IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2007-11-18

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pupnik770	the artist shows up on freenode occasionally	00:01
K`zan_800	But how to replace the grubbing paws screen :)	00:01
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pupnik770	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=939	00:03
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alterego	Just occured to me ..	00:04
alterego	hd-plugin-manager.c might be autogenerated :)	00:05
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K`zan_800	pupnik770: Thanks!	00:05
pupnik770	that logo on my system is a jpg not a png though	00:06
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K`zan_800	ssh on the device is WONDERFUL :).	00:09
K`zan_800	Even figured out how to change user's password!	00:09
K`zan_800	Love it more by the hour :).	00:10
* alterego uses key auth		00:11
hircus	K`zan_800: which device? 800 or 810?	00:11
K`zan_800	800	00:11
pupnik770	testing new boot logo	00:12
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K`zan_800	Going to have to find something and then get it correctly formatted....	00:12
K`zan_800	/usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/qgn_indi_nokia_hands.jpg - not png	00:14
pupnik	not working here - when the progress bar loads i see the NOKIA logo instead of hands or my replacement image	00:16
pupnik	but then i see the image for 0.1 second before the desktop appears	00:16
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amr	whoops	00:17
pupnik	possibly cause i have multiboot from mmc that it's not working	00:17
K`zan_800	link?	00:17
K`zan_800	never mind	00:17
lopz	bye	00:22
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derf	pupnik: Do you have R&D mode enabled?	00:25
pupnik	nope	00:25
derf	I believe that Nokia logo is somewhere on the initramfs.	00:25
pupnik	booting os2006 off mmc	00:25
K`zan_800	Makes sense to me.	00:25
pupnik	well i see the logo for a split second before the hildon desktop appears	00:26
derf	I know when I switched R&D mode on, it started showing it. It might also if you're booting off mmc.	00:26
derf	Right.	00:26
derf	Your logo, you mean.	00:26
pupnik	yes	00:26
derf	You'll also see it properly when you shut down.	00:26
pupnik	i just see the NOKIA logo on shutdown also	00:27
derf	Well, maybe that's a 770 thing, then.	00:27
derf	I know I see mine on the N800.	00:28
pupnik	ok	00:28
derf	Or maybe related to booting off mmc instead of being in R&D mode.	00:28
pupnik	not a big deal - device is almost always on here (nice and stable)	00:28
pupnik	yep	00:28
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alterego	This is starting to get me annoyed ..	00:31
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alterego	I can't find anything wrong with anything except things not working O_O	00:31
alterego	For some reason hd_plugin_loader_get_type doesn't appear to be defined when getting linked :/	00:32
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p\|_	is possible to do a: dd if=/dev/mtdblock4 of=/media/mmc2/mybkp bs=1M	00:33
alterego	Yes	00:33
alterego	It'll take a while though.	00:33
p\|_	also if i'm booting from internal flash ?	00:33
alterego	You might be better off piping it through an ssh connection or seomthing.	00:33
alterego	Well, it's not exactly safe to do it when booting from the device no ..	00:34
p\|_	baceuse i'm getting an error	00:34
p\|_	because*	00:34
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p\|_	dd: /dev/mtdblock4: Input/Output error	00:35
p\|_	after about 88mb copied	00:35
alterego	Ah, that'd be EOF	00:35
alterego	Maybe ..	00:35
alterego	:)	00:35
p\|_	so ? is it an error or not ?	00:36
p\|_	is this type of backup supposed to work only if i boot from mmc ?	00:36
alterego	It doesn't exist ..	00:38
alterego	The hd_plugin_loader_get_type method isn't in any f*cking library in the SDK!	00:38
alterego	WTF?!	00:38
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alterego	That is _retarded_ ..	00:40
alterego	p\|_, yes. don't do it when you're actually using the device.	00:40
alterego	(internal flash boot)	00:40
p\|_	ok, thanks	00:41
tko	https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/tags/hildon-desktop/2.0.4-1/src/hd-plugin-loader.h	00:41
alterego	tko, that's meaning less	00:41
tko	library vs. executable ?	00:41
alterego	tko, I've been staring at those files for over a week. The symbol isn't in any shared library I can find.	00:41
alterego	I'm getting linking errors.	00:41
p\|_	after i have installed the OS2008 (and re-flash to OS2007) now i see while boot some extra info over the nokia logo	00:42
tko	oh well, another reason to kick jobi	00:42
p\|_	it do not show this before	00:42
timelyx	pl_: is it green?	00:42
alterego	I've wasted so much time on this.	00:42
alterego	And the problem isn't even obvious ..	00:42
p\|_	yes timelyx	00:42
_Monkey	hmmm... timelyx is timelyx's mac, it has scrollback	00:42
alterego	There don't appear to be _any_ plugin_loader related symbols being exported.	00:42
timelyx	you're in R&D mode, you can disable it w/ some flasher args	00:42
p\|_	ha ok	00:43
timelyx	something like --clear-rd-flags=... --disable-rd-mode	00:43
p\|_	thanks	00:43
p\|_	i'll search in itt	00:43
timelyx	./flasher* --help	00:43
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trenka	--disable-rd-mode enough	00:44
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alterego	How can a library be built without these symbols being exported?	00:45
* alterego wonders if this is local to the SDK.		00:45
* alterego takes a few deep breaths ..		00:45
alterego	Getting angry isn't going to help me ..	00:45
tko	if the function is part of the executable it is available for any plugin that is dlopened into that process	00:48
pupnik	http://www.nokia.de/A4630299 german Nokia.de link to N810 info page - not in the shop yet	00:48
GeneralAntilles	You never know, alterego, you could end up turning into the Incredible Hulk/Programmer. ;)	00:49
alterego	Heh	00:49
alterego	And do what? Fix all the crap that's wrong with hildondesktop?	00:49
alterego	This issue doesn't make any sense at all.	00:50
GeneralAntilles	You'll release a perfectly stable, 3x faster and endlessly awesome OS2009 release within mere hours.	00:50
alterego	That would be interesting.	00:50
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tko	http://lemonodor.com/archives/2007/10/youre_doing_it_wrong.html	00:51
l7	hot damn	00:52
l7	IT 2008 looks soo much better than IT 2007	00:52
pupnik	i need to get in a spaceship going 0.9c for a few hours until the N810 hits germany	00:52
alterego	I can't believe this is happening ...	00:52
zerojay	yes	00:52
l7	so did anyone buy the n810 today?	00:53
l7	i would really like one if i had the extra money, but i guess i will settle for n800	00:53
alterego	It's not out in my country.	00:53
elb	yeah	00:54
elb	I plan to order one when it's available, but ... not yet, in the US	00:54
alterego	I wonder if it's available in Finland yet ^_^	00:55
hircus	l7: still stuck in pre-order land :)	00:55
GeneralAntilles	Well, sure, if you go knock over Nokia HQ.	00:55
timelyx	there's a nokia store in downtown helsinki	00:55
l7	it is out in some US cities i think	00:55
timelyx	i could check there today (sunday)	00:55
hircus	l7: yeah, someone got it in Chicago	00:55
l7	they called me telling me it was ready	00:55
hircus	alterego: can't you call the local store and reserve a unit?	00:56
l7	if only i could afford one...	00:56
alterego	I don't have a local store.	00:56
GeneralAntilles	If only it were worth the money over the N800. :P	00:56
hircus	l7: you can make money offering to buy it for other people :)	00:56
timelyx	http://www.nokia.fi/A4353630	00:56
l7	hircus: really?	00:56
hircus	alterego: ah, thought you were asking about Finland	00:56
l7	hircus: where? on ebay?	00:56
alterego	Doesn't look like it's out in Finland yet either ^_^	00:57
zerojay	Can anyone out there explain to me what the point is of sid-support and ogg-support when they don't appear to do anything?	00:57
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l7	i guess i might as well since i reserved one	00:57
hircus	l7: lots of people living in Canada, etc. can't buy it directly	00:57
timelyx	what's sid-support?	00:57
zerojay	Supposedly adds .sid music support to the tablet.	00:57
l7	hircus: what's the most trusted way to do this?	00:57
hircus	so yes. announce it in internettablettalk -- but make sure the unit is in stock at your local store	00:57
l7	i haven't really experimetned w/ ebay	00:57
timelyx	what's sid?	00:57
hircus	l7: I'd say eBay and only accepting Paypal account-holders	00:57
K`zan_800	what is sid?	00:57
zerojay	timelyx: Are you kidding me?	00:57
timelyx	no?	00:58
zerojay	timelyx: C64 music files.	00:58
hircus	.sid -- old music format, no? can't remember the details	00:58
hircus	aha	00:58
timelyx	i'm a browser dev, not a music philo	00:58
tko	debian unstable	00:58
Matt-W	I've got a really silly problem. I'm trying to get the Chinook SDK working but apt-get from inside scratchbox can't resolve any hostnames (wget can though)	00:58
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l7	hircus: would people trust someone w/o a seller history though?	00:58
timelyx	bah, i was a fli/flc/mid fan myself	00:58
hircus	l7: good point	00:58
l7	i could use amazon marketplace perhaps	00:58
hircus	l7: same problem	00:58
timelyx	i asked and was told there was sid support, but no good mid support	00:58
zerojay	timelyx: Those would be nice too.	00:58
hircus	and on Amazon, the top sellers have, what, thousands of ratings. so it's harder	00:58
l7	oh i thought amazon gave the buyer more insurance	00:58
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hircus	l7: if you accept Paypal users only, they automatically have, I think, $200 insurance	00:59
hircus	I'd sell myself if only I have access to a local store where I can just quickly pick them up :)	00:59
l7	hircus: hrm, i think they would want more insurance than that	00:59
* alterego attempts to fix hildon-desktop		00:59
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alterego	I'm not going to have wasted all this time for nothing.	01:00
l7	well it's a cool idea, i was sort of thinking about it, but the whole ebay world has sort of eluded me	01:00
l7	reggie's video on the n810 is really nice	01:01
hircus	it is indeed	01:01
GeneralAntilles	You could do it on a case-by-case with Paypal through ITT, l7.	01:01
elb	tko: who is the first image on that page, do you know?	01:01
zerojay	It's just too bad that Reggie's voice makes me want to fall asleep.	01:01
GeneralAntilles	Ha	01:02
alterego	So the N810 is officially out?	01:02
zerojay	Other than that, very good video.	01:02
l7	GeneralAntilles: what kind of markup would be reasonable to charge for shipping units to people?	01:02
timelyx	it's been out for a few days, afaict	01:02
tko	elb: nope, but it might be said in the comments	01:02
hircus	oh wait. Reggie's video, not thoughtfix's .. where, on the main page?	01:02
l7	seems like you would have to buy insured shipping too	01:02
alterego	What countries?	01:02
hircus	timelyx: it's Schrodingerly out	01:02
timelyx	hircus: it's out and then it's out of stock?	01:03
zerojay	Hm.. microb-spellcheck.. interesting.	01:03
pupnik	refresh... refresh...	01:03
timelyx	zerojay: iirc that was missing a ui element :(	01:03
zerojay	I'll try it anyways.	01:03
hircus	timelyx: yes. and the non-Nokia shops are not even selling it yet	01:03
hircus	makes me wonder why Nokia can't coordinate launches like how Sony, Nintendo, Apple does it	01:04
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timelyx	hircus: you must have missed the n800 launch	01:04
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timelyx	there was the launch date, and then there was the day you could get it in stores	01:04
* Tieku just ordered himself an n800 on ebay :-D		01:04
hircus	timelyx: I was there	01:05
alterego	There's a difference between "can't" and "can't be bothered" or "won't"	01:05
timelyx	or should i say, there was the day you could get it in stores, and then there was the launch	01:05
hircus	alterego: ah yes. "can't be bothered"	01:05
alterego	Nokia are perfectly _capable_ of a coordinated launch. They obviously choose not to.	01:05
* timelyx questions that		01:05
hircus	so it's between accusing incompetence and accusing callousness :)	01:05
GeneralAntilles	Or the day before the launch date you could buy it in stores if you went to the right CompUSA. :D	01:05
timelyx	GeneralAntilles: my point exactly	01:05
huron	hey guys, any idea whether mplayer is available for OS2008?	01:05
hircus	exactly! they did not put a gag-order on the shops	01:05
timelyx	hircus: that worked well enough for HP	01:06
hircus	same case with LetsTalk and the Chicago store this time around, no?	01:06
* timelyx shrugs		01:06
hircus	HP .. ugh	01:06
tko	hmm, like apple launching iphone several months before you could get it in stores? was there a point somewhere?	01:06
timelyx	if a book seller can't get a coordinated launch right	01:06
timelyx	what makes you think a phone vendor can?	01:06
hircus	HP's launch of their anniversary-edition calculator works well, actually	01:06
pupnik	maybe nokia just ships to USA faster so they can make some money before the dollar becomes worthless	01:06
l7	Tieku: how much did the n800 cost on ebay?	01:06
timelyx	hircus: wrong HP	01:06
elb	pupnik: hah	01:06
l7	haha	01:06
hircus	but otherwise.. HP is quoting different prices for the same components depending on whether you go HP/Intel, HP/AMD, Compaq/Intel or Compaq/AMD :P	01:06
elb	it HAS to bounce sooner or later :-P	01:06
* timelyx meant the wizard...		01:07
hircus	tko: well, pre-announcing is fine	01:07
pupnik	elb with M3 growing at 14% APR? not any time soon	01:07
GeneralAntilles	The gag order on the last HP was a joke.	01:07
hircus	but the shipping should be coordinated	01:07
GeneralAntilles	There aren't going to be any more HPs, so . . . who cares?	01:07
Matt-W	So it seems other people have had the problem with apt-get not resolving hostnames inside Scratchbox, but the suggested fixes are all already in place on my system and it still doesn't work. Irksome.	01:08
hircus	oh, Harry Potter :P	01:08
elb	pupnik: M3?	01:08
* GeneralAntilles had to cart boxes and boxes of HP across a sweltering parking lot. :(		01:08
elb	(M3 is not a term with which I am familiar)	01:08
GeneralAntilles	Economics, elb.	01:08
hircus	GeneralAntilles: my sympathies :)	01:08
pupnik	elb a measure of the money supply - they create more credit and dollars, this leads to inflation	01:08
elb	GeneralAntilles: that's not really a useful answer	01:08
GeneralAntilles	It gives you enough to hit wiki. ;)	01:09
hircus	could someone do a quick rehash of the difference between M2, M3, M4? :)	01:09
GeneralAntilles	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply	01:09
elb	wikipedia is generally full of lies and worthlessness, if that's what you mean by 'wiki'	01:09
pupnik	i just watch shadowgovtstats.com to see trends in dollar	01:09
Tieku	l7: i got it for £123	01:09
hircus	elb: ah, you mean 'statistics' :)	01:09
timelyx	you're missing damn lies	01:10
elb	pupnik: I keep hearing all about all the inflation, but ... if anything, I have seen deflation in the past 12 months, empirically	01:10
alterego	Doesn't look like it's available in _any_ online shop.	01:10
timelyx	a very important part of statistics	01:10
elb	pupnik: it's not clear to me that we have any idea what the problem is :-)	01:10
hircus	alterego: which country?	01:10
Matt-W	Woo, working now.	01:10
alterego	_any_ country.	01:10
pupnik	I pick my gurus and follow them blindly	01:10
timelyx	hey, does the nokia.com/nokiausa.com store have correct product info for the n810 yet?	01:11
guru3	all hail me? ;)	01:11
timelyx	last i checked, the n810 was weightless	01:11
hircus	confusing, right? unless you know from somewhere else, you'd not know that you can preorder it	01:11
hircus	weightless -- awesome	01:11
timelyx	hircus: among some other very amusing detials	01:11
alterego	Pre order it from where?	01:11
timelyx	s/ia/ai/	01:11
infobot	timelyx meant: hircus: among some other very amusing details	01:11
alterego	You can't preorder it from the online shops.	01:11
hircus	alterego: amazon.com, mobilecityonline.com, letstalk.com <= Nokia's own store	01:12
alterego	There are no shops in the UK ..	01:12
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hircus	alterego: yes you can. oh, not in the UK, probably	01:12
alterego	No, you can't.	01:12
hircus	alterego: ah, for letstalk you might have to call	01:12
alterego	Not if you have the discount code like me.	01:12
elb	yeah, those of us with discount codes apparently have to wait for some magic word :-)	01:12
zerojay	yep :(	01:12
