IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-02-14

Michael	ok me again	00:00
Michael	can you install the os from a 770 on a 800	00:00
c0ffee	install? yes :)	00:01
Michael	will it work though?	00:01
c0ffee	no	00:01
Michael	lol	00:01
Michael	so i can put the os on it but i cant use it right?	00:01
jobi	http://people.via.ecp.fr/~jobi/weather-applet.png	00:02
c0ffee	the hardware is just different	00:03
Michael	ok	00:03
c0ffee	in contrast to a normal linux, the itos doesn't come with a whole bunch of drivers but just those required for the specific device	00:03
tko	jobi, anyway, I was thinking you could possibly use render extension to paint tinted background for the applet without needing to move pixels back and forth	00:03
garrett	jobi: nifty!	00:04
Michael	right... but the hardware on the 800 is that much different? that it wouldn't work at all?	00:04
garrett	isnt't that a bit large though?	00:04
jobi	tko: yes i think so too	00:04
jobi	garrett: yes	00:05
tigert	jobi: actually that looks nice too in a way	00:05
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tigert	maybe it should be ~1/4 off the left top	00:05
tigert	and be larger	00:05
tigert	(the weather icon)	00:05
tigert	but do it like I mockupped first	00:05
tigert	but its worth thinking	00:06
roope	oo. :) it's transparent.	00:06
tigert	http://tigert.1g.fi/blog-files/jobi/trans-applet-blue2.png	00:06
tigert	like this	00:06
tigert	garrett: load it in the device	00:07
tigert	garrett: on your big screen it looks always too big	00:07
tko	hmm.. http://www.gdesklets.org/projects/51/thumbs/screen.jpg :)	00:07
tigert	one tends to design too small UI elements	00:07
garrett	yeah, I agree about that -- but it seems too large percentage wise	00:07
tigert	tko: yea, but mine looks way better	00:07
* tigert ducks :)		00:07
garrett	the applets on my device are too large, for instance	00:07
tigert	garrett: yeah	00:07
garrett	(:	00:07
tigert	its huge	00:07
tigert	but its a demo	00:07
tigert	got to make a smaller variant	00:07
tigert	now if this was svg and completely scalable... ;)	00:08
tko	tigert, of course :)	00:08
jobi	http://people.via.ecp.fr/~jobi/weather-and-clock.png	00:08
tigert	it would wrok though	00:08
tigert	as one could just render it to bitmap once	00:08
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tigert	jobi: nice	00:08
jobi	clock looks a bit tiny in comparison	00:08
tigert	hehe	00:08
tigert	make a bigger clock :)	00:09
garrett	yeah, the weather dwarfs the clock	00:09
tigert	I'll make you a smaller one	00:09
tigert	one sec	00:09
roope	you could combine them. :)	00:09
roope	So tha6t the clock face is the blog in the weather thing. ;)	00:09
roope	¨the blob.	00:09
roope	Anyways I think the clock is quite ok size in the actual device.	00:10
roope	That weather is a bit big now. :)	00:10
jobi	clock was made with bora API, wonder if we could get it released for N800 or even opened	00:10
jobi	it may be violating Ãpatents though, like "showing the time with 2 hands, a short and a long one"	00:11
tigert	http://tigert.1g.fi/blog-files/jobi/trans-applet-blue3.png	00:13
wumpus	hehe	00:13
tigert	jobi: haha	00:13
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roope	would the top right corner ... you can put something there.	00:13
roope	You could put the sun or clouds shining out of that corner. :)	00:14
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roope	like when kids draw a sun on paper corner.	00:14
tigert	jobi: http://tigert.1g.fi/blog-files/jobi/weather-kludget-bg-small.png	00:14
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jobi	i can try to make the background adapt to the size of the label tomorrow	00:14
Mike-disconnecte	sorry got disconnected	00:14
tigert	jobi: can you do so that you tile the bg to the width of the weathericon + text?	00:15
tigert	right	00:15
jobi	off to bed for now, thanks tigert for the graphics	00:15
jobi	tigert: yes	00:15
tigert	[ \|__\| ]	00:15
tigert	like this	00:15
tigert	I can cut it up for you but it should be easy to get it from the pic too	00:15
tigert	just take enough of the ends so the gradient works	00:15
tigert	the center part should be tileable	00:15
tigert	night from here too :)	00:15
tko	I hate you guys. I need to get a transfer to the eye candy team too :)	00:16
jobi	tko: you can make a backgroundable GtkTreeView ;)	00:16
* tko kicks jobi		00:16
tigert	tko: we all are the eye candy team	00:16
tigert	tko: a lot to do in various places	00:17
roope	Some smooth animations to the treeview focus.	00:17
tko	from what I can tell some guys are doing nothing but, while we're mostly trying to get rid of glitches here and there :-/	00:17
tigert	o/~ Unsuck my GTK+, I can't take it anymore... o/~	00:17
garrett	heh	00:17
garrett	tigert: seriously	00:18
garrett	I've had to feel the pain of GTK+ theme suckage lately here too	00:18
tigert	gtk needs to adapt to 2000's	00:18
tigert	its too boxy and all animations etc are a royal pain in the ass	00:18
axique	tko after some minor problems it works perfect now. Thanks again	00:20
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Jaffa	lle2: hey, I'm about to head off to bed, but shout on the mailing list - sb2 stuff sounds interesting but I've made no attempt to try it at all	00:21
tigert	okay. good night!	00:21
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Guardian	anyone familiar with the pixmap/pixbuf engine ?	00:23
Guardian	is it possible to paint a widget with a sub region of a whole png file ? the motivation is to pack all pngs into a single big file	00:24
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roope	http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/12/palm-treo-750-running-windows-mobile-6/ ms isn't too hot on eyecandy. :)	00:25
roope	(if that is seriously their latest and greatest mobile phone ui)	00:26
littlefae	Heya	00:26
littlefae	Where's the old maemo.org wishlist gone? :/	00:26
maddler	roope: that's very BAD!	00:27
roope	Well, it's not bad, but it looks exactly like it has looked for years now.	00:28
maddler	seeing WM running on a palm!	00:28
roope	Oh, that. :D	00:28
maddler	roope: yep!	00:28
maddler	palm is long gone...	00:28
* littlefae nods.		00:28
maddler	they are announcing a "new OS version" since I think 3 years or so...	00:28
maddler	I mean PalmOS	00:28
maddler	in the meantime PalmOS 5 is almost what it was 10 yrs ago...	00:29
tko	http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3489/outsidecj0.jpg	00:29
maddler	tko: LOL!	00:29
maddler	I've always avoided buying WM handelds...	00:30
maddler	and got stuck with Palm...	00:30
maddler	until 770 release! ;)	00:30
maddler	and that really changed my life! :D	00:30
Mike-disconnecte	yeah but with WM its easier to use	00:30
littlefae	No-one knows then? :p	00:30
Mike-disconnecte	the 800 is a pain in the ass to install anything	00:31
maddler	Mike-disconnecte: ultil when you don't start having problems...	00:31
littlefae	Or, do I need to be flagged as 'voiced' before I can be even heard? :/ I never can tell in IRC	00:31
maddler	Mike-disconnecte: maybe... but being a long time linux user... ;)	00:31
c0ffee	littlefae, no	00:31
c0ffee	littlefae, we hear you	00:31
maddler	I feel SO comfortable with package manager...	00:31
Mike-disconnecte	yeah i guess	00:31
maddler	littlefae: no... I can't read you...	00:31
Mike-disconnecte	for me who is a long time windows user and a linux user for only 2 weeks	00:31
Mike-disconnecte	it makes it harder	00:32
littlefae	Oh, just being ignored? :p Thanks, I'll remember not to be so polite in future to you guys then..	00:32
maddler	could you pleas try hitting ALT+F4 or CTRL+W?	00:32
maddler	littlefae: man... calm down...	00:32
maddler	just give us the time to notice your question...	00:32
maddler	it's almost midnight... and maybe we are not to... hmmm... smart...	00:33
Jaffa	Mike-disconnecte: having (potentially) all the available software accessible through one interface sure should be confusing if your experience is limited to the "wonderful" world of Windows package management.	00:33
littlefae	I'm calm, just intolerant of rude, ignorant people. And noticing a question that has since scrolled off the screen seems difficult.	00:33
maddler	littlefae: go to wiki tab...	00:33
Mike-disconnecte	yeah...windows does make it so much easier	00:33
Jaffa	littlefae: it'd also help if you were a) more explicit; b) confirmed it wasn't where it always was.	00:33
maddler	littlefae: I don't feel rude nor intollerant...	00:33
maddler	if no one answered your question maybe simply no one noticed it...	00:34
maddler	littlefae: not because ignoring you...	00:34
c0ffee	tko, http://getafirstlife.com/	00:34
maddler	littlefae: all of us are here to have fun... and to talk with other maemo users...	00:34
littlefae	Jaffa: Til the redesign from what it was, to what it is, I found the Wishlist through the Applications tab, along with WIP and App catalog 2006.	00:34
Jaffa	littlefae: For example, I just typed http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationCatalog2006Wishlist into my browser and it worked straight off. You're the one now being rude because people don't act like a search engine.	00:34
c0ffee	ah, flame time [tm] :)	00:35
littlefae	I did a search on the site, it came up with garbage	00:35
