IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-08-01

MoRpHeUzChris Lord is the name of the guy =)00:00
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trevarthanlooks like a hot topic00:00
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MoRpHeUztrevarthan, disq:
disqi kinda remember that name00:01
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trevarthanI don't have an ogg player on my win32 desktop00:02
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disqi'll try vlc00:02
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trevarthanOK, the second link is edje, which is just pygame on crack, as far as I know.00:02
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trevarthanThe first link... not sure what that is. Cairo + GTK?00:03
trevarthanThird link I can't play....00:03
red-zackhey guys, i am searching for an irc client for my nokia 770. anyone can help me?00:03
trevarthanquestion for all links: how do you select an item on the list? Looks like it just scrolls. No selection control.00:03
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disqtrevarthan: tapping probably works00:05
trevarthanin the first video, he sort of tapped, and nothing happened.00:05
_Handful_the problem I see now is the perfect balance between 2 things00:05
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_Handful_we are experimenting with the inertial scrolling, but I fully agree with someone (dont remember) that is just not about copycating the iphone00:06
_Handful_but actually understanding the variables for our screen, and trying to reach the best balance.. for scrolling + stopping and selecting an item00:07
disqi don't care about kinetic scrolling anyway. get me a bare listview/treeview and i'm ok with it00:07
trevarthanI care about it. scroll bars suck on touch screens.00:07
trevarthanit's just the "right" way to do scrolling on a touch screen, IMO.00:07
_Handful_so a little bit of attention with the "threshold"  between a click and a small movement (if you scroll is very sensitive, like ours is now )00:07
disqoh, trev. we can't do a portrait mode with gtk00:07
trevarthanI came up with Kagu's scrolling before I even knew the iphone had it.00:08
_Handful_trevarthan: yes.. I fully agree with you :
trevarthanthen I saw it on TV and I was like "damn". They beat me to it.00:08
_Handful_trevarthan: we did it on the 770, but the screen sensitivity was a no go00:08
amrits been around a while iirc00:08
_Handful_our very very first prototype (january 2005) had it (actually a developer asked for it) but it was more a fitness exercise than a interaction with the ui ) =)00:09
amrwoah 200500:09
amri feel bad for not getting a 770 earlier00:09
_Handful_the problem was the screen.. but on the n800 is a lot better00:09
_Handful_ (so you can fell it on kagu player)  =)00:10
trevarthanWhen I first wrote Kagu's scrolling, I did it on my desktop first. Then tried it on the n800. I was amazed at the difference. I had to add a lot of "margin" into everything because the touch screen isn't as precise as a mouse click.00:10
erstazitrevarthan, will agree with you there00:10
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_Handful_now it must have proper snap to the edges (to avoid not selected items) the correct bounce, you must be able to stop, without selecting the item, and to select the item without moving just a little bit.00:11
erstazitrevarthan, so with the imaging being needed, it is for it to fit more smoothly into the GUI?00:11
_Handful_yes... the mouse to touchscreen conversion is a pretty different00:11
trevarthanerstazi: yeah, I used pygame because I wanted something that could handle fast scrolling.00:11
trevarthan_Handful_: does kagu work on the 770? Maybe the dev just didn't have his head on right.00:12
_Handful_I didn't test it : /00:12
_Handful_I tested only our scrolling experiment : /00:13
_Handful_but if you want, I can install it later00:13
trevarthan770's browser scrolls like the n800's right? tap and drag?00:13
disqtrevarthan: we'd still have to reimplement the widget because it has to be in python (or we'd need python modules/bindings) btw. will be long and boring00:13
_Handful_yes, but it stops when you stop moving ... so you don need to use for example a tap to stop the inertial because it doesn't exists...00:14
jbindertrevarthan: Yeah.00:14
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trevarthanshame. sounds like you missed an excellent opportunity.00:15
red-zackoh, found xchat-maemo ... sorry for worring00:15
trevarthanyou = we, btw00:15
disqred-zack: there's also pidgin somewhere00:16
red-zackdisq: yes, i found it too. thanx a lot guys00:16
disqmy 770 has crappy screen sensitivity so i can't test without the stylus00:17
trevarthandisq: I gotta play with that gtk widget.00:17
disqby crappy i mean the center area won't recognize unless you stab at it00:17
red-zacki do not often ask like a stupid idiot, but... this is the first day ive got it. today i bought it for 177 euro00:17
pupnikhi red-zack are you an old kanotix/sidux user?00:18
_Handful_disq: that's quite normal for the 770 : /00:18
red-zackpupnik: i am an sidux supporter, yes00:18
red-zacka bit ago, kanotix, yes, too00:18
pupnikwelcome to the tablet community!00:18
disqalso I only have "take me down.mp3" on the device :P00:18
red-zackpupnik: thanks a lot ;)00:18
red-zacki think this channel will become an "autojoin"00:19
disq_Handful_: they replace the faulty screens but there's no tablet service around here00:19
_Handful_unm there's none here also : /00:19
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pupnikred-zack: good price on that 770.  i usually see them for 180+ in .de00:20
disqi was bummed when the right side of the n800 screen started to feel insensitive. luckily the new firmware fixed it00:20
red-zackpupnik: was an ebay sold. but it new, with 24 monbth garuante00:21
red-zackdamn, my english is ** worse..00:21
disqhey, i'll be in leipzig for 4 days maybe i could try to find a tablet service. but 4 days probably isn't enough00:21
red-zackdisq: maybe @ nokia itself?00:22
trevarthannew firmware has done wonders for the n800 screen. I'm amazed.00:22
disqred-zack: of course, but the horror stories at ITT (, that is) are, well, dreadful00:23
red-zackjesus, i cannot connect to my wifi.00:23
red-zackwhatta hell.00:23
trevarthandisq: could we compile that moko gtk widget, provide it as a binary dep, then just use it from python?00:24
trevarthanI wonder how much CPU it uses...00:24
disqtrevarthan: yeah. it's a part of libmokoui, but i guess we could only get that widget and compile00:24
trevarthanI need to email those guys at moko and find out more.00:25
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disqcould investigate further in #openmoko too00:26
trevarthanLooks like MaemoMyth already has it. I might build that tonight and see what it can do.00:26
_Handful_I tested it, and has some nice things.. and actually felt pretty nice00:26
_Handful_what I like is the ability of holding the finger and it keeps scrolling00:26
_Handful_to avoid multiple "swipes"  I don't know how to call the finger movement in english : /00:27
||cwswipe works00:27
trevarthannot sure what you mean. _Handful_: install kagu and play with our crappy canola/ukmp hybrid widget. Tell me what you think.00:27
_Handful_thanks =)00:27
pupnikwho was asking about flickr uploading?  inz made something
celestehthat was me00:28
_Handful_trevarthan: eg: to reach a end of a long list (like here we test with 16k songs) you must swipe (or slide the finger across the screen several times... even with accellaration) what m, then I agree with disq : a scroll bar with accelleration excels ... but..00:28
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red-zackmh, can i get something like a terminal/emulator for my 770?00:29
celestehthanks for the link , pupnik00:29
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celestehred-zack: osso xterm00:29
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_Handful_if you can place the finger.. and instead of doing that " iphone movement"  you actually don't take your finger from the screen.. and goes toward the edge (bottom or top) and it keeps scrolling.. just like you do with the mouse.. when you have something beeing draggaded on a bigger canvas =)00:29
trevarthan_Handful_: I was thinking of A-Z shortcuts on the left of the scroll widget. click Z, scroll widget jumps to Z.00:29
red-zackcelesteh: xterm, wonderful00:29
red-zackneed one of them ^^00:29
_Handful_yes.. the apple way00:30
_Handful_I don't want to go that apple like :/ but it's a good solution00:30
_Handful_the problem is..00:30
_Handful_when you don't have a alphabetical list..00:30
celestehred-zack, i think it's in the garage repository?00:30
_Handful_what would you use? tokens? simbles?00:30
_Handful_simbols (sorry)00:30
trevarthanI don't know what you mean by "apple way". I don't own a single apple and I've never used one. It's just an idea.00:30
red-zackcelesteh: its my first day. soo. i have a look. thanks dear ;)00:30
_Handful_the iphone scrolling put this " alphabetica index on the left"00:30
_Handful_but of course it's a pretty good idea and you can use it..00:31
disqah, didn't know that00:31
trevarthanthat's probably because it's a good idea. :)00:31
red-zackcelesteh: does apt work for 770 too?00:31
_Handful_but only works for those alphabetical sorted list..00:31
_Handful_when you have a non alphabetical... bam!00:31
erstazired-zack, if you got the right repos00:31
disqmy ideas was to put bookmarks on the top (A-D, E-H, like contacts in n800 does) but left is better00:31
red-zackreally, really sweet.00:32
pupniki have installed (770, it2006se) pool/maemo2.2/free/o/osso-xterm/osso-xterm_0.13_armel.deb00:32
celestehred-zack, it's in maemo-hackers.org00:32
pupnikred-zack: get an updated sources list for easier package install00:32
trevarthan_Handful_: you could come up with some other way to modify the scrolling externally. Slide wheel for speed on the left? etc....00:32
red-zackpupnik: thanks.00:32
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trevarthanalright, I gotta drive home. bye disq! bye _Handful_. bye all!00:33
_Handful_yes... that's the challenges.. we are thinking on that.. not only that.. but something that could mimic the home - end keys...00:33
disqthere's always finger pressure. and home-end shortcuts like canola has (we can do that when we have the osd up-down arrows)00:33
_Handful_or other things..00:33
_Handful_let's see00:33
_Handful_bye bye00:33
disqcya trev00:33
_Handful_disq : yes.. but those shortcuts.. are kind of too hidden : /00:33
trevarthan"Good Evening" (UGT)00:33
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_Handful_heheh yes =)00:38
red-zackxchat working. thanks00:42
red-zackxterm next00:42
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amrman i want my 770 :(00:45
manasI am trying to get USB host mode running00:45
tabathgood evening00:46
manason the 800. I installed the kernel patches and flashed the 800 with the new kernel and the tag : enable-host-mode00:46
manasThen, if I load python, I get an error message - :00:47
red-zackpupnik: can you tell me about apt and sources, need it^^00:47
manas>>> import usb00:47
manasTraceback (most recent call last):00:47
manas  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>00:47
manasImportError: /usr/lib/ undefined symbol: usb_resetep00:47
manasCan anyone please help me00:47
pupnikred-zack: you are blocking messages00:47
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red-zackpupnik: mom00:48
red-zackpupnik: try again00:48
manashey guys00:49
manashow's it going00:49
manasi'm having a tough time here.. with this USB host working..00:49
manascan you help!00:49
celestehthe flickr tool mentioned about half an hour ago just works for screenshots00:50
celestehit's a future plugin thing for maemo blog00:50
celestehwhich, when i try to run, crashes as soon as i try to select which of my blogger blogs i mean, or if i click "offline"  alas00:51
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NeoStriderhello folks00:56
NeoStriderMonkey: anybody is Im here00:57
NeoStrider_Monkey: anybody is Im here00:57
_Monkeyi already had it that way, NeoStrider.00:57
NeoStrider_Monkey: anybody?00:58
_Monkeyanybody is Im here00:58
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celestehmanas, what are you trying to do?01:00
celestehthe n770/800 doesn't do usb hosting01:00
manascelesteh: I am trying to get the n800 on the usb host mode01:02
manaslike the stuff talked about in
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celestehmanas, normally, the n800 cannot act as a host01:09
NeoStrideronly 770 has this hardware, right?01:09
manasThere are some web pages that suggest that people have gotten the n800 to work as a host01:10
manasI am porting an application in which I was using the 770 as a usb host and the 80001:10
celestehit's darn annoying01:10
celestehhow am i supposed to plug in my joystick?01:10
manasThis web page seems to think that n800 host mode should be possible --
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pupnikscrolling images in opera 800x600 is real fast01:37
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pupnikgood work to the core developers01:37
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pupniknice, you can disable scrollbar and toolbar and do fullscreen browsing in opera01:48
pupnikNew Advertising campaign.  The Nokia Internet Tablet - Just for people with homes anymore!01:51
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timelyxpupnik: you can style scrollbars off in gecko01:53
timelyxit'd be fairly stupid01:53
timelyxbut you can do it01:53
timelyxand the toolbars are part of the browser chrome01:53
timelyxyou can disable them for whichever browser it hosts01:54
timelyxpupnik: lastly, opera's scrolling has absolutely nothing to do with anyone associated w/ maemo01:54
pupnikok :)01:54
timelyxit was done by opera inc. if you want to give them props, use irc.opera.com01:54
pupnikis there another irc channel for tablet users?01:55
timelyxactually, their speed is mostly in spite of all the stupid decisions of people associated w/ maemo :)01:55
pupnikwell kudos to the kdrive people too01:56
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pupnik__Monkey, kdrive is a small X Window System server implementation created by Keith Packard which was the basis for xomap used in the Nokia Tablets.
_MonkeyOK, pupnik_.02:09
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pupnik_Keith Packard was also one of the guys who got the ball rolling for transparency and OpenGL acceleration in X02:10
pupnik_one of my heroes02:11
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Jynxhey guys02:13
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Jynxim trying to follow the walkthought for setting up a dev environment for the 770 @
unique311so if i say kdrive monkey responds02:14
_Monkeyrumour has it kdrive is a small X Window System server implementation created by Keith Packard which was the basis for xomap used in the Nokia Tablets.
