IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2007-01-15

tigertsearch for "Single click install"00:00
seebsThis thing has really matured quite impressively.00:00
seebsA friend of mine got one, it was the last one at the CompUSA by his house, and they hadn't even put them out on counters yet.  Heh.00:00
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tigertso you can even try to make one on your own server00:01
tigertthen give it to inz to put it on the app catalog00:01
memnocthanks, I tested on the internal slot00:01
tigertor just put these as links to the app catalog00:01
tigertthe new app catalog supports these anyway00:01
guerbymemnoc, you're welcome00:02
memnocall the N800 needs now is a slingbox client ;)00:04
tigertok. sleep time.00:04
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ntrsI need minicom on n800 :)00:14
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memnocon the 800, do you still need to put it into r&d mode to gain root?00:24
seebsWhich is, as I recall, a change from 2006's behavior on the 770.00:25
seebsI seem to recall being able to get root without R&D mode on my 770 last I tried.00:26
memnocon the 770 you could just put dropbear on there right?00:26
seebsYup.  And actually, I think the same thing works with ssh on the n800.  Since I was already in R&D mode, though, I used a root shell to install ssh.00:27
memnocso the same dropbear binaries will work on the 800?00:28
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memnochrm, I'm on a win laptop, wonder if the linux flashwe will work on linux under vmware00:28
seebsI don't know about dropbear.  I haven't got it handy.00:29
guerbymemnoc, I got root without enabling R&D mode on my N800, just install ssh (as described on the works on IT2007 page) and do ssh root@localhost (default password)00:30
memnocso that's ossh right?00:31
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Jaffakoen: true, you can't expect these things to happen overnight.00:32
guerbymemnoc, yes, I used dropbear on N770, but on N800 since ssh is in std repo I didn't bother00:32
memnochrm, I don't see it in the repo00:33
guerbymemnoc, did you follow the instructions (enable red pill mode)00:33
memnocoh, I did not, sorry, I added 2 repos in the application manager00:33
memnocmaemo repo and maemo hackers00:34
guerbyApplication ssh00:34
guerby    *00:34
guerby      Status: Works.00:34
guerby    *00:34
guerby      How to install: Add same repo as for X Termina, then activate red pill, update list and then choose ssh from the list00:34
guerbymemnoc, worked for me at least :)00:34
memnocok having problems finding the link to what apps work in IT2007 I know I saw it on the site earlier00:35
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* cesman is disapointed the media streamer won't play mpeg200:39
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memnocshould I activate the red pill before adding any repos?00:39
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guerbymemnoc, should be indifferent. Did it work for you?00:46
memnocit did work00:48
memnocall's good00:49
memnochave root00:49
guerbymemnoc, I use ssh-keygen -t rsa to create a key for user to root00:49
memnocah, didn't edit gainroot?00:50
guerbymemnoc, could do too00:50
memnocactually probably locking the user and using ssh keys is probably the most secure00:50
guerbymemnoc, I usually ssh root@n800 from my desktop so I don't do much user to root in real life00:51
guerbyI changed the password00:51
guerbysudo gainroot might be useful for X applications (I'm not a specialist)00:51
guerbyI just enabled it just in case...00:55
memnocusing an ssh key is probably the best idea00:55
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memnocbtw, you use google talk with your 800 yet?00:56
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dwdEvening, all.00:57
guerbymemnoc, no, I have not made a call with it yet (I have an account I believe) want to try?00:57
memnocactually, I can't get my existing account to auth which is why I was asking01:00
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guerbymemnoc, hmm I don't remember what I did, but I don't remember having anything refused (I did not try a call though)01:01
memnocyeah i can't set my status as online01:03
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dwdJaffa: Ah, you're online. I justt sent you an email asking for netsurf01:04
guerbymemnoc, seems to work for me (laurent.guerby at
Jaffadwd: just about to bed. Armel or x86 target?01:06
JaffaI'll tar up the build + source and send it to you01:06
dwdArmel. No hurry, though01:07
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dwdOn GPRS, so I won't do anything until tomorrow.01:07
Jaffadwd: want the source, or just the executable?01:07
dwdSource might be fun, too.01:08
dwdBut the exec would be most important01:08
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guerbygn all01:12
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* Jaffa beds01:50
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Ayozehi all01:55
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obraHuh. I guess I have some hope of getting a USB charging solution for my N800 after all02:05
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thoughtfixAre we having fun yet?02:07
* Jaffa should be in bed.02:09
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gpddid i dream it - or did i see a hard case for N800?02:47
gpd -- europe atm02:50
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gpdafter my shopping tour today with full wifi and uber screen -- i forcee the end of shopping as we know it -- if everyone has google at their fingertips when in stores - they'll never buy anything in the real world again... :)02:57
gpdthey'll just browse -- then click 'order' on the tablet -- and leave!02:58
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qoshey guys03:03
