IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-11-28

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timelessTrykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt hen til fortsette venter.00:00
timelessAccents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off affection at carry on awaiting.00:00
timelessthat's not bad :)00:01
czrhmm. I'm trying to verify the "localhost internet sockets don't work in offline mode" (maemo-devel, grep for "web based local application GUIs")00:01
halleyWhat repo has sqlite3?  maemopad+ requires it.00:01
czrhalley, not in extras?00:01
timelessTrykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt til fortsette venter.00:02
timelessAccents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off at carry on awaiting.00:02
halleyczr, I've only seen the -dev version, not the actual lib.00:02
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timelessTrykk OK for stop skript nC%, eller Avbryt for C% fortsette venter.00:02
timelessAccents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off to carry on awaiting.00:02
timelesshow's that sound? :)00:02
czrhalley, hmm. is it on the device then?00:03
czrthe packages that are present on the device are not present in the sdk sometimes00:03
czrI always failed to see the logic in that, but I'm only a sad luser.00:03
timelessusually legal messes :)00:04
halleynot in "show installed applications" even under redpill00:04
timelessEt skript pC% denne siden kan vC&re opptatt, eller det kan ha sluttet C% svare. Trykk OK for stopp skript nC%, eller Avbryt for C% fortsette venter.00:04
timelessA the script at this end can be absorbed , or facts able have closed to answer. Accents FAIR ENOUGH for halt the script now , or Cut off to carry on awaiting.00:04
timeless(that first sentence was written by the localizer)00:04
czrhalley, ii  libsqlite3-0                                   3.4.1-1osso3                       SQLite 3 shared library00:04
czrhalley, device running os2008, dpkg -l | grep sql00:04
halleyOh, didn't look in the Ls silly me.00:05
timelessis on the device00:05
timelesswell, the result of that anyway :)00:05
czrone result of that :-)00:05
* czr pokes timeless00:05
timelessthe control file specifies libsqlite3-0 and libsqlite3-dev00:05
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timelesspresumably dev didn't make it :)00:06
timelessijon: ping00:06
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czrit's not required on the device.00:06
timelessplease consider the russian00:06
timelessczr: dev? sure00:06
czrbut I guess it's in free/extras.00:06
czrtimeless, why would it be?00:06
halleyNext-- how to find japanese fonts, and input method?00:06
halleyThe maemocjk page looks promising but stale after google summer of code.00:07
halleyDon't know if that's the route for chinook or not.00:07
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timelesshalley: complain to browser-extras for not offering fonts :)00:08
timelessczr: so, back to russian00:08
timelesscan you convert bz's suggestion to cyrillic?00:08
* timeless pokes lardman00:09
lardmananyone know where I can find gcc-3.4.x for Mandrake?00:09
kaltsihm was there something with the libsqlite3-0.. it seems to be in the sdk repo with the -dev00:10
lardman~lart Mandrake/Mandriva for neither having new nor old program versions00:10
* infobot chops Mandrake/Mandriva in half with a free Solaris 7 CD for neither having new nor old program versions00:10
timelessthe xref says chinook has /some/ part of sqlite00:11
timelesstoo bad for me, my browser just crashed00:11
kaltsitimeless: what's missing?00:11
kaltsiok the sqlite3-doc00:11
czrtimeless, unf not really. I don't write cyrillic. reading is possible (slow but possible), writing not.00:12
czrtimeless, also I'm crap at russian grammar as it is. never studied the language00:12
timelesscan you repeat it and ask the last .ru (ijon) to write it? :)00:12
sp3000timeless: can you explain what script having stopped responding means in the en strings? :)00:12
sp3000I mean the script can stop the browser responding, but the script not responding to things wouldn't tend to hurt more than the document's interaction00:13
timelesswell, um.. so...00:13
sp3000which makes me wonder where it came from00:13
czrtimeless, not really :-).00:13
timelesspractically speaking, if the script is running the browser as we hacked it may try to stop the script00:13
halleyI wish there was a maemopad+ that didn't rely on a database.  Flat files are so much easier to deal with.00:13
czrtimeless, but keep your eyes open for other ru-speaking. I know there are some00:14
* timeless repokes ijon00:14
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timelessijon_: are you alive? i'm looking for someone to encode a word (reagirovat) in cyrillic00:17
timelesssp3000: anyway00:18
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timelessthe way things wokr in gecko00:18
fysadoes /etc/network/if-up.d/ work?00:18
timelessif operation foo starts00:18
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timelessand is stupid enough to try to suspend00:18
timelessit suspends by getting stuck in the C stack until the thing that is now being processes finishes00:18
timelessif you have slowscripts in two windows00:18
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timelessthen the script in the first window will not function at *all* until the slow script in the second window completes00:19
timelessin this stupid edge case, the document not responding hurts more than just itself00:19
timelessin some quasi ideal case, other things may be able to respond00:20
timelessbut in standard gecko, practically speaking *nothing* but the script is running until the slow script completes00:20
timelessit kind of depends on how strangely things operate00:20
timelessnote that it's not supposed to be "document"00:21
timelessproperly it's "connected window set"00:21
halleyHm, I don't like the topedge buttons being basically unreachable if the screen is popped up.00:21
timelessif window 1 opens window 2, they're "connected"00:21
timelesswhich means while a script is running in window 2, window 1 should not be allowed to respond to yuou00:21
timelessan iframe in window 2 would stop an iframe in window 100:21
sp3000right, it's the language rather00:22
* czr sees timeless working on his 24/7 :-)00:22
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db48xI think we should scrap the single threaded cooperative multitasking part of javascript00:22
czrtimeless, you're destined to fail though. I just put on some more coffee :-)00:22
timelessczr: i'm actually 24/6+ something00:22
derfWe should scrap the single threaded cooperative multitasking part of everything.00:22
czrtimeless, ah, you need more training then :-)00:22
timelessi have a blackout period which is technically 25hrs (shifting)00:23
db48xthe problem is that it makes it more difficult to write correct programs00:23
czrderf, yes, I'm been telling people that the Linux kernel is shaite!00:23
* czr hides & runs00:23
db48xand javascript is supposed to be simple and easy00:23
derfdb48x: Hah!00:23
timelessderf: this was a promise web browsers made to web page authors00:23
sp3000not responding rather sounds like someone's poking at it and it's not doing anything00:23
sp3000but afaiui nothing's poking at it00:23
czrsp3000, it does indeed.00:23
db48xsp3000: that's a fair description00:23
timelesssp3000: in standard gecko if you click the window, nothing will happen00:24
timeless"it's busy"00:24
sp3000for the app, yeah00:24
sp3000but not so much the script00:24
db48xsp3000: the os is sending it requests to paint something, and it can't because it's too busy solving the halting problem or something00:24
timelessin hacked microb, it might do "something"00:24
timelessincluding breaking the web app :)00:24
czrdb48x, s/halting/turing/00:24
db48xno, halting is the correct word00:24
sp3000db48x: yeah but the script doesn't paint00:25
czrdb48x, it was a joke.00:25
alteregoThis home theme looks _hawt_ ..00:25
db48xsp3000: details, details00:25
timelesssp3000: eh?00:25
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timelesssp3000: technically00:25
derfsp3000: No, but nothing _can_ paint while the script is running.00:25
timeless"A script somewhere relating to this window is causing this and related windows to stop responding"00:25
db48xpacking a technically precise description of the real problem into a single sentance isn't going to help00:26
derfI have this problem with lots of sites that execute a ginormous amount of javascript on load.00:26
db48xthe sentance will be too long to be useful00:26
timelesstranslating that won't help matters00:26
derfIt will make the entire browser unresponsive for several seconds.00:26
timelessworse, the impl we have is amazingly broken00:26
timelessso, i'd rather not promise correctness we break :)00:26
db48xderf: yea, that's what this is about. if it goes on like that for too long, this message appears00:26
czrI've never seen any ecmascript implementation that wasn't fishy00:27
timelessczr: ecmascript isn't bad00:27
timelessit's dom that's fishy00:27
czrbut I haven't really been looking for couple of years. but they all were pretty hacky when I did the last research round00:27
db48xtimeless: is that because of that patch oleg showed us that I objected to?00:27
timelessdb48x: probably00:27
czrwell, ecmascript + the environment support for doing anything useful.00:27
sp3000db48x: I don't think it needs to be long to say teh script is stuck :)00:27
kaltsianything that can be confused with emacs cannot be totally bad00:27
timelessi objected first, i'm sure00:27
db48xtimeless: yea, probably00:27
sp3000db48x: but to me it now sounsd like trying to be technical ans missing00:27
db48xtimeless: you've been working with it longer, after all00:27
czrkaltsi, but can't be totally good either :-)00:28
kaltsi<3 emacs00:28
timelessthat one? :)00:28
sp3000db48x: which gets doubly horrible when you translate it to something where 'not responding' doesn't sort of roll off the tongue00:28
db48xtimeless: yea, that's the one00:28
db48xsp3000: yea, I understand00:28
timelessdb48x: my spec says you're supposed to freeze things00:28
timelesshe doesn't00:28
* timeless grumbles00:29
timelessdb48x: you're free to get it right00:29
timelessredfive had a windows impl00:29
timelessi'm not sure it's so bad00:29
db48xI figure we should separate the gtk main thread from the gecko main thread00:29
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timelessi had a proposal for something more fun00:29
timelessnamely each script "world" gets its own thread00:29
db48xso the outer gtk app can respond to events and paint even if the inner embedded gecko can't00:29
db48xcool, I think00:30
timelessbasically all js accesses to dom objects get proxied to the dom thread00:30
timelessbut if a script world gets slow. too bad00:30
timelessand if the user clicks a link in a page that was running scripts00:30
czryou do realize that using threads like this will make debugging close to impossible and waste a lot of memory?00:30
timelessthe page moves, and when the js tries to touch it, it dies00:30
db48xczr: so?00:30
czrjust checking :-)00:30
timelessczr: for one, we have a script debugger00:30
db48xczr: it won't make it harder for page authors to debug00:30
timelessfor another, i had patches to make it thread safe00:31
czrthat wasn't the debugging I meant00:31
db48xczr: because the runtime constraints for the page will stay the same00:31
czragain. I'm not worried about page/script authors.00:31
timelessczr: you're confused00:31
czrof course. but that's another issue :-)00:31
timelessdebugging spidermonkey crashes already requires an expert00:31
timelessn has at most one such person (me)00:32
czrand you plan to make it harder still?00:32
timelessthere are not more than 2 dozen such people world wide00:32
timelessthe gecko side would not change under my proposal00:32
timelesssince it's still single threaded00:32
czrI got that bit wrong then00:32
alteregoczr, this is what I've been playing with for the past 5 hours ^_^:
timelessall that changes is that js *only* on other threads00:32
timelessand must proxy to get objects from the ui thread00:32
timelessit's a perf penalty on dom objects00:33
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timelessit might be possible to offer some optimization where you can somehow get special access to a window's objects for a time period00:33
czralterego, what is?00:33
czralterego, the theme? you made it?00:33
timelessthat'd be annoying and require a lot of work00:33
alteregoczr, yeah00:34
timelessthe basic impl would require 100% proxying for dom objects00:34
alteregoczr, and a bunch-o-scripts to help create more.00:34
db48xyea, that would be a lot of work00:34
czralterego, ah nice. documentation on how to use them too? :-)00:34
timelessdb48x: anyway, i think my script world proposal isn't so bad00:34
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timelessthe only fun part is making sure to properly connect script worlds00:34
alteregoczr, Self documenting :P00:34
czralterego, you write it in COBOL? :-)00:35
db48xalterego: I like it00:35
timelessdbd48x: i think actually that script world connection is trivial00:35
db48xgood choice of background image00:35
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timelessgenerally if a script opens a window, the new window is forced to share the existing script world00:35
timelessand if a user opens a window, it gets its own script world00:36
alteregodb48x, thanks00:36
timelessthe fun connecting case00:36
alteregoczr, yeah .. Cobol .. pfft :P00:36
timelessis if you do <a target=b href=c>00:36
timelessand b lands insdie a different script world00:36
timelessbz might suggest banning that case00:36
timelessand i'm fine w/ that :)00:36
db48xisn't it already banned?00:36
czralterego, yeah, nice pic. too much contrast for regular desktop use, but since the device desktop is not regular, it's nice00:36
timelessit might be00:36
timelessi'mnot following everything00:36
db48xthat is, different domains have different namespaces for the target property00:37
timelessanyway, the other case is divorces00:37
timelessdb48x: same domain00:37
timelessload in one window00:37
timelessopen a new window00:37
alteregoczr, yeah. Looks sweet on the device. When I've finished the whole theme. (Probably a week or so) I'll point you to a one click ;)00:37
timelessload into it00:37
db48xoh, so the user opened two tabs to the same domain, and clicked the same link twice00:37
timelessthey now have two window,s w/ two script worlds00:37
czralterego, cool. I can take it for a sping then. chinook?00:37
timelesssomething like that00:38
timelessso far the two script worlds are "not connected"00:38
timelesswhich is correct, they should not "block" eachother00:38
alteregoczr, because of all the transparency ;)00:38
timelessbut if you <a target>00:38
timelessthen arguably they should "connect"00:38
timelesswhich basically means one script world (running thread) dies00:38
czralterego, btw, why is your contacts above the browser icon? :-)00:39
db48xprobably instead of 'banning' that case, we'd just add another check to make it pretend it didn't find an existing window with that name00:39
timelessit's an edge case, and a basic impl can simply ban it00:39
timelessanyway, the last bits are divorces00:39
alteregoczr, having said that. These scripts might be nice for the OS2006/770 guys. As it can generate a theme (mix in their desktop image) to give the illusion of transparency.00:39
timelessuser loads a new page in the top level frame00:39
timelessthat divorces it00:39
db48xor just kills it off and creates a new one00:39
alteregoczr, aesthetics. Circles are natural centre points ;)00:39
timelessthe other case is if the user loads a *different* site into an iframe00:39
timelessdb48x: steps:00:39
timeless1. load google.com00:40
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timeless2. click link that opens a new window (script link)00:40
timelessthat's 2 windows, 1 script-world00:40
timeless3. click a bookmark in one of those windows00:40
db48xczr: that's configurable00:40
timeless- that needs to create  anew script world for that window00:40
alteregoczr, it's like .. ~~ People are looking at Earth, un-aware that there's a colourful Borg ship about to destroy it ~~ It's a story see :)00:40
timelessyeah, it's actually a trivial operation (new script-world, point to it)00:40
czralterego, heh00:40
timelesstop level loads should always replace the script world pointer00:41
czrdb48x, where?00:41
timelessand if a script world reaches 0. goodbye :)00:41
db48xczr: in the control panel00:41
alteregoczr, panels under control panel.00:41
db48xtimeless: yea00:41
alteregoczr, if you look at the bottom of the dialog there's arrows to position them.00:41
czrmaybe I should try poking around the device one of these days :-)00:41
czrI still don't use these things for anything :-)00:41
timelessdb48x: anyway, that's pretty much it00:41
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timelessthere's a minor requirement for dealing w/ temporary merges between <xul> and window.content00:41
timelessbut practically speaking, that's not such a big deal00:42
timelessif a xul window pokes window.content, then the content script-world is blocked until the xul script finishes00:42
timeless(deterministic for a single execution of script)00:42
timelessas soon as the script finishes running, the content script world is unblocked00:42
timelessnote, that's fairly easy to do w/ jsapi00:43
db48xunless the xul script changes the content's dom00:43
timelessbecause the script in content might object?00:43
* alterego wonders what a tablet OS would be like with XUL instead of Gtk+ ..00:43
db48xyea, or nodes might turn up missing00:43
* timeless ponders00:43
fysamemory hungry ;)00:44
timelesswell, you have two choices00:44
timelesseither xul waits (bad)00:44
db48xlike, the script got a reference to a node, and then the xul script removed it from the document00:44
alteregoA lot easier to theme ;)00:44
czrtimeless btw, you aware of any open source english language checking tools? stuff that would go beyond just crappy spellchecking.00:44
timelessor xul is allowed to look, but touching results in content being killed00:44
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timelessczr: #foxymonkies and #macintosh work fairly well00:44
db48xbut I don't think we have any chrome that is invasive like that00:44
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timelesstelnet irc.mozilla.ort 6697, speak enough irc to speak bad english00:45
czrtimeless, err, something that could be used in an automated fashion :-) doesn't need to be perfect.00:45
timelesswait for correction :)00:45
timelessbut i know enough channels where people will correct your english00:45
* timeless normally spells English correctly00:45
geoffegSo when I remove the charger from my N800 running OS2008 i get an alert that says "Disconnect charger from power supply to save energy." WHAT?00:45
timelessdb48x: ok, let's handle xul00:45
geoffegWhat the *$#@ does that mean?00:46
timelessdom objects are again proxies00:46
timelessfirst access results in an exception00:46
db48xgeoffeg: the charger is still drawing power from the mains00:46
halleygeoff, unplug the wart from the wall00:46
timelesssecond access results in the other running script being terminated00:46
db48xall chargers work that way00:46
timelessfor the record, db48x is speaking en-GB00:46
geoffegdb48x: oh.. wow.. and they  want me to save a little power.. nice00:46
timeless"mains" is not valid en-US00:46
geoffegThat should read "Save electricity: Unplug charger from power socket"00:47
doc|workoh yeah, I put my n800 in to charge last night at about 11pm, at 7.30am it was still showing as charging00:48
db48xI'd hesitate to start labelling bits of english as 'valid' or 'invalid'00:48
halleyOkay, how does one add their own app launch icons onto the homepage/desktop?00:48
db48xgeoffeg: yea, that would work better00:48
timelessdb48x: EUNRECOGNIZED00:48
db48xtimeless: heh00:48
guerbykewl bluetooth headset works with N800+OS2008 (both listening and recording)00:48
guerbyone bugzilla down at last00:48
geoffegguerby: including using skype?00:48
doc|workanyone had that?00:49
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derfI think the word you were looking for was "idiomatic".00:49
guerbygeoffeg, I don't use skype but if maemo recorder works I assume everything will work00:49
timelessguerby: johan's responsible for that00:49
timelesshe should get around to resolving it00:49
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timelessguerby: if he doesn't, send him an email and ask00:49
guerbytimeless, is it for me?00:50
timeless(give him 2weeks past the official 2008-n800 release, unless you think he should resolve based on 2008-n810)00:50
timelessalthough, i wonder00:51
timelessdoes it have HSP yet?00:51
guerbytimeless, as I commented there everything works super great :)00:51
timelessif not, he might be keeping it open until it gets HSP00:51
guerbytimeless, ah ok don't know what HSP is, anyway I can check?00:51
timelesscertainly looks like bluez3.20 has some HSP00:51
halleyOkay, how does one add their own app launch icons onto the homepage/desktop?00:52
guerbytimeless, when I disconnected the bluetooth headset with the N800 OS2008 icon, the headset made a phone hang up noise :)00:52
timeless(be patient)00:52
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guerbytimeless, I just checked and 'Device detail' says Supported Profile: HSP when my BT headset is paired00:54
timelessactually, You'll see HSP support00:55
timelessvery soon and hopefully A2DP a little later00:55
timelessso maybe the right question is about A2DP00:55
timelessagain, there's clearly /some/00:56
timelessdunno how much00:56
timelessit's really up to johan00:56
timelesshe is fairly responsive in bugzilla00:56
guerbytimeless, may be A2DP indeed. Sound is not bad already00:56
timelessand knows what he's talking about00:56
* timeless doesn't speak bluetooth00:56
* timeless gladly leaves that to johan00:56
timelessdb48x: is chat in the spreadsheet temporary?00:57
db48xI had to close out and reload it00:58
db48xand everything from before that point is gone00:59
killfillukmp is missing "libbz2-2-1.0"01:00
killfillwhere do i get this?.. :S01:00
pumpkinbzip3 ftw01:01
pumpkinfor the wallaby01:01
killfillhm.. but i mean for os2008..01:02
timeless_monkey ftw is for the win01:02
_MonkeyOK, timeless.01:02
czrpumpkin, bzip3?01:02
pumpkinalmost as good as bzip401:02
* czr de-seeds pumpkin with a large trout01:03
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czrI actually thought that you were serious for a while there :-)01:03
kaltsikillfill: it's in the sdk repo but that should not really be activated on the device..01:03
killfillsdk.. hm...01:03
pumpkinbtw, why exactly does it claim the world will explode if I install bash on  my n800?01:03
derfNow that the arithmetic encoding patents have expired, you could do a lot better than bzip2.01:03
kaltsiit also means that konttori has been a bit lazy by not uploading that dependency to the extras repository :(01:04
killfillkaltsi: well i just tried to install ukmp.. :S01:04
