IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-07-25

sciboypupnik, Dunno what the difference is, it's not the backlight alone determining the visibility.00:00
pupnikhave you ever used a flashlight in the midday sun?00:00
_Shurik__I have to pick it up to look when driving at daytime00:00
_Shurik__I think n800 screen is awsome still00:00
_Shurik__we'll see more sun tolerant solutions in the future00:01
_Shurik__it's a kinda anti beach browsing solutions00:01
sciboypupnik, If you put a reflective surface under the screen with minimal space the sun wouldn't be an issue.00:01
pupnikthe n770 is too bright already.  i am a cave dweller00:01
_Shurik__they meant to say if you're on the sun - do something fun! Get off line damn it00:01
pupnikheh yes "transflective" i think00:01
frob the new browser doesn't even start in scratchbox00:02
frobmaybe timeless is around, but I already abused his patience today :)00:03
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sciboypupnik, Yup that's the one.00:05
_Shurik__so not n800 anyway00:05
_Shurik__n990 will probably have that, and that built in 9mm luger I wanted for self defence00:06
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maddlerdamn! too warm!!! here!!!00:22
maddler40 degrees are too much!00:22
pupnikbtw the sdl sound output of many games is problematic00:22
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* pupnik gains renewed respect for the stability of it200600:27
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maddlereh... I didn't had the time to restore the whole thing after the upgrade... :(00:28
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frobI don't know if it's normal, but my graphical environment scratchbox is damn unstable, even open a "save as" dialogue in maemopad kill the app00:35
infobot_frob meant: I don't know if it's normal, but my graphical environment scratchbox is damn unstable, even open a "save as" dialogue in maemopad kills the app00:35
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_Shurik__that's what I've heard too00:36
frob_Shurik__: what?00:37
_Shurik__that emulation is non existant pretty much00:38
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* frob wants to kill someone00:39
* _Shurik__ hands frob his Makarov00:41
_Shurik__just pull the slide back00:41
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frobfrack, I have to reboot just to change the goddamn target, since sb assumes there are other sessions open, while there AREN'T00:43
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zabi2has anyone here been about to install ssh on the nokia 770?00:49
zabi2has anyone here been able to install ssh on the nokia 770 i mean?00:49
pupnikgot a new emulator00:51
* pupnik plays space quest 300:52
pupnikyeah zabi2 dropbear or ... uh openssh - dropbear here iirc00:52
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maddlerzabi2: yup... both OpenSSH and Dropbear...01:00
user__does anyone know how i can get fbreader to auto-detect my ebooks? they are all in mmc2/ebooks.01:01
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froband now, why on earth do you have to restart a _couple_ of times, with xephyr dying now and then, before actually getting to see the hildon desktop ?01:05
maddleruser__: dunno... check in fbreader docs...01:05
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pupnikfrob, mine is broken here - never get a desktop01:07
frobypeee, xephyr dies again!01:08
frobpupnik: wow, I should count myself *lucky* then? :D01:08
frobpupnik: and this is supposed to be the *stable* sdk01:08
pupniki seem to get "root window unavailible (maybe another wm is running?)"01:09
pupnikwell i'm sure there's a solution01:09
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frobpupnik: one which doesn't involve a mass killing?01:10
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HumanPenguinHi Folks. Is their somewhere on the site that I can set up a scratch project to get information on who may be interested. I am thinking of setting up a HAM Radio project that uses APRS (automatic Position Reporting system) with Maemo Mapper.01:13
pupniki don't know of one.  you can submit to the applicationcatalog wishlist or start a thread in the forums01:15
HumanPenguinI have started a thread on Just wanted somewhere that I could post status etc while I experiment and decide if its possible. I suppose I could set up a Yahoo group or something (Hildon Ham) and try to gether interested folks01:17
_Shurik__so how it going to work>01:18
maddlerHumanPenguin: you could have a blog on :)01:18
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HumanPenguinAPRS is a HAM protocol you connect a PC to a RADIO and a GPS and send you location over a set channel. You also listen to other stations and print thier location on a map. Also has messageing system etc built into the protocol. explains the protocol. How it would work TBC01:20
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HumanPenguinWell in most situs we conect a TNC (like a radio modem and send signals that way. But we have several apps out their that comunicate via a sound card doing the TNC job in software. So I am thinking if I convert a Bluetooth Headset and mount it to my radio I can then communicate via bluetooth to the radio just translating the data into sound.01:22
_Shurik__and what do you use ham radio for?01:22
pupnikanybody with an n800 want to test freesci? (sierra game interpreter)01:22
_Shurik__I mean, I know, but like how often and why?01:22
DaniloCesarpupnik, Ok01:23
DaniloCesarDo you have a deb package of it?01:23
pupnikno, needs to be started from terminal01:23
DaniloCesarNo problem...01:23
DaniloCesarpython or C?01:24
DaniloCesarpupnik, send me....01:24
HumanPenguinIn this case the radio is used to pass location and message info among other hams in the area. We have a reapeater network that covers most of the metro areas in the US. we use APRS a lot for search and rescu type stuff. And just to play looking at folks location on maps as we drive etc. It is genrally done on 146MHZ so line of sight only.01:24
_Shurik__I see01:25
HumanPenguinHam is pretty popular in the US. ~700k users01:26
frobcould it be used to *spy* on people? :D01:26
_Shurik__My friend is HAM-ster (?) :)01:26
_Shurik__just could never figure out is that something I'm interested in :)01:26
frobI mean, aprs transmitter in the car, receiver with maemo mapper on the other side, very sci-fi esque :D01:27
_Shurik__well, he was untill his transiver got stolen01:27
_Shurik__basically 101 reasons not to pay attention to the road01:27
frobuh, who the hell would steal a ham radio?01:27
_Shurik__well, it looks expensive01:28
HumanPenguinNods u need to be a bit of a nerd to use it. As for spying Not leagally :o) given that you need a radio $100+ and PC of some form $150 + a GPS $50 all used its a dard expensive bug. But I have it on my car and technically if the car was stolen itsa a pricy lojack01:28
_Shurik__it was one of those submersible Yaesu radios01:28
_Shurik__350-400 bucks or so01:29
HumanPenguinI have that for this but I have a mobile in the car 8900 the radio I am planning to use for this is about $350 new but I have a used one that would work cost me $8001:29
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_Shurik__I just wouldn't know what to talk about01:30
_Shurik__Um.. so you're driving? Me too01:30
_Shurik__and you can't copy/paste01:30
HumanPenguinFrob: Steal the car not the radio the equipment is hidden in the trunk.01:31
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HumanPenguinfrob: PS used ham radios sell well if you know who to sell them to. of couse selling them without a licence can be hard01:32
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HumanPenguinfrob: go look few mins looking at the prices will tell you why they might get stolen. Unfortunaly 700k users dosent help with the supply and damand priceing equation ;o(01:37
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laskoI've got a question maybe someone could answer. I'm looking for an IAX client for the Nokia 770.. is there one out there?01:43
HumanPenguinfrob again: cooler way of spying. This is open data and we have repeaters that sync it to the internet. This link points to a friend of mine driving up the GA400 as we speak01:44
pupniklasko i don't know - if you see a GTK based iaxclient, it might be fairly easy to port...
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laskoHaven't had much experience with that.. kinda hoped someone already did it.. Ok thanks I'm off to try some porting.01:46
frobHumanPenguin: wow01:48
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HumanPenguinFrob: as I say the HAM community has reapeaters all over the place. the set up is such that even though most HTs can only handle 5w the repeater network will transmit it all over a city and the internet then syncs from city to city.01:51
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HumanPenguinOK I created a Yahoo group [HildonHam ยท N800 HAM Radio] Ill post my experiments there02:05
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_Shurik__more like standing up 400 :)02:17
_Shurik__it's a mess right now02:17
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HumanPenguinYou live in the Atlanta Area ?02:19
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fro1does anybody have doxygen packages for amel ?02:37
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NeoStriderhello folks03:25
NeoStrideranybody home?03:27
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NeoStriderhello pupnik03:28
pupnikwhas is new NeoStrider03:28
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NeoStridermy hype...its always like new =-P03:29
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raku2Can anyone else login and edit pages on the Maemo wiki?03:52
raku2I was trying to edit but can't login even though I have an account03:53
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pupnikraku2: several people have login problems on maemo.org03:54
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jpt9has anyone ported elinks to maemo?  it's much better than links.03:55
pupnikwow, my app crashed the 770 and created a strange LCD display mode that slowly faded to white, whith a grey bar slowly moving down the screen drawing junk on the right hand side03:55
jpt9well, it isn't exactly porting; more like cross-compiling03:55
pupnik!google elinks+maemo ?03:56
jpt9doesn't seem like it...03:57
pupnikelinks: dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libgnutls-dev libgpmg1-dev liblua50-dev liblualib50-dev libperl-dev smbclient03:57
jpt9okay how about recompiling links with graphics support :-)03:58
jpt9(like the -g option)03:58
pupnikyeah a lightweight browser with gfx would be nice03:59
jpt9that would be like the fastest graphical browser on the n770 :-)03:59
jpt9there's already links...03:59
jpt9shouldn't be too hard to recompile it and change one option (well, there are probably dependencies for libraries for all the gfx formats...)04:00
raku2pupnik: thanks.04:00
pupniklinks: debian/changelog:  * This is not the 2.xx client. No graphics or ECMA[java]script.04:01
pupnikaah links204:01
jpt9oh... sorry.04:01
jpt9didn't realize that.04:01
jpt9what do you think?04:02
pupnikmight have a go at it04:02
jpt9considering the speed (or lack thereof) of opera, you would have tons of adoring fans :-D04:03
pupnikwondering whether to leave out javascript04:03
jpt9good question.04:04
jpt9if you can turn it off in the links preferences, and it doesn't make it too big, i'd say keep it (unless it causes tons of problems)04:04
pupnikit's disabled by default04:06
jpt9try it without it first.04:06
pupnikyeah, trying to figure out why the mouse support isn't working04:07
jpt9what's wrong?04:08
pupnikneed to build libgpmg1-dev, i think04:09
pupnikok got it installed04:13
pupniksession.o: In function `goto_url_f':session.c:(.text+0xc8ac): undefined reference to `jsint_execute_seq'04:14
jpt9it doesn't work, then?04:14
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pupnikok fixed that04:15
jpt9it works?04:16
jpt9have you tried links -g yet?04:16
jpt9just so you know, google seems to crash links on my ibook when it's in graphics mode.04:18
pupnikthe mouse/stylus support might not be so easy - lots of problems with gpm04:20
jpt9apparently it does subpixel antialiasing...04:20
jpt9even if the stylus doesn't work, it'll still be useful.04:21
pupniktrying to hack it in..04:21
pupnikworks, with mouse and graphics :P04:22
jpt9can you post a .deb?04:22
pupnikit doesn't do fullscreen, the fonts are ugly, and it's not hildonized yet04:24
pupnikso bluetooth keyboard only04:24
pupnikbut it's not half bad04:24
* jpt9 doesn't have a bluetooth keyboard...04:24
jpt9how much work does it take to hildonize an app?  and what do the fonts look like?04:25
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pupnikwell it's a bold fat serif on a couple of sites that shouldn't have em04:26
pupnikbut it's doing good with heise.de04:26
jpt9are they antialiased?04:26
jpt9(not that it's really possible to tell... hit esc > options > video options to check)04:27
pupnikis the 770 RGB or BGR?04:27
jpt9not sure...04:27
jpt9try RGB.04:27
jpt9is it beautiful?04:28
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* fro1 grubles for having to compile avahi by himself04:31
pupnikit's very nice jpt904:32
pupnikuses 0% cpu and 13% of memory04:32
jpt9links2 is awesome.04:32
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SeRiwhat is links2?04:35
_Monkeyrumour has it links2 is awesome04:35
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pupniki had my stylus in my mouth and had to sneeze04:35
pupniknow i can't find my stylus04:35
jpt9it's a version of links that can do graphics using X :-)04:35
SeRiah is just links04:35
SeRibut 2nd version?!?04:35
jpt9possibly the fastest graphical browser on earth!04:35
jpt9great for n770s :-)04:35
disqguadec 2008 in istanbul? best news i've heard this week!04:38
fro1istanbul? wtf?04:40
fro1well, it's.. unusual04:41
disqinternational open source gatherings don't usually happen here, yeah.04:42
fro1heeeeeeelp I need avahi on scratchbox!!!04:42
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jpt9pupnik: can you send me a copy to try (even if you haven't hildonized it yet)?  as a temporary measure, i'm running x11vnc on the n770 so I can use my ibook as a keyboard :-)04:44
disqlooking for SDL gurus04:46
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pupnikam i the only person who has a digital camera that refuses to focus on the 770 screen?04:53
jpt9lemme go try mine...04:53
pupnikjpt9: it wouldn't run on your system04:53
disqi could try with my dslr04:53
jpt9what do you mean?04:53
jpt9it's running 2007HE.04:53
pupnikwell the gpm package won't install04:54
