IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-03-28

qgilshackan: my feedback is that it would be a pity if your project couldn't even opt to be chosen by a lack of a mentor - this doesn'¡t mean that getting a mentor would be a guarantee of anything, but you know00:00
qgilI mean "chosen because of a lack of a mentor"00:00
shackanqgil, I absolutely know, but thanks00:00
maddlerqgil: I applied as a mentor candidate to smooved...00:02
maddlerfrom my point of view... smooved would be a great improvement...00:03
qgilthis ranking starts looking good/sensible, although most mentors haven't ranked yet00:03
maddlerI mean... N800 (as well as 770) is a great device... which can (and has) to do a LOT more than simply surfing the web from your sofa...00:03
maddlerqgil: maybe they need to be solicited?00:04
qgilI'm not going to chase mentors beyond the updates I'm sending to maemo-developers - chasing a mentor now implies triple chasing and eve ntually loosing him/her once the project is ongoing00:06
ajturner|workthat would probably be a good idea to throw out a reminder to all mentors that all apps are now in and availabe for ranking & mentoring00:06
maddlerqgil: true...00:08
maddlerajturner|work: yep... a "generic" reminder could help///00:08
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bergieqgil: is there anything urgent I should do as mentor this week? I'm going to be the rest of the week in Norway on a conference trip00:11
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qgilbergie: it would be good to help commenting ranking the rest of proposals, not only "your" lobby  :)00:12
qgilyou are an experienced maemo power user00:12
bergieI'll try to find the time00:12
bergieI just first wanted to pick the ones most interesting to me :-)00:12
qgilat least push up your other favorites00:12
bergiebesides, I'm not so sure I would be fitting mentor for other apps than positioning-related00:13
qgilfinding 3-4 more to give then + points would help defining the path00:13
bergiesure, will do00:13
qgilranking and commenting has little to do with mentoring00:13
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jkuIf anyone's interested, I've my GeoClue application in the wiki:
jkufeeedback very welcome00:25
bergieqgil: oops, now Google's mentor app is giving a lot of errors ;-)00:25
maddlerbergie: same...00:26
MDKqgil: if I understand correctly, it's not clear yet how many slots we'll have?00:26
qgiland this time they didn't put the "beta" label  ;)00:26
qgilMDK: not clear at all00:26
shackanMDK, google will tell (at the last minute, as always)00:27
qgilMDK: that "  Applications below this line are less likely to be accepted." is defined by a value I introduce manually in the maemo edit page, I could put it up or down00:27
jkuMDK, they said the slots will be clear April 4th latest00:28
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MDKqgil: I see00:28
qgilgood that there is people following the thing closely because I can't afford subscribing to another mailing list00:28
bergiegood night, all... I'll try the SoC app again tomorrow00:28
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MDKspeaking about the Soc process,00:28
MDKI think that we should, once the selection is done,00:29
MDKsetup a mailing list for the mentors/participants00:29
MDKwhere students will post progress as weekly status reports00:29
MDKthat's how it was done during the Mono soc I took part in00:30
MDKand it worked very well00:30
* shackan is evaluating one of those Web2.0 project collaboration sites to see if it's worth to use anything like that00:30
MDKsince seeing others working is kinda encouraging00:30
ajturner|workor, assumedly each project would have a garage project that would provide SVN, news, mailing list, etc00:30
jkuqgil, Google hasn't been very good at communication -- e.g. out of the total 4 deadline delays I believe two were announced in any real way.00:31
shackanjku, get used to it :)00:31
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shackanI heard past SoC have had lots of such problems00:31
maddlerMDK: yup... a SoC mailing list could be fine...00:32
jkuI've had no problem, but I can understand it could be annoying for admins/mentors00:32
maddlerand yes... having a garage project for each aproved project is fine as well...00:32
qgillet's define channels of communication once we know the projects approved00:32
MDKyeah, socs are pretty hectic I guess00:32
maddlerqgil: of course...00:33
qgilisn't google requiring this year that code is submitted directly to their repo?00:33
jkuyes but I believe twice (or something) is enough00:34
jkuI guess they want to see some results before paying00:34
maddlerqgil: oh... I was about to open a bug for maemo-flyer... but then I switched to something else and forgot about that!00:34
qgilmaddler: did you get an email now?00:34
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maddlerthat's why it came back to my mind! :D00:37
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maddlerqgil: ok... 1st step done...00:46
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qgili'm going for the second, just wait 5 mins  :)00:47
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maddlerI was about to add some other tasks...00:48
maddlerbasically: "define formats" and "basic contents"00:48
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qgilmaddler:  :)00:52
maddlerlemme see...00:52
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maddlerok... updated...00:55
maddleroh... I'd remove the "default" block...00:55
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maddlerqgil: I'd need the maemo logo resizeable native image...00:57
maddleror I could redraw it... :)00:58
maddlerhmmm... maybe onion garage already... with new site's stuff...00:58
maddleronion = on00:58
acydlordblargh i need an ide cable01:00
maddlerhmmm... can't find it... tigert alive?01:00
qgilthere is a new logo with small fixes being approved these days, please wait just a bit maddler01:00
maddlerqgil: oh... ok... perfect...01:01
maddleracydlord: I could DCC send it...01:01
acydlordi have probably a hundred of them lying around here, i just need to find my tool bag01:03
maddlerI just bought 20 IDE cables...01:03
florianmaddler: uh01:03
maddlerafter I spent a whole day fighting with a dvd burner...01:03
* florian just bought another X3101:03
acydlordplanning to build a 2PB data cluster?01:03
maddlerand found that the IDE cable caused the DVD to report wrong filesystem!!!01:03
maddlerbut since CDs were being read without any problem... I don't even considered the cause was the cable...01:04
florianhrm... i want releases of the GPE PIM stuff and neal is on vacations :-/01:04
maddleronly DVD failed...01:04