alterego	I doubt any store selling the N810 would accept my discount code.	01:12
hircus	I think letstalk does the $75 discount code	01:12
alterego	You think ..	01:13
hircus	is it that, or the full developer discount?	01:13
alterego	I have the device program discount code.	01:13
alterego	_a_ device program discount code ..	01:13
hircus	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11642	01:14
hircus	yes, the device program one probably won't work	01:14
alterego	I suppose this is why Python don't have a working desktop plugin system	01:14
alterego	Despite maemo having written the python loader and it being in SVN.	01:14
K`zan_800	Don't think that map download is working - everything flashing, but progress bar going nowhere...	01:15
K`zan_800	686MB	01:16
alterego	It's probably going slowely.	01:16
K`zan_800	Def doing that. Wonder where it plans to put it?!?	01:16
alterego	SD card	01:16
K`zan_800	Does it select the SD card with most space.	01:16
zerojay	bingo	01:16
K`zan_800	Ah, good	01:16
K`zan_800	Clever little thing :)!	01:17
pupnik	someone mentioned needing 2x the map size in free space for map download	01:17
l7	are discount codes only available to developers?	01:17
K`zan_800	Got a 4G and 1G card in there.	01:17
zerojay	l7: No, they were given to 500 people who applied.	01:17
K`zan_800	If I hadn't already had a decent GPS, I might have considered the 810.	01:18
l7	zerojay: where di they apply?	01:18
hircus	l7: program closed by now, I think	01:18
hircus	but it was announced at maemo.org	01:18
K`zan_800	If one could get into it :-(.	01:18
pupnik	http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/500_fortunate_applicants.html	01:19
K`zan_800	Which reminds me, I should try getting into it again today and see if it works.	01:19
alterego	Does your GPS access the internet and is it able to run 3rd party applications?	01:19
K`zan_800	Works today!	01:19
GeneralAntilles	Or navigate with google satellite maps?	01:19
l7	so are all the people who applied developers?	01:19
zerojay	l7: You're way too late.	01:19
l7	or just people who submitted ideas?	01:19
zerojay	l7: No.	01:20
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K`zan_800	What is this assigning some of the SD card to "virtual memory" thing?	01:20
alterego	No, I had a friend who applied and got accepted that is in no-way a a developer :)	01:20
K`zan_800	Expands the on device RAM?	01:20
l7	ah well, i thought it was only for devs	01:20
K`zan_800	err FLASH	01:20
GeneralAntilles	It's a swap space, you want it K`zan_800.	01:20
l7	how much was the discount?	01:20
K`zan_800	How much is good?	01:20
GeneralAntilles	128	01:20
derf	It means that instead of spontaneously rebooting, your device just gets really, really slow.	01:20
K`zan_800	OK, that's easy, thanks :)!	01:21
alterego	l7, you should read more carefully. there was a _BIG_ point made about it.	01:21
alterego	l7, N810 for 99 EUR to the fortunate 5000	01:21
alterego	~500	01:21
infobot	hmm... 500 is at #tuxboxproject	01:21
K`zan_800	Surprising maemo isn't on the default bookmarks..	01:21
timelyx	why?	01:22
alterego	He's easily suprised? :)	01:22
K`zan_800	An important resource for N stuff?	01:22
K`zan_800	LOL, true :-)	01:22
timelyx	no	01:22
K`zan_800	No?	01:22
GeneralAntilles	Instead it's filled with stupid trendy "green" crap.	01:22
hircus	N800 developer discount was only for developers. N810 program was for developers and anyone who helps the platform (i.e. evangelists, doc writers etc)	01:22
timelyx	GeneralAntilles: nokia changed its values about a year ago	01:23
l7	alterego: i assumed i was unworthy, not being a dev :)	01:23
timelyx	green stuff was a "new" value	01:23
timelyx	so our customers get to suffer from it :)	01:23
GeneralAntilles	I'm a particularly fan of the charger disconnect warning. :\	01:23
GeneralAntilles	*-ly	01:23
hircus	heck, even Dell will offer to plant a tree for you when you purchase something :)	01:23
alterego	Assumptions will make you look foolish in the end. You missed out on a great opportunity.	01:23
alterego	GeneralAntilles, I've not seen that warning.	01:24
GeneralAntilles	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2285	01:24
K`zan_800	Yeah, like it is going to use up all the electricity on the planet...	01:24
timelyx	alterego: leave your device charging for 2 days	01:24
GeneralAntilles	There's a picture at the bottom.	01:24
timelyx	you'll get the message	01:24
alterego	GeneralAntilles, it's odd. Considering how the chargers drop to almost no power consumption when charging has finished.	01:24
timelyx	alterego: my impression is that a government complained	01:24
alterego	O_o	01:24
GeneralAntilles	Ugh	01:24
timelyx	slightly unrelated, i think some gov was complaining about devices using standbye mode	01:25
timelyx	s/ye/e/	01:25
infobot	timelyx meant: slightly unrelated, i think some gov was complaining about devices using standbe mode	01:25
timelyx	blah	01:25
timelyx	whatever	01:25
hircus	yes, Britain	01:25
alterego	I'd be more worried about my VCR. Nokia chargers are the best I've ever used for power consumption.	01:25
alterego	They really are top-notch.	01:25
hircus	the Conservatives brought it up to out-green the govt, and naturally the govt felt they had to respond	01:25
elb	heh I unplug my coffee grinder because it gets physically warm to the touch, doing nothing :-P	01:25
hircus	I think it's more a worry with HDTV owners :)	01:25
elb	it's amazing how much power a lot of appliances use doing nothing	01:25
K`zan_800	LOL one might think...	01:26
elb	I assume the concern is that the inverter is drawing power doing nothing?	01:26
alterego	Yeah it is, it's also amazing how little power the Nokia phone chargers take when doing nothing :P	01:26
GeneralAntilles	I'm going to do a study showing that the CPU cycles wasted in showing that banner actually exceed the charger in the amount of power used. :P	01:26
elb	I keep meaning to buy a kWh meter	01:26
alterego	You could be fooled into thinking they're not actually plugged in.	01:27
K`zan_800	More nuke plants please.	01:27
alterego	GeneralAntilles, you're probably right ;)	01:27
GeneralAntilles	If only I could turn it off.	01:27
p\|	'night to all !	01:27
GeneralAntilles	It just gets in the way.	01:27
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timelyx	you can't :(	01:28
GeneralAntilles	This whole green trendiness thing makes me want to become a cutter.	01:28
alterego	Hah	01:28
K`zan_800	Understand that.	01:28
K`zan_800	Done some actual research there 'eh GeneralAntilles? ;-)	01:29
GeneralAntilles	Actually, just for spite, I'm going to leave an extra CFL on 24/7.	01:29
hircus	still preferable than the SUV craze in the '90s, but yes, a lot of it is hype	01:29
K`zan_800	All that mercury, tisk, tisk...	01:29
hircus	GeneralAntilles: could be worse. incandescent lightbulb!	01:29
K`zan_800	Cheaper than a heater :)	01:29
GeneralAntilles	Ha	01:29
GeneralAntilles	I was just going to say that.	01:30
hircus	K`zan_800: very true.	01:30
GeneralAntilles	Especially here in Florida where it really doesn't get THAT cold.	01:30
K`zan_800	Envrioloons, sigh...	01:30
hircus	so I guess they should be banned in summer only :)	01:30
GeneralAntilles	They've politicized the whole environment issue	01:30
hircus	I think Australia is actually phasing them out completely -- you won't be able to buy them anymore	01:30
GeneralAntilles	it's so far gone that they're just driving people away.	01:30
hircus	I see a market in LED Christmas decorations	01:30
K`zan_800	Yep, go back and live in caves that will make them happy...	01:30
GeneralAntilles	No, kill yourself.	01:30
GeneralAntilles	Anyway, just be sure to vote for my bug! :P	01:31
* alterego already has LED christmas lights.		01:31
K`zan_800	Right, I was just about to say that they will only be happy when all humanity is dead.	01:31
alterego	I've got several in fact.	01:31
hircus	that's the problem with any movement, really? That the self-righteous core end up pissing off everyone else	01:31
K`zan_800	Easier to be religious about it than actually do and understand real research.	01:31
hircus	alterego: neat! where did you get them?	01:31
GeneralAntilles	and they've got hypocrites like Al Gore as their main cheerleaders.	01:31
alterego	hircus, I can't remember. I think it was Maplin	01:31
K`zan_800	That map download has really got the device constipated :-).	01:32
hircus	alterego: ah. fond memories of undergrad days	01:32
hircus	yeah, the problem with politicizing an issue is that then the other side tends to distrust whatever you say	01:32
GeneralAntilles	Especially when 90% of what you say isn't actually backed up by facts.	01:33
K`zan_800	Yep, too true. Only recently have the real climateologist been allowed to be heard.	01:33
GeneralAntilles	Which is sad, as the environment is an issue EVERYBODY can get behind.	01:33
K`zan_800	And they all say BS :-/.	01:33
K`zan_800	Yep, but a good scam, anyone want to buy carbon credits from me? Just take a few to print up however many you want :)	01:34
K`zan_800	algore might get upset with me horning in on his cash cow though...	01:34
K`zan_800	Sheesh	01:34
K`zan_800	Starving, chow, bbiab	01:35
* pupnik likes to back-up over the facts in his Hummer		01:35
alterego	Holy cow I've found it.	01:36
derf	Al Gore's cash cow is all the boards of directors he sits on, not the environment.	01:36
K`zan_800	But that gets publicity for the loons...	01:36
hircus	Apple. I commented when he was appointed that it's so fitting	01:36
hircus	the guy who invented the Internet (and the environment) and the company that "invented" the GUI	01:37
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alterego	What does the Ndx field in readelf -s mean?	01:37
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tko	alterego: index?	01:38
alterego	Yeah, I worked that out now :)	01:38
alterego	I thought I found the symbol, but it's UND (undefined) I guess.	01:38
alterego	The occurance was actually in _my_ plugin loader.	01:39
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tko	that is to be expected	01:39
timelyx	yeah	01:39
timelyx	it'd be kinda bad if it were in our libraries :)	01:39
alterego	So who's life do I threaten to get this fixed?	01:39
tko	lucasr if he were here. jobi is the next best thing :)	01:40
timelyx	is it defined in a nokia header?	01:40
alterego	It's generated by the G_DEFINE_TYPE macro	01:40
timelyx	gah	01:40
tko	lucas, having written the python loader, is likely to be able to explain how those things are meant to be implemented	01:41
alterego	Basically a whole section of hildon-desktop is missing.	01:41
alterego	I can't find a single symbol ..	01:41
timelyx	#define glib very(evil)	01:41
derf	FUBMLE!	01:41
derf	Err, wrong channel.	01:41
tko	my initial guess is that you're just doing it wrong :)	01:41
timelyx	<google> did you mean Fumble?	01:41
alterego	Yeah, I'd half agree.	01:41
tko	but since I don't know anything about the details, I'm not claiming that	01:41
alterego	But I've search _every_ shared object on my system for these symbols ..	01:41
timelyx	tko: you're not adventurous enough :)	01:42
tko	alterego: did you look at the python loader?	01:42
alterego	I've built the latest svn release of hildon-desktop too.	01:42
alterego	The loader isn't the problem.	01:42
alterego	I'm either building it wrong. Or I'm right.	01:42
derf	My wireless connection has been lagging pretty badly, so stuff shows up several seconds after I type it, which usually includes hitting Enter.	01:42
alterego	Is the python loader even available for download?	01:42
alterego	I've not seen it, just the source code.	01:42
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tko	pyphantom maybe	01:44
K`zan_800	686M by wireless goes on for a while.	01:45
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K`zan_800	Wish I knew where that was downloading to just to be sure it is really doing something.	01:49
alterego	tko, the symbols are in the intermediate output object file for the build. But I've _literally_ search every .so in the build and can't find the symbol in them.	01:50
alterego	Anyone have any ideas how this could happen?	01:50
alterego	How does a chunk of library go missing :(	01:50
derf	Optimizing linker?	01:51
alterego	Oh .. This is interesting.	01:51
derf	Symbol visibility specifications?	01:52
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alterego	GLOBAL DEFAULT :/	01:52
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kaltsi	someone has defined a function but not implemented it and no-one happens to use it.. happens all the time	01:52
alterego	It's a get_type function generated by G_DEFINE_TYPE	01:53
alterego	I's a shared library for god sake. Of course the function isn't going to be used.	01:53
kaltsi	dunno what I'm talking about anyways, didn't ready anything :)	01:54
kaltsi	I mean if no-one has used it ever then no-one has come across this problem and that's how it could have slipped through the rigorous 24/7 automatic testing	01:55
alterego	Interesting .. It's also in an executable called 'hildon-desktop'	01:55
tko	alterego: I told you that like an hour ago	01:57
alterego	What did you tell me an hour ago	01:58
alterego	?	01:58
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tko	that the function is in executable	01:58
alterego	Oh	01:58
alterego	Wait, I thought you were saying it was in _my_ executable.	01:59
alterego	Are you talking about the UND?	01:59
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alterego	Or the _real_ function location?	01:59
tko	the real one, the one declared in the URL I pasted	01:59
tko	UND just means you're referring to it IIRC	02:00
alterego	Yes	02:00
alterego	Would you mind pasting the link again :)	02:00
alterego	I must have missed it ..	02:00
alterego	(not in back buffer either)	02:00
tko	bleh.. search for the function name in google and it's the first one	02:01
tko	(or the first link is to an older tag, but it's trivial to find the latest version)	02:01
alterego	Oh, you mean the source file?	02:01
alterego	Right, now I get you.	02:01
alterego	That doesn't matter. I've been staring at that file for ages.	02:01
alterego	Okay, so it's in an executable. And I'm supposed to link against that ..	02:03
tko	from the looks of it I'm almost certain the function is implemented in hildon-desktop and thus is available for all plugins	02:03
alterego	Yes, I've seen it implemented in hildon-desktop.	02:03
alterego	So what do I do to access it?	02:03
tko	just use it?	02:04
alterego	Do I directly link against that executable? Or is there a pkg-config?	02:04
tko	if you build a shared library (plugin) and call the function it should just work	02:05
elb	alterego: it sounds like you're building as an executable, and not a library	02:05
alterego	It doesn't.	02:05
elb	libraries are allowed to have unresolved symbols, executables (by default) are not	02:06
alterego	I know.	02:06
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alterego	Hmm ..	02:06
alterego	Okay, my dummy factory plugin loader wouldn't load because hildon-desktop isn't included.	02:06
tko	I wonder what the original error message was in the first place	02:07
alterego	There wasn't one.	02:07
alterego	Well, when the plugin was trying to load, I got: "no loader for plugin type: ruby" or some such.	02:07
alterego	I did post this on the mailing list last week ..	02:08
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* alterego tries again with his skeleton plugin loader plugin.		02:10
alterego	Aha.	02:10
alterego	Genius,	02:10
alterego	I'm getting a different error this time :)	02:11
alterego	That .. Is a good thing.	02:11
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alterego	Nice my loader killed hildon-desktop!	02:18
alterego	That probably should be allowed to happen :/	02:19
alterego	~shouldn't ..	02:19
pupnik	anybody with a n800 / n810 want to try new dosbox? it should be a touch faster	02:20
alterego	pupnik, sure.	02:21
pupnik	pupnik.de/dosbox.html	02:21
pupnik	i put the mapper.txt into cwd right now - eventually will set up dosbox.conf and mapper.txt to go into /etc or something	02:21
alterego	2008?	02:21
_Monkey	2008 is probably the year of the open handheld/phone	02:21
pupnik	it should be work... dunno if it can run on 2008	02:22
pupnik	with the fullscreen key you can toggle fullscreen to use xkbd, which launches automatically now at startup	02:22
pupnik	or just click it away if it annoys	02:22
alterego	I can't install it. I don't think it'll work on 2008 ;)	02:22
alterego	And I like 2008 too much to go back to 2007 O_O	02:23
pupnik	hmm. dpkg -i dosbox*.deb should do it	02:23
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alterego	Cool, it's working :)	02:34
pupnik	please flag me if you see any crashes or serious problems	02:37
alterego	Sure	02:38
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K`zan_800	RX packets:171961 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0	02:51
