IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2007-08-27

* konttori released a bug fix version of uktube. youtube videos can again be downloaded and watched with it.00:13
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dougbdoes anyone recommend a brand of SD cards that will work with n800's?00:14
sp3000konttori: do you have any media with umlauts in titles that end up in cover searches00:18
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sp3000konttori: see I get rather than ;)00:19
sp3000which is amusing00:19
konttoriin ukmp I presume00:20
konttoriWell, blame it on my msn images search code.00:20
konttoriIt's kind of here we go and best of luck msn to have one chance of guessing what image user wants to see there.00:21
sp3000I get Vre rather than Väre in the ui as well00:22
konttoriYeah, scandic characters are probably omitted at the moment.00:22
sp3000then again istr id3v1 at least is useless for non-ascii data00:23
* sp3000 forgets what encoding it assumes if any00:23
sp3000ahh wikipedia to the rescue, ID3v1 also lacked support for internationalization. It is stated in the standard that all the strings must be encoded in ISO-8859-1. But in practice, users usually used local encodings00:25
konttoriyeah. It's a bummer.00:25
sp3000apparently v2 makes the stupid mistake of allowing encoding to be specified rather than settling on utf-800:26
sp3000so that's bound to be implemented wrong all over00:26
sp3000I've no real guarantee that my files are any flavor of sane either :)00:27
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JaffaCool: hon widget that allows full screen PyGame applications to use a virtual keyboard for text input. As I'm sure everyone knows, when you're running a full screen SDL application, you lose access to the Maemo virtual keyboard.00:29
timelyxor javamaniac00:29
timelyxor Jaffa00:29
timelyxwhere should speed contacts status bar applet live00:30
timelyxand how should it be named?00:30
timelyxDesktop or Communication?00:30
JaffaHmm. This is where tags come in handy ;-)00:30
timelyxand is it possible i put it somewhere already?00:30
konttorigreat stuff!00:30
JaffaInstinct is "Communication" is more specific than "Desktop" for that. Name.... I've honestly no idea :-/00:30
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sp3000heh, that's evil00:33
sp3000desktop has battery clock display usb statusbar items00:33
tsohmm, ukmp. just installed 1.62. but the app manager says 1.61...00:34
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erstaziJaffa: on services, you have vidconvert, for online video conversion, how much bandwidth did this cause?00:56
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timelyxsp3000: how do i get older elements from planet?01:00
sp3000dunno, it might not keep them01:01
timelyxlooks like my link didn't get prettified the way i expecte01:08
timelyxsilly me :)01:08
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erstazihi konttori01:20
erstazikonttori: trying ukmp (:01:20
erstazikonttori: appreciate your work (:01:20
erstazikonttori: do you use scratchbox to test your apps?01:20
konttorionly on the device01:21
erstazikonttori: you just test them on a nokia for say?01:21
erstazioh wow01:21
erstaziyou even package for them on the device?01:21
konttorinope. I use dpkg -b to do it01:22
konttoriI do that on osx.01:22
konttoriWell, it should be as simple to package on the device itself as well using the command01:22
erstazikonttori: how was iceland?01:23
konttorigreat. thanks! Absolutely stunning place.01:23
erstazikonttori: I hear this all the time, of course, this makes me jealous, I want to visit Iceland sometime ):01:24
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konttoriblue lagoon - thumbs up. Rykjavik - very nice small town feel city - thumbs up. Riding on icelandic horses - really cool.01:24
erstaziicelandic women?01:24
konttoriIt's really expensive in summer time and quite reasonable in the winter time.01:24
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konttoriI have a wife, so I am blind to such things01:24
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erstazikonttori: of course, same here (I am married as well)01:25
konttorianyway, it's also a nice place to stop for a weekend on the way between USA and europe. It's pretty much in the middle and they usually have pretty  nice deals for those stopping by.01:26
erstazikonttori: I will have to remember that for my next trip to Europe.01:26
erstazikonttori: btw, I love the paste link button, very thoughtful01:27
konttoriI went straight to blue lagoon from the airport. They have a bus ride that takes you there and after the bath, straight to your hotel. That is something that every visitor should definitely do.01:28
konttoriahh.. thanks01:28
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kupesoft_How to reboot my n800 when it's crashed?01:40
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konttoritake out the battery?01:44
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Exquisitus666hi to all02:01
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Exquisitus666i have a problem: i need to run my java app on Maemo .........02:02
Exquisitus666someone can send me it to me pls?02:02
Exquisitus666thanks a lot for any kind of help02:02
kupesoft_What does the button on the mic do?02:04
Exquisitus666Native library `gtkpeer' not found (as file `') in gnu.classpath.boot.library.path02:05
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konttorithe button sends a keyboard command02:32
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gomiamhi everyone.02:47
gomiamI'm wondering what is the GTalk application package name in Maemo gregale02:48
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gomiamwell, it looks like I'll have to reflash the tablet again. I can't find osso-applet-accounts or some other packages now03:07
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gomiam(or maybe there's too many packages again and I need to bump up the cache space)03:08
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ekim|ircHow can I ncrease the allowed cache in the browser03:38
ekim|ircI heard there was a way to bump it up03:38
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yllusYou can do so in /home/user/.opera/opera.ini03:44
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ekim|ircdoes MicroB use the same .ini ?03:50
yllusprobably not, not being Opera03:50
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ekim|ircWell...microB just takes over opera03:53
ekim|ircit changes the opera rendering engine to gecko03:53
ekim|ircwhat is a safe value to set it at ?03:53
moytleHey, can anyone help me find a IR Universal remote control program for S60 3rd??03:54
ekim|ircwhat does that have to do with maemo ?03:54
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moytleNot to sure, I have jsut been looking for this for the longest timwe03:55
ekim|ircwhats a S60 ?03:55
moytlesymbian 6003:56
moytlethe OS03:56
ekim|ircWhat devie ?03:56
moytle3rd generation03:56
_Monkeyi heard device was perfect03:56
moytleNokia n8003:56
ekim|ircDoes it have ir ?03:56
ekim|ircI didnt know nokia put ir in its phones03:56
moytleand there are Ir remotes for other version of Symiab03:56
ekim|ircI dont know03:56
ekim|ircI dont even own a cellphone03:56
ekim|ircI know...gasp03:56
moytlejsut cant find the 3rd genertation software adn the phone has been our for more than a year so it has to be out there03:57
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ekim|ircI dunno03:57
ekim|ircare the nokia 770 and n800 the only devices that run maemo ?03:58
ekim|irchow can I run the rss reader from the terminal03:59
yllushmm, let's see about that reader04:01
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setiteanyoen use bt keyboards04:08
setitethe stoway.. is it rechargable?04:08
setitestow away04:08
yllusMy Stowaway has replaceable batteries04:09
yllusTwo AAAs in it right now04:09
setitethat sucks04:09
yllusWell not really, I haven't replaced them in a year04:09
setitei see they get alot of usage but im a rechargeable kind of guy04:09
yllusYou could always buy rechargable AAAs04:09
setiteit just makes me feel better putting things on a charger04:09
setiteyea those will make the keyboard tre expensive04:10
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setitei hate that i cant find a decent retailer witht he board04:12
setiteis yours iGO04:12
setiteim so close to carrying a desktop sized one :)04:14
NeoStriderhello there04:14
setitebluetooth mouse work>04:14
setitehola nelson04:14
setitehola NeoStrider04:14
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ekim|irchas anyone been able to get a usb keyboard working04:18
ekim|ircthe 770 and n800 have a mini-usb port and that can easily be adapted04:18
ekim|irchas anyone got that working yet ?04:18
setitewell i know that they dont run in host mode by default.. i think with r&d mode they can be.. and that there is limited success using powered hubs04:19
setitelemem check though04:19
ekim|ircwhats r&d mode ?04:20
setitereasearch and development.. on the n80004:20
ekim|ircI only have a 77004:20
ekim|ircAm I out of luck ?04:20
setitecheck out that04:21
ekim|ircis there a titter app for the 77004:22
ekim|ircI know there is a jauku app...because jaiku loves nokia04:22
ekim|ircI dont get it04:24
ekim|ircwhy couldn't they just put a regular usb port on it04:24
setiteits a portable device thats why04:24
setitekeyboards need power04:24