maddlerbuy a new "releaser"! :D01:05
* florian searches ebay for "open source releasers" ;)01:05
maddlertry with "cheap opensource releaser" :DDDDDDDDDD01:06
florianmaddler: i can order them by current bid afterwards ;)01:06
maddleror "15X open source releasers - (no windows)01:06
maddlerflorian: hehehe... indeed...01:07
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maddleryou should also try on www.ebay.cn01:07
maddlera LOT cheaper over there!01:07
maddleryou could buy 10 for the price of 1! :D01:07
florianmaddler: but less experienced with open source... usually01:07
florianThe flyer project is a good idea...01:08
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florianIch could donate a *big* printer ;)01:08
florianMy German starts to leak, that means it is early in the morning01:09
shackanit's not, not in europe at least01:11
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florianshackan: it depends on the definition ;) here it is about midnight01:12
shackanI wouldn't define midnight "early in the morning"01:12
* qgil is going to define "bed" - good night!01:12
florianqgil: good night01:13
maddlerqgil: see you...01:13
shackanbye qgil !01:13
florianshackan: true01:13
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maddlerflorian: please, define "*big*" :D01:13
florianmaddler: DEC turbo Printserver LPS20... about 1.5m/160kg01:14
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maddlerhehe... not exactly a01:17
maddler"new" model :)01:17
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maddlerI don't even want to thing about shipping costs to .it! :D01:18
florianI'm pretty sure it will be hard to find one to pick it up deliberately ;)01:21
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maddlerflorian: hehehehe... sounds so...01:28
maddlerdamn... I bought a new fan for a server... and just realized that in order to mount it...01:30
maddlerI have to remove the motherboard from the case...01:30
maddlersince it requires to remove the "standard" CPU fan clips...01:30
guerbysent my findings about battery level01:30
guerbyto maemo-devel01:31
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florianmaddler: that's why i like ibm :)01:44
maddleror DELL01:45
maddlerwell... actually that would have been fine if I considered using that fan a *bit* earlier :)01:45
maddlereasier to change a fan than to print form a winblows box by the way!01:46
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floriangood night02:20
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maddlerdum de daa,,,02:45
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maddlerttl here...03:16
maddlerlater dudes!03:16
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unique311does mplayer work with the latest firmware now?03:41
jacqueshmm, I wanna know that too03:42
unique311its up to 1203:43
unique311the issue was on 903:43
unique311is it fix03:43
unique311another question whats up with vlc on maemo...03:43
unique3119 or 10 played mp4...oh lord fixed The MPlayer....03:46
unique311psp encode their movies MP4..03:47
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unique311jacques last post...  read
unique311does that mean it works but with minor issues?03:47
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unique311jacques last post...  read
unique311does that mean it works but with minor issues?03:51
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chxhi. i was not here for some time so I want to ask about progress if any on making a mini laptop out of the N800 -- you know, having a clever case which holds a foldable keyboard and an n800 together04:40
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* bhima went by CTIA today. Lots of N800s around.04:45
Suliswhat's CTIA?04:46
bhimaCommunications Technology Industry Association, I think. The conference is officially CTIA Wireless.04:47
bhimaThe conference floor was absolutely massive.04:47
Sulis:( i've never been to anything like that04:47
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bhimaMy company's ~2 hours away from Orlando.04:48
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bhimaLast conference I was at was LinuxTag, at the town I was living in in Germany, and I got to meet maemo dev people and grope a 770.04:49
Sulisdid you ask it if it minded?04:49
bhimaIt promoted itself as an open system, so I assumed it was willing.04:51
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Suliswell it's only polite to ask04:53
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unique311k, mplayer still has issues with the update bummer...05:02
bhimaAny idea if there are any maemo people at CTIA?05:03
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unique311VLC media player compiled and tested for maemo. Open source available on www.videolan.org05:09
unique311    *05:09
unique311      I really doubt we need multiple frameworks doing the same thing on an embedded device. Who agrees? -- DannyMilosavljevic05:09
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unique311where is the deb05:09
medic30420damn this is sweet (n800)05:09
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bhimaThere may be a rhinoskin n800 case coming out for the n800.05:10
* bhima hopes that it will happen.05:11
unique311VLC true or false...05:11
unique311i need some VLC in my life05:11
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bhimaOh, and I think I've figured out how to make a USB power injector powered off a single AA using off teh shelf parts. (somebody else may have already done it, of coruse...)05:12
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bipolarkkito: ping07:39
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Markovany idea why media converter is slow?08:06
Markovwhy doesn't it take more cpu and finish the job faster?08:06
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konttoriMarkov: what do you mean? It isn't utilizing 100% processor speed on your system?08:26
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mk8Hi to all ... :)10:50
mikemorrisonanyone know how to get the app icon to show up in the window list?11:01
everaldomikemorrison, on 770?11:02
everaldoyou must create a desktop file and dbus service11:03
everaldolet me get the tutorial11:03
mikemorrisonyeah i read the tutorial but it didn't give a very good explanation. why is the dbus service needed?11:04
everaldobecause is the way how maemo window manager works11:04
everaldoit is dbus oriented11:04
mikemorrisonok. so if i have a .service file, then it will look at the .desktop file to see which icon to use?11:05
mikemorrisonexcellent. thanks for the help.11:06
everaldomikemorrison, remember that you binary file must have the same name than dbus service file11:07
