IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2007-02-18

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maddlerdum dee daaa...00:47
maddlerboring night...00:47
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maddlermgedmin: noway... the bug is still here... :(00:55
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maddlerKnirch: ayo!00:55
mgedminhow many icons do you have?00:55
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maddlermgedmin: 901:00
maddlerif I'm correct...01:00
maddlercorrect=right :)01:00
maddlerrebooting device01:00
mgedminenabling bluetooth...01:01
mgedminnow I also have 901:01
mgedminno errors01:01
maddlereh... I believe you... the point is: what the hell makes *clock annoying?01:02
maddlerthe only thing I did is reinstalling canola...01:02
maddlerso... is there something *clock and canola share?01:03
Magiomfg...BT keyboard and phone connection can not work at the same time?01:03
maddlerMagi: hmmm... THIS is annoying...01:03
maddlerconsidering I was only buy a BT kbd to be used when abroad...01:04
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SulisMagi: seriously?01:04
MagiIt seems so01:05
Sulisargh, nooo01:05
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MagiI'll have to recheck but...01:07
mgedminI have the clock, I have canola, but I don't have the bug01:07
maddlermgedmin: eh... so... who knows?!01:07
maddlernow I have enabled all the icons for statusbar (8) and everything is fine...01:08
maddlernow... let me enable statusbarclock and reboot...01:08
MagiHmm, maybe I was wrong, now I got them both connected... but occasionally they just don't connect01:09
mgedminnope, a new icon appearing in the middle of the statusbar does not trigger the bug01:10
maddlermgedmin: no... it only shows at boot time...01:12
SulisMagi: that's not too bad, as long as they *can* be connected and used at the same time01:12
maddlerif you add/remove/change statusbar icons everything is fine...01:12
MagiWell, my 6310i freezes completely (have to remove battery) about every second time I make BT connection to it, but... sometimes it works.01:12
* mgedmin reboots01:13
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Sulisthat does't sound fun at all01:13
mgedmin8 icons, no problems01:13
* maddler enables statusbarclock and reboots as well...01:13
MagiIt has to be n800 settings, because BT+gprs has worked just fine with laptop for years01:14
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maddlerI have 9 icons and no problems now...01:14
maddlerlet me reboot...01:14
maddlerbtw, I had 9 icons (8 + statusbarclock) before and the bug showed...01:15
maddlerno bug this time...01:16
maddlerlet me reboot again...01:16
maddlerso... what the hell triggers the bug?01:16
maddlerbecause, I mean, we've got a bug...01:16
maddlerworkegd again...01:18
* mgedmin sleeps01:18
mgedmin*yawn* bye!01:18
maddlerso... mumble... the only thing I changed this time is adding hciconfig hci0 up to rcS01:18
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maddlermgedmin: see you...01:18
Sulismaddler: what is this bug?01:19
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maddlersee the triangle overlapping the first icon...01:19
Sulislol, that's good01:20
Sulisdoes it still work as an icon when it's like that?01:20
maddlereh... the point is that I cannot find what actually causes the bug...01:20
Sulisdo the other icons work?01:21
maddleryou can't show other icons nor use the overlapped icon...01:21
maddlerother shown icons work perfectly...01:21
maddlerbtw... everything is ok now...01:22
maddlerthat's soooo strange...01:23
Sulisyou can't reproduce the bug, difficult...01:24
maddlersometimes it's here... sometimes it's not...01:27
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maddlerok... time to hit the bed here...01:36
maddlersee you next time...01:36
Sulissee you01:40
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gaborhi all02:03
gaborCould someone help me install scratchbox please...02:03
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jonnylambgabor: what's up?02:03
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gaborI don't have enough space on /02:04
gaborbut have plenty on /mnt/10GBHDD02:04
gaborI think I need a symlink?02:04
konfooyou cant symlink?02:04
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konfooor just mount that disk directly to the scratchbox02:05
gaborI have made one with ln -s /mnt/10GBHDD /scratchbox02:05
gaborbut I get error messages when scratchbox is installed02:05
gabormore precisely: ln -s /mnt/10GBHDD/scratchbox /scratchbox02:06
konfooi dont see why you are symlinking it if you are mounting the entire drive02:06
gaborI want to install scratchbox to this other drive02:06
konfoorm /scratchbox make a scratchbox pysical dir and edit your fstab mountpoint for the 10gbhdd to be /scratchbox02:07
gaborhmmm that sounds interesting02:07
gaborbut I want to use that HDD for other things too02:07
gabornot only scratchbox02:08
gaborthat's why I wanted to symlink to only a folder in it02:08
konfooeh you just said youre symlinking the entire drive02:08
gabormore precisely: ln -s /mnt/10GBHDD/scratchbox /scratchbox02:08
* sp3000 just installed to another drive with -s, that seems to work so far, haven't played much with it yet tho02:09
sp3000mind you it didn't like the nosuid,nodev that it happened to have initially :)02:09
* sp3000 assumes one of those was the issue02:10
gaborsp3000, so how did you change settings to make it work OK?02:11
sp3000sudo mount -oremount ... went to defaults in this case02:14
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Schmotsanyone else here booting a n800 from mmc/sd?03:47
Schmots... wait.. Crahan???03:47
SchmotsThat you man?03:47
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mrspockiegood morning10:56
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klattimerhey all, i have a problem with my n800, it just won't boot anymore. When I turn it on it comes up with the nokia logo, then after a few minutes the screen goes black briefly then it goes back to the nokia logo. This started happening after the device locked up on me. any ideas?11:18
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inzklattimer, try flasher --set-rd-flags=no-lifeguard-reset11:21
Jaffakeesj: ping (libwxlua is having its patch of libwxlua-dev.install failing)11:21
klattimercheers inz11:21
klattimerwill do11:21
koenJaffa: how's mud coming along?11:22
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inzklattimer, it might not help too much though, it the bootup process is broken too early (for example broken busybox)11:23
