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| |tbb| | how can i change the icon of a bookmark link? | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| |tbb| | forget the last question! | 00:04 |
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| tko | "And a second note: I obviously didn't test it. I'm Linus. I don't do no steenking testing.." | 00:17 |
| Jaffa | nelson: interesting blog post ("Hireling priests" | 00:18 |
| c0ffee | jaffa | 00:19 |
| Jaffa | lo c0ffee | 00:19 |
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| c0ffee | only a few hours left until you can order your 800 | 00:19 |
| Jaffa | Fingers crossed, anyway. | 00:19 |
| c0ffee | haha | 00:19 |
| c0ffee | if you don't get one, nearly nobody will | 00:20 |
| * Jaffa wonders if it'll be like Ferenc's Maemo 3.0 announcement and come shortly after 00:00 GMT | 00:20 | |
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| Jaffa | c0ffee: thanks :) | 00:20 |
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| c0ffee | me too :) | 00:20 |
| Jaffa | :) | 00:20 |
| * Jaffa crosses his fingers foreach my $nick (@{ /who }) | 00:21 | |
| |tbb| | how can i activate gtalk for an googlemail account dont find the option.... | 00:21 |
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| c0ffee | what do you mean by activate? | 00:22 |
| c0ffee | it should just work | 00:22 |
| inz | yeah | 00:22 |
| inz | it should "just work" for "google services for your domain" -accounts too | 00:23 |
| c0ffee | does gmail still require invitations btw? | 00:23 |
| inz | No idea | 00:23 |
| Jaffa | c0ffee: I believe so, although you can get one via SMS (in the US), IIRC | 00:24 |
| inz | I have 95 invites, and no one to invite ;) | 00:24 |
| c0ffee | i have 98 left | 00:24 |
| |tbb| | is there a mplayer out now 4 the n800 | 00:24 |
| * Jaffa is still at 100, not given one out for ages. | 00:25 | |
| |tbb| | anybody else got the problem that kismet everytime stop working after a few minutes sniffing? (on a n800) | 00:25 |
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| s-ndh-c | |tbb|: doesnt it tell you why? | 00:29 |
| s-ndh-c | i mean doesnt it print something to the console? | 00:29 |
| |tbb| | dont remember, i will sniff now and tell u later | 00:29 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 00:29 |
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| wumpus | |tbb|: something puts it out of monitoring mode it appears | 00:34 |
| wumpus | maybe the connection applet | 00:35 |
| |tbb| | just curios, why kismet wont go into monitor mode automaticly | 00:36 |
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| |tbb| | kismet error says: localhost 2051 TCP error: socket Return EOF, server has closed the connection | 00:48 |
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| c0ffee | man, watching the maillog is boring again | 00:51 |
| Tak | tko: yeah, having to commit stuff to svn is kind of... | 00:51 |
| inz | c0ffee, wathing maillog makes me think of Monty Python... | 00:51 |
| c0ffee | why? | 00:52 |
| inz | c0ffee, "Spam, spam, spam, lovely spaaaammm...." | 00:52 |
| c0ffee | yeah :) | 00:53 |
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| c0ffee | i hope the props for my heli arrive tommorow | 00:54 |
| |tbb| | wumpus does it say something for u? | 00:56 |
| wumpus | yeah I remember I got the same error | 00:57 |
| |tbb| | :/ never had did at my n770 | 00:58 |
| MDK | inz: do you know perhaps, if there is a way to "migrate" your gmail/calendar/docs account to "services for your domain" ? | 00:59 |
| inz | MDK, afaik no, but my k on the subject is pretty lacking | 01:01 |
| inz | Ahh, god bless video services, I just had to see the "spam" sketch | 01:02 |
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| c0ffee | actually, only one spam made it to the maillog in the last hour | 01:05 |
| c0ffee | Jan 21 23:50:28 nyx sm-mta[5824]: l0LMnjFC005824: rejecting commands from 219-86-44-19.dynamic.tfn.net.tw [219.86.44.19] due to pre-greeting traffic | 01:05 |
| c0ffee | and it failed to even wait for my server to greet properly | 01:05 |
| inz | MDK, hmm, google docs cannot actually be used with "your domain" account | 01:05 |
| s-ndh-c | is it enough to do just strip binarypath/* to strip the unneeded symbols away? | 01:06 |
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| c0ffee | .so files can have symbols as well | 01:07 |
| c0ffee | and sometimes you have binaries in libexec/ etc | 01:07 |
| s-ndh-c | yeah did that for lib/* too | 01:07 |
| s-ndh-c | it reduced the overall size to 9mb from 21 | 01:07 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 01:07 |
| c0ffee | and renders debugging impossible | 01:08 |
| s-ndh-c | wow the managed code part of mono is 55mb i guess i will have to remove the assemblys i dont use | 01:09 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 01:09 |
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| s-ndh-c | how does that work, nothing is mounted to / | 01:26 |
| s-ndh-c | wtf | 01:26 |
| s-ndh-c | oh | 01:26 |
| s-ndh-c | iam blind | 01:26 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 01:26 |
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| s-ndh-c | but df doesnt work on / | 01:30 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 01:30 |
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| s-ndh-c | i guess if have to use du instead and then substract what i shows from the total memory size | 01:30 |
| c0ffee | what do you want to achieve there? | 01:31 |
| |tbb| | how can i get the count of files of the current directory from commandline? | 01:31 |
| s-ndh-c | i want to see how many space is used on the internal flash | 01:31 |
| c0ffee | files as in not directories? | 01:31 |
| Jaffa | |tbb|: ls | wc -l | 01:32 |
| c0ffee | that doesn't include hidden files :) | 01:32 |
| Jaffa | c0ffee: smart alec ;-) | 01:32 |
| nomis | echo * .??* | wc -l | 01:33 |
| c0ffee | find -maxdepth 1 -type f | wc -l | 01:33 |
| nomis | (if there are no whitespace in filenames) | 01:33 |
| nomis | eh. Make that | wc | 01:34 |
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| nomis | or even better - use another solution :) | 01:34 |
| c0ffee | touch break\ nomis\ method | 01:34 |
| |tbb| | thx | 01:34 |
| s-ndh-c | i guess ls * .* would work too or am i wrong? | 01:34 |
| maddler | hey all! :D | 01:34 |
| c0ffee | touch "$(echo -e 'and break\nmine')" | 01:35 |
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| Jaffa | s-ndh-c: no, you'd need ls -d to stop it listing the contents of directories (e.g. . and .. at a minimum) | 01:35 |
| maddler | a quick question... any clue if there is a way to only upload a file using flasher? | 01:35 |
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| maddler | I have an error on /etc/init.d/minircS which makes my 770 reboot as soon as the boot process is completed... | 01:36 |
| Jaffa | maddler: doh | 01:36 |
| maddler | Jaffa: hehehehe :D | 01:36 |
| |tbb| | damn second reboot in a short time of using n800 | 01:36 |
| |tbb| | without intaractivity | 01:36 |
| maddler | ok... looks like I'm going to reflesh the whole stuff :D | 01:37 |
| |tbb| | can i look anywhere why this always happend? | 01:37 |
| maddler | tbb... not AFAIK | 01:37 |
| s-ndh-c | i guess there is nothing like syslog or something | 01:38 |
| Jaffa | |tbb|; there's a wiki page on reporting reboot issues, things like /etc/bootreason and some /proc stuff | 01:38 |
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| s-ndh-c | as that would kill the flash pretty fast i guess | 01:38 |
| c0ffee | s-ndh-c, you can just use the Memory thingy in the control panel | 01:38 |
| s-ndh-c | c0ffee: will try that | 01:39 |
| vittorio | shouldnt a swap partition kill the flash pretty fast too? | 01:39 |
| |tbb| | hmmh, xterm wont loading now again, maybee because im connected to ac | 01:39 |
| s-ndh-c | but i think my mono build will not fit onto the flash anyways :) will just clean and configure with another prefix like /media/mmc1/mono or such | 01:39 |
| s-ndh-c | vittorio: maybe they use a swapfile on a ramdisk or something | 01:40 |
| s-ndh-c | er | 01:40 |
| s-ndh-c | forget that | 01:40 |
| vittorio | heh | 01:41 |
| s-ndh-c | that wouldnt make anysense | 01:41 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 01:41 |
| c0ffee | |tbb|, find -maxdepth 1 -type f -print0 | xargs -n 1 -0 stat -c "%a\n" | wc -l | 01:41 |
| c0ffee | |tbb|, that should work in most cases :) | 01:42 |
| s-ndh-c | andy why in hell does there exist a /media/mmc2? i didnt find a second cardslot | 01:42 |
| s-ndh-c | -y | 01:42 |
| c0ffee | on the 800? | 01:42 |
| s-ndh-c | no 770 | 01:42 |
| s-ndh-c | its nothing mounted there but the os2006 second release image contains that dir somehow | 01:42 |
| MDK | s-ndh-c: you can get rid of the mdb assemblies | 01:43 |
| c0ffee | maybe an pre-announcement of the 2nd slot in the 800 | 01:43 |
| s-ndh-c | c0ffee: hehe | 01:43 |
| s-ndh-c | MDK: thats a good idea | 01:44 |
| s-ndh-c | and maybe i can kick out libgdi+ and the SWF assemblys too | 01:45 |
| s-ndh-c | will use gtk# anyways | 01:45 |
| s-ndh-c | MDK: do you know if there is a usable binding for hildon? | 01:46 |
| Jaffa | |tbb|: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ReportingRebootIssues | 01:46 |
| |tbb| | k, thx | 01:47 |
| * Jaffa gahs at weird regexp problems in mud-builder. <grumble/> | 01:48 | |
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| Jaffa | Aha! | 01:59 |
| |tbb| | http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com/2007/01/orb-fixes-youtube-on-n800.html anyone tried that? | 02:00 |
| Jaffa | Well, it's Monday 22nd January (at least in Europe). Developer Discount Day. | 02:02 |
| c0ffee | \o/ | 02:02 |
| c0ffee | the maemo 3.0 announcement took about 15mins to get through | 02:03 |
| maddler | |tbb|: not yet... | 02:03 |
| maddler | Jaffa: yess!!! | 02:03 |
| c0ffee | maybe some maemo core member would enlighten us whether we can go to bed safely now | 02:04 |
| c0ffee | or whether it's worth staying awake | 02:04 |
| * Jaffa 's just introduced another mud bug so'll fix that and check it in first. | 02:04 | |
| maddler | Jaffa: do you have the link? | 02:05 |
| |tbb| | maddler if i understand it correctly i do need a xp box? | 02:05 |
| maddler | |tbb|: just saw the news on planet.maemo.org didn't had the time to go further | 02:05 |
| s-ndh-c | how does that work? do they just give out those n800 for the first people who apply for that? or do they want to see any references? | 02:14 |
| s-ndh-c | i guess the second | 02:14 |
| s-ndh-c | :)( | 02:14 |
| c0ffee | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/N800DeveloperDeviceProgram | 02:14 |
| maddler | that would be kinda nice to get one... | 02:17 |
| s-ndh-c | hehe i guess i will have to find some that spends me one as i dont think iam that valueable to be under those 500 | 02:17 |
| maddler | hehehe... I'm not sure that porting dropbear/VIM/Aircrack is enough to get one... | 02:18 |
| minra | might as well ask, if you want one | 02:19 |
| maddler | minra: You bet I want one... 770 was the device I always dreamed of... | 02:20 |
| maddler | :) | 02:20 |
| minra | same here. and i'll probably keep mine | 02:20 |
| maddler | and I wouldn't sell it in order to get money to pay for the N880 | 02:20 |
| maddler | hehehe... | 02:20 |
| maddler | 770 is a great device... | 02:20 |
| minra | i was using it a lot in bars when i didn't have DSL and people would always come up to me and ask about it | 02:21 |
| s-ndh-c | hehe | 02:21 |
| minra | i wish they'd promoted it more alongside their phones -- they have huge retail presence | 02:21 |
| s-ndh-c | the n800 has sd not mmc right? | 02:22 |
| minra | 2x sd | 02:22 |
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| facenew | OT: a 30-min movie mocking kim jong il and his secret agent buying something from china: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EE52D9ED01495685 | 02:22 |
| s-ndh-c | does it support big cards over 4gb? | 02:22 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o c0ffee | 02:23 | |
| *** c0ffee sets mode: +b *!*@222.188.134.230 | 02:23 | |
| *** facenew was kicked by c0ffee (oh no! you've gone back in time to when the channel didn't have you in it) | 02:23 | |
| *** c0ffee sets mode: -b *!*@85.105.189.140 | 02:24 | |
| *** c0ffee sets mode: -o c0ffee | 02:24 | |
| maddler | c0ffee: hit hiom hard! :D | 02:25 |
| maddler | s/hiom/him/ | 02:25 |
| s-ndh-c | hehe | 02:26 |
| Tak | right now it looks like you need to flash a custom kernel to get SDHC support | 02:26 |
| s-ndh-c | Tak: i see but 2x sd is better than one mmc | 02:27 |
| s-ndh-c | :) | 02:27 |
| Tak | indeed | 02:27 |
| s-ndh-c | cant wait to get my fingers on one of those n800s | 02:28 |
| Tak | not that difficult to flash the kernel, either | 02:28 |
| c0ffee | just buy one :) | 02:28 |
| s-ndh-c | c0ffee: yeah but i will have to wait some weeks/month to get the money togheter | 02:29 |
| c0ffee | so, I doubt the developer program mails go out before morning | 02:30 |
| c0ffee | thus, g'n8 everyone | 02:30 |
| Tak | night | 02:30 |
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| maddler | c0ffee: hehe... I'm hardly keeping myself away from that "buy now" button! | 02:30 |
| s-ndh-c | just bought a new tft screen | 02:30 |
| s-ndh-c | nn c0ffee | 02:30 |
| maddler | bye c0ffee | 02:30 |
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| maddler | |tbb|: does kismet show you something when it stops working? | 02:41 |
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| * Jaffa beds, since mud's bug's fixed :-) | 03:19 | |
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| Fenix-Dark | hey | 05:43 |
| Fenix-Dark | can the 770 connect to samba shares? | 05:43 |
| vittorio | Fenix-Dark, theres a wiki page for mounting smb shares at maemo.org | 05:46 |
| Fenix-Dark | ok | 05:47 |
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| Fenix-Dark | vittorio, think you could point me to it? i could only find how to access window's shares w/NFS * CIFS | 06:07 |
| Fenix-Dark | &* | 06:07 |
| bdb__ | did anybody run into issues with installing maemo-explicit? | 06:07 |
| bdb__ | i'm not able to install it on the fresh X86 SDK, following the manual installation instructions posted at http://repository.maemo.org/stable/bora/INSTALL.txt | 06:08 |
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| klaatu | one thing I really miss about my 770 vs n800 is having the magnet sensor to enter the low power state... | 06:10 |
| [mbm] | klaatu: agreed. | 06:34 |
| [mbm] | added a menu item to put my 800 in suspend mode | 06:35 |
| gpd | what is the equivalent 'low power state' on N800? 'offline/no bluetooth/locked keys' ? | 06:35 |
| [mbm] | if you leave it idle it only dims the screen; it's still online | 06:36 |
| [mbm] | and it's still waiting for key presses | 06:36 |
| [mbm] | what you want is for it to basically switch off, but resume where you left it | 06:37 |
| klaatu | [mbm], what command did you run to enter suspend state... | 06:37 |
| [mbm] | klaatu: echo standby > /sys/power/state | 06:37 |
| klaatu | duh | 06:37 |
| klaatu | thanks | 06:37 |
| klaatu | if you disconnect the network it seems to magically reconnect a few minutes later | 06:38 |
| klaatu | and I even turned off the network search feature... | 06:38 |
| [mbm] | did it as a 4 line script: "#!/bin/sh" "cat << EOF | sudo gainroot" "echo standby > /sys/power/state" "EOF" | 06:38 |
| [mbm] | and then scribbled an entry in /usr/share/applications/hildon so it showed up in the menu | 06:39 |
| [mbm] | seems to work fine | 06:39 |
| klaatu | I haven't put ssh or xterm on my n800 yet, I guess had better do that first... :-) | 06:39 |
| [mbm] | would have rathered it be part of the power hotkey or poweroff menu | 06:39 |
| [mbm] | you can uncomment a few lines and add 'soft poweroff' and 'reboot' to the poweroff menu but the soft power off is 'act dead' .. doesn't actually power down | 06:40 |
| klaatu | with the 770 I would flip the cover over but not close it all the way, then when I was done listening to music it was very quick to suspend it... | 06:41 |
| [mbm] | n800 seems designed for 'always on' best I could manage with the defaults is the 'lock keys' mode | 06:42 |
| klaatu | the problem is that 'always on' == 'always dead battery'... | 06:47 |
| nelson | well, even with the magnet in the lid, it's always on. | 06:53 |
| [mbm] | plus if you bump it while idle it just switches on until it goes idle again | 06:54 |
| [mbm] | anyone tried usb host mode on the 800 yet? | 06:55 |
| Tak | rumor is that the host mode stuff isn't actually connected on the n800 | 06:55 |
| [mbm] | yeah, I was trying to follow some of those threads, couldn't find anyone who actually tried it | 06:56 |
| * [mbm] downloads the kernel sources | 07:02 | |
| soleblaze | yeah..the n800 needs a hard case | 07:02 |
| obra | I've been using a hollowed-out moleskine | 07:10 |
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| nelson | You mean one of the bigger ones, I hope. | 07:10 |
| Tak | a hollowed-out gourd with hinges would be the best case ever | 07:10 |
| obra | nelson: no. I took all the paper out of the small one. it's almost exactly the right size | 07:11 |
| Tak | ooo, or the casing from an original gamebo | 07:14 |
| Tak | y | 07:14 |
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| bmidgley | soleblaze: I thought I saw a detachable hard screen cover as an option | 07:32 |
| soleblaze | dunno..supposedly some kinda attachable case flip case thing is supposed to come out soon | 07:34 |
| bmidgley | yeah flip case... someone had a link to the european store that had it | 07:34 |
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| keesj | Hi | 07:52 |
| [mbm] | hmm never noticed before that tapping the app menu with your finger brought up a larger menu | 07:56 |
| Tak | ditto | 07:57 |
| Tak | oh - it doesn't on 770, that's why | 07:57 |
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| soleblaze | fun trying to find a jabber server that allows ssl, and has aim and yahoo transports..hm | 08:02 |
| gpd | [mbm]: your es | 08:08 |
| gpd | [mbm]: your standby trick seems to work infrequently | 08:08 |
| gpd | [mbm]: often it just required a bootup :( | 08:09 |
| [mbm] | yeah playing around here .. if you leave it in standby too long it seems to reboot | 08:09 |
| [mbm] | probably a watchdog issue | 08:09 |
| gpd | yes - that is what i find too | 08:10 |
| [mbm] | 30 seconds is fine, somewhere around a minute it reboots | 08:10 |
| gpd | [mbm]: if you come up with a solution could you post it to the wiki ? :) | 08:14 |
| [mbm] | sure | 08:14 |
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| dottedmag | gpd: try jabber.ru, it has bunch of transports | 08:15 |
| soleblaze | buggy buggy buggy.. | 08:16 |
| soleblaze | dottedmag: thanks | 08:16 |
| dottedmag | s/gpd/soleblaze/ :) | 08:16 |
| dottedmag | soleblaze: btw, nice thing is allports.jabber.ru. Connect to any port, and you'll get the STARTTLS-aware jabber connection. | 08:17 |
| soleblaze | ooh. | 08:18 |
| soleblaze | man psi is a pos..heh | 08:20 |
| soleblaze | ok there it goes..kinda.. the transports don't seem to be registering though | 08:21 |
| soleblaze | I wonder how rushed the n800 was | 08:39 |
| soleblaze | ok there it goes | 08:39 |
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| keesj | soleblaze, I also wonder about the relation between google and maemo | 08:42 |
| soleblaze | I'm sure Nokia gets some kinda kickback for having the search bar | 08:43 |
| keesj | but the talk client is even more investment. | 08:45 |
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| soleblaze | didn't the 770 have a jabber client? | 08:47 |
| soleblaze | or did it have google chat also? | 08:47 |
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| WillySilly | 770 had jabber/gtalk | 08:48 |
| [mbm] | hmm some interesting comments in the kernel sources about switching the n800 to usb host mode | 08:50 |
| [mbm] | seems otg support in the driver is incomplete and that switching the mode isn't done in software but is instead done by the hardware; eg, the type of cable connected | 08:52 |
| keesj | is it know if the 800 it support host mode? | 08:53 |
| [mbm] | looks like it might in the future | 08:54 |
| [mbm] | current kernel is only compiled with peripheral support | 08:54 |
| soleblaze | host mode sounds like a pita | 08:57 |
| soleblaze | what do people use hostmode for on 770s? | 08:57 |
| [mbm] | to plug in all sorts of n ifty usb gadgets | 08:58 |
| soleblaze | yeah but don't you then have to setup a seperate dongle with power and everything? | 08:58 |
| soleblaze | doesn't sound very portable | 08:58 |
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| [mbm] | well, 770 requires power injection, which basically means a battery | 08:59 |