everaldoI fight a little with this some days ago :)11:07
tigerthi everaldo11:10
everaldomorning tigert11:10
mikemorrisonok. do i need to do anything special with libosso? currently i just call osso_initialize11:10
everaldomikemorrison, no, only call it is enougth11:11
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AD-N770good morning11:19
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JaffaMorning, all11:39
mikemorrisoneveraldo: ok i added a service file but now my app won't launch. it says "loading" for a while and then nothing11:40
everaldomikemorrison, you must call osso_initialize11:43
everaldobut if you app dont launch the something is wrong11:43
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everaldoI go breakfest... back in half hour11:44
mikemorrisonyeah it does call osso_initialize. hmm11:46
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X-FadeHmm all of a sudden Canola crashes on 'the dayly sourcecode' podcast. Weird.12:22
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greentuxhi florian12:57
florianhi greentux12:58
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Zentonhi all13:11
Zentondoes maemo hardware have phone capabilies?13:12
Zentonor has a modem to be used?13:12
glassneither 770 or 800 have phones built in13:13
jkuwlan, bluetooth. check the nokia site13:13
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mikemorrisonanyone here know much about the d-bus service file?14:24
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jku_what do you need mikemorrison?14:39
mikemorrisonthe docs on the subject are not very clear.14:43
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KnirchI'd say, only one line is not much of a documentation for this question :D14:45
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mikemorrisonhehe.. the bora tutorial says to build the "Name" field with app provider url and service name to minimize conflicts. then in the osso_initialize it doesn't pass the full "Name" in14:48
jku_I vaguely remember it having a default value... not smart, but would explain it14:49
jku_as in, osso_initialize guesses the provider14:50
mikemorrisonit took me quite a while to figure out what i really had to do. what was also confusing is that if i put in "" i could call osso_initialize with just the "servicename" portion. but when i switched to my url it didn't work.14:50
jku_file a bug on that if there isn't one already14:51
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mikemorrisonyou figure it's a bug? in documentation or libosso?14:52
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jku_ maybe?14:53
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jku_well, documenting bugs makes them features...14:53
mikemorrisonwell look at that, i could have saved myself a lot of time checking bugzilla. that info should be in the docs14:55
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nomisHmm, is Jakub Pavelek in IRC?15:08
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jonekhi, any Google SoC mentors arround here?15:59
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ferulotigert: ping16:11
tigertwhats up?16:19
tigertnomis: I am not sure16:19
tigertnomis: I can ask him when I see him around16:19
nomistigert: don't bother. It would have just been convenient to discuss bug #263 with him.16:20
nomissomehow this bug report became confusing and IMHO misses the point.16:20
tigertlet me see16:20
nomisMy point was, that opera (contrary to other tools on the N800) ignores ~/.fonts.conf (apart from having an option in the GUI would be convenient).16:21
ferulotigert, ehh, are there any packages to install plakton on bora?16:21
feruloor do I need to build them myself?16:22
nomisthis has nothing to do with hinting information in fonts, (which is where the autohinter kicks in and messes some letters up)16:22
tigertferulo: yes16:22
tigertbut not on a repo16:22
tigertcacher from there16:22
tigertplankton from experimental/ is newer16:22
feruloyeah, but I need i386 version16:22
tigertand I need to move my ass to update it16:22
tigertbut the theme is _all.deb16:23
tigertits just the cacher you need to build then16:23
tigertbut its very small16:23
feruloI guess I can get it from svn tags16:23
tigertyou can use trunk16:24
tigertit shouldnt matter16:24
feruloisn't it depending on anything?16:25
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timelessanyone here use garage (svn)?17:02
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tigertferulo: not much17:08
kkitowell i am finishing my qt/kde port to the n800. Now tap-and-hold and virtualkeyboard is working17:11
kkitoit is time to rewrite some window/widgets to fit ok on the screen17:11
kkitoare there any qt/kde app that do you want to be integrated on the n800?17:12
kkitoactually i am working on amarok17:12
kkitokonqueror? kontact?17:12
TakI'm guessing kmail would be popular17:13
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kkitoand koffice?17:14
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tchanDoes anyone know if there a definitive answer for whether or not usb host mode hacks will (ever) work on the N800, like they do on the 770 ?17:19
kkitotchan, i think that the feature is on the current roadmap17:20
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tchanthanks, I'll look for it!17:21
mgedminit's hard to predict the future17:22
mgedminbut I think it is likely17:22
mgedminwhat's the url for the official maemo roadmap?17:22
* mgedmin just found
mgedminboth urls open the same page17:23
mgedminusb host support is in the roadmap part, rather than wishlist17:23
mgedminiirc that means nokia will pay their developers to implement it17:24
mgedmin(but nokia reserves the right to change its mind)17:24
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Takso is nokia officially dropping all support for 770, or are they WONTFIXing everything because they're focusing on 2007 for 770?17:29
Okkomgedmin: does the N800 support the host mode without hardware changes?17:30
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Okko...since also "WiMAX" is in the roadmap17:32
mgedminafaiu N800 has hardware support for USB host (modulo the power hack), but lacks software support for it on the kernel side17:32
zuhTak: IIRC 2007@770 is a "not supported" feature to begin with, so I wouldn't expect for it to be developed too frantically...17:35
TakI thought they were working toward making it a supported configuration17:36
Tak"they" being ari, I guess17:36
mgedminnobody ever promised that17:36
mgedmin"we will release an unsupported 2007on770 for hackers" was the concession17:36
* koen awaits 'mamona'17:38
timelessi thought that the roadmap included garage roadmap things17:40
