IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-01-31

JaffaYay! Garage has accepted my GPG key. First MUD-built packages uploaded tomorrow morning :)00:02
svuis there xterm for n800 anywhere? Or should I just use the build for 770?00:06
keesjcheck the maemo hackers xterm00:07
svukeesj, where?00:11
VeggenJaffa: a list of what we can expect to play with? ;) Something interesting?00:13
VReJaffa: Maybe you could add debians dosfstools to MUD.. maemo's package seems to be missing fsck.vfat for fixing corrupted memorycards00:14
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lardmanah-ha, found the problem - forgot to symlink*00:16
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JaffaVRe: Patches welcome ( ;-)00:29
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lardmanWell using vfp ogg vorbis decoding takes something like 20-30% cpu00:32
lardmanI can't see much advantage to using vorbis in this case (over tremor)00:33
keesjxterm also grabs urls and can open them in opera. what a nice feature00:35
sp3000Jaffa: nit:     <copyright>(gpl|lgpl|artistic|bsd</copyright> is missing a )00:35
Jaffasp3000: entirely accurate, I'll fix shortly00:36
JaffaFixed, thanks for pointing it out.00:38
VeggenJaffa: not much revolutionary there,but then again mud-builder is meant for the non-revolutonary packages, right?00:41
Veggenvim, I'll look forward to :)00:41
JaffaVeggen: indeed :)00:41
Veggenirssi, perhaps.00:41
Veggennetdate is also useful enough, to keep time in sync.00:42
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* mitcheloc is sad00:47
mitchelocin a few minutes i'm heading over to compusa to return my n80000:47
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kkitowho is the responsable to port the SDL-gfx to maemo?00:48
mitchelocthe camera is defective, apparently nokia is aware of this and is taking RMAs00:49
mitcheloci figure i'll just return it and wait a bit, i might just go for a umpc instead00:49
mitcheloci'm mostly disappointed at the lack of A2DP on the device00:49
||cwI'm holding out for a openmoko device00:49
mitchelocI'm not familiar with that?00:50
||cwI don't browse much on my 770, so I think the neo1973 would do what i need, and replace my 212500:50
||cwlinux based cell phone that's fully open, even the drivers00:51
||cwno wifi in the first version though00:51
mitcheloci looked up a screen shot, not the most attractive is it00:51
||cwbut being linux, PAN will be easier than with windows mobile00:51
mitchelocthe umpc looks to be what i want, that or an iPhone if only it was an open platform... :(00:51
||cwthose are fully different things00:52
Jaffakeesj: I notice the patch to xmoto's debian/control has a space in the depends line ( - could this be causing the problems you saw between versions? Does it work better as "..., lua, libsdl-gfx" ?00:52
||cwwell, but then the iPhone and n800 are too00:52
mitchelocthe iphone is a simliar in structure to the n800, just a bit smaller00:53
mitchelocoh and the addition of a gsm radio00:53
kkitohas iphone a maemo or another development plataform?00:53
mitchelocnot that i know of, thats why i said "if only it was an open platform"00:54
JaffaNope, it's locked down: you can use XCode to submit things to Apple to ship00:54
kkitowell, n800 isnt open at all...00:55
Jaffakkito: "isn't open at all" is a bit strong. It's a lot more open than any Symbian, Windows Mobile or Apple device.00:55
mitchelockkito: i'm confused, are you being sarcastic?00:55
mitchelocthe n800 is pretty damn open, but it's missing a lot of standard functionality00:56
kkitoJaffa, yes, but some drivers are closed, and some hw is not supported under linux and there are no free specs to develop for it00:56
Disconnectkkito: "no free specs" .. like the entire devkit/sdk?00:56
Jaffakkito: Err, there's no N800 hardware which is not supported under Linux, since the N800 is running Linux and all its hardware works (by definition). Yes, some drivers are closed.00:56
kkitoDisconnect, there are no specs to develop a powervr mbx driver for example00:57
trenkakkito: you are strong to build full free hardware platform?00:57
Jaffakkito: or Jazelle, either. But then those chips would never be used in a fully open device either, so you're not losing anything AFAICS00:57
trenkakkito: I mean with all features of omap2420 and n80000:58
kkitoJaffa, anyways there are no closed drivers for them too00:58
Jaffakkito: exactly, so pretend they don't exist. It's not like RMS is going to come along and stomp all over you for using them ;-)00:59
trenkaso for you it's better to just cut it out00:59
trenkaunderstand, doctors cannot help this case00:59
Jaffa...which if TI provide all as part of the SoC might be tricky ;)00:59
trenkathere are lots of cross-licensed and cross-patented things there01:00
trenkathis is a real hardware world01:01
trenkafor ati, nvidia the same01:01
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svukeesj, sorry for the lame question. I just did not know about thanks01:02
maddlerIT'S MY BIRTHDAY!!!01:03
Jaffamaddler: happy birthday!01:03
trenkamaddler: we are sorry01:03
maddlerthank you! :DD01:03
maddlertrenka: bastard! :DDD01:03
kkitoJaffa, do you know if nokia are going to support powervr and IVA ? Will be drivers and libraries (closed ones) in a near future?01:04
|tbb|happy birthday dude01:04
maddlertbb :)01:04
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* maddler handles some cold beer to the channel!!!01:04
Jaffakkito: no idea. I'd've thought they'd've been supported already if there were plans to do so; but that's an entirely uneducated guess.01:05
* |tbb| takes one01:05
trenkaalmost nobody know01:05
trenkaknows :)01:05
|tbb|ive installed gpe calender and it tooks me automaticly 2 reboot :/01:06
nomismaddler: happy birthday.01:06
jcml_maddler: happy b'day - 21 years young? ;-)01:06
sp3000|tbb|: did you perchance add the desktop applet before first run?01:07
|tbb|when i try to add the gpe calendar applet01:07
|tbb|known bug?01:07
nomisok. I feel dumb now.01:07
nomisThe ROUND macro I forgot to define turned into an unresolved symbol and for some reason the compiler did not complain, but the hildon desktop of course could not load the .so file...01:08
sp3000|tbb|: ^01:08
nomisthat was like three hours debugging.01:09
myren_kkito, powervr?  what does nokia have anything to do with powervr?01:09
maddlerjcml_: a little more... 35 :D01:11
maddlerok... and now let's flash N800! :D01:11
* jcml_ avoids mentioning
kkitomyren_,? They sell the n800 with a powervr... and with linux... then if nokia wants powervr support under linux, they can contact to TI or powerVr for the specs to developn one, or pay to montavista for example to do the job01:12
maddlerlogan's run!!!01:14
maddlerdamn... flashing N800 is *FAST*!01:15
Disconnectmaddler: usb201:15
maddlersomething wrong here!!!01:16
|tbb|yeah i was feeling the true01:16
Disconnectok its fast, its not FAST.. still takes some time01:16
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maddlera messed Nokia logo was shown at 1st run...01:16
Jaffamaddler: more problems again with maemoppl serving pages?01:17
maddlerJaffa: there was any problem? :O01:17
Jaffamaddler: Ah no, it *really* doesn't like it when you miss out the "www." - serves an empty page01:17
maddlerfixin' it...01:17
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andreasnis there a easy way to figure out what ip-adress my 770-device has?01:18
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maddlerI should also make work...01:19
Jaffaandreasn: 3 options: 1) ifconfig in XTerm, 2) Connection Manager > Internet Connection > IP address; 3) install the iphome home screen applet01:19
Jaffamaddler: yeah, that'd be very good.01:20
myren_kkito: n800 has a friggin powervr?  i thought powervr was all 3d chipsets01:20
maddlerJaffa: well... it's on my agenda...01:20
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kkitomyren_, OMAP2420 - 330 MHz ARM11 + 220 MHz C55x DSP + PowerVR MBX 2D/3D Graphics Accelerator + IVA01:21
andreasnJaffa: found it, thanks!01:21
myren_jeezus.  i thought the OMAP2420 opengl optimization was just a couple accelerated vector processing instructions01:23
maddlerkkito: are you .it?01:23
myren_i had no idea they had anything resembling a graphics accelerator01:23
maddleror was it an .it site?01:23
myren_what is the IVA?01:23
maddlerIVA is italian for VAT01:23
maddlerand being italian... that sucks!01:24
kkitoIVA (Imaging and Video Accelerator).01:24
kkitomaddler, .it?01:24
maddlerdoh... sorry... :)01:24
maddlerwas confused...01:24
maddlerthought you were talking about prices... :D01:24
kkitoThe iva is the chip that uses the n93i for realtime mpeg video encoding at 640x48001:24
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kkitoand actually, the mediaplayer from n800 is using the 4 ears old (ore more) c55x dsp for video decoding.... (i think...)01:25
andreasnJaffa: I get a "No route to host" when I try to ssh to my 770 device, am I missing some package?01:25
lle2kkito: it's doing most of it on arm1101:25
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kkitolle2, sure?01:26
lle2kkito: and a little colorspace conversion on the external fb chip01:26
lle2kkito: yeah, quite.01:26
Jaffaandreasn: nope, try making a connection from the 770 to the box you're trying to SSH from (e.g. ssh, telnet, ping or even web browser). Doesn't have to work, just ensures everything knows the routing tables.01:27
kkitolle2, oh01:27
myren_i thought the video player used gstreamer and gstreamer had a DSP plugin to do a lot of decoding01:27
myren_thats suprising news to me01:27
lle2on 770 the dsp did video decoding01:28
myren_lle2, is source available for any of that?01:28
lle2myren_: no, the codecs are not public01:29
kkitomyren_, there are free c55x mpeg implementations on the net01:29
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andreasnJaffa: entering my laptops ip into the web browser gives me "Could not connect to remote server"01:29
andreasnJaffa: I totally suck at these things :)01:30
myren_kkito: sweet.  i want to do some realtime fft stuff with audio signals.  having some reference code that uses the c55 would be most handy.01:30
Jaffaandreasn: your 770 is connected to the right wlan and is otherwise OK?01:30
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andreasnJaffa: yes, I can browse the web and stuff01:31
lardmann800 vfp ogg stuff here for anyone who's interested:
Jaffaandreasn: hmm, difficult to say then.01:31
andreasnJaffa: might be my router that is configured weird01:31
andreasnJaffa: thanks for the help anyway01:32
lardmannight all01:32
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lle2kkito: the omap co-processors are a real pain in the ass to use, they don't fit into the sw arch in any sensible way, so either you create a totally nasty hack or have sub-optimal implementation01:32
lle2kkito: in most cases just forgetting them is easiest and produces better results than the sub-optimal solution that didn't entirely screw everything01:34
myren_lle2: :(01:34
kkitolle2, what omap coprocessors?01:34
lle2the iva and the dsp01:34
c0ffeethat's what you get for using all the fancy frameworks01:34
myren_lle2, whats the availability of documentation & support?01:34
c0ffeeinstead of good old asm01:34
Jaffamaddler: did you get USB host working on your N800? I thought you said you did, but can't find it in the logs01:34
JaffaAha, found it. You did say it :)01:35
lle2c0ffee: yeah, it wouldn't be a problem at all if we didn't have any OS to get in our way ;)01:35
kkitolle2, it is not possible to a library with basic graphical operations that uses the IVA? an then developers use it for speed his multimedia apps01:35
lle2kkito: you easily end up with something that needs to make an extra copy or two of the data01:35
lle2kkito: poof, there went your speed-up01:36
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svugamn. n800 gone into endless reboot loop. what could this be??01:36
lle2kkito: the omap is totally bottlenecked by memory bandwidth01:37
myren_sdr, not ddr?01:37
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maddlerJaffa: no... I was talking about USB networking...01:38
Jaffaah, of course.01:38
lle2myren_: ddr but that doesn't solve the problem :)01:38
myren_that is extensively weird01:38
maddlerthat's nice... talk and whatever working while connected via USB @office...01:38
lle2one of the causes for all the headaches is the external fb01:39
maddlerwere I _cannot_ even think to switch wi-fi on...01:39
lle2nobody but the ARM11 can write to it, if I'm not mistaken01:39
lle2so you end up having to make the roundtrip01:39
myren_external fb + onboard powervr?  bogus.01:39
lle2there's not enough sram on omap to hold the fb01:40
myren_ahh right01:40
lle2it would end up sitting in system memory, and then the lcd would refresh it 50+ times per second from thee01:40
lle2which would be pretty bad for everything01:40
lle2at least with 770 it would not have worked at all01:41
lle2n800 is not that much faster01:41
myren_the powervr thing is really tripping me out01:42
myren_you cant blit because theres on onboard fb01:42
myren_if its not a rasterizer01:42
myren_wtf is it01:42
myren_*no onboard fb01:43
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lle2the powervr might be usable in pixel doubled mode01:44
myren_that would require non-insignificant sram01:44
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lle2yeah, but it would fit01:44
lle2there's 640kB of sram01:44
myren_ohh god01:44
lle2it's not really used for anything01:44
eeejaywould anyone like to try a video chat?01:45
myren_oh.  i assumed it was used for L2 cache or something01:45
myren_if its free tahts a different story01:45
lle2no, it's just sitting there, contemplating the uselessness of life01:45
* myren_ is frigging dying for hte programmers manual on the 242001:45
lle2but don't get your hopes up on the powervr01:46
lle2that would require a licensing agreement01:46
maddlerhmmm... there is somthing wrong witg udhcp...01:46
myren_who owns powervr these days?  didnt some embedded company buy it off 3dlabs?01:47
maddlerthe udhcpc.script is being executed again and again...01:47
lle2myren_: I think it's called imagination technologies01:47
maddlerand this make dbus-daemon eat cpu...01:47
maddlergotta work it out...01:47
|tbb|maddler could it be thats the ground why kismet stop working sommetimes?01:48
maddlertbb... no...01:48
maddlerkismet is not supposed to be asking dhcp leases... :D01:49
|tbb|but it often stops working, iirc someone in kismet says something like that (dhcp related)01:50
|tbb|#kismet btw01:50
maddlerdunno... try changing you wlan config if you can...01:51
maddlerand give you N800 a fixed IP01:51
maddlerthat's first remedy01:51
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maddlerI'm trying to understand where the problem comes from...01:54
kkitolle2, then we are not going to see the powervr running in the n800?01:56
maddlerI'd also be happy to undertand why dropbear takes so long to start...01:58
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gpdanyone have any insider tips on Video cards -- i am about to buy a GeForce 8800GTS for $399 with $30 rebate -- slightly panicy02:03
myren_kkito: basically we'd have to find another project with powervr support and reverse engineer it into working02:03
myren_gpd: its an amazing vid card, but i'm a little worried it'll get outclassed in another 6 months02:04
myren_i bought a 7600GT to hold me over until ATI & nV both release new silicon.02:04
gpdmyren_: agreed.  I am also worried about this PC2 8000 RAM which seems EXPENSIVE at $340/2G02:04
myren_that seems exceedingly high to me02:05
myren_oh thats DDR1000 or something?02:05