kaltsikillfill: yes from the extras repository? , the sdk is without the /extras.. not very clear :)01:04
czrderf, not that much better actually.01:04
pumpkinwell closer to the fundamental limit :P01:05
kaltsipumpkin: because bash will want to replace busybox and all the world depends on busybox01:05
derfczr: We know a lot more about the BWT now, too.01:05
czrusing rzip is normally already much better than just plain gzip201:05
pumpkinkaltsi: can't they just coexist peacefully? it's just a shell, isn't it?01:05
czrderf, true. although I don't. I still remember the color pictures of BWT in dr dobbs when BWT was first published :-)01:05
kaltsipumpkin: in a perfect non-destructible world yes :)01:06
killfilli guess bzip should be on the main repo.. :P01:06
* killfill adding the other repo by hand01:06
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pumpkinso how does it blow the world up, kaltsi ?01:06
pumpkinI mean, doesn't it just add /bin/bash to the device?01:06
kaltsifirst slowly and then quite fast.. dunno01:06
pumpkinor if the package has crazy requirements, can't they just be relaxed?01:06
kaltsiwell it will remove everything like the hildon desktop and stuff before installing bash.. and then not reinstall the other stuff01:07
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derfActually, I haven't really looked at plain text compression since 2002, 2003.01:07
derfI wonder what's been going on.01:07
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pumpkinbut that seems like a package limitation, kaltsi01:07
kaltsipumpkin: yes certainly.. it's solvable01:07
pumpkinnot an inherent property of /bin/bash being present on your flash01:07
pumpkinah ok01:07
db48xhooray for package dependancies01:08
bill20r3bz2 is good, there's stuff that's slightly better, but nothing widely used.01:08
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czrbill20r3, rzip and lrzip01:08
czrand many others as well01:08
czralthough lrzip has stability issues with large datasets ;-)01:08
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czrso you might not want to use it for everything01:08
bill20r3 yeah, I dont consider those "widely used" , but that's just me.01:09
bill20r3how much better than bz2 are they?01:09
timelessturns out i actually got an Nb translation!01:09
kaltsiwhat's Nb?01:09
czrdepends on data set. lzrip basically gains from using huge windows and lzma over rzip. rzip gains from very large windows only (rsync-algo internally first, then bzip2)01:09
timelesswe misspell it "no-NO"01:09
timelessbecause we're idiots01:09
timelessit's nb-NO01:10
czrbill20r3,   some comparison data from some months ago01:10
bill20r3ahh.  so like for multi-gig files?01:10
czrbill20r3, my priority was working with virtual machine images01:10
czrbill20r3, and finding something that wasn't too slow mainly01:10
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bill20r3I looke around a little a few months ago.  our mail server logs are like 6g/day.01:10
czrlrzip is not included since it had stability issues, but rzip and some others are01:10
timelessanyway, it turns out my machined translation of Nb was only off by one character01:11
czrprobably for text files bzip2 is good enough, could be better though01:11
czrbut for large binary sets rzip should win01:11
db48xoops, xml parsing error01:11
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bill20r3wow, rzip is *way* tighter.01:11
czrbill20r3, ended up developing my own format for that project in the end. didn't find anything useful :-)01:12
bill20r3at least on that dataset.01:12
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czryes. the dataset is 100+ virtual machine images01:12
czrso some structure is inherent in it01:12
pumpkinhow well does it compress /dev/random? :P01:12
czrtext would be more difficult for rzip to optimize over, since the rsync algo isn't byte-precise01:12
czrpumpkin, 50%!01:12
pumpkinoh my!01:13
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pumpkinI need it to fit into one byte, unfortunately01:13
kaltsiuse lossy compression01:13
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bill20r3do the 'virtual machine images' include large blocks of possibly-empty disk space?01:13
pumpkinah, well, I'll wait for better compression to come along01:13
db48xdev/random compresses very well01:13
db48xall you need to record are the initial conditions01:14
czrbill20r3, not really, all images are sparse (do not include too much zero)01:14
bill20r3pumpkin, you can only get that kind of compression ratio with write-only compression schemes.01:14
derfdb48x: You must be thinking /dev/urandom01:14
czrbill20r3, there's some, but not much.01:14
db48xderf: perhaps01:14
bill20r3they're a touch on the lossy side.01:14
bill20r3ok, I'm out.01:14
derf/dev/random is supposed to continually inject sources of actual entropy before it will give you more data.01:15
czrnah. initial conditions = position and energy of all particles in the universe at the moment that compressing starts01:15
czrso it's pretty trivial. takes a lot of space, but .. :-)01:15
derfczr: I'm just guessing here, but I think recording that would take a lot of space.01:15
bill20r3that'd be read-only compression.01:15
czrderf, plus there'd be the issue of the state containing the result eventually as well..01:15
derfThat's not my definition of "compresses very well".01:15
* alterego starts crying at the wasted screen estate he finds.01:16
alterego10x720 pixels wasted!01:16
sp3000oh, yeah, I should flash something, shouldn't I01:16
alteregoThat's a line of _very_ small text!01:16
timelesssp3000: hey, last call for alkohol01:17
db48xalterego: plus the two columns down either side01:17
timelessif you want any more changes to fi, now's your chance01:17
czrtimeless, you still wasting time on that fi-blurb? :-)01:17
timelessi'm copying the blurbs into the files now01:17
czrah. my mistake :-)01:17
pupnikif any of you have some money to invest in speakers, check these out01:18
pupnik  VMPS speaker reviews....01:18
czrhmm. anyone know what's the shortest url to refer to a specific patch in
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pupniki love them01:18
czrneeds to be stable01:18
* timeless rotfl01:20
timelessthis rocks.01:20
sp3000czr: so do you prefer etenee hitaasti or kestää pitkään/kauan01:21
czrboth preferred for obvious reasons, but depends on the woman in question normally.01:21
* czr hides01:21
czrsp3000, what's the full version you have now?01:21
czretenee hitaasti is more optimistic01:21
sp3000Tällä sivulla oleva komentojono on jumiutunut tai sen suoritus etenee hitaasti. Voit pysäyttää komentojonon valitsemalla OK tai jatkaa odottamista valitsemalla Peruuta.01:21
db48xtimeless: 'that's a "fine and understandable" translation' reports my cousin, in re the russian translation01:22
czrI'm fine with that01:22
czrkestaa pitkaan is some form of swedisism, I'm pretty sure.01:22
sp3000timeless: I guess it's as fine as it'll gets. it's a bit different because I sure don't know how to express the line is taken and the script won't answer the phone thing ;)01:22
sp3000so it's stuck or taking a long time to complete, instead01:23
timelessjump to around 30mins into that podcast01:23
db48xtimeless: though the party of the third part isn't around any longer to comment further, as he has now gone to bed01:23
sp3000which will fly or won't01:23
timelessevery 90s or so into that stream you'll hear the announcer speaking01:23
db48xsomething about timezones and 'nighttime', not sure that was translated properly01:23
timelessbecause that was the best arrangement they could get w/ sony bmg01:23
sp3000the other part is s/komentotiedosto/komentojono/ (command file vs command sequence, so to speak)01:24
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_Monkeyi think db48x is the one who can't edit his01:24
db48xI'm perfectly capable of editing my01:24
db48xtimeless: my cousin doesn't trust her fluency, so she asked a friend who is russian01:25
sp3000can I edit yours too?01:25
kaltsithe internet said you aren't.. now who are we going to believe?01:25
halleyI think is the slowest domain on the planet.01:25
db48xhalley: from all the way out there, they're probably all pretty slow01:25
db48xsp3000: sure! :)01:25
timelessdb48x: i'm losing stuff in this scrollback, stick things into the chat view?01:25
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sp3000hmm, rhythmbox thinks backup.metadata on the N800 is a playlist01:26
* alterego yawns.01:26
timelesssp3000: yum01:26
timeless~sounds~ nice01:26
czrsp3000, it's an advanced media player01:26
czrhah timeless01:26
sp3000sounds empty :)01:26
czrin the void of N800, will anyone hear if rhythmbox plays a metadata file?01:26
halleyYou can't swing a dead n770 without hitting three "media player apps."01:27
GeneralAntillesWhat is this "n770" you speak of? :P01:27
czrshort for "not N770"01:27
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halleyGeneralAntilles, you know anything about maemocjk.garage?  And hildon's plans for japanese input?01:28
GeneralAntillesNo, why would I? :)01:29
alteregoI can really screw around with the themes ..01:29
halleyDunno, you seemed to know everything else last night.01:29
GeneralAntillesI'm limited to English and just a touch of Spanish. :)01:29
alteregoI can make my theme resizable me thinks ..01:29
alteregoMaybe also take up less room.01:29
GeneralAntillesWell, thanks, but that knowledge doesn't extend to foreign languages and whatnot. Sorry. :)01:29
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czralterego, push it out of the window to leave more room in the room? ;-)01:30
GeneralAntillesIt can join my bluetooth keyboard!01:31
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czrGeneralAntilles, small bt generals will result of that?01:31
alteregoI'm thinking make the application title bar smaller.01:31
GeneralAntillesSounds like a plan.01:32
GeneralAntillesMaybe put together a number of options for it, too?01:32
alteregoActually I'm just going to trim out the useless 10x720px in my theme for now.01:33
alteregoDon't want to go _over_ board ..01:33
halleyalterego, is there a howto for making themes?  or just hack one open and replace/edit?01:33
alteregoThat's insane .. It actually worked ^_^01:33
alteregohalley, I'm hacking one open and editing it. Quite drastically in fact. I'm also righting various scripts to help create themes so if you wait a week or two you might be able to use what I'm working on now :)01:34
infobotalterego meant: halley, I'm hacking one open and editing it. Quite drastically in fact. I'm also writing various scripts to help create themes so if you wait a week or two you might be able to use what I'm working on now :)01:34
alteregofucking infobot ..01:35
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czryeah, that is irritating01:35
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alteregoWhat would be useful is some kind of WYSIWYG editor for this stuff. Or a plugin for the GIMP that auto-generates a screenshot like my script does. So you can keep track of what it'll look like through the preview.01:38
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timelessdear world, the fruits of your labor can be found at:01:40
czryay. finally got the patch into ubuntu. bleh for reportbug not supporting broken MTAs ;-)01:42
alteregoSome of these numbers are botched.01:42
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alteregoThat explains this odd 12x50 pixel area that has no use but to look ugly.01:42
czrhmm. submitting a one line patch shouldn't take 1,5 hours.01:45
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* czr blames alterego for the distractions01:45
timelessok... anyone want to play a fun game?01:45
doc|workonce again, no, now put your pants back on.01:46
pupnikis it ...01:46
timelesssp3000: do you remember where the home page lives?01:46
czrreminds me of one xkcd, let me dig for it01:47
timelessit's in a private file01:47
alteregoOh, that's pretty. I've now shaved off 10x720 pixel area and everything looks perfect.01:47
timelessok, so... anyone want to play a fun game?01:47
alteregoI wonder what it was there for.01:47
timelessit requires tablet-browser-ui01:47
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alteregoActually, I know what it was there but it's not required in my theme me thinks.01:48
* timeless ponders01:48
timelessis the only thing that changes on the google page the logo?01:48
db48xtimeless: what game is that?01:50
timelessdb48x: figuring out what changes are necessary to make the home page look "localized"01:51
timelessi've thought about it a bit01:51
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timelessand i think the answer is that it's *just* the powered by logo01:51
timelessand the cool thing is, i got that translated a few weeks ago01:51
doc|workczr: heh01:51
db48xwith all those layers between main() and gecko?01:51
timelessthe uncool part is that i don't think anyone converted them from psd to png(?)01:52
timelessand i don't know how to magically use "the right file"01:52
db48xoh, you mean just by swapping out the logo on the startup page01:52
db48xrather than changing which page gets loaded01:52
shacka1why once I installed a program under a menu section, it keeps reinstalling under that section without asking me anymore ?01:52
timelessdb48x: i could do either01:52
db48xdoes it load a chrome url or something?01:52
timelessit's more evil than that01:53
db48xif so you can put the images into the locales and reference it by their chrome url01:53
timelessit loads a file path and lies01:53
db48xmake gecko do the real work01:53
timelessyou're right01:53
timelesswe do theoretically have chrome support01:53
timelessbut.. i don't know what "app" we have01:54
db48xwhat do you mean?01:54
* czr reminds himself _never_ again to press ctrl+enter when multiple emails are selected simultanously in thunderbird01:54
db48xczr: heh, yea01:54
czrmultiple times too01:54
* db48x laughs01:54
timelessdb48x: ok, you're right01:56
timelessthis is trivial01:56
timelessif i had root anyway01:56
* timeless cries01:56
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timelessdb48x, can you try this?01:56
timelesstake a random picture01:56
timelessstick it in01:57
db48xyea, I suppose01:57
* db48x hunts for a stylus01:57
doc|workwould the n800 hardware allow for the charging icon to show a charge level?01:57
timelessload chrome://branding/locale/foo.png01:57
timelessit shoudl load01:57
alteregoYeah .. These numbers don't add up ..01:57
halleyIs there an apt or dpkg command that will print all the dependencies for a given dpkg?01:57
inzhalley, do you mean an installed package, a package in repo or a local file?01:58
timelessapt-cache show ?01:59
timelessoh for a .deb01:59
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inzapt-cache show should work for packages in repos and those installed01:59
timelessdpkg -f01:59
alteregoSo .. Matchbox is the reason I don't have transparency in my application title bar O_O01:59
timeless              dpkg -f | --field  filename [control-field] ...01:59
timeless                  Display control field(s) of a package.01:59
timelessdpkg -f depends foop.deb02:00
inztimeless, read again, it's dpkg -f foop.deb Depends02:00
killfilljees. so many users does maemo have?.. the bandwith is still low.. :S02:01
timelessinz: yeah, i was just getting there02:01
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ dpkg -f apt/apt-doc_0.6.43.3nexenta3_all.deb Depends|wc -l02:01
timelessdocs don't seem to have depends02:01
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ dpkg -f apt/apt-utils_0.6.43.3nexenta3_solaris-i386.deb Depends02:01
timelesslibapt-pkg--3.11, libdb4.3 (>= 4.3.28-1), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.0.2), libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-4), sunwcslr, sunwlibm02:02
* alterego contemplates removing the close minimize buttons and making the statusbar bigger.02:02
fysaalterego: while you're at it, can you put the taskbar icons closer together so we can fit one more in there?  and make the a vkb like the stylus vkb but with slightly larger buttons, so we can thumbkey and see what we're doing? :)02:02
db48xcp: cannot remove '/usr/lib/microb-engine/chrome/en-US/locale/branding/Screenshot-129.png': No such file or directory02:02
timelessinz: while you're being helpful02:02
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timelesswhere is the browser's homepage on the device? :)02:02
alteregoYou know .. I'm going to remove the close minimize buttons.02:02
alteregoThey're kind of useless.02:03
timelessor does db48x need to use find/strace? :)02:03
shacka1does the os2008 player do video over upnp ?02:03
GeneralAntillesYes, shacka1.02:03
alteregoI only use minimize when I expect to go home. Which never works so I just hold the home key now.02:03
inztimeless, /usr/share/browser/home_page/index.html sounds right02:03
shacka1GeneralAntilles: thanks02:03
alteregoMaybe I'll keep the close button ..02:03
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timelessah /usr/share/browser/home_page02:04
GeneralAntillesClose is probably useful.02:04
shacka1GeneralAntilles: maybe I have to configure gmediaserver then, because it doesn't see it02:04
fysacan you change the functionality of the buttons, alter?02:04
GeneralAntillesI find myself using them both fairly often02:04
fysaor just remove?02:04
GeneralAntillesbut I could change my habits if it meant more toolbar room.02:04
fysai.e., one button with tap to minimize, double-tab to close?02:04
timelessdb48x: ok, and try changing that file when you're done :)02:04
fysa(or hold to close)02:04
db48xalso, why in the world doesn't copy work in the xterm02:04
GeneralAntillesBecause xterm is crappy and broken. :P02:05
alteregofysa, to a certain extent they are standard matchbox functions me thinks ..02:05
timelessanyone here have photoshop?02:05
halleytimeless, not a .deb I have, but a package I *want*; I want to see the dependencies before I actually install.02:05
db48xok, it worked as root02:05
db48xit was just a weird error message02:05
timelesshalley: apt-cache depends foopy02:05
* alterego laughs at everyone with they're small application areas :P02:06
* GeneralAntilles laughs at alterego's bad grammar. :P02:06
halleytimeless, thanks; and kick that timelyx guy outta here, he's screwing up my nick completes ;)02:06
alteregoGeneralAntilles, it's late ..02:06
alteregoThat's the second time in two days I've used "they're" instead of "there" though ..02:07
timelesshalley: that's me02:07
timelessi respond to both02:07
halleyIRC is rotting your brain.02:07
alteregoI'll post another screen shot when I've finished my buttons.02:07
GeneralAntillesTake the easy way out, and blame it on muscle memory.02:07
halleytimeless, I guessed as much.02:07
db48xtimeless: it either can't load the chrome url, or the image I randomly picked is too large02:07
GeneralAntillestimeless, bit of a weird bug with a new browser window on default homescreen. The search box is selected and the I-beam is flashing, but (without doing anything else first) a press on the center d-pad loads rather than bringing up the thumbboard.02:08
timelessit's not loading google.com02:09
timelessit's submitting your empty form02:09
timelessand that's *someone's* stupid idea of a feature02:09
fysamplayer is considerably smoother when I run from shell instead of gmplayer.02:09
timelessthe middle button has a number of conflicting behaviors02:09
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timelessone of them is <enter>02:09
GeneralAntillesThat's rather irritating.02:09
timelessand <enter> in an <input> = submit02:09
db48xtimeless: looks like chrome urls simply never load02:10
timelessdb48x: you sure?02:10
GeneralAntillesEspecially as the input is selected and flashing.02:10
db48xthe progress meter just spins02:10
timelesschrome://branding/locale/brand.dtd wfm02:10
timeless(not a very useful page, but....)02:10
timelessactually, it lies a number of times02:11
db48xah, heh02:11
timelessclaiming it's size 0, or latin02:11
timelessbut it's >0, not text/html, and utf802:11
db48xI was trying to open chrome://locale/branding/…02:11
timelessah yes, you're rustier than i am :)02:11
fysaman no kidding02:12
timelessand i haven't done this stuff in longer than the last time you did it02:12
db48xor just more tired02:12
timelessdoubtful l-b02:12
db48xsince the last time I did it was like last week :P02:12
sp3000hrmpf. my charger lead is being flaky02:12
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fysathe -benchmark argument is hardcoded into gmplauncher02:12
timelesssp3000: don't suppose you have photoshop?02:12
sp3000gimp does psh unless it's fancy02:12
sp3000psd even02:12
timelessif i sent you a psd, could you merge the psd over the stupid gray background of the microb start page?02:13
timeless(merge=delete current stuff and replace w/ each locale)02:14
sp3000possibly even02:14
halleygimp does photoshop5.5 psd, but no "effects" layers02:14
timelesssent to gmail02:14
timelessi presume you have the microb start page :)02:15
timelessif not, i can send you the image (but you can get it from anyone else here...)02:15
halleyIf you're trying to be OSS, you should offer .xcf file templates, or PNG layers.02:15
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timelesshalley: it's a scaled thing02:15
timelessso png layers is definitely wrong02:15
timelessas for xcf, i don't know or care02:15
halleyThen .svg02:15
timelessjust because i'm stupid enough to redo a theme mockup doesn't mean i want to be a graphic designer02:16
timelesssimilarly for just because i can pick apart someone else's artwork/theme/layout...02:16
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czryou can always become localizer instead of a graphica designer!02:16
* czr hides & shuffles the universe in order to increase the chances of being hidden02:17
czrstaying even02:17
GeneralAntillesWhy does the browser insist on bitching about "No homepage defined" when homepage is set to about:blank? :\02:17
timelessui specification? :)02:19
GeneralAntillesDoesn't make any sense.02:19
GeneralAntillesA homepage IS defined, as the homepage field isn't empty.02:19
timelessit's a ui specification!02:19
GeneralAntillesUI specifications should all die.02:19
timeless(they're not supposed to make sense.02:19
timelessand they never do)02:19
GeneralAntillesAs Nokia doesn't seem to know how to make them correctly.02:20
timelessyes well...02:20
timelesshaving worked here over a year, i'd have to agree02:20
timelessbefore coming here, there was this rule i had heard which i believed02:20
GeneralAntillesApple doesn't seem to have any trouble with UI specs (except, perhaps, following them).02:20
timelessit was something like "never let an engineer design a ui"02:21
killfillhey, ive just start openssh server. but cannot login. is root pass still "rootme"?02:21
timelesskillfill: did you enable r&d mode?02:21
db48xtimeless: yea, that works just fine02:21
timelessgeneralantilles :)02:21
killfillnever did before.. is it necesarry?02:21
timelessfor 2008, apparently02:21
timelessit's clearly a "Feature"02:21
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db48xwhat's the easiest way to take a screenshot in os2008?02:21
killfillwhat does r and b stand for?.. so i can google them02:21