K`zan_800	about 1/5th the way through the map download now, perhaps by tomorrow morning...	02:52
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K`zan_800	Would be nice to be able to download it to the desktop and USB it over...	02:58
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GeneralAntilles	It'll keep failing if you don't have the extra space	03:18
GeneralAntilles	multiply whatever you're trying to install by two.	03:18
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pupnik	so for downloading maps maybe a 4GB sdhc card is needed?	03:21
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hircus	pupnik: what mapping app?	03:25
hircus	the N810 only has 2GB internal SD, and it's supposedly only 80% full for the US map set	03:25
acydlord	i cant download the US west mapset to my n800 :(	03:26
acydlord	i should probably make some room on my internal card	03:26
pupnik	i aunno	03:27
pupnik	just lots of people in channel complaining about download problems lately	03:27
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acydlord	nokia should offer sd or mini-sd cards with map sets preloaded	03:31
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elb	so, am I understanding things right, that writing an Xlib-based application to be run on the Hildon desktop would require some Hildon-ized glue?	03:44
pupnik	xkbd is pure xlib afaik	03:45
pupnik	to start from a menu you need some wrapper at least	03:45
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elb	a launcher or what-have-you is no trouble	03:46
elb	but, there's a Tk application I use every day, and I'm hoping I can get urxvt fired up	03:46
derf	If you want vkb input, you'll have to do some work.	03:47
elb	the on-screen keyboard?	03:47
elb	... I guess that means it doesn't speak XIM	03:47
derf	Yes.	03:47
elb	curse all these modern environments for reinventing the wheel in nonportable ways	03:48
derf	They have their own protocol for managing when the keyboard is shown, and what window keystrokes go to, etc.	03:48
elb	(no that XIM doesn't completely suck, but all the modern toolkits invent their own input methods)	03:48
elb	so what's the story for handwriting recognition?	03:50
elb	I've seen it mentioned a couple of places, but very little information about it	03:50
derf	I have no idea. I don't use the stock input method at all.	03:50
GeneralAntilles	The handwriting is garbage.	03:51
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GeneralAntilles	(at least from a Newton user's perspective)	03:51
GeneralAntilles	I primarily use the thumbboard.	03:51
derf	It turns out that handwriting recognition is really hard.	03:51
GeneralAntilles	Well, Apple managed to nail it in 1996	03:53
GeneralAntilles	So I'm not sure what the excuse is 10 years later.	03:53
elb	I only used a Newton a couple of times, but I was not impressed	03:54
drcoffee	how about bt kybrd? how does it differ from screen kybrd??	03:54
elb	speaking of keyboards, is yours missing keys?	03:54
GeneralAntilles	You may have used one of the old ones.	03:55
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GeneralAntilles	The 2000-series or better are the ones with good handwriting recognition.	03:55
elb	I used the last-generation eWhatever	03:55
drcoffee	i am using the toothpick to type	03:55
GeneralAntilles	Once you got that thing trained up, it was unbelievable.	03:55
GeneralAntilles	Print completely natural.	03:55
elb	when they made the folding newtons with keyboards	03:56
GeneralAntilles	(cursive interpretter wasn't as good)	03:56
GeneralAntilles	eMate	03:56
elb	yeah	03:56
derf	Cursive is _really_ hard.	03:56
elb	I think taht's the thing -- if you didn't train them for 2000 years, they sucked	03:56
GeneralAntilles	I took all of my notes in high school with a 2100.	03:56
derf	I happen to be doing research in handwriting recognition for my job.	03:56
elb	and I never used one for long enough to train it that well	03:56
GeneralAntilles	Took a couple days to get it up to speed.	03:56
derf	Though, not for English.	03:56
GeneralAntilles	Then, tell me, derf, why has everything since the Newton sucked balls? :P	03:57
* elb smells "nothing will ever be as good as my Amiga" complex ;-)		03:57
GeneralAntilles	Pfft	03:57
elb	I was actually pretty fond of Graffiti	03:57
elb	because it was so accurate	03:57
elb	I don't mind learning a simplified writing if it works well	03:58
GeneralAntilles	Now that's creepy.	03:58
GeneralAntilles	Voice synthesis just spat some kind of jibberish at me.	03:58
derf	Because the academics are all too busy pumping out PhD theses to worry about solving practical problems, and the practitioners don't have enough training to actually know what they're doing.	03:58
GeneralAntilles	The Newton's problem was size.	03:58
drcoffee	what was interesting about the recognition engine for the later Newtons, is that it was developed for a Mac product that got cancelled.	03:59
GeneralAntilles	But it's exactly that size that made it reasonable to write on.	03:59
GeneralAntilles	(Where the hell did I hide my message pads? :\)	03:59
drcoffee	the recog. engine is now part of OSX... if you use a Wacom or similar you can access it	04:00
derf	Anyway, these days people consider the roman alphabet largely a solved problem.	04:00
rhykin	anyone know where I can pick up a maemo development vmware image?	04:04
drcoffee	one of the major problems with most PDAs, is how difficult it was to connect to other machines (what I called "speed bumps") The Palm model of Conduits was as bad as the Newton sync app.	04:04
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drcoffee	rhykin, look on the VMWare website	04:04
drcoffee	(though I like keyboards.... still have an eMate somewhere)	04:05
lophyte	hey all	04:06
drcoffee	derf. don't knock academics until you put yourself through the process.... and we do make contributions to real life problems	04:07
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derf	drcoffee: I have a PhD.	04:08
lopz	hola	04:09
_Monkey	hola, lopz	04:09
drcoffee	ok, then complain.... I am procrastinating finishing an article.... should be grading midterms instead.	04:10
derf	And I'm reading someone's PhD thesis while procrastinating finishing up this contract work.	04:11
elb	and I'm just procrastinating on working on my thesis ;-)	04:12
drcoffee	a fine tuned skill that comes from years of sitting on the hind quarter in front of computers, meetings, etc.	04:13
drcoffee	anyway, I am trying to find out how the BT keyboard gets read. I am finding it quite unpredictable, the delay and repeat rates are set too low and I don't seem to find a way of adjusting the proper parameters (bug #2166... tried the usual things, but to no avail)	04:15
_Monkey	Bug 2166 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2166	04:15
drcoffee	Monkey.... any ideas regarding #2166?	04:16
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elb	stupid infobots	04:16
drcoffee	so, the last time I dealt with keyboards, was when ADB was the Mac standard....	04:17
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drcoffee	is Monkey an infobot? (I don't use irc's often)	04:19
elb	yes	04:19
elb	it saw 'bug #nnnn' and responded	04:20
elb	it's a particularly annoying infobot, because it regularly responds to phrases not directed to it	04:20
drcoffee	stupid monkey	04:23
derf	drcoffee, elb: http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/	04:28
drcoffee	so as you can gather, I filed the bug and have not received much of an answer. I have a bit of time (ok, I am procrastinating) and would like to understand how the bt keyboard events get processessssed	04:29
hircus	derf: interesting	04:30
elb	derf: hah	04:32
derf	When I first read that, I was like, this is the story of my life.	04:34
drcoffee	I'll read it later... when I haave time	04:35
drcoffee	I wonder iif my file cabinet's 3rd drawer is organized?	04:36
derf	There's only one way to find out.	04:36
derf	And I'm pretty sure it involves wiring your file cabinet up with a serial connection and putting it on a web page.	04:37
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acydlord	when is nokia ever going to add MST/Arizona to the osso clock	04:37
acydlord	totally screws the time zones	04:38
drcoffee	no no, that was already done with the coke machine at MIT (they really have too much time on their hands....)	04:39
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derf	my favorite was the guy who did it with the light switch in his dorm room.	04:40
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drcoffee	I was thinking more about writing a proposal for a ethnomethodological study on organizational research.... I could hire undergrads... write a couple of articles, yeah, that sounds like the ticket	04:41
drcoffee	anyway, I should go make some headway on my real work (after a side trip to the espresso machine... not only do I drink coffee, I pull really cool shots and have a killer machine and grinder to help me procrastinate.... life is too short to drink swill)	04:45
elb	amen	04:45
elb	I roast my own	04:46
elb	mostly to procrastinate ;-)	04:46
drcoffee	I train roasters and baristas	04:46
elb	I need to roast a batch tonight	04:46
drcoffee	later	04:46
elb	down to about one more pot	04:46
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pupnik	somebody help me	05:27
pupnik	we need a decent keyboard input method for sdl applications	05:28
K`zan	whatcha need pupnik	05:28
K`zan	Not sure I can help you there :-(.	05:28
pupnik	i'm too stupid to do it	05:28
K`zan	Wish my USB keyboard would work :)	05:28
pupnik	if all maemo people suddenly bought n810s, the problem would be solved	05:29
pupnik	and i sincerely thank Nokia for making the N810	05:29
K`zan	Ain't gonna happen here - not anytime soon that is.	05:29
pupnik	yeah well	05:29
GeneralAntilles	Ha	05:29
GeneralAntilles	But then I would have no storage. :(	05:29
pupnik	another thing that would work would be for a button combination to raise the hildon keyboard	05:30
pupnik	that would then type to any X app - sdl, xlib or gtk	05:30
K`zan	Even with one of the fold up USB keyboards, I am still a LONG way from the price of an 810.	05:30
K`zan	BT keyboards :)	05:30
pupnik	well K`zan just get a bluetooth keyboar	05:30
pupnik	yes	05:30
K`zan	Yep, gonna have to...	05:30
pupnik	GeneralAntilles: can you try new dosbox on n800 pls	05:31
K`zan	Unless I can hack a mini-usb on my usb keyboard and have it work.	05:31
GeneralAntilles	I don't have anything handy to run on it.	05:31
GeneralAntilles	Linky?	05:31
pupnik	http://pupnik.de/dosbox.html	05:31
pupnik	oh ON IT	05:32
pupnik	http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/xu4/ultima4-1.01.zip?download	05:32
GeneralAntilles	Cool, thanks.	05:33
pupnik	the dosbox gurus spent a lot of time with me to make it work on Nokia	05:37
pupnik	they deserve some thanks	05:37
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GeneralAntilles	Where do I need to navigate to to get to the ultima4 folder on my external SD card?	05:45
* GeneralAntilles is the biggest DOS n00b ever.		05:46
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lophyte	\/media/mmc2/ultima4 ?	05:46
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GeneralAntilles	OK, mounted c as /media/mmc1/	05:47
GeneralAntilles	OK, I'm in the right folder	05:48
GeneralAntilles	Now how do I launch it, pupnik? :D	05:48
pupnik	um dosbox	05:49
_Monkey	well, dosbox is about as fast as an IBM XT/AT, available at http://pupnik.de/dosbox_maemo_065_001.tgz	05:49
pupnik	grah that's old	05:49
pupnik	i launch dosbox from xterm from /home/user	05:50
pupnik	and i put the dosbox.conf and mapper.txt there too	05:50
GeneralAntilles	I'm in dosbox	05:50
pupnik	check my page for some info	05:50
pupnik	ah	05:50
pupnik	then you can mount a directory	05:50
pupnik	mount d: /media/mmc1/my/dos/game/path	05:50
pupnik	then type d:	05:50
pupnik	to switch to that drive	05:50
GeneralAntilles	OK	05:51
pupnik	then type the name of the executeable to run	05:51
pupnik	like	05:51
pupnik	ultima	05:51
GeneralAntilles	Schweeeeet	05:52
GeneralAntilles	I suppose I should buy a bluetooth keyboard at some point.	05:54
lophyte	yeah I'm thinking about it	05:57
lophyte	I looked at bluetooth headphones... never realized how expensive they are	05:57
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pupnik	that's baloney,	06:04
pupnik	bluetooth keyboard is godly	06:04
pupnik	headphones are two wires and speakers	06:04
lophyte	BT headphones are like >$95	06:06
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pupnik	and nothing works with them	06:09
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pupnik	don't be arrogant because you have shoes	06:36
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GeneralAntilles	I will be and there's nothing you can do about it. :P	06:50
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pupnik	it is an accident of birth	06:53
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ffoegboy	Has anybody connected a freedom universal bluetooth keyboard to the N800?	07:25
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lopz	bye	07:26
K`zan	Anyone know if a USB keyboard, with USB<->Mini-USB adapter would work on the n800?	07:27
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GeneralAntilles	If it had enough power, K`zan.	07:31
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Kaervak	Has anyone else been unable to change the language on the latest OS2007 Hacker Edition for the N770? The error I get it "Device storage memory full, Remove Data to free memory"	07:39
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l7	K`zan: thoughtfix made a video where he got a usb keyboard to work	07:47
l7	look on youtube for his tablet laptop project	07:47
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l7	it required some fancy splicing of the usb cable to a power source	07:48
K`zan	What do I have to do to allow myself to ssh into the user account on the n800, keep getting "permission denied, please try again". I did log in as root and change user's passwd...	07:48
GeneralAntilles	Just use root	07:49
GeneralAntilles	and su from there.	07:49
K`zan	ah, OK.	07:49
K`zan	Silly message - denied and try again - is denied not denied - perhaps "Not allowed" would make more sense :-).	07:49
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K`zan	Would like to get those bookmarks out and arrange them without tapping for the next six months :)	07:50
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K`zan	No modules so I rather doubt that any USB devices are going to work with the n800 :-/.	08:05
GeneralAntilles	OTG stuff should be fine.	08:05
K`zan	OTG?	08:06
GeneralAntilles	on the go	08:06
K`zan	You mean the BT stuff?	08:06
GeneralAntilles	Basically, it introduces negotiation for host	08:06
GeneralAntilles	No, USB	08:06
* K`zan confused		08:06
GeneralAntilles	Which, really, is just USB trying to pretend to be Firewire.	08:06
GeneralAntilles	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_OTG	08:07
K`zan	unless it is everything module wise built into kernel.	08:07
K`zan	Ah thanks, checking.	08:07
hircus	GeneralAntilles: USB trying to be Firewire is a good thing, surely	08:10
hircus	if only they did that from the beginning	08:10
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	08:10
K`zan	I wonder if I hack a mini-USB on a USB keyboard if it would work?!?	08:10
GeneralAntilles	It still needs power.	08:11
GeneralAntilles	So if it has power, yes.	08:11
K`zan	That is easy enough with the piles of batteries and wall warts around here :)	08:11
K`zan	I that will work I am off to make it up!	08:12
hircus	there are those 6-pin-to-4-pin Firewire cables that come with a power adapter, right?	08:12
hircus	someone should make the same one for USB-to-mini	08:12
K`zan	tapping is fine for on the go, but...	08:12
hircus	K`zan: tried a typing test yet? I'd love to know the speed ratio between N810 built-in, a Bluetooth travel keyboard and a full-sized, full-depth keyboard	08:12
K`zan	hircus: Got to make up one first :-).	08:13
GeneralAntilles	I figure I'm running about 40wpm on the thumbboard on the N800.	08:13
K`zan	Got the keyboard, a cable with a mini-usb to hack and I just need to figure out the power aspect of it.	08:13
hircus	GeneralAntilles: that's really decent	08:16
GeneralAntilles	The key is to use your fingertips (exactly the opposite of what you do on the iPhone).	08:17
hircus	GeneralAntilles: where you use your.. er.. finger pads?	08:19
GeneralAntilles	Basically.	08:19
* hircus wondering about finger smudging .. ugh		08:20
GeneralAntilles	The iPhone doesn't like small stylus-like inputs	08:20
GeneralAntilles	It's actually not bad	08:20
GeneralAntilles	unless you wander around wish a melted Hersheys bar in your hands all day, the iPhone stays fairly clean.	08:20