gpdit is DDR2 100002:05
kkitomyren_, there are the project kallisti-os, that has a pseudo opengl implementation using the powervr from dreamcast...02:05
myren_kkito: thanks for the linkage.  i'll definately give it a good once over.  although i suspect the powervr will be signficantly different.02:06
myren_gpd: do you have any truly compelling reason for such highspeed ram?  games will be quite happy with a "mere DDR800"02:06
gpdmyren_: not really - you are probably right02:07
kkitomyren_, omap devices that runs montavista has powervr support02:07
* Jaffa beds.02:08
myren_kkito: i'm not really familiar with what montavista offers, but i've been under the impression theres very little available for download without an SDK purchase.02:08
myren_but the more projects with powervr the better02:08
gpdmyren_: do you think crucial or corsair or other [sorry # for offtopic!]02:09
myren_its a wonderful value02:12
gpdindeed -- DDR2 800 g.skill = $184!02:12
myren_very well made ram, usually overclocks past its rated spec fairly well, and the price is hard to beat02:12
myren_it was made buy a couple gamers who got sick of getting ripped off on ram02:13
gpdnice nice - thanks for the tip02:13
myren_my pleasure.02:13
gpdI am also known as 'G' - so perfect fit02:13
myren_the ram comes with stickers.  :)02:14
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nomisfor the curious:
nomisright now only an additional indicator for brightness/volume, but is supposed to evolve into something full featured.02:18
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maddlerI should definitely make a quick restore script...02:19
maddlerwhit patched system files, packages and so on02:20
nomisis there a simple way to get screenshots from the N800? I forgot how I did it on the 770.02:21
maddlerosso statusbar cpu monitor02:21
maddlersupposed to be for 770 but working pretty well on 80002:22
maddlerthumb kbd rocks02:22
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gpdmyren_: Timing: 4-4-3-5 $239 or Timing: 4-4-4-12 $215 ???02:26
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Jaffanomis: ssh in and run osso-screenshot-tool02:34
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* Jaffa actually beds now.02:35
nomisJaffa: I don't see that from Xterm. Is it part of the default installation?02:35
nomisJaffa: night.02:35
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Texratanyone here?03:30
MilhouseNope :(03:31
Texratjust you and me Mil?03:31
Milhouselooks like it! pretty late over here!!03:31
Texratlast night it was just me and rofltosh :(03:31
Milhouseyou just knocking off?03:31
Texratoh crap-- you in UK?03:31
Milhouseyep - 01:3103:31
TexratI'm in US... 7:3203:32
TexratI guess I'm the rare one...lol03:32
Milhousejust a quick scan of ITT then heading off03:32
Texratok, later03:32
MilhouseQ for you: What's going on with these reboot loops - I take it Nokia are aware?03:32
Texratoh yes they know, but I'm...brace yourself... out of the loop03:32
Texratcome next week I no longer have official involvement :(03:33
Texratno :(03:33
Milhouseno way - at all?03:33
Texratproduct is going to Mexico... along with my job03:33
Milhousesorry to hear that fella03:33
Milhouseyou moving on to another product?03:33
Texratstill hoping for smething03:33
Texratour plant is closing03:33
Texratzero US production03:34
shackanewwwwwwww, that SUCKS03:34
Milhousei'll keep my fingers crossed, I'm currently working out my garden leave myself (redundancy)03:34
shackansorry to hear that03:34
Texratah.  thanks03:34
Texratwe were led to believe the plant had a future, but that was just to keep us motivated03:35
Texratlast day is April 1303:35
Milhouseouch, now that does suck03:35
shackanwho's your employer?03:35
Texratyeah... but I blame US head of division, not corporate03:35
MilhouseNokia are supposed to be a good company to work for (though that might just be in Finland)03:36
Texratthey are great-- the US head is just an asshole03:36
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Texratexcuse me: arsehole :lol:03:36
MilhouseI hear you there - that's why I'm in the situation I'm in... I told my boss (in NY) he was an asshole (not in so many words, but he got the message)03:37
TexratI love my job, I love the products03:37
Texratgood for you03:37
Texrathope it works out for you Mil03:37
MilhouseI hope you get located somewhere within Nokia03:37
Texratthere is an office half hour away I'm trying to land at03:37
TexratI'm lobbying, networking, begging, you name it03:38
Texratselling my skills03:38
TexratI hoped the N800 program would find a further need for me but so far not yet03:39
MilhouseWho else is going to (almost) give us the inside scoop on the next Nokia Internet Tablet now???!!03:39
Texratgood luck03:39
Texratthey are not prepared03:39
Texratit's gonna get ugly03:39
Robot101Milhouse: what're these reboot loops you speak of?03:40
Texratyou have no idea how hard I worked on keeping bad N800s from getting out the door...03:40
myren_gpd: did you buy the ram?  4-4-3-5.... that must be a mistype.  4-4-3-15?03:40
Milhouserobot101: some unlucky users experience their devices rebooting repeatedly03:40
Robot101I just caught my device doing that, the only thing I changed today was installing osso-xterm and mediastreamer03:41
Texratxterm seems to be a common denominator03:41
Robot101on the upside, I have a jig so I can debug it tomorrow :)03:41
Texratgood deal03:41
TexratI really wish program would package an x terminal with the OS03:42
MilhouseTexrat: I appreciate all the effort you put in - but unfortunately I'm getting the impression the product was rushed to market, and I'm sure you probably said as much to "management"03:42
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TexratMilhouse: I did what I could with the time I had03:42
TexratI can't say more :x03:42
MilhouseAnd for that, we are grateful - I dread to think how much worse it could have been03:42
Texrat:shudders: you don't wanna know, and I can't say ;)03:43
TexratI felt I should have gotten a bonus out of it, but... oh well03:43
MilhouseRobot101 - I'm not sure what causes it, but there are at least a couple of thread about it on ITT. If you can't stop it from looping at reboot, try disabling the lifeguard-reset (details on ITT)03:43
myren_"you dont wanna know"03:43
Texratwell, the public rarely knows what doesn't ge let out03:44
Robot101Milhouse: that won't really help, it'll just wedge instead of looping then. :)03:44
myren_thats significantly different from the public not even wanting to know.03:44
myren_was there ever any discussion on licensing the powervr tech?03:44
Texratin fact it SHOULD be that way: internal QA and MFR should have inverse relationship03:44
Robot101Milhouse: I'm guessing something is upsetting maemo-af-desktop or the x server03:44
MilhouseRobot101 - some users have stated it helps get it through the boot03:44
myren_just curious whether it got batted around at all03:44
Robot101Milhouse: hmm... boggle.03:44
Robot101Milhouse: do they say that reflashing helps?03:45
TexratMyren: no idea03:45
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MilhouseTexrat - it does make me laugh sometimes at how Nokia attempt (and fail) to balance the open source mentality with the corporate secrecy03:45
Texratchange MFR to FFR, sorry03:45
TexratMilhouse: yeah, well, corporate politics...03:46
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MilhouseRobot101 - yes, sometimes, eventually but of course that resets the device to default so you should try disabling the lifeguard-reset as the first step then re-enable it once you've got a successful boot03:46
Texratthey want both worlds, and it's a fine line to walk03:46
Robot101Milhouse: how do you mean fail? they are balancing: the open source project exists and sells products, and there's also an open source community with some measure of nokia involvement.03:46
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Robot101Milhouse: this is a success, believe me.03:47
TexratRobot: a semi-success03:47
Texratstill needs polish03:47
Robot101Milhouse: compare to eg motorola's linux-based phones. do you see them running planets, svn repos, packages, any sdk...?03:47
Robot101Texrat: sure, learning process, but calling it a failure is very harsh.03:47
MilhouseAnd there's an internal bugzilla we don't have any access to, and the problems with the N800 are obvious but being covered up03:47
Texratwhere we came up short is not being as forthcoming as I think we should have been03:48
MilhouseIndeed - more openess would help03:48
Texratbut there's an executive layer that stifles that03:48
MilhouseRobot101 - I don't dispute that Nokia have gone out on a limb with the internet tablets and they should be praised for that, but they've kind of only gone half-way03:48
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Robot101Milhouse: the internal bugzilla is definitely a necessity, it contains the information about the future developments etc03:49
Texratagreed, hence let's use semi-success instead of failure03:49
Robot101Milhouse: the problem is that the internal developers don't spend enough time on the external bugzilla03:49
Robot101Milhouse: not that the internal one exists03:49
MilhouseI get the impression there's a small group within Nokia battling to do the right thing and being put in their place by the old guard03:49
Texratthe PHONE culture rules03:49
Texratwe are rebels03:49
MilhouseFuture developments can be protected in a public bugzilla - look at the Mozilla bugzilla, you don't get to see the security related bugs until they are made public. Same could apply to unannounced features/products03:50
TexratI need to find a way to convey that safely and properly on ITT03:50
Robot101Milhouse: right, but the exact mechanism doesn't ultimately matter. there will be things which people will never see. the main thing is including publically submitted bugs into the internal QA process.03:51
Texratit sounds like we are moving to consensus on the subject ;)03:51
MilhouseRobot101 - I'd say that the existence of the internal bugzilla demonstrates a lack of openness (sp?)03:51
Texrator not03:52
Robot101Milhouse: there are many reasons why the entire product development can't be conducted in the clear, contractual reasons, competitive reasons, IPR, all sorts.03:52
Milhouseon an open source project, which the N800 is by and large, a single public bugzilla could/should be used03:52
Texratyou both have equally valid points03:52
Milhouseand it's late :)03:53
Texratnot for me :p03:53
MilhouseI can see the closed source/contractual stuff should be witheld, but the open source stuff? nope.03:53
Milhousebah :)03:53
Robot101Milhouse: you need to balance this idealism with a modicom of reality, yes the public input could be better dealt with but that doesn't mean everything goes out in the open.03:53
Texrathere's the problem with the N800: it can't be 100% open source because it's a hardware/software combo03:53
Texratso again we tread a fine line03:54
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Texratnow, divorce the device, and Milhouse is 100% on target03:54
Texratbut we can't03:54
Texratcan't say, but I'm betting never03:54
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Milhouseprobably right - my guess is nokia need to maintain some sort of hold on the platform03:55
Robot101Milhouse: more like: I don't think Nokia would spend much time on developing the software if they weren't producing products.03:55
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Milhouserobot101: agreed03:55
Texratexactly.  People keep comparing tablet program to general linux efforts and that's an error03:55
Robot101so you can't just develop the platform in abstract, it needs to be driven by product requirements and hardware and as such needs to go hand in hand with internal (and hence not public) processes.03:55
Texratmost linux vendors/developers avoid hardware03:56
konfoowe do fine with hardware :)03:56
Texratyou know what I mean03:56
Robot101even the best linux-supporting hardware vendors have to draw the line at leaking their product details03:56
Milhousethis might well end up being Nokias biggest challenge. they certainly need to avoid the 770->N800 transition next time around03:56
Texratwholly agreed03:56
Texrateven management has acknowledged the hardware abstraction error03:57
Robot101intel doesn't provide specs or roadmaps for their graphics chips but they put out top quality X/kernel drivers for their chips from the 1st day they're available03:57
Texratgood analogy03:57
Robot101I was actually wondering during the N800 development cycle how far the core stuff had diverged from the 77003:57
konfoomilhouse seems to forget the other fact that employees are paid to do their job so yes they will spend time on internal bugzilla before external bugs. looks real good on the performance report.. 'yeah im sorry i didnt fix that bug cause i was piddling with this other bug here that a user sent me' 'oh what is the business case for fixing it.. ummmm'03:57
Texratthis isn't corporate gospel, but I'm *betting* that you won't see such an abrupt transition from here on out03:58
Texratkonfoo nailed it03:58
Milhousekonfoo - i'm simply saying that a public bugzilla could serve both parties equally well03:58
Milhousewhy have two when one will do?03:58
Texratyes, but his point is valid03:58
konfoowho is going to dedicate the time to it on the corporate side?03:58
Texratit comes down to resource budgeting and allocation03:58
Robot101Milhouse: why obsess over why you have one or two when that's nothing to do with it?03:58
Robot101Milhouse: far more developer time is put into the forthcoming product than the existing one03:59
Texratsee, there's where comparing this to traditional linux projects comes up short03:59
konfoosomeone has to go off and write a budget as a minimum.. its no conspiracy theory.. most corps just dont have the time or inclination. too busy chasing real fish instead of tire kickers03:59
Texratmaemo != ubuntu03:59
MilhouseA public tracker is a mainstay of most open source projects, this is an open source project yet the public tracker gets little attention. This is one of the few projects where this happened04:00
konfooyeah we have the same problem with our set top boxes04:00
Texratso knfoo you are in my boat ;)04:00
konfooyes, i have been for the last 3 companies ive worked at :)04:00
Texratcan't divorce the device from the OS04:00
Milhousei see no diff between an internal and public tracker, but obviously the latter allows more community involvement if and when nokia deem it permissible (through privileges etc.)04:00
konfooits really not that foreign anymore04:00
Milhousebut hey.. i'm not a nokia developer, just a member of the community :)04:01
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Texratseriously, the world Milhouse wnats to see would require Nokia to get completely out of OS and just serve up the device, like PC manufacturers...04:01
Texratnot meant as an insult mil04:02
konfoomilhouse im sure nokia people would agree with you to an extent but it just doesn't sound financially feasible at a minimum04:02
wasabi_I like my n770, have had it since it first came out, but I am pretty disappointed in it.04:02
wasabi_In terms of the success of third party apps anyways.04:02
wasabi_Nobody makes any. Just some simple ports of existing apps.04:02
wasabi_Except maemo mapper. It rocks. :)04:02
Robot101Milhouse: well, I think you should cut Nokia a bit more slack. the fact there's a and there are any nokians working on it is awesome, and they're working to improve stuff all the time, in an environment that's not always hospitable.04:02