timelesswhich were definitely not things nokia was going to pay for17:40
Okkomgedmin: in the motherboard, but isn't the plug the non-host type?17:45
mgedminwell, yes, but a bigger problem is that the plug does not supply +5V17:45
dragornOkko: There are no drivers to run the chipset in host mode17:46
mgedminpeople solved that for the 770 with hardware hacks17:46
mgedminthose hacks do not work on the n800 because the usb kernel driver for that chip does not support host mode17:46
dragornmgedmin: My understanding from other people was that the 800 may actually provide host mode power if you pull a pin low, but that theres no kernel driver support for the chipset currently17:46
dragornThough honestly I'd throw a battery pack on it anyhow for any heavy usb usage17:46
mgedminthat would be nice17:46
dragornAnyone know offhand why a gtk app compiled in hildon wouldn't find the fonts?  (no hildonization yet, which might be the answer right there)17:48
mgedminno idea17:49
mgedminone thing I noticed: after I installed bitstream vera, fc-list would find it, but fc-match wouldn't17:49
mgedminand xterm didn't find it until I rebooted17:49
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dragornI'm not trying to do any special font usage, just whatever the default gtk font is17:50
dragornhm maybe I lie about that actually17:50
mgedminmaybe you need to use run-standalone.sh17:50
dragorni lie, I'm using helvetica17:50
dragornI bet that's missing17:50
dragornnevermind.  Self-idiocy.17:51
mgedminif you just start a gtk app from xterm, it won't get the hildon/maemo/osso/whatever theme specific environment variables17:51
Okko"Most of the pins of a Mini-USB connector are the same as those in a standard USB connector, except pin 4. Pin 4 is called "ID" and, in the Mini-A connector, is connected to ground, but in the Mini-B is not connected. This causes a device supporting USB On-The-Go (with a Mini-AB socket) to initially act as host when connected to a USB Mini-A connector"17:51
mgedminthe usb chip on the n800 supports USB OTG17:51
dragornOkko: Sounds like the pin I was talking about.  Too bad we still don't have usb host.17:51
mgedminI don't know about the connector17:51
Okkomgedmin: I've heard about that 770 hack, but how does it work plugwise and is the ("female") plug in 770 the same as N800?17:51
dragornOkko: yes.  but the 770 has no onboard power for the usb chipset17:52
dragornOkko: so you have to hack it anyway w/ a supplementary battery pack and a powered hub or injector cable17:52
Okkook, and is the plug an AB, or does one have to use some non-USB-standard adaptor to get a "normal" client USB device connected?17:52
dragornyou need a way to power the bus, and cables w/ the appropriate connectors on them for whatever you're doing17:53
Okko(or let's say "Nokia original accessory" ;)17:53
dragorni've run my 770 to a single usb device using couplers and a 2.5" USB hard drive "y" cable17:53
dragornwhich provides a power-only connector to draw from a second usb port17:53
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dragornif you have a powered hub, you can use that as well, if you make a battery pack to connect to it in some fashion17:53
Okkook so you kinda have a cable that has A in both ends?17:53
dragornit doesn't matter what kind of cable you get as long as it plugs into the devices you want it to.  I happened to have a kit of USB end adaptors, it came from Big Lots for $9.99 or something17:54
OkkoI've been wondering if I could connect my digital camera into my N800 but haven't been able to do it even hardware-wise since I don't know what adaptor I should use.17:54
OkkoI don't think the cam would necessarily need any power since it has its own battery17:54
dragornYou can't do it software-wise because there is no way to drive it from the 800 kernel.17:55
dragornIf you had a 770, you would still need power17:55
dragornbecause you have to power the 770 usb bus, period, unless the camera feeds power back up the usb system17:55
Okkobut my cam has a Canon button so that it can for example directly print to a printer17:55
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Okkoso I'm kindof dreaming I would connec the two and press the transfer button, which would upload them to the N800 and then to Internet with WLAN :)17:55
dragorndon't see what that has to do with anything, that's probably pictbridge17:56
dragornafaik, impossible with the current n800 kernels.17:56
mgedminif your camera could copy pictures into a usb mass storage device, you could connect your n800 to it17:56
Okkoit's still unclear to me if the connector in N800 is B or AB17:57
Okkomgedmin: yeah, I don't think it is able to do that. :(17:58
Okkosome electronics company could make a device size of a matchbox that would connect two client devices and copy all files from the first to the second17:59
Okkopeople would buy17:59
dragornbeen done18:01
dragorntheres also a multitude of cf/usb/sd/foo auto-readers linked to a 2.5 drive18:01
Okkoany links?18:01
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dragornnot offhand, never needed one but I see them scroll by on my gadget rss feeds every week18:05
OkkoI've seen the auto readers but I'm interested in that "matchbox" thing since it would enable an endless supply of storage.18:05
Okkosince wlan is everywhere18:06
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zuh <- There's a paragraph that gives a bit rosy picture of the 2007@770 scheme :)18:33
danielsthe register is possibly the only publication with less credibility than random guys out on the street shouting at the sky and claiming government conspiracies against them18:34
bill20r3what about msnbc?18:35
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danielsmy statement stands18:36
Piobut this is the inquirer18:37
danielser, yeah, that's what i meant18:37
danielsthe register has a tiny bit more crediblity.  it's total shit, but it doesn't actually make everything up.18:38
Pioand they have BOFH18:38
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Takhah - I was just reading that inquirer article, wondering "Where the hell did I get this link?"19:19
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bill20r3does the n800 use HID or SSP bt keyboards?19:34
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bill20r3there's an iPaq kb in the local classifieds for $50, hopefully they still have it.19:36
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SonejGot my n800 today :)19:47
bill20r3Sonej, congrats, I've been really happy with mine.19:48
SonejDownload apps now19:48
Sonejanything i should do thats "important"?19:49
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bill20r3not that I can think of offhand.19:49
bill20r3anyone have one of these?