pupnikyou could copy the libraries over manually04:54
jpt9where would i put them?04:54
jpt9how much work does it take to hildonize an app?04:55
pupnikoh and for keyboard/mouse on the 770 i usually run synergy when i'm at my desk04:55
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pupniki wouldn't try to hildonize elinks04:56
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jpt9i thought this was links2?04:56
pupniksorry links204:56
jpt9why not?04:56
pupnikit would be like rewriting a lot of it04:57
* jpt9 thought it would just be adding a bit of code to handle the keyboard, etc...04:57
pupnikunfortunately no04:57
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* frob ponders the best (and FASTEST) way to port a package from debian to maemo04:58
frobsuggestions ?04:58
pupnikgot money?04:58
jpt9well, i have money, but no way to transfer it to other people...04:58
pupnikno it's in response to frob04:58
froband I don't have money, or time04:58
pupnikjpt9: dillo uses gtk1.2 - it'd be easier to port that to hildon04:58
jpt9that'd be awesome too :-)04:59
frobactually it's a damn boring process04:59
frobmaybe there's an 'automated' way to pull and build deps ?04:59
* jpt9 thinks pupnik should squeeze all his uber-leet maemo porting/compiling skills into an AI for a with a whiz-bang web interface :-)04:59
SeRiI am starting to become a Nokia freak04:59
* SeRi is scared.....05:00
jpt9we're all nokia freaks here :-)05:00
frobnot me05:00
pupnikjpt9: how about a keyboard that works with all linux apps, not just the hildonized ones?05:00
jpt9what about one?05:00
frobI'm freaking out, actually05:00
frobbecause I need avahi05:00
froband INdT ported it05:01
pupnikjpt9: i'd like to make one, but i don't know how i'd pull it up05:01
SeRiahhh avahi deamon.... avahi satan.... same shit :P05:01
jpt9pupnik: mind control :-)05:01
jpt9status bar icon!05:01
jpt9what do you think?05:01
pupnikyeah that'd proly do it05:01
jpt9wouldn't be able to use full screen, but it'd work.05:01
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SeRiheheheh iPhone keyboard on the N80005:02
SeRinot bad05:02
SeRiLoks ok05:03
pupniklinks2 rules!05:03
disqi couldn't get it to run (the indt keyboard)05:06
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jpt9pupnik: how about messagease <> or edgewrite <>?05:06
Ginmananyone know of a good image viewer?05:06
fro1on top of it, my connection just dies05:06
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SeRiMirage is what I use it can even resize :)05:07
fro1did I miss anything ?05:07
Ginmanis there a way in mirage to load a folder and scroll through it?05:07
jpt9nokia released the n75.05:07
jpt9sorry, n785.05:07
SeRiYes Ginman05:07
jpt9the power of an n800 in the decent case of the n770.05:07
Ginmanhow so, SeRi?05:08
pupnikjpt9 you mean http:/ ?05:08
SeRiYou can load the folder within the application and scroll thu the pics05:08
* jpt9 wants one.05:08
jpt9i feel sorry for all the n800 owners. when i'm on the T, I stick my charliecard in between the n770 and the case.05:09
jpt9quite useful.05:09
jpt9what's the bottom-most round thingy on the right?05:09
SeRimy nuts?05:09
Ginmanit doesnt let me select a folder when i try to open something, SeRi05:09
SeRiJJ :P05:09
pupnikjpt9: a little camera05:10
Ginmanoh shit, im a dumbass05:10
jpt9how about a gooseneck camera :-)05:10
SeRiYou said it I didnt :)05:10
pupnikprobably a pop-out camera that could rotate forward or back would be best05:10
pupniklet you use it as webcam or as a photo device05:10
pupniknotice that the dpad is larger, with a smaller enter button in the middle05:11
Ginmanok, last question, is there a way to change the view to be horizontal?05:12
SeRiMhhhhhhhhhhh good question05:12
Ginmanbesides rotating all the pictures05:12
SeRiNot sure05:12
pupnikis that the slick image viewer with animated zoom?05:13
SeRiYou can rotate, resize, scale, crop, etc...05:13
jpt9what image viewer is this?!05:13
SeRiIs what I been using :)05:13
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Ginmanmaybe there is some e-book reader that can do jpg and png and rotate the view?05:14
zabinDoes anyone know how to get ssh on a nokia 770?05:14
SeRiapt-get install ssh05:14
zabini dont have a way to get to apt-get do i?05:14
SeRifro xterm with root privilages05:14
SeRiHow do I know?!? did you installed it?05:15
SeRiYou need osso-xterm05:15
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SeRiand becomeroot packege05:15
Ginmantheres a tutorial somewhere on the site05:15
zabinSeRi: do you have a nokia 770?05:15
zabinwhen i go to install xterm it says im missing librarys05:16
SeRiYes I have a 770 and a 80005:16
zabinhildon-lsbs0 libfontconfig1 libfreetype6 libgconf2 libosso105:16
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SeRiIf you go to ITT I wrote a tutorial about this step by step05:17
zabinSeRi: i have to be logged in?05:18
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SeRijust go to the 770 forum05:18
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unique311hello all05:19
SeRiWAZ UP!!!!!!!!!!!05:19
unique311different day, same shit..05:19
SeRiI hear you!05:19
unique311been hacking away at myspace code05:19
SeRiahhhh nice nice....05:19
unique311this looks good?05:20
zabinSeRi: where is this forum?05:20
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SeRiunique not bad05:21
SeRibut it has some wierd message everywhere!05:21
SeRiok I brb05:22
zabinSeRi: whats the title of the article?05:22
pupnikhmm link dead?05:23
jpt9gimme a sec....05:23
jpt9doesn't seem to be working, though...05:23
unique311i link to his messed up .jpg05:24
jpt9 can't connect to penguinbait.com05:24
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SeRiany new apps out there?05:25
SeRianything interesting?05:25
pupnikok then i'll host it jpt9 gimme a minute05:25
jpt9okay.  thanks.05:25
unique311well not new05:26
zabinSeRi: do you think you could send me a link to that article i couldnt find it on the 770 forum05:26
unique311update posted..but i might be late on the find05:26
SeRiis a sticky!05:26
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fro1sometimes I have uninstallable packages, but wgetting them from and dpkg -installing works05:32
fro1and my sources.list is clean05:32
fro1and I have updated05:32
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pupnikjpt9 links2 maemo for N770 / 800 is here
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Ginmanwhat is links2?06:00
_Monkeyit has been said that links2 is awesome.06:00
pupnik_Monkey forget links206:01
_Monkeypupnik: I forgot links206:01
pupnik_Monkey links2 is a lightweight graphical web browser (non-hildon)
_MonkeyOK, pupnik.06:01
disqwhat is kagu?06:03
_Monkeykagu is a complete rewrite of ukmp with a strong focus on object oriented design and a2dp support. You can find it here:
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pupnikneeeeaaarwwooow  BOOM!  crash...06:19
disqk, night06:21
pupnikcu disq06:23
fro1even the glib2 version in bora is *ancient*06:29
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derfThey're only 6 releases behind.06:34
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derfI mean, really, what's 3 years among friends?06:36
Agogoguys,how do i increase my internal memory? not including sd cards...for n80006:37
SeRifunny links2 is allready compile by sombody else06:40
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SeRiwaz up agogo06:45
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wahezI get GPG errors (BADSIG) when I try to update my N800. I just got my N800 and I didn't add any repositories. Is there something wrong with the repositories?06:46
Ginmanis there a port of vent available for the 770? because that would just be awesome06:48
SeRiFick I just change my hostname in my tablet and everything went to shit06:50
SeRiwaz up with my n80006:52
SeRiis acting stupid06:52
Ginmanyeah, ventrilo06:52
SeRinope no port as of yet06:53
derfYeah, don't change the hostname.06:53
Ginmanman, someone should get to work on that06:54
derfI bricked the thing 3 or 4 times before I convinced myself that really wasn't a good idea.06:54
pupnikSeRi: got a link to it?06:54
SeRito what?06:55
pupnikyeah penguinbait's links to it were dead06:56
SeRiwell those are alive06:56
SeRifuck and I dont remember my hostname06:57
SeRinow this sucks big donkey ass balls!06:57
SeRiwell ill be damn I remember06:58
SeRiMhhh I think I know why we can not change the host name06:58
pupnikwoot xkbd!06:59
SeRiNice! I have a project06:59
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SeRiYeap is also in ITT06:59
SeRisome body has a script for it06:59
SeRiwow I think I did hose my N80007:02
pupnikwow 856 posts SeRi  :)07:04
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SeRiTYea :)07:11
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pupnikgreets zodttd07:14
zodttdhi :)07:14
pupnikSeRi: do you see how to add that on/off XKBD with load-applet-run?07:15
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zodttdI finally get some games running really well with psx4gp2x, and now I'm starting to lose support from gp32x it seems. Today build got a lot of complaints, yet Abe's Oddysee is running so well. :(07:15
zodttd(plus just about everything else, I changed the image handler for ISO type support)07:16
SeRiIs a script you need load applet run only works for N77007:17
* pupnik has an original oddworld psx cd - never played07:17
zodttdHeh I have it somewhere too, all dirty and covered with dust :P07:17
pupnikSeRi: on it2007he installing load-appliet run generates conflict "trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/hildon-status-bar/', which is also in package load-applet"07:18
SeRiI know they havent port it the bastard to OS2007 :)07:19
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pupnikzodttd: so i just dd the cdrom to .iso and play that?07:20
pupnikSeRi: the xkbd runs on top of sdl fullscreen which is very useful07:21
zodttdpupnik: It used to be just add an .iso. But since iso formats can differ, I switched to RAW .bin format and people are confused :P07:22
zodttdThey basically just need to convert the .iso to .bin with IsoBuster and it will work, but lots of people have bad images or are just plain confused. :(07:23
pupnikok i get it07:23
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pupnikSeRi: i'd be nice if that xkbd could be minimized to a small square at the edge of screen07:25
SeRiahhhh hildonized07:25
pupnikor if you could toggle it with a selection in the home button menu07:26
pupnikno it wouldn't need to be hildonized07:26
pupnikjust make a 'minimize' button to the right of the ctrl button07:26
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pupnikand when you click on the minized window it goes to fullsize07:26
SeRiyou should post it in the actual thread07:27
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raku2I had a question about creating fat32 partitions on an MMC card for my 77007:30
raku2does anyone know the partition type to pass to sfdisk?07:30
pupnik"mount" tells me /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc1 type vfat07:31
SeRiyeap is vfat but to fdisk you do07:31
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SeRisfdisk -uM /dev/mmcblk007:32
SeRi1500 is the size07:32
SeRiin MB07:32
raku2yeah, I know I can make it vfat (type 6) but I want to make it fat32, because of the cluster size thing07:33
SeRi6 is for vfat07:33
SeRiare you going to dual boot?07:33
raku2was hoping to boot from a 2nd partition (ext2)07:34
raku2i wanted to make it fat32 because I plan on having a bunch of map tiles, each of which is a small file.07:35
raku2and with vfat, the cluster size is 4K i think...07:36
raku2(on a 1.5GB partition)07:36
SeRigive me a sec wife07:37
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raku2Yeah man, specifying the '-uM' option is awesome.  Much easier to work in MiB than cylinders.  Also makes the lines shorter and not wrap on the 770 display.07:41
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SeRiyeap.... sorry wife is talking to me....07:44
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SeRiok back...07:53
raku2no worries.  After some research, I'm not sure i'm going to bother.07:53
raku2I thought there might be some benefits of Fat32, but I think those were incorrect assumptions07:54
SeRiany ways in fat32 you use 3207:55
raku2for the partition type?07:55
SeRiI was going to ask you if you wjee sure07:55
SeRiit actually kills your cards life span07:56
raku2And from my searching, the type I came up with was '0b'07:57
SeRito what I understands the reads and writes are more intensive... are sd cards life cicles are determin on how many r/w07:57
SeRiwell could be I never got in to it to be 100% sure07:58
SeRiagain thats not my area of expertise that would be penguinbait07:58
ptrktnwould anybody know for sure if the mediaplayer inthe new n800 firmware supports multibyte chars?08:01
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raku2cool.  No worries.  Thanks for your help. sfdisk is definitely easier (especially to document) with -uM08:04
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inzI read on a newspaper that a 770 appears in Die Hard 4.0, does anyone know of this?09:36
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gigaReed Richards uses a N770 in silver surfer10:26
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timelessyeah, i have a printed picture of that outside my office10:26
timelessstill need to see the movie10:26
timelessfwiw, it's the Nokia 770. Nokia marketting droids added the n for the N80010:27
Gigabitesbah so what10:27
Gigabitesit's still not as cool or know as their other N series10:28
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tigertkonttori: whoa10:41
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konttoritigert: Good to see you again.10:41
tigertstill on vacation for 2 weeks10:41
konttoriahh... good for you!10:41
tigertwas in guadec meanwhile10:41
konttoriplanning of doing any flying while on vacation?10:42
tigertinstalling ukmp :)10:42
tigertkonttori: perhaps. want to come along?10:42
tigertweather permitting of course10:42
konttoriSounds great! Would be honored.10:42
tigertwtf is _Monkey?10:42
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tigertI dont like these automatic privmsg's if I say "weather"10:43
JaffaMorning all10:43
tigertweather EFHF10:43
pelloih, anyone have a nokia n800 patched with the last firmware and have a ver very instability connection with FON ap ?10:43
tigertpello: is the ap far?10:44
tigertgo a bit farther?10:44
pelloit works really good before the firmware upgrade10:44
pelloit doesn't works better10:46
pellogtalk can't sync10:46
tigertdo other access points work ok?10:47
* tigert wonders if fon uses some specific auth scheme that causes problems?10:47
tigertfile a bug in any case?10:47
