IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2007-02-20

MDKpeople, what do you actually store on those cards?00:02
Tak|workmovies and music00:04
RobHuI want to try putting Monkey Island 3 on, that's 1.3GB00:05
RobHualso 3GB of music00:06
MDKI store mp3/movies elsewhere. I just temporarily put stuff on the device00:06
MDKlike - the music I'm going to listen to today00:06
MDKbut maybe it's just me00:07
Tak|workI don't like having to copy stuff off/on all the time00:08
MDKso you keep your stuff only on the sd?00:08
Tak|workno, but I keep a big chunk of stuff on the sd00:08
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Tak|workso I'm copying stuff once/month instead of once/day00:08
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Tak|workalso, like RobHu mentioned, it'd be great to have room for stuff like scumm games in addition00:09
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RobHuI already have Monkey Island 1 and 2 >.<00:10
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dolfunRobHu, what are read/write speeds for you00:14
dolfunthose games look fantastic with the hq scaling00:14
dolfunsoo much better than orig 320x200 or 320x240 (whatever it was)00:15
RobHudolfun: What options do you need to make them full screen do you know? I was just using the 2x option, so there was a black border00:15
RobHudolfun: I will post those when it stops doing what it's doing atm :-)00:15
RobHucould be a few minutes00:15
dolfunnot a big deal just curious00:17
* dolfun still has the 7000:17
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dolfunfull screen....00:18
dolfuni will boot00:18
dolfuni sometimes use the 770 as a flashlight00:18
timelessit works nicely00:19
dolfunscummvm - options - graphics mode: advmame2x00:19
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dolfunx fullscreen mode    x aspect ratio correction00:20
dolfunwhich reminds me, i need walkthroughs :/00:21
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RobHudolfun: Here are my speed tests
RobHuThats internal memory, 1gb card, 8gb card00:29
dolfunbeats my kingston rs-mmc00:32
dolfundo you run with swap?00:32
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wumpuswow that's fast00:35
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wumpushow much data does it try to transfer?00:36
RobHuwumpus: Yeah?00:36
RobHuIt's all in the paste :-)00:36
RobHuI've not done anything magic00:37
wumpus80mb I see00:37
wumpuswell the line with mtdblock4 gives similar results here00:37
wumpusbut my mmcblk0 takes 36s00:37
RobHuhmm something called metalayer-crawl is using 100% cpu00:37
wumpusthis is weird00:37
RobHuwumpus: What kernel?00:37
wumpusLinux Nokia-N800-51 2.6.18-omap1 #2 Tue Dec 19 18:41:02 EET 2006 armv6l unknown00:38
wumpusnothing special I guess00:38
RobHuI have Linux Nokia-N800-51 2.6.18-omap1 #3 Tue Feb 6 22:30:15 PST 2007 armv6l unknown00:38
wumpushow did you get that, it seems newer00:39
RobHuI got it from Linux Nokia-N800-51 2.6.18-omap1 #3 Tue Feb 6 22:30:15 PST 2007 armv6l unknown00:39
wumpusmaybe it has better support for those large modules, I recently installed a 2gb one00:39
RobHuI got it from
RobHuThat's why I got it00:40
RobHuIt has support for sdhc00:40
wumpusthat's probably your speed gain, I can't believe my module is *that* much slower00:41
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RobHuI can't believe that either00:43
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Pioanyone happen to use a cellink btg-7000 bluetooth gps?00:55
RobHuIs it normal to have some swap? free says swap=000:56
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dwdRobHu: If you want swap, you need to configure it.01:19
dwdRobHu: You can do it in the "memory" control panel applet.01:19
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maddlernice... just launched 29 apps on N800, and still responsive! :D01:21
disqlibwpeditor is so nice btw01:22
disqdone with the maemopad+'s rtf support. though can't release it because it doesn't work on the 770 yet :p01:22
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disq(guess which lib is not bundled with gregale image)01:22
RobHudwd: Ah, I thought it came with swap by default...01:23
RobHuDoes swap use a file or does it require a partition?01:23
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dwdrobhu: It runs off a file.01:24
RobHuah shiny01:24
dwdRobHu: The trouble is, it means that apps are unresponsive when they're paging in/out memory, and that can cause them to be killed more often, or the lifeguard to decide to reboot.01:24
dwdRobHu: So it's not always a great idea. I don't run with swap, and find it's fine. YMMV, as they say.01:25
RobHuWell - I've not had swap and I've been fine01:26
RobHuI wonder how much memory I've been using01:26
dwdRobHu: You'll know if you run out - apps refuse to start. (As in, the launcher refuses to launch them)01:26
RobHuAh, so you don't just get the oom killer running around randomly killing things01:27
RobHuI've seen that happen before, and it's not fun01:27
dwdRobHu: Well, you *can* get that too, yes.01:28
dwdRobHu: I might have had a better experience with smaller amounts of swap, but I'm sure sure if Linux (on this thing) swaps preemptively, or if it swaps on need.01:28
pbrooklinux generally swaps when it needs to. There are knobs you can tweak to control swap vs. disk cache preference.01:30
RobHuI need to bench write performance01:31
RobHubut I ran out of battery power and the charger is in the office :S01:31
RobHuNow why didn't they make it so it could charge via USB?01:31
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pbrookRobHu: I'm fairly sure you can buy third party usb-to-nokia adapters.01:33
pbrookOr make your own by canibalizing a couple of cables:-)01:33
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pbrookThe AC adapter is 5v, which is the same as usb.01:34
RobHuWhy wouldn't they make it charge via usb /anyway/ though?!01:34
pbrookWell, with laptops you don't want it sucking all the power:-)01:34
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pbrookIt might be borderline on the USB power ratings.01:35
RobHuYeah... they could have it charge at a slower speed though01:35
RobHuIt should be achievable01:35
disqok released maemopad+ 0.30 check it out :p01:35
RobHuI guess its because it's the first revision01:35
disqthough it'll probably take a while to update the repo01:36
RobHuAh, you're the maemopad guy...01:36
RobHuI've not installed it yet, but it looks interesting01:36
disqhi. :)01:36
RobHuI'm sure I saw some screenshots somewhere?01:36
disqthere's a screenshots section in the garage page though they're kinda outdated now01:37
RobHuThere is no Java implementation for the N800, is that right?01:37
disqsome (independent) people are working on it, but no not currently01:37
RobHuSo it's not as easy as just recompiling one of the existing ones :S01:38
RobHuI heard there was a mono port though. Does anyone know if there is a Ruby port around?01:38
disqnot sure, did you check the wiki01:39
RobHuoops no01:40
RobHuWill do now01:40
RobHuThe wiki always seems quite out of date01:40
RobHuah - looks like the ruby implementation works :D01:41
jtraRobHu: ruby is available01:41
jtraNokia770-39:~# irb01:41
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jtrabut problem is with bindings for gtk and hildon01:42
RobHujtra: >:D01:42
RobHuIs the N800 fast enough to run a SNES emulator?01:42
jtraI compiled ruby-gnome2 package (gtk parts of it), some things worked, some did not01:43
jtraI decided to use python for my games then01:43
jtrapython is well supported and generally works01:44
RobHubut but I like Ruby !01:44
RobHuI'll probably never write anything01:44
RobHuI have too much to do at work01:44
jtraI like ruby too01:45
jtraI used python back in 2000 but I did not like it then, and when I discovered ruby I never looked back :)01:46
jtrabut for the games I decided to use python due to support and because I wanted to learn what is new in python since 1.501:48
RobHuI haven't used Python much01:48
RobHuHow would you compare them?01:48
jtrathe result is two games, new python knowledge and I still like ruby more :)01:49
jtraruby is more consistent in object approach01:50
RobHuSomeone I know who has used both said he thought Ruby was quite clean/pure while Python felt like a lot of hacks01:51
RobHuDo you think that is true?01:51
jtrapython has a lot of functionality available in functions which are not tied to specific objects like 'len', 'str', value conversions and more01:51
jtrain some sense yes01:52