c0ffee	and i nearly went off to bed	00:35
Jaffa	littlefae: "what it was to what it is"?	00:35
c0ffee	the wishlist is even linked from the frontpage!	00:35
littlefae	Yeah, used to be easy to find stuff, now its more like sourceforge.net	00:35
Jaffa	littlefae: Maemo.org and maemo.org/maemowiki/ both look the same to me.	00:35
maddler	Jaffa: something like "caught somewhere in time" :)	00:35
Jaffa	littlefae: eh? can you give URLs, it's going to be a lot clearer	00:36
Jaffa	c0ffee: I'm ill, I've got a doctor's note giving me permission ;-)	00:36
c0ffee	Jaffa, if you have an old account, then the wiki looks like buargh once you're logged in	00:36
* maddler thinks that people keep complaining if they don't find readymade recipes...		00:36
littlefae	I just remember maemo being a slow to load list of apps, at one point, now its all divided into sections with per-port pages. Useful I guess, but missing the links I used to use. Thankfully the old page is still listed as a link in my bookmarks. :D	00:37
c0ffee	readymade recipes that have all information in the first two paragraphs	00:37
maddler	littlefae: as I said already go to "WIKI" tab...	00:37
c0ffee	because nobody reads more :)	00:37
littlefae	I found it now, thanks. :)	00:37
maddler	littlefae: and from there you can go to applications and wish list... but... WAIT!	00:37
littlefae	Jaffa gave me the link. :)	00:37
maddler	littlefae: aren't you reading my answers?!	00:37
maddler	littlefae: damn... that's rude!	00:38
maddler	:)	00:38
littlefae	I read it, unlike you, and acknowledged, unlike you, well, until I complained.	00:38
maddler	oooh... I see...	00:38
Jaffa	littlefae: IRC is not a support channel.	00:38
dolfun	main contrib non-free illegal	00:38
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Jaffa	Mike-disconnecte: hell, I hope you're joking about Windows' package management. Where's the dependency tracking? Where's the list of all the packages which can be installed? Where's the ability to upgrade my installed apps to their latest versions?	00:39
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maddler	Jaffa: you can even install apps on WM?! :O	00:40
maddler	ghghghgh	00:40
Jaffa	littlefae: No-one answered you because 1) people were involved in more interesting discussions; 2) it was a foolish question which searching on maemo.org or - always a first stop - Google could've answered more quickly.	00:40
Jaffa	maddler: I assume Mike-disconnecte meant XP/Vista ;-)	00:40
Jaffa	littlefae: e.g. http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo+wishlist	00:41
Jaffa	Top result :-)	00:41
maddler	Jaffa: oh... yes... it could be possible to install something...	00:41
c0ffee	i answered :(	00:41
c0ffee	it's rude not to credit my supportful answer	00:41
littlefae	I did three searches, through maemo.org, not google I'll admit, all I got were a list of posts people had made. I wouldn't have asked otherwise.	00:41
maddler	Jaffa: beside not being able to access it... :)	00:41
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littlefae	Not my fault if the sites built-in search can't find it, is it?	00:42
Jaffa	Not at all	00:42
littlefae	But you'd rather I go somewhere else to ask, when it fails?	00:43
Jaffa	Well, I always try Google before asking any question; but maybe that's just me.	00:44
Jaffa	And I'm sure no-one here doesn't want more contributors and conversationalists. But a confrontational "why won't people help me... bah" is just going to rub people up the wrong way.	00:44
littlefae	I always preferred to use a sites own search tool. Been my experience that google chucks up 5000 more answers, before the one I'm after, on the screen	00:44
maddler	as old Raymond says: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html	00:45
Jaffa	The wonders of precise searching, I think. Whatever I'm searching for, if Google knows the answer (which it doesn't for some of the esoteric AS/400 stuff I need to know) it's usually returned on the front page	00:45
littlefae	I didn't 'moan' about people not helping me, in fact I asked if I was being heard, because some channels, as I'm told, won't let you be heard til you are voiced. I'm something of an IRC simpleton, I have no idea what its features are. Now, I apologise if that sounded rude to you, I really am. But at the same time I would've thought people would be polite enough to acknowledge someone else, even if they don't care, or	00:47
Pio	littlefae, welcome to irc ;)	00:47
maddler	littlefae: ACK	00:47
littlefae	Let me guess, sending more than one line of text is wrong too? :/	00:47
maddler	littlefae: ACK	00:47
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Jaffa	littlefae: I got 7 lines and, for the record, I think "<littlefae> I'm calm, just intolerant of rude, ignorant people." is rude - but I apologise if I'm being over-sensitive.	00:48
Com1	just got my N800. It's great	00:48
Jaffa	Com1 : cool. Has it randomly rebooted yet? :)	00:48
Com1	i heard about that.	00:49
Com1	not yet	00:49
Jaffa	Ah well, hopefully the fix'll be out before it does.	00:49
littlefae	My apologies. I was brought up to think ignorance is rude.	00:49
maddler	Com1: welcome home! :D	00:50
Com1	I did have problems with the Calibration utility not working OOB	00:50
Com1	i had to reflash it OOB	00:50
Com1	not a good start...but	00:50
Com1	so far...so good after that	00:50
maddler	Jaffa: mine only rebooted once or twice since when I have it...	00:50
Jaffa	littlefae: IRC is a chaotic medium made of many simulataneous conversations. People will only get involved with one if they're bored, they're interested or it's quiet. Taking it personally when you ask an uninteresting question at a busy time is just going to make you unhappy most of the time.	00:51
Jaffa	maddler: mine seemed to go through a phase: it had a day of a number of reboots, but has seemed much better since.	00:51
maddler	Jaffa: to much coffee?	00:51
Jaffa	maddler: There's such a thing?	00:51
maddler	apt-get install toomuchcaffeine	00:52
Com1	HEY EVERYONE! LOTS of Info here! #Maeomo LOGS! ----> http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/index.html	00:52
littlefae	Doesn't matter, seems like I should probably just go, before I get anyone elses backs up. :/	00:52
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maddler	will cause frequent reboots!	00:52
maddler	:D	00:52
maddler	Com1: :)	00:52
maddler	btw... in the meantime just undestood what caused kismet_server premature death... :)	00:52
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maddler	it was cause my wlan auto connect...	00:53
maddler	I was too focused on kismet... and never considered that...	00:53
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* Jaffa beds		01:00
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tigert	wow, daily source code mentios N800	01:02
tigert	mentions	01:02
maddler	Jaffa: bye! :D	01:03
maddler	tigert: lier! you said you were goint to bed too! :D	01:03
Veggen	tigert: will your theme with the cache actually make things go faster?	01:03
Com1	Liar	01:05
Com1	my N800 is virgin....no new apps	01:06
Com1	WSOD looms	01:06
maddler	Com1: that's NO good... :(	01:06
Tak	aww, I missed the flamewar	01:06
Com1	my IRIVER PMP-120 is *nix based......no hacked apps ever came out for that	01:07
maddler	Tak: I can start trolling if it can help...	01:07
Veggen	WSOD? on N800?	01:07
Com1	yeah. heard about it	01:07
maddler	Com1: it was the same on other Linux based devices... 770/N800 are somehow different...	01:07
Com1	zophar.net will show you	01:08
maddler	being released from Nokia I think gave users a different feeling...	01:08
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maddler	and being able to get so many informations on how to "hack" helped a lot as well...	01:08
maddler	Com1: what's zophar?	01:09
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Com1	losts of Emulators for all kinds of devices..even run an emulator on Calculators	01:10
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maddler	Com1: nice... nice..	01:12
Mike-disconnecte	WSOD???	01:14
tigert	maddler: I am in bed :)	01:14
maddler	tigert: oh... sorry then... :)	01:14
maddler	Mike-disconnecte: Wite Screen Of Death	01:18
maddler	ok... time to hit the bed here...	01:19
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Com1	kill app skype/voip	01:24
Com1	as long as you have free wifi	01:24
Com1	ok..........uhmmm	01:29
Com1	not used to this	01:29
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Com1	only one op here. ChanServ	01:29
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Com1	ok. is ssh working on n800	01:44
Com1	ssh client	01:44
Com1	I would love to try the "Boot from MMC/SD hack"	01:45
Com1	seems pretty complicated	01:45
Com1	wish N800 had Midi	01:47
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Com1	<Sulis> is the n800 better than the sony mylo? i don't even know if the mylo is released yet...	01:49
Com1	mylo? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA	01:49
Com1	mylo is a piece of crap	01:49
Com1	in my opinion N800 is better than Sony's UXP	01:50
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matt_c	does anyone know off the top where maemo stores its POI db?	01:55
