| Molagi | does anyone got problems of closing the mplayer while playing video | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Molagi | always freezes | 00:00 |
| user__ | hello | 00:00 |
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| keesj | maddler, I now have maemo-mapper kinda-working | 00:07 |
| maddler | keesj: any specific problem? | 00:08 |
| keesj | well I think I have upgraded the sqlite lib to version 3 | 00:09 |
| tigert | arghh | 00:09 |
| tigert | WE SUCK | 00:09 |
| tigert | "Updated Internet Tablet OS 2006 release." | 00:09 |
| tigert | "This is the final release of the Internet Tablet OS 2006 edition." | 00:09 |
| tigert | "The latest Internet Tablet OS 2006 release " | 00:09 |
| tigert | three files | 00:09 |
| disq | uh | 00:09 |
| lle2 | w | 00:09 |
| tigert | how on earth do we think people understand this?? | 00:09 |
| tigert | fsck | 00:09 |
| wwalker | I don't understand it, so I must agree | 00:11 |
| lle2 | soon it'll all be irrelevant anyway when the new sb2 based sdk takes over the world. all I need now is a good name. | 00:11 |
| maddler | hehe... yes... that's not so clear | 00:11 |
| keesj | pretty clear its the last and latest release what is wrong? | 00:11 |
| keesj | last and latest and final :p | 00:12 |
| keesj | but don't ever hire me! | 00:12 |
| maddler | it reminds me of Beneath a steel sky... :D | 00:12 |
| kjetilho | keesj: can you order them chronologically for me? | 00:13 |
| maddler | I could use the wrench to check the *real* latest version... | 00:13 |
| maddler | updated, latest, final :) | 00:13 |
| * tigert mails about it | 00:13 | |
| tigert | yeah "seriously, the final, honest!!" | 00:13 |
| tigert | "update to the seriously absolute final version" | 00:14 |
| maddler | "TAKE ME!" :D | 00:14 |
| tigert | :) | 00:14 |
| tigert | man, this is silly | 00:14 |
| tigert | I guess the files just got added and nobody checked the descriptions of the older ones | 00:14 |
| maddler | yes... looks silly... | 00:14 |
| maddler | it gives the feeling that no one really cares... | 00:14 |
| keesj | and I have to enable bluetooth by hand... | 00:15 |
| kjetilho | the descriptions would be fine -- if they were preceded by the release date | 00:15 |
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| maddler | keesj: I solved creating a usb-{u[|down} script and a couple .desktop files... | 00:16 |
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| maddler | keesj: and now I can turn both BT and USB0 from menu | 00:16 |
| tigert | I think the clue is 1.2006, 2.2006, 3.2006 | 00:16 |
| maddler | tigert: yep... but a newbie won't find it so fast... | 00:17 |
| maddler | I think "lastest..." should always point to the "actual" latest... | 00:17 |
| maddler | or else better to have no description... | 00:17 |
| tigert | maddler: well, *I* was puzzled for a while | 00:19 |
| tigert | and I know this stuff | 00:20 |
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| tigert | oh well, hopefully it gets fixed | 00:20 |
| tigert | we have so much to learn about release management :=P | 00:20 |
| maddler | tigert: hehehe... drop me a line if I can help... :) | 00:23 |
| tigert | maddler: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/331 < any of those interest you? | 00:27 |
| tigert | ok. sleep time | 00:32 |
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| tigert | see you tomorrow | 00:32 |
| disq | night. | 00:33 |
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| maddler | lemme see... | 00:33 |
| maddler | oh... we were talking about that yesterday... ;) | 00:34 |
| maddler | looks like that's not only my brain that's going away... :D | 00:34 |
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| keesj | maddler, what do you use usb for? | 00:49 |
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| Markov | is there another way to accept autocomplete aside | 00:54 |
| Markov | from touching word? | 00:55 |
| kjetilho | what do you suggest instead? | 00:57 |
| Markov | a button on the virtual keyboard. | 00:58 |
| kjetilho | well, that is what it is? | 00:58 |
| kjetilho | are you talking about the stylus keyboard or the thumb keyboard? | 00:59 |
| Markov | thumb | 00:59 |
| kjetilho | the non-virtual right arrow key accepts the autocomplete | 01:00 |
| Markov | oooh let me try that out | 01:00 |
| Markov | nice! thanks | 01:01 |
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| kjetilho | it's amazing how non-obvious that is :-) | 01:01 |
| kjetilho | I asked here myself -- although I realised it on my own two seconds afterwards :) | 01:02 |
| Markov | heh i just forgot about those buttons . | 01:02 |
| kjetilho | it took me a long while to realise the round arrow could be used as ESC in XTerm,t oo | 01:03 |
| kjetilho | vi was a real pain before that, let me tell you | 01:03 |
| Markov | heh i'm an emacs man ;) | 01:05 |
| keesj | kjetilho, I use the right arrow to accept | 01:06 |
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| ocnarfid | Hi! | 01:06 |
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| keesj | greets | 01:08 |
| Markov | also when using hw rec the autocapitalizer doesn't work | 01:08 |
| Markov | i GEt all SOrtS of craziness | 01:09 |
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| |tbb| | 4 | 01:13 |
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| maddler | keesj: (sorry for the delay) usb networking | 01:15 |
| maddler | keesj: in the place I'm working wi-fi is *forbidden* | 01:15 |
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| |tbb| | heya maddler | 01:16 |
| |tbb| | do u have made an usb network script | 01:16 |
| maddler | no... simply a 2lines script and a couple .desktop files | 01:19 |
| maddler | just to ifconfig usb0 {up|down} | 01:20 |
| maddler | very basic stuff... | 01:20 |
| maddler | same for bluetooth... | 01:20 |
| maddler | faster than opening control panel... | 01:21 |
| maddler | |tbb|: you don't really need a script for usb networking | 01:21 |
| maddler | you only need to insmod g_ether module... | 01:21 |
| maddler | and do ifconfig usb0 up | 01:22 |
| maddler | and networking is ready... | 01:22 |
| |tbb| | k will try it | 01:24 |
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| maddler | |tbb|: there is an howto on maemo.org | 01:33 |
| [mbm] | there was a package somewhere that gave you an applet to switch ebtween disk and network for usb | 01:53 |
| saerdnaer | what was the name of this improved email app for n700? | 01:57 |
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| hub | what is a n700? | 01:57 |
| saerdnaer | oh yes | 01:58 |
| saerdnaer | its late | 01:58 |
| saerdnaer | for an nokia 770 | 01:58 |
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| Schmots | hello | 02:16 |
| Schmots | Anyone used the vmware dev tool? Are you able to run an apt-get update or install anything in sandbox? | 02:17 |
| nomis | Schmots: do you mean scratchbox? Just use "fakeroot apt-get ..." | 02:18 |
| Schmots | yeah.. scratchbox sorry | 02:19 |
| Schmots | that isn't my current problem.. the problem is I get a 401 erro | 02:19 |
| Schmots | error | 02:19 |
| nomis | oh. | 02:20 |
| nomis | Sorry, cannot test right now. | 02:20 |
| Schmots | unauthorized access | 02:20 |
| pbrook | are/should you be going through a proxy? | 02:20 |
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| Schmots | not going through a proxy | 02:20 |
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| Schmots | #PATH: n ne n nw w nw n w nw ne nw nw w w w nw s se se sw s s se se e s se e | 02:22 |
| Schmots | #PATH: e ne e se e se e e s se se s e s se s s e e e ne e e n n e n ne | 02:22 |
| Schmots | wrong window | 02:22 |
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| Schmots | It just doesn't make sense | 02:26 |
| Schmots | First off, this may help answer something for me.. is reposity.maemo.org a cluster? | 02:26 |
| Schmots | I notice multiple ip addresses in the output | 02:27 |
| [mbm] | probably served by multiple machines; pretty common for busy websites | 02:28 |
| Schmots | yeah, not saying its not.. but if it wasn't a cluster, I would have yet another problem to troubleshoot | 02:29 |
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| [mbm] | I'm guessing that they're somehow out of sync and you're having trouble? | 02:31 |
| Schmots | no, its not an outof sync database.. its a lack of access permissions | 02:31 |
| Schmots | its a 401 | 02:31 |
| Schmots | not local access | 02:31 |
| Schmots | repository access | 02:31 |
| [mbm] | then you dont have access to that particular file or directory | 02:32 |
| Schmots | exactly, but why. Why don't I have access to the common mameo repositories | 02:32 |
| [mbm] | you typed the wrong url? | 02:32 |
| Schmots | no | 02:33 |
| Schmots | the repositories are there.. I am just not authorized to view them.. I can't even browse to the dir's in a browser | 02:33 |
| * [mbm] thinks this would go a lot easier if the problem came with a clear example | 02:33 | |
| Schmots | ok | 02:33 |
| pbrook | Have you tried manually fetching the url that fails? | 02:34 |
| Schmots | I can't copy and paste between the vm so bear with me. | 02:34 |
| Schmots | apt-get update | 02:34 |
| Schmots | Err http://repository.maemo.org bora/free Packages | 02:34 |
| Schmots | 401 Unauthorized [IP: 64.212.198.104 80] | 02:34 |
| Schmots | yes, I have tried a manual wget | 02:34 |
| [mbm] | that should be http://repository.maemo.org/dists/bora/free/ | 02:35 |
| Schmots | not in an apt sources.list | 02:35 |
| Schmots | thats a direct retype of my error output | 02:35 |
| [mbm] | well yeah, but I'm saying look at that url and fiugre out if there's an error | 02:35 |
| [mbm] | ince the file it's trying to fetch is a Package or Package.gz from within there | 02:35 |
| Schmots | oh yeah, I have | 02:35 |
| [mbm] | looks fine from here | 02:36 |
| Schmots | when I get down to the final file, I get the unauthorized even in the browser | 02:36 |
| Schmots | maybe maemo has blocked my ISP | 02:36 |
| [mbm] | why? | 02:36 |
| Schmots | don't know why. But thats all I can figure. I can't tell from the error messages why.. since 64.212.198.104 is repository.maemo.org | 02:37 |
| [mbm] | well, edit your /etc/hosts so repository.maemo.org uses the other ip | 02:38 |
| Schmots | it switches between trying that and the .129 | 02:38 |
| Schmots | both reply with the 401 | 02:38 |
| Schmots | unfortunatly I had to rebuild my work laptop windows so I can't try it out of a vm | 02:39 |
| * [mbm] hasn't gotten a 401 on any one of the packages files in the above url | 02:40 | |
| [mbm] | (just checked) | 02:40 |
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| Schmots | I don't suppose anyone here is one of the apache admins for meamo.org are they? | 02:43 |
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| Schmots | going to switch from vmplayer to vmware server to see if the better network support will eleviate my problem | 02:50 |
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| Schmots | brb.. server crash at work | 02:53 |
| Schmots | #leave | 02:53 |
| Schmots | #quit | 02:53 |
| Schmots | doh | 02:53 |
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| disq | nomis: if you're still there, i just put up 0.25a which should fix your problem | 02:53 |
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| maddler | time to hit the bed here... | 03:01 |
| disq | night | 03:02 |
| maddler | bye dudes... | 03:06 |
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| nickers | I just bought a n800, wonderful device | 03:26 |
| nickers | I want to install some applications, is there any way to specify the ext. SD as the location like on a zaurus | 03:26 |
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| matt_c | If anyone is interested, I've finally gotten a hang of this dpkg-buildpackage thing: http://www.postneo.com/2007/02/11/packaging-python-imaging-library-for-maemo-30-bora-and-the-n800 | 03:26 |
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| pbrook | nickers: Short answer is no. | 03:27 |
| kjetilho | nickers: I don't think you really want to do that? it makes hot-swapping harder | 03:27 |
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| nickers | hmmmm, well how much can I install before I crash :) | 03:27 |
| pbrook | nickers: There's instructions in the FAQ for booting of a SD card. That's probably the easiest way. | 03:27 |
| * pbrook points at the memory control panel entry. | 03:28 | |
| nickers | pbrook: thanks dude! | 03:28 |
| kjetilho | how big is the builtin flash on n800? | 03:29 |
| matt_c | .. /dev/mtdblock4 251.5M 98.0M 153.5M 39% / | 03:30 |
| matt_c | there's a ton there. | 03:30 |
| kjetilho | double the size of the 770, then. should be plenty! | 03:30 |
| matt_c | I never ran out of room on / on my 770 | 03:30 |
| nickers | is there anyway to video conf with a pc/mac? | 03:35 |
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| matt_c | nickers: see http://www.postneo.com/2007/02/11/packaging-python-imaging-library-for-maemo-30-bora-and-the-n800 | 03:40 |
| matt_c | nickers: er not that | 03:40 |
| matt_c | stupid ^C^V | 03:40 |
| matt_c | http://videovoip.tableteer.nokia.com/ | 03:40 |
| nickers | lol thanks I mean i appreciate the packaging and all but the voip is more along the lines | 03:41 |
| * matt_c hacks on camera.py | 03:42 | |
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| mitcheloc | isn't there a limited lifetime to the SD card for reading/writing? | 06:00 |
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| ocnarfid8 | everybody is gonna die someday | 06:14 |
| bmidgley_ | your sd will wear out about the time you can get 32x the capacity for half the price | 06:15 |
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| Markov | hey! how do i copy a file using the file manager? | 06:35 |
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| Markov | when i just drag and drop, it moves the file. | 06:35 |
| Tak | you can do copy/paste | 06:36 |
| Tak | or "duplicate" | 06:36 |
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| Markov | how do you duplicate? | 06:40 |
| Markov | copy and paste is too much menuing | 06:40 |
| Tak | tap+hold, Edit->Duplicate | 06:42 |
| Markov | aaah. thanks! | 06:44 |
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| cesman | gpd: you missed it, I had the n800 streaming from my backend | 07:40 |
| tigert | morning | 08:12 |
| * cesman perhaps for bed | 08:13 | |
