IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2007-02-05

Jaffaqgil: true, but don't forget the pool of people who can hack on the lower levels, or those with UI ideas (which once released are often fixed) or, best of all, the pool of developers who are willing to put up with more flaws than a consumer to get a good product out at the end of it.00:00
cworthWow, and 2006 was a lot worse.00:00
c0ffeemaemo-hackers, repo.m.o, and repo.m.o/extras/ should do the trick00:00
Jaffaqgil: but I don't envy your job - fun as it sounds ;-)00:00
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suihkulokkiJaffa: re closed planning, I think the only way it could be changed would actually have a open source platform (aka maemo) being developed, and new siikrit products would be created on top of maemo releases00:00
cworthWhat's the reason for all these separate repositories? And what can we do to get this much much closer to 1?00:00
suihkulokkicurrently the situation is oppisite (meamo relases are based on product releases)00:00
cworth(And preferably, just a checkbox away on the default install...)00:01
Jaffasuihkulokki: Agreed, that's my conclusion too. But I can see the many problems arguing that from an internal Nokia business perspectice.00:01
* sp3000 slaps the wiki00:01
tkocworth, we already have the extras repository where people can upload packages.. but they don't :-/00:01
Jaffacworth: the process for uploading to the extras repository needs to be improved.00:01
suihkulokkicworth: well, you need to ask maemo-hackers people why they stick at their own repo00:01
qgilJaffa: I'm not underestimating all the HELP Nokia is getting from the community, I'm only saying that the best way to get this help (IMO) is exchanging help:00:01
tkolack of publicity I suppose00:01
cworthtko: Can we just copy all the packages from all these repositories into extras and then remove the listings from the wiki?00:02
Jaffatko: I uploaded my first packages early last week but they've not appeared and I've had to feedback.00:02
* Jaffa needs to poke ferenc tomorrow.00:02
c0ffeepoke him a bit from me, too :)00:02
qgilthe community helps Nokia doing this by helping themselves in their own developments, and Nokia helps the community supporting this and that, and providing great tools for developers (this last bit falls under my responsibility and I know we are not in the best of the scenarios now)00:02
c0ffeeit would have been very interesting, if the developer device mails included a paragraph 'you have been selected because ...'00:03
tkocworth, if someone was willing to spend the time to do it, and agree with the maintainers, I guess00:03
qgilc0ffee: how long would it take for you to write this paragraph once?00:03
Jaffaqgil: sounds good. One of the things which has been bugging me since gregale was announced (but I've not yet fully formed, so forgive me if this is half-baked) is related to what tko said earlier. All these different code names (which end up being different repositories) all for Maemo 2.x is a mistake. I'd suggest keeping all Maemo 3.x releases as "bora"00:04
c0ffeeqgil, don't tell me you memorized all the reasons or did it using post-it notes :) I'd think such information is available in digital form00:04
qgilJaffa: copy this and paste it in an email answering my thread in maemo-developers, please00:04
Jaffac0ffee: yeah, but you'd want to write it in public-facing, polite, corporate-speak.00:05
c0ffeeqgil, it's more or less another formulation for 'we need help-wanted notes from maemo'00:05
Jaffaqgil: will do: I'll sleep on it and perhaps be more cogent in the morning :)00:05
Jaffa get this help (IMO)00:05
Jaffa          is exchanging help:00:05
Jaffa<tko> lack of publicity I suppose00:05
JaffaDamn copy buffer.00:05
JaffaAnyway, bed time now.00:05
c0ffeeg'n8 jaffa00:06
keesjtko, I have not been able to upload because of the gpg stuff, I have almost become a debian package engineer. not every body can find the time to create great software and package and upload it00:06
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qgilJaffa: be tough, please00:06
henryykthi everyone00:06
MDKtko: what do you mean?00:06
cworthqgil: As for "great tools for developers", even before quality, I think it's really important to see some of the fundamental tools, (flasher and things needed to bring the device up "from scratch" be made open).00:06
tkokeesj, I know00:06
MDKtko: icon sizes?00:06
qgilc0ffee: I'm happy saving as many minutes as possible delivering those 500 devices - anyway there is not always a clear reason00:06
tkoMDK, the warnings in the console00:06
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tkoMDK, and if you fix the warnings, icons disappear from TN menus.. whoops00:07
c0ffeeqgil, i can imagine :)00:07
qgilcworth: email to the list replying my thread  :)00:07
cworthqgil: In order to create some fundamental community momentum, that community has to be able to see itself as being self-sufficient.00:07
c0ffeereminds me, of something i could note as well00:07
henryyktit seems that on N800 gdk_devices_list() also returns Touchscreen as device. Is this expected behaviour?00:07
cworthqgil: Which thread?00:07
* cworth doesn't read maemo-developers religiously00:07
MDKtko: hmmm, didn't notice that. I tested with the example (hildon-icon-sizes-example) and it worked fine00:07
qgilcworth: yes, I know :)  the problem comes when we ware dealing with a project with hardware and sales involved, and the community is not going to be self-.sufficient there ever (or not in this century, at least)00:08
tkoMDK, sure, but the menu icons and other stuff is borked00:08
MDKwill check tomorrow00:08
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MDKcould it be the general icon sizes borkage?00:09
cworthqgil: Well, for "self sufficient", I mean that the community could go on playing with an "obsolete" device, (as far as sales are concerned), indefinitely.00:09
tkoMDK, no, it's just that gtk does not know how to parse FALSE for boolean properties, you need to use 0 .. duh!00:09
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tkoMDK, I've made a bunch of changes to gtkrc again.. I'll probably commit the obvious ones tomorrow00:10
qgilcworth: yes, this could be a reasonable aim - however the 770 is being still sold - and inside you have many hardware/software components that not even Nokia can open since don't belong to them - I'm not excusing Nokia, just providing some details about the complexity behind00:11
MDKtko: ok. I've got the hildon-calendar patch all done so we can get the legal stuff rolling00:11
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tkoMDK, I also triggered another menu flickering problem.. but on the bright side, I have menus scrolling :)00:12
qgilalright, it's getting late here, and I'm one of the first ones stepping in our office in the morning00:12
tkoqgil, even before karl?00:13
c0ffeeif you want to be credible as an open-source guy, you must not appear at work before 3pm00:13
qgilplease, make clear what are you deepest desires around the development platform, in the maemo-developers list, the most specific and pragmatical you are the easier will be to us to move things forward00:13
qgiltko: I'm at 7am there00:14
nomisI put a HildonHVolumeBar into a Menuitem, which in turn gets added to a MenuShell. However, Clicks on it just close the menu, how can I pass the clicks through to the embedded widget?00:14
tkoqgil, wow00:14
c0ffeealready flooding your with mails, qgil :)00:14
cworthqgil: Right. One problem is that no rationale exists for each of the closed source parts. Why's the flasher not open for example? (Not that I'm asking you for an answer for that now, but that's a question Nokia could address---and similarly for each other piece.)00:14
c0ffeecworth, it contains and very secret protocol for flashing from TI00:15
c0ffeenobody could just sniff it00:15
cworthIt would definitely be great to see an image that could be built and flashed with entirely open source/tools, (even if it didn't lead to full funcitonality of all components of the device).00:15
c0ffeeor pipe the whole flasher through ida4l00:15
qgilcworth: this is another reasonable request00:15
c0ffeei already sent it :)00:15
c0ffee<- first00:15
qgiland good night00:16
c0ffeegood fight00:16
c0ffeegood night00:16
qgilgood right00:16
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nomisIs the code for brightness/volume applet really closed? Or do I miss something obvious?00:58
nomisI'd really like to know if the menu that they pop up really is a menu or something else. And if it is a menu, how the volume bar got integrated.00:59
timelygive me a few00:59
timelyhildon=status-bar-display ?01:00
timelydoesn't seem to be open source :(01:00
timelythere's a real menu from the looks01:01
timelyyou should be bale to use a gtk inspection tool to determine this :)01:01
nomisI really don't get it. That really should be simple code and could serve very well as example for other applets. Oh well.01:01
timelythe code won't have a comment saying "this isn't open source because XXX"01:02
timelyunless it's "this include code from <XXX>"01:02
nomisactually I believe I am at 80% replicating the functionality. It is just that the embedded volumebar/controlbar do not actually work, because the menu eats the mouseclick.01:03
timelyit seems to be a HILDON_CONTROLBAR whatever that is01:03
nomistimely: oh, that widget is publicly available.01:03
nomistimely: I use it already.01:03
timelyoh, i'm not saying it isn't01:03
timelyjust that it's 1am and i'd rather not look it up and indeed assume you can look it up :)01:04
nomistimely: the problem for me right now is: Is it embedded into a GtkMenuItem? Or is the stuff that pops up not a Menu?01:04
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timelylooks like it's a window01:06
timelywith a menu hint, a menuitem, menu packing01:06
timelyand your contorl01:06 it isn't in a menu01:06
timelyhrm, superbowl started01:07
timelydid i miss any good commercials?01:07
nomistimely: hmm, ok.01:08
nomistimely: thanks. That at least eases my mind, although it means more work  :)01:08
timelynot sure how one goes about asking if this stuff could be open sourced01:08
timelyi think wha tyou should do is find the public contact from the debian package and ask them :)01:08
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timelythe info is in debian/control01:09
* timely goes back to solaris01:09
nomistimely: thanks.01:09
* timely ponder01:10
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timelyif i'm not in the us, do i not get us commercials?01:11
timelythat'd suck01:11
timelythe only good part about the superbowl is the commercials01:11
timelyis anyone streaming the american superbowl feed? :(01:11
Milhous1Cheerleaders are nice :)01:14
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Milhous1I hope they explain the rules, I don't have a flipping clue!01:16
timelyif there's a controversy, they'll explain01:17
timely4 downs to get 10 yards01:18
timelyusually if you aren't close enough or under enough pressure, you punt on the 4th down01:18
timelyif you don't make 10 yards progress from the original first down position w/in 4 downs, it's a turnover on downs, and the other team gets possession at the spot of the last down01:19
Milhous1Thanks. How often do the cheerleaders come out?01:19
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timelyyou can score 6pts for a touchdown (td), 3 for a field goal (fg), 2 for a safety (tackling the offense in their own endzone)01:20
timelyextra points after touchdown are either 1 (normal, by kicking), or 2 (another play to get the ball to the endzone)01:20
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Milhous1So it's like rugby, I'll go with the Colts - are they any good?01:20
timelytechnical play time is 1 hr, in 4 quarters01:21
timelydon't ask me?01:21
timelyi've been on the wrong side of the globe for the better half of the year01:21
jaebirdcolts are favored by most01:21
jaebirdbears haven't been since the mid 80s01:21
timelybesides, i haven't followed NFL in years01:21
timelymy announcers are speaking finnish01:21
timelycould someone *please* find me an american stream?01:22
timelyanyway, every quarter the teams switch sides (and orientation)01:22
Milhous1I've got Don 'miami vice' Johnson here (Sky, UK)01:22
timelyfor the 2nd and 4th quarters, the ball actually moves to the symetric location01:23
timelyfor the 1st and 3rd quarters, the ball is kicked by one team to the other (kickoff)01:23
timelythere's a coin toss that determines who choses if they are kicked or kick the ball for the first quarter01:23
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timelythe other team does the honors for the 3rd quarter01:23
Milhous1I feel like an American watching football and not understanding the off-side rule01:24
timelyafter most scores there's another kickoff01:24
timelyyou mean for hockey? :)01:24
timelythe offside rules in football aren't too complicated01:24
timelyyou're offside if you're across the line of scrimage when the ball is snapped01:24
timelydepending on whether you have a good video feed or a sucky one, you might get a nice digital yellow stripe showing that line01:25
Milhous1Nice looking stadium - Indianopolis01:26
timelyanyway, time generally runs until the 2 minute warning01:26
timely(which iirc is per half)01:26
timelyeach team gets 3 timeouts per half01:27
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Milhous1I'll try and stick with this Superbowl,  have fallen asleep during the previous finals I've watched01:27
timelytime stops for injuries, first downs, penalties (?), and sometimes running out of bounds or incomplete passes01:27
Milhous1Someone just scored from kick off01:28
timelynice run01:28