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kulveinz: can I some how run osso-xterm like "osso-xterm ssh foo@bar"?19:50
danielsbill20r3: clearly you need the awesome power of the nokia su-8w ;)19:50
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danielsbill20r3: nokia bluetooth kb19:51
SonejDo i need to install a ssh server on the n800 to get the terminal on my computer?19:51
bill20r3sonej, no, just osso-xterm19:51
Sonejokey, will check it19:52
* pippin wonders if he is brewing on the longest delivery time of getting a functional N800 yet :] (original unit was DOA, and returned to Nokia 2007-02-09 :d)19:53
Sonejbill20r3 how do i do it exactly?19:55
bill20r3with the application manager, but I think you have to add a repository first. (but I don't recall which one)19:58
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Soneji see, i need to shape up on the linux thingy19:59
SonejSo should i upgrade to the latest firmware, was it worth it?19:59
pippinSonej: not only will some quirks be fixed, you'll also get a couple of new apps, not upgrading seems stupid.20:01
inzkulve, /usr/bin/osso-xterm "ssh foo@bar" should work20:02
inzkulve, it uses launcher, so you need to use full path20:02
Sonejpippin then i will20:02
kulveinz: ok. Maybe creating a new desktop file would be nicest way to launch that..?20:03
jonekare any Google SoC mentors arround?20:05
jonekI would like to see some more feedback on the Java proposal. why does it get so few points? bad, uninteresting, not yet read?20:08
jonekbilboed: ?20:10
jonek*grgs* bill20r3: ?20:10
bill20r3<-- not a mentor.20:10
bill20r3but I'd like to see java on my N80020:10
* shackan_ too20:11
jonekI guess many would like to see java in internet tablets20:11
jonekbut apparently not so many mentors?20:11
dragornfor it to be worthwhile you'd need to port JIT i imagine20:13
bill20r3they probablly have jobs, and stuff.20:13
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jonekor is this just tacticle behaviour? (don't give points to 'competing' proposals or something?)20:13
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danielsi can tell you for sure that there's no conspiracy, just a general lack of interest20:14
jonekdragorn: a JIT allread exists for the tablets! see "Java phoneME Advanced"20:14
mgedminrandom observation: the screen of the N800 is so much better.  the 770's was disturbingly grainy and rainbow-coloured20:14
kulveand the viewing angle is much better20:15
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jonekdaniels: why is there lack of interest? developing in Java for internet tablets for make MUCH thing easier. Think of obsolete scratchbox environment (at least for all non-native stuff) like the proposal for ruby states, too.20:16
joneks/for make/would make/20:17
spaetzwhy would you need java when you have python ;-)20:17
kulveI don't understand why people dislike SB that much..20:17
alpikvm and the mono jit work great on arm if you need java20:17
mgedminyes, but why java when there's already python?20:17
mgedminoh, darn, spaetz beat me to it20:17
jonekspaetz: :-)20:17
danielskulve: people dislike scratchbox because it's crap20:17
spaetzgreat minds think alike20:17
alpthe caveat is that the java UI stuff is not completely implemented20:17
mgedminkulve: 2 gigs of disk space...20:17
kulvedaniels: right..20:18
danielsjonek: i'm not saying it's because java's good or bad (personally, i think it's a good idea but all the implementations are shit), but it's just a simple and rather obvious fact that there's a general lack of interest from the core development community.20:18
danielsjonek: there seems to be some amount of interest from application writers mainly, but among core developers you never hear java even mentioned, whether that be for reasons of personal taste, performance, or whatever20:18
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kulvemgedmin: 2gigs? That's close to 0 bytes these days..20:19
jonekdaniels: by core developer you mean nokia employees?20:19
mgedminnot on laptops with tiny hard disks...20:19
mgedmin10% of a 20 gig partition20:19
kulveheh, can you byu a laptop with 20g hd today?20:19
mgedminotoh it prompted me to go out and buy a new 100 gig disk, so it wasn't all that bad20:20
danielsjonek: there does seem to be a strong correlation between the two groups20:20
danielsjonek: but we all have our own opinions.  we're not paid by nokia to say that java is shit.  if they were making us all share the corporate view, then we'd probably be a hell of a lot nicer about scratchbox.20:20
kulvemgedmin: I like SB. I use it e.g. compiling stuff for sarge env, since may "stable" envs doesn't have compilation stuff20:20
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bipolarkkito: ping20:21
danielskulve: the idea is good.  the implementation ... lauri's already apologised repeatedly, but i don't think he's bought me enough beer yet.20:21
kulvewell, let's support he's new proposal.. I already compiled our music player (kilikali) for n800 with it. As an armel debian package..20:22
danielskulve: unfortunately touch has this nasty habit of segfaulting on 64-bit machines under sb220:23
kulvetouch? Is that big thing to fix..?20:25
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danielskulve: dunno, but it sucks when an app you generally assume will work, doesn't20:26
jonekok - I hope to see the java SoC proposal getting some more points during the next days. in my opinion it is a very valuable proposal and has great potential to attract more developers to maemo (just like Ruby, Python, you name it)20:26
kulvethe whole sb2 idea seems to be so much cleaner than sb1, that it might be a good replacement with a little bit of work..20:27
kulve(I'm not an expert that field though..)20:27
bilboedjonek, ???20:30
