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| unique311 | hello | 04:17 |
|---|---|---|
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| unique311 | i want to add repos to my scratchbox bora installation....is it safe...and how do i go about doing so? | 04:28 |
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| dolfun | la | 07:15 |
| unique311 | i have good newssssss | 07:19 |
| unique311 | compiled gimp for n800 | 07:20 |
| unique311 | and it workss | 07:20 |
| unique311 | scratchbox armel | 07:20 |
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| dolfun | did you make install? | 07:26 |
| unique311 | yes | 07:27 |
| dolfun | and then run gimp-2.0? | 07:27 |
| unique311 | using it right now in scratchboc | 07:27 |
| unique311 | i ran gimp | 07:27 |
| unique311 | not 2.0 | 07:27 |
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| unique311 | theirs 2 executables | 07:27 |
| unique311 | gimp and gimp2.0 | 07:27 |
| unique311 | i ran gim | 07:27 |
| unique311 | its somewhat hildonized...but needs work... | 07:28 |
| unique311 | gonna zip it and upload it | 07:28 |
| dolfun | is your scratchbox bora? | 07:28 |
| unique311 | yes | 07:29 |
| unique311 | i think Pupnik tried it earlier for 770, and it showed black.. | 07:29 |
| dolfun | oops | 07:30 |
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| unique311 | lol | 07:30 |
| unique311 | it runs... | 07:30 |
| unique311 | i need to see if it'll run on my n800 | 07:30 |
| Pupnik | i compiled it in gregale | 07:30 |
| unique311 | ok | 07:30 |
| unique311 | bora is a go | 07:30 |
| Pupnik | is there a homepage for it? not a download page? | 07:31 |
| unique311 | so ok... now thats good and dandy...who hildonize this thing | 07:31 |
| unique311 | could check in a few for you... | 07:31 |
| Pupnik | ok just wondering | 07:31 |
| Pupnik | if they changed anything to standard gimp | 07:32 |
| unique311 | whopping 15MB | 07:33 |
| Pupnik | do you have time to try it out? | 07:42 |
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| unique311 | whiich? | 07:42 |
| Pupnik | gimp on the tablet | 07:42 |
| unique311 | yeah | 07:42 |
| unique311 | bout to bluetooth it to the n800 | 07:42 |
| unique311 | its hildonizing it i'm worried about..coding and moi are not friends... | 07:43 |
| Pupnik | a lot of things require keyboard | 07:44 |
| Pupnik | you said this was from a zaurus site? | 07:44 |
| unique311 | yes | 07:44 |
| unique311 | keyboard | 07:45 |
| unique311 | hmm | 07:45 |
| unique311 | did not think of that | 07:45 |
| unique311 | lol | 07:45 |
| mikemorrison | unique311: can you take a screenshot? | 08:03 |
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| user__ | danm...i interrupted the transfer and now my computer slowed down to slug sppeds.. | 08:06 |
| user__ | gotta hard reset | 08:06 |
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| user__ | <---unique311 | 08:07 |
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| Pupnik | user__: how responsive is the airbrush tool? can you sketch with it? | 08:16 |
| Pupnik | or does it lag too much | 08:17 |
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| unique311 | danmit | 08:24 |
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| Pupnik | unique311: how responsive is the airbrush tool? can you sketch with it? | 08:26 |
| unique311 | k | 08:27 |
| unique311 | had issues with my computer.. | 08:27 |
| unique311 | i'm transferring the folder right now to my n800 | 08:27 |
| unique311 | i'll tell you as soon as i got it setup | 08:27 |
| Pupnik | i think that will be a problem with the 770 | 08:29 |
| Pupnik | working with a tablet and airbrush is great, but when it lags, it ruins the usability | 08:29 |
| Pupnik | but there are still a million uses for gimp even without that | 08:30 |
| unique311 | airbrush tool.. | 08:30 |
| unique311 | hardly use it | 08:30 |
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| Pupnik | i think i found out why fceu sound stutters | 08:40 |
| unique311 | dude gimp hildonize somewhat nice in scratchbox... | 08:41 |
| unique311 | screenshot it for ya | 08:41 |
| Pupnik | that's cause it's gtk | 08:41 |
| unique311 | still transfering it to freaking my card.. | 08:41 |
| unique311 | its almost perfect | 08:41 |
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| Pupnik | for me, the 770 is almost perfect :) | 08:47 |
| unique311 | running gimp? | 08:47 |
| Pupnik | no as a device | 08:47 |
| unique311 | k | 08:47 |
| Pupnik | don't have much space free | 08:48 |
| Pupnik | let us know how much it takes on your / filesystem after you install | 08:48 |
| unique311 | well its 55mb unpacked | 08:51 |
| unique311 | so its huge | 08:51 |
| Pupnik | btw the gimp binary is actually a symlink to gimp-2.0 | 08:51 |
| unique311 | yeah | 08:52 |
| unique311 | i ran gimp-2.0 | 08:52 |
| unique311 | works same on scratchbox | 08:52 |
| unique311 | http://www.flickr.com/photos/unique0nez/461125252/ | 08:53 |
| unique311 | airbrush at work | 08:53 |
| unique311 | its 3 windows.. | 08:53 |
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| unique311 | the toolbar, the layers, and the actual canvas | 08:54 |
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| Pupnik | ls | 08:57 |
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| mikemorrison | with all those windows it must be a little annoying to use | 08:58 |
| unique311 | no | 08:58 |
| unique311 | that in scratchbox | 08:58 |
| unique311 | still have to test it out on the n800 | 08:58 |
| mikemorrison | yes i can see that.. hehe | 08:59 |
| unique311 | k, cross ur fingers | 08:59 |
| mikemorrison | in the scratchbox switching between windows is pretty fast. but on the n800 it is quite a bit slower so switching and forth would be annoying | 08:59 |
| mikemorrison | .. switching back and forth | 09:00 |
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| Pupnik | this drives me nuts, tak's build of fceu doesn't give me the same xsp doubling problems as my own compile | 09:04 |
| Pupnik | might be a problem with my build environment | 09:07 |
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| Tak | which build? | 09:24 |
| Tak | and what configure opts are you using with yours? | 09:24 |
| Pupnik | fceu-0.98.12.maemo5 | 09:25 |
| Pupnik | no config opts | 09:25 |
| Tak | using the debian scripts? | 09:26 |
| Pupnik | they break not finding sdl so i just ./configre && make | 09:26 |
| Pupnik | cleaning out the dir and re-unpacking | 09:26 |
| Tak | then you shouldn't be getting xsp at all... | 09:27 |
| ptman | wouldn't it be better to fix the breakage | 09:27 |
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| Tak | need at least --with-xsp | 09:28 |
| Pupnik | checking XSP_CFLAGS... -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=500 -DXTHREADS -DXUSE_MTSAFE_API -I/usr/X11R6/include | 09:28 |
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| ubulakifluff | hi | 09:28 |
| Pupnik | ok configure --with-xsp | 09:29 |
| Pupnik | diff Makefile Makefile1 | 09:29 |
| Pupnik | no difference | 09:29 |
| Pupnik | hi ubulakifluff | 09:29 |
| Pupnik | anyway Tak, here's a description of sdl sound | 09:30 |
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| Pupnik | from Nach, one of the real snes9x devs http://www.snes9x.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3186&start=40 | 09:30 |
| Pupnik | posted Tue, Mar 13 - about 3/4 down the page | 09:30 |
| Tak | meh, my opera is crashing | 09:31 |
| Pupnik | i can msg you his text about sdl audio if you want | 09:31 |
| Tak | sdl sound sucked so badly I wrote an esd driver | 09:31 |
| Pupnik | oh so your fceu isn't using sdl sound | 09:31 |
| Tak | no | 09:31 |
| ubulakifluff | I like to write a code that scrolls the area with pen drag (without visible scrollbars), I googled but can't find such a code. Where should I search? | 09:32 |
| Pupnik | darn his explanation sounded so plausible for the stuttering | 09:32 |
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| Pupnik | Tak do you have a IT2006 build environment? | 09:32 |
| Tak | the 770 is just too slow to handle the emulation, the sound emulation, the blitting, and the playback all at once | 09:33 |
| Pupnik | ok | 09:33 |
| Tak | it's almost perfect on the n800 | 09:33 |
| Pupnik | i'm curious whether someone else's build of ur-quan-masters would show the same effects i'm seeing | 09:33 |
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| Tak | yes I do - probably can't test until tonight (cdt) though | 09:34 |
| Pupnik | ok thanks | 09:34 |
| Pupnik | it's crazy, when i run your fceu and move the synergy x11 cursor over the doubled playfield | 09:37 |
| Pupnik | it flickers briefly down to non doubled but returns | 09:37 |