* timely shrugs, the names don't mean anything to me :)01:28
Milhous1Was rather01:28
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timelyanyway, that's the basics01:29
timelythere are penalties for pass interference, holding, roughing the quarter back, too many/few men on the field01:29
|tbb|92 yards touch down01:30
timelyoffsides, failing to snap the ball before the 30s clock runs out01:30
timelydon't ask why :)01:30
timely(it's a 92 yard touch down [run])01:30
Milhous1Bugger, Hester plays for the Bears - not good! Go Colts! :)01:30
timelyoh, and it looks like the coverage includes a digital frist down marker01:31
Milhous1Blue line?01:32
timelyoh, false starts01:32
timelyfalse starts are basically after an offensive player is set (hands in position) and moves01:32
timelyblue line is line of scrimage01:32
timelyyellow is first down marker01:33
timely(which is how far you have to get to get your next first down)01:33
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Milhous1Right, thanks01:33
timelypenalties range from 5, 10, 15 yards in general01:33
timelywith changes when you're w/in 2yrds of the endzone01:33
timelyiow you can't score based on a penalty01:33
timelyso they switch to half the distance if the normal thing would be too much01:34
timely(half the distance [to the goal line])01:34
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timelyok, turnovers can happen in a number of fun wyas:01:34
timely1. interception01:34
timely2. fumble01:34
timely3. loss of down01:35
timely4. kickoffs01:35
Milhous1Think I need to watch this more often to get the hang of the rules01:35
Milhous1Wtf??? Commercial break01:35
timelyfor a normal kickoff there's a guy who01:35
timelyoh, cheer leaders would be visible during some of those breaks, but you might not see them because of coverage :)01:35
timelyanyway, for a normal kickoff, there are two people who are likely to receive the ball01:36
timelyand they have a choice of either indicating fair catch, or planning to run with it01:36
timelyif they indicate fair catch, then you can't run into them, and they can't run01:36
timelyif they don't, then the opposite :)01:36
Milhous1Would  be cool if a Nokia N800 commercial came on!01:37
timelybut if the ball hits one of the receiving team's players, and it isn't fair catch (?), then the other team can grab it01:37
timelywhat's the going rate for a commercial this year?01:37
timely2-3million for 30s?01:37
timelynokia doesn't have the budget01:37
timelyand i won't see it anyway :(01:37
Milhous1Catch and run away with it?01:37
timelyrun or down it, yeah01:37
timely(downing is a technical term)01:38
Milhous1Yeah 2m would be better spent on developing better software :)01:38
Milhous1Yay cheerleaders on Sky....01:39
timelyi'm upgrading to an american audio stream01:40
Milhous1'I love the British accent' lol01:40
Milhous1This is more like it01:41
timelyyeah, someone suggestion the bbc feed01:42
Andy80do you know if "gmediaserver" for Linux is compatible with "Media Streamer" for N770?01:43
Andy80they both should support UpNP standard... but I cannot make media streamer work..01:44
Milhous1ITV in the UK also showing Superbowl01:45
Milhous1Though I avoid ITV like the plague (except for Formula 1)01:45
Milhous1Sorry, broadcasting - not sure if they are streaming try
timelyfrance2 seems to have it too01:48
timelybut i don't get that01:48
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timelyanywa, that's most of the major rules01:49
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Milhous1I reckon I could have scored that first goal though ;)01:50
timelyooo, nice fumble01:51
timelywell, you've now seen both fumbles and interceptions :)01:51
Milhous1Very careless01:51
timelyit's kinda like pool01:51
Milhous1They get very excited by fumbles01:52
timelyof course, it's raining fairly heavily01:52
timelybut that's nowhere near as much fun as the icebowl01:52
Milhous1Colts defence is non existant01:53
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timelybasically the general scoring progression is 7 each side alternating01:53
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timelyyour best way to win is by getting an extra scoring possession by a turnover01:53
Disconnectquit it, i'm behind realtime (hidef mythbox)01:53
Milhous1Lol sorry disconect01:53
* timely is listening to the official audio which is like 1 play behind the video here :(01:54
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Milhous1More commercials!!!01:55
timelytime for a snack01:56
Milhous1Same here01:56
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Disconnectwow someone needs to dry off that ball01:59
Disconnect(yes i'm that far behind)01:59
timelynot much point, it's raining heavily02:00
Disconnectyah but back to back fumbles is a bit much02:00
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timelynote that rain will usually mean more running since passing is even more risky02:00
timelyat least, i believe that's right, i really haven't paid attn to football in nearly a decade02:01
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Milhous1Disconnect: Blimey, how far behind are you?02:06
timelyi'd say he's 5-10mins back02:08
Milhous1Play time here is: 1:4002:08
Milhous1Just stopped02:08
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Milhous1Bears looking good to win this at the moment02:09
DisconnectMilhous1: 38 mins out of 45 right now. so about 8 mins02:11
Disconnect2:58 here02:11
Disconnectit'll go up and down (got ribs on the smoker so i have to pause it periodically to go tweak them)02:11
Disconnectits amazing how many channels are mostly talking about the game right now02:12
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Milhous1Got two showing it here but to be honest nobody really cares for it, suspect it's a nice filler for the overnight schedule02:13
nomisbah, that sucks. The stuff I have on screen right now does not behave right at all. Gah.02:14
Milhous1First quarter over02:15
Milhous1Bring on the cheerleaders!!!!02:15
nomisDo I now have to put the Menuitem inside a Button to make it react to clicks or what? Grgh.02:16
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timelynomis: i didn't see a button02:26
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nomisjust weird.02:27
nomisoh well. I'll have a fresh look at it tomorrow.02:27
nomisI guess I have to grab the pointer as well, and manually hide the window if a click has happened and all that kind of stuff a menu does at free will. Grgh.02:29
Milhous1Any chance of a 'wardrobe failure' at half time?02:29
Milhous1Weather is geting worse by the look of things02:31
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s-ndh-cthose mono tarbals from the new wiki entry work well on my n770 device03:13
s-ndh-cbut i cant get this mono-devkit working in my scratchbox target03:14
alpok, i'm updating my hildon c# binding. it dates from 2005-10-24 -- has there been any restructuring in library naming since then?03:14
s-ndh-c[sbox-i386: ~] > mono03:15
s-ndh-c/scratchbox/devkits/mono/bin/mono: /scratchbox/host_shared/lib/ version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by /scratchbox/host_shared/lib/
s-ndh-cit allways gives me that03:15
alpi'm guessing at least libhildonwidgets has changed03:16
s-ndh-calp: isnt there a changelog from 1.1 to 2.x?03:17
alpChangeLog was empty03:17
alpi see hildon-lgpl is obsolete03:18
alpthe binding used to cover hildonlgpl, hildonwidgets and hildonfm03:18
s-ndh-cMDK: any idea what i might have done wrong?03:23
lle2s-ndh-c: have you copied libgthread from your host system to /scratchbox/host_shared/...?03:32
s-ndh-clle2: yeag03:32
lle2it seems to be built against a newer glibc than what sb provides03:32
s-ndh-ciam running ubuntu edgy03:33
s-ndh-ci just copied those from /usr/lib of my host system03:33
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lle2you could try getting those libs from debian/sarge, I think.03:34
s-ndh-ci can see in /scratchbox/host-shared/ the is a link to libc-2.3.203:34
s-ndh-clle2: ok will try that03:34
s-ndh-canyways time to sleep03:35
lle2or rebuilding them inside sb, using the host target03:35
s-ndh-cyou mean download libglib and compile that in the host target?03:36
s-ndh-cand then copy the resulting bins to host-shared/lib?03:36
lle2for example03:37
lle2or to /host_usr/lib inside sb03:37
s-ndh-cwill try that tommorrow03:37
s-ndh-cthx for the hint, maybe that works out03:37
lle2 /host_usr is the "official" end-user installed tools dir03:38
s-ndh-ci see03:39
s-ndh-cwill give that a whirl03:39
lle2I never quite understood how the sb devkit thing works so I keep dumping my own stuff to /host_usr03:40
s-ndh-cbut as i can just use my host to compile c# programs its not a blocker not to get mono work inside the sb env, it might get more interesting to get it working inside sb when alp has done a new hildon binding03:42
s-ndh-ctime to sleep03:42
s-ndh-ccya guys03:42
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Takdo I need a g_main_loop() for osso_hw_set_event_cb to work?04:13
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alpi updated the hildon binding at -- there are a few parser fixups but i haven't checked coverage yet04:20
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Takapparently the answer is "yes"04:45
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Milhous1How can Indianapolis be World Champions when no other country is involved?! V. funny....05:23
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Takwhat other country would want to be involved in american football?05:54
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JoshTriplettIf I want to create a program with two main views (choosing a recording and playing a recording), how should I do that?  Two HildonWindow objects?  One HildonWindow with a gtk.Notebook and hide the tabs?  Something else entirely?06:03
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JoshTriplettDo I want to repopulate my HildonWindow with controls for each view each time you switch?06:04
JoshTriplettOr should I keep two top-level containers around, and reparent one or the other into the window?06:04
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TakIMO you should have one container populated with each set06:15
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JoshTriplettTak: OK.  That makes sense.06:18
JoshTriplettAlso, if I want to manage a list of servers to connect to, what UI makes the most sense for that?  A single "manage servers" dialog with buttons for "new", "delete", and "connect"?  Or a menu listing all the servers and a "new" item at the bottom?  In the latter case, how should deletion work?  How can I make a menu with an X icon at the right edge like the Home menu?06:22
Takmaybe similar to xchat's server list?06:25
JoshTriplettHaven't tried xchat yet. :)06:26
Takah - it has a listbox with the servers, and buttons for add, edit, remove, connect06:27
JoshTriplettTak: Similar to the Application Catalog dialog in the Application Manager, but with Edit in place of Details, and a Connect button?06:28
JoshTriplettTak: Should I pop it up and auto-open the New dialog the first time you open the application?06:29
Takif a server's required, then probably06:29
JoshTriplettTak: Writing an application to use the N800 as a MythTV remote, using the MythFrontend telnet interface.06:30
JoshTriplettTak: Naturally, you need a frontend. :)06:30
JoshTriplettTak: Hmmm.  Since the application allows only one frontend at a time, perhaps I should use a combobox.  Same buttons at the bottom, but it might make the dialog a bit less overwhelming for the common case of having only one frontend.06:33
JoshTriplettThis seems like such a common pattern, perhaps Hildon should supply a standard dialog for managing a list of items; you supply it with a means of popping up a dialog for an individual item, and a function to summarize an item, and it gives you the add/edit/delete, and optionally a "use this one" button like "connect".06:37
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Taknew fceu layout coming:
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JoshTriplettTak: Nice.07:32
JoshTriplettTak: One thought, though:07:32
JoshTriplettTak: You can already get to "save" and "load" via the hardware keys.07:32
JoshTriplettTak: And if you moved the video output to the far left, you'd have room on the right for two columns of buttons.07:33
JoshTriplettTak: That would allow the traditional button layout of the NES controller, with B to the left of A.07:33
JoshTriplettTak: And Select to the left of Start.07:34
JoshTriplettTak: You could then put "screenshot" and "quit" on the bottom row, leaving a blank row so people don't hit them accidentally while playing.07:34
JoshTriplettTak: Or alternatively, you might consider putting B and A on the bottom, select and start above that, and quit in the traditional upper-right.07:36
JoshTriplettTak: Just my opinion, as someone who used the original NES controller, and had a hard time with B above A rather than to the left.07:36
JoshTriplettTak: For instance, with the original controller, you could hold B with part of your thumb, and press and release A with the rest of your thumb; hence, Mario used B to run and A to jump, so you could run constantly and jump when needed.07:39
JoshTriplettTak: I can't seem to manage that with the fceu layout, though admittedly I didn't try it for very long.07:39
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JoshTriplettTak: What do you think?07:42
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TakI still do that, just with my thumb vertical07:44
Taklike you had to with Y+B on snes07:45
Takit also felt awkward to me holding the 770 so that my right thumb was horizontal07:45
Takadditionally, I'm planning to change the hw keys to volume change07:46
