IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2007-05-25

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zbowling|n800like advant go or plucker but n800ized00:02
zbowling|n800using mono and gtk# for rapid dev00:02
zbowling|n800mono beats java and python everyday of the week00:04
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zbowling|n800in fact python and java run on mono already making them biotches... i think its funny hearing about people getting java on maemo when we did it via mono already and we do it better because we have an arm jit and is intrupted on arm (embedded versions)00:08
zbowling|n800java is intrupted on arm00:08
zbowling|n800you could even use on maemo00:10
zbowling|n800if you are a sadomasicist00:11
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zbowling|n800hildon# and osso# and maemo# rock00:12
zbowling|n800so its everyones duty if you hear anyone say java to slap them and say mono00:13
zbowling|n800slap them silly00:14
Juhazshould we shout praises for almighty microsoft too?00:14
zbowling|n800only if you are wanting to confuse people00:15
unique311java runs in mono00:15
unique311pardon my french00:15
zbowling|n800see ikvm.net00:15
zbowling|n800its more for compatability00:17
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unique311can install mono on the n800..00:18
unique311and run java on it?00:18
zbowling|n800you have to copy ikvm after you install00:20
zbowling|n800ikvm is a mono library... pretty simple00:20
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zbowling|n800it coverts java bytecode to cli bytecode on the fly00:22
unique311i'll follow the instructions on the site..00:23
zbowling|n800and uses gnu classpath as the java classpath00:23
unique311i want to use this app called salling clicker and their a .jar file for install on the device  thats going to be use as the remote00:24
zbowling|n800funny part is we are faster then java for most things00:24
unique311not to install to run00:24
zbowling|n800ahh yah.. ikvm has a tool to convert it on your desktop first the upload the result + ikvm libs00:25
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zbowling|n800i work at TI (in the educational/productivty dep. on the calculators) and i've been working on mono for the omap for our stuff but when i come how i get to work on poorting that code to work on maemo00:28
zbowling|n800optomized the jit in mono for arm core in the omaps... we use just about every feature00:30
zbowling|n800even our softfloat uses some omap tricks00:31
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unique311so conert the .jar file i have to ikvm?00:36
unique311and be worry free00:36
zbowling|n800there is a tool00:37
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zbowling|n800using ikvm.exe it will convert on the fly, but its huge and needs lots of memory at first... ikvmc.exe converts ahead of time and generates a mono library or executable from your jar00:40
zbowling|n800use ikvmc and copy the result00:40
zbowling|n800use ikvmstub.exe against any mono/.net library and it will make a jar stub for the library you can comple against in java...00:42
mrflakeshello all, is anyone here familiar with pygame?  i am trying to figure out how to get my program to have an icon in the taskbar, as it doesn't get one automatically00:42
Suliswouldn't that be a DM issue?00:43
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unique311is it suppose to complain on first install00:53
unique311have to install the libs seperate00:54
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zbowling|n800a few.. for ikvm01:05
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Negencan anyone help me install aircrack on my n800?01:25
Negenill give u .50$01:28
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Negenor his head which ever u prefer01:28
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Negencan anyone help me install aircrack on my n800?01:30
penguinbaitI have not used it, is it a deb?01:31
Negenthere is a deb   but im trying my own01:32
Negengetting an unknown err01:32
penguinbaitnot sure what you mean, did you install a deb?01:32
penguinbaittrying my own access point?01:33
Negenno ... compiling my own version01:33
penguinbaitah, inside scratchbox01:33
Negenbut the log states wlan0 not present01:33
Negenyyet wlan0 is the default for all other apps im using01:34
penguinbaitis wlan0 connected to ap when you start aircrack01:35
penguinbaitdid you bring up the interface01:35
penguinbaitifconfig wlan0 up01:35
penguinbaitthis is all command line I am assuming?01:35
Negenyes... brb i think i fixed it01:36
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unique311zso you use ikvm from within mono?04:10
unique311this thing is killing me04:10
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Prez_is there an n800 channel not for developers, i mostly have usability questions, like, how to sync files between my minux laptop and n800 using bluetooth,07:26
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keesjPrez_: not really07:41