db48xthere is no 'import', for some reason02:22
timelessor something02:22
killfilldb48x: with the load applet :P02:22
timelessscreenshottool is in chinook repo02:22
db48xkillfill: where is that?02:22
sp3000killfill: r&b mode?02:22
halley"rhythm and blues"02:22
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halleyI think you mean "r&d mode"02:22
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killfillah.. yes r&d.. :)02:23
killfilldb48x, in the repo..02:23
halleyAs in hacking- "research & development"02:23
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alteregoTheming stage 1 completedz02:25
hubis there a way to download the N800 firmware efficiently like with wget?02:25
hubI can't successfully do it with firefox02:25
huband it does not support resume02:25
GeneralAntillesScreenies, alterego?02:26
killfilli still cannot login from ssh.. :S02:26
fysaGeneralAntilles: did you find /usr/share/browser/home_page/index.html?02:26
czrhub, there were some torrents flying around ;-)02:26
GeneralAntillesWas I looking?02:26
czrhub, you might check the irclogs for this channel02:26
alteregoGeneralAntilles, yeah. Uploading now.02:27
hubczr: I'd rather avoid torrents02:27
GeneralAntillesThen you're stuck with direct, hub. :)02:27
hubczr: unless the images are signed02:27
czrhub, then no02:27
killfilljees.. postgres.. :P02:27
killfillnever took the red pil before.. :P02:27
fysamd5 it..02:27
czrhub, unless you can somehow convince someone else to provide you the image02:27
timelessdb48x: have you not sent my commercial self any mail?02:27
fysaI grabbed the image from thepiratebay, worked fine.02:27
db48xtimeless: probably not02:28
GeneralAntillesYeah, mine is from tpb, too.02:28
GeneralAntillesWorks fine.02:28
fysaafter downloading at 0.4KB/s all night and having it quit halfway through.02:28
killfillcannot get in.. :S02:28
doc|workso, anyone else noticed that charging isn't "completing"?02:28
fysacompletes for me -- I get "charging complete. unplug charger to save energy"02:28
hubfysa: md5 is like a crc02:28
doc|workwill try it again tonight02:29
GeneralAntillesLooking tasty02:29
GeneralAntillesI'd soften up the gradient on the toolbar though.02:29
timelessalterego: nice02:29
fysaI know what MD5 is.. :P02:29
fysathere's sfv also..02:29
fysaif you don't trust md5.02:29
timelessalterego: can you reverse the clock?02:29
timelessmake the black transparent and the blue black02:30
killfilltimeless: is R6d mode the same as taking the red pil?02:30
alteregotimeless, ?02:30
_Monkeytimeless, is there a way for the user to choose between rdf and atom feeds?02:30
halleykillfill, no02:30
timelesskillfill: no02:30
timeless_monkey forget me02:30
_Monkeytimeless: I forgot me02:30
alteregotimeless, make your own theme :P02:30
timeless_monkey forget me02:30
_Monkeytimeless, I didn't have anything matching me02:30
timeless_monkey forget timeless02:30
_Monkeytimeless: I forgot timeless02:30
timeless_monkey, _monkey?02:31
_Monkeyi think i am an annoying bot02:31
alteregotimeless, do it in priv msg next time :P02:31
timeless_monkey i am the microb architect02:31
_MonkeyOK, timeless.02:31
killfillcannot find info about this...02:31
hubfysa: I what is sfv?02:31
killfillhow do i enter r&d?..02:31
hubfysa: I was more thinking real signing like GPG02:31
timelessaltergego; aww :(02:32
GeneralAntillesalterego, make the gradient on the sidebar more gradual.02:32
killfill /usr/sbin/chroot /mnt/initfs cal-tool --get-rd-mode02:33
killfillis it this?...02:33
halleyMake that slope more slopey.02:33
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timelesscan cal-tool be run as a mortal?02:34
timelessthat seems scary02:34
alteregoYou should save it onto your tablet and view it full screen to see what I see :P02:35
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czrhub, md5 is not like crc btw.02:35
timelesscal-tool --get-rd-mode *reports* whether rd-mode is enabled02:35
GeneralAntillesHowdy, zerojayN800.02:35
czrused for similar purposes, but not like crc at all02:36
hubczr: just mildly more secure02:36
hubczr: and still a checksum02:36
sp3000timeless: yeah I don't know what the latest rev of the gb would be02:36
czrit's not a checksum02:36
sp3000bg even02:36
czrit has no "sum".02:36
timelesssp3000: bg?02:36
hubczr: it is call md5sum02:37
czrhub, the program is yes.02:37
halleychecksums are often used as digests; hashes are often used as digests; but hashes are not checksums.02:37
timelesssp3000: confused02:37
sp3000timeless: "the stupid gray background" :)02:37
timelesssp3000: the one you have in 2008 week 42/44 is official afaik02:37
timelessdo you not have that?02:37
* timeless wants to go home02:38
sp3000I think I want to charge for a bit before flashing :)02:38
czrtimeless, you're not at home? bad..02:38
timelessno kidding02:38
alteregoI should sleep.02:38
timelesssomeone get sp3000 the picture02:38
timelessso i can go home02:38
timelessgenralantilles: not true02:38
timelessif you're logged in, you get a very different page :)02:39
timelessand as it happens, if you aren't, you get one that has more js than the default one02:39
* sp3000 thinks on how to position the things in bulk ...something to do with html and css and taking a screenshot ... :D02:39
killfilltimeless: how do i enable my ssh?... :P02:39
* timeless chuckles02:39
timelesskillfill: you buying me dinner?02:39
timelesspostinst runs as root, right?02:40
killfillwell i already have.. but maybe tomorrow.. :P02:40
czror fakeroot, but yes timeless02:40
* timeless geos hunting for an empty deb02:40
* GeneralAntilles should test better.02:40
czrof course in SDK it's possible to run dpkg without fakeroot and as long as package doesn't actually attempt to do chown, everything will seem ok (or require "root" for anything)02:41
timelessArchitecture: all or any? :)02:42
czrtimeless, any in source, all in package file.02:43
czrlet me check02:43
timelessin control?02:43
czrany at least in my package02:43
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czrwill be replaced by the proper arch on dpkg-buildpackage02:43
czrall I think means that the package has no arch-specific parts at all02:44
czrcheck the source for maemo-repository02:44
timelessdoes ssh root@localhost work w/ r&d mode disabled if ther'es an ssh key?02:44
czrit is arch-neutral package02:44
czrso people say. haven't tried. you want me to verify?02:45
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sp3000I think someone said it did02:45
halleytimeless, why not ssh in as user and su up?02:45
czrtrivial to test, let's see what will happen02:45
GeneralAntillesI don't think it worked for me when I tried, but I was doing any detailed testing.02:46
timelesshalley: user has no password02:46
timelessand su kinda doesn't work until you enable a suer02:46
halleypasswd user ; echo>>sudoers ; passwd -l root02:47
halleySame scheme as ubuntu, macosx, ...02:47
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sp3000two bars, that oughta do02:48
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czris there a more recent image for N810 than 32-18?02:49
czr42-18 even02:49
timelessok, i need a priority02:49
timelessit's *only* a kernel change02:50
timelessso find someone you trust who has it02:50
timelessand ask them to send you just the kernel piece :)02:50
timelessotherwise you're wasting 100+mb of bandwidth02:50
timelessoh wait. that's probably me02:50
halleyI pulled the N810 42-19 last night.02:51
czryou assume I trust you! :-)02:51
czrtimeless, works02:51
czrroot login, with keys, with r&d disabled.02:51
czrsorry verf took so long, had to reboot the device several times. I don't use flasher that often :-)02:51
killfillczr: how does one enable r&b?...02:52
czrby getting a drum and a guitar02:52
czrand possible some personal issues to sing about02:52
halleyOr a sax.02:52
czror you mean r&d?02:52
timelesstry loading
czrkillfill, r&d with flasher.02:52
timelessnot sure what it'll do02:53
killfillwell i have personal issues.. not the instruments tho.. :P02:53
timelessyou're encouraged to dpkg-deb it :)02:53
czrtimeless, heh. and you want us to try it? :-)02:53
timelessczr: read first :)02:53
killfillwhat flasher?.. its something you do before flashing the device?02:53
czrkillfill, it's the program that is used to flash the device. the same program is used to enable/disable r&d.02:53
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czrkillfill, I'm assuming you're using linux to flash the device here.02:54
czrI've never used the windows program.02:54
timelesswindows doesn't let you twiddle flags02:54
killfilloh. yah.. i ment "what?.. flasher?"...  :)02:54
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killfillwell, its really necesary to do all this to enable the ssh server?...02:54
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timelesskillfill: i think "not"02:54
timelessyou could try this:02:54
czrtimeless, your clock is wrong ;-)02:54
killfillactually got freebsd here.. flash doesnt work.. ill have to wait to work tomorrow02:54
timeless1. install ssh02:54
timeless2. ssh-keygen02:54
czror maybe mine is. hmm02:54
timeless3. try installing the deb i url'd a moment ago02:54
timelessif it works, then, um, "you're done"02:55
timelessoh,... 2 needs another step02:55
timelessafter you ssh-keygen02:55
czrtimeless, your clock is off by ~2000 seconds02:55
timelessyou need to cat ~/.ssh/*.pub >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys02:55
timelessczr: which "your"?02:55
czrtimeless, on whichever host you built that package02:56
timelessswift-nexenta(deb builder), swift(workstation), or sanjay(webserver)02:56
timelesshow in the world can you tell?02:56
czrdpkg -x capture-root-0.1.deb .02:56
czrtar: .: time stamp 2007-11-28 03:33:39 is 2267 s in the future02:56
|tbb|has some1 succesfully paired a bt headset which working properly with the new os8, the ony thing i get to work is pairing it and change the volume by the headphone02:56
czrtimeless, "magic" ;-)02:56
halleyMaking an on a pocket device is useless; never let a heavy machine trust an easily-stealable machine.02:56
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GeneralAntilles|tbb|, mine answered and communicated with a SIP call just fine.02:57
K`zanTo those folks who cranked out Apps for 2007, those that are porting them to 2008 as well as those that put together the Development stuff:  THANK YOU!02:57
timelessczr: well, that problem will go away RSN :)02:57
czrhalley, maybe you confused what the .pub is02:57 doesn't mean that anyone will trust the pocket device02:57
|tbb|GeneralAntilles: have u modified anything on the bluetooth conf02:57
killfillstill dont get why did ssh behaviour change from os2007.. :P02:57
timelesskillfill: nor do i02:58
czrhalley, and we're mostly developers here. we're interested in using ssh to login into the devices from our regular desktops. not the other way around.02:58
GeneralAntillesNo, |tbb|.02:58
czrtimeless, not RSNE :-)02:58
K`zanI'm about convinced that BT headsets only work with cell phones...02:58
|tbb|could u use it with skype02:58
timelesswait, 2267s?02:58
czrtimeless, for the root .02:58
timelessso 37 mins?02:58
czrtimeless, there are other timestamps that are off02:58
czrtimeless, the control one seems to be the furthest away (2663)02:59
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ date02:59
timelessTue Nov 27 17:50:50 PST 200702:59
timelesscontrol was the file last changed02:59
czr!exec date02:59
GeneralAntillesDon't use Skype, so I couldn't say.02:59
timeless-rw-r--r-- 1 timeless webservd 377 Nov 27 17:42 control02:59
czrbleh :-)02:59
timelesstimeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date02:59
timelessWed Nov 28 03:51:13 EET 200702:59
|tbb|could u use it with kagu (a2dp)02:59
czrtimeless, well, I'm pretty certain that this host has proper time. so don't blame me :-)03:00
* timeless ponders03:00
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czrmaybe it's a timezone thing? that'd be weird though.03:00
killfilltimeless: cannot install your deb. :( it says "app incompatible"03:00
timelesskillfill: incompatible?03:00
timelessnote: i'm not a debian guy03:00
timelessi'm an evil hacker03:00
timelessgive me a few bits of talking w/ czr03:00
czrtimeless, you know by now that your package description makes absolutely no sense? :-)03:00
timelessczr: why does it say it's incompatible?03:01
czrit's in section admon03:01
czradmin even03:01
czrsection should be prefixed by user/03:01
timelessoh, should be user/admin03:01
czrin order for the Am to accept it without redpill mode03:01
czr'This package copies your /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys file to /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys.'03:02
* czr chuckles03:02
timelesskillfill: reload03:02
timelessczr: "oops" :)03:02
timelessit's late!03:02
czrno. It's funny :-)03:02
czrespecially when it continues with "This is used to enable ssh root@localhost."03:02
czralso the short package description isn't very good03:03
czrbut I guess the long one could "fix" that by being more sane.03:03
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timelesskillfill: have you made your authorized_keys file?03:03
* sp3000 wonders why his link applet thing is blank on second boot03:03
timelessi think at this point, it should install and "work"03:03
timelesssp3000: i used to get that all the time03:03
timelessgood to hear it's still present :)03:03
|tbb|GeneralAntilles: which image u run btw which device do u got03:04
timelessczr: ok, so how do i fix the short desc?03:04
GeneralAntilles OS2008 beta for N800.03:04
czrtimeless, "Copies SSH authorized keys from user to root"03:04
killfilltimeless: not really. you mean to generate it, and copy it on the desktop mashine to try to login via that?..03:05
timelesskillfill: you can either generate it on your device or on your desktop03:05
czrtimeless, you might also add that the copying is done when package is installed and the package does not provide any commands to do this after installation03:05
czrtimeless, or provide a README file describing this03:05
timelesseither way, for the package i've built, /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys needs to be on your system before you try to install my package03:06
czrtimeless, or, an URL to some stable webpage giving usage instructions for stupid lusers like me03:06
timelessczr: which makes the most sense?03:06
czrwell, you should test for the keys before mkdir /root/.ssh then ;-)03:07
czrand at least abort with an echo or something03:07
timeless"This is a dummy package it performs this operation at postinst,03:07
czrand document why package installation might fail03:07
czrmore or less smt like that03:07
timelessi presume that "exit" triggers failure03:07
czrit depends on your target audience really03:07
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timelessdo you object to me creating a proper /root/.ssh dir in the failure case?03:07
* timeless considered it and decided it wasn't interesting03:08
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czrI don't like packages modifying my system first and then deciding that "nah, won't install"03:08
czrespecially since the change is trivial03:08
timelessfair enough03:08
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timelesshow do i do two things instead of one (echo & exit)?03:08
czrecho && exit03:08
czryou might want to redir the echo to stderr03:09
timelessif test ... ; then03:09
timelessecho Wah >&03:09
timelessexit 103:09
czrwould lead to more readable script03:09
czrhmm. not sure about >&03:09
czrbut I guess you can test that out pretty easily03:10
czrI'd use 2>&1 but that'd be bashish03:10
czrbashism even03:10
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czralso, instead of using chmod, you should set umask at the start03:11
czrthat way your cats will create the files with proper protection if the old root keys don't exist03:11
czrand you don't end up modifying protection on /root/.ssh if it already exists03:11
czretc etc :-)03:11
Mikhohow easy would it be to get newer version (2.10 or 2.12) of gtk+ in maemo2.2?03:12
czrMikho, for 770?03:12
czrMikho, I'd think OS2008HE might have .2103:12
czr.12 even03:12
czrbut that'd not out yet. otherwise it's going to pretty painful03:12
Mikhoi can imagine03:12
MikhoI think i already tried it once half a year ago. The experience was probably painful enough to make me forget all about it03:13
MikhoI also failed to install gtkmm03:13
czrhmm. what's the version in 2007HE?03:13
Mikho2.6.10 was it?03:14
Mikhoit's missing some features03:14
Mikhooh well, I'll have to live without grid lines in GtkTreeView03:14
sp3000using an unpopulated dictionary doesn't seem to work03:16
czrsp3000, dict?03:16
derfWow, they managed to do 26% better than bzip2 using a _simpler_ compression algorithm.03:16
sp3000czr: for input03:16
derfYou don't see those kind of results often.03:16
czrsp3000, ah. i-m?03:17
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sp3000yeah I have no use for words I don't use :)03:17
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K`zanTrying to find a case for the n800 is sure exciting...03:20
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czrderf, where?03:20
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czrhmm. the order0 thing has been already used before03:23
czrderf, you don't happen to have access to the full paper?03:24
czrah. silly me :-)03:24
czrthere was a link on the page03:24
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czrah. yeah. it's not public.03:24
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derfczr: Yes, I have access to the full paper.03:25
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K`zanastro76: Checking, thank you!03:26
astro76K`zan, pictures with n800:
timelessczr: ok, i rewrote the script03:27
timelessno clue if it works w/ busybox :)03:27
derfBut I will tell you the gist, because it's really simple: They do a whole bunch of complicated stuff with deep theoretical insight, and find out that just doing BWT+RLE with a fast adapting arithmetic encoder is better than anything involving move-to-front.03:27
K`zanMost of these I see turn it from a pocket device to a briefcase device, sigh...03:28
czrderf, is the paper worth 25USD?03:28
derfAnd their clever algorithm which is supposed to optimally partition the output of the BWT into segments that can easily be compressed by an order-0 coder tells them that the optimal parition is... the whole string.03:28
derfczr: No.03:28
derfAt least, I wouldn't pay $25 for it.03:29
derf(please ignore the thousands of dollars in tuition and fees paid to universities that get me my access)03:29
* czr nods03:29
czrI've stayed away from BWT on most of my stuff. it's too slow for most of the problems I'm working with03:30
timelessczr: so does it work? :)03:30
czralso has pretty horrible cache-behaviour which I couldn't quite work out into any better access03:30
czrtimeless, give me a sec03:30
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czryou still have the useless postrm :-)03:30
timelesswhat am i supposed to d?03:31
timelessremove it?03:31
derfczr: Well, the timings they give are faster than PPMd, but that's not really saying much.03:31
timelesscan i drop the other files too?03:31
czrderf, indeed03:31
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czrtimeless, which ones do you have in your source debian/?03:31
timelesseverything you see03:32
czrthere is also a typo on the script. umast :-)03:32
timelessif you reload, i have just 203:32
timelessoh brother03:32
* czr thinks is using some shell developed for pirates03:32
timelessok, reload03:32
timelesstimeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% ls ~/nexenta/capture-root/DEBIAN03:33
timelesscontrol   postinst03:33
timelessthe package is now smaller :)03:33
timeless-rw-r--r--   1 timeless webservd     960 Nov 28 04:24 /export/home/timeless/nexenta/capture-root-0.1.deb03:33
timelessyum, tiny :)03:33
czrplease add "Copying is done at package install time if possible" to long desc.03:33
timelessany specific point in the long desc?03:34
timeless This package copies your /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys file to03:34
timeless /root/.ssh/authorized_keys at *installation* time (postinst).03:34
czrbefore .\nThis and after keys.. add ".\n" before that one line03:34
czrthat's ok too03:34
timelessreload :)03:35
czrit assumes that the person installing the package knows what postinst means :-)03:35
czrbut I'm ok with that.03:35
timelessis "installation" unclear?03:35
czrsince you're going for small size ;-)03:35
timelessbah, you bloated my file by 16 bytes03:35
czrthat's me. the master bloater :-)03:35
czr"add an icon to the package"03:36
* timeless rotfl03:36
timelessum, "no" :)03:36
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czrhmm. the line ending with FOUNDKEYS seems weird03:36
timelessit's missing an =03:37
czrthat's what I thought03:37
timelessthe line used to say ERROR, rewrites are dangerous03:37
timelessreload :)03:37
czrtwo typos03:38
czryou really should test the script at some point you know ;-)03:38
timelessi tested the original03:39
czrah. before I messed it up :-)03:39
timelessok, reload :)03:39
timelessThe optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The scientist says there is .3764666437 litres. The realist says "there's not enough". The doctor says "he's dead, Jim".03:39
czrI like the comment about chuck norris :-)03:39
halleyGeorge Carlin thinks the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.03:39
timelessyou mean jack bauer?03:40
timelessThe engineer says that the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.03:40
timelessJack Bauer found out where the glass was, who drank the water, and which government they worked for.03:40
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timelessczr: ok, so, at this point, i have a package that works? :)03:41
czrI haven't tried it out03:41
fysaAll while being accused of drinking the water himself, even though he was really really thirsty the entire day.03:41
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WillySillyJack Bauer ftw03:42
czrheh fysa03:42
czrtimeless, your timestamps are still in the future :-)03:42
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timelesshow do i  control timezone?03:43
czrtimeless, do a date; ssh host date; comparison to the hosts through which the files and the packaging thing goes through. should be enought to determine where the culprit is03:43
czrit's not timezone03:43
czrit's off by non 3600 second divisor03:43
czryou really have a bad clock in there somewhere03:43
timelesstimeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date; ssh swift-nexenta date03:43
timelessWed Nov 28 04:35:13 EET 200703:43
timelessTue Nov 27 18:35:13 PST 200703:43
czrthat's ok03:43
czror not. mine is something else03:44
timelesstimeless@swift:/export/home/svn/lxr-root/lxr-data% date; ssh tinderbox date;date03:44
timelessWed Nov 28 04:35:50 EET 200703:44
timelessWed Nov 28 03:44:11 EET 200703:44
timelessWed Nov 28 04:35:50 EET 200703:44
czrWed Nov 28 03:44:24 EET 200703:44
zerojayalterego: Are you sure that id3lib is included in Maemo?03:44
czrswift is wrong, tinderbox is ok03:44
alteregozerojay, /usr/lib/libid3  ;)03:45
czralso swift-nexenta is wrong timeless03:45