Jynxi have got as far as getting maemopad install, but I cant find a working link for the tar yet02:15
unique311train the monkey02:15
Jynxanyone know where it is?02:15
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* Jynx pokes _Monkey02:16
disqgah. i can't seem to debianize libmokoui202:17
pupnik_Jynx: in scratchbox type "apt-get source maemopad"02:17
Jynxfor some reason the apt sources wont resolve02:17
pupnik_bad monkey, no biscuit02:17
pupnik_Jynx: common problem, running ubuntu on the host?02:18
Jynxknoppmyth actually02:18
Jynx(debian basse)02:18
pupnik_search google for scratchbox+nsswitch02:18
pupnik_that might* be the problem02:18
pupnik_also check that you can wget from scratchbox02:19
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pupnik__Monkey: base is Bass! How low can you go?  Death row?  What-a-brotha know...02:20
_MonkeyOK, pupnik_.02:20
unique311pupnik_, i have 2 games to compile and submit...02:20
unique311will do so when im done with this theme02:20
pupnik_nice :)02:21
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Jynxboth nsswith.conf's contain hosts: files dns02:21
Jynxand i can wget from inside scratchbox02:22
Jynxdeb maemo ossw02:22
Jynxdeb-src maemo ossw02:22
Jynxthose sources correct?02:22
pupnik_hmm never saw those -- i don't really know if mine are right either, but i can get maemopad02:23
pupnik_deb gregale free non-free02:23
pupnik_deb-src gregale free non-free02:23
pupnik_deb gregale free non-free   also02:24
pupnik_can you apt-get update?02:24
Jynxno, even with your sources02:25
Jynxtemporary failure resolving repository.maemo.org02:25
Jynxis the error02:26
Jynxguessing something is out of what02:26
pupnik_i can get it02:26
pupnik_in scratchbox i had to change02:26
pupnik_#hosts:     db files nisplus nis dns02:26
pupnik_hosts:      files dns02:26
pupnik_so now i don't know what it could be02:27
Jynxin nsswitch?02:27
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Jynxok well thanks, ill tackle it again tomorrow02:27
Jynxmight see you then02:27
pupnikok cheers!02:27
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NeoStrider__Monkey: NeoStrider?02:35
_MonkeyNeoStrider is probably building you a checkers game as we speak :)02:35
NeoStrider_who wants to connect the tablet to a joystick?02:35
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NeoStrider__Monkey: angstron02:44
_Monkeyangstron is probably
NeoStrider_my connection is flaky, but working02:44
pupniki use the bt keyboard usually, NeoStrider_02:47
pupnikyou have a usb joystick driver working?02:48
NeoStrider_but I was very curious to know if it works02:48
NeoStrider_actually I never even activated the host mode02:48
NeoStrider_neither the R&D02:48
NeoStrider_I like to keep my 770 vanilla02:48
pupniksame here02:48
* pupnik NeoStrider_ my new picture
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pupniki hate how that pic is too dark on CRT, but too light on LCD02:50
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NeoStrider_laptop LCD here ;-)02:50
NeoStrider_we banished CRTs long ago in my house =-)02:50
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NeoStrider_cool pic, btw02:51
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Feral_KidI am having a reboot loop after I installed a weather app. I am able to boot of the flash, but not off my MMC. If I mount the MMC, what do I need to delete to remove the boot-time application from running?02:52
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Feral_KidDoes anyone know where the directory is that holds the conf file that boots at start time?03:05
pupnika vague answer is /etc03:06
Feral_Kidpupnik> That would be very vague! :)03:08
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pupnikthat's because a directory holding conf files does not boot at start time03:10
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Feral_Kidpupnik> Well, my problem is that an application is failing to boot, which cause my 770 to reboot and bring me back to the bootmenu...03:13
frobconf files don't boot03:14
frobapplications don't boot either03:14
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pupnikFeral_Kid: the startup scripts are (afaik) mostly in /etc/rc2.d03:15
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pupnikFeral_Kid: so you are using a boot loader with menu?  It is possible to save output of the boot process if it is the kernel that is causing problems -- search ITT forums for 'dmesg' and boot03:18
Feral_Kidpupnik> It is not the kernel, it is the weather application that start at boot... I meant to remove that app, and ended up rebooting before removing... Now I am have an issue with booting of the MMC, although flash is good to go, because I did not add that app...03:22
Feral_Kidpupnik> I had this problem before, and have lost the note on what I had to get rid of... Basically, there was a file that I had to edit to remove the application... It is that same file that what files to start (for instance rss reader, webshortcut, clock, etc)03:24
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pupniki don't know how the tablets do it - in debian apps and daemons are started in the rc?.d directories03:25
pupnikwhere ? = runlevel03:25
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erstazimaybe freenode can setup a maemo cloak for people03:26
NeoStriderits easy!03:27
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Feral_Kidpupnik> Yeah, I remember that is was some hildon directory... But I can find it... Oh well, I will just search slowly... Of the top of you head where would I find the information on where I have stored wep keys...03:27
pupniki put them in a text file03:28
_Monkeywifi is both demanding and heating03:30
Feral_Kidpupnik> No, I am talking about when you first connect to a new ap, and the app allows to you to a connection a name, and it stores that name and wep... I need to find that so I can copy it over to my flash partition...03:30
pupnikno idea.  you could install findutils, connect to a new ap, then search for files changed in the past 5 minutes03:31
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NeoStriderisnt this some source of vulnerability on some devices...cof...iPhone...cof03:32
erstaziyeah I would like to delete some wifi connections tonight03:37
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Feral_KidI cannot find where that information is stored... I thought it would be in /etc/network, but nothing there... I know it is saved someplace, but where???03:39
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NeoStrider__Monkey: be nice to me?03:44
_Monkeyneostrider_: no idea03:44
NeoStrider__Monkey: be nice to me is hard03:44
_MonkeyOK, NeoStrider_.03:44
pupnikMICROSOFT: (n) Acronym for Myriad Incompetent Cretins Ruined Our Society Over Failed Technology03:44
NeoStrider__Monkey: be nice to me?03:44
_Monkeybugger all, i dunno, neostrider_03:44
erstaziFeral_Kid, are you here?03:45
erstaziI found it03:45
erstazidepends on what OS you are using, what OS? IT2006?03:45
pupnik_Monkey, Microsoft is http://kfmfs.com03:46
_MonkeyOK, pupnik.03:46
Feral_Kiderstazi> Yes03:47
Feral_KidI am using IT200603:47
_Monkeyi think Microsoft is http://kfmfs.com03:47
NeoStrider_its me or this site is down?03:48
erstaziFeral_Kid, ok, here is the deal, go to the applications menu (3rd one down on the left) and select that, then goto Tools > Control Panel > Connectivity03:48
erstaziwhen you select connectivity, a window will come up, select the middle button labeled Connections03:49
erstaziand from there you can delete the wlan or phone or whatever connections that you want to03:49
erstaziFeral_Kid, that is what you were looking for, right?03:51
Feral_Kiderstazi> Actually,  I am trying to copy the configurations from MMC card to my flash... So I am I looking for the file that has all of the information listed so I can copy it over..03:51
erstazihmm that would be in a file somewhere03:51
erstazihmm, let me think03:53
erstaziopening x term03:54
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Feral_Kiderstazi> I still haven't been able to find it...04:06
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NeoStridercya fellows04:07
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erstaziFeral_Kid, I am getting there looking through some debian doc... they handle wlan probably the same way since this is debian based04:08
pupniki'm seeing external ide drives with their own power now... nice04:09
pupnik*usb ide04:09
pupnikfor the usb bus04:09
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erstaziFeral_Kid, I think it has to be in the documentation/wiki or somewhere04:16
erstazieither on debian or maemo docs04:16
unique311erstazi, did u take a look at the psd04:18
Feral_KidLooking at debian, it is stored in netwoking-scripts... That doesn't exist...04:19
erstaziunique311, yes04:19
erstaziunique311, I only glanced, still working sadly, sorry about that04:20
erstaziwhere is the GConf path?04:27
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erstazi/etc/gconf I think04:31
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erstaziFeral_Kid, /var/lib/gconf/system/osso/connectivity/04:34
_MonkeyHmm.  No matches for that, erstazi.04:34
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erstaziFeral_Kid, then what I get is, they are in individual files for each connection04:35
erstaziFeral_Kid, they are in their own individual directory for each connection with a %gconf.xml file which are the info/settings for that connection04:36
pupnikNote to the search engines:  The thread for porting picodrive sega megadrive genesis emulator to nokia 770 N800 internet tablets
erstazipupnik, heh04:38
pupnikneed... mor... brainnzzzzzz04:39
erstazipupnik, I am running out of steam myself04:40
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erstaziFeral_Kid, does that help?04:46
erstazihello _Handful_04:46
_Monkeyhola, _Handful_04:46
Feral_Kiderstazi> That was what I was looking for... Thanks...04:46
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erstaziFeral_Kid, what OS you have on your mmc?04:56
erstazihello Blacksitox04:56
Feral_Kiderstazi> 200604:56
Blacksitoxheya erstazi !04:57
erstaziFeral_Kid, if you type the first two characters of a nick and then hit/tap the tab key, it will complete the nick, if its not the correct one, then you can hit/tap tab again04:57
Blacksitoxdownload acelerator for n800?04:57
erstaziBlacksitox, should you download that or ??04:58
erstazibe back in a bit05:00
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Blacksitoxerstazi, yes, something  like wget05:10
NeoStriderhello folks05:10
NeoStriderI've got a new alpha 4 RC3 for angstron05:11
NeoStrideranyone not afraid to brick his device? =-P05:11
NeoStriderI will upload it to the garage in a few minutes05:12
NeoStrider( just need some testing here)05:12
pupnikok i have to go out for a while but will try it tonight still05:12
NeoStriderok =-)05:12
NeoStriderI will leave a notice on the news section05:13
NeoStriderthanks =-D05:13
erstaziBlacksitox, have you checked the repos on
erstaziI mean ApplicationCatalog05:15
Blacksitoxerstazi, yes05:15
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erstaziBlacksitox, I am not sure what there is for opera, but there might be an addon05:16
erstazior widget as its called I believe05:17
Blacksitoxok thaks erstazi05:17
erstaziBlacksitox, personally, I don't use download accelerators so I cannot give advice on what to use05:18
* NeoStrider forgot to change the constants...what a idiot05:18
NeoStridernow angstron works =-D05:20
NeoStriderI love myself05:20
* NeoStrider is daft as a brush05:23
pupniki bet the DSP could play .mod or .midi music also05:24
pupnikmp3s are okay but take up a lot of space05:24
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NeoStridermidi is not that simple....05:25
* pupnik casts Level 5 ~Summon DSP guru~ in channel05:25
pupnikyes, but you can also implement only a subset of midi05:26
pupnikinstrument, volume, pitch, pan05:26
unique311any good news on psx?05:27
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pupnikwell, i've been playing some of my old games05:28
unique311wish i could help..05:28
unique311but i'm like so into this theming  for kagu righ tnow.05:28
unique311think obssesion might be a good word also for it.05:29
pupnikyes again there's really not much point to it05:29
unique311i will not be beaten by a freaking theme05:29
unique311not sure if you are right about no point to it.05:29
unique311you got the software GPU to work right05:29
* NeoStrider is uploading05:30
erstazifiring up photoshop05:30
unique311i'm in gimp..05:30
pupnikit compiles and loads into pcsx, but i don't know if it works yet05:30
unique311what im doing right now is just working on the icons ..05:31
pupniki had to rip out the onscreen configuration code but that's not a big deal since the config is in a text file05:31
unique311going to mail those to trevarthan  when i get done, and hopefully he can put it together.05:31
unique311with the colors05:31
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unique311pupnik, its not working as of now, why?05:32
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pupnikneed a cdrom emulator and an input plugin and a sound emulator to load a game05:33
unique311how is gp2x getting pass all of these needs?05:34
pupnikthey compiled all that stuff into the emulator05:35
unique311did the guy release the source code?05:35
unique311if thats the case..easily can work on his source code get it to compile on the n80005:36
NeoStriderclever move: eat up all that gp2x got hehe05:36
pupnikthere at least two different psx emus on gp2x05:36
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unique311actually a couple of good ports i got were from gp2x source05:37
pupnikanyway merging in pieces of emus that weren't written for each other is not something i am looking forward to continuing05:37
pupnikso either pcsx is a simple build, or i won't waste time on it05:37
pupnikdrpocketsnes and picodrive would be a better use of time05:38
NeoStriderwhats wrong, frob?05:38
unique311ill toy with gp2x05:38
NeoStriderpicodrive...I had it on my was SO good05:38
erstaziunique311, next time you send, please send it as a zip05:40
NeoStriderangstron in the garage!05:40
frobNeoStrider: this damn toolchain insists in using hardware floating point instructions rather than the emulated ones it has been configured with05:40
NeoStriderwhat are you compiling?05:40
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NeoStriderdont know it05:40
NeoStrideryou cant implement the fixed pont math?05:41
NeoStrideri did it =-)05:41
froba boot loader05:41
NeoStrideryou can always use mine05:41
pupnikNeoStrider: do you need to include all the .svn stuff in your angstron distro?05:41
frobyour boot loader?05:41
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frobanyway, that's not the point05:41
frobthere's a truck of soft fp libraries around05:42
frobI just need to build uboot05:42
* NeoStrider means his fixed point math lib05:43
pupnikwhy does a boot loader need floating point?05:43
NeoStriderfrob, isnt a matter of configuring the makefile?05:43
pupnikbeautiful loader screens NeoStrider05:45
pupnikangstron runs, starts and crashes after a few seconds though05:45
pupniki was able to move around though05:45
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NeoStriderthanks...gimp rules ;-)05:46
NeoStriderpupnik, try running from x-terminal05:46
NeoStriderI dont know why this is happening, but when called from x-terminal, I can play a lot05:47
NeoStriderbefore the memory finally floods =-P05:47
NeoStriderthere is some small takes times before the system gets slow05:47
NeoStriderand about the .svn, sorry ...this missed the eye05:48
NeoStriderthe .svn dir is HUGE!05:48
pupniknice - it's playable from xterm here too05:49
NeoStriderto me, it was quite strange that I indeed deleted a bmp file and the size of it doubled!05:49
NeoStrider770 or N800?05:49
NeoStriderspeed let a lot to be desired yet...05:49
NeoStriderbut Im quite satisfied with the visual05:49
NeoStrideralso the IA is very dumb right now05:49
NeoStriderbut at least, everything is very scriptable05:49
pupnikis it possible to run oprofile kernel on the device?05:50
NeoStrideryou will also notice the repetition of level1 as level2. Im still testing some levels to enter in the normal flux of the game05:50
NeoStrideroprofile kernel?05:51
NeoStriderwhats that?05:51
_Monkeythat is, like, part of the puzzle collection05:51
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pupnikthere are different ways to profile with gcc and i don't know how to do it yet05:51
NeoStriderthank you for the insightful comment, are the smartest member of the channel right now =-P05:51
pupnikit is a puzzle05:51
pupnikwise _Monkey05:52
NeoStrideryou mean the way gcc generates the binary code?05:52
NeoStriderlike a fatter profile and a thiner one?05:52
NeoStrideror maybe a faster but buggy05:52
NeoStrideror a secure but slower?05:52
NeoStrideryeah...i dont know05:53
pupnikprofiling is generating statistics about how much time a program spends in different routines05:53
NeoStriderI just call g++ and focus on the errors =-P05:53
NeoStriderwhats the name of the package?05:53
pupnikit is a big subject and i don't know much about it - see maemo-devel list and gcc docs05:54
pupnikand debian-arm05:54
pupniki did manage to generate profile data on the 770 and use that in a second pass of gcc, but i don't know if it was correct what i did05:55
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NeoStriderlet me guess: good for optimizations?05:55
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pupnikyes there are two ways it is useful05:56
NeoStriderthe system uses it for heuristicly diciding when to do inline and stuff like that05:56
pupnik1) you can parse the output data to generate graphs and statistics for your manual optimizing05:56
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pupnikand 2) the compiler can use the data to try to automate optimizations, from the gp2x developer forum some say they got +15% speed05:57
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NeoStriderI want that 15% on angstron!05:57
NeoStriderI NEED it!05:57
NeoStridertell me the name of the tool05:57
NeoStriderhow to use gcc to do this?05:58
NeoStrider("good questions deserve better answers")05:58
pupnik-fprofile-arcs -- for the initial compile05:58
pupnik-fbranch-probabilities -- to take account of the information written after the run05:58
pupnikthere is also05:58
pupnik-fprofile-generate  and -fprofile-use05:58
derfman gcc05:59
pupnikderf might know something real :)05:59
NeoStriderthats exactly what im doing right now05:59
pupniki heard -fprofile-arcs only was useful for x86, but that might be wrong05:59
derfI don't bother with profiling.05:59
NeoStriderpupnik, being able to manually optimize it is always good enough06:00
derfIt assumes that you can come up with sufficient test cases that exercise your code like real users would.06:00
NeoStriderafter all, its all about neumann machines =-P06:00
derfWhich turns out to be very, very hard.06:00
NeoStridernot on a closed arena 3D game =-P06:00
derfWell, okay, but those are not the kind of things I write.06:00
NeoStriderderf:  do you write stuff that really needs it?06:01
derfI write stuff where performance is, in fact, very critical.06:01
NeoStriderI sound like being a good programmer...yours apps must be optimized enough already06:01
NeoStriderhum...nice to know it06:01
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* NeoStrider swallows his tongue06:01
pupnikNeoStrider: you could also use 400x240 and Xsp for speedup06:02
derfAnd I don't mean I don't bother with profiling altogether, just not the compiler's automatic branch prediction stuff.06:02
NeoStriderI know, but this stuff is too nasty06:02
derfI would much rather just eliminate the branch.06:02
NeoStriderI remember playing hedgehop and having to remove the battery pack becouse I pressed home acidentaly06:03
derfThen it can't be mis-predicted.06:03
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NeoStriderderf:  I dont know much about what you write, but what can vary on my app is what the player sees, but this is merely a case of the size of the rendering pipeline queue06:04