sp3000	kulve: guess what, osso_mime_open_file(...); sleep(5);	01:56
matt_c	ahh got it (~/MyDocs/.documents/poi.db)	01:56
* sp3000 is amused		01:56
sp3000	that would probably make sense if I knew some dbus	01:57
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myren	sony's uxp's run real operating systems, iirc	02:11
sp3000	hrm, who do I bug to get http://maemo.org/lxr/source/dbus/ fixed	02:21
sp3000	unpacked source browses better	02:21
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ocnarfid8	N800 NYC Launch Party was fun.	04:41
ocnarfid8	Will post pictures shortly.	04:41
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ocnarfid8	N800 Launch Party (in NYC): http://www.flickr.com/photos/nycjournal/sets/72157594534903970/	06:25
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myren	launch some to Denver	07:18
myren	we're fucking dry	07:18
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Markov	hey. how do i select stuff in the browser?	08:18
roope	tap, tap and drag.	08:20
roope	so like tap+release+tap same position+drag.	08:20
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Markov	okay.let me try that	08:21
roope	It's a "bit" tricky at first.	08:23
Markov	that's kind of hard	08:24
Markov	yeah	08:24
roope	It was thought to be a rare use case. And we didn't want modes to the browser.	08:26
tigert	roope, btw. i managed to move a flickr picture note with the same method. :)	08:28
tigert	once. ;)	08:29
inz	;)	08:32
Markov	is there a way to bring up the thumb pad without hitting the field with your finger?	08:36
Markov	are these answers in a manual or some	08:37
Markov	thing?	08:37
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Markov	wa	08:44
Markov	what's frestonfire?	08:44
tigert	markov, there is a setting	08:49
tigert	in keyboard prefs	08:49
cambba	is there sshfs package for n800? I know one exists for 770, but instructions for n800 are little bit different (needs compiling with some patch)	08:49
tigert	in the tab that is not visible by default	08:50
Tak\|770	it's like a gpl guitar hero that you play with kb	08:50
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tigert	markov, "open with rocker key" or smthg	08:50
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sxpert	I want that :D http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/12/more-multitouch-from-jeff-han/	08:52
Markov	thanks tigert!	08:55
tigert	then it pops up with the middle key	09:05
bergie	Some maemo apps have a "breadcrumb trail". Is there a widget for using it in your own apps?	09:14
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tko	bergie, not a common one yet.. MDK is going to be looking into 'widgetising' the ones we have to hildon-1 :)	09:17
bergie	ok	09:17
tigert	tko: maybe those could be put in sardine into a libunstablecrap ?	09:18
tigert	so that people in the community could build and use them (when possible) in current devices too?	09:18
* tigert wonders how much overhead that would mean		09:19
tko	tigert, maybe. good idea, need to think about it	09:19
tigert	this way we could collaborate more with the community, and people wouldnt have to make this on/off decision about sardine	09:19
tigert	because it doesnt make much sense to depend on sardine for an end user app right now	09:20
tigert	yet if those widgets were available as "backported unstable crap" for bora, that would be useful	09:20
tigert	since people could start using them and we'd get feedback	09:20
tigert	bergie: what do you have in mind btw?	09:20
tigert	did you see Adam Curry mentioned N800 and GPS in his podcast?	09:21
tko	heck, I could even put my carousel thingamagic there.. currently the only copy is on my laptop	09:21
bergie	tigert: I'm trying to help the guy working on https://garage.maemo.org/projects/roadwarrior with the UI stuff	09:22
tigert	ok	09:22
* tko goes to try to catch a bus		09:23
tigert	you should irc while in the bus	09:24
tigert	to save time :)	09:24
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Markov	is there an easier way to set the alarm than going through the clock and its menus?	09:34
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zbenjamin	hello @ all	10:17
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MDK	tko: I've got some content for the lib unstable crap too	10:19
MDK	ie. the tag cloud widget	10:19
inz	uu, gtk2 goes web2	10:21
tigert	:)	10:25
tigert	GTcKr.com (BETA)	10:25
* tigert ducks		10:25
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bergie	wow, plankton really changes the feel of the N800	10:41
tigert	yep	10:44
tigert	I am still not happy how the "home" view looks though	10:44
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tigert	the toolbar looks weird without the app window	10:44
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tigert	tko?	10:45
cesman	what is plankton?	10:46
cesman	got a link to a screenshot?	10:47
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kulve	cesman: http://www.tigert.com/archives/2007/01/30/new-maemo-development-theme/	10:48
bergie	yesterday I was sitting in tram coming home from the center... the tram stopped at red lights at the corner of Sokos department store, my N800 automatically connected to the nearby "lasipalatsi" WiFi and Plazes positioned me there. Exactly as it should work ;-)	10:48
cesman	kulve: thanks for the link	10:50
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pyhimys	bergie: I couldn't get the plazes to work.	10:58
bergie	pyhimys: any errors?	10:59
pyhimys	bergie: no, it just wouldn't start	10:59
pyhimys	bergie: does it have logfile somewhere?	11:00
bergie	nope, but if you run it from command line you get a lot more info	11:01
pyhimys	bergie: hey, it's updated	11:01
pyhimys	now, it asks for password	11:01
bergie	good :-)	11:01
pyhimys	we're getting somewhere	11:01
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bergie	the packaged version of maemoplazer_watcher (the process that you can leave open that automatically plazes you when you have new WiFi connection) doesn't work because of a missing symlink	11:02
bergie	but you can start it by clicking the icon in toolbar yourself	11:02
bergie	s/toolbar/menu	11:02
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AD-N770	good morning	11:20
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cybergyp1y	hi guys , how do i install scummvm on my n800 , when i try it reports its for os2006 / 770? not 800 , yet this guy ( http://www.hanno.de/blog/2007/02/09/killer-app-scummvm/ ) seems to have managed it	11:25
cybergyp1y	can i install 770 apps on my n800 ?	11:26
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timely	usually they'll work	11:26
cybergyp1y	ok , thanks timely	11:26
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Piotras	hi	11:35
Piotras	anyone knows where can I find libxslt package suitable for maemo2.2 ?	11:35
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melmoth	oh oh, my n800 rebooted on its own, and is stuck on the nokia logo....	12:08
melmoth	same if i re re boot after removing the battery	12:09
melmoth	any idea ?	12:09
timely	be patient	12:09
melmoth	huhu	12:09
melmoth	it seems it reboot again after a while	12:09
timely	usually when it pauses, it's doing garbage collection on your flash file system	12:09
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timely	but if it reboots after a while, yes remove the battery	12:09
melmoth	already done	12:09
timely	there's a hardware enforced timeout to avoid problems	12:09
timely	if something doesn't say "i'm alive, making progress, etc..."	12:10
timely	then the device reboots	12:10
melmoth	well, that s what seems to happens, as it keeps rebooting.	12:10
melmoth	I was doing some sort of heavy cpu thingy before all of this happens (creating an clucene indexe)	12:11
zuh	I think filling the flash totally can end up in a boot loop	12:11
timely	yes	12:12
timely	"don't do that [as root]"	12:12
melmoth	oh	12:12
timely	but most people don't do that	12:12
melmoth	well	12:12
melmoth	i was root when performing the stuff	12:12
timely	as far as everyone i've spoken to knows, you need to be root to cause that problem	12:12
melmoth	because i had to write in /usr/share ...seems this is what happens...	12:12
timely	well, erm, um...	12:12
melmoth	reflash ?	12:12
timely	yes. and next time: "don't do that"	12:13
* melmoth whistle		12:13
melmoth	thanks for the info anyway	12:13
timely	if you must, write things as a non root user to the wrong place	12:13
timely	become root and move them (same volume)	12:13
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X-Fade	Hmm this new multitouch demo is even sweeter ;) http://www.macrumors.com/2007/02/12/more-multitouch-from-jeff-han/	12:21
melmoth	any idea if i shall use Developer Root Filesystem for maemo 3.0 or if there is an another rootfs ?	12:21
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X-Fade	If we had that then there wasn't a problem with scrolling and selecting ;)	12:22
timely	you should flash your device w/ the latest os flash from nokia	12:23
timely	unless you want a less than useful or confused device, or know what you're doing, in which case you shouldn't be asking :)	12:23