JoshTriplettTak: Hmmm, I see your point.  Y+B on the SNES actually felt more comfortable than B+A on the NES, because of the downward angle.  But vertical feels less comfortable to me than horizontal, which feels less comfortable than downward angle.07:47
JoshTriplettTak: And angles take up lots of space...07:47
JoshTriplettTak: And configurability here seems like massive overkill. :)07:48
Takit seems like inadvertently hitting sel or start would be more likely if they were horizontal07:50
JoshTriplettTak: And I wouldn't hold the original NES controller up as a model of ergonomic design. :)07:50
Takyou mean people's hands aren't completely square and horizontal?! ;-)07:51
JoshTriplettTak: Out of curiosity, does the directional control allow you to move diagonally?07:54
JoshTriplettTak: Does it register two directions at once?07:54
Takyes, you can move diagonally07:55
c0ffeethe hw keys only send one keypress at a time afaik07:55
Takalthough it only registers one keypress07:55
Takyou can even throw your boomerang diagonally in zelda07:55
JoshTriplettTak: So you get "right pressed" then "down pressed" and you treat that as "down-right", then you get "right released" and you start sending the game "down" instead?07:56
TakI didn't have to hack that part of the code at all, actually07:57
Takit just worked as-is07:57
JoshTriplettTak: Makes sense; I guess a keyboard does work the same way. :)07:57
Takhmm - I don't suppose there's any handy-dandy implementation-independent ossolike way to adjust the volume?08:00
JoshTriplettTak: System volume?  Dunno.08:00
JoshTriplettTak: But thanks for actually using system volume, rather than an independent volume control like the media player does. :)08:01
Takdon't thank me yet ;-)08:01
imawinarit's not an issue with 770, but frequently indep volume is good08:03
imawinarfor e.g. you are playing background music and want to regulate your foreground app's volume08:04
gpdfyi - the i-blue 2 works perfectly with maemo-mapper :D08:18
gpdhad the tablet stuck to the windscreen with a universal pda adapter - and had maps on the go08:19
Takis there a list of supported devices on the mapper site?08:23
Takhooray, random reboot08:24
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imawinarnever saw that on a 77008:25
Takhmm, watchdog reset08:25
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JoshTriplettI've hit at least two of those, both when playing media.08:27
JoshTriplettI've heard some stories of DSP-related lockups on the N800.08:28
Takso the stuff in /var/lib/dsme/lifeguard_resets is what caused the watchdog to go off?08:31
Takmy fiancee says it does it when playing media08:31
Takin this case, it was just sitting there idle08:32
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timelyDo you want this directory created now [y,n,?,q] ?10:50
timely        ERROR: Please enter yes or no.10:50
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Feral_KidDoes anyone know of a good how-to to get mapper up and running properly?11:17
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tigertsearch internettablettalk forums for maemo mapper11:18
tigertit has stuff about how to set it up11:18
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Feral_Kidtigert> Thanks, just found my way over there...11:19
Feral_Kidtigert> Of course, now I have lost focus as I sit here reading about OS2007... :)11:20
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JaffaMorning, all11:23
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Feral_KidOh joy... Just when I get my 770 working somewhat decently, I find that there is no real upgrade path to enjoy OS2007...11:25
JaffaFeral_Kid: OS2007 for 770's first release happened last week (still beta, unsuported etc.)11:25
Feral_KidJaffa> Ah, I missed that...11:26
Feral_KidJaffa> internettablettalk makes it sound like OS2007 is only for the N800...11:28
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Feral_KidI do hope that they get BT working so I can finally use my headset...11:28
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Feral_KidJaffa> Thanks for that... Heh, ok... When will we get a generic VOIP client! :P11:33
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bedboihi there12:31
maddlerheya bedboi!12:33
bedboihey maddler12:33
bedboianyone is aware of wxwidget packages?12:33
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X-FadeHmm it seems that invisible input boxes are 'desired presentation for the13:06
X-Fadecurrent theme13:06
X-Fadeon Nokia N800 ;)13:06
VReIs the theme n800 giving bit more screen estate for the programs or does it only look like that?13:07
X-FadeVRe: I think even less than on 770..13:07
X-FadeVRe: The bar at the top has grown a few pixels in height..13:08
VReThat bar or left looked thinner13:08
X-FadeVRe: No, it is the same width.13:09
VeggenJaffa: btw - have I got the wrong repository, or do we still lack the mud-builder packages in the extras-repository?13:13
Veggen(been looking for them, because there's a few packages I'm waiting for, there)13:13
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keesjwho tried the it2007 on the n770?13:24
keesjis it as stable at the n880 release ?13:24
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JaffaVeggen: correct.13:26
keesjJaffa: What do you think about adding a home url / screenshot to the mud package format?13:27
tigertX-Fade: yea, the combobox is supposed to be like a line13:36
tigertX-Fade: to make it look different from the select pulldown where you cannot type13:37
tigertbut its kinda backwards, I agree13:37
tigertsince all other input fields have a frame13:37
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tigertso this one is just different13:37
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c0ffeewhat mailing list am i subscribed to now?13:41
c0ffeeand which new do i have to subscribe to13:41
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maddlerchecked google already? :D13:42
Jaffakeesj: good idea - will help when it comes to auto application-catalogue updating.13:45
X-Fadetigert: But you _can_ type in it..13:47
X-Fadetigert: it is both text input and select..13:48
X-Fadetigert: So now you have a to guess where to click if you want to type in your username.13:48
X-Fadetigert: They could at least have a different background color. So the element stands out from the rest window background?13:49
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keesjJaffa: I also want to create a small gui thing. a bit like cosy-bookmarks , but for command line programs13:53
keesjI think I want to make the home applet using lua13:54
tigertX-Fade: that is what I said13:58
tigertX-Fade: the one you cannot type in, has a frame13:58
tigertand the one that you can type in does not13:58
tigertit should just be styled differently13:58
tigertbut hey, it's all in the theme13:58
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tigertfix it and let me know how you would solve it?13:58
tigertI would perhaps just style the non-editable select widget with rounder corners or a slight gradient or something, to indicate it cannot be typed in.13:59
X-Fadetigert: Do you have the template for the default theme? Or do we need to run the reassemble util?13:59
tigertwhile the combo entry would have a slight "sunken in"  text-entry look13:59
tigertX-Fade: you have scratchbox?13:59
tigertX-Fade: svn co
X-Fadetigert: Not atm, but will setup a VM when I have time ;)14:00
tigertin sbox, fakeroot dpkg-buildpackage -tc14:00
tigertand install the hildon-theme-cacher deb;14:00
tigertX-Fade: svn co
tigertin sbox, fakeroot dpkg-buildpackage -tc14:01
tigertand install the hildon-theme-layout-3 deb14:01
tigertsvn co (note the BRANCH!, it's not trunk!)14:01
tigert-3 in all those is os200714:01
tigertedit the template in hildon-theme-plankton-3/template/template.png, then in sbox: fakeroot dpkg-buildpackage -tc14:02
X-Fadetigert: I first want to invest some more time in fixing the new maemo site. As that has some visual bugs too.14:02
tigertand you get the theme deb14:02
tigertthat you can install with application isntaller14:02
tigertI think the cacher needs redpill mode for now14:02
tigertX-Fade: yeah14:02
tigertbut well, this is how the theme template works14:02
tigert-layout- -package is only needed for building the package deb14:02
tigertcacher is needed in the device14:03
tigertfrom then on, just sketch stuff on the template,14:03
tigertsave over the old template.png14:03
X-FadeYeah, I have looked into theme editing before. MDK make some nice tools for that.14:03
tigertand re-run dpkg-buildpackage in the theme dir14:03
tigertthis whole tool setup is our work, mostly MDK's14:04
tigertthere is of course konttori's tool as well14:04
tigertwhich now should be able to use the same template and layout files14:04
X-Fadebtw. Do you know why for IT2007 the topbar was made a few pixels bigger?14:05
X-FadeSeems totally usesless to me. As the icons remainded the same size..14:05
X-FadeIt uses up even more screen estate and that is already expensive.14:06
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X-FadeAnother example is the filemanager. The un-usable screen space is not even funny. Check the tree on the left.14:07
X-FadeAt least 20% of padding to the left and right of that tree. It doesn't even leave enough space to display "Internal memory".14:09
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tigertwell yeah14:14
tigertwe are trying to get rid of the silly paddings14:14
tigertbut this all can be done now even14:14
tigertHildonWindow AFAIK is styled entirely by the gtkrc14:14
tigertso you should be able to fix these things by hand quite easily14:15
tigertmy own interest for example is to try how it would look if the right side border was gone altogether14:15
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X-FadeYeah, editing the gtkrc has been on my list too. Just need to have 48 hours in a day :)14:17
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jpeterseni try to run mono programs as described in in the scratchbox (x86 target)14:28
jpetersenit fails with a System.DllNotFoundException: gtksharpglue-214:29
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JaffaVeggen: Aha, ferenc's said there was a problem with the packages - has let me know so I'll look again shortly.14:36
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* hanno waves back.14:46
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keesjJaffa: you must ge gaining respect for people who managed to get debs in the repo every day.14:51
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tigertjpetersen: do you have gtk-sharp?14:59
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jpetersentigert: yes14:59
zuhtigert: The UI can be customized pretty far with the themes, yes. I hacked a version of (a previous version of) plankton to have 80px wide buttons for the windows (I like to use the UI with fingers ;). This of course meant that the title label got pretty narrow, but I don't really mind that.15:02
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tigertzuh: ideally all apps just remember their state, and there is no need to "minimize"15:08
tigertyou just "hide" windows15:08
tigertand the desktop handles killing unnecessary processes and brings them back up when requested15:08
tigertfor you they are just "not visible"15:08
Guardian  is it a naming error or the armel-minimal tgz file is missing ?15:09
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Jaffakeesj: certainly adds weight to the mud project's raison d'etre.15:17
Guardianoh some french in this technical world15:18
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melmothLa vie est pleine de surprises...15:18
Guardianwhich does not answer my question about a Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.2_i386-minimal-rootstrap.tgz file present in the armel-minimal directory15:19
JaffaBien sur, mais ma francais est trop mal pour les conversations interesment15:19
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Guardianyeah as surprising as this file :)15:19
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koenpapa fume une pipe15:20
Jaffakoen: il ne fume pas dans une cafe, maintainent.15:20
Jaffa(oooh, topical French :-))15:21
Guardiansensible subject for smokers here15:21
JaffaI use the word "French" somewhat loosely.15:21
sxpert-worksmoking is now banned in public places such as this channel :D15:21
Guardianat work smokers always go outside, i would be curious about people's stress when they used to smoke at their desk all the day long15:23
sp3000Guardian: file sez the i386 has arms15:27
VeggenGuardian: To me, smoking laws is a "thank god the world is finally becoming sensible"-thing.15:29
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VeggenGuardian: as to most people. Because, most people do not smoke, I think, in any country? (or is there places where more than 50% smoke?)15:31
koenVeggen: visit the middle east15:31
Guardiani would say that if it's not 50% then it's rather close to it15:32
Veggenkoen: ok. In this case, I guess only the traditional western world (Europe, North America), that is actually enacting smoking laws, that counts...15:33
koensmoking laws rub me the wrong way15:33
koenand I'm a non-smoker15:33
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koenor rather, the anti-smoking laws15:34
MoRpHeUzwhich file formats are supported by n800's media player ?15:34
Veggenkoen: I've nothing against people smoking. I just would prefer they didn't around where I am :)15:34
koenVeggen: it depends on where I am, and what their are smoking (cigarettes vs sigars)15:35
sxpert-workVeggen: yeah, also that they don't do it with that contempt look towards non-smokers15:35
koenthe company car smells like an ashtray because the former owner smoked in there15:36
