes the most sense? | 03:06 |
| czr | well, you should test for the keys before mkdir /root/.ssh then ;-) | 03:07 |
| czr | and at least abort with an echo or something | 03:07 |
| timeless | "This is a dummy package it performs this operation at postinst, | 03:07 |
| czr | and document why package installation might fail | 03:07 |
| timeless | " | 03:07 |
| czr | more or less smt like that | 03:07 |
| timeless | i presume that "exit" triggers failure | 03:07 |
| czr | it depends on your target audience really | 03:07 |
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| czr | yes | 03:07 |
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| timeless | do you object to me creating a proper /root/.ssh dir in the failure case? | 03:07 |
| * timeless considered it and decided it wasn't interesting | 03:08 | |
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| czr | I don't like packages modifying my system first and then deciding that "nah, won't install" | 03:08 |
| czr | especially since the change is trivial | 03:08 |
| timeless | fair enough | 03:08 |
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| timeless | how do i do two things instead of one (echo & exit)? | 03:08 |
| czr | echo && exit | 03:08 |
| czr | you might want to redir the echo to stderr | 03:09 |
| timeless | if test ... ; then | 03:09 |
| timeless | echo Wah >& | 03:09 |
| timeless | exit 1 | 03:09 |
| timeless | fi | 03:09 |
| timeless | ? | 03:09 |
| czr | would lead to more readable script | 03:09 |
| czr | hmm. not sure about >& | 03:09 |
| czr | but I guess you can test that out pretty easily | 03:10 |
| czr | I'd use 2>&1 but that'd be bashish | 03:10 |
| czr | bashism even | 03:10 |
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| czr | also, instead of using chmod, you should set umask at the start | 03:11 |
| czr | that way your cats will create the files with proper protection if the old root keys don't exist | 03:11 |
| czr | and you don't end up modifying protection on /root/.ssh if it already exists | 03:11 |
| czr | etc etc :-) | 03:11 |
| Mikho | how easy would it be to get newer version (2.10 or 2.12) of gtk+ in maemo2.2? | 03:12 |
| czr | Mikho, for 770? | 03:12 |
| Mikho | yes | 03:12 |
| czr | Mikho, I'd think OS2008HE might have .21 | 03:12 |
| czr | .12 even | 03:12 |
| czr | but that'd not out yet. otherwise it's going to pretty painful | 03:12 |
| Mikho | i can imagine | 03:12 |
| Mikho | I think i already tried it once half a year ago. The experience was probably painful enough to make me forget all about it | 03:13 |
| Mikho | I also failed to install gtkmm | 03:13 |
| czr | hmm. what's the version in 2007HE? | 03:13 |
| Mikho | 2.6.10 was it? | 03:14 |
| Mikho | it's missing some features | 03:14 |
| Mikho | oh well, I'll have to live without grid lines in GtkTreeView | 03:14 |
| sp3000 | odd | 03:16 |
| sp3000 | using an unpopulated dictionary doesn't seem to work | 03:16 |
| czr | sp3000, dict? | 03:16 |
| derf | Wow, they managed to do 26% better than bzip2 using a _simpler_ compression algorithm. | 03:16 |
| sp3000 | czr: for input | 03:16 |
| derf | You don't see those kind of results often. | 03:16 |
| czr | sp3000, ah. i-m? | 03:17 |
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| sp3000 | yeah I have no use for words I don't use :) | 03:17 |
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| K`zan | Trying to find a case for the n800 is sure exciting... | 03:20 |
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| czr | derf, where? | 03:20 |
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| derf | czr: http://www.springerlink.com/index/jg21122l640j5403.pdf | 03:22 |
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| czr | hmm. the order0 thing has been already used before | 03:23 |
| czr | derf, you don't happen to have access to the full paper? | 03:24 |
| czr | ah. silly me :-) | 03:24 |
| czr | there was a link on the page | 03:24 |
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| czr | ah. yeah. it's not public. | 03:24 |
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| derf | czr: Yes, I have access to the full paper. | 03:25 |
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| astro76 | K`zan, http://www.amazon.com/Case-Logic-PLT-2-Strongman-Koskin/dp/B00004TZGM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1196213110&sr=8-1 | 03:25 |
| K`zan | astro76: Checking, thank you! | 03:26 |
| astro76 | K`zan, pictures with n800: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=42634&postcount=60 | 03:26 |
| timeless | czr: ok, i rewrote the script | 03:27 |
| timeless | no clue if it works w/ busybox :) | 03:27 |
| derf | But I will tell you the gist, because it's really simple: They do a whole bunch of complicated stuff with deep theoretical insight, and find out that just doing BWT+RLE with a fast adapting arithmetic encoder is better than anything involving move-to-front. | 03:27 |
| K`zan | http://cgi.ebay.com/Leather-Case-for-Nokia-N800-Internet-Tablet-Book-Type_W0QQitemZ220175644903QQihZ012QQcategoryZ20367QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem | 03:27 |
| K`zan | Most of these I see turn it from a pocket device to a briefcase device, sigh... | 03:28 |
| czr | derf, is the paper worth 25USD? | 03:28 |
| derf | And their clever algorithm which is supposed to optimally partition the output of the BWT into segments that can easily be compressed by an order-0 coder tells them that the optimal parition is... the whole string. | 03:28 |
| czr | heh | 03:28 |
| czr | sneaky | 03:28 |
| derf | czr: No. | 03:28 |
| derf | At least, I wouldn't pay $25 for it. | 03:29 |
| derf | (please ignore the thousands of dollars in tuition and fees paid to universities that get me my access) | 03:29 |
| * czr nods | 03:29 | |
| czr | I've stayed away from BWT on most of my stuff. it's too slow for most of the problems I'm working with | 03:30 |
| timeless | czr: so does it work? :) | 03:30 |
| czr | also has pretty horrible cache-behaviour which I couldn't quite work out into any better access | 03:30 |
| czr | timeless, give me a sec | 03:30 |
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| czr | you still have the useless postrm :-) | 03:30 |
| timeless | what am i supposed to d? | 03:31 |
| timeless | remove it? | 03:31 |
| czr | yeah | 03:31 |
| derf | czr: Well, the timings they give are faster than PPMd, but that's not really saying much. | 03:31 |
| timeless | can i drop the other files too? | 03:31 |
| czr | derf, indeed | 03:31 |
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| czr | timeless, which ones do you have in your source debian/? | 03:31 |
| timeless | everything you see | 03:32 |
| czr | there is also a typo on the script. umast :-) | 03:32 |
| timeless | if you reload, i have just 2 | 03:32 |
| timeless | oh brother | 03:32 |
| * czr thinks is using some shell developed for pirates | 03:32 | |
| timeless | ok, reload | 03:32 |
| timeless | timeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% ls ~/nexenta/capture-root/DEBIAN | 03:33 |
| timeless | control postinst | 03:33 |
| timeless | the package is now smaller :) | 03:33 |
| timeless | -rw-r--r-- 1 timeless webservd 960 Nov 28 04:24 /export/home/timeless/nexenta/capture-root-0.1.deb | 03:33 |
| timeless | yum, tiny :) | 03:33 |
| czr | please add "Copying is done at package install time if possible" to long desc. | 03:33 |
| timeless | any specific point in the long desc? | 03:34 |
| timeless | This package copies your /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys file to | 03:34 |
| timeless | /root/.ssh/authorized_keys at *installation* time (postinst). | 03:34 |
| czr | before .\nThis and after keys.. add ".\n" before that one line | 03:34 |
| czr | that's ok too | 03:34 |
| timeless | reload :) | 03:35 |
| czr | it assumes that the person installing the package knows what postinst means :-) | 03:35 |
| czr | but I'm ok with that. | 03:35 |
| timeless | is "installation" unclear? | 03:35 |
| czr | since you're going for small size ;-) | 03:35 |
| czr | no | 03:35 |
| timeless | bah, you bloated my file by 16 bytes | 03:35 |
| czr | that's me. the master bloater :-) | 03:35 |
| czr | "add an icon to the package" | 03:36 |
| * timeless rotfl | 03:36 | |
| timeless | um, "no" :) | 03:36 |
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| czr | hmm. the line ending with FOUNDKEYS seems weird | 03:36 |
| timeless | oops | 03:37 |
| timeless | it's missing an = | 03:37 |
| czr | that's what I thought | 03:37 |
| timeless | the line used to say ERROR, rewrites are dangerous | 03:37 |
| timeless | reload :) | 03:37 |
| czr | two typos | 03:38 |
| czr | DSRDIR | 03:38 |
| timeless | http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=372235&cid=21496503 | 03:38 |
| czr | you really should test the script at some point you know ;-) | 03:38 |
| timeless | i tested the original | 03:39 |
| czr | ah. before I messed it up :-) | 03:39 |
| timeless | ok, reload :) | 03:39 |
| timeless | The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The scientist says there is .3764666437 litres. The realist says "there's not enough". The doctor says "he's dead, Jim". | 03:39 |
| czr | I like the comment about chuck norris :-) | 03:39 |
| halley | George Carlin thinks the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. | 03:39 |
| timeless | you mean jack bauer? | 03:40 |
| timeless | The engineer says that the glass is twice as large as it needs to be. | 03:40 |
| timeless | Jack Bauer found out where the glass was, who drank the water, and which government they worked for. | 03:40 |
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| timeless | czr: ok, so, at this point, i have a package that works? :) | 03:41 |
| czr | I haven't tried it out | 03:41 |
| fysa | All while being accused of drinking the water himself, even though he was really really thirsty the entire day. | 03:41 |
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| WillySilly | Jack Bauer ftw | 03:42 |
| timeless | fysa++ | 03:42 |
| czr | heh fysa | 03:42 |
| czr | timeless, your timestamps are still in the future :-) | 03:42 |
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| timeless | how do i control timezone? | 03:43 |
| timeless | /etc/timezone? | 03:43 |
| czr | timeless, do a date; ssh host date; comparison to the hosts through which the files and the packaging thing goes through. should be enought to determine where the culprit is | 03:43 |
| czr | it's not timezone | 03:43 |
| czr | it's off by non 3600 second divisor | 03:43 |
| czr | you really have a bad clock in there somewhere | 03:43 |
| timeless | timeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date; ssh swift-nexenta date | 03:43 |
| timeless | Wed Nov 28 04:35:13 EET 2007 | 03:43 |
| timeless | Tue Nov 27 18:35:13 PST 2007 | 03:43 |
| czr | that's ok | 03:43 |
| czr | hmm | 03:44 |
| czr | or not. mine is something else | 03:44 |
| timeless | timeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date; ssh tinderbox date;date | 03:44 |
| timeless | Wed Nov 28 04:35:50 EET 2007 | 03:44 |
| timeless | Wed Nov 28 03:44:11 EET 2007 | 03:44 |
| timeless | Wed Nov 28 04:35:50 EET 2007 | 03:44 |
| czr | Wed Nov 28 03:44:24 EET 2007 | 03:44 |
| zerojay | alterego: Are you sure that id3lib is included in Maemo? | 03:44 |
| czr | swift is wrong, tinderbox is ok | 03:44 |
| alterego | zerojay, /usr/lib/libid3 ;) | 03:45 |
| czr | also swift-nexenta is wrong timeless | 03:45 |
| alterego | It's definitely there. | 03:45 |
| timeless | swift is fast by 37mins? | 03:45 |
| czr | yes | 03:45 |
| zerojay | alterego: Okay, because i didn't see it in the list of packages. Cool. | 03:45 |
| timeless | ok, um... | 03:45 |
| zerojay | Now you know why it's called swift. :) | 03:45 |
| czr | timeless, if you use sudo, open a sudo - su term while you jump the clock back :-) | 03:45 |
| czr | timeless, sudo is picky about the timestamps in the auth-files it creates | 03:45 |
| timeless | i don't use sudo | 03:46 |
| timeless | i use ssh :) | 03:46 |
| czr | that's ok :-) | 03:46 |
| czr | I meant for "gaining root access" | 03:46 |
| czr | there's one problem in the package btw. | 03:47 |
| czr | although I'm not quite sure how to effectively fix it | 03:47 |
| czr | timeless, suppose someone will install/remove/install/remove/install the package. what will happen? | 03:47 |
| * alterego points czr to the window | 03:47 | |
| * czr points timeless to alterego's window | 03:47 | |
| alterego | :) | 03:47 |
| czr | alterego, I have my own windows to worry about :-) | 03:48 |
| alterego | Bed time for me. g'night folks. | 03:48 |
| zerojay | alterego: Any luck with packaging id3lib? | 03:48 |
| czr | night theme master | 03:48 |
| alterego | zerojay, I'll do it tomorrow after work. | 03:48 |
| timeless | czr: from my perspective, nothing interesting | 03:48 |
| timeless | in practice, your auth list will grow uselessly | 03:48 |
| zerojay | alterego: Awesome. Thanks. :) | 03:48 |
| alterego | No problem | 03:48 |
| timeless | i could use sort|uniq and friends | 03:48 |
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| timeless | should i care? | 03:48 |
| czr | timeless, yeah. I wouldn't consider it a major bug | 03:48 |
| czr | someone else with inspiration migh fix it | 03:49 |
| czr | I thought about it for 5 seconds, didn't come up with a proper way to do it -> ignoring it | 03:49 |
| timeless | sort|uniq would work | 03:49 |
| timeless | but it requires *safely* dealing w/ temp files | 03:49 |
| czr | yup | 03:49 |
| timeless | which is non trivial at least | 03:49 |
| timeless | it can actually be done line at a time | 03:50 |
| timeless | cat $FILE|xargs -n1 maybe_add | 03:50 |
| timeless | where maybe_add greps || cat>>s | 03:50 |
| czr | you could create them under /dev/shm ;-) | 03:50 |
| czr | that way if device is reset while you're isntalling the package, the files will poof :-) | 03:50 |
| * timeless gets really scared | 03:50 | |
| czr | although I don't know how /tmp/ is arranged on the device | 03:51 |
| timeless | anyway, for people reading in the future, this is how you would do it | 03:51 |
| timeless | cat/xargs/maybe_add;maybe_add: grep||cat>> | 03:51 |
| timeless | it's actually fairly easy, but i'm pretty sure that'd require an actual script | 03:51 |
| czr | actually a for loop using a newline IFS could do the trick | 03:53 |
| czr | for key in `cat keyfile`; do | 03:53 |
| czr | ah no | 03:54 |
| czr | one would need to escape the data going into grep.. hmm. | 03:54 |
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| timeless | grep -- "$key" ? | 03:54 |
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| czr | grep -q ^"${key}"$ dstdir/keyfile | 03:54 |
| czr | but here ${key} would have to be escaped for RE chars before hitting grep | 03:55 |
| timeless | \Q\E | 03:55 |
| timeless | if grep supports it | 03:55 |
| timeless | (quite possibly a perlism) | 03:55 |
| czr | ah. ^ and $ can be replaced with -x | 03:56 |
| czr | I don't think \Q\E works | 03:56 |
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| czr | infact, a lot of the modifiers that we're used to don't exist in regular/egrep | 03:56 |
| * timeless nods | 03:56 | |
| czr | the package is good enough to have my stamp of approval now :-) | 03:57 |
| czr | although I haven't tested it | 03:57 |
| timeless | what's -w do? | 03:57 |
| timeless | -w Searches for the expression as a word as if surrounded | 03:57 |
| timeless | by \< and \>. | 03:57 |
| czr | allows the search to be surrounded by whitespace (and whitespace only) | 03:57 |
| timeless | egrep -F | 03:58 |
| czr | ^\s* foo \s*$ basically | 03:58 |
| timeless | /usr/xpg4/bin/grep | 03:58 |
| timeless | -F would work | 03:58 |
| czr | ah. interesting. yes. maybe | 03:58 |
| timeless | something tells me we don't have xpg4/bin/grep :( | 03:58 |
| czr | there's fgrep | 03:58 |
| czr | not sure about the device, let me see | 03:58 |
| czr | it's there | 03:59 |
| czr | "No help available." -> success :-) | 03:59 |
| timeless | fgrep - search a file for a fixed-character string | 03:59 |
| sp3000 | timeless: mailed | 03:59 |
| timeless | thanks | 03:59 |
| timeless | sp3000: did it work? :) | 03:59 |
| timeless | (since i sent you the patch too) | 03:59 |
| sp3000 | which one? | 03:59 |
| zerojay | What's the new root password in IT2008 again? | 04:00 |
| timeless | zerojay: it's not a new password | 04:00 |
| timeless | it just doesn't let you use it w/o r&d mode | 04:00 |
| zerojay | oh crap. | 04:00 |
| timeless | or you could try mjy package :) | 04:00 |
| czr | heh | 04:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 04:00 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/capture-root-0.1.deb | 04:00 |
| czr | in all honesty, zerojay, you'd be the first person to actually try it :-) | 04:01 |
| timeless | yeah, that too :) | 04:01 |
| czr | so that you don't have any illusions :-) | 04:01 |
| zerojay | If I don't respond in ten minutes... | 04:01 |
| zerojay | ...reboot me. | 04:01 |
| czr | will do | 04:01 |
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| zerojay | Unable to install capture-root. | 04:02 |
| czr | hmm. | 04:02 |
| timeless | did it say why? :) | 04:02 |
| zerojay | Retrying in red pill mode. | 04:02 |
| timeless | there's an error log in application amanger | 04:02 |
| czr | maybe I should take the package for a spin | 04:02 |
| czr | ah yes! | 04:02 |
| timeless | you have to ask for the error log | 04:02 |
| czr | check the am log first zerojay | 04:02 |
| timeless | it's in tools>log iirc | 04:02 |
| timeless | (or something similarly hard to find) | 04:03 |
| czr | zerojay, you don't have authorized_keys in /home/user. | 04:03 |
| czr | zerojay, that's why it will fail to install | 04:03 |
| czr | you need to get your key into /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys first | 04:03 |
| czr | THEN install the package | 04:03 |
| czr | shouldn't be any need for redpill-mode | 04:03 |
| zerojay | Ok.. so I have to create the key... | 04:03 |
| czr | you don't have an ssh key? | 04:04 |
| timeless | you can ssh-keygen on the device | 04:04 |
| timeless | i should probably generate one if ther eisn't one | 04:04 |
| czr | but then you'd have to transfer the key outside from the device, which is bleh | 04:04 |
| czr | yeah | 04:04 |
| czr | err, no | 04:04 |
| timeless | since the average case is a user who just wants to root their own localhost | 04:04 |
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| czr | hmm. | 04:04 |
| timeless | why not? | 04:04 |
| czr | I'm thinking of the implications of leaving the key on a predefined location on a mobile device | 04:05 |
| * timeless ponders | 04:05 | |
| czr | cause by stealing that key by a rogue application would allow _automatic_ access to that device as root | 04:05 |
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| czr | and you don't really want to make that too easy | 04:05 |
| * timeless nods | 04:05 | |
| timeless | otoh... if that key exists | 04:05 |
| timeless | and is stealable | 04:05 |
| timeless | we have bigger problems | 04:05 |
| czr | also, you can't ask for passphrase during generation | 04:05 |
| timeless | because, e.g., i do that | 04:06 |
| czr | but it's a user decision then | 04:06 |
| zerojay | Screw it, I just enabled r&d mode. ;P | 04:06 |
| czr | it's not something your script will automatically do :-) | 04:06 |
| czr | zerojay, noo | 04:06 |
| timeless | zerojay: aww | 04:06 |
| czr | zerojay, we need someone to test the package :-) | 04:06 |
| timeless | please seriously, needs testing | 04:06 |
| zerojay | Alright, alright... | 04:06 |
| * czr surrounds zerojay with fuzzy warm feeling | 04:06 | |
| timeless | ssh-keygen -t rsa | 04:06 |
| zerojay | Just because I like the idea of Nokians begging. | 04:06 |
| zerojay | ;) | 04:06 |
| timeless | enter enter | 04:06 |
| * czr pretends to be a Nokie for a moment | 04:06 | |
| timeless | cat ~/.ssh/*.pub > ~/.ssh/authorized_keys | 04:07 |
| timeless | then install | 04:07 |
| * timeless hopes that's about right | 04:07 | |
| czr | should be | 04:07 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ fgrep "`head -1 .ssh/authorized_keys`" .ssh/authorized_keys|wc -l | 04:07 |
| timeless | 1 | 04:07 |
| czr | fgrep -c :-) | 04:08 |
| czr | then remove the wc | 04:08 |
| zerojay | Takes a while to generate the keys. | 04:08 |
| czr | that's normal | 04:08 |
| zerojay | Yeah, I know. | 04:08 |
| czr | (slow cpu) | 04:08 |
| timeless | czr: ok, there's a blank line in my file | 04:08 |
| timeless | i guess that'll match all lines | 04:09 |
| timeless | and not be added | 04:09 |
| timeless | which is fine | 04:09 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ fgrep -n "`tail -1 .ssh/authorized_keys`" .ssh/authorized_keys|tail -1 | 04:09 |
| timeless | 6: | 04:09 |
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| timeless | czr: does busybox support functions? | 04:10 |
| * timeless wonders what a function looks like | 04:10 | |
| czr | timeless, not sure. best you test yourself | 04:10 |
| timeless | yuck! | 04:10 |
| czr | ok ok. I'll test | 04:10 |
| halley | Making an id.pub on a pocket device is useless; never let a heavy machine trust an easily-stealable machine. | 04:10 |
| _Monkey | i already had it that way, halley. | 04:10 |
| * timeless doesn't even know how to write them | 04:10 | |
| timeless | halley: the question is: is it ok to let a pocket device trust itself? | 04:11 |
| timeless | that's the primary task here | 04:11 |
| zerojay | k, keys generated, cat done. What now? | 04:11 |
| czr | timeless, works: foo () { \n echo foo \n } | 04:11 |
| halley | You ssh to root@localhost? | 04:11 |
| timeless | zerojay: now try installing the deb again | 04:11 |
| czr | although you'll have to be careful with variables and such | 04:11 |
| zerojay | k | 04:11 |
| timeless | halley: yes | 04:11 |
| halley | Wacky. | 04:11 |
| czr | halley, although you can also ssh root@n8foo from outside too | 04:11 |
| timeless | czr: much harder, have to find ip | 04:12 |
| czr | timeless, no it's not :-) | 04:12 |
| halley | czr, you can, though best practices locks off root@ entirely, and you sudo up from a user as required. | 04:12 |
| timeless | 127.1 is so convenient :) | 04:12 |
| czr | halley, yes, and linux is a variant of unix. | 04:12 |
| timeless | alley: best practices aren't found on this device :) | 04:13 |
| timeless | and out of the box, there's no password for user | 04:13 |
| timeless | besides, passwords are bad | 04:13 |
| timeless | they're guessable | 04:13 |
| zerojay | timeless: Install failed. postinst: line 19: syntax error: end of file unexpected (expecting "then") | 04:13 |
| czr | thanks zerojay | 04:13 |
| timeless | oh oops! | 04:14 |
| * timeless was switching syntaxes | 04:14 | |
| zerojay | Subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 2. | 04:14 |
| czr | timeless, indent, indent, indent! | 04:14 |
| czr | zerojay, you'll get a new version shortly :-) | 04:14 |
| zerojay | I'm still in r&d mode.. does it matter for the moment? | 04:14 |
| czr | you'll be surprised as to how shortly :-) | 04:14 |
| timeless | reload | 04:14 |
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| czr | well. we were kind of hoping for the package to enable root access without forcing to set the device into r&d mode first. that's the whole idea in the package | 04:15 |
| czr | but r&d shouldn't affect it. | 04:15 |
| zerojay | Same error. | 04:15 |
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| timeless | u | 04:15 |
| czr | hmm. does the device keep package cache? | 04:15 |
| zerojay | Looks like it. | 04:15 |
| zerojay | Said 0kb to download. | 04:15 |
| czr | hmm. let me try the package on mine | 04:15 |
| timeless | kick it | 04:15 |
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| timeless | in redpill ode i think there's a way to whack the cache | 04:16 |
| halley | I guess mentioning version number bumps would go unheeded. ;) | 04:16 |
| timeless | there's a check mark "clean apt cache" in red pill mode | 04:16 |
| timeless | halley: i'm not writing a changelog | 04:17 |
| timeless | "fixed typo #32" | 04:17 |
| czr | size 0.94 KB heh | 04:17 |
| zerojay | timeless: It's already checked. | 04:17 |
| czr | Install application? 2 kB | 04:17 |
| timeless | czr: should it say 1? | 04:17 |
| timeless | or 0? | 04:17 |
| timeless | i picked 2 because the thing i hijacked had a bigger number and 2 sounded good :) | 04:18 |
| timeless | zerojay: oh "Use MMC to download packages" | 04:18 |
| timeless | clearly the packages are on the mmc :) | 04:18 |
| czr | error parsing depends list | 04:18 |
| timeless | czr: eh? | 04:18 |
| czr | timeless, what will happen if you remove the fields that are empty in control at the moment? | 04:18 |
| timeless | dunno | 04:18 |
| timeless | should i? | 04:19 |
| czr | hmm | 04:19 |