melmoth	i m just wondering if they are several version of it , the one i m downloading is called Maemo_Dev_Platform_v3.0_armel-rootfs.jffs2 , and i wonder if there is a 'non developper' or soemthing	12:24
timely	that sure doesn't look like something for your device	12:25
timely	at least not if you're an end user or want to be one ever :)	12:25
timely	http://maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800.php i believe is the right url	12:25
timely	i'm assuming you have an n800	12:25
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melmoth	well, it boots now with a 'sdk' instead of a 'nokia' logo :)	12:30
timely	clearly i don't think that'll be an improvement	12:30
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maddler	re	12:34
melmoth	yeop, it definitively looks like there should be another rootfs for the user..i have no opera anymore.	12:35
maddler	X-Fade: amazing...	12:36
X-Fade	Yep, that is really cool.	12:40
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X-Fade	Just for fun I tried to load the pepperpad powervr driver on N800. The result is not surprising ;)	13:04
X-Fade	[75323.939636] pvrdrv: version magic '2.6.13.4 preempt ARMv5 gcc-3.4' should be '2.6.18-omap1 mod_unload ARMv6 gcc-3.4'	13:04
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maddler	X-Fade: what powervr is supposed to do?	13:11
X-Fade	maddler: Give 3D acceleration on N800.	13:12
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zuh	Or graphics acceleration in general	13:16
maddler	oh... I see... sounds interesting...	13:17
maddler	:)	13:17
zuh	Sounds depressing, since there is no hints of getting it ever...	13:24
melmoth	GRumble. any idea what is the name of the root fs to flash the n800 with os7 ? I only find a developper one that does not comes with all the defaults apps	13:32
mgedmin	melmoth: the one you can download from http://maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800.php	13:33
mgedmin	RX-34_2007SE_2.2006.51-6_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin	13:33
melmoth	i try with this one as well, but it failed with:	13:34
mgedmin	(and technically it's more than just the root fs; it's a fiasco image that has the kernel, initfs and rootfs in it, if not more)	13:34
melmoth	Version of 'sw-release': <no version>	13:34
melmoth	Sending and flashing rootfs image (81597 kB)...	13:34
melmoth	100% (81597 of 81597 kB, avg. 135769 kB/s)	13:34
melmoth	Finishing flashing... Sending request 0x52 failed!	13:34
melmoth	Unable to get error strings: Connection timed out	13:34
melmoth	and then i can reboot with the sdk rootfs.	13:35
melmoth	i try several flasher binary as well (i m running ubuntu dapper):flasher.dapper , flasher-3.0 and the one compiled with static libs	13:35
melmoth	oh, and i did check the md5sum match MD5SUMS file	13:36
mgedmin	melmoth: how do you flash?	13:36
mgedmin	what's the command line?	13:36
mgedmin	it should be ./flasher-3.0 -f -F RX-34_2007SE_2* -R	13:37
melmoth	root@satellite:/home/melmoth/maemo# /home/melmoth/bin/flasher-3.0 -r RX-34_2007SE_2.2006.51-6_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R	13:38
melmoth	oh, i did not used -F	13:38
mgedmin	yes, use -F instead of -r	13:39
inz	If you use -r <blabla>.bin, your rootfs will look very funny ;)	13:39
mgedmin	because you've got a fiasco image and not a rootfs	13:39
melmoth	ok,makes sense. thanks	13:39
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kkito	hello :)	13:39
tigert	"The whole thing is a fiasco!!"	13:40
tigert	who came up with that name anyway? :)	13:40
melmoth	:)	13:41
melmoth	Looks like its booting like when i received it the first day :)	13:41
suihkulokki	tigert: same ones who came up with NOLO ?	13:42
tigert	:)	13:45
tigert	gack	13:45
tigert	I never realized that one :))	13:46
inz	"Emabarassed over fiasco" -- "NOLO fiascosta"	13:47
tigert	:)	13:48
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tigert	wooot	13:52
tigert	yay for ferenc	13:52
tigert	OS 2005 Edition version 3.2005.51-13 Bugfix release	13:52
X-Fade	What? Phase2?	13:52
X-Fade	Ah ;)	13:52
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tigert	OS 2005 Edition version 5.2006.13-7 The last release of OS 2005 Edition	13:52
tigert	OS 2006 Edition version 1.2006.26-8 The first release	13:52
tigert	OS 2006 Edition version 2.2006.39-14 Bugfix update #1	13:52
tigert	OS 2006 Edition version 3.2006.49-2 Bugfix update #2 - This is the latest one currently!	13:52
tigert	!!	13:53
tigert	my voice was heard!	13:53
tigert	:)	13:53
c0ffee	not only yours	13:53
tigert	yea	13:53
c0ffee	this is the current release	13:53
c0ffee	this is the last release	13:53
c0ffee	you should download this release, because it's the latest	13:53
c0ffee	download this release	13:53
* tigert looks in the N800 page		13:54
tigert	there's just one currently	13:54
tigert	which makes it a bit easier :)	13:54
tigert	c0ffee: but the above was what is there now in the 770 downloads	13:54
tigert	a lot better	13:55
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koen	tigert: any idea why we still don't get updates via the AM?	13:57
tigert	per package?	13:58
tigert	because our packaging sucks and it'd break everything I guess. we try to fix that part first	13:59
zuh	Yeah, probably it would cause even more problems currently (install a 3rd party app -> upgraded lib version -> either it fails to upgrade anything or the 3rd party app gets the boot)	14:00
zuh	Not a good scenario either way	14:01
zuh	Now the responsibility is entirely on the 3rd party side, but if Nokia supported upgrading they'd have to take responsibility for fixing problems with installed 3rd party packages too...	14:03
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tigert	yeah	14:04
tigert	it needs some thinking first	14:04
tigert	once we get sardine and those things smooth	14:05
tigert	then maybe	14:05
tigert	:)	14:05
tigert	its a good goal of course	14:05
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Magi	Hi. Can anyone tell how to configure Escape in xterm? Just adding "Esc" shortcut button doesn't help.	14:34
mgedmin	what's wrong with using the hardware Esc key?	14:35
Magi	Which button is it?	14:35
zuh	It's the one with the arrow	14:35
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Magi	The back-curved arrow? Uhh, ok, I've been trying to find Esc for half an hour now...	14:36
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mgedmin	yes, the first one below the d-pad	14:38
* sp3000 missed it too for like a week		14:38
sp3000	it's too obvious or something :)	14:39
* sp3000 missed it too for like a week		14:39
* sp3000 slaps his window switching muscle memory		14:39
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tigert	http://www.failed.it/crono/linux.png	14:42
timely	sp3000: of course, there's no way for me to get from that number to the other number	14:42
timely	tigert: :)	14:43
timely	but isn't OpenBSD not a linux distro?	14:43
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tigert	:)	14:43
inz	Does it list maemo ;)	14:44
inz	(not bored 'nuff to look for it ;)	14:44
koen	wasn't maemo the framework and IT200x the distro?	14:44
timely	i'm reading, i'll tell you if i see it	14:44
timely	nope, not there	14:45
inz	koen, whatever ;)	14:45
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timely	and if they're going to list OpenBSD, shouldn't they list SNV (and Solaris 10, and the new Solaris Express Developer thing)	14:46
timely	and Nexenta :)	14:46
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maddler	nice... my new N80 just arrived... a nice view next to N800 :D	15:42
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kkito	oh, the mv on maemo hasnt the -u option :?	15:44
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Veggen	I just ordered a Nokia 6233. It has 3G, at least, but as I have the N800, I don't care about functionality on it... ;-)	15:47
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Veggen	(that's the standard model we get at work, nowadays)	15:48
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timely	maddler: you like the n80 more than the n800?	15:49
timely	veggen: yeah, i need to find a 3g cell phone for <$60 just for my 770/n800 devices :)	15:50
maddler	timely: not at all... and they are two completely different devices...	15:51
maddler	but N80+N800 is a great du	15:51
maddler	du=duo	15:54
timely	echo /\|xargs -n1 svn up --non-interactive	15:55
timely	is my favorite command :)	15:55
* timely wonders how to get time to work correctly		15:57
inz	timely, what's wrong with your time, do you live in a twisted timespace?	15:57
timely	inz: i have a script that likes to do:	15:58
timely	time cvs up foo	15:58
timely	i don't think that:	15:58
timely	time echo /\| xargs -n1 svn up	15:58
timely	will work	15:58
timely	i think i'll try:	15:58
timely	echo /\|xargs -n1 time svn up	15:58
inz	That should work unless there's lots of /	15:59
timely	there are lots of /	15:59
inz	Err...	15:59
timely	it has each project from garage	15:59
inz	It will give you separate times	15:59
timely	yeah, i know	15:59
timely	not sure i can do much better than that	15:59
inz	time sh -c 'echo /\|xargs -n1 svn up'	16:00
vidarino	time ( ... )	16:00
inz	Yeah, that works too, should be pretty much the same thing	16:00
vidarino	yep	16:00
pahartik	Veggen: My Nokia 770 does have Nokia 6151 as mobile WCDMA uplink	16:02