pellohah don't worry it finally works10:48
* pello waked up ten minutes ago10:49
konttoritigert: We were talking yesterday with Roope about the kinetic scrolling and he was telling that you and him have been pushing it for the device (and browser) for some time now.10:49
* pello slaps himself10:49
tigertpello: :)10:49
tigertwhat was the problem?10:49
konttoriI hope you will get it to be implemented to the browser asap10:49
pelloi forgot that i was connected on the public ssid10:49
tigertkonttori: yeah, it makes a lot of sense. of course there is an issue with how the interaction currently works with lists10:49
tigertpello: :)10:49
pelloand have forget to authenticate me on fon portal10:49
tigertkonttori: particularly it becomes very complex with multiple selections etc10:50
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konttoritigert: Well, how about just put the list selection as modal if user clicks on a list10:50
tigertkonttori: ie, lots of timing tuneups etc to make it work sensibly10:50
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tigertkonttori: what do you mean?10:50
timelesskontorri: i'm confused10:51
konttoriput the select list widget to force scroll lock on, put the select list to go to the roughly the middle of the screen and only allow the user to escape by clicking outside the select box or by selecting an item10:51
timelessthe browser is open sources10:51
timelessbut engineering effort is most certainly not assigned to whatever whims externals have10:52
timelessmostly it's constrained to performance10:52
timelesshow can you expect anything to happen ASAP10:52
tigerttimeless: your attitude helps little, please10:52
tigertwe try to fix things inside too10:52
timelessand how can talking to roope (a ui designer) have any influence?10:52
tigertlets not get into this now10:52
* timelyx shrugs10:54
timelyxit's bad enough having actual managers making unreasonable demands10:54
timelyxand we have more than enough of them10:54
timelyxkonttori: have you played with firefox/seamonkey's autoscroll?10:55
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timelyxwould its scrolling behavior be relatively sufficient for your needs?10:55
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timelyxif so, adapting that to the browser would be considerably easier than trying to implement something else10:55
timelyxand it's probably something you yourself could do10:55
tigertxan had something implemented in the gtk scroll widget10:56
tigertit worked reasonably well too10:56
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tigertbut the problem is to make it work really well and nicely on all cases10:56
timelyxtoo bad the code isn't sharable :)10:56
tigertit might well be10:56
timelyxbtw, what do you guys expect to have happen for google maps?10:56
konttoritimelyx: never.  Is it good?10:56
tigertdunno where it is, but it was not finished and polished anyway10:56
timelyxor google spreadsheets?10:56
timelyxkonttori: please play with it10:56
konttoriwhere can I test it out?10:57
timelyxtigert: gtk code isn't sharable to a gecko renderer10:57
tigertwhat I want to avoid is cases like the mozilla browser, with nice stuff, but a LOT of small interaction issues here and there10:57
timelyxkonttori: it's mostly just part of seamonkey, not really sure how it works in firefox10:57
timelyxjust trigger middle mouse10:57
tigertthings need to be polished and consistent10:57
* timelyx nods10:57
timelyxpersonally i don't want to spend time implementing any *more* things that break google web apps10:58
timelyxand i don't want to be more inconsistent with the rest of the maemo platform10:58
timelyxwe already have both of those10:58
timelyx(even from before gecko)10:58
timelyxi think you're basically saying you don't like panning10:58
timelyxwhich is good, because i don't like it either10:58
timelyxhowever, i suspect your replacement breaks google maps and friends at least as badly10:58
tigertno no10:58
timelyxwhich doesn't help me10:58
tigertI like panning10:58
timelyxypu = konttori10:59
tigertah :)10:59
timelyxanyway, somewhere i have a doc that lists all the input modes for browsers10:59
timelyxit's something like 1010:59
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timelyxignore the picture at the bottom, i use google docs as a pastebin :)11:01
bokubobHas anyone here used pidgin with a yahoo japan account?11:01
konttoriI like panning as well, but I would love it to be accelerated based on speed of movement of the finger. And kinetic scrolling does that quite well.11:01
timelyxthe problem is that each different feature from either a desktop browser or a previous internet tablet becomes something users expect to be able to use11:01
timelyxkonttori: do you have a problem with speed based on tapping on a scrollbar and how far you are from the thumb?11:02
timelyxanything that involves touching the content area of a web browser is a disaster11:03
tigerttimelyx: yeah, that is what I mean with the complexity11:03
timelyxand i really really don't need more of them11:03
timelyxit's bad enough that i have the 9 or so i've listed11:03
tigerttimelyx: and it is a disaster if things are not well thought out - which takes time and also effort from coders to get everything right11:03
timelyxtigert: yep11:03
tigert"almost right" is not enough11:03
timelyxlike all the flubs from 77011:03
tigertwhich takes lots of co-operated effort11:03
timelyxthe password manager is another good example11:03
tigertwell, there are lots of good examples :)11:04
konttoriTrue enough. But as there is already the scrolling by dragging finger (panning), it would ge no worse by adding it to be kinetic.11:04
timelyxwe managed to break opera's password manager ...11:04
timelyxkonttori: um11:04
timelyxany change can be worse11:04
timelyxit's engineering time, and time to add new bugs11:04
tigertits hard to say without testing11:04
timelyxand new interaction conflicts11:04
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timelyxand it's time lost from doing whatever else11:04
timelyxnote: i'm not always opposed to adding features11:04
timelyxhowever, i have more than enough headaches at the moment11:04
timelyxand input modality, while something i want to fix, is not something i need more complexity in before i fix it11:05
konttoriYou know, at the moment it scrolls only by the amount you pand with your finger. With kinetic it would scroll that much AND if speed given at the end of scroll, by the amount of speed versus drag (as in the opposing force)11:05
timelyxpersonally, i think panning was stupid11:05
timelyxand regret not having been able to squash the proposal before the 770 shipped11:05
timelyxbut i didn't work for Nokia then11:06
timelyxit's stupid partly for the reasons you describe it as inferior11:06
timelyxpartly because it wasn't implemented globally for the whole system (a tigert point i believe)11:06
konttoriI think that the most convenient way of scrolling is by using the dpad middle button for page down, but that's just me.11:06
timelyxand partly because it was guaranteed to eventually break web apps (my point)11:06
timelyxyeah, that's the biggest reason that panning made absolutely no sense11:07
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tigerttimelyx: panning is awesome, but it should be everywhere11:07
tigertand this makes other restrictions then11:07
tigertits all a game of tradeoffs and which are most important11:07
timelyx"ooh, i can use my finger to scroll, even though there's a perfectly good arrow available"11:07
AD-N770good morning11:07
tigertlike, do we really need multiple selection everywhere?11:07
konttoriwhat arrow?11:07
tigerttimelyx: the arrow sucks11:07
timelyxkonttori: the "dpad", hardware keys11:07
tigerttimelyx: I use panning all the time11:08
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konttoriahh... but then dpad should be configured for page up page down events.11:08
tigertits hard to say what is important unless you test with a small sample of users and see what really works11:08
timelyxtigert: do we have pressure sensing for the hardware arrows?11:08
konttoricurrently it's so slow to use that there's no point in using it11:08
timelyxi know we have something for home/escape11:08
tigerttimelyx: pressure sensing?11:08
timelyxkonttori: i suspect we could get pagedown for "long press"11:08
timelyxnot quite sure it'd do the right thing, it'd definitely have to be tuned11:09
konttoribut then it would easily scroll too much.11:09
tigertits all about finding a sensible set, that works for 90% of cases11:09
tigerttuning it correctly11:09
tigertand sorry, forgetting about the 10% that would be another 100% of more work11:09
timelyx5% would be 100% more work, the last 5% will be another 200% at least11:10
tigertsince complexity = more code = more bugs to fix = harder interactions and just more complex experience11:10
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tigertbut lets see11:10
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timelyxkonttori: personally, i'd rather implement something like the n9511:10
tigertI am on vacation still :)11:10
timelyxwhere you got a popup small preview of the document11:10
timelyxand you can drag around that11:10
timelyxare you familiar w/ googlemap's small map insert?11:11
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timelyxiirc it's hidden on the n800 by default11:11
timelyxanyway, try it on a desktop11:11
bokubobTwo finger scrolling?11:11
konttoritimelyx: That is only a suplementary scrolling method. You would need normal panning / scrolling anyway11:12
timelyxit lets you drag around the section of the whole that you want to see11:12
konttoribokubob: n800 doesn't detect two fingers.11:12
timelyxkonttori: i can't afford anything that interacts with interacting with the full web screen11:12
bokubobOk, thanks.11:12
konttorihow about letting the panning happen only when the dpad middle is pressed?11:13
konttorior would that be too difficult for people?11:13
timelyxi'd love too, but the button is used to open the fkb, select items, focus items, and trigger links11:13
timelyxi blame nokia for not at least having as few buttons as the gameboy11:13
timelyxa,b,select,start. hello 198811:13
timelyxi think probably it'd be triggered by a long press on one of the other directional arrows11:14
timelyx(especially if i can kill spatial navigation)11:14
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timelyxprobably it'll be something like <left> triggers an overview11:15
timelyx<right> triggers a focus11:15
timelyx<top> unfocuses11:15
tigertkonttori: several approaches probably would work11:16
konttoriI fail to see the point of an overview in a device with 800x480 screen11:16
konttoribut that's just me11:16
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timelyxkonttori: ever use planets11:16
tigertbut its a matter of testing and also trying to find one that people find11:16
timelyxwell, planets small enough *not* to crash the browser...11:16
tigerttimelyx: overview is not really needed if scrolling works nicely11:16
tigertnow the mozilla is crashing all the time on my n80011:16
tigertI think its the fricken youtube videos :)11:17
tigertsince it also crashes on urho's blog page directly11:17
timelyxtigert: can you make that page work well?11:17
tigerttimelyx: well. that page is a lot of scrolling also on desktop11:17
konttoriJust disable the flash plugin ;)11:18
konttoriHey, did you guys have a look at how archos handles flash movies?11:18
timelyxtigert: yes, i know11:18
timelyxthe point is that (or something kinda smaller) is the problem for overview11:18
timelyxfind the picture which has arrows that are not contained inside the lines11:19
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timelyxor better, find the hamster wheel11:19
timelyxkonttori: when you use acceleration, or constant scrolling11:20
timelyxwhat are you actually doing?11:20
timelyxand how fast can you read? and does it depend on the kind of content?11:20
timelyxfrom my perspective, the biggest problem the browser has is that people had problems, and came up with ideas, but they didn't explain the problem they were trying to solve11:21
timelyxwhich makes it very hard to offer an alternate solution11:21
konttoriNo, accelerated scrolling is only a means of moving large portion of the page on one go.11:21
timelyxok, so clearly, for that problem, it'd be fine to use an overview11:21
konttoriLike move to the top of the page after reading the article.11:21
* timelyx waits11:22
konttoriwell, overview moves you completely away from the page. And it needs the whole page to be rendered completely.11:22
timelyxgecko has to render the whole page anyway11:22
timelyxand i don't know whatyou mean by away11:22
tigerttimelyx: yeah, this "we want this ui, and here's why" is what needs to improve11:23
timelyxgecko is fully capable of painting it w/ alpha over the content you see11:23
tigerttimelyx: but it also needs co-operation from you guys11:23
timelyxtigert: i'll pay people to explain their reasons11:23
tigertit is very important11:23
tigertbut it is also very important to listen when someone does11:23
_Monkeyokay, tigert.11:23
timelyxkonttori: got a paypal account? i'll give you 1usd from tomorrow's birthday money as a reward for explaining why you wanted acceleration11:23
tigertso it doesnt end up as insane bicycle shed issue11:24
timelyxsomeday someone will have to explain bike shed to me11:24
tigert_Monkey: can you make the privmsgs optional?11:24
_Monkeytigert: i don't know11:24
timelyx_Monkey: help11:24
tigertwhy do we have a bot here anyway?11:24
timelyxto annoy us? :)11:24
konttoritimelyx: Acceleration is a nice way of navigating around the content of the page.  really hate the fat that I have to keep pushing the pan again and again when I try to move to the top of the page or to the interesting part of an article.11:25
konttoriI'm not saying that it's the only way, it just happens to be a very cool looking way of approaching the problem11:25
tigerttimelyx: its also, just like coding more takes time, explaining does that also11:26
konttoriAcceleration is a minor modification the current panning that improves the functionality of the current pan.11:26
timelyxkonttori: tigert / my point here is that it's important that everyone know what the underlying problem is11:26
tigertso its not something people have the time to do a lot11:26
tigertbut I agree sharing the knowledge is important11:26
timelyxkonttori: here, my premise is that i want to remove panning11:27
timelyxit breaks more and more sites11:27
timelyx90% of the page is both scrollable and dragable11:27
konttoriYeah, and if that is the case with nokia, then it's just fine by me. But if panning is there, then it would benefit from kinetic.11:27
timelyxnote: i'm almost never going to speak for nokia11:27
timelyxand it's fairly safe to assume i'll never speak for nokia here11:28