zuhsb2 has the pitfall that for things like maemo it would just move the requirements of the build tool to be requirements of the build machine... Then people say "but you can do a chroot..." and suddenly it's sb1 again, just with you doing the setup by hand ;)20:36
zuhI don't see that boosting anyones eagerness to start developing20:36
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ocnarfidWrhapsody is pretty cool.20:39
ocnarfidWI like how they don't make you give your email addy or any info for the 30 day trial.20:39
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bill20r3I liked it, until I realized it was a product.20:44
* k-s[WORK] is away: Gone away for now.20:44
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ocnarfidWI never thought I would like a 'service' for music, but after having used the napster system last year for work I kind of like the idea of so many songs at your fingertips.20:44
ocnarfidWThou I didn't like napsters software, it was junk.20:44
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kulvezuh: yeah. I think sb2 might need some sort of devkits too.. Unless the distros support this already, like debian provides rpm etc..20:46
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Takhopefully sb2 would help alleviate the huge unnecessary duplication for those of us who already have debian environments20:48
zuhTak: that's how it works actually, uses the tools of the host env20:49
Takso I gather20:49
zuhand that's why my gentoo would need extra work to have it compiling maemo-packages...20:50
dragornthere shouldn't be many tools SB can use that aren't integral to SB20:50
dragorndpkg builders are about all I can think of20:50
dragornthe compilers, packages, etc all have to be oriented for the target system so those can't be host-level20:51
Takperl? python? all the associated libs therein?20:51
dragornNot when you're running in cpu-transp mode20:51
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Takwhy would it care if perl is native or not?  it (theoretically) interprets the script the same either way20:52
dragornif the goal is to have a replicated environment for the tablet, you want to eliminate as much funny host crossover as you can, typically20:52
dragorndifferent versions, different endian-ness in packing, etc20:52
Takif anything, that should help to highlight bugs in the scripts20:52
suihkulokkiwell, it gets complicated20:53
dragornPersonally, after having to try to maintain things between platforms and hosts and distros20:53
Takimo you should have the *option* of using as much existing infrastructure as possible20:53
dragornI'd rather see a monolithic build env which chroots and is self-contained20:53
kulverunning scripts as host, not target, can speed up things alot20:53
Takas has already been mentioned, there's always a chroot20:53
dragornand doesn't introduce host-distro wackiness20:53
Taksure, but it also eats my entire disk20:54
dragornYeah, but disk is cheap.  Sanity isn't.20:54
suihkulokkiyou want to run dpkg-buildpackage (perl script) as a host binary (to get much more speed), otoh you want target perl when compiling perl modules for device20:54
Takthe reverse is true in my case20:54
Tak(@ disk/sanity)20:54
* zuh is afraid neither sb offers both20:55
dragornif you want people to develop for the platform, don't make their lives more difficult20:55
Takhow is giving people *more* options making their lives more difficult/20:55
dragornsuihkulokki: have you, btw, messed with the prism54-umac stuff any, or just happened to know about it?20:55
dragornsuihkulokki: I'm going to have to hassle jean about it, because it's truly a mess.  I spent about 5 hours the other day digging at it and didn't get far, it's unclear if that code bundle is even maintained anymore20:56
suihkulokkidragorn: I haven't touched, it's just something I mention to people who complain about the binary only driver :)20:56
dragornsuihkulokki: Fair enough, I'll bug Jean about it and see what it'll take to build it into the newer stuff, and if it actually works20:57
suihkulokkidragorn: I fairly certain it isn't maintained anymore. there is p54 driver in the wireless-dev.git tree, using the devicescape wlan stack20:57
suihkulokkidragorn: without the spi-based communication channel, last I checked20:58
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dragornsuihkulokki: Yeah the whole d80211 thing throws a huge mess into it20:59
dragornsuihkulokki: and pretty much tanks our chances of getting an OSS umac usable from it for a year or so given the rate of dev currently20:59
kulveinz: desktop file works nice. Thanks.20:59
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suihkulokkidragorn: yeah, I also got the impression that d80211 is moving at the speed of a tarred snail :(21:02
dragornsuihkulokki: Well theres 2 competing stacks21:03
dragornsuihkulokki: and d80211 has never been in a standard kernel21:03
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SonejWhat is a repository and why do i need it? for nmap and other.21:07
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Takit's a collection of software you can access with the application manager21:09
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bill20r3is there nmap available? that'd be great.21:10
bill20r3and ping, even.21:10
bill20r3err, for the N80021:10
TakI thought ping was part of busybox?21:10
Takyes, browse the link21:10
maddlertak... ping can be downloaded from garage...21:10
bill20r3ok, thanks.21:10
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bill20r3thanks for the link Tak, lots of goodies there.21:14
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Knowledge_what does SVN stand for?21:28
s-ndh-c_Knowledge_: subversion its a version control system21:29
Knowledge_I see...21:29
s-ndh-c_its the successor of cvs21:29
TakI think they just felt like they had to have a 3-letter acronym after cvs, rcs, and friends21:29
Knowledge_thanks for clarifying...I was getting confused for instance, with the Simple launcher, mishaS kept saying SVN seems to be solved...21:30