| [mbm] | http://pastebin.com/864739 .. some comments from the kernel about the musb driver's otg support | 09:00 |
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| [mbm] | technically the usb connector should be a mini-ab (it's currently a mini-b) but that seems to just be a mechanical issue | 09:01 |
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| [mbm] | hmm that's cute, there's a switch hidden inside the battery cover | 09:10 |
| [mbm] | device can probe if you've taken the cover off | 09:10 |
| jacques | I noticed it wouldn't recognize my internal SD card until I put the back cover on | 09:14 |
| [mbm] | small magnet in the middle of the n800's battery cover | 09:14 |
| jacques | neat | 09:14 |
| [mbm] | was wondering why but I suppose you just explained it | 09:14 |
| tigert | yeah | 09:16 |
| tigert | so that you dont pull the card if swap is on, it has at least a chance of telling you | 09:16 |
| tigert | inz, awake yet? | 09:17 |
| c0ffee | moin | 09:20 |
| tigert | moin | 09:21 |
| c0ffee | somebody got a discount code yet? | 09:21 |
| soleblaze | probably would later int he day | 09:22 |
| soleblaze | hey hm | 09:22 |
| soleblaze | is there a way to edit the program menu? | 09:22 |
| c0ffee | you can move around the corresponding config files | 09:23 |
| [mbm] | it's /usr/share/applications | 09:23 |
| soleblaze | thanks | 09:23 |
| * cesman ponders why n800 is going out to lunch when he tries to enable bluetooth | 09:26 | |
| c0ffee | cesman, http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ReportingRebootIssues | 09:27 |
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| cesman | c0ffee: thanks | 09:37 |
| cesman | phuck...things was working so well | 09:37 |
| cesman | no, it won't connect to my phone... | 09:37 |
| cesman | rather it sees my phone, but not the DUN connection | 09:38 |
| inz | starblaze, there's also "Navigation" in control panel, which has a "Organise" button | 09:42 |
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| elpaso | Good morning! | 10:09 |
| keesj | Hi | 10:11 |
| elpaso | I think some people is waiting for an email ;) | 10:11 |
| keesj | yes | 10:12 |
| elpaso | At least they should be GMT+1, right? | 10:12 |
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| keesj | they are not very good in such communication | 10:13 |
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| elpaso | Yeah, probably too busy for MKTG campaigns | 10:13 |
| c0ffee | well, last time it took them months | 10:13 |
| keesj | they don't understand the timezone thing , | 10:13 |
| c0ffee | so we probably can't complain this time | 10:13 |
| keesj | and I don't understand why they don't understand. | 10:14 |
| keesj | they live in a different world. | 10:14 |
| elpaso | It's a cold world | 10:14 |
| c0ffee | are we a bit frustrated? :) | 10:15 |
| keesj | cold and hard, it is almost impossible to do such thing "right" | 10:15 |
| keesj | that is what I keep telling myself | 10:15 |
| c0ffee | as long as i get a mail, i'll label it "right" :) | 10:16 |
| elpaso | I just hope this evening we all willl be happy and forget all this | 10:16 |
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| keesj | I just love google | 10:34 |
| Jaffa | Couldn't do my job without it. | 10:37 |
| * Jaffa remembers the bad old days, pre-AltaVista :-/ | 10:37 | |
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| [mbm] | yahoo, lycos, ecite .. | 10:37 |
| Jaffa | Then we all realised that AltaVista was a bit sucky too. <sigh /> | 10:38 |
| [mbm] | I just don't care for how google is everywhere now and hiding google-analytics on various sites | 10:38 |
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| keesj | [mbm], I don't understand what you are trying to say, the problem is that google is a little oubiquitous | 10:40 |
| [mbm] | yep | 10:41 |
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| keesj | I would really dislike somebody to take over my "net" identity | 10:42 |
| keesj | and all it really takes are a few passwords | 10:42 |
| [mbm] | I hate things like cookies and demographics where someone is spying on me for profit | 10:44 |
| [mbm] | that, and the web has become so commercalized that it's impossible to view most sites without ad blockers and popup blockers to eliminate the crap | 10:45 |
| c0ffee | it's much better when they spy on you for the fun of it | 10:45 |
| [mbm] | c0ffee: honestly, yes | 10:45 |
| [mbm] | just the simple concept of me being unwittingly involved in someone elses profit | 10:46 |
| [mbm] | what do I get in return? | 10:46 |
| keesj | [mbm],I have been paid the last 8 years to work for the web | 10:47 |
| keesj | so that is wat I got in return,but I still don't understand the ecosystem of the web | 10:47 |
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| keesj | [mbm], do you get paid thanks to the web? | 10:48 |
| c0ffee | maybe everything looks better after a cup of coffee | 10:48 |
| [mbm] | keesj: I work for a company that sells networking equipment; indirectly yes | 10:49 |
| [mbm] | I suppose the simplest way to state the problem is the presenation to the end user | 10:50 |
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| [mbm] | the economy of the web is all about attracting customers with hip new content while exploring the data mining inherent in a digital medium .. try to gain as much information and cram as much advertising as you can without pissing off the user | 10:51 |
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| keesj | it's pretty weird, for example Jaffa now is in my quick contact on gmail | 10:56 |
| keesj | I did not do it myself , but I an see if he is online and or active. | 10:58 |
| keesj | that is pretty scary if you ask me. | 10:58 |
| Jaffa | keesj: indeed, but I think that's quite cool: if you email someone a lot, you can talk to them online without further action. | 10:58 |
| Jaffa | Although, a little creepy, as you say :) | 10:58 |
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| [mbm] | the thought of always being online and carrying your network everywhere is even scarier | 10:59 |
| [mbm] | there's times when I don't want to be easily reached on every whim | 11:00 |
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| keesj | but the same happend in google calendar , I typed a meeting like "meeting with bos@company get more money". and and email was sent. perhaps there was a popup but I did not see it | 11:00 |
| keesj | and what happens if your gmail profile is matched with ads on normal pages? | 11:02 |
| [mbm] | targeted advertising; don't pretend like it hasn't alterady happened | 11:03 |
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| [mbm] | advertisers can know hwo you are, what sites you've visted and what you've purchased lately | 11:03 |
| keesj | "get your free copy of playboy" | 11:04 |
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| [mbm] | amazon has a cute trick where if you leave an item in checkout too long the price goes up, because they know you're going to purchase it | 11:04 |
| keesj | alright, once I have the n800, I will create a new identity | 11:05 |
| keesj | cut with the past! | 11:05 |
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| keesj | Jaffa, do you want to use the extras repository for mud? | 11:07 |
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| Jaffa | keesj; yes, but I've not heard back from garage@maemo.org about upload privileges yet | 11:09 |
| Jaffa | And I didn't want to upload things *quite* yet (although I think we're very close) | 11:09 |
| keesj | Jaffa, I was invited at some point , check your settings on garage | 11:10 |
| keesj | If i login onto garage and go to my profile page I have this invitation. but I guess different people will build the package for different target.or do you think we need ad dedicate server? | 11:12 |
| Jaffa | keesj: I'd imagined someone on the mud-builder team (which I'm happy to make you ;-)) would do `mud -a build' and then the upload. Splitting that to different targets (PC/ARMEL and mistral/scirocco/bora/...) would make sense. | 11:14 |
| keesj | https://garage.maemo.org/my/contrib.php | 11:14 |
| Jaffa | Nope :-( | 11:15 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:23 |
| keesj | that is great! (dutch) seeing with your thong http://noorderlicht.vpro.nl/artikelen/4065930/ how about that for a GUI! | 11:23 |
| dwd | keesj: I hope you mean "Tongue". Although "thong" would be stereotypically Dutch. :-) | 11:25 |
| dwd | keesj: ("tong" looks like it would be pronounced the same as "tongue". "thong", on the other hand, is skimpy underwear) | 11:26 |
| Jaffa | Mmm, skimpy underwear. | 11:26 |
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| keesj | I am honestly sorry for my bad English. if it is of any recomfort my french and dutch are worse | 11:28 |
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| c0ffee | hey, french would be fun | 11:29 |
| dwd | keesj: Trust me, my Dutch is *way* worse than your English. Besides, seeing with my underwear was almost as interesting. | 11:29 |
| c0ffee | /topic Welcome to the FRENCH speaking maemo channel :) | 11:29 |
| keesj | lol | 11:30 |
| Jaffa | Bienvenue a #maemo, francais est la langue du choix! (hmm, very very bad) | 11:30 |
| dwd | c0ffee: Je parle un peu de français, mais pas un oeuf. | 11:31 |
| [mbm] | je ne parle pas francais | 11:31 |
| * dwd thinks that maybe cross-language puns are not a good thing. | 11:31 | |
| Jaffa | dwd: perhaps not | 11:32 |
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| c0ffee | je comprend la francais, mais je parle seulement un petit peu | 11:33 |
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| keesj | nokia n880 l'ordinateur web de poche pour naviger l'internet | 11:35 |
| dwd | But anyway, that research project looks fascinating. Placing an electrode grid (12x12) on the tongue and using it to "display" an image; the tongue being sensitive enough for the person to figure out what the image is. Says something (I think) about the potential resolution being much better than they're doing. | 11:36 |
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| sbaturzio | Aloha! | 11:39 |
| Jaffa | Anyone got a discount code yet? ;-) | 11:40 |
| keesj | dwd, I guess the penis is an other sensitive place the hacker should use a little more | 11:40 |
| c0ffee | not me | 11:40 |
| Jaffa | I think this question should be asked once hour ) | 11:40 |
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| Jaffa | +"per" | 11:41 |
| c0ffee | +":" | 11:43 |
| zuh | I've managed to not get overexited on the matter. For example, I've only checked my spam folder three times (just in case) and it's already noon! | 11:44 |
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| Jaffa | c0ffee: indeed | 11:45 |
| Jaffa | zuh: yeah, that's nice and calm behaviour | 11:45 |
| * Jaffa hasn't checked his yet, mainly cos he *really* should be working, and my spam folders are too vast | 11:45 | |
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| maddler | 'morning all... | 12:03 |
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| Jaffa | Morning maddler | 12:07 |
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| osfameron | morning | 12:12 |
| osfameron | I spent some time trying to work out how to retranscode .avis for my n800 | 12:13 |
| osfameron | absolutely no joy. the media player gives me a helpful "Media codec not supported" | 12:13 |
| osfameron | which pipping codec? The audio one? the video one? what codecs would have worked? | 12:13 |
| osfameron | I hate multimedia :-( | 12:13 |
| Jaffa | osfameron: see http://maemo.org/maemowiki/VideoEncoding. In particular http://www.bleb.org/software/770/#encode and http://media-converter.garage.maemo.org/ will both make it easier for you. | 12:15 |
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| * Jaffa checks the N800 is "in stock" on direct.nokia.com - Just In Case. | 12:17 | |
| osfameron | Jaffa: shiny, thanks | 12:18 |
| Jaffa | np | 12:18 |
| maddler | Jaffa: hahahaha... same here... :D | 12:18 |
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| Jaffa | Oooh, there is "Express" delivery option. | 12:20 |
| maddler | yep... | 12:21 |
| * Jaffa might, hypothetically, if I'm lucky, go for that to be delivered to work. | 12:21 | |
| maddler | ordering before 16.30 should be possible to get our n800 by tomorrow :) | 12:21 |
| osfameron | cool, lots of helpful stuff. I was using ffmpeg and swearing a lot. These look like better options | 12:22 |
| * Jaffa 's off work Thursday/Friday so getting any hypothetical device sent there could be a risk... | 12:22 | |
| maddler | Jaffa: you could send it to me then... | 12:22 |
| maddler | :DDD | 12:22 |
| Jaffa | maddler: or just to my house so it's at home in the evening ;-) | 12:22 |
| Jaffa | (assuming Mrs Jaffa is in) | 12:23 |
| maddler | hehe | 12:23 |
| c0ffee | anybody got a mail? | 12:37 |
| Jaffa | c0ffee: nope | 12:38 |
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| dwd | I have 500. Wow. | 12:38 |
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| Jaffa | dwd: ebay! | 12:38 |
| dwd | Jaffa: E-bay-tastic! | 12:39 |
| c0ffee | buhu :( | 12:39 |
| c0ffee | the good thing is, as long as jaffa doesn't have one, they haven't been sent | 12:39 |
| X-Fade | tigert, bergie: anyone awake? | 12:39 |
| dwd | c0ffee: That's my theory, too. | 12:39 |
| Jaffa | c0ffee: Pah, two problems with that: 1) I'm not sure Nokia share that view; 2) my spam filters are quite aggressive on things like "we'd like to offer you this limited time special offer. For the low low price of 99EUR, ..., just click this link..." | 12:40 |
| c0ffee | i bet they wait until i have to go to the maths department | 12:43 |
| c0ffee | the diaspora | 12:43 |
| c0ffee | without wlan | 12:43 |
| ab | :-) | 12:50 |
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| tigert | X-Fade: aye | 13:00 |
| tigert | c0ffee: nobody got a mail yet | 13:01 |
| tigert | Jaffa: yea, I agree some spam filtering might be an issue :) | 13:01 |
| tigert | better not let marketing touch the content | 13:02 |
| Jaffa | :) | 13:02 |
| c0ffee | tigert, does the source of your information know when the mails will be send? :) | 13:02 |
| tigert | I think not | 13:03 |
| tigert | "when the selection part is done" is my guess | 13:03 |
| tigert | and I agree this is a nasty way of doing community stuff :P | 13:04 |
| Jaffa | Presumably they're not still doing it, on the day of the release? That'd be shocking.... SHOCKING, I say. | 13:04 |
| * Jaffa has never, ever, been involved in software products like that. | 13:04 | |
| tigert | of the day of what release? | 13:04 |
| Jaffa | tigert: well, the codes. | 13:04 |
| c0ffee | the first wave of the codes | 13:06 |
| c0ffee | in case you're still wondering who this c0ffee guy is | 13:06 |
| c0ffee | jochen@penguin-breeder.org will do | 13:06 |
| dottedmag | nice way to separated sheeps and goats. | 13:07 |
| dottedmag | *separate | 13:07 |
| keesj | what is wrong with sheeps? | 13:08 |
| dottedmag | nevermind | 13:09 |
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| lardman | Has anyone sought help from Ti with regard to the Linux DSP toolchain? | 13:29 |
| lardman | They point questions to a yahoo groups group (OMAP), but the mailing list in this group seems to consist solely of spam | 13:29 |
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| Guardian | morning all | 13:30 |
| Jaffa | lo Gu | 13:30 |
| Jaffa | +ardian | 13:30 |
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| Jaffa | hi florian | 13:30 |
| keesj | how can I see from what repository a package will be installed? | 13:31 |
| Jaffa | Ah, a tricky question. I'm not entirely sure... | 13:32 |
| keesj | and what would be a good section name for screen and irssi? | 13:32 |
| Jaffa | irssi: I liked communication | 13:32 |
| florian | good morning | 13:32 |
| keesj | and screen? | 13:33 |
| Jaffa | keesj: "tools" perhaps for screen? | 13:33 |
| Jaffa | Anyone got any suggestions? The dev community really should try and standardise on non-standard sections, otherwise the Application Manager is useless for anything other than "Show all packages" (IMHO) | 13:33 |
| zuh | keesj: in xterm "apt-cache policy <package>" will tell you, but somehow it misses the difference between the r.m.o bora and extras/bora repositories for example | 13:34 |
| dwd | zuh: Yeah, it seems to truncate the URL. apt-cache showpkg tells you the cache name, from which you can guess. | 13:36 |
| keesj | apt-cache policy lua does not return anything useful (on SDL_AMREL that is) | 13:36 |
| Jaffa | keesj: you'll have to add the -o Dir::Etc:SourcesList if you're using repos not in /etc/apt/sources.list | 13:37 |
| mgedmin | keesj: try fakeroot apt-cache policy | 13:37 |
| mgedmin | apt in maemo is hacked to hide non-user packages if you run it as a user (rather than root) | 13:37 |
| X-Fade | tigert: Have you seen Ferenc lately? I don't get any replies on my questions on the maemo2midgard mailinglist. | 13:38 |
| X-Fade | tigert: I can't do anything else until someone on your side helps me out :) | 13:39 |
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| keesj | thanks I had installed lua directly from a deb so I was not seeing anything ;p | 13:40 |
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| dieguito | so it's 22nd and I can imagine people refreshing their inboxs waiting for the NDDP invitations | 13:52 |
| dwd | dieguito: "refreshing". How quaint. :-) | 13:52 |
| dieguito | dwd: very web 3.11 concept I would say | 13:53 |
| * dwd 's client has no "send and receive" button, being built to take full advantage of 90's technology. | 13:53 | |
| dieguito | :P | 13:53 |
| dwd | dieguito: Yes, if you're using the Web, and you've had your computing infrastructure dragged back to the stone age of batch processing, then I can understand you might have to "refresh". | 13:54 |
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| dieguito | if you are using gmail -for example- you don't _need_ to refresh, but it's available as a link (that probably does nothing) for the nervous tics of the people | 13:55 |
| dwd | dieguito: Well, yes, your browser is refreshing automatically. Sending its batch job to Google's mainframe. | 13:56 |
| Jaffa | Gah, top of my inbox: "Nokia Developer Device Program ..." followed by the word "request". Such emails should be banned today. | 14:00 |
| hap | hmm | 14:03 |
| hap | I installed the last maemo dev appliance, but within the emulator, i have no application (maemo starts well) | 14:03 |
| hap | is that normal, no browser, nothing | 14:03 |
| dwd | Jaffa: I did get a special offer from Nokia in my spam folder, though. I'm not convinced that I should apply for my discounted viagra, though. | 14:04 |
| inz | hap, I guess opera is licensed for the _device_, so they can't really ship it with the sdk | 14:04 |
| dwd | hap: Yes. The dev env only contains the basics, not things like Opera. | 14:04 |
| hap | aah ok | 14:04 |
| hap | wanted to play a little with it, i really have no applications yet :) | 14:04 |
| Jaffa | dwd: Could keep you entertained until you get an N800 | 14:05 |
| hap | exactly | 14:05 |
| hap | trying to see if i should get an N800 myself | 14:05 |
| Jaffa | "Yes" seems to be short answer. | 14:05 |
| c0ffee | any news? | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | The EU is hoping for a Pro-EU coalition in Serbia (World). Most of Tony's cronies are being questioned by police (UK) | 14:07 |
| *** KaL is now known as KaL_lunch | 14:10 | |
| * mgedmin rotfls | 14:11 | |
| Veggen | Hmm. Btw, my N800 has spurious reboots with 32wd_to as bootreason - even when I don't do anything. How can I debug it? | 14:11 |
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| Veggen | ...apart from reflashing, not installing 3rd-party software and see if it disappears? | 14:12 |
| c0ffee | open top in xterm and watch it | 14:12 |
| Veggen | coffee: mm, well. It can stay on for hours, and then suddenly it decides to reboot, even if it has just been laying idle on the desk. | 14:13 |
| mitcheloc | hey guys, i'm eyeing the n800 but i'm not feeling comfortable on youtube playback (which i really want), will the code will be optimized in the near future for video playback? | 14:14 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: possibly, other options are http://www.bleb.org/services/vidconvert/, http://mplayer.garage.maemo.org/ and aleksandyr's upcoming MaemoTube UI | 14:14 |
| Veggen | mitcheloc: noone knows, I guess. It will depend on porting the newest flash to arm, I guess? | 14:14 |
| X-Fade | Veggen: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ReportingRebootIssues | 14:14 |
| X-Fade | Not that much info though. | 14:15 |
| keesj | MaemoTube? | 14:15 |