| Pupnik | when i run my build, i get all kinds of artistic effects, junk on screen | 09:37 |
| Pupnik | #gregale main. 3rd major stable release of maemo sdk in 2006 | 09:39 |
| Pupnik | cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm | 09:39 |
| Pupnik | Devkits: debian cputransp | 09:39 |
| Pupnik | CPU-transparency: /scratchbox/devkits/cputransp/bin/qemu-arm-0.8.1-sb2 | 09:39 |
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| Pupnik | ubulakifluff: sorry i don't know | 09:40 |
| ubulakifluff | tnx anyway | 09:40 |
| ubulakifluff | I should look GTKAdjustments I think | 09:41 |
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| zulla | Guys, check out http://www.umpcportal.com | 09:57 |
| zulla | Apparently, there's a Hildon-based x86 Linux distribution in the works | 09:58 |
| zulla | https://intel.wingateweb.com/published/UMGS003/UMGS003_100eng.pdf | 09:58 |
| Pupnik | great news zulla | 09:59 |
| Pupnik | getting intel behind it is huge | 09:59 |
| zulla | http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=480 | 09:59 |
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| zulla | Pupnik: Yeah, but I certainly hope that Nokia, Redflag and Intel will work together. I'd hate to see two different Hildon-based efforts going on. | 10:00 |
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| jku__ | Very interesting. | 10:11 |
| jku__ | Also notable is Intels term MID instead of UMPC: their definition of "MID" seems to be very, very close to 770/n800 | 10:13 |
| zulla | jku: Exactly. I wonder if "Internet Tablet" is somehow trademarked by Nokia, since Intel's effort appears to be pretty much the same thing. | 10:15 |
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| zuh | They seem to plan on using Hildon stuff, but try not to mention it too prominently :) | 10:22 |
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| gleitz | hi all | 10:23 |
| gleitz | is anyone familiar with pygtk on scratchbox? | 10:23 |
| keesj | Hi | 10:24 |
| gleitz | or, more generally, gtk in general? just wanted to know what specific packages should be installed to get gtk to work in scratchbox | 10:24 |
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| keesj | if you installed scratchbox using the installer scripts gtk/hidlon should work. | 10:25 |
| gleitz | hmm, i did use the installer script | 10:26 |
| keesj | there are also installation manuals on the maemo.org website that tell you how to install. | 10:26 |
| keesj | hmm actualy , I don't know enough to really help, I know hidlong is gtk based and I don't know if you could even install pure gtk on sbox | 10:27 |
| Pupnik | note: gtk2.0 is standard | 10:28 |
| gleitz | yeah i all seems rather straightforward | 10:28 |
| gleitz | wanted to get pygtk to work just for the ease of use | 10:28 |
| gleitz | i put the .desktop file in the proper locate, .py file in /usr/lib/hildon-home | 10:28 |
| gleitz | but when i try to add the home plugin within scratchbox it doesn't appear | 10:28 |
| gleitz | i bet it would work if i used the n800 device instead of the scratchbox, but it would be nice to avoid that | 10:29 |
| Pupnik | hmm, ssh to the device and see what is different | 10:30 |
| gleitz | difference is that all the files within the device directory are shared object files, not .py | 10:30 |
| gleitz | doubt that would make a huge difference, but it would be nice to see how an app that used pygtk installs itself | 10:31 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:34 |
| Pupnik | morning | 10:34 |
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| * keesj has a big | 10:41 | |
| keesj | the morning after effect | 10:41 |
| keesj | I wish it was just not monday morning.(celebrated my son's birthday) | 10:42 |
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| * Jaffa wonders if MIDLinux's more polished UI (according to the screenshots) will make it back to any Nokia devices. | 11:01 | |
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| * zulla wonders if Nokia knew about MIDLinux or if they are as surprised about it as he is. | 11:05 | |
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| roope | More polished? :D | 11:11 |
| roope | jaffa: could you show some links to that | 11:11 |
| roope | to the screenshots, I mean. | 11:11 |
| roope | The ones I've seen are a ripoff of iphone / canola / maemo combined poorly in photoshop. | 11:11 |
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| florian | good morning | 11:28 |
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| Pupnik | roope, referring to the candylike reflective appleish icons? | 11:38 |
| Pupnik | that's a design trend | 11:38 |
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| Pupnik | i just ordered a webspace for 99 cents a month - 25GB traffic | 11:39 |
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| * Pupnik is surprised how cheap hosting has become | 11:40 | |
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| konttori | I have to say that the top bar icons in the MIDLinux screenshot is nice and simplistic. | 11:41 |
| konttori | OTOH, they are a bit of a OSX ripoffs | 11:41 |
| konttori | http://blog.tokash.org | 11:41 |
| Pupnik | "The OS install footprint, though, is between 500MB and 1.5GB" | 11:42 |
| konttori | ;) | 11:43 |
| Pupnik | pics of devices here | 11:45 |
| Pupnik | http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=416 | 11:45 |
| Jaffa | roope: Ripoffs of iPhone and Canola aren't any problem to me if they result in a better UI. | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | roope: I just like seeing device/use-case specific designs (whether succesful or not), rather than squashed down desktop metaphors. | 11:49 |
| part | Jaffa: both are non-free software | 11:50 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:50 |
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| Jaffa | part: Like lots of Nokia's UI then, to "distinguish their product in the marketplace". | 11:54 |
| part | Jaffa: crap, really | 11:54 |
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| Jaffa | part: yup | 12:10 |
| zulla | roope: let's see how much of it is photoshopped. | 12:11 |
| zulla | http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/04/16/major-gnome-announcement-next-thursday/ - wonder if that's related? | 12:11 |
| Jaffa | zulla: even if it's a PS hackjob, it still sets a direction and a level of quality of what you can expect. | 12:13 |
| roope | jaffa: Are we now talking about the same screenshots? | 12:14 |
| * Pupnik is gathering moral courage to resume porting PocketSNES | 12:14 | |
| roope | http://www.umpcportal.com/gallery/v/redflag/ these ones? | 12:14 |
| roope | I fail to see the level of quality in them. :) | 12:14 |
| roope | http://www.umpcportal.com/gallery/v/redflag/midLinux.jpg.html that's simply awful, imho. | 12:15 |
| roope | Icons all over the place, graphics are are a ripoff, the text is too small, it's non-scalable etc. etc. | 12:15 |
| roope | Office, Voip, More, Date? | 12:16 |
| Jaffa | http://www.gtk-server.org/intro.html looks cool. | 12:17 |
| timeless | is garage svn for new projects working yet? | 12:18 |
| Jaffa | roope: point taken, although having the launcher horizontally where there's most space with proper thumb-oriented usage makes more sense than the use of vertical space and enormous menus scrolling a pixel at a time. | 12:19 |
| Jaffa | And it's a nice background picture :) | 12:19 |
| roope | Well, horizontal is two hand usage compared to vertical one, but yes, the scrolling is bad. | 12:19 |
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| roope | The only screenshot they currently have of a real application looks like maemo mapper. so i'd reserve my praise for actually seeing what they have done. | 12:21 |
| roope | and no, ripping off the iphone graphics and canola works isn't really cool. | 12:21 |
| roope | Apple won't also think that it would be very cool. Main-stream users would see "oh, it's an iphone ripoff" after seeing those. | 12:21 |
| roope | and people don't have positive reactions to recognizing ripoffs. | 12:22 |
| Jaffa | roope: can you use an existing Maemo/Hildon device with just one hand? | 12:22 |
| * Jaffa 's never really tried | 12:22 | |
| roope | well, some tasks yes, with the left hand. In theory at least. | 12:23 |
| roope | since the rocker is there, task launcher is accessible with the left thumb etc. | 12:23 |
| Jaffa | I'd be worried about dropping the device, but the N800 might be more rugged than it feels | 12:23 |
| glass | reading books is ok with one hand | 12:24 |
| glass | like | 12:24 |
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| glass | using the 5way button on 770 is doable with one hand if you hold it certain way | 12:24 |