alteregoIt's definitely there.03:45
timelessswift is fast by 37mins?03:45
zerojayalterego: Okay, because i didn't see it in the list of packages. Cool.03:45
timelessok, um...03:45
zerojayNow you know why it's called swift. :)03:45
czrtimeless, if you use sudo, open a sudo - su term while you jump the clock back :-)03:45
czrtimeless, sudo is picky about the timestamps in the auth-files it creates03:45
timelessi don't use sudo03:46
timelessi use ssh :)03:46
czrthat's ok :-)03:46
czrI meant for "gaining root access"03:46
czrthere's one problem in the package btw.03:47
czralthough I'm not quite sure how to effectively fix it03:47
czrtimeless, suppose someone will install/remove/install/remove/install the package. what will happen?03:47
* alterego points czr to the window03:47
* czr points timeless to alterego's window03:47
czralterego, I have my own windows to worry about :-)03:48
alteregoBed time for me. g'night folks.03:48
zerojayalterego: Any luck with packaging id3lib?03:48
czrnight theme master03:48
alteregozerojay, I'll do it tomorrow after work.03:48
timelessczr: from my perspective, nothing interesting03:48
timelessin practice, your auth list will grow uselessly03:48
zerojayalterego: Awesome. Thanks. :)03:48
alteregoNo problem03:48
timelessi could use sort|uniq and friends03:48
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timelessshould i care?03:48
czrtimeless, yeah. I wouldn't consider it a major bug03:48
czrsomeone else with inspiration migh fix it03:49
czrI thought about it for 5 seconds, didn't come up with a proper way to do it -> ignoring it03:49
timelesssort|uniq would work03:49
timelessbut it requires *safely* dealing w/ temp files03:49
timelesswhich is non trivial at least03:49
timelessit can actually be done line at a time03:50
timelesscat $FILE|xargs -n1 maybe_add03:50
timelesswhere maybe_add greps || cat>>s03:50
czryou could create them under /dev/shm ;-)03:50
czrthat way if device is reset while you're isntalling the package, the files will poof :-)03:50
* timeless gets really scared03:50
czralthough I don't know how /tmp/ is arranged on the device03:51
timelessanyway, for people reading in the future, this is how you would do it03:51
timelesscat/xargs/maybe_add;maybe_add: grep||cat>>03:51
timelessit's actually fairly easy, but i'm pretty sure that'd require an actual script03:51
czractually a for loop using a newline IFS could do the trick03:53
czrfor key in `cat keyfile`; do03:53
czrah no03:54
czrone would need to escape the data going into grep.. hmm.03:54
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timelessgrep -- "$key" ?03:54
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czrgrep -q ^"${key}"$ dstdir/keyfile03:54
czrbut here ${key} would have to be escaped for RE chars before hitting grep03:55
timelessif grep supports it03:55
timeless(quite possibly a perlism)03:55
czrah. ^ and $ can be replaced with -x03:56
czrI don't think \Q\E works03:56
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czrinfact, a lot of the modifiers that we're used to don't exist in regular/egrep03:56
* timeless nods03:56
czrthe package is good enough to have my stamp of approval now :-)03:57
czralthough I haven't tested it03:57
timelesswhat's -w do?03:57
timeless     -w   Searches for the expression as a word as if  surrounded03:57
timeless          by \< and \>.03:57
czrallows the search to be surrounded by whitespace (and whitespace only)03:57
timelessegrep -F03:58
czr^\s* foo \s*$ basically03:58
timeless  /usr/xpg4/bin/grep03:58
timeless-F would work03:58
czrah. interesting. yes. maybe03:58
timelesssomething tells me we don't have xpg4/bin/grep :(03:58
czrthere's fgrep03:58
czrnot sure about the device, let me see03:58
czrit's there03:59
czr"No help available." -> success :-)03:59
timeless     fgrep - search a file for a fixed-character string03:59
sp3000timeless: mailed03:59
timelesssp3000: did it work? :)03:59
timeless(since i sent you the patch too)03:59
sp3000which one?03:59
zerojayWhat's the new root password in IT2008 again?04:00
timelesszerojay: it's not a new password04:00
timelessit just doesn't let you use it w/o r&d mode04:00
zerojayoh crap.04:00
timelessor you could try mjy package :)04:00
czrin all honesty, zerojay, you'd be the first person to actually try it :-)04:01
timelessyeah, that too :)04:01
czrso that you don't have any illusions :-)04:01
zerojayIf I don't respond in ten minutes...04:01
zerojay...reboot me.04:01
czrwill do04:01
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zerojayUnable to install capture-root.04:02
timelessdid it say why? :)04:02
zerojayRetrying in red pill mode.04:02
timelessthere's an error log in application amanger04:02
czrmaybe I should take the package for a spin04:02
czrah yes!04:02
timelessyou have to ask for the error log04:02
czrcheck the am log first zerojay04:02
timelessit's in tools>log iirc04:02
timeless(or something similarly hard to find)04:03
czrzerojay, you don't have authorized_keys in /home/user.04:03
czrzerojay, that's why it will fail to install04:03
czryou need to get your key into /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys first04:03
czrTHEN install the package04:03
czrshouldn't be any need for redpill-mode04:03
zerojayOk.. so I have to create the key...04:03
czryou don't have an ssh key?04:04
timelessyou can ssh-keygen on the device04:04
timelessi should probably generate one if ther eisn't one04:04
czrbut then you'd have to transfer the key outside from the device, which is bleh04:04
czrerr, no04:04
timelesssince the average case is a user who just wants to root their own localhost04:04
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timelesswhy not?04:04
czrI'm thinking of the implications of leaving the key on a predefined location on a mobile device04:05
* timeless ponders04:05
czrcause by stealing that key by a rogue application would allow _automatic_ access to that device as root04:05
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czrand you don't really want to make that too easy04:05
* timeless nods04:05
timelessotoh... if that key exists04:05
timelessand is stealable04:05
timelesswe have bigger problems04:05
czralso, you can't ask for passphrase during generation04:05
timelessbecause, e.g., i do that04:06
czrbut it's a user decision then04:06
zerojayScrew it, I just enabled r&d mode. ;P04:06
czrit's not something your script will automatically do :-)04:06
czrzerojay, noo04:06
timelesszerojay: aww04:06
czrzerojay, we need someone to test the package :-)04:06
timelessplease seriously, needs testing04:06
zerojayAlright, alright...04:06
* czr surrounds zerojay with fuzzy warm feeling04:06
timelessssh-keygen -t rsa04:06
zerojayJust because I like the idea of Nokians begging.04:06
timelessenter enter04:06
* czr pretends to be a Nokie for a moment04:06
timelesscat ~/.ssh/*.pub > ~/.ssh/authorized_keys04:07
timelessthen install04:07
* timeless hopes that's about right04:07
czrshould be04:07
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ fgrep "`head -1 .ssh/authorized_keys`" .ssh/authorized_keys|wc -l04:07
czrfgrep -c :-)04:08
czrthen remove the wc04:08
zerojayTakes a while to generate the keys.04:08
czrthat's normal04:08
zerojayYeah, I know.04:08
czr(slow cpu)04:08
timelessczr: ok, there's a blank line in my file04:08
timelessi guess that'll match all lines04:09
timelessand not be added04:09
timelesswhich is fine04:09
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ fgrep -n "`tail -1 .ssh/authorized_keys`" .ssh/authorized_keys|tail -104:09
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timelessczr: does busybox support functions?04:10
* timeless wonders what a function looks like04:10
czrtimeless, not sure. best you test yourself04:10
czrok ok. I'll test04:10
halleyMaking an on a pocket device is useless; never let a heavy machine trust an easily-stealable machine.04:10
_Monkeyi already had it that way, halley.04:10
* timeless doesn't even know how to write them04:10
timelesshalley: the question is: is it ok to let a pocket device trust itself?04:11
timelessthat's the primary task here04:11
zerojayk, keys generated, cat done. What now?04:11
czrtimeless, works: foo () { \n echo foo \n }04:11
halleyYou ssh to root@localhost?04:11
timelesszerojay: now try installing the deb again04:11
czralthough you'll have to be careful with variables and such04:11
timelesshalley: yes04:11
czrhalley, although you can also ssh root@n8foo from outside too04:11
timelessczr: much harder, have to find ip04:12
czrtimeless, no it's not :-)04:12
halleyczr, you can, though best practices locks off root@ entirely, and you sudo up from a user as required.04:12
timeless127.1 is so convenient :)04:12
czrhalley, yes, and linux is a variant of unix.04:12
timelessalley: best practices aren't found on this device :)04:13
timelessand out of the box, there's no password for user04:13
timelessbesides, passwords are bad04:13
timelessthey're guessable04:13
zerojaytimeless: Install failed. postinst: line 19: syntax error: end of file unexpected (expecting "then")04:13
czrthanks zerojay04:13
timelessoh oops!04:14
* timeless was switching syntaxes04:14
zerojaySubprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 2.04:14
czrtimeless, indent, indent, indent!04:14
czrzerojay, you'll get a new version shortly :-)04:14
zerojayI'm still in r&d mode.. does it matter for the moment?04:14
czryou'll be surprised as to how shortly :-)04:14
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czrwell. we were kind of hoping for the package to enable root access without forcing to set the device into r&d mode first. that's the whole idea in the package04:15
czrbut r&d shouldn't affect it.04:15
zerojaySame error.04:15
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czrhmm. does the device keep package cache?04:15
zerojayLooks like it.04:15
zerojaySaid 0kb to download.04:15
czrhmm. let me try the package on mine04:15
timelesskick it04:15
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timelessin redpill ode i think there's a way to whack the cache04:16
halleyI guess mentioning version number bumps would go unheeded.  ;)04:16
timelessthere's a check mark "clean apt cache" in red pill mode04:16
timelesshalley: i'm not writing a changelog04:17
timeless"fixed typo #32"04:17
czrsize 0.94 KB heh04:17
zerojaytimeless: It's already checked.04:17
czrInstall application? 2 kB04:17
timelessczr: should it say 1?04:17
timelessor 0?04:17
timelessi picked 2 because the thing i hijacked had a bigger number and 2 sounded good :)04:18
timelesszerojay: oh "Use MMC to download packages"04:18
timelessclearly the packages are on the mmc :)04:18
czrerror parsing depends list04:18
timelessczr: eh?04:18
czrtimeless, what will happen if you remove the fields that are empty in control at the moment?04:18
timelessshould i?04:19
zerojaytimeless: Already checked.04:19
czrthat'd from /usr/bin/dpkg-deb -f '/var/tmp/capture-root-0.1.deb'04:19
timelesszerojay: yeah, but that means that's where ti's caching it04:19
zerojayoh, ok04:19
timelessyou should be able to find it on /media/mmc1/ i'd bet04:19
czrI'll try it on cmdline04:19
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czrhmm. I'm hitting exit 1 without errors on mine04:20
* timeless fixes indentation of exit 104:21
czrhmm. running the script manually works04:21
timelessdid i forget to do "export"?04:21
timelessi think i need export FOUNDKEYS04:22
timelesstest isn't a builtin, right?04:22
timelesshrm, no, it's going to evaluate04:22
czrand I didn't notice that the exit code was actually 1 now04:22
czrsince the script was silent04:22
czrwhy is it silent?04:22
timelessok, new up04:23
timelessexport FOUNDKEYS04:23
czrtimeless, bleh. add exit 0 as the last line04:23
timelessif test -z "$FOUNDKEYS"; then04:23
czrit's not the export04:23
timelessoh yuck04:23
czrthe last test will fail04:23
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czrand that will remain the exit code for the whole script04:23
timelessoh right04:23
czryeah, give me a sec :-). I'll have to undone stuff first ;-)04:24
timelessi suppose we could write a version that could postrm04:24
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timelessbasically record which entries we add and then use some really evil magic to fgrep -v remove them? :)04:24
czrno you can't. too difficult04:24
czrwhat if used manually edits the key-list in between the two?04:24
czryou really want to handle that logic in a shell script?04:25
timelessi think it's doable04:25
czrit's doable. just not worth it04:25
timelessremember each line as they're added to a file04:25
timelessand then singly remove them04:25
timelessbut leave the file04:25
czrI just wish that there'd be at least some version of python on the device04:25
timelessof course, second install would complain04:25
* timeless shrugs04:25
timelessi'd have written this in perl :)04:25
czrI hate perl04:27
czrand don't get me wrong, I've written large programs in perl04:27
czrI hate it anyway :-)04:27
czrthe package installs now04:27
czrthe scenario that was tested was: /root/.ssh/authorized_keys existed already04:27
czrdevice is not in r&d mode04:28
* czr woots in silence.04:28
* sp3000 grumbles at im04:30
czrhmm. I wonder how difficult it would be to make a proper gainroot04:30
czrwithout all the r&d silliness and without touching /usr/sbin/gainroot04:30
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czrderf, the rleacs with fast adapt do have quite impressive gain. too bad they're almost twice as slow as bzip204:33
czrdecompression speed is 3-4x slower too04:33
czrderf, thanks for the link though.04:34
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halleyWow, what the heck is nw.qt ?04:39
* sp3000 flashes some more04:39
timelesssp3000: oh, do you not have access to corporate mail from home?04:39
timelessi sent your work address the patch...04:39
sp3000I don't04:39
timelessok, replied w/ patch04:40
* sp3000 tries again with correct image04:40
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* czr tries to find out the minimal way to divert dhclient generated /etc/resolv.conf to some other place04:44
timelesschroot ;-)04:44
czrsuggestions are welcome. ones not involving touching any configuration files are scripts are more so.04:44
* czr puts timeless in a chroot04:44
timelesscan i get home?04:44
czrmkdir ${HOME} :-)04:45
czrthen cd04:45
timelessi used to do HOME=/tmp/timeless; mkdir $HOME; cd $HOME04:45
halleyIs timeless still at work?04:45
czrpoor timeless04:45
timelesspoor? falafel closes @5am04:45
timelessit's 15til04:46
czrwell, soon the other places start opening up :-)04:46
timelessname 2?04:46
czrmac-donalds and hesburger04:46
* czr hides & runs04:46
* timeless throws "french fries" @czr04:47
czrreminds me of one funny thing04:47
czrin a bar/disco/restarurant back in shanghai04:47
czron the drinks menu they had snacks and everything04:47
czrthey also had "fried french"04:47
czralthough a nice jazz-lounge I used to frequent had "screw driver"04:48
czrnever tested it though.04:48
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halleyLots of mixed drinks are named funny/sexy names in US.  Not everywhere?04:55
czrthey are04:55
halleyscrewdriver = orange-juice + vodka04:55
czrpretty much everywhere04:55
czrI know what the drink is. that wasn't the point.04:55
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* timelE61i missed a drink?05:01
* sp3000 flashes some more05:02
timelE61iczr: so is package useful?05:02
czrtimelE61i, which one?05:02
czrit might be. depends on whether you're lazy enough and don't want to use r&d or don't have the cable & flasher3 handy05:03
czrif you can do r&d easily, doing that will be easier05:03
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sp3000what's the name of the submenu in 2007 where you have the cpl and backup and friends05:08
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czrUtilities? hmmh.05:08
* timelE61i is home05:08
czrdon't have 2007 handy any more05:08
sp3000tools or settings05:08
_Monkeysettings are never all the same.05:08
czr99% sure about that one05:09
sp3000settings in 2008, I'm thinking toos in 200705:09
czrhmm. /me shrugs.05:09
czrsp3000, how badly do you need that?05:09
czrI could always reflash one N800 with 200705:09
czrbut I'd have to reflash back and it'd be pita05:09
sp3000there's google image search :)05:09
czrright. tell me if you need me to flash though. I can do it.05:10
czr(the device has no useful stuff on it)05:10
sp3000 ...but05:10
czryou sure that's 2007?05:11
czrdoesn't look like 200705:11
sp3000hence the but05:11
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czrmost of the screenshots in the howtos are not from the version they should be :-)05:11
czrthat seems better05:11
timelE61iYeah, you should know better than to trust a maemo tutorial05:12
* czr knows better than he wants to admit05:13
czrI'm glad to say that all my material is up-to-date at least.05:13
czrat least the stuff I've actually read properly through. but screenshots, captures and source codes are all up to date.05:13
timelyxspeaking of which05:13
timelyxwanna go another round?05:13
* |R flashing 2008b05:13
czrnothing personal. too busy & I really need a rest from all that crap right now :-)05:13
czrI'm anticipating another flood of updates on wed/thursday05:14
czrI'm trying to make a process for setting up a local repo05:14
czrand doing DNS-based diversion05:14
czrso that one can use the automatic install scripts as they are, but all installation will be done from stuff that is available on localhost05:15
czr(which will carry the mirror of repo.meemoo)05:15
czrand the setup will support dhcp-operation on the host, and require zero changes inside sbox targets even if the machine is taken around in different networks, etc.05:16
timelyxcan someone w/ an n800 handy check something for me?05:18
timelyxwhat's the official description on the tablets-dev site for the 2008 flash?05:19
czrtimelyx, which version?05:19
timelyxi suppose05:19
timelyxdon't download anything, ideally once you give it an id it should tell you the versions and descriptions05:20
timelyxalthough iirc there's also a readme05:20
czrthat screen is really annoying on N800!05:21
czr1) the input field is not really visible with microb05:21
czr2) once you touch in it, it will popup the toolbar + vkb05:21
czr3) they will cover that field05:21
czrthen you scroll it back into visibilty05:21
czrand that triggers the VKB to hide05:22
czrwtf :-)05:22
czrbut I assume that you don't actually need people to use the N800 to access that URL, right? :-)05:22
timelyxthe vkb impl is fairly stupid :)05:22
czr"really" :-)05:22
timelyxdolske was using firefox to download it05:22
czrgot the privmsg?05:23
timelyxcool, they fixed it :)05:23
timelyxThe first beta IT OS 2008 release for Nokia N80005:24
timelyx"first beta" is in bold05:24
timelyxqgil/ferenc ++05:24
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* timelyx sent an sms to qgil complaining about that monday (?)05:24
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* sp3000 should probably take a nap05:26
czryou running against deadlines once more?05:26
czror this is a more of a hobby nowadays? :-)05:26
pressbuttan2winIs this a good place for troubleshooting?05:26
czrpressbuttan2win, depends in you come with your own rifles or not05:26
czrpressbuttan2win, sure, shoot.05:26
pressbuttan2winI just got a new N80005:26
pressbuttan2winand I seem to have trouble playing audio05:26
czrin=if even.05:26
pressbuttan2winmp3s, etc.05:26
pressbuttan2winSays "Unable to perform operation. Try again."05:27
czr1) does it always do that05:27
pressbuttan2winyes always05:27
timelyxdid you try the n800's normal mp3s?05:27
czr2) is there a specific source where you have the mp3s in05:27
timelyxand which os are you using?05:27
czr3) have you tried the stock files that come with the device05:27
pressbuttan2winYes, stock mp3 on the device05:27
czrthey don't work?05:27
pressbuttan2winas well as one from my SD card that I tried05:27
pressbuttan2winITOS2007, I think it's the latest rev05:28
timelyxgo to control panel,05:28
timelyxabout device05:28
timelyxsomewhere in the top it'll give the version05:28
pressbuttan2winI'm going to try 2008 as soon as I get it downloaded, but I can't seem to find information about anyone having a similar problem05:29
timelyxi just got home. at work i could try searching the code to find out what the error you got means05:29
pressbuttan2winExcept for a chatlog from this channel, hehe.  And their question went unanswered05:29
pressbuttan2winNow, FM Radio works fine05:29
pressbuttan2winif it's piped over the speakers05:29
pressbuttan2winbut if you try to change to headphones05:30
timelyxyou installed fm radio?05:30
timelyxsomeone complained that the fm radio pretty much broke normal sound stuffs05:30
pressbuttan2winThough, mp3s didn't play prior to FM radio either05:30
timelyxok. very important05:30
timelyxyou could try installing ukmp or mplayer or the other one05:31
timelyxand see if those work05:31
pressbuttan2win"Audio output switching failed"05:31
pressbuttan2winif you try to hit the icon button for FM Radio05:31
timelyxthe fm radio is "magical"05:31
pressbuttan2winok, I'll see about getting mplayer.  Though, I wonder if something more sinister is going on here. :-p05:31
* sp3000 just suggests the magical tonic de reboot for everything05:31
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timelyxpressbuttan2win and the other guy bother indicated that didn't fix it05:32
pressbuttan2winI drank that tonic 20 minutes ago ;)05:32
sp3000without charger plugged in, too? :)05:32
pressbuttan2winWill try that :-[05:32
ekim|n770i want to format one of the partitions on my card05:32
timelyxi think that "Audio output switching failed" might make sense05:32
sp3000with charger plugged in it just pretends.05:32
timelyxbut i'd have to be at work to read it05:32
ekim|n770how can i do that simply05:32
* czr bangs head against wall05:33
* pupnik plays Wagner05:33
pressbuttan2winHmm, I think sp3000 may have a point...05:33
pressbuttan2winThat did it.05:33
czrI wonder where my /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf went..05:33
pressbuttan2winI had no idea the charger made things finicky like that.05:33
pressbuttan2winThanks czr and sp300005:34
pressbuttan2winand timelyx :-D05:34
ekim|n770if nobody will tel me I'm going to sleep05:34
czrpressbuttan2win, np & have fun05:34
* sp3000 blames wedged $daemon or some other magic state05:34
* czr tel's ekim|n770 05:34
ekim|n770plz tell05:34
pupnikekim|n770: i format on a card reader05:34
GeneralAntillesWith a computer, ekim|n770.05:34
ekim|n770actually on the device05:34
pupnikfdisk i think, then mk*fs05:35
pressbuttan2winOh, and one last question.  Anyone have any experience with WEP+PEAP?05:35
pressbuttan2winSeems it's not supported out of the box05:35
ekim|n770my fat32 partition is messed up05:35
czrpressbuttan2win, dig for maemo-devel archives and search using PEAP05:35
sp3000not to be confused with mkf***s05:35
pressbuttan2winAlright, thanks05:35
czrpressbuttan2win, I don't think PEAP is supported. could be some legal issues with cisco and such05:35
pressbuttan2winSucky :(05:35
czrpressbuttan2win, but I remember seeing some mails about it, check the archives first05:36
pressbuttan2winI think I saw that WPA with PEAP is available05:36