hircus	well, if you have greasy fingers then you'll spend a lot of time wiping the screen	08:20
GeneralAntilles	(of note, I don't actually own an iPhone, but I did have to get my mother's setup ;))	08:20
hircus	I've briefly tried a friend's, plus trying it in the shop (hint: AT&T, if you chain your iPhone with a short cable, it makes trying it out really awkward)	08:21
GeneralAntilles	Ha	08:22
hircus	funny, though. tell iPhone fans that it's not open and they're quick to say "but the SDK is coming in February!"	08:25
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	08:27
GeneralAntilles	Well, it is. :)	08:27
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hircus	GeneralAntilles: I know. but still, it struck me that Apple fans don't mind monopolistic behavior as long as it's not Microsoft's :)	08:35
GeneralAntilles	Pfft	08:36
GeneralAntilles	Monopolistic	08:36
GeneralAntilles	Now that's a misuse of a term if I ever heard one. ;)	08:36
GeneralAntilles	In order to behave monopolistically, you have to have a monopoly.	08:36
hircus	:)	08:36
GeneralAntilles	Closed and proprietary behavior is what it is.	08:36
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hircus	Apple has a monopoly on iPhone software	08:37
hircus	ah yes, ok	08:37
K`zan	OK, I think I have the circuit worked out...	08:37
GeneralAntilles	I'm saving my determination on the iPhone for the end of next year.	08:38
hircus	my main interaction with Apple right now, as an ex-Mac user, is some cursing whenever I see a podcast site that does not have an RSS feed but has an iTunes subscribe button	08:39
GeneralAntilles	Ha	08:40
* GeneralAntilles is a current user.		08:40
* hircus would have been a current user had Apple updated the Macbooks properly, back in May		08:40
GeneralAntilles	Laptops are garbage. ;)	08:40
hircus	GeneralAntilles: laptops are the new desktops	08:41
GeneralAntilles	There's always OSx86.	08:41
hircus	they are portable workstations :)	08:41
hircus	GeneralAntilles: no thanks. I'm happy with Linux	08:41
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GeneralAntilles	I've tried Linux	08:43
GeneralAntilles	I like my desktop environments to work on the first try.	08:43
GeneralAntilles	I just don't have the time or the patience to deal with all that extra bullshit.	08:43
GeneralAntilles	Especially when it doesn't particularly come with any real benefit.	08:43
hircus	GeneralAntilles: after a while, I can say the same about Windows	08:43
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, but Windows doesn't have bash.	08:44
hircus	one got to be a bit careful with hardware purchases, but otherwise -- heck, even on Windows, installing an HP printer is a painful experience	08:44
hircus	they have that powershell thing -- quite good from what I've seen	08:45
hircus	benefit of Linux vs Mac .. depends on your use case, I'd say.	08:45
hircus	but I'll grant you that for most users, if they can afford a Mac and a more closed platform, go for it	08:46
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GeneralAntilles	It's open where it matters for me.	08:46
GeneralAntilles	I just wish graphics cards weren't such a pain.	08:48
K`zan	crap, that usb keyboard I saved turned out to be PS2, I gave the wrong one to the thrift store...	08:49
GeneralAntilles	Oops	08:49
K`zan	Can get one from same place for about $3.	08:50
K`zan	Will tomorrow.	08:50
K`zan	Or Monday.	08:50
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hircus	K`zan: they'll probably let you swap one for the other?	08:50
K`zan	Would be incredibly cool if this works.	08:50
K`zan	$3 I can afford even with gov bloodsucking, $130 for a BT one is going to take a while :-/.	08:51
K`zan	Shame the fold up one for the PalmV / IBM C3 won't work.	08:52
K`zan	Really nice little portable keyboard.	08:52
hircus	K`zan: $130?? I bought my Stowaway for.. $70 or so	08:52
hircus	the Nokia BT keyboard is rather overpriced	08:52
K`zan	http://www.mobileplanet.com/p.aspx?i=113674&se=550	08:53
K`zan	Best price I have seen, still beyond budget for a while though :-(.	08:54
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hircus	K`zan: ah. I got myself the older Think Outside model. not the Sierra	08:55
hircus	weird, mobileplanet only stocks the TO Sierra	08:55
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hircus	ah duh. mine is the TO iGo :P	08:59
K`zan	:-)	09:06
K`zan	What is the command to show memory usage, I must be getting senile - I can get it off top, but...	09:06
GeneralAntilles	free	09:06
zoran	top	09:06
K`zan	Duhhh, thanks :-)!	09:07
hircus	K`zan: free ?	09:08
K`zan	Yes, thanks.	09:08
K`zan	Already into swap...	09:08
K`zan	Mem: 126828 112476 14352 0 800	09:08
K`zan	Swap: 131064 260 130804	09:09
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GeneralAntilles	Don't worry about it.	09:11
GeneralAntilles	Memory will be freed if its needed	09:11
K`zan	What ,me worry?	09:11
K`zan	:-)	09:11
GeneralAntilles	Ha	09:11
l7	would it be worth it to upgrade that mmc card?	09:12
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K`zan	I don't think so, max you can reallocate is 128M	09:13
K`zan	SD size doesn't appear to matter.	09:13
zoran	K`zan, r u talking about swap space?	09:15
K`zan	I think so :)	09:15
zoran	you think it has some limitation?	09:15
K`zan	From control panel anyway, probably not at the CLI	09:16
zoran	I thought the only lim is the room you gave it	09:16
K`zan	Still am not at a full understanding of the difference between embedd and "normal"	09:17
zoran	not sure for flash	09:17
GeneralAntilles	128 is the max you can assign in the GUI.	09:17
zoran	ah, k	09:17
K`zan	Under Control-Panel -> memory->virtual max is 128M	09:17
GeneralAntilles	You really don't need more.	09:17
zoran	but it is just a button on the gui	09:17
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GeneralAntilles	The flash is slow enough that more wouldn't help.	09:17
K`zan	should be 2x "ram" ??	09:17
K`zan	Which should make it 256M here...	09:17
GeneralAntilles	Just leave it.	09:18
zoran	k, I rarely use swap	09:18
K`zan	Yes Sir! :-)	09:18
K`zan	Not much into it...	09:18
GeneralAntilles	If there were some benefit to be had, by increasing it, somebody woulda put together a script.	09:18
zoran	probably not an issue on device like this; it is on servers	09:19
K`zan	Oh, does anyone know if "Map" in 2008 is the same as maemo mapper?	09:19
GeneralAntilles	Actually, striping it between the internal and external sounds fun.	09:19
GeneralAntilles	It's not, K`zan.	09:19
GeneralAntilles	It's the Wayfinder stuff.	09:19
K`zan	Ah, want to look at that when it gets ported.	09:19
GeneralAntilles	Hang on	09:19
K`zan	Map seems a bit clunky, but then again those things do a lot withi 160 bogos :)	09:20
GeneralAntilles	Let me pull it from the logs.	09:21
K`zan	??	09:21
K`zan	Standing by.	09:21
ol_schoola	I put 2008 Map against a brand new Magellan. It wasn't pretty.	09:23
zoran	not the same kind of device	09:24
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ol_schoola	Last night I loaded m-mapper and all i can say is, wow	09:24
ol_schoola	zoran: of course, but i was putting it into perspective to what a real world audience would see	09:24
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GeneralAntilles	Why the hell can't Colloquy dump the logs in plaintext?	09:25
zoran	I think the real audience are kids with multimedia in minds	09:25
GeneralAntilles	I can't find the link	09:26
GeneralAntilles	chelli did a port	09:26
GeneralAntilles	but these logs are garbage.	09:26
ol_schoola	there's that but i was still speaking from the navigation crowd perspective, so i see your point	09:26
zoran	mac chat client?	09:26
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	09:26
GeneralAntilles	It's good minus the shitty logging.	09:26
ol_schoola	agreed	09:26
GeneralAntilles	http://people.debian.org/~tschmidt/maemo/chinook/maemo-mapper/	09:27
GeneralAntilles	K`zan	09:27
ol_schoola	i've been following this channel for just over a week and -- as usual -- it's easier to use the web archives to extract useable data ;)	09:27
zoran	there are some plugins for colloquy	09:27
ol_schoola	do tell...	09:27
K`zan	GeneralAntilles: Thanks checking now.	09:28
ol_schoola	the mbp and n800 are both very new to me. so many things to learn....	09:28
K`zan	I presume I want the .deb ?	09:29
GeneralAntilles	Yeah.	09:29
K`zan	Yep :-)	09:30
K`zan	LOL	09:30
K`zan	Unable to install, some app pkgs rqd are missing.	09:30
GeneralAntilles	Which?	09:31
K`zan	libgdbm3	09:31
GeneralAntilles	You may have luck adding the bora repo.	09:31
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ol_schoola	hah, got me too. i'm just about six days riper than K-man	09:32
K`zan	I can wait.	09:32
ol_schoola	nah, just add repository.maemo.org bora and all is fine	09:32
ol_schoola	'free non-free' i think?	09:33
GeneralAntilles	free non-free extras	09:33
K`zan	errr, ah, um, well...	09:33
ol_schoola	extras? i missed that	09:33
GeneralAntilles	Optional.	09:33
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GeneralAntilles	But it can't hurt.	09:33
ol_schoola	thx	09:34
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K`zan	Adding that repository does what - lets the install chase down the library out of the old release?	09:35
ol_schoola	K`zan: egg-sact-ly	09:36
ol_schoola	in other words, it makes it happy	09:36
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K`zan	I see repository.maemo.org but no extras	09:38
GeneralAntilles	Add it to your application catalogs.	09:38
K`zan	or should I just manually add it as http://repository.maemo.org/extras	09:39
ol_schoola	just put 'free non-free' below the URL, forget extras for now	09:39
K`zan	or should I just manually add it as http://repository.maemo.org/non-free	09:39
GeneralAntilles	No	09:40
zoran	repository.maemo.org/extras sounds better	09:40
GeneralAntilles	http://repository.maemo.org/	09:40
GeneralAntilles	bore	09:40
GeneralAntilles	free non-free extras	09:40
GeneralAntilles	Trust me here. ;)	09:40
zoran	k	09:40
ol_schoola	extras isn't needed,/me after re-edumacation, ol_schoola agrees with General	09:41
ol_schoola	GeneralAntilles: I've had little time in the last couple of days to keep track	09:41
GeneralAntilles	I've had 2 years. :D	09:41
ol_schoola	maemo site went down, right? back up again?	09:41
K`zan	SStrangely enough I have that repository	09:41
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	09:41
GeneralAntilles	It was down Friday-Saturday morning.	09:42
GeneralAntilles	US EST	09:42
K`zan	Not disabled, so it should have picked up the library?	09:42
GeneralAntilles	Likely	09:42
GeneralAntilles	Hit refresh.	09:42
ol_schoola	ok, is there an RSS feed that keeps track of such things like this? announcements of 07->08 portings? stuff like that?	09:42
K`zan	rr	09:42
zoran	for me it was quick as never	09:42
GeneralAntilles	planet	09:42
_Monkey	planet is dead again...	09:42
GeneralAntilles	sorta	09:42
GeneralAntilles	but not really.	09:42
K`zan	Looks like it kept the repositories I put in under 2007 ?!?	09:43
GeneralAntilles	That's what backup does.	09:43
GeneralAntilles	Dunno why it wouldn't be finding it.	09:43
K`zan	Ok, refreshed, try the mm install again.	09:43
GeneralAntilles	Could try an apt-get install libgdm3 as root.	09:43
ol_schoola	that worked for me	09:44
zoran	maemo.org is fast I cannot believe	09:44
K`zan	pt-get install libgdbm3	09:45
K`zan	woiks :)	09:45
K`zan	Not to try mm again.	09:45
ol_schoola	zoran: seems that way	09:46
K`zan	Success!	09:47
K`zan	Since that worked: apt-get install kde :-)	09:47
ol_schoola	i've got a pile of pieces/parts that want to become a new mythtv master backend	09:47
ol_schoola	i can't seem to find the motivation	09:47
zoran	K`zan, u have kde on now?	09:48
K`zan	No, I don't, just kidding :)	09:48
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zoran	:)	09:48
K`zan	Not on the N800 anyway - everything else here but the laptop has it though.	09:48
ol_schoola	hmm, how do themes work across releases? easier question: where are the good themes for 2008?	09:50
GeneralAntilles	None	09:50
GeneralAntilles	Just wait	09:50
zoran	heh, the matter of taste	09:50
GeneralAntilles	Big UI changes for OS2008	09:50
ol_schoola	gotchya	09:50
GeneralAntilles	I like Glasser, though.	09:50
ol_schoola	i thought i saw a screenshot of a 08 app with a funky theme	09:51
zoran	gui stylists like strong colors, as I see	09:51
GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/n800.html <- Glasser	09:51
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ol_schoola	i gravitate toward the mellower of themes	09:51
ol_schoola	prefer incadescent over flourescent	09:52
zoran	yes, the simpler, the better	09:52
K`zan	Cool, I can run gpsd on the laptop and get at my GPSMAP76CS that way - kind of dumb - all I have done is add the N800 to the laptop and GPS to lug around...	09:52
zoran	or ask nasa to locate your position in 3d	09:53
K`zan	flite runs on the N800? Wow.	09:53
K`zan	My sister in law retired here a few years ago, don't know anyone there anymore :(.	09:53
GeneralAntilles	I always forget to turn it off when I'm listening to audio books in the car.	09:53
GeneralAntilles	Then in blares on unimaginably loud.	09:54
GeneralAntilles	Scares the crap outta me.	09:54
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K`zan	Wonder if MM also loads flite.	09:55
zoran	f for finish?	09:55
K`zan	Didn't see it in any of the repositories I looked at.	09:55
K`zan	voice synth, light version	09:56
zoran	with all intergration, n810 has no phone, which would be easier than gps	09:57
ol_schoola	not by a long shot	09:59
ol_schoola	gps is embedded on a chip for all practical purposes	09:59
ol_schoola	phone requires several subsystems, many on their own chips	09:59
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gla55_	political decision anyhow	10:00
ol_schoola	nokia has an idea of what they're doing	10:00
zoran	they probably know what are they doing	10:00
ol_schoola	just wish they'd give us a little better idea of their idea	10:00
zoran	:)	10:00
K`zan	Best choice of maps for MM? What is comes with is pretty grainy and no roads either.	10:01
GeneralAntilles	Google sat/maps	10:01
ol_schoola	start with google, compare adainst VE, add hybrid if you have a really big card	10:01
zoran	must to say that I would never need maps, till i saw them available	10:01
K`zan	Got two sets if repositories, cleaning it up...	10:02
ol_schoola	google sat pics always have the grass and trees looking brown and dead, ve has them very green	10:02
zoran	btw, the big competitor could be asus eee pc	10:02
GeneralAntilles	Bull	10:03
GeneralAntilles	The Eee isn't pocketable.	10:03
zoran	depends of pocket size	10:03
GeneralAntilles	Pfft	10:03
GeneralAntilles	The NEWTON depended on pocket size.	10:03
GeneralAntilles	The Asus is hardly better than a laptop. ;)	10:03
ol_schoola	i had a Newton	10:03
GeneralAntilles	I have two. :D	10:03
GeneralAntilles	There are no competitors for the NITs.	10:04
ol_schoola	ah hah! i KNEW you had some grey hairs!	10:04
GeneralAntilles	Ha	10:05
GeneralAntilles	I bought them on ebay.	10:05
ol_schoola	a most intriguing yet unuseable device	10:05
zoran	gray hairs?	10:05
GeneralAntilles	Used mine in high school 2001-2006 ;)	10:05
ol_schoola	if you had a Newton when it first came out, odds are, you are sporting the starts of gray	10:05
ol_schoola	crap, HS was 82-86 for me	10:05
* GeneralAntilles is 20.		10:05
ol_schoola	they came around in, what, 96?	10:07
GeneralAntilles	1991	10:07
GeneralAntilles	Original	10:07
_Monkey	well, Original is fine, converted is not	10:07
ol_schoola	wow	10:07
GeneralAntilles	The 2000 was 1996	10:07
ol_schoola	i'm git'in really ole....	10:07
kulve	zerojay: did you sort out the sid-support problem?	10:08
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zoran	talking about old hardware, I'm logged now on cray y/mp	10:11
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K`zan_800	Night folks! Thanks for all.	10:36
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ol_schoola	zoran: this was the starting point for my twice weekly foothills run when i lived out west	10:42
ol_schoola	http://www.ucar.edu/communications/quarterly/spring97/computing.html	10:42
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keesj	is there video calling on the n810?	11:40
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Jaffa	Morning, all	12:04
keesj	Hi Jaffa	12:04
Jaffa	lo keesj	12:05
Jaffa	How's maemo.org this morning?	12:06
msh	hm. any rumours when nokia're going to actually start selling n810s?	12:06
Jaffa	There're rumours it can be bought by phone in the US already; with some confusion over shipping dates.	12:07
msh	ah, preorder style?	12:08
