IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2007-02-02

svumaddler, no, just .deb/.install which could be installed smoothly ? or at least patch for maemo gui...00:00
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kooswhere did the gtk channel go? (seemed desynced on irc.gimp.org00:02
maddlerif I'm not wrong there should be a port00:02
maddlerchecked on
svumaddler, yes. could not find anything00:03
maddlerit's not here... hehe00:03
svuit is only mentioned in the python tutorial00:04
maddlersvu... someone was talking about that on maemo-users list00:04
maddlernot sure btw00:04
svumaddler, yes, I started the thread :) anyway, I'll ask in the maillist00:05
maddleroh, doh!00:06
svubashpodder is not good - it requires xsltproc00:07
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maddlerI'm not in the pods stuff...00:09
maddlerbut why not using media player?00:10
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pbrookOooh! That's interesting. When I disable WEP my wireless connection magically starts working properly.00:31
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MDKDid anybody notice a problem of the interal sd card 'disappearing' after some time?00:38
MDKseems to happen always to me some time after reboot00:39
garrettI see that happening sometimes, for either00:40
garrettI notice that if I open up the cover and close it again (either battery or sd for the external), then it notices them again00:41
garrettI've had it happen maybe twice00:41
garrettcould've been 3 times00:41
MDKgarrett: you're using the 'bundled' mmc?00:41
garrettthat's one of them00:41
garrettthe one on the inside00:41
garrettthe other is a no-name 1g sd I got for $15 from a local computer place00:42
garrettit seems to happen around the time I'm doing transfer stuff with the computer mostly00:42
garrettI think once it didn't00:42
garrettso yeah, I guess it happened 3 times then00:42
garrettbeen crazy days at work lately, so everything's a bit gaussian blurred (;00:43
garrettI have noticed some things on the N800 that I would suggest improving UI-wise and such, but I have been really enjoying it overall (and some UI things are just totally wonderful)00:44
garrettI _love_ the thumb-touch detection00:44
garrett...just wished more stuff used that (;00:45
garrettand the menus, especially in thumb-touch mode, need a little bit of work00:45
MDKtigert's theme is cool (plankton)00:45
garrettperhaps something like the slab (main menu)?00:45
garrettyeah, I like it; it's nice and clean w/o distracting shinyness00:46
garrettthe others are interesting, but I think I like the cleaner look better00:46
garrettI'll have to look into theme development for it00:46
MDKyeah, the task navigator thumb menu implementation sucks00:46
MDKbut the idea is good00:46
garrettI'm sure it will imrpove with time too00:47
garrettimprove even00:47
garrettI wish the screen wasn't *so* inset also00:47
garrettbut that's a hardware thing00:47
MDKwe plan to improve it, yes00:47
svumaddler, media player is - but I want some app to fetch podcast during the night so in the morning I'd listen to them while driving the car00:47
garrettyeah totally00:47
MDK(i mean - task menu)00:48
garrettthe media player needs a bit of usability love, I think00:48
MDKheh, that's mildly said ;)00:48
garrettand having the ability to subscribe to podcasts -- including video ones -- would be AWESOME00:48
garrettthen one wouldn't have to "sync" to get those00:49
garrettor copy anything over00:49
garrettthe video ones would probably be a little tricky, though, of course00:49
garrettjust due to not being optimally encoded (or even unsupported codecs)00:50
garrettbut at least audio podcasts could work w/o problems00:50
MDKyes, that's true00:51
ferulogarrett: xan and me are thinking about writing a GJ article about maemo platform making a podcast-listener app00:51
garrettI don't even care if podcasting were a seperate app00:51
MDKi hope that once mono is up and running we'll get more of this kind of apps00:51
garrettalthough it would be nice to have it in the same media player as other things00:51
MDKsince it's easier to write them00:51
garrettMDK: yeah00:52
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garrettI was trying to convince abock to port banshee over (;00:52
MDKwith C doing any more advanced networking is... lot's of work00:52
garretthe seemed to show some interest in it00:53
MDKwe have python already, having mono should cover a really wide area of possible developers/opportunities00:54
hapi want a better launched, palm like, big icons, no menu.00:57
hapa better launcher00:57
MDKpocket banshee would blow our mediaplayer to pieces ;)01:01
garrettMDK: totally01:02
garrettMDK: then you guys have to ship the new stuff01:02
happocket banshee, whats that?01:03
garrettI want the slab, well, not the full-blown slab, but slab concepts01:03
garrettsome hybrid of palm os launchers and the slab would probably work well instead of the current menu system01:03
hapgarrett: slab, do you have url ?01:04
garretthap: what's in SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop, and now is in GNOME upstream too... hold on a min, lemme find a pic01:04
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pbrookCould we use the applet plugins in the current menu system?01:04
MDKhap: banshee is an itunes-alike mediaplayer for linux/gnome01:05
garrettI googled for a pciture01:05
MDKvery usable01:05
garrettof course, I have tons of screenshots and such, but I think they're all at private URLs01:05
garrettthat's just somebody's random screenshot with bad fonts01:05
pbrookSo users could remove all the rss crud and replace it with single launcher applet.01:05
wumpuswhat size to use for the maemo app icon?01:06
hapbanshee, urgh, ugly application, just looked at it01:06
garrettbasically, there's a button a user clicks on the panel and it pops up something that provides quick access to useful things01:06
hapgarrett: private url for screenshot, so you can take a look at them ? :)01:06
garretthap: well, I work for Novell, and designed the slab a good bit (;01:06
garrettwe put it through usability tests and all that01:07
garrettbut basically, the idea was to make things nice and easy to click, quick to access, etc.01:07
garrettit's actually not unlike the palm os app launcher in some respects01:07
hapgarrett: is slab and banshee related?01:08
garretton the N800, I'd suggest that a launcher thing would be fullscreen01:08
garretthap: both Novell stuff, both open source, both use GTK+01:08
hapgarrett: i suggest it would be fullscreen if we push the fullscreen hardware button01:08
hapbut at least something like iphone or palm, with tab for sections, would be much more than welcome01:09
garretthap: no, I mean the launcher should fill the screen01:09
hapthe current menu is a pain in the ass01:09
garrettespecially in fat finger mode01:09
garrettI also don't really like the categorization of the menu01:09
hapand you can't use your fingers with it, it takes 4 secondes from the top to bottom, keeping your finger on the down arrow01:09
garrettas it makes everything go in extra01:09
garrettvery few things are web, for instance01:09
hapanyone at nokia who would have used that menu with his finger would have noticed, i don't get it.01:09
hap(within a day of use)01:10
garrettunder web, it has "web" and "bookmarks"01:10
garrettnot that useful01:10
garretthap: yeah01:10
hapgarrett: yeah, the launcher should fill the scf01:10
hapfill the screen01:10
garrettthis is why the menu should flow to the side and fill the screen01:10
hapi want drag&drop to change the top left 3 icons applications, to change them and put things i run often.01:11
haplike dock on osx01:11
garrettthen if you have to scroll more info in, it should do so quickly, a page at a time (preferably with a quick animation)01:11
garrettalso, it's a royal pain to close an app when using your fingers01:11
hapyeah, but a launcher with palm like look would prevent you from having a menu at all.01:11
garrettthe screen is sunk in and you have a very small target area in the top right01:11
hapgarrett: mostly when a modal windows pops up on top of it....01:11
garrettditto for minizing things, but I don't understand the point of mimizing things -- there's a switcher and you can get back to the clean home area anyway01:12
hapi agree01:12
garrettso I'd suggest doing away with minimizing things, and making the close button larger01:12
garrettI think I'll write some of this up01:12
garrettprobably do some stuff on a wiki01:12
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hapgarrett: the sean's article list lots of features i d want01:13
MDKgarrett: go ahead01:13
garrettis that the Newton one?01:13
garrettyeah, I read that and totally agreed with most all of it01:13
hapsame here01:13
garrettof course, that's before I had the device, but I read up on it first01:13
hapall he listed, i had the problem within 1 day of use (without having read his article yet)01:14
hapi want velocity when i scroll down on a webpage01:14
hapiPhone like01:14
MDKgarrett: you have the great advantage of acually knowing something about gtk etc.01:14
garrettthe N800 is great and shows a lot of promise, but it could be much more than it currently is with tweakage, most software01:14
garrettMDK: true01:14
garrettI can probably made some changes myself here even01:15
hapwell Gtk isn't that hard01:15
hapgarrett: i'd like to see modal window on the bottom right the way Sean say it01:15
garretthap: GTK+ themes can be a pain01:15
MDKso you know what's easily possible, what's impossible etc.01:15
hapnot on the top right over the closing arrow.01:15
hapgarrett: well theme is coming after, but Gtk is easy01:16
hap(i don't like Gtk at all in general, but well...)01:16
MDKhap: not for the designer to work with01:17
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MDKit's easy for the app developer, true01:17
hapI think compared to Apple, UI libraries sux in general. I would include Qt also (even it's a little better than Gtk), and WinForms.01:17
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hapOne thing i hate about that N800, when I go out and I list the wifi network available01:17
hapit keeps updating the list, i can't select one to connect to01:18
garrettthe best design decisions made about the device:  1) building it using open source software  2) deciding to make a UI that targets a tablet form factor01:18
garrettof course, there are others, but those are the top two, imho01:18
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hapit should list open network on top, so you can quickly choose, and display a green background or something so they are easy to see01:18
garretta tablet with a desktop interface is just awful (:01:18
MDKwe need a page to collect all this feedback01:19
hapgarrett: well I don't think they realized 2 yet.01:19
garrettI see all the UMPC buzz and just go "ick" (well, outside it being Windows)01:19
hapsure, it's not like Windows CE, but it's not really optimized for small PDAs01:19
MDKthose are valid issues (ie. the wifi list)01:19
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hapleft menu is too large, (the icons) and you loose so much pixels on many cases01:19
hapMDK: - I did that quicly01:19
garrettit would be nice if the network thing worked like the network manager applet on the Linux desktop01:19
hapto list all my wishes01:20
garrettyou click, it lists, you select; you're done01:20
hapMDK: i think anyone who would have actualy _tried_ to connect to wifi on the street would have noticed01:20
garrettcould be a power issue with scanning though (;01:20