czrI might be talking up my ass.05:36
ekim|n770ok....if you don't feel like telling me05:36
czrekim|n770, it's formatted using the same tools that one would use on regular linux desktops (on the command line that is)05:36
czrekim|n770, fdisk to partition the card (if necessary), then mkfs to create the filesystems on each partition, depending on what kind of filesystem you want to create05:37
czrmkfs.vfat might be a good starting point for you05:37
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czryou'll need to get fdisk & that program on the device first. seeing as you have "n" 770, you'll need to hunt for the tools in prepackaged format.05:37
ekim|n770I already did all that05:37
czror you could send an email to maemo-users05:37
ekim|n770i want to format an existing partition05:38
pupnikgood answer czr05:38
pupnikthen mkfs on that part05:38
czrjust make sure it's not mounted at that moment05:39
czr(use df -T and umount as root to get rid of it if it is)05:39
ekim|n770how do I find out the mount point05:39
czruse df -T.05:39
czrit will list all mount points05:39
czr-T will add the filesystem type. it will be vfat for the memory card05:40
czrthe right-most column is the mount point05:40
czrif df -T doesn't work, try just 'df'05:40
ekim|n770so umount /media/mmc105:41
ekim|n770then how do I format it05:41
czrsounds amount right05:41
czrhmm. what was the device from which /media/mmc1 was mounted from?05:42
czrthat's the left-most column of df05:42
czrif you still have that visible05:42
czrstarts with /dev/ something.05:42
czrthat's the first partition on the card05:42
czrprobably the only partition on that card too :-)05:43
czrmkfs.vfat /dev/mmcblk0p105:43
czrthat will create a new vfat filesystem on that partition05:43
czr(which is sometimes called "formatting", esp in windows)05:43
ekim|n770i know what all this stuff means05:45
ekim|n770the card has two prtitions05:46
ekim|n770each about 500 megs05:46
ekim|n770one ext2 one fat3205:46
ekim|n770but somehow my fat partition got corrupted05:47
czrfdisk -l /dev/mmcblk005:47
czrthat will give you a list of partitions on the block device05:47
czrusing the partition table on the device05:47
czrand that will probably help you decide which partition to mkfs then05:48
ekim|n770i dn't have fdisk05:49
ekim|n770and I cant get it05:50
ekim|n770because it breaks tons of stuff05:50
ekim|n770well i!!m going to sleep05:50
* czr nods05:50
ekim|n770ill fix it in the morning05:50
ekim|n770g'night czr05:51
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oilare you also having problems with memorycards? my 8GB hdsc has been lost by os2008 couple of times now.05:53
zerojayYeah, about to ask the same thing.05:53
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timelyx"you"? while i'm asking questions :)05:54
czrwhat questions?05:54
timelyx<what does "x" mean in the last sentence containing "x"?>05:55
czrbleh. messing up dhcp client beyong recovery is not fun. /me kicks ISC for producing such crap05:55
czrtimelyx, why do you ask?05:55
oiltimelyx: I can not see the mount anymore05:55
oiland there were some FAT errors on dmesg, but I did not copy those when I had the problem.05:56
timelyxhalley: btw, did you get the typo in screw_driver?05:57
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* czr hates services which don't remove their pid-files06:04
czron shutdown06:04
|Ranyone having weird things happen with SIP? i can get it to connect, call, and talk... and the next call it just dies when the other end answers... the next one it won't even ring it. and so on randomly06:07
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oilir: did this happen with previous version of os? and which sip provider are you using?06:08
|Roil : right now it's just an internal test through my asterisk06:08
|Rn800 -> asterisk -> other-SPA06:08
|Roil : and i actually had it working a while back on OS200706:09
oilcould there be something that the spa/asteris does not send bye message ?06:09
|Rbut didn't do any extensive testing, and yesterday it didn't work on OS2007, so i flashed 2007 again, didn't work... (video chat was dead too for some reasons, i though i had a conflict with something i had installed since)06:09
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|Rand so ... i figure why not try OS 2008 beta... video chat is back #1 with a friend but SIP is completely random :|06:10
|Roil : if it wasnt sending bye i guess that unregistering/registering would fix it ?06:11
oilwell, if you had already yesterday problems with os2007. then I'd check more of the asterisk.06:11
|Rbut it doesn't seem to do anything to help and i see the un/register in asterisk -rvvvvv06:11
oilif the case is so that the n800 or the asterisk server stil thinks that there is an ongoing call and therefore does not allow new call.06:12
|Ryeah, i ll look a bit more into it, just wondering if anyone had an idea as a have a pretty basic setup right now... just a sip account in a context that just dials another sip handset06:12
oiland there an timeout. so the problem should resolve itself in time.. for each call06:12
|Ri'll try to see if i detect a timeout pattern...06:13
|Rbut then... restarting asterisk & the n800 apps would fix it too06:13
|Rurhm :|06:13
oilcheck also if you are using stun.06:13
|Rit's checked06:13
|Rshould i remove it?06:13
oilfor testing yes. might be that the stun server does not answer and causes delays.06:14
|Rhow does STUN work? never looked into it (it's off, testing...)06:15
oilbasically the client (behind NAT)  sends an packet to the stun server (which has to be on the public internet).  STUN server resolves the public IP of the terminal from the tcp headers and returns the public IP back to the terminal06:16
|Roh ok, plain simple :)06:17
oilthen the terminal can put this public ip to the sip headers.. so that the calls from the public internet  can be reached by the terminal behind the nat06:17
oilyes. it's pretty simple :)06:18
|Rok, i shutdowned the n800, restarted asterisk... restarted the n800...06:18
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oilare you runnig asterisk on real computer or openwrt?06:19
|Rwhich is my gateway06:19
oilok. I'm running on openwrt, which is also the gateway06:20
|Rit rang and when i answered it died...06:20
oilhmm.. better to take a look of the sip messages with wireshark or so, it might give a clue06:20
czrbleh. too tired to continue this crap. night sp3000 & timeless06:21
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|Ri get: -- Registered SIP ... -- Save useragent "Telepathy ... -- Got SIP response 405 "Method Not Allowed" ... (which everyone gets) -- Executing 1234@home Diap( SIP/n800 ... SIP/spa) in new stack -- Called spa -- SIP/spa ... is ringing06:21
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|RSIP/spa answered SIP/n800... -- Native bridging SIP/n800 and SIP/spa06:22
|Rand then something weird :06:22
oildoes a call from n800-> spa work?06:22
|Rno, that's what i'm trying :(06:23
|R == Spawn extension (home, 1234, 1) exited non-zero on 'SIP/n800-081ee588'06:23
oilboth ways does not work?06:23
|Rlet me try the other way06:23
|Ruhm weird06:24
|Rthe other way i answered, it didn't die, but i didn't get any sound on the n80006:24
|Rsecond time it works...06:25
oilthen it could be the codecs as well. try if you can define spa to use only g711u codec06:25
|R3rd time same as 1st heh...06:26
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|Ruhm, i didn't force any should be on?06:27
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oilI'm thinking if the sip/sdp goes wrong in someway and therefore the clients can not negotiate common codec. then just to check, drop all other codecs and try again :)06:28
|Ralso any idea what the "user for PSTN" option is ?06:28
oileg. going to as simple configuration as possible06:28
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hexa_humm seems like I can't foward in ukmp.. only backward seems to work :( forward pauses .. anyone else having the problem?06:34
hexa_haha ok nervermind clicking juste right of the icon works :)06:35
oilhexa_: hoho :)06:35
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|Roil : uhm, disallow=all, allow=g711u : [Nov 27 23:41:06] NOTICE[9690]: chan_sip.c:5331 process_sdp: No compatible codecs, not accepting this offer!06:41
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oil|R: huh? g711 should be the fallback codec. how about g711a?06:42
|Rulaw seems to pass06:42
|Rlet's try g711a :)06:42
|R(pass as in: rings then die on answer...)06:43
oilone thing you can do is to take tcpdump while calling from both of the devices. then check what they codecs they offer on the sip/sdp message06:43
|Rshould i easily be able to read it in clear text?06:43
|Rtcpdump running ...06:43
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oilif you have wireshark, it's quite easy to read.06:44
|Rg711a same as g711u06:44
|Ryep, i think i already apt-got it :)06:44
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oilapt-got it. hih :)06:44
|Rargh, first test it actually works all the way through ;)06:49
|Ruhm, can't even find my password06:52
pupnikWed Nov 28 ... 16 days06:53
|Rpupnik : ? :)06:54
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|Roil RTP seems to be PT=ITU-T G.711 PCMU (with no allow/disallow options)06:55
* pupnik uses Wile-E-Coyote Acme ultra super electro magnet to suck a N810 from thousands of miles away06:55
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|Rpupnik : i thought it was on the 15? :)06:55
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oilir: that should be ok. hmm. currently I have no idea what goes wrong.06:56
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pupnikoh .  17 then06:56
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|Roil : hehe me neither, thanks for the tips though :)06:56
oilir: no prob. sorry I could not help you throught06:57
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pupnik_we all need vmps RM30s07:27
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|Rargh osso-xterm on 2008 doesn't have a white on black !?07:28
zerojayPeople use white on black?07:28
|Ri do07:28
|Rless strain on the eyes for me :)07:28
GeneralAntillesIt does, too.07:28
GeneralAntillesJust switch the colors in prefs.07:28
zerojayoh wait.. I meant black on white, never mind.07:28
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|RGeneralAntilles : i only get an option for background, not foreground (black on black is a bit hard for me ;)07:29
|Rzerojay hehe :)07:29
GeneralAntillesYou're a dirty liar.07:29
GeneralAntillesI changed it07:29
GeneralAntillesI swear!07:29
GeneralAntillesTap the font07:29
GeneralAntillesThen you get font color07:29
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* |R is stupid passed midnight... uhm, maybe always actually07:30
zerojayAnyone awake with a Chinook SDK handy?07:33
|Ri have a basic scratchbox ?07:37
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|Rxterm in 2008 has less option than the last one :(08:11
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truenthey guys , how do i connect to a known AP on the command  line?08:14
truentn800 but i doubt that matters08:15
pupnikMr T.  - Treat Your Momma Right08:15
|Rget iwconfig ?08:15
pupnikbest song ever08:15
|Ruhm, default root account is disabled in 2008 ?08:17
truentlemme try..08:17
|Rhow am i supposed to ssh in :P08:17
cambba_one way is to enable R&D mode, then sudo gainroot08:18
|Rnever had to do that on 2007 :(08:19
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truentwhen i do iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT" it disconnects then automatically connects to the strongest wlan08:22
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truentits a dummy adhoc (i think) AP im trying to connect to if that matters08:23
truenti'd rather send some option to connection manager but it has to be cli for this script08:24
oilhave you figured out how to execute scripts after connecting to specific wlan ?08:26
zuh|R: You don't need r&d all the time if you put your ssh keys there...08:26
|Roh... good idea08:27
truentthe whole thing is i wanna make a script to automate the process of connecting to my blackjack 's PAN08:28
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truenti can do i manually but i just wanna make it easy08:28
truentand the only thing holding me up is connecting to this dummy Ap via cmd line08:29
|Rzuh : but uh, wait... i do need R&D anyway to get it there :|08:31
* |R never looked at r&d, going to see what it implies...08:32
zuhNothing much if you just boot once with it, set up your keys and switch it off again08:32
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|Rso it's just ./flasher --enable-rd-mode ?08:33
trulsack, still annoying with the blue flashing led on the directional-pad...08:34
trulscan't understand why they do that08:34
trulskeep thinking there's something wrong with my n80008:34
zuhYou can turn it off...08:35
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zuhIt's in control panel -> display08:37
oildoesnt the blue led indicate that you have new message/email/calls or something else to notify?08:37
zuhor whatever they are in english08:37
trulszuh: thanks, never realized...08:37
zuhoil: It can, but you can turn that off too08:37
truls"Show LED lights" didn't automatically trasnalte for me as "Blink annoyingly while sleeping"08:37
zuhNor does LED settings logically follow display settings IMO08:38
trulswoo, made my day08:38
GeneralAntillesYou can turn the sleep blinking off in OS200808:39
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GeneralAntillesand leave messages and such on.08:40
|RR&D mode does what actually? just removes the ! in password file?08:40
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GeneralAntillesOne of my 770s has been in R&D since early 200608:40
GeneralAntillesNo problems there08:41
GeneralAntillesSo, dunno.08:41
|Rweird because in 2007 on my n800 i never needed to use this to get root :|08:41
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GeneralAntillesNot sure what changed08:41
GeneralAntillesStupid, though.08:42
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|Ryeah, and the new xterm is butt ugly08:42
|R(actually can't zoom out as much as before and the font is not good for a terminal...)08:42
|Roh well08:42
GeneralAntillesYeah, it's pretty broken.08:43
zuhIt switches a flag on and some programs react to that in certain ways, like sshd not allowing passwd logins and 'sudo gainroot' giving root access instead of a silly message08:43
GeneralAntillesHow can I get sshd to allow logins with R&D off?08:43
GeneralAntillesI want my pretty bootscreen back. :)08:43
|Rhehe, auth keys?08:44
K`zanNight folks08:44
zuhAlso it seems to limit the CPU MHz, I got ~160 bogomips in /proc/cpuinfo while in r&d and the expected 390...08:44
GeneralAntillesUh, no.08:44
zuhThough I'm not 100% sure about that08:44
GeneralAntillesThe CPU is throttled.08:44
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GeneralAntillesSo you'll get different bogomips depending on load. :)08:44
zuhit seemed to be constant result, but as said, I dunno for sure08:45
GeneralAntillesYeah, you're wrong. :)08:46
GeneralAntillesMine's been in R&D for a while08:46
GeneralAntillesand I've gotten 388 bogomips.08:46
zuhI guess you could say then that r&d mode lowers your devices load ;)08:47
zuhIt's funny though, got a small number, booted, got a small number again, switched the flag off & booted, got a bigger number08:48
GeneralAntillesStart loading a website and then cat /proc/cpuinfo08:49
zuhBut I believe in murphy so... ;08:49
GeneralAntillesObviously, the device wasn't under load when you checked cpuinfo08:49
zuhyeah, seems to be 160 again...08:49
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* |R thinks MaemoMapper should be the default navigation system, the nokia one is ugly too...08:50
GeneralAntillesIt probably would be if Google's licensing would permit it. :)08:51
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GeneralAntillesbecomeroot seems to work fine on OS200808:56
|Ruser ALL = (ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL <- my best friend08:59
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truentan actual keyboard is always nice09:02
GeneralAntillesNow that's just weird as hell.09:02
GeneralAntillesI seem to have enabled some weird autocomplete mode with my bluetooth keyboard09:02
truentseriously.. anyone have any idea how to connect to a known AP via command line?09:03
truenti tried 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "DEFAULT"' no go09:03
pupnikIf you fall asleep, the clowns can get you.09:03
truentmind you DEFAULT is a dummy ap i setup per one of the wiki pages09:04
* GeneralAntilles gets insomnia.09:04
zuhtruent: I bet the wireless-tools do not read gconf...09:04
truentany ideas then?09:05
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truenti was thinking originally if ConnectionManager.. or whatever its command line counterpart is named, just took command line options.. ;p09:06
zuhIt'll work with a real AP, but not with the dummy which is for the nokia connection manager AFAIK09:07
zuhdepends on the encryption too, WPA is not possible through wireless-tools IIRC09:08
truentwell its all to connect to my blackjack via bluetooth..09:08
truenti have to connect to this dummy ap in order for it to work properly09:09
zuhah, dunno about that at all then :)09:09
zuhI guess you would just need to setup routing yourself, not really connect the wlan to anywhere... but as said, I dunno about that.09:09
truentall that stuff is good, i can do it all fine.. its just im trying to write a script to automate the whole process and i cant figure out how to eliminate clicking on the 'DEFAULT' ap in the connection manager09:10
truentno problems connecting, just a tedious process.. i want my wife to be able to click on a button for a script i wrote .. and have it just be on.. everything else is doable.. just connecting to an access point via cli09:10
truentthanks for tryin for sure ;p09:11
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truentbtw.. im gonna try again after a reboot, but 'iwconfig wlan0 essid "networkname"' doesnt work for a real ap either09:18
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GeneralAntillestruent, dbus, maybe?09:24
truentyeah ive heard of that never looked into it..09:24
GeneralAntillesIt'd be a bit more involved than a shell script09:24
GeneralAntillesbut certainly will work09:24
GeneralAntillesYou could probably do it in Python or Ruby09:25
truentwell the script i was gonna do was in ruby09:25
truentlemme look up dbus09:25
GeneralAntillesalterego would be the guy to talk to09:25
truentis it specific to n800 or just a linux lib?09:25
GeneralAntillesThis would be specific to the N800.09:25
GeneralAntillesWell, ITOS in general09:26
GeneralAntillesWell, dbus is a Linux thing09:26
truentyeah thats what i meant09:26
GeneralAntillesbut what you're trying to do will probably be more maemo specific.09:26
truenti have ruby installed09:27
truentfor metasploit09:27
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GeneralAntillesThe generic dbus documentation should probably get you started.09:27
truentokie doke09:27
truentjust sucks cuz everything else can be done with system calls or shell scripting09:28
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GeneralAntillesYeah, seems like what you're trying to do should work.09:31
GeneralAntillesBut, dunno.09:31
timelyxoh fsck me09:32
timelyxsome idiot commented in a bug preventing my comment w/ how to help from appearing09:32
gomiamtimelyx: I can't understand how someone commenting on a bug would keep you from doing the same. Did it get closed?09:35
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timelyxgomiam: bugzilla will generate an error message09:38
timelyxif you're asleep, busy, hurried, or crash09:38
timelyxyou may not notice09:38
timelyxas a result, your comment either gets lost waiting for a confirm page09:39
timelyxor *really* lost when the browser crashes09:39
timelyxnote to people who think N is the only company that can't get plurals right09:39
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timelyx"No Audios Found." is *wrong*09:39
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timelyxin my case, i believe my browser crashed09:46
GeneralAntillesWhich browser?09:48
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* timelyx frowns10:09
timelyx> As for today the entries must be in English.10:10
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timelyxwhy should entries be in English when the requirement that they be in English isn't written in English?10:10
timelyxcrash for anyone else? :)10:12
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timelyxanyone here awake and have a device?10:23
GeneralAntillesLogging in. :)10:24
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vegaitimelyx: perhaps they mean that only for today, entries need to be in English10:25
vegaitomorrow, do what you want10:25
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Rogierha kees10:49
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needhelpHi! I need your help. Iam collecting points in page listed below. If you be so kind, please click url below.(sorry for the spam, thank you)
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Rogiertest 1 2 310:49
timelyx_Monkey capture root is a package that installs your user's authorized keys so you can ssh to root@your-device
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.10:50
timelyx_Monkey capture root =~ s/device/device. -/10:50
_MonkeyOK, timelyx10:50
JaffaMorning, all10:51
* timelyx pokes Jaffa10:51
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timelyxGeneralAntilles: i  was talking about the device, not :)10:59
GeneralAntillesWell, the page you linked me to wanted a login11:00
GeneralAntillesand I couldn't login on the device11:00
GeneralAntillesso I couldn't test it.11:00
timelyxoh. my other question wasn't related to the url11:00
GeneralAntillesAh, right.11:00
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GeneralAntillesYou have a test page for the menus then?11:00
timelyxany random app, this isn't browser related :). try notes and the details item11:01
timelyxsorry :)11:01
GeneralAntillesNo worries. :)11:01
timelyxjust because i'm a browser engineer doesn't mean all my problems are browser related :)11:01
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GeneralAntillesYeah, hardware keys ignore greyed items.11:02
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timelyxignore as in skip?11:05
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rothielHi guys :)11:06
* timelyx pokes GeneralAntilles11:06
GeneralAntillesThey're skipped and not highlighted.11:07
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timelyxstupid :)11:07
* timelyx can drag the stupid midguard bar onscreen11:11
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timelyxheh, loading on my mac got me
timelyxok, other than their site doing sniffing (probably not worse than, skype's site is very pretty (unlike
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shackanhaving problems here connecting to a PEAP network with MSCHAPv2 auth12:28