ekim|ircGood point04:24
setiteand the nokia was never meant to hook up to devices that require desktop power...04:25
ekim|ircthe pepper pad has it04:25
setitei mean it suckst that it wont work04:25
setitebut it would eat the battery very fast04:25
ekim|ircits like 3 times the size of the nokia though04:25
setitepepper pad is not a nokia though04:25
ekim|irchardly pocketable :)04:25
ekim|ircstill pretty cool04:25
WhisperingVoicesDoes anyone know if there are any packages like kDissert/Semantik that would work on the N800?04:25
ekim|ircwhat does semantik do ?04:25
setitealso.. the pepper pad is hideous04:26
ekim|ircYeah...theres that too04:26
WhisperingVoicesit's a mindmap-style tool (
ekim|ircalso...the nokia runs debian04:26
ekim|ircthe best operating system EVAR04:26
ekim|ircand the PP runs fedora core04:26
ekim|ircI had a chance to talk to the developer04:26
setitei mean the onde thing i wish the nokia did was handle video just like 25% better04:26
ekim|ircthey are really cool people though :)04:27
setiteoh i thought pepper was a winmo device04:27
ekim|ircTotally into the whole open thing04:27
ekim|ircNo way04:27
ekim|ircwhat country do you live in setite ?04:27
ekim|ircBecause I was gonna ask if you have ever heard of Digital Life04:27
setiteim american.. and no04:28
ekim|ircits this cool tech conference in new york city04:28
ekim|ircits like ces excep open to the public04:28
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ekim|ircand about a quarter the size04:28
ekim|ircmaybe smaller04:28
setiteces is open to public :)04:28
setitejust have to lie a little04:28
ekim|ircdefine "public"04:28
setitemake up a fake company name and voila04:28
ekim|ircThat sounds really professional04:29
ekim|ircBS Corperation04:29
setitepepper pad is realyl not that impressive btw04:29
ekim|ircI have used one04:29
ekim|ircI know04:29
setitethe biggest pro to the n800... is the battery04:29
ekim|irchow long04:29
setiteits a jack of all trades type device... and ive never had battery trouble04:29
setitewell im never away from the charger more thatn 3-4 hours04:30
ekim|ircMe either04:30
ekim|ircI would like to pickup a spare battery though04:30
ekim|ircI dont think you can buty them from nokia anymore04:30
ekim|ircIm pretty sutre the EOL'd the 77004:30
setiteit seems between music streaming.. with bluetooth tethering.. fullscreen video and web browsing i would get 5 or so hours out of it04:31
setitei hella plan to buy a second battery just in case04:31
setitethough i know i will never need to pop it in04:31
setitebut when i get around to makeing this thing a fulltime mp3 player ill grab an extra battery04:31
WhisperingVoicesI guess that's a "no" to mindmap-type programs that work on the n800 then :/04:31
setitehaha no idea WhisperingVoices04:31
ekim|ircNot so sure04:32
ekim|ircthere might be one04:32
ekim|ircI think there actually is one04:32
WhisperingVoicesany idea what it's called or how I can track it down?04:36
ekim|irchold on04:39
ekim|ircIf your looking for a desktop one ... there is a great one calleed freemind04:40
ekim|ircBut thats not what your looking for :)04:40
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ekim|ircno luck04:40
BiopenguinHello all04:40
_Monkeywhat's up, WhisperingVoices04:41
WhisperingVoicesno, I use WINE and Brainstorm on my laptop and desktop04:41
WhisperingVoicesI just need some sort of mindmapper for the N800 :/04:41
BiopenguinI just got a 770 and am trying to get gmailfs working if anyone has had any luck04:41
WhisperingVoicesand I'm not sure if Semantik would work, it needs a lot of libraries04:41
Biopenguinanyone seen any links have not had any luck looking anything specific to the 770 up04:42
BiopenguinI already have ssh and maemofuse loaded but can't find any docs to go past that point04:47
NeoStriderWhisperingVoices:  some red WINE (cabernet savignon) always help ;-P04:47
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ysssHello all04:50
NeoStriderhello ysss04:51
WhisperingVoicesNeostrider - I didn't think WINE would run on the n80004:51
NeoStriderWhisperingVoices:  it is not a complete emulator, but just a compatibility layer over X Window04:52
NeoStriderso it needs a underlaying x8604:52
WhisperingVoiceswhich isn't present in the N80004:53, it is more likely that we see a WINECE , something that "emulates" WindowsCE ;-P04:55
WhisperingVoicesnot much use for my shortterm mindmapping needs however04:55
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NeoStriderthe devices are not meant for that04:56
WhisperingVoicesthe n800 is meant to be flexible. It's just there doesn't seem to be much software out there for that in general04:57
WhisperingVoicesI guess I can always hope KML works04:57
NeoStriderso ask someone to make one ;-)04:57
WhisperingVoicesWho here wants to make me a program and not charge money for it? :D04:57
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setiteanyone have luck with vnc05:17
setiteit keeps crashing on me05:17
setitei mean im on evdo.. i dotn expect ultra performance but it seems utterly unable to handle it05:17
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NeoStridercan you guys give me some opinion?05:31
NeoStriderplease, check out the pictures of my game on this post:
NeoStriderplease tell me if you liked it05:31
yssshrmph.. why does USB-mounting the SD cards is really a sketchy exercise.05:32
ysssNeoStrider: I'm not sure what to look for.. I notice the differences on the HUD elements.05:36
NeoStriderreflexes =-)05:37
ysssThe Reflex is an oldie but goodie (song)05:37
ysssOh, you're talking about reflection??05:37
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NeoStriderysss: yesss05:46
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ysssNeoStrider: it doesn't work for me.. I don't know where the reflective surface is supposed to be.05:49
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NeoStrider_ well..its something that the picture doesnt do much justice...but I will take note of your comment05:50
NeoStrider_the reflection there is more a subtle thing to make it look more natural05:51
yssswhere does it supposed to reflect from?05:54
GeneralAntillesAnybody happen to have considered a way to sync FBReader over multiple devices?05:57
GeneralAntillesI have an N800 and a 77005:57
GeneralAntillesOne resides in my pocket and the other in the bedroom05:57
GeneralAntillesI'd like to be able to keep FBReader synced on both devices05:58
GeneralAntillesI was thinking that I could put together a wrapper for FBReader that would rsync the prefs from my desktop05:58
GeneralAntillesthen have it send the prefs back on exit05:59
GeneralAntillesTwo problems, I don't have a clue how to create a wrapper (other than, perhaps, putting together a shell script, but then I can't launch from the menu) and I _really_ don't have a clue how to activate the rsync on exit05:59
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NeoStrider_ysss:  it reflects the floor ahead of you06:09
NeoStrider_got to go fellows06:10
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nelsonsetite: yes, I use a bluetooth keyboard.06:19
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timelyxoh well... is almost reorganized07:42
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latzkoIs that true for a home applet that gtk_widget_show_all () is automaticly called for the widget returned by initialize? I have some buttons I want to hide at start but I can't.08:13
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unique311early in the morning...09:19
unique311any mods or admins from ITT in here?09:20
milhouseYou mean is Reggie here? ;)09:29
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milhouseoh lord... has another thread gone pete tong on itt?09:32
milhousejust reading your "locked" thread...09:33
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unique311milhouse, yes09:37
unique311the man gets arrested for stealing wifi09:37
milhousei'd been ignoring that thread as it was old news... having to read it now - all 8 pages :)09:37
unique311i like the thread very much09:37
unique311but it seems like it got shut down, when barry was attacked.09:38
unique311what ever happen to just walking away.09:39
milhousedidn't we have this discussion before? or maybe it's another forum i'm thinking of09:39
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unique311can't wait to make senior member on ITT09:40
milhouselet me guess, you had two schools of thought and they each tried to convience the other they were right and it all got messy?09:40
unique311500 more post should do the trick09:40
unique311pretty much09:40
unique311but the senior members came out on top i think.09:41
unique311last posts09:41
milhousehmmm... not really sure this "senior member" thing carries much weight :)09:41
unique311not sure also, but i still gotta get the post count up, I'll let you know when i get the title.09:43
unique311might just ask for a thread to be shut down to test it out.09:43
unique311never know09:43
timelessgood morning vietnam09:44
milhousehello timeless... are you responsible for spamming my inbox with updated bugs? :)09:45
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timelessthe hope is to have a bugzilla which is actually usable09:50
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timelessi'm almost done, i think there are about 200 more bugs that might need new homes09:50
milhouselooks like you've had a busy weekend! yes, the changes do seem to be a definite improvement09:50