keesjwelcome anyway, there is a user mailing list ,07:42
keesjwhat is also the internet tablet talk forum. but if you use a linux labtop I guess that here is the place to get some help07:43
keesjonly I don't know anything about syncing with other than rsync07:44
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trevarthanxournal is awesome. so much better than maemopad+. i finally found a working copy of it for the n800 too. yay for not having to code it myself!08:08
trevarthangot my n800 back up to speed after that crash earlier today too. took about 5 hours to flash and reinstall all my applications. ugh. hope that doesn't happen again.08:12
trevarthananyone know how to make a usb backup of the flash image?08:12
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tigertmy xournal didnt draw anythign on screen10:19
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AD-N770good morning11:19
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mk8Hi to all ...11:38
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Jaffamorning, all11:53
melmoth_n800i really dislkethe feeling of this blueeetoth keyboardddd11:54
melmoth_n800isthe reaction time always sllow with bt keyboard,,,?11:55
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Mithrandiris there a reason why libhildon is called rather than just ?12:39
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mattsqzwhat is this nonsense..12:52
mattsqzcp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/etc/': Input/output error12:52
mattsqzcp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/home/user/.kde': Input/output error12:52
mattsqzcp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/home/user/.kderc': Input/output error12:52
mattsqzcp: cannot stat `/media/sda2/usr/local/share/man/man3': Input/output error12:52
inzmatt, dmesg probably tells you more12:54
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tigerta memory card named "sda2"?13:07
keesjyea! what device are you using?13:08
nomiswell, its just the mountpoint...13:08
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b0unc3good morning13:18
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dregathe article on how to use x11vnc to 'drive' the n800 from a pc is missing from the wiki.14:26
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dregaanyone seen or know were a copy of it might be?14:26
dpb_was it in the old wiki?14:28
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pulsar_any d devs around? i wonder if anybody has managed to get the dgcc/gdc frontend working for maemo14:37
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guardiananyone ever tried to compile istanbul on maemo ???
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melmothI m playing with the hildon filechooser widget in pygtk..I can select a file, but i don not understand how to change the device so its point to a memory card15:59
melmothany idea ?15:59
Juhaz"change the device"? the location the dialog is by when it opens?16:00
melmothnot the default (not now :) )16:02
melmothby defaut i have the "n800" device16:02
melmothand i was expecting the widget to cope with a click on it, and show me the memory card available16:02
melmothon its own16:02
melmothand well... it does not16:02
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i-nZHello. Where can I get a list of all available sources for nokia n800 ?16:10
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Okkoi-nZ: From the Internet16:11
||cwi-nZ: I odn't think that's possible as anyone can make a source.  most are listed wiht the apps in the application catalog on the wiki though16:12
i-nZwell I just added some "Extras" source when the installation asked if i want to16:12
i-nZso i thought there are unofficial-official repositories16:12
Okkothere are but anyone can make them16:13
i-nZe.g I wanted to install evince but it complained about libglade16:13
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inzi-nZ, nice nick ;)16:25
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i-nZinz:  :D16:27
i-nZmine is based on my name ;)16:27
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inzi-nZ, mine has evolved past that ;)16:29
i-nZanyway I just got my n800 today and I am still surfing around to figure out what are the information sources16:31
i-nZnext step will be to setup a dev env :)16:31
melmothJuhaz: i have postes a small testcase on maemo-developer that sort of show what i dont understand16:33
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Juhazmelmoth, ok, don't have a device here right now, but I'll take a look when I get home.16:49
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konttori(only for finnish people)16:52
konttoriBasically says that it's now legal in finland to make programs that remove CSS from dvds.16:52
konttoriSo, stay tuned for a dvd ripping enabled version of media converter this weekend ;)16:53
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pulsar_wooohooo! that was easy!