| mitcheloc | Veggen: do you have an n800? | 14:15 |
| Veggen | mitchelog: yes. | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | keesj: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemotube/ - as far as I know, he's intending for it to be like Obscura or the flickr thing and kick off mplayer to play the selected video | 14:15 |
| Veggen | X-Fade: but lifeguard_resets might have the info I seek? or? | 14:16 |
| X-Fade | Veggen: Yeah, perhaps. The offending process is listed there.. | 14:16 |
| mitcheloc | Veggen: question... how good are the speakers and normal divx playback? | 14:16 |
| Veggen | speakers aren't bad at all. But I'm no audiophile ;) | 14:17 |
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| mitcheloc | fair enough | 14:18 |
| bedboi | anyone has been contacted for the device program? | 14:18 |
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| bedboi | i think that this is the question of the day | 14:18 |
| Jaffa | bedboi: not yet | 14:18 |
| mitcheloc | i'm wondering if i should wait for the chumby, or get a umpc or maybe one of each :) | 14:18 |
| dwd | bedboi: I have, they sent me all 500 offers. | 14:19 |
| mitcheloc | i really want something for my car dashboard | 14:19 |
| dwd | bedboi: Plus they've given me total ownership of Nokia itself. | 14:19 |
| dwd | bedboi: And made me King of Finland. | 14:19 |
| * dwd wonders which part is most likely to be disbelieved. | 14:19 | |
| bedboi | dwd: lol. | 14:19 |
| mitcheloc | Most believed: King of Finland | 14:20 |
| bedboi | ehehe | 14:21 |
| mitcheloc | Jaffa: does maemo tube work well? | 14:21 |
| Veggen | /usr/sbin/dsp_dld -p --disable-restart -c /lib/dsp/dsp_dld_avs.conf : 1 * | 14:21 |
| mitcheloc | oh, not released | 14:21 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: I've not seen it | 14:21 |
| Veggen | that's whay my lifeguiard_resets says. | 14:21 |
| Veggen | urgh. | 14:22 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3843 | 14:22 |
| Jaffa | e.g. http://www.saunalahti.fi/~tsharju/maemotube.png is the screenshot of teemu's version | 14:23 |
| Veggen | Hmm. could it be sound-related? | 14:23 |
| mitcheloc | Jaffa: thanks, thats looks good | 14:24 |
| X-Fade | Veggen: That is only 1 reboot? | 14:24 |
| mitcheloc | Has anyone here checked out the Chumby? | 14:24 |
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| Jaffa | mitcheloc: nope, URL? | 14:25 |
| mitcheloc | www.chumby.com | 14:25 |
| Jaffa | Cunning. | 14:25 |
| Veggen | X-Fade: seems like? That's the only one recorded. | 14:25 |
| mitcheloc | I was thinking if the N800 had a similar widget interface to the chumby it would make a compelling alternative | 14:25 |
| Veggen | X-Fade: but it has happened several times. | 14:26 |
| mitcheloc | you could easily put the n800 by the side of your bed and use it as an alarm clock right? | 14:26 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: something for you to hack on when you get your N800 ;-) | 14:26 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: indeed, I tried that on Saturday night (my phone ran out of battery). Unfortunately Maemochron doesn't seem to listen for power management events and pretty quickly ran down my battery. | 14:26 |
| mitcheloc | Jaffa: it'd be way cooler if everyones n800 had the UI | 14:26 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: well, you release it and we all bow down and worship your wonderfulness. Then you get a cheap N900 ;-) | 14:27 |
| X-Fade | Veggen: My 770 has a few different processes and count (much) larger than 1.. | 14:28 |
| inz | Jaffa, you could also turn off the device for the night | 14:28 |
| Veggen | X-Fade: ok, I'll keep an eye on these files. | 14:28 |
| mitcheloc | Jaffa... hah, it's tempting, but i'm not sure i have the expertise | 14:28 |
| mitcheloc | are the speakers on the n800 loud enough to use for an alarm? | 14:29 |
| Jaffa | inz: There was no clock in the room, so I wanted something I could reach over and tap to see the time (baby was also asleep in the room, and my watch is analogue with no light) | 14:29 |
| Veggen | ...right now, my N800 is at home, though. but I can ssh to it, because it's on my wireless network ;-) | 14:29 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: the ones on the 770 are. | 14:29 |
| inz | Jaffa, ah, then you should just ditch maemochron ;) | 14:29 |
| Jaffa | inz: indeed (or submit a patch, although the source doesn't seem to be in garage). | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | The suggestion recently on maemo-dev of some tool which could tell you if a particular process was being badly behaved in respect of power mgmt would be very handy. | 14:30 |
| Veggen | Hmm. I wonder if my N800 has problems with my wireless network. Anyone else notice that ssh-connections to it just hangs for a while? | 14:30 |
| mitcheloc | so thats a negative on the n800 speakers? | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | mitcheloc: err, no - a positive | 14:31 |
| mitcheloc | i mean to use as an alarm? | 14:31 |
| dwd | Veggen: That might be reverse DNS issues. | 14:31 |
| mitcheloc | it's got to be loud :) | 14:31 |
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| Jaffa | mitcheloc: Yeah, it'd be fine: I've used my 770 as an alarm a couple of times. It's very loud when it's next to your head. | 14:31 |
| Veggen | dwd: ergh, not hanging on login per se, but connections hangs (loses my packets) for longer periods once logged in, too. | 14:31 |
| dwd | Veggen: OIC. Spending too long at work, distinguishing betwene connections and associations. :-) | 14:32 |
| mitcheloc | i suppose i could also can combine it with speakers, any docking stations? (like the ipod) heh | 14:32 |
| X-Fade | Veggen: Try to keep a ping running on your N800 to your router. See if that doesn't have any problems. | 14:36 |
| Veggen | What's the difference between lifeguard_resets and lifeguard_restarts? | 14:36 |
| keesj | Jaffa, I generated libsdl_gfx again , the content of the files looks good | 14:36 |
| keesj | the name of the normal .deb is wrong libsdl-gfx1_2.0.15_armel.deb | 14:37 |
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| keesj | the 1 is not supposed to be there | 14:37 |
| mitcheloc | anyone get asterisk to run on this? :) | 14:37 |
| mitcheloc | (n800) | 14:37 |
| inz | Veggen, lifeguard_restart is when a lifeguarded process is restarted | 14:39 |
| inz | Veggen, _reboot is when a lifeguarded process causes the device to be restarted | 14:39 |
| Veggen | ok, I have many lifeguard_restarts, one lifeguard_reset, no _reboot | 14:40 |
| inz | Err, the _reboot was meant to be _reset | 14:41 |
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| keesj | that chumby really has the "cosy" feeling I want | 14:43 |
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| hap | ok, just bought a N800, should arrive tomorrow. | 14:43 |
| keesj | I just wonder how one is supposed to write | 14:43 |
| hap | can't wait to try nstx/free wifi with it. | 14:44 |
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| keesj | hap, sounds fun | 14:46 |
| hap | keesj: well, having internet at starbuck without paying, yeah sounds all good :) | 14:47 |
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| jait | Veggen: that lifeguard_reset info of yours indicates that the device rebooted because dsp_dld kept dying | 14:53 |
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| Jaffa | keesj: according to Debian naming standards, the "1" is supposed to be there. I *think* it represents ABI level | 15:14 |
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| Jaffa | Did I miss any email over lunch? | 15:21 |
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| inz | Jaffa, you did: "End the annoying ob+esity now" | 15:22 |
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| Jaffa | inz: Damnit, I'm not obese. Looks like I've missed out. | 15:22 |
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| sbaturzio | re | 15:22 |
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| melmoth | Hola. | 15:26 |
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| waite | Does anyone know what "Active Project members" means re the Dev Program? | 15:28 |
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| waite | and have the codes be sent? | 15:30 |
| Jaffa | waite: no & no. | 15:31 |
| waite | well that was easy :) | 15:31 |
| waite | Thx. I apologzie for the noise I actually can't wait for this to be over so silly q's like mine don't fill up my IRC logs. | 15:32 |
| melmoth | anybody already tryed to port sword and/or gnome-sword ? | 15:33 |
| mitcheloc | hap: how often do you go to starbucks? =P | 15:33 |
| X-Fade | Hmm there now is also a sardine-experimental distro.. | 15:34 |
| hap | mitcheloc: not that much, even never. But I just meant "wifi network you must pay to use" | 15:34 |
| mitcheloc | how often are you near one of those? i'm not trying to be critical, just wondering, i love the abilities and freedom we can get from the n800 but i'm still deciding on puchasing...weighing against thinks like my eBook from 7 years ago that I never use anymore | 15:35 |
| mitcheloc | *thinks=things | 15:36 |
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| hap | mitcheloc: i was in london for few days, all the "Pret a manger" had wifi access | 15:36 |
| hap | everytime i get in a train, etc. | 15:36 |
| hap | i usualy have my laptop, but this is smaller. | 15:37 |
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| sbaturzio | mmm....doubt: I'm following the tutorial in http://maemo.org/platform/docs/howtos/Maemo_tutorial_bora.html#Building-for-ARMEL | 15:44 |
| sbaturzio | here is described how to set up the ARMEL target | 15:44 |
| sbaturzio | the question is: this section was already done by the maemo-installer or not? | 15:45 |
| c0ffee | re | 15:46 |
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| c0ffee | sbaturzio, the maemo installer sets up all targets for you | 15:47 |
| sbaturzio | c0ffee: so can I skip that step? | 15:47 |
| maddler | oh... heya c0ffee... | 15:48 |
| c0ffee | hey maddler | 15:50 |
| c0ffee | sbaturzio, you should already have an SDK_ARMEL target | 15:50 |
| c0ffee | sbaturzio, if that's the case, you can just start to develop :) | 15:50 |
| sbaturzio | that's what I want to do ;-) | 15:50 |
| sbaturzio | so I need only to switch the target with sb-menu and to build the deb for the n800 | 15:50 |
| c0ffee | yes, for example | 15:51 |
| sbaturzio | good...now the next step is "learn how to build deb packages" ;-) | 15:52 |
| sbaturzio | c0ffee: thank you | 15:52 |
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| c0ffee | yw | 15:54 |
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| c0ffee | now i have to go over to the math dept | 15:58 |
| c0ffee | :( | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | Maybe that'll let the rest of us get codes ;-) | 15:59 |
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| Veggen | sbaturzio: Check out laika. That's an eclipse-plugin for maemo development. | 15:59 |
| Veggen | I kind of liked it. | 15:59 |
| Veggen | tho I'm not sure how updated the templates are. I made a new one for myself, for Maemo 2.x. | 16:00 |
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| sbaturzio | Veggen: thank you but I'm not so used to big IDE. Still love ViM for my job ;-) | 16:01 |
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| Veggen | sbaturzio: well, actually me too :) But I guess you can steal/look at makefiles etc. for the project. | 16:02 |
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| |tbb| | after i have installed xterm new, like its descripted in maemowiki i dont find my scripts while im logged as user, which stays under /usr/sbin/ ? anz idea why? | 16:12 |
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| sbaturzio | |tbb|: which PATH you have? (echo $PATH) | 16:20 |
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| keesj | I just can't believe this. Can some nokians stop this waiting and just send some information . It must be quite hard to have so poor control over what happens | 16:21 |
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| |tbb| | /usr/bin:bin | 16:24 |
| |tbb| | how to set the path ? | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | |tbb|: export PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin | 16:25 |
| vittorio | how do i decompress the MaemoApliance.7z.001 to .054 files using 7za? | 16:28 |
| |tbb| | doesnt work for me, path still the same | 16:30 |
| Jaffa | |tbb|: that won't be persisted across different shells | 16:31 |
| |tbb| | k, i have this set as user | 16:32 |
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| ||cw | vittorio: where did you download that from? | 16:34 |
| vittorio | ||cw, http://linuxtracker.org/torrents-details.php?id=3468 | 16:36 |
| ||cw | odd, wonder why he did that... | 16:38 |
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| ||cw | it's probably rar | 16:38 |
| ||cw | splitting an image in to peices for torrent is rather pointless | 16:39 |
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| vittorio | others could decompress using 7-zip 4.42 windows version. i have 7za comandline version but cant figure out how to use splitted archives | 16:41 |
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| ||cw | vittorio: try running: unrar e MaemoApliance.7z.001 | 16:41 |
| ||cw | oh, so that's what 7z means | 16:42 |
| Veggen | hmm. Snowing. We actually had a full day without rain or snow, yesterday. First day since october! | 16:42 |
| vittorio | ||cw, unrar output -> MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.001 is not RAR archive | 16:42 |
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| X-Fade | vittorio: Does '7za e MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.001' not work? | 16:46 |
| X-Fade | vittorio: or 7za e MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.* | 16:46 |
| ||cw | vittorio: man 7za, maybe -ei MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.* | 16:47 |
| * Jaffa twiddles his thumbs a bit more | 16:48 | |
| ||cw | or install xarchive, it claims to support 7zip and might make it easier to see how to do it | 16:49 |
| vittorio | all not working :/ | 16:53 |
| vittorio | maybe i have to manually combine the files to one? | 16:54 |
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| sbaturzio | vidar: is p7zip-full installed? | 16:54 |
| X-Fade | vittorio: did you run 'file' on it? | 16:54 |
| X-Fade | What does that say? | 16:54 |
| sbaturzio | vidar: oops sorry, wrong nickname | 16:54 |
| sbaturzio | vittorio: is p7zip-full installed? | 16:55 |
| vittorio | X-Fade, MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.001: 7z archive data, version 0.2 | 16:55 |
| X-Fade | vittorio: and the 2nd one? | 16:55 |
| vittorio | MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.002: data | 16:56 |
| X-Fade | Well, there is your answer ;) | 16:56 |
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| KermitTheFragger | hi all, just a quick nooby question: Is it possible to use gcj with maemo ? | 16:56 |
| vittorio | oh, 7za l MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.001 does something usefull | 16:56 |
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| vittorio | X-Fade, oh, 7za e MaemoAppliance-1.0-6.10.7z.001 works too | 16:57 |
| Jaffa | KermitTheFragger: on the device, or just for development? | 16:57 |
| KermitTheFragger | Jaffa: for development | 16:58 |
| KermitTheFragger | compiling it to machine code and running it on the device | 16:58 |
| KermitTheFragger | would that be possible ? | 16:58 |
| Jaffa | KermitTheFragger: theoretically. There's been work on classpath ports, and JVMs like JamVM. Not seen gcj-produced code running directly, but the appeal is obvious. | 16:59 |
| KermitTheFragger | ok so there is an opening :) thats good to know, thx | 17:00 |
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| c0ffee | re | 17:10 |
| c0ffee | Jaffa, status? | 17:10 |
| Jaffa | No change here. | 17:11 |
| X-Fade | Instead of polling for status. Can't everybody just listen for updates on the channel title? Please? | 17:11 |
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| dwd | X-Fade: Polling is, after all, just so 80's. | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: yeah, all the other in-depth conversation's getting drowned out... ;-) | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | Anyway, we should consider the fact that they've been sent out but no-one here's got one... | 17:12 |
| c0ffee | sure | 17:12 |
| c0ffee | or maybe the complete maemo team commited suicide | 17:13 |
| maddler | damn... power failure here... | 17:14 |
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| maddler | hehehe... | 17:14 |
| maddler | wow... I just got my code!!!! | 17:16 |
| maddler | ghghghghghgh... just joking... :D | 17:16 |
| * c0ffee drops some printed kernel sources on maddler | 17:17 | |
| nelson | Jaffa: thanks! | 17:19 |
| nelson | Jaffa: although ... I think I ought to explain what I think is lacking in 770 programs to say that it "sucks". | 17:20 |
| nelson | "sucks" is such an undefined term. | 17:20 |
| maddler | c0ffee: :DDDDD | 17:20 |
| maddler | btw... I still hope to get one... :) | 17:21 |
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| inz | meh, got frustrated and made a dropbear-client -package that does update-alternatives link for ssh | 17:24 |
| maddler | inz: I'll keep in mind in the next release of dropbear for maemo... | 17:26 |
| Jaffa | nelson: yeah, it's fine as-is for people who agree with you, but... | 17:26 |
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| nelson | Jaffa: sure. I'll write up my list of grievances .... starting with spontaneous rebooting. | 17:29 |
| c0ffee | somehow i never got my 770 to reboot spontaneous | 17:29 |
| c0ffee | and i try real hard sometimes | 17:29 |
| Jaffa | nelson: indeed, paying priests works well if they've got a direct link to the Big Guy and prayers get answered, but if you end up with spontaneous reboots. | 17:30 |
| maddler | c0ffee: it only happened sometimes while browsing w/o swap on | 17:30 |
| c0ffee | hum | 17:30 |
| nelson | c0ffee: I get reboots all the time; most recently when clicking on RSS reader. | 17:31 |
| X-Fade | maddler: I have swap on and almost never have reboots. | 17:31 |
| nelson | c0ffee: and maemo-mapper reliably corrupts the filesystem if I leave it running for more than an hour. | 17:31 |
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| * Disconnect watches his 800 reboot periodically "just because" - dsp related according to the logs | 17:33 | |
| inz | in other news, osso-xterm, the mh series, just got configurable key shortcuts to the toolbar | 17:34 |
| inz | No gui yet, but you can use gconftool | 17:34 |
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| c0ffee | ctrl+alt+del ? :) | 17:34 |
| nelson | c0ffee: more coffee? | 17:34 |
| c0ffee | nah | 17:35 |
| c0ffee | i think i'll spend the next two hours in the gym | 17:35 |
| inz | c0ffee, obviously you can do that too ;) | 17:36 |
| maddler | X-Fade: in fact I said I only had reboot when NO swap :) | 17:40 |
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| X-Fade | maddler: Yeah, duh ;) | 17:41 |
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| maddler | X-Fade: and only while using web browser... | 17:47 |
| c0ffee | can opera display the application catalog wiki page meanwhile? | 17:48 |
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| X-Fade | maddler: I disabled lifeguard-resets, I guess that helps me out a lot. | 17:49 |
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| c0ffee | ah, it does, nice | 17:52 |
| Disconnect | X-Fade: that'd be why, yah :) | 17:54 |
| * konfoo yawns | 17:55 | |
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| maddler | c0ffee: yes... IIRC | 17:58 |
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| c0ffee | the entertaining gui flame ware appears to come to an end | 18:08 |
| c0ffee | how sad | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | Well, I think the OP had some valid points. | 18:11 |
| c0ffee | sure | 18:11 |
| c0ffee | but flames aren't about points :) | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | There are a lot of things that can be done better. He tried to illustrate those with examples. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | So I thought that was worked out pretty well. But stating that GTK basically sucks is another thing ;) | 18:12 |
| dottedmag | Well, my first impression of 770's interface was "This thing is definitely designed by programmers" :) | 18:12 |
| Robot101 | dottedmag: that's not, in fact, the case... | 18:13 |