timelessit looks liek a number of those are waiting for me to build homes09:50
infobottimeless meant: it looks like a number of those are waiting for me to build homes09:50
* timeless grumbles09:52
timelessgecko's form fill behavior isn't ideal09:52
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milhousei'm guessing reggie closed that thread because it was degenerating into personal attacks... and anything interesting had already been said with half a dozen different analogies. probably would have been left open if it weren't for the personal abuse, which is unecessary but inevitable. :(10:07
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* timeless frowns10:12
unique311i'm over it.10:13
unique311well not really10:13
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unique311i liked the example situations that were being thrown out.10:17
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unique311but like i said in my post, when it comes down to it, you don't need a good lawyer,  a public defender can get you off that charge.10:19
milhousei'd rather not put it to the test :)10:19
unique311my N800 was purchase knowing that in NYC i can connect on any corner to connection that was open10:20
milhouseto be honest, anyone operating an open network out of sheer ignorance should be locked up.10:20
milhouseunless the network is being offered for public use I think it's a very grey area.10:21
milhouseand the owner of the open network might have a tough time explaining away all the illegal porn that has been downloaded over his connection...10:23
milhousenetwork owners should put "PUBLIC" or some other keyword in the SSID if it's available for public access... otherwise assume it's not. whatever happened to warchalking?10:25
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milhousetimeless - bug 532 can now be closed, i reckon10:30
_MonkeyBug 532 might be found at
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AD-N770good morning11:08
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mk8Hi to all11:16
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kulveAD-N770: you pinged me during the weekend?11:27
AD-N770kulve: hi11:34
_Monkeyprivet, AD-N77011:34
AD-N770what _Monkey ?11:35
_Monkey_Monkey is, like, an annoying bot11:35
AD-N770kulve:, what do you understand about vfp registers ?11:36
AD-N770kulve: at
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kulvenot much ;)11:38
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AD-N770I'm worried about "Registers s16-s31 (d8-d15, q4-q7) must be preserved across subroutine calls"11:43
AD-N770do you understand that I should stack/unstack that set of registers in my liboil functions ?11:44
kulvenope, I don't work that low level..11:51
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timelesshello world12:34
timelessto people using, if you see <?> characters in people's real names, please let me know12:35 is configured to use UTF8, and i've recoded all the people i could find who were using ISO-8859-112:35
* timeless finds a user hiding in @*.cat12:37
floriangood morning12:39
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* timeless sighs12:53
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erstazimorning everyone13:22
florianhello erstazi13:25
erstazihow are you, florian?13:28
florianerstazi: busy like always ;)13:28
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erstazihello konttori13:29
_Monkeysalut, konttori13:29
kulvekonttori: why doesn't ukmp debian package depend on the other packages it needs to start up?13:46
konttoriBecause I thought that the python installation contained all of them13:47
kulveI tried running it, but I couldn't guess all the needed dependencies13:47
konttoriPIL is a kind of special case13:47
konttoriI've been considering dropping it as PIL is only included in the most recent python version13:47
kulvethe first two I found and istalled, but I couldn't find this PIL thing, so I couldn't run it13:47
konttoriand people who have python 2.4 have too many steps to upgrade to taht13:47
konttoriwell, for PIL you need the latest python13:48
konttoriQuite many other people have had the same problem. I'll probably add some try catch loop for the next version to skip the dependency.13:49
kulveif ukmp depends on python2.5-runtime package, it really should say it in the debian package..13:50
erstazikulve: for when I looked, it said it depends on that13:53
konttoriI put the dependency there now. It was depending on python runtime or python 2.513:53
erstazior wait, it said python-runtime and not python2.5-runtime13:53
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kulvekonttori: hmm.. I installed python2.5-runtime and now it works. So I think it should depend directly on that? And I think most people have extras on repository list already, so there shouldn't be any problems (well, maybe, if the python needs to be upgraded or something..)13:55
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konttoripython depends on some other repo as well.13:55
konttorianyway, you are probably right. Next version will depend on only the 2.5 version13:56
erstaziI think if you apt-get install python2.5-runtime then it installs python2.5 as well13:56
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kulvekonttori: according to the url you gave me, the python-runtime needs only the extras repo (at least the .install doesn't include others). Hmm. or was it so that the app.mgr. doesn't know how to add multiple repositories.. Well, worksforme.13:57
konttorithere was that base repo. I didn't what repo that includes13:58
konttorideb gregale free non-free13:58
konttori deb bora free non-free13:58
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konttoriSo, it needs extras and that repository.maemo.org13:59
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konttoridon't know why all that stuff isn't just in the extras repo13:59
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erstazihello sameo14:00
kulvekonttori: can be. I have the base repo and the extras..14:06
kulveand yes, I noticed only now that the url had two .install files.. I just ignored the other button first..14:08
erstazikulve: do you have OS2006 or OS2007?14:08
konttoricould it be that the other one is needed for it 2006?14:13
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* timeless findds a cool bug14:50
timelesshello world14:51
timelessi'm taking a survey14:51
timelessif you were going to file a bug in about "Device lock", where would you expect it to be?14:51
* timeless pokes kulve and konttori14:52
melmothDesktop ?14:54
_MonkeyDesktop is a product14:54
melmoththere is no 'bas os' or something product14:54
melmothbasE os.14:54
kulvetimeless: in current bugzilla?14:54
timelesskulve: no, in ideal but based on current14:54
timelessmelmoth: we have Desktop, System management and System software or something14:54
kulvesry, I don't have time to start planning bugzilla component organisation14:54
timelessbut you still have to tell me which to choose14:54
timelessjust pick one of those three14:55
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kulvesys. sw14:55
melmothi would pick desktop14:55
melmothSystem software is suppose to be hildon specific14:55
timelessmelmoth: the description needs an update14:55
timelessit include the xserver14:56
timelessbut i think i'm going to pick Desktop14:56
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* timeless ponders14:59
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timelesswow, i found a second spam entry in bugs.maemo15:04
timelessok, if someone wants to see something which is presumably adult spam, there's one attachment that isn't hidden, you're welcome to search for it15:06
timelessthe plain text seems to be italian :)15:06
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c0ffeethat was easy to spot15:12
timelessyou found it?15:12
c0ffeethere are only ~200 bugs with an attachment15:12
c0ffeejust search for the word 'attachment'15:13
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konttori_timeless: I guess you decided it will fall into the system software category. What kind of bug is it (apart from jamming the system)?15:19
konttori_ahh... sorry, desktop.15:19
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konttori_I would choose system software (otoh, might depend on the root cause of the bug)15:20
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timelesskonttori: i've stuck a few bugs in already15:21
timelessyou can review them and we can move the component later if people think i made the wrong decission15:21
timelessamusingly, i can't check the internal system for reference15:21
timelessthere is no component for it :)15:21
timeless(there is for the localization, and the specification)15:22
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konttori_way to go!15:22
db48xtimeless: is there a tinderbox or buildbot setup for microb?15:23
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timelessdb48x: there's a tinderbox internally15:26
timelessactually, i think it's public15:26
timelesswe think that XULRunner min % is ours :)15:27
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timelessok, so it turns out we only have 2 hits by this guy15:29
timelesshe's also responsibl for the bug i stuck in my graveyard15:30
timelesss/l /le /15:30
infobottimeless meant: he's also responsible for the bug i stuck in my graveyard15:30