| zerojay | timeless: Already checked. | 04:19 |
| czr | that'd from /usr/bin/dpkg-deb -f '/var/tmp/capture-root-0.1.deb' | 04:19 |
| timeless | zerojay: yeah, but that means that's where ti's caching it | 04:19 |
| zerojay | oh, ok | 04:19 |
| timeless | you should be able to find it on /media/mmc1/ i'd bet | 04:19 |
| czr | I'll try it on cmdline | 04:19 |
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| czr | hmm. I'm hitting exit 1 without errors on mine | 04:20 |
| timeless | odd | 04:21 |
| * timeless fixes indentation of exit 1 | 04:21 | |
| czr | hmm. running the script manually works | 04:21 |
| timeless | oh | 04:21 |
| timeless | did i forget to do "export"? | 04:21 |
| timeless | i think i need export FOUNDKEYS | 04:22 |
| czr | where? | 04:22 |
| czr | why? | 04:22 |
| timeless | test isn't a builtin, right? | 04:22 |
| czr | ahhh | 04:22 |
| czr | yes | 04:22 |
| timeless | hrm, no, it's going to evaluate | 04:22 |
| czr | and I didn't notice that the exit code was actually 1 now | 04:22 |
| czr | since the script was silent | 04:22 |
| czr | why is it silent? | 04:22 |
| timeless | ok, new up | 04:23 |
| timeless | export FOUNDKEYS | 04:23 |
| czr | timeless, bleh. add exit 0 as the last line | 04:23 |
| timeless | if test -z "$FOUNDKEYS"; then | 04:23 |
| czr | it's not the export | 04:23 |
| timeless | oh yuck | 04:23 |
| czr | the last test will fail | 04:23 |
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| czr | and that will remain the exit code for the whole script | 04:23 |
| timeless | oh right | 04:23 |
| timeless | pushed | 04:23 |
| czr | yeah, give me a sec :-). I'll have to undone stuff first ;-) | 04:24 |
| timeless | heh | 04:24 |
| timeless | i suppose we could write a version that could postrm | 04:24 |
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| timeless | basically record which entries we add and then use some really evil magic to fgrep -v remove them? :) | 04:24 |
| czr | no you can't. too difficult | 04:24 |
| czr | what if used manually edits the key-list in between the two? | 04:24 |
| czr | you really want to handle that logic in a shell script? | 04:25 |
| timeless | i think it's doable | 04:25 |
| czr | it's doable. just not worth it | 04:25 |
| timeless | remember each line as they're added to a file | 04:25 |
| timeless | and then singly remove them | 04:25 |
| timeless | but leave the file | 04:25 |
| czr | I just wish that there'd be at least some version of python on the device | 04:25 |
| timeless | of course, second install would complain | 04:25 |
| * timeless shrugs | 04:25 | |
| timeless | i'd have written this in perl :) | 04:25 |
| czr | I hate perl | 04:27 |
| czr | and don't get me wrong, I've written large programs in perl | 04:27 |
| czr | I hate it anyway :-) | 04:27 |
| czr | the package installs now | 04:27 |
| czr | the scenario that was tested was: /root/.ssh/authorized_keys existed already | 04:27 |
| czr | device is not in r&d mode | 04:28 |
| * czr woots in silence. | 04:28 | |
| * sp3000 grumbles at im | 04:30 | |
| czr | hmm. I wonder how difficult it would be to make a proper gainroot | 04:30 |
| czr | without all the r&d silliness and without touching /usr/sbin/gainroot | 04:30 |
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| czr | derf, the rleacs with fast adapt do have quite impressive gain. too bad they're almost twice as slow as bzip2 | 04:33 |
| czr | decompression speed is 3-4x slower too | 04:33 |
| czr | derf, thanks for the link though. | 04:34 |
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| halley | Wow, what the heck is nw.qt ? | 04:39 |
| * sp3000 flashes some more | 04:39 | |
| timeless | sp3000: oh, do you not have access to corporate mail from home? | 04:39 |
| timeless | i sent your work address the patch... | 04:39 |
| sp3000 | I don't | 04:39 |
| timeless | ok, replied w/ patch | 04:40 |
| * sp3000 tries again with correct image | 04:40 | |
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| * czr tries to find out the minimal way to divert dhclient generated /etc/resolv.conf to some other place | 04:44 | |
| timeless | chroot ;-) | 04:44 |
| czr | suggestions are welcome. ones not involving touching any configuration files are scripts are more so. | 04:44 |
| * czr puts timeless in a chroot | 04:44 | |
| timeless | can i get home? | 04:44 |
| czr | sure | 04:45 |
| czr | mkdir ${HOME} :-) | 04:45 |
| czr | then cd | 04:45 |
| timeless | i used to do HOME=/tmp/timeless; mkdir $HOME; cd $HOME | 04:45 |
| halley | Is timeless still at work? | 04:45 |
| timeless | yes? | 04:45 |
| czr | poor timeless | 04:45 |
| timeless | poor? falafel closes @5am | 04:45 |
| timeless | it's 15til | 04:46 |
| czr | heh | 04:46 |
| czr | well, soon the other places start opening up :-) | 04:46 |
| timeless | name 2? | 04:46 |
| czr | mac-donalds and hesburger | 04:46 |
| * czr hides & runs | 04:46 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 04:46 |
| * timeless throws "french fries" @czr | 04:47 | |
| czr | reminds me of one funny thing | 04:47 |
| czr | in a bar/disco/restarurant back in shanghai | 04:47 |
| czr | on the drinks menu they had snacks and everything | 04:47 |
| czr | they also had "fried french" | 04:47 |
| czr | although a nice jazz-lounge I used to frequent had "screw driver" | 04:48 |
| czr | never tested it though. | 04:48 |
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| halley | Lots of mixed drinks are named funny/sexy names in US. Not everywhere? | 04:55 |
| czr | they are | 04:55 |
| halley | screwdriver = orange-juice + vodka | 04:55 |
| czr | pretty much everywhere | 04:55 |
| czr | I know what the drink is. that wasn't the point. | 04:55 |
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| * timelE61i missed a drink? | 05:01 | |
| * sp3000 flashes some more | 05:02 | |
| timelE61i | czr: so is package useful? | 05:02 |
| czr | timelE61i, which one? | 05:02 |
| timelE61i | capture-root | 05:02 |
| czr | it might be. depends on whether you're lazy enough and don't want to use r&d or don't have the cable & flasher3 handy | 05:03 |
| czr | if you can do r&d easily, doing that will be easier | 05:03 |
| czr | probably | 05:03 |
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| sp3000 | erm | 05:07 |
| sp3000 | what's the name of the submenu in 2007 where you have the cpl and backup and friends | 05:08 |
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| czr | Utilities? hmmh. | 05:08 |
| * timelE61i is home | 05:08 | |
| czr | don't have 2007 handy any more | 05:08 |
| sp3000 | tools or settings | 05:08 |
| czr | settings | 05:08 |
| _Monkey | settings are never all the same. | 05:08 |
| czr | 99% sure about that one | 05:09 |
| sp3000 | settings in 2008, I'm thinking toos in 2007 | 05:09 |
| czr | hmm. /me shrugs. | 05:09 |
| czr | sp3000, how badly do you need that? | 05:09 |
| czr | I could always reflash one N800 with 2007 | 05:09 |
| czr | but I'd have to reflash back and it'd be pita | 05:09 |
| sp3000 | there's google image search :) | 05:09 |
| czr | right. tell me if you need me to flash though. I can do it. | 05:10 |
| czr | (the device has no useful stuff on it) | 05:10 |
| sp3000 | http://maemo.org/forrest-images/maemo_tutorial_bora/Graphic33.png ...but | 05:10 |
| czr | you sure that's 2007? | 05:11 |
| czr | doesn't look like 2007 | 05:11 |
| sp3000 | hence the but | 05:11 |
| czr | yeah | 05:11 |
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| sp3000 | http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/425509943_b19222a44f.jpg | 05:11 |
| czr | most of the screenshots in the howtos are not from the version they should be :-) | 05:11 |
| czr | that seems better | 05:11 |
| timelE61i | Yeah, you should know better than to trust a maemo tutorial | 05:12 |
| * czr knows better than he wants to admit | 05:13 | |
| czr | I'm glad to say that all my material is up-to-date at least. | 05:13 |
| czr | at least the stuff I've actually read properly through. but screenshots, captures and source codes are all up to date. | 05:13 |
| timelyx | speaking of which | 05:13 |
| timelyx | wanna go another round? | 05:13 |
| czr | no | 05:13 |
| czr | :-) | 05:13 |
| * |R flashing 2008b | 05:13 | |
| czr | nothing personal. too busy & I really need a rest from all that crap right now :-) | 05:13 |
| czr | I'm anticipating another flood of updates on wed/thursday | 05:14 |
| timelyx | ok | 05:14 |
| czr | I'm trying to make a process for setting up a local repo | 05:14 |
| czr | and doing DNS-based diversion | 05:14 |
| czr | so that one can use the automatic install scripts as they are, but all installation will be done from stuff that is available on localhost | 05:15 |
| czr | (which will carry the mirror of repo.meemoo) | 05:15 |
| czr | and the setup will support dhcp-operation on the host, and require zero changes inside sbox targets even if the machine is taken around in different networks, etc. | 05:16 |
| timelyx | can someone w/ an n800 handy check something for me? | 05:18 |
| timelyx | what's the official description on the tablets-dev site for the 2008 flash? | 05:19 |
| czr | timelyx, which version? | 05:19 |
| czr | url? | 05:19 |
| timelyx | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php | 05:19 |
| timelyx | i suppose | 05:19 |
| timelyx | don't download anything, ideally once you give it an id it should tell you the versions and descriptions | 05:20 |
| timelyx | although iirc there's also a readme | 05:20 |
| czr | bleh | 05:21 |
| czr | that screen is really annoying on N800! | 05:21 |
| czr | 1) the input field is not really visible with microb | 05:21 |
| czr | 2) once you touch in it, it will popup the toolbar + vkb | 05:21 |
| timelyx | nice | 05:21 |
| czr | 3) they will cover that field | 05:21 |
| czr | then you scroll it back into visibilty | 05:21 |
| czr | and that triggers the VKB to hide | 05:22 |
| czr | wtf :-) | 05:22 |
| czr | but I assume that you don't actually need people to use the N800 to access that URL, right? :-) | 05:22 |
| timelyx | the vkb impl is fairly stupid :) | 05:22 |
| czr | "really" :-) | 05:22 |
| timelyx | dolske was using firefox to download it | 05:22 |
| czr | got the privmsg? | 05:23 |
| timelyx | cool, they fixed it :) | 05:23 |
| timelyx | The first beta IT OS 2008 release for Nokia N800 | 05:24 |
| timelyx | "first beta" is in bold | 05:24 |
| czr | heh | 05:24 |
| timelyx | qgil/ferenc ++ | 05:24 |
| *** shi11 has joined #maemo | 05:24 | |
| * timelyx sent an sms to qgil complaining about that monday (?) | 05:24 | |
| sp3000 | 2406 | 05:25 |
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| * sp3000 should probably take a nap | 05:26 | |
| czr | you running against deadlines once more? | 05:26 |
| czr | or this is a more of a hobby nowadays? :-) | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | Is this a good place for troubleshooting? | 05:26 |
| timelyx | nice | 05:26 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, depends in you come with your own rifles or not | 05:26 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, sure, shoot. | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | heh | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | I just got a new N800 | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | and I seem to have trouble playing audio | 05:26 |
| czr | in=if even. | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | mp3s, etc. | 05:26 |
| pressbuttan2win | Says "Unable to perform operation. Try again." | 05:27 |
| czr | 1) does it always do that | 05:27 |
| pressbuttan2win | yes always | 05:27 |
| timelyx | did you try the n800's normal mp3s? | 05:27 |
| czr | 2) is there a specific source where you have the mp3s in | 05:27 |
| timelyx | and which os are you using? | 05:27 |
| czr | 3) have you tried the stock files that come with the device | 05:27 |
| pressbuttan2win | Yes, stock mp3 on the device | 05:27 |
| czr | they don't work? | 05:27 |
| pressbuttan2win | as well as one from my SD card that I tried | 05:27 |
| pressbuttan2win | nope | 05:27 |
| pressbuttan2win | ITOS2007, I think it's the latest rev | 05:28 |
| timelyx | go to control panel, | 05:28 |
| timelyx | about device | 05:28 |
| timelyx | somewhere in the top it'll give the version | 05:28 |
| pressbuttan2win | 4.2007.38-2 | 05:28 |
| pressbuttan2win | I'm going to try 2008 as soon as I get it downloaded, but I can't seem to find information about anyone having a similar problem | 05:29 |
| timelyx | i just got home. at work i could try searching the code to find out what the error you got means | 05:29 |
| pressbuttan2win | Except for a chatlog from this channel, hehe. And their question went unanswered | 05:29 |
| pressbuttan2win | Now, FM Radio works fine | 05:29 |
| pressbuttan2win | if it's piped over the speakers | 05:29 |
| pressbuttan2win | but if you try to change to headphones | 05:30 |
| timelyx | wait | 05:30 |
| timelyx | you installed fm radio? | 05:30 |
| pressbuttan2win | Yes | 05:30 |
| timelyx | someone complained that the fm radio pretty much broke normal sound stuffs | 05:30 |
| pressbuttan2win | Though, mp3s didn't play prior to FM radio either | 05:30 |
| timelyx | ok. very important | 05:30 |
| timelyx | you could try installing ukmp or mplayer or the other one | 05:31 |
| timelyx | and see if those work | 05:31 |
| pressbuttan2win | "Audio output switching failed" | 05:31 |
| pressbuttan2win | if you try to hit the icon button for FM Radio | 05:31 |
| timelyx | the fm radio is "magical" | 05:31 |
| pressbuttan2win | ok, I'll see about getting mplayer. Though, I wonder if something more sinister is going on here. :-p | 05:31 |
| * sp3000 just suggests the magical tonic de reboot for everything | 05:31 | |
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| timelyx | pressbuttan2win and the other guy bother indicated that didn't fix it | 05:32 |
| ekim|n770 | heey | 05:32 |
| pressbuttan2win | I drank that tonic 20 minutes ago ;) | 05:32 |
| sp3000 | without charger plugged in, too? :) | 05:32 |
| pressbuttan2win | oh | 05:32 |
| pressbuttan2win | Will try that :-[ | 05:32 |
| ekim|n770 | i want to format one of the partitions on my card | 05:32 |
| timelyx | i think that "Audio output switching failed" might make sense | 05:32 |
| sp3000 | with charger plugged in it just pretends. | 05:32 |
| timelyx | but i'd have to be at work to read it | 05:32 |
| ekim|n770 | how can i do that simply | 05:32 |
| * czr bangs head against wall | 05:33 | |
| * pupnik plays Wagner | 05:33 | |
| pressbuttan2win | Hmm, I think sp3000 may have a point... | 05:33 |
| pressbuttan2win | haha | 05:33 |
| pressbuttan2win | That did it. | 05:33 |
| czr | I wonder where my /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf went.. | 05:33 |
| pressbuttan2win | I had no idea the charger made things finicky like that. | 05:33 |
| pressbuttan2win | Thanks czr and sp3000 | 05:34 |
| pressbuttan2win | and timelyx :-D | 05:34 |
| sp3000 | np | 05:34 |
| ekim|n770 | if nobody will tel me I'm going to sleep | 05:34 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, np & have fun | 05:34 |
| * sp3000 blames wedged $daemon or some other magic state | 05:34 | |
| * czr tel's ekim|n770 | 05:34 | |
| ekim|n770 | plz tell | 05:34 |
| pupnik | ekim|n770: i format on a card reader | 05:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | With a computer, ekim|n770. | 05:34 |
| ekim|n770 | no | 05:34 |
| ekim|n770 | actually on the device | 05:34 |
| pupnik | fdisk i think, then mk*fs | 05:35 |
| pressbuttan2win | Oh, and one last question. Anyone have any experience with WEP+PEAP? | 05:35 |
| pressbuttan2win | Seems it's not supported out of the box | 05:35 |
| ekim|n770 | my fat32 partition is messed up | 05:35 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, dig for maemo-devel archives and search using PEAP | 05:35 |
| sp3000 | not to be confused with mkf***s | 05:35 |
| pressbuttan2win | Alright, thanks | 05:35 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, I don't think PEAP is supported. could be some legal issues with cisco and such | 05:35 |
| pressbuttan2win | Sucky :( | 05:35 |
| czr | pressbuttan2win, but I remember seeing some mails about it, check the archives first | 05:36 |
| pressbuttan2win | I think I saw that WPA with PEAP is available | 05:36 |
| czr | I might be talking up my ass. | 05:36 |
| ekim|n770 | ok....if you don't feel like telling me | 05:36 |
| ekim|n770 | geez | 05:36 |
| czr | ekim|n770, it's formatted using the same tools that one would use on regular linux desktops (on the command line that is) | 05:36 |
| czr | ekim|n770, fdisk to partition the card (if necessary), then mkfs to create the filesystems on each partition, depending on what kind of filesystem you want to create | 05:37 |
| czr | mkfs.vfat might be a good starting point for you | 05:37 |
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| czr | you'll need to get fdisk & that program on the device first. seeing as you have "n" 770, you'll need to hunt for the tools in prepackaged format. | 05:37 |
| ekim|n770 | I already did all that | 05:37 |
| czr | or you could send an email to maemo-users | 05:37 |
| czr | and? | 05:38 |
| ekim|n770 | i want to format an existing partition | 05:38 |
| pupnik | good answer czr | 05:38 |
| pupnik | then mkfs on that part | 05:38 |
| czr | just make sure it's not mounted at that moment | 05:39 |
| czr | (use df -T and umount as root to get rid of it if it is) | 05:39 |
| ekim|n770 | how do I find out the mount point | 05:39 |
| czr | use df -T. | 05:39 |
| czr | it will list all mount points | 05:39 |
| czr | -T will add the filesystem type. it will be vfat for the memory card | 05:40 |
| czr | the right-most column is the mount point | 05:40 |
| czr | if df -T doesn't work, try just 'df' | 05:40 |
| ekim|n770 | /media/mmc1 | 05:41 |
| ekim|n770 | so umount /media/mmc1 | 05:41 |
| ekim|n770 | then how do I format it | 05:41 |
| czr | sounds amount right | 05:41 |
| czr | hmm. what was the device from which /media/mmc1 was mounted from? | 05:42 |
| czr | that's the left-most column of df | 05:42 |
| czr | if you still have that visible | 05:42 |
| czr | starts with /dev/ something. | 05:42 |
| ekim|n770 | /dev/mmcblk0p1 | 05:42 |
| czr | right. | 05:42 |
| czr | that's the first partition on the card | 05:42 |
| czr | probably the only partition on that card too :-) | 05:43 |
| czr | mkfs.vfat /dev/mmcblk0p1 | 05:43 |
| czr | that will create a new vfat filesystem on that partition | 05:43 |
| czr | (which is sometimes called "formatting", esp in windows) | 05:43 |
| ekim|n770 | i know what all this stuff means | 05:45 |
| ekim|n770 | the card has two prtitions | 05:46 |
| ekim|n770 | each about 500 megs | 05:46 |
| ekim|n770 | one ext2 one fat32 | 05:46 |
| ekim|n770 | but somehow my fat partition got corrupted | 05:47 |
| czr | fdisk -l /dev/mmcblk0 | 05:47 |
| czr | that will give you a list of partitions on the block device | 05:47 |
| czr | using the partition table on the device | 05:47 |
| czr | and that will probably help you decide which partition to mkfs then | 05:48 |
| ekim|n770 | i dn't have fdisk | 05:49 |
| ekim|n770 | and I cant get it | 05:50 |
| ekim|n770 | because it breaks tons of stuff | 05:50 |
| ekim|n770 | well i!!m going to sleep | 05:50 |
| * czr nods | 05:50 | |
| ekim|n770 | ill fix it in the morning | 05:50 |
| ekim|n770 | g'night czr | 05:51 |
| czr | night | 05:51 |
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| oil | are you also having problems with memorycards? my 8GB hdsc has been lost by os2008 couple of times now. | 05:53 |
| timelyx | "lost"? | 05:53 |
| zerojay | Yeah, about to ask the same thing. | 05:53 |
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| timelyx | "you"? while i'm asking questions :) | 05:54 |
| czr | what questions? | 05:54 |
| timelyx | <what does "x" mean in the last sentence containing "x"?> | 05:55 |
| czr | bleh. messing up dhcp client beyong recovery is not fun. /me kicks ISC for producing such crap | 05:55 |
| czr | timelyx, why do you ask? | 05:55 |
| oil | timelyx: I can not see the mount anymore | 05:55 |
| oil | and there were some FAT errors on dmesg, but I did not copy those when I had the problem. | 05:56 |
| timelyx | halley: btw, did you get the typo in screw_driver? | 05:57 |
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| * czr hates services which don't remove their pid-files | 06:04 | |
| czr | on shutdown | 06:04 |
| |R | anyone having weird things happen with SIP? i can get it to connect, call, and talk... and the next call it just dies when the other end answers... the next one it won't even ring it. and so on randomly | 06:07 |
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| |R | (OS2008) | 06:07 |
| oil | ir: did this happen with previous version of os? and which sip provider are you using? | 06:08 |
| |R | oil : right now it's just an internal test through my asterisk | 06:08 |
| |R | n800 -> asterisk -> other-SPA | 06:08 |
| |R | oil : and i actually had it working a while back on OS2007 | 06:09 |
| oil | could there be something that the spa/asteris does not send bye message ? | 06:09 |
| oil | ok. | 06:09 |
| |R | but didn't do any extensive testing, and yesterday it didn't work on OS2007, so i flashed 2007 again, didn't work... (video chat was dead too for some reasons, i though i had a conflict with something i had installed since) | 06:09 |
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| |R | and so ... i figure why not try OS 2008 beta... video chat is back #1 with a friend but SIP is completely random :| | 06:10 |
| |R | oil : if it wasnt sending bye i guess that unregistering/registering would fix it ? | 06:11 |
| oil | well, if you had already yesterday problems with os2007. then I'd check more of the asterisk. | 06:11 |
| |R | but it doesn't seem to do anything to help and i see the un/register in asterisk -rvvvvv | 06:11 |
| oil | if the case is so that the n800 or the asterisk server stil thinks that there is an ongoing call and therefore does not allow new call. | 06:12 |
| |R | yeah, i ll look a bit more into it, just wondering if anyone had an idea as a have a pretty basic setup right now... just a sip account in a context that just dials another sip handset | 06:12 |
| oil | and there an timeout. so the problem should resolve itself in time.. for each call | 06:12 |
| |R | i'll try to see if i detect a timeout pattern... | 06:13 |
| |R | but then... restarting asterisk & the n800 apps would fix it too | 06:13 |
| |R | urhm :| | 06:13 |
| oil | check also if you are using stun. | 06:13 |
| |R | it's checked | 06:13 |
| |R | should i remove it? | 06:13 |
| oil | for testing yes. might be that the stun server does not answer and causes delays. | 06:14 |
| |R | how does STUN work? never looked into it (it's off, testing...) | 06:15 |
| |R | uhm | 06:16 |
| oil | basically the client (behind NAT) sends an packet to the stun server (which has to be on the public internet). STUN server resolves the public IP of the terminal from the tcp headers and returns the public IP back to the terminal | 06:16 |
| |R | oh ok, plain simple :) | 06:17 |
| oil | then the terminal can put this public ip to the sip headers.. so that the calls from the public internet can be reached by the terminal behind the nat | 06:17 |
| oil | yes. it's pretty simple :) | 06:18 |
| |R | ok, i shutdowned the n800, restarted asterisk... restarted the n800... | 06:18 |
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| oil | are you runnig asterisk on real computer or openwrt? | 06:19 |
| |R | real | 06:19 |
| |R | which is my gateway | 06:19 |
| oil | ok. I'm running on openwrt, which is also the gateway | 06:20 |
| |R | it rang and when i answered it died... | 06:20 |
| oil | hmm.. better to take a look of the sip messages with wireshark or so, it might give a clue | 06:20 |
| czr | bleh. too tired to continue this crap. night sp3000 & timeless | 06:21 |
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| |R | i get: -- Registered SIP ... -- Save useragent "Telepathy ... -- Got SIP response 405 "Method Not Allowed" ... (which everyone gets) -- Executing 1234@home Diap( SIP/n800 ... SIP/spa) in new stack -- Called spa -- SIP/spa ... is ringing | 06:21 |
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| |R | SIP/spa answered SIP/n800... -- Native bridging SIP/n800 and SIP/spa | 06:22 |
| |R | and then something weird : | 06:22 |
| oil | does a call from n800-> spa work? | 06:22 |
| |R | no, that's what i'm trying :( | 06:23 |
| |R | == Spawn extension (home, 1234, 1) exited non-zero on 'SIP/n800-081ee588' | 06:23 |
| oil | both ways does not work? | 06:23 |
| |R | let me try the other way | 06:23 |
| |R | uhm weird | 06:24 |
| |R | the other way i answered, it didn't die, but i didn't get any sound on the n800 | 06:24 |
| |R | second time it works... | 06:25 |
