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| pupnik | ~flash! ahh ahhhhh!~ | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| Sho_ | kakos: mc ;) | 00:11 |
| kakos | Sho_: Isn't mc command line based? | 00:11 |
| Sho_ | kakos: yes (you'll need Ossi Xterm) | 00:11 |
| kakos | Sho_: As much as I love terminals, I'd prefer a GUI-based file manager | 00:11 |
| Sho_ | kakos: Unfortunately I haven't found a decent GUI-based one | 00:12 |
| Sho_ | (for the N800, that is) | 00:12 |
| kakos | gpe-filemanager seems to work fine | 00:12 |
| Sho_ | kakos: I was pondering to convert Thunar (XFce.org's lightweight file manager into a Hildon app, but I'm a KDE developer and tremble at the thought of digging into GTK+ code =) | 00:12 |
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| tko | Sho_: you could always start by compiling qt and kde... :) | 00:13 |
| Sho_ | kakos: http://thunar.xfce.org/index.html | 00:13 |
| Sho_ | tko: I could, but unfortunately Maemo's input methods are tied to GTK+ | 00:14 |
| tko | Sho_: well, you could continue there.. :) | 00:14 |
| kakos | Eh. I don't need a great file manager... just one that lets me get to root without the use of symlinks | 00:14 |
| Sho_ | tko: So my first todo item would be to check out if I can somehow splice Xvkbd and the input method together to make it work with Qt windows, too | 00:14 |
| tko | there is some reverse-engineered documentation in the wiki, and we should be getting the interesting parts of the input methods published "real soon now" | 00:15 |
| Sho_ | tko: Sounds cool - could you hand me a link to that wiki page? | 00:15 |
| tko | http://maemo.org/community/wiki/InputMethod I think | 00:16 |
| Sho_ | tko: thanks | 00:16 |
| tko | I can't recall the state of opening the implementation.. it's been in progress for so long | 00:16 |
| Sho_ | tko: got the device less than two weeks ago and didn't have too much time to look into its software guts yet :-) | 00:17 |
| Sho_ | tko: With Qt4 it would probably be pretty easy to do given that it can be built to use the glib main event loop | 00:18 |
| tko | Sho_: I'd probably just reimplement it since it's all based on a couple of X messages anyway | 00:20 |
| Sho_ | food for thought, hmhm | 00:22 |
| * Sho_ reserves some weekend tinkering time | 00:22 | |
| * kakos wants a transparent full-screen finger keyboard | 00:25 | |
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| roope | kakos: for a transparent keyboard, how would it really work? | 00:40 |
| roope | how would you select something from the application area? | 00:40 |
| roope | how would you reposition the cursor. how would you paint text. how would you pan the web page etc. | 00:42 |
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| kakos | roope: It'd be just like the full-screen keyboard we have now, but it types in real time rather than storing it in a buffer and you can see it interact with the textbox in question | 00:47 |
| roope | kakos: so you couldn't actually interact with the background? | 00:47 |
| roope | For instance, you couldn't reposition the cursor in the textbox by tapping there? | 00:48 |
| kakos | Not while the keyboard is up. Then when you minimise it, you interact with the background again | 00:48 |
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| roope | That's a quite big problem if you would want to actually put the cursor into a new position. | 00:48 |
| kakos | I'm just looking for an incremental improvement on the existing full-screen keyboard rather than the ultimate solution | 00:48 |
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| roope | how would it improve it? | 00:49 |
| kakos | Well, I was always annoyed that I was essentially blind while the full-screen keyboard was up. | 00:49 |
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| kakos | Say I'm writing something in the Note app, I'd like to be able to see the text appear in the Notes application rather than all the text being crammed into that little buffer at the top | 00:50 |
| kakos | Furthermore, if you don't need that buffer at the top, you could space the keys out a little better since you have more screen realestate | 00:50 |
| roope | Well. Kind of. But have you tried actually drawing a transparent keyboard on top of text on Notes? It's a complete mess. | 00:50 |
| roope | Both have text. It's not really easy to read. | 00:50 |
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| roope | I'd like to see a real-life worst case example first. :) | 00:51 |
| kakos | Well, if you can somehow manage true alpha transparency, it can be done. | 00:52 |
| kakos | I have terminals layers upon each other and I can read each layer fairly consistently | 00:52 |
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| roope | I didn't mean from a technical perspective. Of course it can be done, but. | 00:52 |
| roope | I tried. I really tried those when doing the design. | 00:53 |
| roope | But at least I thought them to be really poor. | 00:53 |
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| kakos | roope: You designed the full-screen keyboard? | 00:53 |
| roope | kakos: yup. | 00:53 |
| kakos | roope: Cool. :) Thanks, BTW. | 00:54 |
| roope | I'm all for still improving it. :) | 00:54 |
| roope | But I'm not 100% sure about transparency being an improvement. | 00:54 |
| roope | The problem really comes that if the textfield goes behind the keyboard, then manipulating the textfield becomes harder. | 00:54 |
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| kakos | roope: Neither am I. It was the first thing that came to mind when I was thinking of how to improve it | 00:54 |
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| kakos | Hmmm | 00:55 |
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| roope | For widgets that have labels an obvious improvement would be to just import the label of that widget to the full screen view. | 00:57 |
| roope | so at least you remember to which field you are entering text. | 00:57 |
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| kakos | Sorry about that | 00:58 |
| kakos | Is there a way to tell between a tap from the stylus and a finger pressing on the screen? | 00:59 |
| roope | yes. and we utilize it, for launching stylus keyboard / finger keyboard. | 00:59 |
| kakos | That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure | 01:00 |
| Sho_ | roope: A real-time translucent full-screen keyboard would be an interesting opt-in feature, though. For example, to be able to follow a chat while typing a response, as not to be redundant or late. | 01:00 |
| kakos | Perhaps when the full-screen keyboard is up, thumb presses interact with the transparent keys that overlay the screen and the stylus interacts with the background? | 01:00 |
| roope | sho: yes, that's true. there are real problems with the current thing. | 01:00 |
| roope | kakos: in theory, yes, but who is holding the stylus when using the finger keyboard? | 01:00 |
| roope | (your fingernails can act as the stylus, yes.) | 01:00 |
| Sho_ | roope: Does the X server on the device ship with COMPOSITE? | 01:01 |
| roope | sho: no idea, sorry. I don't really know about the technical stuff. | 01:01 |
| roope | I'm an interaction designer. | 01:01 |
| kakos | roope: I can hold the stylus while I'm using the thumb keyboard. | 01:01 |
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| Sho_ | roope: ok :) | 01:02 |
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| roope | kakos: yes well, you _can_, but. :) | 01:02 |
| kakos | roope: I just kind of nestle it between my palm and the side of the N800 when I'm thumb typing | 01:02 |
| roope | Most users don't. | 01:02 |
| kakos | roope: Well, I don't care about anyone else. ;) | 01:02 |
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| roope | I have to care. :) | 01:03 |
| kakos | Hmmm. Make one of the buttons swap between interacting with the full-screen keyboard and the background? So, activate a text field, open up the full-screen keyboard, type a little, hit the button and select another text field, hit the button again, type some more, ad nauseum? | 01:04 |
| Sho_ | Although curiously, I'm much faster with the stylus-driven keyboard than the finger one (I thought it would be the reverse) | 01:04 |
| roope | kakos: wouldn't that button be called the "close keyboard" button? | 01:05 |
| roope | close it, select another text field, continue? | 01:05 |
| kakos | Yes... | 01:05 |
| kakos | Heh | 01:05 |
| kakos | I'm tired. :) | 01:05 |
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| Sho_ | roope: got any user testing numbers on typing performance stylus vs. fingers? wondering if I'm part of the trend :) | 01:06 |
| kakos | You could make the full-screen keyboard an option as the default text entry method so when you click on a text field, it pops up instead of the virtual keyboard or handwriting recognition thing. | 01:07 |
| kakos | That way it becomes much easier for users to just close it and switch to a new text field and have it pop up again | 01:08 |
| roope | sho: umm, mostly speed-wise there isn't a major difference. | 01:08 |
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| roope | some are faster with the one, some with the other. | 01:08 |
| Sho_ | hmkay :) | 01:09 |
| roope | kakos: that's true, kind of. then agian, if you tap the text field with the thumb, it does launch the full screen immediately. | 01:09 |
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| roope | speed is gained with time of use. so the more you use one, the faster you become. (chicken and egg, kind of. :) | 01:09 |
| kakos | Hmmm. So it does... | 01:10 |
| kakos | I didn't know that, actually | 01:10 |
| roope | kakos: that's what we use the finger detection. tap text field with stylus -> get stylus optimized input method. tap text field with finger -> get finger optimized input method. | 01:10 |
| roope | I like to think that it's a neat idea. :) | 01:11 |
| kakos | It is, actually. | 01:11 |
| kakos | It just never occurred to me. :) | 01:11 |
| kakos | On a slight aside, when you tap the button to get upper case letters, why doesn't it revert to lower-case letters once you hit a key? | 01:12 |
| roope | in the finger keyboard? it should. | 01:12 |
| Sho_ | kakos: unless by "tap the button to get upper case letters" you mean caps lock ;) | 01:13 |
| kakos | Sho_: Yeah, that one, but there is no normal shift in the finger board as far as I can tell. | 01:13 |
| Sho_ | hm | 01:14 |
| roope | hm | 01:14 |
| kakos | roope: Hmmm. Perhaps my install is busted. :( | 01:14 |
| * Sho_ has his n800 in the other room atm :) | 01:14 | |
| roope | no, actually you're right. hmm. | 01:14 |
| roope | auto-cap does work, but. | 01:14 |
| kakos | yeah. The auto-cap works fine | 01:15 |
| roope | I guess. Hm. It's simpler to have only two states and manual user interaction. I didn't want three states. like shift state and caps lock state. | 01:17 |
| roope | then again, it wouldn't really need caps lock at all. | 01:17 |
| roope | poor answer, sorry. :) | 01:20 |
| kakos | Heh | 01:21 |
| kakos | Would it be possible to make the transparency thing a selectable option? With it off, you get what we have now, with it on you get a transparent keyboard without the buffer thingie so you can do things like chat | 01:21 |
| roope | It would have a fair bit of work, because then all the button sizes would need to change. The layout would ideally change. | 01:22 |
| roope | Rather than just increasing the height of the current buttons, a better layout could be created. and that would be very much work et.c | 01:22 |
| kakos | I'll make you cookies if you do it. <3 | 01:23 |
| kakos | Anyway, just a suggestion. | 01:25 |
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| kakos | Does Maemo actually support alpha transparency? | 01:25 |
| roope | yeah. but it wouldn't be really trivial. | 01:25 |
| roope | kakos: some parts already do. | 01:25 |
| roope | so yes technically, it can be done. it's not used universally. | 01:25 |
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| kakos | Well, just a suggestion. | 01:26 |