Jaffakoen: reasonably well. Not managed to successfully upload anything to extras yet, and there are some project workflow issues, but nothing too serious.11:23
klattimerError claiming USB interface: Operation not permitted11:23
Jaffakoen: some nice packages like lua, ruby, libwxlua etc in there.11:24
keesjJaffa: it used to work , I will look into it11:24
koenJaffa: bummer that uploading still doesn't work11:24
Jaffakeesj: ta11:24
klattimermy n800 is a brick isn't it inz11:25
Jaffakoen: I'm probably doing something stupid, but I've not had time to retry11:25
keesjI just blogged about it :p11:25
Jaffaklattimer: no, that's fine - try doing it as root on your PC11:25
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klattimernow its hanging with a little maemo icon with a wrench on it11:27
keesjJaffa: I think I might be better of create our own repository11:29
keesjThis would also allow us to give some stats :p11:30
klattimerinz still not booting11:30
keesjJaffa: this one also sounds great #405: Add packages for PocketSphinx and SphinxBase packages from for embedded speech recognition. (contributed by Jeff Buchbinder)11:30
Jaffakeesj: For testing, yes - however I'm fed up with the prevalence of repositories on maemo. It's easy for the developer, but hard for the user. Lazy developers are good for code efficiency, but bad for usability.11:31
Jaffakeesj: yeah, my question on that is "does it actually work?" ;-)11:31
keesjI will give is a try :p11:32
keesjit that a requirement?11:32
JaffaWell, as long as it does something :)11:32
keesjit compiles , ship it11:32
keesjI am not resposible for the software, only the packaging + patches11:33
klattimerinz still getting lockups and resets, this time with some green writing on the screen (kernel and hardware info) and a maemo icon with a wrench on it11:33
Jaffakeesj: yes, but I don't want to upload crap to extras - since, again, that pisses off users.11:33
klattimerits booting11:34
keesjBut if it works and we understand what it is, it is probabely deserves some attention :p11:34
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Jaffakeesj: agreed11:34
keesjJaffa: on what?11:35
Jaffathe last thing you said about deserving attention11:35
keesjJaffa: what is the problem in wxlua dev? the cpp source or are there other problems?11:39
keesjthe build works4me11:39
klattimerwill the next maemo have a mobile phone in it?11:39
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keesjklattimer: I hope/think so11:42
keesjperhaps only for data traffic?11:43
klattimercan i trade this one in you recon? i got it as part of the 50011:43
keesjI think so because the h9 also has such features and it looks like most linux based pda's will have such a feature. unless there are other policital issues , I can't imagine nokia not following the trend11:45
keesjmaddler: I have many problems with the skins on maemopeople , "the work" skin does not work either11:46
klattimeranyone got any debs for the plankton theme?11:47
klattimerfound it11:47
klattimerbeen dying to try this theme out11:47
Jaffakeesj: using 2.1, 2.2 or 3.0?11:53
klattimernot sure whether or not I'm glad I live inside of a faraday cage, I can't play with the FM tuner on my n800, but tempest technology doesn't work to snoop on me11:55
klattimeris it worth the trade off?11:56
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keesjJaffa: 3.012:03
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klattimerthis thing just keeps turning into a brick!12:04
klattimerevery reboot is like playing roulette12:05
keesjI just tried with a 2.x sb and the patching fails :( I will post the diff between the two original generated files,12:08
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keesjJaffa: can you also look at the other bugs and perhaps add me as admin or similar12:15
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keesjklattimer: " is it worth the trade off" what are you reffering to?12:28
* keesj has to go12:29
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maddlerkeesj: "work" skin is meant to be used as a base for new skins12:40
maddlerkeesj: other skins may have some minor issues, drop me a line if you found something that needs to be fixed12:41
maddlerkeesj: I'm working on a couple new maemo related skins also12:41
klattimerkeej nm12:46
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tigertkeesj: why would you want to get ANOTHER sim card to use data connection on your N800?12:55
tigertor N-whatever if there was one with a gsm module?12:56
tigertI am a lot more happy with a bluetooth phone that is reasonably sized for voice calls12:56
tigertand using that for a connectivity over bluetooth12:56
tigertwhile its in the pocket12:56
tigertanother gsm unit means another data plan and another contract etc12:56
* wumpus agrees with tigert 12:57
wumpusalso less battery life probably12:57
tigertand I wouldnt want that (even though my current stuff is paid by the employer anyway)12:57
tigertbut its kinda silly, as you have the phone anyway12:57
tigertI wouldnt want to *talk* using the N800  while walking12:57
tigertsometimes you dont want to use headphone set12:58
tigertbut just walk without the gear and then you get a call, you just take the reasonably-sized cellphone out and talk12:58
tigertit would be a sucky phone replacement12:58
tigertit works fine for voip calls and videochat when you are in a suitable place of course12:59
tigertI think the bluetooth + wlan is just right12:59
tigertbut maybe I don't see it how those people who say "nokia = must be a phone" see it13:00
tigertsee it the same way I mean13:00
tigertfunctionally it does not even matter13:00
tigertI select *go to internet* using cellular provider.13:00
tigertand it goes to internet using cellular provider13:00
tigertsure, it does it via my phone over bluetooth, but what's the difference to me?13:01
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klattimertigert, your theme rocks!13:01
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tigertheh thanks :)13:08
maddlertigert: yes, I think that the point is "if it comes from Nokia it *has* to have a phone!"13:09
tigertmaddler: people are so stuck in their mindset13:09
maddlertigert: indeed...13:09
klattimerno thank you13:09
tigertthe same is this "it must have PIM to be successful handheld"13:09
klattimerit doesn't look like horse shit any more13:09
tigertwhich, arguably, could be true also13:09
klattimerwould love some tango icons though13:09
tigertI dont think the answer is "I have my stuff with me in my pocket"13:09