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RobHuThanks. That's interesting.01:53
jtraRobHu: you may find this usefull:
RobHujtra: Thanks01:55
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RobHuI'm going to watch a film now. Thanks for chatting.01:56
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kkitoRobHu, yes it has enough power for a snes emulator, the problem is that a snes emulator is really a hard task, and the opensource emulators out there, are purely written in i386 asm02:14
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disqgah. i made an install file, but since the app manager can allow dupe repositories to be added, it causes an error if you already have the repo configured02:27
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gnuiteDid anyone here upload sqlite3 to the mistral and/or scirocco repositories?03:15
gnuiteBecause, I'd appreciate it if you could upload the packages to gregale, as well.  I've tried without success, so I think I must be doing something wrong...03:17
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disqgnuite: afaik there's no gregale repo03:21
disqis there?03:21
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disqgnuite: btw, if you're ever to develop some sqlite3-heavy stuff for maemomapper, try "PRAGMA synchronous = OFF;" updates are about a zillion times faster that way03:24
disqok looks like there's a gregale repo but nothing much there: only flite, mmapper, and proj03:25
disqand imho there should be only two repos, one for 2.x and one for 3.x03:27
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disqanyway i'm off to bed, night.03:46
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rhsanbornI can't get my desktop app to add the contact for the video chat client. Anyone know of an alternative05:59
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Markovis there a way to synch playlists with the n800 over bluetooth?06:00
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Markovam i in this channel ?08:22
everaldoMarkov, Yes, you are :)08:22
Markov:) thanks!08:23
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bmidgley_argh my n800 can't play the dvds I ripped for my 77008:33
bmidgley_it tries to and gets stuck...08:33
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kaatisdoes anyone know if it is possible to upload new gpg keys to garage? i've seem to lost my keys09:49
disqkaatis, sending a mail to ferenc usualy helps :)09:51
kaatisdisq, ok i'll try that approach :)09:52
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timelesskaatis: how can we trust that you're you? :)10:35
disq /whois? :p10:35
timelesssomehow i doubt garage registration includes nickserv on freenode. and i don't know what prevents an account from expiring and being stolen :)10:37
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tigertyou are just making things hard!!!10:39
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JaffaMorning, all10:40
disq(xchat so nice.  me likes)10:41
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zbenjaminmorning @ all10:41
disqlast night i packaged nokia's wpeditor for it2006 and signed/uploaded it. hope my apartment doesn't get raided by the nokia swat team (there's an image)10:43
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inzdisq, the nokia OSSO swat team will come and throw their ballpoint pens from their shirt pocket at you10:52
sp3000pens? what are those10:54
zbenjaminmorning inz10:55
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disqballpoint pens? i should immediately pack my gadgets and flee11:02
KevinVermacould there be a maemo (770/n800) section on ?11:03
kaatistimeless, you can't! but how could the garage registration page trust that it's me?11:03
Guardianmorning maemo11:03
Guardiandoh i thought i could just install the sapwood engine on my pc and toy with a gtk application, but it requires sapwood server11:04
disqand that's.. not open?11:04
kaatisfor extra paranoid, it could only accept pgp keys from people who are in the chain of trust11:04
keesjkaatis: A real paranoid, compiles from source11:05
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inzGuardian, the server is in the same package as the theme engine11:07
Guardiandisq: no, deploying would have been ok, but the fact that it needs another daemon is not :)11:07
disqyou should see maemo-blog's dependencies then :p11:08
disqoh, hi inz.11:08
inzdisq, st*u ;)11:08
Guardiansure i can make it working if i want, i just expected to be standalone11:08
Guardiani wanted to use it because i want to have shaped windows11:08
Guardianconfigured from the rc file11:08
inzdisq, I know they're nasty, that's why I wanted to port libsoup to openssl11:09
Guardianwhich is not possible with the pixmap engine because otaylor decided it's a no no :)11:09
inzdisq, but I think that would be problematic licensewise11:09
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zuhGuardian: he probably decided it back when the shape extension was broken in every other x server... I mean, has anyone really developed the pixmap engine in years?11:13
Guardianzuh: you may be true, he decided that in 2002 :)11:13
Guardian(from the changelog)11:13
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AD-N770good morning11:26
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floriangood morning11:40
tigertsapwood also currently requires 16bpp afaik11:43
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Guardianthx tigert, good to know11:44
Guardiantoo bad there is no way to get back the background pixmap filename from a GtkWidget instance11:44
Guardiani could have loaded the mask myself11:44
zuhYou can get the pixmap though, it's in the widget->style structure11:47
sp3000554.1M Feb 20 10:30 mplayer-11-1770.core11:47
tigertGuardian: but11:47
tigertGuardian: there is interest in making it work on 32bit too11:47
tigertsp3000: :)11:48
Guardianzuh: sure but a GdkPixmap does not carry transparency information11:48
zuhThat's true11:48
Guardiananyway, i need it for the main GtkWindow11:49
Guardianso i'm not sure it could be done through gtkrc11:49
Guardianeven with a customized theme engine11:49
Guardianah yes it would work, gtk_widget_shape_combine_mask() , i thought there was only a gdk_window_shape_combine_mask11:51
Guardiananyway i'll do it differently :)11:51
zuhWhy wouldn't gdk_window* work?-)11:51
Guardianwhat i wanted to say is that i did not know there was a gtk_widget_shape_combine_mask11:52
Guardiani thought it was only possible on a gdk_window, and some widgets don't have their own window11:52
Guardiananyway, using the pixbuf/pixmap engine, i'm able to have round buttons with the help of png files with an alpha layer: the paint_box/draw_box rendering code seem to respect the alpha layer11:53
Guardianbut if i asisgn a background png to the top level window through gtkrc, then it's not shaped11:53
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X-FadeHmm I have gotten myself in a situation where I have 2 popup window over each other that are both modal. And apparently the one with the highest priority is the one underneath the other :)12:39
X-FadeSo I can't click on anything..12:39
inzX-Fade, can you use esc key?12:40
X-Fadeinz: Ah, yeah.. that worked :) Great..12:41
X-FadeI made screenshots and will file a bug on that ;)12:41
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JaffaX-Fade: I've seen that before in a couple of places, IIRC12:47
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X-FadeJaffa: Well, I filed
keesjJaffa: can you look at the mud bugtracker and patches? I would like you to accept or reject a few patches. just So I will know what is acceptable12:53
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inzX-Fade, there's some focus fixes in matcbhox 1.1-osso14, but only refers to the internal 'zilla12:55
X-Fadeinz: System modal windows should just have a [x] to close them? :)12:56
X-FadeIt makes no sense that you can close them with esc and not the stylus?12:56
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X-FadeThe 'semi hide' by clicking on the titlebar, certainly doesn't help ;) You can see your problem, but you can't reach it..12:57
X-FadeThat only frustrates the user more.12:57
Jaffakeesj: I had a look to see why you can't do anything, but it seems like you should be able to.12:58
keesjJaffa So you think that I am not functioning correctly :p12:59
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Jaffakeesj: No, I'm entirely happy blaming the bug tracker ;)13:00