| oil | then it could be the codecs as well. try if you can define spa to use only g711u codec | 06:25 |
| |R | 3rd time same as 1st heh... | 06:26 |
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| |R | uhm, i didn't force any codec...it should be on? | 06:27 |
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| oil | I'm thinking if the sip/sdp goes wrong in someway and therefore the clients can not negotiate common codec. then just to check, drop all other codecs and try again :) | 06:28 |
| |R | also any idea what the "user for PSTN" option is ? | 06:28 |
| oil | eg. going to as simple configuration as possible | 06:28 |
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| hexa_ | humm seems like I can't foward in ukmp.. only backward seems to work :( forward pauses .. anyone else having the problem? | 06:34 |
| hexa_ | haha ok nervermind clicking juste right of the icon works :) | 06:35 |
| oil | hexa_: hoho :) | 06:35 |
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| |R | oil : uhm, disallow=all, allow=g711u : [Nov 27 23:41:06] NOTICE[9690]: chan_sip.c:5331 process_sdp: No compatible codecs, not accepting this offer! | 06:41 |
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| oil | |R: huh? g711 should be the fallback codec. how about g711a? | 06:42 |
| |R | ulaw seems to pass | 06:42 |
| |R | let's try g711a :) | 06:42 |
| |R | (pass as in: rings then die on answer...) | 06:43 |
| oil | one thing you can do is to take tcpdump while calling from both of the devices. then check what they codecs they offer on the sip/sdp message | 06:43 |
| |R | should i easily be able to read it in clear text? | 06:43 |
| |R | tcpdump running ... | 06:43 |
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| oil | if you have wireshark, it's quite easy to read. | 06:44 |
| |R | g711a same as g711u | 06:44 |
| oil | http://www.wireshark.org/ | 06:44 |
| |R | yep, i think i already apt-got it :) | 06:44 |
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| oil | apt-got it. hih :) | 06:44 |
| |R | argh, first test it actually works all the way through ;) | 06:49 |
| |R | uhm, can't even find my password | 06:52 |
| pupnik | date | 06:53 |
| pupnik | Wed Nov 28 ... 16 days | 06:53 |
| |R | pupnik : ? :) | 06:54 |
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| |R | oil RTP seems to be PT=ITU-T G.711 PCMU (with no allow/disallow options) | 06:55 |
| * pupnik uses Wile-E-Coyote Acme ultra super electro magnet to suck a N810 from thousands of miles away | 06:55 | |
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| |R | pupnik : i thought it was on the 15? :) | 06:55 |
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| oil | ir: that should be ok. hmm. currently I have no idea what goes wrong. | 06:56 |
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| pupnik | oh . 17 then | 06:56 |
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| |R | oil : hehe me neither, thanks for the tips though :) | 06:56 |
| oil | ir: no prob. sorry I could not help you throught | 06:57 |
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| lopz | re | 07:02 |
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| pupnik_ | we all need vmps RM30s | 07:27 |
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| |R | argh osso-xterm on 2008 doesn't have a white on black !? | 07:28 |
| zerojay | People use white on black? | 07:28 |
| |R | i do | 07:28 |
| |R | less strain on the eyes for me :) | 07:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | It does, too. | 07:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just switch the colors in prefs. | 07:28 |
| zerojay | oh wait.. I meant black on white, never mind. | 07:28 |
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| |R | GeneralAntilles : i only get an option for background, not foreground (black on black is a bit hard for me ;) | 07:29 |
| |R | zerojay hehe :) | 07:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | You're a dirty liar. | 07:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | I changed it | 07:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | I swear! | 07:29 |
| |R | hah | 07:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Tap the font | 07:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then you get font color | 07:29 |
| |R | oh | 07:29 |
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| * |R is stupid passed midnight... uhm, maybe always actually | 07:30 | |
| zerojay | Anyone awake with a Chinook SDK handy? | 07:33 |
| |R | i have a basic scratchbox ? | 07:37 |
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| |R | xterm in 2008 has less option than the last one :( | 08:11 |
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| truent | hey guys , how do i connect to a known AP on the command line? | 08:14 |
| truent | n800 but i doubt that matters | 08:15 |
| pupnik | Mr T. - Treat Your Momma Right | 08:15 |
| |R | get iwconfig ? | 08:15 |
| pupnik | best song ever | 08:15 |
| |R | haha | 08:15 |
| |R | uhm, default root account is disabled in 2008 ? | 08:17 |
| truent | lemme try.. | 08:17 |
| |R | how am i supposed to ssh in :P | 08:17 |
| cambba_ | one way is to enable R&D mode, then sudo gainroot | 08:18 |
| |R | never had to do that on 2007 :( | 08:19 |
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| truent | hmm | 08:20 |
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| truent | when i do iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT" it disconnects then automatically connects to the strongest wlan | 08:22 |
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| L0cutus | re | 08:23 |
| truent | its a dummy adhoc (i think) AP im trying to connect to if that matters | 08:23 |
| truent | i'd rather send some option to connection manager but it has to be cli for this script | 08:24 |
| oil | have you figured out how to execute scripts after connecting to specific wlan ? | 08:26 |
| zuh | |R: You don't need r&d all the time if you put your ssh keys there... | 08:26 |
| truent | nope | 08:26 |
| |R | oh... good idea | 08:27 |
| truent | the whole thing is i wanna make a script to automate the process of connecting to my blackjack 's PAN | 08:28 |
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| truent | i can do i manually but i just wanna make it easy | 08:28 |
| truent | and the only thing holding me up is connecting to this dummy Ap via cmd line | 08:29 |
| |R | zuh : but uh, wait... i do need R&D anyway to get it there :| | 08:31 |
| * |R never looked at r&d, going to see what it implies... | 08:32 | |
| zuh | Nothing much if you just boot once with it, set up your keys and switch it off again | 08:32 |
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| |R | so it's just ./flasher --enable-rd-mode ? | 08:33 |
| zuh | yeah | 08:34 |
| truls | ack, still annoying with the blue flashing led on the directional-pad... | 08:34 |
| truls | can't understand why they do that | 08:34 |
| truls | keep thinking there's something wrong with my n800 | 08:34 |
| zuh | You can turn it off... | 08:35 |
| truls | wooo | 08:35 |
| truls | where? | 08:35 |
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| zuh | It's in control panel -> display | 08:37 |
| oil | doesnt the blue led indicate that you have new message/email/calls or something else to notify? | 08:37 |
| truls | doh | 08:37 |
| zuh | or whatever they are in english | 08:37 |
| truls | zuh: thanks, never realized... | 08:37 |
| zuh | oil: It can, but you can turn that off too | 08:37 |
| truls | "Show LED lights" didn't automatically trasnalte for me as "Blink annoyingly while sleeping" | 08:37 |
| truls | translate | 08:37 |
| zuh | Nor does LED settings logically follow display settings IMO | 08:38 |
| truls | true | 08:38 |
| truls | woo, made my day | 08:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | You can turn the sleep blinking off in OS2008 | 08:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | and leave messages and such on. | 08:40 |
| |R | R&D mode does what actually? just removes the ! in password file? | 08:40 |
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| GeneralAntilles | One of my 770s has been in R&D since early 2006 | 08:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | No problems there | 08:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | So, dunno. | 08:41 |
| |R | weird because in 2007 on my n800 i never needed to use this to get root :| | 08:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nope | 08:41 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Not sure what changed | 08:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stupid, though. | 08:42 |
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| |R | yeah, and the new xterm is butt ugly | 08:42 |
| |R | (actually can't zoom out as much as before and the font is not good for a terminal...) | 08:42 |
| |R | oh well | 08:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, it's pretty broken. | 08:43 |
| zuh | It switches a flag on and some programs react to that in certain ways, like sshd not allowing passwd logins and 'sudo gainroot' giving root access instead of a silly message | 08:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | How can I get sshd to allow logins with R&D off? | 08:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | I want my pretty bootscreen back. :) | 08:43 |
| |R | hehe, auth keys? | 08:44 |
| K`zan | Night folks | 08:44 |
| zuh | Also it seems to limit the CPU MHz, I got ~160 bogomips in /proc/cpuinfo while in r&d and the expected 390... | 08:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Uh, no. | 08:44 |
| zuh | Though I'm not 100% sure about that | 08:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | The CPU is throttled. | 08:44 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So you'll get different bogomips depending on load. :) | 08:44 |
| zuh | it seemed to be constant result, but as said, I dunno for sure | 08:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, you're wrong. :) | 08:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mine's been in R&D for a while | 08:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | and I've gotten 388 bogomips. | 08:46 |
| zuh | ok | 08:47 |
| zuh | I guess you could say then that r&d mode lowers your devices load ;) | 08:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 08:48 |
| zuh | It's funny though, got a small number, booted, got a small number again, switched the flag off & booted, got a bigger number | 08:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Start loading a website and then cat /proc/cpuinfo | 08:49 |
| zuh | But I believe in murphy so... ; | 08:49 |
| zuh | *) | 08:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Obviously, the device wasn't under load when you checked cpuinfo | 08:49 |
| zuh | yeah, seems to be 160 again... | 08:49 |
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| * |R thinks MaemoMapper should be the default navigation system, the nokia one is ugly too... | 08:50 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 08:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | It probably would be if Google's licensing would permit it. :) | 08:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | becomeroot seems to work fine on OS2008 | 08:56 |
| |R | user ALL = (ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL <- my best friend | 08:59 |
| |R | hehe | 08:59 |
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| truent | whew | 09:02 |
| truent | an actual keyboard is always nice | 09:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Now that's just weird as hell. | 09:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | I seem to have enabled some weird autocomplete mode with my bluetooth keyboard | 09:02 |
| |R | hehe | 09:03 |
| truent | seriously.. anyone have any idea how to connect to a known AP via command line? | 09:03 |
| truent | i tried 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT"' no go | 09:03 |
| pupnik | If you fall asleep, the clowns can get you. | 09:03 |
| truent | mind you DEFAULT is a dummy ap i setup per one of the wiki pages | 09:04 |
| * GeneralAntilles gets insomnia. | 09:04 | |
| zuh | truent: I bet the wireless-tools do not read gconf... | 09:04 |
| truent | any ideas then? | 09:05 |
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| truent | i was thinking originally if ConnectionManager.. or whatever its command line counterpart is named, just took command line options.. ;p | 09:06 |
| zuh | It'll work with a real AP, but not with the dummy which is for the nokia connection manager AFAIK | 09:07 |
| zuh | depends on the encryption too, WPA is not possible through wireless-tools IIRC | 09:08 |
| truent | well its all to connect to my blackjack via bluetooth.. | 09:08 |
| truent | i have to connect to this dummy ap in order for it to work properly | 09:09 |
| zuh | ah, dunno about that at all then :) | 09:09 |
| zuh | I guess you would just need to setup routing yourself, not really connect the wlan to anywhere... but as said, I dunno about that. | 09:09 |
| truent | all that stuff is good, i can do it all fine.. its just im trying to write a script to automate the whole process and i cant figure out how to eliminate clicking on the 'DEFAULT' ap in the connection manager | 09:10 |
| truent | no problems connecting, just a tedious process.. i want my wife to be able to click on a button for a script i wrote .. and have it just be on.. everything else is doable.. just connecting to an access point via cli | 09:10 |
| truent | thanks for tryin for sure ;p | 09:11 |
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| truent | btw.. im gonna try again after a reboot, but 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "networkname"' doesnt work for a real ap either | 09:18 |
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| GeneralAntilles | truent, dbus, maybe? | 09:24 |
| truent | yeah ive heard of that never looked into it.. | 09:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | It'd be a bit more involved than a shell script | 09:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | but certainly will work | 09:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | You could probably do it in Python or Ruby | 09:25 |
| truent | well the script i was gonna do was in ruby | 09:25 |
| truent | lemme look up dbus | 09:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | alterego would be the guy to talk to | 09:25 |
| truent | is it specific to n800 or just a linux lib? | 09:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | This would be specific to the N800. | 09:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, ITOS in general | 09:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://maemo.rubyx.co.uk/ruby-maemo/ | 09:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, dbus is a Linux thing | 09:26 |
| truent | yeah thats what i meant | 09:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | but what you're trying to do will probably be more maemo specific. | 09:26 |
| truent | i have ruby installed | 09:27 |
| truent | for metasploit | 09:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The generic dbus documentation should probably get you started. | 09:27 |
| truent | okie doke | 09:27 |
| truent | just sucks cuz everything else can be done with system calls or shell scripting | 09:28 |
| truent | ;p | 09:28 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, seems like what you're trying to do should work. | 09:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | But, dunno. | 09:31 |
| timelyx | oh fsck me | 09:32 |
| timelyx | some idiot commented in a bug preventing my comment w/ how to help from appearing | 09:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 09:34 |
| gomiam | timelyx: I can't understand how someone commenting on a bug would keep you from doing the same. Did it get closed? | 09:35 |
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| timelyx | http://www.stickam.com/viewAudioGallery.do?uId=174834456 | 09:38 |
| timelyx | gomiam: bugzilla will generate an error message | 09:38 |
| timelyx | if you're asleep, busy, hurried, or crash | 09:38 |
| timelyx | you may not notice | 09:38 |
| timelyx | as a result, your comment either gets lost waiting for a confirm page | 09:39 |
| timelyx | or *really* lost when the browser crashes | 09:39 |
| gomiam | ow | 09:39 |
| gomiam | ok | 09:39 |
| timelyx | note to people who think N is the only company that can't get plurals right | 09:39 |
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| timelyx | "No Audios Found." is *wrong* | 09:39 |
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| timelyx | in my case, i believe my browser crashed | 09:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which browser? | 09:48 |
| timelyx | minefield | 09:48 |
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| lopz | bye | 10:01 |
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| lopz | away | 10:09 |
| * timelyx frowns | 10:09 | |
| timelyx | https://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/aggregate_your_blog/ | 10:09 |
| timelyx | > As for today the entries must be in English. | 10:10 |
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| timelyx | why should entries be in English when the requirement that they be in English isn't written in English? | 10:10 |
| timelyx | does: https://maemo.org/midcom-exec-midcom/about.php | 10:11 |
| timelyx | crash for anyone else? :) | 10:12 |
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| timelyx | anyone here awake and have a device? | 10:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Logging in. :) | 10:24 |
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| vegai | timelyx: perhaps they mean that only for today, entries need to be in English | 10:25 |
| vegai | tomorrow, do what you want | 10:25 |
| timelyx | heh | 10:26 |
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| Rogier | ha kees | 10:49 |
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| needhelp | Hi! I need your help. Iam collecting points in page listed below. If you be so kind, please click url below.(sorry for the spam, thank you) http://www.3dwhite.lt/?click=56a3cdcf22ccc7ab5f0a7f4d2bc900ff | 10:49 |
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| Rogier | test 1 2 3 | 10:49 |
| timelyx | _Monkey capture root is a package that installs your user's authorized keys so you can ssh to root@your-device http://timeless.justdave.net/capture-root-0.1.deb | 10:50 |
| _Monkey | OK, timelyx. | 10:50 |
| timelyx | _Monkey capture root =~ s/device/device. -/ | 10:50 |
| _Monkey | OK, timelyx | 10:50 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:51 |
| * timelyx pokes Jaffa | 10:51 | |
| guardian | morning | 10:52 |
| _Monkey | aloha | 10:52 |
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| timelyx | GeneralAntilles: i was talking about the device, not maemo.org :) | 10:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, the page you linked me to wanted a login | 11:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | and I couldn't login on the device | 11:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | so I couldn't test it. | 11:00 |
| timelyx | oh. my other question wasn't related to the url | 11:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, right. | 11:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | You have a test page for the menus then? | 11:00 |
| timelyx | any random app, this isn't browser related :). try notes and the details item | 11:01 |
| timelyx | sorry :) | 11:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | No worries. :) | 11:01 |
| timelyx | just because i'm a browser engineer doesn't mean all my problems are browser related :) | 11:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, hardware keys ignore greyed items. | 11:02 |
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| timelyx | ignore as in skip? | 11:05 |
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| rothiel | Hi guys :) | 11:06 |
| * timelyx pokes GeneralAntilles | 11:06 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Yessir | 11:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | They're skipped and not highlighted. | 11:07 |
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| timelyx | thanks | 11:07 |
| timelyx | stupid :) | 11:07 |
| timelyx | oh | 11:10 |
| * timelyx can drag the stupid midguard bar onscreen | 11:11 | |
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| timelyx | heh, loading http://www.skype.com/go/n800-download on my mac got me http://www.skype.com/intl/en/download/skype/windowsmobile/ | 11:14 |
| timelyx | ok, other than their site doing sniffing (probably not worse than nokia.com), skype's site is very pretty (unlike nokia.com) | 11:16 |
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| shackan | having problems here connecting to a PEAP network with MSCHAPv2 auth | 12:28 |
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| czr | timelyx, "Napsauta OK pysäyttääksesi sen, tai Peruuta odottaaksesi sen valmistumista." (instead of Paina) | 13:01 |
| czr | timelyx, ie. turns "press" into "click" | 13:01 |
| timelyx | czr: um... which does the platform use? | 13:01 |
| timelyx | i'm not at work yet (obviously) | 13:01 |
| timelyx | the platform at least in some locales seems to *never* use "click" | 13:02 |
| czr | timelyx, that was a suggestion from my l10n friend | 13:02 |
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| timelyx | much to the annoyance of all localizers with whom i've spoken | 13:02 |
| czr | it would be preferred to use click vs press. however, I think that'd be up to other people who have worked on l10n in moz | 13:02 |
| timelyx | this seems to be some sort of nokiaism | 13:02 |
| czr | ah | 13:02 |
| timelyx | the moz people all suggested click | 13:03 |
| czr | but I think you can ignore that for an open source project | 13:03 |
| czr | or this localization was for a nokia project? | 13:03 |
| timelyx | but !click won because this is essentially nokia stuff | 13:03 |
| timelyx | it's for microb | 13:03 |
| timelyx | which is only used by maemo/osso | 13:03 |
| czr | uhh. ok | 13:03 |
| X-Fade_ | Hmm very N810 alike: http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/28/compal-expects-big-things-from-mids-in-2008-dedicates-team/ | 13:03 |
| timelyx | mozilla firefox has its own text | 13:03 |
| timelyx | including buttons that don't say "OK" or "Cancel" | 13:03 |
| timelyx | they say "Stop script" and "Continue" | 13:03 |
| czr | makes sense | 13:04 |
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| czr | timelyx, any idea whether the original fi was localized within N or without? | 13:04 |
| timelyx | 99.9% certain it was by/for N | 13:04 |
| timelyx | technically N doesn't localize | 13:04 |
| czr | hah. funny email | 13:05 |
| timelyx | if you ignore the first "new" localization for those strings | 13:05 |
| timelyx | i collected 15/16 localizations by talking to Nokians | 13:05 |
| timelyx | and then lost the translation because i messed up trying to save it (notepad) | 13:05 |
| czr | ah | 13:05 |
| timelyx | gah | 13:06 |
| * timelyx sighs | 13:06 | |
| timelyx | jake is flooding me | 13:06 |
| timelyx | there's now a bug that's CLOSED LATER | 13:06 |
| timelyx | what does that mean? | 13:06 |
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| Jaffa | timelyx: indeed. | 13:09 |
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| Jaffa | Can someone try https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=806 with OS2008 and say whether or not the new, bundled osso-xterm tells the input method when character echoing is switched off? | 13:09 |
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| Segnale007 | hi there | 13:10 |
| timelyx | Jaffa: they suck | 13:10 |
| timelyx | there's an X Terminal component right next to the Input method component | 13:10 |
| timelyx | Jaffa: someone did claim they had "fixed" that "bug" | 13:12 |
| timelyx | personally, I *used* that featurre | 13:12 |
| inz | Jaffa, I tried to fix it in my version of osso-xterm, but couldn't find a way to get that info out of ncurses/vte | 13:12 |
| Jaffa | inz: Yeah, I thought it might be tricky. | 13:13 |
| Jaffa | timelyx: *mis*feature ;-) | 13:13 |
| inz | Jaffa, I think character echoing is handled elsewhere | 13:14 |
| inz | Jaffa, and thus the terminal doesn't have a clue | 13:15 |
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| inz | Jaffa, it seems they've fixed the easy way | 13:17 |
| inz | Jaffa, i.e. specified _all_ input as "secret" | 13:17 |
| timelyx | ?! | 13:17 |
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| inz | hmm, the thumb kb doesn't show asterisks | 13:18 |
| timelyx | the thumb keyboard would learn too | 13:18 |
| timelyx | so... um... | 13:19 |