tigertbut rather "I have a device that lets me get my stuff on the net wherever I am"13:10
maddlerever, and I mean *EVERY* time I talk about 770/N800, people insist that "it has to be a phone"13:10
tigertmaddler: yeah13:10
tigertbrain turmors or something I guess13:10
tigertmaddler: but when you think of it - it HAS cellular connectivity13:10
tigertfor me as a user it does 3G connection just fine13:10
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maddlertigert: hehehe... yep... I always preferred having a PDA and a "real" Phone13:10
zeenixthats not as disturbing as people telling me about problems with their nokia phones :)13:10
tigertI dont even care it goes over bluetooth to the phone first13:11
tigertits the same thing nevertheless13:11
tigertI can browse the web. mission accomplished.13:11
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maddlertigert: right13:11
tigertzeenix: heh13:11
maddlerand also I think about disaster recovery... :)13:11
maddlerhaving a single device = single point of failure ;)13:11
tigertI am totally thinking of this device as a mobile terminal13:12
tigertI dont care if it has storage or not13:12
tigertits more useful as a blog reader (data is online), rss reader (data is online), gmail (data is online) etc13:12
tigertI'd love to have a good podcast tool13:12
maddlertigert: yep, but I also use it to have my "secure" environment at hand13:12
tigertand a tool to post blogs and podcasts on the go13:12
tigertsome local storage is good13:13
tigertbut an ipod is an ipod13:13
tigertthis is about connectivity13:13
tigertI'd love to have a working google calendar and google documents13:13
tigertthat is more like what I mean13:13
tigertof course13:13
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tigertnative apps would be good13:13
tigertbut they should work with the online datastores13:14
tigertie, Notes should give me my google docs13:14
maddlerthe only thing I really miss from the Palm era is a good PIM13:14
maddlerbut that's not a big problem, I'm more than happy with E61 functionalities13:14
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tigertyeah, a good calendar would rock13:14
tigertbut it should seamlessly just use the google calendar data13:15
maddlertigert: yep, there was Agendus on Palm13:15
maddlera great piece of software...13:15 and phones is nice13:15
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maddlerdidn't know :D13:15
maddlerboth my E61 and N80 supported...13:16
maddlernice... nice...13:16
maddlergotta give it a try...13:17
maddlerbtw, Dates on N800 works pretty nice13:17
maddlerI'd love to be able to add my contacts to an appointment...13:17
tigertyea, it works nicely13:18
tigertdoes only 1 calendar for free though13:18
tigertand of course your calendar goes then to Yet Another Company :)13:18
tigertbut I just dont keep any sensitive stuff there anyway13:18
maddlertigert: same13:18
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maddlersensitive stuff are on a crypto-fs on an usb stick I always bring with me... :)13:19
* maddler is a little security-paranoic 13:20
maddlerok... time to go taste some good italian food! :D13:21
maddlersee you all later...13:21
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Jaffatigert: as I said on - purely online stuff is useless if you can't guarantee reliable, cheap and quick connectivity. And there are places where you can't get that.13:24
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mgedminhey, keesj, I cannot post a comment on your blog14:21
mgedmin"Notice: Undefined index: answer_turing_test in /var/www/ on line 116"14:22
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jtramgedmin: if you can hadle this, you are surely human ;-)14:24
mgedminI think the test tests for humans who also have write access to the PHP source code :)14:24
jtrathem too :)14:25
keesjmaddler: !!!14:29
keesjmgedmin: I can try a different theme perhaps?14:30
mgedmintheme? there's a theme?14:30
mgedminwhen I clicked on one of the themes, a new question box appeared14:31
keesjO no!! An unexpected error has occured!14:31
mgedmininitially I had plain unthemed HTML14:31
mgedminfwiw "Notice: Undefined variable: sponsored_links in /var/www/ on line 288"14:32
wumpustoo bad, you failed the turing test14:33
wumpusyou're a machine14:33
keesjI am going to try ob maddler's blog :p14:34
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keesjmgedmin: I think I will work now , i changed to the theme14:37
pbrookThe standard n800 apps use a widget for entering numbers that consists of a number enry box with + and - buttons next to it. Is this a widget I can use in my appication?14:37
mgedminhey, I posted my comment 7 minutes ago14:37
pbrookI tried GtkSpinButton, but that gives something different.14:37
wumpusit's probably one of the hildon widgets14:41
wumpusthose are specifically optimized for the devices14:41
pbrookAha, HildonNumberEditor. Thanks.14:44
keesjmgedmin: I answerd :p14:44
mgedminyeah, the maemo-mapper .install is the one that is autogenerated for the extras repository14:46
mgedminand there's
mgedminand each works for one os only14:46
mgedminis the source to the engine that powers open?14:49
mgedminhow hard would it be to add four new fields (repo name, url for os2006, url for os2007, package name) and a page that generates a .install file on the fly?14:50
mgedminI don't know any php14:50
keesjbut on download(s) there is only one link for verion 1.4 and it 2007 searching for maemo-mapper for it2006 does not even return a result14:51
mgedminyes, that's bad14:53
mgedminbut fixable14:53
keesjperhaps I would be happy with just upload .deb button14:54
jonnylambmgedmin: uses MidGard- - i expect the admins of d.m.o would be able to add any extra field..14:55
mgedminI would be happy if log in didn't take me away from the page I was intending to modify14:55
keesjupload.deb and select the versions known to work14:55
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mgedminthere's an outstanding feature request for to let users create .install files via a web form14:56
mgedminthe admins are busy on other features, I think14:56
mgedminhm, maemo-mapper 1.4 wasn't uploaded for mistral14:59
keesjand what does expect to happen when a new relase is created?14:59
keesjmgedmin: and your understanding is that uploading to mistral is enough? mistral == it2006?15:02
mgedminmistral was the code name for the SDK for the first release of IT200615:03
mgedminin theory, apps compiled for mistral work on all other IT2006 releases15:03