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pulsar_mono-develop is a pain in the ass btw. royale.17:01
sciboyIt's being a similar pain in the ass trying to get a N800 in australia.17:04
pulsar_is it? i got mine from amazon17:04
pulsar_i am thinking about writing a nice podcatcher client. gpodder does not suit me.17:05
sciboyYeah? Anything in particular that gPodder doesn't do?17:06
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pulsar_yep. beeing snappy :)17:06
pulsar_i dont know why, but the current port is fu*** slow17:06
pulsar_takes about one minute to start i.e.17:06
pulsar_and uses 100% cpu when downloading podcasts.17:07
pulsar_castget is a nice tool though17:07
pulsar_x-compiled it some time ago. actually it works pretty well.17:08
guardianbrowsing the bugzilla is depressing :( instead of getting bug fixed, you can follow the bug bouncing from one people to another: "reassigned to jp" -> "reassigned to mika" -> "reassigned back to jp" -> NO U ! :(((((17:09
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||cwI've had that happen to me, someone either thinks I'm supposed to, or even am capable, of fixing a bug that i'm neither17:20
guardianthis is shameful17:22
guardiandispute about who has the bigger dick, the one who wins marks the bug as fixed :)17:22
bilboeddon't forget to attach a picture of proof17:23
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guardianok enough for today17:23
guardianswitching to other dev project17:23
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guardianreally i expected something more professional from nokia17:27
guardianall i saw was "maemo qa claiming ownership", "bugball bouncing from on people to another", and people arguing who in the hierarchy can decide if a bug is fixed or not17:28
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* tigert looks17:33
`0660i think it's brave from nokia to handle all that in the public bugzilla :)17:33
`0660the other option would be to keep it inside the company, but that would not be so open17:33
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guardiansometimes it takes time to fix bugs, so far so good. it's just a pity when the whole process is slowed down by somehow off topic quarrels17:36
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tigertguardian: "qa claiming ownership" sounds like it gets sucked in the internal bugzilla and gets worked on17:36
tigertI know it sucks to then disappear from the outside view17:36
tigertand we try to fix that17:36
||cwXandros does that, they have the public bug tracker and an internal one.  when someone opens a bug, they validated it them open a bug on the internal that the end user can't see.  when the internal is fixed, the public is closes as well.17:36
tigertbut there's so darn many things to fix that it is not easy or fast17:37
X-Fadeguardian: This bug is actively worked on, as fas as I know..17:37
tigertguardian: this website thing is something quim is trying to fix all the time17:37
guardiani don't doubt it's actively worked on17:37
Okkowho's the Oskari they are talking about? :)17:37
guardianit's just demonstrate unprofessional handling17:37
X-FadeI'm sure Quim doesn't allow sucky/broken documentation to stay there long..17:37
tigertits just a a lot of issues popping up all over the place17:38
guardianthe result being my little person being frustrated :D but i'm sure i'm not the only one in this case17:38
tigertbecause theres the whole lot of content that is converted first and then you see it didnt work here or there?17:38
tigertand thus a crapload of things to fix :)17:38
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tigertguardian: well, do you want things to be more open or not?17:39
tigertguardian: look at gnome bugzilla for example17:39
tigertstuff like this does happen there17:39
tigertits human communication. sure, it could be handled face to face maybe17:40
guardiani won't pretend i know the perfect solution17:40
guardianif the internal bugzilla and the public one are really synchronized i have nothing against that17:41
X-Fadeguardian: You have to understand that there are a few different parties at play here. Documention writers, website admin, internal qa, document manager,external consultants..17:41
guardiani'm tempted to believe it's a huge task to achieve17:41
tigertits just that if you have more transparency in the process, also the times when people are unhappy will show17:41
tigertX-Fade: yeah17:41
tigertthat is what makes things complicated17:41
guardiannot to mention PGP ;)17:41
tigertthere are not just the guy who writes docs, the guy who maintains the web, the guy who does testing17:42
tigertbut teams of people doing that17:42
tigerteach having their good and bad days I suppose17:42
X-FadeYou just can't go in and fix things directly. Somebody has to sign off on it etc etc..17:42
tigertand thus things sometimes happen that team A has a deadline and team B does not know something they should and do things that pull rug from under team A's feet17:42
tigertor something17:42
tigertits just a big mess to deal with17:42
tigertits moving ahead and we have more thinking of the community also inside etc17:43
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tigertlike plankton is going to be in the sdk theme etc17:44
tigertand we try to use sardine ourselves too etc17:44
tigertto hack on the same dogfood we give to you :)17:44
tigertbut its so many things sometimes I just want to curl down and sleep =)17:44