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qosdoes somebody know why i get "W: GPG error: mistral Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 5FD45CD3EA68E29D" errors while updating my packages?03:04
gpdyes - you haven't added the key for that repository.03:05
qosbut where to get it?03:05
gpdi'm not sure where you would find it however03:05
qosand it was fine for a while ...03:05
qosthe problem is new ..03:05
gpdactually -- hackers might be inz department03:05
gpdin which case he told me the other day - let me check03:06
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qosthx a lot ...03:07
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qosdoes anyone here uses "dates"?03:13
gpdnot yet - i am using GPE Calendar so far03:14
gpdbut people do use it03:14
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qosbecause i cant install it. apt says that it cannot open /etc/
qosi checked it ... and the file does not exists03:15
qosgoogled a bit for it and found out that u can create it via ldconfig on regular linux distributions03:16
gpdwhere did you get the .deb?03:16
qosfrom the official responsitory03:17
gpdand are you trying to install a mistral .deb on an N800?03:17
qosi just have a 770 :)03:17
gpdwell -- i have /etc/ -- not config?03:18
qosi dont have it ...03:18
gpdjust make it --03:19
qosdidnt changed anything03:19
gpdempty file should be enough03:19
qosso ... wait a moment03:19
gpdthe only thing I have in my is /usr/X11R6/lib03:19
nomis"ldconfig" does not create /etc/
nomisit creates IIRC03:20
nomis(and it reads .conf as config-file)03:20
gpdanyone been getting 'cannot connect to one or more accounts' from the google chat thingy recently?  i am online my status is on - but i have flashing red/green button03:22
gpdonly started happening today03:23
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qosis it necessary to run "apt-get upgrade" from time to time? or should this never be done?03:26
gpdno - that is quite dangerous it seems03:26
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qosso, i have never done this ... and i wont try03:27
qosi always try to install dates 0.2x ... and it says that the process was successful but it is this dates 0.1x running on my device.03:30
qoscan i completely remove all packages and dependencies concerning dates?03:31
gpdyou can run dpkg --purge dates03:33
gpdany reason why you are not using GPE?03:33
qoswhats about this error? "/bin/sh: /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure: not found03:33
gpdi haven't used dates - so just curious03:33
gpdare you sure you have the right .deb?03:34
qosi like dates ... and there are all my dates in it :)03:34
gpdi don't have /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure on my box03:34
cesmanpre or re?03:35
cesmandidn't know there was a pre :)03:35
gpd[turns out the reason for my chat issues was /etc/resolv.conf = :(03:35
gpdbut not sure why - as it was served by my home router...03:37
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cesmangpd: you live in Los Angeles?04:12
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gpdcesman: yes - why?04:28
cesmangoing to be at SCALE?04:30
cesmanI'll have my n800 there at the KnoppMyth booth04:30
cesmanI have it streaming music and images from my mythtv backend, however no mpeg2 video04:31
cesmanI can get mythstreamtv working however the playback isn't very good04:32
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memnocanyone streaming stations from rahapsody?05:09
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memnocanyone try google talk with sip?07:26
bergiememnoc: maybe this helps?
bergiehaven't tried it though07:30
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memnocbergie I did, called gets terminated immediately08:25
memnoctried a SIP connection to a gizmoproject user08:31
memnocalso wondering if the Nokia Internet Chat beta is live yet, when I start going through the setup I get to where it wants to connecto outbound and it returns an error08:33
guerbymemnoc, did you manage to set up your gtalk account?08:36
memnocno idea what it was, definately getting some weird behavior with the whole Internet Call/google talk thing08:38
guerbymemnoc, interesting. not tried a call yet08:40
memnoci did a gtalk - gtalk call ok08:41
guerbymemnoc, with video?08:41
memnocgoogle's implementation of SIP is really funky so08:41
memnocgoogle talk on windows doesn't have video08:41
guerbymemnoc, want to try a call on my N800?08:41
memnocsure, give me 2 minutes08:42
guerbymemnoc, laurent.guerby at gmail.com08:42
memnocadded you08:43
memnocare you set p to reject invites?08:44
guerbyno I checked accept all08:44
memnoci am amazza@gmail.com08:44
guerbydid work :)08:47
memnocI've just been having weird issues with adding and removing people from my contact list08:48
memnocwhen I added you, it didn't see you, but when you added me, you showed up as laurent.GUERBY08:49
memnocis google talk case sensitive?08:49
guerbymemnoc, no idea08:49
guerbymemnoc, my account name is "Laurent GUERBY" my email laurent.guerby08:51
guerbymemnoc, may be the "allow all" doesn't work after all08:52
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tigertyou need to ask for authorization09:18
tigerthold the stylus on the contact and select request authorization from the menu09:19
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JaffaMorning, all11:01
keesj770Hi Jaffa11:01
nokwhen I install dropbear, does it automatically create the RSA key?  or do I have to create it?11:02
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AD-N770good morning11:12
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Guardianmorning all11:36
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Jaffakeesj770: mud can now do dependency tracking for tarball fetches (although it doesn't yet add them in to the debian/control file)11:41
Guardian --> is it where we should report bugs ?11:42
Guardianor is it still non read by nokia ?11:42
JaffaAgainst the device and core software, yes.11:42
