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| rev | so, anyone got any tips for turning off (= putting to sleep) the N800? what is the equivalent to sliding the metal case on? | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| maddler | timeless: no you have to explicitly ask what you want | 00:02 |
| ||cw | rev: I odn't recall the name of it, but there's a file in /etc/ that you can uncomment a line that enables that in the power button menu | 00:03 |
| maddler | rev not in the same way... | 00:03 |
| ||cw | someone was talking about it a few days ago here | 00:03 |
| rev | ||cw: seriously? egads, joy of joy! | 00:03 |
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| maddler | you can tweak lock/shutdown menu | 00:03 |
| rev | ||cw: why the heck don't they make it so that when you tap the power button, it puts it to sleep, but holding down the button brings up the menu, from which you can choose a 'real' powerdown | 00:04 |
| Veggen | I need a good email client on the N800. but I suspect telomer doesn't support imaps? | 00:04 |
| maddler | telomer | 00:05 |
| maddler | ? | 00:05 |
| Veggen | what's people using for eail? | 00:05 |
| Veggen | email. | 00:05 |
| maddler | mutt | 00:05 |
| maddler | hehe | 00:05 |
| Veggen | oh, can do. | 00:05 |
| * rev uses Squeak's email client, at least on the N800 | 00:05 | |
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| * rev already misses the metal-case design of the 770 | 00:05 | |
| Veggen | but I still think the n800 is better with a gui :) | 00:05 |
| nomis | rev: you're not alone. | 00:05 |
| ||cw | rev: 770 was the other way, tap brings up a menu, hold powers it off completely | 00:06 |
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| rev | ||cw: i know, the N800 is the same as the 770 - *but* at least the 770 at the slide-case, whereas the N800 has *no* way to put it to sleep | 00:06 |
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| rev | ||cw: which seems like a crack-addled oversight | 00:06 |
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| rev | ||cw: it's one thing to question long-standing PDA/tablet conventions, but another to not provide a solution that is at least as functional, if not an improvement | 00:07 |
| ||cw | didn't you just say that a power button tap sleeps it? | 00:07 |
| rev | ||cw: no, i was saying that's what i wish it had | 00:07 |
| nomis | I recently discovered, that the felt pouch (of course) does not prevent the screen from lighting up when something presses on it. | 00:07 |
| ||cw | ah | 00:07 |
| rev | nomis: don't get me wrong, i like the faster CPU, the dual SD slots and beset of all the handy stand thing (my fave!) | 00:07 |
| Tak | rev: you try vba yet? ;-) | 00:08 |
| nomis | which of course is a bummer, since now you need to lock the device via a not-really-uncomplicated button combination. | 00:08 |
| ||cw | that is one thing I like about the 770, I can have it in my back pocket and no worry about it | 00:08 |
| rev | nomis: nor does it hold it well... i've had it fly out of my jacket a few times already, a day old and a scratch | 00:08 |
| ||cw | it's just big enugh that I know it's there so I dont' sit on it | 00:08 |
| rev | Tak: no, actually, i've not! i keep forgetting to ftp it to my 800 ... i'm quite curious | 00:08 |
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| rev | ||cw: indeed, i liked the indudstrial design of the 770 in that sense- i didn't need to carry around an extra case, because that metal case was quite good for protecting it | 00:08 |
| * maddler feels comfortable with the sft poweroff | 00:08 | |
| maddler | soft | 00:09 |
| rev | maddler: ? | 00:09 |
| nomis | maddler: do you lock the device before putting it in the felt-bag? and if not, how do you carry it around? | 00:09 |
| maddler | you can tweak power button menu | 00:09 |
| |tbb|_ | but the bug isnt that good, maddler | 00:09 |
| rev | maddler: what file am i looking for? | 00:09 |
| maddler | nomis: yes I lock it | 00:09 |
| * rev never locked his 770 ... | 00:09 | |
| maddler | rev wait | 00:09 |
| EmilyFromFarAway | Hi, I'm new to Maemo development, and have a hopefully simple question: How do I kill left-over session in the scratchbox? | 00:10 |
| maddler | /etc/systemui/ | 00:10 |
| rev | and i don't want to start having to lock my N800 because the developers didn't do such an important thing right | 00:10 |
| rev | i don't mean to be so hard on them | 00:10 |
| maddler | if IRC | 00:10 |
| rev | it just drives me nuts that the problem wasn't fixed for the second device | 00:10 |
| rev | not only not fixed, but made worse | 00:10 |
| rev | maddler: thanks, i'll look quick | 00:11 |
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| timeless | you could enable automatic key lock ;-) | 00:11 |
| timeless | and please don't plblame developers for things which were probably specified by "user interface designers" | 00:12 |
| rev | timeless: indeed, i will probably have to do that considering the soft case | 00:12 |
| timeless | or whatever their title is | 00:12 |
| nomis | timeless: that is evil if the device is lying on the desktop and you constantly have to unlock it, because you don't use it continuously. | 00:12 |
| Tak | EmilyFromFarAway: leftover? | 00:12 |
| rev | timeless: well, i don't know who is to blame- the developers seemed like the natural choice, but i don't work for nokia and know what decisions were made by what departments | 00:12 |
| nomis | in fact I believe that this makes the N800 less "always on" than the 770. | 00:12 |
| rev | nomis: precisely | 00:12 |
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| nomis | I really would love to spy on the design discussions. | 00:13 |
| timeless | rev: speaking from a position where you aren't, trust me, on average there's a ui engineer to be blamed | 00:13 |
| rev | it all seems like a goofy excuse for just not having a "power" button that works the way every PDA since the Newton has | 00:13 |
| timeless | engineers in general should be blamed only for things that weren't implemented | 00:13 |
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| timeless | and blaming them for not having time to implement things is fairly silly :) | 00:13 |
| EmilyFromFarAway | Well, when I start scratchbox with sbox_ctl start, it complains about "You have 2 other Scratchbox sessions running" | 00:13 |
| rev | timeless: well, someone should give that person a talking to ... maybe buy him or her a palm or pocket pc and say- see how well this works, relatively? | 00:13 |
| nomis | rev: actually I am fine with the way the 770 used the cover to have some kind of power off. | 00:14 |
| timeless | got a more specific version of oneof those devices? | 00:14 |
| nomis | it was nice. Pull off the cover and the device greets you with a lighted up screen. | 00:14 |
| rev | timeless: umm, i'd say anything running palm os or pocket pc - how about a palm V? an axim x51v? | 00:14 |
| timeless | i have an old palm and a w950i that i'm borrowing | 00:14 |
| nomis | Now I have to pull a dead black brick from the felt pouch and do something to get it bright. | 00:14 |
| Tak | EmilyFromFarAway: you could kill any scratchbox shells and/or qemu-arm processes manually | 00:14 |
| rev | timeless: a newton MP2100? they all do it the same way - you hit the power button, and it goes off | 00:14 |
| timeless | i think mine's a palm v, i'd have to find a way to turn it on | 00:15 |
| timeless | rev: so, the key thing about palm is that it's static | 00:15 |
| timeless | it doesn't need to "boot" | 00:15 |
| timeless | since it ran palmos, not linux | 00:15 |
| timeless | as you probably know, the n800/770 do not boot instantly | 00:15 |
| rev | timeless: or, for a more specific and expansive example- the Sony Clie NX70v s a good example, because the UI design vis a vis the power button covers things like music playing, net connection, etc as well | 00:15 |
| Veggen | where's a pointer to latest info for installing scratchbox, btw? | 00:15 |
| rev | timeless: the palm os and WinCW both don't boot instantly... they boot like linux, and take about the same time, though a little less | 00:16 |
| nomis | timeless: the power button does not necessarily have to shut down the device completely. | 00:16 |
| rev | timeless: but the only time you see the PalmOS or WinCE "boot" is when you hit the reset button | 00:16 |
| rev | timeless: incidentally, that is how I use my 770- i don't ever shut down or boot unless I'm changing battery or changing an SD card on which the swap file is located | 00:16 |
| timeless | you shouldn't need to kill it for that swap item | 00:17 |
| rev | timeless: or look at the Zaurus- also linux, but it implements the same behavior as the Palm OS, Newton, and WinCe all do | 00:17 |
| timeless | isn't swap something you can disable w/o rebooting? | 00:17 |
| * timeless hasn't used swap in a while | 00:17 | |
| rev | timeless: well, i didn't know if i did- i had errors the one time i swapped my SD card where there was a swap file | 00:17 |
| timeless | someone explained to me that most things i was using weren't going to swap | 00:17 |
| rev | timeless: mind you, i rarely swap SD cards, it isn't an important point | 00:17 |
| rev | timeless: but my point is, the power-UI of the 770 and N800 have nothing to do with technical issues, it's just a matter of design | 00:18 |
| timeless | i mostly swap cards when i want to trade core files :) | 00:18 |
| rev | timeless: i only reaally swap cards if i want to copy a lot of data onto the card, mp3s or something | 00:18 |
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| timeless | i don't think the people who designed most of this have even seen most of the devices you've mentioned :| | 00:19 |
| timeless | i don't think many of them nmade it to finland | 00:19 |
| timeless | it seems the main thing people have seen is the nokia communicator series | 00:19 |
| rev | timeless: they have at least *one* Newton OS, WinCE or Palm OS model ... I'm sure one of them has a Zaurus they they imported form Japan, just like we have to do in the rest of the world | 00:20 |
| timeless | there are of course some products that people could llook at if they knew to look at and thought they should | 00:20 |
| rev | timeless: i've never used a nokia communicator, but i imagine that it has a more sensible power- UI than the 770 and N800 do- the Psions I've seen did | 00:20 |
| * timeless chuckles | 00:20 | |
| timeless | i don't think i've met a single nokia product w/ a sensible power ui | 00:20 |
| timeless | to turn off a nokia device, you pull the battery | 00:20 |
| rev | timeless: not on the one nokia phone i had | 00:21 |
| timeless | you sure? | 00:21 |
| rev | timeless: you just held the power button down and it powered off | 00:21 |
| rev | timeless: but it was a cell phone, you didn't put it to sleep like you do a PDA/tablet | 00:21 |
| timeless | well on communicators, that only shuts off the cell part of the phone | 00:21 |
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| timeless | of course your phone was still keeping time and possibly other things | 00:21 |
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| timeless | i haven't used a real old nokia phone since 2003 and never really cared if turning it off really turned it off, besides, why would anyone turn their phone off? :) | 00:22 |
| rev | timeless: like i said, i didn't hae a communicator, this is with a Nokia 6800-series | 00:22 |
| ||cw | timeless: and rtc and a small backup batter keep time when the phone is off | 00:22 |
| rev | timeless: and when it, at least that model, was off it was all the way off | 00:22 |
| Tak | timeless: au contrair, why would anyone turn their phone *on* ? | 00:22 |
| timeless | tak: to dial 1-800-555-TELL :) | 00:23 |
| rev | timeless: but like you say, i didn't have reason to turn it off often- generally only if it was realy low on battery, and i needed to save that battery for later for a call or something | 00:23 |
| * timeless nods | 00:23 | |
| Robot101 | anyone got any ideas how to debug why maemo-af-desktop is crashing? | 00:23 |
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| timeless | robot101: is this in scratchbhox? | 00:24 |
| Robot101 | no, on my device | 00:24 |
| timeless | if not, make /media/mmc1/core-dumps | 00:24 |
| timeless | you'll get a core in that directory (maybe a couple) | 00:24 |
| nomis | Robot101: are you using some non-standard applets? | 00:24 |
| timeless | but yeah, non standard applets are a good way to cause crashes | 00:24 |
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| timeless | gpe and one of the others | 00:24 |
| timeless | mweather? | 00:24 |
| Robot101 | nomis: I installed mediastreamer and osso-xterm yesterday, then I found my device in a reboot loop in the evening | 00:25 |
| timeless | is the reboot loop before or after the desktop appears? | 00:25 |
| timeless | the normal reboot loop is solved by removing the battery | 00:25 |
| Robot101 | after the connecting hands, then the screen goes white, then it starts booting | 00:25 |
| timeless | the sucky reboot loops involve switching to -no-lifeguard-reset or something using the linux flasher | 00:25 |
| Robot101 | it's definitely maemo-af-desktop crashing | 00:25 |
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| timeless | anyway, i presume you have linux | 00:26 |
| timeless | things to do: | 00:26 |
| timeless | 1. have that directory | 00:26 |
| timeless | 2. hrm, not sure if you can do 2 | 00:26 |
| timeless | if you can get the device to boot there's a /proc/bootreason or something | 00:26 |
| timeless | but i'm not sure if you can get to that in a useful manner | 00:26 |
| Robot101 | well, I've got a serial console and turned off lifeguard resets | 00:27 |
| timeless | the flasher can let you boot from usb or mmc | 00:27 |
| timeless | and you should be able to find an image for booting from mmc (or instructions to make one) | 00:27 |
| timeless | what does the serial console say? | 00:27 |
| * timeless really wants to figure out how to use apt-get to get all packages from a repository :( | 00:28 | |
| timeless | maybe i should just use wget -mirror ? :) | 00:28 |
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| rev | ot wpi;dm | 00:28 |
| rev | er | 00:28 |
| rev | it wouldn't be too hard | 00:28 |
| rev | i mean, i assume there's an apt command that lists all the packages in the repository | 00:29 |
| rev | pipe that to a file | 00:29 |
| Tak | apt-get --download-only install '*' ? | 00:29 |
| rev | then foreach apt-get $line that | 00:29 |
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| sp3000 | that's .* | 00:29 |
| Tak | ah, is it regex? | 00:30 |
| timeless | doesn't worko very well | 00:30 |
| timeless | repository has conflicts | 00:30 |
| hap | Veggen: i use gmail for email | 00:30 |
| sp3000 | heh | 00:30 |
| hap | aah wait, it keeps crashing on my N800 | 00:30 |
| timeless | you want to use gmail for email | 00:30 |
| timeless | personally i'd suggest https://mail.google.com/mail/h/ | 00:30 |
| sp3000 | if you're downloading-only, you should be able to tell it to not care | 00:30 |
| hap | so I used it once, now it doesn't work anymore. | 00:31 |
| timeless | hap: have you tried h/ ? | 00:31 |
| Robot101 | Starting clipboard-manager | 00:31 |
| Robot101 | DSME: process '/usr/bin/maemo_af_desktop ' with pid 985 exited with signal: 4 | 00:31 |