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czrtimelyx, "Napsauta OK pysäyttääksesi sen, tai Peruuta odottaaksesi sen valmistumista." (instead of Paina)13:01
czrtimelyx, ie. turns "press" into "click"13:01
timelyxczr: um... which does the platform use?13:01
timelyxi'm not at work yet (obviously)13:01
timelyxthe platform at least in some locales seems to *never* use "click"13:02
czrtimelyx, that was a suggestion from my l10n friend13:02
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timelyxmuch to the annoyance of all localizers with whom i've spoken13:02
czrit would be preferred to use click vs press. however, I think that'd be up to other people who have worked on l10n in moz13:02
timelyxthis seems to be some sort of nokiaism13:02
timelyxthe moz people all suggested click13:03
czrbut I think you can ignore that for an open source project13:03
czror this localization was for a nokia project?13:03
timelyxbut !click won because this is essentially nokia stuff13:03
timelyxit's for microb13:03
timelyxwhich is only used by maemo/osso13:03
czruhh. ok13:03
X-Fade_Hmm very N810 alike:
timelyxmozilla firefox has its own text13:03
timelyxincluding buttons that don't say "OK" or "Cancel"13:03
timelyxthey say "Stop script" and "Continue"13:03
czrmakes sense13:04
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czrtimelyx, any idea whether the original fi was localized within N or without?13:04
timelyx99.9% certain it was by/for N13:04
timelyxtechnically N doesn't localize13:04
czrhah. funny email13:05
timelyxif you ignore the first "new" localization for those strings13:05
timelyxi collected 15/16 localizations by talking to Nokians13:05
timelyxand then lost the translation because i messed up trying to save it (notepad)13:05
* timelyx sighs13:06
timelyxjake is flooding me13:06
timelyxthere's now a bug that's CLOSED LATER13:06
timelyxwhat does that mean?13:06
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Jaffatimelyx: indeed.13:09
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JaffaCan someone try with OS2008 and say whether or not the new, bundled osso-xterm tells the input method when character echoing is switched off?13:09
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Segnale007hi there13:10
timelyxJaffa: they suck13:10
timelyxthere's an X Terminal component right next to the Input method component13:10
timelyxJaffa: someone did claim they had "fixed" that "bug"13:12
timelyxpersonally, I *used* that featurre13:12
inzJaffa, I tried to fix it in my version of osso-xterm, but couldn't find a way to get that info out of ncurses/vte13:12
Jaffainz: Yeah, I thought it might be tricky.13:13
Jaffatimelyx: *mis*feature ;-)13:13
inzJaffa, I think character echoing is handled elsewhere13:14
inzJaffa, and thus the terminal doesn't have a clue13:15
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inzJaffa, it seems they've fixed the easy way13:17
inzJaffa, i.e. specified _all_ input as "secret"13:17
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inzhmm, the thumb kb doesn't show asterisks13:18
timelyxthe thumb keyboard would learn too13:18
timelyxso... um...13:19
inzbut I don't get any "suggestions" when using the vkb to type stuff13:19
JaffaThat's just dumb.13:20
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GeneralAntillesI wish somebody would just go through and whip the vkb behaviors into shape.13:20
timelyxJaffa: no, that's N13:20
timelyxsomeone reports a bug, you're expect to "resolve" it13:21
timelyxe.g., i reported a bug that changing sides in chess could lead to a crash13:21
timelyxthey removed the ability to switch sides while the game is running13:21
timelyxlook ma, no crash13:21
jeffmauriciPls, I'm confuse about:
jeffmauriciIt's possible: running FS from MMC and connecting via USBnet shared from PC?13:24
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* timelyx wonders how to get plain text in this stupid wiki13:28
Khertan_TheRealHi !13:28
Jaffatimelyx: taken to extreme the device won't turn on at some point - no crashes, no security breaches, no flat battery, no lost data. Perfect!13:29
timelyxjeffmaurici: reload that page?13:29
timelyxJaffa: it should happen :)13:29
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Khertan_TheReallol i ve just see that don't display the same ratings for application in list view or detail view13:30
timelyxjeffmaurici: the article sure claims it is13:30
timelyxKhertan_TheReal: nice13:32
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Khertan_TheRealsomeone have a n770 with an os2006 and the time to test if pygtkeditor work with it ?13:34
timelyxdoes it have to turn on?13:34
waiting_for_n810no "n" in 770 ;)13:34
timelyxbtw, what waiting_for_n810 said13:35
Khertan_TheRealit seems i ve found an other bug on the os2008 beta ... my nokia reboot for the second time this morning ... withou application launched ... except gpesummary in applet13:35
* timelyx grumbles13:35
Khertan_TheRealso an nokia 770 ? :)13:35
timelyxi can't believe someone used the word synergy in a bug comment13:35
waiting_for_n810pygtkeditor ... if i remember correctly I could not install it on my 770 because some packets where missing13:35
timelyxpackets? heh13:36
Khertan_TheRealit s only require pymaemo13:36
timelyxok, my 770 is booting13:36
timelyxhappy hands13:36
waiting_for_n810just gimme a minute13:36
timelyxbut i'd need to know my wifi password13:36
* waiting_for_n810 goes downstairs to catch his 77013:36
Khertan_TheRealtimelyx and waiting_for_n810 > try with the version available on my website :
db48xtimelyx: it's just a little retconning13:37
waiting_for_n810k wait13:37
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waiting_for_n810got to download that ;)13:37
Khertan_TheRealpffff is very slow13:38
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waiting_for_n810lets hope the browser does not crash...13:39
waiting_for_n810man i've got to get a new tablet :/13:39
dpb_I wonder if I'll use the N810 more than my old 770..13:40
Khertan_TheRealdpb_ > like many of us :)13:40
timelyxok, password set13:40
timelyxtrying ot connect13:40
waiting_for_n810microb got an error13:40
Khertan_TheRealon package download ?13:40
waiting_for_n810the fucking n810 is fucking expensive >:(13:41
waiting_for_n810nope on loading
waiting_for_n810ahh btw13:41
GeneralAntillesJust buy an N800 for super cheap, then. :P13:41
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* VimS|gettingN800 points at his new nick ;)13:41
timelyxok, page loaded13:42
Khertan_TheRealon ?13:42
Khertan_TheReali ve checked domain and dns ok13:42
VimS|gettingN800yeah microb on 770 sucks with xhtml13:42
timelyxbuy 2 n800s13:42
VimS|gettingN800but im tryin opera now13:42
Khertan_TheReali ll come back in 10 min ...13:42
Khertan_TheReal(my boss ... pfff)13:42
VimS|gettingN800NO!! 1 n800 + navi + 2x 8gb SD-card ;P13:42
timelyxmake one a bthid for the other13:42
Khertan_TheRealyou could post the test on 770 on the chan ... i'll read the log :)13:43
timelyxunable to install13:43
timelyxrequires python2.5, 2.5-hildon, 2.5-gtk213:43
Khertan_TheRealyes ... but s it s pymaemo13:43
dpb_Oh yeah, need to buy a memory card for the N810 too.. so it will cost more than 99 euros.. *sigh*13:43
timelyxhow do i get that?13:43
Khertan_TheRealand it should be available on 770, isn't it ?13:43
timelyxpretend i've never met pymaemo?13:43
timelyxoh wait, i've never met pymaemo13:44
timelyxpymaemo no packages found13:45
* VimS|gettingN800 slaps dpb_ with an n810 discount-code from maemo.org13:45
timelyxif you want me to do something13:45
timelyxit needs to be much more idiot proof13:45
dpb_VimS|gettingN800 :)13:45
VimS|gettingN800429€ on amazon.de13:45
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roccohow possible is it to get the n800 to plug into a rj45 socket?13:49
* czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up13:49
roccoi mean through a usb->rj45 adapter13:50
* VimS|gettingN800 has no idea13:50
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roccopresumably I can load a custom kernel module to control it?13:50
VimS|gettingN800czr: what's up ?13:51
czrVimS|gettingN800? Do I know you? :-)13:51
czr"same old".13:51
VimS|gettingN800i guess not13:51
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VimS|gettingN800* czr knew that today was not a good day to wake up <- just wanted to know why :)13:51
inzczr, "everyone knows the monkey..."13:51
VimS|gettingN800Khertan: PyGTKEditor seems to work fine on my Nokia 770 with OS2006 and Phyton 2.5  installed13:53
czrinz, I know too many of them, makes it difficult to differentiate :-)13:54
VimS|gettingN800but i dunno python so i can't code anything with it ;)13:54
czrVimS|gettingN800, ah. I will explain then. I got a long email with a lot of issues to fix in the training material that I'm working on. Some of the issues were less than clear. Hence the slight .. blueness.13:55
inzczr, at least you got _some_ feedback ;)13:55
czrthe ironic part of course is that all of the issues have existed in the material for 2 years now.13:55
czrinz, indeed :-)13:55
* czr should be happy13:55
czrbut all I can think of is the "important motivational comic strip" :-)13:55
Khertan_TheRealtimelyx > so for pymaemo on 770 i ll look where u can download it13:56
* VimS|gettingN800 deinstalls pyGTKEditor13:56
timelE61iSend a msg to timelyx13:57
czr"important motivational comic strip" :
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Khertan_TheRealtimelyx > do u have the extra repository ?13:57
VimS|gettingN800 <-  very good repository-list13:58
Khertan_TheRealVimS|gettingN800 > thanks for your test ... so i can add it to the site13:58
VimS|gettingN800jepp but don't forget i've got phyton 2.5 package installed ;)13:59
Khertan_TheRealVimS|gettingN800 > yes but's if you have the extra repository it should install it so :)14:00
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Khertan_TheRealsomeone use gpesummary on the beta n800 OS2008 ? my tablett reboot 2 time this morning with only gpesummary as applet and no application loaded14:01
Khertan_TheReali don't know if there is a link ...14:02
Khertan_TheRealpffff it s boring to enter informations for each itos all time !14:05
Don^damn. i need to buy another n800.14:05
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Khertan_TheRealmiam miam time :)14:06
Khertan_TheRealsee u later14:06
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Don^if there a possibility to get a nice clean install files for the mmc somewhere?14:12
Don^since i understood that it would be possible to boot the device from mmc?14:13
pupnikthere is howto for the transferring of filesystem to-on mmc14:13
lardmanczr: I tried your suggestion to separate the declaration of the fd_set variables, still segfaults14:13
czrlardman, what about using fd+1 for first param of select?14:14
pupnikif is wanting the clean filesystem having then flashing-re the OS before multiboot14:14
czrand yeah, the separate thing shouldn't really affect anything14:14
_Monkeyi think multiboot is "LILO supreme being - 5th element - protect *you*"
pupnikhrm is not complete howto14:14
czrhrm = hello? read manual?14:14
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Don^pupnik: yep. the problem is that my device is not booting ;) was wondering if i can get it booting from mmc /wo a working system on hand at the moment.14:15
pupnikNokia is Electronic, supersonic.14:15
Don^since re-flashing is not working...14:15
Don^or flashing in general14:15
vikramb11anybody hacked maemo connectivity ...14:15
czrpupnik, do the locomotive?14:15
pupnikoh that's not good.14:15
vikramb11i mean the libconic / icd etc ,...14:16
Don^pupnik: aye. "To flash the bootloader, you have to supply the X-Loader image14:16
Don^and trying to flash just the bootloader Flashing bootloader... Sending request 0x50 failed! Unable to get error strings: Connection timed out14:16
Don^so i'm pretty fecked now i guess.14:16
vikramb11want to know whether maemo has  used "gnome network manager" ??14:16
inzWhat is gnome network manager?14:17
czrvikramb11, no14:17
czrinz, the ultimate evil in network damagement14:17
czrvikramb11, maemo has it's own connectivity "system"14:18
inzczr, yeah, I just though NetworkManager was a cross DE project, but remembered wrongly14:18
czrI guess the KDE people don't want to accept crap even if it comes via fd.o ;-)14:18
* czr hides & runs14:18
czrsmoke and then back to work. /me puts on the "meh"-cap.14:19
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pupniksorry Don^ you have n800 right14:20
lardmanczr: /me hides head in shame, may well be due to my poor error checking in fact14:21
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pupnikczr helped lardman wif somethin?14:22
* pupnik watches like a cat looking at PC assembly14:22
alteregocat's do that?14:22
pupnikcats are funny :)14:23
pupniki have pic14:23
alteregoUrgh ..14:23
* alterego stares at his workstation machine blankly as he decides where to re-enter his current work project.14:24
alteregoI've been dreaming about coding again recently (used to happen a few years ago), it's a pain coding something, then waking up and having to do it again.14:26
lardmanhmm, I can't get a term any more. I get "stdin: is not a tty" over ssh, and the built-in term fails too14:27
alteregoSet "TERM" to vt100 or something.14:27
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czrlardman, ah, you found it? cool.14:27
lardmanalterego: no, it's just stopped working14:27
czrpupnik, hard to believe, isn't it? :-)14:28
alteregoI must have missed something because I don't know what you're doing ;)14:28
unique311whats the location of the display configuration file for os2008?14:28
lardmanczr: I'd forgotten to error check opening the dsp task, which fails more often than not14:28
alteregounique311, display configuration file?14:28
czrlardman, ah. "oops" :-)14:28
unique311like a xorg.conf14:28
czr"no one will ever need to check the result of this malloc/open/write/read" :-)14:28
lardmanczr: problem with using someone else's code, as mine always has a check, etc.14:29
czralthough checking for malloc errors is quite futile in most cases14:29
* czr nods14:29
lardmanright, reboot has solved the tty issue14:29
alteregounique311, I don't believe there is one.14:30
unique311So how is the display configured?14:30
czrtimelyx, someone else complained about the docs opening in separate windows too :-)14:31
czrtimelyx, which means that I'm able to get rid of that crap finally ;-)14:31
lardmancrap, killed it again14:31
lardmanlooks like it doesn't like my dsp_dld -p with the madmp3dec.o task ready to load14:32
czrlardman, is the .o task going to the dsp?14:32
czralso, is it something you've cooked up, or just using something that already exists?14:32
czr(i.e., source or closed?)14:33
alteregounique311, there's a special omap X server. Who knows :P14:33
czralterego, if it's kdrive based, then the config is for build-time only. normally kdrives don't have runtime conf files.14:33
alteregounique311, check out 'Xomap --help'14:33
lardmanczr: yes .o to dsp, something I was sent and am modifying to get it to work, open source14:33
czrlardman, cool.14:33
alteregoCool, I can make my display monochrome.14:34
czrlardman, what do you use to build it?14:34
Spakman_anyone else hit a problem on OS2008 where pressing the centre button doesn't seem to work when you try to unlock?14:34
czralterego, if you step on it, you can go a step further and make it unchrome :-)14:34
vikramb11czr:  thanks ! any one place to get all connectivity related source tar ball !14:34
czror nonochrome14:34
alteregoSpakman_, yes, that is a known bug.14:34
alteregoSpakman_, you'll need to take the battery out and turn the device on again.14:34
czrvikramb11, start by reading the 4.0 sdk how-tos on connectivity first14:34
Spakman_ta alterego, I won't bother filing it14:35
lardmanczr: Ti Linux toolchain14:35
czrvikramb11, on -> documentation -> maemo 4.0 -> howtos -> and so on. there's a long list of docs there.14:35
Spakman_alterego: BTW, spotted your .install file for Ruby, nice one!14:35
czrlardman, ah. thought so.14:35
alteregoSpakman_, thanks :)14:35
czrlardman, is it any good?14:35
vikramb11czr yea i saw and  checked 2.x 3.x and 4.x14:35
pupnikhrmph, still Nov 28 over here14:36
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vikramb11czr there is a arch diagram on 2.x for connectivity ..but missing in later versions... is that still hold good ?14:36
czrvikramb11, I have no idea. most of the 4.0 stuff that I've looked through is not really 4.0 pure either :-)14:36
lardmanczr: It produces code :)14:36
czrvikramb11, if you find bugs / something missing in the howtos, file a bug report (see the "help improve this page" link at the bottom of each howto)14:37
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czrlardman, "fair enough" :-)14:37
lardmanczr: Or do you mean the mp3 decoder? In which case I don't know as it doesn't seem to do anything (yet)14:37
czrlardman, neh, you pretty much got the gist of what I meant14:37
Segnale007hi guys14:37
vikramb11czr  ok. So what all parts of connectivity module are open . i felt that icd (daemon) is proprietary ?14:38
lardmanwell it just blocks at the select() call now, so looks like the DSP isn't asking for data14:39
czrvikramb11, I have no idea, haven't gone that way.14:39
Spakman_alterego: is there anything special I need to do to package up a ruby-maemo program?14:39
Spakman_(I guess not)14:39
czrSpakman_, ask alterego14:39
czrah, sry, :-)14:39
* czr should get replacement eyes14:39
vikramb11czr ok no probs.14:39
Spakman_czr: :)14:39
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Don^pupnik: yup. i have n800.14:49
pupnikyou flashing with out power cable plugged-in, and holding the home button while powerup?14:49
pupniki think that was the procedure14:50
Spakman_how can I run a command automatically on boot?14:50
Don^pupnik: yup. i flashed it ok, but it fails always in the same step.14:52
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pupnik_Monkey: bootscripts are a way to run stuff when your Tablet boots, some xamples here:
_MonkeyOK, pupnik.14:54
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pupnikSpakman_: try that page14:54
vikramb11any idea is the url is latest/outdated :
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Don^damn. I'll just get a new device. :D14:55
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alteregoStrange how the most interesting emails end in my junk folder :/15:30
dpb_Change your junk folder to be the default one? :P15:30
_Monkeydpb_: that doesn't look right15:30
* dpb_ kicks _Monkey 15:30
alteregoHeh, hotmail is using some weird default .NET error page.15:31
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alteregoAnyone purchased those "scratch proof" display protectors?16:13
alteregoAre they worth the price? I'm half tempted just to buy a large sheet and make my own ..16:14
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alteregoAt least then I can make them slightly bigger so the edges are under the front facia.16:14
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lardmanalterego: I just go without and don't use it on the beach16:19
lardmanthough in this country there's more chance of it getting wet from the rain, then lost in the mud on the beach than getting sand in it16:20
lardmanon it16:20
MikhoWould somebody know a c library I could use to calculate checksums of byte strings?16:22
lardmanany particular checksum?16:22
Mikhoalmost any would do16:23
lardmanyou may as well write your own, they are quite small16:23
lardman would be a start to look for a piece of code16:23
czrMikho, for what purpose btw?16:24
lardmanby write your own I meant write a function/use a function, rather than look for a library. I wasn't suggesting making up your own one :)16:24
czrmaybe I can recommend something16:24
Mikhofor checking if arbitrarily long byte streams are likely to be equal16:25
Mikhonot for error detection16:26
czrhmm. what kind of byte streams?16:26
czri.e., you know anything about their content before hand? text /binary?16:26
fysaanyone here testing modest?16:27
czrwhat you're looking for is a hashing algorithm really (non-cryptographic probably)16:27
czrMikho, look into "fast hashing functions" in wikipedia. there's a lot of them16:27
fysayes, that's really the only way.16:28
Mikhook, I'll look into that. Thanks16:28
czrMikho, what is the purpose of testing for this likelyness btw?16:28
czr"maybe I can help" :-)16:28
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fysaXOR could work16:29
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Mikhoit's for detecting whether there have been modifications to two data entities that are supposed to be equal16:30
alteregolardman, I'm more scared of it being scratched by the stylus. The current screen protector is, well, f*cked :)16:31
Mikholike, one might get the same data from more than one sources, and the program should detect if one is modified16:31
lardmanalterego: you mean the thing that came on it?16:32
fysaThe cksum command can be used to compare a suspect file copied or communicated over noisy transmission lines against an exact copy of a trusted file.16:33
alteregolardman, yeah. It's starting to peel on one edge a bit too much and there's a bubble too ..16:33
lardmanalterego: I've never used one on any of my devices, if I feel the stylus scratching I stop and wipe it. I don't have any issues seeing the screen through my scratch marks ;)16:33
fysait doesn't matter which hashing mechanism you use.16:33
alteregolardman, I don't either. I just want it to stay in good nik ;)16:33
Mikhook, I think I'll manage with these16:33
fysayou are essentially representing an arbitrarily long string of data with 16, 32, 64 or 256 characters.16:34
alteregoMikho, when you say stream are you using TCP/IP ?16:34
alteregoBecause TCP/IP has checksums embedded into it for that exact reason ..16:34
fysaany change to that string of data will result in the representation being altered.16:34
fysaso just pick whichever is fastest in your situation.16:35
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fysasounds like he's toying with P2P concepts16:36
Mikhoyes, i know16:36
alteregoHmm. Maybe look into how bittorrent does it them.16:36
fysabittorrent uses SHA16:36
alteregoThey have hashes (SHA?) for complete file and also for blocks.16:36
Mikhoit's not about transmission errors but differences in data made by users16:36
fysawhich is about twice as slow as MDA, which itself is about twice as slow as XOR6416:37
Mikhotimestamp is really not good enough16:37
fysasorry, md516:37
alteregoWell, are you trying to find the differences or just want to know if there are differences.16:37
Mikhojust to know if there are differences16:37
fysaunless you have some rsync/diff-type functions on both sides, you won't be able to easily extraopolate what those differences are.16:38
alteregoMikho, then send a hash with each block of data.16:38
fysaand no, timestamp is never good enough for such a thing.16:38
Mikhothat's what I'm planning to do :)16:39
lardmanI guess it depends on how sure you want to be that the records are the same, is the probability of different data producing same hash inversely proportional to the time taken to calculate the hash?16:39