JaffaQuite a few bugs there have commentary and fixes from Nokia.11:42
Guardianwell it's again about the input method tutorial which depends on 2 packages11:43
Guardiani downloaded nokia binaries11:43
JaffaIt's certainly the *best* place to report bugs. If they're there, there's no excuse.11:43
Guardianand tried to apt-get install the mentionned packages11:43
Guardianhowever, it complains about pkconfig11:43
Guardianwhich makes me hesitating entering a bug about those packages11:43
Guardianbecause it's prolly related to pkgconfig, and i think someone already mentioned a problem related to pkgconfig here11:44
JaffaWhy the hesitation?11:44
Guardiani'm not into filling in bugs without being sure there's a bug11:44
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JaffaGuardian: ;-)11:44
JaffaHow confident are you that you installed Scratchbox correctly?11:44
Guardianit just runs fine on all my targets11:45
Guardiani'm running apophis with herring,scirocco (compiling only) and bora11:45
JaffaGuardian: If someone's mentioned it here, but not put it into Bugzilla, there's no harm (and probably lots of benefit) of putting it in Bugzilla. Wouldn't take long to check.11:47
suihkulokkiGuardian: I've seen the pkg-config thing mentioned before, i think it a rootstrap bug.11:47
GuardianJaffa: here is the output of apt-get if you want to have a look
Guardiani guess it's a problem with pkgconfig, and of course doing apg-get install -f as suggested by the prompt just removes nearly everything :)11:48
JaffaI'd agree with suihkulokki, sounds like a rootstrap bug so I'd log it in bugzilla11:48
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Guardianwell, pkg-config search on bugzilla yields zaroo boogs found :)11:55
Guardianok gonna fill a bug for the sdk then11:56
inzGuardian, there was discussion about this in the m-dev list11:56
inzGuardian, the pkg-config gets provided by the sbox if you use the installer11:56
inzGuardian, I used scirocco to get pkg-config, installers be damned ;)11:57
Guardiani did not use the installer11:57
Guardianbecause i had several apophis targets that were already set up11:57
Guardianinz: indeed
Guardianthe thread does not offer a solution though12:00
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keesjJaffa,  nice thing about the deps tracking for tar , I will only really have time for maemo later this week.12:02
X-Fadetigert: Do you know what happened to test.maemo?12:06
Jaffakeesj: cool, hopefully it'll be even better then ;-) If you produce any packages you think should be included, feel free to send me them12:08
inzGuardian, you could rip the virtual package bits from the installer script12:08
keesjJaffa,  don't worry I will12:08
Jaffakeesj: cool12:08
keesjif building is easy I am also ready provide building for one of the os targets12:09
Jaffakeesj: excellent. My Scratchbox is still running scirocco as I want to test on my 770 :)12:10
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Guardianinz: yes i was about to try that, however i need to switch to something else atm :/12:11
Guardianinz: grrr damn users that don't use the provided installer script and don't want to stick to SDK_PC and SDK_ARM targets :D12:12
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bedboihi there.12:24
inzGuardian, the installer script is easy to mod to use others12:26
keesj"Maemo is application development platform for Nokia Internet Tablet products" on 's front page . Is that supposed to be english or funny ?12:27
Guardianjust typo12:27
Guardian"zaroo boogs found" is supposed to be funny12:28
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keesjI really dislike that "zaroo boogs found"12:30
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keesjI wonder what the next steps would be with this bounty idea. I can not do much more right now. Is it such a bad idea?12:40
* Jaffa dunnos, I thought I could see some benefit in it, but the studies linked to were fairly negative in their conclusions of effectiveness.12:42
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c0ffeei think it could be good for supporting ppl doing the unsexy stuff12:42
c0ffeelike writing docs or fixing legacy stuff12:42
JaffaWho's going to put a bounty up for unsexy stuff, though? :-(12:42
c0ffeewhich doesn't get as much attention as fancy new features12:42
c0ffeethat would be the second part of my speech :)12:43
c0ffeei'm pretty sure this won't happen12:43
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keesjhmm , I see it in a different way. I see more like the "end users" wanting something and developers /guru's creating something12:45
JaffaI suppose if a developer has an itch in a particular area, it's rewarding to know that a) others want it; b) they want it badly enough to contribute some token amount to its development.12:46
c0ffeehum hum12:46
c0ffeein a perfect world maybe12:46
keesj(like a home plugin to write applets in python), a gui for syngergy , stuff like that , I don't think it is very boring12:46
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c0ffeeanyway, i think the current state, i.e. that nokia is rewarding stuff that they want, is suboptimal as well12:47
keesjalright , but I understand that there are many questions.12:48
keesjI for one never pressed such a "donate" button that you see on many pages12:48
Jaffakeesj: it could be interesting, but I think it needs careful designing (e.g. a "panel" of people moderating requests so it doesn't get silly: "I want to run Half Life 2 on my 770: $5,000,000"12:49
keesjI want to run Half Life 2 on my 770 cluster12:50
Jaffa...and merging common requests.12:50
keesjI think that the would be a good start12:51
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Jaffakeesj: I think that page (historically) have shown how bad users are at requesting things. e.g. things which have already been done, not enough detail etc. Perhaps it's worth looking at things like Google Answers and the Yahoo! equivalent to see how they handle a lot of this stuff?12:53