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| dottedmag | Robot101: designed not in sense "programmers were creating the skins", but in sense "programmers designed all dialogs, menus, overall interaction" | 18:14 |
| Robot101 | no, full-time interaction designers... | 18:14 |
| dottedmag | hmm... it takes >=8 steps to just open the 'note'. | 18:14 |
| glass | might be true for some of the 3rd party apps.. but not for anything nokia | 18:14 |
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| Robot101 | I didn't say I agreed with them, just that they exist and I've worked alongside them. :) | 18:15 |
| roope | Hi. | 18:15 |
| suihkulokki | it's not a notetaking device, it's a web browsing device | 18:15 |
| suihkulokki | ^dottedmag | 18:15 |
| Robot101 | I'm a programmer and I'd do some stuff differently, like not move the finish button around on the wizards... :D | 18:15 |
| roope | Me too. :) And i'm not even a programmer. | 18:16 |
| dottedmag | suihkulokki: well, and RSS isn't qualified as web browsing? | 18:16 |
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| suihkulokki | dottedmag: well maybe I missed what you ment with note | 18:17 |
| roope | Of course, when people are complaining about dialog button it's a good signal in the sense that they aren't complaining about anything disastrous. | 18:17 |
| dottedmag | suihkulokki: menu->utilities->notes, surely | 18:17 |
| zuh | roope: WRONG! Buttons are everything! :) | 18:17 |
| dottedmag | suihkulokki: i just tried to understand what were the areas of most interaction design polishing | 18:18 |
| zuh | And their order in particular | 18:18 |
| Robot101 | roope: that was just something that annoys me every time I reflash the device, so it came to mind 1st. :D | 18:18 |
| roope | If you are talking about this post from Sean, it has some good points definitely, but I don't agree with all of them. Naturally. | 18:18 |
| Jaffa | roope: another alternative if people are complaining about dialogue buttons is that the UI is so broken it's the easiest place to start. | 18:18 |
| Jaffa | ;-) | 18:19 |
| dottedmag | Jaffa: absolutely agree | 18:19 |
| roope | Newton button bar is a classic example of american design. Like when you buy an american car the radio says all the commands in English. | 18:19 |
| roope | Which is very handy for the english-speakers, yes. | 18:19 |
| dottedmag | roope: and when you buy a Russian car, radio sucks if there one. that's tha good comparison | 18:19 |
| roope | Button bars get into craptastic mode when you should translate those into 17 different regions, making sure that they would fit and make sense in all of them. | 18:20 |
| Jaffa | I think Hildon was a decent enough UI at the time, but things like the iPhone demos have shown what can be done by "thinking outside the box", rather than replicating lots of desktop metaphors on a screen which is, frankly, too small (physically) for them to work. Which is why things like the finger menu in OS 2007 are intriguing to me. | 18:20 |
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| roope | In soviet russia, the radio listens to you!! | 18:20 |
| dottedmag | Jaffa: absolutely agree, again. | 18:20 |
| dottedmag | small devices should not copy metahphors of desktop computers. | 18:20 |
| roope | Yes well. It's based on GTK. There are definitel yUI concepts ... but they cannot be implemented using the current widgets. | 18:21 |
| Jaffa | dottedmag: <quote type="reddwarf" character="the-cat">Two good ideas in one lifetime? When you're hot you're hot...</quote> | 18:21 |
| suihkulokki | I have to agree with the startup wizards crappiness. They are the first thing that user encounters, so there should be some more attention payed. | 18:21 |
| roope | So it's a compromise between what can be designed and what can be implemented without breaking gtk. | 18:21 |
| dwd | Jaffa: The most interesting thing about the 770 when I got it was the drag-it-about scrolling in Opera, actually. It's frustrating that's not easily replicable in other apps. | 18:21 |
| suihkulokki | two wizards ending up completly differently is just embarassing | 18:21 |
| dottedmag | roope: have a look at Palms (PalmOS3 or PalmOS4). They have just usual set of widgets, but properly placed. | 18:21 |
| zuh | roope: You don't have to break Gtk+ to write widgets... | 18:21 |
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| roope | I mostly mean changing existing widgets to something more suitable for a device like this. | 18:22 |
| Jaffa | roope: As a user, it's always frustrating when techies blame the underlying technology for (perceived) shortcomings of the device: my response is "you chose that technology...". But then, as a programmer/designer/architect, I do exactly the same (and kick myself when I say it ;-)) | 18:22 |
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| zuh | roope: For example the treeview is a sad example of taking a decent widget and forcing it to do things it doesn't want to (instead of writing one that would be designed for it) | 18:23 |
| roope | Yes, well, how it ended that way is a ... complicated process. | 18:23 |
| roope | Don't really know if there is someone specifically to blame. | 18:24 |
| zuh | Yeah, sure :) | 18:24 |
| dottedmag | roope: why the file selection dialog does not occupy full screen? Why it has so big icons (so you have to scroll it nearly every time you open it)? Those things are not limited by the underlying technology. | 18:24 |
| zuh | I'm not trying to | 18:24 |
| dwd | Actually, the treeview annoys me because it's so slow when used as a virtual list with a few thousand entries. | 18:24 |
| roope | Skin design rules. | 18:24 |
| inz | ps | 18:24 |
| inz | oops | 18:24 |
| suihkulokki | my pet issue =) | 18:24 |
| dottedmag | roope: please, just let interaction designers do they work. Or find another ones if they already work hard :) | 18:25 |
| roope | Well, we do work hard. ;) | 18:25 |
| suihkulokki | I think I complained over a year ago that the UI has way too many popups | 18:25 |
| dwd | inz: 10706 pts/1 00:00:00 ps | 18:25 |
| zuh | I'm just pointing out that it's not a big deal to write a widget, specially when compared to modifying a complex one like treeview (with spaghetti inside) | 18:25 |
| inz | dwd, =) | 18:26 |
| dottedmag | and, damnit, why do the notifications overlap the status bar? | 18:26 |
| roope | Notifications are temporal, the information in those ... and in the status bar isn't so critical that temporal overlapping would matter. | 18:26 |
| roope | Otherwise they would cover more of the app/content area. | 18:27 |
| dottedmag | roope: oh, yeah. I always have to wait a second to click to the 'connection'. Did you even seen the Raskin's "Interface"? | 18:27 |
| dottedmag | roope: The Rule is to "User Must Not Wait Unless Absolutely Necessary". | 18:27 |
| roope | Wait for what, in this specific instance? | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | My biggest gripe with the 770's UI (not sure if the increased speed of the N800 will alleviate it) is the length of time popping up the on screen keyboard takes as the whole content area is redrawn into a small area. | 18:27 |
| dottedmag | roope: wait for the notification to disappear | 18:28 |
| dottedmag | roope: when something needs to be clicked | 18:28 |
| roope | We should make it to manually disappear? | 18:28 |
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| dottedmag | roope: it should be in another place, or even integrated in status bar if possible (there is bunch of free space at the left) | 18:28 |
| roope | It's not preventing the user from clicking something else... | 18:28 |
| dottedmag | overlapping sucks on the small screens | 18:28 |
| roope | Notifications can be quite long, with 2 lines of text. | 18:29 |
| roope | It'll overlap with something anyway. | 18:29 |
| dottedmag | You've got the brilliant-quality screen. Just decrease the font of notification. | 18:29 |
| roope | I'm sure Jef has a rule of text should be readable. :) | 18:29 |
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| roope | Decreaesing the font size is really the wrong way to go. It just gives the chance to add more and more stuff into a small screen. | 18:30 |
| Jaffa | Did someone say the time limit on next day delivery from direct.nokia.com was 16:30? | 18:31 |
| nelson | suihkulokki: yes, UI has too many popups. E.g. "Save this connection" when in fact you have no idea if the connection even works. | 18:31 |
| dottedmag | ok, why notification is not clickable-through? it might be self-transparent and allow clicking what's below. | 18:31 |
| Jaffa | roope: agreed, after all (and I'll say it again), the iPhone shows how good an interface can be on a small screen. Unfortunately reducing the font size on Maemo *does* make sense when it's copying desktop metaphors. | 18:31 |
| suihkulokki | nelson: and you have no chances of adding proxy or any manual settings at that stage either | 18:32 |
| roope | The performance with transparenc is quite problematic currently. It also makes things harder to read. | 18:32 |
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| maddler | Jaffa: that's the usual last pick-up time for next-day delivery... | 18:32 |
| roope | We tried for instance transparency with the thumb keyboard but it sucked so bad you ... well, i hope you can believe it. | 18:32 |
| maddler | could be different for nokia btw | 18:32 |
| Jaffa | maddler: yup. It's gone 16:30 here, and - of course - in Belgium it's gone past 17:30 already. | 18:33 |
| nelson | Robot101: you're serious about the 770 UI having been designed by professionals? | 18:33 |
| Jaffa | The same professionals, presumably, who design Nokia's phone UIs (who many people consider to be definitive, personally I'm used to SE phones now ;-)) | 18:34 |
| nelson | Did they actually use it after they designed it? Or is it a case of Stockholm syndrome? | 18:34 |
| Robot101 | nelson: uhm. yes. you might want to be careful about what you say, in case you come across as being offensive. | 18:34 |
| Jaffa | Actually, having said that, I've got a Nokia 9850T DVB-T STB, and the UI on that is quite sucky (although that might be OnDigital's fault) | 18:35 |
| maddler | Jaffa: I assumed they are shipping from .fi | 18:35 |
| roope | No problem. :) I'm one of them, if that wasn't apparent already. | 18:35 |
| roope | Yes, we use them. | 18:35 |
| nelson | Robot101: I don't mean to be offensive, but ... I do have some serious, detailed questions about the 770's usability. | 18:35 |
| dwd | Robot101: Oh, I remember what I was going to ask you now. Does the XMPP stuff on the 770 do MUC? And if so, how? | 18:35 |
| Jaffa | Interestingly, the Nokia 9850T STB uses transparency quite effectively on its abysmally slow processor ;-) | 18:35 |
| dottedmag | yeah. starting from replicating filesystem in handheld device! | 18:35 |
| nelson | Little things like "Don't ask confirmation questions; make actions undoable." | 18:35 |
| tigert | hey come on. | 18:35 |
| Jaffa | maddler "This order will be transacted by Supplies Distributors SA, Rue Louis Blériot 5, 4460 Grâce-Hollogne, Belgium." | 18:36 |
| Robot101 | nelson: well, you can speak to them yourself... but it's better to speak first than start insulting. | 18:36 |
| roope | nelson, you're little thing is not really a little thing at all. | 18:36 |
| tigert | i am ircing from the subway now. thhe concept is good and the ui isnt that bad | 18:36 |
| roope | "Don't ask confirmation questions" doesn't really mean anything. | 18:36 |
| maddler | Jaffa: oh... let's see then... :D | 18:36 |
| roope | We need to ask them sometimes. Some users will not want them for certain occasions. | 18:36 |
| nelson | roope: why do you say that? | 18:36 |
| tigert | everyone has their opinion on ui | 18:36 |
| roope | but it depends on what the user is doing. | 18:37 |
| nelson | tigert: some opinions are testable. | 18:37 |
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| roope | Well, that particular opinion is quite crappy. :) Every UI asks confirmations sometimes. | 18:37 |
| Jaffa | roope: connections could be transparently saved if used a couple of times, for example. I strongly agree that "Do you wish to save this connection?" is very annoying, since I dunno if a free one will work ;-) | 18:37 |
| dottedmag | tigert: you can't use shovel if it is designed to be used by three hands. | 18:37 |
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| roope | In a theoretically perfect world yes all actions would be undoable so you wouldn't need confirmation, but not on a limited performance device like this. | 18:37 |
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| dottedmag | tigert: some interfaces are designed to be used by, hmm. Computers? Aliens? | 18:37 |
| nelson | roope: I don't compare the 770's UI against other Nokia products, or against other UIs. | 18:37 |
| tigert | but when it comes to actually doing the whole shebang its a lot harder than just removing a dialog here and there | 18:37 |
| nelson | roope: I compare it against how it should be done. | 18:38 |
| Jaffa | tigert: no-one's saying UI design is easy, just that there's good value in getting it as good as possible. | 18:38 |
| nelson | tigert: agreed! A no-confirmation philosophy has to be built-in from the start. | 18:38 |
| roope | nelson: There are two different things. If we would live in the theoretically perfect world, there would be no product. | 18:38 |
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| roope | If we would ensist on the perfect on each case. | 18:38 |
| nelson | roope: Oh, I understand that nothing's perfect. | 18:39 |
| dottedmag | roope: ok. We've got the idea: you just didn't have enough time to make a good design. No problem then. | 18:39 |
| nelson | roope: but I don't understand why people defend imperfection once it's been discovered. | 18:39 |
| Jaffa | ...and if existing free software couldn't be fairly readily used, it'd've never have got off the drawing board. | 18:39 |
| dottedmag | roope: but don't admit it's good enough, please. | 18:39 |
| roope | Of course not. :) | 18:39 |
| roope | There's plenty of things to ipmrove. | 18:39 |
| roope | I agree for instance with the connection confirmation. | 18:39 |
| wumpus | Jaffa: also it would have craploads of bugs, probably | 18:40 |
| Jaffa | Of course, one problem is once you've started a product line down one path it's really hard to go back and really rethink it. | 18:40 |
| nelson | Jaffa++ | 18:40 |
| wumpus | in my opinion *the good thing* with the N800 is that it uses readily available software and only redesigns what is absolutely used.. | 18:40 |
| wumpus | used=needed | 18:40 |
| roope | Then again, resources are limited, every change is costly (much more than what would you think), so the question is between providing new stuff and fixing old stuff. | 18:40 |
| dwd | Jaffa: Not least because you run a huge risk of alienating existing users, of course. | 18:40 |
| Jaffa | wumpus: unfortunately either Nokia have introduced a lot of bugs, or the upstream has them (as things weren't designed upstream for the limited resources of the 770, causing watchdog resets etc.) | 18:41 |
| wumpus | for example that it uses plain gtk instead of some weird custom toolkit | 18:41 |
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| wumpus | makes it possible to make it easy to port things | 18:41 |
| suihkulokki | the other side of UI design is that nobody notices things that have been done properly | 18:41 |
| wumpus | huh, never had that with n800 yet | 18:41 |
| nelson | suihkulokki++ | 18:41 |
| wumpus | it responds fast and never reboots or so | 18:41 |
| Jaffa | suihkulokki: exactly. | 18:41 |
| nelson | but they always notice when they're done wrong. It's a no-thanks job. | 18:42 |
| roope | nelson: I'm not trying to defend imperfection. :) I see it in many places. | 18:42 |
| wumpus | like all programming really nelson | 18:42 |
| Jaffa | wumpus: ah, I'll look forward to seeing an N800 in the flesh then | 18:42 |
| wumpus | it's always about the bugs and security holes no matter how elegant the rest of your program | 18:42 |
| roope | Then again, there are quite limited absolute truths about UI design. We have a certain UI style. We could certainly have a different UI style, but it depends on the definition of "better". | 18:43 |
| wumpus | yeah | 18:43 |
| Jaffa | Two good UI snafus on the N800 (from what I can gather): turning Bluetooth on to connect a keyboard; putting the device to sleep. | 18:43 |
| roope | I'm sure that the iphone interface will frustrate a largeish percentage of users. | 18:43 |
| wumpus | it should be easy to do things you do a lot | 18:43 |
| wumpus | I think that's the best rule of ui design.. | 18:43 |
| nelson | Plus Nokia is in a hard place. They have a product built on open source, and works with open source, but large parts of it aren't open source itself. | 18:43 |
| zuh | Oh, and one thing about iPhone UI is that it is "almost certainly nearly flawless" ;) | 18:43 |
| nelson | Thus it attracts people who want to grab the code and fix it themselves. | 18:43 |
| Jaffa | zuh: :) | 18:43 |
| wumpus | sure, if you put millions in it | 18:43 |
| roope | Yeah, like itunes interface (...). | 18:43 |
| wumpus | then again the platform is closed | 18:43 |
| Veggen | Disconnect: I think I see the same reboots as you do. | 18:44 |
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| roope | iTunes is like "do it like we think or cry and do it like we think". | 18:44 |
| wumpus | so it isn't even an option for what i'm doing | 18:44 |
| nelson | iPhone-- | 18:44 |
| kaatis | roope, there's no absolute truths in ui design, but wouldn't you agree that more usability testing would've found out a lot of issues? like for example the inconsistencies between applications | 18:45 |
| Jaffa | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4209 has an interesting theme *inspired* by the care that Apple takes, rather than just ripping off images. Obviously there are some flaws (and I'm not sure I like the dark background), but it appears much clearer. | 18:45 |
| roope | I was severely impressed with the iphone interface, but a large part is really eyecandy. the one really good thing they have is the scrolling and panning, with inertia. | 18:45 |
| nelson | Plus double-touch. | 18:45 |
| Jaffa | roope: eye candy - if done well - can make up for a lot of *perceived* niggles with a device. | 18:45 |
| roope | kaatis: You're assuming that everything gets fixed once it is found. | 18:45 |
| tigert | ok now i have a chance to type again | 18:45 |
| tigert | on the train | 18:45 |
| dottedmag | I think they don't have doubleclicks and context menus which are ugly with stylus or fingers. | 18:46 |
| roope | Well, it does not. | 18:46 |
| zuh | roope: so you have tried one?-) Or is this just "oh, the presentation looked nice on youtube"-guestimate?-) | 18:46 |
| roope | But it's much better to know the problems of the device than to be unaware of them. | 18:46 |
| tigert | jaffa, we totally agree here | 18:46 |
| nelson | tigert: http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/ <--- type standing up, with 770 in your pocket. | 18:46 |
| tigert | the thing is, we need new ideas for the ui. that is a fact | 18:46 |
| roope | zuh: "Obviously i've tried one". :) Well, i've tried the browser that has the similar scroll pan. | 18:46 |
| roope | it works well in that, plus it works well in the videos, so yes. | 18:47 |
| Jaffa | Inertial scrolling in Opera could be cool. | 18:47 |
| dottedmag | tigert: bunch of good UI ideas suitable for small devices may be stolen from Palms and Newtons. . | 18:47 |
| * tigert looks at nelsons link | 18:47 | |
| roope | The limited (null) visibility of the community to the UI design team is naturally a problem. You can easily assume all kinds of things. | 18:47 |
| Jaffa | nelson: any news on manufacturing partnerss yet? | 18:47 |
| roope | I hope we can improve this in the future. | 18:48 |
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| dottedmag | roope: that would be great | 18:48 |
| Tak | IMO inertial scrolling would be better than the "wherever you click on the scrollbar is where you go" method | 18:48 |
| nelson | Jaffa: India seems to have fallen through. I have a contact whose uncle may know somebody. :-) That's how business gets done in India. "I know a guy who knows a guy who ..." | 18:48 |
| roope | A lot of problems are known, and a lot of them are being fixed. Some are known, and not being fixed, either for good reasons, or then because there are no resources to fix them. | 18:48 |
| Jaffa | nelson: heh, good luck. | 18:48 |
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| roope | Then again, since we cannot really communicate about these, it can be frustrating. | 18:49 |
| dottedmag | roope: and, again, noone can help you, as the sources are closed. | 18:49 |