| kakos | I'll send you guys a delicious cake if you implement it, but I won't hold my breath. :) | 01:26 |
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| kakos | roope: Do you know if the thumb keyboard is open sourced or not? | 01:40 |
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| PierreTramo | any *BSD user here? | 02:57 |
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| SeRi | how can i remove canola? | 04:11 |
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| dobey | hola | 04:40 |
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| rhys | ello | 04:46 |
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| rhys | how do you type on the nokias? | 04:49 |
| dobey | the on-screen keyboard, or a bluetooth keyboard | 04:50 |
| rhys | so for xterm and the like, theres an osk? | 04:51 |
| dobey | there is on my n800 | 04:51 |
| dobey | what i'm having trouble with, is flashing the device with a new version of OS 2007 :( | 04:52 |
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| rhys | im looking to buy one | 04:53 |
| rhys | the nokia n800, the sony mylo, or a treo 700p | 04:53 |
| rhys | i still need to look at the ipaqs | 04:54 |
| dobey | the samsung q1 looks nice too, but it's $799 | 04:54 |
| dobey | is anyone else around that knows anything about flashing the new firmware? | 04:54 |
| rhys | hmno. | 04:54 |
| dobey | the How-To on maemo.org for using the flasher, sucks | 04:55 |
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| Aeroraptor | Does kb7sqi ever talk in here? | 05:34 |
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| rhys | why use debian for embedded? | 05:54 |
| rwhitby | it supports arm | 05:58 |
| rhys | oh. | 06:01 |
| rhys | right. | 06:02 |
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| rhys | any big reason to get the n800 over the n770? | 06:06 |
| rhys | does the 770 have flash 7 or 9? | 06:13 |
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| derf | rhys: The whole twice the RAM and twice the internal flash storage make a big difference. | 06:34 |
| rhys | does the 770 have a camera? | 06:34 |
| rhys | its only vga. im just trying to pin down the differences other than that | 06:35 |
| rhys | both still have the 250mhz TI proc ? | 06:35 |
| kakos | The N800 has a 350 MHz | 06:35 |
| kakos | It also has a 3d accelerator chip which isn't as yet supported, but many people think it is going to be in the next patch | 06:35 |
| rhys | so its more powerful. does battery life suffer? cause the n800 is 350 and the n770 is 200 | 06:35 |
| rhys | kakos, do you know any other differences? | 06:40 |
| kakos | The battery life doesn't seem to suffer as far as I've noticed. | 06:41 |
| kakos | Let me think... | 06:41 |
| kakos | It has two SD slots rather than the single RS-MMC of the 770, which is nice | 06:41 |
| kakos | The speakers are better, but that isn't much of an issue since the sound quality isn't that great from either | 06:41 |
| kakos | I think those are the major things | 06:42 |
| kakos | How much can you get the 770 for? | 06:42 |
| rhys | 175$ on ebay | 06:43 |
| rhys | 150 used | 06:43 |
| rhys | 200 brand new in box | 06:44 |
| kakos | Hmmmm | 06:44 |
| kakos | It was definitely a worthy upgrade. If you can afford the N800, then I'd say that is your best bet | 06:45 |
| kakos | If money is an issue, then the 770 is still a damned good little machine | 06:45 |
| rhys | grrrrr. | 06:45 |
| rhys | thats the problem | 06:45 |
| rhys | im gonna get a bluetooth keyboard for sure to take notes in... i dont think i can type quickly enough in a lecture on the OSK | 06:46 |
| kakos | Hmmm | 06:46 |
| kakos | What do you plan on doing with it? | 06:47 |
| rhys | is "damned good machine" enough? 400 vs 250? is it worth 150? my other things im looking at is a sony mylo. both of those id need to get a phone..which is 150$. sanyo 8400. or i could get the treo 700p. | 06:47 |
| rhys | email, class notes, kismet, all my little toys. | 06:48 |
| rhys | actually i think im gonna rule out the treo just because of wifi. they are decently cheap..but i love linux too much | 06:48 |
| kakos | They also suck. Heh | 06:50 |
| kakos | Here's my official suggestion. Get the N800 unless you absolutely cannot. | 06:51 |
| rhys | im reading | 06:51 |
| kakos | The 770 has a lot of software, but the community activity has dropped since the N800 came out. | 06:51 |
| kakos | You can run IT 2007 on the 770, but I don't know how well it runs. I never tried it | 06:51 |
| rhys | dropped? or shifted to the it2007? | 06:52 |
| kakos | Shifted to IT2007 | 06:52 |
| rhys | i was looking at the software, it was huge. including claws mail. i just found claws a month or so ago to replace obese thunderbird | 06:52 |
| rhys | i run zenwalk linux. | 06:53 |
| kakos | Yeah. There is an impressive selection of software out there for it | 06:54 |
| kakos | I don't think I'd ever get along without my N800 (or my 770 before it) | 06:54 |
| rhys | does stuff that worked in 2006 work for 2007? are both 2.6 kernel based? | 06:54 |
| kakos | Either one is well worth the money you pay for it, but the N800 is probably a better buy overall | 06:55 |
| kakos | rhys: Some stuff that worked in 2006 works in 2007 | 06:55 |
| kakos | It's sort of hit and miss in that regard. | 06:55 |
| rhys | right. new kernel, new libraries. i understand. | 06:55 |
| kakos | They are both 2.6.x kernels, but the API changed some in the upgrade | 06:55 |
| kakos | I've gotten a fair amount of software for IT2006 to run just fine on IT2007, but some also doesn't. | 06:55 |
| kakos | Most of the software that doesn't has a 2007 version available though | 06:56 |
| rhys | something interesting if you interested embedded. friend of mine got me a avr32 ngw100 reference design. they are awesome little | 06:56 |
| rhys | oy | 06:56 |
| rhys | toy*! | 06:57 |
| rhys | thank you kakos. nice thing, i live almost for free, and thats just one weeks check. oh well. | 07:01 |
| rhys | hopefully its worth it | 07:01 |
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| kulve | MoRpHeUz: I think it was the gst-gmyth that looked the includes in wrong place | 10:04 |
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| kulve | (or the gmyth's pkgconfig file has the wrong -I in Cflags) | 10:04 |
| MoRpHeUz | kulve: but it was not compiling ? | 10:06 |
| kulve | gst-myth compiled after I removed the "gmyth" part of the -I path | 10:07 |
| kulve | pkgconfig file add prefix/include/gmyth to include dirs and gst-gmyth uses "#include <gmyth/gmyth-something.h>", so there's one "gmyth" dir too much | 10:08 |
| kulve | with /usr/ prefix everything works because /usr/include is automatically added as include dir | 10:09 |
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| MoRpHeUz | kulve: I got the point.... | 10:09 |
| MoRpHeUz | kulve: thanks for that...I'll fix that... =) | 10:10 |
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| kulve | let me know when it's fixed | 10:15 |
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| kulve | I quickly tried streaming, but I didn't get it running | 10:17 |
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| MoRpHeUz | kulve: ok...I need to send you a "good" url...it's easy, but you need to know the parameters.. | 10:18 |
| MoRpHeUz | kulve: I'm just finishing some work and then I can do this stuff =) | 10:18 |
| kulve | thx. I'll test it again in the evening. I'm probably going to write a very short Debian Etch specific howto, if I get it working ;) | 10:19 |
| MoRpHeUz | kulve: great! thanks again! =) | 10:21 |
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| lardman | Am I right in thinking that I need to email Nokia/Maemo site any pages that I'd like to add to the wiki before I can add them? | 10:46 |
| lardman | or so they can add them perhaps | 10:46 |
| * lardman is looking here: https://maemo.org/legal/contribution_guidelines | 10:48 | |
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| jani | lol. faq link in that page is 404 | 10:55 |
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| cy303 | yo | 11:22 |
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| cy303 | Anyone have any luck pairing an MDA (t-mobile) phone with the N800? | 11:27 |
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| pupnik | lardman: maybe // but if you think you're doing something useful i'd ignore it and assume they'll respect that | 11:46 |
| lardman | Don't worry, the wiki is free access isn't it | 11:48 |
| lardman | I'd just read the link rather than tried adding stuff | 11:48 |
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| lardman | I hate wiki editing, esp when there's no preview | 11:48 |
| pupnik | now i am curious to see what you are working on | 11:48 |
| pupnik | url? | 11:48 |
| lardman | https://maemo.org/community/wiki/edit/spprogramming.html | 11:48 |
| lardman | I screwed up the name somehow | 11:49 |
| lardman | should have been dspprogramming | 11:49 |
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| pupnik | wow, cool stuff | 11:51 |
| lardman | not especially, but I thought I'd document it, mainly as I want to get something added to the Wishlist | 11:51 |
| pupnik | what have you done with DSP? | 11:52 |
| lardman | There's not a lot to do with it, data can be sent to and from, but it's not possible to get audio output atm | 11:53 |
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| pupnik | so for e.g. someone trying to add an ogg dsp sink would need a recompiled kernel? | 11:54 |
| lardman | That is supposition, but the best I can work out at the moment, unless Nokia give us a header file of the EAP_ functions | 11:55 |
| lardman | recompiled DSP kernel that is of course | 11:55 |
| pupnik | yes | 11:56 |
| pupnik | when i had a NeXT someone wrote a fractal browser using the dsp | 11:56 |
| lardman | It is quite possible to write a mini-driver, as there's documentation galore, it's just whether it could be introduced without the kernel recompile. | 11:57 |
| lardman | I've not looked at whether the kernel could be recompiled easily, sounds like another steep learning curve | 11:57 |
| pupnik | have you asked for help on the mailing list? | 11:57 |
| lardman | Yes, long while back, thought I'd add it as a bug, etc. and see whether I could get Nokia to put the header file bit in the wish list | 11:58 |
| pupnik | maybe they are NDA'd by TI | 11:58 |
| pupnik | aha | 11:58 |
| sxpert-work | stupid NDAs from hell | 11:59 |
| lardman | I'm sure some of it is under NDA, just seems a shame as there is some demand for extra software codecs and this would be something for people to work on | 11:59 |
| * sxpert-work wonders what the use for those NDAs is | 12:00 | |
| lardman | fluendo were subcontracted the DSP work | 12:00 |
| sxpert-work | that I know. | 12:00 |
| lardman | perhaps they retain the rights | 12:01 |
| sxpert-work | the question is "what does TI gets from imposing NDAs on chips specs" | 12:01 |
| lardman | That's not TI though, they seem to publicise almost everything | 12:01 |
| sxpert-work | sounds totally counterproductive to their business which is (obviously) selling chips | 12:01 |
| lardman | except the IVA of course | 12:01 |
| sxpert-work | IVA ? | 12:02 |
| lardman | Imaging Video Accelerator | 12:02 |
| sxpert-work | why would they have an NDA on that ? | 12:02 |
| sxpert-work | didn't they design that too ? | 12:02 |
| lardman | dunno, no info about though | 12:02 |
| sxpert-work | (it sounds so ridiculous) | 12:02 |
| cy303 | ahh, there we go | 12:03 |
| cy303 | woot | 12:03 |
| roope | probably to make it harder to competitors. | 12:03 |
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| sxpert-work | roope: not by much, I'm afraid | 12:04 |
| lardman | Anyway, the issue here is probably more of who wrote the code. It's quite possible to write a new driver (& kernel), though a fair bit of effort - far easier with a header file I hope | 12:05 |
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| lardman | Poor david hautbois is getting lots of email notifications from me atm | 12:10 |