| inz | but I don't get any "suggestions" when using the vkb to type stuff | 13:19 |
| timelyx | RESOLVED STUPID | 13:19 |
| Jaffa | That's just dumb. | 13:20 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I wish somebody would just go through and whip the vkb behaviors into shape. | 13:20 |
| timelyx | Jaffa: no, that's N | 13:20 |
| timelyx | someone reports a bug, you're expect to "resolve" it | 13:21 |
| timelyx | e.g., i reported a bug that changing sides in chess could lead to a crash | 13:21 |
| timelyx | they removed the ability to switch sides while the game is running | 13:21 |
| timelyx | look ma, no crash | 13:21 |
| jeffmaurici | Pls, I'm confuse about: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/how_to_use_both_usb_networking_and_the_memory_card_at_the_same_time/ | 13:23 |
| jeffmaurici | It's possible: running FS from MMC and connecting via USBnet shared from PC? | 13:24 |
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| * timelyx wonders how to get plain text in this stupid wiki | 13:28 | |
| Khertan_TheReal | Hi ! | 13:28 |
| Jaffa | timelyx: taken to extreme the device won't turn on at some point - no crashes, no security breaches, no flat battery, no lost data. Perfect! | 13:29 |
| timelyx | jeffmaurici: reload that page? | 13:29 |
| timelyx | Jaffa: it should happen :) | 13:29 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | lol i ve just see that maemo.org don't display the same ratings for application in list view or detail view | 13:30 |
| timelyx | jeffmaurici: the article sure claims it is | 13:30 |
| timelyx | Khertan_TheReal: nice | 13:32 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | someone have a n770 with an os2006 and the time to test if pygtkeditor work with it ? | 13:34 |
| timelyx | does it have to turn on? | 13:34 |
| waiting_for_n810 | no "n" in 770 ;) | 13:34 |
| timelyx | btw, what waiting_for_n810 said | 13:35 |
| Khertan_TheReal | it seems i ve found an other bug on the os2008 beta ... my nokia reboot for the second time this morning ... withou application launched ... except gpesummary in applet | 13:35 |
| * timelyx grumbles | 13:35 | |
| Khertan_TheReal | so an nokia 770 ? :) | 13:35 |
| timelyx | right | 13:35 |
| timelyx | i can't believe someone used the word synergy in a bug comment | 13:35 |
| waiting_for_n810 | pygtkeditor ... if i remember correctly I could not install it on my 770 because some packets where missing | 13:35 |
| timelyx | packets? heh | 13:36 |
| Khertan_TheReal | ? | 13:36 |
| Khertan_TheReal | it s only require pymaemo | 13:36 |
| timelyx | ok, my 770 is booting | 13:36 |
| timelyx | happy hands | 13:36 |
| waiting_for_n810 | just gimme a minute | 13:36 |
| timelyx | oh | 13:36 |
| timelyx | but i'd need to know my wifi password | 13:36 |
| * waiting_for_n810 goes downstairs to catch his 770 | 13:36 | |
| Khertan_TheReal | timelyx and waiting_for_n810 > try with the version available on my website : http://khertan.net/ | 13:37 |
| db48x | timelyx: it's just a little retconning | 13:37 |
| waiting_for_n810 | k wait | 13:37 |
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| waiting_for_n810 | got to download that ;) | 13:37 |
| Khertan_TheReal | pffff maemo.org is very slow | 13:38 |
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| waiting_for_n810 | lets hope the browser does not crash... | 13:39 |
| waiting_for_n810 | man i've got to get a new tablet :/ | 13:39 |
| waiting_for_n810 | hmpf | 13:40 |
| dpb_ | I wonder if I'll use the N810 more than my old 770.. | 13:40 |
| Khertan_TheReal | ? | 13:40 |
| Khertan_TheReal | dpb_ > like many of us :) | 13:40 |
| timelyx | ok, password set | 13:40 |
| timelyx | trying ot connect | 13:40 |
| waiting_for_n810 | microb got an error | 13:40 |
| Khertan_TheReal | lol | 13:40 |
| Khertan_TheReal | on package download ? | 13:40 |
| waiting_for_n810 | the fucking n810 is fucking expensive >:( | 13:41 |
| waiting_for_n810 | nope on loading http://khertan.net/ | 13:41 |
| waiting_for_n810 | :p | 13:41 |
| waiting_for_n810 | ahh btw | 13:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just buy an N800 for super cheap, then. :P | 13:41 |
| *** waiting_for_n810 is now known as VimS|gettingN800 | 13:41 | |
| * VimS|gettingN800 points at his new nick ;) | 13:41 | |
| timelyx | ok, page loaded | 13:42 |
| Khertan_TheReal | on khertan.net ? | 13:42 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | mhm | 13:42 |
| Khertan_TheReal | i ve checked domain and dns ok | 13:42 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | yeah microb on 770 sucks with xhtml | 13:42 |
| timelyx | buy 2 n800s | 13:42 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | but im tryin opera now | 13:42 |
| Khertan_TheReal | i ll come back in 10 min ... | 13:42 |
| Khertan_TheReal | (my boss ... pfff) | 13:42 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | NO!! 1 n800 + navi + 2x 8gb SD-card ;P | 13:42 |
| timelyx | make one a bthid for the other | 13:42 |
| Khertan_TheReal | you could post the test on 770 on the chan ... i'll read the log :) | 13:43 |
| Khertan_TheReal | thanks | 13:43 |
| timelyx | unable to install | 13:43 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | k | 13:43 |
| timelyx | requires python2.5, 2.5-hildon, 2.5-gtk2 | 13:43 |
| Khertan_TheReal | yes ... but s it s pymaemo | 13:43 |
| dpb_ | Oh yeah, need to buy a memory card for the N810 too.. so it will cost more than 99 euros.. *sigh* | 13:43 |
| timelyx | how do i get that? | 13:43 |
| Khertan_TheReal | and it should be available on 770, isn't it ? | 13:43 |
| timelyx | pretend i've never met pymaemo? | 13:43 |
| timelyx | oh wait, i've never met pymaemo | 13:44 |
| Khertan_TheReal | lol | 13:44 |
| dpb_ | heh | 13:44 |
| timelyx | pymaemo no packages found | 13:45 |
| * VimS|gettingN800 slaps dpb_ with an n810 discount-code from maemo.org | 13:45 | |
| timelyx | if you want me to do something | 13:45 |
| timelyx | it needs to be much more idiot proof | 13:45 |
| dpb_ | VimS|gettingN800 :) | 13:45 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | 429€ on amazon.de | 13:45 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | :( | 13:46 |
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| rocco | how possible is it to get the n800 to plug into a rj45 socket? | 13:49 |
| * czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up | 13:49 | |
| rocco | i mean through a usb->rj45 adapter | 13:50 |
| * VimS|gettingN800 has no idea | 13:50 | |
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| rocco | presumably I can load a custom kernel module to control it? | 13:50 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | czr: what's up ? | 13:51 |
| czr | VimS|gettingN800? Do I know you? :-) | 13:51 |
| czr | "same old". | 13:51 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | i guess not | 13:51 |
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| VimS|gettingN800 | * czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up <- just wanted to know why :) | 13:51 |
| inz | czr, "everyone knows the monkey..." | 13:51 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | Khertan: PyGTKEditor seems to work fine on my Nokia 770 with OS2006 and Phyton 2.5 installed | 13:53 |
| czr | inz, I know too many of them, makes it difficult to differentiate :-) | 13:54 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | but i dunno python so i can't code anything with it ;) | 13:54 |
| czr | VimS|gettingN800, ah. I will explain then. I got a long email with a lot of issues to fix in the training material that I'm working on. Some of the issues were less than clear. Hence the slight .. blueness. | 13:55 |
| inz | czr, at least you got _some_ feedback ;) | 13:55 |
| czr | the ironic part of course is that all of the issues have existed in the material for 2 years now. | 13:55 |
| czr | inz, indeed :-) | 13:55 |
| * czr should be happy | 13:55 | |
| czr | but all I can think of is the "important motivational comic strip" :-) | 13:55 |
| Khertan_TheReal | re | 13:56 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | o_O | 13:56 |
| Khertan_TheReal | timelyx > so for pymaemo on 770 i ll look where u can download it | 13:56 |
| * VimS|gettingN800 deinstalls pyGTKEditor | 13:56 | |
| timelE61i | Send a msg to timelyx | 13:57 |
| czr | "important motivational comic strip" : http://matin.maapallo.org/site.pl/selain/?c=dilbert&i=2258 | 13:57 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | timelyx > do u have the extra repository ? | 13:57 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | http://www.gronmayer.com/it/ <- very good repository-list | 13:58 |
| Khertan_TheReal | VimS|gettingN800 > thanks for your test ... so i can add it to the maemo.org/downloads site | 13:58 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | jepp but don't forget i've got phyton 2.5 package installed ;) | 13:59 |
| timelE61i | Dunno | 13:59 |
| Khertan_TheReal | VimS|gettingN800 > yes but's if you have the extra repository it should install it so :) | 14:00 |
| VimS|gettingN800 | k | 14:00 |
| *** VimS|gettingN800 is now known as VimS | 14:01 | |
| Khertan_TheReal | someone use gpesummary on the beta n800 OS2008 ? my tablett reboot 2 time this morning with only gpesummary as applet and no application loaded | 14:01 |
| Khertan_TheReal | i don't know if there is a link ... | 14:02 |
| Don^ | hmm | 14:05 |
| Khertan_TheReal | pffff it s boring to enter informations for each itos all time ! | 14:05 |
| Don^ | damn. i need to buy another n800. | 14:05 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | miam miam time :) | 14:06 |
| Khertan_TheReal | see u later | 14:06 |
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| Don^ | hmm | 14:12 |
| Don^ | wondering | 14:12 |
| Don^ | if there a possibility to get a nice clean install files for the mmc somewhere? | 14:12 |
| Don^ | since i understood that it would be possible to boot the device from mmc? | 14:13 |
| astro76 | Don^, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ | 14:13 |
| pupnik | there is howto for the transferring of filesystem to-on mmc | 14:13 |
| lardman | czr: I tried your suggestion to separate the declaration of the fd_set variables, still segfaults | 14:13 |
| czr | lardman, what about using fd+1 for first param of select? | 14:14 |
| pupnik | if is wanting the clean filesystem having then flashing-re the OS before multiboot | 14:14 |
| czr | and yeah, the separate thing shouldn't really affect anything | 14:14 |
| pupnik | multiboot? | 14:14 |
| _Monkey | i think multiboot is "LILO supreme being - 5th element - protect *you*" http://maemo.org/community/wiki/HowTo_EASILY_Partition_your_MMC_card | 14:14 |
| pupnik | hrm is not complete howto | 14:14 |
| czr | hrm = hello? read manual? | 14:14 |
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| pupnik | :) | 14:14 |
| Don^ | pupnik: yep. the problem is that my device is not booting ;) was wondering if i can get it booting from mmc /wo a working system on hand at the moment. | 14:15 |
| Don^ | :D | 14:15 |
| pupnik | Nokia is Electronic, supersonic. | 14:15 |
| Don^ | since re-flashing is not working... | 14:15 |
| Don^ | or flashing in general | 14:15 |
| vikramb11 | anybody hacked maemo connectivity ... | 14:15 |
| czr | pupnik, do the locomotive? | 14:15 |
| pupnik | oh that's not good. | 14:15 |
| vikramb11 | i mean the libconic / icd etc ,... | 14:16 |
| Don^ | pupnik: aye. "To flash the bootloader, you have to supply the X-Loader image | 14:16 |
| Don^ | " | 14:16 |
| Don^ | and trying to flash just the bootloader Flashing bootloader... Sending request 0x50 failed! Unable to get error strings: Connection timed out | 14:16 |
| Don^ | so i'm pretty fecked now i guess. | 14:16 |
| Don^ | :D | 14:16 |
| vikramb11 | want to know whether maemo has used "gnome network manager" ?? | 14:16 |
| inz | What is gnome network manager? | 14:17 |
| czr | vikramb11, no | 14:17 |
| czr | inz, the ultimate evil in network damagement | 14:17 |
| czr | vikramb11, maemo has it's own connectivity "system" | 14:18 |
| inz | czr, yeah, I just though NetworkManager was a cross DE freedesktop.org project, but remembered wrongly | 14:18 |
| czr | I guess the KDE people don't want to accept crap even if it comes via fd.o ;-) | 14:18 |
| * czr hides & runs | 14:18 | |
| czr | smoke and then back to work. /me puts on the "meh"-cap. | 14:19 |
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| pupnik | sorry Don^ you have n800 right | 14:20 |
| lardman | czr: /me hides head in shame, may well be due to my poor error checking in fact | 14:21 |
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| pupnik | czr helped lardman wif somethin? | 14:22 |
| lardman | fd_set | 14:22 |
| * pupnik watches like a cat looking at PC assembly | 14:22 | |
| alterego | cat's do that? | 14:22 |
| pupnik | cats are funny :) | 14:23 |
| pupnik | i have pic | 14:23 |
| alterego | Urgh .. | 14:23 |
| * alterego stares at his workstation machine blankly as he decides where to re-enter his current work project. | 14:24 | |
| alterego | I've been dreaming about coding again recently (used to happen a few years ago), it's a pain coding something, then waking up and having to do it again. | 14:26 |
| zerojay | lol | 14:26 |
| lardman | hmm, I can't get a term any more. I get "stdin: is not a tty" over ssh, and the built-in term fails too | 14:27 |
| alterego | Set "TERM" to vt100 or something. | 14:27 |
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| czr | lardman, ah, you found it? cool. | 14:27 |
| lardman | alterego: no, it's just stopped working | 14:27 |
| czr | pupnik, hard to believe, isn't it? :-) | 14:28 |
| alterego | I must have missed something because I don't know what you're doing ;) | 14:28 |
| unique311 | whats the location of the display configuration file for os2008? | 14:28 |
| lardman | czr: I'd forgotten to error check opening the dsp task, which fails more often than not | 14:28 |
| alterego | unique311, display configuration file? | 14:28 |
| czr | lardman, ah. "oops" :-) | 14:28 |
| unique311 | like a xorg.conf | 14:28 |
| czr | "no one will ever need to check the result of this malloc/open/write/read" :-) | 14:28 |
| lardman | czr: problem with using someone else's code, as mine always has a check, etc. | 14:29 |
| czr | although checking for malloc errors is quite futile in most cases | 14:29 |
| * czr nods | 14:29 | |
| lardman | right, reboot has solved the tty issue | 14:29 |
| alterego | unique311, I don't believe there is one. | 14:30 |
| unique311 | So how is the display configured? | 14:30 |
| czr | timelyx, someone else complained about the docs opening in separate windows too :-) | 14:31 |
| czr | timelyx, which means that I'm able to get rid of that crap finally ;-) | 14:31 |
| lardman | crap, killed it again | 14:31 |
| lardman | looks like it doesn't like my dsp_dld -p with the madmp3dec.o task ready to load | 14:32 |
| czr | lardman, is the .o task going to the dsp? | 14:32 |
| czr | also, is it something you've cooked up, or just using something that already exists? | 14:32 |
| czr | (i.e., source or closed?) | 14:33 |
| alterego | unique311, there's a special omap X server. Who knows :P | 14:33 |
| czr | alterego, if it's kdrive based, then the config is for build-time only. normally kdrives don't have runtime conf files. | 14:33 |
| alterego | unique311, check out 'Xomap --help' | 14:33 |
| lardman | czr: yes .o to dsp, something I was sent and am modifying to get it to work, open source | 14:33 |
| unique311 | thanks. | 14:33 |
| czr | lardman, cool. | 14:33 |
| alterego | Cool, I can make my display monochrome. | 14:34 |
| czr | lardman, what do you use to build it? | 14:34 |
| Spakman_ | anyone else hit a problem on OS2008 where pressing the centre button doesn't seem to work when you try to unlock? | 14:34 |
| czr | alterego, if you step on it, you can go a step further and make it unchrome :-) | 14:34 |
| alterego | Hah | 14:34 |
| vikramb11 | czr: thanks ! any one place to get all connectivity related source tar ball ! | 14:34 |
| czr | or nonochrome | 14:34 |
| alterego | Spakman_, yes, that is a known bug. | 14:34 |
| alterego | Spakman_, you'll need to take the battery out and turn the device on again. | 14:34 |
| czr | vikramb11, start by reading the 4.0 sdk how-tos on connectivity first | 14:34 |
| Spakman_ | ta alterego, I won't bother filing it | 14:35 |
| lardman | czr: Ti Linux toolchain | 14:35 |
| czr | vikramb11, on maemo.org -> documentation -> maemo 4.0 -> howtos -> and so on. there's a long list of docs there. | 14:35 |
| Spakman_ | alterego: BTW, spotted your .install file for Ruby, nice one! | 14:35 |
| czr | lardman, ah. thought so. | 14:35 |
| alterego | Spakman_, thanks :) | 14:35 |
| czr | lardman, is it any good? | 14:35 |
| vikramb11 | czr yea i saw and checked 2.x 3.x and 4.x | 14:35 |
| pupnik | hrmph, still Nov 28 over here | 14:36 |
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| vikramb11 | czr there is a arch diagram on 2.x for connectivity ..but missing in later versions... is that still hold good ? | 14:36 |
| czr | vikramb11, I have no idea. most of the 4.0 stuff that I've looked through is not really 4.0 pure either :-) | 14:36 |
| lardman | czr: It produces code :) | 14:36 |
| czr | vikramb11, if you find bugs / something missing in the howtos, file a bug report (see the "help improve this page" link at the bottom of each howto) | 14:37 |
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| czr | lardman, "fair enough" :-) | 14:37 |
| lardman | czr: Or do you mean the mp3 decoder? In which case I don't know as it doesn't seem to do anything (yet) | 14:37 |
| czr | lardman, neh, you pretty much got the gist of what I meant | 14:37 |
| Segnale007 | hi guys | 14:37 |
| vikramb11 | czr ok. So what all parts of connectivity module are open . i felt that icd (daemon) is proprietary ? | 14:38 |
| lardman | well it just blocks at the select() call now, so looks like the DSP isn't asking for data | 14:39 |
| czr | vikramb11, I have no idea, haven't gone that way. | 14:39 |
| Spakman_ | alterego: is there anything special I need to do to package up a ruby-maemo program? | 14:39 |
| Spakman_ | (I guess not) | 14:39 |
| czr | Spakman_, ask alterego | 14:39 |
| czr | ah, sry, :-) | 14:39 |
| * czr should get replacement eyes | 14:39 | |
| vikramb11 | czr ok no probs. | 14:39 |
| Spakman_ | czr: :) | 14:39 |
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| Don^ | pupnik: yup. i have n800. | 14:49 |
| pupnik | you flashing with out power cable plugged-in, and holding the home button while powerup? | 14:49 |
| pupnik | i think that was the procedure | 14:50 |
| Spakman_ | how can I run a command automatically on boot? | 14:50 |
| pupnik | bootscripts? | 14:51 |
| Don^ | pupnik: yup. i flashed it ok, but it fails always in the same step. | 14:52 |
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| pupnik | _Monkey: bootscripts are a way to run stuff when your Tablet boots, some xamples here: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~jimc/nokia770/hacking.html | 14:54 |
| _Monkey | OK, pupnik. | 14:54 |
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| pupnik | Spakman_: try that page | 14:54 |
| vikramb11 | any idea is the url is latest/outdated : https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/ | 14:54 |
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| Don^ | damn. I'll just get a new device. :D | 14:55 |
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| alterego | Strange how the most interesting emails end in my junk folder :/ | 15:30 |
| dpb_ | Change your junk folder to be the default one? :P | 15:30 |
| _Monkey | dpb_: that doesn't look right | 15:30 |
| alterego | Heh | 15:30 |
| * dpb_ kicks _Monkey | 15:30 | |
| alterego | Heh, hotmail is using some weird default .NET error page. | 15:31 |
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| alterego | Anyone purchased those "scratch proof" display protectors? | 16:13 |
| alterego | Are they worth the price? I'm half tempted just to buy a large sheet and make my own .. | 16:14 |
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| alterego | At least then I can make them slightly bigger so the edges are under the front facia. | 16:14 |
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| lardman | alterego: I just go without and don't use it on the beach | 16:19 |
| lardman | though in this country there's more chance of it getting wet from the rain, then lost in the mud on the beach than getting sand in it | 16:20 |
| lardman | on it | 16:20 |
| Mikho | Would somebody know a c library I could use to calculate checksums of byte strings? | 16:22 |
| lardman | any particular checksum? | 16:22 |
| Mikho | almost any would do | 16:23 |
| lardman | you may as well write your own, they are quite small | 16:23 |
| lardman | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check would be a start to look for a piece of code | 16:23 |
| czr | Mikho, for what purpose btw? | 16:24 |
| lardman | by write your own I meant write a function/use a function, rather than look for a library. I wasn't suggesting making up your own one :) | 16:24 |
| czr | maybe I can recommend something | 16:24 |
| Mikho | for checking if arbitrarily long byte streams are likely to be equal | 16:25 |
| Mikho | not for error detection | 16:26 |
| czr | hmm. what kind of byte streams? | 16:26 |
| czr | i.e., you know anything about their content before hand? text /binary? | 16:26 |
| fysa | anyone here testing modest? | 16:27 |
| czr | what you're looking for is a hashing algorithm really (non-cryptographic probably) | 16:27 |
| Mikho | no | 16:27 |
| Mikho | hmm | 16:27 |
| czr | Mikho, look into "fast hashing functions" in wikipedia. there's a lot of them | 16:27 |
| fysa | yes, that's really the only way. | 16:28 |
| Mikho | ok, I'll look into that. Thanks | 16:28 |
| czr | Mikho, what is the purpose of testing for this likelyness btw? | 16:28 |
| czr | "maybe I can help" :-) | 16:28 |
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| fysa | XOR could work | 16:29 |
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| Mikho | it's for detecting whether there have been modifications to two data entities that are supposed to be equal | 16:30 |
| alterego | lardman, I'm more scared of it being scratched by the stylus. The current screen protector is, well, f*cked :) | 16:31 |
| Mikho | like, one might get the same data from more than one sources, and the program should detect if one is modified | 16:31 |
| fysa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Md5sum | 16:31 |
| fysa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cksum | 16:32 |
| Mikho | hmm | 16:32 |
| lardman | alterego: you mean the thing that came on it? | 16:32 |
| fysa | The cksum command can be used to compare a suspect file copied or communicated over noisy transmission lines against an exact copy of a trusted file. | 16:33 |
| alterego | lardman, yeah. It's starting to peel on one edge a bit too much and there's a bubble too .. | 16:33 |
| lardman | alterego: I've never used one on any of my devices, if I feel the stylus scratching I stop and wipe it. I don't have any issues seeing the screen through my scratch marks ;) | 16:33 |
| fysa | it doesn't matter which hashing mechanism you use. | 16:33 |
| alterego | lardman, I don't either. I just want it to stay in good nik ;) | 16:33 |
| Mikho | ok, I think I'll manage with these | 16:33 |
| fysa | you are essentially representing an arbitrarily long string of data with 16, 32, 64 or 256 characters. | 16:34 |
| alterego | Mikho, when you say stream are you using TCP/IP ? | 16:34 |
| alterego | Because TCP/IP has checksums embedded into it for that exact reason .. | 16:34 |
| fysa | any change to that string of data will result in the representation being altered. | 16:34 |
| fysa | so just pick whichever is fastest in your situation. | 16:35 |
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| fysa | sounds like he's toying with P2P concepts | 16:36 |
| Mikho | yes, i know | 16:36 |
| alterego | Hmm. Maybe look into how bittorrent does it them. | 16:36 |
| fysa | bittorrent uses SHA | 16:36 |
| alterego | They have hashes (SHA?) for complete file and also for blocks. | 16:36 |
| Mikho | it's not about transmission errors but differences in data made by users | 16:36 |
| fysa | which is about twice as slow as MDA, which itself is about twice as slow as XOR64 | 16:37 |
| Mikho | timestamp is really not good enough | 16:37 |
| fysa | sorry, md5 | 16:37 |
| alterego | Well, are you trying to find the differences or just want to know if there are differences. | 16:37 |
| Mikho | just to know if there are differences | 16:37 |
| fysa | unless you have some rsync/diff-type functions on both sides, you won't be able to easily extraopolate what those differences are. | 16:38 |
| alterego | Mikho, then send a hash with each block of data. | 16:38 |