NeoStrideror maybe what portals the the camera can see through06:04
NeoStriderbut its always that case06:04
derfWell, the ARM is somewhat different than a normal desktop processor.06:04
NeoStriderI know...N-Gage hacking told me that06:05
NeoStridermy 3D on it was SOOOO slow06:05
derfIt has built-in condition codes that can speculatively execute small branches and then conditionally write back the results at the end.06:05
NeoStriderlets not forget thumb...does maemo use thumb?06:05
derfSo, for example, small branches involve no pipeline stall, whether they were predicted correctly or not.06:05
NeoStriderderf, im not so worries about all this small stuff06:06
NeoStriderim just worried on where, generally , is my penalities06:06
derfYeah, profiling is good for finding the 10% of your code that is taking up 90% of the time.06:06
NeoStriderim not a expert, neither a good just worried about the game06:06
derfWell, the only way to become those things is practice.06:07
NeoStrideryeah...I remember from my N-Gage days...a game running nice on desktop is NOTHING06:07
derfAnd don't forget to read other people's code.06:08
derfThey'll teach you many things you never thought of.06:08
NeoStriderthats a point im missing...06:08
pupnikthere is a great book about efficient coding called 'Programming Pearls' - i don't have my copy handy06:08
NeoStriderive been so worried about BZK for about 3 years that I never worked on anything other that it06:08
pupnikbut Neo is right about doing high level optimizations first06:08
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derfNeoStrider: You don't have to work on other projects to read their code.06:09
NeoStrideryeah...Douglas Comer once wrote to aproach stuff on levels06:09
derfIt's definitely much easier to get big improvements at higher levels.06:09
unique311trevarthan, you around?06:09
NeoStriderderf: I know...but not even looked into its code...except for small bits06:09
NeoStrideryeah...I got a dramatic speed up when I improved the rendering pipeline, adding a "polygon merger"06:10
NeoStrideron the tesselation step06:10
NeoStriderbefore that, angstron wouldnt be even playable06:10
NeoStriderand I know Im still missing something on how I treat time06:11
NeoStridermaybe I need to do things on separated threads06:11
derfThat's almost surely a recipe for disaster.06:11
NeoStrideryeah...but if it works, may improve speed a lot06:12
NeoStridermake framerate more consistent06:12
derfOn a single CPU?06:12
derfNot likely.06:12
derfIn fact, it will almost surely make it worse.06:13
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derfAlso communication penalty.06:13
pupnikI think your main speedup will come by limiting the general-purposeness of your 3d engine06:13
derfThat's certainly the approach Doom and Descent took.06:13
pupnikthere's nothing in the 'tron' gameplay that requires a do-everything engine06:13
derfThey worked just fine on my P90.06:13
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derfI do remember Quake was a little slow on my friend's Packard Bell P66.06:14
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NeoStrideractually ,pupnik, angstron is a small project from a bigger thing06:14
NeoStriderBZK is my true big project06:15
NeoStriderthe game engine06:15
NeoStriderDoom ran on 386s06:15
NeoStridermy next project is a logo enviroment06:15
derfTexture rendering with an 8-cylce inner loop.06:16
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NeoStriderit will be of no use...but Its gonna be fun06:16
* derf <3 Michael Abrash.06:16
NeoStriderderf:  im not much into texture rendering06:16
NeoStriderIf im going to use it, I will use from SDL_gfx06:16
derfYeah, you kids these days don't know how good you got it.06:17
NeoStriderIm very fond to retro-looking games06:19
NeoStriderdriller, silpheed, hard drivin'06:19
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pupniki think Id hired Abrash at some point06:22
* pupnik has two of his books06:22
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pupniki didn't finish them though, cga/ega and x86 were just so ugly06:23
* NeoStrider swallow'd Abrash books06:23
NeoStriderwe got so many screen modes that I got lost06:24
pupnikby the way NeoStrider to ensure turning off pixel doubling - even in a segfault, i start the game with a shellscript that runs game, and then runs 'undouble' exe06:25
pupnikso even if game does not exit cleanly, xsp gets turned off right away06:25
NeoStriderhum...nice idea06:26
pupnikonce i did this i never had problems06:26
NeoStriderbut what if the use press home?06:26
pupnikthen i have to ssh-in and kill the process06:26
pupnikthat is a problem yes06:26
NeoStriderthats a huge problem06:27
NeoStriderthe screen gets garbled06:27
NeoStriderit scared the user06:28
pupniki think the sdl game has to detect if it no longer has window focus06:28
NeoStriderif I could do that, I could have lots of speed06:28
pupnikthen turn it off06:28
NeoStriderI dont know how easy is to do that06:28
pupnikpressing home should make sdl game go into pause mode06:28
NeoStridersome of that windowing funcs from SDL doesnt work well06:28
pupniki will look into it06:28
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NeoStriderI had some ugly experiences with that06:31
unique311NeoStrider, retro games huh06:32
unique311can your next deviation be pacman...please06:32
NeoStridernot hard either06:33
NeoStriderindeed, I had this im mind some time ago06:33
NeoStriderbut 2D?06:33
unique311ok how about this..06:33
unique311if you do so, you are my a god to me..not too much of a god..just a semi type god06:34
NeoStriderI will do a look on the odds06:34
NeoStrideryou will be the first to know06:34
NeoStrider(sometimes I feel I abuse on my little english knowledge...if im saying cr*p, please, let me know)06:35
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NeoStriderhow about a 3D game with 2D gameplay?06:36
NeoStrideryou know...a 3D game, but you move and play like the old 2D one06:37
unique311i will do a look on the odds..06:37
unique311not sure what you meant by that..06:37
NeoStriderI will look on the probabilities and how easy it can be06:38
NeoStrider(better? I feel dumb)06:38
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unique311I'll do some research, and see if it can be done...would be better(er)06:39
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NeoStriderthis (you guys not understanding me) happen too often?06:40
unique311your english is perfect man.06:41
pupniklike Abe's Oddysey06:41
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pupnik2D platform/puzzle game with 3d characters06:41
NeoStrideror subzero mythologies06:42
erstaziNeoStrider, honestly, when I first started to talk to you, I thought you were a native english speaker06:42
unique311erstazi, i got into computers in 0306:43
erstazihello Luria06:43
erstaziah, I have had computers around me probably my whole life06:44
NeoStriderthanks erstazi!06:44
NeoStriderI do my best06:44
unique311i thought the same NeoStrider06:44
Luriaanyone have a link for a deb of kismet for the n800?06:44
unique311but then you told me you were brazilian right06:44
NeoStriderI've been using computers since I was 8 (now Im 22...) and doing games since I was 11 ;-)06:44
NeoStriderRio de Janeiro06:45
unique311city of gods06:45
unique311best movie...06:45
NeoStrideryeah...that movie Rocks06:45
unique311actually my favorite movie...06:45
NeoStriderthe actor is now very famous06:45
unique311you must check this out.06:45
unique311or the camera dude06:45
erstazithis was one of the first computers I remember being on: an IBM 5150
_Monkeycamera is, like, so poor that the app thinks the "blurness" is movement06:45
NeoStriderZ you mean Zé Pequeno?06:46
unique311computer looks older than me06:46
NeoStrider("little joe")06:46
erstaziI am 2406:46
NeoStriderwell friends06:47
NeoStriderI got to go06:47
unique311my face on Z's body
NeoStrideralmost 1 AM here06:47
unique31128 or 29 over here06:47
unique311i stopped counting at 2506:47
erstaziunique311, where are you from?06:48
NeoStriderunique311 , hilarious!06:48
unique311I'm from Haiti...been living in New York city all my life though..06:48
unique311did that myspace in 2 days06:49
NeoStridercya fellows06:49
unique311had to draw all my top frieds..06:49
* pupnik plays pac-man on n77006:49
NeoStriderthanks for the testing06:49
unique311pupnik you like06:49
NeoStriderI will evaluate the pacman thing =-)06:49
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pupniknope - took about 10 minutes to build06:49
erstaziunique311, thats crazy, you hand drew them?06:50
unique311i have a wacom graphire 4 pad06:50
unique311makes life easier06:50
erstaziI won't put pacman on my 770, my wife will not let me have it back06:50
pupnikproblem is the levels are all designed for 800x60006:50
unique311photoshop erstazi06:50
erstaziah ok06:50
erstazinot bad at all06:50
erstazibetter than I can draw06:50
unique311the source pupnik..please..06:50
unique311pretty sure it can be modified to fit06:51
pupnikapt-get source njam06:51
unique311i tried that06:51
unique311it didn't compile for me.06:51
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pupnikworks fine here... just needs smaller levels...
pupnikit's not really the same without the pacman levels and wokka-wokka sound though06:53
pupnik*cough* "MAME" *cough*06:53
erstazipupnik, heh06:53
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erstaziwb nomis06:55
unique311is that fast on the 800 or 77006:55
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pupniki gotta say njam does look fun though.  you can edit levels in-game. there's only one more change needed and that's the size of the default levels, and making some new levels for it06:55
pupnikor keep the level size (probably wiser) and resize all the bitmaps06:56
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pupnikgreat little project for the tablets... game compiles out of the box06:57
pupnikunique311: maybe you should set up a gregale scratchbox environment06:57
frobit worked06:58
frobright at 6am06:58
frobgood night06:58
pupnikcu frob06:58
pupnikearly to bed, early to rise06:58
pupnikand 6 AM is early to bed!06:59
pupnikspeaking of which i'm out06:59
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erstazinight pupnikafk07:00
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rhysdo i have to make a password for user to use dropbear?07:09
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erstazirhys, I prefer openssh to dropbear07:18
rhysim used to openssh, but it wasnt on any of my repos.07:18
erstaziwhat tablet do you have?07:20
erstaziit should be07:20
erstazidid you look on
erstazirhys, do a search on for openssh and you want IT200707:21
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rhyscan i change the root password?08:28
rhysor will that break things08:28
rhysjust need something so ssh can login, and i can setup rsa keys and the like so much easier08:29
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erstazirhys, sorry about that, had to run08:33
erstazirhys, did you install becomeroot?08:33
erstazialso, you can use xterm on your n80008:34
erstazibut when you install becomeroot, you can just type: sudo gainroot08:34
erstaziI suggest changing your passwords by typing: passwd user08:34
erstaziand passwd root08:34
rhysyea. i know all of that. have all of that. ssh on a keyboard is a hellva lot easier though08:34
erstaziof course08:34
erstaziI would change the root password08:35
rhysright. thats what i was asking, will that break things?08:35
erstazithe reason they give you the warning is because you can break things, not root08:36
rhysyes? no? will changing passwords ruin any softwarE?08:36
erstazijust make sure you know what you are doing08:36
rhysoh. of course you can break things. thats the power of root.08:36
erstazirhys, if you got a grip on *nix commands08:36
erstazithen you are good08:36
rhyserstazi, i just want it so i can ssh into it to set up my RSA keys. oh yes. quite. dont run rm -r /*08:37
erstazibut *definitely* change the root password, its a security issue, all they have to do is ssh root@youripaddress and then type in rootme08:37
erstaziand they got your system08:37
rhyshmm. actually they cant. i just tried that08:38
rhysdidnt work08:38
rhyscheck /etc/passwd. theres a hash there08:38
rhyseven before changing it08:38
rhysohh hell yes. :D keyboard on the nokia!08:38
erstaziI might get one for my 770, haven't decided yet08:39
rhyswifi from this lappy. what i mean is ssh, i get a keyboard in nokias terminal. ty.08:39
rhysi want one...08:39
rhysa bt keyboard08:39
rhysfor class08:39
erstaziah yeah08:39
rhysmy lappy is a 8-10lb goliath.08:39
erstazithe virtual keyboard on the nokia can be a pain but you get use to it08:40
rhysaye. for typing its pretty nice. i can IM and type emails, posts and the like rather quickly.08:40
erstaziwell, the reason I have my 770 is because my toshiba's keyboard connector (where it connects to mobo) is screwed so I need something to be mobile08:40
rhysthe only problem is the funny symbols you use in a terminal08:40
erstaziI wish I could remap them08:41
rhys |, tab, :wq, etc.08:41
erstaziprobably can, but no time to mess with that08:41
rhysbah. ssh works.08:41
rhysi wana put wesnoth on it08:42
rhysand right now i need to restore certian files from my storage card into /home/user08:43
erstaziI have been doing some scratchbox stuff08:43
rhyssomeone has a browser update on their mirror that if you update to breaks the browser. it flickers when you change windows and wont stop, as well as removing options08:43
rhysim not sure where its at, because i have so many repos enabled. apt-get might tell me08:43
erstazihard to say08:44
rhysi had to reflash it, so im restoring certian things. i didnt trust the backup utility08:45
erstazirhys, thats what I want to avoid heh08:46
rhyshmm. im looking at BT KBs. ~100$08:47
erstaziespecially desktop environments08:47
erstazicraigslist even08:47
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rhyswhat do you mean expecially DEs?08:47
erstazihello nhdezoito_adrian08:47
erstazior breaking I mean08:47
rhysmy use is in a chair in a lecture hall. nothing but a little writing desk.08:48
erstaziugh, my one year old son is up08:48
erstazislapping my head08:48
rhyspoor guy08:49
erstaziwife couldn't just lay him down in his crib08:49
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erstazihe beats me up all the time08:49
erstazihi Vertoo08:50
erstaziok I am out ttyl08:50
Vertoofor some reason, my vnc viewer can only connect to like half my computers, despite the fact that their setup is identical except my mac. anyone had trouble with that before?08:51
Vertoohey erstazi08:51
_Monkeyerstazi is rusty on porting to a different arch08:51
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pwilleAnyone using the auto-away feature of Pidgin? Why does it not set me availible again when i'm no longer idle?09:13
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Vertooi wish i could just select which packets i want installed and it does them all at once itead of one at a time over an hour09:14
erstaziVertoo, I never had that problem with vnc09:14
erstaziare you sure the port is open?09:15
Vertooya, they are all local machines and the configguration is the same across the network.09:16
erstaziVertoo, thats odd09:17
erstaziwhat are the OSes?09:17
Vertoowin xp pro x4 machines. 2 work. and 1 mac os x they are all im the same workgroup and erything. windows firewall is off and has vnc as an exception on all machines. avg firewall has vnc as an exception09:21
erstazisounds odd09:24
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`0660Vertoo, have you tried wireshark?09:27
Vertoonomis, i would think that any vnc program should work the same.09:27
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erstaziVertoo, have you dried NX?09:28
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erstaziVertoo, http://nomachine.com09:29
Luriammmm nx09:30
Luriagood stuff09:30
Luria(yes, coming in the middle of a conversation)09:31
erstazihow are you Luria09:31
timelyxgood morning world09:33
timelyxwhat do people use as browser start pages?09:33
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`0660in n800 or in desktop?09:35
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erstazitimeless, depends one what you desire for a start page, but most people grab either or or a custom start page09:36
erstazisome like igoogle09:36
erstazihi adoyle09:36
erstaziI mean, adoyle_09:37
erstazibloody tab09:37
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Vertoowhat can you use as tab on the full screen kb?09:44
erstaziVertoo, many things, do you mean on the browser or an irc client?09:46
erstazion the browser will go through links, anchors and inputs..09:46
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erstazihello trashed09:48
trashedgetting lagged to death09:48
Vertoojust cause i dot like to type with a stylus09:50
Vertoosio i use the fullscreen kb and i cant just tab your name that i know of with it09:51
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roopethere is no tab on it.09:52
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Vertoowait ro, i wonder09:53
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MobileSimIs there anything along the lines of a "new 770 user" or new maemo user FAQ?09:55
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* MobileSim just came across a reference to a herring repository, and has no idea whether to add it or not.09:56
`0660there is a user manual? :)09:56
roopeyeah, those kinds of things.09:56
roopei still have no idea what 'bora' is. except a car.09:57
MobileSimThe printed one? Or an updated online one?09:57
MobileSimStuff for the 800, from what I can tell.09:57
MobileSimOr OS2007 in general.09:57
MobileSimMaemo 3 maybe? Still fairly new myself, so dunno.09:58
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roopethe wiki has plenty of info, but10:00
roopei'm not sure how arranged it is then.10:01
`0660MobileSim, the printed one10:01
MobileSimAh, yeah, that doesn't even mention Herring though, I'm sure.10:02
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roopeyes. i suggest  checking the wiki.10:03
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Vertooroope, dang, it wont do it in fullscreen kb mode. but i changed the key to make it easier. i just hit enter, then down, then enter again to go back to fullscreen10:06
Vertooroope, guess thats the easiest it gets till i get a bt kb10:07
Vertoobrb. installed stuff. gonna restart10:08
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timelyxerstazi: i'm trying to figure out how much people would object to use just having google as the default start page10:11
timelyxhi roope10:11
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timelyxthe official start page has the advantages of having very heavy content free/slow loading content with a single link to another similar page10:12
erstazitimelyx, yeah, I changed the default Nokia_770.html to google.com10:13
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Vertoohow do you save the file and quit the editor in vi?10:48
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c0ffeeor <esc>:x10:54
c0ffeeor <esc>ZZ10:54
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AD-N770good morning11:22
keesjvery well , if you really want11:25
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cy-anyone have luck with kismet on n800?11:31
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JaffaMorning, all11:38
pupnikafki was wrong about the dpad, it is* possible to get diagonal motion with it11:40
pupnikafkcy-: yes works fine11:40
pupnikafkoh sorry, n770 here11:40
cy-pupnikafk: :/  damn11:40
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pupnikafkthe xsp doubling scaler looks beautiful.  i hope to learn someday how it is interpolating the pixels11:41
guardiani mounted my n800 using sshfs outisde of scratchbox in /mnt/n800, now is there a way i could symlink so that this directory is available inside scratchbox ?11:41
inzguardian, symlinks won't work, but mount --bind should11:42
guardian--bind doesn't with sshfs :(11:42
inzit doesn't?11:42
inzahh, fuse11:43
inzthen I guess you just need to mount it elsewhere :/11:43
guardianwell in fact doing it right into /scratchbox/users/guardian/home/guardian/n800 worked11:44