tigertwe suck with naming of releases15:03
mgedminnot really, but I can never remember when to duplicate letters in sccirrocco15:04
mgedminand I would say the release names blow rather than suck... hehehe15:04
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tigerttoo many overlapping schemes are crazy15:05
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keesjis there a google main command line client?15:43
Robot101what do you mean google main?15:43
keesjhmm perhaps pop will work15:44
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maddlerkeesj: :)17:06
maddleryep... I'm nice :)17:07
maddlerbeside you are not my ideal man! :D17:07
maddlerwell, I guess the problem is that you are a *man*!17:07
* maddler eats his hazelnut cake :)17:12
maddlerlet me check what's wrong on keesj's blog...17:16
maddlerhmmm... looks like turing test is working...17:19
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keesjmaddler: I changed my theme I think that it solved the problem17:22
mgedminmaddler: what was wrong was that when I first went there today, I got a completely unstyled html page17:23
mgedminwith a bunch of theme name links at the top17:23
mgedminand no turing test in the comments form17:23
GuardianWTF i want to remove "Nokia Connectivity Cable Driver" from my windows laptop, and guess what ? the uninstaller requires the installer binary !! first time i see that =))17:23
mgedminafter I chose a theme from the links above, the turing test question appeared17:23
mgedminbut now I see a php warning about an undefined variable in the footer17:24
maddleryep, I'd need a) to fix actual themes b) to create some ad-hoc themes17:24
mgedminGuardian: MS Office used that trick too17:24
Guardiantrick ?17:24
mgedmin"you want to UNinstall?  No way.  Insert the installation CD first"17:24
Guardianit's just dumb17:25
maddleranother good reason to stop using M$! :D17:25
mgedminwell, I tend to think using Windows is dumb too17:25
mgedminhello, spyware! viruses!  drm!17:25
maddlermgedmin: hahaha17:25
Guardianmaddler: is it a os issue ? or do i have to blame the trainee that built the installation package ? =)17:25
timelessthat's not fair17:25
maddlerGuardian: both I guess17:26
timelesswindows is portable, it has lots of software, including viruses17:26
timelesstry running an os2005 virus on os200617:26
maddlertimeless: windows? portable?! errr...17:26
timelessit doesn't work17:26
maddlertimeless: LOL!17:26
timelessa dos virus will work nicely on at least w9817:26
timelessprobably wme17:26
maddlerusing windows you can count on a base of 10.000+ viruses!17:26
Guardiani don't blame windows, it does its job17:27
timelessa w31 virus might work on wXP17:27
mgedmindid anyone try to port dosbox for n800?17:27
maddlerthat's Compatible(TM)!17:27
mgedminwe want dos viruses on our portable internet tablets!17:27
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Guardianmacs are supposed to be smart, but it somehow behaves strangely to me: like, it took me a while to actually understand that I had to drag the "big pastel firefox icon ball" in order to actually install the software on my mac ... :)17:27
maddleryeah! we want tons of viruses!17:28
Guardianor, put a shell script on the desktop, chmod +x, double click ==> TADA text edit !17:28
timelessguardian: it's a one time learning experience17:28
Guardianor, from command line, "$> mypetmp3player nicetune.mp3" ==> TADA here comes iTunes !17:29
maddlerI'm using Linux since 8 years now and I'm HAPPY!17:29
timelessonce you learn how to install software on a mac, you never forget17:29
Guardiantimeless: applies to all os17:29
timelessas for nicetune.mp3, "open nicetune.mp3" would work17:29
mgedminuh, oh, I sense an approaching flamewar...17:29
timelessguardian: not true17:29
timelessit might be apt-get install17:29
timelessor yum install17:29
maddlerGuardian: beside on Windows you sometimes also have to find how to uninstall as well! :DDD17:29
timelessor ./configure ; make ; make install17:29
timelessor ...17:29
Guardianso, in the end, it's just getting used to what the os expects you to do, i don't think there is one smarter than the others17:29
maddlerWinblows is NOT smart. Period!17:30
timelessbtw, how do you install photoshop on linux?17:30
Guardianwine setup.exe17:30
timelessinstalling it on windows or osx is easy17:30
timelessguardian: linux-arm17:30
timelessguardian: linux-armel17:30
Guardianmaddler: don't get me wrong, i like linux too :)17:31
timelessmaddler: insulting an os isn't a good idea17:31
timelessit's even insulting to see anyone insult an os17:31
mgedminbut it can be FUN :)17:31
timelessit shows how little they know17:31
Guardianyeah arm, armel ... which toolchain to use ? how much do i have to pray before it works ? :)17:31
timelessguardian: 2 years minimum17:32
timeless20 goats for sacrifice17:32
mgedmindon't forget the black candles17:32
timelessoh, and don't get me started on installing stuff on the n80017:32
timelessit seems someone wanted to install some 770 software17:33
maddlertimeless: in fact windows is not an O.S.17:33
timelessso they clicked a link, it17:33
timelessmaddler: nt4 is an os17:33
timelessnt5 is an os17:33
timelessnt6 is an os17:33
timeless9x isn't, but when was the last time you used it?17:33
maddlerthey only are GUIs :D17:33
timelessum, no17:33
keesjde gentoo install blijft mijn eena mooiste linux ervaring tot nu toe(de mooiste was in het dos tijdperk dat je met alt-f2 een tweede console kon opnenen)17:33
timelessChildEBP RetAddr17:33
timeless0012e76c 7c90e273 ntdll!KiFastSystemCallRet17:33
timeless0012e770 7c8634bf ntdll!NtRaiseHardError+0xc17:33
timeless0012ee20 10212e61 kernel32!UnhandledExceptionFilter+0x65317:33
timelesskernel32 is most certainly not a gui17:34
timeless(no is ntdll for that matter)17:34
timelessanyway, they clicked this thing17:34
timelessgot application installer17:34
maddlerkeesj: :)17:34
timelesswhich then at some point explained they were missing a package17:34
timelessthey cleverly said, "hey, isn't that in the repositories I have?"17:35
timelessthe answer was "yes"17:35
timelessbut no, the installer, and apt/dpkg won't bother to get the package from the repository17:35
mgedmintimeless: you are wrong here17:35
timelessmgedmin: given that i talked w/ marius17:35
mgedminthe installer/apt will get the package from a repo you have17:35
timelessand he pointed me to the code17:35
timelessand that i've read the code before17:35
timelessand know exactly what i'm talking about17:35
mgedminshow me the code please17:36
timelesshere's the key point17:36
timelessif you ask the installer to install a deb17:36