Knowledge_man, I wonder why my background keeps disappearing...21:31
Knowledge_along with my top bar where the menu is21:31
Takdidn't somebody mention that being a low memory issue?21:32
Knowledge_no shit?, that makes sense, our Jukeboxes do that too when the memory is corrupt or low...21:33
Knowledge_but I'm booting from MMC...21:33
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Takthat doesn't affect the amount of memory (as in RAM), does it?21:33
Knowledge_I believe it does...I thought that was the whole reasoning behind doing
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TakI thought the reasoning behind doing it was to have more room for the root fs21:35
* ks-[AWAY_WORK] is back.21:43
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Knowledge_hmmm, is there a way around it?21:44
Knowledge_aside from a 128mb swap which I already have...21:45
dragorn"run less stuff"21:45
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Knowledge_Believe it or not, I only had one thing running when it did it (this time)...application manager...21:45
Knowledge_I have the home weather, google search, radio, simple launcher, clock, and discover tableteer...but I didn't think those would take up THAT much...21:46
Knowledge_seems like a reboot is the only thing that takes care of it...21:46
Takomweather is notorious for eating ram21:47
Takdo 'top' and 'free' give any useful information?21:47
Knowledge_oh, didn't know that...21:47
Knowledge_that's right...21:47
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Knowledge_side question, Rhapsody!, didn't nokia have a media player that looked exactly the same for the 770 which allowed you to play your own MP3s?21:55
devKnowledge_: MediaStreamer21:56
Knowledge_damn it, that's right. I'm such an airhead some times...fine, quite a bit of the time21:57
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lsobralhi, does anyone now if there will be an update release for the current bora sdk rootstrap for the new N800 image?22:01
kulve"The corresponding maemo SDK will be released very soon. Maemo developers stay tuned."22:01 mai page22:01
Knowledge_Mem: total = 127252, used = 120932, free = 632022:02
Knowledge_that's where I'm screwed?22:02
lsobralkulve, ok!22:02
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Taksame thing with swap?22:02
Knowledge_actually no, swap I have 131060 total, 128 used, 130932 free22:03
Knowledge_that's odd...22:03
Takso you should be ok22:03
Knowledge_hmm, so I shouldn't be getting these white screens?22:04
Takwell, so they may not be being caused by lack of memory22:04
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Knowledge_I wonder if I should take the OMWeather panel off of the home screen and see how that runs...22:15
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Knowledge_is there a repository for the apps that are in
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mk8Hi to all ...22:49
s-ndh-c_Knowledge_: i think its
Knowledge_s-ndh-c_: I'll try to add that22:54
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* qgil play IRC lottery: anybody here feeling like mentoring "Enterprise-class cryptographic filesystem" or "DBAssistant - SQL Database builder and data entry" or even "VPN Integration that Just Works"23:20
koen"enterprise-class" triggers my buzzword alert23:21
koenDBAssistant sounds like what Glom does23:22
qgilkoen, buzzword appart the cryptographic filesystem proposal is well presented and is hitting a clear void in maemo23:25
qgilgood point about Glom, will ask23:25
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florianall of these might be pretty cool projects...23:27
* florian needs more time23:27
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qgilso far the ranking of proposals is looking good23:32
qgilI have no idea how many projects will Google approve but the top positions are already showing interesting projects with a lot of pre-work done by the students23:32
jonekhi qgil, I hope more mentors would commen and rate the Java proposal.23:32
qgilI did my part, jonek  :)23:33
jonekis there an easy way to reach all maemo mentors?23:33
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jonekqgil: I've seen that! thx23:33
qgilmaemo-developers is supposed to be the default place23:33
qgilmy philosophy has been that mentors needing to be chased now won't be good mentors later on, so they better drop themselves  :/23:34
jonekqgil: I read some of the SoC site of other mentoring organisations. Our wiki SoC page feels a little thin23:34
qgiljonek: what do you miss?23:35
tigerthi quim23:35
qgilhi  :)23:35
tigertdarn. I bought this monitor23:35
tigertand fscking linux plug and play my butt :P23:35
jonekqgil: I'll think about it and tell you tomorrow23:35
koentigert: 30" tft?23:35
qgiljonek, before you think too much:23:35
tigertbut my thinkpad doesnt display in it23:35
tigertwell, it gets the mode wrong23:36
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qgilthat page was mainly to convince Google we were worth as approved organization (accomplished) and to orientate students when submitting proposals (I think we have got the amount/quality we needed)23:36
qgiltigert: now you know how hard is the life of Homo Hominis in the XXIst century23:37
danielstigert: what sort of thinkpad?23:37
danielstigert: i.e. intel or ati chipset23:37
tigertdaniels: x40, intel23:37
jonekyep - definitly. maemo has many nicely written proposals23:37
tigertI have the patching thingy23:37
tigertie "915resolution" util23:37
tigertbut it gets the mode wrong after this23:37
danielstigert: i'll come around friday if i manage to get into the office before you leave23:37
qgiljonek: I don't think google will approve less or more slots based on that page, they rather look at the proposals in the top ranks23:38
tigertthe display is at home though23:38