| nelson | Jaffa: good news, though: Broadcom came through with technical information .... Only took them 50 days. | 18:49 |
| roope | Yes, and that's a shame. | 18:49 |
| konfoo | nelson: it is a slower pace there :) i was doing business there before the dot bomb boom | 18:49 |
| Jaffa | roope: that goes back to nelson's point about employing priests: since Nokia are concerned about product lifecycles and h/w sales, some parts will always be closed, or not talkable about etc. | 18:49 |
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| zuh | Scrollbars should in general offer a relative mode, a list with 100's of items is crappy to scroll with absolute positions even on desktop | 18:50 |
| tigert | nelson, it would be nice to hack something like that with a bluetooth keyboard interface and some buttons | 18:50 |
| tigert | interesting stuff | 18:50 |
| nelson | Jaffa: well, it's a business risk. Maybe Nokia would be better-off with only hardware and a core team? It's obviously a big risk to take, though. | 18:50 |
| konfoo | well if i had my way i would do away with the menu bar on the left side of the screen altogether | 18:50 |
| roope | zuh: but take scrollbars as an example. | 18:51 |
| Jaffa | nelson: an enormous risk. Would certainly (in the short term) end up with the device in "hackers and geeks only" mode | 18:51 |
| nelson | tigert: Ja, lots of fun to be had there. I intend to publish what I'm doing with the Chordite. | 18:51 |
| roope | IF we could create new scrollbar widgets, every implementation would need to change. if we could change current widgets, all current (and 3rd party) application woudl change. | 18:51 |
| nelson | Jaffa: that's where there's room for a paid staff. | 18:51 |
| Tak | zuh: agreed | 18:51 |
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| kaatis | roope, of course. imo everything should be fixed before writing anything new | 18:52 |
| roope | kaatis: Well, that doesn't really work in real life. | 18:52 |
| roope | Because what one considers fixed another considers broken. | 18:52 |
| kaatis | i've noticed.. | 18:52 |
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| roope | And nothing new would ever come. | 18:53 |
| dottedmag | kaatis: well, that's the problem also. in Linux distribution you may fix everything before the new release. When independent vendors release bunch of binary shit, you're not allowed to do it anymore. | 18:53 |
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| nelson | dottedmag: only mostly true. Even open source gets shipped with WONT_FIX bugs. | 18:53 |
| dottedmag | nelson: yes, surely | 18:53 |
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| dottedmag | nelson: but it's at least aknowledged as bugs | 18:54 |
| |tbb| | kismet wont running more than 5 min on my n800 ;( | 18:54 |
| nelson | And I'll bet this discussion has been repeated a gazillion times over beers in Finland. | 18:54 |
| roope | "It's best to ship with the bugs that you know than with bugs that you don't know", someone wise once said. | 18:54 |
| dottedmag | nelson: and that's the problem of closed development. You can't point to the discussion in mailing list archives at 199* :) | 18:55 |
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| Tak | not to mention that you have different teams working on different things | 18:55 |
| tigert | pretty much in any project that has someone to blame for the ui | 18:55 |
| |tbb| | anynone else got this problem? | 18:55 |
| keesj | It is really funny, I really love the nokia phone ui, they are "location" based "left top=1" etc and when you use a function long enough you end up knowing the keysequences to the function you want. I guess it is a real point that hidlon copies the desktop padarigm | 18:55 |
| nelson | dottedmag: Indeed. | 18:55 |
| keesj | Jaffa,perhaps having a transparent keyboard will make things faster because not resize is required | 18:56 |
| dottedmag | keesj: then the attempt failed. To open 'notes' application I need to make different steps if I'm on desktop or in some application. | 18:56 |
| tigert | its also that there was very little opensource embedded ui before. we as the community have lots of stuff to learn from this | 18:56 |
| nelson | Devising a completely new UI sounds like a job for Nokia Research. | 18:56 |
| nelson | tigert: hh.org was mostly ignored. | 18:57 |
| tigert | and we are trying to fix stuff, but its like open-heart surgery on a moving train without anesthesia... | 18:57 |
| Jaffa | keesj: indeed (it wouldn't really need to be transparent either, just over the top), but there are some nasty issues there with what you do if the field you're entering text into is in the lower half of the screen. | 18:57 |
| nelson | we have had 7 years of experience with embedded ui's. | 18:57 |
| nelson | which, I must hasten to add, doesn't mean that we got anything right. but it does mean that we made a bunch of mistakes which shouldn't be repeated. | 18:58 |
| keesj | perhaps the text area can be scrolled to the right position then, | 18:58 |
| Jaffa | keesj: indeed, but what if the field is at the bottom of the scrollable area and there's no more room (all solvable, it just gets hacky) | 18:58 |
| tigert | afaik we were mostly copying palm and wince, and focusing on the technology than ui so much | 18:58 |
| tigert | it was important stuff though | 18:59 |
| wumpus | if you make the keyboard transparent, then what if you want to type in the area that is occluded by the keyboard | 18:59 |
| wumpus | that'd be ugly | 18:59 |
| tigert | i hate the sound effects on this thing ;) | 18:59 |
| keesj | I like a sexy ui and like the mezzo interface a lot, form discussions here I understand that that was not possible performance wise. | 18:59 |
| roope | transparent keyboard looks like a mess, i tried it. | 19:00 |
| nelson | tigert: some of them are seriously annoying. Others are quite appropriate. | 19:00 |
| wumpus | keesj: I prefer a fast simple ui above a slow and eyecandy one every time | 19:00 |
| wumpus | especially if it drains battery too with animations and stuff | 19:00 |
| dwd | wumpus: But eye candy sells. | 19:00 |
| keesj | that is why I was so exited about that openvg think , apparently not that open! | 19:01 |
| nelson | roope: I'll bet that a proximity sensor would allow a transparent keyboard work well. When the stylus is close to the screen, the keyboard gets more opaque. | 19:01 |
| wumpus | yeah, I love nice graphics | 19:01 |
| wumpus | don't misunderstand me | 19:01 |
| nelson | roope: not in the cards given current hardware, though. | 19:01 |
| tigert | mezzo being the "four corners" -thing? | 19:01 |
| keesj | tigert, yes | 19:02 |
| wumpus | you can do nice graphics even with a relatively simple and efficient theming engine | 19:02 |
| wumpus | as long as your artists are good | 19:02 |
| tigert | but guys, do prototypes, put them garage etc | 19:02 |
| keesj | wumpus, people here tried evas | 19:02 |
| wumpus | there's no need to try to solve everything programmatically (aiming at heavy vector and image manipulation) | 19:02 |
| tigert | i love to see new ideas. its not li we love the bugs | 19:03 |
| roope | nelson: seriously trippy, but could work :) | 19:03 |
| tigert | like even | 19:03 |
| roope | you would get sick lookin at it tohugh. | 19:03 |
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| Jaffa | I quite fancy a device where the UI is a plain expanse of paper, and I can do anything I want, with minimal effort. | 19:03 |
| arnnnn | where can I get screen protector for n800 ? | 19:03 |
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| arnnnn | I can only find some from ebay and it shipped from hongkong, I don't know if that's good or not | 19:04 |
| roope | proximity sensors could allow context sensitive commands, onmouseovers etc. | 19:04 |
| roope | then again, their ui interactions are quite heavily patented. | 19:04 |
| wumpus | it would definitly have a coolness factor, but would probably complicate ui design even more | 19:05 |
| keesj | roope that is not required , you can also replace the mouse cliks by dragging gestures | 19:05 |
| roope | yes, but they're not average user friendly. | 19:05 |
| nelson | roope: yes, and they're probably all too obvious to have been granted a patent. :( | 19:05 |
| roope | hard to know, hard to learn, hard to do with the fingers. | 19:05 |
| dwd | arnnnn: Most folk here seem to think the N800 probably doesn't need a protector. | 19:06 |
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| roope | did you know for instance all the gestures on the vkb. | 19:06 |
| arnnnn | dwd, really? how about scratches..? | 19:06 |
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| dwd | arnnnn: FWIW, I let my two-year-old do Tux Paint on my 770, and it's fine. | 19:06 |
| keesj | roope, that is no true , my 2.5 year old kid can drag en drop the cosy bookmarks for example http://cosy-home.garage.maemo.org/ but he does not understand the menu thing | 19:06 |
| arnnnn | dwd, the screen is tough ? | 19:07 |
| roope | it is true. | 19:07 |
| roope | drag and drop is a special operation. | 19:07 |
| tigert | but what i trying to say, whil testing whether the touchscreen likes -12C, is | 19:07 |
| dwd | arnnnn: Apparently the N800's screen is tougher. Keep it away from keys and coins in your pocket, but it's probably okay otherwise. | 19:07 |
| wumpus | yeah I hate it has no screen protector, I'm worrying about the screen all the time when I carry it | 19:08 |
| arnnnn | dwd, I see, I don't know how tough it is because I haven't even peeled the transparent sticker from the screen | 19:08 |
| inz | dwd, fsck, I let my 2-year-old-goddaughter paint w/ sketch last night, but I reflashed and forgot to save it before =/ | 19:08 |
| wumpus | then again it won't scratch if you just put the thing around it got with it | 19:08 |
| dwd | inz: You are DOOOMED! | 19:08 |
| keesj | the real thing the matters to me is that I want an unfinished product , I like to hack around | 19:08 |
| tigert | that its a lot easier to give good suggestions, than to design a whole product | 19:09 |
| inz | dwd, I've gotta go there again and make her paint more... More... MORE!!! | 19:09 |
| dwd | inz: I never bother saving her work. My son, who's 5, manages to find his way around the menus to save his stuff, though. | 19:09 |
| Tak | agreed @ tigert | 19:09 |
| roope | tigert: even if sketch isn't open, how hard it would be to whip up a new Sketch2 from scratch? | 19:09 |
| roope | the ui is very simple right. | 19:09 |
| inz | dwd, she got a bit upset when I put the device to my pocket and headed off... | 19:10 |
| zuh | There is a soft "wallet" for N800, but that has it's own problems (like the N800 sliding out and dropping to the table when I picked it up this morning) | 19:10 |
| keesj | /join #P@rentHaxor | 19:10 |
| roope | just a toolbar and some basic controls. | 19:10 |
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| tigert | roope, still it has gone through debugging etc -silly to start from scratch | 19:13 |
| roope | yes, that's true, but. | 19:14 |
| dwd | inz: I usually have two kids whining at me to "do colouring". | 19:15 |
| roope | isn't it just the gtk-somearea widget basically. | 19:15 |
| osfameron | yeah the soft wallet is a bit pish | 19:16 |
| elpaso | dwd: hey, the conseguences of porting tuxpaint is that my 770 has completely lost screen sensibility (my two children love this too much) | 19:16 |
| dwd | elpaso: Lost screen sensitivity, you mean? | 19:17 |
| elpaso | yes sry | 19:17 |
| dwd | Ouch. | 19:18 |
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| dwd | Kids! You're banned! | 19:18 |
| roope | tuxpaint is really nice for its purpose. :) | 19:18 |
| keesj | elpaso, funny I have no such problems other than on open main menu icon | 19:18 |
| elpaso | same with me, the main icons is dead, but other central areas as well | 19:19 |
| Tak | eek @ loss of sensitivity - do they really pound on it? | 19:19 |
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| Tak | or is that a lifetime issue? | 19:19 |
| elpaso | it happened just a few month after buy, the little one is three and probably exagerated the pressure | 19:19 |
| keesj | I understand that a gcompriz port might make more people happy then I first envisioned | 19:19 |
| keesj | elpaso, interesting | 19:20 |
| tzz | elpaso: I don't let my 3 year old play on the 770/N800 except when I'm supervising. It's been OK so far but she's been very interested in it. | 19:20 |
| tzz | she loves the sketch program. | 19:20 |
| elpaso | yes gcompris is a must, but I'm planning to repackage and patch tuxpaint when I will have a new 800... soon I hope ;) | 19:20 |
| elpaso | @tzz: they love tuxpaint, it's a pity they cannot use it | 19:21 |
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| tzz | I was considering giving my 770 to her instead of selling it, but it was too much money... | 19:21 |
| elpaso | I think I will send to repair whe the 800 arrives, it's still on warranty | 19:22 |
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| jaeku | my battery wont charge to full... wtf | 19:23 |
| jaeku | only half | 19:23 |
| gpd | does the sketch program have a lag with everyone or just me? the paint seems to appear about 3mm behind the stylus (N800) | 19:23 |
| tzz | elpaso: I hope so. Getting the kids started this early is probably a good thing for computer literacy. You know, so they can serve their AI overloards in 15 years :) | 19:23 |
| Jaffa | :) | 19:23 |
| tzz | gpd: seems OK to me. | 19:23 |
| jaeku | anyone know if i can configure the whole system to use a SOCKS proxy instead of just HTTP(S)? | 19:24 |
| gpd | tzz: if you draw quickly does it keep up completely? | 19:24 |
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| sbaturzio | Aloha! | 19:27 |
| * maddler goes home | 19:27 | |
| maddler | Jaffa: see you later... ;) | 19:27 |
| maddler | hehehe | 19:27 |
| maddler | a looong day... :D | 19:27 |
| Jaffa | maddler: cya | 19:27 |
| Jaffa | Not ended yet :-/ | 19:27 |
| maddler | Jaffa: indeed! :D | 19:27 |
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| tzz | gpd: seems real time to me. | 19:28 |
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| jaeku | dang, i would like to tunnel home via ssh and use the built in socks5 proxy to surf the net... | 19:31 |
| zuh | I guess it was a bit naive to think "on Monday 22nd" would mean "within the first 3/4 of the day", but still... *sigh* | 19:32 |
| zuh | ;) | 19:32 |
| Tak | the emails will go out at 2359 in the last timezone | 19:33 |
| Jaffa | zuh: Well, I was hoping it'd mean "orderable on 22nd" | 19:33 |
| zuh | I just hope they are sent before the expiration date passes :P | 19:34 |
| zuh | and, naturally, that one of the codes would end up in my inbox | 19:34 |
| elpaso | I think they meant Monday 01 Jan 2018 | 19:35 |
| zuh | *checks spam folder once more* | 19:35 |
| Tak | lol - I'll start checking mine once I hear other people are getting theirs | 19:35 |
| Fenix-Dark | can someone tell me how i can mount a smb share on my 770? | 19:36 |
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| * koen gets his hopes up | 19:37 | |
| Molagi | how do i close file transfer window in xchat? | 19:37 |
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| wumpus | jaebird: maybe you can port socksify | 19:39 |
| wumpus | jaeku: I mean you | 19:40 |
| wumpus | it's just a script that does a LD_PRELOAD anyway | 19:40 |
| wumpus | to socksify the bsd socket functions | 19:40 |
| wumpus | you could even hack it into /etc/ld.preload.conf or something | 19:41 |
| keesj | will xnest work on the 770? where can I get the source? | 19:41 |
| jaeku | i'd only like to use SOCKS when using my phone's connection | 19:41 |
| wumpus | but you would have to make care your initial ssh connection does not try to use the socks proxy :) | 19:41 |
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| wumpus | opera doesn't understand socks proxies as-is | 19:42 |
| wumpus | so you will have to go with that way | 19:42 |
| wumpus | that, or use vpn | 19:42 |
| jaeku | i guess i'll just use a regular http proxy... too much effort needed to get it working | 19:42 |
| * jaeku sighs | 19:42 | |
| Molagi | stupid xchat | 19:43 |
| Molagi | i have to quit the whole app if i want to close the file send window | 19:44 |
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| |tbb| | you can hold the cancel key for more than 1 second then the dialog closes also | 19:45 |
| Molagi | hmm | 19:46 |
| Molagi | lets try | 19:46 |
| jaeku | if i left my 770 charging all night but it is only half way full now, does that mean the battery is going bad? i didn't use my 770 for 4 months or so... | 19:46 |
| Molagi | woot it works | 19:47 |
| Molagi | thx |tbb| | 19:47 |
| Tak | jaeku: how long does it last? or have you not tried draining it yet? | 19:47 |
| user__ | np :) | 19:47 |
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| arnnnn | does evince work with n800 yet..? | 19:51 |
| arnnnn | etrunko, is it still a long way to go for evince to work with n800 ? | 19:51 |
| etrunko | arnnnn: not really | 19:52 |
| etrunko | just build some packages | 19:52 |
| jaeku | i thought porting to os2007 was supposed to "require minimal effort" | 19:52 |
| Tak | the stock pdf reader is good enough that I don't have any desire for evicne | 19:52 |
| Tak | not to mention, I only have 64M swap :-P | 19:52 |
| arnnnn | Tak, I need evince to see boomarks, my pdf is 1000 pages | 19:52 |
| jaeku | Tak: yeah, i havent drained it all the way yet | 19:52 |
| etrunko | jaeku: it is.. the problem is just time | 19:52 |
| Veggen | jaeku: It does, really. but many package maintainers haven't got a N800 yet. | 19:52 |
| etrunko | Veggen: this is also true | 19:53 |
| etrunko | :) | 19:53 |
| arnnnn | etrunko, do you have a n800 yet ? | 19:53 |
| |tbb| | whats better on evince as the built in pdf viewer? | 19:53 |
| arnnnn | |tbb|, I need it to see pdf's bookmark | 19:54 |
| Veggen | has any of them support for clickable contents, searching, etc? | 19:54 |
| etrunko | |tbb|: if you stop reading some doc and close the application, next time you open it, it will start the doc from where you stopped | 19:54 |
| Veggen | that's what I miss from the internal. | 19:54 |
| etrunko | Veggen: evince does search | 19:55 |
| Tak | is the pdf viewer open source? | 19:55 |
| etrunko | Veggen: and index also | 19:55 |
| etrunko | Tak: nop | 19:55 |
| Tak | meh | 19:55 |
| Tak | in that case, there is something from evince that I'd like ;-) | 19:55 |
| user__ | k-s, very silly of the makers from the built in | 19:55 |
| arnnnn | etrunko, how fast is evince gonna be compared to osso xpdf ? | 19:55 |
| Tak | although something that's not such a memory hog would be preferable | 19:55 |
| etrunko | arnnnn: don't kno | 19:55 |
| arnnnn | is memory still an issue with n800..? | 19:56 |
| user__ | also that the built in picture viewer doesnt support slideshow | 19:56 |
| etrunko | should be less than in the 770 | 19:56 |
| Veggen | Tak: isn't the included xpdf based? In that case, it should be GPL. | 19:56 |
| Tak | Veggen: I have no idea | 19:57 |
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| Tak | haha - someone just brought to my attention that "openmoko" would make a spanish speaker think "openbooger" | 19:58 |
| Tak | now that's marketing | 19:58 |
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| zuh | I applied for one in their developer device "handout", maybe I should withdraw my application... | 20:01 |
| zuh | naah. | 20:01 |
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| minra | my first on-line gaming experience - 1981 - http://www.xmn.com/plato.htm | 20:02 |
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| |tbb| | i hate those reboots from self :( | 20:09 |
| |tbb| | is there a new mplayer package available, now? | 20:09 |
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| * Jaffa gives up waiting by his computer and goes to spend time with the boy. | 20:15 | |
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| c0ffee | re | 20:15 |
| c0ffee | i'm the most unathletic geek in town :/ | 20:16 |
| c0ffee | everything hurts | 20:16 |
| |tbb| | re , any1 was answeing b4? | 20:16 |
| c0ffee | uuuh, l33tsp34k | 20:17 |
| * tigert watches his N800 reboot by itself | 20:17 | |
| tigert | theres something weird going on, need to set it to debug mode or something | 20:17 |
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| |tbb| | c0ffee, no just typing on the n800 :) | 20:18 |
| c0ffee | n800sp34k then :) | 20:18 |
| zuh | tigert: I suggest installing syslog, that should give an idea what it does when it boots | 20:18 |
| |tbb| | tigert, just a few secnds, got the same | 20:18 |
| c0ffee | and what's on the tv tonight? | 20:18 |
| c0ffee | maillog! | 20:19 |