| tigert | ;) | 08:14 |
| tigert | man, the bus drivers keep the heat very high | 08:14 |
| [mbm] | streaming what? | 08:14 |
| * tigert takes off the coat | 08:14 | |
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| * zuh hopes it didn't go further than that | 08:32 | |
| tigert | nah | 08:41 |
| tigert | not a sauna :) | 08:41 |
| suihkulokki | saunabus? | 08:41 |
| * suihkulokki smells a business model | 08:41 | |
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| Tak | saunabus -> outside in winter in finland sounds like a good way to die | 08:46 |
| tigert | well, there is the pub tram too, so why not.. :) | 08:48 |
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| plaes | suihkulokki: in Estonia we already have these.. ;) | 09:59 |
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| Guardian | morning maemo | 10:18 |
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| tigert | morning | 10:40 |
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| X-Fade | tigert: Why is there padding to the left of the mini vkb in Plankton? I don't see it in other themes? | 11:16 |
| X-Fade | It pushes the vkb a little off the screen to the right? | 11:16 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:21 |
| maddler | morning all... | 11:32 |
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| i386 | anyone working on Mono bindings to Hildon? | 11:46 |
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| mukund | bedboi: the source code repository is now open | 11:53 |
| tigert | X-Fade: hmm | 11:56 |
| tigert | lemme investigate | 11:56 |
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| X-Fade | tigert: I don't know if I saw it in a previous version too. | 11:57 |
| robtaylor | i386: didn't alp do some way back when? | 11:57 |
| robtaylor | i386: you could probably pick those up and tidy them up | 11:57 |
| robtaylor | i386: http://maemo.ndesk.org/ | 11:58 |
| i386 | robtaylor: rock | 11:58 |
| i386 | Im a C# developer without an N800! | 11:58 |
| i386 | My partner has one | 11:58 |
| MDK | i386: everaldo and alp have the thing working AFAIK | 11:59 |
| robtaylor | i386: go get one then =) | 11:59 |
| robtaylor | MDK: oh, double rock | 11:59 |
| i386 | he wants me to write some stuff for him, namely a Google Reader viewer | 11:59 |
| MDK | i386: everaldo said he'll start a garage project will all the stuff | 11:59 |
| i386 | MDK: awesome! | 11:59 |
| bergie | MDK: I'm just chatting with Everaldo. I'll try to get his blog on Planet Maemo | 11:59 |
| MDK | but from what I understood, he has all the nice packaging/devkitting resolved | 11:59 |
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| MDK | bergie: cool | 11:59 |
| i386 | zhasper: boo! | 12:00 |
| zhasper | my n800 got itself into a reboot loop | 12:00 |
| zhasper | whee! | 12:00 |
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| everaldo | MDK, hi | 12:00 |
| zhasper | i386! fancy meeting you here! | 12:00 |
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| MDK | zhasper: 6sec reboot lopp? | 12:00 |
| i386 | I was just talking about you! | 12:00 |
| MDK | everaldo: hey | 12:00 |
| everaldo | bergie, MDK, I am blogging right now | 12:00 |
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| zhasper | MDK, it seems variable. It gets about halfway through the bootup then starts again | 12:00 |
| bergie | great, everaldo | 12:00 |
| i386 | everaldo: awesome! | 12:01 |
| zhasper | boots up fine from mmc, but then it'll reboot somewhere between 30sec and 120sec later | 12:01 |
| bergie | everaldo: Piotras is now packaging Midgard libs for Maemo, so we might try to find the time to do bindings :-) | 12:01 |
| zhasper | which it always has done, so i havne't been using that | 12:01 |
| MDK | zhasper: the 6sec reboot loop can be fixed with setting/unsetting the r&d mode | 12:01 |
| zhasper | i'm assuming i've filled up the internal flash, but it won't boot up long enough for me to check, even on mmc | 12:01 |
| zhasper | r&d mode == red pill mode? | 12:02 |
| MDK | bergie: heh, you know what Piotras means? ;) | 12:02 |
| MDK | it's like peter-dude | 12:02 |
| bergie | MDK: no, amuse me :-) | 12:02 |
| MDK | or peter-boy | 12:02 |
| zhasper | MDK: btw, i only came here to have a quick whinge to calm myself down before i started digging at it, i wasn't expecting actual help.. thanks! :) | 12:02 |
| bergie | nice | 12:02 |
| kulve | zhasper: r&d == research and development. red pill is just a mode in application manager | 12:02 |
| MDK | so it's not really a name in itself | 12:02 |
| MDK | zhasper: no, r&d using the cable and flasher | 12:03 |
| zhasper | oh ues | 12:03 |
| zhasper | --enable-rd or something like that. | 12:03 |
| zhasper | i remember doing that as part of a walkthrough once | 12:04 |
| i386 | so why is scratchbox limited to x86 only? | 12:05 |
| kulve | quit | 12:05 |
| kulve | hups | 12:05 |
| zhasper | i386: because you haven't ported it yet :p | 12:05 |
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| zhasper | i386: there's no flasher-3.0 for macosx yet either. | 12:18 |
| zhasper | or linuxppc for that matter | 12:19 |
| zhasper | okay, i've enabled r&d, then disabled it again, but it's still reboot looping | 12:21 |
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| X-Fade | zhasper: Did you update busybox? | 12:22 |
| zhasper | not recently. did install bash this afternoon though | 12:23 |
| kulve | zhasper: try disable the life guard reset with the flasher | 12:23 |
| zhasper | i saw an update to busybox, but didn't install it yet | 12:23 |
| kulve | installing bash sounds dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.. | 12:23 |
| zhasper | why so? | 12:24 |
| suihkulokki | unless you tamper /bin/sh , it should be sage | 12:25 |
| kulve | installing one binary should be ok, but if you change the default shell to all apps (like linkinh /bin/sh to bash) .. yep | 12:25 |
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| zhasper | i did change my own default shell to be /usr/bin/bash, but i didn't change the link | 12:27 |
| zhasper | okay, no-lifeguard-reset is set. now it at least gets to the point of asking for my lock code as it's booting, but it's not getting any further... progress bar is about 1/3 of the way across the screen | 12:28 |
| zhasper | at least it turns off if i hold in power button now | 12:28 |
| fish_ | btw: i guess there are no n800's for the discount price left? = | 12:29 |
| fish_ | ) | 12:29 |
| zhasper | they closed applications a bit over a week ago | 12:30 |
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| fish_ | crap.. missed that again | 12:32 |
| zhasper | hrm | 12:32 |
| monkeyiq | heh, you'll have to wait for the n830 | 12:33 |
| zhasper | there's nothing on there that i'm going to hugely miss. i think i'm going to try re-flashing | 12:33 |
| fish_ | monkeyiq: is that planned? | 12:33 |
| zhasper | has anyone got booting from MMC working reliably on the n800 yet? | 12:33 |
| zhasper | fish: it is if they continue to increment by 30 ;) | 12:33 |
| monkeyiq | fish_; was a ++joke; | 12:33 |
| bergie | our first maemo app :-) http://downloads.maemo.org/product/maemoplazer | 12:33 |
| fish_ | okay, so a sucessor is planned? | 12:34 |
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| * monkeyiq missed the 100E deal too, though he is not one of the cool kids | 12:35 | |
| fish_ | bergie: ah, plazes.. i just thought about registering | 12:35 |
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| bergie | fish_: it isn't yet as useful as it could be, as it only registers your plaze but doesn't do much about the info | 12:36 |
| bergie | once we get it hooked to apps like Maemo Mapper things get cool | 12:36 |
| koen | bergie: geoclue? | 12:36 |
| bergie | yeah, that's the plan | 12:36 |
| fish_ | bergie: does it already support gps? | 12:36 |
| koen | is geoclue still developed? | 12:36 |
| bergie | fish_: Plazes is basically an alternative to using GPS... you can get your physical location from the WiFi access point | 12:37 |
| bergie | koen: we try to get it back from mothballs :-) | 12:37 |
| bergie | the idea is to make MaemoPlazer a GeoClue position source, so then apps using geoclue positioning can get their position transparently from either GPS or Plazes | 12:37 |
| koen | bergie: cool | 12:37 |
| monkeyiq | bergie; but how many wifi aps give accurate location data? (that you've seen) | 12:38 |
| bergie | (geoclue already supports gpsd) | 12:38 |
| fish_ | bergie: well, i'm a little bit paranoid about given 'plazes.com' my location... | 12:38 |
| bergie | monkeyiq: Plazes collects a DB where you connect access point MAC address to the physical location | 12:38 |
| fish_ | but i must admin it sounds very intresting.. | 12:38 |
| bergie | so the WiFI AP doesn't need to know anything about it | 12:38 |
| bergie | if the AP you're using is not yet registered to Plazes maemoplazer will open a new browser window where you can enter its position | 12:38 |
| monkeyiq | bergie; cool, interesting info, I'll take a look at it for playing with the e61+wifi :) | 12:39 |
| bergie | either via typing the address or by point-clicking on Google Maps | 12:39 |
| fish_ | is it possible to add hotspot location with gps infos? | 12:47 |
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| fish_ | should be pretty easy to integrate, ie. with a kismet+gps log | 12:47 |
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| florian | good morning | 13:01 |
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| mgedmin | yay, I've got my n800 in my hands | 13:14 |
| tigert | hmm. my maemoplazer does nothing | 13:17 |
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| tigert | does one need to put login credentials somewhere? | 13:22 |
| tigert | should it ask? | 13:23 |
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| maddler | mgedmin: hooray! :D | 13:24 |
| maddler | :D | 13:24 |
| tigert | maybe i have old crap around | 13:27 |
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| bergie | tigert: it should ask | 13:37 |
| bergie | try running from command line if you get some error | 13:37 |
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| MDK | s-ndh-c: ping | 13:39 |
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| s-ndh-c | MDK: yeah iam here | 13:39 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 13:39 |
| MDK | s-ndh-c: I checked the window title setting | 13:40 |
| MDK | you're prolly not adding the window to the program | 13:40 |
| s-ndh-c | i did using this addwindow function | 13:40 |
| MDK | you should create a HildonProgram and set your application name using g_application_set_name | 13:41 |
| MDK | err, g_set_application_name | 13:41 |
| MDK | check here: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/hildon-libs/hildon-1/examples/hildon-window-example.c | 13:41 |
| s-ndh-c | will check that again | 13:41 |
| MDK | the above example will use 'hildon - window' as the user-visible title | 13:42 |
| s-ndh-c | this g_set_application_name is that something from gtk or is this hildon specific? | 13:44 |
| bergie | MDK: Are we doing something wrong when osso_sysnote.system_note_infoprint refuses to show non-ASCII messages? https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=387&group_id=190&atid=784 | 13:44 |
| s-ndh-c | MDK: thx anyways, will try that at home and see if it works | 13:45 |
| mgedmin | bergie: are those messages in UTF-8? | 13:47 |
| mgedmin | what does that exception look like? | 13:47 |
| bergie | I think so... we're not doing anything about them but I believe Plazes API uses UTF-8 | 13:47 |
| bergie | mgedmin: the exception said something about not being ASCII | 13:47 |
| bergie | I'll try to reproduce it when I'm home | 13:47 |
| mgedmin | it would have been useful to copy and paste the exception into the bug report | 13:48 |
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| MDK | s-ndh-c: g_set_application name is glib-specific way of setting application name | 13:49 |
| MDK | we're just actually using it for something ;) | 13:50 |
| tigert | bergie: ah, I had the old .py files | 13:50 |
| tigert | that confused it | 13:50 |
| tigert | it remembers the stuff though, I guess its in gconf | 13:50 |
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| bergie | tigert: it uses its own config file | 13:50 |
| MDK | bergie: should work fine with UTF-8 out of the box | 13:50 |
| tigert | right | 13:50 |
| bergie | MDK: OK, then the encodings are messed up in Plazes' end | 13:51 |
| MDK | it might be the binding | 13:51 |
| bergie | we'll look at it a bit later | 13:51 |
| bergie | but yeah, could be the Python bindings too | 13:51 |
| bergie | I'll reproduce it later today so we can check what the exception was | 13:51 |
| MDK | it definitelly works since we're using the infobanners with all possible translations and language-specific special characters | 13:51 |
| tigert | bergie: you could show a progress banner while it is trying to contact plazes | 13:52 |
| tigert | now it just seemingly does nothing when you run it | 13:52 |
| bergie | tigert: the plan is that it will be run non-interactively | 13:52 |
| tigert | and then after a uncertain amount of time displays the note of your plaze | 13:52 |
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| tigert | bergie: should be possible to disable it too of course :) | 13:53 |
| bergie | there already is a "maemoplazer_watcher" that gets "network changed" notices from Maemo's network manager | 13:53 |
| zbenjamin | hello @ sll | 13:53 |
| mgedmin | bergie: could be you're passing a utf-8 string where the bindings except a unicode string | 13:53 |
| bergie | and then displays the bubbles when needed | 13:53 |
| bergie | mgedmin: ok, I'll look. Now we pass the strings as they are | 13:53 |
| mgedmin | can I restore a os2006 backup on os2007? | 13:54 |
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| bergie | tigert: ...so that is why we didn't do a progress indicator | 13:56 |
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| i386 | so why is scratchbox limited to x86 only? | 14:09 |
| i386 | any technical reason? | 14:09 |
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| Veggen | mgedmin: You might be lucky, and it works. I'd take a look at the backup and see what it actually contains, before trying. Or, just go for it ;) | 14:12 |
| Veggen | but it's only files and settings etc. - so it *might* actually work, as things aren't *that* changed? | 14:13 |