tigertlets just say the issue is complex11:28
konttoriBut if panning is removed, then the arrow keys need to be modified by default for page up / page down kind of behaviour.11:28
tigertand ajax sites are just one part of this11:28
konttoriOr the scoll bar needs to take 3 times more width so that it would be usable by thumb as well.11:28
timelyxkonttori: basically, given the fact that panning causes a lot of pain and is something i'd rather remove instead of improve, the last thing i want to do is modify its impl11:28
tigertit also doesnt help that google documents is very cpu hog11:28
timelyxtigert: wfm on my 1.6ghz mac :)11:29
timelyxare you using a computer from 1997? :)11:29
timelyxoh, you probably are..11:29
timelyxkonttori: but yes, changing the scrollbar size seems to me to be something we should seriously consider11:30
timelyxalthough, from internal bits, i think they might change the scrollbar to be totally different11:30
tigertone from 2006 with an ARM11:30
timelyxnot sure11:30
konttoriyeah, but if you do that, then you need to drop off the left side navi bar completely.11:30
timelyxtigert: class equivalence of 199711:30
tigertbut it is slow even on my laptop11:31
konttoriBecause when you do that, scroll bar will take about as much space as the left navi bar and there's like no space left for the app.11:31
timelyxgiven i had a p2/450 in 199811:31
konttoriand if you widen the scroll bar in one place, it'll have to be widened every other place as well.11:31
timelyxkonttori: i take it you don't use browser full screen11:31
tigertkonttori: and that leads to a need to redesign a lot of applications11:31
konttoriI do, but that's not the only way to use it.11:31
timelyxi think it'd probably be more like only the active frame gets a scroller11:31
konttoritigert: yeah.11:31
tigertlike, all the two-pane layouts are bye-bye then11:31
tigertwhich then kicks schedules in the arse etc11:32
konttoriAnd as opposed to implement panning everywhene, you end up with freeing the space for the scroll bar altogether.11:32
tigertits a fscking snowball11:32
tigertand we all know it11:32
konttoriYou might instead have a trasparent notificator of the location.11:32
timelyxtigert: don't forget the people who want portrait mode :)11:32
tigertlets just say portrait mode is not exactly my top priority at this point :)11:32
timelyxkonttori: scrolling an overview is something that could be implemented everywhere :)11:32
konttoritimelyx: indeed. And in that implementation the scrollbar would take even more space.11:32
konttoriI mean in the portrait mode.11:33
tigertbut this kind of rethinking takes a big effort11:33
konttoritimelyx: you must be kidding11:33
timelyxthanks for clarifying/qualifying11:33
timelyxkonttori: why?11:33
timelyxif you have 10,000 emails11:33
timelyxor if you have 10,000 pictures11:33
timelyxwould you really object to an overview for them?11:34
konttoriAnd in your 10 000 emails, how do you actually know where to scroll in that overview?11:34
timelyxin outlook, i jump by date region11:34
timelyxor header creature11:34
konttoripanning is much better in that kind of application..11:34
timelyxwhichever is the current grouper11:34
timelyxin pictures w/ picasa, it's the same11:34
timelyxpanning fails miserably in both cases11:35
konttorisounds like you are making quite a big change to all the apps in that manner of thinking.11:35
timelyxhi :)11:35
konttoriI'm not opposed to special cases, but for general lists, there needs to be a general scolling method.11:35
timelyxout of curiosity, how many photos, mp3s, and emails do you have?11:36
timelyx(general survey, roope is welcome to answer too)11:36
konttoriI have around 1000 mp3s, 2000 photos.11:36
konttoriNo emails, as the email app doesn't work11:36
timelyxyou're free to answer emails for things outside your device11:36
timelyxsame for the others :)11:36
timelyxi have 0 emails in the device, but i certainly have more than 100 outside :)11:36
tigertYou are currently using 1112 MB (38%) of your 2880 MB.11:37
tigertInbox (563)11:37
tigert(unread) :)11:37
timelyxYou are currently using 2795 MB (97%) of your 2880 MB.11:37
timelyxin red text!11:37
* timelyx hates the red text11:37
timelyxthat's the old/full mailbox11:38
roopePanning is great.11:38
timelyxthe new one is using 19%11:38
roope(just reading the backlog :)11:38
timelyxthe new one is say 4months old11:38
timelyxanyway, how do you organize (or not) your pictures?11:39
timelyxand how do you find anything in them?11:39
timelyxalso, have you tried scrolling in outlook for windows?11:39
timelyxwhen you start scrolling by dragging the thumb, it shows you a hint about what you're zooming past11:40
timelyxsame is done iirc in word and excel11:40
roopeabout 10000 mp3:s on my computer. couple thousand photos.11:40
timelyxit might show you the current pagenumber or section or date/month category11:40
timelyxor a row/col in excel i suppose11:41
* timelyx rarely uses excel11:41
timelyxAll messages in the Trash have been deleted forever.11:41
timelyxYou are currently using 2783 MB (96%) of your 2880 MB.11:41
timelyxthat didn't really help much11:41
* timelyx tries deleting spam11:42
tigertkonttori: ukmp could show a spinner animation or progressbar when scanning memory card11:43
tigertnow it looks like it is dead11:43
tigertsince it takes quite a while11:43
timelyxYou are currently using 2782 MB (96%) of your 2880 MB.11:43
timelyxok, spam really doesn't count for much11:43
timelyxYou are currently using 576 MB (20%) of your 2880 MB.11:44
timelyxhrm, so much for only using 19% :(11:44
roopeFor finding music, I don't ever scroll through a list of 10000 songs. I filter them down and then select.11:44
timelyxroope: and photos?11:44
roopeMetadata. Select a right date or folder.11:45
timelyxhrm, next, do any of you use ebooks/pdfs? if so, how many do you have11:45
timelyxand how short are they?11:45
* timelyx finds it hard to believe that scrolling is a problem for just browser11:45
timelyxroope: what's the worst filter down case you have for songs?11:45
konttoritigert: true. I'll see to add something for the first go.11:46
roopeScrolling is a problem allover, but the current implementation of using these scrollbars is part of the problem.11:46
tigertkonttori: another thing is, I dunno if is supposed to do it already,11:46
roopeWell, I type a couple of letters and then select the song. Or search the artist and then the song.11:46
tigertbut long press of "esc" key (back arrow) should quit apps11:46
tigertand I know this is not well documented anywhere I guess11:46
tigertor close windows, rather11:46
tigertdevice rebooted11:46
pellodamn, not my day, battery died while installing osso-xterm11:47
timelyxtigert: nice :)11:47
roopeI'm using this Approcket app for windows, it's a bit like quicksilver. It's really easy to access nearly any song.11:47
konttoritigert: I'll add the esc.11:47
roopeJust type a couple first letters and it comes up in the list.11:47
konttoriIt's been on my list for a while.11:47
timelyxroope: *nod*11:47
timelyxthat's kinda what i expect11:47
konttoriI use itunes, which is just great.11:47
timelyxone way to do that is w/ a pan/scroll where as you go letter changes in item titles are shown11:47
timelyxso if you're now in the "rock"et section11:47
roopeDeep hierarchies imho just suck. It's faster to search.11:47
timelyxit shows that11:47
roopeThan to go through many levels.11:48
timelyxand when you end up in "rythm" and blues, you see that11:48
roopetimelyx: Yeah, those things are ok. Even my ipod starts to do that.11:48
timelyxsure you could do a type search, but if people like pannig (or something like it)11:48
roopeIf I scroll fast enough, it starts just showing the initial letter of where I'm scrolling.11:48
tigerttext input on the go is also harder11:48
timelyxthat's what i'm thinking of when i talk about overview scrolling11:48
timelyxmost good apps have such a model11:49
timelyxand people recognize it, even if they don't really remember it being there11:49
timelyxthe browser doesn't have that11:49
timelyxthe n95 browser does11:49
roopeYeah. Opera 4 mini for S60 is very nice.11:49
roopeIt goes overview - 100% view always.11:49
tigertalso the webkit one does that I think11:49
konttoriwell, e.g. itunes only just shows the entire content of your lib in one list with scrollbar.11:49
tigertnow ukmp reboots my device11:50
tigertI wonder what happens11:50
timelyxwah. gmail delivered a phishing attempt for paypal11:50
konttoriand that's the default behaviour of probably the most used mp3 app.11:50
tigertI am scp'ing songs over, could be that too11:50
timelyxtigert: webkit = n9511:50
konttoritigert:  try it in xterm11:50
konttoriuse MediaCenter command.11:50
roopeOpera 4 mini has really nice details that add up to the experience. For instance when going to the next web page it doesn't clear up the previous one before the next one loads. I really hate looking at the blank screen in the s60 browser for 5-10 seconds for every page.11:50
roopeIt feels a lot faster than the s60 one also.11:51
tigertkonttori: I'll copy the songs over first11:51
timelyxanyway, i really think implementing an overview is a lot more useful/important than most of the other options11:51
timelyxroope: will that run on my e61i?11:51
* timelyx needs to get it...11:51
roopetimelyx: Yes. Just go to   it's free for now.11:52
roopeI have it on my e61.11:52
roopeI still don't think that the overview and scroll/pan are somehow exclusionary things. You can have both.11:52
roopeoverview is a somewhat specific case for the browser.11:52
roopeThe scroll/pan is more of a general framework navigation style question.11:53
timelyxroope: i'll grab it from work (after lunch) in 30mins i guess11:54
roopeIt's a shame s60 forces 3rd party apps to ask every time "is it all right for this application to connect to the internet".11:54
roopetimelyx: it's about the best browser I've used with my s60 so far.11:55
tigertdoes mplayer (and thus ukmp) play ogg?11:55
timelyxroope / tigert: what's the format for the FRHOC wifi pass?11:55
timelyxif you don't recognize that, you can't help :)11:56
roopemine has 13 numbers.11:56
timelyxit's a function of your birthday and your id11:56
timelyxbut getting the sequence right is beyond my ability to remember11:56
wumpusroope: that would imo be a great thing if all browsers did that, show the page when fully loaded, I loatha seeing pages being built up image by image paragraph by paragraph etc :)11:56
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timelyxi think it's something like day month decade id11:56
roopeWell, I don't mind if the structure would remain stable.11:56
roopeBut of course it can't.11:56
timelyxwumpus: so...11:57
timelyxwe have managers who complain that the browser looks unresponsive11:57
roopetimelyx: looks like nokid id + 5 numbers of ddmmy11:57
timelyxif it doesn't paint /something/11:57
timelyxroope: which order?11:57
wumpuswell, true, if it would show a rectangle of the size of the images, but empty it woul dbe oke... but I hate the page changing while loading11:57
roopein that order. id first.11:57
timelyxok, thanks11:57
timelyxoddly enough, some users have the same complaint11:57
wumpusI've always hated that in web browsing, compared to other interactive menus etc11:57
timelyxi.e. the managers aren't entirely out of their gourd11:57
roopeThe s60 browser is the worst. At first it shows the content, then it hides it, then it shows it again.11:58
timelyxwumpus: kinda stuck11:58
roopeI wouldn't mind reading the text non-css-formatted.11:58
timelyxyou don't know if the image will load until you've downloaded it11:58
timelyxit could be invalid at the last bite11:58
timelyxif it's invalid, you have to rotate to the fallback content11:58
timelyxand reflow11:58
timelyxno matter what /some/ operation *will* require changing layout11:58
wumpusno, you could just show the empty rectangle of the right size11:59
timelyxyou can bet one way or the other11:59
wumpuswith an 'invalid' icon11:59
timelyxsure, but if the image isn't valid11:59
timelyxthen you must at that point change to the alternate text11:59
timelyxthe placeholder goes away in standards mode11:59
timelyxit's a requirement of html11:59
wumpusbut it could remain the same size11:59
timelyxhtml spec doesn't allow that11:59
timelyxonly quirks modes do11:59
timelyxsorry. i've been working on web browsers and quirks for many years11:59
timelyxand i love controversies12:00
wumpusI don't care about the html spec, it was just a gripe I've had with web browsing since the beginning12:00
timelyxand quirks, and such12:00
wumpusand I've been there since 199512:00
timelyxyeah, well... users, web authors, web browsers, and specifiers12:00
timelyxmake 1 or maybe 2 happy12:00
timelyxor perhaps, try not to make more than 3 unhappy?12:00
tigertgotta love FAT and memory cards12:00
tigert[131204.512000] sdd: rw=0, want=3998720, limit=199936012:00
tigert[131204.512000] attempt to access beyond end of device12:00
timelyxdid fsck really have nothing to say? :)12:01
* tigert wonders whats up with timeless and his two nicks12:01
wumpustimelyx: anyhow, all the reflows while loading are inefficient as well, especially on an embedded device12:01
timelyxtigert: i have 3 actually12:02
timelyxtimelyx is my mac, it has scrollback12:02
timelyxtimelE61i is well, my phone12:02
timelyxtimeless is me in  a screen session, reachable from anywhere, limited scrollback12:02
wumpusIt'd be a nightmare f some day I opened a newspaper and it'd be reflowing while I read it :')12:02
timelyxwumpus: it's coming!12:02
timelyxdigital ink is getting better12:02
wumpushehe I suppose12:02
wumpusso are broken standards coming to paper too, yay12:03
timelyxhowever, most likely the cpus will not be as slow as the ones we have12:03
timelyxand probably they'll be smarter12:03
timelyxand only render when they're done12:03
wumpuslet's pray for that :)12:03
timelyxyou don't see advertisements on billboards that incrementally renders12:03
timelyxadvertisers pay for quality12:03
wumpusit's especially annoying on sites with large amount of images.. each time you try to read some text, it jumps down, while the image snaps in place12:04
timelyxwould you like a Coca Cola sponsored n800i with that?12:04
timelyxdisclaimer: i know of nothing relating to partnership deals with anyone12:05
wumpusI'd like a pepsi one better but thank you :D12:05
timelyxwell, thank pepsi if they offer it :)12:05
timelyxseriously, most likely for a thing like paper, the key will be whether someone manages to sponsor enough cpu power w/ decent battery12:06
wumpusthough I'd wonder if they'd sponsor the devices or the sites/network12:06
timelyxthe alternative is to not actually send unrendered content12:06
timelyxif you send pictures to the newspaper along w/ a hitmap rule for what goes to new locations12:07