hapi don't get how they missed so many bothering things i get using this device01:20
garrettI agree01:20
hapthey just didn't use it, i don't get, it's crazy :)01:21
garretthap: thankfully most of this is fixable in software, and now people are hopefully going to address it all01:21
hapMDK: my website has a RSS, you can create very easily accounts and add some. I did it because a wiki isn't good for that01:21
MDKif you don't make yourself vocal, we'll not hear you01:21
hapMDK: i didn't annoucne the website yet, i want to add content first.01:21
hapgarrett: yeah, but i wonder if nokia just don't care01:22
MDKunfortunately, there are not many ui designers here01:22
MDK(but some are dropping by)01:22
hapMDK: well I'm not a designer, but _I_ do understsand I want the left icons to be as small as possible to have a large part for the application01:22
hapborder should be smalls etc01:22
MDK wiki page would make more sense though01:23
garrettwiki makes the most sense01:23
hapMDK: for wishes, it sux when everyone add them, noone follow instructions01:23
garrettand, hey! happens to have a wiki!01:23
hapthe one one the sux for wishes01:23
hapi ll continue to use mine :)01:23
MDKneed to go, but let's keep the topic up01:24
garrettyeah, totally01:24
garrettI think having tigert working on it will make it better too (;01:24
garrettok, I'm heading home, so I'm leaving too01:25
garrettsee you all later on01:25
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Disconnecthmm. pepper pad on woot for the next few mins.01:37
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[mbm]cool, 4G sd cards I ordered are already shipping02:20
[mbm]not entirely sure what I'll do with them but booting from mmc and playing around with the os is probably a good start02:21
shackana 4g card for the os ? dude, it's not Vista :D02:22
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[mbm]shackan: partitioned02:26
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svuhow would I stop am/pm madness and make it use normal 24hours?02:37
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sriso, anybody know how to get an xterm on os2007 on an n800?02:59
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[mbm]sri: go to the app manager and install it03:02
Robot101sri: put / bora / main into the app manager03:03
sricool thanks03:03
[mbm]there's a whole list of 2007 repositories on maemo.org03:05
[mbm]you might also want to read about redpill mode03:05
[mbm]oh, and avoid upgrading busybox or you'll probably get stuck in a reboot loop03:05
sri[mbm]: yeah, I looked there, it's not a lot really.  Like 5 or so.03:07
[mbm]you're not in redpill mode03:08
[mbm]oh, you mena 5 repositories03:08
sriRobot101: [mbm] no I mean only there are like 5 apps like python2.5, mplayer, gpe-todo03:10
sriRobot101: I tried to put that into the application manager, but it says it couldn't refresh the list, although it didn't actually give me an error oddly enough.03:10
[mbm]sri: then you need to go into redpill mode03:11
sriis there a pointer somewhere to do that?03:11
srior is google search good enough?03:11
* [mbm] currently has several pages of packages03:12
srihopefully, fer will write up how to set up a devel env for N80003:12
[mbm]add a new repository, leave everything blank (defualts) but enter "matrix" for the url03:12
[mbm](there's a page on the wiki describing it)03:12
[mbm]then you see all packages, not just the nokia signed ones03:13
[mbm]oh and if you do get stuck in a reboot loop you'll need to run flasher and switch to r&d before it'll boot normally again03:15
wumpusif you upgrade busybox you need to revert to the original image and fool around with the r&d switches, it's that destructive :)03:16
wumpusI was so glad when my device was back to normal03:17
[mbm]wumpus: yep03:17
wumpusI still don't understand why they offer the update03:17
[mbm]the app installer needs an 'ignore this package and never show it again' for hiding that broken busybox03:17
wumpusyeah or just remove the frigging thing03:18
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[mbm]weirdest thing is I can't even find the original version in any repositories03:18
[mbm]I knew something was screwed up after I installed it and my xterm wouldn't work03:18
[mbm]and I tried to uninstall it but couldnt find any other versions03:18
[mbm]then I had the bright idea that maybe I needed to reboot03:19
sriso I get dev packages, but that's about it.03:19
sriI'm missing something.03:19
sriand python2.5 doesn't install.03:19
[mbm]you're probably missing a repository03:20
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wumpusone of the many :p03:20
sriis there a place I can go to get the repos?03:21
sricool, thank you.03:22
[mbm]not really much to see in the 2007 repos though03:22
[mbm]tons of dev packages and only a handful of apps03:23
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srithats more like it03:30
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nelsonHmmmm..... spontaneous reboot on my N800.  Not a good sign.04:43
revdefinately not.04:59
soleblazenelson: not abnormal unfortunately05:03
soleblazeanyone here know the repository that has midnight commander for the n800?05:04
nelsonWell, at least if the problem is widespread, the solution will be forthcoming.05:04
jacquesnelson, were you doing anything in particular when it rebooted?05:04
jacquesdoes the lifeguard-reset (?) file say why it rebooted?05:05
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* rev just found out his N800's USB port works as a mass storage device!05:11
Disconnectits unfortunately not uncommon on mine. 36 hrs is the max uptime :( dsp-related reboots05:11
revi figured it had some special protocol, like the other linux PDAs05:11
Disconnectrev: erm. put it down, go into the other room, dig out the box, and look inside. there's a manual. check it out :)05:11
Disconnectat least skim it05:12
Disconnect(iirc it doesn't talk about the internal memory slot though, but otherwise seems ok)05:12
revDisconnect: not w/ my N800- there isn't much of a manual, just a little poster...05:12
revDisconnect: that said, there is a PDF'd manual on the internal flash. that said, manuals aren't my thing05:13
Disconnectyah sorry, forgot there wasn't anything useful printed up05:13
revDisconnect: yeah, it doesn't do the internal flash, but it did mount *both* the SD cards i had installed, which is awesome05:13
jacquessupposedly *both* SD slots should be visible as mass storage05:13
Disconnect(he's gonna be amazed in a couple months when he discovers it can do wifi ;) ;) ..)05:13
volhey, anyone have issues with the new kernel that supports sdhc?05:15
revjacques: yeah, like i sez- they both are!05:15
jacquesrev, yeah but I started typing before you said it :-)05:16
revDisconnect: it does wifi??? i've used bt to interface with my phone, but this wifi thing is news to me...05:16
revDisconnect: do i have to install something optional to use it?05:16
Disconnectheh ;)05:16
revsorry, not the most convincing attempt05:16
revare there any other programs to utilize the N800's webcam?05:17
Disconnect(no gui tho)05:19
Disconnectanything that'll handle v4l can do it, in theory05:19
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nelsonjacques: wasn't touching it.05:19
revit'll record? mplayer?05:19
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jacquesnelson, :-(05:20
nelsonAre there GB SD cards known to work?   Or have all of them worked?05:20
Disconnectrev: -dump05:20
revnelson: i use a 1 GB kingston w/ no probs05:21
revahhh ok05:21
nelsonIf I'm going to buy a 4GB card, I want to buy one known to work.05:21
volnelson: the 8gb cards have been reported to work05:22
jacquesI have a couple of 2GB cards in mine - I'm going to wait for SDHC support and then but 8GB cards05:22
volyou just need to flash a newer kernel05:22
nelsonvol: Oh, really??  Wow.  Amazing.05:23
volwell i just bought 2 of the 8gb adata cards05:23
revare there any problems using toolbar applets from the 770/OS2006 on the N800+05:23
volthey were only 5$ more than the 4gb standard sd cards05:23
nelsonwhere from?05:23
jacquesI have heard the SDHC cards are slower tho... (not suer it matters here)05:24
voli should get them early next week so i'll do some testing05:25
jacquesI would be a lot more excited about massive storage if there was a good video player05:27
jacquesas in one that could play full frame rate fill res at about 1500kb/s05:28
volmplayer wasnt able to for you?05:28
jacquesvol, I mean 800x480@25/30fps05:28
jacquesmy hx4700 can do 640x480@25/30 / 1500kb/s05:29
jacquesand the N800 should be much more powerful hardware05:29
volah i was able to play a xvid file, let me check the specs on it05:29
jacqueseverthing I have read so far indicates this is not yet possible on the N80005:29
vol608x256 805kbps05:30
volseemed to work well05:30
volbut i dont have a large enough card yet to test an actual movie05:30
voljust a clip05:30
jacquesvol, interesting - what codec?05:30
jacquesalso, what about the audio codec/bitrate?05:31
volxvid, audio was 153kbps vbr mp305:31
jacquesok that sounds promising - I did hear mp3 audio worked much better than other codecs since mp3 is done by the DSP (and others are not)05:32
soleblazethe n800 would be able to r0x the b0x..or whatever..if they properly code the media player05:34
soleblazethere's a video accelerator thing on the graphic chip, but the media player doesn't use it05:34
jacquessoleblaze, yep, using the VFP and video accel hardware05:34
pbrookHardware floating point.05:35
jacquesI've done a few tests (so have others) which seem to indicate bora isn't built with hard-float05:36
soleblazewouldn't surprise honestly doesn't seem to be coded that well..05:36
soleblazewell engineered piece of hardware with a badly tuned linux kernel slapped ontop of it05:36
jacquesI built nbench with and without vfp and get > order of magnitude improvement in FP operations with it05:37
jacquesbut the trig functions are still slow (libm)05:37
pbrooksoleblaze: It's a userspace issue, not kernel.05:37
soleblazeok just slapped programs onto it without optimising anything :P05:37
soleblazesymantics ;)05:37
jacquesI hope they plan to transition to hard-float05:38
pbrookArm hard and soft float both use the same ABI, so you should be able to just rebuild stuff with the right compiler flags.05:38
soleblazepbrook: if it was that easy, they probably had a reason..well, you'd think at least05:38
soleblazehow well does mplayer run on the n800?05:39
jacquespbrook, yeah I did that with nbench - was considering trying glibc to get libm05:39
pbrookI'd guess the main issue is testing. VFP support was fairly new in the toolchain they're using, and they might not have the glibc VFP bits.05:39
soleblazethe n800 seems to be the flakiest piece of equipment i've ever used that ran linux05:40
jacquesah :-\    gcc-4.1.1 would be nice too05:40
pbrookThey should be ABI compatible.05:41
jacqueshmmmmm, that's good news05:42
jacquesI have at least one gcc 4.1.1 eabi armel toolchain05:42
pbrookYou might need to replace libgcc.05:43
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jacquespbrook, this sounds worth trying :-)05:44
jacquesmaybe this weekend I can try05:44
pbrookUsual disclaimer about keeping both pieces if it breaks applies :-)05:45
jacqueslol, yeah I am familiar with that concept05:45
jacquesI am just glad to hear you say it might work05:46
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jacquesI'll set up dual booting to SD first ;-)05:47
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Skyhusker|n800i'm testing xchat in bora and almost everything works :)06:34