mgedminbecause it contradicts my direct experience installing software on the nokias17:36
timelessit won't check the repositores17:36
mgedminah, if you ask to install a deb, then yes, certainly17:36
timelessif you ask the installer to install a file from the repo, then yes17:36
mgedminI thought you were talking about .install files17:36
timelessi didn't say that17:36
timelessstop making bad assumptions :)17:36
mgedminI misunderstood17:36
timelessanyway, what matters is what the user experienced17:36
suihkulokkiwell, that is still not a OS issue, but a gui issue17:37
timelessthe smart user even asserted that they had properly configured the repositories17:37
timelesssuihkulokki: well, erm17:37
mgedminthe end-user experience of 3rd party packages for the tablets is not as good as it can be17:37
timelesswe're talking about installing stuff17:37
mgedminit's a system issue17:37
timelesswhich isn't necessarily the role of the os17:37
timelessin fact, none of the os's mentioned here really force how installation works17:37
timelesson osx you can have a stupid installer17:37
mgedminif you need smooth experience, you need a set of coherent, tested packages in a small set of repositories (one, preferably)17:38
timelessand on windows you can use an installer, or msi, or setup, or whatever17:38
timelessand on linux, there are dozens of ways to fail to install software17:38
timelessi just named a reasonable one17:38
mgedminclicking on a package in is a reasonable way to install software17:38
timelessnote: we did install the software, after all, all you have to do is ask for the prereq(s) from the repositories17:38
mgedminclicking on a .deb file isn't17:38
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* timeless shrugs17:39
timelesstell that to a reporter17:39
timelessor to you manager's manager17:39
timelessor your manager's peer17:39
mgedminno, tell that to nokians17:39
maddleryes, but from my point of view on a Linux box I have tons of informations to recover if something goes wrong...17:39
timelessit doesn't work so well17:39
mgedminwho should not advertise the ability to click on .debs17:39
maddleron MS a lot of time the only solution was to start from scratch and install from zero...17:39
mgedminwhen system X does something badly, it is not consoling to hear that system Y does something else badly17:40
mgedminI'd rather talk about how to improve system X17:40
timelessmgedmin: um17:40
timelessyou realize that we might have been trying to install from downloads.maemo, right? :)17:41
maddlermgedmin: absolutely yes17:41
suihkulokkiactually the problem is that third parties are too lazy to distribute their apps properly17:41
mgedminwhich, in my opinion, would be to have Ubuntu/Debian style mongo-repository that has all the software you might ever need17:41
mgedminuploaded and tested by volunteers (because it's too big of a job for a small group of nokia employees)17:41
timelessmgedmin:that's pretty much the only way to do it17:41
timelessbut what do you do when you want to buy software?17:41
mgedminsuihkulokki: partially, yes, but partially 3rd parties don't know what the proper way is17:41
* timeless pokes mgedmin ini private17:42
mgedmintimeless: buy software?  why would I ever want to do that?17:42
timelessmgedmin: i don't care about you17:42
timelessi care about my sister17:42
timelessor some other person who might actually want to17:42
mgedminI think they want to have software, rather than specifically to buy it17:42
timeless(presupposing i have a sister, but the point is that there need to be normal people buying this device)17:43
* timeless shrugs17:43
mgedminwhich means free/open-source software is a good answer17:43
mgedminwhen it does what they need17:43
keesjI guess .net,java , python and ruby are the real answers to portability17:43
timelessif she can't figure out how to use it, then it doesn't matter if you could use it to do what she needs17:43
timelesskeesj: javascript17:43
timelessthe real answer is to just let google write all apps you can possibly need17:43
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mgedmintimeless: true17:44
timelessthey'll run everywhere17:44
mgedmindo you think your hypothetical sister could figure out how to use the green "install" links on
timelesshalf of the arrows are white17:44
timelessand have scary text she probably wouldn't reed17:44
timelessbut no17:45
timelessbecause she wouldn't be able to *find* the write software17:45
keesjtimeless: I must say that I was really happy when my n800 crashed that google saved a draft of my email :p17:45
timelessi know i can't17:45
timelesskeesj: =)17:45
timelessi have 3 crashed geckos on my desktop17:45
timelessand i have 22 drafts in gmail17:45
timelessi'm most definitely glad that i don't have to trust my browser17:45
mgedmintimeless: what then would be a good way to search for software?17:45
timelessor my device's battery17:45
timelessmgedmin: dunno17:45
timelesslet's see17:45
timelessit's almost 11am on the east coast?17:46
timeless Look for applications17:46
timeless   Keyword: _____________________17:46
timeless   IT OS: [IT OS 2006]17:46
timeless   License: [Any license______]17:46
timeless   Status: [Any status_______]17:46
timeless   [ Fetch! ]17:46
keesjbut I also agree with Jaffa's post, there is a need to run the webapplications offline17:46
mgedminyeah, that's scary17:46
timelessthat's *definitely* not the way my sister is going to look for software17:46
mgedminI want a google-like interface17:46
timelesswho the **** cares/17:46
mgedminautomatic filtering by OS, if I use opera on a tablet17:46
timelessand i have no idea if keyword is remotely useful17:47
mgedminautomatic filtering out of experimental software (ones that wasn't tested and reported as working)17:47
timelesskeyword: "youtube"17:47
timeless   There is no result matching the search criteria. Please try again.17:47
timelesstheir English is also bead17:47
mgedminkeyword search is useful, when you know what you look for17:47
mgedminkeyword: "ssh"17:47
timelesswhat kind of word is that?17:47
mgedminprobably not what your sister wants :)17:47
timelessmy sister wouldn't know an ssh if it bit her17:48
mgedminplease don't tell me she uses telnet! that's not secure! *grin*17:48
timelesswell, maybe if some little kid came to her and said "shhhh"17:48
timelesstelnet? ssh? to what? why?17:48
timelessactually, she's been to college and probably does know to use ssh17:48
timelessbut let's ignore that :)17:48
keesjor "I installed ssh but nothing happens"17:49
timelessshe probably used pine at times17:49