| lardman | Right, I'm banging my head against a wall here, how do I stop the wiki from stealing my line-breaks? | 12:11 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 12:12 |
| lardman | morning | 12:12 |
| lardman | ~lart wikis | 12:13 |
| * infobot lowers wikis's priority | 12:13 | |
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| florian | good morning | 12:17 |
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| pupnik | moin | 12:34 |
| bilboed | I'm getting a weird error when setting up my google talk account on the n800. It's coming up with "Server's SSL certificate has expired". | 12:38 |
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| tigert | your date is wrong on the device | 12:41 |
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| tigert | ? | 12:41 |
| guardian | hello, i'm building a library i would like to split in 2 parts: 1 part == core stuff, 2 part == gtk only stuff. how can i tell in my makefile.am that libfoo-gtk depends on libfoo, both being shared libraries (or libtool libraries) | 12:42 |
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| bilboed | tigert, eh, good point :) | 12:43 |
| tigert | bilboed: caught me too :) | 12:43 |
| tigert | a lot of websites bork wiht the same issue if your date is in the future or way in the past | 12:44 |
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| bilboed | indeed. I don't think we're the 7th of January 1970 | 12:52 |
| bilboed | even though I'm listening to some funk :) | 12:53 |
| tigert | yep | 12:57 |
| tigert | funk has no concept of age | 12:57 |
| suihkulokki | ah, that's why there is a shop called funky lady | 12:58 |
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| sbaturzio | Aloha! | 13:12 |
| jani | funk is from beyond time and space | 13:17 |
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| jani | there's living proof of that too.. bootsy | 13:17 |
| bilboed | yep, free your mind... | 13:18 |
| bilboed | Is there a way to have the n800 make sound when there's incoming messages ? and not just for calls | 13:18 |
| bilboed | sorry... it does produce some sound | 13:19 |
| bilboed | my bad | 13:19 |
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| konttori_ | sweet. I just got dailymotion to work on uktube. | 13:28 |
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| konttori_ | Hey, I'm having trouble playing dailymotion based flash video on mplayer on the device. It works on my desktop with mplayer. Any ideas what might be wrong? | 14:14 |
| konttori_ | clip here: http://www.helsinki.fi/~konttori/MediaConverter/dailymotiontest.flv | 14:14 |
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| guardian | refresh applicatin list always gives me a "unable to refresh package list" error | 14:38 |
| guardian | what could be the reason ? | 14:38 |
| sp3000 | menu -> tools -> log? | 14:41 |
| guardian | uh never noticed it | 14:44 |
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| guardian | lst entry is failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dist/bora/free/binary-armel/Packages.gz | 14:45 |
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| sp3000 | yeah the ui doesn't exactly help you resolve catalog issues, you get a generic error in one place, look for the problem in another place and resolve it in a third place, none of which point to each other | 14:47 |
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| guardian | yeah well, i give up | 14:47 |
| guardian | thx for the help anyway :) | 14:47 |
| gwak | guardian:do you have the old minimo .br repo? | 14:48 |
| * sp3000 wonders if the catalog editor dialog could have some indications for catalogs that are acting dead | 14:48 | |
| guardian | minimo.br repo, doesn't ring a bell | 14:49 |
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| sp3000 | guardian: think I might have gotten one of those because of a duplicate catalog entry (that was logged in those words more or less too) | 14:49 |
| guardian | i just fail at finding a real use for this cool device :) | 14:50 |
| guardian | i went to downloads.maemo.org, installed bunch of stuff then well ok it's cool but not really useful | 14:50 |
| sp3000 | (one for extras bora free non-free and another for extras bora free only as it happens) | 14:50 |
| guardian | from a coding perspective, it's interesting though | 14:51 |
| * sp3000 rocks the read stuff on the bus and how the hell do i get home from here at this hour cases mostly | 14:53 | |
| sp3000 | with a dash of irc and website edits from inconvenient positions | 14:54 |
| sp3000 | and a pinch of notes, music and whatnot | 14:57 |
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| guardian | irc on the virtual keyboard | 14:59 |
| guardian | ouch :) | 14:59 |
| mgedmin | yeah | 15:00 |
| Veggen | guardian: if travelling a bit unplanned (i.e. not having booked hotels, etc), it's very convenient to have ubiquous web-access. | 15:00 |
| * sp3000 doesn't much do essays on irc | 15:00 | |
| Veggen | guardian: I also found maemo mapper with for example google maps backend handy, when travelling to unknown towns. | 15:01 |
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| guardian | also makes sense | 15:01 |
| guardian | my cellphone options don't allow me to do much | 15:02 |
| guardian | so in the end i nearly never pair my tablet with it | 15:02 |
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| Veggen | And I've used it at pub evening at my local LUG. It happens quite often that you just need to look up some facts. | 15:02 |
| Veggen | It's a bit like a leatherman, I'd say. It's something you learn to appreciate to have handy when you need it ;) | 15:02 |
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| Veggen | cellphone option without data? *boggle* | 15:03 |
| cy303 | It's a geek toy | 15:04 |
| cy303 | Something you drop $400 on and play with for a few days | 15:04 |
| Veggen | that's one of the real important things, I'd say ;) Way more important than any camera or mp3 playing capabilities. | 15:04 |
| cy303 | Then it goes in the closet with the rest of the toys | 15:04 |
| cy303 | ;) | 15:04 |
| cy303 | keey it in the bathroom | 15:04 |
| cy303 | poop-t3rm | 15:04 |
| cy303 | perfect little rss reader while you're on the pot :P | 15:05 |
| Jaffa | What is? | 15:05 |
| Jaffa | The N800's second worse feature after email has to be the RSS reader ;-) | 15:05 |
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| cy303 | Jaffa: really? I think the RSS reader is it's best feature | 15:05 |
| osfameron | despite the horrible bugs and uselessness? | 15:06 |
| cy303 | I haven't really run into any trouble with it yet, but I just got my n800 today | 15:06 |
| cy303 | I'm subscribed to like 10 feeds | 15:07 |
| cy303 | seems to work dandy | 15:07 |
| osfameron | it crashes on certain feeds, and the scrolling for long pages is completely broken | 15:07 |
| suihkulokki | I think it's designed for feeds that jsut have a title and a link | 15:07 |
| suihkulokki | planet-style feeds with content choke it | 15:07 |
| cy303 | well that sucks | 15:08 |
| pupnik | is the rss reader open source? | 15:08 |
| cy303 | maybe we'll see a new reader soon | 15:08 |
| osfameron | which is a shame because that's what you want it for... offline reading | 15:08 |
| Jaffa | pupnik: yes | 15:09 |
| cy303 | http://maemo.org/downloads/product/streamtuner/ is pretty badass | 15:09 |
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| Jaffa | cy303: apart from occasionally forgetting all your feeds (*may* now be fixed), it removes unread entries on the automatic update. | 15:11 |
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| Jaffa | pupnik: someone's been talking on ITT of fixing it. | 15:11 |
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| Jaffa | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=953 is the biggest annoyance of the RSS reader which is why I don't use it anymore. | 15:12 |
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| cy303 | hmm | 15:12 |
| cy303 | does google reader work in the browser? | 15:12 |
| sp3000 | the mobile version, yes | 15:13 |
| sp3000 | the ajaxy version has sizing issues | 15:13 |
| cy303 | well fuck it then | 15:13 |
| cy303 | use google reader mobile version i guess :P | 15:13 |
| sp3000 | I do :) | 15:13 |
| cy303 | hehe | 15:13 |
| cy303 | isn't there also some other mozilla based browser that's been ported over that supports all the 0day ajaxy stuffs? | 15:13 |
| gwak | http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/Gui.html | 15:14 |
| gwak | this is a ajax rss reader i wrote a few weeks ago | 15:14 |
| cy303 | noice | 15:14 |
| cy303 | that's a good point | 15:15 |
| cy303 | can always just write your own web apps | 15:15 |
| cy303 | that's nice gawk, I digit | 15:15 |
| gwak | the source is here | 15:15 |
| gwak | http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/n800-reader-bin.tar | 15:15 |
| gwak | grr | 15:15 |
| gwak | http://gwak.dyndns.org/n800/n800-reader.tar | 15:15 |
| cy303 | what's it written in? | 15:15 |
| cy303 | snagging it, thanks | 15:15 |
| gwak | google web tool kit | 15:15 |
| cy303 | :) | 15:15 |
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| cy303 | gwak: nice! | 15:15 |
| gwak | and the google ajax api | 15:15 |
| cy303 | gwak: yeah we used that for clickcaster.com .. for an rss reader a long time ago | 15:16 |
| sp3000 | heh, a megabyte :D | 15:16 |
| cy303 | I think it's still up on old.clickcaster.com somewhere | 15:16 |
| Jaffa | cy303: google for "minimo" for the Mozilla browser | 15:16 |
| gwak | just load it on your /media/mmc1 and access it from localhost | 15:16 |
| cy303 | gwak: nice man | 15:16 |
| cy303 | any dependencies ? | 15:16 |
| cy303 | Jaffa: do you recommend minimo? | 15:17 |
| gwak | to build it yea, | 15:17 |
| gwak | to run it no | 15:17 |
| cy303 | coo | 15:17 |
| gwak | the google gwt stuff is pretty slick | 15:17 |
| cy303 | hell yeah | 15:17 |
| gwak | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6588&highlight=gwt | 15:18 |
| gwak | is the build howto | 15:18 |
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| cy303 | nice | 15:21 |
| cy303 | I just wish I could flip it to portrait.. kinda lame that's not a feature | 15:22 |
| cy303 | definitely nice paired with the cellphone | 15:24 |
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| cy303 | Could use a SIP client | 15:25 |
| cy303 | or an IAX2 client | 15:25 |
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| pupnik | http://www.buy.com/prod/nokia-770-internet-tablet-internet-tablet-2006-software-edition/q/loc/101/204081472.html | 15:53 |
| pupnik | buy.com has em for $139.99 | 15:53 |
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| VRe | dirt cheap, only if its platform would be advancing same speed as maemo.. | 15:56 |
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| lardman | Any debian gurus here? | 16:13 |
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| Veggen | lardman: Uhm - better to just ask the question? Probably very many know quite a lot about Debian systems, here. | 16:13 |
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| lardman | Trying to build Octave 2.9.12 from the debian source & diff using dpkg-buildpackage, it fails to recognise f77/g77 as being GNU; running configure it finds it fine. | 16:15 |
| lardman | I can't see that it's a variable problem in configure, perhaps one of the flags passed by debian/rules interferes. Painful though. | 16:15 |
| lardman | Is there a way to do a usual configure & make, then package up the result using some script that looks at the Makefile? Would make my life much easier (as in general debian recipes need to be altered) | 16:17 |
| Veggen | well...there is a config.log or such. | 16:17 |
| Veggen | And you can look a the makefile and the variables etc. | 16:17 |
| lardman | I know about debugging configure problems, but this configure file is a beast! I was just venting and wondering if there's not an easier way | 16:18 |
| lardman | thanks though | 16:18 |