timelesshi jaffa11:46
pupnikafkfullscreen SDL apps need to be modified to suspend and disable xsp pixel doubling when the 'Home' key is pressed11:50
guardianis there a deb that installs the n800 theme on the sdk ?11:52
timelessyou should be able to make one11:54
timelessi think the instructions at should be portable to such a task11:54
timeless(they're written for capturing locale files, but they don't really know what they're cpaturing)11:54
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timelessgenerally speaking nokia doesn't provide normal debs to the outside world for things that ship as part of the flash11:55
timelessgeaaru: fwiw, somemone internally complained about the localhost stuff11:55
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timelesshowever, they posted a patch to the browser, even though the bug is fundamentally in ICD11:55
timelessyou can view logs from last week (?) to see my discussion about it11:56
* timeless should try to rewrite that patch as a patch against icd and post it11:56
guardianthx timeless11:57
guardianand pupnikafk :)11:58
geaarutimeless: ok, i see log about browser. ty11:58
pupnikafknow i have no problems with the home key while running my xsp sdl app...11:59
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disqtimeless: i've been getting some 100% cpu usage (and unresponsiveness) in the browser lately (opera engine)12:01
timelessflash enabled?12:01
disqflash disabled12:01
timelessnote that i really can't do much w/ flash12:01
timelessi can't say what nokia will do w/ opera, but if you were to bet, it's pretty safe to bet against anything being done to it12:01
disqhappened three times this morning. maybe a race condition12:01
Luriasorry if someone answered this before - i was massively lagged -12:02
disqit's not about opera, looks like browser ui12:02
disqi should switch to microb engine for a few days and try to reproduce tho12:02
timelessdisq: ah, that's different, i believe we have -dbg packages up12:02
Luriais there an n800 deb for kismet?12:02
timelessif we don't, we can fix that12:02
timelessotoh, w/o symbols of some sort for opera, things tend to break in most cases12:02
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cy-Luria: no guarantee that it works tho12:07
cy-Luria: I am fighting with it now as well :P12:07
Luriai wis12:07
Luriaim not even pentesting12:08
Luriai just want snr numbers to get flakey connections working12:08
Luriadoes the deb break anything or need dev dependancies?12:10
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MobileSimAnyone know if there's a version of Plankton for the 770 anywhere?12:15
MobileSimtigert's blog says 800 only, but I figure someone must've tried to backport it by now.12:16
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Luriacrap - opera is crashing every two minutes12:24
cy-Luria: I dunno what the deb pkg requires12:26
cy-probably libpcap and wirelesstools or something12:27
Luriacy- i expected as much12:27
Luriawas hesitant to install wireless tools12:27
Luriabut i guess ill bite the bullet12:28
Luriatho maybe after i backup12:30
Luriai mean a real backup12:30
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Luriabtw is anyone having problems witj crashing - ie disappearing backgrounds and applets ?12:32
cy-that kismet pkg wants to use /media/mmc112:33
Luriasorry for my typing - on the thumbboard ;-)12:33
Pekka_EI am setting up scratchbox using Nokia scripts and intltool is causing head-ache12:33
Pekka_Edpkg-build can not find path and if I add PATH =$PATH:/scratchbox/devkits/doctools/bin/12:34
Pekka_Emake can not find libs12:34
Pekka_EI am trying to compile maemo- mapper12:35
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red-zackre, hi guys.12:40
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Jaffa would be very cool if the N800 is a fully supported platform for it12:41
cy-Luria: Hmm12:47
cy-Hard to tell if it is working properly12:47
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Tilidoes anybody know if portaudio would compile on maemo12:54
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inzdisq, yeah, I noticed it13:48
inzdisq, but there's certain problems with registering gobjects and being a plugin13:48
disqi was actually looking to see if they had any job openings13:48
disqah, true13:48
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cy-ugh, what the fuck13:50
cy-all of a sudden my sd card won't mount13:50
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cy-or it will only mount in the mmc1 slot, but I cannot write to it.. I/O error13:51
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alteregoHow big is the card?13:53
cy-all kinds of I/O errors in dmesg13:53
cy-I guess I could format it13:53
cy-or try to..13:53
cy-I can find how to do that.. heh13:55
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cy-formatted it, works now14:45
cy-wtf that was wack14:45
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cy-or not15:01
cy-fuck, wtf15:02
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_MonkeyGuten Tag, sbaturzio!15:21
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cy-man that's fucked up15:31
cy-ruined my sd card :/15:31
cy-ohwell, kismet running fine now15:31
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Toma-Following this guide, dpkg-buildpackage: unable to determine host architecture" in the buildpackage step... what am i doing wrong? :( Im getting "
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adoyleerstazi - you pinged me earlier (in the middle of the night for me...)15:49
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tbfhmm: <- seems nokia doesn't target the german market? this would explain why you cannot find the n800 in shops here16:28
trevarthanugh. I didn't realize that I'd have to support people who know nothing about linux when I wrote the A2DP support into Kagu. :)16:28
_Monkeya2dp is, like, working here and is good. :) If you want a nice frontend GUI for a2dp after following the instructions on that page, ask me about kagu16:29
trevarthanThis guy is having trouble with the `cp` command of all things. And then I get yelled at for not having a proper installer.16:29
trevarthanAt least I'm trying to help him. I could just ignore the guy. geez.16:29
timelessyou have my sympathies, although it's worse if you write a browser :)16:30
trevarthanI bet16:30
timelesspeople ask us why the devices reboot or their wifi basestation dies or ...16:30
timelessthankfully we haven't had too many reports of siblings getting measles16:30
trevarthanright, because the browser is the internet, after all. :) these people have no business using computers.16:31
trevarthanno, that's not fair.16:31
disqtrevarthan: ignore him from now on, don't let it get to you.16:32
timelessstick up a lucy sign. advice 10 cents16:32
Wizzardtbf, i bought n800 in Latvia, im sure you can find it in DE :)16:32
disqtrevarthan: any word on the new sprites.png unique311 is working on?16:32
trevarthanI mean, it's freaking `cp`. All you have to do is copy the line and paste it in xterm. how hard is that?16:33
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disqcopying from the browser? it's pretty hard16:33
timelessdepends on how broken selection is16:33
timelessoften it's very hard16:33
trevarthandisq: you catch the thread about unique's theme it yesterday?16:33
infobottrevarthan meant: disq: you catch the thread about unique's theme  yesterday?16:33
disqlast i remember his gmail acct was blocked for some reason16:34
trevarthantimeless: yeah man, get that fixed in the freakin' browser! :)16:34
disqi got the pink pixels and AA bit16:34
trevarthanoh. he sent me a mock up yesterday.16:34
timelessdid i provide a picture of that problem?16:34
trevarthanhe's having trouble with the colorkey concept.16:34
trevarthanmostly because photoshop defaults to anti-aliasing everything, I think.16:35
disqcolorkeys can be too technical for some people, especially now that we're living in a 32bit RGBA world16:36
trevarthanYeah, I was a little annoyed that I had to use them. I tried RGBA, but it was just too slow.16:36
disqhopefully he'll get used to it tho16:36
disqi imagine it would be16:37
trevarthanI haven't had to use colorkeys since win98 days16:37
disqhalf-life 1 engine days here.16:37
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trevarthanmaemo-myth has too many freakin' deps. anyone got a .deb?16:44
disqah trev, i debianized and compiled libmokoui2 yesterday16:45
trevarthangot a demo app yet?16:45
disqthough writing python module/bindings is a totally different issue. asked in gimpnet #pygtk, the channel was idle, then i left16:45
renatofilhotrevarthan: the current version of maemo-myth is deprecated a new version is coming16:45
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disqdidn't put together a demo yet16:46
trevarthanyeah, ok. It's not like there has been a release, so I don't think you can deprecate anything yet. :)16:46
NeoStridergood morning people16:46
trevarthandisq: no sample apps?16:46
trevarthanNeoStrider: Good Morning!16:46
disqtrevarthan: it's a subclass of GtkContainer. i'm guessing any widget you put on it becomes finger scrollable.16:47
trevarthanthat sounds cool16:47
trevarthanhey, btw. Does anyone know if there is a way to detect whether or not our window is in the foreground from python?16:48
NeoStriderdisq, what this is good for?16:48
NeoStridermaybe I just did get it16:48
trevarthanI'd like to enter the extended idle loop when kagu does into the background.16:48
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trevarthanNeoStrider: inertial/kinetic scrolling via finger movements.16:48
trevarthanNeoStrider: it's a replacement for hard to use scroll bars.16:49
disqtrevarthan: there's an application_top call i should check16:49
NeoStrider"it's a replacement for hard to use scroll bars." now we are speaking =-)16:49
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trevarthanNeoStrider: if you want a quick (but kinda crappy) example, check out the kagu media player on maemo.org16:50
disqchecked, it's not it16:50
NeoStrider770 friendly?16:50
disq770 friendly. only tested with one item though.16:51
NeoStridertime to do more tests =-)16:51
trevarthanlet us know what you find.16:51
Jaffadisq: any chance it could be a patch to Gtk+ to make *everything* finger scrollable by default?16:51
trevarthanNeoStrider: you might also check out UKMP on They use kinetic scrolling too.16:51
disqJaffa: not sure. possibly. move gtkcontainer as gtkcontainer_real and rename fingerscrollthingy as gtkcontainer16:52
trevarthanJaffa: that would be hecka sweet.16:52
NeoStriderUKMP didnt worked here...16:53
NeoStriderhey I need python!16:53
NeoStriderwhere can I get the debs?16:53
disqyou need python2.5 and also pygame16:53
trevarthanyeah. you need python 2.3 for UKMP, python 2.5 for Kagu.16:53 should do it16:53
trevarthanpython2.5 is at!16:53
_Monkeypython2.5 is at!16:54
_Monkeypython is a real pain in the rear when it comes to unicode.16:54
trevarthanI remember that conversation16:54
disqtrev, i think that's your quote btw16:54
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trevarthanforget python16:54
_Monkeytrevarthan: I forgot python16:54
trevarthanpython is at!16:55
_Monkeyi think python is at!16:55
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disq_Monkey: don't think, know16:55
_Monkeydisq: sorry...16:55
Jaffatrevarthan: exactly. Doubt it would work in the browser, tho'16:56
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erstazitrevarthan, is it true that either 770 or an n800 cannot use png-24 efficiently and its prefered to use png-8?16:57
disqthe browser can be messy depending on how they implemented the panning16:57
trevarthanI would love disq long time if he got that working. :)16:57
trevarthanerstazi: which application are we talking about?16:58
disqi have no intention of patching/compiling gtk+-maemo and trying to get it running on the device :P16:58
* NeoStrider is getting on the nerves with those .install16:58
erstazitrevarthan, any actually, but specifically working on the theme for karu last night16:58
trevarthandisq: jerk16:58
disqit's pointless when nokia people are talking about how it's bad to use a different build of gtk and trying to get us synced with upstream for maemo4.016:59
trevarthanerstazi: I don't know about other apps, but with kagu you need to be using an RGB png, not an RGBA png. No alpha channel.16:59
NeoStriderthere is only the .install16:59
Jaffadisq: you could submit it as a Gtk+ compile-time switch :)16:59
NeoStriderno debs for me =-(16:59
erstazitrevarthan, ah I see16:59
JaffaThen Nokia wouldn't need to fork.16:59
erstazitrevarthan, thats the issue16:59
trevarthanerstazi: use the colorkey for transparency.16:59
erstaziI will work on it more tonight, that makes life easier, I got work to do17:00
trevarthank. thanks!17:00
disqi'd prefer getting libmokoui2 known and distributing/supporting it17:00
trevarthandisq: yeah, we need to make some example apps first, then if people love them it'll likely find it's way upstream.17:00
disqgotta get python bindings17:01
erstazialso, I am going to try to port some things tonight that are on the list17:01
timeless => trevarthan17:01
NeoStridersorry guys no tests here...I dont have wifi here17:01
timelesscan someone please explain haf to me?17:01
disqwe could reimplement it in python but it's kinda unhealthy to fork at this point17:01
erstazibecasue pupnik (+afk) told me so17:01
trevarthandisq: would it be easier to write a simple example C application first? Send me the .deb for openmokoui, then let me play with it? :)17:01
timelessis haf hosted on stage?17:02
trevarthanI just want to see what it can do. you're a C gtk expert, right disq?17:02
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trevarthantimeless: what? I'm not sure what you're asking, or what that page is.17:02
timelessyou asked something about fixing selection,. no?17:03
timelessthat's my description of how selection or panning or <pick your favorite tap behavior> is hard17:03
trevarthanI was mostly joking around. But yeah, it's a little difficult to use.17:03
timelessa little is a bit of an understatement17:04
trevarthannew firmware seemed to make it a little easier. but maybe I just got lucky17:04
disqtrevarthan: i have a few years of experience with it but i'm no expert :)17:04
disqanyway check your mail17:04
renatofilhodisq, i have a simple example of use libmokoui2, if you want, I can send to you.17:05
Jaffatrevarthan/disq: any test app I'd love to play with to give my feedback on. I find UKMP's kinetic scrolling not quite right (and I'm not sure why). Would love to play with an alternative implementation.17:05
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trevarthanJaffa: install kagu. I freely admit that it sucks just as much as UKMP though.17:06
disqtrevarthan: i like kagu better :P17:06
trevarthanmaybe a little less, as there are no false clicks... not sure17:06
trevarthanmy biggest complaint is that kagu gets swapped out sometimes and the scrolling hangs for a bit. that is uber annoying.17:07
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trevarthanthat's my fault for letting the memory bloat so much though17:07
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* lardman thinks Python is great!17:08
trevarthanyeah. it's nice. I just wish it didn't use so much ram.17:08
Jaffatrevarthan: I've only got UKMP installed to demo kinetic scrolling to people ;-)17:08
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lardmanIt great the way you can go from idea to application so easily17:09
lardmanReminds me of OPL on the Psion17:09
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timelessok, i've posted
trevarthanJaffa: you installing kagu?17:12
timelessso people can use "browser" instead of "/usr/bin/browser"17:12
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inztimeless, see #5587317:14
lardmanDoes pygtk allow one to handle mouse/pointer clicks/doubleclicks on a textbox?17:15
ccharlesHi! if I install OS2007 on the n770, what sdk do i use? maemo 3.1 or 2.2 ?17:15
timelessinz: blah17:15
inzccharles, I would guess 3.017:15
timelessinz: why are people filing those things in internal?17:15
ccharlesinz: thanks17:15
timelessit's open code17:15
ccharlesjust that the documentation seems a little sparse on this17:16
Jaffatrevarthan: does Kagu have the inertial scrolling too, now?17:16
NeoStriderccharles: I have seen my game (compiled with sdk 2.2) working on N800s17:16
trevarthanIt always has. I think konttori might have gotten the idea from kagu. he just released first.17:16
disqJaffa: it had it from the start?17:16
NeoStriderso I guess SDK 2.2 will do17:16
timelessinz: that patch is scary17:17
inztimeless, thanks17:17
Jaffatrevarthan: apologies then!17:17
NeoStriders/seen/heard of/17:17
timelessway too complicated17:17
timelessand it has memmove!17:17
timelessscary, scary17:17
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trevarthanJaffa: we've got a binary release up on though. quick 5 second install. try it.17:17
trevarthanwell, 5 minute install if you don't have python2.5 yet.17:17
NeoStridertimeless:  you said about /usr/bin/browser and just browser17:18
NeoStriderthere is a diference?17:18
timelessbrowser alone won't work17:18
NeoStriders/there is/is there17:18
timelessbecause haf sucks17:18
timelessinz: your patch is almost certainly bad17:18
NeoStriderthats strange17:18
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NeoStriderwhen I start my game from the icon, the crashes about 5 seconds later17:19
Jaffatrevarthan: I've gt Python, just no network connection (it appears)17:19
NeoStriderusing ps -a, I get it listed as /usr/bin/angstron17:19
NeoStriderwhen I start from terminal, it is solid rock17:19
trevarthanJaffa: ummm... how the hell are you talking to me then? :)17:19
inztimeless, at least it works ;)17:19
NeoStriderand ps -a list it as just angstron17:19
NeoStriderany idea?17:19
timelessinz: hey mine works too, for a smaller domain :)17:19
timelessinz: your patch has tabs, one space indentation, and some other unfortunates :(17:20
* timeless tries to figure out what the memmoves actually do17:21
* NeoStrider wonders if anyone paid atention to what he said...17:22
timelessno :)17:22
NeoStriderok =-p17:22
timelessinz: so, err. what are you memmoving, all the args?17:22
disqtrevarthan: if we're using gtk, then sure :P17:23
inztimeless, yes17:23
trevarthandisq: yeah, I just released we need a window object for that.17:23
timelessthey're all pointers, right?17:23
Jaffatrevarthan: well, no network conn on my N800 - wireless appears to be down. A single dep on python2.5-runtime? I'll copy the deb across17:24
disqJaffa: isn't python2.5-runtime a meta package?17:25
trevarthanJaffa: unfortunately not.17:25
_Monkeypython is probably at!17:25
disqJaffa: we need python2.5, pygtk, python-dbus, python-osso, python-pygame, python-gobject.. i think that covers it17:26
JaffaI think I've got most of them.17:26
trevarthancopy over the kagu deb and give it a try then?17:26
inztimeless, the strings need to be copied there so ps shows the right name17:26
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Jaffatrevarthan/disq: do I need to run the scanner before the player?17:28
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disqJaffa: the player will take care of things for you, but yeah it'll automatically run the scanner if it's your first run17:29
madamhello all.  i'm writing a program and i'd like it to minimize to the sidebar when i press a hardware button.  gtk_window_iconify() makes the window disapper, that's right, but its icon does not appear on the sidebar.  what do you think?17:29
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disqmadam: you should use hildon_window and hildon_app classes instead of gtkwindow17:30
madamdisq: the window is an instance of HildonWindow, which is-a GtkWindow if i'm right17:31
NeoStridermadam: are running it directly or you installed it and you run it from the icon?17:32
disqmadam: yes. it could be the service file being missing, or osso not being initialized17:32
madamNeoStrider: it's launched directly from the command prompt17:32
NeoStriderdisq: had the tought of the same thing I did17:33