konfoowasabi_: well there werent really options like python, mono, etc for the longest time on the 77004:03
Milhousetexrat/konfoo - i don't doubt it would be easy, but it jars a bit when nokia bang the open source drum and there is so little progress in the public bugzilla, it truly is a black hole at times but hey :)04:03
Texratwasabi: I don't think enough 770 devices were actually used to get the support you are looking for04:03
wasabi_I don't even really see that as the problem.04:03
konfooit always takes at least 1-2 generations of hardware for the hackers to catch up04:03
Robot101Milhouse: and as you've rightly perceived the internal priorities don't always match up with the community ones, so some people do get torn in different directions.04:03
wasabi_Lack of a public apt repository, or basic Debian development practices, imo, is what's done it04:03
wasabi_Ya know, people with upload privs heh04:03
wasabi_And some sort of actual community goal.04:03
TexratMilhouse: I agree with you in principle, but again: corporate politics kills the best of development intentions04:03
Milhouseunderstood :(04:04
Texratagreed wasabi04:04
Texrattrust me, I hate it (in this case) more than you :p04:04
Texrat(to mil)04:04
konfooyeah thats really the thing missing from the picture04:04
wasabi_Nobody can commit, and nobody can build the complete system on their own.04:04
wasabi_And nobody has access to the intentions of the developers.04:04
konfooyou have the garage, you have the new repo coming online, you have the wiki... where are the community areas to tie it together04:04
Texratwasabi, I would love to see a more cohesive community effort around the tablets04:05
konfooand i dont mean ITT04:05
wasabi_Texrat: I'd just prefer hildon get released as a plain ol' open source project, uploaded to Debian or Ubuntu, and then the firmware driven from that.04:05
Texrathell, if I had the resources, I'd start the effort myself04:05
wasabi_And the N guys can upload directly into Debian or Ubuntu.04:05
Robot101Texrat: they've just hired Quim Gil, he might be able to help make some of that happen04:05
wasabi_Or, take the Ubuntu route and establish a sync procedure.04:05
Robot101(coming from a GNOME background)04:05
Texratwasabi, that won't happen.  With a handset manufacturer firmware comes first04:05
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wasabi_There was a wee bit of talk by Carlos at UDS about getting an Ubuntu community port going.04:06
Texratthe linux community tends to "forget" Nokia is first and foremost a handset maker04:06
wasabi_And being able to install Ubuntu on the 770, with additional n700 specific packages.04:06
wasabi_That would be ideal imo.04:06
Texratthis linux thing is essentially new to us04:06
Texratremember, we bought into S6004:07
wasabi_If improvements to the core infrastructure that we all love, Debian, would sync to the n770.04:07
* Robot101 should put his laptop out of bed, and focus more on the sleeping04:07
Robot101'night folks04:07
wasabi_night. =)04:07
Texratkonfoo, did you ask for a 770 cover?04:07
Milhousenight Robot04:08
konfooTexrat: no.. but ill take an 800 cover if theres a new one out... ;)04:08
* konfoo whistles04:08
Texratlol.  ok, just checking.  I accidentally deleted some PMs04:08
MilhouseNeed. N800. Cover...! :) Any ETA for the Nokia N800 cover?04:08
Texratsorry, no 800 covers04:08
Texratout of that loop now04:09
wasabi_The N800 doesn't come with a cover?04:09
Milhouseah yes, sorry04:09
TexratI can't even get N800s for co-workers anymore04:09
Texratbut my kids got them for Christmas ;)04:09
konfoowasabi_: a little sleeve thing04:09
Texratbefore you guys :p04:09
wasabi_Texrat: dfw?04:09
wasabi_Me too. ;)04:09
MilhouseChristmas???!! Wow, did they come with NDAs?04:09
wasabi_konfoo: That sucks. I love the cover on the 77004:09
Texratlol Milhouse-- I lectured them04:09
konfoowasabi_: same here... the sleeve is annoying too04:10
wasabi_I think I'm going to skip the n80004:10
TexratI've been in product development their whole life so they understand this stuff04:10
wasabi_Until some compelling open source platform appears. :)04:10
konfoooh its definitely worth it04:10
konfoobut thats just mho :)04:10
wasabi_Texrat: You work on N?04:10
Texratguys, serious: that case logic case is very nice04:10
Texratyes wasabi, until April 1304:10
wasabi_Off 183?04:11
Texratno, Alliance, 17004:11
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Texrattrying to get relocated to 183 before I'm laid off04:11
wasabi_Being laid off?04:11
Texratour plant is dead04:12
konfoothat sux good luck04:12
wasabi_That sucks.04:12
Texratboss took us all to lunch today because morale is in the shitter04:12
wasabi_Whatcha do? :)04:12
TexratQA, programming at first but now quality engineer04:12
Texratyou gusy have me to thank for defects being as low as they are on N800 ;)04:13
MilhouseWas just gonna say, laying of N800 QA guys seems like the dumbest ever decision04:13
wasabi_heh. didn't know they did any maemo related antying in dfw04:13
wasabi_I would have applied here. ;)04:13
Texratthey don't, wasabi04:13
MilhouseDumber, in fact, than not putting a case on the N800... ;)04:13
Texratthanks Mil04:13
Texratmexico qa guys will pick it up04:14
Texratno experience tho04:14
Texratand they don't want my advice...04:14
jtrahey, new shisensho game is released
Texrato nice04:14
Texratgames are good04:14
jtranew version, that is04:14
Texratthat is very nice looking04:15
Texrattested on N800 yet?04:15
jtraTexrat: there is another one -
jtraTexrat: no, I don't have any04:15
Texratvery cool04:15
Texratyou have no idea how much I appreciate the game developers04:16
Texratyou guys will make or break these devices04:16
wasabi_I think a good email/pim client would go a long way towards that. ;004:16
Texrattrue, but games are IT04:16
wasabi_My company would jump to replace the smartphones/pocketpcs with a 770.04:16
wasabi_Nobody uses that shit as a phone anyways.04:17
wasabi_But, no PIm.04:17
Texratcrap, wasabi, don't get me started04:17
konfoothat crap is unusable04:17
wasabi_no VPN.04:17
Texratvpn exists04:17
wasabi_But everybody USES it04:17
wasabi_because it's the only option.04:17
konfoomy wife gave up her sk3 for a tmobile dash and returned it 2 days later04:17
konfoowhat a POS04:17
TexratI found an internal use for the 770 but got almost zero support :/04:17
Milhousethe internet tablet definately needs a very strong secondary function - internet surfing alone isn't enough to sway some buyers. Great video or games would be a good secondary function. Email too.04:17
wasabi_If there was another option: the 800/770, people would jump on it.04:17
wasabi_I hope pvanhoof saves us.04:17
wasabi_The PocketPCs are a pain in the ass, but they work, barely.04:18
wasabi_CEOs can read their email on the road. That's all that matters.04:18
TexratI got a kick out of the guy on ITT who asked "what do i do with my tablet?"  ROFL04:18
konfooas a phone they suck04:18
wasabi_Yeah. We buy our marketing department them.04:18
wasabi_And phones.04:18
wasabi_They carry both.04:18
konfooheh indeed04:18
wasabi_Waste of data plan, waste of money. Sucky software.04:18
wasabi_But the only thing they can get their email/cal/contacts on.04:19
konfootry dial a number on a tmobile dash. you cant without using 2 hands or creating a contact04:19
konfooand navigating to a contact.. oy vey04:19
MilhouseAvoid the SonyEricsson W950i smartphone (Symbian UIQ) - horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE POS.04:19
TexratI can't share details but I will tell you guys this: there is a LOT of internal activity on N800 now04:19
TexratI can't ooverstate that04:20
konfooi get very angry when i see the 'START' button on a phone04:20
MilhouseExcellent - I do hope you can keep in touch with some of it!04:20
konfoostart what? its already running the phone app!04:20
wasabi_I'm practical. I just want a good device I can support easily that gets the job done.04:20
wasabi_The N*** is SO CLOSE04:20
TexratI'm biased, but I really prefer our phones over others04:20
wasabi_As an added benefit, I can contribute to it once I buy a dozen of them, but I can't buy a dozen of them until they serve some purpose.04:20
TexratI hate Moto interface04:20
konfooi have the w850i and the n800 and i am happy right now04:21
wasabi_I'm fine with my Moto04:21
konfoosd to cf adapter for the dslr camera04:21
konfoodone and done04:21
wasabi_i have a 815E04:21
wasabi_the model before the razr. It's big, bulky, and sturdy. ;004:21
wasabi_And has all the same features04:21
TexratThere's an LG facility near where I now work... maybe I'll try them04:21
MilhouseTextrat - I started out with Nokia (the Matrix bannana phone job - 8100?), followed by another couple of Nokias then switched to SE for two phones and have vowed to come back to Nokia, probably with the N95. I've learned my lesson. Hate Moto too - nasty menus.04:21
konfoothe only thing with the 850 is the stupid sony memory stick slot. and now they have this micro. wtbh thanks for rendering my cards useless, suckers04:22
TexratMoto UI is too complex for me04:22
Texratoh yeah, I hate the micro cards04:22
TexratI like chatting at this time of night; not likely to get busted by the Finns :p04:23
konfoodo they keep you locals in line04:23
MilhouseLet's hope they don't check the logs on Google! :)04:23
konfoocracking the whip04:23
Texratyes Konfoo they do04:24
Texrattough people, but sincere04:24
konfooit was like that at nds, which was why i left04:24
konfoooh sincere.. well thats ok04:24
konfootough and insincere i cant deal with04:24
Texratthey work hard and vacation hard too04:24
Texrato I can04:24
Texratoh wait-- gotcha04:24
MilhouseTexrat - so do you say know-kia or no-kia? :)04:24
Milhouseah yes, that's what I meant for the second one! :) same as us in the UK then?04:25
TexratIt's not like "I don't have a Kia"04:25
Milhouseahhh, different to us in the UK...04:26
Milhousei really shouldn't start phonetic discussions at this time of night!04:26
Texratwell, you limeys need to learn how to talk English :p04:26
Texratthought you'd say "piss off, mate"04:27
Milhousei was thinking of something a little stronger... but thought better of it :)04:27
Texratone of my buds at work is British, so I hear it all04:27
Texratwe are like the United nations there04:28
konfoodamn pommies04:29
konfootaking over the world04:29
TexratI just recently learned that word04:30
MilhouseJust another derogatory term - there's soo many!!04:30
Texratyeah, we get our share too04:31
MilhouseWhile we would call you a septic04:31
Texratjust living in or being from Texas these days is bad enough04:31
konfooyankee doodle04:32
Texrat"ah: the state that gave us Bush.  thanks"04:32
konfoothis reminds me of this tshirt i saw in amsterdam in a storefront... it read 'yanks, no thanks'. and that was .. 1996 i think04:33
konfooit was strange yet disturbing :)04:33
Texrat*sigh* thanks to our leaders of the last several years, i relaize we have a bad image04:34
TexratI'd just as soon fire them all and start from scratch04:34
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Milhousei'd like to do that with ours - being trying my best at the last two elections but they keep getting bloody well voted back in. bastids.04:35
Texratsame here04:35
konfoobastids.. i have not heard that one in a long time04:35
Texratrigged elections04:35
Milhouseapathy is the problem here - low turnout, win by default.04:36
Texratelectronic voting will be our demise04:36
Milhousewell, not quite but near enough04:36
Texratit's already started here04:36
Texratfraud, errors, etc04:36
Milhousehas anyone tried voting by the internet yet? can't be far off!04:36
Texratzero paper trail in some places04:36
TexratI used paper last time and intend to as long as I can04:37
Milhousei'm sure someone will suggest internet voting eventually!04:37
Texratalready have.  scares me04:37
Texrat*imagines hacked voting engines*04:37
Milhouseprobably the british government, we'll get EDS to write a system for $5Billion that never goes live.04:37
Milhouseyeah, the Google spider makes available everyones voting preferences available for searching by mistake. I can see it now...04:38
Texratoo, like the hidden pages that were recently exposed04:38
Milhousethe firm i used to work for, it's a *very* large investment bank, uses an encryption algorithm to protect their websites. when the google code search system went live it turned up on their - #1 hit if you enter the banks name - PANIC!!! :)04:39
Milhouseturned out an ex student had taken a copy and put it on his personal univeristy home page04:40
Texratthe damn spiders just go around the firewalls04:40
Milhouseex student intern04:40
shackanhow the hell did that code end up on google code search?04:40
shackanoh, that's baaad04:40
Milhouseyes, but also VERY FUNNY!04:41
Zer0Her0wonder if they sued the hell out of the poor kid04:41
MilhouseGoogle took it down pronto, bless 'em04:41
shackanso the student published that code somewhere?04:41
Texratthat stuff costs companies billions04:41
shackanZer0Her0, I bet they did04:41
Milhousenot sure what happened there - probably not. doubtful anyone could have bypassed security but it did spook the security risk guys04:41
Zer0Her0i worked for an investment bank as well while at university i tried to forget everything i wrote while there for fear of all the legal documents i read and signed.04:42
Milhouseit was a buch of PERL modules - he'd just taken a copy and dropped it in his home directory, which got scanned and... the rest is history04:42
Texratoh crap: my kids are too quiet04:43
shackanTexrat, good sign04:43
Texratno no04:43
Texratbad sign with these 204:43
shackananyway, it sucks my credit card doesn't have an expiration date / security code on it, it seems it can be used at atm only04:44
Texratwow, just reading and eating... what the heck04:45
Milhousesounds more like a debit card04:45
shackanerr, yeah, that's the name04:45
Texratmine was like that until I used it a while, shackan04:45
Texratthen they expanded it04:45
shackanhehehe, yeah I'm going to 'upgrade' it too04:46
Texratprobably a probation period04:46
Texratwhat bank?04:46
shackanthe 'modded' one allows to create virtual cards with one-time temporary codes and a fixed amount04:47
shackanTexrat, .it here04:47
shackanwhich is neat, but I don't know how much they're going to charge for the service04:47
shackanactivation is just 10€ for ten years04:47
Texratwell, I;m gonna bail guys... was nice chatting04:50
Texratsee you in ITT04:50
shackanbye Texrat, I wish you the best of luck04:50
Milhousebye texrat04:50
Milhousehope to chat again soon04:51
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gpdI don't suppose scriptkiller hangs out on this channel?05:16
gpd <-- how would you get past that to find the files manually?05:17
gpd <- must be in there somewhere05:18
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Markovis there someway to make the emu screen size larger for fceu?05:22
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Markovi mean. i really don't need those load save buttons05:23
Markovi'd much rather have a larger screen05:23
gpdisn't it restricted by the 4:3 ratio?05:25
Markovi don't think so05:29
Markovi mean no05:29
Markovyou can maximize either veritcally or horizontally and still maintain whatever ratio you want05:29
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Markovuggg. suddenly ` start` isn't working...06:07
Markov[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > sapwood-server[6177]: GLIB WARNING ** Gdk - cannot open display: (null)06:19
Markovthat's bs... echo $DISPLAY             :206:21
tigertdid you export the var?06:30
tigerttry -ac on xephyr?06:31
tigertis your xephyr :2? ;)06:31
tigertdo other apps work in the display (outside sbox?)06:32