* Jaffa 's expectation is the middle of next week; Texrat says it's been "well-advertised" it's been delayed a week; but a) we don't know when the original date was; b) he's the only source		12:08
Jaffa	Right, today's jobs - once showered - are to finish off the mediautils website, make mediaserv aware of both 770-encode and tablet-encode and put out v0.05	12:10
keesj	Yea, I also need to start doing something :p	12:22
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tapo	http://maemo.org has errors	12:22
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keesj	The site is slow , full or errors and a real pain when logged in. not much fun I would say	12:23
keesj	just not proffesional i would say	12:24
keesj	it redifines the worl wide waiting	12:25
keesj	but the app catalogue is cool :p	12:25
kulve	keesj: did you already vote in bug #2308? :)	12:25
_Monkey	Bug 2308 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2308	12:25
keesj	just done!	12:27
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keesj	and now I need to apply for a job at maemo :P	12:31
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unique311	keesj, you the dev for mamona?	12:36
keesj	I the what?	12:36
guardian	morning	12:37
_Monkey	aloha	12:37
keesj	unique311: did compile mamona and install it.	12:38
unique311	how is it treating you?	12:38
keesj	It feels great to have a fully self compiled system running.	12:39
unique311	was thing about trying out different stuff rumored to be working on the n800 while waiting on the new os to come out.	12:39
unique311	k	12:39
keesj	it also opens the door to using recent compilers etc. I guess what really would be great is to have the hidlon stuff into mamona/oe	12:40
unique311	can you install stuff compile for os2007	12:42
keesj	I did not try that I guess not since the libs are more recent and it's not based on the same debian packages	12:43
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unique311	well going to give it a try.	12:44
unique311	just hope i don't screw up my n800 before the os2008 comes out.	12:44
keesj	it did not replace the kernel, but I had a dual boot setup that was messed up :(	12:45
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unique311	i want to give angstrom a go	12:47
keesj	unique311: yea. idem here.	12:48
unique311	idem?	12:48
keesj	but mamona is also oe based so it was a good start. I also am trying to run angstrom on a 2430osk board as we speak	12:49
_Monkey	okay, keesj.	12:49
keesj	idem dito = the same here	12:49
unique311	koen, need documentation on how to install	12:49
unique311	k	12:49
keesj	http://embedded-system.net/mistral-releases-2430-osk-omap2430-starter-kit-and-the-linux-bsp.html	12:49
unique311	hefty price tag on that thing.	12:51
rafl	does Ian Lawrence happen to be in this channel?	12:51
keesj	yes. it's not mine :p	12:52
monkeyiq	Hi, anyone know if the opensuse build system has support for maemo?	12:53
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monkeyiq	I am sort of toying with either using bitbake or obs to build packages... but I tend to do more desktop/server packaging so obs might be a better bit	12:55
keesj	is ther any build system with support for maemo?	12:57
keesj	unique311: do you want to try microb on mamona?	12:58
monkeyiq	OE has conf/distro/maemo-1.0.conf but I've not looked into it yet	12:58
unique311	its not installed yet	12:58
unique311	but i'll take a link.	12:58
unique311	i'm also in #mamona	12:58
keesj	you need to ask koen about it there are also n800 an 770 definitions	12:59
unique311	give me the link there	12:59
rafl	why is maemos glib compiled without thread support?	12:59
tko	rafl: ?	13:01
rafl	g_thread_supported returns FALSE	13:01
tko	it doesn't mean what you think it means	13:01
rafl	so what does it mean?	13:02
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tko	http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-Threads.html#g-thread-supported	13:02
tko	see g_thread_init above	13:02
rafl	whops	13:02
tko	it really should be named g_thread_initialized or something	13:03
rafl	then I wonder why an applikation using g_thread_init fails to compile due to linking errors	13:03
rafl	i.e. int main (...) { g_thread_init (NULL); return 0; }	13:05
rafl	other glib functions seem to work well though	13:05
tko	you're not linking with gthread?	13:06
xan-afk	use the output of pkg-config --libs gthread-2.0 to link...	13:07
rafl	oh noes	13:07
rafl	thanks	13:07
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rafl	I wonder why dpkg-deb --control could fail on the device while it works well with the same package within the sdk as well as with a normal debian system	13:17
rafl	"unexpected end of file in version number in $package" is what it says.	13:18
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rafl	hooray! liferea on maemo 4 :-)	13:39
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timelyx	_monk forget but manona	13:42
timelyx	_monkey forget but manona	13:42
_Monkey	timelyx, I didn't have anything matching but manona	13:42
timelyx	_monkey forget manona	13:42
_Monkey	timelyx, I didn't have anything matching manona	13:42
timelyx	_monkey forget but mamona	13:43
_Monkey	timelyx, I didn't have anything matching but mamona	13:43
timelyx	_monkey forget mamona	13:43
_Monkey	timelyx: I forgot mamona	13:43
unique311	mamona?	13:44
timelyx	well, it won't be anything now :)	13:44
* timelyx should have asked _Monkey what it was first..		13:44
unique311	i just flashed it...aside from looking good...	13:45
unique311	can do anything with it.	13:45
timelyx	heh	13:45
unique311	but its running.	13:45
unique311	animated wallpaper and all	13:45
timelyx	i thought that the goal of oss was to look pretty and do pretty much nothing	13:45
timelyx	does it burn battery nicely?	13:45
unique311	its still aalive on battery	13:45
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unique311	i'll let you know	13:45
unique311	don't have it plugged in.	13:46
rafl	I wonder what I fucked up in order for all things to look like normal gtk instead of the way I'm used to from maemo	13:48
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murrayc_	rafl: Are you using run-standalone.sh?	13:52
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rafl	I'm using whatever maemo uses on this device to run things	13:53
rafl	also some applications still look like they used to	13:54
rafl	but the browser, for example, doesn't	13:54
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murrayc_	Oh, I thought you were developing rather than just using.	14:03
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lopz	hola	14:52
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lopz	bye	15:05
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p\|	yo	15:06
alterego	Yope	15:08
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lophyte	morning all	16:20
p\|_	ciao	16:21
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konttori	hey, is there glade support for python on the device?	16:38
alterego	As far as I know .. Yes.	16:39
konttori	ahh... good.	16:39
konttori	can't find it mentioned in the components: http://pymaemo.garage.maemo.org/documentation.html#components	16:39
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Juhaz	konttori, it's part of pygtk	16:44
konttori	ahh... good. thanks!	16:44
konttori	this is actually great news.	16:44
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konttori	I decided to waste some time making pysqlitegui to work properly on the device and extend its functionalities a bit	16:45
konttori	I was fearing that I'd have to re-write the GUI to use gtk directly instead of through glade	16:45
konttori	saves a lot of time.	16:45
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Jaffa	Comments welcome on the finished site for tablet-encode/mediaserv: http://mediautils.garage.maemo.org/index.php	16:48
visy	nice	16:49
timelyx	Jaffa: s/playback/play back/	16:52
timelyx	(v)	16:52
keesj	Jaffa: I would try to make more clear that is a web-application / pc component	16:52
keesj	it's not because it's called mediaserver that it does not run on the maemo platform	16:52
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keesj	funny video	16:52
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Jaffa	keesj: good point	16:54
Jaffa	timelyx: fair enough	16:54
keesj	just about the software , I guess that nokia has included some sort for mime type to add rss video feeds to the media-server	16:55
timelyx	Jaffa: you're missing from backchannel	16:55
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sys_n800	hello	17:10
sys_n800	can someone please tell me, how to lunch a console on the nokia n800?	17:11
zoran	from menu on the left side of the screen	17:11
zoran	if you installed it	17:11
kaltsi	you need to install osso-xterm	17:11
timelyx	the same way you launch anything else you've installed? :) some installation required :)	17:12
kaltsi	install it from here http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2007/osso-xterm-advanced	17:12
alterego	He's probably not installed it ..	17:12
sys_n800	kk i see, going to install it, thx	17:12
timelyx	02:18 alterego Nice my loader killed hildon-desktop!	17:13
timelyx	02:19 alterego That probably should[n't] be allowed to happen :/	17:13
timelyx	alterego: if you write a kernel module, should it be allowed to cause a kernel panic?	17:13
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alterego	No, I don't think that should be allowed to happen either.	17:14
timelyx	desktop plugins are to hildon-desktop what kernel modules are to kernels	17:14
timelyx	i wonder if linus would say you shouldn't be allowed to write kernel modules :)	17:14
alterego	So you think it's okay that anyone can write a plugin that crashes the whole desktop?	17:15
timelyx	(he might not, i dunno)	17:15
timelyx	i think most people who do write plugins do write plugins that crash the desktop	17:15
timelyx	i've used quite a few of them	17:15
alterego	Heh	17:15
timelyx	i've also gotten them to improve the behavior wrt that	17:15
timelyx	(really)	17:15
elb	the benefit of using a loaded scripting language is that the loader designer can work to prevent that in many, most, or all cases	17:16
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sys_n800	do i have to set a root pw to make su?	17:17
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timelyx	no	17:17
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timelyx	the root password is well known	17:17
timelyx	you might consider changing it	17:17
alterego	It's your mothers' maiden name.	17:17
zoran	sudoers file is the one that man should read first, not to be suprised all the time	17:19
sys_n800	where is this file?	17:20
zoran	heh, in /etc	17:20
timelyx	man sudoers ?	17:20
timelyx	oddly, linux is supposed to have documentation, even for files	17:20
timelyx	although, don't try this on a device	17:21
zoran	that file took 10 years of my life when I got the device	17:21
sys_n800	i tried man, but is not installed	17:21
zoran	google for it	17:21
sys_n800	kk	17:21
kaltsi	sys_n800: do you want to use sudo or just get root access?	17:22
zoran	someone encountered unicos? I need manual for it	17:22
kulve	how do I turn off the display on n800?	17:23
timelyx	kulve: acpi/dsme	17:23
kulve	timelyx: was that a hint, a guess or what?	17:24
sys_n800	i want to edit sources.list.... and thouht setting a root pw would be nice	17:24
timelyx	kulve: been there, read that	17:24
zoran	via ssh should be the easiest way	17:24
kulve	sys_n800: install ssh, login through ssh as root, change the passwd, edit the file	17:24
timelyx	sys_n800: wrong	17:24
timelyx	application manager will edit sources.list	17:24
kulve	timelyx: well, that's nice. Doesn't really help me.	17:24
timelyx	kulve: those are the answers	17:25
timelyx	acpi is quite public	17:25
timelyx	although dsme will trump it	17:25
timelyx	so you'll want to appease dsme	17:25
zoran	does it show something on sysctl -a ?	17:25
sys_n800	kulve; ok and whats the root pw?	17:25
kulve	sys_n800: rootme	17:25
_Monkey	rootme is the default pw?	17:25
kulve	zoran: nope (at least no display or screen words when I grepped it)	17:26
Jaffa	Hmm, why do I get the feeling that although the planet's up - it's not updating?	17:26
alterego	Jaffa, it's actually regressed :/	17:26
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sys_n800	kulve; rootme doesnt work	17:29
zoran	kulve, on bsd there is the way to see all acpi variables; I think linux writes it to separate files	17:29
Jaffa	alterego: gah, then posting http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2007/11/18/mediaserv_tablet_encode_mediautils cos I thought it was quiet was a bad idea.	17:29
alterego	sys_n800, you need to be in R&D mode.	17:29
kulve	alterego: why?	17:29
sys_n800	how?	17:29
alterego	To become root.	17:29
kaltsi	alterego it's not necessary	17:30
alterego	Really?	17:30
zoran	or change gainroot by the hand	17:30
_Monkey	zoran: that doesn't look right	17:30
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kulve	sys_n800: if you are logging with ssh, the rootme should work and there's no need for r&d mode	17:30
alterego	I was missinformed then ;)	17:30
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alterego	Oh, I thought you were talking about su	17:30
kaltsi	if you install ssh then you can login as root.. to use 'sudo gainroot' you need to be in RD mode	17:30
sys_n800	kulve; i need to enter a sudo pw to start the sshd!	17:30
zoran	the point in gainroot is that it could be changed	17:31
kulve	sys_n800: what..?	17:31
kulve	sys_n800: use application manager to install the openssh. It will start it automatically	17:31
sys_n800	ahh	17:31
sys_n800	kk i ll try	17:31
kaltsi	or 1-click install from here: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2007/openssh	17:32
sys_n800	i did that	17:32
kaltsi	then sshd should be running	17:32
sys_n800	kk	17:33
kaltsi	then you should be able to ssh root@localhost from the xterm	17:33
kulve	or from your desktop, if you have a proper network access to your n800. It's much easier to use a real keyboard :)	17:35
sys_n800	thought so too, heh	17:35
zoran	you have to find ip address of the device firts	17:36
alterego	Not if you're connecting from the device ..	17:36
alterego	ssh root@localhost just like kaltsi said ..	17:36
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zoran	he was talking about remote access	17:37
sys	ok, a real keyboard here :)	17:37
sys	thc	17:37
sys	thxc	17:37
sys	i connected via ssh and changed the pw; i've WifiInfo installed :)	17:37
alterego	You'll want to check out the network manager to get the IP address then.	17:37
alterego	Ah, cool.	17:37
sys	everything a bit new :)	17:38
zoran	and disable remote root connection then	17:38
kulve	yeah, the IP can be get from the connection manager's menu	17:38
timelyx	alterego: fwiw, from what i can tell the reason plugins are plugins instead of processes is that on the 770 there weren't enough resources to load a bunch of apps w/ the same stupid libs half a dozen times	17:38
sys	kk	17:38
timelyx	so they decided to risk cooperative plugins	17:38
timelyx	and expected plugin devs not to suck	17:38
alterego	:)	17:39
sys	how else can i log in, if i disabled sshd root login?	17:39
timelyx	you wouldn't?	17:39
zoran	user firts	17:39
alterego	Well, I don't really mind having to restart hildon everytime I run my loader :./	17:39
timelyx	good for you?	17:39
timelyx	don't ask me why anyone would trust devs not to suck	17:39
alterego	Yeah	17:39
* timelyx thinks that's one of the dumbest assumptions out there		17:39
timelyx	but anyway, they cut a corner, and overall, it works	17:40
sys	zoran: what users? i don't see any other user in /etc/passwd	17:40
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timelyx	as long as it bites the dev before he delivers	17:40
timelyx	instead of the customer after the dev delivers	17:40
timelyx	it's all good	17:40
zoran	sys, you are "user" user	17:40
timelyx	dev fixes, delivery ok, ... happy user	17:40
timelyx	unfortunately, i was a user, and i got a bunch of those plugins, after delivery	17:41
sys	so i should first do a passwd user before diconnecting and disabling root:D	17:41
timelyx	but anyway, i already complained and made them improve things :)	17:41
zoran	sys, see manual for openssh first; it is a good manner to login first as user, then su/sudo to root	17:41
sys	zoran: yes yes, but that's not what i meant... i am going to do that anyway... you're right	17:42
pupnik	so chicago is still the only place to buy a N810 eh	17:42
zoran	cannot recall the exact name of conf file for ssh, but there is an option to disable root login from ssh	17:43
Andy80	hi all	17:43
zoran	sys, for sshd	17:43
sys	zoran: /etc/ssh/sshd --> PermitRootLogin No	17:43
zoran	correct	17:43
zoran	you login as user, then su to root	17:44
zoran	or sudo gainroot	17:44
sys	but login via ssh as user and the su means: applet require root privilegdes	17:44