keesjhow about the Bluetooth Headset Support .Of course I want that, I can't do it myself. I feel lost because I have no control over that. I can only hope (just like for the developers program :))12:55
* jpetersen started to create a personal accounting software for maemo. See
keesjgoogle answers?12:56
Jaffakeesj: AIUI, they're effectively "bounties for answers to random questions"12:56
Jaffajpetersen: cool12:57
jpetersenit is a port of the HomeBank ( application12:57
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keesjhow about voting for bugs?13:05
JaffaIsn't pledging a bounty a vote? Even if it's just a micropayment like $0.1013:09
c0ffeei have a donate button on my homepage13:11
c0ffeein like 3 years, somebody donated $10 once13:12
inzAnd you were happy for 10 minutes?13:13
c0ffeethe website costs 12.50 euro/month13:13
c0ffeegoogle ads brings like $5/month13:13
c0ffeethat's better13:13
c0ffeei think something like this would be better:13:15
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c0ffeenokia gives you a device and a task what to do with it13:15
c0ffeebecause in the end, you're stuck with the information they release and the changes they are willing to take over anyway13:15
c0ffeea real user-driven development would require a more free platform imho13:16
* Jaffa 'd imagined it for more end-user stuff (e.g. Java applet plugin for Opera - theoretically doable by a 3rd party)13:16
* cesman transcoded a 5.4G HD recording to 175M w/ 770-encode.pl13:16
Jaffacesman: any problems? if so, drop me a mail (or any other suggestions you've got for it)13:16
cesmanno major problems13:17
partwhat's the fascination with java here? I don't get it13:17
cesmanJaffa: is that your script?13:17
Jaffacesman: yup13:17
cesmanmind if I include it in my next release of KnoppMyth?13:17
Jaffapart: I like Java as a language, J2ME has lots of apps, and some online banks (not mine) require a Java applet for authentication13:18
Jaffacesman: be my guest!13:18
cesmanmplayer seemed a little buggy in playing it back13:18
* Jaffa wants to be able to hack Java/Groovy/Grails on the move as well13:18
cesmanthe media player worked fine!13:18
cesmanwell, off to bed13:18
cesmanshould have been there hours ago13:19
c0ffeepart, probably the same as with python :)13:19
VeggenNokia N800 is on a car, on it's way here some time today.13:20
Veggen("out for delivery" according to the tracking system)13:20
dottedmagHi. I'd like to port changes done in osso-rss-feed-reader to the new upstream liferea version. Sadly, osso-rss-feed-reader is built as native package, and hence there is no orig.tar.gz and no diff.gz. I found reader is based on some CVS snapshot of liferea-0.6.0. Could someone of the Nokia developers check the exact date of snapshot (or may be even give me a tarball)?13:20
partjaffa: j2me has lots of non-free apps, not interesting at all13:20
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tigertX-Fade: we are moving around in the office building13:22
tigertX-Fade: and at least our internal servers are on the move right now13:23
tigertX-Fade: if test.maemo was one of them, it'd be getting installed on a new place soon13:23
_matthias_ahm ... anyone knows if n770 logs bt connections13:23
_matthias_i just cant get online via bt and gprs13:24
X-Fadetigert: Ah :) I wanted to do some work on it over the weekend, but it was down..13:25
inzdotted, you sure it isn't 0.6.0 final?13:27
inzdotted, at least comparing the ChangeLog file to CVS would indicate 0.6.013:28
dottedmaginz: Well, upstream does not tag releases :(13:28
inzBut they have liferea-0_6_0 branch13:30
dottedmaginz: you're right. I was confused by the fact ChangeLog was updated with 0.6.0 release date only after release.13:31
dottedmagugh. It would be tough work. 43k changed lines not counting changed whitespace.13:32
dottedmag*it will be13:32
* sbaturzio is away: Lunch time...13:32
dottedmagdamn. I just need the digest HTTP auth.13:34
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lardmanThis may be a silly question, but is it possible to combine object files without a linker throwing errors for missing functions?13:38
lardmanWhen one compiles the more complex DSP examples, they come in multiple source files, and each one produces an object file (.obj)13:39
lardmanNow the DSP seems to expect to execute this object code rather than linked code (as the linker seems to want to link statically)13:39
lardmanSo I may just need to work out why the linker is linking statically I suppose (because this includes the avs_kernel.obj code, which makes it fail to run, and is rather large too)13:40
lardmanIs that intelligible?13:41
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tigertX-Fade: I think I was wrong13:50
tigertX-Fade: ferenc replied13:50
tigerton your mail it seems13:50
tigertits back up13:50
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X-Fadetigert: Yeah, out of memory issue ;)13:54
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oleavrhi, is the video call invitation activation supposed to work? (thought I'd ask here before starting to debug it)14:24
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dballesterhi to all14:29
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Veggenmmmm, is the new application catalog updated with OS2007-stuff? Is that where you'd go nowadays?14:33
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Guardianis there moderation on the dev mailing list ?14:51
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JaffaGuardian: no, but it's configured to not send your email back to you15:33
Guardianoh explains the delay then :)15:33
* Jaffa always gets caught out by it and I usually go and check the archives to see if it's been delivered ;)15:34
* Jaffa sees Guardian's post about IMs, though15:34
HGFBDoes anyone know how to do a right mouse click in Scummvm?15:41
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JaffaDoes tap and hold work?15:42