timelyxthen the paper doesn't have problems12:07
wumpusor an intermediate format, which exactly specifies the position and size of each text block and image12:07
timelyxit's only a problem if your digital paper lets you draw circles on it, fill in surveys, ...12:07
* tigert tries to get enough music on his device to see ukmp's panning :)12:07
timelyxthe paper could accept pdfs as input :)12:08
timelyxin fact, most digital ink devices do that as a primary source12:08
timelyxbrowser support is always secondary from what i've seen12:08
wumpuspdfs are great format for that indeed12:08
wumpusit might replace html some day :)12:08
timelyxdo you enable js in your acrobat reader?12:09
konttoritigert: easiest way is to make a e.g. party list of 100 songs in itunes and copy those to the device.12:09
timelyxit can have at least as many security bugs as a web browser12:09
tigertkonttori: yeah12:09
wumpuswell your browser would effectively be acrobat reader, in that case, so it's no longer a heavy plugin12:09
tigertI need more music :)12:09
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tigertneed to "consult" roope after vacations I think12:10
timelyxhrm., konttori and roope specified how many songs they have12:10
timelyxtigert didn't12:10
roopeme and marko could set up a nice mp*3 store somewhere12:10
konttoritigert: ukmp uses the gstreamer, so once you have the ogg plugin, oggs will work.12:10
tigertmarius has some too but its a bit hm.. different taste :)12:11
tigertkonttori: where to get that?12:11
timelyxthat reminds me, i need to deal w/ gstreamer12:11
timelyxkonttori: how well do you know gstreamer?12:11
timelyxi'm looking for someone i could pay to write a wrapper or mapping to gstreamer12:11
timelyx(out of my own pocket)12:11
konttoritimelyx: I don't know it too well. Just enought to get by some annoying bugs.12:12
konttoriOgg plugin is here:12:13
timelyxis the file i'm stuck trying to convert to gstreamer12:14
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konttoriout of my league12:14
timelyxthere are way too many repos12:14
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wumpusindeed, way too many12:16
tigertlets try12:16
wumpusup to the point that you wonder why they use repositories, if you have to add one for each package anyway :)12:17
timelyxthe theoretical reason is upgrades12:17
timelyxin practice it's so that you can get version conflicts in the future :)12:17
konttoriI'll have to add tag parsing for ogg files soon. So many open source people (like tigert) seem to have oggs.12:19
konttoricurrent one just uses the folder name as album name.12:20
tigertkonttori: ah12:24
tigertman, it crashed12:25
* tigert runs from terminal12:25
tigertread-only fs12:25
tigertfun with FAT12:25
tigertbut ukmp shouldnt crash on that :)12:26
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* timelyx grumbles12:29
timelyxthe next browser update would probably take a >1mb hit for certificate checks12:29
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konttoritigert: True. I'll have to add some code that will check the access level.12:41
konttoritimelyx: really?12:42
konttoriso, it will be checking the validity of the certificates and that code takes a meg? sweet.12:42
timelyxkonttori: gcc sucks12:42
timelyxit's not anywhere near that simple12:42
konttoriahh... well. I guess it never is ;)12:42
timelyxtoday the browser checks the validity chain for certs it has12:42
timelyxor rather in the browser you have12:43
konttoriok, and in the future?12:43
timelyxthe browser i could build today can download certificates it sees referenced but doesn't have12:43
timelyxfrom http, https, ldap12:43
timelyxyour browser also assumes that a cert is only signed by one other cert12:43
konttoriahh... is that the normal behaviour for firefox?12:43
timelyxbut certificates  can be signed by multiple certificates...12:44
timelyxkonttori: i'm a gecko developer first, a maemo browser engineer because i'm paid to do it12:44
* konttori was just watching the opera mini 4 demo vid. 12:44
konttorinokia really needs to put good dpads to use that kind or scrolling around.12:45
timelyxnote: windows Vista and to some extent windows XP (or rather IE and any app that uses the OS to do networking on those platforms) already does this stuff12:45
timelyxnot going to happen :)12:45
timelyxhave you seen the e61i thumb?12:45
timelyxit's awful12:45
timelyxand it's probably the future :)12:45
konttoriNope. I did test it quickly though.12:45
timelyxwell, my crystal ball is at least as foggy as yours12:45
konttoriDoes it have force sensitivity?12:45
* timelyx chuckles12:46
timelyxbut nokia tries very hard to reuse components12:46
konttoriI know. Still, even by modifying the dpad mold, it could be made better.12:46
timelyxi think an eraser head component would probably make more sense12:46
timelyxthose have had pressure recognition for probably well over a decade12:46
konttoriyou mean like they have on laptops?12:46
konttoriI think that could work pretty well.12:47
timelyxtrackpoint i suppose might be a more technical term12:47
konttoriI was kind of thinking 61 had that12:47
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konttorithat looks just as bad dpad as they have in n800. (only smaller)12:49
konttoriI hope I'm wrong12:49
konttoriConsidering nintendo kind of perfected normal dpad in the early 80s with NES, nokia could have learned something of dpad design from that.12:50
konttoriwell.. I guess they did. Ngage rockers were in both editions pretty good.12:51
timelyxi think it's actually worse12:51
timelyxthe button area is bigger12:51
timelyxand the right/left are positioned such that i tend to hit the adjacent buttons :)12:52
konttorithe middle button. Yeah. seems like it. But that might be an illusion (if it's actually made from one plastic piece)12:52
timelyxno, i own both12:52
timelyxi just don't have either in front of me12:52
konttoriI mean shame it doesn't work (not shame that you have 'em)12:53
timelyxmy n800s are in my bag because i should be at work12:53
dpb_timelyx: ugh, that long link you posted somehow highlighted me :D12:54
AD-N770timelyx: Which is the problem that you have with gstreamer ?12:55
timelyxdpb_: heh12:57
timelyxAD-N770: i have code that uses liboggplay (?) and i need it converted to use gstreamer12:57
timelyx(in a modular way ...)12:57
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AD-N770timelyx: just for palying ogg files in another app ?13:03
AD-N770timelyx: on gstreamer is really easy write this kind of stuff, just at command line for example  gst-launch-0.10 filesrc location= /media/mmc1/Music/On\ the\ Night/01\ -\ Calling\ Elvis.ogg ! oggdemux ! ivorbisdec ! dsppcmsink13:03
timelyxin another app, yes13:04
timelyxa gecko web browser to be more specifically13:04
timelyxwhich is receiving streaming content13:04
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AD-N770timelyx: are you providing the buffering of the streamed content or could you delegate it to gstreamer  ?13:05
timelyxi am the web browser13:07
* dpb_ browses with timelyx 13:07
timelyxi have all sorts of non transferable auth tokens floating around13:07
AD-N770timelyx: people on #gstreamer channel probably could help you better than me. But from my point of view you have a pair of options13:10
maddlermorning all...13:10
AD-N7701) delegate to gstreamer the handling of the streamed content using gnomevfssrc, rtspsrc, mmssrc or whatever that will be apropiate, you can use palybin that will autoplug the required element depending on the src, mime and pluggins aviable13:13
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pupniktimelyx: you have a gstreamer ogg plugin?13:14
AD-N7702) create a src element that does the interaction with your internal buffering and use it with decodebin to create the decoding pipeline plus the sinks13:14
pupnikignore my question :)13:15
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AD-N770timelyx: write a pluggin for gstreamer is really easy, I need only 4 days of work/reading tutorial to write my first one13:18
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AD-N770plugin, sorry my english isn't good as I would like13:19
AD-N770for the tuner tool, I wrote a plugin that performs a FFT(uses kissFFT) on one second of audio data13:20
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disqmorning (i really woke up this late)13:20
AD-N770after find the peakl, fundamental frequency13:20
AD-N770and send a msg to the app13:20
AD-N770with that element I can build a pipeline like dsppcmsrc ! kissfft ! fakesink13:21
AD-N770and all the sound captured by the mic is analysed13:22
AD-N770on the app I'm running a second pipeline with audiotstsrc ! dsppcmsink for the piano keyboard to produce some notes13:23
pupnikyaay for timelyx! rihs buttons plz mompf kthx :)13:23
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pupnikheh better dpad and right hand side buttons are my personal holy grail13:30
timelessah, yes, well, i don't have *any* influence over hardware13:30
timelessand from talking about it w/other people, it seems like virtually no one in the software group does13:30
timelesseven after being here for a couple of years in some cases13:31
timelessi'm not saying that we really should make a gameboy, although i poke management about it perhaps twice a year :)13:31
pupniki know it's not a priority13:31
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pupniki can live with the onscreen buttons on the right hand side - been testing them with ur-quan masters now for two days13:32
pupnikbut i really have problems with the dpad :(  does anybody you meet recognize it as a problem?13:32
timelyxwhich problems do you have? :)13:32
pupnikmoving left-right-up-down quickly is very difficult.13:32
timelyxfixing them doesn't seem to be a priority13:33
pupnikalso the enter button is in the way13:33
pupnikif another company like gamepark holdings licensed the n800 or n900 (whatever) internals and designed a gaming case around it, that might be a possibility to sell units to the gaming/emu niche13:35
pupnikanother possibility i am looking at is hand-building a case for a bluetooth gaming pad that fits around the n770 (just for me)13:35
timelyxproblem is, the only company of any interest out there is nintendo13:36
timelyxand they know how to do ui design and hardware design better than we do. oh and marketting!13:36
pupnikyes, they sell many units- i read 100,000 last february or something13:36
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timelyxoh, and they've done a fairly good job of managing wifi and touchscreen and arrows/buttons ...13:36
pupnikthe DS has wifi?13:37
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* pupnik has gotten two people interested enough in the N770/800 to buy one13:38
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zodttdIm one of the two people interested right pupnik? :)13:43
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pupnikwell you knew about it before zodttd13:51
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inzpupnik, you mean 770/N800 ;)13:54
zodttdpupnik: Technically I wasnt interested in the tablet enough to get one until I saw your projects.13:54
SeRiGood Morning guys13:54
* SeRi ywans....13:55
SeRiMan time to go to work....13:55
SeRiyay DS hacks!13:55
SeRiI love DS bootloaders and roms :P13:55
SeRiok guys I am off to work.... cya!13:57
pupniki dunno, that DS device looks too clunky13:57
pupnikcheers SeRi13:57
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Toma-could someone please port 'saytime' to maemo? :D it would be super. like those old talking clocks15:19
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inzToma-, date +'%A %B %d %H:%M'|flite15:26
Toma-flite you say...15:26
Toma-oh NEAT! :D15:27
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pupnikI want a cashier job at a store with no customers.15:36
pupnikToma-: you can put it in a cron script too, or make an hourly chime...15:37
Toma-oh nice.15:37
Toma-i cant find a package for flite anywhere tho15:37
Toma-seems the person never put it on garage15:38
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jaitToma-, maemo mapper pulls it when you try to install it15:46
Toma-oh wow. ok then15:47
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Toma-ill use apt then :) thanks15:47
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looljobi: Around?16:19
looljobi: Is there a canonical place where I can fetch the patch between you gtk and upstream's?  Should I diff a SVN export of your gtk module against the tarball?16:19
looljobi: I need gdk_close_all_temporary_windows() for newer hildon-desktop :)16:19
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alteregoAnyone have any issues with a 4Gb mini SD card in the N800?17:07
alteregoThinking of purchasing a couple.17:07
keesjalterego: I did not have issues on the N800 and I use it as rootfs17:12
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alteregokeesj, cool.17:12
keesjskype stopped working lately but that's different :p17:12
keesjalterego: but on the forums and mailing list some people had troubles17:13
alteregoWell, I have a problem with the on screen keyboard since I installed the microb browser :)17:13
alteregokeesj, yeah, I remember reading about that. I wasn't quite sure what their issue was.17:13
keesjI cant' select oprea als browser andy more :p17:13
alteregoYeah, I can't do that either.17:13
alteregoI've uninstalled MicroB and it's deps and it's still got that engine selection menu.17:14
alteregoWith MicroB selected, and I'm still getting this on screen kb issue.17:14
keesjthe card failed twice on me on the 770 booth time it was with maemo-mapper or cannola17:14
alteregoI think I'll wait for the next ITOS release before I reflash the device though, because it's not exactly a major problem for me.17:14
derfMaemo Mappers kills those cards hard.17:15
alteregoWell, that is the 77017:15
derfI don't have a 4 GB one, but even a 2 GB gives me trouble.17:15
keesjcould it be something with special files created by sqlite17:15
derfOn an N800.17:15
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derfWith Maemo Mapper I would suspect simply the volume of I/O done on a ton of small files.17:16
derfNo idea about Canola.17:16
* alterego uninstalls Maemo mapper.17:16
derfWhat?! No way.17:16
derfMost useful application ever.17:16
alteregoIt would be if it used a RAM disk for it's SQL database and then copied it to the SD card during power cycles.17:16
k-s[WORK]trevarthan: did you see my vkbd demo?17:16
derfalterego: Uh, that would be worse, I think.17:17
alteregoderf, How would that be worse?17:17
derfIt crashes enough that I'm already annoyed at the number of things it doesn't sync to disk until you quit the application.17:17
derf(and it doesn't shutdown gracefully if it's still running when you power off the device)17:17