koenthat annoys me15:36
koenme smelling like an ashtray after going to the pub annoys me a lot less15:36
koen(non)smoking should have guidelines instead of laws15:37
koenif you can't work it out something like that between people people it usually doesn't help to involve the police and judical system15:37
glassssguidelines don't work for bars.. they almost-always end up filled with smoke and you'll have hard time to find a non-smoking bar15:37
Veggenkoen: But seriously - every place they have enacted smoking laws, bars and restaurants have whined a lot beforehand. Then, smoking laws is enacted, and half a year later, the complaining stops short, because there's actually more people going out - and generally drinking/eating more instead of only smoking.15:39
koenI was thankfull for the smoking ban the last weeks, the regional manager would only shut up to go outside to have a smoke15:40
glassssveggen: yeah it doesn't matter in the long term that much..15:40
glasssssmokers are good at adapting15:40
glasssswhen forced15:40
Veggenglass: Mm, but you have to force them. I have stopped believing in the ability of smokers to act sensible. It's not that most smokers aren't sensible, but it's enough that a very few aren't, and the rest will gladly light up their smoke because everyone else are.15:42
pyhimysI started smoking because of the anti-smoking propaganda.15:42
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VeggenBelieve me, I'd like it if we had the kind of society where it'd be natural for a smoker to ask "excuse me, is it ok if I light my cigarette". Problem is, smokers have taken that for granted for far too long.15:43
jmspeexDoes anyone have any tip on how to order a N800 from Australia (or any country where it isn't directly sold)?15:43
jmspeexwith the developer discount I mean...15:44
Jaffajmspeex: make friends with someone in one of the anointed countries15:44
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jmspeexJaffa: I was more hoping for a link to someone that could ship it...15:45
jmspeexIs the discount only valid for the Nokia shop?15:46
X-Fadejmspeex: Yes, it is only valid for the Nokia shop..15:48
JaffaIgnore that.15:49
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* hanno has some questions regarding the N800 hardware and how to get started developing...15:54
hannoI'm wondering if the N800 is actually capable of playing 800x480 video @ 25 fps.15:57
hanno(I know the software is not - yet).15:58
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imawinarhi hanno, unlikely16:06
imawinarrough guess on my part, based on the players i know16:07
hanno__thanks, imawinar. where is the N800's bottleneck?16:07
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sklerI have successful installed non HID kb on N800 with kbdd16:07
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imawinari don't think the cpu could handle it16:08
imawinarhow big of a sd card can the 800 take?16:09
mgedminofficially 2 gb16:09
mgedminsome 4 gb cards work16:10
mgedminthere's an updated kernel that supports sdhc cards16:10
hanno__imawinar: So far, up to 2 GB. SDHC is reported to be working with an unofficial patch, which would enable 16 GB and more.16:10
hanno__imawinar: I guess that the CPU is quite fast enough for certain codecs, e.g. it should be able to decode DVD MPEG 2 video. No?16:11
jmspeexhanno__: actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the DSP part of the OMAP was able to decode 800x480 in real time (with a very optimised decoder).16:11
hanno__jmspeex: I wouldn't be surprised, either, but does anybody know before I start learning DSP development? ;-)16:12
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hanno__Would be pretty stupid to try and then finding out that it's utterly useless to learn that.16:13
imawinargoing to the screen that's 22 MB per second at 30 fps16:13
hanno__imawinar: yes, that's why i am asking if the hardware is able to handle that kind of data transfer, at all.16:14
imawinarif you can code at that level, then write something to test the raw throughput16:16
jmspeexhanno__: consider that the main bottleneck would probably be the memory bandwidth, not the computing power.16:17
jmspeexSo if it fits in the memory bandwidth, it can probably run in real time.16:18
hanno__well, it's easy to dream this up. i'll dig into some developer documents to find out if there's any chance to learn that in reasonable time.16:20
bedboianyone is aware of wxwidgets packages?16:22
|tbb|heya where can i get the source of the rss-news-feed-reader applet of maemo3?16:25
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keesjbedboi: did you package wxwidgets of do you want somebody to package it?16:45
Jaffakeesj: MUD packages (irssi, links, cal and netcat) going through upload process (again).16:46
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tzzhas anyone been able to use evince with .cbz packages on the N800?  I have unzip installed, but .cbz files are not shown in the file selector.17:05
tzz(cbz == comic booc zipped archives, basically a zip of images)17:06
tzzin case anyone is interested, .CBR archives work fine, and are rendered very well17:07
tzzI'll submit a bug, just curious if I was the only one :)17:08
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Takdoes it actually use the zip command, or does it use libz or something?17:09
tzztak: don't know, but sinze etrunko provided the unzip command as part of his evince N800 package, I would assume it uses unzip17:10
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tzzI'll just e-mail him, no big deal.17:11
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* mgedmin emits some hate packets towards people responsible for nokia webshops-that-refuse-to-sell-stuff17:24
Takthey probably have router-level blocking for IHP packets17:25
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hanno__Jaffa, are you there? Or am I using the private message command wrong in this IRC client?17:26
mgedminhanno__: freenode does not allow you to send private messages until you register and identify with nickserv17:27
* hanno__ discovers the message saying so in the hidden window...17:28
keesjJaffa: I added a few cool packages lately17:28
keesjx11vnc so that you can export / record the display, and and a wiiremote client17:28
keesjI played My first wii remote enabled xmoto game yesterday17:29
Takkeesj: ooo!  how was it?17:31
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everaldoMDK, ping17:36
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keesjTak: alright , not supper becasue it's is not the best game for that , but the package simply implements a uninput device (and can also be used as mouse)17:36
* zulla is back, now registered.17:36
* zulla used to be hanno.17:36
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keesjNow I am spending some time to try to make a nice demo , tigert showed me a game what would be more suitable, but I forgot the name17:38
maddlerany clue on getting Evince to work on N800?17:39
tzzmaddler: etrunko posted a link to it for the N800, did you see it?17:40
tzzit works for me, I just sent a followup to the maemo-users list with some minor problems17:40
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maddlertzz no...17:41
maddlerlemme check...17:41
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maddlertzz: any clue on the subject?17:44
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* behdad watches the n770 in the wifi ad at Logan airport17:47
garretttoo bad Logan doesn't have free wifi (at least that I'm aware of)17:49
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bedboilol, amule works on n80017:50
garrettit's too much money to pay for a day pass when one will be there for 30 minutes17:50
tzzgarrett: they do, just one ariline I believe17:50
|tbb|bedboi: true?17:50
bedboii've ported it right now17:50
garrettI must fly that airline17:50
bedboi|tbb|: yep17:50
tzzgarrett: they had a big fight with the Logan administration about it17:50
bedboi|tbb|: obviously with webserver17:50
bedboibut that's enough17:50
tzzmaddler: did you find the evince N800 package?17:50
* mgedmin imagines that nokia webshop job applications have a checkbox "sadistic inclinations", and people who do not check it are not employed17:51
|tbb|bedboi, where to get the install packages17:52
garrettpaying $8 for half an hour to an hour is crazy -- especially when considering that's 1/4 of my monthly payment for 'Net access at home17:52
bedboiehehe, there are no packages for now17:52
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|tbb|so how do u get it to run then17:54
shanahi everyone17:54
Jaffakeesj: I saw  - very cool :)17:55
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keesjJaffa: perhaps that every time we have 10 extra packages we can send a mail to the mud user list with a list of new stuff17:56
shanaare apps ported for OS2006 able to run in OS2007?17:56
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shanaand can someone point me to where I can find information about flashing the n800 in case of...errmm... I blow it up with some bad install? :)17:57
keesjsaerdnaer: most of them are17:57
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kkitoshana, :)18:00
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shanata, kkito :)18:01
soleblazeYou flash the maemo by running by it's rather easy.18:01
soleblazeshana: do you use windows or linux/os x?18:01
Taksoleblaze: that just causes mine to burst into flame18:02
shanasoleblaze: but then it'd go into shock and start rebooting endlessly... wouldn't help none :p18:02
shanasoleblaze: first 218:02
soleblazeshana: mine's only done that three times.18:02
kkitoTak, I ported a cps2 emu to the n800 ;)18:02
maddlertzz: yup... found...18:02
soleblazeshana: ok.  Sometimes it skrews up to the point where you have to use an rd flag (and you can't do that in windows)18:02
Takkkito: cool - what's cps2? :-P18:02
soleblazecps2 is an arcade chipset18:02
shanasoleblaze: mine has been heroically widthstading my persistent prodding18:02
soleblazecapcom something something18:02
TakI see18:03
shanasoleblaze: ah, rd flag, must remember that18:03
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shanathx soleblaze18:03
Takare you going to port every component of xmame separately? ;-)18:03
soleblazethere's a few emulators that just do cps18:03
Takyeah, it looks like the "compact" version of xmame doesn't do cps218:04
kkitoTak, xmame is all plain c, and it is slow :(18:05
soleblazeugh I can't remember the tells it to turn the boot protection off18:06
kkitogngeo and my cps2 emu port are programmed using arm asm, and are really fast :)18:06
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soleblazeI remember having problems running cps2 games on an 800mhz c318:06
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kkitosoleblaze, cps2 emu is running at 30-40 fps on my n800, with sound enabled :D18:07
soleblaze./flasher --set-rd-flags=no-lifeguard-reset18:07
soleblazekkito: nice18:07
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soleblazeyou need to do that if you flash it and it's still going into a rbeoot loop18:08
shanasoleblaze: cool, thx18:08
shanaI predict a future where that might be necessary :p18:08
soleblazethen after it boots up you need to use the flasher ./flasher --clear-rd-flags=no-lifeguard-reset --disable-rd-mode18:08
soleblazean older version of maemo mapper caused me to have to do that18:08
|tbb|soleblaze what cps2 is good for18:09
||cwc3 is the via chip?18:09
soleblaze||cw: yeah18:09
soleblaze|tbb|: it has the d&d games, a buncha fighters, giga wing18:09
||cwI recall the 600 c3 being compaired as equal to a celeron 30018:10
kkitosuper puzzle fighter :)18:10
soleblazeyeah I think they said the 800 was about 500mhz18:10
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soleblazekkito: haha I forgot about that game18:10
glasssscps2 .. very nice!18:11
soleblazec7 is a much nicer c3 is now my firewall18:11
kkitosoleblaze, if you want i can send to you my cps2emu binary18:11
glasssslots of nice games on cps218:11
soleblazeI don't think my dcc is working correctly18:11
soleblazethough i guess it's small enough to email eh?  soulblaze@gmail.com18:12
|tbb|where to find that emulator and roms18:12
soleblazeroms? torrents for mame roms..emulator..i guess from kkito lol18:12
soleblazekkito: thanks18:12
soleblazeI gotta get to work..I'm already half an hour late lol18:13
soleblazeluckily no one cares..or is that unluckily18:13
Takkkito: is it open-source?18:13
kkitoTak, yes18:14
Takwould you email me your modified source?18:15
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kkitoTak, the hack is very primitive and i dont want to make it public for now, but i will do it18:20
Takare you going to make a more polished version?18:20
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bedboiis load-apple-run supposed to work with 3.0 ?18:24
keesj 30-40 fps !18:26
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kkitocan you access to ?18:32
kkitoTak, and now?18:33
bedboikkito: it's ok here18:34
kkitowell here you have the cps2emu binary, the tool to do the cache files and some instructions to run the emu18:35
Takeek - how large is the binary unpacked?18:35
kkitosoleblaze, i cannot send to you the email, if you want you can grab the emu from there
kkito556,7 KB18:36
kkitobut it is for the n800 not 77018:36
* Tak nods18:36
Takwhat's in the zip then?  29M of source?18:37
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kkitoohh sorry there some .chache fies...18:38
kkitoi am goint do do another zip file18:39
kkitodownload cps2emumaemo2.zip18:40
kkitonot the cps2emumaemo.zip18:40
bedboihow to get screenshots on bora?18:42
kkitoand if you want the roms ...