timelesskeesj: that'd definitely happen17:49
* mgedmin tests17:49
mgedminkeyword search for "maps" finds nothing, but "map" finds maemo-mapper (and nmap)17:49
timeless   There is no result matching the search criteria. Please try again.17:49
timelesssearching for 'shell' doesn't return ssh17:50
keesjI have the luck that my girlfriend runs on gentoo :p17:50
zuhtimeless: So you are about to figure a way to find software without knowing what to look for? If you succeed, please don't patent the method so we can use it in the various other places where this exactly same problem is...17:50
keesjwhat kind of shell you you want?17:50
timelesskeesj: secure shell :)17:50
mgedminthe categories on are strange17:51
timelesssearching for ssh gives17:51
timeless   Missing .install file17:51
mgedminwhere are themes?17:51
timelessthere's a qoran thing on garage17:51
timelessand iirc some other strange christian thing17:51
mgedmintimeless: openssh has a working .install file17:51
timelessi'm too lazy to check my cross reference17:51
timelessmgedmin: i'm going to intentionally choose the worst side of all results17:51
mgedminthat's cheating!17:52
timelessin this case, i have an excuse, dropbear came first17:52
mgedminfirst out of two results17:52
timelesswhat stupid algorithm favors alphabetical over GOOD?17:52
timelesswhere we can define good to be "install file and green download icon"17:52
mgedminstupid algorithm that doesn't know good from bad, probably17:52
* timeless assumes the alg is alphabetical17:52
mgedmin+1 for hiding uninstallable software17:52
timelesshello, it knows the green arrow17:52
mgedminby default17:52
mgedminit's a bit pointless, because the pages without an .install link often have a homepage link that points to upstream, rather than a port page17:53
timelessfirst hit for 'game' is "Missing .install file"17:53
mgedminso you have absolutely NO WAY to install the thing on your tablet17:53
timelessfwiw, the list is definitely alphabetical17:53
mgedminwhich is better than arbitrary17:54
mgedminbut I'd prefer google-style smart searching17:54
timelessfavoring install files is better17:54
timelessof course, there's a minor problem17:54
mgedmina good thing to do now would be to extract constructive suggestions from this rant and post it on a blog somewhere17:54
makuchakuUmm... where can I find the *.vkb files in the scratchbox directory? Actually, i'm trying to make an indic keyboard layout - but dont know where to install the .vkb files17:54
timelesswhich is that the thing i want is crazyparking and it doesn't have an install file17:54
keesjnormal users will not even know what device they are holding17:54
mgedminor in the garage tracker for the project (was it called midgard-cms?)17:54
timelessmgedmin: please join the channel i invited you into17:55
mgedminyou did?17:55
makuchakugot it - /usr/share/keyboards17:55
mgedminoh, the server message got lost in another tab17:55
maddlermgedmin: pages on have been created importing wiki's informations...18:06
maddlermgedmin: and a lot of times links were pointing to upstream isntead of .deb location18:07
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maddlerthey need to be revised/fixed18:07
mgedminit would be good to have a split: packages ready for end-users, and packages that need some revision/fixing18:08
maddlerbtw, I think many problems comes from the fact that N800 is a commercial product powered by an open source project...18:09
maddlerso people expect to get what they are used to get from commercial stuff...18:09
timelesssuch unreasonable expectations18:09
maddleryes... also...18:09
* timeless actually hasn't heard people complaining about lack o support18:09
mgedminI look upon it as an open-source project with some unfortunate commercial tie-ins18:09
maddlereverything someone is used to get from a commercial product...18:10
maddlerbut the they hit the problems of an opensource project...18:10
mgedminmaybe that's because I haven't used commercial software products for many years18:10
maddlermgedmin: hehehehe... same here...18:10
timelessin some or many ways 770/n800 are the worst of both open and closed source worlds18:10
keesjthe User related website has a good experiance, I don't remeber the name18:10
mgedminstill, look at ubuntu18:10
mgedminthe quality they've achieved is spectacular for a desktop linux distro18:11
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timelessmgedmin: dunno, people regularly complain about kubuntu18:11
maddlerif I find something I don't like, or I can't find something I need, I simply try to fix that...18:11
mgedminthat's just a way of expressing their love :)18:11
timelessi know people who complain about problems getting networking to work18:11
maddlertimeless: I'm using both Ubuntu and Kubuntu, and I'm fine...18:12
mgedminI suppose if your hardware is supported, you're happy18:12
timelessmaddler: why would you use both?18:12
mgedminif not, you're in hell18:12
timelessin this case, his hardware (laptop) worked fine at home18:12
keesjI must say that ubuntu is pretty user friendly, perhaps that is why I don't like is as desktop os18:12
timelessbut had issues w/ wifi at work18:12
mgedminI had some fun with ATI video... crashes twice a week for half a year18:12
maddlertimeless: because I use Ubuntu Server on some systems and Kubuntu on my desktops18:12
maddlermgedmin: that's ATI's fault :)18:13
maddlernot Ubuntu or Linux :D18:13
timelessmaddler: err18:13
timelessit's ubuntu's fault18:13
mgedminthat's exactly who I blame :)18:13
timelessthey're one stop shopping18:13
timeless"the buck stops here"18:13
timelessubuntu is free to blame ati if they like18:13
timelessbut as a user, you get to blame ubuntu18:13
mgedmintimeless: ubuntu offered me a full refund of $0, but I declined18:14
timelessi bet they didn't refund your time18:14
* timeless frowns18:14
timelesspeople who think their time is worth nothing ...18:14
maddleryes, but you also have to realize that Ubuntu can't do miracles if producers are not releasing free drivers...18:14
* timeless shrugs18:14
timeless"not my problem"18:14
timelessas a user, i don't care what the excuse is18:14
timelessi don't want to hear it18:14
maddlerok, just keep complaining then...18:15
maddlerwhat else could I say?18:15
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timelesswell, there's fuse18:15
maddlerif you don't wanna hear reasons...18:15
timelessconceptually you could emulate things (although if you send the video card into a bad, state, you're hosed)18:15
mgedmintimeless is right, reasons aren't important when you're in a hurry to get something done and cannot18:16