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timelessok. i've made that attachment as hard to reach as  i can i believe in the current bugzilla15:32
timelesson bmo, i'd set the private group feature and group it15:32
c0ffeeyou can mark it as confidential i think15:33
c0ffeelike a 0day sploit15:33
timelessthe bug is technically valid15:33
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timelessso it'd be rude of me to hide it15:33
timelessjust because a spammer attacked it15:33
c0ffeedid you just work on the 'make logo configureable'?15:33
c0ffeethat was marked won't fix anyway :-/15:33
timelessare you getting bugmail for it?15:33
c0ffeei've reported it15:34
timelessoh, heh, hi15:34
timelesswell, it is configurable15:34
timelessmy 770 has a vista boot logo15:34
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timelessand i used a deb to get that15:34
c0ffeenot in a point and click manner15:34
timelessbtw: i'm sorry spammer attacked your bug15:34
c0ffeenevermind :)15:34
c0ffeeprocmail's working15:34
timelessi've renamed him and disabled his account to clarify matters15:35
c0ffeei've made the rc.d script that displays the logo configurable so it reads the filename to display from /etc/default/somefileiforgot15:35
c0ffeeit's just missing a nice gui to edit that file15:35
timelessanyway, imo the place for the ui would be control panel15:36
timelessso that's i believe where i moved your bug15:36
timelessnokia 770 is being evacuated15:36
timelessbug 459, input method framework or virtual keyboard?15:37
c0ffeei should file some more bugs :)15:37
_MonkeyBug 459 might be found at
timelessc0ffee: wait until i kill a few things? :)15:37
* timeless needs to file a bug about device lock15:37
c0ffeeyou could make the 'device plays dead' bug as 'grave'15:37
timelessi renamed graveyard Misfiled or something like that15:38
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timelessi believe it's now public, so people can move e.g. the gaim bug to it15:38
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* timeless sighs bug 460 needs a home15:39
_MonkeyBug 460 might be found at
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* timeless grumbles15:40
timelessthere's an applications/core?15:40
* timeless will have to kill that too15:40
db48xso the only tinderbox you guys have is on
timelessi think there's an internal server too, do you have vpn keys?15:41
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timelessso which kind of question are youasking?15:42
db48xif you guys have a tinderbox that builds microb, then I can create one that runs tests15:42
db48xnamely pageload15:42
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db48xcrazy, I know15:43
timelesssorry, i cna't follow15:43
timelesshow does our having a tinderbox you can't see help you make a tinderbox w/ pageload tests?15:44
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* sp3000 grumbles at the subversion ui thing15:47
timelessfwiw, i'm not registered either15:47
timelessso i can't send back :). but good to hear, i don't think i had15:47
sp3000so if I have an $Id$ in a file, browsing that in the undecorated web interface shows the $Id$ rather than its expanded contents15:48
sp3000which is nice and useless15:48
db48xtimeless: heh15:48
db48xfreenode is such a pain15:48
timelessuse moznet15:48
db48xI looked in here because your idle time there is obscene :)15:49
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sp3000all of them? :)15:52
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* sp3000 reverts to sloppy manual versioning15:52
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timelesshrm, is glib distinct from glibc?16:03
melmothglib is the gtk main library16:04
melmothglibc is the c main library16:04
melmothor sort of :)16:04
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timelessbug 752: iconv or glibc?16:05
_MonkeyBug 752 might be found at
melmothno idea.16:07
mgedminiconv is part of glibc, I think16:13
mgedminwell, iconv is the name of the API, gconv is the name of the implementation of iconv that's a part of the gnu libc16:14
mgedminbug 752 should be assigned to libc, I think16:14
_MonkeyBug 752 might be found at
mgedmin_Monkey: yes, we know, you said that nine minutes ago16:15
_Monkeymgedmin: excuse me?16:15
mgedminsilly bot16:15
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dazgardi've dowloaded the nasa world map with teh links provided by gpsdrive17:37
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dazgardhow can i use them with maemo-mapper please ?17:38
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xorAxAxcan i somehow list/install the maemo packages via the package manager on my os 2006 device?17:52
kikkaCan i install google earth or somthing like google earth on n770?17:53
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Veggengoogle earth is a closed-source, winelib-based program, right? So I'd guess no.17:55
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dazgardgg eath on n770 ??17:58
dazgarddoes the device even have enough resources for that purposes ?18:00
dazgardhmmm, not sure18:00
xorAxAxhmm, my n770 has a dead-on-arival issues: the loudspeaker (and headphone jack) only generate noise when some app is run. is that a known problem?18:00
twobithackerI think it'd be difficult without more ram and a 3d accelerator18:00
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sbaturzioma a che caspio serve pango in Gnome?18:05
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timelessis there a maemo-launcher component?18:10
timelessxorAxAx: google: red pill18:11
xorAxAxtimeless: ok18:11
timelessoh, someone help me18:14
timelessnokia 770:hardware18:14
timelesswhere do i stick these things?18:14
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floHi ! I got an N800 and the email client that comes with it shows mails in my inbox that have long been deleted/moved (using imap) how can i change that ? Thanks!18:37
timelessso, anyone alive?18:41
* celesteh dies18:42
robtaylorflo: wait until Modest comes out18:43
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florobtaylor: Modest ?18:44
_Monkeyit has been said that Modest is an email client built on libtinymail18:44
floSo it's another mailclient ?18:45
floHmm but will it be as well integrated ?18:45
robtaylorflo: i'd expect so18:45
timelessok, nokia 770 is almost empty18:46
florobtaylor: Cool sounds good :)18:47
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xorAxAxwhen using the default program manager, can i somehow install all updates at once?19:04
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konttoriIs modest coming out in the next firmware?19:10
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konttoritimeless: Apparently I'm no the only one wanting page up / down keys for microb:
konttoriPlease add support for dpad up /down -> page up / down configuration19:17
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konttoriI actually switched back to opera for the same reason for now.19:18
konttoriI usually read planet like sites where I have long pages. It's nice to read such pages when you can just click one button to scroll to new content.19:18
flokonttori: full ack19:19
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_Monkeyprivet, tobmaster19:23
tobmasterdamn i forgot henris nick :)19:24
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saaibargh! my screen went nuts! lines and blury crap19:38
cosmosaaib: if reflashing doesn't help, it's the wsod hardware failure19:39
saaibis this something related to the X server setup?19:40
saaibI can see the shadows of the menus when I tap on the screen19:40
cosmono, it's broken hardware. i hope you still have warranty time left19:40
Juhazweird, wsod's still happen? one would assume the hardware failure had been triggered ages ago on devices as old as 77019:40
cosmoi had the first (reported) one19:41
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xorAxAxwarranty is usually handled via a dealer, right?19:46
pupnik_is there some award for most innovative and useful tablet app?19:48
pupnik_*new application*19:48
xorAxAxhow about a useful calendar? :)19:48
xorAxAxanything else wont get any points from me19:48
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sp3000I bet a lolcatstreamer would19:55
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xorAxAxpupnik_: do you know datebk?19:58
xorAxAxthe only really useful calendaring application - palm only unfortunately :-(19:59
pupnik_have you tried our palm emulator?19:59
pupnik_unique311 did some good work on that19:59
xorAxAxpupnik_: neat, will have a look.20:00
xorAxAxbut synchronization might be hard in such a case20:01
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pupnik_synch with what?20:01
pupnik_i think it should be possible to get networking going - just haven't looked into it yet20:02
pupnik_$27.95 btw20:03
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xorAxAxpupnik_: well, evolution with datebk e.g.20:05
pupnik_do you have n800?20:06
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xorAxAxpupnik_: n77020:07
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xorAxAxdoes the n800 have a calendar?20:07
pupnik_770 version needs work20:07
xorAxAxwell, i am not planning to use closed source for the calendar :)20:08
xorAxAxthats why i am thinking about spending some time on the issue myself20:09
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simon_hi ... is down?20:09