kkitobut i dont know if it is legal18:43
tzzhas anyone compiled libpcre3-dev yet?  I want zsh and libpcre3-dev is a prerequisute, but I don't want to waste my time if it's already been compiled.  It doesn't work straight from source.18:44
keesjkkito: are you doing some gp2x dev?18:47
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inztzz, I have, nginx required it18:47
Takkkito: got it btw, thanks18:47
kkitokeesj, no, :P18:48
inztzz, in repository18:48
keesjinz I miss the open url in my default desktop xterm :p (I think there are working alternatives)18:49
inzkeesj, I use gnome-terminal, from which the url regexes are shamelessly copied from ;)18:50
keesjinz for me gnome is like windows , I try in once a year because I forgot how happy I was with my current desktop18:52
inzkeesj, at work I use gnome with fvwm, which is quite nice18:52
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Pioinz, i used to do that.. does fvwm integrate pretty well with gnome's desktop management now?  i stopped using it because a few bad bugs at the time18:54
Piothe workspace switcher and window list were unusable18:55
inzPio, i don't use gnome desktop, nor panels18:55
Pioyeah, thats the answer i usually get when i ask that :)18:55
tzzinz: thanks, I'll add it to my scratchbox18:55
everaldoshana, ping18:55
Piothats all i really use gnome for.. heh18:55
* mgedmin loves gnome18:55
Pioi like fvwm just for the strict control you have.. metacity has gotten a little better by adding some gconf keys that let you make it less atrocious but it still has some evil things18:56
tzzinz: do you want to build zsh yourself or should I do it?  It should compile straight out of the source, at least it did for me.18:56
inztzz, I can do it too...18:56
tzzinz: that would be great, I look forward to it.  zsh is very good for N800/770 because it's very economical for find-type operations.18:57
tzze.g. ls **/*.rar instead of find . -name "*.rar"18:57
tzzand zmv is just wonderful18:58
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keesjinz: the real problem is that I am seriouly getting adicted to wmii as window manager19:01
bedboiso nobody here can take screenshots with n800?19:01
keesjbedboi: sorry only movies :p19:02
Takno osso-screenshot-tool on n800?19:02
real-devbedboi: found out this afternoon
real-devworks on my n80019:02
zullabedboi: I am using osso-screenshot-tool on my N800.19:03
bedboizulla: where did you get it?19:05
zullabedboi: "apt-get install" and I was ready to go.19:05
kulvethat uses osso-screenshot-tool too19:06
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__smokeheyhey, anyone ever tried to run "free pascal crosscompiled executables" in maemo, i got the xcompile working (win32->arm/elf binary) but i get "-sh: ./test: Permission denied" trying to run a simple "hello world"19:19
Takchmod 755 ./test ?19:20
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keesjchmod +x ./test19:21
__smokestill same...the test binary has -rwxr-xr-x flags, i'm a bit linux nub so i dont know what those meant19:21
__smokei'll try the +x19:21
keesjis the same..19:21
keesjdid you put in on the mmc?19:22
jcml_mmc is mounted noexec19:22
__smokethat explains alot :p19:22
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__smokeomg, it works !19:23
kkitoTak, i put another cps2emu.maemo binary please download the last, the version that you downloaded before have a bug.19:23
__smokeso cool19:23
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__smokeso, just a notice, freepascal compiler can produce runnable elf/arm binaries xcomiling them on win32 platform :)19:24
__smoke<3 pascal19:24
Takkkito: grabbing19:25
kkitoTak :)19:25
||cwthis looks a lot like maemo
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__smokeyeh, except i havent found any nice themes that exploit alpha on widgets :p19:26
Takeven the double-arrow at the bottom of the app bar19:27
__smokereally hate it that my ip widget obscures the background, it took me goddam 2 hours to find the background image !19:27
__smoken800 looks better than that, all plasticy that device19:29
||cw  it's $490 in lots of 500 as well...19:30
mgedminlooks very maemo-ish19:31
jcml_It /is/ maemo, n'est pas?19:31
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Takjcml_: I agree19:31
__smokethey have some icons at the bottom of the screen, havent seen those in maemo19:32
||cwthat wouldn't be that hard to amke with a desktop widjet though19:32
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||cwgprs as well19:33
mgedmin7" screen, so not pocket-sized19:34
__smoke7" screen, that's a bit larger than nokias, sounds inconviniently large19:34
||cwno, but 770/n800 sized19:35
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||cwi thought the 770 was 7"?19:35
keesjthey have the buttons on the "right" side19:35
Takkeesj: I know!  totally unsuited for gaming! :-P19:35
__smokethink 770 is about 5" diagonally ?19:35
||cwi forget19:36
__smokethe whole device19:36
||cwyeah, dunno why i thought it was 719:37
Tak6.41" diagonal19:37
||cwscreen or whole thing?19:37
Takwhole thing19:37
__smokeso, once they invent 7" fitting rear pockets on jeans, i'll go with nokia19:37
||cwso like 5-5.5" screen19:37
shanaif only it didn't look so much like a transistor radio...19:38
||cwmy 770 fits in my back pocket just fine19:38
Taktoo bad they didn't bump up the resolution for the larger screen19:38
__smokemade in taiwan, they still have the 80s transistor radio plastic molding lines running, no need to replace, just costs money :p19:38
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mgedminisn't the n770 screen 4.1" or something?19:39
__smokeneed i get a measuring tape...where'd i put that thing :/19:40
garrett__smoke: the device is just about the size of a DS Lite, but a ltitle thinner19:41
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garrettand both are very pock-fitting for me, at least in my pockets19:41
__smoken800 has a 10.7cm screen, diagonally, think the 770 is same19:41
__smokeso you go imperial on 10.7cm19:41
__smokedont have a converter in my n800, cant calculate, eek, error error19:42
__smokeso, 4.2" vs 7"...that's quite a bit larger19:43
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shanaok, now this is weird...  and
timelyso, anyone here familiar w/ apt-get?19:44
|tbb|tak have u got cps2emu.maemo running?19:44
mgedmintimely: what's your question?19:45
timelyi'm trying to use apt-get --download-only to grab some big meta package19:45
|tbb|ive tried it but i dont get it to run19:45
timelyi've added things like --allow-unauthenticated and --fix-missing19:45
timelyand a bunch of others19:45
TakI don't have an n800 yet ;-)19:45
timelybut i keep getting "The following packages have unmet dependencies"19:45
timelyE: Broken packages19:46
|tbb|ah k19:46
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timelyall i want is for apt-get to download the package(s) i specify and all dependent packages19:46
__smokewell, godda go, byebye19:46
timelyand this is for an automated process, and i don't really want to hack around it, i'm fully capable of doing that, but that isn't the point :)19:46
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mgedminwell, it looks like apt-get is unable to find all the dependent packages19:47
mgedminmaybe your sources.list is incomplete19:47
timely$ apt-get --download-only gtk2-engines-sapwood19:48
timely  gtk2-engines-sapwood: Depends: libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2:2.6.10-1.osso8) but it is not going to be installed19:48
timely                        Depends: libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.8.1) but it is not going to be installed19:48
s-ndh-cwow now mono works in scratchbox19:48
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timely$ apt-get --download-only libgtk2.0-019:48
timelyDownload complete and in download only mode19:48
mgedmintimely, is that in scratchbox or in the device?19:48
timely$ apt-get --download-only libpango1.0-019:49
timelyDownload complete and in download only mode19:49
mgedminwhen it downloads libgtk2.0-0, what version does it download?19:49
timely:( i'm missing my gpg file19:51
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timelywell at least that explains why i have the unauthenticated thing19:51
s-ndh-calp: do you have a maemo 2.X compatible hildon binding ready?19:53
s-ndh-cjust managed to get mono working in scratchbox19:53
timelywhich i think is newer than 2:2.6.10-1.osso819:53
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* Tak tries to picture scsharp on an n80019:54
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s-ndh-cguess i will just checkout the svn code and see if it works19:54
|tbb|is ruby available at n80019:55
* mgedmin scratches head19:56
mgedminapparently I do not understand apt-get19:56
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xanMDK, ping20:03
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Veggenmgedmin: problems?20:04
mgedminas a matter of fact, yes20:05
mgedminnokia won't sell me my n80020:05
mgedminbut if you were asking about apt-get, then the problem is timely's, not mine20:05
Veggenhmmf. I should get a better way of sorting old mail.20:06
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VeggenOnce again, I have to open the big (probably 200.000 messsages now) pile of unsorted inbox-mail.20:07
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Veggenis there any good command-line, maildirgrep? I'd like that.20:09
mukundjust use grep20:10
Veggenbut I'll need to do it together with find. grep/the shell isn't that happy with several 100k files :)20:11
||cweven grep -r?20:12
mgedminthere's grepmail20:13
||cwpretty sure I've grep'd my whole desktop before20:13
mgedminI don't remember if it handles maildirs20:13
mgedminit does handle mailboxes20:13
Veggenmgedmin: only mailboxes, it seems.20:13
mgedmingrep -r foo /path/to/maildir then20:14
Veggenyah, but some nice packaging would be nice. I actually liked mh-tools, that way.20:15
alps-ndh-c: i've been checking my work into nbind ( -- it builds, but i need to make a tweak before it will work20:16
alpyou can try building it and start to review the api if you want20:16
s-ndh-calp: so i run autogen in nbind dir?20:16
alpit has a custom build system. just 'make' in nbind/hildon should do20:17
s-ndh-cok will try that20:17
s-ndh-calp: i just build that on my host or inside scratchbox?20:18
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alphost will do for now, there's no unmanaged glue (yet, and hopefully never)20:18
timelymgedmin: pong?20:19
s-ndh-cthx will try and see if it works for me20:20
alpit only covers the hildon-1 MDK linked to in his blog right now. i need to find out what api should be covered (things have changed since 2005)20:20
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timelyveggen: what are you trying to do?20:20
s-ndh-calp: i see20:20
* timely uses glimpse for some things and there's an imap daemon w/ very good searching available20:21
* timely thinks it's cmu's20:21
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Takafternoon kender20:23
kenderhey Tak ;-)20:23
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Veggentimely: oh, just trying to find a handful of specific mails from a very large mailbox ;)20:25
Veggen(will need to search, though)20:25
Takanybody on mistral want to try the efp package from garage extras?  (requires fceu)20:25
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Veggenhmm, just 113k mail. not as bad as I though.20:25
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VeggenOnce mutt has opened it, it's not bad at all to use mutt for it.20:26
timelyveggen: your large inbox can't match mine :)20:26
kendertigert, efp?20:26
timelyveggen: but seriously, glimpse or the cmu imap server would work for you20:26
* timely wouldn't really recommend glimpse20:27
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mgedminofflineimap + moving 80 megs from one maildir to another (16k messages) == a week20:27