| Robot101 | DSME: '/usr/bin/maemo_af_desktop ' exited with RESET policy -> reset | 00:31 |
| Robot101 | Starting Interaction Server: Starting media-server | 00:31 |
| hap | timeless: i did, it did work at the beginning, after no more. I didn't try to go to the HTML page | 00:31 |
| rev | timeless: what is /h/ ? | 00:31 |
| timeless | html | 00:31 |
| timeless | i.e. not rich | 00:31 |
| * rev nods | 00:31 | |
| timeless | i find that i'm much happier w/ it | 00:32 |
| timeless | ther'es no real need or benefit to rich on the 770 or n800 | 00:32 |
| timeless | and i'm a heavy gmail user | 00:32 |
| Veggen | timeless: but what if you don't want to use gmail? Some of us still prefer to run our own email-server :) | 00:32 |
| timeless | ask anyone who knows me | 00:32 |
| timeless | you're crazy | 00:32 |
| sp3000 | oh, it doesn't have an option for that. bah | 00:32 |
| tzz | timeless: not everyone wants Google to store their mail. | 00:33 |
| timeless | tzz: not everyone is sane | 00:33 |
| tzz | timeless: if you are a Google competitor for example... | 00:33 |
| timeless | tzz: put another way, which would you rather designing your UI: google or nokia | 00:33 |
| timeless | i can tell you my answer in a heartbeat | 00:33 |
| timeless | and i hope my employer won't object | 00:34 |
| rev | haha | 00:34 |
| svu | Is skyhusker's xchat compatible with n800? I am getting error trying to install ... | 00:34 |
| lle2 | long heartbeat.. | 00:34 |
| timeless | sp3000: my favorite is this; | 00:34 |
| timeless | libgwobex-dev: Depends: pkg-config but it is not installable | 00:34 |
| valtsu | oh but there is so much eye candy and so few bogomips in nokia products... | 00:35 |
| tzz | timeless: um, wtf does Nokia have to do with it? Google Mail is OK if you want to depend on Google and trust them. I don't, for instance. | 00:35 |
| timeless | tzz: put another way | 00:35 |
| sp3000 | it's bound to complain about installing everything, thre's bound to be smoe conflicts | 00:35 |
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| valtsu | timeless: maemo != nokia ui design | 00:35 |
| timeless | here are three choices for email clients: | 00:35 |
| timeless | thunderbird(seamonkey), nokia mail, gmail | 00:35 |
| sp3000 | too bad it doesn't understand download-only means download-only | 00:35 |
| timeless | which would you trust w/ your mailbox? | 00:36 |
| valtsu | pine? | 00:36 |
| lle2 | mutt? | 00:36 |
| timeless | for reference, thunderbird/seamonkey have historically deleted inboxes | 00:36 |
| timeless | and not even the nokia devs dogfood their mail client | 00:36 |
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| timeless | although there are ui engineers who use it (much to my surprise) | 00:36 |
| timeless | as for pine/mutt, i hope you're using screen :) | 00:37 |
| myren_ | lol | 00:37 |
| myren_ | whoo dogfood | 00:37 |
| timeless | and no, i'm not opposed to pine/mutt | 00:37 |
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| timeless | there were a couple of months i was using less | 00:37 |
| timeless | it worked quite well for my needs | 00:37 |
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| timeless | sp3000: so.. | 00:37 |
| timeless | clearly i can't use apt-get to get things | 00:38 |
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| timeless | unless i cheat | 00:38 |
| timeless | can i lie about having packages? | 00:38 |
| timeless | x-build: Depends: autoconf but it is not installable | 00:38 |
| timeless | Depends: automake1.8 but it is not installable | 00:38 |
| timeless | Depends: cdbs but it is not installable | 00:38 |
| timeless | Depends: debhelper (>= 4.1.88) but it is not installable | 00:38 |
| timeless | Depends: pkg-config but it is not installable | 00:38 |
| timeless | Depends: libtool but it is not installable | 00:38 |
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| timeless | i don't have any of those :) | 00:38 |
| valtsu | just use mistral + apt pinning | 00:38 |
| timeless | sorry, i can't | 00:39 |
| timeless | this isn't really debian | 00:39 |
| timeless | it's a very *empty* sandbox | 00:39 |
| lle2 | bootstrapping a debian system is soooo '05 | 00:39 |
| timeless | i've actually done it a couple of times | 00:40 |
| timeless | i had to do it at least once to get this system so i could do what i'm doing now | 00:40 |
| valtsu | crokodile2 kicks ass for that | 00:40 |
| Robot101 | hm | 00:40 |
| Robot101 | I wish we had strace | 00:40 |
| * timeless has strace | 00:41 | |
| timeless | and truss for that matter | 00:41 |
| Robot101 | hang on a second... | 00:41 |
| Robot101 | maemo_af_desktop started, when I started it manually | 00:41 |
| Robot101 | even though it exited with signal 4 when I booted | 00:41 |
| timeless | did you make the core-dumps directory? | 00:41 |
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| timeless | google can't find crokodile2 | 00:41 |
| Robot101 | yeah, I just have the traditional Xomap at shutdown coredump | 00:41 |
| timeless | this is 2007 or 2007.0.1? | 00:42 |
| tzz | timeless: heh, I'm not going to list all the kinds of mail clients out there. Your list is a very tiny subset though. From Gnus to OWA, there's tremendous variety. Oh, and there's no "mailbox" with Maildirs and with IMAP. | 00:42 |
| Robot101 | how can I tell? it has internet call invitation so I think that makes it the point release...? | 00:42 |
| timeless | tzz: i can't open my maildir mailbox over imap | 00:43 |
| hauptmech | Random question: is nokia abandoning the 770 hardware? | 00:43 |
| tzz | it's actually pretty hard to trash an IMAP folder unless you really try. | 00:43 |
| timeless | the mail server dies | 00:43 |
| kaatis | timeless, those are provided by build tools from scratchbox. maemo installer script should take care of those | 00:43 |
| timeless | kaatis: scratchbox? funny | 00:43 |
| timeless | this isn't | 00:43 |
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| tzz | timeless: of course you can't open it over IMAP, it's a directory. Run Courier IMAP or Dovecot. | 00:43 |
| Robot101 | timeless: how do I tell what release I have? | 00:44 |
| timeless | tzz: by open, i mean courier | 00:44 |
| timeless | robot101: check the bottom of the core file | 00:44 |
| timeless | it should have the number 2007 in it i think | 00:44 |
| lle2 | timeless: why do you use apt to get the stuff? | 00:45 |
| tzz | timeless: OK, so configure it. | 00:45 |
| timeless | lle2: because it's moderately better than | 00:45 |
| Robot101 | timeless: about in control panel says 2.2005.51-6 | 00:45 |
| lle2 | timeless: why not just download them, extract with dpkg and configure later? | 00:45 |
| timeless | tzz: it crashes because it runs out of memory | 00:45 |
| lle2 | timeless: that's what everybody else does | 00:45 |
| timeless | there are probably about a million messages in inbox | 00:45 |
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| timeless | lle2: well, i did say i was considering wget -mirror | 00:46 |
| timeless | robot101: 2005? | 00:46 |
| Robot101 | er, 2006 | 00:46 |
| Robot101 | :D | 00:46 |
| tzz | timeless: out of memory? Can you explain a little more? | 00:46 |
| lle2 | timeless: I've not followed your adventure too closely, I just fail to understand what you hope to gain by torturing yourself | 00:46 |
| timeless | tzz: imap protocol says the first thing you do is get the inbox list | 00:47 |
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| timeless | as soon as the client finishes that it makes one more question | 00:47 |
| timeless | and the server replies w/ an error out of memory | 00:47 |
| timeless | because the process of indexing all the tiny messages has blown its little mind | 00:47 |
| tzz | timeless: how much memory does it have? | 00:47 |
| timeless | presumably it can have 2g if it wants | 00:48 |
| timeless | but if you consider that there are probably 1-2million messages | 00:48 |
| timeless | and each message needs some space for say a file path and a uid | 00:48 |
| tzz | timeless: heh, come on, you don't have 1-2 million messages in your Maildir | 00:48 |
| timeless | it's kinda in risky ground :) | 00:48 |
| timeless | please hold | 00:48 |
| timeless | [timeless@viper Maildir]$ find new -type f|wc -l | 00:49 |
| timeless | 26473 | 00:49 |
| timeless | that's since the last time i tried to open inbox | 00:49 |
| timeless | [timeless@viper Maildir]$ find cur -type f|wc -l | 00:49 |
| timeless | 592968 | 00:49 |
| timeless | you're right, i only have over half a million | 00:50 |
| timeless | sorry :) | 00:50 |
| ||cw | o_O | 00:50 |
| tzz | dude, if you're putting 500K messages in a single directory, you should definitely have Google run mail for you. | 00:50 |
| ||cw | time it archive/delete | 00:50 |
| kaatis | timeless, for some reason you don't want to use scratchbox? ok. just take the build tools from debian stable | 00:50 |
| timeless | ||cw: i don't use delete | 00:50 |
| timeless | tzz: messages are on average 5-10k, not 500k | 00:50 |
| ||cw | me neither, but i use gmail | 00:50 |
| timeless | and yes, gmail is definitely the right answer | 00:51 |
| ||cw | and smap does get dleteed after 30 days | 00:51 |
| ||cw | I still get between 15-20k spams a month | 00:51 |
| timeless | [timeless@viper Maildir]$ du -s -h * | 00:51 |
| timeless | 1.1M courierimapkeywords | 00:51 |
| timeless | 4.0K courierimapsubscribed | 00:51 |
| timeless | 19M courierimapuiddb | 00:51 |
| kaatis | ok maybe you've got the biggest inbox | 00:51 |
| timeless | You are currently using 2696 MB (96%) of your 2811 MB. | 00:51 |
| timeless | ^ that's gmail :) | 00:52 |
| timeless | 3.1G cur | 00:52 |
| maddler | omg | 00:52 |
| timeless | 182M new | 00:52 |
| timeless | 4.0K tmp | 00:52 |
| timeless | [timeless@viper Maildir]$ | 00:52 |
| ||cw | you are a mad man | 00:52 |
| timeless | maildir was a big mistake | 00:52 |
| ||cw | better than mbox | 00:52 |
| timeless | not for this mailbox | 00:53 |
| timeless | it's better if your messages are big and few | 00:53 |
| tzz | timeless: I don't even know where to start with what you're doing wrong... | 00:53 |
| ||cw | maybe dbmail would be a way to go | 00:53 |
| timeless | it's a bad idea if you have practically millions of tiny messages | 00:53 |
| ||cw | it's generaly slower, but for this much, it might just hold up | 00:53 |
| * timeless notes that gmail is actually not using as much space as viper | 00:53 | |
| timeless | interesting | 00:53 |
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| ||cw | sql server have no issues with millions of rows after all | 00:53 |
| timeless | as long as the sql server and code to use it aren't stupid, yeah | 00:54 |
| timeless | i'm not sure i'd want to use outlook for this | 00:54 |
| timeless | i can of course test outlook by giving it read pop access to gmail | 00:54 |
| timeless | but i'm not really ready to kill outlook | 00:54 |
| ||cw | hehe,m outlook starts to choke at couple k messages | 00:54 |
| timeless | and yes, i can kill just about anything | 00:55 |
| Tak | and anything can kill outlook | 00:55 |
| Tak | it's a good match | 00:55 |
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| timeless | i killed the samsung q1 | 00:55 |
| ||cw | point t-bird at it | 00:55 |
| timeless | ||cw: again, i've already had seamonkey die | 00:55 |
| timeless | but it turned out that the problem was server side | 00:55 |
| timeless | and, my mailbox is actually improtnat | 00:56 |
| timeless | s/protna/portan/ | 00:56 |
| tzz | timeless: anyhow, you may want to look at Dovecot, it's very fast and designed to run in tight memory space | 00:56 |
| timeless | so i don't really want to feed it to something i don't trust | 00:56 |
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| timeless | tzz: the next time i talk to viper's admin, i might ask | 00:56 |
| ||cw | and dovecot and use your maildir | 00:56 |
| ||cw | can use^ | 00:56 |
| timeless | note: i don't control viper | 00:56 |
| timeless | i'm just a guest with a very big inbox | 00:57 |
| timeless | course, viper isn't the worst computer i've used | 00:57 |
| Robot101 | timeless: how can I get strace? | 00:57 |
| timeless | i think i'm using something like 4/5 of one computer | 00:57 |
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| * timeless tries to remember if robot101 is using 770 | 00:58 | |
| timeless | ok, that's n800 | 00:59 |
| timeless | sr1 i believe | 00:59 |
| Robot101 | it's an N800, yeah | 01:00 |
| Robot101 | and I think you're right it's the 1st point release. the 0th release didn't have video call invites | 01:00 |
| timeless | i think most people just build strace in scratchbox | 01:00 |
| timeless | personally, i just install it from a repository | 01:01 |
| timeless | but, i asked for it to be there, :| | 01:01 |
| tzz | timeless: so have you considered breaking up your 500K messages into folders? Just curious. I have at least 5 GB of mail, over a million messages, but no folder is over 100K messages. | 01:01 |
| timeless | tzz: well, err | 01:01 |
| Robot101 | timeless: I should investigate these repositories... :) | 01:01 |
| timeless | about 5 years ago i organized things by age of origin | 01:01 |
| tzz | timeless: I'm intrigued by your use case :) | 01:01 |
| timeless | at a certain point it was too time consuming | 01:01 |
| timeless | basically, i watched at the time a large portion of bugmail from bugzilla.mozilla.org | 01:02 |
| timeless | when i started, each range of bugs 0..9,999; 10,000..19,999 was moved into a folder tree | 01:02 |
| timeless | based on whether the bug was alive, resolved, verified | 01:02 |
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| timeless | that kinda worked until bugzilla reached 100,000 | 01:03 |
| timeless | at which point the time required to do the magical moving was actually nearly prohibitive | 01:03 |
| timeless | i think i still did it for a while past that | 01:03 |
| timeless | probably nearly to bug 200,000 | 01:03 |
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| timeless | by the time april 2004 came around, i got a gmail account, knowing immediately what i intended to do w/ it | 01:03 |
| tzz | timeless: I use filters ("split rules" in Gnus) to break up my mail into folders automatically. The folder is created if it doesn't exist and you could make it based on the bug number / 100 for example, so INBOX.bugs.100 could be 100 through 199. | 01:04 |
| timeless | oh, one key | 01:04 |
| timeless | i don't trust procmail | 01:04 |
| timeless | or rather, i don't trust myself w/ procmail | 01:04 |
| timeless | my mail is more improtant to me than my ability to conveniently do things w/ it | 01:04 |
| timeless | the risk of losing mail by writing a broken filter is not a risk i was willing to take | 01:05 |
| timeless | s/prot/port/ | 01:05 |
| timeless | hrm, bug 200,000 is from 2003 | 01:05 |
| tzz | timeless: er, you realize procmail will not actually drop your mail, right? | 01:05 |
| timeless | i believe there was a time when an incorrect filter would result in the mail being entirely lost | 01:05 |
| timeless | note that my experience w/ procmail dates to 2001 | 01:06 |
| tzz | timeless: it's been a while since that. You have to actively try these days to lose mail. Anyhow, I'm really getting off topic, apologies to everyone on the channel. | 01:06 |
| timeless | anyway, at a certain point i wasn't able to open my inbox at all, we tried converting to mbox and other things | 01:06 |