Guardianhuhu interresting, GDK_IS_DRAWABLE(pixmap) reports true but gdk_drawable_get_size(pixmap,&width,&height) claims pixmap is not a gdk drawable :)13:00
Guardianlove this toolkit13:00
keesjGuardian: perhaps you need to cast here13:00
florianhey elephantum13:01
Guardianwell i call it using GDK_DRAWABLE(pixmap)13:01
elephantumflorian: hi ))13:01
elephantumhi, all13:01
keesjsomething like gdk_drawable_get_size(GDK_IS_OBJECT_ORIENTED_DRAWABLE(pixmap),width,&height)13:01
florianelephantum: i haven't seen you for quite some time... how are you?13:01
elephantumflorian: yeah, I've lost connectivity with OS for some time, but now my work is about linux, and now I have n800 and I'm back )13:03
florianelephantum: wee cool!13:03
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keesjGuardian: probabely  more something like G_OBJECT or G_DRAWABLE:p13:04
Guardianok found13:06
Guardianneeded to call gtk_widget_realize13:06
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kkitohello :)13:08
Jaffakeesj: I've updated your privilege, so if you could see if #359 is still valid, thanks.13:10
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keesjJaffa: yes it looks better now13:11
Jaffakeesj: cool13:12
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keesjI also wonder why I did not get an email for the vsftpd patch?13:14
keesjI am monitoring the tracker13:14
Jaffakeesj: Subscribe to mud-builder-team?13:16
keesjdone thanks13:17
JaffaWorth making any change to tracker items email mud-builder-team?13:19
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beppHi,  I have problem to set a passwd in the new canola config. Does anyone have the same problem? After setting a password it takes me back to setting one once again. :(13:25
osfameronI couldn't open canola config without connecting to an access point13:26
osfameronwhich I thought was a bit sucky, as it was running on localhost13:26
JaffaI thought it installed a new dummy connection called "Localhsot".13:27
beppI have test it also during a connection no success13:27
beppMy new URL is
osfamerondidn't install the dummy connection on mine13:28
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bepposfameron: What do you mean with dummy connection?13:30
osfameron11:29 < Jaffa> I thought it installed a new dummy connection called "Localhsot".13:31
osfameronI had to connect via my mobile phone to get the web browser to open the canola service on
osfameronwhich was a bit sucky13:31
kkitolocalhost os not installed, it is on all linux13:32
kkitoosfameron, ?? you mustn to connect via your phone ??? is only for the localhost, you cannot access it remotly with other devices using this ip13:34
osfameronkkito: yes I know13:34
osfameronkkito: the point is, I tried to connect to Canola on localhost13:34
osfameronand the web app helpfully refused to connect to it13:34
osfameronand popped up the "choose an internet connection" dialog13:34
osfameronI tried cancelling, and it didn't open canola config13:35
osfameronwhen I eventually gave up and said "ok, connect to the internet, for a laugh, see what happens", THEN it opened canola config13:35
beppOK but after successfull connect to canola config I am not able to set a Password.13:35
kkitoosfameron, ahh i see... it seems an opera problem13:35
osfameronkkito: guess so13:36
osfameronor possibly OS - presumably something realises that a connection is being made and pops up the system dialog13:36
osfameronthat should be overridden given that the url is local13:36
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kkitoosfameron, oh it seems that the bug was opened in 2005 for the 770, but it is still there....
kkitotoo bad!13:48
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osfameronkkito: ah, thanks for the ref13:49
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kkitoonly 321 bugs fixed in more than 2 years of development?! And we want IVA and powerVR support ?! lol...13:54
lardmankkito: You should say please ;)13:55
elephantumso, to the question. I've installed bora sdk and want to develop python-hildon application, though there are no python2.5 or python-hildon packages in predefined repositories, where can I get them without messing my sdk?13:55
elephantumfound that =) thanks everyone )14:01
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zuhkkito: I think that any app that needs the user to connect to localhost with a browser for configuration is the problem, not the browser ;)14:06
kkitozuh, the problem is the browser, i think, because i can use other network apps with the localhost without connection14:11
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plaeszuh is right...14:12
zuhkkito: Oh yes, naturally it's a bug in the browser too. :)14:14
tigertcanola crashes on podcasts14:14
tigertthe frontend crashes when one tries to play one14:14
tigertand the backend crashes when I try to add one in the library in the canola config tooƶ14:14
kkitotigert, what podcast are you trying to add ?14:15
plaesfun for whole family...14:15
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tigertkkito: daily sourcecode14:17
tigertkkito: the problem is14:17
tigertkkito: there is this one thing open source podcasting apps rarely get right14:17
tigertkkito: I am adding ""14:17
tigertwhich is not a rss feed of course14:17
tigertbut there is a metatag in the page14:17
tigertso it _could_ fetch it from there14:17
tigertbut the backend seems to crash on this14:18
tigertI can add it OK if I add the XML url directly14:18
zuhIs that open source?14:18
tigertbut it could work14:18
tigertzuh: :) not14:18
zuhFortunately, otherwise it would "rarely get it right" :P14:18
kkitotigert, but the podcast must to be a rss or opml file14:22
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zuhkkito: But if the given url hints to a rss feed, the app can magically do the right thing and use that14:28
kkitoyes it will be a cool feature, you can add this to the canola garage page to a feature request (or bug), and perhaps the developers add this in future releases14:31
kkitoanyways, i added to canola and it runs ok14:32
tigertkkito: yes, it should look into the metatags14:34
tigertand find the rss or opml link14:34
tigertits silly for users to dig it up when it's totally there14:34
tigertbut yeah, will add14:34
tigertkkito: does it play?14:35
tigertcanola crashes when I try to play it14:35
kkitotigert, for me yes14:35
kkitoare ou using it on a n800 ?14:35
kkitome too :/14:35
tigertit dies the moment I hit "play" on the episode14:35
timelesstigert you saw my "bug" "reports", right? :)14:35
tigerttimeless: no?14:35
kkitotigert, are you using the latest release?14:36
tigertgot it from the page today14:39
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JaffaThe VNCviewer -> local Debian hack is very cool14:42
kkitoI have no problems with canola and podcasts, but some people seems that they have problems playing some podcasts :?14:43
kkito <-- i dont experience that bug too...14:43
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keesjthe VNC hack is nice , I wanted to to the same with "just" xnest14:47
keesjbut I did not think about the keyboard :p14:48
elephantumhuh, gtk on maemo doesn't use cairo?14:50
tigertkkito: yea, internal image here too14:50
tigerttime to reflash to product version I guess14:50
X-FadeCanola works fine with podcasts for me on product version..14:52
X-FadeI listen to Adam Curry just about every day..14:52
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tigerthe's pretty cool15:02
* tigert downgrades his device, damnit15:03
sxpert_worktigert: upgrade broke things ?15:03
tigertlooks like that15:05
tigertdunno why15:05
X-Fadetigert: And he loves his N800 ;) Talks about it for about 3 weeks every day now..15:05
tigertX-Fade: I noticed :)15:05
tigertX-Fade: he replied to my blog ;)15:05
tigertabout the geoclue thing15:06
tigertwe need to start using geo-location stuff in apps15:06
tigertjobi: around?15:08
X-Fadetigert: Yep that is kinda sweet.15:08
tigertduh, soon 5 days idle15:08
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kkitotigert, what new features has the image that are you using now?15:12
X-Fadekkito: Improved flash video support ;)15:13
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sxpert_workdream on you 215:14
X-FadeNo.. it is..15:14
X-FadeAri already demonstrated it to Thoughtfix.15:14
X-FadeThe slideshow feature has been removed ;)15:14
kkitoand normal video play is improved too?15:15
X-Fadekkito: Don't know about that. I don't have those images. It is just what I gather from the web.15:15