timelyspeaking of which20:27
timelyanyone wanna place odds on pine or mutt keeling over dead if i ask them top open my inbox? :)20:28
Takefp is a dfsg-free nes game20:29
mgedminI'm sure mutt will happily chug along and open it... in about half an hour20:29
inztzz, I've packaged the zsh, but it seems to not work too well...20:29
Tak"Escape From Pong"20:29
mgedminnow, if your tried to open it with the 770's built-in mail client...20:29
timelyinz: aww20:29
* timely loves zsh20:29
tigertmgedmin: friends don't let friends..20:30
inztigert, mutt?-)20:30
tigertmutt is fine20:30
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s-ndh-calp: it doesnt build, maybe because my hosts gtk-sharp install is 2.10?20:31
timelyveggen: if you're going to have an inbox like that, i'd suggest using screen20:31
timelyleave your mail client always open20:31
timelyit'll save you the pain of opening it later :)20:31
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alps-ndh-c: any errors to pastebin?20:33
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|tbb|screen available for n80020:35
alps-ndh-c: interesting. i've only tried with mono/gtk# svn20:36
s-ndh-calp: its ubuntu edgys packages20:36
timelytbb: well20:37
timelyssh'ing to a screen server makes more sense20:37
timelywhat's the point of running screen locally?20:37
s-ndh-cbut i can test against svn to see if its that20:37
|tbb|thats true20:37
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s-ndh-cyeah thats how i run my irssi20:40
alps-ndh-c: Gtk.Widget has a method Activate() but Hildon.Caption has an event called Activate it seems, and for some reason your compiler doesn't like it and mine deals with it20:41
alp(and Hildon.Caption is a subclass of Gtk.Widget)20:41
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alpso in this situation, it's best to remap the event name to something like "Activated", but we should also find out which of our compilers is broken20:43
alps-ndh-c: we should make sure our generated sources are the same too of course20:44
alpso pass me your Caption.cs20:44
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s-ndh-calp: here is my Caption.cs
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alps-ndh-c: just wrote a test case,
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kenderhey maddler20:55
maddlerheya kender...20:55
s-ndh-calp: yeah my mcs doesnt like that20:56
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kenderIf I make a program that plays audio files using Gstreamer, the program is going to be using the DSP while playing the file?20:59
koendepends on your pipeline21:01
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kenderkoen, explain me that please21:01
kenderthe file is a mp321:01
koenif you tell gstreamer to use the mpg123 plugin it would use the dsp21:01
kenderI see21:02
s-ndh-calp: will try with svn head21:02
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kenderso, the best way of going it, is using gstreamer and the mpg123 plugin?21:02
inzif you tell gstreamer to use the mp3sink, then it would use the dsp21:04
alps-ndh-c: fix is in svn21:04
kenderso, which is the best way?21:04
alps-ndh-c: i just added an api mapping to nhildon, no need to upgrade. i'll find out more about the change in mcs21:05
kenderif I want to do a mp3 player for maemo, what will be the best option?21:05
hubkender: use gstreamer21:06
s-ndh-calp: ok will try again21:06
kenderyes, hub , which with plugin?21:07
kender*with which21:07
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kenderI mean, for using the hardware at top level...21:08
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s-ndh-c-rwxr-xr-x 1 michi michi  65K 2007-02-05 20:08 nhildon.dll .. it worked21:09
s-ndh-calp:i just put the hildon.dll in the same dir as the app right?21:10
kendertwo of them are inside the original firmware image?21:11
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|tbb|for what is that nhildon.dll good for?21:12
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s-ndh-calp: thx will try if i can get your sample app working, would be realy great if we could code hildonized apps in c# :)21:14
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alps-ndh-c: you will need to add a dllmap to the config file from "hildon-1" to the right name, which i don't know ye21:16
s-ndh-calp: ok will see if i can figure that out21:17
s-ndh-cbut first iam going to get me something to eat21:17
alpright. screenshot if you get anything working. i notice Hildon.App(lication?) etc. are not around any more21:18
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timelyanyone here familiar w/ maemo mapper?21:38
nelsontimely: somewhat.  What's your question.21:39
shana8testing out the xchat app on n80021:39
timelygoogle maps has a saved locations feature21:39
timelycan maemo mapper download those locations? :)21:39
shana8this work pretty well21:39
||cwshana8: of course it does, it's xchat21:40
shana8no zoom though21:40
shana8and the startup dialogue wont let me write on rhe channel name21:41
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shana8but pretty god so far21:41
shana8his the zoom feature exclusive of the n800?21:42
tzzinz: I can test zsh if you want.  Did you have to change a lot in the source, or just compile it as expected?21:44
tzzinz: drop me a link or send me the .deb at tzz@lifelogs.com21:45
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||cwshana8: it's application dependant on how to handle the zoom toggle21:47
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nelsontimely: not that I know of.21:48
shana8oh, ok, so xchat doesn't handle zooming21:49
nelsontimely: maemo-mapper has a POI catalog, and I'm sure that you could import the saved locations into maemo-mapper, but the code doesn't exist to do it.21:49
timelynelson: i've already lost one POI catalog21:51
timelybecause the system backup software didn't "back up my settings"21:51
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* timely returns to looking for someone adventurous enough to claim to understand apt :)21:52
Takthere's always #debian ;-)21:52
timelyi tried21:52
Taktry on oftc?21:52
timelythey didn't notice me and i'm not sure i really have the scrollback to filter out the dozens of other questions :(21:53
timelysmall screen :)21:53
nelsonHrm.  Yeah, unfortunately, the "Application Catalog" is a work in progress.21:53
nelsonNo, wait, I mean, "It still needs work".  Having it be a work in progress is a *good* thing.  Much better than being broken AND fixed in stone.21:53
Takimo it's less broken than the previous21:54
nelsonindeed, yes.21:55
nelson(but the idea of multiple repos is not good.)21:56
acidborgwhat programs can other people use to videotalk with my n800?21:56
acidborgI mean, google talk for PC doesn't allow videotalk ...21:56
Taknelson: you mean mistral/scirocco/gregale/bora ?21:57
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Molagianyone got mplayer working good on n800 yet?21:58
Molagifreezes all the time on me21:58
kenderlast version?21:59
Molagiwhat is the latest21:59
nelsonTak: no, more along the application line.  I can understand that Nokia wants a bright line between "Nokia-supported" and "Community-supported" installations.22:00
nelsonTak: but that only gives cause for two repos.22:00
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nelsonTak: I'm opinionated here, but ... I think that to give the best support, you want to minimize the number of interactions with the victim^H^H^H^H^H^Huser.22:01
nelsonFirst question should be ``Click here and tell me if it says "Nokia or Community" ''.22:02
Takisn't that what garage extras vs tableteer is?22:02
nelsonI see no committment (from anybody) to have only two repos.22:03
timelywhere does the third party nokia software live today?22:04
nelsonIf the answer is "Nokia", then the community sends them to NOkia.  If "Community", then Nokia sends them to us.22:04
nelsontimely: if I could wave a magic wand, the answer would be "Go into Application Catalog and add the community repo URL, which is http://XYZ".22:05
Takthere's no reason for that not to be garage extras22:06
timelyhrm, the thing i was thinking of lives in
timelynelson: by third party nokia22:07
timelyi mean that there's a nokia group that isn't the group that makes the 77022:07
timelyand they wrote software (mediastreamer) for the 77022:07
timelyto me they're a very confusing third party22:08
timely(2nd party is of course you, and calling them 4th party is just wrong)22:08
tolgamhave you seen this : doesn't it reminds you an other UI ? :)22:12
mgedminnice transparency effects, though22:14
tkoerr.. not even close. for one the rss applet and arrow keys are on the right hand side22:15
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kaatisi mailed them and asked if i could buy a developer device :)22:17
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|tbb|_i followed the instructions of to install maemo3 on a debian system now i became following error while trying to install the sdk kit22:25
|tbb|_E: Scratchbox version is too old (scratchbox-core ).22:25
|tbb|_E: The minimum required scratchbox-core version is
|tbb|_apt-get install scratchbox-core tells me i allready got the newest version:/22:26
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sbaturzio|tbb|: try with the script22:27
|tbb|_if runned that before22:27
sbaturzio|tbb|: on my Debian/Unstable worked fine22:28
tolgamsame for me on an arch22:29
mgedminsbaturzio: from where did you get scratchbox? (i.e. what's the line in /etc/apt/sources.list)?22:29
sbaturziomgedmin: the script downloaded and installed it for me22:30
sbaturziono changes in sources.list22:30
mgedminthe 3.0 script?22:30
mgedminor an older script?22:30
mgedminyou can get the latest version of scratchbox from deb ./22:31
sbaturziothe script here:
sbaturziojust download the script and execute it22:31
mgedminI installes scratchbox myself with apt-get before I ran the bora install script22:32
mgedminit worked for me that way22:32
kaatis|tbb|_, if you installed to path other than /scratchbox and you have old scratchbox in /scratchbox then you need to give new install path with -s argument22:32
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|tbb|_i have removed it now22:32
|tbb|_try to download it again22:33
|tbb|_way to go22:33
kaatis|tbb|_, per default the installer checks the version in /scratchbox22:33
MoRpHeUzn800's Media player supports which formats of videos ?22:33
MoRpHeUzjust mp4 ?22:34
|tbb|_ive runned the installer with -d option22:34
mgedminI'm sure it supports more22:34
mgedminand I'm sure it supports not enough22:34
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s-ndh-cwb MDK22:35
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shanacan I mount samba shares in the n800?22:37
s-ndh-calp: i think the its hildonprogam in 2.x and above22:38
tkoMDK, does this remind you of something? :)
jobiwhat a brilliant UI!22:38
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MDKgreat desktop metaphor22:39
MDKI wish we could have it22:39
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MoRpHeUzmgedmin: I'm trying to stream a video using vlc to it..22:40
||cwshana: if the kernel has smbfs and/or cifs drivers, yes22:40
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MoRpHeUzmgedmin: it keeps buffering (full fills  the bar 3 times) and then it stops for no reason (no video or audio is played)22:41
shanaso what's the meaning of "Unknown Device" error?22:41
shanabecause smbclient can connect to the share22:41
MDKI think they just ripped of the hildon ui ideas etc.22:41
MDKsomehow I can't believe they run maemo desktop et all22:41
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Taklot of work for them to recreate that much detail from scratch22:43
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tkowell, it's fairly safe to copy nokia brand22:45