| timeless | i think that happened middle 2003 | 01:06 |
| timeless | at that point, i switched to screen+less | 01:07 |
| myren_ | i've never found loosing mail to be problematic | 01:07 |
| myren_ | CEO's laptop just died. he lost lost a week of mail. | 01:07 |
| timeless | it worked well enough, since i was using it mostly to watch bug status | 01:07 |
| timeless | and less could easily mark where i was and then search backwords to find what i needed | 01:07 |
| timeless | less probably held me over until i got gmail in april :) | 01:08 |
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| timeless | anyway, wget -mirror is the recommendation for me? | 01:08 |
| timeless | http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2005-October/001537.html | 01:09 |
| timeless | should be enough information about strace | 01:09 |
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| timeless | note that eero knows what he's talking about | 01:09 |
| timeless | hrm | 01:10 |
| timeless | no, -mirror on this wouldn't be remotely useful | 01:10 |
| Sulis | this may be a silly question to ask, but is it worth getting an N800 over a 770 internet tablet? | 01:10 |
| timeless | since the information is just a pointer to the pool | 01:10 |
| timeless | sulis: do you want sdcard support? | 01:10 |
| timeless | do you want more ram? | 01:10 |
| timeless | do you want future support from nokia? | 01:11 |
| * timeless has no idea how long nokia plans to support the 770 | 01:11 | |
| Sulis | right, i see what you mean | 01:11 |
| timeless | that's i think my whole list of pros | 01:11 |
| timeless | not on the list is "do you want a 1/4 vga camera" | 01:11 |
| timeless | personally, i'm very happy w/ my 770, and i'll be taking it w/ me to fosdem in a few weeks | 01:12 |
| lle2 | timeless: I've no idea what you're hoping to accomplish with the .debs. | 01:12 |
| timeless | although, i'll probably also take an n800 w/ me | 01:12 |
| Sulis | cos i'm really not bothered about having a camera in it | 01:12 |
| timeless | lle2: i need to feed binaries to gdb | 01:12 |
| lle2 | timeless: to gdb? | 01:12 |
| timeless | beyond that, i don't have a use for the debs | 01:12 |
| timeless | lle2: yes | 01:13 |
| timeless | i have core dumps | 01:13 |
| lle2 | timeless: haha. | 01:13 |
| * timeless wrote a patch to get gdb to build a couple of hours ago | 01:13 | |
| timeless | bring: cores, gdb, binaries, symbols, result: stack trace | 01:13 |
| timeless | already have: cross reference (using apt-get and some other magic) | 01:14 |
| timeless | result: complain to someone (probably provide patch) | 01:14 |
| lle2 | from what you're getting the cores from? | 01:14 |
| timeless | an n800 | 01:14 |
| timeless | or a user w/ an n800 | 01:14 |
| timeless | "send me your cores" | 01:14 |
| lle2 | yeah, but what's triggering them? | 01:14 |
| timeless | i'll find someone to take them | 01:15 |
| * timeless shrugs | 01:15 | |
| timeless | annoying users mostly | 01:15 |
| lle2 | oh, just a general purpose core dump sorting station? ;) | 01:15 |
| timeless | and i'd rather read their stack traces than try to follow their steps to reproduce | 01:15 |
| timeless | something like that | 01:15 |
| timeless | although there's already one of those | 01:15 |
| lle2 | shouldn't you take just the FIASCO images and extract the binaries from there? | 01:16 |
| timeless | maybe | 01:16 |
| lle2 | hmm, the symbols | 01:16 |
| * timeless wonders how portable the flasher code is | 01:17 | |
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| koos | How do I determine at runtime if my app runs on bora or mistral? | 01:44 |
| timeless | what happens when someone mixes bora+mistral? :) | 01:44 |
| timeless | normally you should be checking based on actual features or libraries not theoretical classes that users violate | 01:44 |
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| Robot101 | koos: yeah, what do you actually need to change on either? | 01:45 |
| koos | Robot101: osso-media-server dbus interface is slightly different | 01:46 |
| koos | (mistral get x/y/w/h and bora wid for video output area) | 01:46 |
| koos | other than that, it works out of the box :-) | 01:47 |
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| Robot101 | hmm | 01:48 |
| Robot101 | can you catch the error at runtime and change your behaviour? | 01:49 |
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| koos | Robot101: not realy, only the mm-server restarts when doing it wrongly | 01:49 |
| Robot101 | hahaha | 01:50 |
| Robot101 | awesome :P | 01:50 |
| koos | Oh yeah, mistal expect four int32 and bora four uint32 | 01:50 |
| Robot101 | they obviously don't have stream engine's robust X error handling code :) | 01:50 |
| Sulis | i saw a post on engadet that said it *may* be possible to have the n800 access sdhd cards, is there any truth to that or is it just suposition? | 01:50 |
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| koos | Robot101: now w/ Xv, thus the wid thing, is much better anyhow, no video 'damage' on the screen | 01:51 |
| Robot101 | koos: yeah, I know. the xsp stuff was a bizzaro hack. :) | 01:52 |
| koos | Hmm, maybe I can check for Xv support .. | 01:54 |
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| tolgam | Sulis: a patch for the kernel exists but it doesn't seem to be available for n800's kernel yet | 02:10 |
| nomis | hmm. | 02:10 |
| Sulis | ahh, but i expect it will be very much in demand, so will probably be available eventually | 02:10 |
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| neostrider | hello fellows | 02:11 |
| nomis | are the display/volume applets for the af-desktop open source? | 02:11 |
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| nomis | I wonder how they invoke the control panel applets. Probably dbus, but I don't see suspicious strings in the .so-files. | 02:13 |
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| timeless | how much do you care about how control panel works? | 02:20 |
| * timeless considers filing a bug | 02:20 | |
| timeless | control panel can't spell "its" correctly | 02:21 |
| nomis | timeless: not much. I just want to know what call (libosso or dbus) to do to invoke a specific control panel applet. | 02:21 |
| nomis | i.e. I want to be able to bring the display configuration up. | 02:21 |
| nomis | even a dbus-send commandline would probably help me. | 02:21 |
| timeless | gimme a few seconds | 02:22 |
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| timeless | dlopen | 02:22 |
| timeless | "execute" | 02:22 |
| nomis | "exec | 02:23 |
| nomis | eh. | 02:23 |
| nomis | what do you mean? | 02:23 |
| timeless | execute is the name of the function that's called | 02:24 |
| timeless | typedef osso_return_t (hcp_plugin_exec_f) ( | 02:24 |
| timeless | osso_context_t * osso, | 02:24 |
| timeless | gpointer data, | 02:25 |
| timeless | gboolean user_activated); | 02:25 |
| timeless | that's "execute" | 02:25 |
| timeless | you're expected to implement two functions | 02:25 |
| timeless | the other is | 02:25 |
| timeless | typedef osso_return_t (hcp_plugin_save_state_f) ( | 02:25 |
| nomis | oh wait. | 02:25 |
| timeless | osso_context_t * osso, | 02:25 |
| timeless | gpointer data); | 02:25 |
| timeless | that's | 02:25 |
| timeless | "save_state" | 02:25 |
| nomis | I don't want to implement a control applet. Thats more or less documented. | 02:25 |
| timeless | oh, you want to ask control panel to open something? | 02:26 |
| nomis | yeah. | 02:26 |
| nomis | there definitely is dbus involved, but it might be wrapped in libosso. | 02:26 |
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| timeless | one second | 02:27 |
| timeless | service: "com.nokia.controlpanel" | 02:27 |
| timeless | path: "/com/nokia/controlpanel/rpc" | 02:27 |
| timeless | interface: "com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc" | 02:28 |
| timeless | verb: "run_applet" | 02:28 |
| timeless | alternate verb: "save_state_applet" | 02:28 |
| timeless | silly verb: "top_application" | 02:28 |
| timeless | paranoid verb: "is_applet_running" | 02:28 |
| timeless | is that sufficient? | 02:28 |
| nomis | it definitely helps, I guess I need "run_applet". Can you figure out the name of the display applet? | 02:29 |
| timeless | oh, sure :) | 02:29 |
| timeless | i can read | 02:29 |
| * timeless finished preschool in the states | 02:30 | |
| * timeless sighs | 02:30 | |
| * timeless hates ln -s . foo | 02:30 | |
| nomis | timeless: is the above output from dbus-monitor? | 02:31 |
| nomis | timeless: or where do you get that information from? | 02:31 |
| * nomis is dbus newbie | 02:31 | |
| timeless | "Display" | 02:32 |
| * timeless doesn't really speak dbus | 02:32 | |
| timeless | i'm just reading things | 02:32 |
| nomis | timeless: where? | 02:32 |
| timeless | i'm sure i could use strings if i needed to | 02:32 |
| timeless | my desktop computer :) | 02:32 |
| nomis | I guess "my monitor" would have been as helpful :) | 02:34 |
| timeless | well, i'm reading from my laptop | 02:34 |
| nomis | timeless: and what commands do you issue to bring the relevant information on the monitor for you to read? | 02:35 |
| Sulis | hehe | 02:36 |
| timeless | something like http://swift/release/search?string= or http://swift/release/find?string= or http://swift/release/source/ | 02:36 |
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| timeless | kinda depends, but swift is just an lxr/mxr | 02:36 |
| timeless | so it sorta just gives me answers as long as i can ask moderately reasonable questions | 02:37 |
| nomis | ah, so you have access to the Nokia internal SCM? | 02:38 |
| timeless | oh well | 02:38 |
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| timeless | i'm sure you could tap dbus or use gdb to find this stuff out if you were me and desperate | 02:39 |
| * timeless goes back to trying to figure out how to use apt or wget or something | 02:39 | |
| timeless | suggestions welcome :) | 02:39 |
| * timeless grumbles | 02:39 | |
| timeless | how can this stupid conversation (gmail thread) have 10 new messages? | 02:40 |
| timeless | in the last 30mins! | 02:40 |
| nomis | timeless: I am glad to know that I did not miss anything obvious on teh interweb. | 02:40 |
| timeless | oh, i'm not saying that | 02:41 |
| timeless | i just didn't need to look :) | 02:41 |
| timeless | i did read the control panel sdk stuff (which is public) a while ago on a flight to LHR | 02:41 |
| timeless | it probably mentioned some dbus bits | 02:41 |
| timeless | http://dkothari.blogspot.com/2005/11/maemo-streamripper-control-panel.html would probably have been worth reading | 02:42 |
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| * timeless tries to remember which is which | 02:44 | |
| timeless | are you sure it isn't public? | 02:45 |
| timeless | it's really hard to keep track of these things | 02:45 |
| timeless | the license certainly doesn't seem to say it couldn't be public | 02:46 |
| timeless | http://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-cp-applist.c | 02:46 |
| timeless | that's not necessarily the right file | 02:46 |
| timeless | but it's the right directory | 02:46 |
| timeless | and its siblings should be present | 02:47 |
| timeless | so, i think you shhould retract your statement about not missing something obvious on the interweb | 02:47 |
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| jaebird | Trying to connect the N800 to my bluetooth gprs, *99# is not working with my phone it likes *99***1#, but my phone sees *99* coming from the N800 | 02:47 |
| timeless | the only big advantage i have is that my cross reference actually works | 02:47 |
| timeless | that advantage should change | 02:47 |
| timeless | i'm probably going to take over the one you see there | 02:47 |
| jaebird | if I send **9***1# the whole string goes to the phone...but of course that doesn't work :) | 02:48 |
| Andy80 | Hi | 02:48 |
| timeless | http://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-control-panel-main.c | 02:48 |
| jaebird | is the N800 automatically cropping when it sees *99 | 02:48 |
| timeless | is where i started (essentially) | 02:48 |
| timeless | http://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-control-panel-main.h#125 | 02:48 |
| timeless | is what you wanted to read | 02:49 |
| timeless | it's a perfectly public piece of code | 02:49 |
| timeless | anyway, i'm not going to give a tutorial on how to use the lxr that's running on maemo.org, since i'll hopefully replace it relatively shortly | 02:49 |
| * timeless needs to finish fixing a few other things | 02:49 | |
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| timeless | as for "Display", i think that one we'll have to accept that i cheated | 02:50 |
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| nomis | timeless: well, at least I get a kind of reasonable error message now :) | 02:51 |
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| timeless | i should check though | 02:52 |
| * timeless wonders | 02:52 | |
| timeless | http://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel-l10n/po/en_GB.po#103 | 02:52 |
| timeless | it's theoretically possible that the english names are actually always right | 02:52 |
| timeless | darn, it isn't :( | 02:54 |
| nomis | "Method "run_applet" with signature "sb" on interface "com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc" doesn't exist. | 02:54 |
| timeless | hrm | 02:55 |
| timeless | that's odd | 02:55 |
| * timeless isn't actually sure "Display" is used | 02:55 | |
| * timeless wonders if it's hidden behind a macro | 02:55 | |
| nomis | well, the "Display" would be the first argument, but it seems that the function cannot be found. | 02:56 |
| nomis | and the signature should be "sb" from reading hcp_rpc_handler() | 02:56 |
| timeless | i'm actually not sure about the Display bit | 02:57 |
| nomis | timeless: but that is not what causes the above error. Or is the error message just wrong? | 02:57 |
| * timeless shrugs | 02:58 | |
| timeless | one problem at a time? | 02:58 |
| nomis | the hcp_rpc_handler() should just silently do nothing if the argument is wrong. | 02:58 |
| timeless | anyway, the control panel is open source | 02:58 |
| timeless | so youc an read it :) | 02:58 |
| nomis | ok :) | 02:58 |
| timeless | and i found what was probably someone else's control panel applet and gave you a url for it a long time ago | 02:59 |
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| timeless | so you really shouldn't need to ask me for anything :) | 02:59 |
| timeless | my guess is it's actually the .so name or something | 02:59 |
| timeless | i suppose i could trace through some more of the code | 02:59 |
| timeless | there's no sign of registration anywhere | 03:00 |
| nomis | the applets live in a hash table, I guess that the plugin name is used as the key. | 03:01 |
| nomis | which would be "display" or something. | 03:02 |
| timeless | there's a gconf schema | 03:03 |
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| nomis | ok, the hash table apparently gets filled from hcp_al_read_desktop_entries(), which uses an entry of the .desktop-Keyfile as the name. | 03:05 |
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| timeless | desktop keys? | 03:06 |
| timeless | i think in general it's the Name= field from .desktop files | 03:07 |