| mk8 | Hi to all ... | 12:24 |
| konttori | TOp bar in this screenshot is much nicer than the one roope posted: http://blog.tokash.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/4/redskymidlinux.jpg | 12:25 |
| roope | And a lot less functional. :) | 12:26 |
| * konttori agrees with Jaffa that N800 / 770 is not usable with on hand. | 12:26 | |
| Jaffa | (in general) | 12:26 |
| Jaffa | Reading an ebook, as glass says, is doable - but that's about it. | 12:27 |
| konttori | roope: Well, it's missing the application name and the home button, but otherwise it's the same top bar | 12:27 |
| konttori | OTOH, Left bar is much nicer that the bottom bar pictured in the screenshot | 12:27 |
| * konttori just like the icon design in the top bar | 12:28 | |
| Jaffa | They could be praised for releasing (screenshots) early, and releasing (screenshots) often. | 12:28 |
| konttori | Simplistic enough for my taste | 12:28 |
| roope | I'd like to see one element that wouldn't be a ripoff from apple or maemo. :) But yeah. | 12:29 |
| roope | Those status icons look like apple icons. | 12:29 |
| roope | (which are good, yes) | 12:29 |
| roope | But I don't think that's ... very kosher even in open source to steal graphics like that. | 12:29 |
| roope | At least I wouldn't be releasing screenshots with commercial graphics. | 12:31 |
| roope | Even though it's early and often. ;) | 12:31 |
| Jaffa | :) | 12:36 |
| Jaffa | One of the screenshots seemed to contain an iPod IIRC | 12:37 |
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| konttori | roope: OTOH, they could choose kosher way and adapt the icons a bit but retain the idea of using one color icons | 12:39 |
| * zulla once again wonders what Linux projects in China the West never hears about. | 12:40 | |
| konttori | I think top bar icons are much better served in one color mode, as they are so small in pixel count and the idea is that they shouldn't be catching users attention when user is not interested in their contents | 12:41 |
| roope | konttori: I agree with that. | 12:41 |
| roope | (except the presence icon) :) | 12:41 |
| konttori | Or they don't have anything special to say (like battery almost over -> turn battery icon red) | 12:42 |
| konttori | yeah, presence icon might have some small colorind depending on the situation. | 12:42 |
| * timeless sighs | 12:43 | |
| timeless | is anyone here familiar w/ SVN management? | 12:43 |
| Jaffa | http://www.engadget.com/gallery/intels-mid-umpc-so-long-xp-vista-hello-linux/214488/ is interesting for not showing it as just photoshop: the top one in particular looks like Hildon Desktop (or some variant) with some different icons/configuration) | 12:47 |
| dev | timeless: what's the question? | 12:47 |
| timeless | i'm wondering about the maemocjk svn on garage | 12:48 |
| timeless | it has: | 12:48 |
| timeless | tags/ trunk/ wolfg/ www/ | 12:48 |
| timeless | wolfg/ has two directories named to match directories in trunk | 12:48 |
| Jaffa | http://www.engadget.com/gallery/intels-mid-umpc-so-long-xp-vista-hello-linux/214485/ also has apps you don't see on Maemo: Real Player icon, Google Maps app, a different Sylpheed port etc. | 12:48 |
| timeless | (no idea about their content, it's not really my job) | 12:48 |
| roope | That's the old maemo development skin, as far as I can tell. | 12:51 |
| roope | But yeah, it's exactly the same. | 12:51 |
| dev | timeless: maybe some branches from something in trunk | 12:53 |
| timeless | dev: isn't that the point of branchees/ ? | 12:54 |
| dev | timeless: if you follow "conventions" - yep, but there is no reason for not having a "sandbox" or even a "wolfg" dir for his personal branches. It is just a name. | 12:58 |
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| timeless | dev: it's just a pain if you happen to try to do anything automatic... | 12:58 |
| * timeless hates svn | 12:58 | |
| zulla | Those pics at Engadget are just taken from the Intel PDF, as well. | 12:59 |
| dev | timeless: no need to :-), svn is nice, but only as good as its users | 13:01 |
| timeless | dev: sorry, i don't have any experience w/ good users | 13:02 |
| timeless | just lots and lots of experiences w/ bad users | 13:02 |
| timeless | they're more than a dime a dozen | 13:02 |
| dev | welcome to the club ;-) | 13:03 |
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| timeless | i'm pretty sure i'm a foudning member :) | 13:06 |
| roope | btw, http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com/ | 13:08 |
| roope | we'll publicize that a bit more soon, but here's a preview. | 13:08 |
| * timeless wonders what it is | 13:08 | |
| roope | As the entry says, if you have any ideas/questions/comments/discussion topics for the blog, please give comments. | 13:08 |
| timeless | roope: does this mean it's open season on ui flaws? | 13:08 |
| timeless | if it is, i'll start writing them some sunday | 13:09 |
| roope | Well, it's open season for constructive public discussio on the ui. :) | 13:09 |
| roope | I'll probably write a separate entry like "Rant about applications to this entry". | 13:09 |
| timeless | roope: so public discussion, does that involve asking for new features? | 13:09 |
| roope | You can ask and propose everything. We're a bit limited in discussing some factors, but that's our problem. | 13:10 |
| roope | All ideas are naturally welcome. | 13:10 |
| timeless | um | 13:10 |
| timeless | speaking from 11months of expereince | 13:10 |
| roope | i.e. we can't really tell what is accepted to appear in the next releases. | 13:10 |
| roope | And it's a shame, but that's just the policy. | 13:10 |
| zuh | roope: I hope that page design is not reflecting the flexibility of the UI team ;) | 13:10 |
| timeless | almost all ideas are naturally unwelcome, or was that unnaturally unwelcome | 13:10 |
| roope | It's a wordpress ready template. :) We're doing the release soon thing with the blog also .:) | 13:11 |
| timeless | zuh: having seen the ui tean, but not the ui, i'd have to say i'm sure it *is* a reflection of their flexibility | 13:11 |
| roope | Well. | 13:11 |
| timeless | boy, my typing's bad today | 13:11 |
| roope | Perhaps I'll write an entry for that already. | 13:12 |
| zuh | I just don't get the "I want my page this wide period" designs... That'd look pretty sad on a wide screen. | 13:12 |
| timeless | zuh: looks fin in links :) | 13:13 |
| roope | zuh: well, a paragraph of a certain width is more readable than a wide one. :) | 13:13 |
| timeless | roope: that's a user's chioce | 13:13 |
| roope | But blame tigert, he chose the template. ;) | 13:13 |
| timeless | if the user has a 300' wide screen | 13:13 |
| jku_ | on any font size? | 13:13 |
| roope | Anyway, I don't think that's really relevant. We can change it on the fly. | 13:13 |
| timeless | and is watching it from the other side of a football stadium | 13:13 |
| timeless | then forcing the text to be cramped into a 1' wide area | 13:13 |
| timeless | is not good | 13:13 |
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| roope | Let's see if I can find a better template for it then. | 13:17 |
| timeless | good luck | 13:17 |
| roope | Wordpress has a rather limited amount of default templates. | 13:18 |
| roope | "A smooth two-column theme adorned with a banana. Very personal." Hmm... | 13:18 |
| timeless | heh | 13:18 |
| roope | Well, that's about the only 1 column theme that they have there. It'll have to do for now. | 13:19 |
| zulla | roope: http://www.plaintxt.org/themes/sandbox/ - then adapt that to your needs. | 13:20 |
| * zulla 's own wordpress blog is rather boring but he's working on it based on that Sandbox theme. | 13:20 | |
| roope | I don't think that the template is the #1 we should be putting our focus on now. :) | 13:21 |
| * timeless shrugs | 13:21 | |
| timeless | from my perspective, the first thing the ui team needs to do is get a consistent look and feel | 13:21 |
| roope | Ui team or ui theme? | 13:21 |
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| timeless | team. you said "we" | 13:22 |
| roope | from my perspective it doesn't matter a single bit. | 13:22 |
| roope | The device has 5 sets of graphical skins, for starters. | 13:22 |
| timeless | not the n800 | 13:22 |
| timeless | you must be imagining some other thing | 13:23 |
| roope | ok, 4 sets. I counted plankton as the fifth. :) | 13:23 |
| timeless | i'd count valentine's if we're going to count third party nokia | 13:23 |
| zulla | roope: sorry, but the 4 default skins show a questionable choice of design taste. | 13:24 |
| zulla | roope: both on 770 and n800... | 13:24 |
| timeless | zulla: it's a third party or two | 13:24 |