madamdisq, NeoStrider: other applications like the web browser behave correctly; it's not like osso is not initialized.  maybe i should set my program can_hibernate() ?17:34
NeoStridermadam: im working on a SDL app that doesnt do "can_hibernate()" and shows up on the taskbar17:35
disqmadam: more like, you should call osso_initialize() at startup. after gtk_init and before gtk_main seems like a good place17:35
NeoStriderits just a matter of a service file properly configured17:36
disqmadam: follow the maemo development tutorials at and compare your code :)17:36
lardmanDoes gtk.Entry have its own window? Trying to work out whether I can add a clicked signal to it17:36
disqlardman: there should be a class tree/diagram somewhere in gtk docs. clicked could work, why not just try17:37
lardmandisq: Good point, can;t atm as at a WinXP box17:37
lardmandisq: Plus it's not listed in the docs as being a valid signal17:38
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Ryback_hi destino17:39
MoRpHeUzdestino: =)17:40
NeoStriderhi destino17:40
lardmandisq: Ah, could be a masked signal, will give it a try17:40
destinohi folks17:40
disqlardman: trying a focused signal (not sure if that's the signal's name?) could be better for the purpose though17:41
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NeoStridercya fellows17:44
lardmandisq: I've seen that signal. What i want is to alter the text selection within the textbox depending on whether it's a single or double click, and the cursor location17:44
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lardmandisq: To be exact, I'm editing equations and want to be able to highlight (and then replace) all, or just parts between operators (+-*/ etc.) or brackets depending on the clicks17:45
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madamdisq: minimizing still doesn't work as expected; tried osso_initialize() both before and after gtk_init(). the function returns a valid context. any further idea?17:50
disqdoes minimizing using the provided minimize button on the top-right work correctly?17:50
disqmaybe it's deiconify's fault17:50
disqor iconify rather17:50
madamdisq: nope, it doesn't17:51
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madamdisq: maybe i should set an icon for my program?17:51
disqi have no further ideas, i suggest you dive into the maemo tutorial to investigate17:52
disqiconless programs work ok17:52
madamdisq: thank you and NeoStrider anyway; hope to meet soon again17:53
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trevarthandisq: this is a nice little optimization to aid in multi-tasking:
disqooh! our first rev after the 1.0.1 roll17:55
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disqgood idea btw17:55
trevarthan:) yeah. couldn't bring myself to work last night. I'm getting over a bit of burn out.17:55
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_Handful_does anyone knows why for example when trying to install ukmp, I'm not able to click on " open "  (after the one click install link is touched) ?  and all other one click installs gives me the ability to do it? Is it lack of some dependencie or could be a error on ukmp packages?18:01
_Handful_*if I try to install from the file it just fails (icon is on the menu) but no real application linked on the .desktop18:02
_Handful_strange thing : / I will ask this on garage ..18:02
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disq_Handful_: it's a configuration problem with the server. probably the mime type is wrong18:10
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_Handful_unm, I imagine that, but I should be able to install from file right?18:10
_Handful_but don't wory I will take a look at it later18:10
disqi don't worry about ukmp. :P18:11
_Handful_well, I'm just taking a look =) not only at it but also kagu and others =)18:14
_Handful_I'm quite happy to see these python applications =)18:15
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trevarthandev: any luck with SIP and python?18:20
devtrevarthan: no time yet, had the 0.4.0 release of my UPnP framework yesterday18:21
trevarthanoh, well, congrats on 0.4.0!18:22
trevarthangot a link to the framework?18:22
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trevarthancool. anyone interested in integrating that with kagu?18:23
trevarthan(I'm not. I can never get UPnP to work for me)18:24
trevarthan(but I know lots of people love it)18:24
disqcool framework18:24
devtrevarthan: it is not that difficult, if you know what to do (as with most of the things)18:24
trevarthandev: my problem always has and will be the fact that I use MythTV, and I'd need to transcode everything on the fly.18:25
trevarthanwell, not for audio.18:25
trevarthanbut I usually don't use my n800 for audio at home. I've got mythtv and a big sound system for that.18:25
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devtrevarthan: it has a few features, that come quite handy ->
devlook at the local store thing there18:27
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_Handful_the mythTV upnp server is quite :" temperamental"18:27
devand UPnP is not just about playing something, controlling is much more fun18:27
trevarthandev: Coherence does slide shows? That's cool. I'd like a good slide show on my n800. not sure if mythtv publishes my images via UPnP though.18:30
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devthe MediaRenderer does the slideshow (on the N800)18:30
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trevarthan_Handful_: tell me about it. I have to disable it, otherwise, when I turn my Xbox 360 on, mythbackend's CPU goes through the roof and stays there until I restart it. I think they fixed that after 0.20, but I'm running 0.20.18:32
devtrevarthan: there will be a .deb this evening or tomorrow18:32
_Handful_yes I know18:32
_Handful_we have a quite of trouble hacking around mythtv18:32
_Handful_but did you saw morpheuz works on that? streaming from mythtv/ etc ?18:32
trevarthanthey need to rewrite mythtv in python. everyone would be happier. :)18:32
trevarthan_Handful_: yeah. doesn't work too well yet.18:33
_Handful_yeah, but can be improved with collaboration =)18:33
trevarthanMoRpHeUz: did you ever run the NUV issue by the gmyth guys?18:33
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: I told them about this...18:34
trevarthan_Handful_: I talked to the mythtv devs about gmyth, and they said that the only thing for it is to wait. They're currently working on making it possible to store multiple encodings of a given recording. That'll make the whole gmyth thing easier.18:34
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: hopefully they'll have a look on that...18:34
MoRpHeUzbtw, kulve could get the setup was a silly mistake from him...18:35
trevarthan_Handful_: then they can implement frontends that do transcoding on the fly, streaming, etc, and cache everything.18:35
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: my experience with mythtv's devs are that they are a little bit complicated and not well organized (just like their code hehe)18:35
trevarthanyeah. I wouldn't call MythTV a "mess". But it's definitely not clean either.18:36
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: exactly..18:36
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: they have this plan about doing transcoding on the fly since the beginning of the year.18:36
trevarthantakes like 30 minutes to compile. That's the worst. And you've got to run the same version client as the server. Makes it impossible to develop for in my house because I've only got one server and it's production.18:36
* Jaffa hopes the MythTV app for Maemo is suitably open that I could hack in a Freevo backend.18:36
MoRpHeUzbut they just talk hehe18:36
MoRpHeUzJaffa: it's already open...(gmyth, gmyth-streamer and a demo app is on the way)18:37
* trevarthan hopes that someone writes a python frontend for mythtv. That would be ideal.18:37
trevarthanI try not to touch C/C++ with a ten foot poll if I can help it.18:38
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: some guys like GreyFoxx, xris are good developers there..18:38
JaffaMoRpHeUz: yeah, I'd love to see some protocol documentation - and the website seemed a little confusing (once it's using MokoUiScroll, though, I'll want that app :-))18:38
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: that's what I tried to do with gmyth-streamer...18:38
trevarthanyeah. I was talking to xris. I think he's the original author.18:38
MoRpHeUzJaffa: documenting mythtv's protocol is a p* in the a* hehe18:38
MoRpHeUzJaffa: it's 100% experimenting since mythtv's wiki is too old18:39
kulveyes, I got the transcoding working with mencoder18:39
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: xris is the original author of myth-web18:39
trevarthanMy guess is that they need to learn how to compartmentalize things better.18:39
kulvegmencoder doesn't work, but probably because I have too old gst18:39
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: Chutt is the maintainer ...18:40
JaffaMoRpHeUz: so it is using the MythTV-proprietary protocol between the N800 client and the server?18:40
MoRpHeUzJaffa: mythtv's protocol is not proprietary..18:40
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: have you ever take a look on mythtv's source code ?18:40
JaffaIt's proprietary to MythTV and, as you've just said, not documented18:40
trevarthanyeah. A few times. Mostly when I was hacking MythGame back in the 0.19 days though.18:41
MoRpHeUzJaffa: got your point..18:41
MoRpHeUzJaffa: it uses myth's protocol through gmyth...gmyth abstracts this for  you18:41
trevarthanI also looked into the xvmc code when I was trying to get bob deint working with HDTV. I gave up. Is horribly b0rked.18:41
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: I tried to help them with some code, but it's really a mess..18:42
JaffaMoRpHeUz: But I want to use Maemo-Myth (or whatever it will be called) with a non-Myth backend. gmyth won't do much here, will it, unless it also provides the ability to write a Myth-compatible server18:42
Jaffa(specifically, Freevo)18:42
trevarthanI've also had to go in a few times debugging SQL problems. That's no fun either.18:42
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: exactly...freevo's guys are easier to deal and they want people to help them...18:42
trevarthanIs freevo written in C too?18:43
* Jaffa 's had lots of Freevo patches accepted. Very happy with it, and I found MythMusic too painful to stick with MythTV18:43
MoRpHeUzJaffa: gmyth-streamer is 100% written in can get the idea from there to use on Freevo...18:43
Jaffatrevarthan: nope, you'll love it: Python :)18:43
MoRpHeUzJaffa: already talked about this with disch (free18:43
trevarthanhow does it compare to mythtv? same feature set? what's it missing?18:43
MoRpHeUzJaffa: freevo's maintainer18:43
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: freevo = 100% python =)18:43
JaffaMoRpHeUz: Freevo 2's maintainer. I'm not holding my breath for that, TBH :-/18:44
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: hehe18:44
MoRpHeUzthat's the point18:44
MoRpHeUzJaffa, trevarthan: they are trying to make freevo 2 a lot better than freevo 118:44
Jaffatrevarthan: Recording scheduling isn't quite as nice, but it's much less resource intensive IMHO18:44
MoRpHeUzand then it'll be a really "heavy competitor" for mythtv18:44
JaffaMoRpHeUz: yeah, but it's typical SSS - it's taking forever, hence the restart of the Freevo 1.x branch.18:44
MoRpHeUzJaffa: it's because they need people18:45
JaffaFreevo 2's plans look fantastic, but it's slow going due to a lack of hackers.18:45
trevarthanyuck. SDL.18:45
MoRpHeUzthey are just a few (3 ??) developers to rewrite almost everything18:45
JaffaMoRpHeUz: indeed.18:45
MoRpHeUzJaffa: =)18:45
trevarthanDoesn't Mythtv use QT?18:45
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: yeah18:45
trevarthanseems like QT is a better choice, to me.18:45
trevarthanActually, GTK would be excellent too, but QT is probably easier to theme.18:45
MoRpHeUzmythtv is a really mess (it works but...): they have a lot of small applications and too much replicated code...18:46
* Jaffa would consider giving MythTV another go if there was a much better music playing plugin18:46
Jaffa(Not just UI, but quality)18:46
MoRpHeUzthis is why I wrote gmyth-streamer...easy to implement more inputs (it has file, dvd and mythtv), transcoders handles (mencoder and gstreamer actually) and streams everything through it's easy for the n800 to receive the stream18:47
kulveis it possible to play the music in the background?18:47
trevarthanJaffa: I think that's one of mythtv's major problems. It's difficult to develop addons for.18:47
kulvewhile watching images, or something18:47
MoRpHeUzJaffa: take a look at this
trevarthankulve: no.18:47
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: I agree with you18:47
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: too hard to develop addons and more features for mythtv18:48
kulvetrevarthan: that's the main reason I use xmms for that.. Otherwise mythtv might be the only app needed on my mediabox..18:48
trevarthankulve: I like it because it works well with an IR remote. I just wish it wasn't so hard to hack.18:48
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: it happens in part because the mess on the code and in part because of it's maintainer's arrogance18:49
trevarthanKagu would actually make a really nice replacement for mythmusic, IMO. But I don't see that happening as it's python and myth is C.18:49
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: you can do that =)18:49
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: that project of a mediacenter for xbox is 100% written in python and they have a mythtv plugin18:50
MoRpHeUzyou just need to know the protocol18:50
trevarthanyeah, I could run it from mythgame. :)18:50
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MoRpHeUzhold on, I will be back soon18:51
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timelesscan anyone suggest a couple of big name web apps that work w/ microb but not opera (other than the google suite)?18:52
timelessdoes youtube actually work better in microb?18:53
* timeless doesn't really use flash sites18:53
trevarthando I need to be in red pill mode to install screen?18:54
JaffaMoRpHeUz: sounds great; if gmyth-streamer (you need a better name ;-)) supports different backends, I'll happily do the Freevo one when some of the test apps are available. Presumably the Maemo client doesn't need to talk to the backend (MythTV/Freevo), it just queries gmyth-streamer about available media?18:57
JaffaMoRpHeUz: hmm, no - I'm wrong? suggests that the Maemo frontend talks directly to MythTV & gmyth-streamer (what's gst-plugins-mythtv?)18:58
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Jaffatimeless: IIRC19:05
trevarthanJaffa: last time I checked, gmyth-streamer still has some major problems. Usually you can only stream once or it will throw an exception or hang mplayer open. Did you get that fixed MoRpHeUz?19:06
trevarthanJaffa: it's basically just a thin wrapper around mencoder. It start mencoder, manages the process, and streams mencoder's STDOUT over HTTP.19:07
Jaffatrevarthan: I see.19:08
* Jaffa was thinking of writing something similar :)19:09
trevarthanit's a great idea. The problem is that mencoder doesn't want to die sometimes. And telling mencoder not to print status messages on stdout doesn't work for some codecs (i.e. divx). So, basically, mencoder kinda sucks.19:10
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trevarthanThe other problem is that gmyth doesn't strip out all the NUV crap from the stream, so at best you get skipping sometimes. At worst, it just won't play on the n800. The end result is usually codec dependant.19:11
trevarthanFor example, by default, gmyth streams mpeg1. :) why? because mpeg1 appears to be the least fragile and the n800 will actually stream it.19:11
trevarthanhardy ideal though.19:12
infobottrevarthan meant: hardly ideal though.19:12
trevarthanfor now, I just use and have done with it. streaming is too problematic at the moment, mostly because mythtv and mencoder are buggy.19:13
pupnikafkmpeg1 has less state info19:15
pupnikafkor statefulness19:15
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red-zackwhat about a 2gb mmc card and n770, working fine?19:23
pupnikmin3  is19:23
pupnikkingston i think19:23
red-zacki have a 2gb card, some trouble19:24
JaffaMPEG1 should also be lower CPU intensive to encode (compared with DivX et al)19:24
red-zackbtw, hi pupnik ;)19:24
pupniki think it's awesome that mplayer can handle even xvid now19:25
red-zackbut i love to travle around the city, spying for wlans19:25
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red-zackdsniff portable for 770?19:26
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red-zackhr, yes it is, but "missing install"19:28
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syntuxHey, just got my nokia n800! what next :D19:33
kulveplay mahjong19:33
Luriaflash it19:34
_MonkeyFirmware and associated utilities are available from
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syntux:-) How to upgrade my software ?19:34
trevarthansyntux: Install Kagu!19:34
Luriakagu meh19:34
trevarthaninstall canola?19:35
syntuxdarn, key locked and I can't unlock it lol19:35
red-zackfirst install "xterm"19:35
Luriacanola is better19:36
trevarthansyntux: defaults to 12345, I think19:36
trevarthanLuria: I'm hurt.19:36
Luriakagu is a great way to kill your battery ;-)19:36
trevarthandoesn't canola kill it just as fast?19:37
Luriaoh i like the inertial scrolling19:37
trevarthanI don't care. you're dead to me.19:37
Luriaand kagu shows more promise19:37
syntuxthank you folks, you rocks!19:38
Luriawhen i want to use the n800 as an mp3 player19:38
pupnikyou will find that the dac is surpassed by 40 euro mp3 players19:38
Luriabattery life is king, and ive found kagu more cpu intensive19:39
pupnikwell not 100% sure about that, but s/n on my 770 is somewhere around 60 db19:39
Luriapupnik, no doubt.19:39
trevarthanLuria: that's a valid argument. How much better is canola? I ask because they both use SDL behind the scenes (which sucks with battery)19:39
Luriagah one sec19:39
Luriamuch better19:41
Luriaon bt keyboard19:41
Luriacouldnt hold a conversation with the stylus :-)19:41
trevarthanyeah. I like the thumb kb better. now, finish telling me how much my baby sucks and why?19:42
Luriatrevarthan, i know they both are sdl based, and i havent done any testing, but anecdotally, i find the cpu and battery draw higher on kagu than canola... and im not a canola fan19:43
Luriamostly observed by running both in the back ground19:43
Luriaand how quickly my machine shuts off at 2 bars remaining :-)19:44
Luriaother thing about kagu - and perhaps i am an idiot - how do i get it to play all tracks on random? or something other than the selected album19:45
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syntuxguys, is it safe to flash it ?19:45
Luriaand please, dont think i hate kagu... i havent run canola since - but i have gone back to the inbuilt player :-/19:46
Luriasyntux, its necessary :-)19:46
Luriajust have a full charge19:46
kulvesyntux: it's safe19:47
Luriaand do the windows auto install, its painless19:47
kulveand the backup/restore things works nicely even though it doesn't restore the apps you have installed19:47
syntuxI'm doing it from linux.19:47
trevarthanLuria: playlist functionality is in progress-ish. I think disq is interested in doing the random stuff.19:47
kulvesyntux: yeah, linux is the way :)19:47
Luriasyntux, its a bit of a pita19:48
syntuxok, I'm downloading the flasher.19:48
trevarthanLuria: as far as background'ing the process goes, I just noticed that problem yesterday and I committed a patch today that will reduce CPU usage dramatically when kagu is in the background:
Luriatrevarthan, i know its a work in progress :-)19:48
kulvesyntux: after flashing it's in the same state as when you bought it. Except newert sw19:48
Luriatrevarthan, was it still trying to refresh/rerender?19:49
trevarthanLuria: Yes. It was still rendering everything in the background. Any other gripes? I'm here to listen.19:49
Luriathose are the big ones19:49
trevarthanOK. Let me add a ticket for Random play mode. Maybe disq will be interested in jumping on that one.19:50