HGFBDunno. I had enough trouble doing a hold mouse button on one of the puzzles in the Dig15:42
HGFBYou have to hold down a button to activate a light bridge. It was a bugger to make it stick15:42
HGFBShortly I'll have to use the right mouse to rotate some puzzle pieces. No idea how though15:43
VeggenHmm. Is there only the "OS2007 tested applications" page for OS2007-apps?15:43
VeggenNo software catalog with one-click install yet?15:43
JaffaVeggen: not really yet, no.15:44
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nnodthere doesn't appear to be any software that uses the camera on the OS2007 tested applications, and the only project in the garage seems to be only 5 days old. does anyone know if there's anything else being developed?15:52
JaffaVery few developers will have an N800 at the moment due to the "promise" of a developer discount scheme, but no codes or dates having been announced. So everyone's waiting for a device to play with.15:53
VeggenJaffa: ok. I had no hope as being recognized as one, yet. So I ordered one myself.15:55
nnodi take it the camera is v4l compatible? so an application like ekiga could be ported15:55
keesjWhy does it have to take so long to get a clear picture , that is really all that I am asking15:55
Jaffannod: yes, it seems to be v4l2 compatible AIUI. There's also a tutorial on maemo.org15:57
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partnnod: yes, it's v4l2, and please port ekiga :)15:58
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chxgpd: hi16:00
nnodekiga would be nice on the n80016:00
tigertnnod: its v4l216:02
tigertand duh, I am slow :)16:02
tigertbest to use gstreamer to poke with it of course16:02
nnodin my experience the difference between v4l and v4l2 is pretty transparent to the developer16:03
tigertyea, I dont know about that16:03
tigertyou can apt-get install gstreamer-tools from the maemo repository for bora,16:04
nnodi didn't know gstreamer did v4l*...16:04
* pahartik would like Ekiga on Maemo even without camera16:05
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nnodare there even 500 developers working in the maemo community? it seems like a lot to me16:07
JaffaThey're including people who've contributed to the software stack at lower levels, rather than just Maemo userspace directly.16:09
JaffaThey need a new abacus though, it's taking ages to get up (or down) to 500.16:10
dottedmagWell, then there is still a chance to write something spectacular for 770 and get the device :)16:12
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keesjI have a garage project for sale , it is a few month old16:15
keesjnever been used before16:16
keesjhmm perhaps I must say it has been used16:16
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pcfeis somebody with root access on the wiki box on?16:55
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X-Fadepcfe: Ferenc might be able to help you. What is it for?16:58
bergiepcfe: Ferenc is on Jabber but marked away16:58
pcfeI broke ApplicationCatalogWishlist this morning when I reverted it to a verison that was not spam defaced16:58
pcfenot quite sure what I did wrong,16:59
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pcfebut the page geves 500 ever since then.16:59
pcfeso you may want to log in the logs at what the wiki engine is nagging at16:59
partthe wiki is once again very slow17:00
pcfeif ends up at Ferenc and it is not 99% spam, then he'll see the mail I sent, but I fear it's gonna be one of those addresses that just drown in spam17:00
partnice, internal server error from the wiki17:01
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suihkulokkiwith spam filters well in place, I had almost forgotten spam exists17:02
suihkulokkibut last weekenk when I transferred a mail server, I realized it has become impossible to watch mail.log with tail -f17:03
suihkulokkion a server with about 30 user accounts..17:03
partinternet email is broken17:03
chxalas :(17:04
pcfeyeah, won't be long until I go to whitelists17:04
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tigertI mostly just ignore email17:07
tigertit sucks fundamentally17:08
tigertthere is just too much of it17:08
k-sman, just now I got the final n800... it's really great17:08
k-si was working with an old prototype... and was upset17:09
k-sbut the final version really rocks, much faster17:09
k-snow to make canola rock too17:09
pcfehmm, now where was that list of tested 4 GB cards again. Gotta go to the big electronics store tomorrow anyway, might as well pick one up17:11
* k-s has no memory card17:12
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VeggenI think I might go for 2GB. Or is 4GB considered safe enough?17:15
Veggen(going to the big electronics store today, I think)17:15
pcfeVeggen: that's why I asked for the list. 2GB is reputedly safe, but anything above 2 is a case of may or may not work17:15
mgedminthere is a kernel patch to support SDHC cards, but so far no success reports17:15
mgedmin(and no failure reports either, just nobody tried it yet)17:16
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Molagihmm anyone got that mplayer working yet with n800?17:19
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tigertVeggen: dstone said that some older 4GB ones work that use the old addressing mode or something17:21
tigertso its officially 2GB limit17:21
tigertbut some 4GB cards uses the same addressing scheme and they _might_ work if you are lucky17:22
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part2GB is safe, I'd go for that17:22
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tigertie, new 4GB cards use different mode or soemthing and theres no driver for that in the kernel17:24
tigerteven though it is electronically compatible17:24
tigertthis is what I remember dstone saying17:24
tigertsearch the irc logs17:24
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* osfameron stamps his feet and waits for N800 to arrive17:30