alteregoIt wont make it worse derf.17:17
derfI just heard you say "cache more things in RAM", while I want "cache fewer things in RAM".17:18
derfHow is that not worse?17:18
alteregoOh, so it's worse because of something you want.17:18
derfHence the "I think" at the end of my statement.17:18
alteregoIt won't trash memory cards if the SQLite database is on a RAM disk.17:18
derfSee, I don't believe that.17:19
alteregoderf, well that's your problem.17:19
derfI think it has far more to do with the map data than the SQLite database.17:19
disqk-s[WORK]: trev told me he has a lot of work today, so he's not around17:19
alteregoOh, so it continually opens and writes to the map images?17:19
alteregoI don't think so ..17:19
derfIt does if you're scrolling around with auto-download on.17:20
alteregoderf, I think you're missing the point.17:20
disqmaemo-mapper does not trash memory cards. come on17:20
alteregoDownloading new images is just going to use up more SD memory. It's not going to constantly be writing to the same area on the media and wear it out.17:20
SeRiI have use maemo mapper since my 770 and It has not even once trash my cards17:21
derfPerhaps I should be more clear. The card itself continues to work fine. After I reboot the device because the kernel freaks out.17:21
alteregoWe're talking about your cards now?17:21
disqmemory cards to wear-leveling so writing on the same area is not a problem (because you don't write on the same area)17:21
derfI was always talking about my cards.17:21
derfI don't know what else you'd expect me to talk about.17:22
derfdisq: Yes, that's why I wasn't worried about it.17:22
alteregoWell, I'm not worried.17:22
disqderf: i was just clearing the air about that17:22
alteregoI barely use it.17:22
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alteregoThough, I probably would more if I knew how to cache a large region.17:23
derfGo into "Manage Maps", you can download the currently displayed region at the detail levels you select.17:23
alteregoAh, that easy.17:24
* alterego reinstalls maemo-mapper17:24
pupnikdo any of you ever use the 'home' button (bottom button) on the device?17:24
alteregoAll the time.17:24
derfI basically use it when I'm on travel, which has been quite often in the past 6 months.17:24
alteregopupnik, all the time ..17:24
pupnikhmm ok17:24
disqpupnik: all the time if i have a fullscreen app on the fg17:24
derfIt's useful when you've got something fullscreened.17:25
keesjpupnik: all the time , I even preffered how it worked on the it200617:25
alteregoMy xterms and browsers are always fullscreen. As are my MSN conversation windows.17:25
pupnikok, i need to make these sdl games appear in that, and also get the x virtual keyboard to appear in that list17:25
keesjperhaps we can create a wiki page with stuff we would like on the next generation device?17:26
alteregoI'd like a laser.17:26
disqspeaking of sdl. i need a sdl guru (to track my unknown keysym problem)17:26
derfI'd like a shark.17:26
keesja real joy-stick17:26
disqi'd like a popcorn machine17:26
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disqa real joy-stick and a jog dial on the opposite site17:27
keesjscroll weels more buttons17:27
pupnikanalog stick keesj ?17:27
pupnikor a fast 8-way dpad?17:27
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alteregoI don't want any more buttons thanks ..17:27
disqi don't think they'd go for analog stick17:27
keesjpupnik: no just a normal c64 type :p17:27
keesjwith different  autofire modes17:28
pupnikwould you buy a slide-in shell with bluetooth dpad and right hand side buttons?17:28
disqi would absolutely try it17:29
keesjpupnik: I don't know, I already have a wii-remote, I would prefer the buttons on the deice to be usable17:30
keesjhmm yes I would if they would be mapped to new actions like scrolling17:31
disqof course it has to be very solid when mounted17:31
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sp3000timeless: love how bug cloning files bugs on GET :O17:37
sp3000that'll teach me to use it eh ;)17:37
* sp3000 generally expects reload to be safe unless it complains17:37
* inz always excepts reload to be safe17:39
sp3000meh, it's only in the relevant rfc17:39
inz(and is often let down)17:39
sp3000who reads those17:40
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sp3000cloning is an evil feature anyway :)17:40
Toma-hey... wii-mote and the 770 would be great...17:41
alteregoWhat's the deal with this iPhone keyboard?17:44
alteregoWhy is it so "great"?17:44
keesjToma-: it's really working17:44
Toma-is it a garage project?17:45
keesjno' it's a mud package17:46
pupnikthe iphone keyboard on IT?17:48
Toma-need something interesting to do with my 770 :(17:48
pupnikToma-: plenty of things to do!  help test and improve
Toma-would really love a drum machine17:48
Toma-:o never seen this page17:49
keesjyou could try to download it from here
pupnikkeesj: what package?17:50
keesjpupnik: cwiid17:52
pupnikah for wii remote17:52
Toma-does cwiid need a n800?17:52
pupniki can't use those pages17:53
inzkeesj, try to paste -links with http instead of https17:53
inzkeesj, I don't mind, I have a garage account, but for someone who doesn't, it is annoying17:53
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keesjit's also annoying to browse the site using https anyway, every time i try to paste something the thing goed in edit mode :p17:54
pupnikoh wow, my account logs into now! wootness17:55
derfMaybe I should try it.17:55
Toma-keesj: does cwiid need a n800? im getting a libbluetooth2 error17:55
inzkeesj, I have a habit of painting text while reading it...17:56
derfAwesome. 404.17:56
keesjToma-: this version was compiled fo the n800 but I can create one for the 770 if you want to try17:56
Toma-yeh ill give it a bash17:57
Toma-ill go grab a wiimote17:57
Toma-i can do a --force to install17:57
Toma-shouldnt really matter right?17:57
keesjToma-: I don't know17:57
keesjdid somebody read the "5 button" keyboard slashdot post a few day's ago?17:58
Toma-not too deeply17:59
keesjit's a bit complicated but I would like to spend some time learning a typing method for on the road17:59
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pupnika wearable interface to the Tablet would be some fun future tech.  Chording keyboard in pocket and display in sunglasses :)18:01
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keesjrfid reader? ir? distance meter, waterproof '18:03
Toma-wmgui: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory18:04
Toma-oh yes18:04
guardian_hmm i'm logging into my n800 using ssh, to which directory does the "Documents" directory correspond to ?18:04
Toma-bit of ln -s and bam :D18:05
guardian_i thought it would be /home/usr/MyDocs18:05
guardian_but it's not18:05
derfYer welcome.18:05
maddlerkeesj: I was thinking about an RFID reader :)18:05
Toma-well its recieving buttons. no motion18:05
keesjToma-: for motion you just need to ehnable it in the gui18:06
keesjToma-: and if you have a kernel uinput module you can also use the remote as mouse18:06
Toma-sweet :D18:06
keesjyou can also shake it, but audio did not work last time I checked18:07
keesjmaddler the kits are quite big18:07
keesjperhaps a gprs chip?18:08
Toma-pretty laggy18:08
pupnik_Monkey: freesci is the Interpreter/Emulator for Sierra On-Line adventure games.  Test and comment! 770/N800 compatible testing version here
_MonkeyOK, pupnik.18:08
Toma-keesj: can you map the wiimote buttons to the Nintendo emulator?18:09
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timelesshello world18:17
timelessso, um, in case people are curious, i finally got enough time to talk to people about the browser packages and their incompatibilities18:17
timelessyesterday/today was supposed to be spent setting up something like a blog so i could post announcements18:18
timelessoh well, i'll definitely need that18:18
timelessanyway, there are two packages (tablet-browser-controls, browser-eal) which you can install from application manager if you have the extras repository18:19
timelessthey aren't compatible with the 4.2007-26 tablet-browser-ui (and its depedent) packages18:20
keesjToma-: I have not played with the emulator but why not18:20
Toma-hmmm! :D18:20
timelesswe will be issuing an updated package which includes dependencies to force that18:20
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Toma-mobile NES? yes plx!18:20
keesjif you run the daemon (and the a uinput module) it should just generate the input events18:20
Toma-i dont think theres a uinput for 77018:21
timelessbut first, we're going to do some testing cycles :(18:21
pupnikWe could use someone to dive around the gp2x fceu NES emulator sources and fix the speed/sound issues.18:23
keesjToma-: it's shipped with the btkdb18:24
Toma-ahh thanks again18:24
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whaq_timeless: is that for the mozilla based browser?18:27
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inztimeless, I can fix you with a blog in, if you want ;P18:33
timelesswhaq: um18:33
timelessso, well, the fault is mozilla based browser being intertwined with the browser ui18:34
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timelessbut it's basically possible to pull in these packages without related libraries18:34
timelessand break opera18:34
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timelessinz: i need to just setup a small script18:34
timelesswhaq: people who install microb don't have this problem18:35
timelessbut not everyone should be forced to use a beta18:35
timelessunfortunately, um18:35
* timeless hates debian18:35
whaq_will there be an easily-accessible option for end user to choose the active\default browser?18:35
whaq_yes heh18:35
timelessthere's supposed to be a menu below Close> that does that18:35
timelessi've seen it18:35
timelessi've had people report it's there18:35
timelessi've also had dozens of reports of it not being there18:35
whaq_perfect, even.18:35
timelessand i've seen that too18:35
whaq_that is weird18:36
inzI have it there18:36
timelessyou can read to see how to get it if you don't have it there18:36
timelessbut before you hack it18:36
timelessplease try to figure out what's special about your system18:36
timelessbecause no one has explained how they didn't get it18:36
timelessand we need to fix that too18:36
timelessbut we can't w/o understanding the cause18:36
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sp3000timeless: have you ruled out some locale effects18:37
* sp3000 hasn't been testing it, mind18:37
timelessi haven't18:37
timelesscurrently worrying about this other thing18:37
whaq_me either, my n800 is still in the mail..18:37
timelessdid you see the conclusion to the locale stuff?18:37
whaq_What other thing... TABS?? :D18:37
sp3000probably not18:37
timelesssp3000: check the bug while i finish filing this18:37
inzDoes anyone know how to get useful rss out of bugzilla18:37
timelessinz: eh?18:38
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inztimeless, I want rss that has the last changed -date as item date, not the bug creation date18:38
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timelessi'll fix it if you file it18:40
timelessbe sure to provide steps to get to the rss you're talking about18:40
timelessand be sure to provide an attachment showing what you get and an attachment showing what you want18:41
timelessi don't fix bugs i can't understand18:41
timelessand if the bug isn't easier to fix than other things i have to deal w/, i'll ignore it18:41
timelessbut if you make it trivial for me to fix by spelling out exactly what you want changed,18:41
timelessyou're competing for attn, make your bug count, you'll get it :)18:41
timelessit'd also be appreciated if you include examples showing why it's a correct change18:41
timelesseither a reference to a standard or just some url that changes often enough so that it can be seen18:42
inztimeless, first I'd need to fight the change to bugzilla, then to the administrators of the 'zilla in question...18:42
timelessyour goal should always be to make it easy for an engineer to fix and then easy for  the engineer to justify accepting the fix18:42
inztimeless, I guess I'll just make a perl script that makes it good enough for me18:42
* sp3000 whispers param18:42
timelessinz: if the bugzilla is bugs.maemo, i have enough pull to get things changes18:43
inztimeless, but I'm an engineer, I want to fix things, not explain why they're broken18:43
inztimeless, almost that one, but not quite18:43
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sp3000timeless: 1669 doesn conclude anything about locales, is that another bug?18:44
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sp3000dnd is hard, let's go shopping18:46
timelesssp3000: xml is hard, let's go shopping18:46
inztimeless, that template looks like what I want...18:47
timelesswhaq: see the bug i referenced18:47
timelessinz: i didn't pull it out of my rear...18:47
timelessseriously, i know and will gladly fix it18:48
timelessbut you need to explain what i need to do18:48
timelesspreferably in a bug so i can sell it18:48
timelessit'd be fixed by friday upstream18:48
inztimeless, I know, but it's not anywhere near the one I get18:48
timelessinz: what version of bugzilla are you using?18:48
inztimeless, 2.2018:49
timelessinz: there's a view using tree drop down at the top18:49
timelesschange to bugzilla2.20.x18:49
_Monkeytimeless: that doesn't look right18:49
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timelessfor kicks, you can click "diff file"18:50
timelessand select bugzilla2.20.x in one tree and bugzilla in the other18:50
timelessthen click "submit query"18:50
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timelessyou'll see that they're indeed different, although only near the bottom18:50
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* sp3000 homes18:50
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timelesssp3000: these new features on mxr-test really are useful :)18:51
pupnikSumbdy bld an aoss wrapper for /dev/dsp output kthnx18:51
timelessinz: a proper diff is available by using the CVS Log links18:51
timelesshrm, actually, i suppose there are some other differences at 32/36/39/44/50/5218:53
timelessi just can't see those !s too dimm18:53
* timeless will have to try sticking them in bold :)18:53
inztimeless, is there a way for the user to choose between rdf and atom feeds?18:53
timelessbit very useful18:54
infobot_timeless meant: not very useful18:54
timelesswait, you have *two* bots?18:54
inztimeless, the bugzilla I use outputs rdf-based rss for ctype=rss18:56
timelessinz: lemme finish filing this bug18:57
timelesscould someone please tell me the prayer one says right before someone dies?18:57
timelessis that called "last rites"?18:57
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* zuh never thought bug filing could get that dangerous18:57