zoran	sys, change gainroot first, of course, not to be cut off of the device	17:44
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zoran	there is an MODE option, which should read "MODE=enabled #"	17:45
sys	zoran: just saw that. but i have to leave for a couple of minutes.	17:45
zoran	find doc about it _first_	17:45
sys	ill be back later and do this :)	17:45
zoran	:)	17:46
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Andy80	why Planet Maemo is not updated in these days?	17:50
timelyx	did anyone file a bug?	17:50
timelyx	but i'm sure the fact that it's a weekend doesn't help matters	17:50
kulve	bug #2308 is about maemo.org being broken too often	17:51
_Monkey	Bug 2308 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2308	17:51
kulve	vote there, if you agree	17:51
timelyx	garage has plenty of space on it atm	17:51
timelyx	and claims to have been up for 12 days	17:51
timelyx	heh, someone tried to visit /projcts	17:53
timelyx	one of the other servers has ~4g free	17:55
timelyx	which could be a problem, in a few years, i suppose	17:55
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timelyx	it's been up for >150 days (which isn't bad, although my box at work has been up for >200)	17:56
timelyx	i need to consider whether i want to switch to xen	17:56
timelyx	of course, w/ xen, uptime is kinda an odd thing to calculate	17:56
timelyx	my zones currently have uptimes of about 1 day, vs. 200days for the host	17:57
Andy80	timelyx: who manage the maemo.org server?	17:57
timelyx	ferenc	17:57
timelyx	(one person)	17:57
Andy80	ok	17:57
timelyx	if i thought something was critical, i'd give him a call	17:57
timelyx	i've done so in the past	17:58
timelyx	you guys haven't justified me ruining his weekend	17:58
Andy80	no, don't worry, don't disturb him :)	17:58
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timelyx	note that technically bugging him is done via the web ui	18:01
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akv_	anyone got gtalk working with itos2008?	18:02
zuh	timelyx: So one can complain that the website doesn't work through the website? I think I can see why fixing it takes some time... ;)	18:02
timelyx	zuh: shrug wfm	18:05
Andy80	zuh: :D	18:05
timelyx	at mozilla.org, when bugzilla is down, nagios sends out pages	18:06
timelyx	for anything else, bugzilla receives reports, and nagios will send out pages if the reports aren't handled in a timely manner	18:06
timelyx	(actually, nagios will probably page people for hundreds of things, those are only 2)	18:06
Andy80	anyway.,... I'm worried about applications for Os2008...	18:07
Andy80	actually we have only 20 apps for os2008, while Os2007 has near 200	18:07
timelyx	why?	18:07
Andy80	the SDK was released lot of days ago	18:07
timelyx	the n810 has been around for a few weeks tops	18:07
Andy80	and only few people have ported their apps to os2008 :(	18:07
timelyx	the n800 has been around for what, 10 months?	18:07
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akv_	Andy80: those apps will be ported..i'm not worried :)	18:08
kulve	you can't release an app, if it compiles in SDK. You have to test it	18:08
kulve	and you can't test it, if you don't have the device	18:08
Andy80	kulve: ehm... same problem here :)	18:08
pupnik	lets hope the N9x0 will have 2x or 4x the space on root filesystem	18:08
Andy80	I just ported SPIM to Chinook, but I cannot test it yet	18:08
kulve	yeah, that's the reason there is no apps for n810 yet :)	18:08
akv_	itos2008 looks very promising	18:09
zuh	Andy80: It was the same with 2005&2006 and 2006&2007 too...	18:09
timelyx	pupnik: you do realize that the naming convention at nokia isn't remotely close to sane, right?	18:09
kulve	pupnik: why?	18:09
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pupnik	because many games take up 5-20 megs and one about 200 megs for data	18:09
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Andy80	pupnik: you could put data on the SD card	18:09
timelyx	kulve: last i checked, apt wasn't friendly to installing apps outside of the standard unix paths	18:10
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zoran	depends where installer puts it	18:10
timelyx	Andy80: fwiw, that's actually a losing proposition	18:10
timelyx	i just played w/ an n81-8g	18:10
timelyx	and believe me, you're very unhappy when you plug it in via usb	18:10
timelyx	either your apps go haywire	18:10
timelyx	or your system refuses to export usb until you guess which apps are using the device	18:10
timelyx	good luck	18:10
* konttori loves n81 (with picodrive)		18:10
Andy80	timelyx: that's true...	18:11
pupnik	i could make an install script in the deb package to symlink /usr/local/share to a dir on mmc	18:11
timelyx	konttori: my n81 8gb is full	18:11
timelyx	podcaster refuses to download more stuff	18:11
timelyx	it's complaining i'm out of space	18:11
timelyx	:)	18:11
Andy80	N81? lucky you :) I still have my N73 ;)	18:11
konttori	yeah, well, 8 gigs is still quite good starting point	18:11
timelyx	Andy80: all actions are logged	18:11
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timelyx	konttori: i filled it up in what, 3 days?	18:11
timelyx	i don't think there's any reasonable way to unfill or manage it	18:12
konttori	otoh n810 and the 2 gb would also be pretty good if we had it in ext fs.	18:12
Andy80	timelyx: why? I mean,.. why they're logged?	18:12
konttori	I filled it immediately (although upload took about 3 hours via usb	18:12
timelyx	Andy80: anyone here mentioning this toy is participating in a study	18:12
konttori	anyway, I have now 1 gb of free space	18:12
timelyx	we promise to have our actions logged	18:12
timelyx	konttori: i have <1/2gb free	18:12
timelyx	and whatever the number is, it's small enough that podcaster won't download	18:12
konttori	plenty of room for picodrive ;)	18:12
pupnik	agree konttori - at least the developer can assume the 2GB will not be removed on N810 - i believe it is mmc2?	18:12
Andy80	timelyx: ahhh ok ok... something like "debug" version :)	18:12
suihkulokki	I wonder if the keylogger works when you run out of space =)	18:13
konttori	yeah.	18:13
timelyx	Andy80: not really	18:13
timelyx	pupnik: no	18:13
pupnik	mmc1?	18:13
_Monkey	rumour has it mmc1 is accessible	18:13
timelyx	usb works the same way on the n810 as it does on the n81	18:13
konttori	and you cal always require the internal (mmc2) to be present. (or fall back to mmc1 if it isn't)	18:13
timelyx	you attach it, and the mmcs go away	18:13
timelyx	if you have open files when this happens	18:13
timelyx	bad things will probably happen	18:13
konttori	internal is mmc2, external mmc1	18:13
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konttori	well, it won't mount mmc to usb if it's in use	18:14
timelyx	browser team is currently trying to determine just how bad	18:14
Andy80	anyway, 2 gb on mmc2 is a lot of space :)	18:14
timelyx	konttori: define in use?	18:14
konttori	so, bad things won't happen, it just won't mount to your desktop	18:14
konttori	as in it has read / write locks to any files on the mmc	18:14
konttori	as in any application has such locks	18:14
timelyx	if it's between locks...	18:14
suihkulokki	due to the circumstances mentioned by timelyx (+ some others, mainly that you have to use FAT), I have become to the conclusion that mass storage mode for USB must die	18:15
Andy80	uhm.... no... wait..... if mmc2 is not accessible... how can I transfer files to it from my desktop?	18:15
timelyx	or has already asserted the file system exists but hasn't locked yet	18:15
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pupnik	anyway, big game data can't sensibly be put into a .deb anyway, as it needs to be downloaded first to the apt cache	18:15
konttori	true	18:15
timelyx	suihkulokki: the right solution is probably a proxy	18:15
zoran	anyway, is it fat formatted?	18:15
timelyx	which doesn't provide raw access if the system is in some mode	18:15
trevarthan	anyone know the default device lock code on the n810 firmware?	18:15
timelyx	but instead offers emulated access	18:15
timelyx	the perf would be much worse	18:16
timelyx	but at least you could share	18:16
konttori	12345	18:16
konttori	think	18:16
timelyx	yes	18:16
timelyx	but it's in the manual	18:16
timelyx	why didn't you read it?	18:16
timelyx	bad boy	18:16
trevarthan	no. 12345 doesn't work	18:16
sys	12345 is the default lock code	18:16
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konttori	timelyx: yeah, emulated fat would be an ideal solution	18:16
trevarthan	even on the leaked n810 firmware?	18:16
konttori	for mounting through usb	18:17
timelyx	trevarthan: oh, you don't have the manual because you stole the firmware?	18:17
konttori	try 1234 and 0000	18:17
timelyx	i think i left my n810 manual at work :)	18:17
trevarthan	nope	18:17
zoran	or mrroring to nas and rotating in appropriate way	18:17
konttori	00000?	18:17
Andy80	n810 manual is available on Nokia website already...	18:18
konttori	if you had restored setting from n800, perhaps you had set your own lock code on n800	18:18
suihkulokki	konttori: even emulated fat is risky.. the mounting OS does not expect FAT sectors to get modified	18:18
trevarthan	I didn't restore anything	18:18
timelyx	yeah, flashing won't change the lock (minor bugs noted)	18:18
trevarthan	ah	18:18
trevarthan	yup. I had one set. cool. thanks.	18:19
konttori	suihkulokki: then there's always samba ;)	18:19
timelyx	suihkulokki: you could probably cheat	18:19
timelyx	not sure how well it'd work	18:19
zoran	why in inner card formatted in fat?	18:19
timelyx	so it'll mount anywhere	18:19
timelyx	(win, mac, lin, sol, ...)	18:19
suihkulokki	konttori: amusingly that is what motorola linux phones do =)	18:19
timelyx	as mentioned above, it's usb mass storage	18:19
konttori	Or webdav / sftp and requirement to use pcsuite to access it ;)	18:19
* timelyx curses		18:20
timelyx	how dare you mention pcsuite?	18:20
trevarthan	lock code dialog is much easier to use in chinook. Looks like I'll actually get to lock my device now.	18:20
konttori	well, some nokia provided application	18:20
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* timelyx curses		18:20
Andy80	timelyx: is the inner card available (mounted) on your desktop when you plug in the usb cable?	18:20
konttori	pcsuite just came to my mind as an example	18:20
suihkulokki	something like MTP and fuse thing to mount it on linux would work great	18:20
timelyx	Andy80: i'm fairly certain it did the last time i tried	18:20
konttori	that could of course be used to transfer safely files	18:20
konttori	;)	18:20
Andy80	timelyx: thanks :)	18:20
timelyx	konttori: "be used" and "safely"?	18:21
suihkulokki	windows supports mtp too so it's almost as easy as mass storage	18:21
timelyx	...	18:21
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timelyx	what's mtp?	18:21
suihkulokki	media transfer protocol	18:21
trevarthan	konttori: timelyx: BTW, I got subversion installed. All I had to do was add the repo in /etc/apt/sources.lst or whatever and then I could install it from the appmngr	18:21
timelyx	Andy80: please don't take my word for that one	18:21
timelyx	suihkulokki: file a request?	18:21
trevarthan	kontori: BTW, I really like the new horizontal scrolling mechanism in UKMP. Very nice.	18:21
timelyx	that seems more than reasonable	18:22
trevarthan	I like the new theme a lot too.	18:22
timelyx	(not necessarily exclusive, but certainly available)	18:22
timelyx	trevarthan: plankton's better	18:22
* timelyx is still hungry		18:22
Andy80	timelyx: it's just to understant if the inner card is available ONLY for internal use (by system apps ecc...) or if, for example, I can transfer mp3, avi ecc... to it. that's all :)	18:22
trevarthan	timelyx: I'm talking about UKMP, not the OS.	18:22
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konttori	trevarthan: thanks	18:22
konttori	trevarthan: did you notice that it's now doing the reflection on the fly.	18:23
zoran	what stops date to traffic to inner card?	18:23
konttori	Instead of on load time.	18:23
zoran	*data	18:23
trevarthan	no. I haven't looked at the code. We're doing that in Kagu too though. We don't cache reflections anymore.	18:23
konttori	When I realized that, I started thingking that by a different kind of layout that could be used for some really nice effects.	18:24
konttori	so you calculate reflections for every frame as well?	18:24
trevarthan	yeah. typically we only have one image on screen at a time, so it's no big deal.	18:24
konttori	hey, are you using the media database now from the media framework?	18:25
konttori	the sqlite db	18:25
trevarthan	mmm... no. we're still using our own sqlite db.	18:25
trevarthan	what's the media framework?	18:25
konttori	ahh,.. there is a pre-made db in ~/.data or something.	18:26
trevarthan	The chances that it has everything we need are pretty slim I bet.	18:26
konttori	well, the devices own media player has the harvester process that harvests id3 information for all meadia files automatically.	18:26
konttori	true	18:26
trevarthan	We're always adding indexes and stuff.	18:26
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trevarthan	I'll check it out though.	18:27
konttori	funnily enough, that db doesn't have any indexes (might explain a little why the medai playr is a bit slow)	18:27
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trevarthan	arg. where the hell did I get that sqlite3 command from now? rrrrr...	18:27
trevarthan	I hate having to hunt down all my programs after a firmware change.	18:28
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erich141	anyone remember the name of an applet which sit in the taskbar, shows CPU activity and let you kill CPU hoggers?	18:30
pupnik	osso-statusbar-cpu? cpu-load-applet?	18:30
trevarthan	someone needs to port those to chinook	18:31
alterego	Someone .	18:31
konttori	what sqlite3 command do you mean?	18:31
kaltsi	we need to hire that Someone	18:31
kulve	maybe Someone should first sell device able to run Chinook. Or provide Chinook for the old devices..	18:32
konttori	load applet can be found from garage.	18:32
alterego	I'd do it if you paid me :)	18:32
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konttori	it works on chinook	18:32
konttori	and it's done by Jakub Pavelek and he's already hired by Nokia	18:32
alterego	Hahah	18:32
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konttori	https://garage.maemo.org/projects/load-applet/	18:33
suihkulokki	is maemo-mapper available for chinook?	18:33
konttori	https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/2065/load-applet_0.8.0-1_armel.deb	18:33
konttori	yeah, it is	18:33
trevarthan	konttori: there's an sqlite3 binary floating around somewhere for sqlite3 cli access on the device	18:33
konttori	ahh... I don't know. I'm just porting pysqlitegui for the device.	18:34
konttori	should be an even nicer way to test stuff.	18:34
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konttori	it already works, just needs hildonization and stuff.	18:34
trevarthan	ah. missing wget. crap	18:35
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alterego	WOO!	18:40
alterego	Ruby applets d00d!	18:40
sys	:D	18:40
alterego	It's taken a week but they work ^_^	18:40
alterego	Well, probably about 30 hours.	18:41
alterego	Actually, more like 10.	18:41
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* alterego is quite lazy.		18:41
* alterego makes implementation more "solid" ..		18:42
pupnik	damn pingus theme song... get out of my brain!	18:42
suihkulokki	pupnik: watch this to get rid of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDh_tFIHn4	18:44
konttori	ahh... pysqlitegui is quite slow when using it on the device.	18:47
konttori	probably the glade + gtk combination is slowing it down	18:47
trevarthan	konttori: is that the same as this? https://garage.maemo.org/projects/sqlite3sg/	18:48
konttori	nope.	18:49
konttori	is that a good one?	18:49
konttori	I haven't tested that.	18:49
konttori	Have to test it before wasting time on something that has been done already	18:50
konttori	thanks for the tip	18:50
trevarthan	never used it. I like the CLI, personally.	18:50
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penguinbait	I am wanting to take a poll in here, I think Maemo Mapper is the best GPS software for linux period!, I am trying to find another program for Linux but can not find anything even close to maemo mapper, I used to use gpsdrive,but its crap compared to MM. I want to con Gnuite into creating another version for laptops. Any other progs I am not thinking of	19:01
alterego	maemo mapper is pretty cool.	19:02
penguinbait	It really is	19:03
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elb	it really depends on what you want	19:05
elb	xastir has some features to recommend it, though it's quite arcane and somewhat primitive	19:05