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timely	i'm also not sure which is more useful timing the whole process or timing tree at a time	16:02
pahartik	Veggen: Quite nice combination, even though Nokia 770 does not have Bluetooth 2.0 and Nokia 6151 does not have HSDPA :)	16:04
Veggen	My current cell phone only has GPRS. Wasn't exactly fast, when I was out travelling ;)	16:08
Veggen	(I don't care too much about cost of usage - paid by work ;P)	16:09
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pahartik	Veggen: Oh, I have used GPRS uplink for years, over IrDA on PalmOS device and over Bluetooth 1.2 on PowerPC laptop	16:11
timely	sp3000: wanna talk me through setting up scratchbox2 on a system that isn't really "normal"? :)	16:12
Veggen	pahartik: it works, by all means. But fast? nah ;)	16:12
Veggen	pahartik: I downloaded detailed maps over all Milano, for example, to Maemo mapper. Glad I had an access point nearby when I did it, but with 3G speeds, it'd be doable on the road, too.	16:13
pahartik	Veggen: Bandwidth was almost never issue, but sometimes latency irritated me...	16:14
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andrunko	new canola beta2 version uploaded to repository	16:20
timely	andrunko: but where are the sources? ;-)	16:21
andrunko	:P	16:21
andrunko	i will mail them to you, heh	16:21
timely	ask diego for my email address? :)	16:21
andrunko	heh, i will	16:22
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sp3000	timely: eek :)	16:28
sp3000	I set it up on a box yesterdayish but that box is very normal	16:28
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sp3000	it compiled a $testprogram for target per instructions, and that's about all I know about it :D	16:29
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timely	sp3000: shall we try?	16:33
timely	i wonder if i can add a user for you and have you try :)	16:33
* sp3000 just followed instructions :)		16:33
* timely goes to look for them		16:33
sp3000	http://rahina.org/sb2/ and the linked README	16:34
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timely	UX: useradd: scratchbox name too long.	16:38
timely	that's not promising :)	16:38
sp3000	heh	16:38
Mike-disconnecte	morning all	16:38
timely	8.3 limits anyone? :)	16:38
Mike-disconnecte	just wondering something	16:38
timely	mike: for some of us it's nearly evening	16:38
Mike-disconnecte	is there a site that can tell me what the difference is between the hardware of the 770 and 800?	16:39
Mike-disconnecte	ok... good evening to some, morning to others :-D	16:39
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kkito	Mike-disconnecte, you can search for it on the wikipedia	16:40
Mike-disconnecte	thanks	16:40
Mike-disconnecte	will check it out there	16:40
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* timely frowns		16:57
timely	now i have to remember how to use git clone	16:57
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sp3000	timely: do tell me when you find out	17:05
timely	i've managed to get it work	17:05
timely	http://swift/world-all/source/ok/	17:05
* sp3000 didn't bother and just used another box to play on		17:05
timely	but i can't remember how	17:05
timely	and those are internal	17:06
kkito	how to do a mv -u on the n800?	17:06
timely	kkito: install zip, use tar, use, rsync, install mv?	17:06
kkito	because the mv bin form n800 didnt recognize the -u flag!	17:06
timely	kkito: normjally you're using busybox	17:06
timely	not mv	17:06
* sp3000 wonders if it's more practical to install rsync than script around that or try getting a real mv		17:06
* timely would install rsync		17:07
* sp3000 too		17:07
timely	if it isn't more practical (and it almost certainly is), it's certainly more useful	17:07
melmoth	kkito: i never use the u flag...but what about using rsync ?	17:07
melmoth	oh, people type way fatser than me here :)	17:07
sp3000	or, you could use rsync	17:07
sp3000	:P	17:07
kkito	ehhh... rsync is not good for the task that i want to do	17:08
timely	what's your task?	17:08
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kkito	my problem is that i want that a package, installs some files to the SD card, but when the dpkg cannot copy the files because it cannot set the ownership... then i copy that files to the internal memory and then on the postinst script mmove the contents to the /media/mmc1	17:09
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timely	rsync almost certainly has a "continue anyway" mode	17:11
mgedmin	you could use test and mv instead of mv -u	17:11
timely	and unless you use --delete, rsync should work	17:11
timely	sp3000: did you see my output from df?	17:11
sp3000	don't think so	17:12
timely	[wiggum]$ df -h .	17:12
timely	Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on	17:12
timely	10.3.100.184:/vol/boot/postal/lery	17:12
timely	112G -8.0Z 321G 101% /home/.lery	17:12
timely	[wiggum]$ coreutils-6.7/src/df -h .	17:12
timely	Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on	17:12
timely	10.3.100.184:/vol/boot/postal/lery	17:12
timely	112G -210G 321G - /home/.lery	17:12
sp3000	-8.0Z, gj :D	17:12
sp3000	(what happens when you mix bytes with your antibytes?)	17:15
mgedmin	whoa	17:16
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* pahartik finds out that "Z" in that "df" output stands for ZiB (zebibyte, 2^70)		17:24
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jtra	df supports reporting of sizes up to 2^70? cool :)	17:28
maddler	jtra: yep... I'm going to buy a new 160ZB SATA/30 HD! :D	17:29
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jtra	but that minus sign means _you_ owe that to the drive ;-)	17:29
Mike-disconnecte	anyone know where i can download the it2006 image without having a 770?	17:30
mgedmin	I don't think you can	17:31
mgedmin	IIRC the click-through licence said something about forbidding redistribution	17:31
Mike-disconnecte	that sux	17:31
Mike-disconnecte	wanted to try it on a 800	17:32
Mike-disconnecte	read somewhere that the hardware is not that different	17:32
Tak	did you try putting in the mac from your n800?	17:32
pahartik	Mike-disconnecte: You only need MAC of 802.11 interface of Nokia 770 device and HTTP client... (For some reason it did not work with Bluetooth MAC (yes, it is probably not called MAC in official context))	17:33
melmoth	why cannot i change the current time ? Whatever the change i make, it keeps being the old time.	17:33
Mike-disconnecte	yeah it didnt work	17:33
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mgedmin	I strongly suspect OS2006 won't work on OS2007	17:34
mgedmin	I think the flasher will refuse to flash it	17:34
mgedmin	there's a device ID in there somewhere	17:34
Mike-disconnecte	its worth a shot though	17:34
mgedmin	the hardware is different enough, have you read the notes about os2007for770?	17:35
Mike-disconnecte	not fully	17:35
Mike-disconnecte	the only thing i am insterested in is the screen and the wlan	17:35
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Mike-disconnecte	if those 2 things are the same it should work	17:36
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kender	hi	17:36
Mike-disconnecte	and i want to be able to put it in to usb host mode	17:36
Mike-disconnecte	anyone know what the first 6 of the mac address for the 770 is?	17:38
mgedmin	I've seen three 770 that have Wifi macs starting with 00:14:A7	17:39
pahartik	Mike-disconnecte: One could probably find MAC strings by using "grep" with regular expression on documents under http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/	17:44
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mgedmin	I do not think he has the filesystem access needed for grep	17:45
pahartik	mgedmin: So HTTP client is still needed...	17:46
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mgedmin	I have filesystem access :)	17:48
mgedmin	the only MAC address in there is for a Think Outside Keyboard	17:48
pahartik	mgedmin: Damn that :)	17:49
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pahartik	mgedmin: But can it be called MAC, since it is Bluetooth?	17:50
mgedmin	I think so, yes	17:50
mgedmin	The following technologies use the MAC-48 identifier format: * Ethernet, * 802.11, * Bluetooth, ... -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address	17:52
pahartik	mgedmin: That is good information	17:53
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Mike-disconnecte	thanks	17:58
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Streg	http://popsci.typepad.com/nokia/	18:09
ocnarfidW	Here are some shots from that launchparty: http://www.flickr.com/photos/nycjournal/sets/72157594534903970/	18:10
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ajturner	I like that the pic of the N800 by itself has tags like: beer, wine, pipes	18:16
ajturner	and geeks - of course	18:16
ocnarfidW	heh.	18:17
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ajturner	when does the N95 get released?	18:17
ajturner	wonder if the GPS from the N95 can feed the N800?	18:17
ocnarfidW	This I don't know, just got mine a few days ago.	18:17
ajturner	your N800 or 95?	18:17
ocnarfidW	N800	18:18
ajturner	ah	18:18
ajturner	right, but teh q is the other side - can the gps on teh N95 be offered via a BT cnxn	18:18