| timeless | this stupid nokia nseries design group | 13:24 |
| timeless | and then i believe the stupid group responsible for the nokia.com homepage for the rest | 13:25 |
| zulla | timeless: i'm speaking about the pre-installed themes that came with the original firmware. | 13:25 |
| timeless | you can't actually blame the ui team for the themes | 13:25 |
| timeless | zulla: yes | 13:25 |
| roope | Yes well, you can perhaps imagine the complexity of theme selection. | 13:25 |
| roope | or generation. :) | 13:25 |
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| timeless | zulla: fwiw, there are *worse* themes | 13:25 |
| zulla | timeless: there always are. | 13:26 |
| kkito | hello :) | 13:27 |
| timeless | actually, it's probably lunch timme | 13:28 |
| * timeless wonders when the last post gets sent | 13:28 | |
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| Pupnik | i want a flybook | 13:50 |
| Pupnik | on the other hand, a 770 does just about everything i want | 13:51 |
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| bergie | guys, downloads.maemo.org authentication works again | 14:14 |
| Pupnik | yay | 14:16 |
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| tigert | hmm | 14:21 |
| roope | tigert, people were critizing the fixed layout ;) | 14:22 |
| roope | it's not web kosher. | 14:22 |
| glass | i don't think it's bad | 14:22 |
| roope | since it's fixed. | 14:22 |
| roope | however... | 14:22 |
| * tigert starts to think fixed width is better | 14:23 | |
| tigert | but that is just a website style | 14:23 |
| glass | if it had no width limit it would look like crap.. | 14:23 |
| tigert | read it with your rss client | 14:23 |
| tigert | test.maemo.org is flex-width | 14:23 |
| tigert | and I am starting to not enjoy that | 14:23 |
| tigert | since it makes it very hard to make good layout inside the "container" | 14:24 |
| roope | perhaps we should put a dropdown there to people to select the template they like to see ;) | 14:24 |
| tigert | or just use their rss reader | 14:24 |
| tigert | lets not focus on the stupid details | 14:24 |
| tigert | I selected the narrow template since it makes things easier to read | 14:25 |
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| inz | I dig flex-width | 14:26 |
| Pupnik | hmm, kdrive has shm support | 14:26 |
| tigert | I do too, but its hard to do it well | 14:26 |
| inz | Yeah, sometimes it is. | 14:26 |
| roope | em-width would be good. | 14:26 |
| Pupnik | glass, now any apps for 770 that use shm for image blitting? | 14:27 |
| roope | so that that width would change depending on selected font size | 14:27 |
| glass | Pupnik: sorry no | 14:27 |
| Pupnik | s/now/know | 14:27 |
| inz | roope, I prefer to be able to choose the width by resizing my browser | 14:27 |
| bergie | http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/maemo_downloads_is_again_open_for_business.html | 14:27 |
| Pupnik | i suppose i should look at mplayer sources for fastest dislpay write implementation? | 14:27 |
| glass | probably | 14:28 |
| roope | i don't think thats good anymore, with tabbed browsing. | 14:28 |
| roope | i have lots of tabs open, i don't want to resize window manually. | 14:28 |
| glass | i want to keep my browser fullscreen | 14:28 |
| tigert | yeah | 14:28 |
| roope | since i need to resize back when going to next tab. | 14:28 |
| tigert | I keep my browser constant width | 14:29 |
| roope | so tabbed browsing i think has changed the rules somewhat. | 14:29 |
| tigert | for some sites its good to have flex-width | 14:29 |
| tigert | like web forums | 14:29 |
| tigert | but i dunno, as long as stuff is not forced wider it's ok | 14:29 |
| tigert | but for the content producer its much easier to design layout when the "size of the paper" is known :) | 14:29 |
| glass | "use 1024x768" is so 90's | 14:29 |
| tigert | I dont mean that | 14:30 |
| tigert | but rather than just be less than 1024 wide if possible | 14:30 |
| tigert | whether flex or not | 14:30 |
| glass | yeah but thats what it would be if it text was the width of the browser | 14:30 |
| tigert | as long as it doesnt force horizontal scroll its fine | 14:30 |
| tigert | yeah | 14:30 |
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| Pupnik | cool, running 3d games on a pc from a nokia would be possible | 14:50 |
| Pupnik | http://www.virtualgl.org/About/Introduction | 14:50 |
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| tigert | why on earth would you want to do that? | 14:53 |
| tigert | it's like "I run this game on Wine, it's almost playable!" - makes sense if you are a wine hacker | 14:53 |
| tigert | but not much for an end user | 14:53 |
| Pupnik | lol i know | 14:57 |
| Pupnik | Xshm is the shared-memory extension and has been around for years. It allows you to pass X protocol stuff in a shared memory segment | 14:57 |
| Jaffa | tigert: if you want to be a print designer, be a print designer - or use PDF. Blogs are designed to be *read*, so they should be as easy as possible to read - I know *lots* of people who increase font sizes due to very bad eyesight and fixed width designs break horribly badly. | 14:57 |
| Pupnik | dga allows for direct graphics access to a video card's frame buffer. | 14:57 |
| Jaffa | tigert: as you say, if you care that much your RSS feed would consist of an image for each entry as that's the only way to guarantee display format in that medium ;-) | 14:58 |
| Molagi | Pupnik would it be possible to run oblivion with n800 with that? :) | 15:01 |
| Molagi | that would be something | 15:01 |
| Pupnik | you can probably do it now with vnc | 15:02 |
| Pupnik | hmm maybe not | 15:02 |
| Pupnik | ok i see https://stage.maemo.org/svn/emdebian/target/trunk/xserver-kdrive/Xext/xf86dga2.c | 15:02 |
| Pupnik | but ld: cannot find -lXxf86dga | 15:03 |
| roope | i guess this is part of releasing the blog early. :) we can improve on it later. | 15:03 |
| Pupnik | i do have /usr/lib/libXrender | 15:05 |
| timeless | pupnik: just because files exist doesn't mean they're built.. | 15:06 |
| tigert | Jaffa: :) | 15:10 |
| mikemorrison | bergie: i still can't log in | 15:11 |
| tigert | Jaffa: just like some idiotic websites had full page gif | 15:11 |
| tigert | with text | 15:11 |
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| bergie | mikemorrison: we need to sync the user account list still, but older accounts at least can log in :-) | 15:11 |
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| bergie | I'll ping you when ferenc has done it | 15:11 |
| mikemorrison | ahh. how soon do you figure? | 15:13 |
| part | Has anyone had problems with the stupid empty packages with the sdk? | 15:15 |
| ssvb | hi, does anybody know what repository should be specified in .install file for OS2006? (mistral or gregale) | 15:18 |
| timeless | gregale is newer iirc | 15:19 |
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| Pupnik | i see mplayer has a special output driver nokia770 and can also use xv | 15:19 |
| inz | But mistral compiled most likely work for all mistral, scirocco and gregale | 15:20 |
| Pupnik | but it says no xvideo support for your card | 15:20 |
| inz | Which is why I use mistral roostrap to build packages | 15:20 |
| timeless | http://repository.maemo.org/ | 15:20 |
| timeless | seems to be fairly clear | 15:21 |
| Pupnik | part nope | 15:21 |
| ssvb | inz: So should I replace 'mistral' with 'gregale' in mplayer .install file? I'm pretty much confused | 15:22 |
| kaatis | intel "MID Linux-Based Software Stack" .. "RedFlag MIDINUX "1st Linux Distro for MID" https://intel.wingateweb.com/published/UMGS003/UMGS003_100eng.pdf | 15:23 |
| ssvb | inz: what problems can be expected if some apps get installed with .install files using 'mistral' and some using 'gregale'? | 15:24 |
| inz | ssvb, it all depends on what release you use on your device | 15:24 |
| inz | ssvb, if you have the latest release, it doesn't really matter, all should work just fine (even mixed) | 15:25 |
| ssvb | inz: I guess users may have any release, will application installer handle all the possible cases correctly? | 15:26 |
| ssvb | maybe someone from Nokia could give some advice | 15:26 |
| timeless | application insaller isn't amazingly clever, it's basically apt | 15:27 |
| timeless | so if apt is likely to mess up, application installer probably will too | 15:27 |
| tigert | plus AI won't remove conflicts | 15:27 |
| tigert | thus it will back off | 15:27 |
| tigert | ie, it plays safe | 15:28 |
| tigert | which is probably good | 15:28 |
| inz | ssvb, you will run into trouble if the user has older version than the repository is for | 15:28 |