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inzelephantum, if you live on the bleeding edge and use sardine(-experimental), it does15:35
elephantuminz: I think I'm not ready yet for this )15:36
elephantumanother question: I'm trying to install python2.5-runtime on my n800, and get unresolved dependencies (libglade2-0, libsdl-ttf2.0-0, ...) does default install miss some repositories?15:38
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tigertkkito: bugfixes I guess15:57
tigertand new bugs apparently :)15:58
dwdelephantum: Yes, but I forget which ones.15:58
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dwdelephantum: They've been mentioned on the list before. If you hang on a sec, I'll look at my sources.list and tell you.15:59
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elephantumdwd: that would be great16:00
dwdI have both and is that helps. (Both as bora free non-free)16:01
dwdI think those are the two that are needed.16:01
elephantumdwd: yeah, default install misses, thanks it worked16:03
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tigertheh, features N800 + Carman already16:06
SchmotsAnyone here doing the dual boot?16:08
Schmotson an n800?16:08
SchmotsI am still trying to find out if anyone can access the first parition via usb when booted off the second parititon on an mmc/sd16:09
tigertkkito: ping?16:14
tigertkkito: whats the point of the canola photocast showing only thumbnails?16:15
bergietigert: it shows thumbnails for some pictures and full pics for some16:16
bergieno idea why... maybe setting by the person who uploaded the pic16:16
tigertah ok16:16
bergiein any case, I can now use N800 as a digital photo frame that automatically displays latest photos from my Flickr contacts as a slideshow :-)16:16
bergieCanola rocks... too bad it isn't open16:17
tigertdoes it blank the screen when on charger?16:17
tigertand does tapping on a photo take you to the flickr page?16:17
bergietigert: nope (for taking you to flickr)16:18
bergieno idea about screen blanking yet, have to try when I get home16:18
abbehdad: unfortunately it doesn't support slideshow from a local source16:19
X-Fadetigert: It doesn't blank when on charger.16:19
X-FadeAt least, not while playing a podcast.16:20
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X-FadeHmm new DSC btw ;)16:21
bergiesometimes the slideshow seems to think quite a long time16:21
tigertbergie: start listening to curry16:21
tigertits interesting16:21
bergiehow well does the podcast feature work? does it autorefresh/fetch and how often?16:21
tigertand we should hook him up to the geo-python stuff16:21
tigerthe is learning python to do things on the N80016:22
tigertthe podcast thing does not do background downloading of episodes :-(16:22
tigertwhich sucks16:22
tigertit would rock if it would fetch stuff behind scenes and just mark new podcasts with a dot16:22
X-Fadetigert: There is a feature request for that already :)16:22
tigertand keep track what I have listened to16:22
X-FadeThey are working on that..16:22
tigertbecause then I wouldnt need to run 3G all my work commute on the car just to listen to that curry dude :)16:23
* koen still wishes canola was opensource16:23
* tigert does too16:24
X-Fadekoen: Yeah, that would be sweet.16:24
mgedminwhat's the stated reason for making it $0 but not open source?16:24
X-FadeI think that would be the most active project on garage if they opensourced it.16:24
||cwhm, wonder if linux would be hard to run on this
||cwdefinatly a target for Nokia though16:26
||cwespecially the nvidia graphics16:26
bergieso currently Canola only "streams" the podcast MP3s? no offline listening?16:26
tigert13mm thick16:26
tigertbergie: afaik yes16:26
tigertwhich sucks :(16:26
bergiegpodder is better then16:27
||cwtigert: includeing the qwerty kb, yes16:27
tigertit is nice of course that it does even that16:27
tigertit would be good16:27
tigert||cw: would be too thick for a pocket :(16:27
tigertno wait16:27
tigertit looks a LOT thicker on the photo16:27
tigertN800 is around that thickness I think too16:27
tigertthe photo looks a lot thicker, or is this device a lot smaller than the N800 on other dimensions?16:28
tigertthe proportion looks weird16:28
||cw18.9mm vs n800's 12.716:28
tigertno wait16:28
tigertI looked at a wrong size in the text :)16:28
tigertyeah :D16:28
||cwand it is smaller in the other 2 dimisions16:28
tigertbut yea, thick as a brick :(16:29
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tigertbut yea, would be interesting to play with for sure16:36
tigertpretty sweet to for example run maemo on it? :)16:36
lardmanTalking about Canola, I like the look of the Apple iPhone album art scrolling/interface (they scroll past and flip up as they move into the centre of the screen), but I wonder how useful it would be in real life16:37
||cwshould be fast enough to run native res full frame rate video too16:37
Jaffalardman: quite handy for knowing when you're approaching the right point in the list as you know to stop scrolling. It's quite a handy visual clue. And very pretty.16:38
koenI liked the old standalone coverflow better16:38
koenthat had a fullscreen option16:39
koen(coverflow was merged into itunes)16:39
lardmanJaffa: I guess that's how I search for music at home in CD format - look for the right colour/pattern16:39
||cwvisual clues are good, it's sad more apps don't do it, it's not a new concept16:39
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||cwback in '96 I was doing data entry where a scanning system would break the paper forms up so that each field was a seperate image, the data entry people would have the images scroll top to bottom on the screen, 4-6 on the screen depending on screen size, and the middle one would be the one you type16:41
lardmanLooks nice that Sharp thingie, good to have a keyboard (I miss than from the Zaurus/Psions, etc.)16:41
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||cwI could definatly go faster the more images ahead I could see, and i didn't have a problem with accuracy (they pulled people aside if they did)16:42
||cwthere was also a way to go back incase you noticed you messed one up, which is why the entry was in the middle16:42
* lardman wonders why BT keyboards are so expensive in the UK16:43
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tigertone could render the coverflow in a mpeg video :)16:54
tigertin, say, canola16:54
tigertwhen adding new albums16:55
tigertand then just seek back and forth16:55
dwdOh, wlan driver source.16:55
tigertcanola config is not being backed up :(16:56
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Toma-is there an applet that lets you put notes on it for OS2006?16:56
dwdToma-: Other than Notes itself?16:58
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Toma-yeh, like a little box, much like the streamer and clock that lets me fire off something quick16:58
dwdToma-: Ah, you want a home applet that does notes.16:59
tigertI wonder if you put a file:// url to a Notes file, if browser launches Notes to that? :)16:59
Toma-im looking at GPE pim right now...16:59
tigertToma-: add Notes to Favorites in the menu, so its not under Utilities but on toplevel?17:00
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Toma-but ill forget about it :( with a quick note thing, its also like a todo list17:00
Toma-ive got a shockin memory17:00
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JaffaBlimey: - WLAN driver, open source17:03
koenJaffa: including n800 support?17:03
dwdkoen: Only N800 support.17:03
Veggendoes it work?17:05
VeggenAnd does the chip support access point mode? ;)17:05
* Jaffa dunnos. Now, who was talking about IV custom packets for WEP bypass?17:05
VeggenThe N800 would make an excellent ad-hoc server.. ;-)17:05
dwdVeggen: I was curious about AP master mode, too.17:06
Veggen(not ad-hoc, I meant temporary. ad-hoc was a bad choice of works here)17:06
Veggendwd: mm.17:06
tigertI want a webcam app17:06
tigertthat does http streaming with a simple python webserver17:06
tigertand some text overlay17:07
tigertwouldnt be hard to do17:07
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tigertI can do the ui design if someone is intereted in hacking :)17:07
tigertshould be easy with gstreamer17:07
nomistigert: would you design some stones for a game?  :)17:07
tigertnomis: yes, could photo some :)17:07
nomishmm, might be hard to find six shapes in six colors each...17:08
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mgedminnomis: have you seen my patch yet?