elb	but it does understand shapefiles	19:05
konttori	by the way, the pymapper (the python copy ) is pretty good as well. Not nearly as good as maemo mapper, but pretty goon nevertheless	19:06
konttori	might be a good startingpoint for a multiplatform project	19:06
konttori	gnuite has done really good job with maemo mapper in any case	19:07
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penguinbait	I want a good program to run under KDE, and maemo mapper works OK, but its not designed for that type of window manager	19:10
penguinbait	Absolutely, that why I think Gnuite should port a laptop aimed version, it would be a huge success	19:11
kaltsi	how about google earth	19:12
_Monkey	google earth is a closed-source, winelib-based program, right? So I'd guess no.	19:12
elb	shut up, _Monkey	19:12
_Monkey	elb: what?	19:12
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elb	kaltsi: Google Earth really solves a different problem	19:12
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elb	and it doesn't run offline	19:13
kaltsi	good point	19:13
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czr	evenink	19:17
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alterego	Aloha czr	19:19
czr	hey alterego. how is it goin?	19:19
* czr keeps the window open just in case		19:19
alterego	Not bad. I've made quite a bit of progress on the plugin front ;)	19:19
czr	great, did you find out what the problem was?	19:19
alterego	It loads and executes ruby scripts fine now	19:19
czr	or there were several? :-)	19:19
alterego	I rewrote things and it started to work.	19:19
czr	ah, the old "rewrite everything until it works"-trick? :-)	19:20
alterego	Yes, this version is a lot nicer. Gives me cool error messages.	19:20
* czr pats alterego on the back		19:20
czr	I have a massive headache	19:20
alterego	Unforunately I'm having another problem now. Suprise :)	19:21
czr	heh. time for another rewrite? :-)	19:21
alterego	Neah	19:21
alterego	Not the whole thing anyway ^_^	19:21
alterego	I'm getting this wonderful error: 'can't convert false to string'	19:22
czr	I think I'm going to try to follow my step by step on ARM side	19:22
alterego	It's coming from ruby	19:22
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czr	heh. sounds promising :-)	19:22
czr	maybe a NULL pointer?	19:22
elb	that sounds like a ruby problem	19:22
elb	false.to_s should return "false"	19:22
alterego	It is a ruby problem :P	19:22
alterego	My problem is, where is this problem occuring.	19:22
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czr	ah, don't you just wish you'd have arbitrary backtracing capability	19:23
czr	i.e., see an error message, and then just backtrack from there until you see what the problem is. post-mortem	19:23
mariorz	hi, where are the doc for installing software on 770?	19:23
mariorz	docs	19:23
c0ffee	czr, the undodb (replacing gdb) does exactly that	19:23
czr	c0ffee, hmm. it requires a core to work with?	19:24
c0ffee	well, it's like gdb	19:24
c0ffee	actually it has the same ui, so you can use it with ddd and others	19:24
czr	ok. so either a core or pre-emptive breakpoints and thingies	19:24
czr	link?	19:24
c0ffee	unhttp://undo-software.com/	19:25
czr	I'm not a great fan of gdb though, but still	19:25
czr	hah	19:25
c0ffee	without the leading un actually :)	19:25
czr	it does fit though :-)	19:25
c0ffee	it's closed source stuff thou	19:25
czr	so it seems	19:25
c0ffee	however, for opensource and/or research stuff, you get a free license	19:25
czr	"Horrible bugs such as race conditions and memory corruption that previously took weeks to find can now be found in minutes."	19:26
elb	gdb is very powerful	19:26
czr	I wonder how they manage to do that..	19:26
c0ffee	well	19:26
czr	most race conditions I run into are bad design mistakes/assumptions.	19:26
c0ffee	i have a program for example that manipulates a few gigabytes of memory	19:26
elb	there are many tools for embedded systems which allow rollback and rewind	19:26
c0ffee	and now after days of processing it suddendly dies	19:26
alterego	Gutted :P	19:26
c0ffee	finding a minimal test case that i can actually forward debug takes weeks	19:26
czr	counds fun c0ffee. undb helped that?	19:27
czr	sounds even	19:27
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c0ffee	if i can just step back a few steps and see what actually did cause the bug, it's pretty easy	19:27
czr	the bug caused termination?	19:27
c0ffee	a segfault	19:27
_Monkey	a segfault is, like, from trying to get listings	19:27
konttori	by the way, google earth runs offline. (someone was commenting that earlier)	19:27
c0ffee	and the backtrace didn't point to the cause of the bug	19:27
czr	right	19:27
c0ffee	it's like function a corrupts the data	19:27
c0ffee	but terminates	19:28
c0ffee	and function b dies	19:28
czr	actually I remember seeing something similar for some DOS debugger, ages ago	19:28
c0ffee	anyway, food &	19:28
czr	maybe it's something stack-related	19:28
czr	stack-corrupting bugs are always fun	19:28
czr	anyhow, looks interesting. thanks for the link c0ffee	19:29
kaltsi	how about chronicle.. http://code.google.com/p/chronicle-recorder/	19:30
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czr	hmm. something that I'd implement. sounds heavy duty though, thanks for that link too :-)	19:31
czr	valgrind is a memory/cpu hog really when dealing with complex stuff	19:31
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czr	also callgrind is somewhat wanting	19:31
czr	(the cache model is ok, but the CPU/instruction model is way off, and it doesn't have TLB modelling at all)	19:32
czr	plus it makes the program run at 1% of real speed, but I could live with that :-)	19:32
kaltsi	this undodb also requires you to run the program in it	19:33
czr	valgrind does as well.	19:34
kaltsi	hence the 'also' :)	19:34
czr	ah. I thought it was 'also' as in suprising :-)	19:34
* czr blames his headache		19:34
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alterego	Oh ..	19:35
alterego	I think I know what the problem is.	19:35
alterego	That's interesting.	19:35
alterego	I think the problem is .. There _is_ no error.	19:37
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czr	ah. reminds me of the clasical "Error 0: No error" dialog in old win32 netscape.	19:37
alterego	Hah	19:37
czr	it was really funny	19:37
czr	hmm. bleh. I have to apply the application manager fix on the armel side as well	19:38
K`zan	Morning all!	19:39
konttori	ahh... seems like the pysqlitegui and the sqlite3sg are both done using plain gtk and are unusably slow on the device.	19:40
elb	czr: yeah, something I use likes to say "Fatal Error: Success"	19:40
czr	ooh. AM fails in a horrible death like way on the ARMEL	19:40
elb	but I forget what	19:40
konttori	translates to: either the command line tool or I have to write a new tool for it.	19:41
elb	it's checking errno somewhere inappropriate	19:41
czr	elb, sounds about right. probably the same team wrote that as did the netscape ;-)	19:41
konttori	crap.	19:41
kaltsi	czr do you -need- to run them in armel.. probably won't work	19:41
alterego	Hah	19:41
czr	kaltsi, it doesn't	19:41
elb	czr: the problem is, errno and strerror only work for certain functions -- and many programmers check them for other functions ;-)	19:41
shackan	valgrind does NOT run on arm	19:41
alterego	scratchbox just segfaulted and dumped me out :/	19:41
czr	qemu: Unsupported syscall: 264	19:41
kaltsi	czr yep that's to be expected.. there be dragons	19:42
czr	kaltsi, just wanted to test whether my package building thingy works on ARMEL.	19:42
alterego	No, I can get around all those now ;)	19:42
czr	kaltsi, yup. it's not critical, I'll test on the devices next	19:42
czr	elb, they do? silly of them :-)	19:42
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czr	although the whole errno business is a bit silly IMHO. not that I'm saying that it should be changed. too late now, but still.	19:43
czr	I really like the way that kernel returns the errors in pointers	19:43
elb	well, that's a different situation	19:43
czr	although that obviously works for functions that'd return a pointer, but still.	19:43
* czr nods		19:43
czr	bleh. I always forget there's no VKB on the n810	19:44
* czr keeps clicking on the address bar in vain		19:44
alterego	I thought there was a VKB	19:44
alterego	That's ghey >:(	19:44
konttori	you can get vkb if you want	19:44
czr	konttori, how?	19:44
konttori	setting is in control panel	19:44
konttori	input methods	19:45
czr	ah. didn't know that	19:45
konttori	probably disabled by default for n810 configuration	19:45
czr	at least was on this device	19:45
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czr	hmm. is anyone running os2007 on a n800 here?	19:47
alterego	Cool .. Now it's segfaulting O_O	19:49
sp3000	czr: what kind of odd luddites would those be	19:49
* sp3000 is :)		19:49
czr	sp3000, care to test whether my package will install on it?	19:49
sp3000	the second-to-latest one even, for extra credit	19:49
czr	ooh	19:49
czr	http://koltsoff.com/pub/n800/hhwx_0.1-1_armel.deb	19:50
czr	built using 4.0 really	19:50
czr	so I'm just curious what will happen with it on 2007	19:50
* sp3000 is rocking it hardcore oldskool		19:50
czr	770 with pre 1.0 images? :-)	19:50
czr	with the ugly orange button version too?	19:50
sp3000	heh	19:50
czr	that'd be really oldskool :-)	19:50
czr	sp3000, how about it?	19:52
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sp3000	appmgr complains about dependencies	19:54
czr	ok. good to know	19:54
czr	probably realted to the great hildonlib renaming break that happened	19:54
czr	it's looking for libhildon-1 and libhildon-fm-2	19:55
sp3000	(atk,c,dbus,gconf,glib,gtk,hildon,osso,pango)	19:55
czr	hmm. the other libs should be ok methinks	19:55
czr	it's only those two that were renamed between 3.2 -> 4.0 afair	19:55
czr	pretty ironic that only the names have been changed, otherwise the program would run quite nicely	19:56
czr	sp3000, thanks for testing.	19:56
sp3000	np	19:56
czr	was too lazy to reflash 2007 back onto the n800	19:56
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sp3000	czr: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/244944	19:59
czr	oh. ok then :-) not just the two libs :-)	19:59
czr	thanks a lot	19:59
czr	ah yes. the libc break as well.	19:59
czr	I guess one would have to fix the libdeps manually in order to support older versions	20:00
czr	but that's too painful	20:00
mariorz	whats the dif between bora and mistral on the repositorys	20:00
mariorz	?	20:00
mariorz	are they really for dif distros?	20:01
mariorz	i seem to be able to install from both	20:01
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* czr goes shopping for cigarettes and coffee		20:07
czr	long night ahead :-)	20:07
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alterego	:)	20:10
pupnik	"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro..." - Hunter S. Thompson	20:12
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alterego	Well, now it's all working okay. I need to create a nice interface for setting up plugins from the ruby side.	20:13
mariorz	exit	20:15
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mariorz	how do i type alt or ctrl from x terminal on the 770?	20:27
pupnik	i think that's a menu option - if not you need to get the newest xterm	20:31
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* czr is now loaded and dangerful		20:34
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czr	hmm. af-sb-init.sh stop doesn't work on ARMEL side	20:35
czr	killall ftw	20:36
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alterego	killall -s 15 !	20:37
czr	eh, isn't TERM default anyway?	20:37
alterego	Don't know	20:38
czr	it is	20:38
czr	so all your -s 15 is pretty.. useless :-)	20:38
alterego	I just have a vague memory of it not killing things properly with no signal specified.	20:38
czr	neh. -s 9 if you run against that	20:38
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* alterego orders some Chinese		20:39
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czr	wei shenma? rugou ni yao zhongren, ni bu hui coding in maemo.	20:41
alterego	Hmm .. I've ran into another problem now.	20:41
alterego	I need to link against a ruby extension (.so) that's in the ruby sitearchdir ..	20:42
alterego	This is something I don't know how to do at all :/	20:43
czr	-Lpath	20:45
czr	tells ld which directory to also use when linking	20:46
czr	although at runtime it will become somewhat hairy. can't you use dlopen or similar?	20:46
alterego	Yeah, do you think that'll work when these extensions are dlopen'd by ruby?	20:46
alterego	Well .. My extensions link fine ..	20:46
alterego	I wonder how.	20:46
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alterego	It's interesting that ldd doesn't show them as being linked ..	20:47
* czr shrugs		20:48
czr	I know 0 about ruby	20:48
* alterego goes insane.		20:49
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* czr points to the window		20:49
* alterego jumps out of the window		20:49
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czr	problemsSolved+=1	20:49
czr	any other ruby lovas? :-)	20:50
* czr itches to increment the variable some more		20:50
K`zan	Silly question probably, but why is it that 2007 apps won't work in 2008?	20:50
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czr	K`zan, different libc version	20:50
alterego	different everything version :)	20:50
czr	K`zan, also some libs underwent name changes	20:50
K`zan	Ah, OK, that makes sense :-(	20:50
czr	diff gtk version too methinks	20:51
alterego	Yeah, 2.10 as opposed to 2.6	20:51
K`zan	2008 is up one app from yesterday :).	20:51
K`zan	But I think judging that from the maemo repositories is misleading, MM is out for 2008 now.	20:51
K`zan	Will be glad when xchat gets here :-).	20:52
alterego	You could always compile it yourself.	20:52
alterego	I'm sure you can get the project source from them.	20:52
K`zan	Then again MM (maemo mapper) may not be, I notice it refuses to load maps when you are zoomed in reasonably tight.	20:52
zuh	K`zan: The amount of ported apps will surely grow faster when the devices hit the streets...	20:53
K`zan	alterego: I started putting together the dev stuff, just got deb4 installed in a vm, got to do the scratchbox and SDK which were a bit confusing - just haven't gotten back to it.	20:53
K`zan	zuh: Most likely :-).	20:53
alterego	scratchbox is easy.	20:53
alterego	Just apt-get the packages you require.	20:54
K`zan	Easy for you to say :).	20:54
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alterego	Setting up the SDK's is pretty easy.	20:54
alterego	You've just reminded me. I was going to write a couple of patches for the maemo-sdk installers that allows you to specify the SDK names.	20:54
K`zan	It has been YEARS since I did any serious PC level software development - been putzing around in microcontrollers for a while.	20:54
alterego	Woo, Chinese dinner is here!	20:55
alterego	That was quick ..	20:55
K`zan	So many years, I'd be embarrased to say how many :-).	20:55
czr	K`zan, 30?	20:55
K`zan	Almost...	20:55
K`zan	Closer to 20 actually <blush>	20:56
K`zan	Like riding a bicycle I hope :).	20:56
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K`zan	Gonna run the battery down in the n800 today...	20:59
alterego	Can't be that many years then ;)	20:59
K`zan	Would be nice if one could select power level per connection. Here at home 10mw would do since the AP is less than 5' away...	21:00
K`zan	Feels like it :)	21:00
alterego	That's just being an adult.	21:00
alterego	Doesn't make you old ;)	21:00
K`zan	No, doesn't. Just makes you feel old LOL!	21:01
K`zan	Can't do the multi-day all night and dayers anymore.	21:01
alterego	I'm gonna have to swim for a week to burn off all this food :/	21:01
K`zan	:-)	21:01
K`zan	With oriental, you'll be hungry in an hour.	21:02
K`zan	We have a really GREAT oriental place here, today seems like a good day to patronize them.	21:02
alterego	I'm always hungry. That's not the point :P	21:02
K`zan	LOL, understand that.	21:02
alterego	Where do you live?	21:03
K`zan	Good news here as of yesterday I guess is that bacon is no longer bad for you, now it is good for you.	21:03
K`zan	Seattle, home of the evil empire.	21:03
elb	oh?	21:03
czr	K`zan, which one? :-)	21:03
elb	bring on the bacon	21:03
alterego	And Kurt ;)	21:03
czr	there's so many evil empires to choose from nowadays	21:03
K`zan	Heh, here there are so many evil empires, starting with the local "government"...	21:04
K`zan	Right.	21:04
alterego	That's good I started the day of with a bacon sandwich	21:04
K`zan	Wonder when it will be bad for you again?	21:04
elb	man I want a BLT	21:04
elb	K`zan: how did it become good?	21:04
elb	last news I read was that preserved meats are carcinogenic	21:04