tigertwhen I make the mistake of looking at the big picture of "nokia and community" :)17:45
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guardianthx for bothering explaining the situation17:51
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stuaartAnyone here have any experience using gpsd?18:12
stuaartI'm struggling to work out how to change the baud rate18:12
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trevarthanHello. Can anyone tell me how to make a backup of my currently running firmware via USB flasher?18:40
trevarthanIt would make me feel better if I had an entire image to restore to. It took me 5 hours to reinstall all of my applications last night after I got the white screen of death.18:41
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parttrevarthan: don't know any way to access the data via usb when the device doesn't boot18:54
nomistrevarthan: I suspect that Nokia has no interest in making the image data available via USB.18:56
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melmothbel orage19:13
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Juhazmelmoth, it looks like it's a "feature" of CREATE_FOLDER mode, it won't allow navigation by user, only creation of subdirectory in the preselected one.19:53
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melmothmhh, i must admit i havent try with NEW_FOLDER ...19:56
melmothi ll try that19:56
melmothbut the thing is..i would really like to be sure this is a new folder.. I guess i can check its content afterward though, and act if therea re other files in it already19:57
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melmothworks bette with SELECT_FOLDER indeed20:00
melmoththanks !20:01
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Skyrazeri could need some help on installing phonelink20:17
Skyrazerso i installed libgnokii, but i cant find the binary.. where should it be?20:17
Skyrazeri'm using os2006 and libgnokii220:17
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melunko_Hello there, anyone knows if there are any vnc server to N800?20:30
Skyrazeryes there are20:32
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melunko_Skyrazer: thanks20:34
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mk8Hi to all ..20:41
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Skyrazerok, gbye20:43
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trevarthanHmmmm... seems like if you can flash to the RAM, you should be able to pull from the RAM too using the flasher. Is that impossible?22:26
Juhazit might be possible but "you can do it the other way around" is no reason to assume that. and it's not RAM22:31
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trevarthanJuhaz: Oh yeah? It's not random access memory?22:39
trevarthanCan someone from Nokia please tell me if it's possible to download a flash ram image from the n800 to some other medium? Simple yes or no will be fine. Thank you!22:41
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Sulisi was wondering if the button on the mic part of the headphones actually controls anything, i see that it is registered as XF86Phone22:45
Disconnecttrevarthan: misusing terms and then getting picky with the people helping you is a good way to get them to wander off22:45
trevarthanDisconnect: he wasn't helping. Nothing he said was intended to be useful in any way.22:48
Disconnectactually, looked like he was trying to help from here. but since you've taken mindreading 101 and can speak on his intent with such authority, i'll bow to your superior whining and wander off myself..22:49
trevarthanDisconnect: I'm just trying to get an answer to a question. Sorry to bother you.22:50
Juhazno, it's not random access memory, since it's nand flash and is limited to block addressing22:51
nomistrevarthan: I still firmly believe that Nokia installed all kinds of bells and whistles to make this basically impossible.22:51
nomistrevarthan: you probably need to use JTAG to get a dump from the flash.22:51
trevarthannomis: I believe you. I would just like to hear someone from Nokia say it. That's all I want. Something definitive.22:53
nomistrevarthan: then ask Nokia.22:53
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trevarthannomis: I thought that was what I was doing. They don't have a presence here?22:53
`0660i don't think they have official presence here22:54
nomistrevarthan: there are some Nokia Employees here, but no official presence, no.22:54
`0660in other words, if you want answers here, you will have to be polite22:54
trevarthanI'd be satisfied with the word of an employee, so long as he knows what he's talking about. I'm not sure I know what "official" means.22:55
trevarthan`0660: look, I'm sorry if you all don't think I'm being polite. I thought Juhaz was taking an obvious snipe at me. I still do. I responded accordingly.22:56
`0660in this context it would mean that they would be forced to act polite to everyone22:56
* nomis sees no obvious snipe.22:56
ferulopeeeaaaace :)22:56
Juhaztigert is probably the most active nokia employee here and I doubt he knows about that either, being a GUI guy22:56
ferulotrevarthan: if this helps, I have never listened anything about RAM dumps22:57
trevarthanJuhaz: ok. I'll stop asking if no one knows. fair enough. I hope you can't blame me for persistence.22:57
Disconnectfyi many (most? and istr including the 770/800) embedded linux boxes can use the flasher to dump to/from RAM, for testing kernels or as a 2-stage flash method, etc. so - regardless of what you want to say about the definition of "access" - talking about dumping RAM is going to be confusing at best.22:58