timelessalternatively, you can offer a more basic safe driver18:16
timelessalthough iirc ubuntu isn't shipping the nvidia driver18:16
mgedminI don't want to be a car's mechanic, I want to just sit and drive18:16
mgedminwhich is why I get to blame Nokia for all the Opera crashes18:16
mgedminFIX THEM RIGHT NOW!!! :)18:16
maddlermgedmin: that's true but I mean you can't always complain with $YOUR_DISTRO_HERE if a producer is not releasing/support {good|free} drivers...18:17
maddler_of course_ is different when you buy a device like N800...18:17
mgedminmaddler: I can complain, but the producer can say "sorry we cannot do anything about it"18:17
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mgedminerr s/producer/distro/18:17
timelessmgedmin: but seriously18:18
maddlermgedmin: yep, but then who's failing?18:18
timelessmake a folder "core-dumps" on your external mmc18:18
mgedminI have one18:18
mgedminit used to fill all the free space on my mmc :)18:19
maddlerthat would be nice if every producer was releasing specs and free drivers, but they aren't...18:19
timelessmgedmin: i made sure my mmc was 512m when i started and upgraded to 1g a while ago18:19
maddlerand I can't complain with Ubuntu, Debian, Slackware, $WHATEVER about that...18:19
timelessmaddler: so, as mgedmin realized18:19
timelessif your software crashes, you should have a way to get a crash report from the user18:20
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timelessand if you are shipping someone else's software, you should have a way to get the crash report to the upstream vendor18:20
maddlertimeless: that would be right, of course...18:20
mgedminI've a 4gb sd card today18:20
mgedminhey, it's in the internal slot, which means /media/mmc2, which means my kernel is looking at /media/mmc1 and not finding core-dumps there18:20
* mgedmin mkdirs18:20
maddlertimeless: yes... that was what I was trying to say... when I was talking about the dual nature of 770/N80018:21
maddlerthe point is that Nokia should find a way to make commercial and open source souls work together...18:21
maddlerotherwise end-users will keep complaining...18:22
maddlerabout open source problems...18:22
maddlerI can accept them if I freely choose to use an opensource program...18:22
maddlerthings change if I buy a commercial product (which is different from talking about a linux distro)18:23
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maddlerif I (Jon Doe, end user) buy a commercial product I simply want it to work18:23
maddlerand here I agree with what you were saying...18:24
maddlerbut only if we are talking about a commercial product, not about distros...18:24
maddlerdoh... I killed everyone?! :)18:26
keesjIf I buy software I have no expectations whatsoever.18:27
maddlerkeesj: :)18:30
maddlerI;m not buying commercial software since years...18:30
maddlerexcept a couple apps for my phones18:30
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disqhey all19:20
keesjmaddler: it is not my fault but my bosses hava paided for a few windows licences I never used19:20
keesjHi disq19:20
disqi got more to rant, about the mpm functionality lackage19:20
disqusing the n800 as a pmp is so much harder because there's no cover, you have to bring the device on from soft poweroff mode just to adjust volume etc19:20
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disqwith the 770 you used to slide the cover just enough so it would unlock the keys, adjust volume, slide it back19:21
keesjdisq: yes , use a wiiremote it sounds like the best thing for you19:21
disqwiiremote is too big19:22
ptmanIn case someone is interested, there now exists a packaged ssh-askpass implementation for maemo19:22
disqi'm thinking something like, port/compile/use mpd if it can be done, then play with the mpc client19:22
ptmandeb mistral user19:22
disqmake a full screen mode that requires specific tap sequence to unlock, the volume buttons would always remain unlocked, etc19:23
maddlerkeesj: hehehe... I think mine is actually paying for a fre thousand licenses... :)19:24
keesjptman: it looks like your university building can be used as sun oven :p19:25
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ptmannot quite, it's a amphitheater =)19:26
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keesjis there snow there right now?19:26
ptmannot that much, but some19:26
ptmanthere's more ice, it's quite slippery19:27
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maddler+18 here :D19:30
keesj30+ here :(19:30
maddlerwhere the hell are you?19:40
* timeless would point to weatherchannel.com19:44
* timeless wonders if people are measuring in F or C19:45
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idandoes anybody know what bootreason "por" means?19:45
idanmy 770 occasionally boots at random times (no alarms or anything set) and this is the only clue I have so far19:46
timelessgoogle didn't work?19:46
idantimeless: I found one unresolved posting on itt forums19:46
idanwith the same question :(19:46
timelessidan: please hold19:47
idantried varying combinations of keywords: nokia maemo 770 bootreason por19:47
timelessthere's a thing around that explains them19:47
timelessi'd assume it measn you ran out of power19:47
timelessthe reasons are POR, SW_RST, 32WD_TO and bad_shutdown19:48
sp3000 is one such thing, with a table that's missing that value19:48
timelessisn't in my list19:48
timelessgot the list19:48
timelessstart-up reason was power key19:49
idanyeah, that's when I turn it on normally19:49
timelessstart-up reason was charger19:49
timelessstart-up reason was rtc_alarm19:49
timelessstart-up reason was reset (USELESS)19:49
timelessstart-up reason was reset19:49
timelessstart-up reason was OMAP wd timeout19:49
idannot seeing any of the other ones :(19:50
idanjust pwr_key when I turn it on normally19:50
idanand por when it is on when I don't expect it should be19:50
zuhtimeless: Maybe you should output those to the wiki instead of this channel ;)19:50
timelesszuh: i hate wikis19:50
sp3000idan, does /var/lib/dsme/stats/por have anything19:50
sp3000timeless: wikis feed into google19:50
timelessanyway, /var/lib/dsme/stats/por is the file to read19:50
idansp3000: uh, one minute19:50
timelesssp3000: not well, see other network here someone explained the wiki search worked better19:50
sp3000then again, this cahnnel feeds into google19:51
timelessyes, it does :)19:51
sp3000but the context per document is kinda large (1 day)19:51
idanhooray! my 770 is on, which is bad, but it's good, because I don't have to bash my head trying to reproduce the issue :)19:51