Skyhusker|n800will release a package rsn06:34
Skyhusker|n800I've just need to solve an issue with the topic bar tooltip06:38
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voljust flashed the sdhc enabled kernel06:57
* vol crosses fingers and hopes for no crashes06:57
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Markovare there any free video calling clients available for pc?07:51
tolgamyou can try openwengo07:52
tolgamor ekiga07:52
tolgamboth works great :)07:52
Markovsuhweet thatnks tolgam07:53
Markovcan i connect to them via n800?07:53
tolgamdon't think so :/07:58
tolgamat least for openwengo there must be a version for n80007:58
Markovyeah. hmmm07:58
Markovi guess i'll just have to wait for skype07:59
tolgamI never managed to get visio with something else than an other openwengo07:59
tolgamekiga connects to classical voip clients with h323 and such protocols07:59
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tolgamit as more chance to works with n80007:59
tolgambut dunno if it can get connected to gtalk...08:00
Markovsooo.. when will skype be available?08:00
tolgamyou can try gizmo too08:00
tolgamit's a kind of skype clone and it works08:01
tolgamboth on n800 and PCs08:01
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Markov_does gizmo support video?08:03
tolgamdidn't tryied yet08:05
tolgami've only done voice calling between two PC08:06
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Markov_ can anyone recommend a upnp server?08:18
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kulveMarkov_: I've tested ushare, and it at least worked. None of the servers I tested were good though08:28
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kulve(On Debian Etch in my mediabox)08:29
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tigertthere is commandline gmediaserver that worked with mediastreamer but it was very spartan09:13
tigertor something like that09:14
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kulvetigert: yes, I tried that too and even though it worked as well, it did required some tweaking before I got it running..09:26
kulvemost of  the upnp stuff seems to be a bit unfinished, even though with n800 the upnp idea could work nicely09:27
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AD-N770good morning11:01
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maddlermorning all...11:06
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JaffaMorning, all11:27
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maddlerheya Jaffa...11:52
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wraphi everyone.13:12
wrapi'm a maemo devlopment newbie. I am wondering if you guys integrate an IDE with your usage of scratchbox to do maemo development ?13:13
wrapIf so which IDE do you use and how is the integration done ? Do you need to X11 suport inside a scratchbox target to run something like KDevelop or xemacs ??13:14
wrapor do you integrate scratchbox with eclipse ?13:15
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keesjthere was  an eclipse plugin. that was use in the normal environement not inside scratchbox13:16
keesjI don't think it is very much up to date.13:17
keesjthe pattern i use is to programms a little as possible inside scratchbox .13:17
wrapok and just move in to scratchbox to compile etc.13:18
keesjif possible yes, but if you do gui development you don't have much choice.13:19
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neostriderhello fellows13:37
neostriderare you  here?13:38
neostrideranybody home?13:40
keesjyes13:41 are things going?13:42
keesjalright. I am thinking what do do next , I have a few programming ideas but I am sure sure what do do next13:44
keesjand I am trying different channels to get xmoto in the whild. aparently nobody is waiting for such a game :(13:46
neostriderxmoto is ready?13:46
neostridernobody expected it!13:46
keesjI is good enough for me to play :p13:46
neostriderit is a big boy's game13:46
neostriderhey...where can I  get it?13:46
neostrider(also, the source code would be welcome)13:47
keesjwell I can't get it to compile on the 2.1 sdk , do you want to try the 3.0 build on the 770?13:47
neostriderIm concentrating in scirocco13:47
neostridermaybe I can try it for you so you can concentrate on bora13:47
keesjthe source code is on + the maemo specific stuff in the mud builder svn13:47
neostriderok...I will check out everything13:48
keesjI still have my 770 so I can try it13:48
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neostriderwhat is on it?13:48
neostriderbora or scirocco?13:48
keesjon the 770 it's scirocco I think13:49
neostrider( using SDK 2.0 and my stupid little app worked on scirocco device =-P)13:50
keesjthe sketch program?13:50
neostridercrappy, but working (kind of)13:51
neostriderI still have some issues with the service13:51
neostriderbut It worked when I modified the desktop file to run the binary directly13:52
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X-Fadetigert: Wow, sweet photo!13:53
keesjit's all a bit of black magic if you don't use hildon13:53 trying to figure it out13:54
neostriderI guess my mistake is about the game startup13:54
neostriderI used bomberman as a template13:55
neostriderbut it has a very complex startup applet13:55
neostriderI should have used something simpler13:55
neostridermaybe xmoto is the best choice...can I use its files?13:55
neostrider(the ones you provided my for BZK are too complex...BZK is a very twisted project =-P )13:55
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neostriderkees, where are the mud-builder svn?14:09
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keesjsorry ckeck the getting started14:11
Setokgreat, my n800 has now also apparently entered a boot loop :P14:11
Setokhell, who designed this >:I14:11
[mbm]what'd you do to it?14:12
dwdkeesj: Is there any reason why, if I've got a few debs sorted out, I couldn't shift them into MUD to do the actual building and distribution?14:12
Jaffadwd: what're the debs?14:13
Setokmbm: absolutely nothing. I haven't installed anything on it14:13
Setoklast night I tried sending an email but that, of course, did not work14:13
JaffaSetok: configured any RSS feeds?14:13
Setokso I went to bed14:13
keesjYesterday I asked about xmkmf. i just can't imagine that the maemo platform was built without this. why is there no binary package for this?14:13
dwdJaffa: I've done pyopenssl (my fork), pysqlite2. I could probably dump in IPL and Telomer, too.14:13
[mbm]Setok: you probably installed something broken but didn't notice until now after it'd powered off14:13
Setokjaffa: hm.. I added a BBC weather feed14:13
neostriderSetok, try a you have important data on it?14:13
Setokmbm: I haven't installed anything on the device14:13
Setokneo: nope, but I also don't have a windows machine14:14
neostriderme neither =-p14:14
neostriderubuntu rox14:14
Setokwell there's this one at work, but I don't have admin access and I'm guessing that software might require it14:14
Setokneo: I only have Macs14:14
[mbm]reflash it, if that doesn't help go into r&d mode (atleast temporary)14:14
SetokI guess reflashing won't work with a Mac?14:14
neostriderwhere is also a reflasher for mac14:14
[mbm]there's a mac reflash app14:14
neostriderwith cocoa interface indeed14:14
kulveSetok: have your tried to charge the battery?14:15
Jaffadwd: all those should be fine.14:15
SetokI really am somewhat disappointed with the quality of this .. I mean, my colleague here who got one at the same time as me got into the boot loop after one day of use14:15
neostriderwell..the interface is a 3rd party (free) software14:15
Setokkulve: I've got it connected to the wall as we speak14:15
Jaffaneostrider: indeed, I wrote it :)14:15
neostriderjaffa, so I saw you blog yesterday. very cool!14:15
kulveSetok: if you take battery out, put it back, connect it to the wall, it should only start kernel + some daemons, not UI at all. Does it go to the boot loop even then?14:16
neostriderJaffa: that ACORN stuff is already working?14:16
keesjdwd I don't know any reason why not. but i have created my own mud repository for testing purposes . it would be nice if we have such poccess in place14:16
kulveand note: don't press  power button at any phase14:16
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Jaffaneostrider: it was on my 770, I've not tried on the N800 yet. Mouse control is a bit funny, but that's being worked on, as is an ARM-on-ARM JIT :)14:17
[mbm]reminds me, still waiting for a proper suspend mode :/14:17
Jaffakeesj: unfortunately my initial uploads to the incoming queue on extras seem to have fallen into a black hole14:17
Setokkulve: hold on, I'll try14:18
neostriderJaffa: thats what I was wondering. I cant pass the direct ARM code to the processor itself? like, creating a native process?14:18
Setokre: the RSS question ... does that mean I shouldn't install RSS feeds to keep the platform stable? :D14:19
neostriderJaffa: or maybe use it for a generic CPU emulator?14:19
kulveSetok: rss's shouldn't do more that crash the rss reader :)14:19
Jaffaneostrider: indeed, that's the purpose of the JIT. There've been efforts like riscose to re-implement the RISC OS API on Linux, but didn't really get anywhere useful.14:19
Jaffakulve: RSS feeds shouldn't crash the RSS reader.14:20
kulveJaffa: try's14:20
JaffaSetok: there seems to be a bug, add the RSS feed culprit (as it is now) to the bug in Bugzilla.14:20
neostriderJaffa: I know little about RISC OS. was it anywhere near POSIX?14:20
Jaffakulve: I know - they *shouldn't* crash the RSS reader. If external data crashes an app, there's even the possibility of remote vulnerabilities.14:21
Jaffaneostrider: nope, nowhere near :)14:21
Setokdamn, this battery is tight14:21
keesjkuvle the desktop is monolytic. any applet can make  the whole device unusable14:21
kulvekeesj: yep14:21
Jaffaneostrider: and might also be interesting.14:22
neostriderJaffa: I see...well I will keep my eye on the project. RiscOS had one of the greatest user interface I have ever seen14:22
neostriderJaffa: any deb released? I wanna try!14:23
Jaffaneostrider: nope, sorry - basically it can't do anything more than you see in those two photos :-(14:24
Setokkulve: yes, I still have a boot loop14:24
Setokremoved the battery, put it back in, connected to wall14:24
Setoknokia logo up, then blank, then up, then blank14:25
neostriderJaffa: looking forward to try it...if you need beta testers...let me know!14:25
kulveSetok: :(14:25
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kulveSetok: there's one more thing to test, if like playing around.14:25
kulvebefore flashing the whole thing..14:25
SetokI'll have to look around for the OSX reflasher I guess14:25
Setokkulve: what's that?14:25
Jaffaneostrider: will do :)14:25
kulveSetok: well, I requires the flasher..14:26
kulveSetok: you may disable the "lifeguard reset" thingie..14:26
JaffaTo disable the lifeguard reset you need to use the command line.14:26
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Setokkulve: a 770 flasher will be OK with an 800 .. ?14:29
kulveSetok: I think no14:30
kulvethere have been many versions for 770 and at least the older ones won't do14:30
nomisthere also is flasher-3.014:31
Jaffanomis: unfortunately not for Mac OS X14:31
Setokkulve: so you're saying ... I shouldn't use the link you posted? :)14:31
kulveI didn't post any links14:31
Setokoh sorry, it was jaffa14:32
nomisah oh.14:32
valtsuAFAIK the 770 flasher wont work14:32