tkoprobably much cheaper than trying to come up with your own rational design22:46
keesjmaemo does not look like anything nokia has done in the past right?22:46
keesjbut yes , always better to embrace!22:47
MDKhmm, there was this touchscreen phone22:47
jobithey have alpha in the home applets, we don't22:47
tkoit actually evolved from a phone22:47
keesj(the evolution thing)22:48
MDKnoki a771022:48
jobimarius had that one for a while22:48
keesjWe have such a phone at work22:48
jobihe asked to change because it was really too bad22:49
MDKtigert brought it one day22:49
MDKyeah, it's really bad22:49
jobiyou can feel the KS touch in the UI ;)22:49
keesjthe problem we had is that non of the existing midlet where ready to run on such a large screen22:49
keesjI think the h9 is closer to the 770 :p22:51
tkowas it the 800x480 screen that made you think so?22:51
tkoor the UI?22:51
tkoor ... :)22:51
roope:D that's great!22:52
roopeIt even has the triangles >>.22:52
tkodon't remind me22:52
roopeThen again, it's totally different. It has four plugins, we have three. Plus it has the time at the end of them.22:52
jobiso it must be a pda22:53
tkoand the arrow keys and the rss applet are on the right side, we have them on the left.. clearly a different thing22:53
keesjtko, for me it it the application launcher on the left , that is really something I don't really like on the maemo, and it it there , again22:53
keesjI understand that you lose less space if you put it left or right (480x20 < 800 x 20)22:54
keesjtko, I was searching for that exact fim :p22:55
tigertmaemo looks a LOT like the 7710 ui22:56
tigertand I have one on my desk at work, charging it22:56
tigertits cute in that way22:56
tigertlooks very familiar22:56
tigertbut its symbian afaik22:56
glassss7710 is symbian22:57
glassss"series90" though they buried that name22:57
roopeSeries 90 symbian.22:57
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nelsonI was playing with my N800 at a King's Singers performance yesterday, and the two young women behind me kept making loud remarks about how cool the N800 was and were pointedly wondering what it was.22:57
glasssscoded one presentation for it..22:57
nelsonUnfortunately, their ardor cooled once they found out it cost $400.22:57
roopeMy friends are actually suprised about that price, they expect it to cost even more.22:58
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roope(Not suprised in a way that they would rush out to but it, but still.)22:58
roopebuy it.22:58
tigertnelson: better $400 than $1000 for an UMPC22:58
garretta lot of people were asking me about it over the weekend22:58
glassssit looks more expensive, having a high res screen etc you don't see in cheap devices22:59
garrettthey were all interested in it22:59
garrettlike some are computer geeks too22:59
|tbb|_how can i check scratchbox-core version22:59
tigertmy N800 rebooted several times today :(22:59
tigertbut not in a loop22:59
tigertneed to see what happened23:00
tigertit has been pretty stable so far23:00
tigertI installed maemo mapper since23:00
garretttigert: I've had a reboot loop twice23:00
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tigertgarrett: yeah, people are looking at the reboot loops23:00
garrettbut thankfully it stopped on the second and third time23:00
tigerttrying to find the cause, its being taken fairly seriously23:00
garrettand then some random reboots too23:00
garrettgood to know23:00
garrettI have since turned off the rss stuff, and that seems to make things a little more stable23:01
garrettit could be a placebo too23:01
keesjtigert, my problems started after wanting to use maemo mapper , I have put the sd card in the slot ,23:01
nelsonyeah, but I'm in the USA .... it says "Nokia" so they 1) expect it to be a cellphone, and 2) expect it to cost $50.23:01
tigertnelson: yeah :(23:01
garrettnelson: heh, yeah, that's what everyone asked, "Oh, so it's a Nokia -- so it's a cellphone?"23:01
tigertthe darn bundles23:01
nelsonI long for the day when bundles die.23:01
tigert"AAAAAaand it's a PHONE TOO!!"23:02
tigertnelson: they just started in Finland even23:02
tigertfor 3G phones one can do bundles23:02
tigertit used to be illegal before23:02
nelsonNNNNNOOOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!!!!    Your poor country.23:02
garrettI said, "No, it's not really a phone, but there is software available that lets you do voip stuff, like gizmo -- and skype is coming out 'soonish'."23:02
nelsonSell stock in Finland.  It's all going down the tubes.23:02
garrettI think they still think it's a phone though d:23:02
roopeIt should be NOtaphonekIA23:02
garrettNOKIA Notaphone80023:03
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sxpertjust like NOKIA Everythingbutaphone6123:03
tigertI wish phones were phones23:04
tigertand tablets were tablets23:04
Veggengarret: I kept telling a guy that it wasn't a phone, and that it had wifi and bluetooth for communication. And demonstrated it in a restaurant...and after having tried it, he was dissapointed that it didn't use the GSM for network more automatically...."well, it doesn't have GSM"..."oh...but it's a Nokia?" "Yes, but not a phone"23:04
tigertwell, tablets are tablets23:04
glassssyou can buy phones that are phones if you really wish.. thing is that they just suck23:04
glassss1110's are available for under 40bucks or something23:04
glassssetc etc23:04
|tbb|_ive runned the script a second time, still it wont install me the sdk it23:04
Veggenglasss: that said, it wouldn't have sucked if it was like now *and* had GSM built-in.23:04
tigertbut my ideal phone would be the 550023:04
sxpertVeggen, I showed it to some old (60+) friend of mine coming out of the swimming pool... grabbed some open wifi connection and started browsing away :D23:04
|tbb|_E: Scratchbox version is too old (scratchbox-core )23:05
roopeThe tablet - phone thing is actually strange. Even if it would be a phone, would I replace my current phone with it? No, it's too large. Then, would I get two phone accounts, two SIM cards? Definitely not.23:05
tigertwaterproof, EDGE, bluetooth23:05
tigertand a 2megapixel camera23:05
|tbb|_apt-get install scratchbox-core says it is the latest allready23:05
roopeSo ... why exactly should it be a phone?23:05
tigertand its SMALL!23:05
tigertfor a recent nokia phone23:06
garrettI'd like a bluetooth phone so I could at least back up my contacts23:06
tigertthey get so huge :(23:06
tigertI want this kind of thing to talk with on the GSM network and to use it to get to the net with the tablet23:06
garrettI hate Verizon ):23:06
tigertI would never want to "sidetalk" with a N80023:06
tigertthat'd be just the silliest looking log ever23:06
|tbb|_could anyone help23:07
roopeThen again operators wouldn't mind to sell a dedicated separate line/number just for the tablet, but.23:07
garrettbluetooth headphone support for the N800 would be nice23:07
tigertroope: yeah, it doesnt make sense23:07
MDKon the other hand, I noticed I'm using phone less and less23:07
garrettor maybe auto speaker-to-the-ear setting for voip software23:07
MDKI used to do a lot of gsm and sms few years ago23:07
MDKbut nowadays I do like one call each 3 days23:08
MDKsometimes even less23:08
MDKalmost no sms23:08
garrett(like go mono with only one speaker, and make it quieter)23:08
MDKIM and e-mail has taken over the with-friends communications23:08
MDKbut maybe it's just me23:08
garrettMDK: yeah, it's just you23:08
garrettI think that's basically what happens a lot23:08
everaldohey MDK23:09
garrettpeople are basically doing IM and SMS because phones are too expensive and the customer service & plans with phone companies suck23:09
MDKhey everaldo23:09
garrettand email too, although more and more younger people are doing IM and SMS more than email23:09
everaldoMDK, have you seen my comment in your blog?23:09
kaatis|tbb|_, what does "/scratchbox/tools/bin/sb-conf version" tell23:10
keesjI am just getting old and don't go out that often23:10
garrettoh, and myfacebookspacetube-ish sorts of stuff23:10
MDKeveraldo: yeah, cool23:10
MDKeveraldo: the hildon-1 is kinda significantly modified23:10
MDKwe dropped a lot of old API's etc.23:10
everaldoMDK, yes... I must update files23:10
MDKif there are problems with the gapi parser or something -- scream ;)23:11
|tbb|_You dont have active target in scratchbox chroot.23:11
|tbb|_Please create one by running "sb-menu" before continuing23:11
MDKwe can change it now, even including binary compatibility23:11
|tbb|_Inconsistency detected by rtld.c: 1192: dl_main: Assertion `(void *) ph->p_vaddr == _rtld_local._dl_sysinfo_dso' failed!23:11
everaldoMDK, but it is not so difficult, theres a XMl to do it23:11
MDK(if something is broken that is)23:11
tkoMDK, oh, that reminds me.. is get_color() API sane now? :)23:11
MDKyeas, it's like in gtk23:12
MDKyou pass an alloced struct23:12
everaldoMDK, about packaging... had you working on it? (I have it for 770)23:12
MDKtko: there is a bug in kusimas code when using propery access though23:13
MDK"small details like that..."23:13
garretttigert, MDK: what's the best way to go about making a theme?23:14
|tbb|_it looks like it could not determine which version is allready installed23:14
kaatis|tbb|_, those first two lines are ok as you don't have a target yet. but i think the third is caused by vdso. try "echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/vdso23:14
kaatis.. as root23:14
maddlertigert: your theme is *great*23:14
MDKgarrett: I can bootstrap a theme package for you23:15
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MDKwe need more good themes23:15
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garrettMDK: cool23:16
garrettyeah, I'd like to work on one sometime23:17
MDKyou need sbox though23:17
MDKto build packages23:17
tkoMDK, something to add to hildon-themes-tool maybe? hildon-theme-new mytheme ? :)23:17
everaldoMDK, I will working on it (mono package) on weekend, if you have some comments please send me a message.23:17
garrettMDK: I have sbox in ubuntu under parallels on my mac23:18
MDKtko: yeah, exactly23:18
garrettjust to have lots of layers23:18
garrettit works though23:18
|tbb|_something strange, if i type echo 0 > /proc/sys/kernel/vdso it should create a file with 0 in it right23:18
tkoMDK, what kind of build-dependencies did the packages have, actually? I think you might be able to build and use them on normal debian system23:18
MDKeveraldo: cool. I'll be here, so just poke me when you have some questions23:18
|tbb|_when i do that, i became no such file or directory ....23:19
MDKtko: yes, the whole system is built in such a way, that it doesn't depend on debian itself23:19
MDKtko: I mean, there is proper pkgconfig shit for everything etc.23:19
MDKthough, there was something being a limitation23:20
MDKI don't remember what however23:20
kaatis|tbb|_, what kernel/distro are you running23:20
tkoI meant that you should be able to build even the whole theme package on a normal debian distro, without sbox23:20
tkoif you felt inclined to do so23:20
MDKyeah I know23:21
|tbb|_debian 2.6.1823:21
garrettbut you'd want to test it somehow -- and would need sbox for that, right?23:21
garrettof course, on the device too23:21
Fatalyou can't go around randomly creating files in /proc23:21
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Fataleither they exist or they don't23:21
MDKit'd be cool to have tango icons for the device23:22
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MDKI'm not deeply in love with some of our icons23:22
MDKI actually hate them badly23:23
MDKlike the wifi-globe icon23:23
garrettyeah, I'd like Tango icons for it too23:23
garrettandreasn was working on the new g-i-t theme for the 77023:23
garrettit more or less mostly worked on my N800 when I was playing around with it23:24
garrettI'll have to do the same thing, with Tango icons23:24
kaatis|tbb|_, do you have built vdso in your kernel23:24
tkojobi, I always forget, we need to make the personalization applet update icon theme as well23:24