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| tigert | bergie: ok | 14:17 |
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| jonek | /away | 14:21 |
| jonek | /back | 14:22 |
| jonek | /away | 14:23 |
| mgedmin | /make-up-your-mind | 14:23 |
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| jonek | /back | 14:24 |
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| maddler | /death | 14:29 |
| maddler | no... it's not working... | 14:29 |
| jonek | sorry | 14:30 |
| c0ffee | that's because you've put a space in front of the slash, maddler | 14:30 |
| kulve | anyone familiar with theora? In our tests theora is equally fast with vfp stuff when comparing to non-vfp with --disable-float. Is this expected result, or have we missed something? | 14:30 |
| kulve | bilboed: any thoughts? | 14:30 |
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| bilboed | kulve, as I said yesterday I seriously doubt there are vfp-specific optimizations in libtheora | 14:31 |
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| kulve | there is noticeable improvement in vorbis.. | 14:32 |
| kulve | I'm not an expert on this area, so my comments might be a bit stupid :) But to me it sounds that using floats and the n800's vfp-unit shouldn't be equally fast as using integer only math in the codec.. | 14:33 |
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| kulve | hmm.. actually it seems that there is a slight difference on decoding.. | 14:38 |
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| everaldo | MDK, bergie, http://everaldo.simios.org/mono-devkit-for-scratchbox | 14:41 |
| bergie | nice | 14:41 |
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| kulve | but not in encoding.. | 14:43 |
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| zbenjamin | kulve, hi i get my rootfs image finally | 15:13 |
| zbenjamin | kulve, i had to use nandsim to get it | 15:13 |
| zbenjamin | kulve, and the developer kernel ;-9 | 15:14 |
| kulve | well, good that you did get it after all :) | 15:15 |
| zbenjamin | kulve, i found a #mtd channel and they helped me out ;-) | 15:16 |
| zbenjamin | i used the 2.6.20 rc3 kernel and it worked. But for developing in scratchbox i had to go back to my old kernel. Scratchbox does not work with the newest kernel | 15:17 |
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| kulve | zbenjamin: why it doesn't work? | 15:18 |
| zbenjamin | but a question for all: Is it possible to FORCE the IC daemon to kill a current connection (like the wlan plugin does) | 15:19 |
| kulve | it works fine on my 2.6.19.2 | 15:19 |
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| zbenjamin | kulve, i tells me there were more than one scratchbox instances running but there weren't. I found a thread about not using it with 2.6.20 rc3 kernel. (i don't use the newest scratchbox) | 15:20 |
| kulve | ok | 15:20 |
| kulve | I think that problem should be fixed in the newest SB | 15:20 |
| zbenjamin | because of some problems with wlan i have to reestablish a wlan connection when the signal strength is too low. The nokia does not seem to switch to a better wlan-hotspot even if one is available. But if i reconnect by hand it uses the right one. So i thought about a daemon that gets the wlan statistics and kills the connection if it is not good anymore. | 15:22 |
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| zbenjamin | but i cannot find a api that gives me the possibility to close all connections like the wlan-plugin in the status bar. The only solution i can see is to do a sudo /etc/init.d/wlancond restart any suggestions? | 15:25 |
| kkito | ssvb, did you hack the sdl ? | 15:26 |
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| ZenithDK | hi....if I try to run maemo-3.0 rootfs on a Texas Instruments OMAP, it complains about inittab has missing id fields, is there some way to get around this? | 15:51 |
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| kulve | ZenithDK: not very accurate question.. | 15:54 |
| kulve | well, I'm off anyway | 15:54 |
| zbenjamin | kulve, ca | 15:54 |
| ZenithDK | okay, let me rephrase it: I want to run the maemo 3.0 rootfs image on my non-Nokia device, but since there have been changes in the inittab stuff, I get errors about missing id fields | 15:55 |
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| ZenithDK | is this well known, or do I need to dig some more before I start asking questions and so? | 15:56 |
| axique | hi...could anyone tell me the osso_rpc_async_run arguments to run/start osso_worldclock? Would be very nice! Thanks! | 15:56 |
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| part | zenithDK: the rootfs isn't even supposed to work on other devices | 16:00 |
| kkito | ZenithDK, you have only inittab problems? | 16:01 |
| kkito | you can run the kernel ok? | 16:01 |
| ZenithDK | we have compiled our own kernel, but for the rootfs we are using the maemo stuff | 16:02 |
| kkito | ZenithDK, ah ok | 16:02 |
| ZenithDK | part: why isn't it supposed to work on other devices? | 16:02 |
| ZenithDK | kkito: yes, so far....it fails on the init stuff and thus I don't know if other problems will come up later :) | 16:03 |
| kkito | ZenithDK, but whi do you want maemo on it? | 16:03 |
| ZenithDK | because that saves us a lot of work on getting stuff installed, when we use the maemoe stuff all the development stuff are already there | 16:04 |
| ZenithDK | we used the old 1.0 and 1.1 snapshots with great success, but we need a newer version off elfutils and thought 3.0 would be the way, but alas :) | 16:04 |
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| part | zenithDK: I guess they aren't tested on any other hardware | 16:11 |
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| s-ndh-c | arent there other distributions for embeded devices/handhelds/tablets? that maybe have been tested on a wider range of different hardware? | 16:15 |
| ZenithDK | s-ndh-c: we haven't really checked :) | 16:15 |
| ZenithDK | it worked well for what we were doing, so didn't bother too much with it | 16:16 |
| zuh | ZenithDK: Any details what the missing id fields are..?-) | 16:19 |
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| ZenithDK | yes, 2 secs | 16:22 |
| ZenithDK | but I just realized that it is because I need to install scratchbox separately | 16:22 |
| ZenithDK | we didn't need to do that with the earlier rootfs we used | 16:23 |
| part | zenithDK: if you don't mind me asking, what were you doing? | 16:23 |
| ZenithDK | INIT: version 2.85 booting | 16:23 |
| ZenithDK | INIT: /etc/inittab[1]: missing id field | 16:23 |
| ZenithDK | INIT: /etc/inittab[2]: missing id field | 16:23 |
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| ZenithDK | and as it is quite empty, I'm not surprised :) | 16:23 |
| ZenithDK | part: sorry, I don't understand that question? what do you mean? | 16:24 |
| part | is this on the rootfs? as in, the device flashable image, and not the tarball which is meant to be used with scratchbox? | 16:24 |
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| suihkulokki | ZenithDK: ..have you read the inittab man page? have you compared the old and new inittab files? | 16:24 |
| part | zenithDK: I'm just curious to learn what you were doing with the rootfs on a non-n800 device | 16:24 |
| ZenithDK | this is from the tarball, yes, and yes, I just realized that I need scratchbox installed | 16:24 |
| ZenithDK | arh, we have a OMAP Starter Kit 5912 | 16:25 |
| ZenithDK | we used a rootfs from openembedded previously I think | 16:25 |
| ZenithDK | we are mainly using it as a crash-and-burn system, which gets frequent lockups and such :) | 16:25 |
| ZenithDK | due to our perilious (sp?) coding :) | 16:26 |
| part | not that much different from the n800 then ;) | 16:26 |
| ZenithDK | heh, guess not ;) | 16:26 |
| ZenithDK | we are 4 university students in Denmark doing various stuff with the OMAP, it's quite nice to have such a device :) | 16:27 |
| part | zenithDK: the rootstrap tarball isn't that useful without scratchbox, but the rootfs probably has a working inittab | 16:27 |
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| ZenithDK | we also have an LCD for it, but maemo-1.1 did not look good on a 640x480 screen :) | 16:27 |
| axique | Hi...would anyone tell me in which tar.gz packacke the clock application+clockapplet is? I don't find it. Thanks | 16:28 |
| part | zenithDK: not surprising | 16:28 |
| suihkulokki | ZenithDK: you said that old rootfs worked fine. did you compare the contents of the /etc/inittab there to the inittab of new rootstrap...? | 16:28 |
| ZenithDK | suihkulokki: no, but I'll do that now | 16:29 |
| part | axique: I don't think it's available in a tarball | 16:29 |
| ZenithDK | suihkulokki: they are wastly different, the 3.0 one is as good as empty | 16:29 |
| ZenithDK | but as I said, I "forgot" to install scratchbox, so hardly surprising | 16:30 |
| axique | part: thanks...even if I didn't want to hear this answer.. | 16:30 |
| part | zenithDK: but scratchbox isn't meant to be run on a device... | 16:31 |
| ZenithDK | part: okay, I thought that installing scratchbox and then putting the maemo-3.0 rootfs on top would give me a working install? | 16:33 |
| part | zenithDK: you are using the rootstrap, which is meant to be used in scratchbox. If you want a rootfs, you should get that instead | 16:34 |
| part | zenithDK: I just downloaded the rootfs tarball, and it includes a non-empty inittab | 16:35 |
| ssvb | kkito: not yet, I experimentad with framebuffer based video output on N800 for mplayer on the last weekend, it mostly works now, but I still needs some polishing and testing | 16:36 |
| kkito | ssvb, it runs faster than using xv? | 16:36 |
| ssvb | kkito: s/I/it | 16:36 |
| ZenithDK | part: I thought it was, but the other guy from the group might have made a small mistake | 16:37 |
| ZenithDK | he was pretty tired today :P | 16:37 |
| ssvb | kkito: as for scaling, looks like there are some unexpected problems with dynamically generated code on N800 (probably cache coherency issues), it will take a bit more time to get working | 16:37 |
| part | zenithDK: I got the rootfs from http://maemo.org/downloads/d1.php | 16:38 |
| ZenithDK | part: already downloaded it :) but thanks | 16:38 |
| ZenithDK | testing it now | 16:38 |
| ssvb | kkito: no, it is not faster, but it seems to be a bit more reliable and does not lock up on video playback | 16:39 |
| kkito | ssvb, well nice to know that someone is working on it :) | 16:39 |
| ZenithDK | oh, and the screen is 240x320, not double that :) | 16:39 |
| part | zenithDK: ouch | 16:40 |
| kkito | ssvb, did you try to program the dsp? | 16:40 |
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| kkito | n800 is using the dsp gateway, http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net/pub/index.php , i dont know if someone try to program something with it.... | 16:43 |
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| ssvb | kkito: no, I did not try it yet. Seems like my todo list is only getting larger with the current amount of free time I have for maemo related development :-/ | 16:44 |
| ssvb | kkito: thanks, I know about dspgateway, I even have all the docs and the toolchain downloaded, the only problam is free time | 16:46 |
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| kkito | ssvb, eh :) dont worry your work is appreciated here! :D | 16:47 |
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| kkito | ssvb, did you look to the /dev/dsptask? there are some device files there, are that files dsp tasks? | 16:49 |
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| Tak | hmm - the dsp gateway site doesn't list the omap 2420... | 16:51 |
| Tak | oh, but it does in the faq, nm | 16:52 |
| kkito | Tak, the 2420 is supported, it uses the old c55x dsp | 16:53 |
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| Tak | so I see now | 16:53 |
| kkito | but we want to program the IVA and the powerVR ! | 16:54 |
| kkito | not old hard! | 16:54 |
| Tak | hah - I'd be happy with a dsp task for nes audio | 16:54 |
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| Tak | btw, I've got the sound flawless on the n800 now | 16:54 |
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| kkito | Tak, perhaps you may want to try to port another nes emu with arm optimitzations | 16:55 |
| Tak | well - all the ones I've seen that have been arm-optimized have a large subset of games that they won't emulate | 16:56 |
| Tak | imo it's better to have good emulation at near-perfect speed than bad emulation at blazing speed | 16:56 |
| tzz | ssvb: Nokia should be paying you at this point. The work you do is doubtless contributing to the N800 popularity and was one of the big reasons why I upgraded | 16:57 |
| ssvb | tzz: actually I have not done anything finished and usable for N800 yet, so praising me is too early :) | 16:59 |
| Streg | actually it would be a great marketing scheme and a boot to the developer community if the would pay up like 10ke/month to be shared among the the top contriburtors in the communtiy | 17:00 |
| Tak | I dunno - didn't work so well for debian | 17:01 |
| Streg | haven't heard about that. | 17:01 |
| Tak | some people pooled money to pay some of the devs to get etch(?) released sooner | 17:01 |
| Tak | a lot of the devs that didn't get paid got snippy about it, and it ended up being a mess | 17:02 |
| Streg | bugger | 17:02 |
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| tzz | ssvb: the work you have done for the 770 counts too, I'd say | 17:05 |
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| tzz | tak: sure, I mean Nokia should actually hire ssvb, not send him a valentine's day card with money :) | 17:06 |
| Tak | I agree - however, moving to helsinki appears to be a requirement | 17:06 |
| tzz | tak: or INDT in Brazil :) | 17:07 |
| tzz | (I think they are in Brazil) | 17:07 |
| Tak | yeah - I wonder what city | 17:08 |
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| tzz | anyone else annoyed that the new Nokia E90 doesn't run ITOS 2007? :) | 17:09 |
| kkito | tzz, what os runs the E90? | 17:12 |
| kkito | symbian? | 17:12 |
| tzz | S60 as usual | 17:14 |
| tzz | all the Nokia smartphones run S60 at this point | 17:14 |
| tzz | it's not a bad OS, I just wish I had Maemo on a nice device with a keyboard like the E90 | 17:14 |