Luriaerr... also...19:51
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Luriathe music scanner... its not a happy camper19:51
trevarthanoh yeah? what's the problem?19:51
trevarthanHere's the random playmode ticket:
Luriaespecially didnt like my non latin char sets. the german survived, but the hebrew had to go19:52
Luriaalso blew up on the dl attempt19:52
trevarthanYeah. I'm not sure what to do about that. Python's urllib sucks with unicode and other non-ascii charsets. We probably need to replace urllib with something usable.19:53
Lurianot entirely you i assume - why nokia, with all its l10n experience couldnt give maemo proper unicode and rtl19:53
Luriais totally beyond me19:53
trevarthanit's python's fault, not nokia.19:53
trevarthanwhy the world isn't running unicode right now, I don't know.19:53
trevarthanI'll make a ticket for that too and see what I can do.19:54
Luriastill... giving me the char lookup for the unicode character is NOT unicode support19:54
Luriatrevarthan, since the german eventually scanned, but the hebrew didnt the rtl might be fatal, while nonlatin just buggy19:55
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Luriaalso, ran 5-10 attempts to scan 230 songs before deleting19:55
Luriaeach took about 5 minutes19:56
trevarthanI don't know if you're a programmer, but if you are, and you find a patch that works, let me know.19:56
Luriai have been. if i have some time, illtry to do something19:56
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trevarthanticket for that one too:
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trevarthanLuria: thanks for the feedback. Let me know if you notice anything else.19:58
Luriaany help?20:06
_Monkeyany help is, like, welcome20:06
noisheIs there anything setup wise you have to do to a clean n800 to get the moz based browser to resolve it's dependences?20:06
trevarthanforget any help20:06
_Monkeytrevarthan: I forgot any help20:06
Luriaim not sure at what point the code is failing20:06
trevarthanshould give a backtrace in the xterm20:07
trevarthanthat func looks like it might help, btw.20:08
trevarthanI don't have any non-ascii chars in my id3 tags ( I stripped them all when I was using UKMP)...20:09
Luriaso you are asking me where to dl foreign music, eh?20:09
trevarthannot really.20:10
trevarthanlet me write a patch and you can tell me if it works for you.20:10
Luriai was kidding :-)20:10
trevarthanBTW, do you get a line number in the backtrace? Just to make sure it's failing where I think it is?20:11
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Luriai might not be able to reproduce this until i put something more complicated than german back on my n80020:17
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trevarthanwell, tell you what: do that sometime, then send me the backtrace. we'll go from there, ok?20:18
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Luriaill do what i can20:19
MoRpHeUzJaffa, trevarthan: sorry, I'm back20:20
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MoRpHeUztrevarthan: the problem about streaming more than 1 media is that mythtv does not support it..20:21
trevarthanLuria: I updated the ticket with that URL. I'll need a backtrace to determine if it's worth porting though. Doesn't look like a drop in as we're doing the part after the '?', and that code seems to be doing the part before the '?'.20:21
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MoRpHeUzJaffa: the client just makes an http query...then gmyth-streamer uses gmyth to get data from mythtv backend20:21
Lurialet me try to reproduce it later and grab the output20:23
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Luriai gotta run run20:27
Luriabye all20:27
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cannonballHey all.  My coworker just got a nokia tablet.  There's no ping, the docs indicate that busybox should be able to provide it.  I tried symlinking it, but it said applet not found.  Am I close to doing it the right way?  Am I missing something really obvious?20:28
cannonballI don't know much detail about this particular equipment/os.  It's my first exposure to it.20:29
JaffaMoRpHeUz: Excellent! So an appropriate amount of hackery to gmyth-streamer to support Freevo would mean MaemoMyth wouldn't need to change?20:30
kulvecannonball: busybox needs to be reconfigure/recompiled to provide ping20:30
kulvecannonball: my device seems to have ping though..20:30
kulvecannonball: did you upgrade the firmware?20:30
cannonballHe says no.  Has not upgraded anything.  He's going to the wiki and going to look for things along that line.20:31
cannonballHe said something about another repository as well.20:31
cannonballSo I guess he's going to install the iputils package.20:31
kulvefirst thing to do is to update the newest firmware20:32
kulvebecause the "flashing" will erase everything there20:33
MoRpHeUzJaffa: exactly20:33
MoRpHeUzJaffa: that's the way I tought about it...but as I'm no on that team any more, I can't assure that things will happen like this, but I still talk with the guys about this if you want to send any suggestion for me, it will be welcome! =P20:35
cannonballkulve: apparently he has the latest :-)  Came with it, so that's cool at least.20:35
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N800trevarthan, you want an ok button?20:35
kulve_Monkey: 18?20:35
_Monkeykulve: wish i knew20:35
kulve_Monkey: I knew that!20:36
_Monkeykulve: i'm not following you...20:36
cannonballkulve: 3.2006.49-220:36
kulvecannonball: so, he has 770?20:36
trevarthanN800: sure.20:36
kulvecannonball: remember to always tell if you are talking about 770 or n800.. :)20:36
trevarthanif you want, feel free to do button down images too. I can always code those in.20:37
cannonballcvs commit  -m "Always say model"20:37
cannonballLinus woudl be so disappointed...20:37
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N800the other dude knows the settings to use to get transparency going.  so i'm just going to end up putting together a layout and he'll do the rest..20:38
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N800trevarthan, can you show me an example of a button drop down image?20:46
N800i have no idea as to what this is..20:46
trevarthanClick a button anywhere on a normal desktop system. See how it looks like it has been pressed? The image is shifted to the right and down by a pixel or so. Sometimes, with rounded images, you can change the shadows to make it look like it has been pressed. That's what I mean.20:48
trevarthanI think canola might have really obvious button down images. Don't those round buttons get pushed in when you touch them?20:49
trevarthancould be wrong....20:49
trevarthanbeen a while since I used canola.20:49
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: no, we don't20:50
N800tried canola once20:51
N800so for every icons button on the sprites.png you need an alternative.20:52
N800that shows it was pressed20:52
trevarthanyeah, that's the idea.20:52
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k-s[WORK]or you use Edje (EDC) files and specify a new state that can be just the image with a position offset, new color, alpha....20:53
k-s[WORK]really easy :-)20:53
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destinoyou can also modify the original image by code, but i would only recommend that if you are trying to make something compatible with lots of themes20:55
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syntuxneyahahah Finishing flashing... done21:02
trevarthank-s[WORK]: yeah, we're still using pygame. no edje here.21:05
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akjohnHowdy all..21:05
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: too bad :-P21:05
trevarthan:) we can't all be cool like the canola kids.21:06
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: you should really try it, I told you :-)21:06
akjohnI have a Nokia N800 running IT OS 2007 1.2006.47-20 and having trouble with the browser and loading https sites..21:06
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: it's not being cool as canola kids, but as the E kids... we're following their infra :-)21:06
akjohnAnyone have a moment to chat with me?21:07
trevarthanbtw, how does the edje event loop work? Is it like SDL where you need to add sleeps to not chew up 100% cpu? Or is it like gtk where all of that is hidden from you and everything is event driven?21:07
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: kenne and I wrote this tutorial, may be of help:
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: it's like GTK21:07
syntuxwhich works better with Nokia N800, Gizmo or Skype ?21:07
timelessinz: sure, but do you need to move all the other things? it just feels like you're running around in a loop, when i'd hope that a single memmove would be sufficient21:07
timelessakjohn: what sites?21:07
akjohntimeless, Any site I try..21:08
timelessand which browser?21:08
N800syntux either or21:08
timelesspick one and name it?21:08
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: Edje is just a "smart object" of Evas (the canvas), the main loop stuff is done by Ecore (something along the lines of GLib)21:08
N800both are really good21:08
akjohntimeless, The normal browser.21:08
timeless ?21:08
timelessand have you tried rebooting your device?21:08
akjohntimeless, I checked the time and it was off. I reset it and rebooted it and it is doing the same thing still..21:08
trevarthank-s[WORK]: how do you get a specific frame rate then?21:08
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: it's more optimized for graphics, with the "animator" avoiding you to have multiple timers for animation21:08
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: you set the animator frame rate21:09
k-s[WORK]it's doable with g_timeout_add() and some code, sure21:09
trevarthanHow does the speed compare to pygame? (blits, specifically, but font rendering too)21:09
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: blits are much faster, I wrote the 16bpp to be like that :-)21:09
akjohntimeless, I get a "Unable to complete secure transaction"21:10
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: fonts are a bit slower, because it render the fonts directly and not an image that is then blitted... but it saves lots of memory21:10
trevarthank-s[WORK]: one of my biggest problems with kagu is font rendering. I'm having to pre-render and cache things, which is bloating my ram usage a lot.21:10
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I have binary packages for n800, you can try my demos... I'll package kenne kinetics list example soon21:11
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I know that, we do that with canola21:11
k-s[WORK]sorry, we did21:11
timelessakjohn: have you done anything funny to your device?21:11
timelesse.g. deleting all certificates from control panel :)21:12
trevarthanSo what's the big motivation for edje? Just getting a few more blits per cycle out of the hardware?21:12
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: that don't show too much, just if you use soft shadow you'd notice any difference21:12
akjohntimeless, Um... I dont think so..21:12
trevarthanI mean, you can abstract everything yourself, so having a gtk like event loop doesn't seem like that big of an advantage....21:12
akjohntimeless, I did look in there and all the CA certs where there, but there are not any user certs..21:12
timelessthere normally aren't any user certs, that's fine21:12
* timeless configures a wifi network for an n80021:13
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: as I told you, Evas is the canvas (something along pygame.sprite.Group), Edje is a tool to read description and resources from a text file, store resources on one file... like a theme, but with basic scripting21:13
* timeless gives up and uses 3g21:13
timelessok, i get: Secure connnection21:13
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: Evas manages objects in layers, try to minimize repaint area, etc...21:13
timelessThis site has sent an untrusted certificate21:13
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: Ecore manages timers, loop, ...21:14
trevarthank-s[WORK]: so the big motivating factor is that you wanted a decent theme engine and didn't want to write your own?21:14
timeless* Certificate name is invalid or does not match the name of the site21:14
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: Ecore_Evas manages connection with window manager, expose events from X, etc...21:14
timelessi take it you're getting a different error :(21:14
akjohntimeless, I noticed it this morning on gmail after my N800 crashed last night..21:14
akjohntimeless, Yep..21:14
* timeless nods21:14
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: Edje is something like CSS + JavaScript... it define states, transitions and events to trigger transitions, together with a basic scripting and layout engine21:14
timelessmonths ago i had problems where certman flaked out21:15
timelessbut i haven't seen them recently21:15
akjohntimeless, I get the "site has sent an untrusted cert", then I click continue21:15
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: on top of those, we also have ETK or EWL, widget sets like GTK... but that you can blend with your eye candy21:15
timelessum, ok, then what?21:15
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akjohntimeless, Then I get the message again, and I click continue,21:15
timelesshow much data do you have on your device? :)21:16
trevarthank-s[WORK]: oh... so it comes with it's own widgets? Do you use them? Or have you decided to make your own?21:16
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: ETK and EWL can be mixed with the canvas, for example you can fade in your dialog to ask for password, then slide it... move buttons, do whatever you want21:16
akjohntimeless, Then I get "Unable to complete secure transaction" then I click ok and nothing happens..21:16
* timeless nods21:16
akjohntimeless, Lets see what df says..21:16
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: use ETK so far... it's almost like GTK, almost the same API21:16
timelessi think if i were you, i'd backup my data (not necessarily w/ backup) and reflash :)21:16
akjohntimeless, / is 54% /tmp is 14%21:17
timelessbut you're welcome to try to see if the other browser works better21:17
timelessit's pretty unlikely that it would, but who knows :)21:17
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: you can set your own theme, per application but also per widget... (no big thing here)21:17
akjohntimeless, Dang.. I need this for maemo-mapper for a trip tomorrow..21:17
trevarthank-s[WORK]: sounds like a big time investment just to develop for the n800.21:17
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: what? our time?21:17
trevarthanno, mine21:17
akjohntimeless, I guess I could try flashing to the newest and try to put everything back togerther again..21:17
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: guys did the hard job21:18
akjohntimeless, *together21:18
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I already wrote the difficult bits of optimization21:18
trevarthanIt does sound like a really nice engine though.21:18
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: what's left now is just write your app to use it :-P21:18
timeless52% used in / here, so you haven't really added too much21:18
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trevarthanHow much RAM does it use with python loaded and nothing else?21:18
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: sure it take some time playing with Evas/Edje to get it right and use correct... but it pays in the end21:19
akjohntimeless, I have added some things, like maemo-mapper, xterm and things..21:19
timelessmost of maemomapper is or should be on mmc21:19
timelessthere are only a few files / gconf bits21:19
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: which app? you need to check... usually it's less than if you did it with PyGame... it reference count images it open, use the same data, etc21:20
timelessmigrating it is tolerable21:20
timelessxterm is reinstallable21:20
akjohntimeless, Yeah.. Just a bummer to have to put everything back in and what not..21:20
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: raster, the main author, is careful with those things... although e17 is bling bling, it uses less memory than XFCE21:20
* timeless nods21:20
timelesstry the other browser21:21
trevarthank-s[WORK]: <sigh> sounds really good. Too bad I'd have to rewrite everything.21:21
timelessas i said, it's unlikely to help, but unless you're paying for bandwidth it shouldn't hurt21:21
akjohntimeless, I dont have the other browser..21:21
akjohntimeless, Eh?21:21
akjohntimeless, I thought I needed the latest firmware to load the new browser..21:21
timelessoh, you're using 3.200721:21
timelesswell, if you're feeling adventurous, :)21:22
akjohntimeless, 1.2006.47-2021:22
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: for canola we had to rewrite just the UI, we designed it to be split in Model-View-Controller, so jut views are being rewritten21:22
trevarthank-s[WORK]: I might start a branch of kagu rewritten for edje/avas/etk/place-your-stupid-acronym-here. (you really need a single name for all of that, BTW)21:22
timelessthat's um, like the original shipping release21:22
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: actually we'll rewrite controllers too... but just to move them to python (== simpler, easier to maintain)21:22
_Handful_use EFL21:22
timelessmost devices shipped w/ a slightly later one21:22
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: single name is EFL21:23
akjohntimeless, I am just from the "if aint broke" thought process21:23
k-s[WORK]stands for "Enlightenment Foundation Libraries" :-P21:23
timelessoh, me too21:23
trevarthank-s[WORK]: yeah, if I do the rewrite, I'll probably make the music playing portion a separate backend process and communicate with the frontend via DBUS or sockets.21:23
timelessbut the devices i have that are like that have collected a lot more cobwebs than yours has :)21:23
akjohntimeless, What do you mean?21:23
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: ah, MoRpHeUz and lsobral can be handy here... they're writing such backend21:24
trevarthank-s[WORK]: disq has been wanting to write a GTK frontend anyway, so that would let us experiment with different frontends.21:24
timelessi have a couple of devices i don't reflash21:24
akjohntimeless, How many do you have??!?21:24
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: if he alredy know GTK, it may be faster to write at first glance, but don't be fooled21:24
timelessbut i'm sure i collected more pieces21:24
trevarthank-s[WORK]: frankly man, I really wish you canola guys would just open source that crap so I didn't have to do all of this extra work just to support A2DP and play with some tiny extra features. That sucks. You're all a bunch of jerks.21:25
timelessakjohn: 1 770, a proto n800 w/ 72% used on /21:25
akjohntimeless, Ah..21:25
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timelessand 2 n800s21:25
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: so do I, believe me21:25
timelessthe proto and 770 are devices i've used heavily21:25
akjohntimeless, I see.. Nice to have a budget for a gadgets..21:25
timelessthe others get reflashed probably weekly21:25
_Handful_hehehe that's what I call being straight to the point =)21:26
* _Handful_ is a jerk21:26
timelessakjohn: nah, working for nokia doesn't quite do that21:26
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: why don't you use mplayer and write a small app outside canola to change ~/.mplayer/config21:26
_Handful_a2dp works on canola =)21:26
trevarthanoh well, at least you're providing us with cool tools to make things with. But then you're like "here's the new version of canola, so all your hard work is completely useless now"21:26
_Handful_just use mplayer like you did on kogu =)21:26
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akjohntimeless, Oh.. I guess that helps..21:26
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timelessakjohn: i'm paid to work on the web browser21:26