chxtigert: right. SD-HC is new. Some 4GB cards are using normal SD but being 4Gbyte they are basically incompatible with everything17:33
tigertsomething like that17:33
osfameronwhat's a good OTG hard drive to use with a N800 ?17:34
nnodi think SD 1.0/1.1 can support up to 4GB if fat32 is used17:35
nnodbut yes, the addressing schemes between SD and SDHC are different17:36
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mokkiAt least the linux kernel will support it soon
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Zer0Her0_i know this has been probably asked a million times, but i've been so busy i totally missed the new OS release, will the new maemo run on the 770 or is it solely for the 80018:11
JaffaSee topic.18:13
Zer0Her0_the topic cuts off at new image: for me18:13
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JaffaZer0Her0_: "2007ish release plans for the 770:"18:15
DisconnectZer0Her0_: fyi you can type /topic to get the full list (in most clients)18:15
Zer0Her0_Jaffa: thank you18:16
Zer0Her0_Disconnect: sadly not in this client.18:16
nnodZer0Her0_: it was also talked about recently on the mailing list in this thread:
Zer0Her0_thank you18:16
Disconnect /quote topic #maemo (or /quote list #maemo) should do it, cuz thats dependent on the server rather than the client18:17
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lasalaordering from is a giant hassle... placed the order last week and still have the status appear "in progress". when i call them they tell me i have to verify some information and transfer me to a different department. after 30 mins on hold i hang up19:16
osfameronoh, that's handy, you can check your order status online...19:19
osfameronexcept then, when I do, it says there's no record of it19:19
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osfameronaha, I bought from (for Italy) rather than nokiashop.it19:21
* pcfe is very glad that the N800 was actually available in stores last Tuesday and just dropped by to pick one up.19:21
sbaturzioosfameron: just bought this afternoon, I'll tell you when it arrive19:21
osfameronsbaturzio: I ordered yesterday :-)  I'll race ya!19:22
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osfameronpcfe: yeah, I'd have bought in shop, but the nokia point in Florence hadn't heard of it, never mind stocking it19:23
Zer0Her0_so the overall consensus on the 800 is good?19:23
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pcfeMuch nicer than 770. Played with it for 10 minutes at the store and decided to get it right then.19:24
pcfethe bigger memory helps having more apps open at the same time (no OOM killings yet)19:24
pcfethe faster CPU makes it all more snappy19:24
pcfethe integrated deskstand is a marvelous idea19:24
SuperQARG, now I have to buy a new toy19:24
osfameronthe life of a geek is hard19:26
Zer0Her0_how much faster is the CPU?19:30
Zer0Her0_yea the deskstand is awesome idea, i hate the old one.19:30
SuperQI dunno if anyone has done any real benchmarks19:31
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lle2Zer0Her0_: 252MHz ARM9 vs. 330MHz ARM1119:35
Zer0Her0_lle2: thank you19:36
Zer0Her0_hmm never really played with any ARM11 devices.19:36
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zuhFor the case of Cairo:
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lle2zuh: is that still with floating point heavy cairo?19:41
zuhIt's 1.3.10 without the --disable-some-fp flag19:42
lle2zuh: if it is, it doesn't really say too much :(19:42
lle2ok, then that's more about comparing the vfp unit with linux kernel floating point emulator19:43
zuhhmmh, ok19:43
zuhDo you have a good explanation for the difference in image(memory) and xlib backends too?-)19:44
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lle2;) blitting diff is real19:44
zuhI was going to rerun the tests with the less-fp flag on, but had to stay home for today.19:45
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lle2zuh: when using xlib you've got to account for the extra copy to the external fb19:48
Molagiim getting my n800 this wednesday19:48
lle2zuh: so there's basically twice the memory bandwidth load19:48
Molagiso prepare for lot of helpdesking19:48
lle2zuh: at least, maybe even worse19:48
* koen wonders when the devcontest will end19:48
lle2zuh: benchmarking this baby is much tricksier than I would hope for19:49
zuhlle2: so why it is up to 4 times faster than the image backend if it also does twice the work...?-)19:49
zuhahem, actually "up to four times faster than what image backend is faster"...19:50
lle2zuh: I don't know what an "image backend" for cairo is or how it does it's stuff19:51
lle2zuh: but maybe it's a super-naive implementation?19:51
zuhIt's basically sw implementation, everything happens in-memory19:53
lle2zuh: and then the benchmark could be broken, since X is async by default, you could be measuring completely bogus stuff19:53
lle2zuh: I had a lot of fun trying to benchmark the "hw acceleration" features in 77019:53
lle2zuh: ultimately I figured I could make the benchmark produce exactly the result I wanted19:54
lle2which made the whole exercise quite useless19:54
mokkidoes the TI 2420 on N800 have VFP9 or VFP10? ( or ) or something else?19:55
zuhWell, I'm not exactly sure how the xlib benchmark works, but I'd think the people who did it are not completely unaware of the async nature of things ;19:55
lle2zuh: that may be, but when you disable async, you're also influencing how the X server does things, or at least that was the case with my version of Xomap19:56
lasalalol after over one hour on hold with nokia they tell me that the people who do order verification are stucked at home because of an ice storm19:56
lle2zuh: it could no longer accumulate stuff to be transferred to the external fb19:56
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lle2zuh: so it degraded the performance a lot19:58
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lardmanWould one of you benchmarking gents mind running a test on the fp implementation on the n800?20:03