| Veggen | I'd look at the debian/rules file. | 16:19 |
| Veggen | The arguments to configure is in that file. | 16:19 |
| lardman | Yes, I've had to change them | 16:19 |
| lardman | That was why it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps there's some interaction with either a flag or an env var and therefore a problem in the configure script. I'll take a look this evening | 16:20 |
| Veggen | well, hard to say without looking at it, really. | 16:20 |
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| * lardman must make a concerted effort to understand the debian build process rather than just trying to scrape by | 16:21 | |
| lardman | One thing I don't understand is why I need to download the source & a diff & a dsc file, then have to manually apply the patch. Must be missing a step somewhere... | 16:23 |
| lardman | ahh, dpkg-source | 16:24 |
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| gwak | http://stephesblog.blogs.com/my_weblog/2007/06/ari-jaaksi-on-n.html | 16:36 |
| pupnik | right | 16:39 |
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| pupnik | great link gwak! | 16:44 |
| pupnik | "Open source simplifies and accelerates software licensing, and reduces technology and quality risks. Instead of negotiation for months, the technical work can start immediately." | 16:45 |
| gwak | pupnik:yea i hope Ari, can evangelize more people at Nokia. (my source was reddit.com) | 16:48 |
| pupnik | i love my 770 so much. just dropped it on concrete twice last week - no problems | 16:49 |
| pupnik | now with ssvb's awesome mplayer the vids play back beautifully | 16:50 |
| gwak | i imagine that integrated cover comes in handy then ;-] | 16:50 |
| pupnik | and soon i expect we'll have DrPocketSnes running at full speed with sound | 16:50 |
| pupnik | yeah! | 16:50 |
| mgedmin | mhm... I dropped my Palm m500 a few times, and the touchscreen broke down after the last drop | 16:51 |
| pupnik | hi mgedmin! :) yeah i can't advocate the dropping thing. | 16:51 |
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| pupnik | i haven't persuaded any of my programmer friends to buy a 770 yet. :( | 16:51 |
| pupnik | gonna get on the gp2x boards and advertise | 16:52 |
| mgedmin | why a 770 rather than a n800? | 16:52 |
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| pupnik | $130 | 16:52 |
| guardian | hello, i'm building a library i would like to split in 2 parts: part 1 == core stuff, part 2 == gtk only stuff. how can i tell in my makefile.am that libfoo-gtk depends on libfoo, both being shared libraries (or libtool libraries) | 16:52 |
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| gwak | http://www.apple.com/iphone/usingiphone/keyboard_small.html from engadget | 17:17 |
| gwak | hope n800 can be hacked to have some of the features | 17:18 |
| pupnik | i don't have quicktime - what's good about that? | 17:19 |
| cy- | that sure would be nice | 17:19 |
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| cy- | gwak: one of the *MAIN* thing that I find the N800 lacks is good data entry | 17:20 |
| pupnik | what's the alternative to an onscreen keyboard? | 17:20 |
| cy- | I suppose I should try using the onscreen for thumb typing.. but just got my n800 today and was all being careful about smudging and crap :P | 17:20 |
| gwak | pupnik: the auto spell checker / the cursor placmnt seems better | 17:20 |
| cy- | no point really.. heh | 17:20 |
| gwak | nothing that could not be added the hildon IM methods | 17:21 |
| cy- | hildon IM methods? | 17:21 |
| gwak | the virtual keybaords | 17:22 |
| cy- | gwak: I'm only using the built in virtual keyboard.. is there something better? | 17:22 |
| gwak | cool it enlarges the keys that it thinks your going to type! | 17:22 |
| cy- | yeah that rocks | 17:23 |
| bilboed | the bad thing about the auto-completion on the virtual keyboard... is that you have to put your hand on the proposition | 17:23 |
| bilboed | that really sucks | 17:23 |
| bilboed | it would be better to have a button on the side of the virtual keyboard to do that | 17:23 |
| `0660 | you can also click the d-pad to right | 17:24 |
| bilboed | ooh | 17:25 |
| bilboed | let me see if that it easy to do | 17:25 |
| cy- | gwak: so there are alternatives to the n800 built in virtual keyboard? | 17:25 |
| bilboed | `0660, indeed. Shame it doesn't add the space along with it | 17:25 |
| bilboed | cy-, buying a bluetooth keyboard :) | 17:26 |
| gwak | cy: im not sure, i thought about looking into it - i would love a different keyboard for GAIM for instance | 17:26 |
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| pupnik | There's an interesting input method that draws the most likely upcoming letters in boxes around the input area | 17:27 |
| gwak | pupnik: is that for the n800? | 17:27 |
| pupnik | no | 17:27 |
| pupnik | i don't have the name in memory sorry | 17:27 |
| cy- | yeah GAIM sucks.. typing with a stylus or whatever heh | 17:29 |
| cy- | I guess I should play around with the enlarged keyboard mode and thumb typing | 17:29 |
| pupnik | i got a bluetooth keyboard right away | 17:29 |
| bilboed | ok, once configured with light sensitivity and knowing the completion trick.... thumb mode is really usable | 17:29 |
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| gwak | cy: yea esp if your using the thumb board - mainly because you can not see what new IM's have come while your typing | 17:30 |
| cy- | yeah weak | 17:30 |
| gwak | and the gaim UI is multiline | 17:30 |
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| cy- | man, if there's an IAX2 or SIP client for the N800 that would rock sox | 17:32 |
| cy- | Just connect to my asterisk server with it.. that'd be pimp. | 17:32 |
| `0660 | i think someone was experimenting making the thumb keyboard transparent | 17:32 |
| cy- | minisip looks like | 17:32 |
| cy- | hmmm | 17:32 |
| cy- | work in progress | 17:32 |
| cy- | dopestatus | 17:33 |
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| cy- | gwak: have you used the n800's 'web cam' for 'video conferencing' yet? | 17:35 |
| gwak | cy-: nope i do use Gizamo for pc->telephone | 17:36 |
| cy- | does that work fairly well? | 17:36 |
| cy- | no choppyness/crappy audio/etc | 17:36 |
| cy- | ? | 17:36 |
| gwak | cy-:ok, it has a bit more of a lag then Skype - but not to bad | 17:37 |
| cy- | hrm | 17:37 |
| cy- | coo | 17:37 |
| MoRpHeUz | cy-: you can use gizmo to connect to any sip server | 17:37 |
| MoRpHeUz | gwak: that's write. gizmo works well. a bit more of lag than Skype but still works =) | 17:37 |
| cy- | MoRpHeUz: that's badass. I've heard rumors about that, but haven't tried it out. | 17:37 |
| MoRpHeUz | and soon we'll have skype for the device also.. | 17:37 |
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| gwak | people are saying friday for the new firmware! | 17:38 |
| cy- | MoRpHeUz: I definitely just want a SIP/IAX2 client. So Gizmo would be ideal if I can use it to connect to my asterisk server, which sounds like I can. | 17:39 |
| MoRpHeUz | cy-: yeah... | 17:39 |
| cy- | MoRpHeUz: However, I don't see Gizmo client for n800 anywhere.. not in maemo software.. | 17:39 |
| cy- | just need to install http://swik.net/gizmo ? | 17:39 |
| MoRpHeUz | cy-: http://www.gizmoproject.com/learnmore-nokia800.html | 17:40 |
| cy- | noice | 17:40 |
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| DESiBELi | Does maemo battery tool get it's info via dbus or file? | 17:45 |
| lardman | dbus to the applet | 17:46 |
| DESiBELi | and it's not available via file? | 17:47 |
| lardman | it can be read from the chip directly, just let me look for the code | 17:47 |
| DESiBELi | ok | 17:48 |
| lardman | though the output is processed not raw | 17:48 |
| pupnik | It ought to be visible though /proc, but i don't think it is | 17:49 |
| lardman | http://www.mail-archive.com/maemo-users@maemo.org/msg01755.html | 17:49 |
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| lardman | http://www.arava.co.il/matan/770/retu-adc.c | 17:49 |
| DESiBELi | nice! | 17:50 |
| DESiBELi | thanks :) | 17:50 |
| lardman | np | 17:50 |
| lardman | grab the header file too: http://www.arava.co.il/matan/770/user_retu_tahvo.h | 17:51 |
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| * ttuttle can't wait until his N770 arrives! | 20:06 | |
| ericz | haha | 20:09 |
| ericz | see, we could've gone to TX to get them, only now we have no idea where they are | 20:10 |
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| ttuttle | ericz: /me snaps fingers. "Darn!" | 20:10 |
| ericz | heh | 20:10 |
| ||cw | yeah but who really wants to go to texas in the summer | 20:11 |
| ericz | yikes, yeah | 20:12 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Exactly. I mean, jeez, it was in the 90's here (Massachusetts) yesterday... it's gotta be bad in Texas. | 20:12 |
| ericz | it's 95 here :/ [virginia] | 20:12 |
| ttuttle | ericz: Ugh. I hope you have airconditioning. | 20:13 |
| ericz | of course! | 20:13 |
| ||cw | we're having a wonderfull cool spell, 86 | 20:13 |
| ericz | our power bill's going to be nuts, it's like 65 in the house | 20:13 |
| ||cw | scattered thunderstorms though | 20:13 |
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| ttuttle | ||cw: Thunderstorms are fun. | 20:14 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: (Well they're fun, except if you have DSL.) | 20:14 |
| ||cw | I've been in texas when it was 116, you can't even stand to be in the pool for more than an hour or so | 20:14 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Oh man, that sucks. I would just dig a huge hole and crawl into it, and then once I cooled off a little dig a bigger hole back to a cooler state. | 20:14 |
| ||cw | don't need to dig a hole, just just in a crack in the ground | 20:16 |
| TimRikerOLS | any maemo folk at OLS this week? | 20:17 |
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| suihkulokki | some kernel people most likely | 20:18 |
| konttori | Everyone already seen the iphone keyboard technology video? http://www.apple.com/iphone/usingiphone/keyboard_medium.html | 20:18 |
| ttuttle | konttori: Wanna copy it, or hate it | 20:18 |
| ttuttle | konttori: (that was supposed to be a question, but I hit enter instead :-\) | 20:19 |
| konttori | I love the magnifying glass. It's a great idea | 20:19 |
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| konttori | also, the text correction is a very nice idea | 20:20 |
| konttori | although I'm not sure if it really works | 20:20 |
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| konttori | but the greatest point is the dynamic target area. I truly love it. It could be done even better, but that seems like a really good idea. | 20:21 |
| konttori | Oh, by the way, I just released uktube 0.4. | 20:23 |
| konttori | https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/1676/UKMP-1.3-uktube0.4.deb | 20:23 |
| konttori | It's a Very sweet update. It supports now also dailymotion pages. There's a new button for easier and faster pasting of the url as well as a new drop down for playing already downloaded clips from the mmc. | 20:24 |
| etrunko | TimRikerOLS: k-s (gustavo barbieri) is there | 20:24 |
| etrunko | not maemo | 20:25 |
| Enok | Where to get jed or some other text editor than vi on N800 | 20:25 |
| etrunko | Enok: maybe leafpad | 20:26 |
| etrunko | http://downloads.maemo.org/product/leafpad | 20:26 |
| keesj | whill this work on the 770? http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/27/sandisk-intros-6-8gb-microsdhc-cards-4gb-m2-card/ | 20:26 |
| Enok | Butbut it has GUI | 20:26 |
| Enok | Need something to use trough ssh | 20:27 |
| etrunko | Enok: ok | 20:27 |
| etrunko | keesj: with the proper adapter and the SDHC patched kernel, it should work | 20:27 |
| keesj | so the 770 was not microSDHC. very confusing that SD stuff :p | 20:28 |
| etrunko | keesj: there is only sd and sdhc | 20:28 |
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| etrunko | where hc stands for high capacity | 20:29 |
| ||cw | 770 is onr rs-mmc | 20:29 |
| keesj | but the casings differ | 20:29 |