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nomismgedmin: oops. garage apparently did not send me mails about that.17:14
lardmanIt's possible to get a plain X11 app to show up on the "taskbar" now isn't it? I can't seem to find any instructions, etc., in the wiki17:17
mgedminlardman: you need to specify the window class in the .desktop file17:18
mgedmincheck the tutorial17:18
lardmanmgedmin: Ah, okay, I knew it was somewhere. Thanks17:18
nomismgedmin: looks basically good. I'll probably tweak some odds and ends, but basically this should work.17:20
mgedminsometimes I wonder why matchbox (or whatever is responsible for that bit) doesn't show all top-level windows there17:21
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lardmanmgedmin: There's not all that much space is there though17:24
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Toma-are those "" themes meant to be a trick or something? i cant download past 75% ...17:28
timelesshello world17:31
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timelessif you had to explain what "maemo" is, perhaps because you were forced to write an acronym table and someone wanted you to list maemo in it17:32
timelesswhat would you write for "maemo"?17:32
mgedminworked for me17:32
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lardmantimeless: Look at the page title on ? ;)17:33
timeless                             Maemo is the application development platform for Nokia Internet Tablet products (p1 of 9)17:33
Takor the topic here17:34
timelessi don't think that's a useful explanation17:34
Takis 1.0.24 the latest version of osso-wlan for IT2006?17:34
nomistimeless: what is wrong with it?17:34
timelessin fact, i think it's less than useless17:34
timelessnomis: it doesn't say anything17:34
timelessimagine you're writing a document to describe an application you're writing for the 77017:35
nomistimeless: it describes maemo as "application development platform", which is pretty accurate AFAIK.17:35
timelessand all over the document it says nokia, 770, internet tablet17:35
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timelesswould you really write "maemo is 'application development platform'"?17:35
Jaffatimeless: don't forget "application", "development", "Internet"...17:35
osfameronit's not just the dev platform is it?  it's the platform that users ultimately, er, use17:36
timelessjaffa: this table includes "API" "Application Programming Interface"17:36
nomistimeless: platform as in "collection of lots of specific libraries".17:36
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timelessosfameron: another very important point17:36
Jaffatimeless: it depends on your audience, I wouldn't say that to my Mum, but I'd expect a technical person to understand "application development platform" and "Nokia Internet Tablets" is clearly a product category.17:36
Toma-is a 30mb PDF going to kill my lil 770?17:36
timelessthis table also includes "ARM" "Advanced RISC Machine"17:36
Jaffatimeless: Maemo is the open source base of the Nokia 770 and N800 Internet Tablets17:36
Jaffatimeless: And "RISC" "Reduced Instruction Set Computing", presumably.17:37
lardmanBut ARM is a trademark isn't it?17:37
pbrookI'm not sure that ARM actually is an acronym any mode.17:37
timelessdon't ask me why, but RISC isn't in the table17:38
timelessi think that's a bug :)17:38
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timelessthe table also has "N/A" "Not applicable"17:38
Jaffatimeless: anyway, I refer you back to my definition then, "Maemo is the open source base of the Nokia 770 and N800 Internet Tablets"17:38
timelesssome of them were better, like "MIME" "Multipurpose Internet Mail Extentions"17:38
* timeless waits for someone to figure out why that's better17:39
JaffaIncluding the spelling mistake?17:39
timeless3points for jaffa17:39
JaffaAnd lack of hyphenation in "Multi-purpose"17:39
rhsanbornI'm looking at getting a stowaway keyboard. Anyone experience problems w/ keyboard and a bluetooth mouse @ same time?17:39
TakI think the hyphenation is optional17:39
lardmanAh, ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine according to wikipedia17:39
Takat least in the US17:39
dwdtimeless: I'm not sure most people in the industry would recognise "multipurpose internet mail extensions" as being MIME, actually.17:39
pbrooklardman: It's changed its name at least once.17:39
timelessdwd: i'm sure they wouldn't17:39
timelessi still question having N/A in the table17:40
dwdtimeless: Quite a few of those acronyms were made up to fit the nice word, anyway.17:40
* timeless ponders17:41
timelessso hrm17:41
Jaffalardman: Indeed. Hence the heavy basis of it in 6502-lore.17:41
timelessi'm really confused17:41
* timeless removes USB from the table17:41
rhsanbornAlso. I'm having trouble w/ nokia's desktop version of the vid chat client. Anyone here know of a nice alternative for vid calls w/ the n800?17:41
timelessoh, the table also has "R&D"17:41
timelessoh well17:42
timelessso, you're telling me that maemo is some sort of open source base for the platform17:42
timelesswhich means that if i choose to build on the 770 itself, and not specifically the open source base17:42
timelessi'm not actually building on maemo17:42
timelesswhich means it isn't what i want17:42
timelessso, what's something that means the platform?17:43
timelessOS 2006?17:43
Jaffatimeless: eh? if Maemo's the base of the 770, and you build on the 770, then you're building on Maemo.17:44
timelessbut you said open source base17:45
* timeless sighs17:45
lardmanAh, but you can flash a GPE image, which uses a few low level components, but could do away with those given some effort17:45
JaffaYes, so Maemo = open source base. + some closed source stuff = OS 2006. Therefore everything on OS 2006 is running on Maemo.17:45
shackanmeh, so much arguing over mere definitions17:45
shackantimeless, are you a lawyer by any chance? :)17:45
timelessshackan: i'm writing a very stupid document17:45
Jaffatimeless: then why worry?17:46
timelessi might as well get the stupid document right17:46
timelessotherwise, why bother writing it?17:46
JaffaI don't understand your problem with what I'm suggesting.17:46
dwdtimeless: I think you should define everything as "a waft of silence and beauty", and look blankly at anyone who claims not to understand.17:46
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rhsanbornI think dwd has the best soln yet17:46
timelessi like it, i just don't think it'll work17:47
dwdtimeless: Okay, what about "See"17:47
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timelessis the following "wrong":17:49
timelessMaemo Source Application platform partly developed by OSSO17:49
timelesshrm, some whitespace got lost17:49
* timeless wonders if that P should be capitalized17:49
rhsanbornSilly question, but does anyone know if i can simply recompile certain apps using the maemo sdk in order to make them work on my tablet (no gui, so that isn't a concern)17:49
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timelessrhsanborn: as long as the libs aren't unhappy, it should work17:49
timelessare you trying to use os2006 software on os2007?17:50
timeless"Open Source Application Platform for Internet Tablets partly developed by OSSO"17:50
rhsanbornI'm trying to compile latex for the 80017:50
osfameronwhat is OSSO ?17:50
Jaffatimeless: Why bother with the OSSO reference? It's technically meaningless to anyone outside of Nokia17:50
lardmanIs OSSO a company? I thought it was some kind of acronym17:50
dwdlardman: Dept within Nokia.17:51
JaffaIt's a Nokia department/team.17:51
lardmanAh, I see17:51
timeless"Open Source Application Platform for Internet Tablets"17:51
osfameronbasically they package existing open source apps to make them broken on Maemo? ;-)17:51
lardmanSounds fine17:51
timeless"Open Source application platform for Internet Tablets"17:51
timelessosfameron: they write their own broken apps too17:52
timelessyou can't forget them17:52
Jaffatimeless: "Open source application platform for Nokia's Internet Tablets" (since nothing else uses/can use it yet)17:52
osfamerontimeless: aha, thanks, I had forgotten that :-)17:52
dwdtimeless: Does "Internet Tablets" have an entry?17:52
timelessjaffa: not true17:52
lardmantimeless: No reason why Open Source should be capitalised either then17:52
timelessjaffa: there's this group in china which used it17:52
timelesslardman: sold17:52
Jaffatimeless: that's unproven - and probably untrue.17:52
JaffaUnless you know better?17:52
Takif I have an SDL app with a desktop entry, do I need to do something special with dbus to get this app to show in the taskbar when it's launched from the command line?17:52
timelessi don't know better17:53
dwdTak: Yes. :-) There was some intensive discussion about this on the list, erm, last month or so.17:53