| timeless | try disp_ap_application_title | 03:08 |
| timeless | which you should see in cpdisplay.desktop | 03:08 |
| timeless | kinda strange name, but hey | 03:08 |
| * timeless wonders what a name is | 03:08 | |
| timeless | maybe that's only what is shown to the user | 03:09 |
| nomis | well, the error stays the same, it cannot find the method. | 03:09 |
| nomis | dbus-send --session --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.controlpanel /com/nokia/controlpanel/rpc com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc.run_applet string:disp_ap_application_title boolean:true | 03:10 |
| nomis | this gives the error about the not existing method run_applet | 03:11 |
| timeless | try passing a number like 2 instead? :) | 03:12 |
| nomis | instead of the string: ? | 03:12 |
| timeless | yeah | 03:12 |
| nomis | the code in hcp_rpc_handler() checks for type == DBUS_TYPE_STRING (and a second for DBUS_TYPE_BOOLEAN) | 03:14 |
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| nomis | (error message is the same, except for the different signature) | 03:14 |
| timeless | oh, it's an rpc_t thingy | 03:14 |
| timeless | sorry | 03:15 |
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| * timeless really doesn't speak dbus | 03:15 | |
| SyntaxNinja | does anyone know whether it's pretty common for the N800 to get stuck in bootloops? I've seen some stuff on the mailng list or something | 03:15 |
| SyntaxNinja | but I'm wondering if I should return it for new hardware, with the hope that it's buggy hardware, or if I should stiop installing gpe-todo | 03:15 |
| Sulis | :S is it always this difficult to code for maemo things? i was thinking it would be a good chance to refresh my programming...but now i don't know | 03:15 |
| timeless | SyntaxNinja: it's easy to get a boot loop | 03:16 |
| timeless | don't install buggy third party apps | 03:16 |
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| SyntaxNinja | timeless: any solution besides re-flashing? | 03:16 |
| timeless | don't install buggy apps :) | 03:16 |
| timeless | but seriously, sometimes you can solve it by removing the battery | 03:16 |
| SyntaxNinja | I mean after the fact ;) | 03:16 |
| timeless | or disabling the life guard | 03:16 |
| SyntaxNinja | I disabled the life guard, I think. | 03:16 |
| timeless | it depends though | 03:16 |
| timeless | if you installed something that crashes the desktop | 03:17 |
| SyntaxNinja | is the gpe suite considered too buggy to install? | 03:17 |
| timeless | by me? yes | 03:17 |
| SyntaxNinja | ah OK :( | 03:17 |
| timeless | it was the reason we're hoping to change the desktop to not be full life guarded | 03:17 |
| timeless | that and mweather | 03:17 |
| timeless | it was one of the fastest crashes i got | 03:17 |
| SyntaxNinja | that's sad because I want to use it as a pda; I consider myself a hacker, but I don't want to lose data! I can handle crashes and reboots, but data loss is no good. | 03:17 |
| timeless | data should all live on your mmc | 03:18 |
| timeless | and your mmc should be vfat | 03:18 |
| SyntaxNinja | mmc == the memory card? | 03:18 |
| SyntaxNinja | but when I reflash, I think I've lost my bookmarks and configuration stuff. | 03:18 |
| timeless | nomis: | 03:18 |
| timeless | hcp->focused_item = g_hash_table_lookup (hcp->al->applets, | 03:19 |
| timeless | hcp->saved_focused_filename); | 03:19 |
| timeless | it's clearly looking for a filename | 03:19 |
| timeless | so give it the whole .so name :) | 03:19 |
| SyntaxNinja | timeless: thanks for the info. it was helpful. | 03:21 |
| * timeless kicks the thumb ime | 03:22 | |
| nomis | timeless: doesn't help. | 03:22 |
| * nomis writes mail to mailinglist. | 03:22 | |
| timeless | it really needs to cooperate w/ xterminal | 03:22 |
| timeless | nomis: well, my send command at least opened control panel | 03:23 |
| nomis | timeless: oh? | 03:23 |
| timeless | and then it complained about the signature :) | 03:23 |
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| timeless | but htat would make sense | 03:23 |
| * timeless goes to try to figure out dbus signatures | 03:23 | |
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| timeless | it sounds like the interface name is wrong? | 03:24 |
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| kkito | hello :) | 03:24 |
| timeless | i suppose i could try to use a debugger | 03:25 |
| nomis | timeless: well, if the method name on the commandline is just "com.nokia.controlpanel.run_method" then the control panel just crashes :) | 03:25 |
| timeless | um | 03:25 |
| timeless | file a bug in maemo.org/bugzilla | 03:26 |
| timeless | steps to reproduce would be simple :) | 03:26 |
| timeless | heck, you have the sources for control panel | 03:26 |
| timeless | you could build it yourself w/ symbols | 03:26 |
| kkito | i've ported a cps2 emu to the n800 ;) | 03:26 |
| timeless | you can probably even use apt-get source since if it's in the xref it's almost certainly available as srcdeb in the repo | 03:27 |
| timeless | hrm | 03:27 |
| kkito | super puzzle fighter roolz! | 03:27 |
| timeless | presumably it crashes because strcmp() doesn't like null pointers | 03:27 |
| timeless | the code has a DEBUG only early return | 03:27 |
| timeless | because the coders who work on osso don't have a clue about glib macros | 03:27 |
| timeless | g_return_val_if_fail (method, OSSO_ERROR); | 03:28 |
| timeless | if ((!strcmp (method, HCP_RPC_METHOD_RUN_APPLET))) | 03:28 |
| timeless | (this is public, you could be reading it from the lxr link i gave a while ago) | 03:28 |
| timeless | it should say if (!method) goto error; | 03:28 |
| timeless | at least, assuming that's what happens | 03:28 |
| timeless | anyway, back to my problem :) | 03:29 |
| timeless | how do giget debs w/o worrying about dependencies? :) | 03:29 |
| timeless | maybe i should do --print-uris :) | 03:30 |
| timeless | curses | 03:30 |
| neostrider_ | kkito, this emulator uses SDL? | 03:30 |
| kkito | neostrider_, yes | 03:31 |
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| neostrider_ | and it already had the service and desktop files setup? | 03:31 |
| kkito | neostrider_, ? | 03:32 |
| neostrider_ | the original source already had desktop and service files? | 03:33 |
| kkito | neostrider_, it is a port from the gp2x version | 03:33 |
| neostrider_ | I know little about gp2x =-) | 03:34 |
| kkito | yesterday i ported gngeo | 03:34 |
| neostrider_ | i guess it was just a pure source and some plataform specific project files, right? | 03:34 |
| kkito | i only change some source code, and the build rules | 03:35 |
| neostrider_ | is the code open? | 03:38 |
| timeless | nomis: so, are you going to apt-get source hildon-control-panel? :) | 03:38 |
| kkito | yes the source code is gpl | 03:38 |
| nomis | timeless: not yet. | 03:39 |
| * timeless frowns | 03:40 | |
| timeless | the sandbox i'm using isn't in its own file system, so i can't cheaply ask it how big it is | 03:40 |
| neostrider_ | kkito, where can i find it? | 03:40 |
| kkito | neostrider_, the original gp2x source code or my modifications? | 03:41 |
| neostrider_ | your mods | 03:41 |
| neostrider_ | please | 03:41 |
| kkito | neostrider_, well i dont want to make the source public from now because it is very primitive, only some hacks to make the emu to compile and run in the n800 | 03:42 |
| neostrider_ | oh...ok | 03:42 |
| kkito | the keys are not ok, the soun is disabled and the image isnt scaled | 03:42 |
| neostrider_ | I just want to study the build rules ,etc | 03:42 |
| neostrider_ | I more like cps1 ;-) | 03:42 |
| kkito | :) | 03:43 |
| neostrider_ | strider ( hence my nickname) | 03:43 |
| neostrider_ | etc | 03:43 |
| * nomis heads for the bed. Too late again :-/ | 03:43 | |
| nomis | timeless: thanks for your help | 03:43 |
| timeless | sleep.. hrm | 03:45 |
| timeless | good luck, but please do file a bug about the crash | 03:45 |
| nomis | timeless: will do tomorrow, I just made it known on the mailinglist. | 03:45 |
| timeless | apt-get --download-only --print-uris install '.*' 2>/dev/null | egrep '^Note' | perl -pne 's/.*?selecting //;s/ for regex.*//' | xargs -n1 apt-get --download-only -y --force-yes --allow-unauthenticated install 2>/dev/null >/dev/null | 03:48 |
| timeless | is what i settled on using | 03:49 |
| * timeless removes the first --print-uris | 03:50 | |
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| * gpd tries gpodder | 04:10 | |
| gpd | crunch | 04:11 |
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| gpd | hmm. vpnc seems to have messed up my /etc/resolv.conf | 04:17 |
| gpd | now, depsite being on a different network entirely it remains | 04:17 |
| gpd | even rebooting doesn't restore it... /me grumbles | 04:19 |
| * gpd fixes by hand... | 04:21 | |
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| timeless | hrm, looks like my apt-get host doesn't actually have dpkg properly "installed" :( | 04:26 |
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| timeless | hrm, no, it's just my man path? | 04:29 |
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| timeless | anyone here familiar w/ debian? | 04:41 |
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| soleblaze | timeless: what are yout rying to do? | 04:45 |
| timeless | well, i ran into a funny problem | 04:45 |
| timeless | man dpkg led me to man 7 undocumented | 04:45 |
| timeless | dpkg dpkg -L dpkg|grep man/man1 | 04:46 |
| timeless | erm | 04:46 |
| timeless | dpkg -L dpkg|grep man/man1 | 04:46 |
| timeless | showed me that the man page for dpkg was installed | 04:46 |
| timeless | this threw me for a bad loop | 04:46 |
| timeless | it turns out that i needed to run mandb(as root) | 04:46 |
| timeless | i'm trying to figure out if it's reasonable to suggest man 7 undocumented suggest running mandb | 04:47 |
| soleblaze | don't see why undocumented shouldn't have helpful tips on how to fix the man problem fi it's a problem | 04:48 |
| timeless | i don't suppose you can think of a man page that offers a suggestion | 04:49 |
| * timeless tries to provide patches | 04:49 | |
| timeless | but that requires knowing the proper style | 04:49 |
| soleblaze | nope, sorry | 04:50 |
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| jtokash | does anyone have privoxy working on the n800? | 07:52 |
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| jtokash | uh oh. reboot loop | 08:43 |
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| jtokash | removing/reinserting the battery seems to have helped | 09:06 |
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| keesj | hi | 09:32 |
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| jtokash | Hi keesj | 09:41 |
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| keesj | wow 3 downloads of xmoto so far. I hope i can cope with the tenstion! | 09:41 |
| tolgam | morning everyone ! | 09:43 |
| tolgam | :) | 09:43 |
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| * mukund just got a N800 coupon | 10:15 | |
| mukund | many thanks! | 10:15 |
| maddler | mukund: great! | 10:21 |
| maddler | hehehe | 10:21 |
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| dwd | Happy Mailman day, everyone. | 10:47 |
| tolgam | mailman day ? | 10:59 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:06 |
| keesj | Hi | 11:08 |
| tolgam | yo | 11:09 |
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| dwd | (Mailman Day: The first of the month, when I get about 50 reminders of mailing lists I'm on) | 11:11 |
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| bedboi | hi there | 11:26 |
| Jaffa | dwd: :) | 11:30 |
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| bedboi | damn | 11:44 |
| maddler | what? | 11:44 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:46 |
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| Jaffa | Anyone tried any packages from http://armel-debs.applieddata.net/debian/ on a Maemo device yet? | 12:24 |
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| maddler | Jaffa: not... | 12:29 |
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| maddler | Jaffa: nice packages... | 12:30 |
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| maddler | Piega`! :D | 13:07 |
| maddler | welcome on MaemoPeople! :D | 13:08 |
| maddler | uh oh... | 13:12 |
| maddler | looks like a flashing session is on the horizon... | 13:12 |
| Jaffa | oh? | 13:13 |
| Piega` | :D | 13:13 |
| maddler | dunno... sometimes the device locks while booting... | 13:13 |
| Piega` | but ihaven't a blog on maemoppl | 13:13 |
| Piega` | :P | 13:13 |
| maddler | and since I'm playing with boot scripts... ;) | 13:13 |
| maddler | Piega`: have you asked for one already? ;) | 13:14 |
| Piega` | no :D | 13:14 |
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| maddler | pfff... italians... | 13:14 |
| Piega` | hahahah | 13:14 |
| maddler | always complaining... and nerver acting! :DDD | 13:14 |
| timeless | ping :) | 13:15 |
| * timeless is looking for help using apt-get to just download a deb by name w/o getting the requisite dependencies (just download, not install) | 13:16 | |
| keesj | maddler, I am going to try anyway :p | 13:16 |
| jcml_ | timeless: does maemo's apt-get support "--print-uris"? | 13:16 |
| maddler | --download-only | 13:16 |
| Piega` | maddler, http://www.pubfoto.com/Immagini/italiano | 13:17 |
| Piega` | and http://www.pubfoto.com/Immagini/Italian | 13:18 |
| maddler | cpnkpnk -> Cpunkpunk? | 13:18 |
| timeless | --download-only doesn't work | 13:21 |
| timeless | because it errors first complaining about the dependnecy | 13:21 |
| timeless | s/nec/enc/ | 13:21 |
| timeless | same for --print-uris | 13:23 |
| timeless | the problem is that the error happens first | 13:23 |
| timeless | timeless@nexenta:~$ apt-get -c /home/timeless/apt-sb.conf --download-only -y --force-yes --allow-unauthenticated install --print-uris maemo-browser-dialogs-dbg | 13:23 |
| timeless | The following packages have unmet dependencies: maemo-browser-dialogs-dbg: Depends: maemo-browser-dialogs (= 2:0.4.12-1) but it is not going to be installed | 13:23 |
| timeless | E: Broken packages | 13:24 |
| jcml_ | Have you tried --force-ignore-errors-you-pedantic-bastard ? | 13:24 |
| dwd | timeless: apt-cache showpkg or apt-cache show will show you the URI, IIRC. | 13:25 |
| timeless | neither show the uri | 13:26 |
| timeless | and neither accepts --print-uris | 13:26 |
| dwd | Hmmm. Oh, no, it won't. | 13:26 |
| timeless | jcml: sounds tempting | 13:26 |
| timeless | show would work | 13:26 |
| jcml_ | timeless: if only ... :) | 13:26 |
| timeless | since i can piece it together from Filename | 13:26 |
| jcml_ | timeless: are you looking for a one off fix, or a repeatable solution? | 13:27 |
| timeless | jcml: repeatable solution | 13:27 |
| timeless | which will be used a couple of hundred times in a row | 13:27 |
| timeless | by a script that may run a dozen times a day | 13:27 |
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| timeless | possibly 5 or 6 days a week when i'm really unlucky | 13:27 |
| jcml_ | well, "apt-cache show $pkg" give you a "Filename:" line with the remote path on the server, and "apt-cache policy $pkg" give you the host. There's a /bit/ missing, but might be a step forward ... | 13:30 |
| timeless | i kinda already know the host | 13:30 |