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Markovit's fixed now06:33
Markovi restarted the whole thing06:34
soleblazedoh..apssword safe won't bring up the on screen keyboard so it's useless =/ unless you use a bt keyboard I guess06:34
soleblazethat reminds me.  what's the control panel addon that lets you start/stop services?06:36
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kulvesoleblaze: if you mean init.d services:
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soleblazeyup, that's the oen thanks..06:45
soleblazesaw it this morning but didn't write it down.06:45
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Markovwhen I do:  fakeroot dpkg -i fceu_0.98.12-6_armel.deb     I get06:52
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Markov error creating directory `./home/user': Permission denied06:52
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Markovas in i'm running, [sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~/MyProjects] > fakeroot dpkg -i fceu_0.98.12-6_armel.deb06:54
gpdI get the same thing06:58
gpdhowever - it is installed fine on my N80006:59
kulveno deb should mkdir /home/user ..07:00
Markovgpd: same for me07:01
Markovi tried setting --root=/07:02
gpdmaybe Tak knows07:02
soleblazeis there nethack for the n800? hmm07:03
gpdanyone know off the top of their head how to convert .bin to .iso?07:05
gpd[using only command-line tools on Linux]07:05
soleblazegoogle's a single c file07:06
gpdsweet - thanks07:07
gpdis anyone willing to discuss google map cacheing strategies :D07:12
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gpdfor example, if yuou were to run maemo-mapper on the scratchbox you would have a *large* disk on which to cache maps07:14
gpddownloading the right ones to the tablet later becomes more tricky07:15
cesmangpd: it is very easy07:15
cesmanmanage maps07:15
gpdcesman: yes - but space is the limiting factor07:15
cesmanonly if you use all the zoms07:16
gpdmmm... more zooms :)07:16
gpdmy plan is to rsync off the Cache directory for a particular City -- then delete all and start again for a new city07:17
gpdthen label the Cache directories by the city07:17
gpdsince i only need a few places it should be fairly easy07:17
cesmando you do a lot of driving?07:17
gpdno - but i will be travelling around India for a month next month07:17
gpdand there are no detailed maps by Garmin afaik07:18
gpdthis would be pretty handy07:18
gpdexcept of course that i am clearly insane if i think i am going to bring my n800!07:18
* gpd continues to live the dream07:18
cesmanno not take it?07:18
Takoh - fceu puts a file in /home/user/.fceultra as a hack because it doesn't (currently) have a global config file07:18
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gpdMarkov: ^^07:21
MarkovTak, why does it try to write to the current directory?07:21
MarkovTak, error creating directory `./home/user': Permission denied07:22
Takit doesn't; it tries to write to /home/user/.fceultra07:22
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Markovso, then what is the meaning of that message?07:24
Markovis that something dpkg is doing?07:24
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Markovalso, shouldn't fakeroot be able to do whatever it wants?07:26
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volhm, im running debian, and specified -d but the scratchbox install script didnt use debs07:27
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Takapparently not07:31
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TakMarkov: you can use dpkg --contents to see what it's extracting07:42
MarkovTak: heh, for some reason it's putting everyhting in ./07:47
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Markovmaybe there is something wrong with how the package was built?07:51
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Takthe package is fine07:55
Takthe issue is scratchbox07:55
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Markovany idea what's wrong with it?08:04
Markovapparently it's appending '.' onto $prefix08:05
Markovor something...08:05
Takdpkg --contents does that08:06
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Markovare you able to compile in sratchbox?08:07
Takyou could ln -s /home/whateveryourscratchboxusernameis /home/user  in scratchbox08:07
Takyeah, I built it in scratchbox08:07
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Markovi was going to try to see if i could increase the size of the 'screen'08:09
Takdoesn't it fill the display on your device?08:09
Markovno. it's small08:09
Takwhat version do you have, and how are you launching it?08:10
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Markovi have 0.98.12-608:11
Markovand i launch it via maeme08:11
Takyou have a 770, or an n800?08:11
Taktry one of the -bora packages08:12
Markovfor which one? maeme or fceu?08:12
Takthe 770 packages rely on the pixel doubling hack08:12
Takfor fceu08:12
Takor add the bora extras repo to the app manager08:13
Markovi found it thanks!08:15
Markovit's working too08:15
Markovthe music is really loud and low fi08:15
Markovcan i turn this down?08:15
imawinaris that a stream?08:16
imawinaruse the volume ... upper right08:16
Taknot from within fceu yet08:16
Takquit and turn down the system volume08:16
TakI'm going to map the zoom in/out buttons for volume control like canola does at some point08:17
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imawinarnice... what's new besides UI08:19
imawinarhe said he had sound working?08:19
imawinardid you find anything that could be optimized or left-out? :)08:19
Takthe sound code needs some major optimization08:19
imawinarhow do you know?  mailing list?08:20
Markovthe gain needs to be turned down on sound08:20
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Takno, I've looked at it08:23
Takafaik it's not doing any gain08:23
Markovoh. it sounds like it's up, but maybe i have a crappy rom08:24
gpdcrap - these India maps are awesome - I *really* am going to have to take my N800 on a Tour of India!08:24
Markovyou could always do signal/1.5 or something08:24
gpdMaybe I should campaign for sponsorship from Nokia - 'The N800 - the backpackers laptop'08:25
Markovgpd: you'd better sleep with it and a switch blade ;)08:25
gpdMarkov: zactly... :(08:25
gpdi suppose it is nice and flat to go under the pillow08:25
TakMarkov: does it sound a little choppy?08:26
MarkovTak: yes08:26
Takit might just be lag08:27
MarkovTak: it could just be me, but it seems like if i turn off the sound the video is not as slow08:28
imawinarMarkov, have you heard choppiness in the sound when you hear the startup greeting sound on the 770"08:28
Takyeah, when you turn off the sound, it disables that code entirely08:28
Takif the video is slower than it should be, you can bump up the frame skipping08:29
Markovlet me try that08:29
gpdany updates on the USB-HOST mode in the last week?08:29
Markovwhat's a reasonable number of frames to skip ?08:29
Takon n800, I have no idea08:30
TakI use 2 on 770 w/sound08:30
Takgpd: not afaik08:30
axiqueA question about automake and writing home applet compiles but on runtime I get undefined symbols to the gpe-palmtop libraries (eg. tododb), where do I have to add these dependencies in the automake files?08:32
Takis it an issue of different versions on the device and in scratchbox?08:34
MarkovTak: Double Dragon II looks okay on n800 w/o sound and skipping 4 frames08:34
Markovmaybe i like it abnormally fast08:34
Takwell - I don't have an n800 yet for testing08:35
TakI think it hurts that there's no xsp hack08:35
imawinaraccelerated 2x scaling08:36
* Tak nods08:36
Taksupposedly I can do a similar thing with xv on the 80008:36
Takalthough I suspect it's going to be a bit more work08:39
imawinari have to figure out how to trick my switch into forwarding all packets to my network monitor08:40
imawinarpromiscuous mode doesnt help at all when your switch is forwarding packets :/08:40
Takis it possible to seek the video in canola?08:45
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gpdso if I am in an internet cafe that has no WiFi... wtf08:51
gpdcould I create a teeny weeny stompbox-esque thingy?08:52
gpdor am i forgetting that USB will provide intarweb... :?08:52
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gpd <--add 10-20GB of wireless storage to cellphones, or other WiFi- and BlueTooth-equipped devices09:02
gpdthe (DAVE) device :D09:03
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gpdhi keesj09:22
keesjaxique: do you compile with -Wall or similar flags?09:23
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keesjaxique: does your application work in the sdk?09:24
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keesjI am  trying to understand the ssvb's 16bpp alpha blending routine. He writes it down as if it was simple an clear what happens!09:27
* keesj is not bitwise enough09:27
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axique_but now i have a design issue, how do i get the blue border (in std theming) arount my home apllet? does anybody now?09:32
keesjaxique: I know there is an exmaple somewhere , look as the application catalogue wiki and search for home applets. the source of the nokia applets is not open :(09:35
tigertcheck the gtkrc, maybe there are some widget name to set?09:35
axique_thanks for the hints, but as far as i see in the hello-world example on maemo there is the same 'problem', looking for the gtkrc issue09:36
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tigertif you stay around, i will ask for you09:37
tigertjust got to work, but the hax0rz who know probably dont come n this early :)09:38
axique_the next twenty minutes or so i'm still here09:38
tigertsend a mail to tigert at gmail and i can ask09:38
axique_i will stay online and have a look later, so just write, thanks in advance09:38
tigertwe can then put the answer to the wiki09:38
tigertif its not there already09:39
axique_thegtkrc tip is correct09:39
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axique_search for this on maemo, and yes there is a comment...about it...i think i'll get it...hanks again09:40
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tigertok. i thought the stuf might have some widget matches there09:40
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axique_i thin i was a littlebit overhasty: there is a comment, but the do not use it in the example app nor in the other applets i found in the web...hmm have to look later about this09:45
tigerthmm. i will ask tommi once he gets to wor09:46
tigertmail me so i can pass the info?09:46
keesjaxique_: I am also interested in the answer , can't you mail the developer mailing list?09:47
axique_ok, i will ask on maemo-developers@maemo.org09:48
tigertyea, actually that is the best idea09:48
axique_is this the right list?09:48
tigertso it gets archived and google indexed too09:48
trickiehello all09:50
trickiea quick question...09:50
trickieif i want python2.5 in the sdk, should i just add the extras repos to my sources.list?09:51
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axique_trickie, so did i09:53
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trickieanyone using python2.5 in the sdk?10:10
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zbenjaminhello @ all10:10
c0ffeetrickie, yes10:11
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maddlermorning all...10:22
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maddlerdid anyone else noticed high CPU usage after establishing Wlan connection and dhcp?10:23
maddlerhere looks like udhcp enters an almost-endless loop...10:23
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maddlercalling udhcpc.script again and again...10:25
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keesjI an trying to optimize xmoto. the non alpha polygon filling function is the most time consuming so I would like to improve the performace. Can somebody help me understand why some calls are slower then others?  (this is on x86)10:27
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keesjdoes the speed of aritmetic fuctions like + depends on the value?10:29
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dwdkeesj: No, it depends on the type.10:33
keesjthose are ints10:34
dwdkeesj: Or rather, it depends on the post-load type - loading in two chars out of memory can take a different amount of time to loading in two ints.10:34
keesjand pn and pnT are shorts10:34
dwdkeesj: Signed/unsigned could potentially make a difference, I suppose. Although with 2's complement, I doubt it does in practise.10:35
keesjare there good books about such things?10:35
dwdkeesj: What program's that screenshot from, BTW?10:36
JaffaMorning, all10:36
keesjdwd it is from kcachegrind (a very fine program)10:37
dwdkeesj: The highlighted line involves three registers, a load, and a shift. The line before looks the same, but pLeft will be preloaded, and it might have to free up a register to do the shift, possibly.10:39
mukundkeesj: try computer architecture by hennessy and patterson, and also the cpu manuals for your CPU10:40
mukundintel ships free printed manuals for their CPUs10:40
* koen_ wonders where nokia gets its lawyers10:40
koen_I always thought binary only kernel-modules where illegal10:41
dwdkeesj: That *pn = pnT[k]; is indirect load and store. I think that tends to be quite cache-heavy.10:41
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keesjmukund this one?,M110:41
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suihkulokkikoen_: the same place all lawyers are spawned from..10:42
dwdkoen_: No, there was a long debate on this. You end up with a tainted kernel, but Linus et al accepted binary only modules.10:42
mukundspeed may depend on the value when booth's multiplication algorithm is used for the * operation on ints10:42
koen_dwd: linus is full of shit on that part10:43
koen_that's why linus in an engineer, and not a lawyer10:43
keesjdwd: thanks for the tip. So I will need to try to profile on the n800 then, I hope the new scratchbox will support that.10:44
dwdkeesj: Oh, I should point out I'm far from a CPU/ASM expert, so if you get different advice from other people, mine's probably wrong.10:44
keesj:) I hope I can trick ssvb :p. dwd your info is still very interesting stuff for me10:45
dwdkoen_: I'm somewhat ambivalent on it, TBH. I don't *like* binary-only modules, but I don't care at all if I get can most functionality without them. (For example, I use a Radeon GFX card, with the open driver, not the ATI closed one)10:46
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mukund_keesj: i got disconnected, so i don't know if you got these messages:10:47
mukund_keesj: try computer architecture by hennessy and patterson, and also the cpu manuals for your CPU10:47
mukund_intel ships free printed manuals for their CPUs10:47
koen_dwd: I personally don't have problems with binary blobs loaded with a FOSS module10:47
mukund_speed may depend on the value when booth's multiplication algorithm is used for the * operation on ints10:47
keesjgpd great work on mud!10:47
mukund_keesj: opensparc uses booth's algorithm for multiplication (from their gpl'd sources).. i don't know about other cpus10:47
koen_dwd: but nokia keeping even that loader secret is a bit too much for me10:48
dwdkeesj: You might find you can make stuff a bit faster there if you can maintain n?Sum in a post-shifted state. So probably applying n?Slope shifted or something.10:48
* koen_ gets back to figuring out how to replace courier with dovecot10:48
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keesjdwd: I think it is shifted every time to prevent loss of information10:50