idanlooking now19:51
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timelesssp3000: it could be worse, they could be searching what i'm searching19:53
idansp3000: gah, unfortunately this time bootreason is pwr_key, will try to get it to act badly again19:54
idan/var/lib/dsme/stats/por == 10 but I suppose that is a normal value19:54
sp3000the dsme stats files don't go away though19:54
timelessit's a counter19:54
timelessever increasing19:54
* sp3000 doesn't have that file, presumably because bootreason has never been por since last flash19:55
timelesswell, in theory it could probably overflow19:55
idanah, see, my nokia did it again19:55
timelessbut i don't think you'll live long enough for that19:55
idanI shut down and it boots up right away19:55
idanlet's see bootreason19:55
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idansp3000: but what does the por thing mean anyways?19:56
timelessidan: we really don't know19:56
idantimeless: :) ah well19:56
idanwell -- if it's not known what it *means*19:56
idanat least I know it's the reason for 10 bad boots19:57
idanyeah, now I have bootreason: por19:57
idanand stats shows por == 1119:58
timelessok, lemme try again19:59
idanI"m going to create a bugzilla account -- is there any other information you think would be useful to include in the ticket?19:59
timelessthis is a more painful version19:59
idanI have the issue "replicated" and that's not an always kinda thing19:59
timelessdefinitely include steps to reproduce19:59
idansteps: sometimes it just turns on, unbeknownst to me20:00
idansometimes, when shutting down, it boots right away20:00
* timeless frowns20:01
timelesswhere does /proc live normally anyway?20:01
suihkulokki*drum rolls*20:02
suihkulokki/proc !20:02
timelesssp3000: kernel is not included in swift/release20:03
timelessdo i need to browse it elsewhere? :(20:03
timelessoh, heh20:03
timelesskernel isn't a package!20:03
lle2I've had the reboot after trying to shutdown too20:04
lle2happens when the battery is empty20:04
lle2also if I power off through the "shutdown menu" it reboots20:05
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lle2if I simply hold the power button until it shuts down it doesn't reboot20:05
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lle2removing the battery is the best way to shut it down, has never rebooted on me20:06
maddlerlle2: you could also wait until the battery is completely depleted... it will shutdown and no reboot :)20:11
lle2maddler: yes, I've considered that too, but I dislike the hey-my-battery-is-almost-dead jingle20:14
* zuh dislikes the fact that there is no closer-to-hw power button20:15
timelessremoving the battery is fairly reliable20:15
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zuhIt's annoying to rip off the battery when you test some boot thing and it doesn't result in a fully working system...20:16
maddlerlle2: :)20:17
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lle2zuh: you can hold the battery half inserted20:19
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maddlerlle2: what about a switch on the battery? :)20:28
zuhlle2: Or solder a switch there myself, but that's hardly my point :)20:32
lle2I've been trying to developer a cool slap-the-tablet move that would pop out the battery, flip it around in the air and land it back in to the slot20:34
lle2so far no success20:34
zuhI also could disasseble the thing, reassemble to a different casing and write the software from scratch but it'd take a bit more time than I'm willing to spend on the "hardware reset" problem... ;)20:35
lle2zuh: while you're re-assembling it, please put in some decent battery charging circuit, you might get usb charging as a bonus + the device might be able to power itself without a battery, thanks.20:38
lle2it's amazing how much work has gone into implementing a completely screwed up power subsystem :]20:43
suihkulokkimm.. let me guess, created in oulu?20:44
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lle2suihkulokki: no idea :) but it's the same in all the nokia hw, so I guess it's in some template somewhere20:46
lle2suihkulokki: and we thought copy&paste sw development was bad ;P20:47
disqheh i had to install 17 debs just to get maemo-blog compile, but it still won't work. probably incompatible with bora or something20:53
dolfunlinux magazine germany has a big article on the N800 (as they must) :)20:54
keesjis it in the shops already?21:01
mgedminthe magazine, or N800?21:01
mgedminN800 was in the shops two days before it was released, iirc21:02
keesjthe mag :) I have a n800 right here :p21:02
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dolfun03/07 Linux Magagin - picked up at Aral filling station21:05
dolfuni nagged the local filling station every week when they dropped linux magazin and they have picked it up again :)21:06
dolfunafk reading21:06
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cosmo_hello.. anyone managed to install scratchbox and maemo toolchain on a 64 bit system?21:32
keesjcosmo_: I think it has been done before , but not by me , try searching the irc logs21:33
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cosmo_i found 64 bit debs for scratchbox, but no toolchain21:38
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sbaturziomaddler: Ciao. still at home? it's saturday night! ;-)23:24
obiisn't it sunday night in italy, too? :-)23:26
sbaturzioobi: well...depends if you are still awake from saturday night ;-)23:26
sbaturzioboys....I'm drunk....father-in-law give us a huge quantity of alcoholics23:27
maddlersbaturzio: isn't it sunday?!23:28
maddlersbaturzio: hehehehe... we wen't to a nice osteria near Campo de' Fiori today...23:28
maddlerGREAT food man! :D23:28
sbaturziomaddler: Venice?23:28
maddlerRome :)23:29
sbaturziomaddler: I've not seen the "de'"23:29
sbaturzioI'm sure there is a "Campo dei fiori" in Venice too23:29
maddlersbaturzio: I think you just saw double :D23:29
maddlersbaturzio: dunno... maybe...23:29
maddlerbut Roma's one is TM! :D23:30
maddlerother are copies :D23:30
sbaturziomaddler: not "Campo" but "Campiello" ;-)23:31
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maddlersbaturzio: see... "campiello" it has to be something small! :D23:54
sbaturziomaddler: venice there are "campielli" everywhere. Most of them are big more or less as a car ;-)23:55
sbaturzioand I think the food is not the same as in Rome23:55
sbaturzioespecially for the "porchetta" :-923:56
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