matt_c	ajturner: it might be possible to write a wrapper in say Python that reads the connection (if avaialble from the API) and spits it out over BT	18:19
ajturner	a software NMEA - or BT gpsd ;)	18:19
ajturner	matt_c - but you don't think it's supported on the device currently?	18:19
ajturner	what is the eta of the N95, my 6600 is getting awfully dated	18:20
matt_c	My guess would be a few months but that's just a guess.	18:20
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ajturner	of course, it's always +n months to make it stateside	18:21
ajturner	heck, we can't even get the 6600 or better here from a carrier :p	18:21
matt_c	ajturner: I got a 6682 from cingular, but it has no memory	18:21
ajturner	it's a sad - sad state of affairs here	18:21
ajturner	but you can't get it anymore, can you?	18:21
ajturner	we're relegated to ebay or int'l	18:22
matt_c	ajturner: a place like letstalk might still have it	18:22
ajturner	but that's the 6682 , quite dated itself	18:22
ajturner	just need to pick one up on one of my trips abroad	18:22
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matt_c	ajturner: yeah, I've had it for a year or so now.	18:23
matt_c	You can snag E61's and similar for full price at various places too.	18:24
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matt_c	for location stuff on the N95 you might be able to make use of this API: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/04b5d5e1-1510-49ca-988b-d7aace6dfeaa/S60_Platform_BLID_App_Satellite_Info_API_Spec_v1_1_en.pdf.html	18:25
ajturner	E61 - qwerty?!?! eep!	18:25
florian	good morning	18:25
ajturner	run away!	18:25
ajturner	matt_c - good find on the api	18:26
ajturner	though I would prefer to work in python	18:26
ajturner	so much nicer than setting up targets & compiling :p	18:26
matt_c	ajturner: there's a whole set of C++ location APIs that a smart person could write a Python wrapper fo.	18:26
ajturner	matt_c - thank goodness for smart people ;)	18:26
ajturner	personally, I like working on the application level than the system/tool level :)	18:27
ajturner	there are some good python libs for PythonS60 for doing NMEA parsing & GPS data display	18:28
ajturner	so just gotta poke one of those devs to extend to add this ;)	18:28
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RobHu	What is all this talk about peppervr about? Is it a graphics chip? Doesn't the OS already provide hw acceleration for graphics?	18:31
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Mike-disconnecte	anyone know if there is a softmac update for the n800? or how to get the one for the 770 to work on the 800?	18:58
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Guardian	hmm how can i know the total amount of memory used by my application ?	19:03
Guardian	please	19:03
Tak	top?	19:03
Guardian	is it accurate ?	19:03
mgedmin	Guardian: that's a very difficult question to answer on a linux system	19:03
Tak	something like a memory profiling tool (in scratchbox) might be better	19:03
Guardian	and top has a column %MEM , i guess the number is not that accurate	19:04
mgedmin	see e.g. http://virtualthreads.blogspot.com/2006/02/understanding-memory-usage-on-linux.html	19:04
Guardian	mgedmin: oh really ? i thought it was straighforward but i did not know the right command :)	19:04
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mgedmin	virtual memory, shared libraries, mmapped files... how do you count what memory is actually used?	19:04
kulve	cat /proc/<pid>/smaps	19:05
Guardian	kulve: the device i'm using does not have smaps :(	19:05
Tak	imo shared libs don't count	19:05
Guardian	i'm testing on something else than the N770 or N800	19:05
kulve	Guardian: well, there would have still been quite a many numbers to interpret..	19:06
Guardian	sure	19:06
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Guardian	thx for the link mgedmin	19:06
kulve	I checked the smaps on my desktop..	19:06
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mgedmin	I like this way: run free; look at the amount of free memory (+buffers/cache); run the program, while it is running run free again and see the difference	19:07
mgedmin	some people don't like this method	19:07
mgedmin	because, e.g. it includes any shared libraries that weren't used before but are loaded by your program	19:07
Tak	not great for watching noninstant memory usage	19:07
mgedmin	btw free on the n800 reports memory used by the disk cache as used	19:09
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mgedmin	and doesn't have the 'cached' column	19:09
mgedmin	I don't like that	19:09
maddler	ever tried htop?	19:10
maddler	is an "advanced" top...	19:10
Tak	they should have called it hitop	19:12
maddler	why?	19:13
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Tak	much cooler name	19:14
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maddler	oh... :)	19:19
* maddler goes home...		19:22
maddler	see you all later...	19:22
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Mike-disconnecte	name michael	19:24
Mike-disconnecte	how do u change your name again?	19:24
Mike-disconnecte	never mind	19:24
mgedmin	/nick ?	19:26
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tko	tigert, I think it's pretty safe to say that if nothing on the product needs the theming, it's not done	19:28
tko	I should probably install irc on my n800...	19:28
Tak	just install the whole internet	19:29
tko	I'm still waiting for getting it at the office :)	19:29
tko	officially that is	19:29
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s-ndh-c	:)	19:40
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s-ndh-c	will future versions of the itos have newer gtk versions?	19:43
tko	naw.. we'll just aim backwards towards gtk1	19:45
s-ndh-c	:)	19:45
s-ndh-c	just asking as this hildon-1 branch seems to want gtk 2.10	19:46
tko	we're catching up http://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGtk210Changes	19:46
tko	hmm, missing link? https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/gtk+/maemo-gtk-2-10/	19:46
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s-ndh-c	:)	19:49
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zuh	bleh, hildon-desktop runs, but matchbox doesn't move statusbar window to the correct position -> home menu doesn't open	19:50
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s-ndh-c	iam trying to build gtk2.10 inside my bora scratchbox target then build hildon-1 against that to see how well the c# binding works alp did against the hildon-1 source	19:50
tko	s-ndh-c, if you're about to play with 2.10, you should grab most if not all packages in sardine/experimental	19:52
zuh	And funnily enough, hildon-desktop didn't run through the link nor with maemo-summoner. I got it to run with '/lib/ld-linux.so.3 /usr/bin/hildon-desktop.launch'... :)	19:52
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s-ndh-c	tko: is it enough to change the sources list and do a dist-upgrade inside my bora sdk target?	19:53
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tko	s-ndh-c, upgrading to sardine/unstable requires some extra steps (sardine.garage.maemo.org) but once you have unstable, upgrading to experimental should work with dist-upgrade	19:54
s-ndh-c	ok thx	19:54
tko	though that's only because we don't have the repository properly configured, you should never get anything from experimental by default	19:54
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tko	there may be some bump on the roads, it's not called unstable or experimental for nothing	19:56
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tko	MDK, btw, are you already thinking about replacing the infoprint code with notification ?	19:58
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zuh	Heh, that's funny, pango in sardine depends on cairo but gtk is still 2.6.10 :)	20:01
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Andy80	hi	20:14
ferulo	zuh: add sardine-experimental repository	20:16
k-s	does somebody know which X window property application switcher looks in n800?	20:16
ferulo	and you will get gtk 2.10.6 :)	20:16
k-s	in 770 it works, but in N800 it doesn't	20:16
k-s	it show "Unknow"	20:17
k-s	it's a SDL app	20:17
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jobi	k-s: WM_CLASS	20:21
k-s	jobi: are you sure?	20:21
k-s	jobi: I have both WM_CLASS and _NET_WM_CLASS, but it just doesn't work on n800... desktop and 770 are ok	20:21
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jobi	k-s: there are strange things happening with SDL on N800	20:22
k-s	jobi: That's in the popup that appears on the bottom-left	20:22
k-s	jobi: I know	20:22
k-s	jobi: we're trying to figure out some weirdness here, due canola development	20:23
jobi	k-s: Lucas mentioned it	20:23
jobi	brb	20:23
k-s	jobi: like a misterious click that happens when you create a new Xwindow over SDL (used to play video inside canola)	20:23
k-s	jobi: it works with desktop or 770, but n800 it fails	20:24
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hap	hey	20:43
hap	has someone a deb package for 'screen' (gnu util) ?	20:43
mgedmin	I had one	20:43
mgedmin	for mistral	20:43
tko	http://downloads.maemo.org/product/screen ?	20:43