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| tzz | OTOH, it's over $1000, so perhaps it's better that I am not lusting after it | 17:15 |
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| Tak | hmm, looks like indt is in brasilia and manaus | 17:20 |
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| kkito | http://tree.celinuxforum.org/pubwiki/moin.cgi/JapanTechnicalJamboree6?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=DSPGateway_Celf_Jamboree6.ppt <- document from nokia explaining how to use the dsp on the 770 and some pseudocode... i dont know if you knew it | 17:27 |
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| Tak | kkito: nice, thanks | 17:28 |
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| kkito | well in the doc they says: Future Work: OMAP2420 support (including IVA support) | 17:31 |
| kkito | :D | 17:31 |
| X-Fade | kkito: http://komalshah.blogspot.com/ | 17:33 |
| X-Fade | kkito: You might find that interesting.. | 17:33 |
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| Veggen | but, what's the best phone for using together with a N800? I need a new phone very soon. | 17:35 |
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| Veggen | Ideally, I think I'd like 3Gs extended data capacity but don't need that many features :) | 17:35 |
| kkito | X-Fade, thanks I am reading the blog...:) | 17:36 |
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| Tak | you think anyone@nokia would care if I rehosted that ppt (on garage) as a pdf? | 17:37 |
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| kkito | Tak, i dont know :/ but nokia people really look at garage or planet maemo etc? | 17:44 |
| * Tak shrugs | 17:45 | |
| Tak | it's more that I don't want to do it if they don't want me to | 17:45 |
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| everaldo | MDK, ping | 19:07 |
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| tko | "On developer support, Nokia's record is also quite good, especially compared to some other efforts. This applies particularly to the area of documentation. The maemo site has some of the best developer documents of any open source project I've seen, and in some ways approaches the quality of documentation for the best proprietary products." | 19:16 |
| koen | give me some of that shit he's smoking | 19:16 |
| chx | Nokia E90. Similar resolution. Same CPU. Anyone though on putting Maemo on it? | 19:17 |
| tko | koen, here: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8033409446.html | 19:17 |
| zuh | tko: heh, that's almost as good as giving Nokia credit for a "hardware easter egg" ;) | 19:17 |
| fish_ | does someone tried to port zenity to maemo? or something like that? | 19:17 |
| tigert | fish, not aware of it, but i would love to see it also | 19:18 |
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| ajturner | Maemo does have good docs - when compared to most o/s projects:) | 19:18 |
| tigert | rtfs! | 19:19 |
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| sp3000 | there are /some/ good docs | 19:19 |
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| fish_ | tigert: well.. the problem is that i'm too stupid to port something like that.. thats because i want zenity so i can write my stuff in sh ;) | 19:20 |
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| fish_ | s/because/why/ ehh.. whatever | 19:20 |
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| fish_ | i'm to stupid for english too i guess | 19:20 |
| fish_ | ;) | 19:20 |
| * mgedmin is trying to compile zenity for fish_ now | 19:21 | |
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| tko | fish_, I'd imagine anyone mastering clueful copypasting could extend zenity for hildon | 19:21 |
| tigert | fish, exactly my reason too =) | 19:21 |
| robtaylor | hey, what kind of touchscreen do the 770/800 have? | 19:22 |
| tko | all it basically does is mapping --options to gtk_do_foo() and printing something to stdout as return value | 19:22 |
| tko | robtaylor, big one? | 19:22 |
| ajturner | single-touch | 19:22 |
| mgedmin | missing build deps... | 19:22 |
| robtaylor | tko: 7 wire resistive? | 19:22 |
| tko | robtaylor, oh, my understanding of touchscreens is on the level of 'a screen you can touch' | 19:22 |
| robtaylor | heh :) | 19:23 |
| fish_ | mgedmin: well, so far i got too | 19:23 |
| robtaylor | tko: i was just pondering on the maths for detecting finger versus stylus | 19:23 |
| tko | robtaylor, pressure | 19:24 |
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| tigert | ri tested maemopad+ today again. wow. | 19:25 |
| robtaylor | ah yeah, must be 7 wire resistive then | 19:25 |
| tigert | the pressure support, while crude due to the bad touchscreen, is still sweet | 19:25 |
| tigert | s/ri/I/ | 19:26 |
| ajturner | btw - what does everyone use for PIM? and sync? GPESync & GPE-calendar? | 19:26 |
| tigert | i hate pim | 19:26 |
| tigert | just like email :) | 19:26 |
| tigert | i wish google cal worked | 19:26 |
| robster | tigert: plankton is sweet ;-) | 19:26 |
| ajturner | well, was just discussing this weekend - I had a palm in '95 that did PIM well, now in 2007 I'm still wanting for a good, mobile information manager | 19:26 |
| ajturner | tigert - I thought you hated email? | 19:26 |
| ajturner | :) | 19:26 |
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| VRe | ajturner: Welcome to the club | 19:27 |
| ajturner | well, and the N800/770 should be *really great* at it | 19:28 |
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| ajturner | not to mention auto-routing to calendar events and contacts ;) | 19:28 |
| VRe | ajturner: Actually the most I'm afraid that these new gizmos will run out of the battery like *ziiip* .. good olde palm lasted for few weeks | 19:28 |
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| tigert | ajturner, yes. that too :) | 19:31 |
| robtaylor | tigert: oh yeah, kudos on plankton, its made me able to use my N800 without being embaressed at the awful default themes | 19:32 |
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| ajturner | VRe - batt time is nice | 19:32 |
| mgedmin | they aren't awful | 19:32 |
| robtaylor | tigert: what was your solution to the 16k dithering problem in the end? | 19:32 |
| * mgedmin goes to search for a .deb of plankton anyway | 19:32 | |
| tigert | covert -colors 32000 -dither | 19:33 |
| ajturner | so I guess the answer is no one has a good PIM setup for their tablet? | 19:33 |
| tigert | convert even :) | 19:33 |
| robtaylor | tigert: hah. cool | 19:34 |
| tigert | theres "dates" and gpe-calendar | 19:34 |
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| ajturner | is anyone here using either? | 19:37 |
| Andy80 | hi | 19:38 |
| Tak | I recently switched from dates to gpe-cal | 19:38 |
| * florian knows people developing these ;) | 19:38 | |
| ajturner | well, I know I actually rarely use the things I develop - it's weird like that | 19:38 |
| florian | I guess its time for new packages soon :-) | 19:38 |
| ajturner | Tak - why did you switch? | 19:38 |
| koen | florian: no it's time for a release | 19:38 |
| ajturner | what do you think about them both? | 19:38 |
| florian | koen: that's what i meant :-) | 19:39 |
| florian | koen: neal started to work on this... | 19:39 |
| Tak | ajturner: I switched because dates wouldn't let me easily import an ics file | 19:39 |
| ajturner | Tak, can you link to an external ICS? | 19:39 |
| ajturner | I think last time I checked, it was just import | 19:40 |
| Tak | whereas, with gpe-calendar, I can import different ones, merge them into existing calendars, or keep them separate | 19:40 |
| Tak | tbh, I haven't tried linking to an external ics | 19:40 |
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| ajturner | yeah, see - need to at least bring in external, and syncing would be sweet | 19:41 |
| tigert | yea. we desperately need online store for all our data. | 19:42 |
| maddler | oh... heya florian! :D | 19:42 |
| ajturner | tigert - online storage? | 19:42 |
| tigert | it makes no sense to scatter your life on different bits of flash memory | 19:42 |
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| florian | hi maddler | 19:42 |
| ajturner | tigert - agreed 100% | 19:43 |
| tigert | it should be on a personal datastore. | 19:43 |
| ajturner | gpe uses sqlite I believe? | 19:43 |
| florian | yes | 19:43 |
| tigert | like google docs | 19:43 |
| ajturner | they at least that could/should be sync-able | 19:43 |
| tigert | so you can really share and collaborate | 19:43 |
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| ajturner | or use a service with a simple API | 19:43 |
| ajturner | backpack/gcal/30boxes | 19:44 |
| [mbm] | tigert: isn't that providing a central point of failure? | 19:44 |
| ajturner | mbm - no | 19:44 |
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| ajturner | in fact the opposite | 19:44 |
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| ajturner | by syncing - you can restore if lost | 19:45 |
| ajturner | plus you have backups | 19:45 |
| ajturner | but right now you probably have them scattered and not backed up | 19:45 |
| [mbm] | ah thought the intention was actually running it live from the central datastore, not syncing it | 19:45 |
| ajturner | mbm - well, you would probably want to sync, so you can use offline | 19:45 |
| [mbm] | right | 19:46 |
| robtaylor | tigert: whatabout running sync4j on a personal server? | 19:46 |
| part | storing all your personal data on some corporate system seems like a really bad idea to me | 19:46 |
| ajturner | robtayler - have you setup sync4j before? | 19:46 |
| ajturner | part - "corporate system"? | 19:46 |
| part | 19:46 | |
| ajturner | and why is that necessarily a bad idea? | 19:47 |
| ajturner | there is the q of privacy | 19:47 |
| ajturner | but I use gcal/gmail/google search, they know everything about me | 19:47 |
| ajturner | but I'm also fairly sure it's safe | 19:47 |
| tigert | part. you could of course run your own server | 19:47 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: no, never lookedat it | 19:47 |
| tigert | i am talking about the principle | 19:47 |
| ajturner | robtayler - great in theory, PITA in practice | 19:47 |
| maddler | Off Topic: I'd need something to convert DOCs to HTML | 19:48 |
| maddler | any clue? | 19:48 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: hmm, interesting | 19:48 |
| tigert | see bergie.iki.fi | 19:48 |
| ajturner | but yeah, sync4j and teh entire sync standard is a hopeful thing | 19:48 |
| part | tigert: yes, I agree on the principle, it's just that I don't see google as the storage for all my personal data | 19:48 |
| ajturner | and again - been around for years | 19:48 |
| tigert | and his blog about flickr | 19:48 |
| koen | maddler: abiword 2.5? | 19:48 |
| maddler | koen: from commandline... | 19:48 |
| koen | maddler: that has a batch convert option on the commandline | 19:48 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: what were the problems you'vefound? | 19:48 |
| [mbm] | maddler: openoffice? wordview? | 19:48 |
| maddler | hmmmmmmm.... | 19:49 |
| ajturner | just couldn't get it running and sync | 19:49 |
| maddler | koen: lemme see... | 19:49 |
| ajturner | this was 2 years ago - which my mobile phone and clients | 19:49 |
| tigert | part, most people trust their isp or google quite lot. still, use open api's so you can use your own store | 19:49 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: mm. i might give it a try then, hopefully some progress will have been made =) | 19:49 |
| koen | maddler: http://uwog.net/news/?p=62 | 19:49 |
| ajturner | robtaylor - great project though for someone to take off with - get a good howto running all this sync stuff together :) | 19:49 |
| [mbm] | I have more trust in a tor exit node than I have in my isp | 19:49 |
| ajturner | robtaylor - http://www.funambol.com/opensource/ | 19:49 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: yeah, already doenloading ;) | 19:50 |
| maddler | koen: great!!! | 19:50 |
| ajturner | IMO - when PIM is easy & integrated, then N800 can think about being mainstream :) | 19:50 |
| [mbm] | ajturner: I think they need better power management or a bigger battery first | 19:51 |
| ajturner | mbm - nope | 19:51 |
| * florian doesn't think that | 19:52 | |
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| robtaylor | [mbm]: well consider how much better the N800 is than the 770, and thats with more powerful hardware | 19:53 |
| maddler | koen: works! not perfect, but is something anyhow... :)\ | 19:54 |
| [mbm] | robtaylor: didn't say it wasn't; just saying that it still has a long way to go | 19:54 |
| robtaylor | [mbm]: once oppoints stablilise in linux, it should get better too :) | 19:54 |
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| [mbm] | it's the old argument of "this is the year for linux deskops" that we've been hearing for the last 10 years | 19:55 |
| ajturner | mbm - true | 19:55 |
| robtaylor | [mbm]: well, the percentage points go up every year | 19:55 |
| robtaylor | so in some sense, its true | 19:55 |
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| ajturner | I never think "linux mainstream desktop" will really happen :) | 19:55 |
| koen | 10x10! | 19:55 |
| [mbm] | robtaylor: sure things improve, but the engineers are so blindsighted that they forget it still isn't to the point og the genral consumer | 19:56 |
| robtaylor | koen: yeah, i think that was a bit wishful thinking | 19:56 |
| ajturner | but still - a comment I frequently hear about the N800/770 and Pepperpad, et al - is that they say "$400 for just getting the web?" | 19:56 |
| robtaylor | [mbm]: yeah, but the way to the consumer os through business | 19:56 |
| [mbm] | ajturner: yeah, it's hard to explain what they are | 19:56 |
| robtaylor | [mbm]: and i've heard of lot of windows shops that are getting jittery cos their clients are moving over to linux | 19:57 |
| ajturner | well, I think people would like to see they can sync their PIM data | 19:57 |
| [mbm] | "what's that?" "it's an internet tablet" "oh, so you websurf on it? *yawn*" .. | 19:57 |
| bipolar | Are there any PC images (like for qemu or vmware) of Maemo? I'd like to play with the software while I wait for my n800 to arive :) | 19:57 |
| koen | ajturner: largely because people don't realise the add-on software is free (as in beer) | 19:57 |
| ajturner | koen - well, not that, it's not easy to do | 19:57 |