timelessall i have is what i see on planet17:53
* Tak searches17:53
Jaffatimeless: There's no reference to it using Maemo, and I believe the expert consensus was that it was probably a UI ripoff, rather than Maemo itself.17:53
timelessthere's no reason to think anyone would be stupid enough to reinvent nokia's platform w/ the same ui l&f17:53
handful__osfameron : The need to conect on localhost is beyond our limits17:53
timelessjaffa: really?17:53
mgedminTak: probably17:53
mgedminthere was something in the wiki about SDL apps and getting them into the taskbar17:53
Jaffatimeless: Also, *technically* it could just be the Hildon Desktop, rather than Maemo - but let's not get into that ;-)17:54
handful__osfameron : the browser just does that.. we tried to pack on "dummy localhost" connection, but users were not happy with that..17:54
handful__I thought that the N800 would not need that hack : /17:54
timelessthis document mentions hildon but doesn't define it17:54
timelesstoo bad17:54
* timeless wonders what a hildon is17:54
timelessand no, this document doesn't define internet tablet17:54
timelessinstead it was using words which aren't correct17:55
dwdtimeless: Aw. You're missing out on a wonderful circular reference opportunity, there.17:55
timelessdwd: i won't miss17:55
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* timeless imagines googling for hildon17:55
osfameronhandful__: ah, fair enough.  It's a shame though.  Can you provide an alternative UI for the same functionality in the end?17:56
* timeless decides googling for itdoesn't work17:56
mgedminhildon sounds like a hotel17:56
timelesshilton's expensive17:56
osfameronhandful__: by the way, Canola is very nice.  Much less buggy than the default app, it has a sane sorting order for media tracks etc.17:56
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timelessand probably comfortable17:56
* timeless can't say the same for hildon17:56
osfameronhandful__: I don't like though the fact that you can't click on all the tracks to play them, only the one that you're currently scrolled under.17:57
mgedminosfameron: fixable with a hidden gconf key17:58
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lardmanTak: Found it?:
Takyeah, I'm editing it now ;-)17:58
osfameronmgedmin: which?17:58
osfameronmgedmin: (given that I seem to spend a large amount of time whining about various different software, I don't know which you're referring to :-)17:59
timelesshildon is mildly public, right? since it defines widgets for the platform17:59
mgedminosfameron: canola and tapping17:59
* mgedmin looking for the bug number now17:59
timelesswhich you guys have been unable to indicate whether it's maemo or not :)17:59
osfameronmgedmin: cool!  I'm baffled as to what that isn't default, but cool nonetheless18:00
mgedminI'm also baffled18:00
osfameronmgedmin: how do I edit gconf in maemo - is there an app to do it I've missed?18:00
mgedmincanola developers say they tried it and it "didn't work"18:00
mgedminrun that gconftool command mentioned in the bug comments in xterm/ssh18:01
osfameronwell, it seems from the bug report that they prefer it that way18:01
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handful__osfameron : you can actually do that18:01
handful__but we disabled after some usability tests..18:01
osfameronah, it's a command line tool, cool18:02
osfameronhandful__: that seems very strange18:02
handful__and of course.. because the plan was to have the same ui also controllable by a simple remote control...etc18:02
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handful__yes.. they do WANT to choose18:02
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handful__but if the highlight is not the conventional one ... they got lost18:02
osfameronhandful__: I found it utterly unintuitive :-)  I initially concluded that all the playlists apart from "All" were broken, and that for the beta you hadn't implemented ALbum/Genre/Song/Random18:02
Jaffatimeless: Hildon is (almost?) entirely open source. It's a framework on top of Gtk+ and DBUS for running applications. It runs on Linux. Maemo is an open source operating system, based on Linux, which forms the basis of Nokia's OS 200x software releases. Hildon runs on Maemo and provides the task navigator, status bar, home applets etc. on your 770/N800.18:02
dwdI noticed gconf editor in the repositories today, which is handier than gconftool for fiddles and tweaks.18:03
handful__so, until we are able to redesign to make a better list design, with no floating selection.. but rather a focus -> selection...18:03
dwdJaffa: Hildon isn't a component of Maemo, then?18:03
handful__yes, but that's why the "selection" area is so proeminent18:03
Jaffadwd: Given the work on running the Hildon Desktop outside of Maemo itself (e.g. on Ubuntu etc.) I'd say "no". However it's a semantic point, since the only thing really using Hildon is Maemo ;-)18:04
osfameronhandful__: well, even I did eventually work it out :-)18:04
mgedminhandful__: have you tried making taps on menu items scroll the list down (or up) until the item you tapped on becomes selected?18:04
handful__well, to be able to work with 4-way rocker + remote control + fingers was the way to go... there's always a price to pay18:04
handful__mge -> yes..18:04
mgedminand your testers didn't like it?18:04
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handful__but when you do this it would only work.. if the selection is in the middle18:04
dwdJaffa: Well, that's no argument - the Linux kernel runs pretty fine outside Maemo too.18:04
handful__when the selection shows only 1 item above it  is a mess18:04
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timelessjaffa: sorry to nag, may i use that text?18:05
Jaffadwd: yes, you wouldn't say the Linux kernel was under the "Maemo" umbrella, even though the Linux kernel is a critical part of Maemo (I realise I may have misparsed your original question)18:05
mgedminstill would be useful for short lists (all/random/artist/genre/etc)18:05
handful__that's why now.. that the remote requiremet is dead, and we are really working on aa new ui18:05
Jaffatimeless: of course18:05
wumpuswell at least I used the hildon color selector outside maemo :)18:05
timelessthanks :)18:05
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handful__but I will publish the G-conf line18:06
timelessjaffa: and yes, i know this is rediculous18:06
handful__and you can set it =) we almost placed it on the configure tool18:06
dwdJaffa: So Maemo could be best described as the base distribution of the open source components used in the Nokia Internet Tablets.18:06
Jaffadwd: so yes, Hildon is a necessary part of Maemo, but Hildon doesn't depend on Maemo.18:06
mgedminhandful__: why didn't you place in the configure tool?18:06
Jaffadwd: That's how I'd describe it.18:06
mgedminbecause checkboxes that mean "unbreak the software please" are bad? ;-)18:07
handful__mge : we didn't got the n800 and we were 1 month late18:07
timelessi'll try really hard ot publish this mess18:07
timelessi promise18:07
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handful__so we had a very very tight todo list : /18:07
timeless(it's a threat of sorts)18:07
handful__but there's also a lot of other UI issues that I'm redesigning... that I also consider critical, and finally we will be able to do it faster with the new drawing API18:08
* timeless frowns18:09
timelessthis last question's kinda stupid, i don't think i can ask it :(18:09
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Jaffatimeless: a computer is "an electronic device which follows a stored program to carry out one or more tasks" ;-)18:10
dwdJaffa: No, the program need not be stored, as such.18:10
mgedminhandful__: you rock!18:11
Takis it too late to request a non web-based configure tool? ;-)18:11
osfameronhandful__: yeah, canola++, minor niggles notwithstanding18:11
handful__TAK :18:11
osfameronI wondered a bit about the UI being non-native, but I sort of see the point if it's means for remote control from other devices too I guess18:12
Jaffadwd: in the classical sense it must - i.e. it's in memory18:12
* mgedmin googles for "canola faq"18:12
handful__the problem with a non web tool is : too much components to create dude : / it's almost making a brand new toolkit, and serious we don't have enough resources forthat18:12
mgedmina bit of an ungooglable phrase :/18:12
Jaffadwd: The quibbles being over exactly *what* was the first electronic stored program computer.18:12
mgedminhandful__: why isn't canola open source?18:12
X-Fadehandful__: You could always release the source and get community support ;)18:12
handful__osfameron : yes.. canola was developed outside scratchbox.. runs beautifully on the desktop18:12
mgedminI'd be happy to try adding configuration options to the canola-ish pretty user interface18:13