| zuh | tigert: and I see that this is a common thing (our devices from the office have done that, my friend has one and it too boots unattended...) | 20:20 |
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| jaeku | does the 770 support LEAP authentication? | 20:23 |
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| |tbb| | anyone installed kismet on his n800 | 20:25 |
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| |tbb| | got problems after a few minutes sniffing | 20:25 |
| |tbb| | it stops :/ | 20:25 |
| suihkulokki | you have been repeating that all day | 20:26 |
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| |tbb| | if u dont ask no1 will answer | 20:27 |
| jaeku | maybe the bot should buffer everything everyone says, and if they repeat themselves too many times, you get the boot! | 20:27 |
| |tbb| | doit | 20:27 |
| [mbm] | kismet runs fine on my 800 | 20:28 |
| |tbb| | btw always get a reboot, how will i know anyone has answered | 20:29 |
| jaeku | maybe... USE A DESKTOP? | 20:29 |
| jaeku | or computer that doesnt suck (if you are indeed on a desktop) | 20:30 |
| [mbm] | if you can't stay connected maybe you should be using a mailing list instead | 20:30 |
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| roope | http://www.gizmoproject.com/learnmore-nokia800.html | 20:30 |
| roope | looks... busy. | 20:30 |
| tigert | zuh: yeah | 20:31 |
| tigert | zuh: it seems to do that when it sits around on wavelan | 20:31 |
| tigert | though I cannot say if that is making a difference | 20:32 |
| tigert | mdk had the same | 20:32 |
| tigert | roope: have you looked at apple stuff lately? | 20:33 |
| tigert | roope: its funny how like iTunes has now a LOT of stuff in its menus | 20:33 |
| tigert | its not very simple and clean anymore | 20:33 |
| tigert | yet the basic stuff works nicely | 20:33 |
| Veggen | tigert: Mine also spontaneously reboots. What's in the files mentioned at http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ReportingRebootIssues ? | 20:34 |
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| [mbm] | apple has gotten away from their concept of a central menu system and now has stuff hidden in contextual menus | 20:34 |
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| user__ | xterm doesnt let u copy from the downer left context menu if u selected some text on xterm screen | 20:34 |
| tigert | roope: but it has the cute hippo icon! | 20:34 |
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| tigert | roope: if the thing works, people don't care much as long as it is easy enough | 20:35 |
| tko | MDK, btw, have you tried building hildon on top of stock gtk? | 20:35 |
| tigert | tko: hey | 20:35 |
| tko | morning | 20:35 |
| tko | :) | 20:35 |
| tigert | tko: we had a little experiment with inz | 20:35 |
| tigert | update osso-xterm | 20:35 |
| tigert | it now has the nifty toolbar | 20:36 |
| tigert | we also found two bugs :) | 20:36 |
| tigert | 1) toolbar separators are vertical. also in vertical toolbars apparently ;) | 20:36 |
| |tbb| | nice2hear | 20:36 |
| tigert | and 2) the toolbar button graphics scale only horizontally | 20:36 |
| koen | tko: hildon doesn't build on top of stock gtk, due to missing colour and tap-n-hold stuff | 20:36 |
| tko | hmm, I'm lazy, I use the extra image which comes with a terminal :) | 20:36 |
| tigert | we need to fix that in the theme-tools | 20:36 |
| tigert | tko: dude, maemo-hackers term is WAY WAY better | 20:37 |
| tko | tigert, I'm surprised vertical toolbar works at all :) | 20:37 |
| tigert | try it once and there is no going back | 20:37 |
| tigert | tko: it does | 20:37 |
| tigert | but the separators are apparently a bit useless :) | 20:37 |
| tigert | or, very effective, | 20:37 |
| tigert | depends how you look at it :) | 20:37 |
| tko | I blame the gtkrc maintainer :) | 20:37 |
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| |tbb| | a copy / paste button would be good also a ctrl key button :) | 20:38 |
| tko | I'm pretty sure it's because gtkrc is assuming all toolbars are horizontal | 20:38 |
| tko | koen, logical color should be going away, but there's no replacement for tap'n'hold | 20:39 |
| koen | what about making t-n-h optional to get hildon-on-your-workstation working? | 20:39 |
| tko | koen, if that's all, we're doing pretty well :) | 20:40 |
| tko | koen, I'm trying to poke MDK about that :) | 20:40 |
| tko | seems we're so close | 20:40 |
| koen | I'm trying to add maemo3 to OE and don't want to add osso-gtk+ when I don't have to :) | 20:40 |
| tko | oh, this is for the future.. | 20:41 |
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| |tbb| | tigert, where 2 dl the updated o-xtermy? | 20:44 |
| tigert | |tbb|: dude, speak normal language :) | 20:45 |
| tigert | but maemo-hackers.org is the place | 20:45 |
| tigert | tko: yea, and should be easy to fix too | 20:46 |
| tigert | just make sapwood scale both ways | 20:46 |
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| |tbb| | how can i change, the words which display(on rhe spacebar) while typing | 20:47 |
| * mgedmin is eagerly waiting for maemo 2.2 | 20:47 | |
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| * mgedmin just installed ubuntu on a new hard disk and would like to use scratchbox 1.0 | 20:47 | |
| guerby | did some developper get coupons by now? | 20:47 |
| jaeku | WTF, i just flashed to the latest os2006 and it can't browse my phone's FS anymore | 20:48 |
| tko | tigert, oh, we should probably also talk a little about how to document the theming possibilities (think scrollbar) -- I'm hoping to do some documentation this week (though it'll probably be delayed until next one anyway) | 20:48 |
| nelson | guerby: none reported yet. | 20:49 |
| guerby | nelson, I'm curious :) | 20:49 |
| maddler | everyon's looking at his mailbox! :D | 20:50 |
| maddler | jaeku: paired correctly? | 20:50 |
| jaeku | maddler: yes, my BT ppp connection works... | 20:50 |
| jaeku | phone is grayed out in the file manager | 20:51 |
| jaeku | says it doesnt support it | 20:51 |
| maddler | is PPP connection active at same time? | 20:51 |
| jaeku | which is BS cus it was working before | 20:51 |
| jaeku | maddler: uh, maybe... does it have to be off? | 20:52 |
| * jaeku checking | 20:52 | |
| maddler | jaeku: it could be a problem... | 20:52 |
| jaeku | ! connection not supported by phone | 20:52 |
| maddler | some BT devices allow to have more than one connection at a time... | 20:52 |
| jaeku | is what it says | 20:52 |
| jaeku | and i'm not connected | 20:53 |
| maddler | mumble... | 20:53 |
| zuh | Subject: Software At Low Pr1ce | 20:53 |
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| zuh | damn I already thought... ;) | 20:53 |
| * jaeku checking phone settings | 20:53 | |
| maddler | which phone? | 20:53 |
| jaeku | in phone details, it says "file transfer: yes" | 20:53 |
| jaeku | nokia 6620 | 20:53 |
| maddler | zuh: strange... | 20:53 |
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| maddler | btscan? ;) | 20:54 |
| tigert | tko: yeah | 20:55 |
| jaeku | dont have terminal installed | 20:55 |
| maddler | nice... gizmo for the N800 | 20:55 |
| * jaeku deleting and adding phone again | 20:55 | |
| |tbb| | tigert, dont found something but a 770 package for xterm ont the page | 20:55 |
| tigert | |tbb|: just use the repository, but put "bora" in place of "mistral" | 20:56 |
| jaeku | maddler: weird, now it works | 20:57 |
| maddler | jaeku: hehehe... | 20:57 |
| jaeku | i wish natilus would browse my phone like this | 20:57 |
| maddler | you know... phones love me! :D | 20:57 |
| jaeku | NOKIA CONTRIBUTE TO NAUTILUS THE CODE FOR BROWSING PHONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | 20:59 |
| * jaeku will shuddup now | 20:59 | |
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| Veggen | jaeku: hmm...it's standard bluetooth protocol, right? | 21:00 |
| suihkulokki | jaeku: N already did contribute the code for browsing phones as open source | 21:00 |
| zuh | http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/10/05/0 | 21:02 |
| zuh | And apparently it can be used on desktop too | 21:02 |
| jaeku | cool | 21:02 |
| suihkulokki | only few years after kde ;) | 21:02 |
| jaeku | cus right now it is a mess to browes my phones FS... without p3nfs | 21:02 |
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| Veggen | hmm. Is the 0.13mh16bora1 version of osso-xterm good or bad magic? ;) | 21:03 |
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| c0ffee | re | 21:06 |
| |tbb| | http://maemo-hackers.org/apt bora main ? | 21:07 |
| jaeku | zuh: cool, just wish it gets in gnome-vfs asap | 21:07 |
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| NickDe | quick question | 21:09 |
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| c0ffee | time's over! | 21:10 |
| NickDe | how come I keep hearing about people getting a white screen of death or a reboot repeating cycle with n800's/770's | 21:10 |
| NickDe | I've never..ever experienced these problems yet I see so many people complaining about it.. what are they doing that causes this to happen? | 21:10 |
| c0ffee | often that is related to 3rd party software installed | 21:10 |
| tko | http://www.newslettercartoons.com/index.html :-) | 21:10 |
| nelson | In my experience, repeating reboot (once a minute) is due to filesystem corruption. | 21:10 |
| NickDe | I figured.. well poor third party software | 21:10 |
| [mbm] | NickDe: updating busybox will cause a spiffy reboot loop on the n800, reflashing doesn't help; doesn't go away until you switch on r&d | 21:11 |
| NickDe | how the hell do people manage to do that? | 21:11 |
| nelson | Dunno, but maemo-mapper does it reliably if you track for a couple of hours with a GPS receiver. | 21:11 |
| tigert | hmm | 21:12 |
| tigert | the only third party software I have is osso-xterm :) | 21:12 |
| * tigert eyes inz suspiciously ;( | 21:13 | |
| tigert | ;) even | 21:13 |
| |tbb| | tigert maemo-hackers.org/apt bora main | 21:13 |
| NickDe | well.. I've hacked the 770 up for a year and a half now and the n800 for the last 2 weeks and I have never experienced any of these problems.. was just wondering how people managed to do these things... | 21:13 |
| NickDe | the conclusion... User Error | 21:13 |
| tigert | |tbb|: something like that | 21:14 |
| nelson | well, having a watchdog is a great way to get reboots. | 21:14 |
| tigert | it is | 21:14 |
| tigert | luckily it can be chained in its doghouse with flasher | 21:14 |
| nelson | Oh! Maybe it's NOT filesystem corruption, but instead something which causes the filesystem code to block for a while .... longer than the watchdog allows. | 21:15 |
| tigert | if needed | 21:15 |
| dwd | NickDe: The WSOD is a hardware fault in (some?) 770's involving a race condition and a reboot. | 21:16 |
| NickDe | dwd: really? a hardware problem? well that stinks.. | 21:16 |
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| fliptop | is anyone here? | 21:17 |
| dwd | fliptop: No. | 21:17 |
| fliptop | dwd: hi thanks for the laugh. i have a nokia n800 running xterm, is there a magic button or something to hit escape when using vi editor? | 21:18 |
| |tbb| | tigert, very usefull the sidbar | 21:18 |
| tigert | yea | 21:18 |
| dwd | fliptop: The curly arrow key. | 21:18 |
| mgedmin | fliptop: the hardware esc button | 21:18 |
| tigert | inz: can you make the "C" read "Ctrl" actually | 21:18 |
| tigert | ? | 21:18 |
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| dwd | fliptop: Um. Assuming it looks the same on an N800. | 21:19 |
| fliptop | dwd: thanks, i now hand my head in shame. | 21:19 |
| mgedmin | it's a surprisingly common question | 21:19 |
| mgedmin | it's rather unobvious that the browser's "go back" key is actually Esc | 21:19 |
| * mgedmin knows because /me read the maemo programming tutorial | 21:19 | |
| c0ffee | where we come back to this newton discussion :) | 21:19 |
| inz | tigert, yeah, it was erratically left to C, as it doesn't come from gconf. | 21:20 |
| tigert | mgedmin: it sounds like someone used vi a lot :) | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | ooh, ooh, can I pine for the good old PalmOS days here? | 21:20 |
| dwd | mgedmin: I think that's the only place it's documented, so it's not surprising it's a common question. | 21:20 |
| tigert | inz: right | 21:20 |
| tigert | inz: I thought so, as it was the original label from the first version | 21:20 |
| tigert | but regarding UI stuff | 21:21 |
| tigert | I think it is fairly easy to replace hildon desktop with something else | 21:21 |
| *** mgedmin changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | http://maemo.org | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/ Search: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/search | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/N800DeveloperDeviceProgram | New image: http://maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800 (Win users: http://europe.nokia.com/A4305010) | http://tinyurl.com/yf2xhh" | 21:21 | |
| tigert | so go hacking, ask me for artwork and ui help if needed | 21:21 |
| tigert | and try out new things | 21:21 |
| Tak | actually I thought it was fairly obvious that curly arrow was esc | 21:21 |
| tigert | if its good it surely will be seen | 21:21 |
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| c0ffee | hum | 21:22 |
| c0ffee | mgedmin, what's the diff to the last topic? | 21:22 |
| mgedmin | stripped trailing / from irc log search URL | 21:22 |
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| mgedmin | 'cause it breaks the relative CSS link | 21:23 |
| c0ffee | is that your website? | 21:23 |
| mgedmin | yes | 21:23 |
| c0ffee | if yes you could just put a search link on the maemo-irclog/ page | 21:23 |
| c0ffee | then we could safe the 2nd link :) | 21:23 |
| mgedmin | search is an experimental feature, I didn't want to do that before it was debuged | 21:23 |
| mgedmin | but yes, I should do that now | 21:23 |
| Tak | we're all about conserving the topic space ;-) | 21:23 |
| c0ffee | great | 21:23 |
| tko | mgedmin, can't you put both the search entry on top of the archives page? saves a link | 21:24 |
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| c0ffee | tko, he's doing that right now :) | 21:24 |
| tko | c0ffee, you said 'link' :) | 21:24 |
| mgedmin | tko: entry is what I planned | 21:25 |
| c0ffee | ah | 21:25 |
| c0ffee | my bad :) | 21:25 |
| jtokash | pyrfeed just announced on offline google reader client | 21:26 |
| jtokash | http://code.google.com/p/pyrfeed/wiki/Screenshots | 21:26 |
| c0ffee | did somebody else notice that the developer program announcement says monday 22nd | 21:26 |
| c0ffee | neither a month, nor a year | 21:26 |
| suihkulokki | shit, someone noticed | 21:26 |
| jtokash | it's python | 21:26 |
| maddler | c0ffee: ? | 21:26 |
| c0ffee | reminds me of the 'third quartal' | 21:27 |
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| Tak | c0ffee: well, it does pin it down to a countably infinite set of month/year combinations | 21:27 |
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| c0ffee | a physican would point out that reality is discrete and final :) | 21:27 |
| c0ffee | at least a quantum physican | 21:28 |
| Tak | lots of physicists believe that spacetime is infinite | 21:28 |
| * mgedmin reads irc logs | 21:28 | |
| mgedmin | whoa, new osso-xterm with a ctrl button | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | is there a mistral version? | 21:28 |
| Tak | yes! I demand a mistral version! | 21:29 |
| c0ffee | if you read further down, new xterm has user defined shortcuts for arbitrary key combinations | 21:29 |
| Veggen | 0.13.mh16bora1? | 21:29 |
| * mgedmin always wanted a one-click ctrl+c | 21:29 | |
| inz | mgedmin, Tak, yes, there is also a mistral version | 21:29 |
| inz | 0.13.mh16 | 21:29 |
| Tak | :-P cool! | 21:30 |
| |tbb| | where u can configure ur ownn shortcuts | 21:30 |
| Veggen | damn, downloading and installing it didn't break my 128kbps internet radio a bit. | 21:30 |
| ab | "More information will be provided next Monday 22nd." Speaking of which, it would be 2007/10/22 | 21:30 |
| inz | |tbb|, no UI yet, you need to manually use gconftool... | 21:30 |
| maddler | c0ffee: just realized :D | 21:31 |
| MDK | tko: haven't tried | 21:31 |
| |tbb| | never worked with gconftool :/ | 21:32 |
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| maddler | has anyone tested that new bash-m package? | 21:33 |
| maddler | I mean... any good reason to replace busybox? | 21:33 |
| Tak | I'm not in the local shell enough to replace busybox | 21:34 |
| Veggen | depends how much you work in the shell :) | 21:34 |
| c0ffee | i think it would be good to replace busybox with a complete busybox | 21:34 |
| c0ffee | that has iproute commands etc | 21:34 |
| Tak | although, for a tcsh with vi mode... | 21:34 |
| c0ffee | vi mode is a readline feature :) | 21:34 |
| inz | tigert, I'll fix the "C" to say "Ctrl" when I get home, my svn refuses to work in the weird wired network I'm in now =) | 21:34 |
| |tbb| | never touch a running system | 21:34 |
| Tak | eh, I don't like bash's vi mode | 21:34 |
| c0ffee | it's a good way to secure your box | 21:34 |
| guerby | c0ffee, would be better to have a busybox2 packages that adds what's missing without touching the existing one if you don't want to get stuck :) | 21:34 |
| c0ffee | you can even leave a rootshell open | 21:34 |
| maddler | ok... I'll give it a try then... | 21:35 |
| maddler | time to eat something here... | 21:35 |
| maddler | and I'll check my mail later! :D | 21:35 |
| keesj | inz, and the backspace did not work in osso-xterm + screen + irssi , is that a know problem? | 21:35 |
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| kpel | hi | 21:36 |
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| keesj | the backspace on the stylus keyboard that is | 21:36 |
| mgedmin | same in osso-xterm + screen + vim | 21:36 |
| c0ffee | maybe it sends a backarrow key instead of backspace? | 21:36 |
| mgedmin | backspace appears to send a ^@ | 21:36 |
| mgedmin | I blame screen | 21:36 |
| mgedmin | I always blame screen | 21:37 |
| |tbb| | same prob here | 21:37 |
| keesj | I chose to blame inz. he is here | 21:38 |
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| c0ffee | vi has fix and fixdel commands | 21:39 |
| c0ffee | gnah | 21:40 |
| c0ffee | every five minutes a nokia developer device program mail to m-d | 21:40 |
| Molagi | anyone familiar with urho konttoris media convertor for windows? | 21:41 |
| Molagi | im trying to figure out how to add subtitles | 21:41 |
| Veggen | btw, anyone with bad handwriting actually managed to learn to like handwriting recognition? does anyone use it? | 21:41 |
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| Tak | not I | 21:42 |
| c0ffee | tried it with os2005, and immedially ordered a bt keyboard | 21:43 |
| Veggen | considering trying, but I was just interested to know if it's a futile effort ;) | 21:43 |
| tko | "The UI doesn't seem to match any existing model (Windows, Mac, Gnome), but it's simple enough to learn quickly. My biggest nit is that some things require a double-tap, while other things only need a single-tap. If there's a method to the madness, it's not immediately obvious to me." | 21:43 |
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| nelson | tko: yeah, that drives beginners crazy. | 21:44 |
| nelson | They end up double-clicking on everything. | 21:44 |
| c0ffee | they should all read the xterm man page | 21:44 |
| c0ffee | with the quadruppel left click + ctrl and stuff | 21:44 |
| c0ffee | meta tripple right middle click opens the foo menu | 21:45 |
| Veggen | nevertheless, everyone seem to have forgotten all the difficulties with certain popular desktop systems ;) | 21:45 |
| nelson | Well, the specific ones I was thinking of are farmers. They only use computers because they have no choice. They'd rather be out digging in the dirt. | 21:45 |
| Veggen | (tho I must admit that that vendor isn't *that* bad in usability, in general) | 21:45 |
| nelson | I wonder if you couldn't use a noun / verb syntax everywhere? | 21:46 |
| nelson | Click to select an object, and gesture to get the verb. | 21:47 |
| tigert | i never liked the handwriting | 21:47 |
| tigert | i think its fairly bad | 21:47 |
| tigert | but i like the fullscreen finger keyboard a LOT | 21:47 |
| Tak | it completely turned my friend off buying an n800 | 21:47 |
| Tak | and he was drooling over it prior to that | 21:47 |
| c0ffee | bad bad taktaktaktaktak | 21:48 |
| tigert | well. i love thhe thumb kbd, works nicely and fast too | 21:48 |
| Tak | lol | 21:48 |
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| Tak | I love the thumb kb too | 21:48 |
| nelson | handwriting or finger keyboard? | 21:48 |