| ||cw | only* | 20:29 |
| etrunko | sd are up to 2gb | 20:29 |
| ||cw | no sd at all | 20:29 |
| etrunko | and sdhc >= 4gb | 20:29 |
| keesj | I do have a 4 gig sdhc card in my n800, I just wondered if it would work on the 770 with this smaller card | 20:30 |
| etrunko | Enok: in this case you don't need more than vi | 20:30 |
| etrunko | :) | 20:30 |
| etrunko | keesj: oh, you were talking about 770 | 20:30 |
| ||cw | Enok: many nano is available. vi works for me though, as rare as I need to use it | 20:30 |
| etrunko | keesj: sorry. only mmcs for 770, as ||cw said | 20:31 |
| Enok | vi feels quite odd after got used to jed/emacs, need to learn yet another set of keyboard commands | 20:32 |
| zuh | EviL | 20:32 |
| ||cw | Enok: what are you using a command line editor so much for? | 20:32 |
| keesj | did others recieve " Additional questions about your Nokia N800 purchase " I am not sure it's authentic :p | 20:32 |
| ||cw | keesj: check the smtp headers, see where it came from | 20:33 |
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| Enok | Just though it'll come in handy when doing some programming/tweaking | 20:34 |
| Enok | Of course I can do it all on pc and transfer later | 20:34 |
| pupnik | does anybody program for maemo in something other than vi? :) | 20:35 |
| keesj | crescomhosting.fi ! | 20:35 |
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| Brenduh | hello i'm on the 770 now :) | 20:37 |
| pupnik | congrats, Brenduh | 20:38 |
| Brenduh | ty | 20:38 |
| pupnik | welcome to the family | 20:38 |
| pupnik | "We're a happy family" - The Residents | 20:38 |
| Brenduh | ths is great | 20:39 |
| Brenduh | irc screenis tiny | 20:39 |
| pupnik | you can change font size | 20:40 |
| Brenduh | do u know where i can find yahoo and msn messengers? i can'r fnd the at the maemo site | 20:41 |
| pupnik | i think 'gaim' can do that, but it has a new name i can't remember | 20:41 |
| ttuttle | pidgin! | 20:41 |
| ttuttle | Are there any interesting alternative input methods for the N770? | 20:41 |
| Brenduh | thats right, ty | 20:42 |
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| Brenduh | going to go play, ty! | 20:44 |
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| ttuttle | ok | 20:44 |
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| jiippana | hello! | 20:50 |
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| jiippana | do you know if there is crontab or similar available for the n800? | 20:51 |
| ericz | woah, it just hit 100 fahrenheit :( | 20:52 |
| jiippana | i tried to search for pointers from the forums but had no luck | 20:52 |
| jiippana | 12.8 Celcius here | 20:52 |
| ericz | 100F - 37 celsius | 20:52 |
| ttuttle | ericz: Nice. | 20:52 |
| ttuttle | ericz: Well, it's 93F at NOAA here. | 20:53 |
| ericz | 12.8 celsius = 55F, i wish it was 55 here | 20:53 |
| ttuttle | ericz: And 94F where I'm working. | 20:53 |
| ericz | my hard drive's 100.4 F, is that high? | 20:54 |
| ttuttle | ericz: Nah, my old one tended to hover between 40 and 60C, which is higher. | 20:54 |
| ericz | woah, haha | 20:54 |
| ericz | mine's never gone over 40C | 20:56 |
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| Enok | zile looks like fine editor | 20:58 |
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| edistar | can someone post what the /etc/resolv.conf has to look like? | 21:06 |
| edistar | can someone post what the /etc/resolv.conf has to look like? | 21:07 |
| Sulis | um...that will really depend on your isp | 21:08 |
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| Sulis | should have some things like this | 21:09 |
| Sulis | nameserver 123.45.67.89 | 21:09 |
| jiippana | ok seems there's the dbus/alarmd api that could be used for scheduling tasks instead of cron | 21:10 |
| ericz | search isn't required in resolv.conf, is it? | 21:10 |
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| jiippana | are there applications using dbus/alarm that could be used to schedule shell tasks? | 21:11 |
| Brenduh | can someone help me? I'm trying to install pidgin. I got it to show up as an installable item, but when I try to install it it says parts are missing | 21:11 |
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| unique311 | ogg.vorbis | 21:14 |
| unique311 | maemo does? | 21:14 |
| unique311 | support | 21:14 |
| unique311 | ? | 21:14 |
| pupnik | yes get the tremor libs | 21:15 |
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| pupnik | pupnik.de/libvorbisidec1_1.2.0-1_armel.deb | 21:15 |
| pupnik | or from somewhere else | 21:15 |
| unique311 | i did | 21:16 |
| unique311 | i installed this.. | 21:16 |
| unique311 | now i'm trying to get this cool little python player to run... | 21:16 |
| unique311 | and it complains about ogg.vorbis | 21:17 |
| unique311 | now when i comment out the ogg.vorbis it runs... | 21:17 |
| unique311 | but doesn't play the test file.. | 21:17 |
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| unique311 | Traceback (most recent call last): | 21:18 |
| unique311 | File "timplayer.py", line 19, in <module> | 21:18 |
| unique311 | import ogg.vorbis | 21:18 |
| unique311 | ImportError: No module named ogg.vorbis | 21:18 |
| pupnik | i have no idea how python can interface with c libraries | 21:18 |
| pupnik | oh, then you need the ogg.vorbis module | 21:18 |
| unique311 | guess i have to wait on konttori | 21:18 |
| unique311 | ok whats the difference between the module and the stuff avail for maemo | 21:18 |
| nilsatchara | I recently flashed my 770 with SU-18_2006SE_3.2006.49-2_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin, but now I can't find an openssh deb package that will work. openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb and the 3.8 one both complain of being incompatible with the current software. Any hints? | 21:19 |
| pupnik | c libraries are generally not useable by... say... lisp, or BASIC, or python, AFAIK | 21:19 |
| pupnik | nilsatchara: instalilng from the application manager/ | 21:20 |
| pupnik | ? | 21:20 |
| pupnik | unique311: google python+"ogg.vorbis" | 21:21 |
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| jani | i think there's a tool that can create a wrapper for python -> c libraries .. | 21:21 |
| Brenduh | when trying to install gaim, I'm getting an error that packages are missing and it mentions: hildon-libs0>=0.14.11-1 | 21:21 |
| lmoura | unique311, http://ekyo.nerim.net/software/pyogg/index.html | 21:22 |
| eng2 | is there any way to run java applets on the n800? | 21:23 |
| unique311 | thanks | 21:23 |
| edistar | Sulis: doesn't the resolv.conf need to change when I switch AP? | 21:24 |
| ttuttle | Has anyone thought about writing a "context-aware" terminal, where once you select a command, it knows the possible arguments and allows you to type them easily? | 21:24 |
| Sulis | edistar: well, strictly speaking it doesn't need to, but i would expect it to if the AP is connected with a different ISP | 21:25 |
| ttuttle | Oh, and... is there any progress on multimedia in hacker 2007 for the N770? Will it ever have sound? | 21:25 |
| nilsatchara | pupnik: The maemo.org openssh.install script registers with the application manager correctly but doesn't put an entry in for openssh (or ssh, for that matter). Going straight to the website (ftp.infradead.org/pub/maemo/openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb) is where I get the incompatibility error. | 21:26 |
| pupnik | i am guessing that the package maintainer needs to be informed of this | 21:27 |
| pupnik | to work around, try downloading the .deb and using dpkg -i openssh_4.2p1-1_arm.deb | 21:27 |
| nilsatchara | thanks, I'll try that | 21:27 |
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| Brenduh | ok, I've found it. If I go here: https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=278&release_id=678 what do I do? Download each file one by one? Then which one do I run? | 21:28 |
| pupnik | hah, lots of files | 21:30 |
| pupnik | start with pidgin_2.0.0-1nix2_armel.deb | 21:30 |
| pupnik | then add emotes, sounds if you want | 21:30 |
| pupnik | and the protocol (yahoo, etc) you want | 21:30 |
| Brenduh | when I click that and click install (the first one) I keep getting the message unable to install some packages are missing | 21:31 |
| pupnik | check the log for details | 21:31 |
| Brenduh | I tried, I can't find anything :/ ... sorry I'm a newbie | 21:31 |
| pupnik | ok you're using the application installer program? or installing from a command-line | 21:32 |
| Brenduh | I'm clicking download then open | 21:32 |
| pupnik | ok then that opens the 'application manager' or whatever it's called :) | 21:33 |
| KaylaKaze | I've got my maemo 2.2 dev environment all set up, but in the SDK emulator sort of thing, the submenus (like tools and extras) don't work (they pop up for a few microseconds, then close). Has anyone heard of this issue before and know of a solution? | 21:33 |
| pupnik | somewhere there is a 'view log' button, but i don't have it in front of me right now | 21:33 |
| Brenduh | got it | 21:33 |
| pupnik | i haven't seen that KaylaKaze ... but you can also run programs from the command line in the SDK, and they will start up -- you just won't have the window manager | 21:34 |
| pupnik | Brenduh: it should tell you the name of the missing package near the bottom | 21:34 |
| Brenduh | couldn't stat sour package list http:/idefix.go-nix.ca packages (/var/lib/apt/usr/bin/dpkg-deb -f /var/tmp/pidgin_2.0.0-lnix2_armel.deb | 21:35 |
| Brenduh | then four failed messages | 21:35 |
| Brenduh | sour = source | 21:35 |
| KaylaKaze | do I run commandline stuff just by typing it in to scratchbox while the SDK is running? | 21:35 |
| pupnik | KaylaKaze: yeah. of course Xephyr has to be running, and your display environment variable set correctly | 21:35 |
| KaylaKaze | yeah | 21:36 |
| pupnik | anybody have an idea for Brenduh? I don't understand the error message | 21:36 |
| Brenduh | says no such file or directory | 21:36 |
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| ttuttle | Is there any particular benefit to me in running hacker edition of IT2007 on my N770 instead of the included IT2006? | 21:38 |
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| pupnik | i'm testing it right now. you can see discussion on hacker edition on the internettablettalk.com forums, ttuttle | 21:39 |
| pupnik | in some ways it feels a bit slicker. but i've encountered a lot more headaches with lack of software that works with this version | 21:40 |
| KaylaKaze | woot still hasn't sent out the units yet (at least not mine) :-( I was hoping to get it before my D&D game sunday so I could use it as my character sheet | 21:40 |
| Brenduh | mine i'm using right now is f rom woot | 21:40 |
| Brenduh | i never got a message it was sent out | 21:41 |
| KaylaKaze | Well, I just checked my order page and it wasn't on "shipped" yet | 21:41 |
| Brenduh | I live in arkansas (woot is in texas) so I get it pretty quick | 21:41 |
| Brenduh | mine isn't either | 21:41 |
| KaylaKaze | ah, ok | 21:41 |
| KaylaKaze | maybe I'll get mine today or tomorrow then | 21:41 |
| Brenduh | man, if I could just get this instant messenger to work... that is why I got it | 21:42 |
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| KaylaKaze | Has anyone used the latest 770 build of Xournal and knows if it's still really slow and barely usable like some comments I've read said about it? I'm planning a project of similar nature and it'd be much easier to just build on the Xournal sourcecode than make it all from scratch if Xournal is pretty decent. | 21:44 |
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| pupnik | what is xournal? | 21:46 |
| unique311 | something that don't seem to want to work... | 21:46 |
| unique311 | what i think i'm looking for in maemo.. | 21:47 |
| pupnik | well note to OS2007 Hacker Ed. owners - do not upgrade to the bora mplayer - it no workee on the 770 | 21:47 |
| unique311 | a descent sketch app | 21:47 |
| pupnik | a sketch app that goes from a higher level to a lower one? | 21:47 |