timelesszuh: hold18:58
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timelessimagine filing that bug report18:58
timelesssure you shouldn't actually stick a human subject where they did, but um... the actual results do include death in what was it, 6 cases?18:58
inztimeless, I'm off to sauna now, I'll see if I'm still bothered by it tomorrow ;)18:59
* k-s[WORK] is away: lunch18:59
inztimeless, and anyway it seems to be fixed upstream18:59
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timelessinz: ok :)18:59
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timelesshyperion: yeah, it's not really funny,...19:00
timelesskeep in mind we have cases of exploding batteries19:00
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timelessand today there were reports of exploding remote control airplanes19:00
timelessyou can say a prayer for the plane before you blow it up19:00
timelessthere are also people who manage to brick their n800s19:01
timelessdefinitely want to say the prayer before it dies...19:01
timelesssorry, i think some humor is worthwhile when dealing w/ unhappy people19:02
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timelessok, i'd appreciate it if a few people at least read that item19:19
* timeless goes off to figure out blogging software19:20
unique311sl i just read on gustavobarbieri blog, that his EFL stuff are just a showcase...19:20
unique311anyone working on app using gustavo's method? will we soon be seeing these eyecandy apps for the devices...19:21
Jaffaunique311: It's a showcase/test bed for what Canola is using in the next version (AIUI)19:22
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Jaffatimeless: it's a cool example (any chance you can rebuild browser-eal or tablet-browser-controls with a dependency on tablet-browser-ui et al?)19:25
timelessjaffa: we'll do that19:26
timelessbut there's no chance i'm shipping it before friday19:26
timelessi'm going to have testers figure out all the different variations19:26
timelessyou could help19:26
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timelessbasically i need to know if 2.2007 is broken also19:26
timeless(really, i want to know if 770 non hacker edition is broken too)19:27
timelessif 2.2007 is broken, then i suspect that the fix you/i are considering is wrong19:27
timelessbecause it'd probably break even more things19:27
timelessand that's definitely not what i want19:27
timelessdoes anyone here have or remember an ancient n800?19:27
timelessi'm trying to understand what releases existed19:27
timelessbugs.maemo lists 2.2007, 3.2007, 4.200719:27
timelessbut my memory differs, so i need to find a normal person to confirm19:28
timelessanyway, if you could follow the steps i've outlined in the bug w/ 2.2007 / 3.2007 and determine if they too are breakable19:30
timelessthat'd be a great help19:30
timelessif we break those, i need a very different fix plan19:30
timelessright now i need to figure out how to deal w/ announcements and some other things19:30
timeless(qa and releng went home for the day, otherwise tomorrow morning that's what qa does. and releng would setup the repositories for qa to test..)19:31
Jaffatimeless: I'll try and find time, but I'm (suddenly) super massive busy at work :-(19:31
timelessit doesn't really have to be you of course, anyone willing to reflash could do it19:31
timelessthe steps to reproduce are designed for anyone to be able to folllow19:31
timelessalthough i didn't include the url for getting the older flash images19:32
timelesswhich i did in the steps i gave to qa19:32
timeless(instructions were clear: download from the official public site, but i did the download before a went home to avoid risk of confusion)19:32
timelessi'll comment in the bug explaining that it would be helpful19:32
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timelesshrm, stupid question19:35
timelesscan you flash a device using windows?19:35
timelesswhere are the instructions for that?19:36
timelessi can find instructions for linux and osx19:36
timeless(and i've used both)19:36
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jaittimeless, try the official n800 product pages19:37
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notpeterFor 770:  For n800:
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notpeterSpecifically, you have to change the image selected at the end of the wizard process
timelesskinda silly that doesn't have pages for this19:40
timelessone stop shopping ...19:41
timelessespecially given how amazingly bad nokia's site is at getting google hits19:41
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notpeterI have a 770, and looking to take a bunch of screenshots for tutorials, what apps do people use?19:44
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timelessthere's a screenshot-tool commandline19:44
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timelessi tend to use it w/ "sleep 5"19:44
timelessthere's also a cpu meter tray applet19:44
timelessthat happens to have a screenshot feature19:44
timelessdon't ask me why19:44
notpeterHehe, cause people who care about load probably want to take screenshots at some point ;)19:45
timelessalso not sure what you mean by "bunch", are you trying to make avvideo19:45
timelessnotpeter: *shrug*, taskmanager on windows, activity on osx neither have such a feature19:45
timelessof course, both os's come w/ native screen shot support19:45
notpeteryeah, too bad my mac doesn't have a "print screen" button ;)19:46
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notpeterno, I know, for use in windows19:46
timeless*word* i think printscreen is command (a.k.a the Apple key) - shift - 3.19:46
timelessoh, hrm19:46
timelessmy usb keyboard is mac oriented19:46
timelessi don't recall having problems using it w/ windows19:47
notpeternot a big deal, twas just kidding19:47
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notpeterbut since you mention it, there isn't a way to record video, is there?  I think the easiest way would be to just run a script that ran screenshot tool taking a screenshot every five seconds or something and then put them all together later off device.19:49
timelessthat's what i was wondering if you were looking for19:49
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timelessmy keyboard kinda looks like this: w/o the gray bits19:50
notpeterbut I'll stop speculating, I'll play with what's out there and see if it fits my needs19:50
timeless looks vaguely interesting19:51
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timeless"Load applet" is the status bar thing that does it19:52
timelessitaka sounds interesting19:55
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* timeless gives up19:56
timelessi'd probably use a shell script that basically loops around sleeping and screenshottooling19:57
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jjazzI'm trying to setup an N800 and noticed there's no /usr/bin/editor.  I know the device comes with vi, but there doesn't seem to be an escape key.  Are there any other editors on the device?  Thanks.20:01
timelessyou can use osso notes gui :)20:01
timelessthere's an upgraded xterm that has an esc button20:01
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jaitjjazz: try the escape hw key, it's the one with the arrow20:01
timelessbut the hardware escape (back) key works to send escape20:01
pupnikthe circle-arrow button should be e...20:01
jjazzAh, good tips.  Thank you all.20:02
jjazzMore questions:  is there a way to read an image off the device?  I thought I might use it for backup.  That way I can restore the box just by flashing it.20:03
timelesstechnically yes20:03
timelessi had it done once20:03
timelessin practice, i'm not sure how useful it20:03
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timelesssince the result isn't really compatible w/ anything20:03
timelessthe flasher wants input that's in an unrelated format20:04
disqprobably 0xFFFF can do that20:04
jjazzAh.  OK.  I'll stick with rsync then.20:04
timelessyeah, rsync is reasonable20:04
jjazzAnd, before I reinvent the wheel, anybody know a script that will convert gpe-calendar's sqlite db to ical?20:04
timelessi'm also not really sure you can do it w/ special hardware20:05
timelesswhen it was done for me, the guy used special hardware20:05
timelessbut i suppose it's probably theoretically possible, he basically did a dd if=/dev/{something}20:05
jjazztimeless: Special hardware... that I don't have.  Happily, rsync is a known quantity. :)20:05
timelessisn't rsync one of those apps i can't get for maemo? :)20:06
jjazzI got it via apt-get.20:06
timelessok :)20:06
timelessi just recall having trouble getting some fairly basic tool on some strange platform, i thought it was rsync20:06
timelessotoh, it might have been windows20:07
jjazzWell, I had to search all over the place for a repository, but I did eventually find one.20:07
timeless(and yes, i know rsync is amazingly portable, but some toolchains are just amazingly broken)20:07
jjazzI'm looking into scratchbox.  All these random repositories kind of freak me out.20:07
timelesshaving killed a standard desktop using repositories, you definitely want to use /something/ to protect yourself20:08
jjazztimeless: that link goes to a version of rsync that wouldn't install on my N800.  It's built for the arm instead of the armel20:09
timelessoh, you said n80020:09
timelessfor some reason i thought you said 77020:10
jjazzCool.  My bt keybd just arrived.20:10
* timeless gives up20:11
timelessmaybe it was rsync that i couldn't find easily :)20:11
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inznotpeter, if you want to upload your screenshots to flickr, you can also use mh-shot-tool ;)20:12
jjazztimeless: deb 2.0 free20:12
timeless> The spirit of simplicity extends even to Apple retail stores. The elevator in Apple's popular Tokyo store, for instance, has no floor buttons. It stops on every floor of the four-story building. "I got used to this," said Hiroshi Kawano, 40-year-old employee of a printing firm, on a recent visit to the store. "It's simple, and I like it."20:13
* timeless chuckles20:13
jjazzWhoa.  This keybd is awesome.20:16
inztimeless, paternoster-elevators are even cooler, they don't even have doors20:17
timelessinz: been there done that20:17
timelessLucerna building in Prague20:18
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* k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back.20:18
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inztimeless, sadly I've never used one, the finnish parliament house has "one" though20:19
timelessyes, i've heard/read20:19
timelessgo to prague :)20:19
inzmaybe some day20:19
timelessthe longer you wait the less likely it'll be operational :)20:20
Sparrow-I have always wondered what happens after the top floor with that kind of elevators20:20
timelessyou move laterally20:20
inzand go down20:20
janidoes anyone know any bejeweled port to maemo ?20:21
timelessi think i had one20:21
timelesson one of my older devices20:21
janigweled .. found one20:21
timeless ?20:21
timelessalthough iirc their repo was gone20:22
timelessso i couldn't install any of their software on my later devices20:22
janibut no source ..20:22
timelessthere was a 5yr girl who was fairly upset at me because i introduced her to crazyparking and then didn't have it20:22
timelessfwiw, getting 5yr olds upset is a bad idea20:23
timelessand introducing them to addictive games and then losing them is pretty bad20:23
timelesssince they have a fairly good memory20:23
janigetting any amotions out of 5yr girls is allways hazardous20:23
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timelessit'd been a while since i had much in the way of interactions with that age group20:24
janii have one of those so its kinda hard to be without.20:25
timelessi suppose you don't remember what it's like not ...20:25
janito be 5yr girl or ?20:26
timelesshaving one around20:26
* timeless suspects life is much more exciting20:27
janiif you like lots of screaming and shouting then yes =)20:28
janiim not complaining thou so dont get me wrong there.20:28
inzjani, so you do like lots of screaming and shouting?20:29
* timeless chuckles20:29
janinah. im just Not complaining.20:29
janistating the facts20:29
janithere's a difference.20:29
janivery minor. usually only audible only by db meter.20:30
* pupnik watches thoughtfix take apart a n800 on youtube20:30
janianyway, i was thinking.. if i manage to wrap up this curses based bejeweled, i'll try to port it to maemo too ..20:31
pupnikthe full version not port-able?20:32
janiwell, this is just for practicing how to make portable code ..20:32
janiand seems that battlegweled doesnt come with source ? gweled source i have ...20:33
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janiand i really want to make the curses version =)20:34
timelessjani: can you figure out if they're related? what's the license for gweled?20:37
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janithey most propably are.20:38 says "A Gweled based bejeweled clone for Maemo, if the optional multiplayer battle mode. Wi-fi only."20:39
timelessjani: send an email to the maintainer asking for the sources20:39
timelessgpl2 obligations20:40
janiits a shame how things are like this, not honouring gpl ..20:41
janii was trying to fish that url from .install files. thanks =)20:42
timelessi was already at that directory20:43
timelessbut i didn't notice the .tar.gz20:43
timelessfor some reason i decided it wasn't what i was looking for20:43
timelessthe general trick is to add /pool/ to a repository20:43
inztimeless, maybe your brain cannot decompress gzip?20:43
timelessinz: brain's very tired from all the other things, but had i clicked the link, my browser would have sent it to winzip which handled it fine20:44
timelessi think i've been in .deb land too long20:44
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timelessi was looking for a file named w/ debian source conventions20:44
janiim not that familiar with deb repositories myself20:45
inztimeless, isn't that w/ debian source conventions20:45
inztimeless, no dash in version => no upstream => no .orig in tarball20:46
timelessi think all the packages i use are hacked to hell20:46
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janii gosh.20:50
janibattlegweled uses .bmp images20:50
timelessyou don't approve?20:50
timelessmarbbles and blocks do20:51
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janii havent  noticed those. i will take need to take alook then.20:51
* pupnik notes that matchbox-keyboard is a newer 'improved' xkbd20:52
timelessthe blocks in blocks are from bmp20:52
timelessas are the numbers20:52
pupnikanybody know what that black onscreen keyboard on the penguinbait OPENROX video is?20:52