garrettyeah that would be nice23:25
MDKgood point23:25
garrettright now, one has to make it the "hicolor" theme, and reboot the device23:25
MDKwe don't really support parallel icon themes installed at the moment23:25
|tbb|kaatis: well i dont know what it is so i dont think so23:25
tkowell, you can have them *installed* nicely.. :)23:25
jobitko: ok23:25
garrettthe hicolor method currently works, but only supports 1 theme and is a bit painful to change (;23:26
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jobiMDK: you can specify in the gtkrc which default icon theme to use, meaning we could have others23:26
tkojobi, and get rid of the horrible gtkrc mangling :)23:26
tkojobi, have you tried appending 'gtk-icon-theme-name = "foo"' in the current-gtk-theme ? :)23:26
garrettthe wasted blank space around the apps, especially on the right -- can that be fixed in the themes, or is that harder to address?23:27
jobitko, MDK: have you figured out the application theming?23:27
garrettI mean, I'd rather have the scrollbars a little bit beefier instead of that space23:27
MDKjobi: working on it right now23:27
tkojobi, I think we have the logic figured out, MDK was about to hack something23:27
MDKjobi: you'll be the first affected in the line23:27
garrettand I know the scrollbars being larger can be done in GTK+ themes23:27
MDK(maemo-af-desktop rc split-up)23:27
tkojobi, we did come up with a related case, which is: how would you do plugin specific theming :)23:28
jobitko: I did something like that when running hildon stuff on desktop, I had installed the hildon icon theme in parallel to the hicolor and specified hildon as default in gtkrc; it worked fine23:28
tkojobi, you can do it in the /usr/share/.../gtkrc, but it's not the right place to do it IMO23:29
garretthow can one force a refresh of the themes w/o having to reboot?23:29
jobitko: agreed23:29
zuhgarrett: yeah, setting slider-width and stepper-size should do it IIRC23:29
jobigarrett: change to another theme then back23:29
tkogarrett, the right border of the application area is controlled in gtkrc, forgot the actual setting but it's there23:29
jobitko: only for HildonWindow23:30
tko(or all borders are controlled in gtkrc)23:30
tkodeprecated widgets don't count :)23:30
MDKgarrett: however, the current theming system is done so, that you can't modify gtkrc from themes23:30
garrettjobi: that'll work for the icons and stuff too?23:30
MDKgarrett: you can justr draw-in the theme in the existing layout23:31
garrettMDK: with the caching or such?23:31
garretttko: oh, so one can turn that off?23:31
MDKgarrett: well, that was made to simplify things23:31
garrettreally? how so?23:31
MDKthe gtkrc's are a huge beast23:31
|tbb|so kaatis what i have to do know?23:31
MDKprolly only 1% might be interesting to you23:31
garrettI looked at a gtkrc; it is huge23:31
tkoMDK, you'd probably benefit from writing the rationale somewhere :)23:32
MDKwe don't have reliable ways to split the stuff23:32
jobiyou can remove the cache files and it uses the non-cached gtkrc23:32
MDKso for now we have themes that are based on layouts23:32
MDKlayouts = gtkrc + 'guides' for images23:32
garretthow do you regenerate the cached version?23:32
MDKit's generated on theme installation23:32
garretttheme installation == deb install?23:32
MDKyou can regenerate ALL caches of ALL themes by running hildon-theme-recache-all23:33
MDKtko: this is what you should try running on gtk install btw23:34
nomisMDK: you're working with the hildon-widgets, right?23:34
MDKsilently ignoring error of it not neing present23:34
MDKnomis: yes23:34
nomisMDK: how would I create a menu-like thingie with widgets embedded like the volume/brightness applets?23:34
tkoMDK, can you file a bug so that I remember still tomorrow?23:35
MDKtko: sure23:35
nomisMDK: I tried creating a menu, embedding these widgets into MenuEntries. However, the Menu apparently ate the clicks.23:35
garrettalso, it's annoying that there's this empty space around menus too23:35
tkonomis, they're dialogs with specific settings and widget names and whatnot to get the menu-like looks23:35
garrettI'd rather have the menu items being a touch larger and NOT have the empty space and border23:35
tkowe don't have any howto for that, afaik23:36
tkowe should, though23:36
nomistko: yeah, I'd appreciate. I'd be glad about sourcecode  :)23:36
garrettanyway, probably a lot of this can be tweaked in the thing that makes the gtkrc23:36
garrettright? (:23:36
tkogarrett, yep.. it's all there somewhere23:36
nomistko: (really, I don't understand why the volume/brightess aren't open - there simply cannot be very complicated stuff in them)23:37
tkomost of it, at least23:37
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garrettis there a process viewer / manager for the device?23:38
tkonomis, strategy decisions, for better or worse.. home is open, plugins closed, etc..23:38
garrettlike if I have a crazy app taking lots of cpu and/or memory, being able to graphically kill it w/o a terminal would be nice23:38
|tbb|kaatis: still there?23:38
garrettI saw that if it does it for too long for a normal app, then there's a system dialog that should take care of things23:38
nomistko: yeah  :-/23:38
Takheh, the watchdog will kill it for you ;-)23:39
|tbb|what is this vdso?23:39
tkoas I recall some hope applet was just recently uploaded to stage23:39
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fishis there still nothing like 'dialog' for the maemo ui?23:41
tkohuh? we have tons of dialogs23:42
MDKI think fish means curses dialog23:42
fish'dialog' the ncurse menu stuff but i mean something like that for the maemo ui23:42
tkooh, that dialog23:42
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tkozenity ?23:42
fishis there a port of it?23:42
tkoif it's not in the catalog it doesn't exist :)23:43
fishi was looking at zenity but it depends one many libraries which are not port of maemo23:43
tkomust be the debian package which are always built with all possible dependencies23:44
nomistko: didn't you say that you have a GTK-introspection tool? Could you invoke it on the volumebar in the volume-applets menu?  :-]23:44
garrettGTK-introspection tool?23:44
s-ndh-chow do i do a screenshot?23:44
garrettlike you can click and discover things about GTK+ widgets?23:45
MDKgarrett: not really ;)23:45
garrettoh; I was getting excited23:45
MDKgarrett: a gobject-api introspection tool23:45
MDKboring stuff but helpfull23:45
garrettGLE, way back in the day, was something useful like that23:45
tkonomis, it works only on static types, only what you can figure out starting from foo_get_type() function23:46
garrettand I've been hoping that someone make another tool like that for many years now23:46
nomistko: ah, ok.23:46
garrettat-poke is kinda sorta almost there23:46
garrettbut it isn't useful for doing wacky theme related stuff23:46
tkothere was some tool like that.. from google or ibm maybe23:46
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tko(just click on a widget and you get a lot of stuff)23:46
MDKgarrett: gtk theming, from the artist point of view, sucks big time23:46
kaatis|tbb|, sometimes23:47
garrettyes, totally23:47
tkodidn't show style properties though IIRC23:47
garrettI wholeheartedly agree23:47
alpMDK: can you explain which of the hildon libraries need bindings?23:47
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MDKalp: hildon-1 is the first target23:47
kaatis|tbb|, sorry don't know a solution to your problem. never had that or heard of that problem. maybe try with a newer kernel?23:47
tkoargh. we really need to write these things somewhere23:47
garretthildon-based stuff for a desktop theme engine could be promising though23:47
alpok, i did that one. things like hildonlgpl seem to be deprecated though23:47
MDKalp: (former hildon-libs, some basic gtk-based widgets we're using)23:47
garrettbut it would still suck, although probably a lot less23:48
|tbb|kaatis: my kernel doesnt support that right now, and im not able to install a new one :/ never done that23:48
MDKhildonlgpl goes away, don't bother23:48
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MDKalp: 'did that one'? What you mean?23:48
tkothere's a page in wiki listing stuff that is changing, but not completely what exactly are they changing into23:48
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alpMDK: <- i updated the hildon c# binding from 2005 earlier today23:48
alpthe old binding also had hildonfm23:49
kaatis|tbb|, then i'd try the vmware player image with everything preinstalled23:49
MDKalp: cool23:50
MDKalp: the new hildon needs to be tested with gtk 2.10 though23:50
MDKcrap, we need images or something23:50
tkopoke fer :-]23:51
alpso this is not actually on the device?23:51
MDKalp: not, *ugh*, yet23:51
keesjalp, are c# 2.0 partial types open classes?23:51
MDKand don't ask when23:51
tkobasically it is possible to take your n800, install sardine unstable + experimental and still have it not blow up23:51
MDKsince all we could do than is smile in a silly way23:51
alpkeesj: it's just a compiler feature, nothing clever like extension methods23:52
MDKtko: 'pray' should be added to the process at some point23:52
MDKalp: libosso would be a good target afaik23:52
alponce compiled the type is "closed" i guess in your terminology23:52
alpMDK: do you know if libosso is a thin wrapper over the dbus api or has more smarts?23:53
MDKgood question23:53
alphistory has shown it's best to avoid libdbus if possible23:53
keesjalp alright thanks23:53
MDKtko: hints?23:53
tkoalp, you mean more than average unstable library?23:54
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tkoalp, it's pretty much a thin wrapper around few things23:54
alptko: don't know, i rewrote it in c# and my implementation has been pretty popular. the libdbus c# binding did not work well23:54
tigertgarrett: the spacing should be possible to change with just gtk theming23:54
tigertgarrett: look at hildon window styling23:54
tigertit should have some borders there23:54
tigerttry removing the right side altogether23:55
tigertwhat sucks is a lot of stuff is interdependent23:55
alptko: cool. i'll put aside a few hours and see if it can be ported23:55
tigertit would be nice to have a small gui grid apo to resize the different areas in sync23:55
tkoHildonWindow::borders = { 24, 24, 0, 24 } -- that's left,right,top,bottom if I'm not mistaken23:55
tigertand the graphics to be changed accordingly23:56
tigerttko: do you know dynadraw btw?23:56
tigertTHAT would rule for a sketching tool23:56
tkoMDK, the thing you showed today?23:56
MDKi was showing it23:56
tigertfederico has some ancient code for gtk 1.2 that can probably easily be ported to gtk223:56
tigertneed to try it on the device display23:57
tkoyea, it looked pretty nice23:57
MDKeveraldo: do you have some smart solution for devkit?23:57
tkonot that I would have any use for it, though :)23:57
tigertsome predefined tools and we'd have a cool skething tool23:57
everaldoMDK, no why?23:57
tigerttko: it is a LOT easier to draw nice curves with it23:57
tigertthan with the regular pen tool23:57
MDKeveraldo: it's externally installable but it needs to 'provide' apt mono package23:57
everaldoMDK, well.. what you mean as devkit?23:57
MDKeveraldo: perl does something similarly23:58
everaldoMDK, humm... CPAN?23:58
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MDKno no23:58
MDKI mean -- you have mono vm running in the outside (devkit)23:58
MDKas you don't want to run it through emulation on the arm target23:59
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everaldoMDK, I have no solution23:59
MDKbut the devkit needs to hack the apt database to make it look like mono is installed23:59
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MDKso that some other mono packages don't start pulling mono23:59
MDKperl devkit work similarly23:59
MDKperl is running on the outside of sbox (for perf reasons?)23:59

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