pupnik_hmm garage seems down20:09
simon_ok ;)20:09
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pupnik_  xorAxAx looks very well laid out20:12
xorAxAxyes, as i said - there is no better one :)20:13
xorAxAxfeature- and usability-wise20:13
xorAxAxand it even maps al features to the limited file format that the standard calendar defines20:13
xorAxAx--> full compatiblity20:14
xorAxAx(e.g. templates are saved to be at the day 1970-01-01 or something like that :))20:14
pupnik_boy the ITT gaming forum is just burning hot with activity (not)20:15
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timelyxkonttori: i suspect we're accepting patches20:29
timelyxexcept, i don't think the ui is open, so i don't really know how you'd do it20:29
timelyxin xul based apps proper, you'd use xbl bindings20:30
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cwong1If my app has been hildonized, does the "Panning" feature comes free by default or do I have to implement some code to get that?20:33
nomiscwong1: panning as in the browser? This is something you have to do yourself.20:34
cwong1nomis: Panning as in the browser.  Can you give me a pointer to what I need to do?20:35
timelyxcwong1: sorry20:35
timelyxpanning in opera was implemented by opera20:35
timelyxand you don't want to look at panning in the browser20:35
nomiscwong1: I actually have no idea, but I guess you need to track the events from the stylus (AKA Mouse) and redraw your window appropriately.20:36
nomisdoing this in a speedy manner might be the biggest problem there.20:36
cwong1Does the mozilla based browser created by nokia support panning?20:36
timelyxcwong1: yes20:37
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cwong1timelyx: So they have implemented that in their ui layer then.20:37
tkocwong1: you might want to look at evince, or our patch to gtkhtml for implementing panning20:38
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cwong1tko: can u give me the link to evince?20:38
xorAxAxhmm, how can i become root?20:38
xorAxAxsudo asks for a password20:38
timelyxcwong1: no, it's actually in the engine iirc, but you still don't want to look at the code20:38
tkocwong1: but essentially it would be simply storing the (root) coordinates on button press, then after crossing the drag threshold start updating the scroll adjustments with the distance from the button press position20:39
tkocwong1: -- forgot which file, sorry.. grep for should help20:40
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cwong1tko: ok,  thanks.20:40
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cwong1tko: thanks20:44
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kikka_Can i get Skype under n770?20:49
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sp3000oof, roaming data prices20:51
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cwong1tko: how does evince determine whether the user want to do panning or to do a normal select?20:55
tkocwong1: different button :)20:56
tkocwong1: or that's what I'd expect.. you'd have to read the code20:56
timelyxcwong1: this is why panning is a bad idea20:56
xorAxAxcan i easily use apt-get?20:56
cwong1tko: ok20:56
xorAxAxor would that break something?20:56
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timelyxxorAxAx: you can easily break something20:57
timelyxbut you can use it20:57
timelyxeasiest way to break everything is to change busybox20:57
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xorAxAxtimelyx: "change"?20:57
tkopanning and selection conflict on user interaction level which makes it hard to support both20:57
xorAxAxyou mean replace the binary?20:57
cwong1tko: Does Nokia's mozilla based browser support both?20:58
timelyxthe package20:58
_Monkeyi guess the package is missing libsvn somehow20:58
timelyxcwong1: yes20:58
tkoI suppose you could have a selection/panning mode, or something like start selection when dragged horizontally, panning on vertical, or other less conflicting interactions20:59
timelyxand oddly, in testing better than opera20:59
tkotap-drag does selection IIRC20:59
timelyx_Monkey: forget the package20:59
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot package20:59
* k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back.20:59
timelyx_Monkey: package is <reply>20:59
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.20:59
timelyxcwong1: note that between google maps, google reader, and google docs and spreadsheets20:59
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timelyxthe browser can't get the web right20:59
cwong1iphone handles panning pretty well.21:00
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* sp3000 would tend to prefer modes21:00
timelyxsp3000: i'm contemplating a way to get an onscreen overlay that lets you control a mouse cursor21:01
tkowe were also playing with the idea of doing panning when dragging quickly, and starting selection if you hold down the stylus/finger a little while before starting to drag, but it always gets down to awkward interactions21:03
sp3000try context menu on a bus :)21:04
sp3000that reminds me21:04
sp3000should file an rfe for long menu press to bring that up or something21:05
timelyxi tried that21:05
timelyxour ui designer vetos21:05
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timelyxi'm going to see about easter egging it21:06
timelyxthe ui designers really get on my nerves21:06
timelyxall they've done is design extremely complex ui interactions21:06
sp3000opening new windows on a bus? blasphemny!21:06
timelyxat the expense of web interaction21:06
timelyxno, long press of menu to get context menu21:06
infobotsp3000 meant: foo21:07
sp3000I suppose that works but it's kinda less familiar21:08
sp3000or, someone could shoot the bot :)21:08
timelyxsorry, i figured out how to kill _Monkey21:08
sp3000well, long press of menu to get context menu == opening new windows on a bus, roughly21:08
timelyxi haven't figured out how to kill infobot21:08
timelyxinfobot help21:08
pupnikyou can leave off the trailing / to avoid activating the bot21:08
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tkotimelyx: uh, vetoed with what argument?21:11
tkoseems sensible easter egg to me21:11
timelyxtko: non standard iirc21:11
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timelyxtko: i'm actually trying to overload it slightly heavier than that21:12
sp3000hahaha 18€/M21:12
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DaniloCesartko /whois21:12
timelyxspecifically, if you hold the menu key and tap21:12
tkobut we already do context menu on long press (of stylus) ..21:12
timelyxi want to trigger right click21:12
timelyxtko: no, we don't21:12
sp3000...standard? what standard :D21:12
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timelyxif you're on, long press is part of dragging the map21:12
timelyxbasically, the web is different21:12
timelyxand whichever YOU UI designers are who made this mess21:13
timelyxwell, they made a mess21:13
timelyxand i want to remove it all21:13
timelyxpanning and tap and hold are disasters for the web browser21:13
timelyxsince web apps can trap gestures21:13
timelyxand in fact, they expect to be able to trap right gestures too :)21:13
tkowell, web apps are evil :)21:13
timelyxui designers who don't seriously consider the web are worse21:14
timelyxand they're really ui not ue21:14
xorAxAxhmm, why does the n770 reboot in an OOM condition?21:15
timelyx99% of the system is life guarded21:15
timelyxwhich means if a life guarded app dies, the device restarts21:15
timelyxthe apps are written using glib21:15
timelyxwhich kills itself on oom21:15
xorAxAxwell, cant the OOM killer kick in first? :)21:15
xorAxAxi tried evince21:16
timelyxand kill what?21:16
timelyxmost of the apps are life guarded :)21:16
timelyxheck, on the 770 there was one app that wasn't properly lifeguarded21:16
xorAxAxit had 5 threads and 16 MB RSS21:16
timelyxso it'd get killed by the oom killer21:16
timelyxand then respawned :)21:16
timelyxit had resurrect, but not protect :)21:16
timelyxfwiw, there are 2 versions of evince21:16
timelyxi had the one that triggered oom reboots21:17
timelyxyou probably want the other one :)21:17
timelyxbelieve me, i wasn't happy to find that part out21:17
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timelyxbut, generally speaking, the platform is built on a really messed up foundation21:18
timelyxglibc => glib => gdk => gtk => hildon21:18
timelyxglib kills itself on oom21:18
derfThat's the way Linux works.21:18
timelyxand that's not a requirement21:19
timelyxyou don't need to use glib21:19
timelyxQt, wX21:19
timelyxnanox, wine21:19
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derfLinux actually allocates pages without testing if it really has pages to allocate.21:20
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xorAxAxin the repos that are configured, i am seeing two versions: 0.9.0-0indt1 and 0.8.1-0indt121:20
timelyxnot true21:20
derfThe latter isn't done until the first page fault.21:20
timelyxlinux behavior is configurable21:20
xorAxAxboth in gregale/free21:20
timelyxxorAxAx: i think you want the non indt one :)21:20
derfFirst I've heard of it. Where do I configure it?21:20
xorAxAxwhat does indt mean? :)21:20
timelyx /proc/sys/kernel/ something21:21
tkobut if you disable overcommit you'll die to OOM even sooner21:21
timelyxon this system? absolutely :)21:21
derfWell, the point was that that practice actually makes people write software that doesn't check for OOM.21:22