keesjperhaps I can try to make 2 arrays and first cal the nU and nV array?10:51
keesjI would then be making 3 iterations10:52
dwdYeah, I doubt that'd help. You'd be using more cache.10:52
dwdAnd yes, you'd lose information if you pre-shifted n?Slope, you're right.10:54
keesjperhaps I will be faster on the n800 if i just perform this using floating point11:00
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keesjoff to the bookstore11:07
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dazgardhi there :)11:08
dazgardi would liek to buy a media player, specially  an mp3 player.11:08
dazgardi was considering an ipod11:09
maddlerdazgard: ???11:09
keesjwho was working on instant lock ?11:09
maddlerdazgard: what's ipod?11:10
maddleroh... you mean the fruity toy?11:10
dazgardis it possible to use the n800 like a easy to use audio player ?11:10
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bedboihi there11:11
maddlerheya bedboi...11:11
dazgardhi bedboi11:11
dazgardno one have ideas ?11:12
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dazgardthe N8000 as a audio player ?11:13
dazgardgood or bad idea ?11:13
dazgardN800 :)11:13
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dazgardor perhaps am on the wrong channel11:13
Veggendazgard: you'll have to decide for yourself.11:15
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VeggenThe media player isn't all that bad.11:15
lardmanAm I going mad, or does the Bora toolchain not include FORTRAN? (going mad because the old one used to work, and they're supposed to be the same I thought)11:15
dazgardVeggen: i just wanted to know if it is easy to use it as a portable audio player11:16
maddlerN800 is The device...11:16
Jaffalardman: mistral/scirocco include *Fortran*?11:16
maddlerVeggen: and canola is on its way...11:17
dazgardi used to use my old PSP as a media player and it was not that cool :)11:17
lardmanJaffa: Yes, I think so. I was able to compile Octave at least11:17
maddlerPSP? Poor Supplied Player?11:17
Veggendazgard: for coolness? Go for the ipod. For flexibility and extendability, go for the N800.11:17
maddlerdazgard: go serious... N800!11:18
dazgardok, thanks guys :)11:18
lardmanJaffa: But looking through my old scratchbox directory, I can't find any of the gcc fortran binaries - hence my wondering about sanity ;)11:18
dazgardi think i'll go for the N800 :D11:18
maddlerdazgard: great! :)11:19
VeggenI don't think I'd buy it if an mp3 player is all I wanted.11:19
Veggenbut if you want/need it for something else, it does make sense to also use it as your mp3 player.11:19
dwdOoooh. My N800 is now scheduled to arrive today, according to UPS.11:20
maddlerdwd: great! :D11:20
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Jaffadwd: cool11:25
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lardmanThat's odd, in 2.1, which gcc points to /usr/bin/gcc, while in 3.0 it points to /scratchbox/compilers/bin/gcc11:30
lardmanand in 2.1 there's a /usr/bin/g7711:30
lardmanAh-ha, so the toolchain versions (of GCC) are the same, but they're not the same release of the toolchain - my mistake reading the blurb11:37
maddlergpd: it was you who ported mtr?11:45
Jaffakeesj: packages uploading to scirocco extras queue11:47
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konttoriHave you guys seen this geekbrief episode on N800?
X-FadeHmm Nokia NGage 2:
dwdOoooh - UPS van outside!12:07
jcml_dwd: don't forget to check the camera ... :|12:08
JussiPHow can you tell which 2 gig SD cards work with N800 and which don't? The product info pages are not helpful.12:12
X-FadeJussiP: They all work. Some with a patched kernel though.12:13
JussiPWell without patching then?12:13
X-FadeSDHC needs a patch..12:14
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[AD]Turbohi all12:33
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dwdjcml_: My camera appears to be working. What would be the symptoms of it being wrong?12:54
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nomisdwd: not consistently flipping the image when turning it around.12:57
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dwdnomis: That bit seems to work.12:57
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[mbm] .. dirt cheap 4g sd card .. wonder if it'll work13:01
Milhouse2GB cards work fine in the N800 - no patch required13:02
Milhouse4GB SD cards should work - SanDisk and Transcend seem OK so far, pot luck with no-name cards13:02
Milhouseno patch required either13:02
[mbm]yeah I have a 2G card in already, looking to do two 4G cards13:02
MilhouseSDHC cards of any size require the patched kernel13:02
[mbm]right, the above looks to be a cheap non sdhc card13:03
Milhousewhere are you?13:03
[mbm]in .ca; I could just walk over to frys and get a transcend card13:03
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[mbm]hmm might do that .. comments on the amazon page talk about how they misspelled the 'digital' on the SD logo13:04
thomasvsanyone here had success updating their kernel to accept SDHC cards though ?13:06
[mbm]haven't tried but from what I've seen of flasher it's pretty trivial (assuming you're competent enough to compile a kernel)13:07
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Milhousethomasvs - yes, working fine here with SanDisk 4GB SDHC13:10
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dwdWhat's SDHC?13:17
dwdAh, never mind.13:17
dwdSecure DIgital High Capacity, not fully sdrawkcab compatible.13:18
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MilhouseReasonably competitive SDHC prices here, particularly for Europe buyers:
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maddlerMilhouse: SD are even cheaper here...13:39
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MilhouseSD is so like... last year :)13:43
MilhouseI've just ordered a couple of the Transcend 8GB SDHC13:43
Milhouse16GB of goodness coming my way...13:43
MilhouseActually make that 24GB as I ordered a couple of Transcend 4GB SDHC cards as well for a second N80013:44
Milhouse1000 bugs on Bugzilla :)13:44
dwdMilhouse: That "dave" device from Seagate looks like it'd be fun, too.13:48
X-FadeI wonder if N800 also supports class 6 cards.13:49
dwdX-Fade: I wondered that too. 8G of class 6 sounds better than 16G of class 2.13:50
MilhouseHaven't read much on it, but it looks similar to the Agere BlueOnyx13:50
Milhousedwd - I'd expect it to with the SDHC, whether you'd see any benefit from the faster write speed is debatable unless high-speed mode is enabled13:50
Milhouseonce it's filled with media the N800 won't be doing much writing13:51
X-Fadedwd: Indeed. Hmm and those transcend cards have very low inser/removal cycles.. Only 10.000.13:51
Milhouseshould be enough for me! :)13:51
dwdMilhouse: The difference is that the BlueOnyx is flash, and much smaller. The dave - aside from having an amusing name - is hard drive based, IIRC.13:51
Milhouseso is the blueonyx13:52
Milhousei think13:52
Milhousethe blueonyx will come in flash and hard drive varieties13:52
Milhouse1GB to 40GB13:52
Milhousewith 16GB SDHC rumoured from Panasonic by the end of the year, it could very well be obsolete13:53
X-FadeHmmm 63 euros incl. vat. Not bad..13:54
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|tbb|xfade what do you speaking for_14:02
X-Fade8GB sdhc card..14:03
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tigertdoes it work?14:06
tigertwas sdhc the one that did?14:06
tigertor not?14:06
keesjcomputer architecture by hennessy and patterson looked good. I don't have the budget this month :(14:06
Milhouse8GB SDHC cards have been reported working (on ITT)14:06
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X-Fadetigert: With a patched kernel, they do. But in the next version of the vanilla kernel it will be included.14:10
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keesjssvb: I liked your the 16 bpp alpha mail. It took me a while to understand what you where doing14:16
tigertX-Fade: okay14:18
tigertgood to know14:18
* tigert updates his knowledge :)14:18
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X-Fadetigert: But I'm sure Nokia will not say if they are going to include support for that ;)14:21
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tigertI dont think that is a huge trade secret if the hardware is there already?14:21
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neostriderhello fellows14:22
tigertbut I dont know at all what the kernel folks are doing14:22
tigertI used to follow the ppc kernel and benh pretty actively on irc when I ran debian on my black powerbook years ago14:22
tigerthe rocked14:22
tigertit helped to get his packages to get a new piece of hardware working every week14:23
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|tbb|X-Fade: i was looking at the url and it says 83 euro to me ;/14:24
X-Fade|tbb|: excluding vat even :) But I was looking at local shops in .nl14:26
X-Fadetigert: If nokia updates the kernel, they will get support for free. But as far as I know, the 770 never had a newer version..14:28
X-FadeSo that policy is not that clear..14:28
|tbb|how can i add the os7 theme to my scratchbox gui14:29
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|tbb|i mean that gui which will be visible after starting  af-sb-init.sh14:31
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|tbb|sorry X-Fade it is also ex.Vat14:44
tigertI dont think that is available, but get my theme :)14:47
tigertI think the devel rootstraps still have the purple one?14:47
|tbb|deb srx14:48
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keesjwas sdl_mixer sound supposed to work?14:51
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JaffaIs the N800 car mount available separately? Can't see it on
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|tbb|is a navkit for n800 allready available ???15:06
nomishow can I detect a theme change in maemo?15:07
Jaffa|tbb|: I dunno, but I'm tempted by a cheap BT GPS15:07
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nomis(from within a running application)15:07
|tbb|which one?15:08
nomisJaffa: if you're interested in the navigation software it might make sense to wait for the bundle. The Nokia GPS receiver is nice, and the software without GPS is not that much cheaper.15:08
|tbb|and what should i do? got a navkit allready bougth for the n77015:09
Jaffanomis: I think I can just about persuade Mrs Jaffa that Maemo Mapper and a cheap BT GPS will be fine - we like the adventure of getting lost on holiday ;-)15:10
nomisJaffa: :)15:10
JaffaAlthough Google Maps is a bit crap in the UK/France as it doesn't show motorway/autoroute junction numbers.15:10
partcould someone with a maemo 2.0 or 2.1 installation handy verify one thing for me?15:14
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partis everyone already on 3.0?15:18
dwdpart: No, I have both.15:18
kkitossvb, are you here? :P15:18
tzzJaffa: does MUD build debian/rules for you?15:18
partdwd: which scratchbox version do you use for maemo 2.x?15:18
ssvbkkito: yes, but I'm at work now, so a bit busy15:18
|tbb|sapwood-server[16914]: GLIB ERROR ** default - bind(/var/tmp/sapwood-:2.0): Address already in use15:19
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|tbb|what can i do to get start  to work15:20
Jaffatzz: yes - but then you can further patch it if necessary15:20
kkitossvb, ah ok. I want to ask some questions about your video scaler optimitzations in the mplayer port.15:20
dwdpart: The old one. Not the same one as for 3.015:21
jcml_dwd: The camera symptoms are "when you turn in 180 degrees from its starting position, the scene you see is upside down".  ala
dwdpart: Actually, I've not even installed the new one yet.15:23
dwdjcml_: Ah, no, that works for me. If I turn it upside down, it flips.15:23
ssvbkkito: I can probably answer your questions if they will not require detailed explanations15:23
jcml_dwd: mine flips - twice.  That's the problem ...15:24
dwdjcml_: Oh. Exciting.15:24
kkitossvb, only to know if that optimitzations can be useful to scale the video on a sdl app15:24
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jcml_dwd: so there are definately N800s out there that, if you prop it up on its stand and set the camera to view the scene that you're looking at (while you also view the screen), will display what /you/ see with the correct orientation?15:25
ssvbkkito: sdl uses rgb color format on nokia 770 as far as i know, so it may be tricky15:25
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|tbb|for an unknown reason i cant start the gui of scratchbox anymore, any help?15:26
dwdjcml_: Yep.15:26
jcml_dwd: Cool.  That's what I needed to know for sure before RMAing mine :(15:27
ssvbkkito: accessing framebuffer directly you can get yuv colorpace support and scaling using code taken from mplayer15:27
kkitossvb, do you think that implement this to the sdl will be difficult?15:28
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ssvbkkito: can you explain why you need it? do you want to add video support to sdl application?15:29
tzzJaffa: doesn't work for emacs pretest.  I can send you the error.  It may be because the directory is emacs-22.0.93-1 but the packages is called emacspretest.  Do you do matching on that?15:29
tzzJaffa: Just trying to clear your intent up before I go source-diving...15:30
kkitossvb, i am porting some videogame consoles emulator to maemo, but all of them loses a lot of performance when the image are scaled to a bigger resolution15:31
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kkitoanyways the scaling can be done before drawing with sdl15:32
ssvbkkito: so what you need is a fast scaler for 16bpp rgb images (not really video), right?15:32
kkitossvb, yes15:32
Jaffatzz: it should produce a debian/rules, even if it's not right. It also tries to ensure the build directory meets debian's requirements, e.g. <package>-<version> so that *could* be causing problems.15:32
Jaffanomis: disco applet sounds useful.15:33
partdwd: right, can you check if the menus in 2.x work for you? as in, you can see the second level menus and start applications (like maemopad)?15:33
ssvbkkito: if you don't care about quality and do not need smooth pixels color interpolation, getting this scaler done should be relatively easy15:33
dwdpart: In scratchbox? Yes.15:33
ssvbkkito: that would be nearest neighbour or point scaling algorithm15:34
dwdWeird. My N800 just spontaneously rebooted.15:34
ssvbkkito: does sdl have functions for image scaling?15:34
Jaffadwd: see - I've got a bug open (#9xx) about dsp_dld spontaneously rebooting mine for no reason.15:35
ssvbkkito: if it does, optimizations can be done directly in sdl and every application will benefit from them :)15:36
kkitossvb, i dont know :/15:36
JaffaHmm, I think Maemo Mapper's source could *really* do with a refactor: it's a *single* .c file for the whole app.15:36
dwdJaffa: Bet the inliner loves that. :-)15:36
kkitossvb, well i am going to take a look at the sdl source... thank you :)15:37
jcml_Anyone: I've got an N800 with a dodgy camera (the "upside down" issue").  Nokia direct sales are pointing me towards a service centre, instead of getting it picked up and returned to Nokia.  Is this a good idea, given that they may well not have seen one before?15:37
jcml_(at the service centre)15:38
ssvbkkito: you can try to identify the code responsible for scaling in this emulator, we'll see what can be done15:38
ssvbkkito: you are welcome15:38
jtradwd: spontaneous reboots worry me too (on my 770), I have also seen corruption of 8 bytes in file while copying it back and forth on 770 and to main computer (over ssh connection over wifi)15:38
|tbb|could someone help me please?