| Veggen | tigert: the enlarged menu if you use it with the fingers, is that new on the N800? | 21:48 |
| Tak | the handwriting | 21:48 |
| nelson | that turned your friend off? | 21:48 |
| nelson | Ahhhh. Yeah, those things always have a learning curve, because they can't really recognize handwriting. | 21:48 |
| tigert | its very good idea and works wonderfully for chat/irc | 21:48 |
| Tak | yeah, the enlarged menu doesn't exist on the 770 | 21:48 |
| c0ffee | i'm considering buying the nokia gps module | 21:49 |
| nelson | It's more like recognizing handwriting-like gestures. | 21:49 |
| zuh | "enlarge your menu, just touch it with your finger" | 21:49 |
| Tak | I read the thing and was like, "Really?! cool!" and tried it | 21:49 |
| tigert | veggen, its also 770 OS2006 | 21:49 |
| Tak | tigert: doesn't work on mine then :-/ | 21:49 |
| X-Fade | tigert: It is not? Doesn't work for me at least? | 21:49 |
| |tbb| | how can i delete specific suggest word while typing on the sw keyboard | 21:49 |
| Veggen | tigert: really? never tried. Never got around to using the finger keyboard much. hmm, perhaps try it. | 21:49 |
| tigert | the enlarged menu also sucks if you need to scroll it | 21:49 |
| zuh | tigert: are you sure you are not thinking of sardine/whatnot? | 21:50 |
| tigert | but we are trying to fix that | 21:50 |
| X-Fade | I think the enlaged menu need a 1 cm thick scollbar next to it.. | 21:50 |
| tko | the enlargement is only os2007 feature | 21:50 |
| X-Fade | *needs | 21:50 |
| Tak | |tbb|: is "weirdass" the first completion for "we..." on yours too? ;-) | 21:50 |
| k-s | [14:55] <user__> k-s, very silly of the makers from the built in | 21:50 |
| k-s | ? | 21:50 |
| k-s | anyway, the guy left | 21:50 |
| tigert | i am talking about the THUMB KEYBOARD though. it is in os2006 also. press an entry with a thumb | 21:51 |
| Tak | ah | 21:51 |
| tigert | or the xterm window | 21:51 |
| zuh | tigert: everybody else is talking about the menu ;) | 21:51 |
| tigert | yea. i am swimming against the flow!! ;) | 21:52 |
| Molagi | FONT NOT FOUND! | 21:53 |
| Molagi | ARIAL FONT NEEDS TO BE PLACED IN: c:/windows/fonts/arial.ttf | 21:53 |
| * Tak Ps in the ool | 21:53 | |
| Molagi | hmm | 21:53 |
| Molagi | i got my fonts in c:winnt/fonts/arial.tff | 21:53 |
| tigert | the menu sucks because gtk menus suck | 21:53 |
| Molagi | how do i change the directory | 21:53 |
| tigert | what on earth are you talking about? | 21:53 |
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| zuh | That thumb menu is nice except for the fact that it takes ages to scroll down | 21:54 |
| Molagi | trying to convert videos but media convertor cant find the font because its looking from the wrong file | 21:54 |
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| zuh | tigert: thumb your others menu :) | 21:54 |
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| tigert | well put it there :) | 21:54 |
| *** ddudud is now known as Handful__ | 21:55 | |
| Molagi | no such directory c:/windows/fonts/arial.ttf | 21:55 |
| Molagi | could it work if i make one | 21:55 |
| tigert | zuh, yea. | 21:55 |
| tigert | maybe? try | 21:55 |
| Molagi | yeah | 21:55 |
| inz | keesj, is that local screen & irssi, if so, try apt-getting ncurses-base | 21:58 |
| tigert | man. i am loving the toolbar in xterm | 21:58 |
| c0ffee | http://switch.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/corefonts/arial32.exe | 21:58 |
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| tigert | well. if he has winnt, he has arial.ttf. | 21:59 |
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| c0ffee | the last windows i had was 3.11 for workgroups | 22:00 |
| |tbb| | rofl | 22:00 |
| minra | nice, c0ffee | 22:01 |
| * sio has to work with windows because of his stupid school :( | 22:02 | |
| |tbb| | win95 took about 11 Disks IIRC | 22:02 |
| sio | good thing there's putty... | 22:02 |
| keesj | inz, yes it is local , I installed ncurses-base yesterday , and removed it again , I wil try again | 22:03 |
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| tzz | GTK question: in trying to port Emacs, I was unable to find a non-GTK loop. There is one, but it's not used if USE_GTK is on. So I'm pretty sure the Emacs window that comes up is a GTK window and should have the pop-up keyboard. Does anyone know how to investigate this further, or should I go to the maemo-developers mailing list now? | 22:03 |
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| tko | tzz, you should mail the list | 22:04 |
| tzz | thanks tko | 22:05 |
| * etrunko wonders how will emacs work without a way to press more than 1 key at a time | 22:05 | |
| c0ffee | try to avoid the works 'developer' 'device' and 'program' in your mail subject if possible | 22:05 |
| tko | tzz, but I think the case is that the input method doesn't recognize the widget as something that accepts input and thus doesn't know to display the keyboard.. adding an explicit hildon_gtk_im_context_show() call might work | 22:05 |
| jaeku | anyone know if i can use LEAP authenication for wifi? | 22:05 |
| c0ffee | words even | 22:05 |
| tzz | etrunko: BT keyboard works fine | 22:05 |
| [mbm] | c0ffee: and emacs | 22:05 |
| etrunko | tzz: ah, ok | 22:06 |
| Tak | Subject: Developer trying to Program N800 Device | 22:06 |
| tzz | etrunko: plus I'm adding site-init menus to send M-x, etc. | 22:06 |
| etrunko | tzz: i thought you were using the virtual keyboard | 22:06 |
| * mgedmin imagines Nokia selling a N800 Emacs kit: includes a bluetooth keyboard and a memory card with an emacs .deb | 22:06 | |
| etrunko | :) | 22:06 |
| etrunko | mgedmin: lol | 22:06 |
| etrunko | > 1GB | 22:06 |
| jaeku | uh, just emacs? whats the point in that | 22:07 |
| [mbm] | mgedmin: and do I need to fire up vi to read the install instructions? | 22:07 |
| tzz | tko: yes, but I would have to get pretty deep into the Emacs internals to do that. Trust me, it's not fun, Emacs X code is older than X11R4 I believe | 22:07 |
| suihkulokki | emacs = Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping | 22:07 |
| suihkulokki | hmm, that doesn't really sound like a insult anymore | 22:07 |
| Tak | emacs = Escape Meta Alt Control Shift | 22:07 |
| Veggen | hmm. could xterm/some shell be hacked to make the new shortcuts change on context? | 22:07 |
| Tak | suihkulokki: Eighty? | 22:07 |
| Veggen | (i.e. if you run emacs) | 22:07 |
| jaeku | if anything, nokia should release a developers kit with a memory card that includes all dev packages needed to write programs directly on the 770/800 and a bluetooth keyboard | 22:07 |
| tigert | for Amiga there was MicroEmacs | 22:07 |
| tko | tzz, I'm surprised you can't do that with elisp :) | 22:08 |
| *** mgedmin changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | http://maemo.org | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/ | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/N800DeveloperDeviceProgram | New image: http://maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800 (Win users: http://europe.nokia.com/A4305010) | http://tinyurl.com/yf2xhh" | 22:08 | |
| tzz | my Emacs can be from 10 to 180 MB depending on what I load, I do all my mail in Gnus for example. | 22:08 |
| mgedmin | topic diff: removed irclog search link -- there's now a search box on every page | 22:08 |
| tigert | Eats Megabytes And Constantly Swaps | 22:08 |
| tzz | tko: maybe I can, I'm looking at it. | 22:08 |
| c0ffee | yay for mgedmin | 22:09 |
| tko | jaeku, would anyone be patient enough to wait for gcc to start...? | 22:09 |
| tigert | besides, on gnome desktop, | 22:09 |
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| tigert | Gedit takes longer to start than emacs | 22:09 |
| jaeku | oh, and the dev kit should use distrubuted compiling services so you dont have to compile directly on the machine | 22:09 |
| tzz | btw, Emacs runs really well on the N800. I was able to do ERC, Gnus mail, and a few other things. | 22:09 |
| tzz | msg me for the deb if you want to try it. | 22:10 |
| tigert | so we have come a full circle ;) | 22:10 |
| jaeku | tko: they should have a distruted compling farm for devlopers to use | 22:10 |
| tko | xan, how's your distcc coming up? ;) | 22:10 |
| jaeku | tko: exactly... distcc... | 22:10 |
| tko | we should just silently ship distcc daemon in every device :) | 22:11 |
| tigert | tzz, yea, like it should. it ran on my Pentium90 with 16MB ram too. | 22:11 |
| xan | it has a silly bug that gives you missing symbols in some compilations | 22:11 |
| jaeku | why? nokia should have a farm for developers to use | 22:11 |
| jaeku | the client doesnt need to be arm | 22:11 |
| jaeku | well, server... | 22:12 |
| tigert | well. there is this ting called scratchbox. | 22:12 |
| tigert | thing even | 22:12 |
| * mgedmin thinks "fatbox" would have been a more appropriate name... 3 gigs and counting | 22:12 | |
| tigert | for devellopment kit | 22:12 |
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| jaeku | i'm just saying, it is a possibility for people to write directly on their 770s if they had distcc servers running | 22:12 |
| mgedmin | sorry, 2 gigs | 22:12 |
| tigert | dont feed it so many roots :) | 22:13 |
| kaatis | i might be wrong, but i think scratchbox comes with distcc | 22:13 |
| jaeku | or some sort of bulid farm | 22:13 |
| mgedmin | just the two (armel and pc) | 22:13 |
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| guerby | tzz, where did you get your emacs .deb for N800? | 22:13 |
| mgedmin | I'm thinking I don't really need the pc one | 22:13 |
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| Tak | ditto | 22:13 |
| tzz | gurby: I built it (and will post it to the wiki page when it's ready) | 22:13 |
| Tak | except for xephyr | 22:13 |
| tzz | guerby: you can try it if you want | 22:14 |
| guerby | tzz, ok thanks! | 22:14 |
| tko | jaeku, considering that hosting that stuff would cost money, what would be the proposition to make for those sitting on the money pile? | 22:14 |
| guerby | I just love installing random .deb :) | 22:14 |
| tzz | guerby: at 78 MB, I doubt you want emacs.deb unless you really like it. I'm working on pruning the fat. | 22:15 |
| Tak | lol - sounds like xmame | 22:15 |
| guerby | tzz, oh well I have 2 1GB cards | 22:16 |
| guerby | /dev/mtdblock4 251.5M 94.9M 156.6M 38% / | 22:16 |
| guerby | I haven't removed the MyDocs stuff yet :) | 22:17 |
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| Veggen | there was a way to mount a memory card as an overlay, wasn't there? With an internal and an external card, that becomes quite interesting imho. | 22:17 |
| guerby | -rw-r--r-- 1 user users 842661 Nov 22 17:40 User_guide_English_GB.pdf | 22:18 |
| guerby | -rw-r--r-- 1 user users 1906122 Nov 22 17:40 User_guide_English_US.pdf | 22:18 |
| guerby | wow, US manual two times bigger than GB one? LOL | 22:18 |
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| mokki | yanks need much more explaining ;) | 22:18 |
| roope | :) | 22:18 |
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| Pio | heh | 22:18 |
| Pio | or 10 extra pages of legalese | 22:19 |
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| roope | British version: "Take the stylus out". US version: "Take the stylus out. The stylus is this black pointy thingy..." | 22:19 |
| jaeku | tko: well, it might be simpler to have a lighter environment that applications developers to use that would strictly only maintain files related to their application, and would require less effort to maintain a package-able devlopment environment. just upload your applications related files and your program gets insertined in a queue and produces the package for you... | 22:19 |
| guerby | -rw-r--r-- 1 user users 1900064 Nov 22 17:40 Guide_d'utilisation_français_CAN.pdf | 22:19 |
| guerby | -rw-r--r-- 1 user users 869117 Nov 22 17:40 Manuel_d'utilisation_Français.pdf | 22:19 |
| guerby | may be it's the north america legalese blur :) | 22:19 |
| guerby | blurb | 22:19 |
| Pio | Stylus(TM) and Take(TM) are registered trademarks of Squatters USA, Inc. | 22:19 |
| jaeku | tko: basically, no need to maintain a large SDK, and allows them to focus on their build environment | 22:19 |
| tzz | the US version has naked pics on the last 10 pages | 22:19 |
| Pio | hah | 22:20 |
| c0ffee | impossible | 22:20 |
| jaeku | jaeku: keeps it simple for developers to keep up to date | 22:20 |
| Pio | and jack in the box coupons | 22:20 |
| tzz | naked device, that is ;) | 22:20 |
| c0ffee | they may have 10 pages of innards and death at the end | 22:20 |
| jaeku | tko: keeps it simple for developers to keep up to date | 22:20 |
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| c0ffee | but no way naked pics | 22:20 |
| Pio | yeah, that'd be obscene | 22:20 |
| Molagi | hmm how can i copy a font file | 22:20 |
| c0ffee | xcopy from to | 22:21 |
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| Molagi | whats an xcopy | 22:21 |
| Veggen | btw, evince seems to work. | 22:21 |
| Veggen | sort of. | 22:21 |
| jaeku | tko: i know from personal experience, it is a pain to upgrade my development environment each time there is a new maemo release | 22:21 |
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| AaronL2 | Hi, sorry to ask, but does anyone here know if any US developers have received an invitation yet for the developer device program? | 22:22 |
| * shapr boings cheerfully | 22:22 | |
| koen | has _anyone_ received one yet? | 22:22 |
| shapr | Not me | 22:22 |
| nelson | apparently not. | 22:22 |
| koen | screw americans | 22:22 |
| c0ffee | sure | 22:22 |
| AaronL2 | I searched through the logs earlier today | 22:22 |
| c0ffee | i have one | 22:22 |
| shapr | koen: We're cute. Screw us. | 22:22 |
| Tak | I would think that the GB version would be larger, due to all the extraneous vowels | 22:22 |
| c0ffee | problem is, it's for the 770 | 22:22 |
| nelson | koen: I did! Got two kids out of it! | 22:23 |
| shapr | nelson: haha! | 22:23 |
| AaronL2 | for this channel, I got the impression that some people might have received a code. | 22:23 |
| AaronL2 | but, it was hard to tell, they might have been joking. | 22:23 |
| shapr | qgil said if we hadn't heard by Mon 22nd, and we thought we really deserved one, we should talk to him... | 22:23 |
| jaeku | tko: make any sense? | 22:23 |
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| AaronL2 | yeah, I saw that | 22:23 |
| tzz | meanwhile the codes are going to postmaster@nokia.com :) | 22:24 |
| shapr | heh | 22:24 |
| AaronL2 | has anyone here period received a code (non-US as well)? | 22:24 |
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| shapr | I do solemnly swear to build the Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compiler for maemo as soon as I get an N800. | 22:24 |
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| AaronL2 | oh well, guess not, I expected to see a little more information about the program today on planet.maemo.org and maybe itt, guess not | 22:25 |
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| tko | jaeku, sure, but I don't see how that could be sold to the moneymen.. we'd still need to maintain the SDK. granted we could skip the installation script, but then again I'd expect many people preferring to have the SDK locally | 22:26 |
| zuh | The day is still young! | 22:26 |
| c0ffee | yes | 22:26 |
| c0ffee | for offline use and stuff | 22:26 |
| shapr | tzz: Are you blogging about your emacs.deb? I want more! | 22:26 |
| tzz | shapr: I don't blog. What do you want to know? | 22:27 |
| AaronL2 | shapr: I saw in the logs that someone suggested that you look at VNC viewer for how to send special keys. | 22:27 |
| shapr | You said it's 78mb now, yeah? Is it gnu emacs or xemacs? Does it have a speech recognition system yet? | 22:27 |
| AaronL2 | well, I think it was for you, for someone working on emacs | 22:27 |
| shapr | I live in xemacs on my desktop, for 8 years or so. | 22:28 |
| * jaeku is envisioning a client program that applications developers would run that would fire off their code to a build server and produces a installable package | 22:28 | |
| tzz | Aaron: yes, I remember that. When I get the keyboard to pop up, I can work on the special keys. | 22:28 |
| AaronL2 | ah, ok, just wondering if you had found it helpful (I work on VNC vieweR) | 22:28 |
| tzz | shapr: Emacs 22 pretest. No speech recognition. It's just what comes with 22. | 22:28 |
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| shapr | jaeku: I could go for it. I haven't built GHC on my 770 because it takes 8+ hours. | 22:29 |
| tzz | Aaron: if you know Hildon/GTK, I could really use some help with the pop-up keyboard. I asked about it earlier. | 22:29 |
| AaronL2 | yes, I know Hildon/GTK | 22:29 |
| AaronL2 | I didn't see, I wasn't on the channel (I'm rarely on the channel) | 22:30 |
| jaeku | shapr: yeah, the main thing that is holding me back is to have to install a mamoth build environment on my machine | 22:30 |
| tzz | shapr: speech recognition is pretty useless IMHO, I tried it when I busted my thumb and I lost my voice VERY quickly, plus it was very inaccurate. Not that I mind it on the N800, just my experience. | 22:30 |
| jaeku | shapr: but, it doesnt have to only run on the handheld itself... i would like this for my desktop too | 22:30 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: I have posted several responses to questions about using the GTK input methods to the maemo-developers list in the past | 22:31 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: what is the problem? | 22:31 |
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| tzz | Aaron: I'll e-mail you if you want. Basically I'm pretty sure Emacs is bringing up a GTK window, but the text widget is not bringing up the keyboard. | 22:32 |
| tzz | Aaron: is your aracnet address OK? | 22:33 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: is the entire GUI (sure) done in GTK? doing it that way will help, trying to wrap some X stuff can be difficult | 22:33 |
| shapr | jaeku: Maybe a qemu image? | 22:34 |
| jaeku | shapr: of a server? | 22:34 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: I'm not sure what you mean by "text widget". that could mean a lot of things. | 22:34 |
| minra | there is a vmware image of a full bora scratchbox environment | 22:35 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: if it is an actual GTK widget that accepts text input, then clicking in the edit field (assuming it is editable) should cause the virtual keyboard to be displayed. | 22:35 |
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| AaronL2 | tzz: however, if it is a custom widget, you have to do some custom coding to make it happen | 22:35 |
| tzz | Aaron: it's Emacs, GTK is optional, I'm sure a lot of it is insanely convoluted. I am not a X programmer so I'm guessing a lot of things. By text widget I mean the Emacs buffers, which are probably not real GTk widgets (sorry for the confusing terminology). | 22:35 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: Someone did post how to get the input method to display for non-GTK widgets | 22:36 |
| tzz | Aaron: it would be fine to call a function on gain/lose focus events. I need to check if Emacs supports that internally as a hook. | 22:36 |
| jaeku | hmm, maybe i could script a simple client that uploads a project folder to a virtual server and builds the package, then retrieves it... | 22:36 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: however, the way to cause the input method to be displayed is pretty GTK-specific | 22:36 |
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| minra | jaeku, are you low on hard drive space | 22:36 |
| tzz | Aaron: I saw some info in https://garage.maemo.org/snippet/browse.php?by=lang&lang=2 but it was not what I needed for Emacs specifically. | 22:37 |
| AaronL2 | tzz: I think the minimo guy figured out how to do it for a standard Xwindow | 22:37 |
| jaeku | minra: no, i just want to separate out the maemo environment from my project | 22:37 |
| shapr | jaeku: A xen image that runs the latest maemo dev environment would be spiffy. | 22:37 |
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| AaronL2 | tzz: guess it won't let me send a private message, which channel? | 22:39 |
| tzz | Aaron: let's try #maemoemacs | 22:39 |
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| konfoo- | jaeko: cruisecontrol? or hudson? | 22:40 |
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| konfoo- | i use those to automate *.* at work | 22:41 |
| konfoo- | check in to svn and the output is a install package on a website for QA/I&T to use | 22:41 |
| jaeku | konfoo-: interesting... | 22:42 |
| konfoo- | jaeku: we use to to build firmware images for our set top box platforms | 22:43 |