derfSince malloc can return success, and the thing will still blow up on the first page fault, making it pointless to do so.21:22
timelyxsorry /proc/vm21:22
timelyxerr /proc/sys/vm21:22
* timelyx sighs21:22
xorAxAxtimelyx: do you know where i get the other package?21:22
derf(checking for OOM makes code much more complex in a hurry)21:23
timelyxerr /proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory21:23
timelyxgppg;e fpr ot21:23
timelyxderf: depends on how you write your code21:23
tkoderf: and even if you could catch OOM, what would you do in a UI application?21:23
xorAxAxtimelyx: ?21:23
timelyxit doesn't in js, or java, or perl, or python, or good c++21:23
derftimelyx: It doesn't depend on how I write my code at all.21:23
timelyxxorAxAx: i can't multitask21:23
derfIt depends on how thousands of other people write their code.21:24
xorAxAxtimelyx: then you need a better scheduler21:24
derfAnd I'm saying having that be the default behavior encourages people to write code that ignores OOM.21:24
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timelyxderf: i'm saying i absolutely dislike glib21:26
timelyxbecause even if i do manage to write an app that tolerates oom21:26
timelyxi can't use it, because the system demands i use its broken libraries which kill my app when they hit oom21:26
timelyxnote: most platforms don't do this21:26
timelyxand in the rare cases where they do, they're bugs that the vendor actually *fixes*21:27
derfI'm not sure I agree with those last two statements.21:27
timelyxderf: i've found bugs in parts of osx where the system failed to handle oom21:27
timelyxnewer versions of the code are fixed21:27
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xorAxAxi think on windows, apps are simply stalled when they cant get memory21:29
infobotxorAxAx meant: i think on windows, apps are simply blocked when they cant get memory21:29
timelyxwindows will return oom to windows apps21:29
derfSo your anecdotal evidence of one part of one system (that I don't even know is comparable OS X the kernel? The windowing libraries?), proves what, exactly?21:29
timelyxbelieve me, i've triggered ooms on just about every platform imaginable21:29
infobotxorAxAx meant: &m21:30
xorAxAxno, i didnt :)21:30
xorAxAxstupid bot21:30
timelyx /ignore21:30
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timelyxanyway, wrt evince, i've clearly uninstalled it21:30
timelyxsince all it did was trigger reboots21:30
tkoso, in UI app, what do you do when detecting OOM?21:30
timelyxit wasn't a good thing to keep21:30
timelyxtko: trigger a gc21:30
timelyxdrop caches21:31
timelyxuse your reserve to warn the user and try to let the user save state21:31
tkothat is assuming you are using gc, caches and have the reserve21:32
timelyxif you care, you need a reserve, and gc/caches are well, optional of course21:33
timelyxbut in the case of big apps, you usually have at least one21:33
timelyxtko: all things considered, the Notes app is fairly good in this area21:35
timelyxit tends to save state so that when it dies (and it does, often), you can restart it and be happy21:35
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timelyxsimilarly, even firefox these days survives most crashes, because it's also saving most state21:35
tkohmm, but state saving is quite different from catching and handling OOM21:36
timelyxbut the point is to make the user happy21:36
[0J]hi there .. can anyone help me with bluetooth dun?21:36
tkotimelyx: btw, how's the cross reference coming?21:36
timelyxtko: well, garage is indexed, i need to go back to feeding it gnome21:37
timelyxunfortunately, that's preempted by reorg21:37
timelyxwhich is also almost done21:37
_Monkeyokay, timelyx.21:37
timelyx_Monkey: forget which21:37
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot which21:37
timelyx_Monkey: which is <reply>21:37
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.21:37
timelyxi might try tomorrow to setup a replacement sardine21:38
timelyxtko: can you help?21:39
timelyxthere are 5 bugs in Nokia 770 not in the multimedia component21:40
timelyxthey need new homes21:40
tkotimelyx: I'm booked pretty much for the whole day21:40
DaniloCesartko, Are you the pyvirtkey developer?21:40
tkoDaniloCesar: nah, I was the maemo gtk maintainer21:40
timelyxnah ~ no21:41
DaniloCesarahh,. ok21:41
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tkonah is no21:41
tkoI feel ignored :)21:42
lle2fix dvfs and feel the love21:42
keesjtko: "was" does not sound good21:42
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timelyxtko: suggest component moves and i'll listen21:42
timelyxi'm making a multimedia component, do i move image viewer, fm radio, camera to it? :)21:43
tkokeesj: well, I'm still working on gtk but xan has the responsibility :)21:43
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tkotimelyx: no comments, really.. reorg is your project anyway :)21:43
qgiltko: hey, hey21:44
tkowe're even trying to move away from bugzilla :-P21:44
timelyxtko: to bugs.gnome? :)21:44
tkotimelyx: yep21:44
timelyxyou planning on taking your bugs with you, or moving?21:44
timelyxs/moving/leaving them behind/21:44
infobottimelyx meant: you planning on taking your bugs with you, or leaving them behind?21:44
qgiltko: it will be funny to teach users to distinguis Hildon bugs from the IT OS and submit them (obviously) in bugzilla.gnome.org21:45
tko<jedimindtrick>what bugs?21:45
qgiltko: I meant RFE21:45
tkoqgil: indeed.. we were wondering about whether we'll end up having three bugzillas in the end21:45
lle2tko: just run the bugzilla on git and you're just fine21:46
tkoqgil: but then I figured DP team can process bugs in maemo and forward it to us in gnome :)21:46
lle2tko: you can then push and pull and merge the bugs as much as you like21:46
qgiltko: I'd suggest to keep a couple of garage projects with own tracker as well, and then when chosing a wiki do it with Trac so you can get also bug there  ;)21:46
* timelyx chuckles21:46
timelyxsome of us use bugzilla.mozilla.org21:46
[0J]anyone familiar with AT-commants?21:46
tkolle2: someone was actually thinking of some sort of bug tracker on top / to use with git21:47
tkoI guess no one is on dialup... :)21:47
timelyxyou're mean21:47
qgiltimelyx: in any case my +1 for your powered Multimedia product21:47
`0660why? can you get to the internet without a dialup?21:48
[0J]more connectivity .. never dpend on only one line ,_921:48
tkoqgil: I'm not sure we can find anyone who'd want to use the gforge tracker...21:48
tkowithout a significant raise at least21:48
timelyxqgil: ok, i'll start doing it now then21:48
qgiltko: well, I succeded getting one garage tracker deprecated - for the website component21:49
timelyxqgil: i'd like to kill track if possible :)21:49
lle2kill lotus notes while you're on the spree21:49
timelyxcan we just offer everyone bugzilla components on an upgraded bugs.maemo? :)21:49
timelyxlle2: oh, i'd love to21:50
[0J]+gcap: +fclass is what i get when my modem answers the first requests ... dont look likt the things most ppl get21:50
tkolle2: +66621:50
GeneralAntillesWhere is the repository file for apt?21:50
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timelyx /etc/apt/sources.list ?21:50
GeneralAntillesYes, thank you. :D21:50
GeneralAntillesCouldn't remember. >>21:50
tkoqgil: I haven't been paying attention lately (holidays and all) ... have you managed to improve the responsiveness to the bug reports related to closed-ish source components?21:52
timelyxqgil: i need to get you to check on this one hardware bug21:52
timelyxi want to know if nokia fixed the guy's hardware21:53
qgiltko: where to start21:53
tkosounds like a yes :)21:53
qgiltko: let's see that I'm happy because things are moving but this is a second round21:54
qgiltko: however, we are going to feel soon the effects of the first round - being this reorganization just the appetizer (hopefully)21:54
lle2how many rounds are there before the winner is declared?21:54
tkomy favorite one-digit number21:55
qgillle2: there are no winners in bug management. It's a sad activity. You should know that.  ;)21:55
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timelyxqgil: killing badly organized products is quite satisfiying21:55
timelyxas is decommissioning bad bug trackers21:55
tkothe only winners in bug management are the managers who somehow get to justify their positions for a paycheck21:55
timelyxpersonally, i think that winning is being able to show faster time to fix21:56
timelyxand you do that by showing people that filing good, concise, reproducable bugs is the way to get them fixed faster21:56
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qgiltimelyx: what hardware bug are you talking about?21:56
tkojust a random thought, one way to organize bugzilla would've been to look at the structure of the others menu :)21:57
timelyxqgil: i'll have to look, iirc there was a bug in Mis*:Nokia about a cracked usb port21:57
lle2people like to write crap bug reports, it's more satisfying when pissed off21:57
timelyxtko: yeah, we considered that21:58
timelyxthe big problem is that others changes version to version21:58
timelyxUI designers ++21:58
timelyxi'm not making bugzilla polymorphic21:58
tkoit depends whether you consider bugzilla as a tool for end users, or developers21:58
timelyxi am willing to make a custom form or html page that lets people find the right component for filing bugs21:58
lle2it should be like the spam filters21:59