Veggenjcml: I delivered my old N770 to a service center. In november or so. It did indeed take some time, but it did come back, fixed.15:39
nomisJaffa:  <-- just showing the current levels, no further functionality yet.15:39
nomisJaffa: (that is for the N800)15:39
Veggenjcml: And when I got there, they'd never seen such a thing, and had no clue where it should go, but they did manage to fix it ;)15:40
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dwdIs 2.2006-51-6 the latest and greatest for N800?15:40
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keesjtbb , what command did you use to start the xephir?15:40
dwdjcml_: They'll just send it on to the central repair place, I'd have thought.15:41
|tbb|Xephyr :3 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x16 -dpi 96 -ac15:41
keesjand what happens if you start a different app osso-xterm?15:42
mgedminwhy is the dpi of the X server in the 770 set to a fake value?15:42
nomismgedmin: "because everybody does it".15:43
mgedminwho is everybody?15:43
jcml_Veggen/dwd: Thanks :)15:43
mgedminzaurus et al?15:43
nomismgedmin: for example Debian  :-(15:43
mgedminhm... my ubuntu doesn't15:43
jcml_Veggen: define "some time" .... :-)15:44
mgedminand thanks to the wonders of xrandr I sometimes get horizontal dpi != vertical dpi, and both totally out of whack15:44
nomismgedmin: the default config of GDM in Debian hardcodes the DPI in the X-Server invokation. Which sucks utterly.15:44
mgedminwell, maybe not so utterly, most desktop/laptop monitors are pretty close to 100dpi15:45
mgedminbut the 770 is at 225 dpi15:45
Veggenjcml: well, it felt like ages, but it might have been only 1 1/2 month ;)15:45
nomismgedmin: my notebooks display is at 124dpi.15:46
|tbb|[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > osso-xterm15:46
|tbb|osso_initialize() failed!15:46
mgedminrun start15:46
mgedminoh, you did15:47
keesjhmm osso-xterm is not a pure x11 server15:47
andreasntigert: around?15:48
mgedminstrange errors about keybinding.r15:48
mgedminstrange errors about keybinding.rc15:48
|tbb|do u think a reboot from the system will help15:49
jcml_Veggen: 6 weeks?  Crikey ... :(15:51
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nomis|tbb|: to restart the af-init-sb properly I sometimes have to killall qemu-arm-0.8.1-sb2, sometimes even with -9.15:52
Veggenjcml: In the meantime I got tired of waiting and bought an N800 too ;-)15:52
Veggen(and just after, my 770 returned)15:52
jcml_Veggen: grr.  it's my nice shiny 770-replacement n800 that's got the fault :|15:53
JaffaHeh, a Nokian's voted for my DSP bug:
Jaffa(and pointed out that voting is now enabled on N800 bugs)15:53
jcml_dwd: I don't have a registered nick, so I can't reply to that PM but ... thanks for the suggestion :-)15:53
inz|tbb|, does " osso-xterm" work?15:54
tigertandreasn, yes15:55
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andreasntigert: trying  to ssh to my 770, but I get totally weird errors15:55
andreasnI can ping it and stuff though15:55
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|tbb|[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > osso-xterm15:56
|tbb|AF Warning: '/etc/osso-af-init/keyboard.defs' not found15:56
|tbb|/home/tb/.osso/current-gtk-key-theme:1: Unable to find include file: "keybindings.rc"15:56
|tbb|osso_initialize() failed!15:56
inzandreasn, do you have xterm running on the device?15:56
inz|tbb|, doh -- failing osso_initialize usually means the program cannot contact the dbus daemon15:57
andreasninz: yes15:57
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inzandreasn, you're probably running out of ptys15:57
|tbb|[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > ps aux |grep xterm15:57
|tbb|root     30153  0.0  0.2   4612  1076 pts/1    S    Jan30   0:00 su -c eval $TERM;      exec env  TERM='xterm' DISPLAY=':0' $SHELL;15:57
tzzJaffa: I'll check the source, I'm pretty sure you are not matching emacspretest in the dir name.  THanks for the help.15:57
mgedmintbb, by the way, I don't think you can get X apps running in the *armel* target15:58
mgedmintry the PC one15:58
inzandreasn, try running "echo 64 > /proc/sys/kernel/pty/max" as root in the xterm15:59
andreasninz: I don't have root though, that's what I needed ssh for15:59
|tbb|mgedmin: 4 hours ago it was working16:00
inzandreasn, then try closing the xterm and try ssh'ing in16:00
andreasnah, managed to become root now16:02
andreasnok, ran "echo 64 > /proc/sys/kernel/pty/max"16:04
inzandreasn, can you ssh in now?16:04
andreasnandreas@andreas-laptop:~$ ssh
andreasnssh: connect to host port 22: No route to host16:05
andreasnstill get that16:05
partmgedmin: X apps work on armel targets too16:05
mgedminI never got them to run...16:06
mgedmincpu 100% for a long time, then I get bored16:06
inzandreasn, ah, then it seems that the sshd is not running16:07
andreasnI installed dropbear16:07
andreasndo I need to start it from xterm?16:07
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inzOr, humm, maybe it defaults to some other port...16:08
inzI dunno16:08
|tbb|tb@S574rm3d14:~$ sb-conf select SDK_X8616:11
|tbb|sb-conf: You must close your other Scratchbox sessions first16:11
mgedminsb-conf killall16:12
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thomasvshm, my n800 just started rebooting and keeps rebooting as soon as it hits the nokia hands screen :/16:16
thomasvsanyone else seen this ? any suggestions ?16:16
mgedminwhat did you do?16:16
thomasvsnothing special afaict16:17
mgedminrun apt-get upgrade as root perhaps?16:17
thomasvsat some point yesterday, yes16:17
mgedminwell, duh16:17
thomasvsinstalling software causes endless reboots ?16:17
mgedminthat's a trap for new users :)16:17
mgedminupgrading maemo-launcher kills that process16:17
mgedminthe lifeguard notices that an ESSENTIAL SYSTEM DAEMON IS DEAD, OMG16:17
mgedminso it reboots the device16:17
mgedminwhile the upgrade is not yet complete16:18
thomasvsbut it keeps rebooting16:18
mgedminand since the upgrade is not complete, the reboot fails16:18
mgedminthere are two ways to fix the situation16:18
mgedmin1) use the flasher to enable rd mode and disable lifeguard resets16:18
|tbb|no-lifguard-reset ;)16:18
mgedminthen run the upgrade again and let it complete in peace16:18
mgedmin2) reflash16:18
thomasvsmgedmin: are there some docs on either method ?16:18
mgedminI'm not sure maemo-launcher is the one package that broke on your n80016:18
mgedminit could be some other essential process16:19
thomasvsmaybe because I tried installing canola at some point yesterday16:19
thomasvsand installed only avahi16:19
mgedminor it could be that you upgraded, say, busybox from the one that works on the device, to the one that only works in the SDK16:19
thomasvswell, I was considering flashing on a new kernel for SDHC anyway16:20
mgedminit is somewhat disappointing that nokians didn't add any safeguards in preinst scripts16:21
mgedminto prevent curious users from borking their devices in this way16:21
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andrunkothomasvs: how did you try to install canola on n800? there are no packages available yet :S16:23
VRethere should be repository for devices with all the libraries so people wouldn't enable that repo which is basically for scrachbox16:23
thomasvsandrunko: well I tried the scirocco repos16:24
VRenow it's nasty that many deb's depend on lib's which you need to get from repository for scrachbox16:24
andrunkothomasvs: i imagined, but it shouldn't work16:25
thomasvsandrunko: yeah, apparently16:25
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|tbb|tartget sdk_X86 works, but sdk_armel also works before, any idea?16:33
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|tbb|when i try to compile something for the N800 i need the target sdk_armel isnt it so?16:34
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wumpusthe busybox upgrade trap got me too16:37
kulve|tbb|: yep16:38
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thomasvshm, after a bunch of reboots, it now shuts down automatically 1 sec into booting :/16:51
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Disconnectthomasvs: is it charged?17:01
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|tbb|so how can i get it back to work to start gui for _sdk_armel17:06
thomasvsDisconnect: I had charged it to full charge half an hour before, but of course it's hard to tell if the battery is charged17:07
Disconnectthomasvs: prolly is though .. i skipped to the end, what did you do that blew it up? kernel?17:07
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thomasvsDisconnect: I am not usre, but mgedmin's theory of me installing some software that removed an important system service and then lifeguard rebooting on boot sounds plausible17:08
thomasvsok, so I reflashed it and it seems to boot now17:08
|tbb|damn now it works also on sdk_armel, have done nothing17:08
partdwd: did you test it?17:10
dwdpart: The scratchbox menus?17:11
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|tbb|is the src for rssfeadreader applet available?17:17
Disconnectthomasvs: random side note, you can always disable lifeguard resets if you have the linux/osx flasher17:19
partdwd: yes17:19
dwdpart: The menus seem to work fine, I've never had a problem.17:20
partdwd: ok, thanks17:20
* Disconnect wants feedreader sources too, tie it into the API of his ajax feedreader17:21
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|tbb|is it normal dont have a sw keyboard on os7 gui emulator (or how you call the start gui)17:23
dwd|tbb|: I do, but it's sometimes a little glitchy.17:24
parttbb: do you mean maemo 3.0 when you say os7?17:25
thomasvsare there known issues with the flasher and fedora core ?17:25
dwd|tbb|: Oh, I've not tried Bora SDK yet.17:26
parttbb: you need the nokia binaries installed if you want to have the virtual keyboard17:26
partthomasvs: not that I know of. Are you having issues with it?17:26
thomasvspart: yeah, I have two machines, and neither allow me to flash17:26
|tbb|i think i got them, i was running a script which should installed that17:27
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partthomasvs: which flasher are you using?17:28
thomasvspart: flasher-3.017:28
thomasvspart: a coworker of mine using ubuntu is able to flash it just fine17:29
thomasvsbut I can't see anything particularly different on my system, no selinux problems, no other messages17:29
parttbb: have you done "fakeroot apt-get install maemo-explicit" in both targets?17:29
partthomasvs: can you try the statically linked flasher instead?17:30
thomasvspart: sure17:30
* zbenjamin hates jffs2 images17:32
thomasvspart: nope, no difference17:32
partthomasvs: what's the error message?17:34
thomasvspart: just waiting for a usb device, and nothing happens17:34
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partthomasvs: ok. try if this helps: 1) disconnect the device and shut it down 2) start flasher 3) connect usb cable 4) connect power cable to the device17:36
nomistigert: there?17:36
|tbb|thx part that was the problem17:37
parttbb: good17:38
mukundtigert: me too ping17:38
|tbb|but anyway got suspect errors17:42
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|tbb|/home/tb/.osso/current-gtk-key-theme:1: Unable to find include file: "keybindings.rc"17:42
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thomasvspart: ok, so the static one works after I make sure both uhci_hcd and ehci_hcd are loaded17:45
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|tbb|is the source for rssfeadreader applet available?17:57
parttbb: osso-rss-feed-reader-list and osso-rss-feed-reader sources are available, not sure if those include the applet or not18:02
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|tbb|cant find it via apt-get :/18:04
partno, you'll have to get the source tarball18:06
JaffaKoen has them all unpacked somewhere, but I can't find the link atm18:07
Jaffa(and only Maemo 2 versions)18:07
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|tbb|where can i get the the maemo3 version?18:08
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partjaffa: maemo 2 sources from the cd are also at:
Disconnectdoes maemo 3 handle 64bit systems yet? istr it was a PITA in the last version18:12
Disconnectnevermind.. "E: Currently Scratcbox can only run in 32 bit i386 architecture."18:13
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Disconnectbtw scratchbox is misspelled in the original message (missing the h)18:14
maddlerdamn... after installing maemo-mapper gizmo stops working...18:14
TakDisconnect: ugh, that is a pita18:14
maddlerI can't remember doing anything else...18:14
TakI guess I won't be doing any dev on my opteron machine :-/18:14
DisconnectTak: it gets better18:15
* Tak holds his breath18:16
Disconnectsorry, digging out the new-pastebin url18:16
thomasvsok, excellent.  I used the flasher to temporarily run a different kernel, the one with the SDHC patch18:18
thomasvsnow if only I had an SDHC card to try :)18:18
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* thomasvs looks forward to 16 GB of storage18:18
montesluis maemo 3 only for the 800? or is there a 2007 OS being made for the 770 ?18:18
montesluso its not an official port from nokia?18:19
DisconnectTak: note the "no scratchbox installed... error, there's a scratchbox installed" (and no, there's no scratchbox)18:20
monteslu"We're not targeting the end user or aiming at production quality, but instead focusing on providing the OS 2007 platform for hacking on a 770" ...Thanks alot Nokia18:20
Takthat's awesome "Scratchbox not existing...scratchbox already exists!"18:21
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partdisconnect: does /scratchbox exist?18:22
parteven if it's empty, if the directory exists, the installer will complain18:23
partecho "Scratchbox installation not existing..."18:24
partif [ -d $__scratchbox ] ; then18:24
part        echo "E: Scratchbox already found in installation path '$__scratchbox'."18:24
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Disconnectyah thats what happened. somewhere along the way the dir got created18:25
Disconnectbtw trying "sudo linux32 maemo-installer -d" .. i'll report back if it works18:26
bedboii got my n800 :)18:28
maddlerbedboi: GREAT!18:28
maddlerso... tell us...18:29
maddlerhow is it? ;)18:29
bedboii'm testing18:29
Disconnectok that didn't work.  package architecture (i386) does not match system (amd64)18:35
Disconnectgrrr. added --force-arch to the dpkg line and reran, it decided it would be good to remove the debs (starting with 50M of core :( ..)18:37
Takyeah - I find it necessary to still have a small chroot for a lot of things18:37
Disconnecti could argue that erroring out and forcing you to either remove the debs or tell it to reuse them (-c) is more correct than removing a 50M archive without warning..18:40
partdisconnect: file a bug on the installer18:41