| Tak | [mbm]: and then you go back to watching lotr ... | 19:58 |
| [mbm] | works slightly better if you tell them it's a portable linux computer | 19:58 |
| ajturner | the fact that you have to config repositories just put it out for most users | 19:58 |
| Jaffa | bipolar: there's a VMware development image, and keesj has put together a qemu one for baselining mud development | 19:58 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: i think thats a false argument | 19:58 |
| Tak | ajturner: you don't have to with .install ... | 19:58 |
| koen | ajturner: that's just a fault from nokia, they could have easily added the extras repo by default | 19:58 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: most users are used to going to bebsites, downloading exexs and rebooting their machines for new software | 19:58 |
| [mbm] | koen: true, but then it becomes a qa problem | 19:58 |
| ajturner | robtaylor - speaking about what I see from people I show - they're geeks, but that isn't apparent/appealing to them | 19:59 |
| ajturner | koen - agreed that it could be an easy sol'n | 19:59 |
| bipolar | Jaffa: cool. Do you have a link handy? I searched the wiki in vain. | 19:59 |
| ajturner | app mgr could pull list of repos and show them or automatically add them when they're approved | 19:59 |
| Jaffa | bipolar: google "maemo vmware" | 19:59 |
| robtaylor | ajturner: a nice helper filetype that adds a repo in to the app installer would be a nice touch though | 19:59 |
| roope | I don't really know about N800 for PIM. Would you actually do it with that device? | 19:59 |
| roope | I mean seriously. | 20:00 |
| ajturner | my point is N800 - as h/w - is great, it just needs software/usability addressing | 20:00 |
| Jaffa | bipolar: sorry, don't have it to hand and I'm currently ill with a viral infection so not feeling 100% :-/ | 20:00 |
| robtaylor | with suitable warnings, of course | 20:00 |
| Jaffa | robtaylor: that already exists | 20:00 |
| ajturner | roope - not "primary", but if I'm out and about with it, I feel silly that it doesn't have that | 20:00 |
| roope | People that do PIM already have their devices and system to do PIM with. I do it with my phone and pc outlook. | 20:00 |
| Tak | robtaylor: yeah! they could call it .install! | 20:00 |
| ajturner | I *have* to take my phone/laptop too | 20:00 |
| [mbm] | there's still the issue of keyboard input | 20:00 |
| [mbm] | you basically need a bluetooth keyboard to do much typing | 20:00 |
| bipolar | Jaffa: no prob... btw, I first reaction to "viral infection" was to ask why you're running windows... I had to think about it a few sec... :P | 20:00 |
| roope | And PIM still is a quite marginal use case. | 20:01 |
| roope | We've had PDA's for over 10 years and they really went nowhere. | 20:01 |
| bipolar | Jaffa: hope you feel better soon :) | 20:01 |
| roope | And they were all about PIM. pim this, pim that. | 20:01 |
| Jaffa | roope: I disagree, I hate my phone for PIM stuff, and since stopping using my Psion I've been struggling without a good PIM. People keep saying "Phones do PIM". No, phone do PIM *badly*. Why would the limitations that make phones crap for web browsing, not apply to them doing PIM functionality? | 20:01 |
| [mbm] | handwiring recongnition sucks, mini keyboard is only good for hunt and peck with the stylus and the onscreen keyboard obscures whatever you're typing into | 20:01 |
| roope | N800 would suck at pim anyway, because there's no keyboard. | 20:02 |
| ajturner | roope - disagreed, for one, info retrieval would be gerat | 20:02 |
| Jaffa | Thumb keyboard's pretty good. Hell, even basic synchronisation with some upstream server would do. Most of the data entry can be on a PC but for scheduling dentist appointments etc. it'd be useful to enter the one small thing. | 20:02 |
| ajturner | 2) I don't mind the onscreen kbd and 3) I have a bt one-handed kbd | 20:02 |
| roope | What are you using for PIM right now? | 20:02 |
| ajturner | gcal/ical/addressbook/nokia 6600 | 20:03 |
| ajturner | all syncd | 20:03 |
| [mbm] | sure, if you already had your calendar and appointments setup online the tablet is a decent way to view em | 20:03 |
| ajturner | so, for PIM - N800 should sync to my mac or gcal | 20:03 |
| roope | PIM is nice, but it's nowhere near a meanstream use case like web browsing. | 20:03 |
| roope | "Everyone" browses the web, but like... 10% of people really do pim. | 20:03 |
| [mbm] | but try writing an email reply that's more than a sentance using the tablet | 20:03 |
| tigert | i see the n800-like devices more as portable windows to your online presence or self | 20:03 |
| roope | and out of those, most wouldn't start doing PIM with the tablet anyway. | 20:04 |
| Jaffa | [mbm]/tigert: that's fine, but you can't always get a connection - hence the need for offline viewers :) | 20:04 |
| [mbm] | the n800 is a desktop widget | 20:04 |
| [mbm] | just happens to be portable | 20:04 |
| roope | Plus doing people is really ... it requires a lot of work. The application work, synchonization etc. is really a lot of work. | 20:04 |
| Jaffa | roope: and how many people do RSS feeds in the general populace? | 20:04 |
| roope | Nokia already has communicator as the pim device. | 20:04 |
| Jaffa | roope: wouldn't disagree with that. | 20:04 |
| ajturner | roope - I agree, it is difficult for devs | 20:04 |
| ajturner | but needs to be easy for users | 20:05 |
| Jaffa | But that shouldn't mean it should be discounted. | 20:05 |
| roope | They just published the new E90 for it. | 20:05 |
| tigert | i cannot care less for its offline storage. | 20:05 |
| roope | Well, yes and no. Nokia as a company... If e90 already does pim, perhaps the tablet should try to do stuff that the Symbian devices are not doing so well. | 20:05 |
| roope | Instead of spending limited resources duplicating the same features. | 20:05 |
| tigert | internet will be ubiquituous soon anyway for us | 20:05 |
| tigert | like hapened to phones | 20:06 |
| Jaffa | tigert: maybe true in Finland, but that's not true on trains - for example - in the UK. A usecase for business users in the UK too. | 20:06 |
| roope | Bad PIM would suck just as bad as no PIM, plus it would suck in a way that then we're not doing something else. | 20:06 |
| Jaffa | e.g. you have no mobile phone coverage => no Internet access at all. | 20:06 |
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| ajturner | roope - there is already mediocre/bad pim | 20:07 |
| ajturner | I was hoping someone looked at/uses better pim | 20:07 |
| roope | I guess I'm also saying that if the E series has like ... n people and m money doing PIM, maemo developers really cannot compete with that. | 20:08 |
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| roope | So it's perhaps better to try to focus on new areas. | 20:09 |
| roope | Like web 2.0 (whatever you mean by it) etc. | 20:09 |
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| roope | Of course, through things like using google calendar etc. other online things, you can eventually start to achieve the same use cases as through more traditional offline PIM. | 20:11 |
| roope | When web services develop sufficiently, then "us" do not need to develop these serviecs, we just have a web client that accesses these. developed by google etc. | 20:12 |
| ajturner | well, N800 can be Web3.0 | 20:12 |
| roope | And I'm quite sure that will happen pretty quickly. | 20:12 |
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| ajturner | where that implies being able to deploy an "app" to the web or to a machine | 20:12 |
| roope | Yeah. | 20:12 |
| ajturner | so I can run, say, GCal locally on my device | 20:12 |
| roope | So instead of "doing pim" we need to be ready with a deviec that can access pim web services. in the best manner possible. | 20:13 |
| roope | since pim is so heavily dependant on synchronization anyway, so a web service can handle that much better. | 20:13 |
| tigert | jaffa, is cellphone coverage good there? | 20:14 |
| tigert | jaffa, i am not saying we are there now. but in 5 years it can be very different | 20:15 |
| roope | I kind of see that the age of heavy local apps is dying for many functions. sevices develop at an increasingly fast speed. | 20:15 |
| roope | doing a local heavy pim app for 2 years will make it obsolete when it is finally released. compared to a constantly developing web service. | 20:15 |
| tigert | also, like roope said, a LOT of new stuff is happening on the web browser space | 20:15 |
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| tigert | it makes sense to have awesome portable web tablet | 20:16 |
| roope | Of course we're not there yet, but. :) | 20:16 |
| tigert | that gives you all those things on the go | 20:16 |
| tigert | instead of something like Evolution mail, which was awesome 4 years ago, now i enjoy gmail more | 20:17 |
| roope | Yeah. When they come up with a new feature for gmail, it's in my hands the next day. | 20:17 |
| roope | With no upgrades or hassles. | 20:17 |
| tigert | lets leverage the huge innovation and effort that is on the web, its silly to try to duplicate it | 20:17 |
| tigert | web makes it very fast to do collaborative services etc. that is why we should interface with them | 20:18 |
| tigert | same applies to the desktop linux | 20:19 |
| ajturner | hrm, wonder if can run apache/python server on the N800 | 20:19 |
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| tigert | the operating system is becoming obsolete as more things communicate though rss and other api's | 20:19 |
| ajturner | or a rails app :) though that may be a little heavy | 20:20 |
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| tigert | ajturner, bergie is putting midgard on it :) | 20:20 |
| ajturner | tigert - well, RSS/Api's are just different IPC mechanisms | 20:20 |
| ajturner | he is? | 20:20 |
| ajturner | well, that's C++, able to run faster | 20:20 |
| ajturner | I have yet to instll ruby on my n800 | 20:20 |
| tigert | yea, he was thinkng of it :) | 20:20 |
| tigert | that would be one way of offline mode btw | 20:20 |
| tigert | since it can replicate over the net to another site | 20:21 |
| ajturner | right | 20:21 |
| ajturner | that's the 3.0 part | 20:21 |
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| tigert | but this is a big shift of mindset | 20:22 |
| tigert | out of "sync my calendar to my device" to "give me my internet data on the commuter train" | 20:22 |
| tigert | since when the data is on the net, it an be shared and colaboration can happen between mobile and desktop users | 20:23 |
| ajturner | wonder how bergie is handling syncing the local db to the online one | 20:23 |
| tigert | in realtime. sure it takes sme time to go there, but on some cases it works already | 20:23 |
| tigert | irc + screen over ssh is one example actually | 20:24 |
| tigert | while we have been discussing this, | 20:24 |
| ajturner | ah, so he doesn't envision an offline version? | 20:24 |
| tigert | i have travelled from the nokia office to home via train, now i am about to wipe and take the dogs out :) | 20:25 |
| tigert | and our collaboration was never interrupted | 20:25 |
| tigert | ;) | 20:25 |
| ajturner | well, internet access isn't ubiquitous | 20:25 |
| ajturner | and it's also slow-to establish, when compared to loading local data | 20:25 |
| roope | it will be nearly, and quite soon. | 20:26 |
| tigert | it isnt. but it can very well become so | 20:26 |
| ajturner | so when I open my N800 and say, want to check my calendar, to pull it off the web may take 0.5-2 minutes | 20:26 |
| tigert | we laughed at cellphones too... | 20:26 |
| roope | It's good to already prepare for it, assume it is. | 20:26 |
| roope | Because there is no real technical reason why it one day wouldn't be. | 20:26 |
| ajturner | well, europe has the benefit of being dense | 20:26 |
| ajturner | the US is not as dense, so ubiquity is more difficult | 20:27 |
| roope | With things like wimax etc. | 20:27 |
| ajturner | not saying it won't - just further out | 20:27 |
| roope | 5 years, i would say. | 20:27 |
| ajturner | roope - right, but 5 yrs is a long time to wait to check my calendar ;) | 20:27 |
| roope | Well, developing a good pim would take 5 years. :) | 20:27 |
| garrett | there's nothing interesting happening for 5 years anyway. (: | 20:28 |
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| ajturner | roope - so just don't do anything for now ;) | 20:28 |
| ajturner | as garrett purports | 20:28 |
| Streg | PIM is too unsexy, nobody cares. For example, what are the real alternatives to m$ outlook in windows enviroment? | 20:29 |
| roope | I think now is the time to develop standards and concepts and features that will then rule once this is a reality. | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | roope: isn't that what Chandler did a few years ago? | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | developed standards/concepts/features/specs/whatever? | 20:30 |
| ajturner | yeah, there *are* standards out there | 20:30 |
| ajturner | syncml is well supported | 20:30 |
| roope | There are yes, for certain things. | 20:30 |
| roope | But there's more to do. Like location services. | 20:30 |
| ajturner | roope - more than what? than just PIM? | 20:31 |
| ajturner | sure, not saying PIM is the only thing to do - LBS is actually my cup o' tea | 20:31 |
| ajturner | ergo my asking for someone that's a PIM-dev/user fan | 20:31 |
| Tak | Streg: depends what you want | 20:31 |
| roope | As I said, I think we should focus on support and UI and standards for online web services. One such web service can provide PIM functions to the device user. | 20:32 |
| Tak | the *only* thing thunderbird+lightning doesn't do that outlook does is the shared-calendar-group-masturbation thing that middle managers like to indulge in for some reason | 20:32 |
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| Streg | tak: can you share that calendar with any device? | 20:32 |
| ajturner | Tak - is lightning usable ? | 20:33 |
| Tak | I'm using it for my intraoffice calendaring | 20:33 |
| Streg | tak: I mean import and export. | 20:33 |
| ajturner | Streg Tak - yeah, that was my original q - sync to N800 | 20:33 |
| Tak | you can export it, and you can publish via webdav | 20:34 |
| Tak | probably more, but that's what I see with one right-click | 20:34 |