mgedmin	had one bug: didn't create /var/run/screen after each reboot	20:43
hap	tko: yeah, missing ..	20:44
mgedmin	http://mg.pov.lt/770/screen.install	20:44
Tak	seems like a prime candidate for mud-builder	20:45
mgedmin	or you can wait 10 minutes and I'll fix it to be installable in blue-pill mode	20:45
hap	mgedmin: i wll wait :)	20:45
mgedmin	and add the missing mkdir to the init script	20:45
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jobi	k-s: I remember our SDL guy was doing some funny hacks to workaround some even funnier hacks in SDL for N800	20:47
jobi	Kuisma is the one to ask	20:48
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jobi	it seemed SDL as using 2 different windows for whether you are fullscreen or not or something like that	20:48
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alex-weej	how come n800 doesn't have vorbis out of the box?	20:49
mgedmin	good, the screen in ubuntu already mkdirs /var/run/screens in its init.d script	20:49
koen	because 98% of nokia's costumers have no idea what 'vorbis' is?	20:49
Tak	jobi: that explains some weird bug reports I've had	20:49
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pahartik	koen: "costumers" indeed :)	20:51
alex-weej	koen: the situation is catch 22, and i'd have thought better of nokia given this whole project	20:51
pahartik	koen: Describes that group quite well, I imagine	20:51
alex-weej	i'm sure they can see that vorbis = free, efficient codec = more "1000s of songs" on the thing	20:52
mgedmin	ogg support would tickle the same audience that nokia wants to please by giving away discount codes: open source software developers	20:52
tko	having 0 mindshare doesn't help in that picture, though	20:52
koen	install the vorbis plugin and you can play your oggs	20:52
tko	and someone would have to form a legal opinion on the whole issue	20:53
* koen has 0 oggs		20:54
koen	all mp3 or mp4	20:54
* pahartik has only encoded audio content to AAC		20:55
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mgedmin	hap: can you try the screen package I just built?	20:55
mgedmin	hey, I can do that myself, too!	20:57
mgedmin	hm, it's not installable	21:04
maddler	mgedmin: I'll be happy to test... :)	21:05
alex-weej	koen: good for you :/	21:05
maddler	I would have been even happier if sshfs was working...	21:05
mgedmin	ok, back to the drawing board	21:05
mgedmin	ubuntu's version of screen has insane dependencies (perl-base!)	21:06
mgedmin	lsb-base is nice too	21:06
mgedmin	ah, for the prettyfied init script	21:06
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maddler	hehe	21:06
[mbm]	there's a program called dtach which is a mini version of screen	21:07
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mgedmin	where do all those perl dependencies come from?	21:14
mgedmin	and only when I compile in bora	21:14
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mgedmin	darn	21:18
Jaffa	evening, all	21:19
mgedmin	my screen package only works until first reboot	21:19
mgedmin	something's wrong with the init.d script	21:19
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mgedmin	it is not being run?	21:21
mgedmin	why?	21:22
mgedmin	/etc/rcS.d/S70screen-cleanup exists	21:22
Jaffa	It's run-level 2 which is started, not single-user mode	21:22
Jaffa	So it needs to go in /etc/rc2.d/	21:22
mgedmin	rcS is not single-user, it's startup	21:22
mgedmin	on desktop systems rcS is used before one of rc<number>.d	21:23
mgedmin	on maemo it is not used at all	21:23
mgedmin	ta-dah	21:23
* Jaffa really thinks rcS.d is single-user, not startup. On Debian its contents duplicate a lot of rc2.d		21:23
Jaffa	Hmm, maybe not.	21:24
mgedmin	run level 1 is single-user	21:26
tko	/etc/inittab	21:26
mgedmin	building fixed screen now	21:26
mgedmin	anyone has any ideas why dpkg-buildpackage in bora adds perl to my dependencies?	21:26
Jaffa	mgedmin: ${perl:Depends} in debian/control ?	21:27
mgedmin	no, just ${shlibs:Depends}	21:28
mgedmin	maybe I should create a garage project	21:29
mgedmin	and let somebody else figure it out :)	21:29
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mgedmin	aargh, it didn't work	21:31
hap	mgedmin: i ll wait you fix it ;)	21:31
mgedmin	okay, last attempt	21:38
timely	anyone here familiar w/ garage?	21:38
timely	what kind of licenses can you specify when you create a project?	21:39
mgedmin	a bunch	21:39
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timely	is there "assorted open source"?	21:39
mgedmin	can't type in xchat while firefox has a drop-down open :/	21:39
mgedmin	no...	21:40
mgedmin	huh, looks like a bug	21:40
tko	timely, https://garage.maemo.org/register/projectinfo.php ?	21:40
timely	switch to chatzilla(xulrunner) :)	21:40
timely	yeah, i'm reading it	21:40
mgedmin	duh, there is an "other"	21:41
* mgedmin can't use scrollbars		21:41
timely	other/proprietary	21:41
timely	but i'm not sure what that means	21:41
mgedmin	I guess the garage admins will have to manually check and approve it	21:41
mgedmin	yay, screen works for os2006	21:42
Tak	xmame is "other/proprietary"	21:42
mgedmin	even after reboot	21:42
mgedmin	is there a utf-8 capable ncurses for maemo?	21:43
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timely	i ask because someone submitted a project which said in its description ~various open source licenses~	21:44
timely	and then specified a license that wasn't other for the license field	21:44
timely	not sure what happened to it	21:45
mgedmin	aha, the perl-base dependency came not from my screen package, but from debconf	21:46
mgedmin	which is not available for bora	21:46
jobi	tigert: around?	21:48
tigert	yes	21:48
tigert	man. adam curry replied to my blog post :-o	21:49
tigert	lazyweb is amazing	21:49
jobi	tigert: made a package of that dynanic draw thing	21:50
jobi	http://people.via.ecp.fr/~jobi/gddraw/gddraw_0.1-1_armel.deb	21:50
tigert	sweet	21:50
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tigert	jobi: its the same binary though?	22:05
tigert	jobi: or did you even hildonize it? :)	22:05
jobi	tigert: just added fullscreen	22:05
jobi	and a .desktop file :p	22:05
tigert	ok	22:05
tigert	its kinda fun when you sketch something,	22:05
tigert	and then the screen blanks )	22:05
tigert	:)	22:06
koen	tigert: did you see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Look_%26_Feel yet?	22:06
tigert	and it's all gone since it doesnt refresh :)	22:06
koen	(those are mockups)	22:06
tigert	koen: hm	22:06
tigert	sweet stuff	22:08
tigert	but IMHO too small	22:08
tigert	did it have a stylus?	22:08
tigert	I have realized,	22:08
tigert	the more I use the thumb board	22:08
tigert	is that its not about how much you can stuff on the screen	22:08
tigert	but how much you can do with your big ol' thumb	22:08
roope	Hm.	22:08
tigert	we should do more with the iphone like scrolling etc ideas	22:08
tigert	not trying to stuff the one screen full of everything	22:08
tigert	but do sliding or such so we can have better interaction with some views or such	22:09
koen	tigert: those mockups also forget that the actual screen is 300dpi	22:09
roope	the openmoko link, the ui style logic is quite nice.	22:10
tigert	koen: most people who have not used an actual screen of that dpi	22:10
tigert	do not realize that	22:10
tigert	it is HUGE on your laptop screen	22:10
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koen	tigert: I'm trying it on a 200dpi vga screen right now	22:12
koen	let see if I can fix some sizes to be a bit more sane	22:12
tigert	thats docuwiki btw	22:12
tigert	edit link per chapter	22:12
tigert	its nice for spec writing in collaborative way	22:13
tigert	koen: try it on the N800	22:13
tigert	or the 770 if you have one handy	22:13
roope	I'm quite impressed with those ui concepts. They make sense.	22:13
koen	I don't have a buildenv for an n800	22:13
koen	and I need my n800 for actual work :)	22:13
tigert	no wait, its mediawiki	22:15
tigert	woot	22:15
tigert	koen: I mean	22:16
tigert	view the screenshots in the browser, silly :)	22:16
tigert	or set $DISPLAY?	22:16
roope	well, except the virtual keyboard layouts could be a bit optimized. ;)	22:17
koen	tigert: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/openmoko-running-on-an-ipaq	22:17
Tak	tigert: I agree	22:18
koen	200DPI vga display	22:18
timely	tigert: is the only easy place for me to get it2005sr0 from maemo.org?	22:18
tigert	timely: no idea :)	22:19
tigert	I only work here	22:19
timely	in fact	22:19
timely	i can't find it	22:19
timely	all i see is "bugfix release"	22:20
timely	3.2005.51-13	22:20
tigert	heh	22:20
tigert	koen: its funny that the openmoko screenshot of yours has an icon I did	22:20
timely	hrm, i wonder how to verify that the device i have is genuine	22:20
koen	:)	22:20
tigert	timely: FCC sticker?	22:21
tigert	roope: yea, the toolbar in middle is interesting idea	22:21
tigert	roope: its where your thumb likely is	22:21
timely	tigert: all i see is CE(three digits) (!)	22:21
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timely	does that mean it's counterfeit? :)	22:22
tigert	timely: wlan mac address	22:22
timely	yeah, it has that	22:22
tigert	timely: try that	22:22
timely	and maemo.org lets me get the updates w/ the mac address	22:22