dwd*sigh* I'm getting way too used to my 770/N800. I just tapped the screen of my 7610 to wake it up.18:42
Disconnectno 3.0 in bugzilla18:42
partdisconnect: file it on the sdk or something18:43
partdwd: haha18:43
maddlerdwd: LOL!18:43
dwdHey, it could be worse, I've not yet tried hitting the twin panels on my workstation.18:44
bedboijust one question... the voip application that now supports the camera, is usable just with other n800 people18:45
bedboiis there any client that works for x86?18:45
partbedboi: only for win3218:45
partnot sure18:45
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dwdWhat's the video calls using? Jingle/XMPP still?18:48
partdwd: I think so, yeah18:49 for the windows client18:49
Robot101and yeah, it's XEP-0166 based voice/video, just using google's libjingle for the transport rather than UDP or ICE18:50
partI was going to say and then select "How can I set up, use, and disable Nokia Internet Call Invitation (Beta)?"18:50
dwdRobot101: Oh, question for you - is there any way I can tell which of my contacts can handle voice or video?18:51
dwdRobot101: As in, any way of getting at the disco jingle data.18:51
Disconnectpart: yah. added as 100318:52
Disconnectadding one (enhancement) for --force-architecture18:52
partdisconnect: you've got better chances of getting a bug fixed if it's filed18:53
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bedboiand there is no client for linux?18:54
dwdbedboi: If the core library is open source, and it's based on open standards, it should be "just a matter of coding".18:54
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bedboiis there any documentation?18:55
Disconnectpart: ...yes, thats why i just filed 2 bugs.. although i've seen the discussions on bugs that end up in never-never land :)18:55
Robot101dwd: in telepathy? or on xmpp?18:55
dwdbedboi: For libjingle? Yes. Quite a few programs use it already.18:55
bedboidwd: yep i use libjingle18:56
dwdRobot101: Actually in the UI - I can see how to do it in XMPP, but the UI on the 770|N800 doesn't seem to show me whether the contact supports audio or not.18:56
bedboifor the video part18:56
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Robot101dwd: libjingle doesn't interoperate with our video calling, because libjingle doesn't do jingle, it dos gtalk :P18:56
Robot101dwd: yeah it's a lack in the UI, in future it might be fixed...18:57
dwdbedboi: As Robot101 says, there's a slew of XEPs describing the XMPP layer to it.18:57
dwdRobot101: Ah, good. Not just something I'm missing, then. :-)18:57
Robot101bedboi: the backend the N800 uses is Telepathy, it's all open source18:58
Robot101bedboi: and atm people are working on making it work in GNOME18:58
bedboithe backend used by nokia is publicly available?18:59
Robot101bedboi: yes, it's telepathy's "gabble" backend... see telepathy.freedesktop.org18:59
bedboiah k18:59
bedboiso the svn is video ready18:59
Robot101the svn is telepathy ready, you need our branch to play with video/voip18:59
* maddler goes home19:01
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bedboiRobot101: url?19:02
c0ffeeRobot101, so this thing can be used with the n800?19:02
Robot101c0ffee: yes19:03
Robot101I guess I should blog about that a bit, maybe get myself on planet maemo19:03
c0ffeeso i can stop trying to make sense out of the libjingle they shipped with nici19:03
Robot101because ppl seem to be asking what you can call with19:03
Robot101c0ffee: oh... yes... :)19:03
Robot101c0ffee: we're actually trying to stop using libjingle at all, it's a nightmare19:03
c0ffeea >200.000 lines diff written by my beloved friends from indt19:04
Robot101nici? the one off videovoip.tableteer.n.c?19:04
Robot101nokia internet call invitation, ah right19:04
bedboiRobot101: what you would like to use instead of libjingle?19:04
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Robot101bedboi: we already do the signalling (XMPP) ourselves, we just use libjingle for the NAT traversal19:05
Robot101c0ffee: that wasn't INdT19:05
c0ffee * Copyright 2006, INdT19:06
c0ffee *  @author: Andre Moreira Magalhaes <>19:06
bedboiRobot101: so you are going to develop a nat traversal library19:06
c0ffeethat's in the libjingle source in some places19:06
c0ffeeanyway bbl19:07
Takhmm - would it be useful for fceu to autosave if the device shuts down while it's running?19:07
Robot101c0ffee: yes, we (telepathy) use a fork of libjingle which the INdT people have also worked on for tapioca19:07
Robot101bedboi: yeah19:07
Robot101bedboi: we're already doing it,
Takor does the risk of overwriting a good save state outweigh the risk of losing an indefinite amount of progress?19:08
Robot101c0ffee: it's in their svn on tapioca.sf.net19:08
Robot101c0ffee: the nici people forked it even harder so it would interoperate with telepathy, which speaks real jingle19:08
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makuchakuHi guys, did anyone got a message from the Nokia shop saying "Nokia / Order #XXXXX - Update on Your Order Status, Please Call Us" when the order was placed for the discounted N800?19:33
jcml_oh /dear/ ...
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Takheh, did you hear that the new firmware got cracked already?19:37
nomisI guess they waited too long with the release of their new firmware crack  :)19:37
nomis /mode nomis -conspiracy19:38
jcml_Has anyone thought how much nokia could profit from an opensource, third-part, not-hosted-on-garage version of an ipod click wheel interface on the 770/800's touch screen?  Nokia'd only have to provide APIs for the native media player and would then be untouchable by apple ... <deepbreath>19:40
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jcml_... and when the 8GB cards start working, we'd have a 16gig ipod available for the price of the memory cards alone.19:41
||cwwell, apple is pretty defensive, so they would certainly find a way to shut it down19:42
||cwthe API's are already there19:42
||cwor at least to make a new media player19:43
jcml_||cw: how much of the front-end of the media player could be coded from scratch with the current APIs?  Is there much missing?19:43
||cwit's just a media player19:43
||cwthere are 3-2 alternate ones in the application catalog already19:44
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makuchakuGuys, I'm really worried about my order... what can be the cause of "Nokia / Order #XXXXX - Update on Your Order Status, Please Call Us" message?19:44
jcml_I don't know - have you tried calling them?19:44
nomismakuchaku: call and find out?19:44
Takmakuchaku: there have been lots of issues with orders - you should call them19:44
||cwand then there's this:
Disconnectfor anyone trying to run scratchbox on x86-64 .. i'm building an xserver-xephyr with the patch ( i'll let you know if it works.19:45
makuchakunomis, Tak, I've requested my uncle to talk to them, I'm from India & he's in US. He's the one who has ordered my device.19:45
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nomismakuchaku: ah. There have been some similiar reports, usually a call cleared these up quickly IIRC.19:46
makuchakunomis, oh, ok. Is there a numeric form of this number - 1-866-59NOKIA which I can call19:47
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makuchakunomis, as it seems, I cannot dial this number from India19:47
nomismakuchaku: unsure how the assignment of letters->numbers usually is.19:47
hapis canola available for N800 yet ?19:47
makuchakunomis, oh19:47
Disconnectmakuchaku: istr there are a bunch of voip clients that allow free calls to 800 numbers. (you can't call an 800 # internationally, regardless of the #/letter thing)19:47
makuchakunomis, thanks anyways. I'll request my uncle to call them.19:48
makuchakuDisconnect, ok :)19:48
andrunkohap: not yet, we are almost there19:48
hapandrunko: ok, a friend i met yesterday told me to try it, i was saying how bad I think the N800 UI is.19:49
hapso i'll just i guess19:49
hapso I'll just wait i guess19:49
andrunkoyou won't have to wait for too long19:49
maddleranyone with a gizmo client?19:49
hapandrunko: like hours ? ;)19:49
hapandrunko: or days19:49
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hapmaddler: me, but i don't want you to call me ;)19:49
maddlerhap: :P19:50
hapi'm trying to use gizmo with my SIP providers, but it doesn't work.19:50
hapno log, just the call stops, and I get no phonecalls on my regular line, sux.19:50
maddlerhap: eh... I've been fighting with gizmo for a while...19:51
andrunkohap: days19:51
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maddlerand now... it simply decided to start working...19:51
hapandrunko: ok, i'll wait for an announce here19:51
hapmaddler: ah, doesn't look very stable.19:51
maddlerhap: no...19:51
maddlersadly enough...19:51
hapmaddler: an opensource SIP client would be great19:52
hapi just don't know any, i mean opensource client that _works_19:52
maddlerI hoped it was an alternative to skype...19:52
maddlerhan anyone tried ekiga on N800?19:52
hapwell i guess it won't be. It sux because my phone providers give me SIP access with free national calls, and international on some countries19:52
hapmaddler: not tried.19:52
hapI guess you could try to dpkg-buildpackage to check :)19:53
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maddlermaybe I'll give it a try...20:01
keesja python list can be a very good idea, but again isnt that what garage projects are all about(having a bugtracker.mailing list) ?20:02
maddlerI think the lists are ok as they are now...20:03
maddler_maybe_ the developer list should be only used for real development related threads...20:03
maddlerand everything else should stay on maemo users...20:04
Taksupposedly the user list is for app development20:04
Takand the dev list is for hacking on maemo itself20:04
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keesji just can't  believe i am typing all this on a thumb keyboard. it's really great to be in a bookstore or in front of the tv and still bee connected to irc and mail20:05
Disconnectkeesj: its even better when you get a bluetooth keyboard :)20:06
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keesjonly when i type i don't see what others have typed . i like the maemopeople term. i don't like being a user. i like the developer program. i don't like the user/expert relation since that would be very passive20:09
hapandrunko: looking at the youtube video, it looks great20:10
hapandrunko: great like something i want ;)20:10
jcml_keesj: I find that the key thing with the thumb board is to be very IM-ish: short sentences ...20:11
maddlerkeesj: yes... the thumb board left me pleasantly surprised...20:12
bedboianyone can install gpe-calendar for bora?20:12
maddlerkeesj: have you already opened your maemopeople(TM) blog?20:12
keesjwhat if the real 'maemo' development was called maemo-distro would that fill the trem. ?20:12
bedboifrom application catalog20:12
maddlerbedboi: it actually worked for me...20:12
bedboiit says that it lacks gpg stuff20:13
andrunkohap: nice tnx :)20:13
maddlerbedboi: you should ignore that...20:13
bedboihmm, ignore?20:14
bedboii can't ignore20:14
bedboiit fails20:14
keesjmaddler it don't think  i have the writing quality it would harm the community :)20:14
Takwill the new canola have video seeking?20:14
maddlerkeesj: haha..20:14
andrunkoTak: we are working on that, it already works here, but we have some issues that we are trying to fix20:16
Disconnectmaybe a stupid question, but where is the source tarball for rssreader? the sources page says "some is available via apt-get" but nothing about where the rest is..20:16
Takandrunko: cool - that's my #2 wanted feature20:16
Disconnect(well, sources for rssreader are my goal, the main tarball is where its supposed to be...)20:16
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andrunkoTak: :)20:16
tkoDisconnect, should be right next to the email sources20:18
Disconnect.... isn't particularly useful20:18
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tkoDisconnect, you need to use the written GPL offer, like
Disconnectnobody requested the 3.0 sources yet? :(20:23
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Disconnectahh nice20:28
tkoinz, is that page linked somewhere? :)20:28
Disconnectanyone want to add that to the sources page?20:28
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inztko, ;)20:29
tkothat's not exactly what I meant...20:29
inztko, well, links to it ;)20:31
Disconnectbtw those patches fixed xephyr on my ubuntu-amd64 system. i'll stick the deb on my site in a bit20:31
Disconnectinz: but the 'trail' to sources (From nokia sites) is download-source.html20:31
tkoinz, starting from is there a trail to Nokia_N800_OS.php ?20:32
inztko, nope =(20:32
inztko, the IT_sources.php was mentioned on this channel a longish time ago20:33
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kulvethere's a linkt to that url20:34
kulveis that the same place?20:34
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inzkulve, that's the URL for the image, not the sources, right?20:35
kulveI don't want to enter the mac there, so I don't know. The page itself is exactly the same20:36
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Disconnectgot the source, but i'm not in a position to host a 200M file - anyone got hosting suggestions? (my uplink is about 10k/s ATM..)20:40
Disconnectactually....scratch that. 2.2006.* ...20:41
Disconnect(i'm dumb, ignore all that. its the right source package, and i'm open to suggestions as to where to put it for others)20:44
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waiteDisconnect I can provide some storage space21:09
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TexratTesting, testing...21:14
TexratAnyone home?21:14
mgedmintest failed: timed out21:15
TexratJust installed tablet gaim irc21:15
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TexratMaking sure it worked :)21:16
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daveaitelI love how Nokia only operates through Brightpoint21:18
daveaitelhere in the states21:18
daveaiteland Brightpoint won't sell the N80021:18
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_k-s_guys, how (n800) to setup a fake network connection so I can access localhost from browser?21:19
mgedminit's like they're trying to put as many obstacles as possible between the tablets and the potential purchasers21:19
_k-s_I was using "gconftool-2 --type string --set /system/osso/connectivity/IAP/Localhost/type DUMMY"21:20
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etrunko_k-s_: have you looked at libconic?21:21
_k-s_etrunko: nope, what's it?21:21
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Takdaveaitel: compusa?21:22
Takor do you mean like mass purchase?21:22
Disconnectwaite: first lets see if garage lets me have a project to host it. (seems only fair :) ..)21:23
_k-s_etrunko: I still have to read it, but from a quick overview, it seems not to be what I'm looking for21:24