| Streg | Well the problem is, that you can "share" you lightning/sunbird calendar, but I haven't found a way to import entries automatically from other devices/services | 20:35 |
| Tak | you can import ics | 20:36 |
| Streg | I think sunbird/lightning will evntually be a great application like tb and firefox, but my point really is, that it's a recent endeavour. | 20:37 |
| Tak | and you can use one on the network (either published ics or caldav) | 20:37 |
| Streg | It's somehow interesting, that people are willing to work with old Commodores to create astounding visual effects even today just for the kick of it, but managing you daily life is just boring :) | 20:39 |
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| noir | hi | 20:43 |
| Tak | lightning displaying a remotely stored google calendar event: http://flickr.com/photos/79742524@N00/388225225/ | 20:43 |
| Streg | and there seems to be a syncml-plugin fom tb/lightning in sf http://sourceforge.net/projects/sync4jmozilla/ | 20:44 |
| Streg | seems like we're getting somewhere | 20:44 |
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| Streg | I've been using http://www.scheduleworld.com/ works with syncml (mobiles/outlook), google calendar etc. | 20:46 |
| ajturner | interesting Streg | 20:46 |
| ajturner | I just starting using SpanningSync to get Gcal to my iCal | 20:46 |
| ajturner | i like the *style* of ScheduleWorld - very... original | 20:47 |
| Streg | ajturner:well I don't use it for anythin else than a syncml server | 20:47 |
| Streg | outlook and my mobile syncs there. | 20:48 |
| ajturner | nice | 20:48 |
| MDK | everaldo: pong | 20:48 |
| ajturner | so yeah, just need GPE/Dates to do syncml! :) | 20:48 |
| everaldo | MDK, prv | 20:49 |
| Streg | ajturner: true, but I think we have to code it ourselves, it's too tedious for normal people :) | 20:50 |
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| tigert | ajturner, remember how palms had the journal feature for diaries? | 20:51 |
| tigert | nowadays nobody wants that | 20:51 |
| tigert | everyone understands the idea of blogs | 20:51 |
| bipolar | On the syncing front, there is also a connector for Funambol (open source syncml server) for Groupdav servers (Opengroupware, Citadel). So syncml support for mobile PIM apps would open up a whole lot of options. | 20:51 |
| tigert | i think it explains some of this idea i am trying to share :) | 20:52 |
| ocnarfidW | hot mama. | 20:53 |
| ocnarfidW | paired mac keyboard to N800 is sexy. | 20:53 |
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| ajturner | tigert - maemoblog is diaries by another name | 20:55 |
| ajturner | the functionality is still desired :) | 20:55 |
| ajturner | you have a local client that publishes/syncs data online | 20:56 |
| ajturner | the client is still local | 20:56 |
| tzz | ocnarfidW: you and nomis should talk about reversed IRC handles... I use the Apple BT keyboard too, it's very comfortable but not portable at all. | 20:56 |
| [mbm] | diary sounds so teenage girlish | 20:57 |
| ocnarfidW | Yea. I may spring for one of those portable ones, first I want to get the hang of using the screen keyboard thou. | 20:57 |
| tzz | mbm: so you like "captain's log" better? :) | 20:57 |
| VRe | I would like to have one good cal on the IT, and then I could maybe sync it with my phone so if the IT looses battery I can still check my phone.. | 20:58 |
| [mbm] | tzz: um yeah, let me put on my startrek pjs :P | 20:58 |
| tigert | aj, yes. local clients give you a better ui than todays web tech | 20:58 |
| tigert | but i think we should focus on two things | 20:59 |
| VRe | And webstuff .. it's just too unreliable - I can't be sure I can always get to my calendar if it's just online | 20:59 |
| tigert | 1) making web as good as possible | 20:59 |
| tigert | 2) aking the biggest ideas for native apps (blogging, podcast viewing etc) | 20:59 |
| * [mbm] goes to see what amazon has for portable bluetooth keyboards | 21:00 | |
| Streg | I would like to ge my N800 back from the service, 2 weeks now - they are "replacing" it. Oh, those corporate structures | 21:00 |
| tigert | taking even | 21:00 |
| garrett | offline web stuff is nice | 21:00 |
| tigert | this way we might be able to enable a lot of cool things | 21:00 |
| garrett | tigert: video publishing right from the N800 would be cool | 21:00 |
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| [mbm] | garrett: squid + 4G SD card for cache? | 21:00 |
| tigert | for example | 21:00 |
| garrett | for quick and simple videoblogs | 21:00 |
| garrett | [mbm]: heh | 21:00 |
| tigert | photos we can do already | 21:01 |
| garrett | [mbm]: I was thinking offline support for webapps | 21:01 |
| garrett | tigert: oh? news to me | 21:01 |
| garrett | tigert: right now, only video conferencing works for us non-Nokia people (; | 21:01 |
| tigert | i mean, upload pics to flickr | 21:01 |
| tigert | from the tablet | 21:01 |
| garrett | yeah, that is good | 21:01 |
| garrett | just need to get a camera that can work with this device to make that work | 21:01 |
| jaebird | anyone have connection problems with GPRS and bluetooth? | 21:02 |
| sxpert | I never got that to work | 21:02 |
| jaebird | I still cannot connect to my ROKR E2 over BT DUN | 21:02 |
| VRe | a | 21:03 |
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| suihkulokki | garrett: do you have a youtube account? try uploading a video using the flash-based quick video capture. | 21:04 |
| tigert | hmm. indeed, culd that work? | 21:05 |
| tigert | could even | 21:05 |
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| garrett | hmm, interesting idea | 21:07 |
| garrett | it would probably pop up vid conf when I'd try | 21:07 |
| suihkulokki | tigert: it should. not that I have I tried nor do I have the device around to try :) | 21:08 |
| tigert | hmm. will need to test! | 21:08 |
| ajturner | were there rumors of a skype client for the N800? | 21:10 |
| ocnarfidW | yes by mid-year. | 21:10 |
| VRe | I wonder if it'll do video with the other skype clients | 21:11 |
| ajturner | VRe- that's my q, b/c right now can only vid chat w/ other N800 users, right? | 21:11 |
| [mbm] | ajturner: there's a pc app on tableteer | 21:12 |
| ajturner | [mbm] - windows? | 21:12 |
| [mbm] | ajturner: probably | 21:13 |
| ajturner | url? | 21:13 |
| Streg | I think you'll have to use the invitation software within N800 | 21:13 |
| Streg | "video call invitaion beta" or something | 21:13 |
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| part | garrett: offline support and webapps don't really mix | 21:22 |
| garrett | it can | 21:22 |
| ajturner | part - disagree, look at the plethora of nice Basecamp clients | 21:23 |
| ajturner | or del.icio.us clients | 21:24 |
| garrett | http://www.drury.net.nz/2007/02/03/firefox3-web-apps-game-changer/ | 21:24 |
| garrett | or Firefox 3 (: | 21:24 |
| [mbm] | ajturner: http://videovoip.tableteer.nokia.com/ | 21:24 |
| ajturner | garrett - well, I haven't run FF3 ye ;) | 21:24 |
| tigert | we just need a bit of time for the next round of web technologies | 21:24 |
| ajturner | sorry garrett, I mean (; | 21:24 |
| part | ajturner: what's basecamp? | 21:24 |
| tigert | a year or two can do a lot | 21:24 |
| garrett | http://www.sitepen.com/blog/2007/01/02/the-dojo-offline-toolkit/ | 21:24 |
| ajturner | tigert - no! the time is now! :) | 21:24 |
| garrett | dojo offline toolkit as well, fwiw | 21:24 |
| tigert | ;) | 21:24 |
| ajturner | part - an online notes/calendar/todo app | 21:25 |
| part | ajturner: the clients sync with some html forms I suppose | 21:25 |
| ajturner | part, ever heard of REST/SOAP/XML-RPC? | 21:25 |
| ajturner | tigert - people are already doing it, offline clients, sync/access online web services with an easy to use protocol. Things like FF3 are nice b/c they're giving a standard, syncable {on,off}-line data store | 21:27 |
| part | ajturner: I assumed that basecamp wouldn't support anything like that | 21:27 |
| garrett | dojo offline toolkit is a web proxy that handles things | 21:27 |
| ajturner | part - ? | 21:27 |
| garrett | and it's open source too | 21:27 |
| ajturner | why? | 21:27 |
| tigert | aj, yeah | 21:27 |
| ajturner | part - basecamp has helped define web2.0 | 21:27 |
| part | eh, that's either really funny or really sad | 21:28 |
| part | not sure | 21:28 |
| ajturner | part - I've lost you | 21:28 |
| part | web2.0 can do that | 21:28 |
| part | and more! | 21:28 |
| tigert | hey, silly marketroids can ruin the name | 21:29 |
| konfoo | web 2.5! | 21:29 |
| tigert | but there is a lot happening | 21:29 |
| part | web2000 | 21:29 |
| * konfoo makes wanking motion | 21:29 | |
| konfoo | i suggest we discuss over a WEBINAR | 21:29 |
| garrett | HEH | 21:30 |
| tigert | nah, lets not get silly | 21:30 |
| garrett | nice | 21:30 |
| tigert | the fact is, a SCARY number of my community contacts have a gmail address these days | 21:30 |
| tigert | say what you want about "web2.0" | 21:31 |
| ajturner | did you see the stats on openmoko - of the 800+ members on the list, like 600+ were gmail | 21:31 |
| konfoo | i detest the term, not the technology | 21:31 |
| tigert | but the web service space and embedded linux is where most interesting things see to happen | 21:31 |
| konfoo | about as much as i detest the use of 'podcast' | 21:31 |
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| ajturner | konfoo - understood, but naming a concept makes it easier to discuss | 21:32 |
| tigert | the term is just silly. so suits have something to write on their powerpoints | 21:32 |
| tigert | and so expensive seminars can be held :) | 21:32 |
| konfoo | yes but the problem i have is that it implies technology has milestones, which it does not. and then the suits/cluebies get carried away | 21:33 |
| robtaylor | ok, this feels like a stupid question: how do i select textin the webbrowser? | 21:33 |
| Tak | tap+drag works for me | 21:33 |
| zuh | robtaylor: By luck | 21:33 |
| konfoo | tigert: exactly lol | 21:33 |
| konfoo | sigh | 21:33 |
| zuh | robtaylor: It's tap-tap-drag | 21:33 |
| robtaylor | zuh: ahh, thanks :) | 21:34 |
| tigert | what is cool about ubuntu for example, is it gives a free platform to these things on any desktop or laptop computer | 21:34 |
| tigert | but the "desktop" is just a small part of all this | 21:34 |
| robtaylor | zuh: i see what you mean 'by luck'... | 21:34 |
| robtaylor | this is unusable | 21:34 |
| zuh | Yes :/ | 21:34 |
| tigert | and seems increasingly smaller whe you look at mainstream | 21:34 |
| tigert | flickr, gmail and calendar etc | 21:35 |
| konfoo | tigert: yes the desktop is only 'big' because microsoft requires it to stay in business | 21:35 |
| tzz | robtaylor: it's the price of drag-to-pan viewports in the web browser, given there is effectively just one mouse button | 21:35 |
| tigert | robtaylor, tripletap-drag =) | 21:35 |
| robtaylor | yep, trying to select some text in the middle of a line is hellish | 21:36 |
| tigert | konfoo, yes. and the community is making it increasingly irrelevant | 21:36 |
| robtaylor | i'd have prefered 'hold down [] and drag' or somesuch | 21:36 |
| * mgedmin wants multitouch | 21:36 | |
| tigert | rob, the pan scroll rocks, but selecting suffers :( | 21:36 |
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| tzz | speaking of scroll, when viewing a large image in the image viewer, scrolling is by a few pixels only instead of by half a screen width/height. Does anyone else find that annoying? | 21:37 |
| konfoo | tigert: nice job on the plankton theme btw. now i can actually look at the UI without flinching :) | 21:37 |
| suihkulokki | *fortunatly* MS has patented this: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37568 | 21:37 |
| zuh | tzz: It could be sensible by detecting the direction of the drag and selecting or panning accordingly. I've implemented that in Scw and it worked pretty well (but I couldn't test it thoroughly though). | 21:37 |
| garrett | yeah, the new plankton is really nice | 21:38 |
| tigert | i think gnome needs to start thinking about web things too | 21:38 |
| garrett | tigert: I totally agree | 21:38 |
| robtaylor | tigert: next device, get them to put in a button that can be used for switching pointer modes =) | 21:38 |
| konfoo | suihkulokki: there's prior art on that | 21:38 |
| tigert | how to make hings work with that domain | 21:38 |
| tigert | rob :) | 21:38 |
| Tak | or a way to differentiate both ends of the stylus, like wacom tablets do | 21:38 |
| tzz | zuh: I think it's a hard problem actually, any time you want to guess what the user really wants | 21:38 |
| tzz | zuh: maybe it will work for a few cases, but generally introducing ambiguity in UI operations is a bad thing | 21:39 |
| tigert | yea. it is a hard thing. the stylus scroll is very very good on the browsing though | 21:39 |
| garrett | tigert: tapping on the left-side items should pop-up a menu | 21:40 |
| garrett | tigert: it doesn't currently -- lifting up from a tab does | 21:40 |
| konfoo | tigert: they do. they need a webapp framework. more webapps, less apt-get and compile from source. | 21:40 |
| Tak | imo it would be safe to switch it to a finger-only scroll | 21:40 |
| garrett | I want to be able to tap, drag to an item, let go, and have it launch | 21:40 |
| tzz | tigert: it would be so simple and cheap to have a scroll wheel on the side, just map it to mouse buttons 4 and 5 as usual | 21:40 |
| tigert | yeah, that too | 21:41 |
| tzz | tigert: Sony may have patents on that though, gah | 21:41 |
| Tak | hw scroll wheel would be good too | 21:41 |
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| tzz | Sony seemed to have a scroll wheel on everything they produced for a while, a span of 4 years or so | 21:42 |
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| tigert | heh. the tablet is insane | 21:42 |
| zuh | tzz: It works for most of the cases (well at least I think so ;), since selecting text is pretty distinctive operation wrt the direction you drag your mouse... | 21:42 |
| suihkulokki | Scrollwheel would really rock | 21:42 |
| tigert | i have been chatting all night with this 770 | 21:42 |
| tigert | i love this stuff | 21:42 |
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| tigert | with all the issues and faults, WE RULE | 21:43 |
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| zuh | tzz: but your doubts are valid as I have no test data to prove it :/ | 21:43 |