| fysa | and no, timestamp is never good enough for such a thing. | 16:38 |
| Mikho | that's what I'm planning to do :) | 16:39 |
| lardman | I guess it depends on how sure you want to be that the records are the same, is the probability of different data producing same hash inversely proportional to the time taken to calculate the hash? | 16:39 |
| czr | Mikho, what kind of protections are you planning against? | 16:39 |
| czr | or "modifications" | 16:39 |
| fysa | right. the complexity of your hash algorithm is a trade-off between speed and accuracy into oblivion. | 16:39 |
| Mikho | one server has one data and another might have some other data about the same subject | 16:39 |
| czr | if the data of same size on both? | 16:40 |
| fysa | why not just use rsync? | 16:40 |
| alterego | svn ftw! | 16:40 |
| czr | also, does data change completely when it changes, or partially? and do you care? (ie, how large is each data) | 16:40 |
| Mikho | if the data is the same, fine, but if it's the same, the program should have some way of telling the user it has several versions of the data | 16:41 |
| czr | use sha1 | 16:41 |
| timeless | help | 16:41 |
| timeless | anyone here familiar w/ videoForLinux? | 16:41 |
| Mikho | *if it's different, the program blabla | 16:41 |
| lardman | Mikho: why would the data be the same? | 16:42 |
| alterego | timeless, partially. V4L is it's acronym ;) | 16:42 |
| czr | Mikho, for each data, store (size-of-data, md5-of-data-content, version-id/timestamp-when-added, data) | 16:42 |
| alterego | timeless, I've read the kernel text on the subject too. | 16:42 |
| czr | in order to compare data entries, you start with size and md5 | 16:42 |
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| timeless | maemo uses it, right? | 16:42 |
| Mikho | It'd be nice if there was a ready-made lib I could use | 16:42 |
| czr | in order to display information about version, you use the version-id | 16:42 |
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| pupnik | HAY GUYS! (crazy dog picture) Howz it goin!?!? | 16:43 |
| * pupnik runs around | 16:43 | |
| sKaBoy | timeless, yes (if i remember right) | 16:43 |
| Mikho | lardman, the data is supposed to be the same. It might not be due to sync problems etc | 16:43 |
| czr | Mikho, interestingly enough I'm working on almost the same problem. only I have > 100M hashes :-) | 16:43 |
| Mikho | :) | 16:44 |
| alterego | timeless, maemo uses it for the Radio in the N800 and for video in the N8X0's | 16:44 |
| lardman | czr, Mikho: why not simply add a changed-since-last-sync flag, forget the md5sum for each record, then just check (e.g. md5sum) those that are flagged when the sync occurs? | 16:44 |
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| Mikho | because timestamps are unreliable | 16:45 |
| czr | lardman, I'm just throwing ideas, the specification is not complete enough for me to give sane suggestions :-) | 16:45 |
| lardman | not a time stamp, a I-have-changed flag | 16:45 |
| alterego | Depends on the time stamp and who controls that data. | 16:45 |
| lardman | well yes, but if the timestamp is inaccurate, the md5sum won't tell you which data to use | 16:45 |
| lardman | still won't | 16:46 |
| czr | lardman, also, if you have a multiple-master situation, then that becomes kind of difficult in conflicts :-) | 16:46 |
| lardman | czr: yes, that is true | 16:46 |
| czr | lardman, did you see my original suggestion? one with 4 elements | 16:46 |
| czr | (size-of-data, md5-of-content, version-id, data) | 16:46 |
| alterego | timeless, are you looking at webcam support in Flash? | 16:46 |
| mouta | Hi, I've followed the maemo_4-0_tutorial. Everything seems to work except some warnings and missing files. How can I make it happy ? (Plugin desktop file not found, keybindings.rc, ui-window-*.wav) | 16:46 |
| lardman | czr: yes, I was just thinking of removing the md5sum overhead from each record, move that to the syncing event, but depends on how many records are added vs sync'd I suppose | 16:47 |
| alterego | mouta, those are normal. Just ignore them ;) | 16:47 |
| czr | lardman, you'd only need to do md5 if sizes are the same and version-id is not. | 16:47 |
| mouta | alterego, fine, thanks | 16:47 |
| alterego | mouta if it helps. Close your eyes before starting the desktop and when running a program ;) | 16:47 |
| czr | lardman, so the odds of that being required is quite small if done correctly | 16:47 |
| lardman | czr: ah okay, so version-id is like my "I've changed" flag | 16:47 |
| czr | smt like that yes | 16:48 |
| mouta | alterego, I'll put my head in the fridge | 16:48 |
| alterego | :) | 16:48 |
| alterego | czr, revision number maybe? | 16:48 |
| czr | I still don't understand the problem mikho is trying to solve, so I'll just leave it as "(semi)unique way of telling that this version of 'thing' is not the same as some other version of this same 'thing') | 16:48 |
| czr | depends on the scenario | 16:48 |
| lardman | :) | 16:48 |
| czr | for single-master a number is sufficient | 16:48 |
| alterego | I don't know the nature of how he expects this data to change. Whether it's iteration or just random (error tainted?) | 16:48 |
| czr | for multi-master not since the same data can change in two different locations at the same time | 16:49 |
| czr | but solving those problems is much more interesting than single-master scenarios :-) | 16:49 |
| alterego | Heh | 16:49 |
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| alterego | You could also have a tainted flag on the data when it's coming in so you know you _should_ check for data corruption/changes. | 16:50 |
| Mikho | Isn't it pretty simple actually? There's data, it's supposed to be the same, but it might not. Checksums can be calculated server-side and sent along with the data. The application then checks the two checksums and if they differ, it presents both sets of the data to the user | 16:50 |
| alterego | Mikho, sure. It can be that simple. When you say "presents both sets of the data to the user" do you mean display it? Or just say these things differ? | 16:51 |
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| alterego | And then, are you displaying changes or the whole file? Is the data binary or text? | 16:51 |
| Mikho | that's not in this problem area | 16:51 |
| Mikho | for now I'd just like to detect | 16:51 |
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| alterego | Well, if it's a stream. Then just generate an MD5 for each chunk. Ask the server for the MD5 for that chunk. It replies. Compare the checksums and you're done. | 16:52 |
| Mikho | yep. Already found the solution. I'll probably use md5 or sha1. But I haven't found a readymade lib yet | 16:53 |
| alterego | You also have the option of recording status and re-requesting the specific chunk that does not match. | 16:53 |
| alterego | Mikho, what language are you using? | 16:54 |
| lardman | is there a link into the OMAP accelerators anywhere? | 16:54 |
| Mikho | C/C++ | 16:54 |
| alterego | Mikho, it's all in OpenSSL I believe. | 16:54 |
| Mikho | in maemo2.2 | 16:54 |
| czr | the hash accel is not used imho | 16:55 |
| czr | or crypto accels | 16:55 |
| lardman | czr: agreed, shame | 16:55 |
| alterego | hash accel? | 16:55 |
| _Monkey | hmmm... hash accel is not used imho | 16:55 |
| czr | alterego, there's support for some crypto & hash algos on omap | 16:56 |
| alterego | czr, ah. That's what I thought you meant. Neat. | 16:56 |
| czr | but it's not used | 16:56 |
| alterego | czr, is that not utilised in the kernel? | 16:56 |
| czr | at least it wasn't when I last checked (1.0/770) | 16:56 |
| czr | no | 16:56 |
| czr | kernel doesn't expose hash/crypto to userspace anyway | 16:56 |
| alterego | Hmm .. I thought the kernel had support for MD5, SHA1 ... | 16:56 |
| czr | so libcrypto couldn't use it even if kernel supported | 16:56 |
| czr | in software yes. and for VIA padlock | 16:57 |
| alterego | Maybe write an OMAP module then .. | 16:57 |
| czr | I think the issue was in the way that dma was mapped on the omap | 16:57 |
| alterego | Hm | 16:57 |
| czr | on via padlock it was easy as it was an instruction set extension | 16:57 |
| czr | on omap not | 16:57 |
| czr | it's a separate "cpu" | 16:57 |
| alterego | Well, I'm gonna have a shower and head out. Later folks. | 16:58 |
| czr | but as said, I'm not 100% about the situation now. checked that ages ago | 16:58 |
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| lardman | Another reason to look in the OMAP 2420 Technical Reference Manual | 16:59 |
| lardman | ...if it were available to mere mortals | 16:59 |
| pupnik | :/ | 17:00 |
| czr | lardman, getting that accel available to user space is going to be difficult | 17:00 |
| czr | kernel might be doable, but that would be close to useless | 17:00 |
| czr | since the kernel crypto layer is not really used. only kernel-side ipsec might benefit | 17:00 |
| czr | and since it's asynchronous, I doubt that it would help much | 17:01 |
| lardman | write your own lib to use it | 17:02 |
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| mouta | I'd like to render text as overlay (not in a (bordered) window) with pango, what should I read ? | 17:03 |
| lardman | does the X1 licence require modifications to be made available in source form? | 17:04 |
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| lardman | s/X1/X11 | 17:04 |
| czr | lardman, ever tried to access dma-based engines directly from userspace? :-) | 17:05 |
| lardman | I'm looking at it atm | 17:05 |
| lardman | for the powervr | 17:05 |
| czr | ah. heh then :-) | 17:06 |
| lardman | but no, this is a learning experience :) | 17:06 |
| czr | when you need testing, drop me a note ;-) | 17:06 |
| lardman | czr: will do | 17:06 |
| * czr runs to get food and execute nap-time-sequence | 17:06 | |
| lardman | c ya | 17:07 |
| * lardman goes to do some shopping | 17:07 | |
| dpb_ | Hmm, a nap would be nice.. | 17:07 |
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| Tak | X11 license is like BSD license | 17:07 |
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| pupnik | xnap | 17:12 |
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| fysa | anyone here building modest? | 17:27 |
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| Spakman_ | fysa: that's my plan for tonight :) | 17:34 |
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| sKaBoy | fysa, there are deb packages somewhere | 17:36 |
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| rocco | what's to stop us plugging a usb keyboard into the n800? | 17:36 |
| rocco | as long as we have the kernel module? | 17:36 |
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| Tak | lack of usb host mode? | 17:37 |
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| rocco | how can we do usb networking ? | 17:37 |
| Spakman_ | sKaBoy: any idea where? | 17:37 |
| _Monkey | any idea is the url is latest/outdated : https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/ | 17:37 |
| sKaBoy | fysa, http://modest.garage.maemo.org/repos/modest-chinook.install (don't know if it's official, a beta or something.. found it in google some days ago) | 17:37 |
| rocco | I don't know a lot about usb to be honest? | 17:37 |
| rocco | is it cos it'd be unpowered? | 17:38 |
| lophyte | rocco, there's a usb networking howto on the maemo wiki | 17:38 |
| rocco | i know | 17:38 |
| rocco | what I'm saying is, how is usb networking different to a usb keyboard? | 17:38 |
| Tak | heh, I think most things for chinook are pretty beta right now | 17:39 |
| lophyte | because usb networking doesn't require the device to be in host mode | 17:39 |
| lophyte | it works like a USB networking peripheral | 17:39 |
| rocco | is that a hardware thing? | 17:39 |
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| lophyte | you have to install a custom kernel to enable usb host mode | 17:39 |
| rocco | cool | 17:39 |
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| rocco | I was going to have a go with that | 17:40 |
| sKaBoy | rocco, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.maemo.user/7826 | 17:40 |
| fysa | sKaBoy: oo, sanks | 17:40 |
| lophyte | I haven't tested it yet but I've heard people say it works great | 17:40 |
| lophyte | you just need to hack a cable for it | 17:40 |
| Spakman_ | sKaBoy: thanks a lot, installing Modest now :) | 17:40 |
| rocco | cool | 17:40 |
| rocco | COOL | 17:40 |
| rocco | is that just on os2008? | 17:40 |
| sKaBoy | fysa, Spakman_, it works fine for me :) report bugs if you find them! i think it's still beta! | 17:41 |
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| rocco | will that work on 2007 I wonder? | 17:42 |
| sKaBoy | rocco, with 2007 you need to use another kernel.. check maemo-user or maemo-devel archives, there were a lot of threads about usb host mode | 17:42 |
| rocco | thanks sKaBoy | 17:42 |
| rocco | oh i so can't wait for 2008 now | 17:42 |
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| alterego | Why don't you just install the beta? | 17:43 |
| Spakman_ | sKaBoy: I will do, cheers | 17:44 |
| rocco | alterego, I'm scared to | 17:45 |
| rocco | lots of my lovely apps might break | 17:45 |
| alterego | 2008 doesn't break any apps./ | 17:45 |
| rocco | do settings import/export ok from 07 to 08? | 17:45 |
| rocco | like wireless settings? | 17:45 |
| alterego | Dunno, I don't care much for settings. | 17:46 |
| rocco | alterego, no it just deletes them all | 17:46 |
| murrayc_ | If you backup your settings it will probably restore them. | 17:46 |
| alterego | You could always make a complete backup. Attempt to migrate. If you don't like it then revert back to the backup. | 17:46 |
| rocco | you can do that? | 17:46 |
| rocco | how? | 17:47 |
| alterego | Several ways come to mind. | 17:47 |
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| alterego | Do you dual boot? | 17:47 |
| rocco | heheh.alas no | 17:47 |
| alterego | Hmm. | 17:47 |
| rocco | I didn't know how to | 17:47 |
| rocco | so I havn't ever done it | 17:47 |
| rocco | I know it's possible | 17:47 |
| alterego | Yeah, the instructions aren't really for the non technical minded. | 17:48 |
| alterego | Well, Linux novices I mean ;) | 17:48 |
| rocco | OI! | 17:48 |
| alterego | :) | 17:48 |
| rocco | i meant I havn't had a need to do it | 17:48 |
| rocco | (yet) | 17:48 |
| alterego | Well, during the dual boot process. You copy your current root filesystem to a partition on the SD card. That's probably the best backup to have ;) | 17:49 |
| rocco | so i need one card to dual boot onto | 17:49 |
| rocco | then the other to transfer everything onto | 17:49 |
| alterego | Yeah, I use a 2G card 1G for storage/swap and the other 1G for OS | 17:50 |
| rocco | ok | 17:50 |
| alterego | That's the internal card. | 17:50 |
| rocco | maybe I'll try dual booting tonight | 17:50 |
| rocco | tbph i don't have much on there | 17:50 |
| alterego | My external card is whatever happens to be in there. Generally a 4G with music or various SD cards that I use with my digital camera | 17:50 |
| rocco | maybe I'll just backup settings and migrate | 17:50 |
| rocco | is enabling root easy on os2008? | 17:50 |
| alterego | We need users to send us pestering emails to force us to update our software ;) | 17:51 |
| zoran | ah, you want angry users? | 17:51 |
| alterego | There seems to be a large lack of motivation in the application developers at the moment. Not much updating going on .. | 17:51 |
| alterego | Generally all you need is a re-compile .. | 17:51 |
| zoran | the hype is on multimedia this days | 17:52 |
| rocco | you've convinced me alterego | 17:52 |
| rocco | os2008 tonight | 17:52 |
| rocco | ;) | 17:52 |
| alterego | :) | 17:52 |
| rocco | can't wait for hostmode | 17:53 |
| alterego | You know. It's one of those things I keep meaning to play with but haven't bothered yet. I might look into that tonight :D | 17:53 |
| alterego | You've convinced me :) | 17:53 |
| alterego | It's certainly functionality I'd like to play with .. | 17:53 |
| rocco | i thought you were on about os2008 then | 17:54 |
| rocco | heheh | 17:54 |
| rocco | right back to work | 17:54 |
| rocco | thanks guys | 17:54 |
| alterego | See you | 17:54 |
| rocco | thanks especially to you alterego | 17:54 |
| alterego | Heh | 17:54 |
| rocco | oh just outta interest......bluetoothkeyboard vs usb keyboard....wrt power | 17:54 |
| alterego | BT keyboard has seperate batteries obviously. Probably last longer. It'll also make your device last longer. | 17:55 |
| rocco | ko | 17:55 |
| alterego | If you're plugged in most of the time. Then USB keyboards are dirt cheap. | 17:55 |
| rocco | so usb keyboard will drain more | 17:55 |
| rocco | yeh i guess so | 17:55 |
| alterego | Yes | 17:55 |
| rocco | thanks alterego | 17:55 |
| alterego | np | 17:55 |
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| rich_dy | I just got an n800, and was able to install XChat. The application installs correctly, but when it attempts to connect to any server, it will resolve the hostname correctly, but cannot make a connection -- it just ... sits there trying to connect. Is this a known issue? | 18:00 |
| pupnik | we need some whoop-dy in tabletland | 18:01 |
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| pupnik | some wow kickin mental detergent | 18:01 |
| rghosh | sounds questionable | 18:02 |
| zoran | rich_dy, irssi could be fine | 18:02 |
| rich_dy | zoran: well, when I attempt to connect to IRC via the pidgin plugin, I also get the same problem -- just hangs on the connection. Is there some library I might be missing? I don't have any other net connection issues...I'm able to use other internet clients just fine, like the web browser and the other gaim plugins | 18:04 |
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| nooknook | hmm pidgin works fine for me on irc on my 810 | 18:04 |
| zoran | if I recall, xchat is irc client; pidgin goes as icq/etc | 18:04 |
| nooknook | but i can't install xchat complains about missing libs | 18:05 |
| nooknook | at leas via app manager | 18:05 |
| alterego | rich_dy, sounds like firewall | 18:05 |
| alterego | zoran, pidgin has an IRC plugin as well. | 18:05 |
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| zoran | k | 18:05 |
| alterego | I actually use Pidgin over xchat because I don't like xchat on the device. | 18:06 |
| rich_dy | alterego: i'll try on another network, but my other hosts on the network are able to connect to IRC just fine | 18:06 |
| alterego | But I don't usually IRC from it. | 18:06 |
| alterego | rich_dy, well. It's unlikely that they would both not work without some underlying network problem. | 18:07 |
| rich_dy | right. i'll float around downtown at lunch and try some other open networks to see if it's an issue with my router | 18:07 |
| alterego | There are several OAP's in my area that block SSH O_O | 18:08 |
| alterego | I find that infuriating. | 18:08 |
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| db48x | alterego: wow, that would suck | 18:09 |
| alterego | Yeah | 18:09 |
| db48x | "It's a trap!" maybe? | 18:09 |
| alterego | It continually does. | 18:09 |
| alterego | It's amusing because this place in particular attracts sysadmin and coder types. | 18:10 |
| alterego | It's a big geek haven. | 18:10 |
| db48x | good place to troll for passwords then | 18:10 |
| alterego | That would be unethical :P | 18:10 |
| alterego | I have enough of my own passwords anyway :P | 18:10 |
| db48x | so is blocking ssh, imho | 18:10 |
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| zoran | who in a state of sane would surf that ap? | 18:10 |
| alterego | Well, the alt ssh port isn't blocked. | 18:11 |
| alterego | So I can do that. | 18:11 |
| zoran | just 22? | 18:11 |
| alterego | There are probably more ports blocked but that's the only one that effects me. | 18:11 |
| zoran | application proxy? | 18:12 |
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| alterego | Anyhow, so I've moved from that cafe to a bar that has an encrypted OAP. | 18:12 |
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| alterego | They don't appear to block any ports so I'm happy :) | 18:12 |
| alterego | Unfortunately trading good tea for beer. | 18:13 |
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| alterego | This town is missing a place that has free IA and _good_ coffee. | 18:13 |
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| alterego | There are good coffee places. Just no fscking internet. | 18:14 |
| alterego | And data plans in the UK are amazingly horrible. | 18:14 |
| lopz | hola | 18:14 |
| Mikho | why are they horrible? | 18:14 |
| alterego | Expensive. | 18:15 |
| alterego | If they were competitive with cable prices. Say, £15 extra a month. I'd use it all the time. | 18:16 |
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| alterego | As it happens I get charged about £1 a megabyte. So it's not worth using it when you're never _that_ far away from an OAP. | 18:17 |
| gla55_ | paying per mbyte makes gprs/3g essentially useless for most things except very few low-data things | 18:18 |
| alterego | Yeah | 18:18 |
| alterego | I'd concievably use it for always on IM availability. But I've not as of yet. | 18:18 |
| pupnik | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkx18kruRJs PowerVR Mbx openGL demo #1 | 18:19 |
| hexa | here they charge 35cent / kilobyte so 51$ /MB lol | 18:19 |
| hexa | er.. 5 cent / k | 18:19 |
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| gla55_ | what good is 3g if it's going to cost you 2.4£ a minute to use it's potential | 18:19 |
| alterego | hexa, yeah. I heard that America was worse .. | 18:19 |
| hexa | and they advertise video conferencing application hahaha | 18:19 |
| alterego | I didn't realise it was _that_ bad .. O_O | 18:19 |
| lardman | pupnik: nice isn't it :) | 18:19 |
| gla55_ | i got 9.9e / 384kbit/s / month and i'm loving it | 18:19 |
| alterego | gla55_, where do you live? | 18:20 |
| hexa | A friend of mine works at a canadian cell company , telephone support , one guy browsed for 2 days and got a 15 000$ invoice | 18:20 |
| gla55_ | alterego: finland.. | 18:20 |
| pupnik | hahaha | 18:20 |
| alterego | Heh | 18:20 |
| _Monkey | well, finland is closed in July due to holidays. Please come back later ;) | 18:20 |
| alterego | gla55_, figures :P | 18:20 |
| alterego | gla55_, I so want to move out there :) | 18:20 |
| gla55_ | alterego: wait untill the winter is over | 18:21 |
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| alterego | Heh | 18:21 |
| alterego | I was thinking of visiting in January. Suss out whether I could get work there or not. | 18:21 |
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| pumpkingod | hi, anyone know where I can find sendmail for maemo, or do I have to compile it myself? | 18:23 |
| alterego | pumpkingod, you'll probably have to compile it yourself. | 18:23 |
| pumpkingod | mmkay | 18:23 |
| pumpkingod | thanks :) | 18:23 |
| alterego | pumpkingod, make a package too and throw it into extras ;) | 18:23 |
| Jaffa | s/extras/extras-devel/ | 18:24 |
| alterego | Yah | 18:24 |
| alterego | That too. | 18:24 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | We need a server for maemo.org ... | 18:25 |
| Khertan_TheReal | http://maemo.org/downloads/ | 18:25 |
| Khertan_TheReal | memcache handler: Failed to connect to localhost:11211. | 18:25 |
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| Khertan_TheReal | I dream about a small repository with a html front end, where user can add their package only by uploading a .deb and after a validation, their package appear magically in the repository ... | 18:29 |
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| * alterego slaps Khertan_TheReal out of his dream land. | 18:34 | |
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| nooknook | Any good QA apps for maemo. When i worked on the palm we had pose with Gremlins that just beat the hell out of your app, simulating user usage. Great for exposing bugs. | 18:39 |
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| pupnik | nooknook: that's an interesting idea - maybe any generic linux/x11 based app could be modified to that purpose | 18:43 |
| alterego | Would be neat. | 18:43 |
| nooknook | Cool yeh, i'd consider writing one, it's incredibly useful and greatly increases general stability of apps. I think linux apps in general tend to be a bit flaky, a tool like that quickly exposes bugs. Perhaps i will, just starting on maemo dev i'll have to see what's available for doing such an app. | 18:45 |
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| alterego | I'm not sure how those kinds of things work. I'm only really used to writing functional and unit test suites :) | 18:48 |