janiwell, those images take approx 5mb .. not much but still it is 4.8mb that would be used for something else.20:53
pupnikbmp: how to waste space :P20:53
timelessyou realize that jffs2 does compression20:53
timelessspace is relative20:53
janiyes i do20:53
zuhjffs2 makes speed relative too ;)20:54
janibut its not propably that efficient compared to image compression for actual image data =)20:54
pupnikgood point re: compression.  but image specific compression like in png can be more efficient20:54
timelessvirtually everything in marbles is bmp20:56
timelessone thing i'm not sure is how much is actually shipped20:56
janii knew it was horrible but i never checked what fileformats it uses.20:56
timelessi'm looking at the sources20:56
timelessyou're internal, right?20:57
timelessjust wander around20:57
janiwell, my badge says external but i have access.20:57
janiallthou im on holiday now. but im on compapps.20:58
zuhtimeless: I was about to say that keep your insider urls out of public channels but apparently that's sort of valid url in "real" world too :P20:58
timelessthat's a relatively complete reference for what we ship20:58
timelesszuh: normally i get a google redirect to some site20:59
timelesswhich is fun20:59
timelessno connection details are disclosed in that url20:59
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janii'll have to check that later when i get to the office. thanks.21:00
janithat jffs2 is bastard thing btw.21:00
janiwell, not the fs itself but how testers think how it should work.21:00
zuhInternal urls just suck since most of the people here won't be able to access it... It's like waving candy at children and saying they can't have any21:01
timelesshave some candy21:01
timelesszuh: i'm trying to get an external equivalent running on probably lxr.maemo.org21:02
timelessthe urls i do toss around are intentionally generic21:02
timelessand only show off general features that you could use on any of my installs21:02 ...21:02
zuhThat's cool, though I was mostly making a general comment about any non-accessible urls.21:02
timelessswift happens to be internal and yes, it happens to have a collection of all garage sources21:03
timelessbut the goal is to get that published outside for everyone to use21:03
timelessi just need to spend some time when i'm *not* fighting browser fires to do it21:03
janitimeless: you work also in ruoholahti or ?21:04
timelessi couldn't say that until we released browser last week :)21:04
timelesszuh: would it be in bad form for me to indicate my room number? :)21:05
timelessjani: wander around in search of the org chart hanging over the 770 from silver surfer next to the n800 sales info from nokiausa/nokia.com21:05
timeless(yes the org chart is company confidential ...)21:06
timelessit also isn't accurate (never was)21:06
zuhtimeless: only if your contract probhibits such things :)21:06
timelessthere's a rule about disclosing connection specific details or something21:07
timelessswift doesn't disclose that21:07
timelessand osso10 was released including bleeding that detail21:07
timelessthe rest of the url as i've indicated can be found all over on sites i control (and on a number i don't e.g. the one)21:07
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timelessi try to be very careful about such things21:07
timelessi'll talk about things that other people are doing in the open (e.g. plankton), but you can get it just as easily as i can21:08
timelessprobably more easily, since i need a proxy21:08
janiwell, to make it simple, i usually need to say "Im that dreadlocked/breaded fellow" and everybody remembers seeing me there =)21:09
infobotjani meant: well, to make it simple, i usually need to say "Im that dreadlocked/bearded fellow" and everybody remembers seeing me there =)21:09
* timeless doesn't remember21:09
* timeless is the american with an opinion about everything21:09
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janithen you code too much  =)21:10
timelessi don't get out much, no21:10
* timeless decides to walk home21:10
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alteregoAnyone ever have the task selector show up with big icons and text?21:29
alteregoAs though it's continually detecting a fat finger press which never happened?21:29
pupnikdo you mean thumb keyboard?21:30
alteregoNo, you know how the N800 detects when you press the application/contact/web menu with a finger it displays a large menu.21:30
alteregoLike that but with the task switcher menu (accessible through the home key)21:31
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pupnikwow i never did that before!21:31
alteregoWell, that's happening every time the task selector menu comes up. And it shouldn't.21:32
alteregoDoes that until I restart the device.21:32
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alteregoI think I will reflash my N800 in a bit actually ..21:33
alteregoGet rid of some of these weird things hopefully.21:33
janii thought it was a new feature.21:33
roundeyedoes any konw where i can find the host command and whois for mistral?21:33
alteregoOh, yeah.21:33
alteregoI can reverse it!21:33
alteregoSo if you open the menu using a finger or thumb it comes up big, and successive opens with the home button will bring up the big version.21:34
alteregoBut if you do it with small object/nail/pen it comes up small again.21:34
alteregoWell, that's nice ^_^21:34
`0660actually the big buttons come up only for people with really fat fingers21:36
roundeyedose any have whois or host working on there nokia?21:37
sp3000`0660: the rest of us get the gray alien fingers version21:38
janii dont think so but there was some net tools just released wasnt there ?21:38
janisomething was in maemo devel list by quim few weeks ago.21:39
roundeyehmm ill look into it21:40
roundeyedo you have a link where i could start looking?21:40
janiim quite sure the announcement was in too..21:41
notpeteris anyone using the high speed MMC kernels on a 770?
janicontaining ping, arping and tracepath for simple network analysis21:42
janibut no host/whois ..21:42
pupnikconfigure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check21:42
roundeyewell ill keep looking21:42
roundeyei would like to have ping too thow21:42
janianyway, host would be pretty easy to implement21:42
roundeyethanks you jani21:42
pupnikahh nm21:43
janiand whois, depends on what sort of stuff you want to do with it, i'd say there's alot of web apps which can do better whois service than most commandline tools.21:43
roundeyei konw but im tring to troble shoot some issuses on the lan21:43
janiatleast when it comes to making queries against multiple whois servers.21:43
roundeyeim having problems with the name server where im at21:44
janithats one thing where web whois cant help ya =)21:44
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pupnikit appears that i can not create an x window with less than full width in ITOS21:57
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fatal-_considering video on n800, what would be the ideal video format and resolution? I was thinking about how to watch dvd's with it...22:00
pupniki use to convert movies to nokia friendly format22:02
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fatal-_pupnik: oh, thanks, I'll try that one. I just got a 2GB sd and thought that I shoud put it into some use :)22:04
pupnikdepends on what you're using to play the stuff... mplayer can do xvid/divx22:05
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trevarthanIs there a menu application or something out there that I can configure with my most commonly used shell command, so that when I start up xterm I just run one command and then press down a bunch of times or something?22:21
trevarthanI could write one... but I'm lazy.22:21
alteregoYou can configure the toolbar.22:22
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trevarthanyeah, I know, but I need more options than that.22:22
trevarthanit gets crowded.22:22
cbx33hey all when i run python gtk apps....the edge of the window over laps the nice faded edge of the screen on the left22:23
cbx33anyway to stop this?22:23
cbx33nmapfe is very crowded.....hehehe ;)22:23
alteregocbx33, in the SDK?22:23
cbx33i just installed python22:23
cbx33and I'm running a very simple program22:23
cbx33but i want it to look nice22:23
cbx33just like22:23
cbx33import gtk22:23
alteregocbx33, you need to read the Python tutorial.22:23
cbx33oh ok22:23
lmouracbx33, are you using hildon.Window or gtk.Window?22:24
cbx33the maemo python tutorial?22:24
alteregoYou have to create a Hildon::Window and a Hildon::Program22:24
cbx33gtk window22:24
cbx33i guess that's the problem22:24
alteregoNo, Hildon::Window22:24
alteregoYes :)22:24
cbx33got a link22:24
cbx33would relaly like to read up on that22:24
whaq_hm.. quite a lot of bluetooth keyboards in the market.. any particularly good one?22:24
lmouracbx33, pymaemo.garage.maemo.org22:24
alteregonmapfe isn't properly ported to maemo, that's why it doesn't integrate with the UI.22:24
cbx33alterego, i know22:25
cbx33oh and i tried to untar the pygtk src today22:26
cbx33to get the docs22:26
cbx33and i got tar: invalid tar magic22:26
cbx33any ideas?22:26
alteregocbx33, it's gzip'd too I'd imagine.22:26
alteregoTry, tar xzf tarfile.tar22:26
trevarthanAny way to launch console apps from a button on the Home screen?22:27
alteregocbx33, If you're using UNIX you can use 'file filename' to find out what kind of file it is.22:27
cbx33alterego, yeh that didn't work22:27
cbx33i did22:27
alteregocbx33, if that doesn't work. Try downloading the source again ;)22:27
alteregoCome on, it's not that big :)22:27
cbx33is pymaemo.... the python you instlal from the repos?22:28
pyhimyscbx33: tar xf foo.tar22:28
pyhimysit might be non-gzipped22:28
cbx33its a .tar.gz22:29
cbx33i tried that22:29
cbx33it won't budge22:29
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alteregoYeah, probably corrupted then.22:32
timelyxhey jani?22:36
timelyxindt games for maemo just posted to add a garage project :)22:36
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cbx33ok I'll try again later on22:37
alteregoWell, that was short lived.22:37
cbx33thanks guys22:37
janiemail or to the website?22:37
cbx33is pymaemo.... the python you instlal from the repos?22:37
alteregoMy site is no longer #1 in google for Ruby Maemo :~(22:37
alteregoOh well, I'm gonna move the project to anyhow.22:38
timelyxa project22:40
timelyxi don't generally do approvals of project proposals22:40
timelyxerr, i've *never* done them :)22:41
timelyxbut i get email for them :)22:41
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MDKrobtaylor: wtf, I can't authorize you still dude22:53
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pupniki think i figured out a possible way to get xkbd out of the way when running apps.  the window height is selectable (but not the width) so i might be able to add a button to change window height to 8 pixels.  then a tap in that area will revert it to the normal size23:17
fatal-_uh oh. all the sound output of my n800 is more or less garbled suddenly :o23:18
Sulisfatal-_: that has happened to me twice, first time i had to reflash it to fix it, but the second time it only took a restart23:18
fatal-_hmm. well, restart time then23:19
Sulisgood luck23:20
pupnikreboot fixed the tv brightness problem23:20
fatal-_reboot fixed the problem..23:22
unique311pupnik for you...23:22
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unique311can u port senior23:23
cbx33thanks for the hildon help23:31
cbx33anything else that I should use hildon for rather than gtk?23:31
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* cbx33 wants a btkb but they are all so expensive23:32
roundeyeheres the question23:32
roundeyeborg vs. transformers who wins23:32
cbx33though I'd love it if the transformers did23:33
Sulispft, the borg assimilate their technilogical and biological likenesses into their own23:33
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pupniklooks fun unique31123:34
unique311i tried23:34
pupnikwhat didn't work?23:34
GreySimIs installing software on '06 on a 770 generally a major hassle, or am I (hopefully) missing something?23:35
pupnikit's a bit of a hassle sometimes23:36
* GreySim is particularly interested in Evince and Xournal and can't seem to make it work.23:36
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cbx33thanks so much for the hildon links23:38
N800I tried compiling it pupnik...23:38
cbx33guys this is gonna be so cool23:38
N800but failed..23:38
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N800complained about SDL_mixer.h23:38
||cwGreySim: you added the sources right?23:38
GreySimAre there sometimes multiple places to get things? Maybe I'm just using the wrong repository...23:39
pupnikN800 i found some of the sdl headers were missing and i manually copied them in from another debian distro23:39
GreySimIt's giving me missing package problems when trying to download.23:40
pupnikthen install those missing packages first23:40
pupnikN800 you should have /usr/include/SDL/SDL_mixer.h23:41
GreySimWait, wrong error. One moment please.23:41
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GreySimUnable to download. Package not found.23:43
pupnikwhere did you see that error23:44
GreySimAlso, hurray for word completion.23:44
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GreySimApplication manager, when trying to install Xournal.23:45
unique311pupnik, will you give it a go when you have time?23:45
pupnikGreySim: do you have 770 or 800?23:47
unique311my scratchbox must be borked then...23:47
GreySimBefore, it was giving me problems about libglade, and somewhere, saw that mistral free non-free was supposed to have had it.23:47
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||cwunfortuantly sometimes repo's go offline23:47
GreySimAs in temporarily, or shutting up shop?23:49
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pupniki never got Xournal installed either23:50
pupnikand maemopad+ that also claims sketching ability didn't work either for me23:51
cbx33i just re tared up some files and I can't untar them on the N80023:51
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GreySimIs there a biggest and/or best repository to be working with for the 770?23:54
* GreySim might've chosen some poor repositorys to start with.23:55
pupnikGreySim: i'd contact the porter directly23:56
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GreySimHmm. Well, thanks all.23:58
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pupnikunique311: can you test super mario war?23:58
pupniki have an unstable tablet here23:59
unique311yeah send it23:59
unique311how did you compile it.23:59
unique311my scratchbox is definitely screwed23:59
pupnik./configure && make23:59
unique311come on..23:59

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