timely	iirc it doesn't let me get updates w/ fake ones	22:22
tigert	if it reads "PROTOTYPE NOT FOR SALE" or something, its not a sales version obviously :)	22:22
timely	it doesn't say that :)	22:22
tigert	yea, sounds like a sales one	22:23
timely	is CE the european equivalent of FCC?	22:23
roope	not quite. CE is the electrical standard.	22:24
roope	FCC is telecomms, right.	22:24
timely	hrm	22:24
roope	it's the this device will not electrocute you -standard.	22:24
timely	the fakes don't have that :)	22:25
timely	hrm	22:25
timely	my flasher won't flash my device	22:25
timely	the flasher3 is supposed to flash 770s, right?	22:25
jobi	what is flickr gamma?	22:26
roope	well, more over the overall simplicity. i like it.	22:26
tigert	jobi: flickr is no longer beta, but since no respectable "web 2.0" service can be "1.0" or "stable" they are "gamma" to stay cool	22:27
timely	heh	22:27
koen	tigert: html 2.0!	22:27
* timely prefers html 3.2		22:27
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tigert	!	22:27
timely	everyone knows that ms software isn't good until after 3.1	22:27
jobi	nor after 3.11	22:28
timely	hrm this could be bad	22:28
timely	i'm flashing a device w/ an image that wasn't quite in place when the flasher started reading it :)	22:28
timely	i hope it doesn't become a brick :)	22:28
tko	http://baetzler.de/humor/version_numbers.html	22:29
tko	so, we're at 3.0 now... :)	22:29
roope	good times are a'coming	22:29
timely	hrm	22:29
timely	why is nickserv nagging me?	22:29
suihkulokki	maemo 3.11 for workgroups	22:29
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timely	suihkulokki: you know we need that	22:30
timely	but we don't have MS Schedule+	22:30
timely	and given that maemo3 already exists	22:30
ferulo	tigert: look at this web 2.0 logo picture: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=93136022&context=set-72057594060779001&size=o	22:30
timely	it looks like you'll have to wait until long after 3.11 to get 3.11fw	22:30
ferulo	is there any kind of pattern regarding logos in web 2.0? :p	22:31
* timely frowns		22:31
timely	um, has anyone here used the date time picker when they first flashed their device?	22:31
* timely wonders if this is something that was fixed after the sales release or for os2006		22:32
timely	(or 2007)	22:32
tigert	ferulo: http://tigert.1g.fi/blog-files/geoclue/logo.png :)	22:32
zuh	timely: Just don't pop the camera out when you are in the wizards ;)	22:32
timely	zuh: camera? this is a 770 running the shipping software	22:33
tigert	timely: try it with a freshly flashed N800	22:33
tigert	its kinda cute :)	22:33
timely	ooh!	22:33
* timely finds ice age		22:33
* timely frowns		22:33
timely	why didn't i find iceage before?	22:33
timely	i know i looked	22:33
tigert	"hello worl... hey! HEY!! I'm here HEY HEY! Can anyone hear me??? I can do video calls and all.. hey.!!"	22:34
tigert	"What is this dialog on top of me?"	22:34
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jobi	"Whose that mighty wizard anyway?"	22:35
timely	um	22:36
timely	the 770 sales release software is kinda laggy	22:36
timely	i asked it to move a video to my device	22:36
timely	and had time to look in my mmc, not see it, go back to the source folder, see the file, and try to move it again!	22:36
timely	all before the move progress dialog appeared :)	22:37
timely	this should be fun, since i now have a move file to memory card dialog and the file is gone	22:37
* timely wonders if the app will crash :)		22:37
sp3000	hey, it's gnomevfs, right, it'll probably try to delete the file that's in the way :P	22:38
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timely	i was expecting it to do that :)	22:39
* timely was disappointed		22:39
timely	nothing happened	22:39
timely	it didn't even apologize for not being able to move the file	22:39
sp3000	ever tried to replace files in a directory with themselves via two paths using symlinks along the path to the same directory? :D	22:40
timely	heh	22:40
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timely	um	22:41
timely	why do i have a "favourites" file	22:41
arnnnn	is the gps navigation kit work in the us ? is there us map ?	22:41
timely	didn't someone tell them that Americans don't have "favourites"?	22:41
sp3000	desk, pply directly to the forehead. desk, apply ...	22:42
* timely ponders		22:42
timely	i'm playing a file using "Audio player"	22:42
timely	but i mvoed it using file manager	22:42
timely	so it isn't there anymore	22:43
* timely wonders when Audio player will realize it's gone :)		22:43
arnnnn	does the navigation kit work in USA ?	22:43
timely	http://www.nokiausa.com/770/1,7841,,00.html	22:43
* timely is looking		22:43
Mike-disconnecte	ok all...i am back again	22:45
Mike-disconnecte	question... anyone know how to change the wifi driver on the 770 (got one from a friend to test on)	22:45
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timely	well, audio player gives me absolutely no feedback when i try to play the song that's no longer on the file system :)	22:52
Mike-disconnecte	question... anyone know how to change the wifi driver on the 770 (got one from a friend to test on)	22:53
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sbaturzio	Aloha!	22:55
timely	root@nexenta:~# man zfs	22:56
timely	No manual entry for zfs	22:56
timely	See 'man 7 undocumented' for help when manual pages are not available.	22:56
timely	oops, wrong window	22:56
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arnnnn	what's the difference between handheld and vehicle navigator ?	23:00
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Streg	for the the other one you'll need an automatic transmission? :)	23:04
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florian	re	23:06
ajturner	w00t - when did Maemo Mapper get added to the bora repo?	23:06
bergie	I think couple days ago	23:06
bergie	seems to work just fine	23:07
* bergie wonders why Maemo Mapper doesn't supply the openstreetmap tile URLs as a default		23:07
bergie	that'd make it a lot more legimate	23:07
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timely	provide a patch, the source is open	23:08
Mike-disconnecte	question... anyone know how to change the wifi driver on the 770 (got one from a friend to test on)	23:08
timely	mike: you sound like a broken record	23:08
timely	try a mailing list	23:08
Mike-disconnecte	i have... i saw it yesterday, but cant seem to find it today	23:12
Mike-disconnecte	just my lucj	23:12
Mike-disconnecte	luck*	23:12
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bergie	timely: I'd love to, but C isn't really my cup of tea	23:21
* bergie is quite busy between hacking Midgard and new stuff like Maemo Plazer		23:21
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bergie	BTW, anybody here know whether the python applet examples run in existing maemo or just some upcoming version? https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/maemo-af-desktop/example-plugins/src/	23:22
bergie	the commit times are suspiciously recent at least ;-)	23:24
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nelson	Hmmmm.... I'm stuck in continual reboot mode.	23:29
nelson	patience hasn't solved it.	23:30
timely	pull the battery	23:30
nelson	removing the battery and waiting hasn't solved it.	23:30
ttobin	nelson: reflash	23:30
timely	reflash	23:30
ttobin	nelson: and don't upgrade busybox	23:30
nelson	sigh.	23:30
nelson	didn't upgrade busybox.	23:30
nelson	installed tigert's theme.	23:30
ttobin	hm, weird, you didn't run against maemo:sys or whatnot?	23:30
nelson	Nope.	23:31
ttobin	oh well :(	23:31
nelson	Didn't gainroot either.	23:31
timely	anyway, us site doesn't seem to show the gps for 770 stuff	23:31
ttobin	my co-worker's N800 freaked out with the perpetual reboots once he upgraded busybox	23:31
timely	https://shop.navicoretech.com/	23:33
timely	definitely no sign of navicore for us	23:33
timely	since that's where it'd be	23:33
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nelson	Does flasher2 work for OS2007?	23:34
timely	i wouldn't recommend it :)	23:34
* timely considers contributing to the #maemo drinking game		23:36
sbaturzio	today I've made some test with aircrack-ng, after some test the wlan0 device seems disappeared. Only a reboot bring it up again	23:36
sbaturzio	is there another way to bring up the device manually?	23:37
mgedmin	nelson: did you install the theme cacher first?	23:37
mgedmin	nelson: as an alternative to reflashing you could use the flasher to disable the lifeguard	23:38
nelson	mgedmin: yes, I installed theme cacher first.	23:38
mgedmin	it might then boot (into some broken state)	23:38
nelson	mgedmin: I'll give it a try.	23:39
mgedmin	timely: have a drink every time someone gets into a reboot loop?	23:39
mgedmin	nelson: you have a n800, I assume?	23:39
timely	i was thinking more like "change log between os2005 and 2005.1" :)	23:39
nelson	mgedmin: yes	23:40
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nelson	Hmmmm..... no-lifeguard-reset is turned on, but it's still rebooting.	23:51
* nelson reflashes		23:51
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mgedmin	aaah, automated tests are good	23:59

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