Setokthe windows flasher software .. does it require admin rights on the machine to install & use it?14:33
kulveSetok: I haven't even seen it..14:34
kulveSetok: just buy a linux computer ;)14:34
Setoknah, I'm quite happy with OSX, after years of fiddling with a Linux laptop and never getting everything to work properly14:34
Jaffavaltsu: some people have told me that it did work with their N800, but I've not tried it myself.14:34
neostriderJaffa: two questions: 1) it requires a RiscOS image, right?  2) in the picture, you are using that keyboard on the 770?14:35
SetokI would've thought a 770 flasher would flash, well, a 770 rom14:35
Setokwhich is hardly likely to be a good idea on an 80014:35
nomisSetok: the flasher does not contain the Rom image.14:36
kulveafaik, the newer flasher works for both14:36
Setoknomis: OK, then it might perhaps work14:37
Setokkulve: probably, but the newer one doesn't have an OSX version, or so I gather14:37
valtsuJaffa: someone told me that it bricks the device and he needed to flash it with new flasher14:38
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SetokOK, the flasher apparently requires admins on the machine14:48
Setokso basically I'm fscked14:48
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Setokanyone want to buy a cheap n800?14:48
Setokbarely used. still has screen plastic14:48
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kulveSetok: n00b14:51
X-FadeSetok: it doesn't need admin..14:51
X-FadeSetok: It needs to access usb. That's all.14:51
Setokfriend over here said it need admin to be installed14:51
Setok(like most windows software, but oh well)14:52
SetokI dunno, I'm just rather pissed off with the device right now14:52
X-Fadelol ;)14:52
SetokI hate crap software or hardware packages. I mean, they're kind of shameful things for a software developer as it makes our industry seem lame (which it is ;-)14:53
SetokI mean, software and computers should all be about helping people to do more14:53
X-FadeSetok: The windows installer is just 5 clicks orso. How hard can it be ;)14:54
kulveSetok: you really think you could get high quality open source stuff with 399e?14:54
mgedmindoes high quality software even exist?14:55
kkitokulve, offcourse, opensource is free14:55
kulvekkito: notice the term 'high quality'..14:55
mgedminhigh quality software that is all about helping people, I mean14:55
mgedminbefore somebody mentions TeX14:56
kkitokulve, ??? i14:56
kkitothe software is the same14:56
Robot101X-Fade: then 12 reboots, download 7 drivers, 3 service packs...14:56
kkitoand the opensource is software no hw14:56
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kkitoand yes, linux runs smooth in the n800, better than other embeddes OS14:56
X-FadeAnd trolling on a channel that is all about creating software for the maemo platform is not productive :) This is not Nokia support.14:57
kkitodon't compare windows mobile or symbian with a linux 1.614:57
Setokkulve: actually, yes14:57
Setokkulve: I didn't pay 400 euros for it14:57
Setok(There's no way I would've paid that much)14:58
zuhkulve: you actually buy the hw and the non-free sw with that 399e... The open source stuff you can get from the 'net without a device.14:58
Setokmgedmin: excellent software is rare, but there is software which mostly works14:58
zuhSo *that* sw should be of good quality, since you _paid_ for it ;)14:58
SetokI mean, I've had and have several devices which have worked OK14:58
zuhThe open source stuff, who cares, it can be fixed :P14:58
mgedmintrue, there exists software you can fall in love with14:58
mgedminvi, mutt, icewm14:59
mgedminand there is software that's just irritating14:59
mgedminevolution, openoffice.org14:59
mgedminthe software on the 770 falls somewhere in between14:59
Setokx-fade: I don't know why you take it personal? I believe the software developers are the one thing that might make the device worthwhile14:59
Setokmy blame is placed very firmly on Nokia14:59
Setokthat's only trolling if you take it personally15:00
Setokwhich it was never meant to be15:00
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kkitoanyways, if you cannot view the power of the linux and n800 you are blind. There are another device with the same hw capabilities that you can listen music, and browse the web with a 800x480 resolution and chat at the same time, with no loss performance?15:00
kulveSetok: guess how many nokia developers are here that has tried to do their best with the given timetables..15:00
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Setokkkito: believe me, I fully appreciate the philosophy of having Linux on it. That's one reason why I was interested and why I am so frustrated Nokia hasn't done their job properly15:01
Setokas the potential is extremely good15:01
Setokkulve: most likely quite a few and it's probably not their fault but their managers and managers' managers15:02
X-FadeSetok: You are still missing the point. The windows flasher has nothing to do with maemo. And thus not this channel.15:03
SetokI don't see why there should be a need to be apologetic. I firmly believe Nokia has released an unfinished product and that they could do better15:03
kulvethere will be updates.15:04
Setokx-fade: I'm not sure what you're getting at?15:04
kulvewait a year and try again15:04
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X-FadeSetok: you are clearly at the wrong place. Please talk about maemo, developing applications etc. here.15:05
Setokx-fade: I came here mainly because this was where I was discussing the platform yesterday and for tips on how it might be possible to get it going again15:05
X-FadeSetok: If you don't like a feature _on_ the N800. Let's discuss that. And try to fix it.15:06
kulveSetok: I'm sure you can find a linux computer to use for flashing15:07
Setokkulve: at some point, probably yes. not right now, though. I'm not sure if the linux machine has arrived at our office yet15:08
Setokit'd be nice to know what caused it to act in this manner15:09
Setokour guess at the moment is the mail software seeing as my friend started using it on the first day and it ended in a boot loop the next day15:09
SetokI started (trying) to use it yesterday but couldn't get smtp to work, for some reason, and left it at that15:10
kulveSetok: there are ways to try to dig the info, if you like playing around with linux which you obviously dislike15:10
Setokand now I have the boot loop15:10
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Setokso there may eb some link15:10
kulveand I have to admit that I have heard so many bad things about the built-in emailer that I won't touch it..15:10
Setokkulve: an exaggeration. I mean, I was thinking that it'd be nice to install an ssh daemon at some point, if possible ;-)15:10
kulveSetok: I installed dropbear yesterday, no hickups15:11
kulveand xterm, etch15:11
Setokhey, come on, you and me spent quite a few nights debugging linux installations :)15:11
kulveSetok: and I still do :)15:11
Setokheh, yeah15:11
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kulveSetok: so, if you do find a linux comp, disable the life guard reset. If it boots up, you can try to install syslog + ssh15:12
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volSetok: if you upgraded busybox that would have put you in that reboot loop15:14
Setokhow does the life guard reset work anyway?15:14
Setokdoes it just check to see if the machine doesn't boot in the specified time?15:14
Setokvol: I haven't done anything with it, seriously15:15
SetokI mean, I got IMAP to work, albeit very slow, and tried to get smtp going, but it didn't work15:15
Setokand hm... added a couple of bookmarks and the BBC RSS weather feed15:15
volah, thats what happened to me. thought maybe we were in the same boat15:15
Setokthat's it15:16
Setokso I haven't installed any software on it or anything15:16
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kulveSetok: the lifeguard checks if some daemon, that cannot be restarted, dies. Then it reboots the thing. Bad things happens, when this kind of daemon dies in the startup always..15:19
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kulvethat ofc shouldn't happen..15:20
Setokis it possible that the daemon simply hasn't started by the time lifeguard checks it?15:20
kulvethey are all started by the life guard15:20
kulvemessed up jffs can cause boots too, but that's more unlikely..15:22
Setokjffs = ?15:23
kulvethe flash file system15:23
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kulvejournalling flash file system 2 (or something like that)15:24
kulveSetok: if you need mails, use ssh+pine :)15:25
kulveand I do agree again, that some graphical good behaving client would beat pine with that input method15:26
SetokOK, at least Nokia's own update software requires admins to install15:28
Setokso it looks like that for now there's nothing I can really do15:29
kulveI'm not sure if you can do anything but reflash the whole with that windows tool15:29
kulveusing the flasher-3.0 command line tool, you can tweak kernel args etc15:30
kulvenever done that though..15:30
Setokyeah, probably. now I was just trying to get it back in some kind of order15:31
SetokI don't have any kind of access to any Linux machines atm so flasher-3.0 is out, for the moment15:31
Setokunless it can be trivially compiled for OSX15:31
kulveSetok: unfortunately it's one of those many closed source things.. :/15:32
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mgedminthe lag between supported oses is certainly annoying15:32
mgedminbut for once linux is not the lagging one15:33
Setokkulve: ah. damn15:33
Jaffaflasher-2.0 certainly might be able to disable the lifeguard reset15:34
Setokare there technical reasons why the tab wouldn't have a hard reset on the device itself?15:41
Setokthat tends to be the norm with many devices15:41
kulvewhat would the "hardreset" do?15:42
kulvethe device should have 2x256M flashes, one for use, and one for hardresetting everything?15:42
SetokI was just thinking what it might do on other devices15:43
SetokI mean, basically empty configurations and all files15:43
melmothAaaargh, my 2G cartridge i receieved last week just died :((15:43
kulvewith smaller flashe sizes, it would be nice to have that "backup" flash. But the flasher is cheaper15:43
SetokI doubt other devices use a backup flash, or maybe they do15:43
kulveSetok: not that simple, when user can install anything anywhere15:43
Setokmore like just empty everything15:44
Setokkulve: I know, but you could keep a record of what is pre-installed15:44
Setokand then basically remove everything else15:44
SetokI know it's not as clear cut with a platform like that15:44
kulveyep. The list would be too big and too hard to maintain. You can upgrade anything, you can add anything, you change change anything..15:45
kulvewith any tool.15:45
kulvelike dd15:45
Setokoh, well sure, if the user goes to that level then too bad15:45
kulveif you want to start over, you need to flash it. And that can be done with linux and windows.15:45
Setokbut if you think of a consumer they would at the most be installing the odd 3rd party tool15:46
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SetokI mean, it'd probably resolve this situation15:46
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Setokany ideas how the email software might have broken things?15:46
kulveno. A far fetch would be that it filled you flash in some buggy busy loop.15:47
kulvebug I think that actually requires root..15:47
kulvenormal user can't fill it that full15:47
kulvebut I don't have *any* experience with email on that device15:48