lardman, or compile it yourself like so:
lle2lardman: maybe later, in three or four hours20:05
lardmanAh, ignore me, I've gone mad, I've already been sent the result20:06
lardmanTime to go home I think20:06
gpdcesman: sorry - got cutoff by cable company for 12hrs - i am now booked into SCALE :)20:06
lardmanI would be interested to see what kind of difference is makes to running Octave scripts though eventually20:07
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lardmannight all20:07
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lardman|goneHmm, nope I wasn't mad, if someone wouldn't mind running paranoia, I'd be interested to see the results. Thanks, bye20:09
zuhIs it just me, or is dog slow?20:11
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gpdThe arithmetic diagnosed appears to be Excellent!20:11
Disconnectlardman|gone: ditto here20:16
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tzzdoes anyone know if the pop-up keyboard can be modified to have extra keys or an extra panel of keys (similar to the symbols panel)?  This would be application-specific, not for every app.20:35
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minrai still dont have internet at home, whats new?20:35
tzzideally I'd like a Ctrl and Alt modifier key in the main pop-up20:37
tzzF1 through F12 would be nice too.20:37
chxgpd: hi. Any news with PHP? Drupal 5 is released today.20:37
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minrathe new mplayer is amazing20:38
mgedmintzz: apparently it is impossible to have Ctrl or Alt in the vkb20:38
mgedminthe docs mention the possibility, but it looks like an early idea that was later abandoned20:39
mgedminas far as I can tell, you can have 3 rows of keys in the alphabetic section, and 4 rows of keys in the numpad section20:39
mgedminI do not think you can squeeze any more keys20:39
* mgedmin wanted to add an AltGr to the right of space, and have a 3rd shift level, but couldn't find a way to do it20:40
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tzzmgedmin: thanks!20:46
tzzmgedmin: I was hoping to avoid menus in the Emacs port I'm doing, but I guess I'll have to have a "Meta+" and "Ctrl+" menu as osso-xterm has.20:47
keesjsometime the thumpad buffer seams to filled with text originating from opera , and every time I start typing the text is back again , it there a way to avoid/ empty the buffer?20:48
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mgedmintzz: better look up the vncviewer package for inspiration20:48
mgedminthe way osso-xterm implements Ctrl+X is very suboptimal20:48
tzzmgedmin: got it.  I didn't think of remapping the hardware keys.  That should be pretty easy with a site init.el20:49
tzzmgedmin: they are just F keys, right?20:49
mgedminsome, yes20:49
mgedminbut I meant the toolbar that vncviewer has20:49
mgedminone of the toolbar buttons pops up a menu where you can check/uncheck Ctrl/Alt etc.20:49
tzzmgedmin: I remember their VK constants are defined somewhere in the osso libs, but it's better to use F keys and keep Emacs as close to the source as possible.20:50
tzzI haven't played with vncviewer, so I'll try it to see what you mean.20:50
mgedminthere are two toolbar buttons: one makes the virtual keyboard apper20:51
tzzthe problem with Emacs is, you really just want a modifier for the next key, not a popup "send Meta+ or Ctrl+" toolbar IMO.20:51
mgedminother has a menu with ctrl/alt/shift as toggleable menu items, and submenus for sending F1..F12, arrow keys of all sorts, etc.20:51
mgedminthen maybe add two  buttons to the toolbar -- C- and M-20:52
tzzOK, I'll take a look.  That was very helpful, thanks!20:52
tzzheh, I'll add a Hyper modifier if I'm feeling mischievous.20:53
minraanybody here using a bluetooth keyboard?20:55
Whizhmm.. I'm wondering how in the he** local computer store can sell N770 with price of only ~320 EUR as the still sells it at 365 EUR or something.. before n800 arrived the n770 was sold with a pricetag of over 400 EUR20:55
minrai get crashes in many apps, mainly opera, selecting the input textbox, while a bluetooth kbd is connected ... 2.020:55
minrawhiz, nokia sells to resellers at a cheaper price21:01
minrathey can resell with a small profit, less than nokia charges21:02
minraif someone here wants to make a little money, they could sell 770s with 2GB cf cards with updated software21:02
minrabut it would not be much money21:02
minrayou could even bundle open source games21:03
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pahartik,Wii Whiz21:07
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Whizhi, I'm Tero21:07
pahartikWhiz: and I forgot that I am not using Irssi21:08
Whizpahartik, :)21:09
pahartikWhiz: ...while walking around outside21:09
pahartikHello Whiz21:10
tkoMDK, :)21:11
* pahartik does not know how to define "," as command character on X-Chat21:14
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keesjwhat is commoditization?21:16
tko ?21:17
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pahartikWhiz: I suppose I got Nokia 770 device from store you refer to, about two weeks before Nokia N800 appeared21:18
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keesjtko, sorry kdict did not know the answer21:19
pahartikWhiz: that is their domain name21:19
Whizpahartik, yes, byt that is also what they call themselves.. Or would you known the company if I'd said Arctecho Oy21:20
Whizatleast in radio commersials they sing :)21:21
Molagiheh i had 770 ordered two days before n800 was announced, thank god i had some time to cancel the order21:21
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pahartikWhiz: you know details...21:21
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Whizpahartik, :) I work in Lauttasaari and my daily route from home to work goes through the shopping mall that has a verkkokauppa store in it :)21:23
lle2hmm, maybe someone could make a little money selling insurances against immediate obsolescence21:23