| ssvb | for OS2007 everything is clear, maemo 3.0 is 'bora' and 3.1 is 'bora' as well, but OS2006 has a whole bunch of different repositories for minor bugfix releases | 15:28 |
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| ssvb | tigert: I just checked http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/maemo_downloads_is_again_open_for_business.html blog entry, Maemo Mapper uses 'gregale' for OS2006 in .install file, but mplayer still uses 'mistral', installing these two packages from single click install files is impossible because of that | 15:35 |
| bergie | ssvb: we're planning to split the app catalog to catalog per OS release | 15:35 |
| bergie | to solve these issues | 15:35 |
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| bergie | besides, I guess many apps have different release cycle for different OS versions | 15:36 |
| Pupnik_ | ssvb: do you understand how mplayer writes direct to framebuffer? | 15:37 |
| tigert | this bora vs gregale vs mistral stuff is very confusing anyway | 15:37 |
| Pupnik_ | i'd like to reduce overhead for blitting rectangles, for uae, snes9x, dosbo etc | 15:37 |
| Pupnik_ | *dosbox | 15:37 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: sure I do, I have developed that code :) | 15:38 |
| tigert | even the os2005 vs os2006 vs os2007 is | 15:38 |
| Pupnik_ | ssvb, since dga isn't there, i don't see how mplayer bypasses kdrive, any tips? or the file in the source i need to look at? | 15:39 |
| timeless | tigert: so, what's the post office url and how do i get hours? :) | 15:39 |
| Pupnik_ | btw mplayer checkout is freezing at mplayer/tags/1.0rc1-maemo.10/DOCS/xml/pl/containers.xml | 15:40 |
| timeless | pupnik: i just updated all of the garage roots i have about an hour ago | 15:40 |
| Pupnik_ | well that's ok i got the source trunk | 15:41 |
| timeless | i only have about 180 of them | 15:41 |
| Pupnik_ | :) | 15:41 |
| timeless | i'm missing probably nearly two dozen at this point :( | 15:41 |
| Pupnik_ | ah vo_nokia770.c | 15:41 |
| bergie | mikemorrison: try now | 15:43 |
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| ssvb | tigert, bergie: does it make any sense to have anything other than 'mistral' for OS2006 extras repository? Do newer releases introduce API changes? I just can't find compatibility notes for 2.x releases. | 15:43 |
| bergie | no idea, sorry | 15:45 |
| tigert | MDK: do you know? | 15:45 |
| timeless | tigert: we could probably find out, i suppose | 15:46 |
| tigert | thats why I asked mdk, because they've been working on the toolkit stuff | 15:48 |
| MDK | tigert, ssvb: on the hildon side, not really | 15:48 |
| timeless | ok, i've now seen a ui that is *dumbeR* than nokia's | 15:49 |
| timeless | Status: Copying Installer Files ... | 15:49 |
| timeless | Installing mgabyte 18 of 38 | 15:49 |
| timeless | (typo is mine, my system is lagging) | 15:49 |
| tigert | ok | 15:49 |
| MDK | tigert, ssvb: the mistral+ hildon API is same | 15:49 |
| tigert | timeless: please, can you stop bashing our ui all the time? | 15:49 |
| tigert | I know it has problems, like every UI | 15:50 |
| tigert | but its starting to be a bit old | 15:50 |
| tigert | to hear about it here all the time | 15:50 |
| tigert | MDK: so then apps built for bora or gregale should be compatible? | 15:50 |
| tigert | man, this is so confusing its not funny | 15:51 |
| MDK | ah no | 15:51 |
| MDK | I thought you're talking about 770 releases | 15:51 |
| MDK | bora is not compatible with mistral | 15:51 |
| MDK | it's to a certain extent | 15:51 |
| MDK | but not 100% | 15:51 |
| tigert | haha | 15:51 |
| tigert | or "haha" | 15:51 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: yes, it is right file, mplayer uses YUV colorspace but RGB should be the same, main problem is to synchronize concurrent access to framebuffer with xserver, that's why mplayer creates x11 window and does all that x11 stuff in this file | 15:52 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: I may try to write some short framebuffer usage guide if I find time for that and if anybody is interested | 15:53 |
| Pupnik_ | ssvb you don't need to spend much effort writing it.. just a textfile of some background info and links and things you discovered while working on it would be a big help | 15:54 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: you can check this link, it contains some of the information about framebuffer api: http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-March/009133.html | 15:57 |
| Pupnik_ | thanks! :) | 15:58 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: check omapfb.h file for all the necessary constants, pixel doubling is just a bit flag for screen update ioctl call, there is no such thing as enabling or disabling pixel doubling at the framebuffer level (it pixel doubling state is introduced in xserver, framebuffer itself is 'stateless' on Nokia 770) | 16:03 |
| Pupnik_ | good to know - saved | 16:05 |
| Pupnik_ | also seeing fastmem-arm9 which i need to understand | 16:06 |
| ssvb | bergie, tigert, MDK: about extras repository, if application is compatible with all maemo 2.x firmware releases, can you try to decide on recommendation whether 'mistral', 'scirocco' or 'bora' should be preferred for OS2006, it can clear some confusion | 16:09 |
| bergie | bora is 2007, isn't it? | 16:09 |
| ptman | yes | 16:10 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: it is just an optimized implementation of memcpy for Nokia 770, is a bit faster than default memcpy | 16:10 |
| ssvb | bergie: it was a typo, s/bora/gregale | 16:10 |
| bergie | ok | 16:11 |
| bergie | I guess I better not comment the naming and leave that to the Nokia guys :-) | 16:11 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: it provides a decent improvement when you have lots of bulk memory copy operations (for example implementing double buffering), you can benchmark this function yourself but in my tests it was 10-40% faster | 16:13 |
| Pupnik_ | such operations are a large part of emulating the SNES PPC - though i haven't benchmarked yet | 16:14 |
| Pupnik_ | most of what it's doing is layering bitmaps via memcpy | 16:14 |
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| ssvb | Pupnik_: there are also variants for 16-bit and 32-bit data, they have lower prologue/epilogue overhead, so are better for smaller buffers | 16:17 |
| Pupnik_ | well memmove too | 16:19 |
| Pupnik_ | ah which these are | 16:19 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: If you need to clear bitmaps fast, there is also optimized memset function (with 16-bit variant as well), it is more than twice faster than default memset | 16:20 |
| Pupnik_ | yes lots of that, excellent! | 16:20 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: I do not have memmove function yet, memcpy needs to be modified to copy data backwards to implement it | 16:21 |
| Pupnik_ | are the versions in mplayer the ones i want? or is there a page with these? | 16:24 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: 'arm9_memcpy16' is for 16-bit data, but these sources have lots of comments, so everything should be clear, the latest version of these functions is in mplayer SVN trunk, there is no separate page for them | 16:26 |
| ssvb | Pupnik_: I think I will add some page for developers and optimizations tips and tricks to maemo mplayer website | 16:27 |
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| ssvb | Pupnik_: inline asm versions are potentially not safe, so *.S file is preferred, looks like gcc used in maemo SDK is buggy, see https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=733 | 16:32 |
| Pupnik_ | ok i can't get into this yet, still merging in the faster/simpler engines - once those work, i'll look into fb and mem functions | 16:34 |
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| tigert | man | 16:40 |
| tigert | nice example videos from konttori | 16:40 |
| tigert | of course the demo effect kicked in and my device switched wlans during playing :) | 16:40 |
| tigert | and the world screeched to a halt | 16:41 |
| tigert | (why does it do that??) | 16:41 |
| Pupnik_ | videos of what? | 16:44 |
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| tigert | urho's new N800 optimized example videos | 16:51 |
| tigert | see planet | 16:51 |
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| zulla | tigert: I tried those videos. Don't you think that they are quite choppy? | 16:57 |
| konttori | tigert: nice to hear that you like it. I have to say that ssvb:s suggested 512x288 is much better balance between good framerate and rez. | 16:57 |
| konttori | I'll add that today | 16:57 |
| CountDown | Is Flumotion available for Maemo? A quick search didn't come up with anything. | 16:57 |