_k-s_etrunko: it seems to be what browser uses21:24
Takfiles in the "Files" section in garage are limited to like 4MB21:24
_k-s_etrunko: I need to overcome this library21:24
daveaiteltak - we need a real agreement to do Immunity SILICA - can't just order from CompUSA21:25
etrunko_k-s_: hmm... Actually i don't know what has changed since 2.1 version21:25
* Tak nods @ daveaitel 21:25
Disconnectlovely. "I don't think this is necessary, the sources are available." (but they are only available to tablet owners.)21:25
daveaitelNokia's phone people have no idea what the N770 or N800 is21:25
_k-s_etrunko: ouch... time running out...21:25
daveaitelit's weird. This is nokia's coolest product!21:25
_k-s_etrunko: canola still pending some problems21:25
Disconnectwaite: since they denied it, yah. i'd love someplace to host the files. 320 files, 220 megs :)21:26
etrunko_k-s_: i was told this libconic is what you should use for connections... the gconf way is deprecated21:26
_k-s_etrunko: ok21:26
Disconnectand there's no appeal option (or any communication), short of creating another project with an updated description. which sounds like a good way to end up banned..21:27
_k-s_etrunko: I'll have talita to read it...21:27
etrunko_k-s_: maybe you should ask in the ML21:27
etrunko_k-s_: :)21:27
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Yuveewhere can I get img files for Garmin GPS receiver ?21:38
DisconnectYuvee: garmin.com21:39
Yuveeit doesnt provide img for free21:39
thraddieyou did not say you want to get them for free ;-)21:40
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DisconnectYuvee: maps cost money. alternately, gpsbabel might be able to convert us tiger data to garmin format21:45
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myren_i dont think gpsbabel can do anything with tiger21:52
myren_there's some programs out there to turn tiger into useful data, but it was a rather extensive process when i tried it couple years ago21:53
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maddlersbaturzio: ao`21:58
sbaturziomaddler: ciao!21:58
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sbaturzio1st question: is there a GUI editor for Hildon and C? IIRC Gatzpacho works only for python21:59
keesjinz nice feature to open the url from an xterm link.21:59
keesjsbaturzio, I have used glade2 for dialogs and such22:00
inzkeesj, I made that cuz I'm lazy ;)22:00
sbaturziokeesj: but still need libglade installed?22:00
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sbaturziogtk can use xml files natively, so why glade?22:00
keesjsbaturzio, no, i generated c code22:01
maddlersbaturzio: what's up?22:01
sbaturziokeesj: uh...You're right: glade could generate C code....uhmmm.....(and suddenly a door opened in front of him) 8-)22:03
sbaturziomaddler: I'm starting to code for n800...first approach ;-)22:04
* nomis recommends to avoid glade and code GTK+ manually.22:04
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keesjfor me is it really only gui code , I don't even want to touch it. the generated was "mostly" untouched by me22:06
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keesjthe generated good is the best example that I could find anyway22:09
nomisI really wonder why the glade-generated code does not use the g_object_new (GTK_SOME_TYPE, "property1", value1, "property2", value2, ..., NULL); syntax. That makes code so nicely to read.22:10
maddlersbaturzio: good...22:10
mgedminglade-generated code?22:10
mgedminisn't that out of fashion these days?22:11
* mgedmin agrees that most code generators are evil22:11
keesjc is evil and old fashion !22:11
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keesjjust kidding, but what is the right aproach? code by hand? what do you gain?22:13
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nomiskeesj: the code is nicer and you don't depend on glade to be able to work with it.22:14
keesjIf you go for the xml + dsl language I can also understand it22:14
TakI use glade to generate the initial code, then make any changes by hand22:15
mgedminTak: that's exactly the case where code generation is evil22:16
Protocol-where is the ESC key on the keyboard? to use vi..?22:16
mgedminautomatic code generation is benign (think lex/yacc/bison)22:16
TakProtocol-: the button directly under the d-pad22:16
Protocol-f'Tak: ah yes of course, thanks ;)22:16
Takhow is that case evil?22:16
TakI have code for a decent layout that didn't take me 80 hours to perfect22:17
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mgedminTak: because later you'll want to modify the interface in Glade, and then you will have to reapply all your modifications by hand22:17
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Takno, I don't ever modify the interface in glade after the initial generation22:17
Veggenmmmh. Invalid signature for ?22:17
keesjmgedmin, Look I am not talking about roundtrip gui design and such, but I have done enough gui coding to know that coding gui by hand is not the best option22:17
Takthat's what I meant; all subsequent mods are by hand22:18
mgedminkeesj: I have nothing against loading glade XML files in code22:18
nomisAlso usually the autogenerated variable names suck - of course you can change that in Glade, but at least I am too lazy for that.22:18
mgedminand not much agains having a makefile rule to generate a .c file from the .glade file, provided that nobody modifies the .c file by hand22:18
Takyeah, I change them22:18
nomisand if you have a dialog with 10 entries you don't really need variables entry1 .. entry1022:18
keesjand if you case a little bit about separation of gui and logic and you try to separate them I really don't seen the problem22:18
Takis libglade part of hildon?22:18
sbaturzio2nd question: xmame ask me to press 'ok' to start a game: but where is the keyboard? tapping on the screen doesn't works22:19
Taksbaturzio: left/right on the dpad22:19
Tak(dpad may be/probably is rotated)22:19
sbaturzioTahitibob: thank you!22:19
Taknext release of xmaeme will have a note about that ;-)22:19
tzzgeez maemo-* mailing lists have become noisy lately22:19
sbaturzioTak: thank you!22:19
nomistzz: it will get better when all initial N800 issues are sorted out.22:20
sbaturzioTahitibob: sorry: wrong tab completion ;-)22:20
Protocol-is there anything to rotate the screen?22:20
tzznomis: sure, but I think 10 years are a long time to wait :)22:21
tzzprotocol: no.22:21
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jobihi all22:23
Veggenppl, the last days when I've been doing update, it's only downloaded about 2kb out of my shitload of repositories, and I see no updates. Is this an error, or *hasn't* there been new programs, not even in extras?22:26
tzzveggen: try apt-get update from the command line22:26
tzzas root of course22:26
Veggentzz: Some gpg errors. Among those, a BADSIG from tableteer.22:27
Veggen(but nothing marked as errors).22:27
Veggen"You may want to run apt-get update to fix these problems". dug.22:28
Veggen(that's what I did, just)22:28
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mgedminVeggen: why are you surprised?22:29
mgedminthis is not Debian unstable, you know22:29
Veggenmgedmin: well...I'm just unpatient about things starting to show up from mud-builder, for example :)22:29
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Veggen(I coud use vim, and netdate is handy)22:30
mgedminnetdate or ntpdate?22:30
Veggenntpdate, of course. duh.22:31
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Veggenugh. An strace -f on the apt-get update shows a SIGILL.22:38
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timelessit's fun when apt-get crashes22:40
jobiVeggen: you could try to move /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00_smallcache, it was causing problems at some point22:40
Veggenstill a SIGILL.22:42
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Veggencould I delete a cache?22:45
tzzveggen: take out half your repos and do an update.  If it works, uncomment half of what remains, etc. (do a binary search).  Maybe that will work.22:46
tzzveggen: basically, find what's broken :)22:46
jobiVeggen: does it dump a core?22:48
Veggenwell, cores are disabled per default, not?22:50
jobiVeggen: I don't think so, if you have a core-dumps directory on your mmc22:55
Veggenah, right. the internal or external one?22:56
jobiat least external22:58
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Veggenyah. got a core dump.22:59
Veggennow, I disabled every repository except for the main one.23:00
Veggendidn't help23:00
jobiVeggen: could you fill a bug and attach the core dump? I'll bug marius to take a look23:01
Veggenmm, ok.23:02
jobicool thanks23:02
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Veggenbug 1005.23:11
timelessThis GDB was configured as "--host=i386-pc-solaris2.11 --target=armel-linux".23:13
timelessanyone here familiar w/ how to report a bug in gdb? :)23:14
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Veggenactually I'm not so sure it crashes.23:28
maddlerthe more I use it, the more I like this thunb board23:29
Veggenmmf, it only crashed when I straced it :)23:30
gpddo we know the read/write speed of the N800 - ie. is it worth buying a 150x SD card? or will the cheapest be the same?23:30
maddlergpd, I  was thiking about thath too23:32
maddlerbut then I  found the there is not so much price difference23:32
gpdI am stuck with a $50 Dell voucher and they are a rip off23:32
gpdcan't think of /anything/ that i want from them...23:32
JaffaBT keyboard?23:32
gpdgot elsewhere - sierra :D23:33
myren_what are the best bt keyboards?23:34
myren_portable ones23:34
myren_i need one but havent the foggiest what i'm looking for23:34
gpdmy 'think outside bluetooth sierra' is good so far - fullsize keys23:34
myren_oh fuck23:35
myren_i should buy a twiddler23:35
myren_i've been meaning to do that for a hundred years now23:35
maddlerno... I meant on screen23:36
maddlerbut  thunking about that BT thumb board as well.23:36
maddlerIt should be almost same size of e61 kbd23:36
timelesshrm, i need to get binaries for a release23:36
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myren_one handed chordic keyboard23:37
Jaffaah, like's nelson's developing?23:37
myren__the_ keyboard of cybernaughts23:37
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myren_i'm not familiar with this nelson, nor his undertakings23:37
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nelsonmyren_: who, me?23:37
myren_perhaps.  you are developing a one handed keyboard?23:38
nelsonRight now it has two problems: 1) electronics only support N770, and 2) keyboards have to be custom-made to fit your hand.23:39
* maddler wonders how long akes to get used to that 23:39
nelsonYou can type your name in ten minutes (or more if your true name happens to be aluseyhuilwqheluqarhlasyerliqwyrelwhtlykjasdlfkj).23:40
nelsonI still use the cheat sheet for uncommon punctuation.23:41
myren_i really want a sensor glove for a keyboard23:41
myren_i saw a really amazing prototype at a small ubiquotous home computing conference once23:41
myren_but never heard/saw from them again23:41
nelsonI think you don't.  You need the feedback from a switch.23:41
Veggenppl, what's the timestamps of your last files in /var/lib/apt/lists ?23:42
Veggenexcept for the lock.23:42
nelsonMaybe if the glove had a deformable bit of metal with a snap to it, that might work.23:42
Jaffanelson: Why do the electronics only support the N770? Wasn't it BT, rather than USB?23:42
nelsonIt's not a keyboard HID yet.23:43
myren_BT is frakking impossible for hobbyists, the BT consurtium does their best to make sure its inaccessible to mere mortals.23:43
nelsonStill working on getting that from Taiwan.23:43
Jaffanelson: ah23:43
nelsonmyren_: serial BT is pretty straightforward.23:43
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myren_true enough23:43
nelsonmyren_: just go buy a serial BT module, of which there is at least 5, and you only need to bind the BT mac address to a /dev/rfcommN device.23:44
gpdah ha!  How about a usb-bluetooth for my desktop - might be handy23:44
Veggenit *does* seem like things works.23:44
* Jaffa TVs.23:45
nelsonYep, and you can pick up one for $10-$15.23:45
Veggenit's just that I've been used to it downloading much, so I thought it was a bug when it has downloaded only 2kb for the last 2 days..23:45
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timelesscan someone walk me through using apt? :)23:49
Veggentimeless: sure?23:49
Veggenit's usually as simple as "apt-get install <package-name>" if you know the name.23:50
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ apt-get --ignore-missing install -m alarmd alsa-lib23:50
timelessReading package lists... Done23:50
timelessBuilding dependency tree... Done23:50
timelessE: Couldn't find package alsa-lib23:50
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timelesswhat magical incantation do i need to make it not error when it can't find something (e.g. alsa-lib)23:50
c0ffeeit's just not there23:50
c0ffeeyou have to compile it yourself23:50
c0ffeeget the sources from packages.debian.org23:50
timelessthat's not the point23:51
timelessif it isn't there, i don't want it23:51
timelessi want alarmd23:51
Veggenso, just don't include it on your apt-get install line?23:51
c0ffeeif alarmd depends on alsa-lib you can't have it without alsa23:51
timelessalarmd doesn't23:51
timelessbut my real line has a couple hundred items23:51
timelessi'm not planning on manually removing the fifty or so that aren't there if i can avoid it23:52
c0ffeefor a in $items; do apt-get install $a ; done23:52
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timelessi'd rather not do that if possible23:53
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timeless       -m, --ignore-missing, --fix-missing23:53
timeless              Ignore  missing  packages;  If  packages  cannot  be retrieved or fail the integrity check after retrieval (corrupted package23:53
timeless              files), hold back those packages and handle the result. Use of this option together with -f may produce an error in some sit-23:53
timeless              uations.  If a package is selected for installation (particularly if it is mentioned on the command line) and it could not be23:53
timeless              downloaded then it will be silently held back. Configuration Item: APT::Get::Fix-Missing.23:53
c0ffeeyou're a bit picky :)23:53
timelessam i missing something in my reading of man apt-get?23:54
timelessyes, i am picky23:54
timelessbut i'm usually very explicit about my requirements23:54
maddlerwe don't for sure!23:54
timelessand i usually have what i feeel are fairly valid reasons for them23:54
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timelessalternatively, is there a way to ask a repository to give me all things it has? :)23:56
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