_Handful_trevarthan: I don't think this.. as you said.. people that likes to hack21:26
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_Handful_would play with the other things..21:26
timelessso problems w/ it interest me professionally (if nothing else)21:26
_Handful_freedom of choice =)21:27
akjohntimeless, Well. I guess I need to backup and flash then eh? Can I just snag my home directory over to a flash card and then flash the device with the newest firmware?21:27
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: next canola version will be in Python, so you can try to hack it even if it's not open source... ;-)21:27
k-s[WORK]but I hope it will21:27
_Handful_but we fully understand your point =) we think that same.. but managers don't =)21:27
JaffaWhat justification would there be for it *not* being OSS?21:27
k-s[WORK]Jaffa: managers not getting it21:28
trevarthan_Handful_: if you're telling me to work around the fact that canola is closed source, then you obviously don't understand open source at all.21:28
Jaffa_Handful_: think of the features even the current Canola would have if it was OSS.21:28
k-s[WORK]Jaffa: we're trying hard, it's at the legal dept right now21:28
timelessyou'll want to grab the gconf directory tree too21:28
_Handful_trevarthan: I didn't said I understand it.. but =) we are fighting to open it, because we know how it works and how much the application could benefit from being open source21:28
timelessbut it's basically gconf and ~21:28
_Handful_and even more ... how it would be easier to know good people interested in the software.. =)21:29
k-s[WORK]Jaffa: me too... even I, as a developer, have things that I'd like different and can implement, but I cannot release this work21:29
akjohntimeless, Where is the gconf tree and how do I restore it cleanly?21:29
timelessin my case, i want ~, gconf, and apt/dpkg info21:29
timelessgconftool/gconftool-2 are the proper ways21:29
timelessbut you'd need to read a man page or something for info about how to do it right21:29
_Handful_we are making pressure, because we understand the possibilities... but if they (managers) think other ways... or have other plans... it's complicated..21:29
k-s[WORK]Jaffa: we could have almost all webservices inside canola, like proper flickr, audioscrobbler, ...21:30
trevarthan_Handful_: let me know when that happens. But until then, you give me no choice but to write my own competing app. And it's not like either one of us are really getting paid for it (I know you guys are funded a bit, so not so true on your end), so it just doesn't make any sense.21:30
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I already wrote a competing software too!21:30
_Handful_trevarthan: that's the point.. I wrote about it. I even don't think as competition because we are trying to do the same : make maemo great21:30
k-s[WORK]to my own paid software!21:30
akjohntimeless, _sigh_ Okay.. I do not really have time to mess around with this, so hopefully maemo-mapper keeps going..21:30
timelessmaemo mapper iirc uses gconf21:31
_Handful_and you and konttori made us pretty happy when developed in python21:31
k-s[WORK]it's called catota! check my playground:
_Handful_and we would be even more happy if this would grow even more =)21:31
timelessit's /var/lib/gconf fwiw21:31
timelessand you can /try/ to just archive the tree21:31
timelessalthough it's not technically legal21:31
trevarthank-s[WORK]: _Handful_: if you can't open source canola, I think you should focus on other aspects of the system and stop competing with the open source players. They'll mature on their own, but it's harmful to have Canola out there undermining them.21:31
akjohntimeless, Legal? What do you mean?21:31
timelessthe api says you're supposed to use gconf apis21:31
timelessinstead of just going behind the daemon and touching its files21:32
akjohntimeless, Oh I see. I would use the term "proper" instead of "legal"21:32
pupnikwhy does dspmp3sink suck for catota?21:32
_Handful_and even with canola not being open, at least all the components, and really hard and important work is on the publics repositories .. so we are releasing the important bits for delovepers like you and others to also benefit (if the code is good of course.. )21:32
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: we can't. we don't work on it because we want, but because we're paid to do so21:32
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: and we were born _FIRST_ :-D21:32
_Handful_yes.. and more: I don't think we are mining the player... but if you think so21:32
_Handful_for example21:32
_Monkeyfor example is 0x00 a valid value for a Java bytecode?21:32
k-s[WORK]pupnik: at that time? it was mplayer fault!21:32
k-s[WORK]pupnik: does it still suck? I think mplayer were fixed21:33
_Handful_a guy sent me a though comment about not being able to use and that he would never user canola..21:33
trevarthan:) probably disq.21:33
pupnikk-s[WORK]: just reading from your blog21:33
_Handful_so I really think that we are not mining... we are in the end helping improving it..21:33
akjohntimeless, Do you really think flashing it will correct the problem?21:34
_Handful_- not in the best way of course... =)21:34
_Handful_no.. it wasn't disq =)21:34
_Handful_as " slow "21:34
timelessakjohn: not many choices21:34
timelessit pretty much has to21:34
timelessthe sites aren't broken21:34
timelessit's very unlikely your file system is corrupt21:34
trevarthanwell, perhaps the competition motivates. But I think it's harmful too, cause you guys are getting paid and I'm not. :) Makes me want to pack up and go home, you know?21:35
timelessand even if it is, you're still better off w/ a backup and finding out sooner21:35
timelessmy guess is certman is corrupt21:35
_Handful_I know... this sucks.. but look what you guys made in such small time...21:35
_Handful_it's incredible21:35
timelessalthough i don't think we ever really figured out how/why that happens21:35
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I know, but your work is important for us...21:35
timelessi'd probably move to either 3.2007 or 4.2007. but my proto is i think 2.2007 :)21:36
_Handful_I think is important for maemo...21:36
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: like chenca and I always proposed using Python, you proved to our boss that it's possible21:36
akjohntimeless, Ah.. Well I guess I will start trawling the wiki for back and flash guides.. I was thinking to go to the latest so I could use the mozilla browser..21:36
* timeless nods21:36
akjohntimeless, Do you have a link to a backup and flash guide handy?21:36
timelessi happen to use the mozilla browser on both 4 and 3, so i'm not picky about that21:37
timeless4 has the advantage of trying to correct touchpad problems21:37
infobottimeless meant: 4 has the advantage of trying to correct touchscreen problems21:37
timelessbut some people have complained that 4 hurts things21:37
akjohntimeless, You mean when you use the finger keyboard?21:37
akjohntimeless, Cause I use that a ton..21:37
akjohntimeless, And it so annoys me when applications interact with it differently.21:38
timelessif you mean the small keyboard21:38
timeless(vkb, not fkb)21:38
akjohntimeless, No I mean the big keyboard for finger typing..21:38
MoRpHeUztrevarthan: k-s[WORK]  mentioned a media backend...I'm working on it with lsobral ... =)21:38
timelessthe touchscreen problems were generally afaiu limited to stylus/fingernail input21:38
timelessif you have problems using thumbs, that's not something i'm aware of21:39
timelessbut, i'm starving21:39
timelessand my food choices are dwindling21:39
akjohntimeless, All right.. Thanks for the help.. Go get something to eat eh?21:39
trevarthank-s[WORK]: so we're like an idea farm to you. :) a proof of concept application. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I suppose it makes Canola better in the long run, which, if I want to use Canola (and I did originally), helps me in a round about sort of way.21:39
trevarthanIt's like open source work flow without the open source.21:40
_Handful_I don't think is that trevarthan, I think is like user's need not idea farm =)21:40
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: not much an idea farm, but as one that get things done first21:41
_Handful_because we actually had bold plans for canola since the beginning.. (actually that was the motivation to go efl now) now we needed a infra to implement our ideas in a fast way21:41
k-s[WORK]idea of python was born more than a year before21:41
_Handful_imagine yourself using sdl without pygame... it's a slow and pain process : /21:41
trevarthanI dunno. I get it. I just don't like it very much. And it sounds like you don't like it much either. But it sounds like we're stuck with it.21:41
_Handful_yeah.. we for SURE don't like it.. believes us21:42
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: yep21:42
syntuxwhich repos are safe to use ?21:42
_Handful_what we can do is : try to release most of the componets that we can21:42
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: we tried to keep things as free as possible21:42
akjohntimeless, Did you take off yet?21:42
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: EFL is BSD, I could let our manager tell me "make it in house and change the license", but we didn't21:42
pupnikdevelopers need to eat too21:43
k-s[WORK]libdmapsharing was released by andrunko as LGPL21:43
_Handful_pupnik: a lot =) lol21:43
akjohnNah.. Devs can run on sode alone right?21:43
_Handful_I wish... =)21:43
akjohnSo, how good is the backup app at getting you back in shape after a firmware rev?21:44
_Handful_I could run on Fazer chocolate21:44
trevarthank-s[WORK]: I think I want to benefit as large of a user base as possible though, and it sounds like EFL is huge and difficult to port. Are there any other well known applications using it right now?21:44
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: E itself, but it's in C21:45
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: you have doxygen docs, some texts on the platform overview21:45
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trevarthanA large part of me feels like if I use EFL I'll just be supporting Canola and it's license. :) And that kagu will be forever in Canola's shadow. And if I restrict Kagu to the n800, then it might indeed be forever in Canola's shadow.21:48
trevarthandid that hit the 255 char limit? I can't tell.21:49
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: and that tutorial I told you21:49
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: ?21:49
trevarthanI'm not sure what you're asking.21:50
_Handful_I think you should not worry about us21:50
akjohnI guess folks missed my backup question...21:51
_Handful_better you should only look, and see if we released something that was not available that is worth using =)21:51
akjohnAnyone have any experience with the backup app?21:51
pupnikakjohn: vague questino21:51
akjohnpupnik, Hmm.. Not sure how I could be more clear.21:51
trevarthan_Handful_: yeah. I guess that means that unless I really need the performance, EFL doesn't really make much sense for kagu.21:51
N800trevarthan, you are still being ask to join the darkside21:52
_Handful_so it will never be on the shadow.. and being free. make's you faster than us21:52
_Handful_because we have other projects..21:52
pupnikakjohn: it saves certain things and not others21:52
_Handful_I think it's not performance.. I'm a UI guy21:52
trevarthan_Handful_: I might really need the performance.  I'm not saying I don't. But switching just because it's there isn't a good decision.21:52
_Handful_I like the choice because it's so much faster to create rich ui21:52
akjohnIs there anything that I need to backup outside of what the backup application backs up before reving my firmware?21:52
N8003 icons down 8 to go21:52
_Handful_I wouldn't ever switch because of performance.. it's about speed for doing great rich ui21:52
akjohnpupnik, Hows that?21:52
_Handful_and even better... you can actually make the ui team do a lot of the boring work for the developers..21:53
pupnikakjohn, i reccommend you back up the things you want to keep that the backup application does not backup.21:53
akjohnpupnik, I agree, but sadly I have no idea what those things might be..21:53
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trevarthan_Handful_: I'm not really all that interested in a great rich UI. I'm more interested in dead-simple and ease of use. I'm not sure if EFL would make that more difficult or less difficult.21:54
pupnikThe backup application saves and restores user data stored in ~/MyDocs (by default) and setting directories and files in /etc/osso-af-init/gconf-dir (a link to GConf database /var/lib/gconf), /etc/osso-af-init/locale, and /etc/bluetooth/name. The application can be configured to back up other locations and files as well by using custom configuration files.21:55
pupnikFor all data that is not normally backed up, the so-called locations configuration is used.21:55
pupnikThe locations configuration paths must not overlap with the documents path.21:55
pupnikThe locations configuration allows the applications to install a configuration file with a list of files and directories that must be included in the backup. The configuration file must be installed into the /etc/osso-backup/applications directory and named <application>.conf. The file must consist of simple XML format. The following example illustrates the example_libosso.conf configuration file:21:55
trevarthan_Handful_: I'm also interested in portability. And I think EFL rules that out.21:55
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: why?21:56
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: we have it working on macos too, and win32 is not far (almost finished, using direct3d)21:56
trevarthanWhy does it rule it out? EFL + python bindings isn't widely available on anything but maemo yet.21:56
trevarthanI think the correct approach for kagu right now is to separate the backend from the frontend and continue developing using pygame for now, but leave the door open for GTK and EFL.21:58
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trevarthanAnd the longer I wait to do that, the harder it will be, so we should probably make that a priority.21:58
akjohnpupnik, Ah! Thanks!21:59
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: have at look at catota, I have engines split and you can grow on it21:59
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MoRpHeUztrevarthan: just need some update regarding gmyth-streamer parameters...22:01
trevarthanlooks like it's a frontend, basically? In GTK? with support for multiple backends?22:01
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: yep22:05
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: with multipe player engines and sources22:05
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: I have few sources, like the file chooser22:06
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: maybe you can add a playlist there, dunno22:06
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: it was born as a clever hack to allow me experiment with mplayer without using command line22:06
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brian__Hi all, when I try to play 'Road to Ruin' (the sample audio clip) in my N800 it says 'Unable to perform operation. Try again'.22:07
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brian__I've rebooted and the behavior is the same.22:07
brian__Well I've power cycled.22:08
kennek-s[WORK], horizontal kinetic scrolling is in git ... there is a ctor karg 'horizontal' that you must set to True22:08
dospoddoes anybody have maemo installed on a computer?22:09
k-s[WORK]kenne: thanks22:09
proctotrevarthan: is there any work planned on improving kagu performance?22:11
dospodI like the hildon ui and was wondering if someone had it installed on their computer also22:11
proctoI haven't had a chance to look at the code, so I can't offer any specific comments, though22:11
proctoMoRpHeUz: are there any catota packages? It looks pretty darn nice.22:14
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proctoMoRpHeUz: I'm stuck using only windows machines until I get all the parts for my new computer, so building from svn ain't happening for me22:15
pupnikhmm, free movies and films for all
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MoRpHeUzprocto: I think that it's just from svn, right k-s[WORK] ?22:15
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k-s[WORK]procto: no, just SVN22:16
proctooh well22:16
k-s[WORK]procto: feel free to continue, I can give you every copyright if you want22:16
k-s[WORK]code is clean, simple22:17
MoRpHeUzprocto: why procto ? =P hehe22:17
proctok-s[WORK]: one of the main thing that's appealing to me about it, is the ability to use mplayer to play upnp stuff22:17
k-s[WORK]procto: you can write any source you want22:18
proctoI'm looking at the code22:18
proctoit really is good22:18
proctoI so often see python code that looks like C without curly braces22:18
proctosp moce wjem tjat osm22:19
proctoI mean, so nice when that isn't the case22:19
k-s[WORK]procto: not my code, believe me :-)22:21
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k-s[WORK]although some examples of edje/evas are more like bash script than anything else22:21
k-s[WORK]too small and simple22:21
proctowhile I'm a big fan of EFL, I think it's overkill for most things22:22
pupnikthe evas youtube is nice.  keep making videos of cool things - helps promote the nokias22:22
proctoI think Catota has just the right interface for its type of app. I'm very impressed22:22
trevarthanprocto: yes. lots. what aspect of performance are you curious about?22:22
_Handful_pupnik: that's the goal =)22:23
k-s[WORK]pupnik: yep!22:23
proctotrevarthan: the "everything is slow" aspect. Scanning I understand, but it takes over 15 seconds to load an 80 song playlist22:23
proctoI didn't time it exactly22:23
trevarthanyeah, that's a long playlist.22:23
trevarthanI'll work on that.22:23
trevarthanmost of mine are 12 songs or less.22:23
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proctobut what is it doing when it's loading the playlist? like I said, I haven't looked at the code22:24
proctoShouldn't it only be doing something like reading an xml file?22:24
proctoand dumping it into the UI?22:24
trevarthanprocto: It's allocating a surface for each item in the scroll widget. That's surprisingly slow.22:24
proctoI see22:24
proctoI only got my n800 2 weeks ago, and I don't have any linux computers to develop on at the moment (main computer's a laptop, and waiting on asus to send me a replacement for a video card that BURST INTO FLAME)22:25
trevarthanI'll see if I can change it to not allocate a surface, but instead blit everything on the fly. I've been meaning to do that for a while now.22:25
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: ooooouch!22:25
proctoI'm itching to code something :>22:25
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: please don't do it22:25
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: keep surface for the N visible items + 2 spare22:25
proctok-s[WORK]: that might not work well with kinetic scrolling22:26
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: cycle those (wrap)22:26
trevarthanyeah, that's a good idea.22:26
k-s[WORK]procto: it does22:26
proctotrevarthan: how about actually only having a single widget?22:26
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k-s[WORK]procto: kenne have a video showing that22:26
proctolike one huge button (I'm not 100% familiar with the API)22:26
proctowith selection identified by scroll position?22:26
k-s[WORK]procto: he don't have widgets, but simple SDL/PyGame surfaces...22:26
proctoa bit hacky, but might be faster22:26
proctoright, so it handles a bunch of surfaces, right?22:27
trevarthanprocto: if I do it k-s[WORK]'s way, the load time will go way down. I can optimize further from there.22:27
k-s[WORK]procto: right22:27
proctoso I'm thinking you can have a single surface, with text on it22:27
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: please do, we do that in canola and works fast22:27
proctoso only one surface is handled22:27