| jcml_ | oh. Do you know where the URI /starts/? | 13:31 |
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| timeless | i have the sources.list entry | 13:32 |
| timeless | that + filename = file | 13:32 |
| jcml_ | Could you not do: wget $HOST/`apt-cache show $pkg | grep "^Filename:" | cut -f2-10 -d":" | sed "s/^ *//" | sed "s/ *$//"` | 13:33 |
| timeless | policy is actually not right | 13:33 |
| timeless | policy is missing useful things like /repository/ | 13:34 |
| timeless | so my sources.list entry is more useful | 13:34 |
| jcml_ | Is the above any use? | 13:35 |
| timeless | does apt-get do any bookkeeping for files it puts into /var/cache/apt/archives/ ? | 13:35 |
| timeless | i'm proficient in perl, i can easily do that part myself :) | 13:35 |
| jcml_ | :) | 13:35 |
| timeless | the hint about apt-cache show is mildly useful | 13:35 |
| timeless | although still fairly stupid in my book | 13:36 |
| jcml_ | :) | 13:36 |
| suihkulokki | timeless: libapt-pkg-perl =) | 13:37 |
| * jcml_ :: Mildly useful for over 8.8E+08 seconds | 13:38 | |
| timeless | um | 13:38 |
| timeless | The following NEW packages will be installed: libapt-pkg-perl | 13:39 |
| * timeless waits | 13:39 | |
| * suihkulokki farts | 13:40 | |
| timeless | You need to install the perl-doc package to use this program. | 13:40 |
| * timeless goes on a shopping spree, buying libapt-pkg-perl, perl-doc, groff, and a 16port switch | 13:41 | |
| suihkulokki | can you apt-get a switch too? | 13:42 |
| timeless | well, if i had a web interface, i could use the web for everything | 13:43 |
| * timeless isn't sure about a web apt interface | 13:43 | |
| timeless | it probably exists | 13:43 |
| keesj | perhaps in webmin | 13:44 |
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| timeless | suihkulokki: so, does AptPkg:: actually help me? | 13:47 |
| suihkulokki | absolutely no idea | 13:48 |
| timeless | what i need is allowbroken | 13:50 |
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| mgedmin | what exactly does "order status: in progress" mean in the nokiausa shop? | 14:04 |
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| dwd | How fast does the standard SD support go on the N800? | 14:05 |
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| c0ffee | developer device program closing in about 24h | 14:15 |
| c0ffee | if you want to apply, do it now :) | 14:15 |
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| bedboi | a question to nokia developers: is there a real reason for not backporting alarmd to os2006? | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | bedboi: I'd guess the answers would be: a) it's part of OS2007, b) "we are, see the 770 hacker edition" | 14:20 |
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| lardman | Unless there's some hw issue too | 14:21 |
| bedboi | alarmd api is quite useful for gpe-calendar | 14:22 |
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| dwd | Hmmm. Let me rephrase my question - in a stock N800, is there any point my buying a ~20M/s SD card over a ~3M/s card? | 14:25 |
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| mgedmin | dwd: IIRC thoughtfix posted some SD transfer speed benchmarks on his blog | 14:26 |
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| mgedmin | which seems to be down at the moment | 14:26 |
| dwd | Yay, Boo, respectively. | 14:26 |
| mgedmin | google cache? ;) | 14:26 |
| mgedmin | IIRC n800 does not use the full potential speed of SD cards | 14:27 |
| mgedmin | there was a kernel patch for that | 14:27 |
| dwd | Ah, I thought the kernel patch did SDHC. | 14:27 |
| mgedmin | but you can put the SD card in some other reader | 14:27 |
| mgedmin | maybe that's another patch | 14:27 |
| keesj | what would be a good place to ask x11 questions *I want a fake mouse pointer* | 14:28 |
| * mgedmin is usually more concerned about capacity than speed, so /me wasn't paying attention | 14:28 | |
| lardman | keesj: I remember seeing a ml post about this | 14:28 |
| lardman | something to do with the pointer exsting, but being transparent | 14:28 |
| keesj | lardman, yes, I have read those but was not happy about the answers | 14:29 |
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| Jaffa | lardman: re h/w for alarmd, remember that the original alarmd designs were being discussed on m-d wrt the 770 | 14:32 |
| mgedmin | perhaps it would be enough to recompile the alarmd debs for scirocco and put them in maemo extras? | 14:34 |
| Jaffa | Might be. Is the Maemo 3 components' source available yet? | 14:35 |
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| lardman | Jaffa: Yep, I remember that, just a thought | 14:42 |
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| nomis | hmm, how do I get dbus-monitor to show all messages? Starting as root it does not seem to be able to connect to the session bus. | 15:10 |
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| bugmaker | Just picked up a new N800 - sorry if this is off topic, but I cannot figure out how to get the memory card (the one that came with the N800) into the internal memory slot (the slot under the batter cover). Any suggestions? Contacts up or down? Mitered corner to the left or right? | 15:44 |
| robtaylor | nomis: you'd need a seperate dbus-monitor running for the system bus and the session bus | 15:44 |
| dwd | bugmaker: Contacts down, near the bottom of the N800. | 15:45 |
| dwd | bugmaker: So, label is visible but upside down. | 15:45 |
| bugmaker | Hey - it just sort of popped in, maybe I shouldn't have been playing with it at 3:00 in the morning :-) Thanks dwd | 15:46 |
| nomis | robtaylor: the problem seems to be, that the dbus-monitor running as root cannot connect to the session-bus of the user. | 15:46 |
| dwd | bugmaker: NP, took me a while to figure it out too. :-) | 15:46 |
| nomis | robtaylor: when I start it as user I have the impression that I don't see the message I am interested in. | 15:46 |
| robtaylor | nomis: if youre connecting to the sessoin bus, you should run as the user | 15:48 |
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| robtaylor | nomis: are you sure the message you're interested in is on teh session bus? | 15:48 |
| nomis | robtaylor: well, I've looked at both the system and the session bus. | 15:48 |
| robtaylor | nomis: also, what version dbus are you running? | 15:48 |
| nomis | robtaylor: whatever is installed on the N800. | 15:48 |
| * robtaylor doesn't have one in front of him to check | 15:49 | |
| nomis | robtaylor: I am looking for the message that invokes the display control applet. | 15:49 |
| robtaylor | dbus-daemon --version | 15:49 |
| robtaylor | its probably 0.7x, in which case dbus-monitor is broken | 15:49 |
| nomis | oh. | 15:50 |
| nomis | No, it is 0.61 | 15:50 |
| robtaylor | even worse | 15:50 |
| nomis | heh, ok :) | 15:50 |
| robtaylor | what you can do is build dbus 1.x in scratchbox | 15:51 |
| robtaylor | copy over teh dbus-monitor binary and the libdbus-1.so.3 | 15:51 |
| robtaylor | and do LD_LIBRARY_PATH={patch to libdbus-1.so.3) ./dbus-monitor | 15:52 |
| robtaylor | (--session/--system as appropriate) | 15:52 |
| nomis | erf. | 15:52 |
| * robtaylor hopes for an OS update with a newer dbus | 15:52 | |
| robtaylor | s/patch/path | 15:52 |
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| nomis | so the broken dbus might actually be the reason why my dbus-send command is not working. | 15:53 |
| robtaylor | nomis: hm,, well dbus-send can't send some message types | 15:54 |
| robtaylor | nomis: but the 0.61 versoin doesn have any big bugs, iirc | 15:54 |
| nomis | robtaylor: hmm. | 15:55 |
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| kkito | hello | 16:03 |
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| wrap | hi everyone. i'm just starting out with scatchbox-0.9.8.8 and maemo-2.1 (scirocco) | 16:13 |
| wrap | I have tried to compile maemopad application under a HOST (native x86) target but see some compilation iisues/problems with gtk and gdk headers | 16:14 |
| wrap | are there known problems with this release ? | 16:15 |
| veli | wrap: at least update to scratchbox apophis... | 16:15 |
| kaatis | wrap, you can use the scratchbox installer from bora http://repository.maemo.org/stable/bora/maemo-scratchbox-install_3.0.sh | 16:15 |
| kaatis | wrap, host target (with host gcc) is used to build stuff for scratchbox devkits | 16:16 |
| wrap | I am building for OS 2006 not OS 2007 so need scratchbox-0.9.8.x not 1.0.1 ?? | 16:16 |
| mgedmin | the new 2.2 SDK requires scratchbox 1.0 | 16:16 |
| mgedmin | so you can have both 2.2 and 3.0 SDKs side-by-side with the same scratchbox | 16:17 |
| wrap | ok i'm not using latest release then. | 16:17 |
| kaatis | wrap, you can use the newer one as well, it has the same toolchain | 16:17 |
| mgedmin | just create separate targets | 16:17 |
| mgedmin | the 2.1 SDK also appears to work with scratchbox 1.0 | 16:17 |
| mgedmin | although officially it requires 0.9.8 | 16:17 |
| wrap | h'mm do you advise going to scratchbox apophis and maemo-2.2 then ? | 16:18 |
| wrap | I installed apophis yesteday and then doubting taht itwas backwards compatible I removed it and installed scratchbox-0.9.8.8 believing that this would be nmore compatible with scirocco release. | 16:21 |
| wrap | Oh well looks as though scratchbox apophis was what I should have stayed with. | 16:22 |
| lardman | Anyone familiar with Java? If so, any ideas what the odd names on these files relate to?: http://i30www.ira.uka.de/p2p/ambicomp/phoneME_Nokia770/ | 16:22 |
| glassss | odd names? | 16:23 |
| lardman | Do the names mean anything? | 16:23 |
| lardman | cyclops, etc.? | 16:23 |
| lardman | the cyclops one never actually starts applets while the one above works fine (command line stuff) | 16:24 |
| * lardman was trying to build classpath last night and stumbled on these things that already work :) | 16:24 | |
| glassss | it's other build version that's just named so | 16:24 |
| glassss | or so | 16:24 |
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| VRe | where is this new 2.2 SDK? I can't see it in http://repository.maemo.org/stable/ | 16:45 |
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| mgedmin | oh, it wasn't released yet? | 16:47 |
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| mgedmin | they promised it in January 2007 | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | I must've mixed up the OS2006.3 announcement with SDK 2.2 announcement | 16:48 |
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| msk_ | can anyone enlightened tell me what possible use the lifeguard reset feature could have? :) | 16:49 |
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| mgedmin | some process crashes | 16:50 |
| VRe | resetting the device when is stuck? | 16:50 |
| mgedmin | a reboot fixes things | 16:50 |
| mgedmin | clueless end-user doesn't know enough about the device to realise he needs to reboot | 16:50 |
| mgedmin | he just sees a device that doesn't function in some way | 16:50 |
| msk_ | well yeah, but as I understand it it does the reset _at_ boot | 16:51 |
| Veggen | hmm. Perhaps one should just turn off lifeguard-resets completely... | 16:51 |
| msk_ | so it's very likely to fail again because it will boot in exactly the same way | 16:51 |
| mgedmin | if it triggers at boot time, then you have broken the device in some way | 16:51 |
| mgedmin | only reflash or a large helping of cluefulness will unbreak it | 16:51 |
| msk_ | well I only got it yesterday.. and yeah, I had to reflash it | 16:52 |
| msk_ | all I had had time to do was install gizmo and unsuccessfully try to install that calendar app | 16:52 |
| msk_ | (that's in the applications 2007 catalog, don't remember the name offhand..) | 16:53 |
| VRe | atleast for me the lifeguard seemed bit to fast, sometimes a bit of waiting made the device to work | 16:53 |
| msk_ | I dunno, I just read somewhere that it will activate if booting takes too long | 16:53 |
| mgedmin | hmm | 16:54 |
| mgedmin | that's interesting | 16:54 |
| kulve | msk_: it's not that simple | 16:54 |
| msk_ | and that installing certain applications will make it take longer at boot... if that's the case then the concept seems a bit fragile :) | 16:54 |
| kulve | if the dsme doesn't ping the hardware frequently enough, it is reseted | 16:55 |
| msk_ | maybe not.. it was a random web forum, but info is a bit scarce | 16:55 |
| kulve | if some important daemon crashes (which cannot be just started back up), dsme restarts the device | 16:55 |
| msk_ | kulve: ok, thanks for the clarification.. | 16:57 |
| msk_ | I'm still not sure what I could have done with the device yesterday though that could have caused that this morning :) | 16:57 |
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| kulve | msk_: there are quite a lot of bugs that causes annoying resets. Reset loops are more rare though | 16:58 |
| kulve | filling the flash can cause bad things, but that shouldn't happen easily. | 16:59 |
| msk_ | hmm, could retrieving the headers of a large mailbox have been the reason? | 17:00 |
| kulve | nothing should be. The dsme is daemon that should run just nicely on the background pinging the hw. | 17:01 |
| msk_ | cos I left it to do that, then when it seemed like it wasn't getting anywhere I stopped it... maybe it wasn't getting anywhere cos it ran out of memory? | 17:01 |
| kulve | or do you mean filling the flash? | 17:01 |
| msk_ | well, filling the flast and subsequently making dsme crash or whatever | 17:02 |
| kulve | running out of memory slows the whole thing down a much, so that can cause bad things too | 17:02 |
| msk_ | er, flash | 17:02 |
| msk_ | didn't notice much of a slowdown | 17:02 |
| kulve | have you enabled swap? | 17:02 |
| kulve | on the internal mmc | 17:02 |
| msk_ | haven't done anything to the basic settings | 17:03 |
| msk_ | don't even know where to do that :) | 17:03 |
| kulve | control panel's memory plugin | 17:04 |
| kulve | I put the 112M swap on the 128M card that came with the device and bought a bigger card for actual use.. | 17:04 |
| msk_ | hm, yeah, that would be logical | 17:04 |
| msk_ | ok.. should do that myself.. | 17:05 |
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| mgedmin | that's a lot of swap | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | I have 64 megs of swap on my 770 | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | I haven't ever seen it use half of that | 17:07 |
| kulve | mgedmin: well, I don't have anything else to do with the internal card :) | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | heh | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | backups? | 17:08 |
| kulve | maybe.. Atm I don't have anything to backup and if I do a backup I can use the external 2G card.. | 17:09 |
| Tak | meh, my 770 is spontaneously rebooting not | 17:09 |
| Tak | s/t$/w/ | 17:09 |
| Tak | *often* | 17:10 |
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| Setok | örrör | 17:11 |
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| dwd | Oh. Running python2.5 in the SDK_ARMEL target is strange - "/usr/bin/python2.5 setup.py build" causes that to be argv[] - so python is laucnhed as setup.py and tries to interpret build. | 17:11 |
| kulve | Setok: whole fishpool is joining here, it seems.. | 17:11 |
| Setok | kulve: yeah :-) | 17:12 |
| Setok | kulve: we're all having our problems with the n800 | 17:12 |