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| nooknook | Yeh for your own for sure. It's just nice to have the other to beat the hell out of it and find things that got missed but would show up later under use. Also to find bugs in other apps where it's crashing but you can't consistenly reproduce it or some such. With the palm emulator you could reproduce the steps it took to generate the crash, and it's been a while but i think even drop into the deubber at that point. I might not be able to get the re | 18:55 |
| nooknook | production going initially, but i think i will start working on something that at least can do some ui bashing. Later try to work in being able to reproduce crashes. | 18:55 |
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| alterego | Cool | 18:56 |
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| |R | anyone having trouble getting pidgin on OS2008beta (n800) ? (complains about missing libgnutls13 and libgcrypt11?) | 18:58 |
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| alterego | |R, you're missing a repository. Don't ask me which one though .. | 18:58 |
| |R | hehe :) | 18:58 |
| alterego | Someone should get the author to fix his install file .. | 18:58 |
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| |R | http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/pidgin/ <- maybe this will fix it :) | 18:59 |
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| Jaffa | Khertan_TheReal: Is scp *really* that much of a hardship? My problems with extras have historically been the validation checks, not the actual mechanism of getting the deb file there. | 19:02 |
| |R | ah maemohackers was missing i think... | 19:03 |
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| alterego | Jaffa, I could figure out how to upload to extras-devel. So I gave up and setup my own repository .. | 19:06 |
| alterego | Jaffa, I thought it would be good anyway. As I plan on adding lots of packages (ruby extensions) for people. So it kind of seems worth while having my own ruby centric repository. IMO. | 19:06 |
| * Jaffa disagrees, if Debian and Ubuntu can cope with libperl-... and libruby-... why can't Maemo? | 19:07 | |
| Jaffa | upload to extras with dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html | 19:08 |
| Jaffa | upload to extras without dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html | 19:08 |
| Jaffa | _Monkey: upload to extras without dput? | 19:08 |
| _Monkey | rumour has it upload to extras without dput is http://osdir.com/ml/handhelds.maemo.user/2006-09/msg00160.html | 19:08 |
| Jaffa | Good _Monkey | 19:08 |
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| DanielLion | Morning | 19:09 |
| _Monkey | aloha | 19:09 |
| DanielLion | Testing out the n810 finally got mine.. LOVE it | 19:09 |
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| fysa | you upgrade from the n800? | 19:16 |
| alterego | DanielLion, fortunate 500? | 19:17 |
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| pupnik | the world is composed of 10 kinds of people: those who have an N810 and those who aren't on speaking terms with those who have a N810 | 19:21 |
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| DanielLion | Nopes | 19:22 |
| truent | i asked this question last night but maybe we got some new blood in here.. short of learning every facet of dbus.. does anyone know of a way to connect to a DUMMY type AP named 'DEFAULT' via the command line? | 19:22 |
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| DanielLion | i just wish i could get TTLS working for our wifi netowrk.. it never finds the CA cert. even if i put it in the cert manager in the control panel | 19:24 |
| DanielLion | at least the TTLS protocal is now in there | 19:25 |
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| |R | pupnik : haha 17 days, we're gonna make it ;) | 19:40 |
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| Jaffa | Bah, I'm on holiday next week - had hoped on using the GPS a little | 19:42 |
| * Jaffa can probably survive, though ;-) | 19:42 | |
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| alterego | Jaffa, I feel your pain :) | 19:44 |
| alterego | Jaffa, I'm just hoping for a neat Christmas present now ;) | 19:45 |
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| Sho_ | The device has appeared on amazon.de now (for 429€) ... still not on nokia.de though :-) | 19:49 |
| alterego | :/ | 19:49 |
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| truent | ok does anyone know of a good/easy dbus tutorial that would help me in my quest to change the access point im connected to via command line | 19:53 |
| pupnik | http://pupnik.de/CNN_Poll_07_11_28.png :D | 19:54 |
| Jaffa | alterego: I'm getting a new gadget bag next week for my birthday (reason for holiday) and no N810 to put in it :-/ | 19:54 |
| alterego | I could do with a new gadget bag. | 19:54 |
| alterego | (The mens handbag) :D | 19:55 |
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| Jaffa | http://www.tumi.com/backpacks_messengers/t_tech_flow/category_search/gear_bag/product_detail/index.cfm?modelid=87480 (in black, imported from the US by a colleague) | 19:55 |
| DanielLion | i find the slip case they gave was fine for the 810 being in my pocket | 19:55 |
| alterego | Pretty | 19:56 |
| alterego | Jaffa, magnetic? Is that safe? :D | 19:57 |
| * Jaffa 's a skinny chap and has phone/keys/wallet in pocket; also tend to carry around some painkillers/zomigtriptan, business cards etc. | 19:57 | |
| Jaffa | alterego: should be, it's a very soft magnet - but I've not put a device in to check yet :) | 19:57 |
| alterego | I was just kidding. I think LCD's are pretty safe with magnets as are SD cards etc. | 19:58 |
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| the-FoX | hello | 19:58 |
| pupnik | hmm, a purse would be funny | 19:59 |
| * pupnik looks at his samsonite bag | 19:59 | |
| Tak | DanielLion: yeah, I can't connect to our wifi either | 19:59 |
| pupnik | it *is* a purse! | 20:00 |
| Jaffa | alterego: indeed, humour recognised :) | 20:00 |
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| the-FoX | i try to get maemo-mobile mythtv running, but when connecting to the gms.py i get errors :( somebody succesfully got this working? | 20:01 |
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| DanielLion | i get ok with ttls and mschapv2 but because i can't pull down the cert. it won't let me connect | 20:04 |
| DanielLion | i even saved out the cert from my mac and imported it into the cert. control panel | 20:05 |
| DanielLion | that came in fine and i trusted it | 20:05 |
| Tak | me too | 20:06 |
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| nooknook | I have an 810, as near as I can tell this isn't a Host type usb port, does anyone know for sure? I'm not to familiar on Host ports, I have one on my Zaurus and its different size. | 20:14 |
| timeless | N810 (note the N) has micro usb | 20:15 |
| timeless | micro usb supports usb otg | 20:15 |
| timeless | otg? | 20:15 |
| _Monkey | well, otg is a supplement to the USB 2.0 specification which allows USB devices to be hosts as well as slaves, controlling power, data and master/slave negotiation | 20:15 |
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| timeless | i've tried to send some complaints to nokia for their total failure to document these bits | 20:16 |
| timeless | but oh well | 20:16 |
| nooknook | ahh okay thanks. So perhaps if we had a certain cable we could use it in host mode? | 20:17 |
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| bill20r3 | in theory, barring driver issues. | 20:17 |
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| nooknook | cool thank you for clarifications | 20:19 |
| oil_ | _Monkey: thank you very much of that information. I was just swearing why change the usb port. but now it makes sense. | 20:19 |
| _Monkey | no worries oil_ | 20:19 |
| * timeless boggles | 20:20 | |
| timeless | monkey had a decent response? | 20:20 |
| timeless | oil: monkey's a bot btw... | 20:20 |
| timeless | _monkey: have a bot snack | 20:21 |
| _Monkey | :) | 20:21 |
| oil_ | timeless: I was wondering of the rather quick response :) | 20:21 |
| timeless | oil: amusingly, my responses can be about as fast and useless as bot's :) | 20:21 |
| timeless | (check logs and watch me seem to automatically clean out entries from _monkey :) | 20:22 |
| timeless | s/bot's/bots'/ | 20:22 |
| oil_ | timeless: well. this brings us to the everlasting question. what is the difference of the true nerd and a bot? :) | 20:22 |
| mgedmin | the bot's source code is more readable? | 20:23 |
| fysa | mmm leftover stuffing | 20:23 |
| timeless | fysa: tease! | 20:24 |
| timeless | some of us unfortunate souls are on the wrong side of the ocean | 20:24 |
| oil_ | mgedmin: might be. and bot's do not disturb themselves with internet porn^h^h^h^h knowledge. | 20:25 |
| fysa | anyone on any side of anything without stuffing is definitely on the wrong side. | 20:25 |
| timeless | oil: i wouldn't go that far | 20:25 |
| timeless | i'm sure there's a but somewhere that deals in that stuff :) | 20:26 |
| fysa | naughty bots swapping ports and banging bits | 20:26 |
| * timeless looks for contact info for murrayc | 20:27 | |
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| oil_ | well. we have to admit that most of the x-rated emails come from the bots. there might be artificial intelligence after all :) | 20:28 |
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| timeless | hrm | 20:29 |
| timeless | can someone here name a nokia app that uses tabs for its main window? | 20:29 |
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| oil_ | ok. back to the business. it there a good way to start a script after connecting to a wlan ap? | 20:30 |
| pupnik | xmaeme | 20:31 |
| pupnik | timeless | 20:31 |
| _Monkey | timeless is the microb architect | 20:31 |
| timeless | pupnik: nokia | 20:31 |
| pupnik | oh sry | 20:31 |
| fysa | you're the microbian man, timeless? the one that will give us font/proxy settings and kinetic scrolling and/or thumb-friendly scrollbar? :) | 20:32 |
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| timeless | no,no,no,no :) | 20:33 |
| timeless | actually thumb friendly scrollbar? maybe | 20:33 |
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| db48x | fysa: you can change the font and proxy settings using about:config | 20:33 |
| timeless | i did give you about:config | 20:33 |
| doc|work | hmmm, my mail client won't start. What's the name of the executable? | 20:33 |
| * the-FoX needs some help with maemomyth :( | 20:33 | |
| timeless | so you could say i did the first two :) | 20:33 |
| fysa | yes, but I can't copy/paste or just click on something? | 20:33 |
| timeless | fysa: you can double tap an item in about:Config to select it | 20:33 |
| timeless | and then edit>copy to copy it | 20:33 |
| timeless | i might at some point change about:config to include links | 20:34 |
| timeless | or make it spiffier | 20:34 |
| fysa | and for some reason, network.proxy.something_type is reset to 0 when the browser reloads? | 20:34 |
| db48x | hrm | 20:34 |
| db48x | what happened to copy and paste in the xterm? | 20:34 |
| alterego | It moved. | 20:34 |
| db48x | alterego: why did it do that? | 20:34 |
| alterego | I dunno. There are a few duff changes in the new xterm. | 20:35 |
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| alterego | You have to use the application menu to do copy | 20:35 |
| alterego | Pasting can be done via the vkb | 20:35 |
| doc|work | anyone/ | 20:36 |
| doc|work | ? | 20:36 |
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| fysa | timeless: if it's XUL/JS you can use, probably make them each a link like .. <a onclick/href="javascript:document.editfield.value='network.proxy.etc';">network.proxy.etc</a>? | 20:36 |
| fysa | anyway, I can live without it. :) | 20:36 |
| timeless | oc|work: this is the normal one? | 20:36 |
| doc|work | timeless: yep | 20:36 |
| fysa | I usually just use xterm and nano the prefs.js | 20:36 |
| timeless | doc: gimme a bit | 20:36 |
| doc|work | might be due to a server error, but I'd expect it to say something at least rather than just die silently :/ | 20:37 |
| timeless | 7 Exec=/usr/bin/ossoemail | 20:37 |
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| timeless | fysa: it's html/js | 20:37 |
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| doc|work | timeless: thanks | 20:37 |
| timeless | fysa: it's accepting patches | 20:37 |
| timeless | i don't think that it should do it that way | 20:37 |
| timeless | i think that it should be <body onclick> instead | 20:38 |
| timeless | or something | 20:38 |
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| timeless | maybe <p> | 20:38 |
| timeless | so that it doesn't need to be repeated | 20:38 |
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| timeless | something that basically captures the string dynamically | 20:38 |
| timeless | probably it'd be cool if the edit field were floated or something | 20:38 |
| timeless | so you wouldn't have to go to the top | 20:38 |
| fysa | that would be the best way. | 20:39 |
| db48x | it'd be cooler to use the existing xul impl | 20:39 |
| fysa | touch something and it becomes an edit. | 20:39 |
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| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/browser/mozilla/trunk/microb-engine/microb-engine/debian/resources/branding/microb/content/config.html | 20:39 |
| timeless | you can read and rewrite the html if you like | 20:39 |
| fysa | need to get a build environment up.. | 20:39 |
| timeless | db48x: yeah well um... someone needs to fix perf stuff first :) | 20:40 |
| fysa | cool. | 20:40 |
| db48x | was it really all that slow? | 20:41 |
| timeless | yes | 20:41 |
| db48x | huh | 20:41 |
| db48x | I would have thought it'd be faster than html | 20:41 |
| db48x | does it use a content tree view or a custom tree view? | 20:42 |
| doc|work | weird, restarted n800 and all is fine :/ | 20:42 |
| db48x | guess it wouldn't matter much | 20:42 |
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| cbx33 | dang it | 20:43 |
| cbx33 | my 2008 that I downloaded the other day - the md5sum doesn't match | 20:43 |
| L0cutus | where cani find MC for n800 ? | 20:43 |
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| cbx33 | can someone paste in the md5sum for the current n800 os2008 image? | 20:44 |
| kulve | 900353c77fc7357a8a6a40b0b9483c2c /tmp/RX-34_2008SE_1.2007.44-4_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin | 20:44 |
| kulve | that's mine | 20:44 |
| cbx33 | mine must be corrupt then | 20:44 |
| bill20r3 | 900353c77fc7357a8a6a40b0b9483c2c | 20:44 |
| bill20r3 | ^^ mine | 20:44 |
| cbx33 | unless it's old | 20:44 |
| cbx33 | I got it a while back | 20:44 |
| kulve | that came monday? | 20:45 |
| cbx33 | but it's downloading at a rate of 2.67Kb/s | 20:45 |
| cbx33 | no before.....when there was all the hubbub about it being leaked | 20:45 |
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| cbx33 | now the images seem unavailable | 20:45 |
| cbx33 | it can't download at all | 20:45 |
| cbx33 | what's up with the nokia site I wonder | 20:46 |
| kulve | cbx33: the official beta came monday | 20:46 |
| kulve | not a leaked one | 20:46 |
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| cbx33 | my average download speed is about 6Kb/s | 20:46 |
| cbx33 | ahhh ok | 20:46 |
| cbx33 | well I'm grabbing that as we speak | 20:46 |
| bill20r3 | mine went super slowly too. | 20:47 |
| cbx33 | can anyone else confirm the download speed.....i guess it can't be mirrored anywhere for licensing reasons | 20:47 |
| cbx33 | this sucks | 20:47 |
| cbx33 | 10 hours | 20:47 |
| elb | why would someone else confirm it | 20:47 |
| cbx33 | between 3 and 40 hours apparently | 20:47 |
| elb | if it's slow for you, it's slow for you, and we can't confirm or deny that | 20:47 |
| cbx33 | so i can tell if I have a sucky net connection today | 20:48 |
| timeless | db48x: wait, which? | 20:48 |
| cbx33 | sure you can | 20:48 |
| timeless | do you mean a xul ui, or prefs? | 20:48 |
| elb | people have been complaining of slow downloads for a while | 20:48 |
| guerby | hi, my N800+OS2008 is in a funny state (following my email on maemo-users about power+dpad), stylet, thumb and power button are working as usual, but all other buttons have no effect | 20:48 |
| cbx33 | ok | 20:48 |
| timeless | about:config is almost certainly much faster in xul | 20:48 |
| cbx33 | thanks elb | 20:48 |
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| timeless | especially considering the poor impl i wrote | 20:48 |
| guerby | I have ssh access (and app access) do you know what I should be looking for to help debugging? | 20:48 |
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| timeless | guerby: you should probably install sysklogd | 20:49 |
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| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/find?string=sys.*log.*control | 20:49 |
| guerby | timeless, ok let me check | 20:49 |
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| timeless | guerby: note, i have no idea what i'd be looking for | 20:50 |
| timeless | that's just a basic thing which you'd want installed while chasing ghosts | 20:51 |
| guerby | timeless, sysklogd installed | 20:51 |
| timeless | i'm also not sure where the logs go these days | 20:51 |
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| guerby | /var/log/ ? | 20:51 |
| timeless | at one point it was /var/ftd-log/logs | 20:52 |
| timeless | sorry, people just pung something important | 20:52 |
| * timeless drops #maemo | 20:52 | |
| guerby | timeless seems to be /var/log/syslog | 20:53 |
| timeless | ok, guess they're using the more normal version, fine by me | 20:53 |
| guerby | getting a few lines in it but nothing when I press the not working buttons | 20:54 |
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| ubikolat | is it easy to disable the network manager applet in the n800 or the n810? Probably through /etc/init.d/network stop? | 20:56 |
| timeless | you mean the status bar item? | 20:57 |
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| ubikolat | yea, so that the network manager does not interfere with the wlan0 interface | 20:57 |
| * lardman looks at the back log and sees download rates of 6kB/s for the flash image. I was moaning when mine fell to 50kB/s | 20:58 | |
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| * doc|work was getting 550K from the (unofficial) torrent | 20:58 | |
| lardman | that's more like it | 20:58 |
| guerby | timeless I installed xev and there's no event generated at all | 20:59 |
| timeless | i'd probably reboot and then read dmesg and syslog | 21:00 |
| timeless | (not sure there'd be anything) | 21:00 |
| fysa | timeless: BTW, 'modest' uses the nice thumb-sized scrollbar | 21:00 |
| timeless | i've never heard of loose wires or anything, but i suppose anything's possible | 21:00 |
| DanielLion | 2hrs left for the N810 firmware | 21:00 |
| timeless | fysa: so, how many scrollbars does modest have on the screen at one time? | 21:00 |
| guerby | timeless rebooting then | 21:00 |
| alterego | Heh. | 21:00 |
| DanielLion | Damn they trying to squeeze bandwith though a dial up line or something? | 21:01 |
| alterego | DanielLion, two dialup lines actually. | 21:01 |
| * doc|work was going to say that :| | 21:01 | |
| cbx33 | mines died | 21:01 |
| cbx33 | never past 1Mb | 21:01 |
| fysa | the lower scrollbar being small isn't a big issue -- it's easier to 'drag' the screen left and right | 21:01 |
| cbx33 | hey fysa | 21:01 |
| lardman | they can't have that many people trying to download it can they? | 21:01 |
| DanielLion | ewwww | 21:02 |
| cbx33 | i wouldn't have thought so | 21:02 |
| fysa | but on a long long page, dragging can be an issue | 21:02 |
| DanielLion | Thats nutters | 21:02 |
| fysa | which is where the thumb-sized scrollbar would really help | 21:02 |
| guerby | timeless, I got back my buttons after reboot go figure... | 21:02 |
| alterego | All those lucky yanks with their tablets O_O | 21:02 |
| DanielLion | kinetic scroll would rock! though. | 21:02 |
| fysa | hunting down a screenshot | 21:03 |
| timeless | data:text/html,<frameset%20rows="*,*"><frame%20src="data:text/html,<div%20style='top:1000px'>hi</div><iframe%20src='data:text/html,<textarea%20rows=14%20cols=2>h%20j%20s%20f%20k%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20h%20f%20j%20k%20s%20d%20h%20f%20k%20d%20s%20j%20h%20f%20k%20j%20s%20d%20hfkdsjfhdkj</textarea>'></iframe>"><frame%20src="data:text/plain,hi"></frameset> | 21:03 |
| timeless | fysa: try that url | 21:03 |
| timeless | lardman: ball of twine server? | 21:04 |
| ubikolat | I've been having some issues with os2008 of it rebooting on it's own while I'm running my application is there some way to debug the problem? | 21:04 |
| timeless | ubikolat: install sysklogd | 21:04 |
| timeless | you should also check /proc/boot_reason (?) | 21:04 |
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| timeless | /proc/bootreason | 21:04 |
| guerby | timeless do you get a penny each time someone installs sysklogd? :) :) | 21:05 |
| * lardman wonders about these posts on ITT about p2p clients on the tablets, very odd | 21:05 | |
| timeless | mine's sw_rst (there's a wiki somewhere) | 21:05 |
| timeless | guerby: that really wouldn't pay for my dinner | 21:05 |
| lardman | software reset | 21:05 |
| timeless | lardman: mine isn't interesting, what's interesting is ubi's :) | 21:05 |
| * timeless pokes fysa | 21:06 | |
| timeless | fysa: note: dragging (panning) is a disaster | 21:06 |
| timeless | it needs to be removed and redesigned | 21:06 |
| fysa | sorry, was hunting down this Modest presentation | 21:06 |
| lardman | come on ubikolat, tell us what it says :) | 21:06 |
| fysa | but it has old small scrollbars | 21:06 |
| timeless | you need to play w/ more google web apps | 21:06 |
| timeless | fysa: the modest dev is a neighbor | 21:06 |
| timeless | i can easily see how it looks | 21:06 |
| fysa | OK cool | 21:06 |
| timeless | load my page instead :) | 21:06 |
| timeless | we're not that ignorant | 21:07 |
| ubikolat | timeless: bootreason says 32wd_to | 21:07 |
| timeless | ok, maybe we are... | 21:07 |
| timeless | ubi: that's much more interesting :) | 21:07 |
| ubikolat | ubikolat: what does it mean? | 21:07 |
| * timeless insults ubi's irc client | 21:07 | |
| fysa | you want me to load that big string into the location: field? or stick it into an HTML and view it? | 21:07 |
| timeless | http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/30750 | 21:07 |
| ubikolat | I just installed sysklogd let me try to reproduce the problem | 21:07 |
| fysa | oh, I see. data:text/html | 21:08 |
| lardman | watchdog iirc | 21:08 |
| timeless | lardman: yes... | 21:08 |
| fysa | I can see how fat scrollbars wouldn't necessarily be good there. | 21:09 |
| timeless | ubi: anyway, that page seems to have a fairly reasonable starting outline | 21:09 |
| timeless | fysa: you realize that each set of scrollbars eats space, right? | 21:09 |
| ubikolat | timeless: yeah thanks | 21:09 |
| timeless | at some point, you run out of space | 21:09 |
| timeless | and just have scrollbars | 21:09 |
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| fysa | right now we have a situation where because the scrollbar is so small, it's artificially forced away from the right edge of the screen leaving a gap, right? | 21:10 |
| cbx33 | damn managed to get 1.23 Mb before it died then | 21:10 |
| timeless | basically, while scrollbars are nifty things, ever present scrollbars are probably the wrong solution for our device | 21:10 |
| timeless | fysa: no | 21:10 |
| halley | Scrollbars suck; just drag an "inert" part of the content. | 21:11 |
| timeless | we have a situation where an idiotic theming requirement is forcing bad design | 21:11 |
| fysa | I have a ~8 pixel gap on the right of the scrollbar | 21:11 |
| fysa | ah | 21:11 |
| timeless | halley: what if there is no inert content? | 21:11 |
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| timeless | fysa: anyway, i'm in a pickle | 21:12 |
| timeless | i'm trying to redesign the ui (now) | 21:12 |
| fysa | you know, even the in-page scrollbars could stay the same. it's just the scrollbar on the right that is a problem for me -- my thumb scrapes against the plastic of the case when I scroll up/down | 21:12 |
| timeless | but i have these stupid documents that are "confidential" | 21:12 |
| timeless | fysa: actually, that's the other stupid thing | 21:12 |
| timeless | because the screen is inset | 21:12 |
| timeless | there are arguments against the normal behavior of screen edges | 21:13 |
| fysa | the iPhone/iPod Touch really had it right when they put the screen flush behind glass. | 21:13 |