| Tak | yeah - the only reason I ever have to charge my 770 is reboots | 21:43 |
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| tigert | I had two palms, never really used them more than a bit | 21:43 |
| Tak | playing nes games for hours - still 4 bars | 21:43 |
| Tak | 1 reboot - down to 2 bars | 21:43 |
| ajturner | tak - yeah, I've notice the battery bar isn't 'linear' like that | 21:44 |
| tigert | yea, reboot takes lots of juice | 21:44 |
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| konfoo | i need to try those emus.. which ones are most playable btw? | 21:44 |
| ajturner | well, I think the batt doesn't get updated | 21:44 |
| ajturner | same on my N6600 | 21:44 |
| tigert | on the n800 it seems more weird | 21:44 |
| Tak | it's not linearity, it's that the reboot eats a TON of power | 21:44 |
| ajturner | it's not the reboot power drain | 21:44 |
| tigert | four bars, then zero | 21:44 |
| ajturner | yeah, I'm dubious on that | 21:44 |
| Tak | konfoo: fceu is probably the most playable, because I've spent the most time on it | 21:44 |
| tigert | yet it goes on longer | 21:44 |
| Tak | I've got a ton of stuff ready to go into the next release | 21:45 |
| konfoo | cool ill give it a whirl :) | 21:45 |
| Tak | more buttons, better (perfect at 2 frameskip) sound on n800, osso-based power management, volume control with zoom buttons, ... | 21:46 |
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| ajturner | Tak - is visualboyadvance bundled into the fceu install? VBA didn't show up in my app mgr, but when I installed the deb - it said it was alrady installed | 21:46 |
| Tak | vba's a separate deb | 21:46 |
| Tak | it's in the same repo as fceu though | 21:46 |
| ajturner | well, but why would the app mgr say VBA is already installed? | 21:47 |
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| Tak | so if you click both install files, it'll tell you the repo for the second one is already there | 21:47 |
| ajturner | doesn't show up in the available apps to install | 21:47 |
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| Tak | but it is installed? or not? | 21:47 |
| ajturner | doesn't shwo up in the Files | 21:48 |
| ajturner | nor does FCEU | 21:48 |
| Tak | Files? | 21:48 |
| ajturner | 'something strange is afoot' | 21:48 |
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| ajturner | App menu | 21:48 |
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| Tak | install Xmaeme | 21:48 |
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| ajturner | ah - VBA shows up in installed apps - so I need XMaeme to run them all? | 21:49 |
| Tak | if you don't want to run them from xterm ;-) | 21:49 |
| ajturner | heh | 21:49 |
| ajturner | yeah, not the easiest method to fire up apps | 21:49 |
| ajturner | I imagine it's not easy to transfer a ROM from a cart? need a ROM Reader? | 21:50 |
| Tak | it's easier to find roms online (for your legally purchased titles, of course) | 21:50 |
| ajturner | yeah, that's what I figured - annoying - I have the cart right here :) to now go and have to find/grab a torrent or something | 21:51 |
| Tak | there's also a gpl-free rom in the EFP package | 21:51 |
| [mbm] | vba runs pretty slow | 21:53 |
| [mbm] | didn't seem very playable | 21:53 |
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| Tak | it's not very playable | 21:53 |
| Tak | I was hoping that would be improved with n800 | 21:54 |
| * tzz sent off the scroll wheel suggestion to maemo-users | 21:54 | |
| zuh | tzz: Just in case you (or someone else) are curios to test it, http://scwwidgets.googlepages.com/scwtest is a small test app that tests the ScwView. One can add rows and try the select/pan thing with it... (sorry no deb for that, just a binary ;) | 21:55 |
| tzz | zuh: sorry, what does it do? | 21:56 |
| tzz | ok I see the website, a chat widget | 21:56 |
| zuh | (it's the one in the chat UI on the device ;) | 21:57 |
| tzz | cool, I can try it out | 21:57 |
| tzz | not right now, I have a meeting in 2 minutes :) I'll try tonight. | 21:58 |
| zuh | The selection has one other quirk, it doesn't do multi-row selections as usual, but instead if you select over the row border, it selects full rows (of data, not visible rows mind you)... | 21:59 |
| tzz | thanks zuh, I'll send you feedback directly | 21:59 |
| zuh | tzz: cool :) | 21:59 |
| zuh | I'd appreciate that, I really want to know it actually is worth keeping around... | 22:00 |
| jaebird | any pppd experts around? | 22:03 |
| * mgedmin is a pppd amateur | 22:06 | |
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| jaebird | I'm having bigtime trouble getting GPRS with my ROKR E2 | 22:07 |
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| koen | heh | 22:08 |
| tigert | heh | 22:08 |
| koen | motorola phone don't support gprs over bluetooth | 22:08 |
| jaebird | koen: don | 22:08 |
| jaebird | don't start this again :) | 22:08 |
| koen | it looks like they do, but it doesn't work | 22:08 |
| jaebird | it does | 22:08 |
| jaebird | It works just fine with my laptop...it is my N800 that isn't liking it | 22:09 |
| koen | it doesn't work with osx, maemo and windows mobile | 22:09 |
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| jaebird | my V540 also works fine with both N800 and my laptop | 22:09 |
| jaebird | does pastebin suk? | 22:10 |
| zuh | tzz: there is now scwtest-inverted too, in which the panning is more like the extension of the scrollbar (I personally prefer that, but usually it's the other way round). If you could give an opinion on that too, I'd like to hear it... | 22:10 |
| jaebird | rcvd [IPCP ConfReq id=0x1] | 22:11 |
| jaebird | sent [IPCP ConfNak id=0x1 <addr 0.0.0.0>] | 22:11 |
| jaebird | then hangup! | 22:11 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: I've seen this somewhere... | 22:13 |
| jaebird | mgedmin http://pastebin.ca/352402 | 22:14 |
| mgedmin | maybe not exactly this, but something similar | 22:15 |
| mgedmin | your pppd asks the ppp server implemented in your phone's firmware for Van Jacobson compression or something | 22:16 |
| mgedmin | then retries a few times | 22:16 |
| * Jaffa wonders, out of interest, if tigert/roope could confirm how many Nokia managers outside of the Maemo team have a PDA-like device with them which they insist is necessary for checking their email and calendar? Until a Maemo device can do either of those satisfactorily, it won't sell to PHBs except as a toy. | 22:16 | |
| mgedmin | but looks like the phone gets border and gives up | 22:16 |
| mgedmin | there's a pppd option that disables van jacobson | 22:17 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: if you have a pppd options file, try adding a line with '-vj' in there | 22:17 |
| jaebird | ok | 22:17 |
| roope | sorry, PHB? | 22:18 |
| part | pointy haired boss | 22:18 |
| roope | Oh. :) | 22:18 |
| Tak | I'm glad the ITs aren't targeted toward PHBs | 22:18 |
| Tak | that would make them 100% useless for me | 22:18 |
| part | tak: they'd have symbian | 22:18 |
| roope | Competing against the devices that PHB:s use would be very hard. | 22:18 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: where is the compression request? | 22:19 |
| jaebird | nevermind... | 22:19 |
| part | jaffa: from what I've seen PHBs tend to use a nokia communicator | 22:19 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: sent [IPCP ConfReq id=0x1 <compress VJ 0f 01> <addr 0.0.0.0> <ms-dns1 0.0.0.0> <ms-dns3 0.0.0.0>] | 22:19 |
| suihkulokki | jaffa, afaik most use Nokia communicators/eseries phones for calendaring | 22:19 |
| mgedmin | maybe also add -pc to disable protocol compression | 22:19 |
| roope | Yeah. I don't see the point in trying to compete against those. | 22:19 |
| mgedmin | maybe not | 22:19 |
| roope | Think even of Nokia as one company. :) | 22:20 |
| roope | Why would department A start to duplicate what department B already does. | 22:20 |
| ajturner | well, imagine if everyone walked into a room, the presenter "beamed" (BT/Wifi) the presentation and associated docs to all attendees (mgrs et al) who then had the slides/notes/refs/hyperlinks | 22:20 |
| roope | They're doing it, they're using Symbian, and that's that. | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: another couple of options that helped me with various gprs phones/pc cards were | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | lcp-echo-failure 0 | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | and | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | lcp-echo-interval 0 | 22:20 |
| Jaffa | part/suihkulokki: interesting. Now how d'you think the argument will go when it's suggested they carry around a small phone (for network access) + an Internet Tablet + a PDA-style device, or a smartphone/communicator + Internet tablet. | 22:20 |
| mgedmin | without these I used to get random disconnects after a minute or so | 22:21 |
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| Jaffa | roope: of course not, howver 5 years is a long time to sustain a business whilst waiting for the technology to catch up to your use cases. You really saying that the Maemo "experiment" is so strategic in Nokia that a couple of years of bad sales won't shut the project down? | 22:21 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: fyi... http://pastebin.ca/352416 this one is with my V540 which works! | 22:21 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: swapping sim cards to try some of your ideas | 22:22 |
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| mgedmin | jaebird: that's interesting | 22:22 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: I suggest you create a bug in the maemo bugzilla and post both logs | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | I'm sure the pppd on the n800 could be fixed to deal with this situation | 22:23 |
| jaebird | ok...will do | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | the working log explicitly repeats the IP address in the last config request | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | the broken log doesn't | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | looks like pppd on the tablet assumes the phone will remember the configured IP address | 22:23 |
| mgedmin | and the phone assumes the tablet forgot the IP and rejects it | 22:24 |
| roope | jaffa: Well, I hope that the same managers that came up with maemo did indeed have the long term strategic vision about it. | 22:24 |
| suihkulokki | Jaffa: now I'm purely guessing, but I think the idea is to do things with maemo that hard or impossible to do with symbian, not to compete with existing symbian products | 22:24 |
| Jaffa | roope: IME, managers find it easy to have strategic vision when the times are good, a lot less so when the times are bad. | 22:25 |
| roope | And times are bad? | 22:25 |
| suihkulokki | Jaffa: ..and as far as I know, the traditional standalone pda market is pretty much nonexisting | 22:25 |
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| Jaffa | suihkulokki: indeed, my point is that people with all the money (i.e. decision-making managers) won't buy the use cases, so won't buy the product. | 22:25 |
| Jaffa | roope: I dunno what Nokia's fortunes are like at the moment. No-one knows what they'll be like tomorrow, next month, next year. | 22:26 |
| roope | Well, Q4 results came just out a couple of weeks ago, I guess. | 22:26 |
| Jaffa | suihkulokki: agreed, it's all things like the MDAs etc. which do PDA-style functions, telephony *and* some approximation (albeit very badly) of an Internet Tablet. | 22:27 |
| roope | But if you know the Boston group model of portfolio, company needs to have products in multiple stages. | 22:27 |
| roope | unknowns, cash cows, rising stars etc. | 22:27 |
| * maddler just finished reading E90 review... | 22:27 | |
| roope | I'm pretty sure maemo is considered as an investment. Initially things like thees do not have to raise a profit. | 22:28 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: looking at the V540 log it looks like the pppd rcvd the ip address from the phone | 22:29 |
| jaebird | the wlan ip | 22:30 |
| jaebird | how did the phone get it in the first place...via BT pairing | 22:30 |
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| VRe | maemo is nice trying around with linux, voip and wlan so that operators don't get angry | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | not the wlan ip, surely | 22:31 |
| VRe | In long scenario I see that the phone is dropped from the equation, you just have the IT and maybe some small modem (like gps things now) | 22:31 |
| tigert | well, once internet is everywhere, you dont need the phone | 22:31 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: the ppp server on a phone usually picks some IP from the reserved-local-range (10.x.x.x) | 22:32 |
| tigert | currently for me the phone is the thing that gives me internet | 22:32 |
| tigert | but it probably will change | 22:32 |
| VRe | The modem for those cases you have some weird network which you can't connect with the IT, or maybe it's also small phone for _talking_ | 22:32 |
| VRe | the main user inteface would be the IT | 22:32 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: right, but the first received rcvd [IPCP ConfReq id=0x2 <addr 192.168.100.101>] which is the wlan ip address | 22:32 |
| VRe | .. and if that is the future, I would like to have also typical pda things like good calendar :) | 22:33 |
| Tak | if you're assuming continuous network access at that point, you're using a web-based calendar | 22:33 |
| VRe | ..maybe one can now actually program on top of the symbian with that open_c .. I doubt.. | 22:34 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: ah, that one -- isn't that the one that the GPRS server allocated to you? | 22:34 |
| VRe | Tak: Such thing doesn't exist that continous network access | 22:34 |
| * Jaffa just worries that infrastructure never becomes as ubiquitous as expected. See Acorn's problems with their Oracle NC & STB efforts, or Psion, or ... any number of companies which paid the price for saying "yeah, but in 5 years, $TECH will be ubiquitous and we'll have the market cornered with the perfect device". | 22:34 | |
| VRe | small internet hickup, router going down and you can't see what you were supposed to do next | 22:34 |
| Tak | you're talking about having wifi + modem... | 22:35 |