| kulve | don't we all :) | 17:12 |
| msk_ | when one of us finds it, the horde is set loose.. | 17:12 |
| Setok | I guess.. | 17:12 |
| Veggen | kulve: My strategy is storage-intensive application data (think your Maemo mapper cached maps when out travelling), mp3's, e-books etc. on the external one, more permanent application data on the internal. | 17:12 |
| Setok | to be honest, I'm just slightly disappointed with the n800. with great software it could be so much more | 17:12 |
| Veggen | Setok: it's a base. Now, developers will have to make it better. | 17:13 |
| Setok | veggen: true, but that works up to a point. The base software should be excellent to make it more appealing | 17:13 |
| Setok | especially to the non-nerds | 17:13 |
| kulve | Setok: yeah, the "built-in" software is pretty thin | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | yes, but this is not a perfect world | 17:13 |
| Tak | it's not?! | 17:14 |
| tzz | dwd: how do you install python 2.5 in the SDK_ARMEL target? It's 2.3 by default. Do I add some repositories? I couldn't find that info. | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | the difference between os2005 and os2006 is encouraging | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | we may yet get perfect software for the n800 in 2008 | 17:14 |
| Setok | kulve: btw. any cool projects hanging around? would like to hear about any interesting positions or whatever | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | o maybe n999 in 2016 | 17:14 |
| dwd | tzz: There's some Stuff about it on the pymaemo garage site. http://respository.maemo.org/extras/ bora free non-free | 17:14 |
| msk_ | will the n800 be better supported on future upgrades than the 770 btw? | 17:14 |
| tzz | btw, has anyone else noticed the python2.5-runtime package can't install on the N800? It depends on libbluetooth1 but libbluetooth2 is installed. | 17:14 |
| Veggen | mgedmin: Or even later this year. | 17:14 |
| msk_ | (not sure if nokia has any position on that) | 17:14 |
| tzz | thanks dwd | 17:15 |
| Veggen | mgedmin: There's bound to be things that they didn't finish until release. | 17:15 |
| kulve | Setok: what kind of projects..? | 17:15 |
| dwd | msk_: Four upgrades, including one major, inside about 18 months? That's pretty tough to beat. :-) | 17:15 |
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| Setok | kulve: UI design / code | 17:15 |
| keesj | How can a developer mailing list exist if they can not be open about what they are doing? | 17:15 |
| msk_ | dwd: well I only just got mine, so I'm mostly interested about the future :) | 17:15 |
| kulve | msk_: the 770 is just 770. The n800 is part of the nseries. But of course that may mean nothing.. | 17:16 |
| kulve | Setok: garage.maemo.org is full of projects hanging around ;) | 17:16 |
| Setok | kulve: I meant like work-wise | 17:16 |
| Setok | through Fishpool or direct | 17:16 |
| Setok | I mean, my free time is 100% filled with cool stuff as it is :) | 17:16 |
| msk_ | kulve: yeah, and it seems a more "release" type product all around.. except the builtin software :) | 17:16 |
| kulve | Setok: not really.. | 17:17 |
| Setok | kulve: too bad. if something comes up, though, I might be interested | 17:17 |
| kulve | Setok: sure | 17:17 |
| Setok | I've been thinking about porting Tcl to the n800. Any ideas if anyone has already attempted that? | 17:18 |
| Setok | could build a Tcl extension for the GUI stuff as well. Might be interesting as a weekend project at some point | 17:18 |
| kulve | everybody is just talking about python.. | 17:18 |
| Tak | gtk bindings for tcl...on one hand it makes me shudder, but on the other, it'd look better than tk | 17:19 |
| Setok | yeah, it's the #1 script language for it, I guess, but Tcl rules | 17:19 |
| Setok | Tcl is, in all seriousness, one of the most underrated languages ther eis | 17:19 |
| mgedmin | not lisp? | 17:20 |
| Setok | lisp isn't underrated | 17:20 |
| tzz | setok: tcl/tk is amazingly powerful. I've worked with some very advanced medical software implemented in tcl/tk. | 17:20 |
| Setok | it's just not used much :) | 17:20 |
| Setok | tzz: yeah. I haven't done that much with Tk, although what I've done has been pretty nice and easy | 17:21 |
| Setok | but I've done a fair bit with Tcl itself | 17:21 |
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| tzz | setok: we're talking 3D MRI imaging, serious stuff. Eventually it got ported to C++ and OpenGL, but it still has a lot of tcl APIs | 17:21 |
| Setok | cool | 17:22 |
| tzz | (it's called the 3D Slicer, open-source software, see slicer.org) | 17:22 |
| Setok | 'slicer' -- nice name for a Doctor's software :) | 17:23 |
| Setok | tzz: I don't know anything about the field, but looks very convincing | 17:24 |
| tzz | heh yes, they named it after the image slices it does through 3D volumes. Anyhow, I was just saying Tcl/Tk is very useful. Tivo also uses it a lot. | 17:24 |
| Setok | yeah, Tivo is another big one. Cisco apparently too | 17:25 |
| Setok | I got into Tcl back in my Tellabs days | 17:27 |
| Setok | they wre using it there to run their test systems | 17:27 |
| Setok | back then I just thought of it as "something that does the job", but later I've come to appreciate it on other levels too | 17:27 |
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| JussiP | Some friends of mine who have used tcl say the syntax/quirks makes their brain implode. | 17:29 |
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| Setok | jussi: it will if you think of it as a C language, which it's not. The syntax is actually very beautiful in the sense that there are very few rules | 17:29 |
| Setok | the whole language is defined with 11 definitions | 17:30 |
| Setok | if, while, procedure definition etc... they are all just commands without any special syntax | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | sort of like lisp, isn't it? | 17:30 |
| Setok | yeah | 17:30 |
| Disconnect | that doesn't make it good :) | 17:31 |
| Setok | lisp with fewer parenthesis :) | 17:31 |
| * Disconnect learned it for tivo way back when. it was like learning basic - totally screwed me up when i went back to real languages | 17:31 | |
| Setok | disconnect: depends on your definition. it gives you a lot of power and quite honestly it's the easiest language to extend with C | 17:31 |
| timeless | kulve: create a core-dumps directory in the root of your internal card and collect crashes :) | 17:32 |
| Setok | basic OTOH has piles of different mini-syntaxes :) | 17:32 |
| kulve | timeless: or external..? | 17:33 |
| Disconnect | i found python to be real easy to extend. took about 2 hours to do a full libxmms mapper a couple years back | 17:33 |
| Disconnect | haven't tried extending tcl tho, so.. | 17:33 |
| Setok | well, tcl was built originally from the ground up for extensions :) | 17:34 |
| Setok | I don't know if Python has a stubs library yet? | 17:34 |
| Setok | or do extensions still need to be recompiled when the Python core is updated? | 17:34 |
| valtsu | argh, I need to hang on some C/C++ channels instead of this Tcl/Python nonsense channel ;) | 17:35 |
| c0ffee | :) | 17:35 |
| Tak | valtsu: agreed! | 17:35 |
| * Setok is eagerly looking for work-related excused to do some Objective C! | 17:35 | |
| timeless | veggen: i have a couple hundred mb of maps on my 770's card :) | 17:35 |
| valtsu | luckily I can also build boats instead of software :D | 17:36 |
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| nelson | woot woot! UPS came! And brought happy crunchy goodness! | 17:36 |
| nelson | All Nokia employees, stand up and take a bow. | 17:36 |
| timeless | kulve: if you change the system so that it has /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern pointing to external, otherwise, no | 17:37 |
| keesj | congrat! | 17:37 |
| timeless | nelson: nokia employees are in finland and have nothing to todo w/ UPS | 17:37 |
| nelson | hehe. | 17:37 |
| timeless | but do enjoy your new toy | 17:37 |
| mgedmin | crunchy? YOU ATE YOUR N800??? | 17:37 |
| Tak | rofl | 17:37 |
| timeless | in fact, ii suspect most employees wouldn't know what ups is | 17:37 |
| c0ffee | i ate the stylus | 17:37 |
| c0ffee | the 770 styles was more tasty | 17:37 |
| jcml_ | Dammit. I want *my* devices hand delivered by the coders :| | 17:38 |
| mgedmin | timeless: why, *everybody* knows it's uninterruptible power supply | 17:38 |
| timeless | stylii i believe | 17:38 |
| nelson | Yes, the N800 is a VERY sweet piece of hardware. | 17:38 |
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| * cesman seconds that | 17:39 | |
| Tak | crunchy AND sweet...now it sounds like a breakfast cereal | 17:39 |
| kulve | timeless: on my n800, I created the dir to external card without changing initfs and cores emerged there | 17:39 |
| timeless | oops, oh right | 17:40 |
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| timeless | sorry, i'm used to my n800s which have broken external slots so i symlinked the external to the internal | 17:40 |
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| keesj | what is the xset770 program? | 17:41 |
| mgedmin | question for people who ordered their n800s online: what's the progression of values for "order status"? | 17:41 |
| mgedmin | keesj: a subset of xset that only allows you to enable/disable autorepeating for certain keys | 17:41 |
| keesj | xset770 reboot off | 17:42 |
| nelson | mgedmin: Went straight from "In progress" to "Shipped" for me. | 17:42 |
| Tak | keesj: argh, no kidding | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | nelson: how long was it in progress? | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | (in days) | 17:44 |
| nelson | 0.1 days | 17:44 |
| mgedmin | hmm | 17:44 |
| nelson | I would call the 866 number. | 17:44 |
| mgedmin | mine is "in progress" since yesterday | 17:44 |
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| msk_ | amigaos vois tehdä comebackin mobiililaitteissa | 17:53 |
| msk_ | oops | 17:53 |
| msk_ | silly epic | 17:53 |
| Setok | use a better IRC client ;-> | 17:54 |
| Streg | msk_: Well that's and interesting idea :) | 17:54 |
| msk_ | bah, it was good in 1997, it's good now | 17:55 |
| msk_ | streg: possibly, was just a random thought | 17:55 |
| Streg | :) | 17:56 |
| Setok | AmigaOS -- pah. Let's install TOS on it! | 17:56 |
| Setok | or even better, MultiTOS | 17:56 |
| Setok | that'd rule | 17:56 |
| * robtaylor looks fearfully at Setok | 17:56 | |
| Setok | ahh.. the good old days | 17:58 |
| robtaylor | Setok: bad old days surely? the St was only fun when you wre poking the graphics chip directly | 17:58 |
| robtaylor | =) | 17:59 |
| msk_ | umm yeah.. an AUTO folder on the flash | 17:59 |
| * dwd looks at the virtual keyboard, wondering which key to use as Symbol Shift. | 17:59 | |
| dwd | Oh, no! No multitouch! How would we get into Extended Mode for BEEP? | 17:59 |
| Setok | rob: actually, I went from an Amiga to an ST | 18:00 |
| robtaylor | Setok: heh, i was STFM->STE->Falcon | 18:00 |
| Setok | this was in the 1.3 days. I pulled out too may hairs with the buggy stuff and Amigas really should be used with harddrives.. | 18:00 |
| Setok | the Falcon ruled :) | 18:00 |
| kulve | what's the best uptime people have get with their n800? | 18:01 |
| Setok | I'm still pissed off we never released our demo on the Falcon | 18:01 |
| robtaylor | Setok: apart from memory bandwidth | 18:01 |
| Setok | (someone made a video file of the effects, though, but texturemapping I think was missing and stuff) | 18:01 |
| Setok | rob: yeah :P | 18:01 |
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| Setok | rob: we worked out it might be cool to have a cable going from the DSP port to the SCSI port. That way you'd get more bandwidth direct from the DSP into DMA :) | 18:02 |
| robtaylor | heh, that sounds liek it'd have been a cool hack :) | 18:02 |
| Setok | I think part of the idea was that you wouldn't have to go through the CPU | 18:02 |
| Setok | the DSP was very cool for stuff | 18:02 |
| robtaylor | Setok: rember the rotating scaling tile demo? | 18:02 |
| Setok | yeah | 18:03 |
| robtaylor | the other week i saw that replicated on a C64... | 18:03 |
| Setok | well, there were several that did that | 18:03 |
| Setok | rob: yup. Chances are I might know the guys :) | 18:03 |
| X-Fade | kulve: About a day? | 18:03 |
| robtaylor | i was slightly shocked | 18:03 |
| robtaylor | Setok: heh, probly | 18:03 |
| Setok | I guess you haven't heard viznut's speec synthesiser demo on a Vic-20? | 18:04 |
| kulve | X-Fade: something like that yeah. I have heard about some many reboots, that probably that's about the best.. | 18:04 |
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| Setok | viznut has done like textured tunnels and voxel landscapes and stuff on a measly vic-20 ): | 18:04 |
| Setok | :) | 18:04 |
| X-Fade | kulve: Every morning my N800 just shows a desktop. So it must have been rebooted overnight. | 18:05 |
| Setok | kulve: uptime here is >1 day atm | 18:05 |
| kulve | Setok: well, it'll boot soon ;) | 18:05 |
| Setok | then again, it's not like I've actively been pushing it | 18:05 |
| Setok | damn | 18:05 |
| kulve | tomorrow morning 0600 | 18:05 |
| Setok | oh? | 18:05 |
| kulve | Setok: you don't need to push it even.. | 18:05 |
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| Setok | any reason why it would do that? | 18:05 |
| robtaylor | Setok: no, but i do remeber speech synths on the spectrum and BBC | 18:06 |
| kulve | Setok: My device booted 0600 on the first morning without any reason.. | 18:06 |
| kulve | woke me up | 18:06 |
| sp3000 | I don't think I've seen resets more than ~1/wk | 18:06 |
| X-Fade | I have been woken up a few times by my N800. Nice Nokia boot sound. | 18:06 |
| Setok | kulve: Ok. could be it did that here too, but I'm faaast asleep at 0600 :) | 18:06 |
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| kulve | X-Fade: I have now all sound effects switched off | 18:06 |
| kulve | Setok: login and check uptime ;) | 18:07 |
| Setok | rob: would you happen to know how to get in contact with clive sinclair? ;-) | 18:07 |
| sp3000 | hello kulve :) | 18:07 |
| kulve | hello.. | 18:07 |
| * sp3000 <-- tuukka, with his weird old nick | 18:07 | |
| kulve | oh | 18:07 |
| Setok | kulve: I don't have any shells or anything installed (yet). Is there somewhere to check that stuff with the default apps? | 18:07 |
| kulve | Setok: not really | 18:08 |
| dwd | Setok: Either "Sir Clive", or "Uncle Clive", depending on how old you are. | 18:08 |
| KevinVerma | Hello, can someone pls suggest me N800/770 screen pixel size ? | 18:08 |
| kulve | you can browse something with opera, but not much.. | 18:08 |
| KevinVerma | I am creating some plucker documents for off-line reading | 18:08 |
| Setok | dwd: hm, I guess uncle clive then | 18:08 |
| robtaylor | Setok: i hear he still lives in cambridge, but i havn't seen him around recently ;) | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | KevinVerma: About 220 dpi. | 18:08 |
| Setok | rob: he has invented a new bike thingy | 18:09 |
| dwd | robtaylor: Last I heard he was looking into portable computing. | 18:09 |
| * robtaylor lives <1k from the old sinclair research building | 18:09 | |
| KevinVerma | X-Fade, how do i translate into n X n pixels ? | 18:09 |
| robtaylor | he doesnt seems to knwo much about websites: | 18:10 |