Takif canola was gpl (or mit or whatever), I bet some community members would contribute a configuration tool pretty quickly18:13
dwdJaffa: Well, we could start quibbling over "electronic". A computer is merely an entity which performs computation.18:13
handful__mgedmin: Managers decison. but after a lot of talk, my last arguments conviced them..18:13
* Tak ^5s mgedmin 18:13
handful__we are going to  to release almost everything of its source18:13
handful__X-fade : of course.. that's what we want18:13
Takthat's great news18:13
handful__but even that.. create a toolkit is too much : /18:13
dwdJaffa: But the term is generally used to mean specifically electronic, and, more commonly, digital electronic computers, now.18:13
TakI don't think a new toolkit needs to be created18:14
mgedminit would be great to have canola-ish toolkit, I think18:14
Takfor example, adding and removing things from the media scanlist can be handled like the app manager18:14
handful__and lets be honest is just non-sense to make a lot of things just to enable configuration =) lets focus on a great experience while using it.. and when dirty configuration comes.. we can lose only 5% of our time on it =)18:14
dwdhandful__: But if you have a distinct configuration store (you do, presumably, use gconf), then in principle, that could be written to use GTK+.18:14
handful__dwd : if you want to create a GTK tool, then no problem =)18:15
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X-FadeI really don't mind the configuration web interface. I rarely use it. The Canola gui on the other hand, I use a lot..18:15
handful__What I'm saying here.. is having a SDL configuration tool is not a good option18:15
dwdhandful__: No, because a) I have quite enough programming to do, and b) I can't really see the point in helping a closed-source project without being able to invoice at the end.18:15
mgedminI don't suppose it would be easy to add non-full-screen mode to canola?18:16
handful__and we went with the WEB option cause we can really use it in our laptops, etc.. so while browsing.. you can add new feeds, copy and paste from your desktop stuff..18:16
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handful__dwd : I didn't mean "if you want.. do your self" I wanted to mean "yes it's possible, it's doable"18:16
handful__but then one of our requirements was : remote configuration : )18:17
dwdhandful__: Oh, and I should point out - Telomer can be (and usually is) configured from a PC or a laptop, and has no web interface.18:17
handful__yes a lot of things can be like that.. the problem is what you said.. we have limited resources, so, we went for the fastest one18:18
handful__and we don't need to ask users to install anything, neither make packages for macs, windows and linux on desktop :18:18
rhsanbornSilly question, but from where does one dl canola?18:21
handful__anyways.. was a tough decision =) I'm the Ui guy remember =)  I would REALLY love to make some finger based configuration hehehehe =) but I don't decide budgets..etc18:21
Takdoes anybody happen to know: do I need to export SDL_VIDEO_X11_WMCLASS before I launch the app, or can I set it programmatically inside the app using putenv() ?18:21
mgedminTak: the wiki said you can use putenv...18:21
mgedminto be safe I'd do that before calling SDL initialization functions18:21
lardmanWhat happens if your plain X11 app creates multiple windows? Do they appear on the taskbar, or vanish?18:22
Takoh wow18:22
Takapparently I've forgotten how to scroll down before asking silly questions18:22
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lardmanhandful__: The link at the bottom of that page is wrong - too many w's18:23
handful__well I did my share of the work I think =) we did it, it's at least a little bit stable, I talked for months to release it open source.. now it's going to be (at least most of it) and I really don;t see the point of not releasing it all ehehhe18:23
handful__lardman : thanks I will fix now18:23
lardmanhandful__: to be exact18:23
handful__fixed =)18:24
handful__will upload in the next open network I can find =)18:25
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handful__gotta go!18:45
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elephantumis it possible to install additional video codecs on n800?18:49
pbrookOr you can install mplayer ;-)18:49
zuh(not in any "supported" way tough)18:49
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elephantumzuh: can you give me a hint, I cant find solution in internet18:51
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tuxpergerintermittent reboot/reboot loops: a software problem?18:53
c0ffeeif it stops when you reflash, yes :)18:55
tuxpergerc0ffee: Haven't tried yet18:55
tuxpergerIt stopped all by itself... last week my 770 was very sick. Now, like new18:55
tuxpergerthe lifeguard restart flagged hcid -n... yes I have been tinkering with BT18:57
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zuhelephantum: Well, first you compile the gstreamer plugins you want in scratchbox, then you copy them on the device, then you pray that the media player is not too hardcoded to take it into use...19:11
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zuhelephantum: I'm not sure if the media player actually notices anything but the preinstalled modules, but I've been playing with theora and ogg myself from the command line19:13
dwdzuh: I found some instructions on all that, but I could never get even Ogg/Vorbis playing off the commandline.19:15
zuhWhich instructions?19:16
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dwdzuh: Um... Mentioned a couple of weeks ago on the list. Pointed me at a multimedia HOWTO for Maemo.19:21
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tkoall developers are following the first point here, right? :)19:25
nomistko: yep. Providing shell scripts called "iptables" is the first step  :)19:27
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Jaffanomis: :)19:30
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nomistko: never mind, I was referring to this pointless "firewall" discussion on the mailinglist.19:31
tkothought so19:31
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keesjI think that people are trying to run vpn's on the device19:33
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keesjtko: the problem is where to find good people willing to do tech support.19:38
keesjI do enjoy  joel's posts a lot.19:38
disqback, hi.19:39
Takif there were more good employers, there would be more good employees19:40
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osfameronSV ?19:40
cxmacHey guys, I have a basic question about the n800's directory structure.  I used bluetooth to transfer a file over to my n800 and put it in a directory visible to the File Manager called 'games'.  I'd like to move it to /Home/user/games, but I'm not sure where it is located right now.19:41
Takso very19:41
tkoso very ?19:41
tkocxmac, probably /home/user/MyDocs/.games19:41
cxmacok, MyDocs - cool19:41
cxmacI'll check.19:41
Takcxmac: that folder is actually /home/user/MyDocs/.documents/.games19:42
cxmacOh, I get it.  I wasn't seeing the .-hidden directories19:42
osfameronyeah.  that completely confused me one time19:43
osfameronI'd deleted stuff off the MMC, but of course it was still in .Trash, and therefore the media player saw it19:43
tkoTak, that's on 77019:43
Takomg, is it different on n800?19:43
cxmacrad, found it at /home/users/.MyDocs/.games19:43
Takwtf is the point of that?!19:44
tkogames as documents subfolder. wtf is the point of that?! :)19:44
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TakI agree that it was stupid in the first place, but changing it is worse19:44
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keesjTak:  have you been reading Joel :p19:53
Takbut of course19:53
keesjI really start to enjoy such posts and books, I used to only read tech stuff19:54
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timelesstigert: the vkb isn't properly plankton placed20:13
timelessno padding on right or bottom20:14
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tigertthis is insanely awesome20:54
tigerttimeless: is there padding on the other themes on right or bottom? :)20:55
disqecho "your system is now secured"20:55
disqheh this thread is awesome (and boring. at the same time)20:56
mgedminthe guy is amazing20:56
mgedmin"I demand my placebo!"20:56
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Takthe whole thread is amazing20:58
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user_anyone havin trouble with canola config? keeps askin for a password21:28
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Takdid you set a password initially?21:29