qgil/qgil is relatively amazed about thie MOSH released by Nokia: there are tits all over and the most popular video is a Steve Jobs speech21:59
lle2content based, bayesian or whatever21:59
tkoin any case, I think the interface for end users should have very coarse grained categorization and the developers would put the bugs in right components21:59
timelyxtko: i'm fine w/ that, and i hope this is close enough to meeting that21:59
tkofor developers IMO the components should map to source packages22:00
timelyxi don't expect users to file bugs in System software22:00
qgiltko: I think end users will find what they are looking for since they probably are looking for apps, browser, multimedia or connectivity - the rest is just so obscure no matter how you organize it22:00
timelyxqgil: and desktop :(22:00
timelyxbut yeah22:00
qgildesktop = obscure22:00
lle2where would I file a bug in skype?22:00
timelyxlle2: Communication22:01
lle2which is probably in the dsp gateway22:01
qgillle2: no, Skype22:01
timelyxlle2: Communication: Skype22:01
lle2or multimedia framework22:01
lle2or even more probably a combination of all of the above22:01
qgiltimelyx: we are not having a Skype component22:01
timelyxqgil: we ship skype, no?22:01
timelyxwe have rhapsody components22:01
lle2we donät22:01
timelyxand we have an fm radio component22:02
lle2we ship a link to an installer22:02
timelyxand camera22:02
_Monkeyi think camera is so poor that the app thinks the "blurness" is movement22:02
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timelyx_Monkey forget camera22:02
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot camera22:02
timelyx_Monkey camera is <reply>22:02
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.22:02
timelyxsorry, watching smallville22:03
qgiltimelyx: you keep confusing maemo with IT OS & Nokia consumer applications :)22:04
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qgiltimelyx: we *must* have all the stuff for developers + all the open source components22:04
qgiltimelyx: then, appart from this I'm advocating to have whatever is developed by Nokia in the IT OS and Tableteer etc22:04
qgiltimelyx: all the rest is third party, only exceptions should get in22:05
timelyxqgil: well, um22:05
timelyxwho created these things22:05
timelyxand do you want them dead?22:05
qgiltimelyx: or said in a different way, I don't see why we should open bugzilla component without agreeing with a partner this opening and their participation in it22:05
timelyxinteresting way to put it22:06
qgiltimelyx: I don't know who created them - and I don't know who created many things that perhaps make sense but in practice don't work22:06
lle2debian accepts bugs for all of its packages, regardless of if the upstream gives a rats ass about them22:06
timelyxqgil: there's another bugzilla for those products22:06
timelyxi have access, and can refile them upstream22:07
qgillle2: you will notice more differences between Debian and maemo  :)22:07
timelyxit's actually not restricted, you can get an account22:07
lle2qgil: I'm having trouble seeing any similarities, to be honest22:07
qgillle2: it was you who started the comparison22:07
lle2qgil: yeah, but we're pretending that we're maintaining a "distro", no?22:08
qgillle2: no22:08
tkobtw, what was the reason for the extra hierarchy instead of having application==product as starting point?22:08
timelyxtoo many top level products is painful22:09
lle2qgil: the last time I talked with somebody we were, but I guess things change22:09
lle2qgil: not that it matters much22:09
timelyxyou have to add versions for each22:09
timelyxand then you have really useless component names22:09
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timelyxand if you do have a bug only slightly misfiled, it's moderately painful to move22:09
qgillle2: again, I'0m talking about *maemo* bugzilla and the discussion here is about IT OS software that is not open source, not copyrighted by Nokia and not intended to developers22:09
pupnikhappy funtime dsp news?22:10
lle2qgil: would it still be bad to collect all problems with it?22:10
lle2qgil: I mean, many of the perceived problems could be because of something else22:10
qgillle2: collect problems in components that receive no response? well, in my humble opinion we have delivered too mucn of this22:11
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timelyxlle2: there's one major hazard22:11
timelyxnot being responsive22:11
timelyxi don't want to open up bugzilla to too many things22:11
timelyxand be overwhelmed by things we can't handle22:11
qgillle2: I prefer to focus on the stuff we *must* do and can do, and when this is going like a charm the see if we want to aplify horizons22:11
timelyxand don't, and then seem like an evil unresponsive corporation22:11
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timelyxwe should work around a core22:11
timelyxbuild up people, both inside and outside22:12
timelyxthen we can slowly add other things22:12
lle2I'm going to the gym already22:12
tkoyeah, core is the root of all evil *g*22:12
lle2maybe you guys have a point22:12
qgilone more thng about skype22:13
lle2but skype screwing up the n800 within 15minutes of starting the call clearly means there's a major bug somewhere other than the skype sw itself22:13
qgilwhere do you file a bug or even report that something is not working here?22:14
lle2no idea, and I don't really care22:14
timelyxpersonally, i find it odd that we have afaik all the others but not skype22:14
qgilthey are not doing this for themselves as far as I see - why should we open something for them, then22:14
timelyxqgil: all things considered, we don't want too many bug trackers22:15
timelyxthe more bug trackers. the more complexity22:15
qgiltimelyx: I'm trying to tell you that Skype doesn't receive bugs report22:15
lle2to get the damn errors recorded so that hiroshi can use that as basis of starting to guess where the problem might be22:15
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qgilah cool so there we go:22:15
lle2because it probably is not at all skype related, even if that triggers it22:16
lle2but if people can't file it against that, where will they file it?22:16
erstazille2: what app do you use to use skype?22:17
lle2erstazi: skype?22:17
_Monkeyrumour has it skype is excited about the N800 too22:17
qgilkeeping my answer to tko:22:17
qgilfirst what is maemo + IT OSS22:17
qgilthen what is closed + copyrighted by Nokia22:17
qgilwhen this is in place, let's discuss about all the rest22:18
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xorAxAxhmm, did anyone port wesnoth?22:18
lle2qgil: I have a personal interest in this because I filed a bug about skype and had to put against some picture viewer or something like that22:18
lle2qgil: and it never got any reply from anybody22:18
lle2I think it's still there22:18
qgillle2: do you think Skype has the right to decide if they want a component in not?22:19
lle2qgil: they have no right22:19
derfxorAxAx: Yes.22:19
robtaylorqgil: they probably have a trademark on 'Skype'22:19
timelyxthey do22:20
derfIt runs exceeding slow and you _need_ a swap file or it will OOM all over the place, but it does work.22:20
lle2qgil: besides, knowing certain things, it would help "us" if we collected the damn bugs in that damn thing22:20
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xorAxAxderf: :-)22:20
qgillle2: ok, noted22:20
timelyxqgil: i agree w/ lle2 on that point22:21
qgillle2: still, people nowadays are mainly complaining about other stuff in our bugzilla, and it's about our responsiveness in our own components - this is where I'm focusing my (limited) energies now22:21
timelyxbut yes, responsiveness is more important in the short term22:21
lle2qgil: skype is as close to being our own as it gets without it being22:22
timelyxespecially given that i doubt skype turnaround will be very fast22:22
lle2qgil: same goes for flash22:22
timelyxlle2: we have a flash component :)22:22
qgillle2: you download Skype, Flash is in the device22:22
timelyxqgil: that doesn't explain camera/rhapsody/fm-radio22:23
qgillle2: anyway, I'm not saying you are not right22:23
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erstaziwait, who packaged Skype to work on OS2007?22:23
qgilI'm only saying that first things first - I'm not lookign for an impossible perfection, just a little progress on every step22:23
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qgilnow I couldn't care less about Skype bugs in, really22:24
timelyxerstazi: we probably can't say22:24
lle2qgil: I think the important thing is to have a component for the top 10 apps people actually use on the device22:24
qgiltimelyx: camera `fm radio are developed by Nokia22:24
qgilrhapsody - I can't care less either, and I don't know who created that component either22:24
timelyxqgil: how much do you know about skype?22:24
timelyx /msg22:24
qgiltimelyx: I know about our contractual relation22:25
erstazille2: where did you install skype from? can you check your applications manager and see who packaged it?22:25
lle2erstazi: I know full well who did it22:25
erstazille2: ok22:25
erstazille2: well, actually I am just curious (:22:26
lle2erstazi: :)22:26
* zeenix doesn't know anything22:26
erstaziand I suspected you downloaded it from
erstazithen followed the deb to
jufoso will be Modest available for N800 (betas before final?)22:28
timelyxjufo: it's doubtful we could say if we knew22:28
timelyxthose tend to be announced surprises22:28