| unique311 | timplayer is working now.. | 21:47 |
| pupnik | :P | 21:47 |
| Sho_ | my god, all that petty fighting on the ITT forums is hard to bear | 21:47 |
| unique311 | its an python ogg vorbis player.. | 21:47 |
| Brenduh | yes! I got it to work | 21:49 |
| Brenduh | I had to change bora to mistral ... didn't notice that | 21:49 |
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| pupnik | yeah Brenduh bora is 2007, mistral is what you want on the 770 | 21:49 |
| pupnik | os2006 | 21:49 |
| ttuttle | Is there any particular benefit to me in running hacker edition of OS2007 on my N770 instead of the included OS2006? | 21:50 |
| Brenduh | ty for helping with this pupnik | 21:50 |
| pupnik | ttuttle: are you a 770 hacker yet? | 21:50 |
| pupnik | glad to Brenduh | 21:50 |
| ttuttle | pupnik: No, I don't have the device yet. | 21:50 |
| ttuttle | pupnik: Does it add any major features? | 21:50 |
| ttuttle | Oh, and how much of the hardware on the N770 is stupidly closed? | 21:50 |
| pupnik | not that i can tell | 21:50 |
| ||cw | ttuttle: newer app and lib support | 21:50 |
| KaylaKaze | this isn't good. no cascasding menus in any maemo program work in my sdk | 21:50 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: But that's it? | 21:51 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Is OS2006 still supported by most apps? | 21:51 |
| pupnik | yes | 21:52 |
| ttuttle | Okay. | 21:52 |
| Brenduh | well pooh, the program works but when I click 'connect' i get "missing protocol plugin | 21:52 |
| ttuttle | So the only real purpose of hacker OS2007 is to test stuff on the N770 that will run on the N800? | 21:53 |
| pupnik | some members of the community started screaming and hollering when nokia said they wouldn't provide an OS upgrade to 2006, so they released a semi-finished OS (2007) for the hackers who demanded it | 21:54 |
| ||cw | ttuttle: the "not everything works and some things will crash" warning on hacker ed are enough to keep me away. I want to USE mine, not just play with the OS | 21:54 |
| ttuttle | pupnik: Ah. I assume Nokia isn't going to finish it for them? | 21:55 |
| ||cw | maybe if they get really board | 21:55 |
| ||cw | bored? | 21:55 |
| ttuttle | pupnik: I'm sorta disappointed. I expected a Linux-powered device to be relatively open, but I'm finding that all of the fun N770 hardware is accessed in a non-standard way by proprietary binaries. | 21:55 |
| pupnik | I'm using it, and i am having fun with it. But i have to mix apps from 2006 and 2007 to get them working | 21:55 |
| ||cw | I'm sure nokia will accept patches though, and release an update eventually | 21:55 |
| pupnik | ttuttle: can't be helped. hardware manufacturers forced that | 21:55 |
| ttuttle | pupnik: /me grumbles. | 21:56 |
| KaylaKaze | it was workign fine in the 3.1 sdk :-( | 21:56 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Really? | 21:56 |
| ||cw | ttuttle: eventualy could be a very long time, but why wouldn't they accept patches? | 21:57 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Because they have better things to do, like make new products. | 21:57 |
| pupnik | ttuttle: it rules. i never ported apps before in my life and i've been having so much fun with maemo + scratchbox. | 21:57 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: I would wonder why they *would* accept patches. | 21:57 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Why take responsibility for something you can ignore? | 21:57 |
| nilsatchara | pupnik: I finally remembered what I did to get openssh to work before: apt-get install ssh | 21:57 |
| KaylaKaze | pupnik: Are you using Eclipse and Laika? | 21:57 |
| nilsatchara | Thanks for your help | 21:58 |
| pupnik | nope. vi | 21:58 |
| * pupnik sings 'laika virgin...' | 21:58 | |
| zuh | :D | 21:58 |
| KaylaKaze | I prefer coding in a nice IDE than a text editor anyday :-P I did all my PS2 coding with EditPadPro. Was not fun. | 21:59 |
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| ttuttle | So is there any good way to code on the Maemo itself? | 21:59 |
| KaylaKaze | not without a keyboard :-P | 21:59 |
| ttuttle | I've always wanted to write a Forth interpreter with a magic input method that knows what commands are available. | 21:59 |
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| KaylaKaze | I want to make a program that acts like a sheet of paper (like Xournal) but alows you to add edit boxes that can have spreadsheet-like formulas | 22:00 |
| guardian | i want a pony ! | 22:01 |
| ttuttle | I want my #$%^ N770 to get here. | 22:02 |
| KaylaKaze | I want mine too | 22:02 |
| guardian | :) | 22:02 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: woot? | 22:02 |
| KaylaKaze | since I'll probably have to develop with CPU transparency to it since my menus don't work in the sdk | 22:02 |
| KaylaKaze | yep | 22:02 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze ;-) | 22:02 |
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| KaylaKaze | I'd never even heard of them until I saw the woot. I'd been wanting somethign like this for years | 22:03 |
| KaylaKaze | (though I wouldn't have paid over $150 for it) | 22:03 |
| suihkulokki | ttuttle: only hardware that is closed is wlan and battery charging.. | 22:04 |
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| qgil | ttuttle: you seem to be so sure about your assessments on Nokia and maemo :) | 22:06 |
| pupnik | suihkulokki: can you help lardman get headers to the dsp kernel? | 22:06 |
| KaylaKaze | are open programs supposed to show in the left hand column? I think I've got a couple things open but they're not there and I have no clue how to access them otherwise | 22:06 |
| qgil | ttuttle: "how much of the hardware on the N770 is stupidly closed?" - generally Nokia has a non-stupid rason to have things open or closed | 22:07 |
| pupnik | KaylaKaze: yes | 22:08 |
| qgil | however, if you find a component stupidly closed please file a bug explaining why and we will discuss | 22:08 |
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| qgil | ttuttle: "I expected a Linux-powered device to be relatively open, but I'm finding that all of the fun N770 hardware is accessed in a non-standard way by proprietary binaries." | 22:09 |
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| ttuttle | qgil: Okay, that was an exaggeration. | 22:09 |
| qgil | ttuttle: maemo and the tablets are relatively open: 90% of the code is open source | 22:09 |
| konttori | unique311: why don't you use gstreamer? | 22:10 |
| qgil | 770 hardware can't be called standard as you would call PC desktop/laptop hardware (and even these need closed binaries in many cases to run) | 22:10 |
| konttori | that way you can play ogg easily after installing ogg on the device | 22:10 |
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| ttuttle | qgil: Okay, I'm looking at the os2007on770 page. It says that osso-interaction-server, ke-recv, mediaplayer-daemon, mediaplayer-ui, osso-mediaengine, metalayer-crawler, osso-hss-control, libmediaplayer, osso-mvi, osso-browser,opera-{adapter,eal,dynamic}, osso-ic, osso-dsp-modules-rx-34, bt-firmware, and gstreamer-hantro are all closed. | 22:11 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Now I can understand that some codecs are simply proprietary, and you don't want to risk distributing source code... but what about the mediaplayer itself? | 22:12 |
| Daniellion | id love to try the update to the os but. i just got the 2006 working and finally after weeks dialing my anoyingly uncooperative vx6700 | 22:12 |
| Daniellion | what i need is a image backup of the internal ram.. any ideas? | 22:12 |
| nomis | ttuttle: there are even more trivial examples that are closed for whatever reason. | 22:12 |
| ttuttle | nomis: Like what? | 22:12 |
| ttuttle | qgil: How much of it is open-source but developed completely by Nokia? | 22:13 |
| nomis | ttuttle: some of the applets for the desktop. | 22:13 |
| ttuttle | nomis: Is there a list somewhere? | 22:13 |
| ttuttle | qgil: (You still there?) | 22:13 |
| qgil | yes, I need some time to write :) | 22:14 |
| nomis | ttuttle: dunno. | 22:14 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Sure, no problem. | 22:14 |
| nomis | ttuttle: the thing is that for nokia the question is not "why is this closed?", but "why should we open it?" | 22:14 |
| * nomis not a Nokia employee btw. | 22:15 | |
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| ttuttle | nomis: Why? Look at the Linux desktop! It's all open, and it's benefitted greatly. | 22:15 |
| qgil | ttuttle: Nokia is a company that invests resources in an applications like the media player. Nokia thinks that the right way to release that software that has created is not with a free license. You might disagree, but this is not a stupid argumen t | 22:15 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Aren't there plenty of open-source media players? | 22:15 |
| qgil | ttuttle: Nokia has invested a lot of resources in open source development as well, and the open source community is benefiting from it | 22:16 |
| Daniellion | it has a version of mplayer yes? | 22:16 |
| sxpert | qgil, it's just a ridiculous argument *g* | 22:16 |
| ttuttle | qgil: (I don't mean to demean the one that comes with it, but is it reinventing the wheel?) | 22:16 |
| Daniellion | or is that not the same mplayer im thinking of | 22:16 |
| qgil | ttuttle: not with a UI ready to work on tablets the day the 770 was released | 22:16 |
| unique311 | konttori its an application i just decided to compile...found it on the python wiki page... | 22:16 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Okay. | 22:16 |
| konttori | what kind of app is it? | 22:16 |
| ab | qgil: much like Nokia has benefited from free software | 22:16 |
| unique311 | a music player. | 22:16 |
| unique311 | called timplayer.. | 22:17 |
| konttori | were you able to compile it? | 22:17 |
| qgil | sxpert, why is it ridiculous? | 22:17 |
| unique311 | well actually there was no need to compile the player.. | 22:17 |
| unique311 | just the dependencies | 22:17 |
| nomis | ttuttle: (please don't ask me to explain nokias position, I don't know the actual reasoning, except for quims talk at Linuxtag) | 22:17 |
| ttuttle | nomis: I won't. | 22:17 |
| konttori | unique311: good luck! | 22:17 |
| qgil | ab, of course! Nokia is not complaining about how it benefits from open source, but Nokia hasn't got bad feeling about its contribution to free software either | 22:17 |
| unique311 | no need for luck.. | 22:18 |
| nomis | and in Nokias position I probably wouldn't even touch mplayer with a long pole. | 22:18 |
| rhys | why not? | 22:18 |
| rhys | nomis, ? | 22:18 |
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| ttuttle | qgil: Is the microphone accessible using OSS or ALSA or ESD or ARTS or something like that? | 22:18 |
| sxpert | qgil, my reasoning is that, apart from the patent-laden codecs from hell, there's not much in a media player app that warrant not being open | 22:18 |
| ttuttle | qgil: This page http://maemo.org/community/wiki/enablemic/ says it's not. | 22:18 |
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| nomis | rhys: a) I suspect that the legal issues regarding the proprietary codecs are very complicated. | 22:19 |
| sxpert | ttuttle, there should have been a micsrc gstreamer plugin, if you ask me | 22:19 |
| ttuttle | qgil: I sorta agree with qgil. I would think (I may well be wrong) that it would be easier to pick up lib{xine,mplayer,...} and stick a new UI on it. | 22:19 |
| KaylaKaze | ttuttle: that one voip program uses the mic | 22:19 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: Yeah, but is that program open source? | 22:19 |
| unique311 | konttori, http://creationix.com/OpenSource/TimPlayer/ | 22:19 |
| qgil | sxpert, while this might be true in 2007 it wasn't that clear in the time a 770 had to be released, I guess | 22:19 |
| KaylaKaze | I don't know | 22:19 |
| rhys | nomis, what does the n800 use for video? | 22:19 |
| KaylaKaze | I thought it was | 22:19 |