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user_sorry for the repeat, spotty net connection here. anyone  else havin trouble with canola config.  keeps askin for  password21:35
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dolfuncanola is vpn client?21:36
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keesjuser_: it must be a opera issue , try looking in the opera settings21:36
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Takcanola is a media player21:37
keesjdolfun: canola is a "media-center"21:37
dolfunheh oop21:37
dolfunwas thinking of "racoon"... too many drugs...21:38
keesjhaving carnaval?21:38
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dolfuncarneval here is in full swing... not me though21:48
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dolfuncarne-vale.. meat adieu21:49
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jobihi all21:53
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chxi saw on the toughtflix blog how he made a mini laptop but I would more like a case which is similar in size to the N800 and yet it can keep a foldable keyboard and the N800 together -- the whole thing is pointless if I need a desk for the thing22:04
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Guard][anhow to constrain the maximum size of a widget ? hook the size request signal ,22:10
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zuhDepends on the situation, could you be more specific?22:13
zuhSize request is not the signal that actually determines the size, there is no benefit over listening to it instead of simply setting the size request.22:15
zuhThe actual size comes in size-allocate22:15
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zuhAnd depends on the parent container22:15
zuhIf the parent supports hints like expand and fill, you can just state a size request, set expand and fill to false and have the desired effect22:17
Guard][anthe situation is: i have a gtkbutton22:17
Guard][anwhich i want to be fixed size22:17
zuhIf not, well... you need to hack, and it's going to be ugly.22:17
Guard][anfixed width to be precise22:17
Guard][anand i would like the label to wrap22:17
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Guard][anthe button is placed inside a GtkFixed container22:18
disqsizing in gtk is tricky. i still don't understand/remember it after 9 years :P22:18
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zuhPfft, it just has some quirks, that's all :)22:18
Takiirc GtkFixed is goofy anyway22:19
zuhFixed is a big dummy22:19
Guard][anbut i'm asked to do a skinned gui :)22:20
zuhIt takes the childs size request and gives it back as-is IIRC22:20
Guard][anfixed positionning and sizes22:20
mgedminuse sdl :)22:20
Guard][anexpand, and fill are there properties ? i don't see this in GtkContainer22:21
zuhGuard][an: They are properties of the GtkBox IIRC22:21
zuhGuard][an: But with Fixed you should be able to just set_size_request() and always get that22:21
Guard][ani do a gtk_widget_set_size_request on my button22:22
Guard][anbut then, depending on the locale, the label of the button may be too long22:22
Guard][anand in such a case i would like it to wrap (which is not done automatically)22:22
Guard][anwhat's happening is that the label is cut22:23
Guard][anbut the button is sized so that if line wrapping can be enabled, then it would fit22:23
Guard][ananyway, gtk_button_set_label calls a private gtk_button_construct_child which just creates a new GtkLabel at every call which is dumb imho :(22:24
Guard][anGtkButton is done in such a way that if you want to change the label of the button for some reason, it involes bunches of memcopy and widget creation22:24
zuhHmm, if I'm not mistaken, you can access the label directly with GTK_BIN(button)->child22:25
zuhAnd set it to wrapping that way22:25
zuhor set the text in the label22:26
Guard][anyeah could work22:26
zuhAnd the button internal structure is a bit odd indeed...22:27
Guard][anit's a hack anyway since the GtkButton stores the label 2 times: 1 time as a property, 1 time as a GtkLabel that itself stores a copy of the label22:27
Guard][andoesn't seem very effcient to me22:27
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zuhSounds more like "backwards compatible" :)22:28
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Guard][an"retard compatible" :D22:29
zuhPeople like you hacking on the internals make it necessary not to break the scheme ;)22:33
zuhactually it's the other way round22:34
zuhThe property and convenience APIs are the ones that require that22:34
zuhOtherwise buttons would be just containers and you'd have to build the label yourself22:35
zuhevery time22:35
zuhWhich would btw be a viable option for you too :)22:35
Guard][ani guess i'll write a custom widget22:35
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Guard][ancopy/pasting GtkLabel as a base22:35
Guard][anlike i already mentioned, i would also have been grateful if shaping windows from gtkrc was possible :)22:37
zuhWhy custom widget? Just create a label, set it to wrapping, give it a size request and pack it into the button?22:38
zuhAnd for custom widgets, deriving is better than c&p... It's a OO-like scheme after all.22:39
Guard][anactually, manipulating the label directly is a wise advice22:41
Guard][ani just need to prevent the label from expanding22:41
tkoGuard][an, shaping windows from gtkrc works with sapwood :)22:44
Guard][antko: yeah i discovered that22:44
Guard][antko: btw do you know what's the use of the sapwood server ?22:45
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zuhGuard][an: He should, he wrote it :P22:45
tkoGuard][an, it 'owns' the pixmaps so that there's only one copy ever22:45
tkoresource management basically22:46
tkoI've been meaning to write docs but more urgent stuff just keeps popping up22:47
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Guard][analso, it would have been great to have a theme engine that supports css22:49
Guard][anbut i guess the way gtk works it would not be possible to do positionning22:49
Takimo that's a horrible idea22:49
Guard][anTak: why ?22:49
koenqt4 has it22:50
Guard][anas far as I know, the theme painting functions are just passed a drawable and a region to paint in22:50
koenGuard][an: glade+gtkrc combined would be what you want22:50
Guard][ankoen: yes, don't know if qtopia has it though22:50
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Guard][anyeah well not exactly since I guess that glade produces an xml description and the positioning information is inside this xml, and cannot be altered from an external stylesheet22:51
tkofunny how apple gets along with just one theme (if I've understood it correctly)22:52
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koentko: sort of22:52
koenthere's 'white' and 'metal'22:52
Guard][ankoen: glade+gtkrc+scripting could be fun22:52
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koen(apply fanboy, you may start flaming me)22:52
Takbring all the uncertainty and headache of web design to applications?  no thank you22:54
Takand I dislike qt :-P22:54
Guard][ani don't see it this way :)22:54
Guard][anand for sure, it depends on what you want to achieve22:55
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Takyou could always use gtkhtml ;-)22:55
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zuhGuard][an: You could always alter the glade file. Make a program that getenv()'s the file name to load and then just export yours into the environment or something...23:01
Guard][anwell i'm googling for glade23:02
Guard][annever used it23:02
garrettglade is interesting23:04
garrettyou have to wrap your mind around it a bit23:04
zuhIt's simple really, just describing the widget tree, their properties and the properties of the relations in xml23:05
zuhThen there is libglade to load the files in apps and glade to create them with a gui23:05
TakI wish libglade would be merged into gtk core23:06
tko2.12 might have gtkbuilder23:06
zuhIf it gets ready by that...23:07
tkoand reviewed and ...23:07
Guard][angtkbuilder is another project ? why not use libglade then ?23:07
tkolike I said, 'might'23:07
tkogtkbuilder is libglade done right, or so23:08
zuhlibglade is old and moldy, it's about time to do it again... :)23:09
Guard][anwork sponsored by Nokia, hmm in the context of maemo and the internet tablet ?23:09
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Guard][an --> for instance, instead of having <keysizes> and <size> markups that mix content and presentation, the "class" attribute could have been used like in html23:26
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|mk8|Hi to all ...23:33
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sp3000Guard][an: it's really all presentation, <row> and whatnot aren't that abstractly content23:59

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