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SetokI was thinking what if it filled up the swap area and there was a bug there which allowed an overwrite or something15:48
Setok(pure speculation)15:48
kulvethe swap is just a single file on the mmc15:50
kulveI think that can't happen15:50
kulvebut you not the first one I hear gotten into boot loop after email, so it seems to do something really evil15:50
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neostriderI was about to ask kees about xmoto16:18
neostrideranyone knows about mud-builder here?16:19
JaffaYeah, me.16:19
Jaffatzz has had a play too. But I've written the framework16:19
Jaffaneostrider: the mud mailing list may well be a better place though, as it'll give me a chance to answer when I'm less busy at work ;-(16:20
neostrideri dont like posting...only reading ;-)16:20
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neostriderits becouse i tried mud get xmoto16:21
neostriderFailed to run get on xmoto:16:21
neostridermismatched tag at line 641, column 22, byte 19350 at /scratchbox/tools/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/XML/ line 18716:21
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Jaffaneostrider: sounds like xmoto.xml has a bug.16:21
keesjneostrider: I am just back I have not read the full topic16:21
neostrideractully, you did read it =-P16:22
neostriderwe just started when you arrived16:22
neostriderim trying to fech it16:22
hubdamn, Contacts is not available for N77016:22
neostriderneither minimo16:23
keesjI think I have pased it this morning with xmllint -format16:23
neostriderI would love to have minimo16:23
neostriderkeesj: i didnt compreended what you said16:23
Jaffaxmoto.xml looks ok16:24
keesjneostrider: sorry , neither do I. I have cheked and formated the xml it this morning for xml validity using xmllint16:25
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neostriderwell..i will update the mud then16:25
neostriderahhh..ok =-)16:25
neostriderthere is any easy way to update?16:25
keesjyup svn update in the mud-builder diretory16:25
SetokOK, good news folks16:26
SetokI managed to install the n800 ROM with the OSX flasher tool16:26
Setok(even though it says it is for the 770)16:26
kulverom sounds weird :)16:26
kulveit's the fiasco :)16:26
Setokin other news, my friend's n800 is in a boot loop atm again16:27
neostriderfiasco sound weird to me16:27
neostriderin brazillian portuguese fiasco means "failure" hahahah16:27
kulveneostrider: doesn't it sound just right :)16:27
kulveneostrider: exactly :)16:27
Setok"the email software got stuck, so I shut it, then I shut the device, now it is in a boot loop"16:27
neostriderbrazillian too?16:27
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kenderneostrider, hehehe, same in spanish16:27
Setokseems like it has an email client from hell16:27
dwdneostrider: It's used in en_gb as well, meaning a chaotic failure.16:27
kulveSetok: it has always been pretty terrible16:28
neostriderindeed, after two years, im still figuring out how to pronounce maemo heheheh16:28
* dwd is doing his best to sort out a viable alternative.16:28
Setokkulve: yes. having said that, an application like that shouldn't be able to kill the OS16:29
Setokso there is some bug somewhere, probably in both the app and the OS environment16:29
Setokjust a matter of narrowing it down to something16:30
Setokneo: I'm calling it "mamma"16:30
kulveSetok: ofc it should be able to kill the env, but it's not trivial to shield it either16:30
kulve+not :)16:31
maddlerab: welcome!16:31
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dwdSetok: If an application needs to write a substantial amount of data to flash, it can have the effect of making everything else unresponsive, which kicks in the lifeguard.16:31
neostrideri didnt know it was some of a universal word =-P16:31
keesjI am completely lost on what subjects are and are not oke on this channel. if anybody thinks I am off limits with xmoto and mud pleast tell me so16:31 updating mud to try to build xmoto16:32
Setokdwd: that may be, and probably a problem. OTOH even then it shouldn't boot loop16:32
keesjI have revieced great help and won't be mad16:32
* Jaffa wouldn't have thought so, but then I'm biasd.16:32
neostriderstill the same error16:32
neostriderkeesj: the same error on mud16:32
abmaddler: thanks :-)16:33
Setokdwd: anyway, it seems the problem is semi-reproducible, which will help16:33
Jaffaneostrider: you switch to the mud-builder directory, and do `svn up' and it reports "At revisiion 116".16:33
dwdSetok: It doesn't distinguish between the device locking up because apps are doing the right thing, and the device locking up because an app is doing something very wrong. That'd need it to detirmine intent, which is tricky programmatically.16:33
neostriderJaffa: yes... it did it16:34
Jaffadwd: Mmm, the halting problem.16:34
keesjthe mud file is not that long line?? 64116:34
dwdJaffa: You get extra marks for solving that.16:34
Jaffaneostrider: then you type "mud build xmoto" and it gives you what?16:34
kenderif I made packages with kernel modules for the n800 kernel, where can I host them? maemo extra maybe? with mud project?16:34
maddlerab: hehehehe... thank you...16:34
maddlerab: MaemoPeople is growing! :D16:34
Jaffadwd: Sod the marks, I'll have the fame, glory and money16:34
neostrider[sbox-SDK_PC: ~] > mud build xmoto16:34
neostrider+++ Trying to build package [xmoto]16:34
neostriderFailed to run build on xmoto:16:34
neostridermismatched tag at line 641, column 22, byte 19350 at /scratchbox/tools/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/XML/ line 18716:34
dwdJaffa: No, your employer will.16:34
Jaffadwd: Ah, I am at work at the moment, true. But I'd sue 'em if they tried to claim it outside of work time.16:35
Setokdwd: the solution there, on an abstract level, would be to put checks in place to limit the stream of data and the rate written to the card16:35
Setokso that the device does not become unresponsive16:35
Jaffaneostrider: using which version of Maemo in your scratchbox? And is up to date?16:35
dwdSetok: Hmmm. You mean, slow it down in order to make it work better?16:35
Setokdwd: pretty much, yes :-)16:35
Setokwell, you could do it in a smart way, based on the amount of data sent in a timeframe16:36
dwdSetok: Actually, preemptible async I/O might be a good plan here.16:36
neostriderSDK is mistral16:36
Setokdwd: yeah16:36
Setokdwd: but how would all of this explain the resulting boot loop?16:36
neostriderJaffa: SDK is mistral...i dont remember what version the scratchbox is...I dont know how to update that too16:36
Jaffaneostrider: `fakeroot apt-get -u upgrade' doesn't report anything?16:36
dwdSetok: Ah. I suspect that's probably the jffs garbage collector locking things up at boot.16:37
neostriderE: Invalid operation upgrade doesnt16:37
Setokdwd: OK. Wouldn't that be easyish to fix?16:37
neostriderJaffa: Im some of a newbie in linux...i came from S60 world =-P16:37
neostriderJaffa: but Ive been a linux user and curious since 1998...but only a regular user for about 3 years16:38
neostriderJaffa: so I dont know much ;-)16:38
dwdSetok: Probably not. It's a bit too low-level for me.16:39
Setokdwd: oh, I didn't mean you specifically16:39
dwdSetok: No, I mean, too low-level for me to understand how fixable it might be.16:39
neostriderJaffa: sorry... i forgot to erase the rest of your sentence in the command line16:40
Setokon and btw folks, sorry if I caused offense in any remarks. It was not my intention and I have nothing against maemo developers or anything16:40
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kulveSetok: you weren't the first :)16:40
Setokjust general frustration that Nokia couldn't move the deadline or do what it takes to make the n800 as good as it should be16:40
neostriderJaffa: now it gave a lot of messages about "stat (2 No such file or directory)"16:40
kulvefor me this is a nice toy. I didn't expect too much from it :)16:40
keesjI have 3 sdk's installed on 2 different machines (mistral,scirocco,and bora) building xmoto fails on mistral and scirocco for different reasons16:41
SetokI mean, the platform philosophy is excellent16:41
neostriderkeesj: mistral and scirocco dont clash?16:41
neostriderkeesj: diferent directories?16:41
keesjneostrider: perhaps your installation was not complete? it requires about 2gig and if it is not there you are in trouble because the installer will not detect this16:42
Setokbut if Nokia can't really excel themselves, they may end up with competition from Apple later on and I'm not convinced that will end up well for the n80016:42
keesjneostrider: on different machines16:42
keesjInconsistency detected by rtld.c: 288: _dl_start_final: Assertion `info->l.l_tls_modid == 0' failed!16:42
Jaffakeesj: what are the debian/control differences which caused you patch problems? Could it be something we could force set to maintain compatiblity?16:42
neostriderkeesj: ive installed it manually16:42
keesjfor this bug I need to patch my kernel :(16:43
neostriderkeesj: I guess it is complete...i could build bomberman flawlessly16:43
kulvekeesj: VDSO16:43
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keesjkulve: thanks I know it has to do with VDSO bug I have not been able to fix the problem yet (that install in under ubuntu)16:45
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kulveI got the same error when starting SB and setting CONFIG_COMPAT_VDSO=y in kernel fixed it..16:46
keesjso I need to get a new kernel right?16:47
kulveI had the compile mine, yes16:47
kulve(I use vanilla kernel)16:47
kulveand have the config in /proc/config.gz16:47
neostriderwell folks16:48
neostriderim leaving16:48
neostridersee you later16:48
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keesjJaffa: it what the  Standards-Version: 3.6.116:49
keesjbut I cannot reproduce it right now the other version was Standards-Version: 3.6.016:50
Jaffakessj: ok, so once the control file's generated, just hard-code it to 3.6.0 :-)16:50
kenderhow are the mantainers / admins of the garage?16:53
Jaffahow or who?16:53
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kenderand, the answer is....16:57
keesjkender: that is a trade sectert16:57
keesjit's like asking who works for nokia16:58
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||cwnokia's employee's names are a trade secret?16:58
kenderok, so, there is a project, but the only developer doesn't answer me, I have to create another one, because anybody is able to delete that empty project?16:59
kenderor, give me access to that project..17:00
c0ffeethe people that write about garage downtimes are a good bet17:00
keesjthere is also a garage email did you try that?17:00
kenderonly the "join request" and his private email17:01
valtsukender: what's your project?17:01
kendervaltsu, maemo-fm17:01
valtsukender: the developer could hang in here17:01
kenderI want to continue developing...17:02
valtsuirc is much faster than email ;)17:02
kenderyes, I know17:02
kenderthe project is emply, as if the developer, has started investigating, but then he forget about it17:03
valtsusounds like me :D17:03
|tbb|_how do i install that file on my maemo3 scratchbox?17:04
valtsukender: start something and never finish it17:04
kendervaltsu, ah, hehehe, yes, I have done that too17:04
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mgedmin|tbb|_: fakeroot dpkg -i filename.deb17:05
mgedminor use apt-get17:05
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|tbb|_mgedmin first doesnt worked for me before and apt-get will only work if i got the repository isnt it so?17:11