| robtaylor | http://www.sinclair-research.co.uk/ | 18:10 |
| kulve | KevinVerma: are you asking about the resolution or about the size of a pixel? | 18:10 |
| Setok | someone got tcl/tk to run on the 770 | 18:11 |
| Setok | so I guess 800 should be OK | 18:11 |
| Setok | http://wiki.tcl.tk/15408 | 18:11 |
| kulve | hmm.. I think the "resolution" here isn't very specific word.. | 18:12 |
| kulve | Setok: surely it's runn | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | KevinVerma: It's resolution is 800x480. At 220 dpi. It's 0.0115 cm per pixel :) | 18:12 |
| kulve | -n | 18:12 |
| dwd | Does becomeroot work on the N800? | 18:12 |
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| dwd | X-Fade: Actually, its resolution is 220dpi, really. The screen width and height are 800 and 480 respectively. | 18:13 |
| kulve | dwd: I use sshd and logging through the wlan.. | 18:13 |
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| kulve | dwd: I mean generally.. not that wiki instruction stuff.. | 18:13 |
| dwd | kulve: dropbear, or red-pill/openssh? | 18:14 |
| kulve | dwd: I've been using red-pill/openssh | 18:14 |
| kulve | dunno which is better.. | 18:14 |
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| pbrook | I'm trying to ssh into my n800 over wireless, and it doesn't seem to be working. Works fine connecting locally from the n800, but the connection hangs from elsewhere. | 18:15 |
| dwd | pbrook: Firewalled somewhere? | 18:15 |
| pbrook | It appears that when I cause network activity on the n800 it works, but if the n800 isn't transmitting anything the connectin blocks. | 18:15 |
| pbrook | I'm Don't think it's firewall 'cos I've got other machines on the same wireless that work fine. | 18:16 |
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| tzz | dwd: becomeroot works on the N800. | 18:17 |
| pbrook | Also, when I do "ping n800", the first 20 or so packets get dropped, then it starts responding. | 18:20 |
| KevinVerma | X-Fade, thanks | 18:20 |
| dwd | Is there some magic to make packages "compatible" with Bora/Maemo that I've forgotten? | 18:20 |
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| dwd | I've got two Python extensions that dpkg installs, but the app manager refuses to. | 18:21 |
| Tak | put them in section user/something ? | 18:21 |
| kender | hello | 18:21 |
| jait | dwd: other than the "Section: user/*" ? | 18:21 |
| kulve | dwd: the red pill stuff | 18:21 |
| dwd | jait: Ah, for some reason I thought that merely supressed listing. | 18:21 |
| pbrook | It feels like the n800 wireless interface isn't waking form low-power mode properly except when the network traffic is initiated from the n800. | 18:21 |
| KevinVerma | dwd, X-Fade what should be an ideal nXn size for making plucker docs for 770 or n800 ? | 18:21 |
| tigert | if YourApp depends on foolib it gets installed by app installer whn you install YourApp | 18:22 |
| X-Fade | KevinVerma: I really don't get what you want to do.. | 18:22 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | Aloha! | 18:22 |
| kulve | pbrook: it should work ok.. | 18:22 |
| tigert | kevin, screen size is 800x480 | 18:23 |
| KevinVerma | X-Fade, I am making plucker documents for reading with FBreader | 18:23 |
| kulve | pbrook: i.e. works for me | 18:23 |
| dwd | tigert: Ah, okay, so non-user/* are allowed as dependencies, but not as user-installable directly. | 18:23 |
| KevinVerma | tigert, you mean 800x400 pixels ? | 18:23 |
| tigert | dwd, that is the idea. they need to be in a repo of course. | 18:23 |
| tigert | kevin, yes | 18:23 |
| dwd | tigert: Sure. Thanks. | 18:23 |
| KevinVerma | tigert, thanks i'll go ahead give a try and put up on wiki later | 18:24 |
| kulve | 800x480 is the full resolution/whatever | 18:24 |
| kulve | of course title bar etc takes a bit from it if not in full screen mode | 18:24 |
| mgedmin | why does plucker need the screen resolution? to resize images? | 18:24 |
| tigert | the toolbar for browser is something, 50 pixels tall? | 18:24 |
| tigert | i dont remember now | 18:25 |
| mgedmin | the tutorial had all the pixel measurements iirc | 18:25 |
| KevinVerma | mgedmin, thanks for that i'm too dumb just noticed that with sunrisexp too | 18:25 |
| Tak | yeah, the fs and non-fs resolutions are in the tutorial | 18:25 |
| KevinVerma | this is sure for image display settings | 18:26 |
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| sp3000 | tigert: 58px, says innerHeight | 18:29 |
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| pbrook | It definitely seems like the wireless interface stops working a couple of seconds of inactivity, and only outgoing traffic wakes it up :-( | 18:30 |
| wumpus | huh, are you sure, I was perfectly able to ssh to it | 18:34 |
| kulve | pbrook: that sure does sound wrong behaviour. And I again suggest installing syslog, since icd logs a lot there. It's a bit cryptic thoug | 18:35 |
| Setok | hm, even with screen lock on, the screen lights up from touches | 18:38 |
| Setok | and without a hard case that's likely to happen a lot.. | 18:38 |
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| * Jaffa takes the opportunity to moan about video playback on the N800 some more: https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=991 | 18:40 | |
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| pbrook | kulve: nothing relevant in syslog. | 18:42 |
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| keesj | I am searching for xmkmf to build a program in scratchbox. is that available somewhere? | 19:01 |
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| Tak | xutils-dev package | 19:03 |
| keesj | and how can I avoid such questions next time? | 19:03 |
| keesj | | 19:03 |
| Tak | I ran a search on packages.debian.org | 19:03 |
| Tak | there's probably a way involving apt-file as well | 19:04 |
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| maddler | doh! | 19:07 |
| Setok | it kind of makes you wonder with so many bugs and problems around the n800 | 19:07 |
| Setok | and I'm sure there are some Nokia folk here | 19:08 |
| Setok | ... but does Nokia actually do QA on these devices? | 19:08 |
| Setok | or just release them and hope the community'll fix 'em? | 19:08 |
| * Jaffa 's glad they released it when they did. | 19:09 | |
| glassss | they do a lot but fail a lot in doing it... | 19:09 |
| mgedmin | just imagine what we'd have if they didn't do any QA | 19:09 |
| keesj | :p I am not from nokia , but this is what I like about the device. if if where finished it would be so lame. | 19:09 |
| Tak | imo they kind of shot themselves in the foot by not releasing to devs slightly in advance | 19:10 |
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| keesj | yes, and if the proccess could be more open it would make sense | 19:10 |
| Setok | keesj: how so? | 19:12 |
| Setok | I mean, I'm all for an open platform and such, but come on, I'd also like a device which works :) | 19:12 |
| keesj | but I have been to many phone stores in Amsterdam and non of them knew there was such a thing. it is all new and needs to find a place. and I don't think the phone store is the right place. so I guess there is plenty of time to fix the problems for next release | 19:13 |
| Setok | some of the problems are so obvious it pretty much means nobody bothered trying them ... | 19:13 |
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| keesj | Setok: really , there is no default PIM software no great games. it is for hackers and hacker companies who can seel nice software bundeled with the device IMHO of course :p | 19:14 |
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| keesj | seel = sell | 19:15 |
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| maddler | keesj: I agree... | 19:16 |
| keesj | that is not 100% true, but I still don't really understand how the n880 is supposed to be marketed. It is a great device for at home for home control | 19:16 |
| maddler | keesj: Is the first device (beside my PCs) which allows me to experiment... and to play with... | 19:16 |
| maddler | I've been a Palm user since the time of Palm Pilot... 10yrs? | 19:17 |
| keesj | maddler: I love it | 19:17 |
| Setok | as far as I can tell, the n800 is still very much a geek toy | 19:17 |
| Setok | I couldn't possibly imagine buying one for my mum | 19:17 |
| maddler | and I've never experienced anything like N800... | 19:17 |
| Setok | you'd need so much better integrated software for it to hit the consumer market properly | 19:17 |
| maddler | Setok: that's true... | 19:17 |
| mgedmin | Setok: I bought a 770 for my mum :) | 19:18 |
| Setok | :P | 19:18 |
| maddler | in fact 90% of N800 and possiblu 770 users are geeks! :D | 19:18 |
| maddler | my wife use my old 770... and she feels comfortable with it... | 19:18 |
| maddler | to check her mail... | 19:18 |
| maddler | web surfing... | 19:18 |
| maddler | and talks... | 19:18 |
| Setok | the mail client on the n800 was really very slow | 19:18 |
| Setok | so I have ended up not using it either :( | 19:18 |
| Setok | I'll give it the web surfing. For that it's OK | 19:19 |
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| maddler | yep... mail client is bad... that's true... | 19:19 |
| Setok | if it had skype then I could use it for talking too | 19:19 |
| maddler | but I *so* geek that I was already using ssh->mutt->imap | 19:19 |
| maddler | :) | 19:19 |
| Tak | almost all of the mom-type end users I know use webmail anyway | 19:19 |
| Setok | I was surprised you can't even take a snapshot with the camera .. or did I miss something? | 19:19 |
| Tak | only geeks use an actual mail client anymore | 19:20 |
| Setok | professionals use real mail clients as well | 19:20 |
| maddler | Setok: I've got cameras everywhere else... | 19:20 |
| Setok | which would be another potential n800 audience, but not yet.. | 19:20 |
| maddler | with phone sporting 3megapixels cameras... | 19:20 |
| Setok | maddler: actually, I've got a backup phone since my RAZR broke so I don't :) | 19:20 |
| maddler | I really don't need one more camera... | 19:20 |
| Setok | well, it has a camera | 19:21 |
| Setok | wouldn't think it too difficult to add a snapshot menu option somewhere | 19:21 |
| * keesj just swichted to wmii + screen + irssi in the last month (it was kde + xchat ) | 19:21 | |
| maddler | but the you would start complaining about picture quality... :) | 19:21 |
| Setok | nah, I wouldn't actually :) | 19:21 |
| keesj | I feel so geeky | 19:21 |
| Tak | meh, a "professional's" mail client would have to support exchange | 19:21 |
| Setok | I don't really care much about phone camera quality | 19:21 |
| Setok | I have a digi camera for proper pics | 19:22 |
| Tak | they're better off doing OWA | 19:22 |
| Setok | tak: true. well, depending on the corp, but yeah | 19:22 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | is it true webcam on N800 works only if you call another N800 user? | 19:22 |
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| maddler | Setok: maybe not you... but many people would start complaining... that's sure.. | 19:22 |
| Tak | sbaturzioAtWork: I think there's a winclient as well | 19:22 |
| Setok | maddler: sure | 19:23 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | Tak: with jabber o gtalk protocol? | 19:23 |
| maddler | hey... there is a camera... I can take pictures... but they sucks... why didn'd they provided a better camera? | 19:23 |
| Setok | does the camera have an API that can be used? | 19:23 |
| maddler | :) | 19:23 |
| Jaffa | Setok: Not taking pictures is *exactly* what Nokia should have done. There have already been quick proof of concept apps to take snaps, and there's a garage project to take pictures/record video. | 19:23 |
| mgedmin | Setok: v4l | 19:23 |
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| Disconnect | Jaffa: not taking pictures is exactly what they should have done.....because the camera is trash ;) | 19:24 |
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| Setok | if there is a proper API then that's good | 19:24 |
| Disconnect | Setok: standard video4linux | 19:24 |
| maddler | taking pictures is *not* N800 job... | 19:24 |
| Setok | ok | 19:24 |
| Tak | I'm not exactly sure what possessed the addition of a webcam anyway | 19:24 |
| Setok | maddler: I'd argue it's not a phone's job ;-) | 19:24 |
| Disconnect | (and i'd say that the effort being expended on pic/video apps would be better applied to other tasks) | 19:24 |
| Setok | but fun for the odd drunk snapshot | 19:24 |
| maddler | I mean... yes... I'd like an everything device as well... but... | 19:25 |
| Disconnect | Tak: photo-blogging. | 19:25 |
| Tak | seems like an odd addition to the existing hw set | 19:25 |
| maddler | you can't have everything... | 19:25 |
| Setok | well, I guess some video conference | 19:25 |
| Setok | never done it myself | 19:25 |
| Jaffa | Disconnect: that too :) | 19:25 |
| maddler | Setok: in fact I have an E61, and I'm happy :) | 19:25 |
| Jaffa | Disconnect: I'm happy there are more devs, what they work on is up to them IMHO | 19:26 |
| maddler | I mean... I'm very satisfied of what N800 does... | 19:26 |
| maddler | more than satisfied... | 19:26 |
| Setok | are there any calendar style applications which would sync neatly with a mac? | 19:26 |
| Setok | OK, I guess I could go out to have a look, of course | 19:27 |
| maddler | yes... ther could be more... but then ther could have been more than more... :) | 19:27 |
| maddler | and so on... | 19:27 |
| Tak | dates uses ical format, and supports...?opensync? | 19:27 |
| Disconnect | is it more devs (eg devs who are just doing this) or is it devs who would have been doing something else getting side-tracked? if the former, its still a net loss for the platform because they'll wander off after that app (or they'd have done it anyway, regardless of nokia's app) and if the latter, its a distraction | 19:27 |
| Setok | if I could set it up to sync the calendar and contacts with my mac. maybe bookmarks too, then I'd be getting somewhere :) | 19:27 |
| Setok | oh, and replace the mail program :) | 19:27 |
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| keesj | Setok: I think of it like a network client , I use gmail and stuff like that, I don't even need sync, and google calendar sends me sms message when I have an apointment | 19:29 |
| Setok | any idea when the n800 navi package is coming out? that is the one thing I'm most interested in atm | 19:29 |
| Setok | keesj: that might fit your usage patterns, but not mine :) | 19:29 |
| Jaffa | Disconnect: I think that's too simplistic. More apps is better advertising, even if many of them are trivial; new devs will stay and do new things with their devices often; existing devs can't be tied down to work on what we'd like ;-) | 19:30 |
| keesj | Setok: I have only been hacking on the device , the n800 thumbpad is so much better that I really started using it. | 19:31 |
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| Andy80 | hi | 19:32 |
| Setok | keesj: I briefly tried the thumbpad and didn't seem too pad | 19:33 |
| Setok | bad | 19:33 |
| keesj | Anyway , I think you made plenty of valid points :p | 19:33 |
| maddler | fg 11 | 19:33 |
| maddler | wops | 19:34 |
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| bedboi | that's a frequently asked question :) | 19:35 |