qgiljufo: you can try Modest already if you are able to compile it  :)22:28
timelyxyeah, just get it from svn22:29
jufoif it's usable, please release beta ;-)22:29
erstazijufo: you can always compile it and then be able to use it (:22:29
jufoi guess it's not usable yeat22:29
qgilModest will probably follow a similar path then the Mozilla engine and the RTComm uopdate, yes22:30
qgilso let me conclude about the previous discussion22:31
qgilcurrently we are organbizing and cleaning components22:31
qgilthe orinciple is that every existing component should have direct maintainers behind22:31
qgilbeing the developer-related components and the OSS developed by Nokia the required compoennts22:32
qgilthe next path to grow is non-open software developed and signed by Nokia22:32
qgilif there is maintainer there will be component22:33
qgiland when all this is working relatively well it will be much easier to "conquer" the rest that makes sense to conquer22:33
qgiltrying to get this final step without the previous...22:33
qgila) is almost a warranty of defeat and22:33
qgilb) it has been tried in the past - and I'm not feeling like repeating known mistakes22:34
qgilpeople can come and say how bad this is - fair enough, they probably have a point22:34
qgilas far as there is progress, I'm happy though22:34
qgilufff, thanks  ;)22:34
lle2so will skype get its own component? :)22:35
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* lle2 has trouble processing the set of rules governing component creation22:36
timelyxlle2: sounds like a no. sorry, i've been convinced22:36
timelyxatm, the rules are basically, i can create unless qgil vetos22:36
timelyxand i was delivered mine22:36
lle2I'll file my next skype bug against the browser then22:36
timelyxthat's fine22:37
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timelyxi'll refile internally and move to the Misdirected:Nokia component22:37
timelyxi'm quite serious22:37
amranyone here ever used theme maker?22:37
lle2timelyx: ok22:37
timelyxmost likely your bug will be buried though as a condition of making qgil and powers that be happy22:38
jufoyeah i am eagerly waiting for Modest, because default email client is totally unusable piece of shit, can not even read imap box which contains tons of email22:38
timelyxjufo: gmail works nicely22:38
amri like the default email client22:38
lle2now that's a first22:38
amralthough i hardcore use it or anything22:39
Dasaevclaws is good enought22:39
qgillle2: Communications / Internet Call - or what were you doing when you got the Skype bug?22:39
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derfamr: Jufo is right, the default client is completely unusable for large IMAP mailboxes.22:40
lle2qgil: talking, but I can see how the gtalk/rtcomm guys are going to ignore my skype bug22:40
qgillle2: then it falls in the rtcom basket, and these guys will know better if it's a Skype problem or something related to our platform - and will act accordingly22:40
derfIt just eats up memory until it crashes.22:40
derfBefore displaying a single message.22:40
qgillle2: creating a Skype component is no warranty that the Skype developers will not ignore it either, as I'm trying to explain22:41
timelyxwe're not worrying about it being ignored22:41
qgiltimelyx: then Communications / Internet Call22:42
timelyxif there's a way to gateway bugs to another bug tracker and keep tabs on it22:42
qgiland the rtcom guyas are nice, I donp't believe they will ignore it22:42
amrim more annoyed that the tablet doesnt seem to allow me to ping it22:42
amror to ssh in22:42
lle2qgil: they compete with skype, no reason for them to want to process its bugs. but this is obviously not going anywhere and since skype doesn't really work on the tablet at the moment, it's not very likely that I'll be using it enough to file any more bugs about it either.22:45
amrhm, this is worrying as it seems to happen all the time22:46
qgillle2: sorry but I don0t buy your story22:46
lle2qgil: which story?22:46
qgillle2: they compete with skype, no reason for them to want to process its bugs22:47
qgillle2: first these guys are professional22:47
qgillle2: second, di you really want to help fixing Skype?22:48
qgillle2: if so, you have all the direct channels22:48
lle2qgil: I don't care about skype enough to waste this much time on it, but I still think it's in the top 3 applications people would like to use on the tablet, not giving them an obvious place to file their bugs is of course an option. bedtime for me. c ya22:56
qgillle2: maemo is not IT OS + Nokia partners apps - so simple it is22:56
qgiltime for bed here as well, at least we agree on something lle2  :)22:56
lle2nobody knows the difference22:56
erstazinight qgil and lle222:57
qgillle2: "open source development for Internet tablets"22:57
lle2qgil: mostly just "software for internet tablets"22:57
qgilif nobody knows, someone needs to explain in order to set the right expectations22:57
lle2qgil: you still need closed code to have even marginally useful tablet22:58
qgillle2: a differencde between you and me is that ultimately I'm responsible of that bugzilla, this is perhaps a reason for me to have a conservative approach and try to solve first things first and leave for later what is not a core objective22:58
qgilskype and the rest of commercial appñlications brought by Nokia partners are not a core objective of maemo22:59
qgilnothing else to add, really. good night all  :)22:59
lle2qgil: noted, I tend to approach it primarily from a nokia product perspective, not so much about the Free Software Platform. but good night to you as well :)23:00
qgilnokia product = i.e. tableteer  - zzzzzz   :)23:00
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c0ffeefunny thing23:01
_Monkeyfunny thing is that Kagu's UI was inspired by Canola and UKMP. I hadn't seen an iphone when I first designed it.23:01
c0ffeea person just responsible for talking to 'the community'23:01
c0ffeesmart move actually23:01
robtaylorc0ffee: i think canonical got there first ;)23:02
robtaylorc0ffee: the company behind ubuntu23:02
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ragnarGood day.23:06
ragnarHas anyone tried using synergy on the 770 or n800?23:07
timelyx_Monkey forget funny thing23:11
_Monkeytimelyx: I forgot funny thing23:11
timelyx_Monkey funny thing is <reply>23:11
_MonkeyOK, timelyx.23:11
amri cant get either kagu or ukmp working23:11
amrlooks like its back to canola23:12
timelyxc0ffee: you've been around a while23:12
timelyxi'm retiring the 770 product23:12
timelyxit had a combined component for audio/video player23:13
timelyxshould i move it as is to multimedia, or split it into audio ; video23:13
timelyxsince they were distinct applications23:13
timelyxthing is, they're both dead products23:13
c0ffeedoes audio/video exist as components?23:14
c0ffeei think it would be more intuitive to split it then23:14
timelyxthat's what i was leaning toward23:16
c0ffeeto a user, it looks like two distinct programs23:16
* timelyx nods23:16
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timelyxsp3000? don't suppose you remember how i wass supposed to spell the media backend23:27
timelyxMultimedia framework?23:27
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timelyxcan someone please give me an argument for keeping a bug from mistral hidden?23:32
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c0ffeedoes it preannounce new features?23:34
c0ffeeor contain security related information23:35
timelyxwell, if it does, they're long since released23:35
c0ffeewhy was it hidden in the first place?23:35
timelyxbecause testers file bugs about sdk's w/ sdk classifications before the sdks are released23:35
timelyxe.g. someone filed a bug against the browser using the 4.0 classification23:36
timelyxso i couldn't see the bug23:36
timelyxwhich is great, since i'm kinda the browser architect...23:36
c0ffeewell, then it wouldn't need to be hidden any longer, right?23:36
timelyxyou're not doing a good job arguing in favor of keeping it hidden23:36
tkoit's a matter of national security. end of discussion :-P23:37
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c0ffeetko \o/23:37
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timelyxok, simpler question, Multimedia:Multimedia framework, or Multimedia:Framework?23:37
tkoI'm from department of redundancy department, so what do I know?23:38
* erstazi thinks "wget -rkp" is purely amazing (:23:38
c0ffeeit will be listed as component/product, and not concatenated with :, right?23:38
c0ffeethe first then23:38
timelyxit's often listed adjacent23:38
c0ffeethen the latter23:39
timelyxcould someone test bug 394 w/ 4.2007?23:42
_MonkeyBug 394 might be found at
_Monkeysomebody said synergy was mouse and keyboard sharing between desktop and tablet
pupnikragnar ^^23:56
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pupnikneed to update that23:56
timelyxyou don't have a .install?23:56
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lle2haha, I managed to file the skype bug using a webform23:58
_Monkeysynergy is mouse and keyboard sharing between computer and tablet:   and for 770
lle2took a while since I ended a few times in a loop of repeating webpages23:59
timelyxlle2: leave a url w/ _Monkey23:59
* sp3000 imagines a fax machine mounted on a trashcan for some reason23:59
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tkothere's a bug reporting page?23:59

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