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|tbb|_so  i dont have the repository17:11
jonekhi, got my N800 via developer discount - big THX to Nokia ;-)17:12
jonekanybody free for a video chat test?17:12
Jaffakender: - or grab ferenc when he's here. What's the project, OOI?17:12
kenderJaffa, maemo-fm17:13
keesjjonek: we can try , but  I have never tried it either17:13
kenderJaffa, thanks for the info, I'll mail him later on17:14
Jaffakender: if might be worth suggesting instead of taking ownership of the project, that they might consider a tidy up of projects which have been registered but don't use any garage facilities. They'd sent out an email, and give people - say - a month to respond or the project is deleted. Then you can open yours with the same name (or a different one straight away)17:15
keesjthis is what I look like
keesjstill wanna chat?17:17
kenderkeesj, the donkey?17:17
keesjyes , that's me17:17
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keesjbut my hair is different now17:17
kenderJaffa, ok, I'll do it17:17
|tbb|_[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > dpkg -i /tmp/statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb17:18
|tbb|_dpkg-deb: `/tmp/statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb' is not a debian format archive17:18
kenderkeesj, do you have time, and the n800 on your hands now?17:18
nomis|tbb|_: huh?17:18
nomis|tbb|_: any idea whats wrong with it? I think that is the very .deb file I installed in my scratchbox.17:19
dwd|tbb|_: What does "file" say?17:19
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nomis(and since people managed to install it on their N800s it cannot be that far off...17:20
keesjkender: it is connected17:21
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X-FadeHmm nokia really needs to open it's internal bugzilla. Or at least make some kind of proxy for it..17:27
X-FadeThey keep slapping #NB nummers around our ears, but we can't check them :(17:27
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Setokwell folks, thanks for the assistance17:32
SetokI'm heading off to the real office where magic takes place17:32
mgedminI bet that statusbarclock .deb file is actually a html file17:32
mgedminstupid sourceforge-lookalike download systems17:32
Setokmight even try looking at getting some coding done for the n800 to see how it works17:32
JaffaX-Fade: where now?17:32
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maddlerkeesj: are you inside or outside the car?17:33
|tbb|_[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > file /tmp/statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb17:34
|tbb|_/tmp/statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb: gzip compressed data, from Unix, max compression17:34
X-FadeJaffa: In a bugreport I issued.17:34
X-FadeJaffa: Weird thing is, that you can only see it in the notification mail.17:34
keesjmaddlet outside those things can kill you17:34
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JaffaX-Fade: odd17:36
mgedmindeb files are not gzipped data17:41
mgedminthey're supposed to be ar archives with two .tar.gz inside17:41
dwd|tbb|: You could try ungzipping it, and see what file says about it then.17:45
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X-FadeJaffa: Ah, no it is in the alias field of bug 1008.17:47
Andy80every time I reboot my pc I've to execute: /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start    to make scratchbox work again. Is there a way to execute it automatically? Do I have to add it to /etc/profile of my machine?17:47
* mgedmin downloads the deb17:47
mgedmin$ file statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb17:47
mgedminstatusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb: Debian binary package (format 2.0)17:47
mgedminlooks right17:47
nomis|tbb|: when I download the URL mentioned above with wget the resulting file is a "statusbarclock_0.6_armel.deb: Debian binary package (format 2.0)" according to file.17:48
maddlerJaffa: nokia just refunded 26eur because of the delay in the delivery :D17:48
mgedminAndy80: no, better create a symlink in /etc/rc?.d/17:48
mgedminAndy80: what linux distro do you use?17:48
Andy80mgedmin: ubuntu edgy17:49
mgedminAndy80: if you'd've installed scratchbox with apt-get like I did, you wouldn't need to worry about init scripts17:49
Andy80mgedmin: no I used manual installation because "someone" wrote on his blog that apt way didn't work for him on edgy (6.10)17:50
mgedminworked for me17:50
mgedminanyway, create a symlink /etc/rc2.d/S20scratchbox -> /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl17:51
Andy80tnx :)17:51
Jaffamaddler: cool :)17:54
garretthey everyone17:54
* Andy80 wish I could upgrade my Nokia 6600 with apt-get too :D17:56
maddlerJaffa: yep...17:58
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Andy80a simple question: applications for maemo are GTK(C) or GTK+(C++) applications? Are both languages available?18:43
kulveI think there's not such thing as GTK, it's GTK+18:44
kulvefor C++ there's gtkmm, i.e. c++ bindings fro gtk+18:44
Takthat's correct18:45
kulveGTK+ is the "official" API, but there are pretty nice bindings for c++ and something for python18:45
Takalso, you can use gtk+ from c++, you just have to deal with gtk objects being gobjects instead of shiny c++ classes18:46
Andy80ah ok, thanks!18:47
Andy80and... another thing: what is the path of .h files inside the /scratchbox folder?18:48
Andy80I'm trying to build a db for code completion in kdevelop18:48
Andy80and I need to specify the folder where .h files are located18:48
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kulveAndy80: not exactly sure what you mean. If you install a -dev -package (headers) they go usually to /usr/include inside the target. From outside it's /scratcbhox/users/<name>/targets/<targetname>/usr/include18:50
TakAndy80: for gtk+, or for standard headers?18:50
Andy80Tak: both.... mainly gtk/hildon18:51
Takyou're using kdevelop outside the scratchbox, correct?18:51
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Takthen it would be /usr/include for standard headers, the paths listed in `pkg-config --cflags gtk+-2.0` for gtk+18:55
Andy80Tak: I use kdevelop outside, to develop files that are inside the scratchbox...18:58
Takso then you'll want to prepend /scratchbox/users/whateveryourusernameis/targets/SDK_WHATEVER/ to the above paths18:59
Andy80ok, thanks :)19:00
Andy80off course I don't pretend to compile from inside the kdevelop (it would be too much integration ;) ) I just want to code with kdevelop and then build inside the box19:01
kulvethat's how I do it with emacs19:03
TakI mainly code and build outside the box, then test inside, and for things that can't really be done outside, use vim inside19:04
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|tbb|do i have to setup anything while using wget with https sites?19:18
Jaffashouldn't do19:20
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maddlertbb... sometimes --no-check-certificate19:21
|tbb|that was the problem19:22
|tbb|anyone knows how to change the statusbarclock to show it analog19:23
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|tbb|wget on maemo3 doesnt show me this option with -h19:24
maddler|tbb|: it's controlled by main clock status19:24
maddlerheya elpaso...19:25
|tbb|ah k, thx maddler19:25
maddlertime to leave here...19:25
maddlerlater dudes!19:25
elpasoI nmapped the 800, port 6000/tcp is open, does anybody know why?19:25
[mbm]elpaso: X1119:25
elpasois this normal?19:25
mgedminit probably is, but I think it should not be19:27
elpasoi have sshd running...19:27
elpasothis could be the reason19:27
pbrookThe prot may be open, but it's not accepting X connections.19:27
pbrook... or mine isn't anyway :-)19:28
mgedminX has access controls19:28
mgedminbut still, why is it even listening on TCP?19:28
[mbm]so you can have fun sending remote x11 apps to it19:28
mgedminthe only open port on my 770 is ssh19:29
|tbb|mgedmin: do u know where i can get the source of the bora rssfeedreaderapplet19:29
mgedmin[mbm]: that's what ssh X forwarding is for19:29
mgedmintbb, no19:29
[mbm]mgedmin: if it was a real system yes, but ssh adds overhead19:30
[mbm]the n800 doesn't seem to cope too well with running x11 over ssh19:30
[mbm]I tried19:30
mgedminstill, one of the arguments in the thread about iptables on the 770 was that it has no open ports by default19:30
mgedminI'm surprised the n800 has one19:30
[mbm]works good enough for running xhost, at which point you switch to direct19:30
elpasois there a wget binary for the 800?19:32
elpasoor a more complete busybox, maybe19:33
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mgedminthere was a wget for the 77019:35
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mgedminit should work19:35
pbrookelpaso: My n800 has wget19:35
elpasopbrook: ?? out of the box?19:35
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elpaso-sh: wget: not found19:36
elpasoperhaps it's not in my path?19:36
pbrookelpaso: Oh, sorry, ignore me.19:37
pbrookWrong terminal tab :-)19:38
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elpasogot wget from it2006, woks fine19:44
jeepershi folks19:45
jeepersanyone on here using the vmware maemo image?19:45
JaffaI'm using *a* VMware Maemo image, but not konfoo's (yet)19:48
jeepersdid you get it from the vmware site?19:49
jeepersi'm guessing you built your own19:49
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Jaffajeepers: indeed. I've got konfoo's version at home on my Mac, but not tried it yet19:53
jeepersah, well... one problem i'm running into with that version is - apparently - the python version on it is not 2.5 and does not have the proper gtk bindings or gtk is messed up in some way...19:54
jeepersi also get gtk definition errors when trying to compile C code.19:55
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jeepersi guess what i'll do is go through the manual steps of setting up an environment within the image and see if that fixes anything19:56
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|tbb|how can i find / | grep anything under maemo3 scratchbox20:10
keesjgrep -r asf /20:11
|tbb|permission denied20:12
keesjperhaps something like this will also work find / -type f -print -exec grep sfasd \{\} \;20:12
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|tbb|also with fakeroot before20:12
keesjtry adding fakeroot grep -r /20:12
keesjand if you just try the /usr ?20:12
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|tbb|if i would like to search under usr i have aksed for that, but i want to search the whole system ;), well pherhaps i can do it from outside the scratchbox20:15
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mgedminpermission denied where?20:21
|tbb|inside scratchbox using find /20:22
mgedminI can imagine being denied to search in /proc20:22
mgedminmaybe bits of /sys20:22
mgedminbut the rest of scratchbox should be accessible20:22
|tbb|yes the errors came up in /proc and it goes me on my nerfes20:24
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mgedminfind / -xdev ...20:26
|tbb|what exaxtly will dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot do?20:27
jpetersenare there mono packages for bora?20:27
|tbb|mgedmin thx20:27
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tolgam|tbb|: build a package...20:28
|tbb|and where does it goes?20:29
tolgamin the current path20:29
|tbb|so it might be havent work for me :/20:30