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| konttori | I agree that the nokia player is so simple there should be no probelm compiling something opensource if you really need to develop your own. | 22:19 |
| rhys | ive looked at canola | 22:19 |
| konttori | unique311: yeah, I had a look at the screenshots. | 22:20 |
| sxpert | qgil, they could have evolved the license(s) over time for the appropriate bits, I suppose | 22:20 |
| rhys | nokias media player isn OSS/ | 22:20 |
| rhys | ? | 22:20 |
| nomis | rhys: codecs licensed by the respective owners. | 22:20 |
| zuh | sxpert: I use just kilikali & mplayer for my media, haven't missed the mediaplayer UI at all... ;) | 22:20 |
| sxpert | zuh, hah, well :D | 22:20 |
| nomis | rhys: i.e. people you can have a contract with. | 22:20 |
| qgil | look, the general principle now is that platform components need to be open whenever possible and shared with the community and even competitors while... | 22:20 |
| zuh | sxpert: And as a bonus I can actually listen to / watch formats not officially supported :P | 22:21 |
| qgil | Nokia builds the competitive advantage on great hardware and cool applications/services people love and want to have in their hands - the latter can be open or closed | 22:21 |
| KaylaKaze | I jsut wish I coudl figure out why my SDK won't work right! grr! I don't know if it's a SDK thing or an Ubuntu thing. 3.1 seemed to work fine, ut I'e had to reinstall ubuntu since I installed that. | 22:21 |
| nomis | rhys: the other thing is that I strongly suspect that mplayers code quality sucks. | 22:21 |
| ttuttle | qgil: What about the mic thing? | 22:21 |
| qgil | sxpert opening sourc code is not just about relicensing | 22:21 |
| rhys | i love mplayer on my main machine.. | 22:22 |
| ttuttle | sxpert: qgil is right. It's gotta be release-quality, and free of company secrets. | 22:22 |
| ||cw | mplayer is awesome, and mencoder as well | 22:22 |
| qgil | sxpert you need to work in your code to make it usable in an open source way, you need to document mor and better, you need to be prepared to receive contributions and have a community around it | 22:22 |
| rhys | about the microphone, how does gizmo work then? | 22:23 |
| qgil | sxpert all this extra work is sometimes justified (see the current email client versus the modest email client that is coming) | 22:23 |
| ttuttle | qgil: What about the mic thing. | 22:23 |
| ||cw | ttuttle: IT2006 has the mic driver | 22:23 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Is it open source? | 22:23 |
| qgil | but in some other cases... well, there are priorities and not time/money to push everything at the same time | 22:23 |
| ||cw | i don't really care, it works | 22:23 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: Okay. | 22:23 |
| ttuttle | ||cw: What framework does it use? | 22:23 |
| qgil | if the closed media player bothers you, just install another one | 22:23 |
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| qgil | the mic thing | 22:23 |
| ||cw | ttuttle: whatever the rest of the tablet uses i imagne | 22:23 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Okay, the media player thing is fine with me. I understand. | 22:24 |
| nomis | rhys: I use mplayer regularily as well. However, when used from the commandline it spits lots of scary stuff and it crashes frequently on some streams as well. | 22:24 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Is the tablet accessed directly in X or in GTK? | 22:24 |
| rhys | nomis, for once, the ignorance of GUIs is bliss. | 22:24 |
| qgil | mmm well, I don't know the exact details, I would prefer that you ask in maemo-developers so the right people can answer | 22:25 |
| ttuttle | qgil: About the mic thing? | 22:25 |
| nomis | rhys: I just take that as hints that the code is mediocre. | 22:25 |
| qgil | however, isn't this rlated to the DSP thing? | 22:25 |
| ttuttle | qgil: What? The mic thing? No. I'm talking about just plain audio input, like with ALSA. | 22:25 |
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| rhys | nomis..i just bought my n800 today. it ships out tommarow morning. 225$. | 22:25 |
| rhys | new. | 22:25 |
| ttuttle | rhys: Nice. | 22:26 |
| rhys | I was practicly screaming about it. IT RUNS LINUX!!!!!!!!!! | 22:26 |
| qgil | ttuttle: while I can answer questions about openness and strategy, I'm not the best person to ask about technical details of the maemo platform - sorry for not covering as much | 22:26 |
| ||cw | I'd prefer mplayer only print to console a short stream summary and the status line while playing, with a switch to enable the current spam | 22:26 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Oh, that's fine. | 22:26 |
| rhys | its like an iphone. only better. no phone contract. no "no option for this" and its customizable, bash script able, LINUX!!! | 22:27 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Hmm... I've gotta say, it's one of the coolest devices I've seen, regardless of licensing. | 22:27 |
| rhys | damn damn damn. LINUX!!!!! | 22:27 |
| ttuttle | qgil: A coworker of mine has an N800, and it's just beautiful. | 22:27 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Yesterday I sounded like rhys sounds now. | 22:27 |
| qgil | oh, there was one question left about open source development made by Nokia | 22:27 |
| rhys | LINUX!@! | 22:27 |
| ||cw | rhys: you know a lot of devices run linux... | 22:28 |
| rhys | :D | 22:28 |
| Gwak | Well the iphone is BSD :-) | 22:28 |
| rhys | ||cw, actually i do. i have a NGW100 reference design in my truck right now. AVR32. | 22:28 |
| qgil | well, the main way Nokia has approached open source development is to contirbute directly upstream or push whole components also in upstream | 22:28 |
| rhys | gonna play with that eventually. | 22:28 |
| ||cw | rhys: what's sexy is that the nokia's are loosely debian based | 22:28 |
| rhys | apt is nice, debian is not. | 22:28 |
| ttuttle | qgil: That is good. | 22:28 |
| ||cw | what's not good about debian? | 22:29 |
| rhys | ||cw, i use zenwalk linux. slackware based. arch now and again. | 22:29 |
| nomis | rhys: (AVR32) Oooh, nice. I need to get one as well. | 22:29 |
| ||cw | slack is just a bsd wannabe | 22:29 |
| rhys | ||cw, seen zenwalk? | 22:29 |
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| rhys | i actually would try freebsd, but the kernel causes instant crashes on my lappy. | 22:30 |
| qgil | ok, got to do other things but... please make sur your most serious and well argumented complaints end up in http://bugs.maemo.org , either as bugs or enhancement requests | 22:30 |
| qgil | IRC and mailing list are ok but, you know, so easy to forget | 22:30 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Thanks! | 22:30 |
| ttuttle | qgil: (Do you come here often?) | 22:30 |
| qgil | well, no :( | 22:31 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Oh. Sorry to take so much of your time with ranting then. | 22:31 |
| rhys | nomis, check slashdot. someone just posted a SBC flash drive based on an avr32 processor | 22:31 |
| qgil | at some point I discovered that th mor I followed every channel, the less I could work on actual stuff | 22:31 |
| qgil | and at the end the best favour I can do to people like you is do my work :) | 22:31 |
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| pupnik | and i thank you for it qgil | 22:32 |
| pupnik | i forgot, what do you work on? | 22:32 |
| qgil | ttuttle: you ranting is apprciated because it is frank, we just need to make sure that people are bothered about the right things so we can push the debate to new levels, together | 22:32 |
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| qgil | pupnik: my role is product manager of maemo - the development platform | 22:32 |
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| pupnik | wow coolness | 22:32 |
| rhys | oh. | 22:33 |
| Daniellion | very cool | 22:33 |
| rhys | qgil, are you in nokia employ? | 22:33 |
| qgil | of course, this is why in some occasions I need some extra seconds to think what I'm writing :) | 22:33 |
| Daniellion | qgil: have a question. is there a way to use the imaging app to back up a ram image? | 22:33 |
| Daniellion | not just restore one? | 22:34 |
| nomis | rhys: nice. | 22:34 |
| qgil | Daniellion: sorry, don't know the answer - product managers are generally not developers, and the other way round | 22:34 |
| Daniellion | I assume you guys have a tool to make an image to distribute. Any chance that utility will see the light of day | 22:34 |
| Daniellion | Ahh | 22:34 |
| Daniellion | rats | 22:34 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Well, I'm always happy to go on philosophical rants. ;-) | 22:34 |
| qgil | ttuttle: you definitely will find me there :) | 22:35 |
| ttuttle | qgil: Basically, the more stuff I have code to hack on, and the more stuff that works with or the same way as existing code, the better. | 22:35 |
| qgil | I'm following rligiously maemo-developers mailing list | 22:35 |
| rhys | nomis, a friend of mine works doing embedded thermastats. he gots a bunch of atmel products now to build embedded boards. gave me this one. Supports up to a SVGA tft monitor, has usb, 2 10/100 ethernet jacks, jtag, 2 audio outputs. | 22:35 |
| ttuttle | qgil: How high-traffic is it? Should I subscribe? | 22:35 |
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| rhys | its like 3x3 inches. its begging for a carputer. | 22:36 |
| pupnik | i hope all you new 770 owners hunker down and install stratchbox+maemo and get into the *real* fun side of it. Porting and improving the apps you want. | 22:36 |
| qgil | ttuttle: 1. alignment with th Linux desktop and upstream projects is core part of our strategy | 22:36 |
| qgil | (even if sometimes we are slower than you'd wish) | 22:36 |
| qgil | 2. maemo.-developers is a list I recommend to anybody interesting in hacking in maemo | 22:36 |
| rhys | gah. ships tommarow. i want it -right- now. LINUX! | 22:36 |
| qgil | I'd say that it has a good quality and low noise ratio compared to other open source related mailing lists | 22:37 |
| pupnik | qgil: are the intel MID devices using and improving maemo, or just forking/stealing code? | 22:37 |
| rhys | qgil, is there OpenOffice functionality for maemo? as in a "documentstogo" kinda app? | 22:37 |
| pupnik | heh... i will not ask more | 22:37 |
| ||cw | rhys: other than abiword and gnumeric? | 22:37 |
| rhys | nvm | 22:37 |
| qgil | pupnik: Intel (and Ubuntu) and others are collaborating in the context of th GNOME Mobile and Embedded initiative | 22:37 |
| ttuttle | qgil: How much support is there at Nokia for keeping up support for the N770? | 22:37 |
| qgil | however, there is not such concept as stealing in free software, isn't it | 22:38 |
| rhys | ||cw, thats what i use on my desktop ffs. | 22:38 |
| keesj | I trieds to read the text input these on the n800 but it failed :( | 22:38 |
| Daniellion | i heard someone got gnome running on it ;) | 22:38 |
| KaylaKaze | I want to know why I'm the only one in the freakin' world to get this SDK going in this weird condition.grrr | 22:38 |
| ttuttle | qgil: I mean I'm sure someone will always be there to support it on their own, but it's much better if it has support in terms of resources. | 22:38 |
| keesj | Daniellion: did you see the evas demo? | 22:38 |
| qgil | ttuttle: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/356 - a comment at the end says that we are on holidays and all what we said was blah bla, but I can tell this is not true | 22:39 |
| rhys | what is evas? | 22:39 |
| Daniellion | evas demo? | 22:39 |
| rhys | i know its part of e17 | 22:39 |
| Daniellion | link? | 22:39 |
| rhys | and they plan to port all their stuff to embedded, or are making it scale very very well.. | 22:40 |
| keesj | eves this !! http://www.rasterman.com/ | 22:40 |
| rhys | i just didnt understand what the demo showed | 22:40 |
| qgil | following http://planet.maemo.org is another good advice to i.e. see all those cool demos | 22:40 |
| keesj | even | 22:40 |
| rhys | so it will run full e17 | 22:41 |