| jaeku | prolly just a simple script that fires off a bunch of commands using ssh will work | 22:43 |
| konfoo- | which are all embedded, using a changeroot | 22:44 |
| konfoo- | well.. thats kinda ghetto :) but sure | 22:44 |
| konfoo- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_Integration some more options | 22:45 |
| c0ffee | ah c'mon | 22:45 |
| konfoo- | cruisecontrol is the best out there | 22:45 |
| c0ffee | big design up front | 22:45 |
| c0ffee | we all know that is best | 22:45 |
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| konfoo- | coffee: well why twiddle with scripts and then handle build contentions and make a custom job when you can pick an existing continuous integration server/app, install it 1-2-3, and hack up its scripts a bit | 22:46 |
| c0ffee | just kidding :) | 22:47 |
| konfoo- | also :) | 22:47 |
| c0ffee | actually, there has to be some software like this for debian, right? | 22:47 |
| c0ffee | i mean, not every dweebian developer has all architectures handy | 22:47 |
| konfoo- | yeah.. we are running cruisecontrol on debian | 22:47 |
| c0ffee | i'm using a perl script myself | 22:48 |
| konfoo- | there are actually some simpler CI apps out there that are indeed a few scripts and a php page or perl script | 22:48 |
| konfoo- | nod | 22:48 |
| c0ffee | i called it 'eddie' after a nice ddj article | 22:48 |
| Tak | part of the prereqs for becoming a DD is that you have a s390 in your basement | 22:48 |
| c0ffee | z9 at least | 22:48 |
| konfoo- | Tak: does having a box of s390 floppies qualify me? | 22:48 |
| c0ffee | no | 22:49 |
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| konfoo- | i did cobol on a s/36 for 4 years | 22:49 |
| c0ffee | i used to work at ibm in linux on zseries development | 22:49 |
| konfoo- | it was... a terrible experience | 22:49 |
| c0ffee | we have a pretty nice compile server there | 22:49 |
| c0ffee | took about 2.5h to recompile the complete portage tree | 22:50 |
| konfoo- | haha nice | 22:50 |
| hap | konfoo-: thanks for your bitorrent image, works fine | 22:50 |
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| Tak | http://ian.blenke.com/xen/vmware | 22:51 |
| hap | konfoo-: is there anything i'm supposed to do to have applications within the emulator, i have nothing | 22:51 |
| konfoo- | hap: download some source, compile, start xephyr, execute, and it should pop up in the term window | 22:52 |
| konfoo- | i should have included a helloworld with it | 22:53 |
| konfoo- | and svn/cvs tools | 22:53 |
| hap | konfoo-: ah, there is none included | 22:53 |
| konfoo- | maybe for the next release | 22:53 |
| hap | ok, i guess i have to read a little more about this | 22:53 |
| konfoo- | yeah.. theres a bit in the readme i made, but its really easy | 22:53 |
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| hap | konfoo-: do you mean i just have to run any application, and the zephyr X server would display it ? | 22:54 |
| konfoo- | just make a dir in your ~ in the scratchbox, and copy/wget/etc whatever you need, make config and make it | 22:54 |
| hap | hmm ok | 22:54 |
| konfoo- | hap: run the scratchbox from the link on the menu | 22:54 |
| AaronL2 | hap: personally, I use VNC instead of xephyr | 22:54 |
| AaronL2 | but, perhaps you are talking about the VMWare thing | 22:54 |
| hap | AaronL2: i have no N800 | 22:54 |
| konfoo- | AaronL2: this is the vmware image, nod | 22:54 |
| hap | yeah i do | 22:54 |
| AaronL2 | which already comes with xephyr | 22:54 |
| AaronL2 | hap: I don't have an N800 either :-) | 22:55 |
| hap | konfoo-: but i ordered by n800 anyway, should arrive tomorrow or after tomorrow | 22:55 |
| konfoo- | hap: nice :) | 22:55 |
| hap | however i need to set this up anyway, to work on some application | 22:55 |
| AaronL2 | hap: you probably won't want to use the N800, however, for developer testing, scratchbox is a more ideal environment | 22:55 |
| hap | yeah i would agree | 22:55 |
| hap | don't want to crash, i guess i would have to reinstall the firmware or something | 22:56 |
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| hap | konfoo-: what can I read online to understand a little more about this scratchbox and all ? | 22:57 |
| hap | does the scratchbox only setup variables and such ? | 22:57 |
| hap | or does it chroot to some directory ? | 22:57 |
| c0ffee | it mounts stuff everywhere | 22:57 |
| AaronL2 | hap: read the tutorial | 22:57 |
| AaronL2 | hap: at maemo.org--that's how I got started | 22:57 |
| hap | AaronL2: that's what I'm talking about :) Where can i read it ? | 22:57 |
| hap | ok, must have missed it | 22:57 |
| Veggen | but seriously - having a read-only internal flash and doing all writes to the internal SD would be a good idea. That way, a backup of all the settings etc. would be as simple as a dump of the memory card. | 22:57 |
| AaronL2 | hap: www.maemo.org, click Developers, then documents | 22:57 |
| konfoo- | hap: there are links in the readme as well | 22:58 |
| AaronL2 | hap: you'll see the tutorial there | 22:58 |
| konfoo- | yeah there are oodles of tutorials :) | 22:58 |
| hap | ok thanks guyz, don't want other to explain me what's on the tutorial | 22:58 |
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| jaeku | tko: i guess the most compelling reason for those sitting on the pile of money would be that they would have a higher participation rate due to development being easier to approach for new users. just install your build client, and you are ready to code! | 23:06 |
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| jaeku | i personally am too lazy to install and configure maemo | 23:07 |
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| zuh | jaeku: you can already code with the device, just write your python code in notes and run it from the xterm ;) | 23:08 |
| zuh | Easy! | 23:09 |
| zuh | Painful too | 23:09 |
| * jaeku briefly had the taste of his lunch come back up his throat | 23:09 | |
| jaeku | i want native code | 23:09 |
| jaeku | on an embedded machine | 23:10 |
| AaronL2 | uit | 23:10 |
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| jaeku | how slow/fast is python and how much overhead is there? | 23:11 |
| jaeku | let me rephrase that, how slow/fast/overhead is a python hildon app in comparision with a native one | 23:12 |
| hap | much much much slowe | 23:13 |
| hap | r | 23:13 |
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| hap | maybe should psyko be ported | 23:13 |
| zuh | I wouldn't say so, not on N800 at least... | 23:13 |
| keesj | I tried jtra's python game , it starts fast and works well on the 770 | 23:13 |
| hap | zuh: i was joking, i don't know about it :) | 23:13 |
| zuh | But then again, "much" is a very subjective unit of measurement :) | 23:14 |
| jaeku | is the python runtimes bundled in maemo? | 23:14 |
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| jaeku | or do users need to install python and the whole 9 yards? | 23:14 |
| zuh | no, you need to get them from http://pymaemo.garage.maemo.org/ | 23:14 |
| hap | ah, that sux | 23:15 |
| zuh | It's a single package though | 23:15 |
| jaeku | sucks | 23:15 |
| kkpaul | good evening guys | 23:15 |
| hap | so basicly C is the way to go for "straight working" apps ? | 23:15 |
| jaeku | tko: did you even read anything i wrote to you? | 23:16 |
| zuh | I guess so | 23:16 |
| zuh | But would you really like the internal flash to be filled with pymaemo, rmaemo, maemo# and all by default?-) | 23:16 |
| hap | one of them would be enough :) | 23:17 |
| jaeku | no, but there should be some way to make them static apps | 23:17 |
| jaeku | staic as in, including the runtime environment for py/ru/# | 23:17 |
| c0ffee | it should contain dependencies | 23:18 |
| c0ffee | so the app manager can manage them | 23:18 |
| jaeku | i guess you are right | 23:18 |
| Veggen | apps that include all the dependencies is not the Linux way :) | 23:18 |
| jaeku | true | 23:18 |
| Veggen | and not good for low-diskspace situations, either :) | 23:19 |
| hap | however it's very convenient | 23:19 |
| jaeku | but if your application is the only py/ru/# application, i dont want to have the rest of the 95% of the libraries | 23:19 |
| [mbm] | setup wireless, install a development environment on your big expensive server, then setup distcc on the tablet? | 23:19 |
| [mbm] | (or just ssh into your server, compile your app, scp it back) | 23:19 |
| jaeku | [mbm]: it would be nice if there was a build service... you run your build client from your project folder kinda like you would do to check in your code | 23:20 |
| [mbm] | well, distcc nicely abstracts the gcc so you can put your compiler remote without too much hassle | 23:21 |
| jaeku | but you still have to have the all the includes and builder tools on the machine | 23:22 |
| jaeku | if there was a builder service, i wouldnt even have to worry about keeping up to date | 23:23 |
| [mbm] | there's not much that won't have some sort of overhead on the device | 23:23 |
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| [mbm] | maybe sh; pretty much everything includes a shell | 23:23 |
| * jaeku wonders if anything he just said went thru [mbm]'s head | 23:23 | |
| jaeku | if you have a build CLIENT that just does simple upload/downloading there is no overhead on the client | 23:24 |
| c0ffee | why don't you just ssh to the build server? | 23:25 |
| * jaeku lets out a long drawn out sigh... | 23:25 | |
| jaeku | cus i dont want to have to maintain a server | 23:26 |
| jaeku | and update it each time there is a new version of maemo | 23:26 |
| c0ffee | and where does the server come from for your build client? | 23:26 |
| jaeku | not to mention the mixing of my project inside the maemo environment | 23:26 |
| * [mbm] does tons of embeded work and is constantly amazed by the number of people that insist on native compiles | 23:26 | |
| jaeku | c0ffee: the maemo team? | 23:26 |
| c0ffee | why don't you ssh to this server? | 23:26 |
| c0ffee | garage should have support for that iirc | 23:27 |
| jaeku | c0ffee: if the maemo team provides building services, i dont need to download their run time environment | 23:27 |
| keesj | I have makefile base program that I want to debianize , what install prefix can i use? | 23:27 |
| * jaeku officially starts to ignore [mbm] | 23:27 | |
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| jaeku | c0ffee: i just want to deal with stuff from my project, i dont want to touch maemo itself | 23:28 |
| [mbm] | I feel so loved | 23:28 |
| jaeku | i just dont understand why you insist that i'm trying to compile something natively on my 770 | 23:29 |
| jaeku | i'm saying i want maemo to have a server/client environment that i fire my project source off to that compiles it for me | 23:30 |
| konfoo- | man you guys sure fret a lot | 23:30 |
| konfoo- | :) | 23:30 |
| [mbm] | jaeku: you read too much into what I say | 23:30 |
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| mokki | how does one set CFLAGS to something other than plain -O2 when building with "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -b". exporting CFLAGS before has no effect | 23:30 |
| * jaeku needs to get back to work | 23:31 | |
| [mbm] | compiling really should be just ssh into the build farm, cross compile, upload the resulting package to the device | 23:32 |
| [mbm] | no 'build client' required | 23:32 |
| hap | i would tend to agree with that | 23:34 |
| keesj | [mbm], that is not my idea of open-source. ;p | 23:34 |
| c0ffee | mokki, i don't think that is possible | 23:34 |
| keesj | but I really believe in the mud-builder project and guess that it should be able to do both | 23:34 |
| [mbm] | keesj: what does opensource have to do with the machine you compile on? | 23:34 |
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| keesj | compile locally or delegate that stoff to the build farm | 23:35 |
| zuh | "This Nokia N800 discount code is for you" \o/ | 23:35 |
| zuh | And the day isn't even over yet! | 23:36 |
| atla_ | want one too! | 23:36 |
| atla_ | :) | 23:36 |
| * jaeku wants one too | 23:36 | |
| keesj | [mbm], I think that everybody should have easy access to the build platform | 23:37 |
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| [mbm] | keesj: all open source means is that I share the source; which device I use to compile it on is irrelevent | 23:37 |
| jaeku | true | 23:37 |
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| hap | zuh: i want a discount code | 23:37 |
| zuh | keesj: What? Scratchbox is not easy?-) | 23:38 |
| hap | ah wait, i ordered already ... :( | 23:38 |
| Tak | :-( zuh | 23:38 |
| jaeku | but it would promote maemo usage if you didnt have to deal with it ;) | 23:38 |
| koen | "This Nokia N800 discount code is for you" | 23:38 |
| keesj | scratchbox is easy. | 23:38 |
| * koen yays | 23:38 | |
| [mbm] | cross compiler just means I can spit out binaries much faster on my desktop system than I can if I tried to compile on the tablet | 23:38 |
| * hap agrees | 23:38 | |
| keesj | if you don't have the full platform on your pc you don't have a "tained" open source model | 23:38 |
| * maddler just goy is CODE!!! | 23:39 | |
| hap | it's not about opensource, it's about going faster | 23:39 |
| [mbm] | ever said I didn't | 23:39 |
| maddler | YESSSS!!! | 23:39 |
| keesj | Happy happy joy joy | 23:39 |
| hap | anyone using usenet binaries here? | 23:39 |
| [mbm] | is cross compiler an alian word here? do I have to call it scratchbox? | 23:39 |
| keesj | I love you all. | 23:40 |
| JussiP | I got a code too. W00t. | 23:40 |
| mokki | c0ffee, thanks. I'll patch the debian/config then directly... I want to at least pass the -mcpu=arm1136jf-s -mfpu=vfp to the gcc. Most likely -Os would be beneficial too | 23:41 |
| * Tak wonders how long to wait before despairing | 23:41 | |
| maddler | YESS! YESS! YESS! | 23:41 |
| konttori | Where can I enter the discount code? | 23:41 |
| * [mbm] wonders if sstrip works on arm platforms | 23:41 | |
| bergie | konttori: here on IRC? ;-) | 23:42 |
| *** c0ffee changes topic to "Discount codes are coming! | Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | http://maemo.org | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/ | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/N800DeveloperDeviceProgram | New image: http://maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800 (Win users: http://europe.nokia.com/A4305010) | http://tinyurl.com/yf2xhh" | 23:42 | |
| konttori | Is it in payment section of the process? | 23:42 |
| hap | konttori: when you get it from nokia, at the end you can enter it | 23:42 |
| hap | yeah | 23:42 |
| konttori | No, in nokia shop | 23:42 |
| konttori | ;) | 23:42 |
| hap | wish i had one when i ordered | 23:42 |
| maddler | konttori: go to order page... there is a field... | 23:42 |
| hap | can i get a discount later if I publish work ? :] | 23:42 |
| konttori | hap: you mean, like at the end of the checkout process? | 23:42 |
| atla_ | i guess not | 23:42 |
| hap | konttori: yeah | 23:42 |
| maddler | hap: I was about to oder mine today... | 23:42 |
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| maddler | I was _SURE_ I wasn't getting the code... | 23:43 |
| maddler | :D | 23:43 |
| hap | maddler: ordered mine at 12PM today, but I never published anything. | 23:43 |
| maddler | tahnks god (that's me) I didn't! | 23:43 |
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| hap | maddler: well I am _sure_ i won't get one :) | 23:43 |
| maddler | eh... time to release new versions of my ports then! | 23:43 |
| c0ffee | somwhow i have the feeling i won't get one :( | 23:43 |
| maddler | hap: lol | 23:43 |
| hap | maddler: you just compiled ports to get a ticket ? | 23:43 |
| maddler | c0ffee: sad for you... :( | 23:43 |
| hap | that's all I had to do to get one ? Damned... | 23:43 |
| maddler | hehehehe... | 23:43 |
| Veggen | as a non-developer with an N800 already, I'm just glad it arrived so all the developers will finally have a device, and I will have software, finally ;-) | 23:44 |
| hap | maddler: did you port X ? | 23:44 |
| hap | maddler: or apache or the libc ? Man.. | 23:44 |
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| Tak | porting != recompiling | 23:45 |
| AaronL2 | What is the domain that the discount code is coming from? | 23:45 |
| AaronL2 | I mean, on the e-mail? | 23:45 |
| c0ffee | maemo.org probably | 23:45 |
| JussiP | Yes. | 23:45 |
| zuh | team@maemo.org sent mine | 23:45 |
| hap | can someone forward me such a mail, to check | 23:45 |
| Tak | lol | 23:46 |
| hap | ok i"ll subscribe to maemo.org mailing list then | 23:46 |
| hap | If I port a small package, shall I get one ? :p hehe | 23:46 |
| zuh | And now we wait and start gathering a local deb archive of stuff to install ;) | 23:46 |
| Jaffa | Yay! | 23:46 |
| c0ffee | Jan 22 22:40:42 nyx sm-mta[5308]: l0MLZi02005308: maemo.org [62.61.85.38] did not issue MAIL/EXPN/VRFY/ETRN during connection to MTA | 23:47 |
| c0ffee | TEH HORROR | 23:47 |
| konttori | hap: If you don't get N800, by porting, you'll surely get N900 in a years time ;) | 23:47 |
| * c0ffee runs for the sendmail book | 23:47 | |
| koen | Jaffa: are you a real developer? | 23:48 |
| Jaffa | koen: I am :) | 23:48 |
| [mbm] | there are fake developers? | 23:48 |
| koen | Jaffa: that makes two of us :) | 23:48 |
| Jaffa | :) | 23:48 |
| keesj | 3 | 23:48 |
| zuh | hap: read the section "What if I think I also deserve an invitation? | 23:48 |
| konfoo- | mbm haha exactly what i was wondering | 23:48 |
| zuh | " | 23:48 |
| zuh | at http://maemo.org/maemowiki/N800DeveloperDeviceProgram | 23:48 |
| hap | zuh: ah great. | 23:49 |
| [mbm] | suppose I might be a fake developer; I have no association with maemo but I'm behind a number of large open source projects | 23:49 |
| hap | zuh: shall I send my resume ? :p | 23:49 |
| c0ffee | that's too much for my nerves | 23:49 |
| c0ffee | now i have to wait 30min before the mta retries | 23:49 |
| * Jaffa orders with standard delivery now (would've been express earlier) | 23:49 | |
| Jaffa | c0ffee: gah | 23:49 |
| * [mbm] actually paid full price for an n800 | 23:50 | |
| koen | cool, nokia sell charger plug adaptors as well | 23:50 |
| koen | now I only need one charger for my phone and n770/n800 | 23:50 |
| zuh | hap: I'd rather start coding/porting/whatever :) | 23:50 |
| hap | zuh: "More information will be provided next Monday 22nd." is that today ? | 23:51 |
| c0ffee | is the gps kit for 800 available yet? | 23:51 |
| * Jaffa now wants to know if there was a ranking ;-) | 23:51 | |
| disq | (opens up irc client) mmm... didn't expect that DISCOUNT CODE! | 23:51 |
| *** KaL_dinner is now known as KaL | 23:51 | |
| hap | zuh: I'll start to play with it at first, see what it can take | 23:51 |
| jaeku | disq: huh? | 23:51 |
| zuh | *finally* I can go to bed, nighters ;) | 23:51 |
| hap | zuh: before spending time on it. I'll port few packages on the way i guess | 23:51 |
| |tbb| | c0ffee i think not yet, but the n770 version also run on the n800 and much faster | 23:51 |
| hap | zuh: but i would prefer to work on something that port packages for me, so I just have to check they work :] | 23:52 |
| * Tak fidgets | 23:52 | |
| disq | great news.. well. i was going to buy it this week anyway but now there's more reason to keep the updates coming. | 23:53 |
| jaeku | disq: what program do you maintain? | 23:54 |
| waite | tak, no code yet? | 23:56 |
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| Tak | none | 23:56 |
| disq | maemopad+, it's a mess right now didn't have time | 23:56 |
| waite | Hmm I wonder if they are mailing in blocks. I can't believe you'd be skipped. | 23:56 |
| * Tak shrugs | 23:56 | |
| waite | ANd we all know the internet is infinately fast and there is NEVER a delay :) | 23:57 |
| Tak | of course | 23:57 |
| bergie | waite: If I understood correctly they're now sending only european codes | 23:57 |
| bergie | or something | 23:57 |
| Tak | infinite bandwidth, zero latency | 23:57 |
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| waite | hehehe. bergie, I see | 23:57 |
| Tak | is that true? nobody who's gotten theirs is in the US? | 23:57 |
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| zuh | ah, almost forgot to plug my hack before sleeping: http://syslog.movial.fi/archives/43-Want-to-write-a-CPA-applet-for-Maemo-but-writing-C-gives-a-rash.html | 23:57 |
| Tak | come to think of it, htf would they know? | 23:57 |
| zuh | Now really to bed | 23:57 |
| waite | I think the long dealy was the data ming effort to try to deicde whom everyone on the list really was. IE match email addies from registered ICR users to itt to mailing lists to purchases. | 23:58 |
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| waite | s/ming/mining | 23:59 |
| waite | Good luck Tak | 23:59 |
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