| * timeless blames the designers | 21:13 | |
| timeless | yes, apple has better engineers | 21:13 |
| timeless | tell me something i can actually fix | 21:13 |
| halley | fysa, I agree about flush mount in general; makes it easier to clean. | 21:13 |
| fysa | :) | 21:13 |
| * timeless doesn't have a budget to hire them | 21:13 | |
| * timeless doesn't have a budget at all | 21:13 | |
| lardman | ubikolat: have you looked at the output of /var/lib/dsme/stats/lifeguard_resets | 21:13 |
| * alterego hopes Nokia decide to do that next time :) | 21:14 | |
| halley | I want to make pygtkeditor tabbed so I can have multiple files at once. | 21:14 |
| *** hugol1 has quit IRC | 21:14 | |
| timeless | tabs are bad | 21:14 |
| timeless | don't do it | 21:14 |
| alterego | It'd be a _proper_ tablet then. | 21:14 |
| halley | One TXT file open at a time is worse for me. | 21:14 |
| * timeless pun-ishes alterego | 21:14 | |
| timeless | halley: just have multiple windows | 21:14 |
| alterego | :P | 21:14 |
| timeless | the window manager should manage the windows for you | 21:15 |
| halley | Er, then finding them with the left-hand icons? | 21:15 |
| timeless | if it's broken, make someone fix it | 21:15 |
| fysa | if the right scroll bar was widened so the left edge meets the dotted line between the [V] minimize and [X] close, I think that would be 'good enough' | 21:15 |
| timeless | halley: i think there's an unsupported setting that'd let you put the tn on another edge if you're so inclined :) | 21:15 |
| timeless | fysa: i will try to make sure my list of grievances includes that one | 21:16 |
| fysa | sorry :) | 21:16 |
| timeless | not your fault | 21:16 |
| timeless | perfectly rational grievance | 21:16 |
| ubikolat | lardman yeah I did | 21:16 |
| fysa | how about instead of kinetic scrolling, some way to amplify dragging?. | 21:16 |
| fysa | that would make it much more useful. | 21:16 |
| ubikolat | lardman but apparently that file doesn't indicate what caused the restart | 21:16 |
| timeless | fysa: no :) | 21:16 |
| fysa | i.e., I move my finger 10 pixels, I want the page to move 50 pixels | 21:16 |
| timeless | fysa: have you looked at minimap? | 21:17 |
| lardman | ubikolat: yeah, just re-read that thread | 21:17 |
| timeless | fysa: put another way | 21:17 |
| ubikolat | I did, just installed ksyslogd | 21:17 |
| timeless | imagine you're looking at... | 21:17 |
| fysa | have not, but will check it out | 21:17 |
| fysa | minimap as default OS2008 'Map'? | 21:17 |
| timeless | http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.120305,-111.738188&spn=0.001642,0.002832&z=19&om=1 | 21:17 |
| timeless | fysa: minimap is nokia's s60 browser solution to a certain problem | 21:18 |
| timeless | ignore it for now | 21:18 |
| timeless | start w/ the url i pasted | 21:18 |
| timeless | without searching, how would you get to "20210"? | 21:18 |
| lardman | ubikolat: dunno about the email, but mine indicates 5* restarts by dsp_dld, and as I have been DSP hacking this is why it's been reset | 21:18 |
| timeless | fysa: if you prefer 90210, that's fine too | 21:19 |
| fysa | sounds like a trick question ;) | 21:19 |
| timeless | just describe the steps you take | 21:19 |
| fysa | unzoom, drag, zoom in? | 21:19 |
| timeless | no tricks | 21:19 |
| timeless | good | 21:19 |
| timeless | you sure you don't want to drag until you reach that? | 21:19 |
| *** xand is now known as zand | 21:19 | |
| timeless | you don't have to unzoom, right? | 21:20 |
| timeless | i mean, if you drag long enough | 21:20 |
| fysa | my wrist would be very tired ;) | 21:20 |
| timeless | and pay for enough acceleration, you might eventually find your destination | 21:20 |
| timeless | really? | 21:20 |
| timeless | i'm shocked | 21:20 |
| timeless | ok. good. | 21:20 |
| ubikolat | lardman yeah mine just has 1 on each, so it's not an application being reset a lot of times, or so I'm guessing | 21:20 |
| timeless | baseline established | 21:20 |
| timeless | next question. what pages do you visit, and precisely how do you try to change their view | 21:20 |
| timeless | are you trying to go down "1 screen", "to the end", "to a random point", ... | 21:21 |
| timeless | are you "trying to read the text" | 21:21 |
| *** zand is now known as xand | 21:21 | |
| timeless | fysa: basically, instead of saying "foo would be cool" | 21:21 |
| K`zan | Anyone know if the FMRadio applet from 2007 will work in 2008 (n800)? | 21:21 |
| timeless | i need you (and the nokians writing stupid requirements) | 21:21 |
| |R | any reason why DisableHFP=True in /etc/bluetooth/audio.conf ? | 21:21 |
| timeless | k`zan: typically you need to rebuild apps for different os releases | 21:21 |
| fysa | right | 21:21 |
| timeless | to actually explain what problem you're trying to solve | 21:22 |
| timeless | what's the real world use case | 21:22 |
| timeless | not, what might be cool | 21:22 |
| K`zan | timeless, I know but I was hoping :). | 21:22 |
| K`zan | Thanks. | 21:22 |
| timeless | the question isn't is "x" cool, it's *why* is X useful | 21:22 |
| timeless | what problem does X solve | 21:22 |
| * sp3000 wonders if the feed applet has been fixed to wrap right since 44 | 21:22 | |
| timeless | and are the conditions leading to the problems that X solves | 21:22 |
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| timeless | sp3000: would reading the changelog answer that? :) | 21:22 |
| * timeless can do that.... | 21:23 | |
| lardman | pupnik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJGR_xRnzik this one is opengl on the omap | 21:23 |
| fysa | is it possible to zoom out less than 80%? | 21:23 |
| timeless | X solves ... equivalent to the conditions on our device | 21:23 |
| timeless | fysa: w/ the ui we have officially? no | 21:23 |
| sp3000 | timeless: eek | 21:23 |
| pupnik | ah ty | 21:23 |
| timeless | i have one browser that lets me zoom to 10%..200% w/ 10% steps | 21:23 |
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| timeless | and that's the browser i happen to like the best for ui choices | 21:24 |
| timeless | fysa: there's another elephant in the corner | 21:24 |
| pupnik | wow nice | 21:24 |
| timeless | and that's the fact that apple may have patents for cool things it does | 21:24 |
| timeless | like how to unlock a device | 21:24 |
| fysa | there are two issues I have with the browser -- friction of the screen/device against my finger makes dragging not feel so hot. and hitting the tiny 10pt font links with my finger. | 21:24 |
| timeless | fysa: good | 21:24 |
| timeless | the friction should make you think that panning is a really stupid solution | 21:25 |
| timeless | in fact, it results in hands that hurt a lot | 21:25 |
| pumpkingod | hmm | 21:25 |
| fysa | the first thing I usually do is set the minimum font size to 14pt.. this lets me not have to use 120% all the time, which makes the images ugly. | 21:25 |
| pumpkingod | I don't seem to have glib-config | 21:25 |
| timeless | and the other thing, hitting the links | 21:25 |
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| timeless | that's a very important problem | 21:25 |
| pumpkingod | anyone have any idea where I'd get it? | 21:25 |
| timeless | (vip :) | 21:25 |
| timeless | which *must* be solved | 21:25 |
| timeless | but is the problem that you want to read the page at 200% | 21:25 |
| *** lardman is now known as lardman|afk | 21:25 | |
| fysa | that helps with the links a bit, but what I really want.. is some way to make those links easier to hit temporarily | 21:25 |
| timeless | or that you need to be able to click the link? | 21:25 |
| fysa | without ruining the page layout | 21:26 |
| timeless | i believe it's precisely as you stated it | 21:26 |
| * czr peeks | 21:26 | |
| timeless | that when you want to click the link, it's hard | 21:26 |
| timeless | so the solution should be to offer you some way to make it easier to click links w/o requiring the page to constantly use 120% or some other zoom level | 21:26 |
| timeless | fysa: let's try some more examples | 21:26 |
| fysa | if I could tap the screen and have all links in that area get CSS font-size:200% for 3-5 seconds, that could help. | 21:26 |
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| * timeless nods | 21:27 | |
| fysa | I've been trying to figure out a CSS hack to this.. | 21:27 |
| timeless | greasemonkey is available | 21:27 |
| timeless | so you should be able to write an addon that lets you toy w/ that | 21:27 |
| timeless | prototyping such things w/ greasemonkey is a very good idea | 21:27 |
| pupnik | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUOqR_2sACk also a nice omap opengl demo | 21:28 |
| timeless | btw: to the rest of #maemo, welcome to what's probably the first useful discussion of how to improve the browser ui anywhere :) | 21:28 |
| fysa | I have no issue with coding, just an issue with time. but a nice three weeks of vacation coming up soon.. | 21:28 |
| timeless | good for you :) | 21:28 |
| * ubikolat wonders if there is a way to have application being excluded from watchdog | 21:28 | |
| timeless | anyway, back to my prototyping | 21:28 |
| pumpkingod | does anyone know where I could find glib-config on my maemo? | 21:28 |
| czr | timeless, thank you. where's the popcorn? :-) | 21:28 |
| fysa | I know I could use JS to make all hrefs float fixed, bump their z-layer up and font-size: 200% and highlight them in some way to make them more visible | 21:29 |
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| czr | timeless, and when does the feature start? :-) | 21:29 |
| sp3000 | hitting small links is ok, getting a context menu on them ...uh | 21:29 |
| fysa | but no matter what, that solution isn't going to work for 100% of the sites | 21:29 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/find?string=glib-config | 21:29 |
| derf | As long as the d-pad doesn't move between what seem like essentially random links instead of scrolling the display. | 21:29 |
| timeless | says it's from pkg-config | 21:29 |
| sp3000 | well, any links really, in a moving vehicle | 21:29 |
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| timeless | fysa: i think the next question i have is probably how hurried you are when you click a link | 21:30 |
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| derf | Except when you hold it down, of course, making it, after an interminable wait, start scrolling so fast that it's impossible to stop where you want it. | 21:30 |
| timeless | would you really be bothered if when you clicked a link you had the following things happen: | 21:30 |
| fysa | the absolute worst thing is having to pull the stylus out just to hit a link. | 21:30 |
| timeless | 1. a zoomed view of the clicked area appears (ideally only on the left/right of your clicking, say using 1/3 of the screen width) | 21:31 |
| fysa | the best would probably be links taking double-taps | 21:31 |
| fysa | when I go for a link, I'm done reading the page | 21:31 |
| timeless | 2. a couple of buttons appear above/below that box | 21:31 |
| timeless | w/ things like "context", "zoom", "properties" | 21:31 |
| fysa | I know what the text around it says and know where I want to go, I just want to do it accurately in as few steps as possible | 21:31 |
| timeless | i haven't quite figured out what buttons you'd get | 21:31 |
| fysa | one tap to 'zoom' the text, another to go | 21:32 |
| timeless | but basically you could then click on the link you really meant in the zoomed area | 21:32 |
| * czr proposes "NAO OK!" | 21:32 | |
| fysa | one tap to zoom the text, then hold to get properties | 21:32 |
| pupnik | interesting ideas timeless | 21:32 |
| timeless | the point is that we have a moderately sized box | 21:32 |
| timeless | and we need to think around it | 21:33 |
| timeless | instead of just having tunnel vision | 21:33 |
| fysa | this way, if there are no links around what I'm going for, I have confidence that I can double-tap | 21:33 |
| timeless | fysa: minor warning | 21:33 |
| fysa | without having to wait for a menu or context | 21:33 |
| timeless | consider the comment i made about about:config | 21:33 |
| timeless | i.e. <body onclick> instead of <a href/onclick> | 21:33 |
| fysa | right | 21:33 |
| timeless | there's no guarantee that you can ever find a point that isn't hot | 21:33 |
| timeless | and for most google web apps, there really are no ... how did halley call that? | 21:34 |
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| fysa | which is why in thumb mode, I don't think the first tap should be sent to the gecko/whatever/JS engine.. | 21:34 |
| fysa | it should be caught | 21:35 |
| * timeless nods | 21:35 | |
| timeless | the one minor problem w/ doing something like this | 21:35 |
| timeless | is that it requires a tutorial at the beginning | 21:35 |
| timeless | that's ok, our device already required one | 21:35 |
| timeless | and suffers from that lack | 21:35 |
| timeless | but ideally there can be /some/ hints | 21:35 |
| fysa | tapping is pretty natural. a context menu isn't bad, as long as it doesn't block i/o for that second confident tap | 21:36 |
| timeless | there is after all one pulsating led available :) | 21:36 |
| timeless | fysa: context menus are a mess | 21:36 |
| timeless | a web app might want one | 21:36 |
| timeless | so might the web browser | 21:36 |
| pumpkingod | timeless: it claims pkg-config is already installed :-/ | 21:36 |
| pumpkingod | but no glib-config | 21:36 |
| timeless | and a web app might also want to enable | 21:36 |
| doc|work | finally, a week later, my boxwave order ships | 21:36 |
| doc|work | 24 hours my arse | 21:37 |
| timeless | pumpkingod: man pkg-config | 21:37 |
| fysa | I'm thinking something like this.. | 21:37 |
| fysa | http://thumbs2.modthesims2.com/images4/MTS2_130011_Numenor_Pic2_Menu.jpg | 21:37 |
| * timeless shrugs | 21:37 | |
| |R | anyone got handsfree profile working with 2008? | 21:37 |
| fysa | yeah, I see what you mean though. | 21:37 |
| pumpkingod | I'm calling pkg-config glib --cflags | 21:37 |
| pumpkingod | but that just calls glib-config | 21:37 |
| timeless | did i mention a web app might want to support drag and drop? | 21:37 |
| timeless | worse, the web browser might want to too | 21:38 |
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| timeless | i need to get out a paint app and draw what i'm describing | 21:38 |
| doc|work | speaking of pulsating leds, it'd be nice if it wouldn't pulsate for long on email receipt if you're using the device at that moment | 21:38 |
| timeless | doc|work:you're free to file bugs | 21:38 |
| * doc|work will do that tonight | 21:38 | |
| timeless | but be sure you indicate you're aware that there's a stupid specification mandating the behavior | 21:39 |
| timeless | otherwise the bug will be closed as "we're doing what the spec says" | 21:39 |
| doc|work | hmmm, ok, nokia spec? | 21:39 |
| timeless | doc: specs are secrets | 21:39 |
| timeless | assume they exist | 21:39 |
| elb | haha | 21:39 |
| timeless | generally any behavior we have is almost certainly specified | 21:40 |
| doc|work | o.O | 21:40 |
| doc|work | so, if they're secret can I point to this conversation as to how I'm aware of them? :) | 21:40 |
| timeless | please don't | 21:41 |
| DanielLion | You know .. id lvoe to see a 2ndlife client on here | 21:41 |
| timeless | it's reasonable to assume secret specifications exist | 21:41 |
| DanielLion | with the touch screen it would totaly rock | 21:41 |
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| timeless | and it's reasonable to state that you know that X is probably done because of a specification | 21:41 |
| fysa | no context menu. touch-and-hold can go straight through to the JS/site if that area is 'active,' but I don't think there will be any problem with effectively turning most onclicks to ondoubleclicks. | 21:41 |
| doc|work | so, I'm to say I know a secret specification exists :| | 21:42 |
| fysa | we already lost mouseover | 21:42 |
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| timeless | fysa: hold on | 21:42 |
| chx | moooore silly questions about the N810. The GPS and the Google maps, are these linked? I mean, is there a plugin which sends coordinates to Google? | 21:42 |
| fysa | http://www.interact-sw.co.uk/images/Magnifier1.png | 21:42 |
| fysa | http://www.tutorialblog.org/magnified/14.jpg | 21:43 |
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| timeless | fysa: give me a bit | 21:43 |
| fysa | np, I have some work to do | 21:43 |
| fysa | take your time | 21:43 |
| timeless | i can eitiher type/talk/think, or draw | 21:43 |
| fysa | iPod/iPhone handles it by zooming the entire page on double tap. | 21:44 |
| fysa | having double-tap alternate between 40%, 100% and 180% zoom might not be bad. | 21:45 |
| fysa | but that's three touches to hit a link confidently | 21:45 |
| timeless | it's actually not that simple | 21:45 |
| timeless | try it w/ complicated table layouts | 21:46 |
| timeless | it will sometimes do "interesting" things | 21:46 |
| timeless | often moderately frustrating | 21:46 |
| timeless | note: the iPhone has support for multi-touch | 21:46 |
| timeless | as the microb architect, i'm constrained by having to design for 770,n800,n810 | 21:46 |
| timeless | maybe other things | 21:46 |
| timeless | apple otoh can design for a single well designed system | 21:47 |
| timeless | anyway, enough talking about apple, but i hope you can see part of why looking at apple isn't helpful | 21:47 |
| timeless | also keep in mind that apple explicitly ruled out hovers and a number of other web2 features | 21:47 |
| timeless | they said that they'd make the web come to them | 21:47 |
| timeless | nokia can't do that | 21:48 |
| fysa | yeah, it's apples .. and oranges really. | 21:48 |
| timeless | right... which is why i'd rather ignore apple | 21:48 |
| timeless | it's not that i'm ignorant and unaware of them | 21:48 |
| timeless | i've used their product, looked at most of the features | 21:48 |
| fysa | I have the problem of having both devices in front of me | 21:48 |
| timeless | and i admire it | 21:48 |
| timeless | but i can't use them | 21:48 |
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| timeless | because their constraints and mine don't match | 21:48 |
| fysa | and while I can get to the real web with the N800, the Apple is easier to read news with casually. | 21:48 |
| fysa | that's a different conversation for a different time | 21:49 |
| timeless | have you tried google reader? | 21:49 |
| fysa | I use readermini | 21:49 |
| timeless | note: we broke google reader (and just about every other google web app) in various interesting ways | 21:49 |
| fysa | https://readermini.com/ | 21:50 |
| timeless | but a proper non hacked browser w/ full google reader in the n800's form factor... | 21:50 |
| timeless | (heck, even w/ the n800's hardware) | 21:50 |
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| fysa | right, I would love to use full google reader. | 21:50 |
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| fysa | maybe profiles based on the content width | 21:54 |
| fysa | or whether the page defines constant width | 21:55 |
| fysa | (these are all greasemonkey-testable things) | 21:55 |
| timeless | right, i've been planning something like that | 21:55 |
| timeless | haven't quite figured out how to do the ui | 21:55 |
| timeless | but basically there are fewer than 6 page "profiles" | 21:55 |
| timeless | and most likely each site you visit will fit one profile | 21:56 |
| fysa | can we rotate? | 21:56 |
| timeless | so it should be trivial to say "for this page, set the screen width to 400, or 800, or 1600, and set the font size/zoom scale/ ... | 21:56 |
| timeless | the device doesn't currently offer that feature | 21:56 |
| timeless | all the browsers i look at can | 21:56 |
| timeless | gecko can do slow rotations using canvas | 21:57 |
| timeless | however, cairo is *Very* slow | 21:57 |
| timeless | and there's no hardware acceleration | 21:57 |
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| timeless | (cairo is one or maybe 3 very big headache[s]) | 21:57 |
| fysa | CSS can rotate text 90 degrees | 21:57 |
| fysa | wait. | 21:57 |
| sp3000 | css can make your head spin, with the same effect? | 21:58 |
| fysa | CSS3 | 21:58 |
| timeless | svg can do anything | 21:58 |
| sp3000 | cool, dictionary = none means norwegian :P | 21:58 |
| timeless | it's a good thing microb doesn't include it :) | 21:58 |
| fysa | slowly ;) | 21:58 |
| timeless | _very_ | 21:59 |
| fysa | image-orientation: | 21:59 |
| timeless | note: there's nothing wrong w/ thinking about rotation | 22:00 |
| timeless | (my mockup will include it) | 22:01 |
| timeless | you just must not rely on it :) | 22:01 |
| fysa | mention that the device is too heavy to hold comfortably in one hand without rotation ;) | 22:01 |
| timeless | buy a treo | 22:02 |
| fysa | and I have pretty big hands ;) | 22:02 |
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| timeless | buy a kindle | 22:03 |
| fysa | is that what nokia is telling me? | 22:03 |
| fysa | :) | 22:03 |
| timeless | no | 22:03 |
| timeless | that's what a tired engineer is saying in response to unchangable bits | 22:03 |
| timeless | if this device will never fit your needs, then it might really not fit your needs | 22:03 |
| timeless | otoh, you're nice, and i like/value your input | 22:04 |
| timeless | but if it's actually a waste of your time because it won't work, then i recognize that your time may be better spent investigating others | 22:04 |
| fysa | I don't care much about things like rotation. those are things that would be 'nice,' but otherwise.. eh | 22:04 |
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| * timeless pokes fysa | 22:06 | |
| fysa | don't worry, I can sympathize with tired engineers. I do workplace pledge campaign systems and this is campaign season.. months of long hours from extremely demanding clients that need everything immediately because their entire year is centered around two or three weeks. | 22:06 |
| timeless | sorry, some things aren't for sharing | 22:06 |
| timeless | ok, so imagine you tap on the guy's nose | 22:08 |
| pupnik | i'll wager rotation will come in 2008, with a N9x0 - if at all. - not as an app-level feature | 22:08 |
| timeless | you are given a couple of things | 22:08 |
| timeless | a bigger view of the area you tapped | 22:08 |
| timeless | so that you have a chance to see the various links that might be there | 22:08 |
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| pupnik | i think that could be a welcome innovation, timeless | 22:09 |
| pupnik | especially if you can do the zoom without re-rendering the whole page | 22:09 |
| timeless | i'm pretty sure we can do at least basic trivial zoom w/o rerendering | 22:10 |
| timeless | and practically speaking if you're trying to hit a link | 22:10 |
| timeless | you want to hit the link | 22:10 |
| pupnik | would that require disabling the pan-dragging feature? | 22:10 |
| timeless | not have some other view | 22:10 |
| pupnik | yes | 22:11 |
| timeless | pupnik: i'm working on the assumption that the osso browser "features" are all dead | 22:11 |
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| pupnik | k | 22:11 |
| timeless | now, if i'm lucky, balanced on the other side of the world (somewhere) | 22:11 |
| timeless | would be a zoomed out view | 22:11 |
| timeless | because as fysa noted at the beginning of our exercise | 22:11 |
| timeless | if you want to get from one point to another | 22:11 |
| timeless | it makes more sense to zoom out and then refocus | 22:11 |
| timeless | ok, back to details | 22:13 |
| timeless | you'll have buttons that let you pick between "Click" "Hover" and "Right click" | 22:13 |
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| timeless | which will give you a way to trigger hover effects | 22:13 |
| fysa | coming back here now | 22:13 |
| timeless | if you click the hover button, then you will get a cursor that will appear on the screen | 22:14 |
| timeless | possibly w/ a mouse turd cursor trail (not sure) | 22:14 |
| timeless | basically each time you tap, your mouse would move to that position | 22:14 |
| timeless | and the web app would get hover events, not clicks | 22:14 |
| timeless | until you switch out of hover mode | 22:14 |
| * halley shudders. | 22:14 | |
| timeless | yes, modal uis suck | 22:14 |
| timeless | so does dealing w/ broken input methods | 22:15 |
| timeless | and the device we have is fundamentally flawed | 22:15 |
| pupnik | i think i understand, timeless needs to map a tablet to existing software | 22:15 |
| halley | Speaking of which, nobody's gotten Japanese working on N810 that I can find. | 22:15 |