| tigert | zulla: a bit | 16:58 |
| konttori | zulla: I agree that they are a bit choppy. But only a little. Depends on what you watch. It's only bad for very fast paced action movies. | 16:58 |
| tigert | ok. got to run | 16:58 |
| zulla | tigert, konttori: don't know. I transcoded "a very long engagement" | 16:58 |
| zulla | it's not exactly an action movie. | 16:58 |
| zulla | I found it very unpleasant to watch the 14fps version. | 16:59 |
| ssvb | kontorri: probably it depends on individual preferences and perception, I myself easily notice reduced fps videos and find them quite unpleasant to watch | 17:02 |
| onion | has anyone tried claws mail on a 770 ? appinstaller complains about missing libsm6 | 17:04 |
| ssvb | konttori: so finding a highest resolution which can be played at full framerate with (almost) no framedrops is a preset which I would like to use | 17:04 |
| * mgedmin just waits for someone to figure out the best n800 settings for mencoder and post a shell script | 17:04 | |
| unique311 | #! /bin/sh | 17:04 |
| zulla | mgedmin: use 770-encode.pl | 17:04 |
| unique311 | trying to run a file that starts with the above post.. | 17:05 |
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| mgedmin | I assumed the n800 can support better quality settings? | 17:05 |
| zulla | mgedmin: I use 400x240@30fps with 700 kbits. | 17:05 |
| unique311 | but getting a compaint in maemo | 17:05 |
| unique311 | why | 17:05 |
| zulla | mgedmin: I just patched those settings into 770-encode.pl | 17:05 |
| zulla | works fine for me. | 17:05 |
| ssvb | zulla: did you try increasing resolution a bit? | 17:06 |
| zulla | ssvb: no, didn't try that yet. | 17:06 |
| zulla | ssvb: only tried 592x352@25fps, but that didn't work on the n800. | 17:07 |
| zulla | ssvb: no other experiments beyond that. | 17:07 |
| ssvb | zulla: N800 uses a high quality hardware scaler, so there are no magic numbers which should work worse or better | 17:08 |
| zulla | ssvb: no modulo 16 limit? | 17:08 |
| ssvb | but increasing resolution introduces tearing and makes video harder to decode (framedrops), so there should be some limit | 17:09 |
| ssvb | zulla: that 16 pixels limit is probably in video decoder but not necessarily scaler | 17:10 |
| ssvb | anyway, increasing resolution with 16 pixels on each step is not so restricting | 17:11 |
| * zulla is _somewhat_ happy with 400x240 video. But I could go on and on asking Nokia to reconsider their design choice that limits playback resolution @30fps... | 17:11 | |
| Pupnik_ | there were limited options available | 17:12 |
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| Pupnik_ | battery_life=1/(speed)^2 for e.g. | 17:13 |
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| unique311 | Pupnik_ whats up man... | 17:20 |
| konttori | ssvb: 512 can be played @ 18 fps without framedrops. So, I guess that's the optimal for n800 default player | 17:20 |
| Pupnik_ | chillin with a movie | 17:20 |
| unique311 | still working on gimp | 17:20 |
| unique311 | i could get it to work on the n800 | 17:21 |
| Pupnik_ | cool | 17:21 |
| unique311 | cuase the prefix was set to scratchbox.. | 17:21 |
| ssvb | konttori: maybe going down to 480 can provide support for full framerate? | 17:21 |
| unique311 | went on #gimp they gave me some clues on what to do.. | 17:21 |
| konttori | ssvb: I'm not sure if the player supports 480. | 17:22 |
| unique311 | http://www.flickr.com/photos/unique0nez/461125252/ gimp on scratchbox....yeaahhhh | 17:22 |
| konttori | ssvb: But I'll try to test that as well. | 17:22 |
| ssvb | konttori: but it is divisible by 16 right? maybe it would work fine. It is also interesting to ensure that it does not have tearing | 17:23 |
| zuh | unique311: Old news, gimp on device from the debian-armel port http://iki.fi/zuh/gimp-on-n800.png ;) | 17:24 |
| unique311 | where the deb? | 17:25 |
| unique311 | wasting my time working with this one.. | 17:25 |
| zuh | Not really | 17:25 |
| zuh | What I had was the official debian port to armel running in a chroot | 17:26 |
| zuh | Which takes some hundred megs of space... | 17:26 |
| unique311 | ok | 17:26 |
| unique311 | im at 55 | 17:26 |
| unique311 | with the cacko source.. | 17:26 |
| Pupnik_ | you ran configure without -gimp-print right? | 17:31 |
| Pupnik_ | maybe there's more stuff there that can be pulled out | 17:31 |
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| konttori | ssvb: Not all 16 divisibles work on the device. | 17:34 |
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| jarichardson | so... is the 770 abandoned now? | 17:35 |
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| unique311 | i did run it wihtout print... | 17:36 |
| unique311 | it won't compile with print unless u install print lib | 17:36 |
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| unique311 | zuh i notice your menu bar, how did you get it so small... | 17:39 |
| keesj | can somebody with the 3.1 sdk test a small program for me? | 17:39 |
| keesj | http://paste-it.net/1913 | 17:40 |
| keesj | I am going to paste again sorry7 | 17:43 |
| Pupnik_ | i only have 2.2 | 17:46 |
| * mgedmin has 3.0 | 17:47 | |
| keesj | 2.2 also does not work for me | 17:47 |
| * mgedmin could probably apt-get upgrade... | 17:47 | |
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| keesj | Pupnik_ can you try http://paste-it.net/1916/raw/ | 17:49 |
| keesj | I get parsechangelog/debian: error: badly formatted trailer line, at changelog line 5 | 17:50 |
| Pupnik_ | command not found dh_make | 17:52 |
| keesj | interesting | 17:52 |
| keesj | I did not explicitly install dh_make(I think) | 17:56 |
| keesj | now I need some apt-magic to know what package should be installed | 17:57 |
| Pupnik_ | yeah there's a program to do that | 17:58 |
| Jaffa | konttori: mencoder doesn't have any decent pulldown methods for getting 25fps video to 18fps, though. | 17:58 |
| keesj | there is a dh-make package | 17:59 |
| Pupnik_ | strange | 18:00 |
| Pupnik_ | the problem was strange characters in the downloaded commands | 18:01 |
| Pupnik_ | now it works | 18:01 |
| Pupnik_ | Type of package: s/m/l/k? | 18:02 |
| keesj | s | 18:02 |
| keesj | enter | 18:02 |
| Pupnik_ | make[1]: *** No targets. Stop. | 18:02 |
| Pupnik_ | did not get that error | 18:02 |
| Pupnik_ | *your error | 18:03 |
| keesj | thanks , what does apt-cache policy dh-make give you? | 18:03 |
| jarichardson | uh, so is the 770 abandoned? | 18:03 |
| Pupnik_ | no candidate | 18:03 |
| Tak|work | depends who you ask | 18:03 |
| Pupnik_ | jarichardson: what do you mean by abandoned? | 18:03 |
| jarichardson | no updates, no fixes... | 18:04 |
| jarichardson | from nokia | 18:04 |
| jarichardson | no new flash updates, opera updates | 18:04 |
| Pupnik_ | that is correct i think | 18:04 |
| Pupnik_ | in other words, you get what you paid for | 18:04 |
| jarichardson | damn, i hate buying hardware that becomes obsolete in a year | 18:04 |
| Pupnik_ | plus a world of open source | 18:05 |
| jarichardson | open is a relative term | 18:05 |
| jarichardson | tons of closed source tools on the 770 | 18:05 |
| X-Fade | jarichardson: Why is it obsolete? It doesn't stop working after that year. It just stays in the state it is after the last firmware update? | 18:06 |
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| jarichardson | fair enough, it just sucks owning a device that everyone drops | 18:07 |
| Pupnik_ | i'm porting apps to the 770 | 18:07 |
| Pupnik_ | so are other people | 18:07 |
| jarichardson | this kind of history is enough for me to stop buying products from a given company | 18:07 |
| X-Fade | Most software runs on both type of hardware. Video is even better on 770 ;) | 18:08 |
| jarichardson | video playback is better? | 18:08 |
| Pupnik_ | buying a product doesn't entitle you to a lifetime of free product upgrades | 18:08 |
| jarichardson | with mplayer? | 18:08 |
| Pupnik_ | mplayer is excellent | 18:08 |
| jarichardson | yes, but when you spend a decent chunk of money on something, you'd exepect it to be supported for longer than a year | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | Yep.. | 18:08 |
| Pupnik_ | again, we come to the issue of what you expect by 'support' | 18:09 |
| jarichardson | hmm, do you have to reencode all the videos to work well with mplayer? | 18:09 |
| X-Fade | jarichardson: What do you like to see fixed? | 18:09 |
| jarichardson | i'd like to have a common API between the devices, so software doesnt need to be "ported" | 18:09 |
| jarichardson | otherwise it just makes developers do more work | 18:09 |
| X-Fade | jarichardson: Well virtually everything is the same on both devices.. | 18:10 |
| Tak|work | there is a common api - most 770 apps work out of the box | 18:10 |