Sulisand does anyone know if there are any hildonisations for python?22:58
feruloSulis: hildonisations?22:59
trevarthanDisconnect: I'm not sure whether you just said that "yes, you can download a flash image from an n800", or "no, you can't". Could you clarify?22:59
Sulisyep, so that you can hildonise a python gui22:59
feruloyeah Sulis you have python-hildon module23:00
feruloso you can create a hildon.window and so on23:00
Sulisi guess i should look for some documentation on this...23:00
Disconnecttrevarthan: i said "in most embedded applications, RAM and flash are not interchangable terms. especially relating to reading/writing data from the host". as far as what you can do on the nokia boxes (without soldering, presumably, and without a working OS) its pretty much limited to whatever flasher will do. so type ./flasher and see.. but if its not there, its unlikely to be possible.23:01
`0660trevarthan, i think you would already have got the answer if it was that simple23:01
feruloSulis: yup, it's on pymaemo.garage.maemo.org23:01
Sulisah, that's great, thanks23:02
trevarthan`0660: I don't know. I can't count the number of times I've asked questions for days straight before getting an answer. Persistence might be annoying, but it's useful. Sometimes the right people just aren't listening and so you can't be sure if you don't continue to ask. I am sorry for annoying everyone though. That's an unfortunate side effect.23:05
tigertJuhaz: yea, you are correct. I have no clue23:06
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tigertJuhaz: I bet daniels would know, if he doesnt tell when asked, then the information is not public23:06
tigertwe do have people on the channel from Nokia, there are things we can talk about and things we can not talk about23:06
tigertthere is no mystery to it - we'll just say its something we cannot comment on23:06
trevarthantigert: is this one of those things you can't talk about?23:07
tigertthe flash stuff?23:07
tigertI just simply have no clue about that23:07
tigertI do UI and pretty pixels23:07
trevarthanIs there anyone you could ask about it for me?23:07
trevarthansomeone who deals with the hardware or the boot loader would probably know.23:08
||cwtrevarthan: the linux flasher si a shell script isn't it?23:08
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Juhazit's not23:09
nomistrevarthan: you know, you could also use the Mailinglist. Lots of Nokians read the Mailinglist and it is more likely to get the question delivered to a knowing person.23:09
||cwhm, thought it was, not sure why i thought that23:09
nomisthat would be a better option than knowingly annoying people in here.23:09
Juhazif you're only interested in installed applications, rootfs should be all you need, and dumping that shouldn't be hard, since it's obviously mounted on the device and fully readable from userspace... "through usb" part might still not be possible, but if you have a working OS and can use memory card or network, ...23:09
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trevarthanJuhaz: that's a good point. I could always treat it like any other linux machine and use cpio to copy the file system.23:10
`0660annoying people tactic seems to work pretty good too ;)23:11
Juhazyou could probably dump even most of the rest through /dev/mtd* with a working OS, but getting it back would be another story entirely, since the flasher expects a specific format, which probably isn't a raw dump.23:11
trevarthan||cw: Wow. Does that do what I think it does?23:12
||cwit says it does what I think you want23:12
trevarthan||cw: I'll have to take a look at that tonight! Many thanks!23:12
tigerttrevarthan: ask daniel23:13
trevarthan`0660: I like to call it "communication". It's getting people's attention that can be difficult.23:14
tigerttrevarthan: well, since the flasher is not free software, I guess there is a reason for this23:14
tigertprobably the low level stuff is considered proprietary or such - I dunno.23:15
||cwJuhaz: right, it's a "Fiasco" package, but 0xFFFF can restore just certain pieces23:15
`0660i think there are better ways to reach goals23:15
tigertbut yeah23:15
tigertwe are not bad people23:16
`0660you could have just made a search with "flasher" on
tigertits just that many of us are busy, its hard to irc from work, and not everyone wants to hang around here after work hours :)23:16
||cwor on the maemo wiki23:16
trevarthantigert: yeah, that's why I asked a lot. Wanted to make sure it got exposure.23:19
tigertthe wiki has most of this too23:20
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trevarthan`0660: It's too bad you can't Mute someone like on Xbox Live. :) That would probably be useful.23:21
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`0660trevarthan, don't know about xbox live, but there's always /ignore, i just prefer education over suppression :)23:25
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tigert /ignore works pretty effectively :)23:26
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Mithrandiralso, if you have @ you can mute people. :-P23:31
trevarthanAh. Good to know. I knew I could get kicked. hopefully I won't get muted or ignored.23:32
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`0660trevarthan, you hope you don't get ignored? :)23:39
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unique311APPLE IIgs experience in here23:47
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