| timeless | halley: the audience for japanese is smaller than the audience for chinese | 22:15 |
| timeless | even though the japanese are probably more willing to spend their money | 22:15 |
| timeless | and adopt the product | 22:15 |
| pupnik | so only way to do mouseover is some kind of modal thing | 22:16 |
| timeless | otoh, japanese devices are kinda in a different league | 22:16 |
| timeless | pupnik: essentially, probably | 22:16 |
| timeless | i'm not saying it the only way | 22:16 |
| Tak | it would have to be like 1mm thin with a 1mm border around the screen to sell in japan | 22:16 |
| timeless | but it's a way i'm proposing | 22:16 |
| halley | Not really, they either use a phone or a Panasonic lappy that's slightly bigger than an eeePC. | 22:16 |
| pupnik | my noobish mom liked dragging zoomed-in webpages with stylus | 22:17 |
| timeless | pupnik: yeah, but when it breaks on gmail, google docs, google earth, google maps, google reader, ... | 22:17 |
| timeless | google video | 22:17 |
| timeless | youtube | 22:17 |
| _Monkey | somebody said youtube was finally usable | 22:17 |
| pupnik | ok then, dpad | 22:17 |
| timeless | you know where nokia stuck the dpad for the n810? | 22:18 |
| timeless | something equivalent to up the rear of an animal | 22:18 |
| pupnik | yeah i can't wait to try it | 22:18 |
| pupnik | hehe | 22:18 |
| timeless | anyway, there are other ways | 22:18 |
| halley | I hate the dpad being inside the foldup keyboard. | 22:18 |
| timeless | hover could have a timer that offers to tick | 22:18 |
| timeless | (yes perf people will kill me) | 22:18 |
| timeless | so if you stop tapping on the screen for say 20s, it could switch back to "click" | 22:19 |
| timeless | not sure that's a good thing or not | 22:19 |
| timeless | but it could do it | 22:19 |
| halley | 20sec is an eternity. | 22:19 |
| timeless | (things that would need to be prototyped/tested/tweaked) | 22:19 |
| timeless | halley: if you're in a hurry, tap click and tap your target | 22:20 |
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| timeless | i think one question i have is how imprecise and how clustered will things be | 22:20 |
| fysa | speech recognition and speaking the text of the link. | 22:20 |
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| timeless | iow, am i really dealing w/ cases where links are 1x1 px each | 22:20 |
| timeless | all adjacent in a 4x4 grid? | 22:21 |
| timeless | such that i need 800% or 1600% zoom? | 22:21 |
| timeless | or can i simply offer 200% zoom (as i did in my mock up) | 22:21 |
| sp3000 | those wouldn't work on common hardware so I don't know if you want to deal with quite that | 22:21 |
| timeless | note: theoretically someone could make a Gimp app using a web page | 22:21 |
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| timeless | in that case, pixel perfect could be painfully required | 22:22 |
| sp3000 | 3x 4x sounds reasonable | 22:22 |
| pupnik | hrm | 22:23 |
| sp3000 | but a mockup probably helps figure out the factor better | 22:23 |
| Tak | timeless: yeah, wtf is with the dpad being there? | 22:23 |
| Tak | they killed gaming on the n810 deader than it already was | 22:23 |
| timeless | tak: did i mention that afaict none of the nokians i know had *any* influence over the hardware design/layout | 22:23 |
| Tak | figures | 22:23 |
| pupnik | if the dpad is easy action, can't your thumbs hit it, along with letters on the right? | 22:24 |
| pupnik | while index fingers stabilize the unit? | 22:24 |
| Tak | the people that design and/or layout the hardware, have they ever seen or touched a tablet? | 22:24 |
| pupnik | have you touched a N810 yet Tak? | 22:24 |
| elb | is it really so horrible to slide out the keyboard? | 22:25 |
| Tak | Yes. | 22:25 |
| timeless | you generally have issues w/ the up arrow key | 22:25 |
| Tak | err | 22:25 |
| timeless | because you run up against the rail | 22:25 |
| Tak | pupnik: No. elb: Yes. | 22:25 |
| elb | why is that? | 22:25 |
| pupnik | mk | 22:25 |
| timeless | left/right/down aren't so bad | 22:25 |
| elb | (I have not touched an N810) | 22:25 |
| * timeless pokes pupnik | 22:25 | |
| Tak | Let me use fceu as my example. | 22:25 |
| timeless | you're not likely to bleed into QAZ from right | 22:26 |
| timeless | but it's not soft, fairly hard metal | 22:26 |
| timeless | (duh, yeah yeah, but still...) | 22:26 |
| timeless | (it could habe been rubber...) | 22:26 |
| Tak | Since there were no hardware buttons on the RHS, and in any case, you could only press one hardware button at a time, onscreen A/B/Sel/Start buttons were added to the right side of the UI | 22:26 |
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| elb | mercury, for example, makes poor casing material ;-) | 22:26 |
| timeless | :) | 22:26 |
| timeless | tin isn't much better :| | 22:27 |
| Tak | and it's kind of symmetrical on the 770 and n800 to have your left thumb on the dpad and your right thumb on AB | 22:27 |
| elb | why could you only press one hardware button at a time? | 22:27 |
| timeless | tak: believe me, normal people aren't the only ones who complain about lack of gaming | 22:27 |
| * timeless pokes pupnik, last call | 22:27 | |
| Tak | but with the n810, you'll need to hold the kb slid out and dpad at the lower left of the screen, with AB at the upper right of the screen and kind of play at an awkward diagonal | 22:28 |
| elb | anyway, yeah, it does seem that a portable device wins by having a good d-pad and a few hardware buttons in convenient proximity to each other | 22:28 |
| Tak | elb: The hardware wouldn't register more than one. | 22:28 |
| elb | are there hardware keys on the RHS which could be used to be A/B/etc. ? | 22:28 |
| elb | oh, so a specific hardware limitation with the existing buttons? | 22:28 |
| Tak | There weren't. I was using zoom for a while | 22:28 |
| cbx33 | hmpf | 22:29 |
| elb | (note that, I have no idea about the nokia tablets, but key de-duping is generally performed in software, simply to keep from annoying users) | 22:29 |
| cbx33 | 2:36 left | 22:29 |
| pupnik | Tak: i think the keypad registers multiple keypresses | 22:29 |
| sp3000 | Tak: onscreen buttons at bottom of screen aren't impossible to thumb about iirc with while using the keys | 22:29 |
| pupnik | a/b/c/d buttons can be on keyboard afaict | 22:30 |
| elb | I would think that with the N810 keyboard, some RHS keys could be made into a/b/whatever keys | 22:30 |
| elb | thus putting hte d-pad and keys in a horizontal line | 22:30 |
| pupnik | yah | 22:31 |
| sp3000 | (if there's a problem getting simultaneous keys so you need onscreen buttons in the first place; I have no idea) | 22:31 |
| timeless | elb: yeah, you could easily make backspace+enter into a/b | 22:33 |
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| timeless | possibly fn=x, rightshift=y | 22:34 |
| timeless | problem is, what do you do for n800/770? :) | 22:34 |
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| fysa | as soon as I get XMaeme working, I will try the Wiimote as an emulator controller. ;) | 22:34 |
| elb | it's hard to revise the past :-) | 22:34 |
| sp3000 | you pick the other ui variant for the other hw :) | 22:34 |
| elb | I'm just saying, the declaration that slide-out keyboard is uniformly bad seems reactionary to me :-) | 22:34 |
| timeless | elb: sounds like you're an optimist | 22:35 |
| sp3000 | (and if you use spare space for onscreen buttons, it's not even variants, just alternative controls) | 22:35 |
| elb | timeless: I'm a developer :-) | 22:35 |
| elb | timeless: "NOOOOO! Change!" is a common cry ;-) | 22:36 |
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| Tak | fysa: what's to get working? | 22:42 |
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| pupnik | xmaeme works fine here | 22:47 |
| Tak | pupnik: have you tried xmame as well? | 22:48 |
| maddler | evening all | 22:48 |
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| Tak | elb: slideout keyboard isn't uniformly bad, but putting the dpad on it is, IMO | 22:48 |
| pupnik | not lately - i did around april | 22:48 |
| roue | I got an N800 this week (OS2008). When I hit a text box with my finger the minikeyboard pops up most of the time. Sometimes I get the fullsize thumbboard. I can't seem to figure out how to make the thumboard come up every time, though. What's the trick? thanks. | 22:49 |
| pupnik | Gravitar and Space Duel are gorgeous on tablets | 22:49 |
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| Tak | roue: just make sure it's very obviously a fingerpress and not a stylus click | 22:50 |
| pupnik | eat, eat! you all skin and bones! | 22:50 |
| * Tak only bones and organs | 22:50 | |
| roue | Tak -- obvious how? I have pretty big fingers. I've tried pressing longer, harder, softer. I'm not seeing it. | 22:50 |
| fysa | Tak: OS2008, missing libglade2-0 for some reason | 22:51 |
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| fysa | Tak: or the wrong XMaeme is in the .install on maemo.org | 22:51 |
| Tak | wtf, seriously? | 22:51 |
| fysa | The following packages will be REMOVED: | 22:52 |
| fysa | osso-software-version | 22:52 |
| fysa | The following packages will be upgraded: | 22:52 |
| fysa | libglade2-0 | 22:52 |
| fysa | that could be it, | 22:52 |
| Tak | the app manager won't autoupgrade libglade2? | 22:54 |
| doc|work | roue: also, pressing the centre button on the cursor brings up the thumbboard | 22:54 |
| roue | thanks doc|work | 22:54 |
| doc|work | I was having trouble with libglade too yesterday | 22:54 |
| fysa | sounds like it doesn't want to autoupgrade it because that would mean uninstalling osso-software-version | 22:54 |
| Tak | wtf, am I the only one using libglade? | 22:55 |
| * Tak reaches his wtf quota and explodes | 22:55 | |
| doc|work | Tak: nope | 22:56 |
| fysa | Package: libglade2-0 | 22:56 |
| fysa | Versions: | 22:56 |
| fysa | 1:2.6.2-1indt1(/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages)(/var/lib/apt/lists/repostory.maemo.org_extras_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages) | 22:56 |
| fysa | 1:2.4.0-1osso2(/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_chinook_free_binary-armel_Packages)(/var/lib/dpkg/status) | 22:56 |
| doc|work | I'm getting versioning problems | 22:56 |
| fysa | that could be my problem. | 22:56 |
| Tak | hmm, I'm just using the version in the sdk | 22:56 |
| inz | Anyone care to test sgt-puzzles for OS2008 ( http://maemo-hackers.org/sgt-puzzles.install ) | 22:56 |
| Tak | libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.6.1) | 22:57 |
| fysa | apt-cache showpkg libglade2-0 | 22:57 |
| doc|work | same here, but I'm getting missing package 1:2.4.0 | 22:57 |
| Tak | haha, crap | 22:58 |
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| Tak | I must have gotten the indt one installed in my sdk somehow | 22:58 |
| * Tak downgrade, rebuild, reupload | 22:59 | |
| fysa | ah :) | 22:59 |
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| Tak | there we go: libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.3.6) | 23:00 |
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| doc|work | Provides: 1:2.6.2-1indt1 and 2.4.0-1osso2 | 23:00 |
| doc|work | that broken? :/ | 23:00 |
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| doc|work | although it still says missing | 23:01 |
| pupnik | yeah that indt (idnt?) is odd | 23:02 |
| Tak | uploaded, should be in the repo shortly | 23:02 |
| doc|work | nope, indt here | 23:03 |
| doc|work | might try removing it | 23:03 |
| fysa | yeah, give it a bit | 23:04 |
| doc|work | hmmm, says only one is installed ... | 23:04 |
| fysa | I think that libglade2-0 is poisoned. | 23:04 |
| doc|work | leave it to maemo.org to fix? | 23:04 |
| fysa | and xmaeme was built for the newer non-friendly indt libglade, sounds like he just rebuilt for the regular libglade | 23:04 |
| Tak | yes. | 23:04 |
| fysa | which means libglade2-0 will not need to be upgraded for xmaeme to install | 23:04 |
| Tak | correct. | 23:04 |
| cbx33 | 2:20 left | 23:05 |
| cbx33 | man this is torture | 23:05 |
| fysa | I believe the issue is/was affecting some other packages | 23:05 |
| Tak | although the whole incompatible-libglade-in-garage-extras business should probably be resolved | 23:05 |
| fysa | perhaps that indt libglade needs to be kicked out of maemo extras chinook completely? | 23:05 |
| * Tak => home | 23:06 | |
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| fysa | thanks for the update, tak | 23:08 |
| IPvFun | hey, any scoop on the dos and donts of installing apps from the os2007 repository on a n800 os2008? | 23:08 |
| fysa | I can now duct-tape a Wiimote to the top of my N800 and try playing mario ;) | 23:08 |
| IPvFun | repositories* | 23:09 |
| * czr whees | 23:09 | |
| alterego | I thought maemo came with it's own libglade. | 23:09 |
| pupnik | there's a genesis emu that just needs a hi-res timer in arm asm | 23:09 |
| alterego | In fact .. I know it does because I've used it! | 23:09 |
| fysa | it does. | 23:09 |
| fysa | but garage is tainted with a newer version | 23:10 |
| fysa | so apt-get install libglade2-0 will try to install it.. | 23:10 |
| fysa | and tak's xmaeme was built against a newer-than-included libglade | 23:10 |
| fysa | so it would force your device to try to install the tainted libglade2-0 | 23:10 |
| fysa | which app catalog was smart enough not to allow | 23:10 |
| pupnik | aha! | 23:10 |
| fysa | thus 'does not meet dependencies: libglade2-0' | 23:10 |
| buck68 | anybody know if multi-boot with n800 and os2008 developer image is feasible? | 23:11 |
| alterego | buck68, sure. If you know what you're doing it's quite a simple process really. | 23:12 |
| fysa | but then again, what isn't in that case? :) | 23:12 |
| alterego | :) | 23:13 |
| alterego | I was going to work on that and USB host moding my N800 tonight. | 23:13 |
| buck68 | alterego: I looked at this: http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/howto_dualboot_bora.html | 23:13 |
| alterego | Depends if I get this "real" work finished though ^_^ | 23:13 |
| alterego | buck68, If you understand what's going on there. Then you should have a good chance of doing it yourself. | 23:13 |
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| buck68 | i tried it, substituting 4.0 stuff where it seemed appropriate.. but when I got to the step of booting on the n800, the kernel seemed to hang | 23:13 |
| czr | alterego, what you working on? | 23:14 |
| alterego | czr, crappy website. | 23:14 |
| czr | sounds like "fun" :-) | 23:14 |
| buck68 | i'll give it another go... | 23:14 |
| fysa | is anyone doing actual compiling on device itself? | 23:14 |
| alterego | czr, I don't really like doing websites much. But it's where most of my work comes in :/ | 23:14 |
| czr | I'm trying to come up with some window-level property which people would be familiar with (other than 'modal') | 23:14 |
| alterego | Freakin' sods law. I'm not even that good at it! | 23:14 |
| czr | alterego, I feel your pain | 23:14 |
| buck68 | that's what i'd like to do, via scratchbox cpu transparency | 23:14 |
| czr | alterego, just like my material dev project, I could care less in all honesty :-) | 23:15 |
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| alterego | Heh | 23:15 |
| czr | I'd much rather be working with tlb-benchmarking | 23:15 |
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| alterego | Well, this is nearly up and the next project at my door is _far_ more interesting. And it's todo with Ruby and the tablets ;) | 23:16 |
| czr | and trying to solve online defragmentation issues so that hugetlbfs could be more useful | 23:16 |
| alterego | I've always said I would like to get paid to do ruby-maemo stuff ^_^ | 23:16 |
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| czr | maybe you will, one of these days :-) | 23:16 |
| alterego | czr, that's the point of the next contract I've been asked to do. Ruby + Maemo :P | 23:17 |
| czr | that's nice | 23:17 |
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| czr | bleh. I'll need to write a test program | 23:17 |
| czr | or anyone around who can tell me whether it's true than when you set a GtkWindow modal = True, it won't affect anything if that is the main window of the app? | 23:18 |
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| alterego | czr, I've got a feeling it doesn't .. But don't quote me ;) | 23:19 |
| alterego | czr, you could write a 3 liner in python ;) | 23:19 |
| czr | I could? | 23:19 |
| czr | I could I guess. but I don't do pygtk really | 23:19 |
| alterego | Sure, window = new Gtk.window(false) | 23:19 |
| alterego | Well, I don't know it either. | 23:19 |
| alterego | I could do it in Ruby | 23:19 |
| * czr shrugs | 23:20 | |
| czr | I can always try | 23:20 |
| alterego | Would you like me to test for you? | 23:20 |
| czr | sure, if it's not too much to ask | 23:20 |
| alterego | No, two ticks. | 23:20 |
| czr | cool | 23:20 |
| czr | I should really start using pygtk one of these days | 23:20 |
| czr | but I'm not really a GUI person. not with crappy toolkits at least ;-) | 23:20 |
| czr | oh. did I say crappy? what I meant was "very very flexible" | 23:21 |
| alterego | czr, a toplevel window right? | 23:22 |
| czr | alterego, yup | 23:22 |
| czr | stick a label in the middle of it and set the window modality = True and see whether it is modal or not | 23:22 |
| alterego | Yeah, done that. | 23:23 |
| czr | is it? modal? :-) | 23:23 |
| alterego | It's not modal no. | 23:23 |
| czr | right. | 23:23 |
| czr | thanks :-) | 23:23 |
| alterego | It's pretty though. | 23:23 |
| czr | heh | 23:23 |
| alterego | And I did it in 4 lines in IRB | 23:23 |
| czr | I had two lines for 2 years in my material | 23:23 |
| IPvFun | is the os2008 browser engine gecko by default | 23:23 |
| alterego | IPvFun, by default and only. | 23:24 |
| czr | and yesterday someone started whining about those two lines. they were just an example on the property interface of GTK+ | 23:24 |
| czr | but it used the 'modal' property | 23:24 |
| alterego | IPvFun, There is no Opera in OS2008 | 23:24 |
| alterego | Hah | 23:24 |
| czr | IPvFun, you could always install Ballet on it | 23:24 |
| alterego | Yeah, that's funny. | 23:24 |
| czr | alterego, irony is that I don't even use modality anywhere in the proper examples | 23:24 |
| IPvFun | I'd rather go with gecko | 23:24 |
| alterego | So you were just checking to see whether the property actually had any effect so you didn't have to change those lines aye? ;) | 23:24 |
| czr | ah, a lizard lover | 23:25 |
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| IPvFun | ;) | 23:25 |
| czr | alterego, well. just verifying what I got in one of the emails where someone said that I should use the "transient-to" property but when I told it was for top-level window they said that it "it's useless". | 23:25 |
| alterego | Crap .. All these distractions .. | 23:25 |
| czr | just verying what "it's useless means", since the GTK+ docs don't say anything about this | 23:26 |
| alterego | Right | 23:26 |
| czr | thanks | 23:26 |
| alterego | np | 23:26 |
| czr | alterego, can you do another test? :-) | 23:26 |
| alterego | I know ruby/gtk very well so anytime. | 23:26 |
| czr | try setting resizable to false :-) | 23:26 |
| alterego | Yeah? | 23:26 |
| czr | 'resizable' | 23:26 |
| alterego | Okay | 23:26 |
| czr | I'm going to replace modal with that. | 23:26 |
| alterego | czr, works how it should. Window is not resizable :) | 23:28 |
| czr | cool. thanks a lot | 23:28 |
| alterego | np | 23:28 |
| alterego | Lot quicker than writing out crappy tests in C :P | 23:28 |
| czr | true that | 23:29 |
| czr | should learn pygtk one of these days | 23:30 |
| czr | but as we see, I don't need to ;-) | 23:30 |
| alterego | Hah | 23:30 |
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| alterego | Yeah, you should learn ruby gtk instead. | 23:30 |
| * czr sets the "open" property on window to TRUE | 23:30 | |
| czr | that's where you can.. you know. :-) | 23:30 |
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| czr | I think I'm beyond ruby. python got to me first. | 23:31 |
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| alterego | Well, as long as you enjoy using it I guess I can live with it ;) | 23:31 |
| * czr nods | 23:31 | |
| alterego | But if you don't .. You can always try Ruby :P | 23:31 |
| czr | btw, is extending ruby with C painful and does the API change a lot? | 23:31 |
| alterego | No | 23:32 |
| czr | and better yet, is it documented? | 23:32 |
| alterego | It's _really_ easy. | 23:32 |
| alterego | Ah, documented not so much no. | 23:32 |
| alterego | The best resource is a chapter on it in "Programming Ruby" | 23:32 |
| czr | http://docs.python.org/api/api.html | 23:32 |
| alterego | That and ruby.h and intern.h | 23:32 |
| czr | heh. that's not good :-) | 23:32 |
| alterego | Well, it's not so bad. You get a feel for how things are structured quite quickly and it just becomes easy. If something seems to hard then you're doing it wrong and should check for an easy way to do it. | 23:33 |
| czr | sure. similar to CPython really I guess | 23:33 |
| czr | but having proper docs for everything really really helps | 23:34 |
| czr | anyhow, I think I'll stick to python for a while longer :-). it's just so sneaky. | 23:34 |
| alterego | Heh | 23:34 |
| czr | and fuzzy. and warm. | 23:34 |
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| alterego | I got the impression writing C extensions for Python was painful. | 23:34 |
| alterego | Looks a lot like ruby. | 23:34 |
| czr | oh? | 23:34 |
| alterego | Just not as OO. | 23:35 |
| czr | it's not | 23:35 |
| czr | well, it's structured around namespaces/dicts | 23:35 |
| alterego | The API's are almost identical. | 23:35 |
| czr | since python is based on dynamic namespaces | 23:35 |
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| alterego | Yeah, that's where the differences seem to be. | 23:35 |
| czr | which pretty much means that you can do metamorphic template classes _if_ you want them | 23:35 |
| alterego | If you take some of the Object orientation bits. That's like the Ruby API. | 23:35 |
| alterego | Then you have helper macros like STR2CSTR etc. | 23:36 |
| czr | and all kinds of other very-OO stuff which goes beyond my capacity | 23:36 |
| alterego | Anyhow .. More distractions and I've got a deadline. | 23:36 |
| czr | CPython also has macros. but the symbol space is more structured. you'll never see anything that doesn't start with Py_ or PY_ | 23:36 |
| czr | chop chop alterego | 23:36 |
| alterego | :P | 23:36 |
| alterego | Thank god for rails .. | 23:37 |
| czr | thanks again :-) | 23:37 |
| * czr puts a train on alterego's rails | 23:37 | |
| alterego | np | 23:37 |
| czr | 'do the locomotive..' | 23:37 |
| alterego | Hah | 23:37 |
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| mouta | Hello | 23:46 |
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| mouta | Is it possible to have windows with alpha channel for transparency in maemo ? | 23:47 |
| mouta | (using gdk_screen_get_rgba_colormap) | 23:47 |
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| fysa | I don't know the real answer to the that, but as I believe that's the method X-Chat uses for transparency and X-Chat gives me a "this window manager does not support transparency" I'm thinking not? | 23:50 |
| mouta | mmm, I don't know X-Chat | 23:50 |
| mouta | How would you do a osd-like text rendering (thus no bordered window) ? | 23:51 |
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| fysa | http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.0/gdk/GdkScreen.html | 23:51 |
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| mouta | I've already seen that page but it doesn't help me | 23:52 |
| fysa | hmmm | 23:52 |
| fysa | I don't think I've seen an app use no bordered window yet. | 23:53 |
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| mouta | But menu are drawn with no border... | 23:54 |
| mouta | s/menu/menus | 23:54 |
| fysa | are you using OS2008? | 23:54 |
| mouta | I guess : maemo 4.0 | 23:55 |
| timelyx | fysa/sp3000/et al | 23:56 |
| timelyx | so, i'm pretty sure that the magic size is 256x256 | 23:56 |
| timelyx | basically either i allow a 128x128 block (w/ stackables for both zoom and map) | 23:56 |
| timelyx | or i show only one of those two at 256x256 | 23:57 |
| timelyx | or perhaps, one at 256x256 and the other at 128x128 | 23:57 |
| timelyx | but i think that i can stack those together on a single side | 23:57 |
| timelyx | and have them easily run away from the cursor when the cursor approaches | 23:57 |
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| timelyx | i'll have to see if it's possible to fit all the necessary buttons around such a layout | 23:59 |
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