| Tak|work | (on the n800) | 18:10 |
| jarichardson | not vice-versa | 18:10 |
| X-Fade | jarichardson: You always develop for the lowest common denominator.. | 18:10 |
| X-Fade | So that is 770 in this case.. | 18:10 |
| zuh | X-Fade: Unless you want to do video that is... | 18:11 |
| jarichardson | true, but does it say that in the develpment docs? "develop for a 770 so you don't have to back port your app later" | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | zuh: Yeah, but that is broken hardware design ;) | 18:11 |
| zuh | Xvideo extension? | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | zuh: Not easily fixable via software.. | 18:11 |
| zuh | Which isn't there in 770 | 18:11 |
| Pupnik_ | i think nokia was right to stick with ti/arm | 18:12 |
| jarichardson | so the 800 has the xv extension, but has poorer performance? | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | zuh: So you don't use xvideo but the supplied dsp codecs? :) | 18:12 |
| zuh | X-Fade: On N800? Are they still there? | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | zuh: I think so? | 18:15 |
| jarichardson | hmm, are there any replacement linux distributions for the 770, since i wont be getting any further updates from nokia? | 18:15 |
| zuh | X-Fade: Nope, not present. | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | jarichardson: Nokia provides a clean root filesystem.. | 18:16 |
| unique311 | zuh how did you get the menu bar so small? | 18:17 |
| zuh | X-Fade: And IIRC they required extra work to use anyway (through Xsp) | 18:17 |
| X-Fade | zuh: Ah, i had seen the mp3sink and guessed that the mpeg codec was there too.. | 18:18 |
| zuh | unique311: It doesn't use the maemo theme so the font size is not the same... The theme in that shot is the regular clearlooks one | 18:19 |
| jarichardson | http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/ has a distribution | 18:19 |
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| X-Fade | jarichardson: Did you try out the 2007hacker edition on 770? | 18:20 |
| jarichardson | no, links? | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/Os2007On770 | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | That gives you a lot of N800 features. I think it is better than the 2006 image.. | 18:21 |
| Tak|work | I hope they fix the annoying click/pressure issues | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | And update it to the latest 2007 image ;) | 18:22 |
| X-Fade | I have been thinking about building a script to take a 2007 image for N800 and replace it with the parts needed for 770.. | 18:23 |
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| jarichardson | no libopera from 2007 kinda sucks... the main app i would like updated | 18:29 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: that'd be very handy - AFAIK Os2007on770's released *no* build instructions, which makes it Yet Another Closed Image. | 18:53 |
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| etrunko | anyone knows what's happened with maemo gtk-2.10?? | 19:12 |
| etrunko | it used to live here https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/gtk+/maemo-gtk-2-10 | 19:12 |
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| inz | etrunko, it went trunk | 19:12 |
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| etrunko | w00t | 19:13 |
| etrunko | inz: thanks | 19:13 |
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| etrunko | inz: is this one?? https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/gtk+/ | 19:15 |
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| * konttori_ checked. N800 can't cope with 480x288 @ 25 fps. | 19:18 | |
| zulla | konttori_: thanks. | 19:18 |
| Pupnik | what codec konttori_ ? | 19:18 |
| konttori_ | mpeg4 | 19:18 |
| konttori_ | Of course mplayer can do it easily | 19:18 |
| inz | etrunko, yes (check debian/changelog to see the version) | 19:19 |
| konttori_ | But then again, mplayer on N800 can play 800x600 at 10 fps | 19:19 |
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| konttori_ | Not 800x600, 800x480 | 19:19 |
| konttori_ | sorry | 19:19 |
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| etrunko | inz: i'm fixing the jhbuild-modules | 19:19 |
| Pupnik | ssvb: have you benchmarked speed of raw framebuffer writes on 770 or 800? | 19:20 |
| inz | etrunko, never used jhbuild, but I guess it's good to have it working. =) | 19:22 |
| konttori_ | Funny. It's not so much a resolution issue. Works @ 20 fps on 512 kbps, but not on 768 kbps. | 19:24 |
| etrunko | inz: yeah, i've just reinstalled my machine, so its quite useful | 19:24 |
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| inz | etrunko, I wonder I one should add a cd .. after the make installs in HildonDesktopPortability... | 19:25 |
| ssvb | Pupnik: framebuffer is a normal system RAM, it is quite fast | 19:25 |
| inz | etrunko, there was a post on maemo-developers that had hildon-theme-cacher/hildon-theme-tools/hildon-theme-layout-4... | 19:25 |
| etrunko | inz: maybe a good idea | 19:27 |
| konttori_ | I wonder why the decoder takes it's toll from the bitrate. If the video is decoded in the dsp, could it somehow be that the dsp can't handle streams faster than 512 at good speed? Surely that would be odd | 19:28 |
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| konttori_ | ssvb: You wouldn't have any insight as to what to think of this? | 19:29 |
| konttori_ | The problem is only in the most totally changing scenes. | 19:31 |
| ssvb | konttori_: N800 does not use DSP for video anymore (otherwise it would be as slow or even slower than 770), in this sense N800 works in the same way as MPlayer - ARM is used for decoding video, DSP is used for decoding audio | 19:31 |
| konttori_ | I have my test scene in sushine trailer seconds 30-40. Scene changes totally from white to black in one frame | 19:31 |
| konttori_ | ahh.. that's good to hear | 19:31 |
| konttori_ | but then, why would the bitrate affect it so much? | 19:32 |
| ssvb | konttori_: looks like the built-in mpeg4 video decoder is slow | 19:32 |
| konttori_ | Yeah. I guess that's the only conclusion. | 19:33 |
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| ssvb | konttori_: mplayer suffers more from memory bandwidth and Xv performance, so video resolution is critical for it, but high bitrate is much lesser problem | 19:34 |
| konttori_ | Ahh... @ 18 fps it can JUST handle the fast changing scene @ 1024 kbps. I think I'll set it to stone now. | 19:34 |
| ssvb | konttori_: probably built-in player suffers from both | 19:34 |
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| bjv | x forwarding, what kind of stuff needs unlocking on the 770? | 19:52 |
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| bjv | sshd_config changed from forwarding no to yes, 770 doesnt have xhost though? | 19:53 |
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| mgedmin | I think you're right | 19:55 |
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| unique311 | finally | 19:57 |
| unique311 | yes | 19:57 |
| unique311 | running, gimp on n800 | 19:58 |
| unique311 | i'm thinking all that needs to be done is packaging it.. | 19:58 |
| bill20r3 | word | 19:58 |
| * konttori_ got the joost invitation. | 19:58 | |
| konttori_ | unique311: Great! | 19:58 |
| unique311 | video | 19:59 |
| bjv | oic. xauth does not even run on the 770, yet | 19:59 |
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| unique311 | Pupnik, the airbrush works smooth | 19:59 |
| konttori_ | unique311: any screenshots? | 20:00 |
| unique311 | window switching is ok | 20:00 |
| unique311 | well i'm going to do a quick video of it..and up it to youtube. | 20:00 |
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| konttori_ | unique311: Any chance you could add the brush controls statically on the left side of the screen? | 20:13 |
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| * konttori_ reboots to windows to make a installer for MC1.42 | 20:19 | |
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| Pupnik | ssvb: that's interesting - I wonder if SDL_HWSURFACE can make use of that | 20:30 |
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| ssvb | Pupnik: I'm sure SDL can't use hardware capabilities efficiently, it is ordinary SDL compiled for x11 | 20:42 |
| rev | what's up with this new "intel umpc" thing? some of the screenshots look just like maemo/hildon | 20:50 |
| rev | http://www.engadget.com/gallery/intels-mid-umpc-so-long-xp-vista-hello-linux/214485/ | 20:50 |
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| rev | but others completely different | 20:50 |