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tolgamwhat does dpkg-buildpackage says ?20:30
tolgamif it fails, it should tell you why20:30
mgedminactually the deb produced by dpkg-buildpackage ends up in ../20:31
|tbb|oh ../bla.deb it was20:31
tolgamhum.. yes, you're right mgedmin. It's because dpkg-buildpackage is called from the source directory20:32
tolgamforgot that :p20:32
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|tbb|hmmh i try to start osso-worldclock i became20:38
|tbb|internal error clock closed20:38
|tbb|osso_worldclock[17436]: GLIB CRITICAL ** default - ui_load_images: assertion `map_pixbuf' failed20:38
|tbb|do i need to install anything before?20:40
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tolgamdon't think so20:41
tolgamor maybe the lib for pixbuf20:42
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TexratHey gang20:44
|tbb| maemo_af_desktop[20635]: We could not read lowmem page stats.20:47
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|tbb|i became that after installing everything what apt-cache search pixbuf matched the criteria20:54
tolgamdunno how to help you with that...20:57
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* tolgam goes cooking...20:59
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|tbb|hmmh, ive downloaded the source of statusbarclock applet, then ive changed the color of the  2 digits png files and recompiled them after building successfully a new deb file and installing them the digits still have the same color ;( any idea what ive made wrong21:11
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nomis|tbb|: you need to regenerate the .h file generated from the PNG.21:17
pbrookhave you restarted?21:18
nomis|tbb|: but I am right now unsure, does the code in SVN already contain the gdk_pixbuf_fill_color() utility function in statusbarclock.c ?21:18
|tbb|pbrook: yes, nomis cant check it now, will try it later21:19
nomis|tbb|: if it is in the code then this is a way to easily change the color.21:20
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* keesj just had his first n800 video call. the video quatlity was oke(good enough for online sex)21:23
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* Tak makes a note to video call keesj at the first opportunity21:31
keesjA nice thing we developers could make is a wall of n800 pictures , a website with just one page fille with pics taken with the n80021:32
ajturnerkeesj - or pics of the N800 in various places? ;)21:33
ajturnerkeesj - they should/could be geotagged too (therefore mappable)21:33
Takhas anybody released a photo app yet?21:35
garretttwo pages that show N800 pics from different people, both different UIs (thumbnails and on a map)21:37
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keesjgarrett: I have such brilliant ideas at least a few times a week :( . I was more thinking of something like this
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nelsonWe need a robot which answers a video call, and posts a snap.21:49
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Taka foulmouthed, alcoholic robot!21:50
garrettthat would be neat21:50
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jeepersCdoes anyone know what is wrong with the repository?22:21
||cwit had some bad shrimp22:22
jeepersCactually, i can't hit any maemo related repositories from within scratchbox...22:22
* ||cw hides22:22
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jeepersCyeah, | |cw... you better hide...22:23
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jeepersCbad shrimp....22:23
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tigertjeepers: can you ping anything from within?22:30
tigertjeepers: remember it's a chroot22:30
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tigertso, inside scratchbox, /etc/resolv.conf is one thing to check..22:30
jeepersroger... let me check...22:31
tigerttry just pinging or wgetting anything from within22:31
jeepersping command not available... trying elsewise...22:32
maddlerjeepers: check /etc/resolv.con22:33
maddlerin your target22:33
jeepersyeah... i did and that's probably it.. it only has localhost... i didn't think of that (obviously)22:33
TakI wonder why the installer script doesn't hit resolv.conf22:34
Takhas anybody made a bug report/feature request for that?22:34
maddlerbut I was fighting with it too22:36
maddlernot sure wether it is a bug or a configuration issue22:37
TakIMO it should copy the host's resolv.conf into the scratchbox22:37
jeepersresolv.conf changed but still no joy on a wget22:37
Takthe case where you want the internal dns settings to be different than the external ones is rare at best22:38
jeepersan ifconfig shows me on the right ip22:38
jpetersencheck /scratchbox/etc/nsswitch.conf22:38
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jeepersit's the same as my external file22:41
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jpetersenjeepers: that could be a problem, if the hosts line contains modules which don't exist in the scratchbox (problem with ubuntu feisty)22:44
jeepersmmm... maybe... there isn't much there however22:45
jeepersand i'm running the maemo image from vmware22:45
jpetersenok than it will be another problem22:45
jeepersi'm eliminating other environment issues currently... removing myself from a restrictive network22:46
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jeepersgoing away for a sec...22:52
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c0ffeewho comes up with those strange names22:54
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maddlersomeone windy!22:59
maddlergrecale is southe-east wind23:00
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[mbm]garrett: get an n800 yet?23:10
garrettit's great23:11
garrettlittle bugs and UI issues all over23:11
[mbm]I've had mine a few weeks now, tons of fun23:11
garrettI like it a lot23:11
garrettand it shows lots of promise23:11
garrettI bet you've been doing all sorts of stuff with it (;23:12
[mbm]my biggest complaint is that I have to turn the damn thing off or it drains the battery23:12
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garrettI need to get an AC adapter specifically for work23:12
hap[mbm]: same here23:12
garrettI bring mine back and forth currently23:13
garrettstrangely enough, one of my uses of the device that I didn't forsee is as an Internet radio23:13
[mbm]garrett: speaking of fun stuff -
* garrett looks23:13
garretthow well does that work?23:13
garrettI would LOVE that, as I'm a lefty23:13
[mbm]it doesn't23:14
[mbm]that was just done by running xrandr23:14
garrettI see23:14
[mbm]and the touchscreen seems to have been screwed up in the rotate23:14
garrettoh ):23:14
[mbm]plus the x server is horribly confused and redraws the wrong part of the screen23:14
garrettyeah, the touchscreen would have to be rotated, the buttons would have to be remapped, the stereo speakers would have to be swapped23:15
garrettthe camera would have to be flipped23:15
garrettthe scrollbars would have to be put on the other side (for proper lefty support too)23:15
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[mbm]yeah, camera didn't actually flip23:16
garrettit would be questionable to swap the placement of the sidebar -- I find it works pretty well as is23:16
[mbm]but then the xv didn't either so it cancled out in the picture23:16
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garrettoh, then there's the issue of the stand (;23:16
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[mbm]stand makes a nice hand grip23:16
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garrettyes, true23:16
maddler[mbm]: are you in the oopenwrt stuff?23:16
garrettspeaking of hand grip, I've been using mine on the subway as an ebook reader23:16
[mbm]maddler: yeah, I started the project23:17
garrettfbreader is nice23:17
maddlerI love you!!!23:17
garrettI found that Doom on the N800 is totally unusable for a lefty, fwiw23:17
[mbm]waiting for my sd cards to show up and then I'll mess around booting openwrt on an sd card23:17
[mbm]ordered two 4G cards off amazon with priority shipping23:18
garrettwhich ones?23:18
[mbm]which apparently means "wait two days before shipping"23:18
[mbm]the transcend ones23:18
[mbm]think it was $55 when I bought them23:18
garrett[mbm]: heh, I won't even tell you what overnight means to, the people who handle the nokia web store (evidently)23:18
maddlerI'm waiting too...23:18
[mbm]they also had unbranded ones for $4023:18
maddlergood price...23:19
maddlertrannscend are good23:19
[mbm]maddler: I would have bought those but the comment said that they misspelled 'secure digital' on the card23:19
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[mbm]so I bought the transcend ones23:19
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maddlerI bet...23:20
maddleropenwrt is G_R_E_A_T!!!23:20
[mbm]ordered them wed evening, got an email this afternoon telling me the shipping numbers (unshipped as of yet)23:20
[mbm]so much for 2 day delivery23:20
[mbm]guessing the screen protector I ordered shows up first23:21
maddlerwhich one?23:21
[mbm]anotehr generic brand23:21
[mbm]not even sure it'll work23:21
maddlerI'm going to buy Duratec on ebay23:22
[mbm]but the film that came on the n800 is getting so scratched up that I thought I'd swap23:22
maddlerI found them good23:22
maddlermine is still usable...23:22
tigertits funny people worry about screen protectors23:23
tigertI have my 770 in pretty good condition still after almost a  year23:23
tigertthe screen is meant to be poked at23:23
[mbm]tigert: yeah, thought about that since the n800 seems to have a pretty good screen23:23
keesjcan you still use the stylis with  screen protector ?23:23
[mbm]tigert: but I figured I'd rather have an unscratched protector than a scratched screen23:24
[mbm]if I was going to take chances23:24
tigert[mbm]: yeah, but in practice I have noticed it is pretty tough23:24
tigertof course I see your point23:24
tigertyou paid for this23:24
tigertbut I abuse mine a lot more23:24
tigertsince I didnt23:24
tigertand its pretty fine still23:24
tigertwhat I mean is: its not that easy to ruin it23:25
[mbm]might be too thick for the stylus23:25
[mbm]not sure yet23:25
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[mbm]price was right23:25
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[mbm]ordered those normal shipping, bet they show up before my priority sd shipment (which was on the same amazon order)23:26
garrett[mbm]: I've heard some of the psp screen protectors are the right size and work well23:27
maddlertigert, my 770 is still good without any screen protection but I feel like 800 is more vulnerable23:27
garrettand can be picked up in game stores, like ebgames, gamestop, etc.23:27
tigertmaddler: I think the screen material is more or less the same?23:27
tigertthe screen itself is different, better quality and stronger backlight in the N80023:27
garrett[mbm]: that one is a good price though (;23:28
garrettand should hopefully work fine23:28
[mbm]garrett: should have thought of it when I was at frys looking for sd cards23:29
[mbm](which btw they have a lousy selection of)23:29
maddlertiger, no it's more resistant23:29
tzzmbm: I use dd-wrt currently, didn't know about openwrt when I flashed last month.  I've been thinking about switching.  The openwrt wiki doesn't really compare the two, is there a comparison somewhere?  I couldn't find it through google.23:30
keesjtigert: I am not the kind to have screen protector, or be carefull with my car :p23:30
tzz(sorry, I know this is off-topic)23:30