proctoand you're just moving it up and down22:27
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k-s[WORK]procto: and when you move it one item up?22:27
trevarthanthey are widgets, actually, but they're virtual. They're not like GTK widgets or anything. But they are their own objects.22:27
k-s[WORK]procto: you'd have to recreate it... horrible, managing 10-20 items are not slow22:28
proctok-s[WORK]: the whole thing is larger than the screen. So you can move it up and down22:28
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jjazzI'm looking for an RSS reader for the n800 that will grab the full version of the pages excerpted in an RSS feed.  Anybody know of such an app?  Thanks.22:28
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trevarthank-s[WORK]: I've been wondering if a linked list would be better for the scroll widget than a normal python list too. Then I could have a pointer to the viewport's top edge and not have to walk the entire widget item list every time I render.22:31
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: python list is vector but with smart implementation, it's fast if you append()22:31
proctowhy can't you have a pointer with the normal list?22:31
trevarthanhmmm... I suppose I just need to access it by index. I've been looping it.22:32
syntuxguys, whats the default root@nokia password?, trying to connect via SSH22:32
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: no, use iterators (for element in list)22:33
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: that's not slow, possible something else22:33
trevarthank-s[WORK]: why iterators?22:33
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k-s[WORK]trevarthan: iterators are optimized to do iterations over sequences or any objects22:34
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: list iterators are fast22:34
trevarthank-s[WORK]: you sure they aren't just fancy interfaces to the normal looping constructs?22:34
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: yes, but it's the fastest way22:34
k-s[WORK]if you do "for i in xrange(len(list)): list[i]" it's slower22:35
trevarthangot any documentation to that? I've never seen that claim.22:36
k-s[WORK]some, 1)
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k-s[WORK]hope it helps22:37
trevarthanyeah. thanks.22:38
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trevarthanof course, pygame is almost always the bottleneck in practice (according to religious use of cProfiler), but I do have a few places where I could improve python calculations. (mostly in the scroll widget itself)22:39
pupnikif that endgaget device were the successor i'd buy it in a heartbeat.  the keyboard gives you plenty of buttons - only the dpad is worrisome22:39
pupnikbut if it is low-resistance (i.e. not a hard click) it's a win22:40
jjazzpupnik: a keyboard is the last thing I want on the thing.  For real work, I have an external keyboard that I usually leave at work.  For just carrying it around, the stylus and my thumbs are more than good enough.22:40
jjazzkeboard = lots of bulk for nothing22:41
pupnikfor stand-up texting with thumbs22:41
pupnikfor right-hand side buttons for games without alienating the buziness people22:41
milhousenow i know where all my storage has gon22:41
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: you have to reduce usage of blit22:41
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: do you have anything to manage your objects?22:41
milhousejust did a backup of my n800 - 176MB!22:41
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: like what need to be repainted?22:41
milhousenormally about 30MB22:41
trevarthank-s[WORK]: no, not yet. I thought about that this morning. Only a few regions of the screen need to be repainted, but I'm currently repainting everything all the time.22:42
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: this points to my code22:42
k-s[WORK]it will be useful for you22:42
milhousewhat the hell have i installed which has filled up /home/user to that extent...22:42
trevarthank-s[WORK]: thanks!22:43
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jjazzmilhouse: du -h22:43
proctok-s[WORK]: are you gustavo barbieri?22:44
milhouseyeah: /home/user/.osso_rss_feed_reader22:44
NoOneNon00b alert - Just got a 770 and was wondering if anyone had made - look into making it a Bluetooth Audio Gateway?22:44
proctojust curious, since the handle doesn't match the name22:44
milhouseit's huge22:44
milhouseand i've only got about 6 feeds setup22:44
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milhouse151MB in that directory alone22:44
k-s[WORK]procto: yep22:44
trevarthanNoOneNo: like, audio input -> bluetooth output?22:44
milhousesigh... RSS Feed Reader - what a sack of shit22:44
NoOneNomore like bluetooth input for audio output22:45
trevarthanNoOneNo: ah. what's the application for that?22:45
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jjazzmilhouse: Is there a better one available?22:45
NoOneNobasically to have a bluetooth phone pump out call/voice data to the Nokia for it to pump out audio22:45
proctok-s[WORK]: thanks for that moin python performance tips link. looks like they updated it a lot since the last time I looked.22:45
milhousejjazz: I believe there might be22:45
NoOneNoif you were to mount the 770 as a stereo/gps/bluetooth gateway for a car22:45
proctoI forgot some of those things22:45
trevarthanNoOneNo: so you're only interested in the headset profile, not A2DP?22:46
jjazzmilhouse: If you find it, please do report back.  I'm interested.22:46
proctogoing to optimize some of my python :>22:46
milhousejjazz: can't recall it now, but there are alternatives and they would sturggle to be worse than what Nokia ship22:46
proctoI use as my rss reader22:46
jjazzmilhouse: I'm particularly interested in something that prefetches the pages referred to in feeds that only come with excerpts.22:46
proctoforwards everything to my gmail22:46
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jjazz(I'd like to read those pages on the subway)22:46
proctoyou can create a special gmail account for it22:47
proctosort them into labels22:47
proctoif you want22:47
milhousejjazz: the unfortunate thing is the stock feed reader integrates quite nicely with the home page, but it's so buggy it's effectively useless for any serious use (and now i find it's filling up the whole of my internal memory)22:47
jjazzmilhouse: Yeah, and I've had my feeds disappear on me a couple times too.22:47
trevarthanNoOneNo: there's no current work being done with that right now, but we do have A2DP support in some apps. The Bluetooth ALSA project provides a headset profile software implementation <-> ALSA gateway. You can get a binary package for maemo here:
trevarthanhope that didn't get cut off by the 255 char limit....22:48
milhousewas about to reflash to verify some bugs, i'll avoid adding any new feeds in future.22:48
NoOneNodid it end in _ALAS ?22:48
trevarthanNoOneNo: Yes. so after you've got that installed, it's just a matter of...22:48
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trevarthanconfiguring bluetooth alsa to connect to the phone and play through alsa.22:49
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pupnikwhat native playback rates doe n770 support for audio samples?22:49
NoOneNoI will definately look into it, thanks for the heads-up22:50
pupnikdoes the sound backend do resampling in hardware or software?22:50
trevarthanNoOneNo: you'll probably need either red pill mode or to be root and use `dpkg -i ...` to install those packages. I screwed up the packaging a bit and need to fix it.22:50
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trevarthanthey work fine though.22:50
trevarthanyou just can't click them from the browser and install them directly without turning on red pill mode.22:51
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proctoNecessity is the mother of python scripts22:53
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proctoAnyone have experience using the Maemo SDK under VMWare?22:53
trevarthanit's too bad the n800 doesn't  have a line-in jack. Then I could use it as a stereo A2DP adapter for my desktop while I'm at work.22:55
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proctopupnik: how was your experience?22:55
proctopupnik: does it work?22:55
proctomy USB ports are fried, so I'm going to be developing at home. Then transferring built packages to work22:56
proctowhere I'll be transferring them to the device22:56
proctoor maybe uploading them22:56
proctoand downloading to the device22:56
NoOneNobut you are able to stream into the n800 via ad2p now?  How CPU intensive would the headset profile be though?  it can be at a much lower bit rate22:56
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unique311tired of my computer making a noise everytime someone says N80022:57
NoOneNoalso, do you know if people have had success with this package on the 770, (my 770 is 3 days old so I really don't know to much yet)22:57
pupnikit worked procto, just took up a lot of unneded space for me22:57
proctoah, k22:57
trevarthanNoOneNo: AFAIK, A2DP is a one way outbound profile. I'm not sure if Bluetooth ALSA has the ability to act as an A2DP sink (like a headset does).22:57
trevarthanNoOneNo: not sure if it works on the 770. probably though.22:57
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* k-s[WORK] is away: Gone away for now.22:58
trevarthanNoOneNo: headsetd (the headset profile daemon) is a bit less resource intensive than a2dpd, I think.22:58
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trevarthanbut I've never tried it on the n800, just on linux desktops.22:59
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trevarthanNo open source linux SIP phones for the n800 yet, so I haven't had a reason to try my BT mono headsets.22:59
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Luriamaemo does need a multitouch picture viewer23:13
Luriaso i have an emergency subway map23:14
Luriaor in case i have to go to some godforsaken place in the outer boroughs23:14
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_Monkeyniihau, Shurik23:15
Shuriktupo tapu23:16
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Shurikokay, so who's got 8 gig SD in n800?23:16
ShurikI just got refunded for the destroyed one... so now I'm thinking23:16
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alteregoHas anyone managed to make use of the serial port on the N800 or N770?23:17
Shuriktablet has a serial port?23:18
Shurikwell, other then usb23:18
NoOneNothough they are talking about a bluetooth headset for the 770 they mention that the alsa plugin will not work23:18
NoOneNodo you think its accurate, I'm probably still going to try, just a little disappointing23:18
alteregoI guess that's what the pinout is on the PCB ..23:20
LuriaShurik, which 8gb did it destroy?23:20
alteregoErm, well, the pin contacts. It looks a lot like the Nokia data cable connection style.23:20
Luriaim on the fence between buying a kingston and waiting for the overpriced sandisk offerings23:20
Shurikthink it will make a difference?23:21
Luriai didnt even know they made sdhc cards23:21
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Shurikwell, is great, but I'm thinking where else can I get SD from23:22
Shurikbecause they might not refund me a second card :)23:22
Shurikwhen n800 toasts it23:22
Luriai was going to make an exception and buy in store23:22
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Luriawhat, paying tax+rent surcharge or that there are b&m stores that sell then23:23
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Luriawhat, paying tax+rent surcharge or that there are b&m stores that sell then23:23
trevarthanNoOneNo: that page gives you an excellent explanation for why the n800 doesn't have native headset and a2dp profiles. yes. btsco is the "old" way of doing bluetooth alsa.23:23
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trevarthanNoOneNo: The page they link to:   Is what you're downloading if you use those packages I sent you the link to. I just took that code, compiled it, and packaged it.23:24
Luriais there the possibility of bt headset (with mic) on the horizon?23:24
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trevarthanLuria: application specific? Yes. In general for the n800 (i.e. built in to the OS)? I have no idea, but I'd say probably not.23:25
Luriano, i meant a maemo stack23:26
trevarthanLet's put it this way: I haven't read anything about it in the maemo stack.23:26
trevarthannothing current anyway.23:26
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Luriaalmost as nonsensical as      the unicode support23:26
Luriaanyone know offhand if microb has rtl support?23:27
trevarthanLuria: there is a very good reason why bluetooth audio is difficult on maemo. It's a hardware issue. You have to do it in software, and that requires ALSA unless you write your own code.23:27
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trevarthanThey would either have to switch all apps off of gstreamer and move to alsa, or they would have to rewrite bluetooth-alsa in gstreamer, or provide alsa GST sinks. And they'd need software versions of all the DSP codecs too. It's a big problem.23:28
Luriasilly design, then23:29
Luriabut still silly23:29
trevarthanBut hopefully we'll start seeing BT support directly in applications soon.23:29
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pupnikITOS has an alsa backend - so why do see... configure: error: No linkable libasound was found23:30
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trevarthanpupnik: dunno. you got the dev packages installed?23:30
Luriaif they arent going to give us that, they could at least sell the nokia headphones in the us :-)23:30
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pupniki see nothing alsa or asound in my apt-cache search23:31
trevarthanLuria: yeah. no kidding. :) I lost mine.23:31
pupnikor on the device23:31
Luriatrevarthan, so did i23:31
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trevarthanpupnik: not sure about the old ITOS. I built bluetooth-alsa and mplayer for 2007 though.23:31
Luriawanna know how i got a new pair - not that its going to help you...23:31
Luriaif anything, it will add to your despair23:32
Luriai went to the nokia flagship store23:32
Luriaon 5th avenue23:32
Luriaand asked23:32
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trevarthanI think I remember you telling this story a while back.23:32
Luriathey didnt even have an sku to order it23:32
trevarthanthey just gave you a sample model, right?23:33
Luriafrom the back room for free23:33
Luriai even offered to pay23:33
trevarthanthat sucks. too bad it isn't a more common jack.23:33
Luriafwiw, i did see some euro sites selling it23:33
Luriai actually have to return a set of iphone eshures23:34
Luriathey *sorta* work23:34
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trevarthanMy ipod headphone work fine. Just uses the onboard mic.23:34
Luriawell, yeah, but the point is to have the mic :-/23:35
Luriaand arent you too bright to have an ipod :-p23:35
trevarthandoesn't bug me too much. the one on the n800 works fine.23:35
trevarthanno, I'm starting to think I'm stupid for having an n800. :)23:36
Lurianot liking it?23:36
NoOneNothe headphone jack on the nokia is not a standard 3.5mm jack? is that only true of the N800 or the 770 as well?23:36
trevarthanI could still be using my ipod. It's cheaper, and I don't have to write any code to make it work.23:36
trevarthanNo A2DP on the ipod though. That was one of my selling points for the n800.23:37
LuriaNoOneNo, it is a standard jack plus an extra ring23:37
NoOneNoso pluggin regular headphones does not line the left,right,ground rings up?23:37
NoOneNoplugging in23:37
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trevarthanNoOneNo: no, it does.23:38
trevarthanAnd it's pretty slick. normal headphones work fine, AND the mic on the n800 works at the same time.23:38
NoOneNooh good, sorry could confused by the above...23:38
NoOneNocould = got23:39
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trevarthanNoOneNo: it's just not a common jack. nobody makes replacement headphones *with* the mic for it.23:40
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NoOneNobut for the bluetooth headset profile thats still pretty good, stereo jack connected to car amplifier, internal mic still working for voice23:40
NoOneNothough I would imagine the problem of voice echo cancellation will be a problem23:41
NoOneNounless its already doing that in the DSP23:41
trevarthanor find a plug that fits and wire the mic anywhere you want.23:41
trevarthanI doubt it does that in the dsp.23:41
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trevarthanMy friend was complaining that he could hear himself when I was testing SIP with him on "speaker".23:42
trevarthancomplaint went away when I plugged in my ipod headphones.23:43
NoOneNohmmm, that would suck ... how bad was the echo, un-doable?23:44
disqso, new themes?23:46
disqi napped again btw, what's wrong with me. sleeping 20 hours a day23:46
trevarthanNoOneNo: not sure. he heard it, not me.23:47
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trevarthandisq: no new themes yet. k-s[WORK] and _Handful_ had an excellent conversation with me regarding canola and EFL though.23:48
disqin-channel? i should check logs23:48
disqi just didn't like the Pawn scripting and the unclean macros, but efl looks good to me otherwise23:49
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trevarthandisq: yeah. I pitched a fit. They told me to shut up. It was good stuff.23:49
trevarthanI just don't like rewriting everything.23:49
disqneed a bigger team23:50
trevarthanapparently EFL has a scroll widget of it's own these days. so we could use that.23:50
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metatronah the joys of dinky "free" wifi23:51
trevarthanOh, and k-s[WORK] smacked me on the head and told me how retarded my scroll widget code is and a really obvious way to speed it up and reduce memory usage by a lot.23:51
disqyeah i saw the videos in planet.maemo.org23:51
disqconstructive critisizm, that's good23:52
trevarthanYeah. I should have seen that tweak. I probably would have given time. It's really obvious.23:52
k-s[AWAY_WORK]disq: not that bad... I didn't told him that bad words23:52
trevarthanwhatever. my head's still sore. you made me cry.23:52
metatronoh no23:53
metatrondont cry23:53
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Luria_its not like canola is better :-)23:53
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chenca"Developers May Cry"23:53
trevarthandisq: so we might have a 1.1 release soon with "trev's scroll widget sucks much less now" as the primary reason.23:54
k-s[AWAY_WORK]trevarthan: don't forget to credit me23:54
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disqcould make it 1.0.2 instead23:54
Luria_its the background refresh patch in the deb or only in svn?23:55
disqalso "ooh look we fixed the theme some more, thanks to these guys" type of thing23:55
trevarthank-s[WORK]: yeah, but who do I cite you as? k-s? k-s[WORK]? k-s[AWAY-WORK]? I'm so confused.23:55
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trevarthanLuria: svn only. just committed it today.23:55
Luria_looking forward to the next release23:57
trevarthanyeah, me too. it's gonna not suck as much. :)23:57
Luria_may i ask why the scanner is separate?23:57
k-s[AWAY_WORK]trevarthan: Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri23:57
k-s[AWAY_WORK]trevarthan: that's my name23:57
trevarthanok. I'll be sure to tell everyone you verbally abused me. :)23:58
Luria_and/or doesnt use the native indexing?23:58
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disqby native indexing do you mean metalayer?23:58
trevarthanLuria: separate because most people don't change media that much. and that's how canola did it. (I think)23:58
trevarthannative indexing: Is that possible?23:59
Luriais metalayer the native dialog approach?23:59
disqtrevarthan: canole has a service running in the background looking for mmc mount/unmount signals23:59
Luriayeah, thats it23:59
trevarthanand then canola-conf runs to scan stuff.23:59

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