| qgil | ok, speaking of GNOME I need to go and give a littl push to the new website - http://gnome.jardigrec.eu (this is /me by night, sometimes) | 22:41 |
| keesj | no, but evas it pretty far I would say | 22:41 |
| keesj | rhys: what part did you not understand? ( http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2007/06/23/edje-demo-on-n800-application-launcher-mockup/ ) here is the url | 22:43 |
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| rhys | keesj, what part of e17 is evas? | 22:43 |
| keesj | evas is a canvas, that is used a lot in e. | 22:44 |
| KaylaKaze | screw it. I'm gonna install 3.1 and see if THAT one works | 22:45 |
| keesj | THe idea is that you describe the behaviour/animations much like flash I would say , only cooler :p | 22:45 |
| keesj | apparently rasterman has the e desktop running, only also he does not know how to enable the keyboard thing / | 22:45 |
| pupnik | well ubuntu 'stole' from debian in the sense of using it as a base, making a fork and not backporting developments to debian | 22:46 |
| keesj | for me this is clearly the e desktop http://www.rasterman.com/files/e17-n800-2.jpg | 22:46 |
| rhys | so like the vx9700 (i think), its a cellphone that runs its menu and UI entirely on adobe flash. so..evas is like the flash environ where you can make a UI? | 22:46 |
| dragorn | rhys: evas is a compositing/render environment | 22:47 |
| rhys | so yes. | 22:47 |
| dragorn | Sort of. It's kinda-sorta-handwavey like XGL/XComposite/Cairo all rolled up | 22:47 |
| keesj | there is also some scripting (edje) but that I did not understand | 22:47 |
| dragorn | if i recall from years ago when I looked at it | 22:48 |
| Daniellion | i have the vx6700 now i use it as a modem for the 770 | 22:48 |
| Daniellion | ;) good use for windows mobile ;) | 22:48 |
| rhys | Daniellion, my college is entirely wifi covered. Noowhere I go doesnt have wifi. | 22:49 |
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| Daniellion | my problem is my work uses ttls | 22:55 |
| KaylaKaze | I don't know how I'm supposed to design software when I can't even use cascading menus, stupid POS SDK | 22:55 |
| Daniellion | so i cant get on our wifi netowrk | 22:55 |
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| rhys | ttls? | 22:58 |
| rhys | oh | 22:58 |
| rhys | time to go | 22:58 |
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| ttuttle | Anyone here use woot before? Do you know any tricks for getting them to ship your package faster? | 23:03 |
| Daniellion | TTLS tunnling TLS protocall | 23:03 |
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| KaylaKaze | supposedly, they've already shipped, just not updated the pages | 23:08 |
| KaylaKaze | someone was saying they've already got theirs from woot | 23:09 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: You're shitting me. | 23:09 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: That's impossible. | 23:09 |
| KaylaKaze | woot is in tx and they're in AR | 23:09 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: Ah. | 23:09 |
| ttuttle | KaylaKaze: I think they use cheaper shipping, and then rig the page so it looks like it only takes 3 days when it really takes many more. | 23:11 |
| KaylaKaze | well, I've ordered soemthign fromt hem before and it didn't take very long | 23:12 |
| KaylaKaze | it could be 'cause they recently switched to new software or soemthing | 23:12 |
| KaylaKaze | grrr! I just want to make my simple virtual paper program! is that too much to ask! but no! this stupid SDK has to go and be all screwy | 23:13 |
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| pupnik | KaylaKaze: sorry to hear it. I've not heard of that problem before :/ | 23:15 |
| KaylaKaze | apparently no one has which therefore means there's no way to fix it | 23:16 |
| pupnik | well in those cases, i use the uneducated car mechanic approach to fixing | 23:16 |
| pupnik | swapping out components | 23:16 |
| KaylaKaze | except there's nothing to swap out | 23:17 |
| KaylaKaze | it just plain doens't work. no errors, no noghing | 23:18 |
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| pupnik | different version of the rootfs, different xephyr | 23:19 |
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| KaylaKaze | what rootfs? | 23:20 |
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| blkhawk | lo | 23:20 |
| pupnik | the maemo version installed in the scratchbox environment | 23:21 |
| KaylaKaze | well, Ic an't very well change versions of that or it won't work on an actual unit | 23:22 |
| pupnik | what are you running btw? | 23:22 |
| m-vo | qgil, doing tech support again? :-D | 23:23 |
| KaylaKaze | hmmm... maybe if I design a program in eclipse using menus I can run it with the debugger... | 23:23 |
| KaylaKaze | 2.2 | 23:24 |
| m-vo | qgil, you said that when we (Nokia) want to open some code, it needs to be properly documented and there needs to be a community around it. | 23:24 |
| qgil | m-vo, this is what tech support has become | 23:24 |
| m-vo | I agree that if Nokia is to benefit from opening the code, a community is needed, but the code must be open first before the community can appear. | 23:24 |
| qgil | m-vo, let me find what I said :) | 23:25 |
| blkhawk | m-vo: some groups come into being because the code is not open | 23:25 |
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| blkhawk | say XBox or PSP homebrew | 23:26 |
| ttuttle | blkhawk: But you want the kind of devs who come because there's code to hack, not to complain about the lack of code. | 23:26 |
| m-vo | Luckily, the maemo community is thriving, but we could be better at integrating with it. | 23:26 |
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| blkhawk | ya | 23:26 |
| qgil | m-vo: "you need to work in your code to make it usable in an open source way, you need to document mor and better, you need to be prepared to receive contributions and have a community around it" | 23:26 |
| blkhawk | I learned with the A780 that there is nothing worse than a company that dangles the promise of OS in front of you like a carrot | 23:26 |
| qgil | = to be prepared to have a community around it, not to have it befor opening the code | 23:26 |
| m-vo | Ahh, sorry. "need to be prepared to have a community". | 23:27 |
| blkhawk | meas like nothing gets done fast | 23:27 |
| m-vo | Yes, very good, I was reading too fast. Sorry. | 23:27 |
| m-vo | Are we prepared? :-) | 23:28 |
| m-vo | I would say so. | 23:28 |
| blkhawk | I wanted to ask whats the best way to write an mono-gtk app for a N770 or n800 without having an actual N770 or n800? | 23:28 |
| qgil | m-vo: depends on how you look the bottle half full/empty | 23:28 |
| qgil | looking at public bugzila I could conclude no, we are not :P | 23:28 |
| m-vo | :-) | 23:28 |
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| qgil | I guess the right answer comes component by component | 23:29 |
| suihkulokki | all the whining about closed source components, yet so little contributions to the majority code that is actually already open source | 23:29 |
| blkhawk | qgil: as long as the bottle isn't broken...... | 23:29 |
| qgil | the Modest client are doing it the right way | 23:29 |
| m-vo | we are prepared since we have the bugzilla, but yes, we don't make good use of it (I don't, at least.) | 23:29 |
| qgil | Hildon is probably doing also the right steps | 23:29 |
| qgil | other closed components are not that ready yet, but overall I would say we ar progressing | 23:30 |
| m-vo | I should pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org (and less attention to non-community things). | 23:30 |
| qgil | for some peopl this progress might looks slow, I would say the speed is right | 23:30 |
| qgil | if we consider that the first tablet was presented just 2 years ago, and where we are now... | 23:31 |
| m-vo | Yes. | 23:31 |
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| qgil | m-vo: I'm working behind the scenes to make sure developers like you pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org - pity that the summer came to Finland because the cake was quite ready - I hope to have good news in august-september | 23:32 |
| pupnik | for me the most frustrating thing is how slow i am with my own projects | 23:32 |
| suihkulokki | qgil: btw one pet rant.. the insulating of devels from commnunity via bugzilla and it's anonymous contributors is just pure crack | 23:32 |
| m-vo | But the maemo community appears a bit fractured, no? For example, the question by blkhawk about mono-gtk; it's too hard to find all the pieces. | 23:32 |
| suihkulokki | s/anonymous contributors/anonymous role persons/ | 23:32 |
| infobot | suihkulokki meant: qgil: btw one pet rant.. the insulating of devels from commnunity via bugzilla and it's anonymous role persons is just pure crack | 23:32 |
| m-vo | qgil, excellent. | 23:32 |
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| Brenduh | jani are you here ? | 23:34 |
| m-vo | foo | 23:34 |
| m-vo | s/foo/bar/ | 23:34 |
| infobot | m-vo meant: bar | 23:34 |
| m-vo | neat! | 23:35 |
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| m-vo | s/neat!/probably annoying in the long run/ | 23:35 |
| infobot | m-vo meant: probably annoying in the long run | 23:35 |
| pupnik | !help | 23:35 |
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| qgil | suihkulokki: if I undrstand you, yes, maybe. But compare this to other corporate channels of fedback and get conclusions yourselve | 23:36 |
| pupnik | i have gotten significant help from nokia core developers. never seen that before. | 23:36 |
| qgil | suihkulokki: it is fine that Nokia gets compared to other open source projects when looking at maemo, but we can't forget that Nokia is a global corporation, with global policis, global competitors and so on | 23:37 |
| qgil | at a maemo level we have to find a compromise between two worlds with (until now) very few intersections, and I'd say all in all we are not doing that bad | 23:37 |
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| m-vo | Also, Nokia's contribution to open source are quite big, but not always very visible. | 23:38 |
| suihkulokki | qgil: IBM, sun, etc manage to have real people responding in their OSS projects.. | 23:38 |
| pupnik | it'd be nice if other companies also made products using maemo | 23:38 |
| qgil | suihkulokki: aren't we real people? | 23:38 |
| m-vo | For example, Hildon is treated more and more as just another Open source project and peopla start saying that Nokia selected Hildon for the Internet Tablets. | 23:38 |
| qgil | m-vo is real as well, I can tell :) | 23:39 |
| m-vo | sometimes I am even complex. | 23:39 |
| pupnik | either that or Nokia has some high-level top-secret chatbot AI | 23:39 |
| ab | qgil: yep, we are not real people, we are real persons | 23:39 |
| pupnik | wow, that is correct | 23:40 |
| qgil | in maemo-developers (and maemo-users too) you also get many @nokia.com persons answering | 23:40 |
| qgil | sur, it can be improved but well, not that bad | 23:40 |
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| qgil | infobot: why arn't you correcting my zillion mispellings? | 23:42 |
| suihkulokki | qgil: sure :) but I mean communications such as: https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=474 | 23:43 |
| qgil | suihkulokki: thre Maemo QA is answering you in 2006 and I'm answering you in 2007 - isn't this an improvement in terms of real persons? ;) | 23:44 |
| qgil | well, not "you", but anyway | 23:45 |
| qgil | suihkulokki: this situation will probably/hopefully improve even more with the bugs.maemo.org components reorg and maintainers we are pushing slowli slowly (but I think firmly), as said befor with "I'm working behind the scenes to make sure developers like you pay more attention to bugs.maemo.org..." | 23:48 |
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| keesj | is the tranparent xterm keyboard still avaiable somewhere? | 23:57 |
| pupnik | is that readable/> | 23:58 |
| keesj | :p no it's tranparent | 23:59 |
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