czrMikho, what kind of protections are you planning against?16:39
czror "modifications"16:39
fysaright.  the complexity of your hash algorithm is a trade-off between speed and accuracy into oblivion.16:39
Mikhoone server has one data and another might have some other data about the same subject16:39
czrif the data of same size on both?16:40
fysawhy not just use rsync?16:40
alteregosvn ftw!16:40
czralso, does data change completely when it changes, or partially? and do you care? (ie, how large is each data)16:40
Mikhoif the data is the same, fine, but if it's the same, the program should have some way of telling the user it has several versions of the data16:41
czruse sha116:41
timelessanyone here familiar w/ videoForLinux?16:41
Mikho*if it's different, the program blabla16:41
lardmanMikho: why would the data be the same?16:42
alteregotimeless, partially. V4L is it's acronym ;)16:42
czrMikho, for each data, store (size-of-data, md5-of-data-content, version-id/timestamp-when-added, data)16:42
alteregotimeless, I've read the kernel text on the subject too.16:42
czrin order to compare data entries, you start with size and md516:42
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timelessmaemo uses it, right?16:42
MikhoIt'd be nice if there was a ready-made lib I could use16:42
czrin order to display information about version, you use the version-id16:42
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pupnikHAY GUYS!  (crazy dog picture)  Howz it goin!?!?16:43
* pupnik runs around 16:43
sKaBoytimeless, yes (if i remember right)16:43
Mikholardman, the data is supposed to be the same. It might not be due to sync problems etc16:43
czrMikho, interestingly enough I'm working on almost the same problem. only I have > 100M hashes :-)16:43
alteregotimeless, maemo uses it for the Radio in the N800 and for video in the N8X0's16:44
lardmanczr, Mikho: why not simply add a changed-since-last-sync flag, forget the md5sum for each record, then just check (e.g. md5sum) those that are flagged when the sync occurs?16:44
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Mikhobecause timestamps are unreliable16:45
czrlardman, I'm just throwing ideas, the specification is not complete enough for me to give sane suggestions :-)16:45
lardmannot a time stamp, a I-have-changed flag16:45
alteregoDepends on the time stamp and who controls that data.16:45
lardmanwell yes, but if the timestamp is inaccurate, the md5sum won't tell you which data to use16:45
lardmanstill won't16:46
czrlardman, also, if you have a multiple-master situation, then that becomes kind of difficult in conflicts :-)16:46
lardmanczr: yes, that is true16:46
czrlardman, did you see my original suggestion? one with 4 elements16:46
czr(size-of-data, md5-of-content, version-id, data)16:46
alteregotimeless, are you looking at webcam support in Flash?16:46
moutaHi, I've followed the maemo_4-0_tutorial. Everything seems to work except some warnings and missing files. How can I make it happy ? (Plugin desktop file not found, keybindings.rc, ui-window-*.wav)16:46
lardmanczr: yes, I was just thinking of removing the md5sum overhead from each record, move that to the syncing event, but depends on how many records are added vs sync'd I suppose16:47
alteregomouta, those are normal. Just ignore them ;)16:47
czrlardman, you'd only need to do md5 if sizes are the same and version-id is not.16:47
moutaalterego, fine, thanks16:47
alteregomouta if it helps. Close your eyes before starting the desktop and when running a program ;)16:47
czrlardman, so the odds of that being required is quite small if done correctly16:47
lardmanczr: ah okay, so version-id is like my "I've changed" flag16:47
czrsmt like that yes16:48
moutaalterego, I'll put my head in the fridge16:48
alteregoczr, revision number maybe?16:48
czrI still don't understand the problem mikho is trying to solve, so I'll just leave it as "(semi)unique way of telling that this version of 'thing' is not the same as some other version of this same 'thing')16:48
czrdepends on the scenario16:48
czrfor single-master a number is sufficient16:48
alteregoI don't know the nature of how he expects this data to change. Whether it's iteration or just random (error tainted?)16:48
czrfor multi-master not since the same data can change in two different locations at the same time16:49
czrbut solving those problems is much more interesting than single-master scenarios :-)16:49
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alteregoYou could also have a tainted flag on the data when it's coming in so you know you _should_ check for data corruption/changes.16:50
MikhoIsn't it pretty simple actually? There's data, it's supposed to be the same, but it might not. Checksums can be calculated server-side and sent along with the data. The application then checks the two checksums and if they differ, it presents both sets of the data to the user16:50
alteregoMikho, sure. It can be that simple. When you say "presents both sets of the data to the user" do you mean display it? Or just say these things differ?16:51
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alteregoAnd then, are you displaying changes or the whole file? Is the data binary or text?16:51
Mikhothat's not in this problem area16:51
Mikhofor now I'd just like to detect16:51
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alteregoWell, if it's a stream. Then just generate an MD5 for each chunk. Ask the server for the MD5 for that chunk. It replies. Compare the checksums and you're done.16:52
Mikhoyep. Already found the solution. I'll probably use md5 or sha1. But I haven't found a readymade lib yet16:53
alteregoYou also have the option of recording status and re-requesting the specific chunk that does not match.16:53
alteregoMikho, what language are you using?16:54
lardmanis there a link into the OMAP accelerators anywhere?16:54
alteregoMikho, it's all in OpenSSL I believe.16:54
Mikhoin maemo2.216:54
czrthe hash accel is not used imho16:55
czror crypto accels16:55
lardmanczr: agreed, shame16:55
alteregohash accel?16:55
_Monkeyhmmm... hash accel is not used imho16:55
czralterego, there's support for some crypto & hash algos on omap16:56
alteregoczr, ah. That's what I thought you meant. Neat.16:56
czrbut it's not used16:56
alteregoczr, is that not utilised in the kernel?16:56
czrat least it wasn't when I last checked (1.0/770)16:56
czrkernel doesn't expose hash/crypto to userspace anyway16:56
alteregoHmm .. I thought the kernel had support for MD5, SHA1 ...16:56
czrso libcrypto couldn't use it even if kernel supported16:56
czrin software yes. and for VIA padlock16:57
alteregoMaybe write an OMAP module then ..16:57
czrI think the issue was in the way that dma was mapped on the omap16:57
czron via padlock it was easy as it was an instruction set extension16:57
czron omap not16:57
czrit's a separate "cpu"16:57
alteregoWell, I'm gonna have a shower and head out. Later folks.16:58
czrbut as said, I'm not 100% about the situation now. checked that ages ago16:58
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lardmanAnother reason to look in the OMAP 2420 Technical Reference Manual16:59
lardman...if it were available to mere mortals16:59
czrlardman, getting that accel available to user space is going to be difficult17:00
czrkernel might be doable, but that would be close to useless17:00
czrsince the kernel crypto layer is not really used. only kernel-side ipsec might benefit17:00
czrand since it's asynchronous, I doubt that it would help much17:01
lardmanwrite your own lib to use it17:02
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moutaI'd like to render text as overlay (not in a (bordered) window) with pango, what should I read ?17:03
lardmandoes the X1 licence require modifications to be made available in source form?17:04
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czrlardman, ever tried to access dma-based engines directly from userspace? :-)17:05
lardmanI'm looking at it atm17:05
lardmanfor the powervr17:05
czrah. heh then :-)17:06
lardmanbut no, this is a learning experience :)17:06
czrwhen you need testing, drop me a note ;-)17:06
lardmanczr: will do17:06
* czr runs to get food and execute nap-time-sequence17:06
lardmanc ya17:07
* lardman goes to do some shopping17:07
dpb_Hmm, a nap would be nice..17:07
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TakX11 license is like BSD license17:07
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fysaanyone here building modest?17:27
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Spakman_fysa: that's my plan for tonight :)17:34
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sKaBoyfysa, there are deb packages somewhere17:36
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roccowhat's to stop us plugging a usb keyboard into the n800?17:36
roccoas long as we have the kernel module?17:36
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Taklack of usb host mode?17:37
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roccohow can we do usb networking ?17:37
Spakman_sKaBoy: any idea where?17:37
_Monkeyany idea is the url is latest/outdated :
sKaBoyfysa, (don't know if it's official, a beta or something.. found it in google some days ago)17:37
roccoI don't know a lot about usb to be honest?17:37
roccois it cos it'd be unpowered?17:38
lophyterocco, there's a usb networking howto on the maemo wiki17:38
roccoi know17:38
roccowhat I'm saying is, how is usb networking different to a usb keyboard?17:38
Takheh, I think most things for chinook are pretty beta right now17:39
lophytebecause usb networking doesn't require the device to be in host mode17:39
lophyteit works like a USB networking peripheral17:39
roccois that a hardware thing?17:39
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lophyteyou have to install a custom kernel to enable usb host mode17:39
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roccoI was going to have a go with that17:40
fysasKaBoy: oo, sanks17:40
lophyteI haven't tested it yet but I've heard people say it works great17:40
lophyteyou just need to hack a cable for it17:40
Spakman_sKaBoy: thanks a lot, installing Modest now :)17:40
roccois that just on os2008?17:40
sKaBoyfysa, Spakman_, it works fine for me :) report bugs if you find them! i think it's still beta!17:41
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roccowill that work on 2007 I wonder?17:42
sKaBoyrocco, with 2007 you need to use another kernel.. check maemo-user or maemo-devel archives, there were a lot of threads about usb host mode17:42
roccothanks sKaBoy17:42
roccooh i so can't wait for 2008 now17:42
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alteregoWhy don't you just install the beta?17:43
Spakman_sKaBoy: I will do, cheers17:44
roccoalterego, I'm scared to17:45
roccolots of my lovely apps might break17:45
alterego2008 doesn't break any apps./17:45
roccodo settings import/export ok from 07 to 08?17:45
roccolike wireless settings?17:45
alteregoDunno, I don't care much for settings.17:46
roccoalterego, no it just deletes them all17:46
murrayc_If you backup your settings it will probably restore them.17:46
alteregoYou could always make a complete backup. Attempt to migrate. If you don't like it then revert back to the backup.17:46
roccoyou can do that?17:46
alteregoSeveral ways come to mind.17:47
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alteregoDo you dual boot?17:47
roccoheheh.alas no17:47
roccoI didn't know how to17:47
roccoso I havn't ever done it17:47
roccoI know it's possible17:47
alteregoYeah, the instructions aren't really for the non technical minded.17:48
alteregoWell, Linux novices I mean ;)17:48
roccoi meant I havn't had a need to do it17:48
alteregoWell, during the dual boot process. You copy your current root filesystem to a partition on the SD card. That's probably the best backup to have ;)17:49
roccoso i need one card to dual boot onto17:49
roccothen the other to transfer everything onto17:49
alteregoYeah, I use a 2G card 1G for storage/swap and the other 1G for OS17:50
alteregoThat's the internal card.17:50
roccomaybe I'll try dual booting tonight17:50
roccotbph i don't have much on there17:50
alteregoMy external card is whatever happens to be in there. Generally a 4G with music or various SD cards that I use with my digital camera17:50
roccomaybe I'll just backup settings and migrate17:50
roccois enabling root easy on os2008?17:50
alteregoWe need users to send us pestering emails to force us to update our software ;)17:51
zoranah, you want angry users?17:51
alteregoThere seems to be a large lack of motivation in the application developers at the moment. Not much updating going on ..17:51
alteregoGenerally all you need is a re-compile ..17:51
zoranthe hype is on multimedia this days17:52
roccoyou've convinced me alterego17:52
roccoos2008 tonight17:52
roccocan't wait for hostmode17:53
alteregoYou know. It's one of those things I keep meaning to play with but haven't bothered yet. I might look into that tonight :D17:53
alteregoYou've convinced me :)17:53
alteregoIt's certainly functionality I'd like to play with ..17:53
roccoi thought you were on about os2008 then17:54
roccoright back to work17:54
roccothanks guys17:54
alteregoSee you17:54
roccothanks especially to you alterego17:54
roccooh just outta interest......bluetoothkeyboard vs usb keyboard....wrt power17:54
alteregoBT keyboard has seperate batteries obviously. Probably last longer. It'll also make your device last longer.17:55
alteregoIf you're plugged in most of the time. Then USB keyboards are dirt cheap.17:55
roccoso usb keyboard will drain more17:55
roccoyeh i guess so17:55
roccothanks alterego17:55
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rich_dyI just got an n800, and was able to install XChat.  The application installs correctly, but when it attempts to connect to any server, it will resolve the hostname correctly, but cannot make a connection -- it just ... sits there trying to connect.  Is this a known issue?18:00
pupnikwe need some whoop-dy in tabletland18:01
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pupniksome wow kickin mental detergent18:01
rghoshsounds questionable18:02
zoranrich_dy, irssi could be fine18:02
rich_dyzoran: well, when I attempt to connect to IRC via the pidgin plugin, I also get the same problem -- just hangs on the connection.  Is there some library I might be missing?  I don't have any other net connection issues...I'm able to use other internet clients just fine, like the web browser and the other gaim plugins18:04
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nooknookhmm pidgin works fine for me on irc on my 81018:04
zoranif I recall, xchat is irc client; pidgin goes as icq/etc18:04
nooknookbut i can't install xchat complains about missing libs18:05
nooknookat leas via app manager18:05
alteregorich_dy, sounds like firewall18:05
alteregozoran, pidgin has an IRC plugin as well.18:05
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alteregoI actually use Pidgin over xchat because I don't like xchat on the device.18:06
rich_dyalterego: i'll try on another network, but my other hosts on the network are able to connect to IRC just fine18:06
alteregoBut I don't usually IRC from it.18:06
alteregorich_dy, well. It's unlikely that they would both not work without some underlying network problem.18:07
rich_dyright.  i'll float around downtown at lunch and try some other open networks to see if it's an issue with my router18:07
alteregoThere are several OAP's in my area that block SSH O_O18:08
alteregoI find that infuriating.18:08
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db48xalterego: wow, that would suck18:09
db48x"It's a trap!" maybe?18:09
alteregoIt continually does.18:09
alteregoIt's amusing because this place in particular attracts sysadmin and coder types.18:10
alteregoIt's a big geek haven.18:10
db48xgood place to troll for passwords then18:10
alteregoThat would be unethical :P18:10
alteregoI have enough of my own passwords anyway :P18:10
db48xso is blocking ssh, imho18:10
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zoranwho in a state of sane would surf that ap?18:10
alteregoWell, the alt ssh port isn't blocked.18:11
alteregoSo I can do that.18:11
zoranjust 22?18:11
alteregoThere are probably more ports blocked but that's the only one that effects me.18:11
zoranapplication proxy?18:12
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alteregoAnyhow, so I've moved from that cafe to a bar that has an encrypted OAP.18:12
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alteregoThey don't appear to block any ports so I'm happy :)18:12
alteregoUnfortunately trading good tea for beer.18:13
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alteregoThis town is missing a place that has free IA and _good_ coffee.18:13
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alteregoThere are good coffee places. Just no fscking internet.18:14
alteregoAnd data plans in the UK are amazingly horrible.18:14
Mikhowhy are they horrible?18:14
alteregoIf they were competitive with cable prices. Say, £15 extra a month. I'd use it all the time.18:16
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alteregoAs it happens I get charged about £1 a megabyte. So it's not worth using it when you're never _that_ far away from an OAP.18:17
gla55_paying per mbyte makes gprs/3g essentially useless for most things except very few low-data things18:18
alteregoI'd concievably use it for always on IM availability. But I've not as of yet.18:18
pupnik  PowerVR Mbx openGL demo #118:19
hexahere they charge 35cent / kilobyte so 51$ /MB lol18:19
hexaer.. 5 cent / k18:19
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gla55_what good is 3g if it's going to cost you 2.4£ a minute to use it's potential18:19
alteregohexa, yeah. I heard that America was worse ..18:19
hexaand they advertise video conferencing application hahaha18:19
alteregoI didn't realise it was _that_ bad .. O_O18:19
lardmanpupnik: nice isn't it :)18:19
gla55_i got 9.9e / 384kbit/s / month and i'm loving it18:19
alteregogla55_, where do you live?18:20
hexaA friend of mine works at a canadian cell company , telephone support , one guy browsed for 2 days and got a 15 000$ invoice18:20
gla55_alterego: finland..18:20
_Monkeywell, finland is closed in July due to holidays. Please come back later ;)18:20
alteregogla55_, figures :P18:20
alteregogla55_, I so want to move out there :)18:20
gla55_alterego: wait untill the winter is over18:21
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alteregoI was thinking of visiting in January. Suss out whether I could get work there or not.18:21
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pumpkingodhi, anyone know where I can find sendmail for maemo, or do I have to compile it myself?18:23
alteregopumpkingod, you'll probably have to compile it yourself.18:23
pumpkingodthanks :)18:23
alteregopumpkingod, make a package too and throw it into extras ;)18:23
alteregoThat too.18:24
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Khertan_TheRealWe need a server for ...18:25
Khertan_TheRealmemcache handler: Failed to connect to localhost:11211.18:25
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Khertan_TheRealI dream about a small repository with a html front end, where user can add their package only by uploading a .deb and after a validation, their package appear magically in the repository ...18:29
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* alterego slaps Khertan_TheReal out of his dream land.18:34
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nooknookAny good QA apps for maemo. When i worked on the palm we had pose with Gremlins that just beat the hell out of your app, simulating user usage. Great for exposing bugs.18:39
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pupniknooknook: that's an interesting idea - maybe any generic linux/x11 based app could be modified to that purpose18:43
alteregoWould be neat.18:43
nooknookCool yeh, i'd consider writing one, it's incredibly useful and greatly increases general stability of apps.  I think linux apps in general tend to be a bit flaky, a tool like that quickly exposes bugs. Perhaps i will, just starting on maemo dev i'll have to see what's available for doing such an app.18:45
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alteregoI'm not sure how those kinds of things work. I'm only really used to writing functional and unit test suites :)18:48
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nooknookYeh for your own for sure.  It's just nice to have the other to beat the hell out of it and find things that got missed but would show up later under use.  Also to find bugs in other apps where it's crashing but you can't consistenly reproduce it or some such.  With the palm emulator you could reproduce the steps it took to generate the crash, and it's been a while but i think even drop into the deubber at that point.  I might not be able to get the re18:55
nooknookproduction going initially, but i think i will start working on something that at least can do some ui bashing.  Later try to work in being able to reproduce crashes.18:55
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|Ranyone having trouble getting pidgin on OS2008beta (n800) ? (complains about missing libgnutls13 and libgcrypt11?)18:58
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alterego|R, you're missing a repository. Don't ask me which one though ..18:58
|Rhehe :)18:58
alteregoSomeone should get the author to fix his install file ..18:58
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|R <- maybe this will fix it :)18:59
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JaffaKhertan_TheReal: Is scp *really* that much of a hardship? My problems with extras have historically been the validation checks, not the actual mechanism of getting the deb file there.19:02
|Rah maemohackers was missing i think...19:03
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alteregoJaffa, I could figure out how to upload to extras-devel. So I gave up and setup my own repository ..19:06
alteregoJaffa, I thought it would be good anyway. As I plan on adding lots of packages (ruby extensions) for people. So it kind of seems worth while having my own ruby centric repository. IMO.19:06
* Jaffa disagrees, if Debian and Ubuntu can cope with libperl-... and libruby-... why can't Maemo?19:07
Jaffaupload to extras with dput is
Jaffaupload to extras without dput is
Jaffa_Monkey: upload to extras without dput?19:08
_Monkeyrumour has it upload to extras without dput is
JaffaGood _Monkey19:08
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DanielLionTesting out the n810 finally got mine.. LOVE it19:09
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fysayou upgrade from the n800?19:16
alteregoDanielLion, fortunate 500?19:17
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pupnikthe world is composed of 10 kinds of people: those who have an N810 and those who aren't on speaking terms with those who have a N81019:21
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truenti asked this question last night but maybe we got some new blood in here.. short of learning every facet of dbus.. does anyone know of a way to connect to a DUMMY type AP named 'DEFAULT' via the command line?19:22