[mbm]tzz: openwrt really aims at being a linux distro, not a web interface23:30
keesjI am very disapointed that my 770 is rendered unusable because some areas of the screen are not repsonding to input any more.23:31
tzzmbm: OK, but feature-wise how do the two compare?  Can you do task X with openwrt foreach task in dd-wrt.  That's kind of hard to find out, that's why I asked.23:32
[mbm]tzz: if you don't mind commandline there's really no limit to what you can do with openwrt23:33
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tigertkeesj: oh, broken touchscreen?23:33
tigertthat sucks23:33
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[mbm]openwrt sucks for web interface stuff23:33
tigertspeaking of offtopic23:33
maddlertigert: the "default" screen cover is not very scratch resistant...23:33
tigertmy wrt54G doesnt boot23:33
tigertis there any way except the internal serial port to flash it?23:33
tzzmbm: got it, thanks.  I don't mind the command line, been using it for a while.23:34
maddler[mbm]: yep... openwrt is fantastic...23:34
tigertresetting doesnt seem to help23:34
maddlertigert: not even tftp?23:34
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nomisis dropbear available for the N800?23:34
tigertmaddler: I dont know23:34
tigertnomis: I use openssh23:34
[mbm]tigert: set your computer to a 192.168.1.x address and start pinging as the router boots, if it pings you can fix it just with tftp23:34
gpd<offtopic> are 10,000rpm drives worth the cash?23:34
tigertnomis: why dropbear specifically?23:34
tigert[mbm]: good to know23:35
tigertneed to try when I have time23:35
maddlergpd: it depends... if you care about speed, I'd say yes :)23:35
Takdoes anybody happen to know if the descriptions in the new app catalog accept html?23:35
keesji use midge and a edimax with two usb sticks23:35
tzzgpd: not unless you are running something specific, like high-availability webserver or database.23:35
maddlertigert: drop me a line if you need help...23:35
garrettopenssh is better, as I can sftp and such23:35
tigertmaddler: will do23:35
garrettall the ssh stuff doesn't work well when sshing to the device unless you are streaming radio or loading a huge web page23:36
||cwtigert: because it uses half the memory of openssh?  db supports scp, good enough23:36
garrettas soon as you stop, then your network drops23:36
[mbm]tigert: as for serial port, the easy way to get a serial port on an embeded device (wrt or n770/800) is to go buy one of those usb data transfer cables for a cellphone23:36
garrettat least for me23:36
garretta bit annoying23:36
gpdthis is to go with my new GeForce 8800GTS etc. I need a  new drive for Vista - so should consider 10k23:36
tzz10K drives are insanely expensive compared to regulars.  Flash drives will make them obsolete IMO.23:36
maddlertigert: you are welcome... you have been one of my "masters" for maemo :D23:36
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tigertgarrett: oh23:36
||cwgarrett: is that new to the 800?  770 didn't have that issue23:36
tigertgarrett: there is a difference,23:36
[mbm]cellphones are either usb or serial, and the usb is just a usb->serial that runs at 3.3v23:36
tigertgarrett: if you open the connection from the globe icon yourself23:36
tigertit stays up23:36
tigertif you use an app that "asks" for net23:37
tigertit opens it until the app stops23:37
||cwgpd: 10k sata2?23:37
tigertthen after an idle time it closes it23:37
nomistigert: uh, dropbear, because that is what I used on the 770  :)23:37
[mbm]so you look for the cable with the serial chip in it23:37
tigertso, open the connection yourself and it should stay up23:37
tigertnomis: openssh works nicely too, the N800 has more ram too23:37
tigertwell, flash23:37
gpd||cw: yes - 74G Average Seek 4.6 compared to 8.9ms for 500G23:37
maddlernomis: at the 770 time I also had the feeling dropbear was lighter...23:37
[mbm]basically, connecting serial console to a wrt54g is $10 for the cable and 3 wires to connect .. nothing difficult23:37
tigertnomis: I just added the maemo repository for bora to the device23:38
garretttigert: oh, I see23:38
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tigertand installed ssh with redpill mode23:38
garretteven for a saved network?23:38
||cwgpd: not the WD 500G I hope...23:38
chaosI don't suppose there's anyone on with GLIB/iconv experience?23:38
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tigertgarrett: yea, if you open it yourself23:38
gpd||cw: why not that? [I have one]23:38
maddlertigert: hmmm... never considered that...23:38
tigertit should stay up23:38
Takheh, the answer is no23:38
garrettthe number lock is nice, but it's annoying that it is a little window with tiny buttons23:38
garrettI want to push buttons with fingers!23:38
tigertmaddler: what? :)23:38
garrettwell, a finger23:38
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||cwgpd: the seagates are faster and have better vibration tolerances23:38
maddlerthat's what I *really* love about maemo!!! You never stop learning...23:38
garrettit gets annoying sometimes too23:39
tigertgarrett: yes. a lot of stuff needs to be a bit bigger23:39
maddlertigert: ssh from regular repos in red-pill mode!23:39
tigertbut of course the problme is to fit things then23:39
tigertmaddler: yeah23:39
[mbm]wifi on the n800 is somewhat flaky23:39
garrettand the "Lock touch screen and keys" should keep the backlight off23:39
[mbm]find it works better if you use iwconfig to set the ssid23:39
maddlertigert: there is nothing like that...23:39
tigert[mbm]: might depend on the auth method too23:39
Aleksandyrmaddler: I'm quite sick of "learning" what error messages glib can produce, thanks ;)23:39
garrettI want a mostly suspended mode23:39
tigertI use WEP and dont have any problems23:39
[mbm]garrett: set the dim delay to be the same as the screen poweroff and it works23:40
tigertmaddler: no ssh in repos?23:40
tigertmaddler: add maemo repository23:40
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tzzI just had my N800 reboot while idle, just Evince running with a 200-page book.  Weird.23:40
[mbm]garrett: yeah, I want suspend too23:40
garrett[mbm]: I set the dim delay and stuff to be long23:40
garrettas I use it as an ebook reader23:40
maddlerAleksandyr: hehehe... the price for being an innovator! :D23:40
garrettand it is annoying when I'm reading something and the backlight goes down23:40
garrettor watching a video and the same23:40
tigerttzz: yes. software sometimes has bugs, you know :)23:41
garrettreally, those apps should be able to kick the device into a "do not blank" mode or "do not blank for a very long time"23:41
maddlertigert: I didn't searched for openssh... I simply installed my readymade dropbear client :D23:41
[mbm]tigert: had one network were the wifi wouldn't connect until I set the essid using iwconfig23:41
garrettthere should be different use profiles when plugged in versus battery only23:41
tigert[mbm]: report those as bugs btw23:41
[mbm]you'd see it in the scan, connect, "network failed, try again?"23:41
tigertgarrett: apps can do that23:41
garrettand the screen dimming and transient wifi should be full blast23:41
tigertmaemo mapper does "do not blank" on fullscreen for example23:41
garretttigert: ah, so those apps need to be fixed then (;23:41
[mbm]tigert: and then the scan would refuse to show it23:42
garrettfbreader, specifically23:42
garretttigert: also, I wish the Nokia custom apps were open sourced23:42
[mbm]partly the ap's fault23:42
tigertgarrett: no kidding23:42
[mbm]since the ap wasn't responding to the probe request 100% of the time23:42
garrettthey're not really that good currently, but would benefit from being open sourced23:42
tigertgarrett: the problem is of course,23:42
garrettand nokia should ship some open source apps, like fbreader23:42
[mbm]so it'd respond to a probe and show up on the scna, but then there would be another probe just as it tried to connect that would get ignored23:42
garrettwell, fbreader needs some fixing up23:43
garrettit is really nice23:43
garrettbut the ui and nice defaults would be good23:43
garrettplus auto detection of books -- it doesn't do that, except for the fb2 format it seems23:43
garretta bit annoying23:43
garrettI'll have to write this up on the wiki, I believe *g*23:43
maddlerhmmm... where can I download kismet's debs?23:43
garrettIRC is not necessarily the right place for this sort of stuff23:43
[mbm]found the kismet debs on one of the repositories.. forgot which now23:44
garrett(it can be sometimes, if the right people are in at the right time and happen to do something about it right away, or at least note it somewhere)23:44
Aleksandyrmaddler: the price for being an innovator has so far been -275USD and a bunch of weekends ;)23:45
maddlerinnovation has its price! :D23:46
maddleronly 275USD?23:46
keesjand only week-ends?23:47
Aleksandyr...I compiled JamVM for a bet, and AbiWord on a lark.23:47
Aleksandyr-275USD: the developer discount ;)23:47
Aleksandyrtime I spend at work doesn't count23:47
maddlerah... ok... I thought it was the price you actually paid... :D23:47
[mbm]Aleksandyr: get a better job and write it off as a buisness expense ;)23:48
maddlerI *really* have to thank who proposed me for developer project...23:48
tigertgarrett: what opensource needs always, is a maintainer23:48
tigertand to opensource those things, other issues aside,23:48
tigertit needs someone to look after it23:48
Aleksandyr[mbm]: the better job that I start in a few months is with Microsoft, so I don't think they'll let that one fly ;)23:48
tigertotherwise the code will just rot23:48
tigertgarrett: fbreader has a yahoo group23:49
[mbm]Aleksandyr: wait, microsoft is better? where the hell are you working now? </linux zelot>23:49
tigertthey use as their devel list23:49
tigertsubscribe there and give comments23:49
Aleksandyr[mbm]: Microsoft perks include 24/7 laser tag.23:49
garretttigert: well, is the code just rotting inside Nokia now?23:50
garrettit could be open sourced and handled the same way as is23:50
garrettand then people who care can send patches23:50
garrettit doesn't have to be a community style open source project23:50
[mbm]Aleksandyr: I've visited various large companies, always scares me how much they try to make them look like college campuses23:50
keesjall you need is love23:50
* maddler wonders where kismet is! :D23:51
tigertgarrett: yes :)23:52
tigertgarrett: but yeah. blog about it23:53
garrettyeah, I will23:53
tigertwe need to get you on planet maemo23:53
garrettheh, cool23:53
garrettI need to blog more23:53
garrettI have things to blog about: GNOME, the Wii, the N80023:53
garrettoh, and... geee.... photography stuff23:53
garrettI need to get back into that more23:54
nomistigert: I am wondering - I think I have configured the bora feed, but I don't see a lot of programs in it, esp. no openssh.23:54
tigertnomis: "ssh"?23:54
tigertnomis: red pill mode?23:54
nomistigert: how do I activate that again?23:55
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kulveI installed dropbear without redpill mode and it seems to work ok23:56
nomisfound it.23:57
maddlerkulve: mine?23:57
tigertnomis: got it?23:57
kulvemaddler: dunno. Just from the list I saw :)23:57
nomisdbus debug!23:57
kulveI added all the interesting repos there and then all the interesting apps23:58
kulveboth server and client23:58
tigertmaemo mapper worked nicely too23:58
maddlerkulve: hmmm... I had some problem installing dropbear-client23:58
tigertonce I just added the garage 2.0 repo23:58
tigerteven though it is for mistral, it works ok23:58
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