| rev | http://www.engadget.com/gallery/intels-mid-umpc-so-long-xp-vista-hello-linux/214491/ | 20:50 |
| jkridner | think those things will still cost an arm and a leg like current UMPCs? | 20:51 |
| rev | i hope not | 20:52 |
| rev | no clue though, intel just has some ref designs | 20:52 |
| rev | i wouldn't mind a bigger device than my N800- for me, something the size of a newton is just about perfect, though modernized, thinner, etc | 20:52 |
| rev | but the umpcs are HUGE | 20:52 |
| rev | way thicker and heavier than a newton | 20:53 |
| tigert | and cost insanely much | 20:53 |
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| jkridner | personally, I think the PSP size is nice, but with the N800 screen. :) | 20:53 |
| rev | indeed | 20:53 |
| Pupnik | if i won the lottery, i'd produce a replacement clamshell cover that's wider and has dpad on left, buttons on right and bluetooth | 20:55 |
| Pupnik | but im being a nerd | 20:55 |
| rev | i'd lovea clamshell too | 20:55 |
| * konttori_ updated media converter: http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/2007/04/media-converter-142-update.html | 20:55 | |
| rev | basically, a sigmarion 3 with a convertible swivel screen would be perfect for me | 20:55 |
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| rev | the sigmarion 3 is a jp-only wince device, sort of a jornada 720 successor | 20:55 |
| rev | it's awesome | 20:55 |
| jkridner | I totally agree with the buttons on the right thought. I've had my N800 for about 10 days now and that would be #1 for me. | 20:55 |
| rev | gotta run | 20:56 |
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| jkridner | pupnik: for bluetooth, I assume you mean A2DP? | 20:56 |
| jkridner | (ie., headphones) | 20:56 |
| mgedmin | buttons on the right += 1 | 20:56 |
| konttori_ | ssvb: I wonder if someone could do some small optimizations to SDL, like optimizing blitting and using the efficient memcopy, mem move and stuff for compiling it. | 20:56 |
| mgedmin | actually, I'd like the same set of buttons on both sides | 20:56 |
| Pupnik | no the buttons and gaming dpad would communicate to the nokia via bluetooth | 20:56 |
| jkridner | oh. | 20:57 |
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| * konttori_ also agrees that at least one button on the right would make a big difference to usability. And PROPER d-pad. | 20:57 | |
| jkridner | what is a dpad? | 20:57 |
| konttori_ | direction pad | 20:58 |
| konttori_ | up down, left right. | 20:58 |
| konttori_ | rocker. | 20:58 |
| Pupnik | actually there's a bluetooth gamepad sold for cellphones - you could crack that open, buy a replacement aluminum clamshell from nokia (i think) epoxy the buttons to the left and right of the clamshell with a handmade cover | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | what's proper? | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | for dpads | 20:58 |
| jkridner | like the one that is there now? | 20:58 |
| konttori_ | one that doesn't have button in the middle and which supports 2 simultaneous direction presses | 20:58 |
| Pio | the current one is def. not gaming friendly | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | the whole device is not very gaming friendly... | 20:58 |
| Pupnik | the current dpad has good tactile feedback for clicky movement, but it's not usable for fast games | 20:58 |
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| mgedmin | hm... maybe a new device: N-gage 800 | 20:59 |
| ssvb | konttori_: optimizing SDL falls into the category of platform level hacking, which seems to be currently entirely monopolized by Nokia | 20:59 |
| Pupnik | i suppose i could buy a psp or gp2x, but then i'd have two devices in my pocket | 20:59 |
| konttori_ | Pupnik: I tried playing chrono a bit with it and it totally killed my hand. I think 770s dpad was a bit better | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | maemo-powered, with working 3D accel | 20:59 |
| konttori_ | I don't think a dpad would be too much to ask from nokia | 21:00 |
| Pupnik | konttori_: oh i have a faster snes9x now if anyone wants to play with it | 21:00 |
| konttori_ | They should put good dpads to their mobile phones as well. | 21:00 |
| part | konttori_: seems like it is | 21:00 |
| ssvb | konttori_: now as Nokia 770 is 'free', maybe something could be done optimizing its core components | 21:00 |
| jkridner | I want my N800 to replace my GP2X, but the lack of gaming controls kills that. I love the screen and everything else about the N800 better than the GP2X, but the lack of right hand controls is a killer. | 21:00 |
| konttori_ | Even the original ngages dpad was almost ok, even though it had the middle button functionality | 21:00 |
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| mgedmin | the middle-button is very useful for non-gaming | 21:01 |
| mgedmin | I wouldn't want to lose it | 21:01 |
| konttori_ | Pupnik: Cool. Can you add a quick opener app that would allow you to choose rom ? | 21:01 |
| konttori_ | I can send you the conf file if you still need it | 21:01 |
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| jkridner | anyone started to port Democracy TV Player? | 21:02 |
| Pupnik | konttori_: i am working on a version that will be about 2-3 times faster | 21:02 |
| jkridner | I just got my scratchbox installed and I've found there are a ton of dependencies for Democracy. | 21:02 |
| jamey | does anyone have oprofile running on N800? | 21:02 |
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| unique311 | sorry bout the music.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2jVHqvDW5M | 21:10 |
| koen | jamey: did you see http://projects.o-hand.com/oprofileui ? | 21:11 |
| Pupnik | koen, jamey i'd be interested in using that sometime soon - what needs to run on the nokia to get the profiling output? | 21:13 |
| Pupnik | http://oprofile.sourceforge.net/news/ <- ? | 21:14 |
| bill20r3 | unique: that's pretty cool. | 21:16 |
| bill20r3 | p.s. tripod(!) | 21:16 |
| bill20r3 | what theme is that? | 21:17 |
| jamey | Pupnik, need a kernel built with CONFIG_PROFILING and CONFIG_OPROFILE (which can be a module) | 21:18 |
| jamey | plus need oprofile tools | 21:18 |
| jamey | I have kernel and modules built but am having trouble updating initsf | 21:18 |
| jamey | initfs that is | 21:18 |
| Pupnik | heh unique311 that's really fast! | 21:19 |
| Pupnik | and the tools layout is great! | 21:19 |
| Tak|work | Pupnik: hit me | 21:19 |
| Pupnik | ok | 21:19 |
| Tak|work | konttori: btw, n800 seems to support simultaneous button presses | 21:19 |
| Pupnik | Tak|work: snes 1.4 or the uqm pixeldoubling source? | 21:20 |
| Tak|work | why not both | 21:20 |
| Pupnik | ok | 21:20 |
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| konttori_ | Tak: cool. Very cool indeed. | 21:23 |
| konttori_ | I wonder if one might be able to just add something on top of the current dpad and make it work | 21:24 |
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| part | konttori_: would be easier to replace the buttons | 21:26 |
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| part | konttori_: removing the metal case on the n800 is easy, getting replacement buttons would be a bit more difficult | 21:28 |
| konttori_ | true. Anyway, I wouldn't do it and 99.9% os n800 owners wouldn't do it, so we can just hope that the next device will inherit rocker design from n-gage, not 6131 | 21:29 |
| konttori_ | Hey, does anyone know how I could get id3demux component for gstreamer? | 21:31 |
| konttori_ | I'm still having problems playing mp3 files that have covers in their id3 tags | 21:31 |
| konttori_ | Any ideas for that would also be helpfull | 21:32 |
| konttori_ | Here's an example file: http://www.helsinki.fi/~konttori/MediaConverter/Juanes.mp3 | 21:32 |
| konttori_ | any gstream call that can play this file would be much appreciated. Default player is able to play it, so I would imagine that the default configuration has all it takes to play it. | 21:33 |
| konttori_ | But I have limite knowledge of gstreamer framework | 21:33 |
| konttori_ | id3demux is a thing that has been suggested, but I'm unable to find it, so can't test it myself | 21:34 |
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| onion | konttori_: this pipeline works gst-launch-0.10 filesrc location=/media/mmc1/temp/juanes.mp3 ! id3lib ! dspmp3sink | 22:06 |
| konttori_ | thanks! | 22:07 |
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| onion | konttori_: np | 22:08 |
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| |tbb| | whtat is that orb thing good for | 23:07 |
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| jamey | later all | 23:11 |
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