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DanielLioni just wish i could get TTLS working for our wifi netowrk.. it never finds the CA cert. even if i put it in the cert manager in the control panel19:24
DanielLionat least the TTLS protocal is now in there19:25
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|Rpupnik : haha 17 days, we're gonna make it ;)19:40
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JaffaBah, I'm on holiday next week - had hoped on using the GPS a little19:42
* Jaffa can probably survive, though ;-)19:42
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alteregoJaffa, I feel your pain :)19:44
alteregoJaffa, I'm just hoping for a neat Christmas present now ;)19:45
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Sho_The device has appeared on now (for 429€) ... still not on though :-)19:49
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truentok does anyone know of a good/easy dbus tutorial that would help me in my quest to change the access point im connected to via command line19:53
pupnik  :D19:54
Jaffaalterego: I'm getting a new gadget bag next week for my birthday (reason for holiday) and no N810 to put in it :-/19:54
alteregoI could do with a new gadget bag.19:54
alterego(The mens handbag) :D19:55
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Jaffa (in black, imported from the US by a colleague)19:55
DanielLioni find the slip case they gave was fine for the 810 being in my pocket19:55
alteregoJaffa, magnetic? Is that safe? :D19:57
* Jaffa 's a skinny chap and has phone/keys/wallet in pocket; also tend to carry around some painkillers/zomigtriptan, business cards etc.19:57
Jaffaalterego: should be, it's a very soft magnet - but I've not put a device in to check yet :)19:57
alteregoI was just kidding. I think LCD's are pretty safe with magnets as are SD cards etc.19:58
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pupnikhmm, a purse would be funny19:59
* pupnik looks at his samsonite bag19:59
TakDanielLion: yeah, I can't connect to our wifi either19:59
pupnikit *is* a purse!20:00
Jaffaalterego: indeed, humour recognised :)20:00
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the-FoXi try to get maemo-mobile mythtv running, but when connecting to the i get errors :( somebody succesfully got this working?20:01
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DanielLioni get ok with ttls and mschapv2 but because i can't pull down the cert. it won't let me connect20:04
DanielLioni even saved out the cert from my mac and imported it into the cert. control panel20:05
DanielLionthat came in fine and i trusted it20:05
Takme too20:06
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nooknookI have an 810, as near as I can tell this isn't a Host type usb port, does anyone know for sure? I'm not to familiar on Host ports, I have one on my Zaurus and its different size.20:14
timelessN810 (note the N) has micro usb20:15
timelessmicro usb supports usb otg20:15
_Monkeywell, otg is a supplement to the USB 2.0 specification which allows USB devices to be hosts as well as slaves, controlling power, data and master/slave negotiation20:15
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timelessi've tried to send some complaints to nokia for their total failure to document these bits20:16
timelessbut oh well20:16
nooknookahh okay thanks. So perhaps if we had a certain cable we could use it in host mode?20:17
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bill20r3in theory, barring driver issues.20:17
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nooknookcool thank you for clarifications20:19
oil__Monkey: thank you very much of that information. I was just swearing why change the usb port. but now it makes sense.20:19
_Monkeyno worries oil_20:19
* timeless boggles20:20
timelessmonkey had a decent response?20:20
timelessoil: monkey's a bot btw...20:20
timeless_monkey: have a bot snack20:21
oil_timeless: I was wondering of the rather quick response :)20:21
timelessoil: amusingly, my responses can be about as fast and useless as bot's :)20:21
timeless(check logs and watch me seem to automatically clean out entries from _monkey :)20:22
oil_timeless: well. this brings us to the everlasting question. what is the difference of the true nerd and a bot? :)20:22
mgedminthe bot's source code is more readable?20:23
fysammm leftover stuffing20:23
timelessfysa: tease!20:24
timelesssome of us unfortunate souls are on the wrong side of the ocean20:24
oil_mgedmin: might be. and bot's do not disturb themselves with internet porn^h^h^h^h knowledge.20:25
fysaanyone on any side of anything without stuffing is definitely on the wrong side.20:25
timelessoil: i wouldn't go that far20:25
timelessi'm sure there's a but somewhere that deals in that stuff :)20:26
fysanaughty bots swapping ports and banging bits20:26
* timeless looks for contact info for murrayc20:27
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oil_well. we have to admit that most of the x-rated emails come from the bots. there might be artificial intelligence after all :)20:28
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timelesscan someone here name a nokia app that uses tabs for its main window?20:29
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oil_ok. back to the business. it there a good way to start a script after connecting to a wlan ap?20:30
_Monkeytimeless is the microb architect20:31
timelesspupnik: nokia20:31
pupnikoh sry20:31
fysayou're the microbian man, timeless?  the one that will give us font/proxy settings and kinetic scrolling and/or thumb-friendly scrollbar? :)20:32
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timelessno,no,no,no :)20:33
timelessactually thumb friendly scrollbar? maybe20:33
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db48xfysa: you can change the font and proxy settings using about:config20:33
timelessi did give you about:config20:33
doc|workhmmm, my mail client won't start. What's the name of the executable?20:33
* the-FoX needs some help with maemomyth :(20:33
timelessso you could say i did the first two :)20:33
fysayes, but I can't copy/paste or just click on something?20:33
timelessfysa: you can double tap an item in about:Config to select it20:33
timelessand then edit>copy to copy it20:33
timelessi might at some point change about:config to include links20:34
timelessor make it spiffier20:34
fysaand for some reason, network.proxy.something_type is reset to 0 when the browser reloads?20:34
db48xwhat happened to copy and paste in the xterm?20:34
alteregoIt moved.20:34
db48xalterego: why did it do that?20:34
alteregoI dunno. There are a few duff changes in the new xterm.20:35
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alteregoYou have to use the application menu to do copy20:35
alteregoPasting can be done via the vkb20:35
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fysatimeless: if it's XUL/JS you can use, probably make them each a link like .. <a onclick/href="javascript:document.editfield.value='network.proxy.etc';">network.proxy.etc</a>?20:36
fysaanyway, I can live without it. :)20:36
timelessoc|work: this is the normal one?20:36
doc|worktimeless: yep20:36
fysaI usually just use xterm and nano the prefs.js20:36
timelessdoc: gimme a bit20:36
doc|workmight be due to a server error, but I'd expect it to say something at least rather than just die silently :/20:37
timeless   7 Exec=/usr/bin/ossoemail20:37
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timelessfysa: it's html/js20:37
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doc|worktimeless: thanks20:37
timelessfysa: it's accepting patches20:37
timelessi don't think that it should do it that way20:37
timelessi think that it should be <body onclick> instead20:38
timelessor something20:38
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timelessmaybe <p>20:38
timelessso that it doesn't need to be repeated20:38
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timelesssomething that basically captures the string dynamically20:38
timelessprobably it'd be cool if the edit field were floated or something20:38
timelessso you wouldn't have to go to the top20:38
fysathat would be the best way.20:39
db48xit'd be cooler to use the existing xul impl20:39
fysatouch something and it becomes an edit.20:39
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timelessyou can read and rewrite the html if you like20:39
fysaneed to get a build environment up..20:39
timelessdb48x: yeah well um... someone needs to fix perf stuff first :)20:40
db48xwas it really all that slow?20:41
db48xI would have thought it'd be faster than html20:41
db48xdoes it use a content tree view or a custom tree view?20:42
doc|workweird, restarted n800 and all is fine :/20:42
db48xguess it wouldn't matter much20:42
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cbx33dang it20:43
cbx33my 2008 that I downloaded the other day - the md5sum doesn't match20:43
L0cutuswhere cani find MC for n800 ?20:43
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cbx33can someone paste in the md5sum for the current n800 os2008 image?20:44
kulve900353c77fc7357a8a6a40b0b9483c2c  /tmp/RX-34_2008SE_1.2007.44-4_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin20:44
kulvethat's mine20:44
cbx33mine must be corrupt then20:44
bill20r3^^ mine20:44
cbx33unless it's old20:44
cbx33I got it a while back20:44
kulvethat came monday?20:45
cbx33but it's downloading at a rate of 2.67Kb/s20:45
cbx33no before.....when there was all the hubbub about it being leaked20:45
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cbx33now the images seem unavailable20:45
cbx33it can't download at all20:45
cbx33what's up with the nokia site I wonder20:46
kulvecbx33: the official beta came monday20:46
kulvenot a leaked one20:46
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cbx33my average download speed is about 6Kb/s20:46
cbx33ahhh ok20:46
cbx33well I'm grabbing that as we speak20:46
bill20r3mine went super slowly too.20:47
cbx33can anyone else confirm the download speed.....i guess it can't be mirrored anywhere for licensing reasons20:47
cbx33this sucks20:47
cbx3310 hours20:47
elbwhy would someone else confirm it20:47
cbx33between 3 and 40 hours apparently20:47
elbif it's slow for you, it's slow for you, and we can't confirm or deny that20:47
cbx33so i can tell if I have a sucky net connection today20:48
timelessdb48x: wait, which?20:48
cbx33sure you can20:48
timelessdo you mean a xul ui, or prefs?20:48
elbpeople have been complaining of slow downloads for a while20:48
guerbyhi, my N800+OS2008 is in a funny state (following my email on maemo-users about power+dpad), stylet, thumb and power button are working as usual, but all other buttons have no effect20:48
timelessabout:config is almost certainly much faster in xul20:48
cbx33thanks elb20:48
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timelessespecially considering the poor impl i wrote20:48
guerbyI have ssh access (and app access) do you know what I should be looking for to help debugging?20:48
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timelessguerby: you should probably install sysklogd20:49
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guerbytimeless, ok let me check20:49
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timelessguerby: note, i have no idea what i'd be looking for20:50
timelessthat's just a basic thing which you'd want installed while chasing ghosts20:51
guerbytimeless, sysklogd installed20:51
timelessi'm also not sure where the logs go these days20:51
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guerby/var/log/ ?20:51
timelessat one point it was /var/ftd-log/logs20:52
timelesssorry, people just pung something important20:52
* timeless drops #maemo20:52
guerbytimeless seems to be /var/log/syslog20:53
timelessok, guess they're using the more normal version, fine by me20:53
guerbygetting a few lines in it but nothing when I press the not working buttons20:54
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ubikolatis it easy to disable the network manager applet in the n800 or the n810? Probably through /etc/init.d/network stop?20:56
timelessyou mean the status bar item?20:57
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ubikolatyea, so that the network manager does not interfere with the wlan0 interface20:57
* lardman looks at the back log and sees download rates of 6kB/s for the flash image. I was moaning when mine fell to 50kB/s20:58
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* doc|work was getting 550K from the (unofficial) torrent20:58
lardmanthat's more like it20:58
guerbytimeless I installed xev and there's no event generated at all20:59
timelessi'd probably reboot and then read dmesg and syslog21:00
timeless(not sure there'd be anything)21:00
fysatimeless: BTW, 'modest' uses the nice thumb-sized scrollbar21:00
timelessi've never heard of loose wires or anything, but i suppose anything's possible21:00
DanielLion2hrs left for the N810 firmware21:00
timelessfysa: so, how many scrollbars does modest have on the screen at one time?21:00
guerbytimeless rebooting then21:00
DanielLionDamn they trying to squeeze bandwith though a dial up line or something?21:01
alteregoDanielLion, two dialup lines actually.21:01
* doc|work was going to say that :|21:01
cbx33mines died21:01
cbx33never past 1Mb21:01
fysathe lower scrollbar being small isn't a big issue -- it's easier to 'drag' the screen left and right21:01
cbx33hey fysa21:01
lardmanthey can't have that many people trying to download it can they?21:01
cbx33i wouldn't have thought so21:02
fysabut on a long long page, dragging can be an issue21:02
DanielLionThats nutters21:02
fysawhich is where the thumb-sized scrollbar would really help21:02
guerbytimeless, I got back my buttons after reboot go figure...21:02
alteregoAll those lucky yanks with their tablets O_O21:02
DanielLionkinetic scroll would rock! though.21:02
fysahunting down a screenshot21:03
timelessfysa: try that url21:03
timelesslardman: ball of twine server?21:04
ubikolatI've been having some issues with os2008 of it rebooting on it's own while I'm running my application is there some way to debug the problem?21:04
timelessubikolat: install sysklogd21:04
timelessyou should also check /proc/boot_reason (?)21:04
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guerbytimeless do you get a penny each time someone installs sysklogd? :) :)21:05
* lardman wonders about these posts on ITT about p2p clients on the tablets, very odd21:05
timelessmine's sw_rst (there's a wiki somewhere)21:05
timelessguerby: that really wouldn't pay for my dinner21:05
lardmansoftware reset21:05
timelesslardman: mine isn't interesting, what's interesting is ubi's :)21:05
* timeless pokes fysa21:06
timelessfysa: note: dragging (panning) is a disaster21:06
timelessit needs to be removed and redesigned21:06
fysasorry, was hunting down this Modest presentation21:06
lardmancome on ubikolat, tell us what it says :)21:06
fysabut it has old small scrollbars21:06
timelessyou need to play w/ more google web apps21:06
timelessfysa: the modest dev is a neighbor21:06
timelessi can easily see how it looks21:06
fysaOK cool21:06
timelessload my page instead :)21:06
timelesswe're not that ignorant21:07
ubikolattimeless: bootreason says 32wd_to21:07
timelessok, maybe we are...21:07
timelessubi: that's much more interesting :)21:07
ubikolatubikolat: what does it mean?21:07
* timeless insults ubi's irc client21:07
fysayou want me to load that big string into the location: field?  or stick it into an HTML and view it?21:07
ubikolatI just installed sysklogd let me try to reproduce the problem21:07
fysaoh, I see.  data:text/html21:08
lardmanwatchdog iirc21:08
timelesslardman: yes...21:08
fysaI can see how fat scrollbars wouldn't necessarily be good there.21:09
timelessubi: anyway, that page seems to have a fairly reasonable starting outline21:09
timelessfysa: you realize that each set of scrollbars eats space, right?21:09
ubikolattimeless: yeah thanks21:09
timelessat some point, you run out of space21:09
timelessand just have scrollbars21:09
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fysaright now we have a situation where because the scrollbar is so small, it's artificially forced away from the right edge of the screen leaving a gap, right?21:10
cbx33damn managed to get 1.23 Mb before it died then21:10
timelessbasically, while scrollbars are nifty things, ever present scrollbars are probably the wrong solution for our device21:10
timelessfysa: no21:10
halleyScrollbars suck; just drag an "inert" part of the content.21:11
timelesswe have a situation where an idiotic theming requirement is forcing bad design21:11
fysaI have a ~8 pixel gap on the right of the scrollbar21:11
timelesshalley: what if there is no inert content?21:11
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timelessfysa: anyway, i'm in a pickle21:12
timelessi'm trying to redesign the ui (now)21:12
fysayou know, even the in-page scrollbars could stay the same.  it's just the scrollbar on the right that is a problem for me -- my thumb scrapes against the plastic of the case when I scroll up/down21:12
timelessbut i have these stupid documents that are "confidential"21:12
timelessfysa: actually, that's the other stupid thing21:12
timelessbecause the screen is inset21:12
timelessthere are arguments against the normal behavior of screen edges21:13
fysathe iPhone/iPod Touch really had it right when they put the screen flush behind glass.21:13
* timeless blames the designers21:13
timelessyes, apple has better engineers21:13
timelesstell me something i can actually fix21:13
halleyfysa, I agree about flush mount in general; makes it easier to clean.21:13
* timeless doesn't have a budget to hire them21:13
* timeless doesn't have a budget at all21:13
lardmanubikolat: have you looked at the output of /var/lib/dsme/stats/lifeguard_resets21:13
* alterego hopes Nokia decide to do that next time :)21:14
halleyI want to make pygtkeditor tabbed so I can have multiple files at once.21:14
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timelesstabs are bad21:14
timelessdon't do it21:14
alteregoIt'd be a _proper_ tablet then.21:14
halleyOne TXT file open at a time is worse for me.21:14
* timeless pun-ishes alterego21:14
timelesshalley: just have multiple windows21:14
timelessthe window manager should manage the windows for you21:15
halleyEr, then finding them with the left-hand icons?21:15
timelessif it's broken, make someone fix it21:15
fysaif the right scroll bar was widened so the left edge meets the dotted line between the [V] minimize and [X] close, I think that would be 'good enough'21:15
timelesshalley: i think there's an unsupported setting that'd let you put the tn on another edge if you're so inclined :)21:15
timelessfysa: i will try to make sure my list of grievances includes that one21:16
fysasorry :)21:16
timelessnot your fault21:16
timelessperfectly rational grievance21:16
ubikolatlardman yeah I did21:16
fysahow about instead of kinetic scrolling, some way to amplify dragging?.21:16
fysathat would make it much more useful.21:16
ubikolatlardman but apparently that file doesn't indicate what caused the restart21:16
timelessfysa: no :)21:16
fysai.e., I move my finger 10 pixels, I want the page to move 50 pixels21:16
timelessfysa: have you looked at minimap?21:17
lardmanubikolat: yeah, just re-read that thread21:17
timelessfysa:  put another way21:17
ubikolatI did, just installed ksyslogd21:17
timelessimagine you're looking at...21:17
fysahave not, but will check it out21:17
fysaminimap as default OS2008 'Map'?21:17
timelessfysa: minimap is nokia's s60 browser solution to a certain problem21:18
timelessignore it for now21:18
timelessstart w/ the url i pasted21:18
timelesswithout searching, how would you get to "20210"?21:18
lardmanubikolat: dunno about the email, but mine indicates 5* restarts by dsp_dld, and as I have been DSP hacking this is why it's been reset21:18
timelessfysa: if you prefer 90210, that's fine too21:19
fysasounds like a trick question ;)21:19
timelessjust describe the steps you take21:19
fysaunzoom, drag, zoom in?21:19
timelessno tricks21:19
timelessyou sure you don't want to drag until you reach that?21:19
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timelessyou don't have to unzoom, right?21:20
timelessi mean, if you drag long enough21:20
fysamy wrist would be very tired ;)21:20
timelessand pay for enough acceleration, you might eventually find your destination21:20
timelessi'm shocked21:20
timelessok. good.21:20
ubikolatlardman yeah mine just has 1 on each, so it's not an application being reset a lot of times, or so I'm guessing21:20
timelessbaseline established21:20
timelessnext question. what pages do you visit, and precisely how do you try to change their view21:20
timelessare you trying to go down "1 screen", "to the end", "to a random point", ...21:21
timelessare you "trying to read the text"21:21
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timelessfysa: basically, instead of saying "foo would be cool"21:21
K`zanAnyone know if the FMRadio applet from 2007 will work in 2008 (n800)?21:21
timelessi need you (and the nokians writing stupid requirements)21:21
|Rany reason why DisableHFP=True in /etc/bluetooth/audio.conf ?21:21
timelessk`zan: typically you need to rebuild apps for different os releases21:21
timelessto actually explain what problem you're trying to solve21:22
timelesswhat's the real world use case21:22
timelessnot, what might be cool21:22
K`zantimeless, I know but I was hoping :).21:22
timelessthe question isn't is "x" cool, it's *why* is X useful21:22
timelesswhat problem does X solve21:22
* sp3000 wonders if the feed applet has been fixed to wrap right since 4421:22
timelessand are the conditions leading to the problems that X solves21:22
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timelesssp3000: would reading the changelog answer that? :)21:22
* timeless can do that....21:23
lardmanpupnik: this one is opengl on the omap21:23
fysais it possible to zoom out less than 80%?21:23
timelessX solves ... equivalent to the conditions on our device21:23
timelessfysa: w/ the ui we have officially? no21:23
sp3000timeless: eek21:23
pupnikah ty21:23
timelessi have one browser that lets me zoom to 10%..200% w/ 10% steps21:23
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timelessand that's the browser i happen to like the best for ui choices21:24
timelessfysa: there's another elephant in the corner21:24
pupnikwow nice21:24
timelessand that's the fact that apple may have patents for cool things it does21:24
timelesslike how to unlock a device21:24
fysathere are two issues I have with the browser -- friction of the screen/device against my finger makes dragging not feel so hot.  and hitting the tiny 10pt font links with my finger.21:24
timelessfysa: good21:24
timelessthe friction should make you think that panning is a really stupid solution21:25
timelessin fact, it results in hands that hurt a lot21:25
fysathe first thing I usually do is set the minimum font size to 14pt.. this lets me not have to use 120% all the time, which makes the images ugly.21:25
pumpkingodI don't seem to have glib-config21:25
timelessand the other thing, hitting the links21:25