| jaebird | no that is the wlan's ip address the one being allocated is in the 10.x.x.x range a few lines up | 22:35 |
| VRe | Same way as calendar I would like actually to have the map and compass with me in the forrest.. | 22:36 |
| roope | jaffa: Yes, well that is always the risk. It's a gamble. Most gambles fail, some succeed. | 22:36 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: when pppd gets this: rcvd [IPCP ConfAck id=0x3 <addr 10.92.68.199> <ms-dns1 66.209.10.201> <ms-dns3 66.102.163.231>] | 22:36 |
| Jaffa | Now, of course, I'd love ubiquitous Internet worldwide; which didn't cost me a fortune when travelling away from my home country; didn't disappear when I went into a railway cutting or tunnel (very prevalent on the busiest railway route in the UK for hysterical raisins); worked when I was on a plane; worked when on the Channel Tunnel; worked on a boat in the middle of the English Channel; ... | 22:37 |
| jaebird | isn't it supposed to respond with something better than what it is doing? | 22:37 |
| VRe | central computer -> personal computer -> network is the computer... -> personal computer again? | 22:37 |
| roope | Anyway, I don't see where's the point if we don't take a risk. | 22:37 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: like this: sent [IPCP ConfAck id=0x2 <addr 192.168.100.101>] | 22:38 |
| roope | Why do things that have already been done. I think taking risks and thinking bol... to boldly go etc. is much more interesting. | 22:38 |
| mgedmin | jaebird: what is your question again? | 22:38 |
| Jaffa | roope: No-one's saying the 770 & N800 are worthless, or that the vision isn't intriguing. But meet *today's* use cases as well as tomorro'ws and you'll be *more* successful. | 22:38 |
| jaebird | sorry...it is getting lost in the irc mush | 22:38 |
| VRe | go boldly where nobody has gone before with something new.. not old | 22:38 |
| roope | That's really the only way IT can make a margin, by doing something that the others are not doing, instead of trying to play catchup. | 22:38 |
| jaebird | i'll right up a bug and let you know the #...that way you can comment | 22:39 |
| roope | jaffa: I don't really agree with that. Try to do everything and you'll do nothing well. | 22:39 |
| Jaffa | roope: but the point is everyone else is also doing things you're not doing: and they're making more money (I'd bet $10 on, anyway ;-)) | 22:39 |
| roope | Try to do both today and tomorrow and both the guys that do only today and the guys that do only tomorrow both run ahead. | 22:39 |
| roope | Yes, sure, currently. | 22:39 |
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| Jaffa | roope: now, if I was cynical I'd ask exactly *what* the N800 does *well* (rather than 'just about adequately, but I see the potential so I'll stick with it') ;-) | 22:40 |
| Jaffa | But I'm ill, so I'm being facetious | 22:40 |
| roope | I think it's really an illusion ... Like a hundred mp3 player makers see apple doing money with the ipod and then they think well we need to also do the same as the ipod. | 22:40 |
| roope | No, you need to do what apple would do next. | 22:40 |
| VRe | well, calendar and basic pda stuff isn't much catchup - if someone just would do usability testing for one of the calendar and push the devel a bit | 22:40 |
| roope | (unless you're in the commodities market) | 22:41 |
| roope | jaffa: that's a valid question. | 22:41 |
| VRe | well, apple has to do the calendar also | 22:41 |
| roope | For its size it has a pretty decent browser. | 22:41 |
| Jaffa | roope: people were doing much more than the iPhone than the iPhone does, years ago - Nokia included. So why's everyone jazzed about the iPhone: 1) consistency and thought in the UI; 2) it's the "Apple" name. | 22:41 |
| VRe | you have some basic blocks which should be there and working, then you have this visionary stuff in the pipeline coming into the use in say 3-5 years | 22:42 |
| roope | Well, ok, Apple is bad example, since there's the apple hype in nearly everyhing apple. | 22:42 |
| suihkulokki | iPoo | 22:42 |
| suihkulokki | *drrooool* | 22:42 |
| Jaffa | roope: I know what you mean, but software only gets a "decent" label from me if it's stable and reliable. Something which Opera hasn't been able to get to on Maemo in over 1.5 years (even if I understand the underlying technical reasons, it's still frustrating as a user) | 22:43 |
| roope | Yes, yes, I agree. :) | 22:43 |
| VRe | Jaffa: Amen | 22:43 |
| Jaffa | Although 8.5 is a lot better (probably related to the more memory) | 22:43 |
| VRe | It's like most of the software is missing the last 15%, they work but are not there yet | 22:43 |
| Jaffa | Anyway, cup of tea downstairs and a cuddle from Mrs Jaffa to make me feel better :-) | 22:43 |
| part | jaffa: it's not just the apple name, it's the apple religion | 22:44 |
| VRe | but I can understand - 20/80 rule, last 20% takes 80% of the time | 22:44 |
| roope | But it's like David and Goliath, and maemo needs to think quite carefully where to aim with the sling. | 22:44 |
| roope | And trying to compete with the goliaths at their main businesses, I don't it would be at all a smart idea. | 22:45 |
| VRe | I think nokia internal has to think the future mainly, the rest try to be in the moment | 22:45 |
| roope | Where the big companies make their money right now, that's also where the hold on to the markets most fiercely. Along the edges, the new markets, there are lot more untapped potential. | 22:46 |
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| roope | Doing a phone or doing PIM would be complete folly. But that's just my opinion. :) | 22:48 |
| tigert | yeah | 22:48 |
| tigert | was just about to say the same thing | 22:48 |
| tigert | if N800 was a PDA or phone | 22:48 |
| tigert | it would be right there in the battlefield | 22:48 |
| VRe | it's there already | 22:49 |
| tigert | instead it is a whole new thing - doing one part of the handheld connected device stuff (arguably) better than others | 22:49 |
| tigert | phones or pdas rarely have as good screen and browser | 22:49 |
| VRe | by missing some features from the package doesn't mean it's not crossing the same field | 22:49 |
| tigert | even with the issues | 22:49 |
| tigert | sure it overlaps too | 22:49 |
| VRe | pim it overlaps a lot, phone thru voip | 22:50 |
| VRe | if it would have good pda wouldn't hurt the sales - that would make the sales larger - would create larger ecosystem - and would make many other things easier | 22:52 |
| suihkulokki | IMHO it should provide access to view and edit calendar/phonebook of your phone | 22:52 |
| VRe | I heard that they were supposed to have some calendar on 770 somepoint but the calendar sucked so badly that it was scrapped | 22:53 |
| roope | A larger ecosystem makes everyhing slower, on the other hand. | 22:54 |
| jaebird | mgedmin: Bug 1048 | 22:54 |
| roope | Look at S60 for instance. | 22:54 |
| VRe | no symbian makes it slow | 22:54 |
| VRe | 6kk in school and then you can code | 22:55 |
| roope | Sounds ... scary. :D | 22:56 |
| part | kk = month | 22:56 |
| VRe | For large ecosystem you can make niches, there is those whom you can make expensive progs, and then there is those who are not willing to pay so they will settle for less | 22:57 |
| roope | S60 is already doing that. | 22:57 |
| VRe | Only commerial thing for IT seems to be the navigator thingy, where are the rest | 22:58 |
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| VRe | roope: Well, where is the free stuff? | 22:58 |
| roope | For s60? There's plenty of free stuff. | 22:58 |
| VRe | like palm did? | 22:58 |
| roope | Sorry? | 22:59 |
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| VRe | s60/symbian comes from commerial to freeware scrap, maemo is building from free to commerial | 23:00 |
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| roope | s60 webkit devcore something is free. | 23:00 |
| roope | In general I don't really think the free/commercial question is even so important or interesting. :) | 23:01 |
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| roope | (but then again I can be tried for heresy.) | 23:01 |
| * Tak prepares the stake and the firewood | 23:01 | |
| VRe | A lots of free makes people always interested | 23:01 |
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| roope | utilizing open source has both its pros and cons, I think it's a wise strategy not to think in absolutes. Harness the best sides of both into a product. | 23:03 |
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| VRe | amount of commerial software tells something about the size of the market and view of companies for possible profits in the area, amount of free software for one tells how easy it's to create software (few do difficult for free) | 23:04 |
| pbrook | VRe: For some definition of "difficult". | 23:05 |
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| VRe | pbrook: look dictionary | 23:06 |
| pbrook | VRe: Presence of large quantities of open source software doesn't neccly mean it's a an easy platform to develope for, and absence of open source software doesn't mean it's hard to develop for. | 23:07 |
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| roope | Symbian is "more difficult", because there are a lot more stakeholders. Every change is smaller, every thing needs to facilitate a much larger number of pepole. | 23:07 |
| roope | "A small change" is a huge change, because it affects so many people suddenly. That makes it slow. | 23:08 |
| VRe | pbrook: Not absolutely, but it goes to that direction - difficult could be also the cost of developing | 23:08 |
| pbrook | eg. if a system is completely locked down there will be little/no open source software. But once you buy the right licence it might by a really easy/nice platform to develop for. | 23:08 |
| VRe | symbian is difficult because the basic programming language is something few know out of the companies, now atleast they have some wrappers around the symbian (than open_c thing) | 23:09 |
| Tak | I might say that the necessity of purchasing a license is a factor of the difficulty | 23:09 |
| pbrook | Also, it depends how close the system is to conventional a conventional posix system. If it's linux based then pretty much everything works without hacking. If it's somethig bizarre then existing software takes effort to port. | 23:10 |
| pbrook | However if you're writing $(random_app) from scratch using a suitable custom widget set that's irrelevant. | 23:10 |
| pbrook | Tak: Purchansing a licence is a big barrier to open source software, but fairly irelevant for proprietary software. | 23:11 |
| Tak | depends on company size | 23:12 |
| VRe | propietary software just doesn't come on the device if there isn't big enough market | 23:12 |
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| pbrook | Someting like scratchbox is great if you're used to unix/debian-like systems. But give it to a group used to windows development with msvc++ and they'll be completely lost. | 23:13 |
| Tak | pbrook: yeah, I see that the gp2x toolkit is very windows-centric | 23:13 |
| Tak | I also see that there's a substantially lower portion of floss software for gp2x | 23:14 |
| pbrook | Yeah. Symbian also tends to be the that extreme. They'll sell you a nice SDK for pretty much exerything, but trying to build regular unixy software is a real PITA. | 23:15 |
| tigert | pbrook: only the select few are worthy of linux development tools | 23:18 |
| tigert | ;^) | 23:19 |
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| koen | " The OS also features an interesting and completely open source-licensed Hiker Application Framework (HAF)" | 23:21 |
| koen | great, now we have 2 HAFs | 23:21 |
| tigert | hehe | 23:21 |
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| VRe | If I would make a small scenario with the devel tools for portable devices, maybe in few years there is maemo, symbian, ms with .net, apple and objectivec/cocoa/whatever and maybe even palm in some form | 23:21 |
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| VRe | maemo can inherist big softaware and developer ecosystem from linux, symbian tries to build bridges towards posix and gtk etc, ms is riding .net horse everywhere, apple is unknown and palm atleast was going on top of linux | 23:29 |
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| roope | Whatever happened to Palm / Access btw. | 23:31 |
| roope | They pretty much vanished. | 23:31 |
| jaebird | anybody figure out how to wire the radio output to gstreamer so we can record to flash? | 23:31 |
| pbrook | roope: They're still going. | 23:32 |
| [mbm] | roope: they're still around, not completely bankrupt | 23:32 |
| sxpert | roope, not exactly... palm apparently bought palmsource back or something | 23:32 |
| roope | Yeah. But been quite quiet lately. | 23:32 |
| [mbm] | guess they're just not doing anything newsworthy | 23:32 |
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| roope | they discontinued the lifedrive just recently. | 23:33 |
| roope | I tried the Palm Lifedrive. It was quite a mess. Some nice UI things, but many things were really broken. | 23:34 |
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| idan | howdy | 23:35 |
| idan | I have a question, having trouble googling answers | 23:35 |
| jaebird | hidan | 23:35 |
| idan | I flashed my 770 with gregale, and enabled r&d mode | 23:36 |
| idan | it works great! except.... | 23:36 |
| idan | when I shut it down, it seems to turn off for a second | 23:36 |
| idan | after which it boots right back up | 23:36 |
| idan | :( | 23:36 |
| jaebird | hard to stop a good thing! | 23:36 |
| idan | I can get it to really shut down by issuing "sudo shutdown -h now" via xterm | 23:37 |
| Veggen | What does /proc/bootreason say? | 23:37 |
| idan | Veggen: aha, don't know, checking | 23:37 |
| idan | one sec, will have to boot, then shutdown, then boot again | 23:37 |
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| idan | gaaah | 23:42 |
| idan | now I cannot make it happen | 23:42 |
| idan | wierd | 23:42 |
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| idan | when the case is on, is the power button supposed to function? | 23:49 |
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| idan | (I mean on where it is covering the screen) | 23:49 |
| idan | sigh | 23:52 |
| idan | ok, I'll check back when I have more info, thanks | 23:52 |
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