danielstigert: swap you fully working hotpluggable x for a logo ;)23:38
tigertdaniels: but this would be sweet deal in any case23:38
tigertlogo for what?23:38
tigertwill look into this definitely :)23:38
qgilbut hey, it's a wiki page - feel free to make it thicker yourself  ;)23:38
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jonekqgil: doesn't google approve all proposals above the light blue line?23:38
danielstigert: logo for x.org23:39
tigertdaniels: oh23:39
qgilthat light blue line is there because I put a value in the maemo edit page, I can move it at any point (now, I believe not in the future)23:39
danielstigert: which distribution are you using, btw?23:39
qgiljonek (let me check...)23:40
tigertubuntu dapper23:40
tigertno wait23:40
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tigertyeah, edgy23:40
danielsokay, that's easy23:40
tigertthe latest stable I think23:40
tigertfeisty is unstable right?23:41
qgiljonek: check now the applications rank  :)23:41
jonekqgil: just keep it below 8 ;-)23:41
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qgiljonek why 8?23:41
jonekit changed23:42
tigertdaniels: it complains about the RAMDAC being too fast for the DDC timings23:42
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tigertdaniels: yet I found some modelines for this exact monitor from google23:42
jonekqgil: bit it doesn't seem to only depend on the score23:42
tigertbut I think I just need to try another computer at this, to get it working with something other than intel card, and then use xvidtune to find the modeline23:42
qgiljonek: the proposals with mentor go to the top, then the ones without mentor, the score ranks proposals within these two groups23:43
koentigert: RAMDACS for dvi?23:43
MDKi guess it's vga23:43
jonekqgil: yep23:43
danielstigert: you really need a current intel driver and server23:43
koen1600x1200 with vga?23:43
danielstigert: the other one is ... uh ... how to say this?  siht.23:43
danielsalso, shit.23:43
tigertdaniels: right23:44
MDKkoen: why insane?23:44
tigertso then it JustWorks(tm)23:44
tigertwithout modeline crap23:44
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jonekqgil: cu23:44
tigertkoen: sure, I'd love to use DVI if the machine had such a thing23:44
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koenMDK: the cables aren't made for so much information23:45
tigertbut the image is pretty OK at work on the 1600x1200 panel23:45
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koentigert: lucky bastard23:45
koentigert: actually, the lack of dvi made me buy a 12" powerbook instead of a 12" tp23:46
tigertkoen: yeah, I like this small laptop23:46
koentigert: iirc the dockingstation has dvi23:46
MDKtigert: don't you have dvi output in the docking station somehow?23:46
tigertI have two 21" sony CRT's I need to get rid of soon23:46
tigertthose weigh like 50kg a piece23:46
tigertkoen: nope23:46
MDKmy tp doesn't have dvi output too, but the docking station has it23:46
tigertno dvi on the dock either23:46
MDKmaybe you can try my dock tomorrow?23:47
tigertnot on the "ultrabase" for X-series23:47
tigertit wont fit23:47
koenMDK: right, the docks at indt had dvi as wel23:47
tigertthis is all teeny-weenie special crap23:47
tigertdaniels: are there packages for bleeding edge X available?23:47
koentigert: having BNC plugs helped a lot23:47
koen(and a matrox g400 instead of some geforge crap)23:48
tigertkoen: yeah, I have those on the CRT's23:48
tigertand I had G400's yeah23:49
tigerton the desktop machine23:49
tigertwell, one23:49
tigertthe other screen was for teh mac23:49
tigertbut those beasts are huge23:49
danielstigert: yeah, i think deb edgy/$(ARCH)/23:49
tigertjust add those and dist-upgrade? :)23:50
MDKgood luck23:50
tigerthell, my spec review was today23:50
tigertthere's time to break things now :)23:50
danielstigert: in theory, yeah23:52
danielstigert: it worked for quim, after i broke everything by running ross's packages of despair23:52
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rhsanbornBah, I think my bluetooth has died....23:52
danielsi should probably update the server and drivers, but am in the middle of starting the wiki from scratch23:52
tigertso this is the X keith was hyping about?23:52
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danielsthe magical new x which is all covered in rainbows and sunshine and shit23:52
tigertxserver-xorg-video-intel - X.Org X server -- Intel i8xx, i9xx display driver23:53
tigertshould depend on all that is needed, right?23:53
danielstigert: haha23:53
danielstigert: i mean ... sure!23:53
tigertthat was so disturbing23:53
danielstigert: i think you need xserver-xorg-video-intel, xserver-xorg-core, libxrandr2, and xrandr23:53
tigert[maniac laughter] .. erm, sure!"23:53
danielsin order to ensure the full awesome experience23:53
danielstigert: you should hang around x more.  'so, this function does what i expect it to, right?' 'haha!  er ... yeah.'23:54
rhsanbornHas anyone had the experience where BT wouldn't turn on on the 800? Or 770 for that matter?23:54
tigertI get 404's23:54
* tigert looks23:54
tigertone extra ranrd-1.2 there23:55
koenshouldn't  xserver-xorg-video-intel pull in the needed de(p)(b)s?23:56
tigertdaniels: yer repo is le borken23:56
tigertFilename: randr-1.2//libdrm-dev_2.3.0-0ds1_amd64.deb23:56
tigertthen its already in randr-1.2 /23:56
tigertso it is putting the path twice23:56
tigertno wait23:57
Knowledge_yeap, I don't think memory is my issue, I think there might be a bug with the application manager being full screened...23:57
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tigertrhsanborn: yes23:58
tigertrhsanborn: sometimes23:58
tigertturning on bt from control panel usually helps, but it is truly annoying23:58
rhsanborntigert, It won't turn on via the control panel23:59
rhsanbornI've tried it a few times, tried power cycling...etc23:59

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