| maddler | nice... vista has been just released and Mirco$oft already working to fix "high impact issues" | 19:36 |
| maddler | hehe | 19:36 |
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| sbaturzioAtWork | how many calendar/todo web-application are ready for N800? | 19:40 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | things like Google calendar, I mean | 19:40 |
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| elpaso | hello! | 19:41 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | elpaso: Ciao | 19:41 |
| maddler | hey elpaso | 19:41 |
| maddler | :D | 19:41 |
| elpaso | Ciao | 19:41 |
| elpaso | I've just got my 800!!! | 19:41 |
| * maddler invites all *.it to #maemo-it :) | 19:41 | |
| maddler | elpaso: GREAT!!! | 19:41 |
| Tak | is there really a necessity for a maemo-it channel? | 19:42 |
| elpaso | I've a problem with red pill and so... | 19:42 |
| elpaso | I'm trying to install my maemo-stars | 19:42 |
| sbaturzioAtWork | Tak: mah....italians are strange people ;-) they need to "hear" their language ;-) | 19:42 |
| c0ffee | and paste colours | 19:42 |
| c0ffee | and use scripts | 19:42 |
| * c0ffee ducks | 19:42 | |
| keesj | I recieved this email from jbenchmark I think it contains interesting figures about arm and pda like devices Feature-rich phones, including smartphones, is by far the fastest growing mobile handset segment. Feature-rich phones, including smartphones, is by far the fastest growing mobile handset segment. Informa Telecoms & Media expects sales of these devices to reach 55 percent of total handset sales by the end of 2007. http://box.mmapps | 19:42 |
| elpaso | It needs libglade... | 19:43 |
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| elpaso | so I've added all repos and apt-cache search glade returns the lib correctly | 19:43 |
| bedboi | c0ffee: talk for yourself :) | 19:43 |
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| bedboi | never used a script or colors, and i'm still Italian as pizza | 19:44 |
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| c0ffee | hummm, pizza | 19:44 |
| c0ffee | good idea | 19:44 |
| Tak | I thought pizza was american ;-) | 19:44 |
| elpaso | but the app manager does'nt install it automatically... | 19:44 |
| Tak | at least, the way americans make it | 19:44 |
| elpaso | why?? | 19:44 |
| keesj | elpaso: I would love to try to mud it , but it is a bad mud day here | 19:45 |
| c0ffee | dripping from fat you mean, tak? :) | 19:45 |
| bedboi | Tak: you should not swear | 19:46 |
| bedboi | really, | 19:46 |
| kulve | Setok: Q1 | 19:48 |
| kulve | Setok: and you comments are all way off :) | 19:48 |
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| kulve | I hope nobody here bought the thing because of the software it has, but because of the software you (make and) put there :) | 19:49 |
| kulve | +can | 19:49 |
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| Tak | kulve: that's why I did | 19:50 |
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| kulve | Setok: and both my mom and uncle had the 770 and they used the builtin sw happily (paying bills, surfing web, making sip calls with gizmo, gps) | 19:50 |
| maddler | kulve: I agree with you... | 19:50 |
| kulve | the toy value would be even more (much more) better, if it had the drivers for the 3d chip. At least TI's reference omap2 should includ it | 19:51 |
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| Tak | agreed | 19:52 |
| keesj | elpaso , it is installed on the sdk and this is what happens on my n800 http://paste-it.net/1136/raw/ | 19:52 |
| kulve | Setok: but I do agree, that since Nokia did put some sw there, they should at least work.. | 19:52 |
| keesj | I would also like a thumb friendly abd slik gui | 19:53 |
| elpaso | Yes, it works when installed by hand or in redpill mode, but it doesn't installa automatically | 19:53 |
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| Tak | yeah, thumb friendliness is a big thing | 19:53 |
| Tak | I prefer to never use the stylus | 19:53 |
| * maddler goes home | 19:53 | |
| keesj | Tak: how to you clean the screen? | 19:54 |
| Tak | I tend to just wipe it off with something soft, like a tshirt | 19:54 |
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| tzz | alcohol wipes are very good for cleaning computer screens, including the N800. | 19:57 |
| tigert | my shirt sleeve works nicely | 19:57 |
| tzz | I use them for my glasses, so I buy a box of 500 for $10 or so. | 19:57 |
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| Tak | I'm nervous about using any kind of chemical wipes on the screen | 19:58 |
| tigert | i use the thumb kbd, so its no use trying to keep it too clean. i just wipe out worst crap :) | 19:58 |
| tzz | cotton is not very good, it leaves threads. Plus, it's often a blend with polyester, which is just crappy. | 19:58 |
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| kulve | I'm not sure if alcohol etc is good for clearing lcd displays.. | 19:58 |
| tzz | alcohol wipes are not "chemicals" unless you mean the term as a chemist would. | 19:58 |
| tzz | they are harmless. I promise. The "recommended use" on the box includes LCDs. | 19:59 |
| kulve | ok :) | 19:59 |
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| tzz | more than anything, it helps with thumbprints, which are basically fat. Alcohol dissolves fat, unlike cotton, which just absorbs and smudges. | 20:00 |
| tzz | OK, enough about that :) I have a meeting in 2 minutes... | 20:01 |
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| keesj | thanks | 20:01 |
| Tak | absorbs is fine with me ;-) | 20:01 |
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| garrett | howdy, everyone! | 21:15 |
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| tigert | hi garrett :) | 21:18 |
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| keesj | Hi | 21:31 |
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| tigert | nice. maemo mapper does work fine on n800 | 22:03 |
| tigert | just add the 2.0 repo and install with app installer it seems | 22:04 |
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| nelson | 2.0 repo? | 22:13 |
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| sbaturzio | Aloha! | 22:14 |
| Paavo | keesj: Microfiber cloth is by far best for cleaning displays. | 22:15 |
| keesj | Yo | 22:17 |
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| obi | what are the recommended CFLAGS for the 770? | 22:24 |
| koen|gprs | heh | 22:25 |
| koen|gprs | the "won't charge" infoprint is cute | 22:26 |
| dwd | obi: You could try these: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/gcc.html | 22:26 |
| * koen|gprs hates nokia "chargers" | 22:26 | |
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| obi | thanks, quite helpful | 22:27 |
| dwd | obi: I think there was a discussion about floating point stuff on the maemo-dev list recently, but that concerns the N800 - for 770, I think you can pretty well use whatever suits. | 22:28 |
| keesj | wasn't qt supposed to be gpl? | 22:44 |
| mgedmin | keesj: it's dual-licenced: gpl and some sort of commercial licence that you have to pay $$ for | 22:44 |
| keesj | I am trying to downloaded it from the website http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/licensesbut I don't see a gpl version | 22:46 |
| dwd | keesj: IIRC, not all ports are GPL. | 22:46 |
| keesj | even the windows one I have hear | 22:46 |
| keesj | heard | 22:46 |
| mgedmin | gtk+ is prettier anyway | 22:46 |
| keesj | if there is one thing I don't like about gtk then it is the look | 22:47 |
| dwd | keesj: That's pretty redefinable, though. | 22:49 |
| mgedmin | heh, tastes differ | 22:50 |
| mgedmin | I too dislike the unthemed look of bare gtk+ | 22:50 |
| keesj | The cairo thing really sound right. | 22:50 |
| dwd | *sigh* Okay, "import gtk" in python2.5 in Bora scratchbox fails. This is going to prove pretty rticky to develop with. | 22:50 |
| keesj | I like evas | 22:51 |
| keesj | dwd :( | 22:51 |
| c0ffee | dwd, did you install all 2.5 gtk packages? | 22:51 |
| dwd | c0ffee: Well - I'd assume it has all the ones needed to load gtk. | 22:52 |
| dwd | c0ffee: I mean, it's got python2.5-gtk. And import gtk doesn't fail with an ImportError, but a NameError. | 22:52 |
| mgedmin | what's the name it errors about? | 22:53 |
| dwd | mgedmin: _gtk | 22:53 |
| dwd | mgedmin: Which, frankly, does not bode well. | 22:53 |
| dwd | Works on the device. | 22:53 |
| mgedmin | smells like a broken package :/ | 22:53 |
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| mgedmin | oh, I don't even have python 2.4 in my scratchbox | 22:55 |
| mgedmin | only 2.3 | 22:55 |
| dwd | mgedmin: Python2.3 ships with scratchbox. 2.5 is current Maemo, 2.4 was the original. | 22:55 |
| luck | dwd, did you export DISPLAY variable? | 22:55 |
| mgedmin | which repository? extras? | 22:55 |
| dwd | luck: Erm, yes. | 22:55 |
| dwd | mgedmin: repo.maemo.org/extras/ bora free non-free | 22:56 |
| dwd | mgedmin: (Obviously with the hostname in full, but I'm too lazy.) | 22:56 |
| mgedmin | I'm lazy too, that's why I copied and pasted the existing line and didn't even look at the hostname ;) | 22:57 |
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| tzz | damn it. I am trying to run Comix to read .CBR/.CBZ files, but it requires GTK 2.8.x and Maemo only has 2.6.x. | 23:02 |
| tzz | I may have to play with Obscura instead, since I don't know Python well, so it's easier to add CBR/CBZ support to Obscura. | 23:02 |
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| tzz | the PyGTK bindings are fine, though, and the Python Image Library installed fine | 23:03 |
| keesj | I am looking at the web-sortcut code, it seams like a lot of code for a single button | 23:04 |
| tzz | so other than the GTK version it could run fine. Argh. | 23:04 |
| keesj | an what is "hildon-home-image-viewer" ? | 23:05 |
| Tak | what in particular is incompatible in comix with gtk 2.6 ? | 23:05 |
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| keesj | anyway it is the first public home applet code ! | 23:06 |
| etrunko | tzz: try evince | 23:06 |
| tzz | Tak: I'm looking through it right now. To start: AttributeError: 'gtk.FileChooserDialog' object has no attribute 'set_do_overwrite_confirmation' | 23:07 |
| tzz | etrunko: thanks, I will | 23:07 |
| Tak | that one should be extraneous | 23:07 |
| tzz | Tak: like I said, I don't know Python well... Evince and Obscura look like better choices since they are Hildonized already anyhow. | 23:10 |
| * Tak nods | 23:10 | |
| Tak | I definitely empathize with wanting to avoid python ;-) | 23:10 |
| tzz | Tak: if you want to take a look, grab it from http://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/comix/comix-3.6.2.tar.gz | 23:10 |
| tzz | well I don't mind learning Python, I'm just not anywhere near good at it. I'd definitely rather do PyGTK than straight GTK in C, that's u-g-l-y | 23:11 |
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| koos_ | why doesn't signal a GtkFixed a configure-event? (or how to get resize events now) | 23:20 |
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| __smoke | evening, right place to pluck a question about python2.5 in n800 tablet ? | 23:28 |
| etrunko | __smoke: shot it | 23:28 |
| etrunko | shoot | 23:28 |
| __smoke | shooting, i got loads of problems with the basic udp servers...like ThreadingUDPServer dont seem to work at all, allmost | 23:29 |
| __smoke | say, i run a small server from xterm, it runs sure but hardly ever receives the data i send it, most of the data i send seems to go to dev/null | 23:30 |
| __smoke | it's just a book example ThreadingUDPServer implementation, hardly any code in it | 23:30 |
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| __smoke | one thing too..it usually receives the first packet i send and then goes deaf...and the n800 stops responding to ping at the same time (i can still browse the web on it etc)...i'm starting to think leprechauns are at work here | 23:32 |
| etrunko | __smoke: could you paste your code somewhere? (like http://pastebin.ca) | 23:33 |
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| __smoke | allright, lemme see how that works | 23:33 |
| pbrook | __smoke: Do other incoming connections work? | 23:34 |
| __smoke | hmm, dont know, not much anything else to try it with atm | 23:34 |
| pbrook | i.e. are sure it's a problem with you application, not the network | 23:34 |
| pbrook | My n800 seems to effectively turn the wireless off a second after transmitting a packet. | 23:35 |
| __smoke | i'm totally unsure where the prob is, but the application is dead simple....http://pastebin.ca/336199 | 23:36 |
| pbrook | So for normal outgoing connections where the remote machine responds fairly promptly it's fine. If there's a significant delay or for communication initiated by extarnal machines then packets seem to get blackholed. | 23:36 |
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| __smoke | this was prettymuch one way test just | 23:37 |
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| __smoke | ext machine sends poop, n800 receives | 23:37 |
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| pbrook | RIght, that's the same situation where my n800 is dropping all the packets. | 23:37 |
| __smoke | yeah | 23:38 |
| maddler | Hey all | 23:38 |
| __smoke | allright, its not me then, it's the device | 23:38 |
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| __smoke | or, python implementation on it | 23:38 |
| __smoke | or leprechauns on it | 23:38 |
| Tak | python was originally devised by leprechauns as a way to punish the Big Folk | 23:39 |
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| __smoke | definatly, still like it though, lovely syntax :) | 23:40 |
| aCiDBaSe | Tak: why you don't stop to talk about Python? If you don't like it just don't use it... | 23:41 |
| __smoke | pbrook, was your problem with a python app too, or should i go and try with c ? | 23:41 |
| Tak | aCiDBaSe: as you wish | 23:41 |
| aCiDBaSe | thanks | 23:41 |
| pbrook | __smoke: My problems are not specific to a particular application, it effecte everything, including opera. | 23:42 |
| __smoke | allright, opera seems to work allright on my tablet, RSS feeds too and so on...atleast nothing obvious on enything else | 23:43 |
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| pbrook | Well, most things work ok because 1000s is a relatively long time comparted to average internet latencies. | 23:43 |
| pbrook | er, I mean 1000ms | 23:44 |
| __smoke | yep, there'n there | 23:44 |
| __smoke | well, lol, got it working by pumping out data to a "random" local port on receive handler | 23:46 |
| __smoke | quite not ideal, but seems to do it | 23:47 |
| pbrook | That's consistent with what I'm seeing. | 23:47 |
| pbrook | If I ping the machie every 1s that's sufficient to keep it alive. | 23:47 |
| __smoke | yeh, with a intentional, longish delay i can make the problem reappear | 23:47 |
| __smoke | rather inconvinient, but now i knwo | 23:48 |
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| * maddler finally found what was wrong with gizmo! | 23:51 | |
| maddler | it doesn't like usb0! | 23:52 |
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| svu | is there bundled gpodder for maemo? | 23:56 |
| maddler | you mean as default application? | 23:59 |
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