elb	which includes bacon	21:04
alterego	Heh	21:04
K`zan	Would be nice, but only nitro ripened and picked 6 months ago orangish stuff in the stores.	21:05
K`zan	elb: Secret: you ain't gonna get out of this alive :-).	21:05
elb	heh I start my day most mornings with eggs over easy, sausage, and griddle-fried toast	21:05
elb	so that's salmonella, cholesterol, fat, oil, and blah blah blah	21:06
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elb	but man is it good	21:06
K`zan	elb, Damnifiknow, too much news too much bad research (commerical / political "science"). Coffee was the last one bad / good /bad before this one that I recall.	21:06
alterego	Heh	21:06
elb	coffee is all good ;-)	21:06
alterego	Coffee is good.	21:06
elb	anti-oxidants out the wazoo	21:06
K`zan	Ah, yes, latest is good :).	21:06
alterego	Stops liver disease	21:06
K`zan	Glad as I drink about 3 pots a day :).	21:06
K`zan	Home roasted and ground :).	21:06
elb	caffeine has been suspect over the years, but latest is that it's OK, too	21:07
K`zan	Not commercial swill.	21:07
elb	(in moderation, of course)	21:07
elb	yeah, I roast my own	21:07
K`zan	Makes people productive, can't be having that.	21:07
elb	the only way to go :-)	21:07
alterego	Hah	21:07
alterego	I don't notice much of an effect with coffee.	21:07
K`zan	Agree completely, even the gormet stuff is rancid by the time you get to it.	21:07
elb	well, it lowers blood pressure and heart rate	21:07
alterego	Unless I've had _too_ much.	21:07
elb	it used to be believed that it was hard on the cardiovascular system	21:07
K`zan	alterego: You just need good coffee :).	21:07
alterego	I have good coffee :P	21:08
elb	but it turns out that, for regular consumers and in moderation, it's not	21:08
alterego	I don't ever make it at home.	21:08
alterego	Well, I do at weekends in the morning.	21:08
elb	it does trigger arrhythmia in some people who are sensitive	21:08
K`zan	I can no longer handle the swill you get out, even starbucks is crap.	21:08
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elb	starbucks is worse than most of the other swill	21:08
alterego	Normally I go to this nice Italian cafe or polish	21:08
elb	I prefer generic gas station coffee over starbucks	21:08
elb	Flying J dominates all over Starbucks ;-)	21:09
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K`zan	Regular restraunt swill is disgusting, at least you can generally choke starbucks stuff down :)	21:09
alterego	Starbucks is too fruity for my tastes	21:09
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elb	man, I disagree -- Starbucks "house blend" is as bad as the worst restaurant brew	21:09
K`zan	The store, employees or the coffee itself ;-)?	21:09
alterego	You missed the vital ingredients.	21:10
elb	some of their other beans, and their espressos, are a notch up the scale from restaurant junk	21:10
alterego	(The customers :P	21:10
K`zan	I quit doing it out, no idea if there even is anything acceptable out there anymore).	21:10
K`zan	LOL, too true.	21:10
K`zan	Pretentious lot generally.	21:10
mariorz	lates are gay	21:10
czr	so are typos	21:10
elb	lattes have no sexual orientation, in fact	21:10
* czr hides & runs		21:10
K`zan	LOL, errand bbiab.	21:10
elb	and they're a perfectly respectable drink, they just aren't coffee	21:10
czr	elb, you have empirical evidence?	21:10
pupnik	dunn brothers is best coffee - if you're ever in Minneapolis, it is a must-visit	21:11
elb	czr: yeah, there aren't even any living cells to have orientation	21:11
alterego	Latte is just milk :P	21:11
elb	alterego: Café Latte, if you will ;-)	21:11
czr	elb, I'm sure the milk part introduces at least some bacterias :-)	21:11
alterego	I quite like Cafe Latte's	21:11
elb	pupnik: home roast almost certainly dominates it ;-)	21:11
alterego	It's like a coffee milkshake.	21:11
elb	although I have to say, the Ethiopian Biloya I had today was a bit bitter	21:12
czr	although bacterias don't have sexual orientation. hmm, you might be onto something elb	21:12
pupnik	elb: they roast twice a day with expensive roasters in each shop	21:12
elb	pupnik: I hope they don't serve what they roasted that day	21:12
pupnik	afaik they do, don't remember. smells real good though.	21:12
elb	they shouldn't, if they do	21:12
czr	I wonder what's the difference in hitting the ENTER from pressing it.	21:13
alterego	I just think anyone that goes into Starbucks must be a bit stupid.	21:13
czr	can software really tell?	21:13
elb	newly roasted coffee is saturated with CO2, and makes a bitter brew because of it	21:13
elb	it should be allowed to outgas for 8-12 hours before grinding and brewing	21:13
mariorz	duds plz noob here how do i do alt on xterm on the 770, im on irssi cant switch channels :p	21:13
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alterego	dud configur de toolbar	21:14
mariorz	and ctrl etc	21:14
mariorz	will do thanks	21:14
mariorz	any linkage?	21:14
czr	0x4c4f4c	21:15
* alterego chuckles.		21:15
alterego	mariorz, hang on I'll get it for you	21:15
mariorz	coo	21:15
mariorz	l	21:15
alterego	mariorz, http://inz.fi/blog/2007/01/24/more-osso-xterm-shortcuts/	21:16
czr	damn the headache doesn't let up	21:16
* czr goes looking for a sledge hammer		21:16
mariorz	so dev for this s wth the gtk libs?	21:16
mariorz	thanks man	21:16
alterego	If you mean that Gtk is the toolkit in Maemo .. Yes	21:17
mariorz	err that yeah	21:17
mariorz	cool	21:18
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* alterego eats a spring roll.		21:18
timelyx	my audrey booted!	21:19
czr	audrey=?	21:20
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timelyx	google?	21:20
_Monkey	google is, like, my friend and you should make it your friend too	21:20
alterego	I knew this French girl called Audrey ..	21:20
czr	bleh.	21:20
* ol_schoola can't stand it anymore and rings up kung bao pork and chilis		21:20
alterego	I don't think I've been more attracted to a girl in my life :D	21:20
alterego	ol_schoola, I'm sorry. I've finished now. Just a couple of battered pork balls and some prawn crackers :)	21:21
timelyx	google loads too!	21:21
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timelyx	err	21:22
ol_schoola	alterego: no, i ordered up, for real	21:22
alterego	:)	21:22
alterego	That was nice.	21:22
ol_schoola	damn you vile woman!	21:22
timelyx	Etsim(~AEur)si sivu on virheelinen.	21:22
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timelyx	what's that mean?	21:23
alterego	If I ever have a "last meal" it'll probably be a mixture of chilli, chinese, indian and a bacon sandwich.	21:23
alterego	Oh, some steak and chips too.	21:23
alterego	And for desert .. Lemon marangue pie.	21:23
visy	timelyx: "the page you are looking for has errors"	21:23
ol_schoola	and a ding-dong	21:23
alterego	With strawberries and cream.	21:23
visy	in finnish and with some very strage encoding	21:23
timelyx	thanks	21:23
visy	+n	21:23
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* alterego starts to feel hungry again.		21:24
* alterego wants strawberries ..		21:24
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pupnik	anybody know a python app for maemo that is launchable from menu? i have a python/pygtk program i'd ike to start from menu	21:27
Andy80	pupnik: maybe this can help you: http://pymaemo.garage.maemo.org/documentation/pymaemo_tutorial/python_maemo_howto.html#link24	21:28
pupnik	thank ye kindly	21:28
Andy80	you're wellcome	21:29
pupnik	i wonder how many tablet users already have python/pygtk installed	21:29
alterego	You just need a desktop file.	21:29
alterego	Pretty simple.	21:29
* alterego hopes more have Ruby .. :P		21:29
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bedboi	hi all	21:32
czr	hmm. is there a simple way to remove all files except the ones whose globs will match?	21:33
czr	(in shell)	21:33
timelyx	mv them somewhere else first	21:34
alterego	find can negate	21:34
czr	neh. looking for something that can be done with simple step	21:34
timelyx	uniq can be abused	21:34
czr	without external tools :-)	21:34
timelyx	there's also $filter	21:34
alterego	find is external?	21:34
czr	alterego, external to shell, yes	21:34
timelyx	outside busybox	21:35
alterego	find is in busybox	21:35
alterego	It's on the devices.	21:35
timelyx	but that'd require reading the man for filter :)	21:35
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alterego	:)	21:35
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czr	and starting the shell with -X originally	21:36
alterego	I did a google search on my name last week. I was #2 (my maemo profile)	21:37
alterego	Did the same search now. Nothing :)	21:37
czr	nm, I'll do without the negation	21:37
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alterego	I'm gonna resort to dlopen ..	21:38
timelyx	hrm	21:38
alterego	I can't be bothered to waste more time on this :(	21:38
timelyx	wait	21:38
timelyx	gnome vfs is sending out buggy http requests?	21:38
timelyx	anyone here vaguely familiar w/ gnome-vfs?	21:38
timelyx	sp3000?	21:38
sp3000	not really :)	21:39
alterego	I'd rather not. gnome-vfmess	21:39
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Andy80	alterego: is it possible that karma is not updated in these days?	21:58
alterego	Yes	21:58
alterego	Mine hasn't moved all weekend.	21:59
Andy80	ah ok	21:59
timelyx	Andy80: afa-we-k maemo isn't updating planet	21:59
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alterego	And Maemo site has been quite broken this weekend.	21:59
timelyx	presumably other things are also stuck	21:59
alterego	Yeah, I think karma is also generated once a day.	21:59
alterego	So it wont update until very late tonight.	21:59
Andy80	they're all busy at Nokia.... loading the DHL Cargo with our N810's :D	22:00
* Andy80 joking :P		22:00
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pupnik	What would be the best dosbox launcher? 1) integrated into xmaeme launcher 2) a standalone gtk-based launcher or 3) a python based launcher?	22:01
pupnik	It's going to be easy to start up games and add them to a list.	22:02
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Andy80	I was thinking about a usefull plugin for minimo browser....	22:08
Andy80	is it compatible with firefox plugins?	22:09
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alterego	Not exactly.	22:09
alterego	In fact, not really.	22:09
Andy80	a usefull plugin to port into it would be the AdBlockPlus	22:09
alterego	Can't say I've had a problem with adverts on my tablet.	22:10
Andy80	they slow down the connection speed	22:10
Andy80	and make the rendering of the page slower	22:10
alterego	Oh, you mean like google adds and stuff?	22:11
alterego	Filters them out of the page?	22:11
Andy80	I mean all kind of ads	22:11
alterego	Yeah. That would be very cool.	22:11
Andy80	yes	22:11
alterego	Do it :P	22:11
Andy80	AdBlockPlus for Firefox does this thing	22:11
Andy80	try it :)	22:11
Andy80	you'll notice the difference even on a normal PC	22:11
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pupnik	also "noscript" plugin would really help	22:15
pupnik	scripts off by default, then you can enable them only for pages you want	22:15
Andy80	a popup blocker too would be usefull...	22:16
timelyx	pupnik: noscript should be coming	22:16
timelyx	not sure when, i need to bug mao	22:16
pupnik	cool!	22:16
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Andy80	timelyx: are you working at the maemo browser?	22:18
timelyx	yes	22:18
timelyx	although atm i'm playing w/ the audrey browser (voyager) instead	22:19
alterego	40,000 hacks later.	22:22
alterego	Well .. No errors ^_^	22:23
alterego	It's wyerkin'!	22:23
alterego	I've got my first ruby desktop plugin on the desktop.	22:24
alterego	I could cry :D	22:24
alterego	Now to break it.	22:24
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* alterego means make it better.		22:25
konttori	Is there any easy way to set the font size to bare minimum for all widgets in gtk window (python)	22:27
alterego	Probably need to play around with a gtkrc theme file for your app.	22:28
alterego	Hmmm ..	22:30
alterego	Well .. It works but with a slight issue. Plugins share the same Ruby context. Which means they share resources :/	22:31
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* czr sent off the first version of the 4.0 updated mat.		22:35
* czr yays a bit		22:35
alterego	:)	22:35
alterego	Looks like we're both in a good place.	22:36
alterego	My plugin's are working and displaying :)	22:36
alterego	Not very interesting plugins but they work ^_^	22:36
czr	I'm not in a good place	22:36
czr	not in a good place at all :-)	22:36
czr	I wonder if anyone will notice the 600 KiB drop in the size of the tarball compared to the 3.2 version	22:37
* czr smirks		22:37
alterego	Heh.	22:38
alterego	Not all deprecated API's surely ;)	22:38
czr	my lips are sealed	22:38
maddler	evening all...	22:41
konttori	alterego: thanks.	22:41
maddler	Andy80: ciao! :)	22:42
alterego	konttori, no prob, good luck ;)	22:42
konttori	alterego: I was just hoping I could have avoided it	22:42
alterego	Yeah,	22:42
alterego	You can do it programmatically but I don't know the attributes sorry :/	22:42
Andy80	maddler: we :)	22:42
* alterego wonders how to do transparency.		22:43
konttori	for what? (transparency)?	22:45
czr	anyhow, time for food and consolation beer	22:45
czr	later alterego and all	22:45
alterego	czr, have a good evening :)	22:46
* czr goes to drown his sorrows in alcohol :-)		22:46
alterego	konttori, I've managed to write home plugins in Ruby. I want to make them have transparency effects like the ones that come with OS2008	22:47
konttori	How about just putting alpha channel to the pixbuf?	22:47
* alterego wonders if they're cheating ..		22:47
alterego	No, I think Nokia cheat.	22:47
konttori	I actually don't know the proper way to do it, but that's the way I would have designed the plugin framework.	22:48
alterego	They find out the position of the plugin and capture what should be there. Then make it look like it's transparent.	22:48
konttori	those damn cheaters!	22:48
xan-afk	alterego, no, the desktop has a local compositor, it's true transparency	22:48
konttori	actually, as you can put widgets on top of each other, I think they are not cheating as you described	22:49
alterego	xan-afk, do you know how to utilize it?	22:49
xan-afk	you can control it via theming or having ARGB visuas in your windows	22:49
xan-afk	visuals	22:49
alterego	xan-afk, thanks a lot :)	22:49
alterego	I'm gonna have some good ruby-maemo related blogging material for tomorrow :)	22:49
xan-afk	I think jobi was doing a tutorial about that, not sure if he released it	22:49
alterego	jobi, pfft. Useless bugger :P	22:50
alterego	Kudos for the 2008 theme though ..	22:50
alterego	Time for some bath surfing.	22:50
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K`zan	sad to say, but watching embedded video is the next thing to useless, 3 frames / words per minute :-(	23:10
K`zan	Flash stuff...	23:10
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K`zan	1	23:13
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K`zan	2	23:18
K`zan	5 minutes to make about a 1 minute video wholly useless, perhaps it works better linked through a cell phone.	23:19
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alterego	Interesting. maemo 4.0 SDK is not listed at stage.maemo.org	23:46
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konttori	hey, for the install file, should it be repo_deb_3 or repo_deb_4?	23:49
konttori	for chinook	23:49
alterego	Probably 4	23:49
alterego	As chinook is maemo 4	23:49
konttori	ok. I just didn't find any example install files	23:50
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konttori	ah damn. maemo downloads page isn't working on the click to install links ;)	23:53
Igg-man	Is there a place to find a good sources.list file?	23:54
Igg-man	It looks like the one on the website is missing a few things, like someone pulled out the URLs	23:55
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alterego	Igg-man, for the SDK?	23:56
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* alterego wonders what a /good/ sources.list file is.		23:56
alterego	Just put the repos you need in it.	23:57
Igg-man	just the repos for the device	23:57
Igg-man	I think I'm missing something, lots of packages don't install	23:57
alterego	The devic edoesn't have a sources.list file.	23:58
Igg-man	oh	23:58
Igg-man	hmm	23:58
Igg-man	what's the /etc/apt/sources.list file do?	23:58
kaltsi	alterego what do you mean?	23:59
alterego	Nothing, you should set repositoriesi n hte applicaiton mangaer.	23:59
Igg-man	okay	23:59
Igg-man	Is it safe to switch everything to chinook?	23:59
alterego	O_O	23:59
kaltsi	alterego: the app manager modifies the sources.list.. it's just a frontend to apt-get	23:59

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