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pahartikWhiz: I was not disappointed about lower price21:24
Whizand when browsing my bank account statement I often see Artecho Oy21:24
WhizI didnt mean that I'm disappointed about the lower price, just wondering about the huge difference in just couple of days.21:25
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pahartikWhiz: yes, other stores seem to stick with same price21:29
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* pahartik gets back to Irssi (and inside)21:34
pahartikWhiz: what have you done with Nokia 770 device so far?21:35
Whizpahartik, humm.. I mainly use it for checking timetables when I'm off somewhere, also read comics (, rss feed, and on longer journeys I watch movies and at home I use it to listen webradio.21:37
Whizmm.. I almost forgot IRC :)21:39
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* Disconnect is about to use his 770 in its most important task yet - as a holder/charger for the n800 backup battery ;)21:41
tko"So a major design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was originally determined by the width of a horse's arse." :)21:42
pahartikWhiz: mostly similar to what I do, then... HTTP, IRC... listen to MPEG ADTS AAC content when going outside21:43
Taksounds like the ultimate width determination to me21:43
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pahartikWhiz: what I hope to find someday is IMAP/SMTP client and application for storing authentication information in encrypted form21:47
Whizsoppakirja might work if you get perl and gpg working :) (that can be found from that same url I've pasted earlier)21:48
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pahartikWhiz: I found it... but it is Perl :)21:59
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Whizpahartik, Password Safe for Maemo IT2006 (Nokia 770) Password Safe is a tool that allows you to have a different password for all the different programs and websites that you deal with, without actually having to remember all those usernames and passwords.22:00
Takwhat's the word about audio on the n800?22:03
Takis it still esd or gstreamer?22:03
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Takor do we get alsa now?22:03
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pahartikWhiz: now, that looks acceptable, and something I have not seen before... much like "Keyring" on PalmOS device22:03
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Jaffapahartik: for IMAP/SMTP there's Sylpheed: </plug>22:16
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purexhi everybody. can you please help me with this question: how do i access ctrl or alt buttons on the virtual keyboard. Will get a BT keyboard soon but for now i have to use the virtual one22:39
||cwpurex: the little menu on the left side of the kb, IIRC22:41
keesjpurex, in the xterm you must use the "menu" button and select terminal22:42
purexoh.. thanx22:42
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wasabin800 has no usb host mode support does it?22:47
wasabijust checking. ;)22:47
glassdoes the same hack as on 770 work?22:47
wasabii'd be VERY interested in real usb host mode support though. I've wanted to builda  car mount that hooks it up to internal HDs22:48
glasswell the thing on 770 is that you just need to feed the 5v... and then some software of course22:49
wasabiYeah, and you have to reboot it to put it in a different mode.22:50
wasabiNot exactly "step into your car and plug it in"22:50
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wasabiI guess you could "get it working" with bluetooh, but it'd be a big pain in the ass.22:51
wasabiYou'd need a bluetooth receiver in the car, which would mean you need software to drive it.22:51
wasabiUnless there's a bluetooth to SATA converter someplace I'm not aware of. :022:52
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glasswell, depending how much you're willing to put to it.. you might be better off building a carpc that's controlled via bt or wifi from the 77022:56
glassor 800022:56
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Guardiangenerally speaking, is there something else than dbus to achieve inter application communications ?22:57
Guardian(for my unix culture)22:58
wasabiglass: Yeah, unfortunatly that's a big work.22:59
wasabiI'd rather a HD sitting in the back, with power supplied to it, and a USB cable running to the 770 :022:59
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wasabiGuardian: sockets, pipes, shared memory.23:00
keesjI thing shared memory ,pipes and sockets are the best known, corba was also used for gnome I don't know if it is still the case23:00
keesjthing = think23:00
wasabiGuardian: stdin. ;)23:00
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pahartikWhiz: that "pwsafe" application seems to be good enough for storing authentication information23:02
Whizpahartik, good to know :)23:02
chxwasabi: while BT hard drives are rare , wifi hard drives are very common23:03
wasabihmm that's true.23:03
wasabiJust, a bit more complicated than I'd like.23:03
Guardianok so let say i want my application to be able to receive custom messages like "do this, do that" , what's the easiest way ?23:04
Guardiansimple messages that is23:04
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wasabiAlso, the 770 would probably have issues with being connected to BT and wifi23:04
wasabiGuardian: Depends on where your application is running.23:04
wasabiAnd what you wnat ot send the messgaes23:04
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Guardianwasabi: well 2 processes running on the same platform, simple message like "open this window", "switch to this mode" etc23:05
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Guardianwhat's the advantages of dbus over pipes ?23:06
c0ffeeis it known what audio chip the 770 uses?23:06
wasabiGuardian: dbus promotes defined protocols better.23:06
wasabiAnd it does the parsing of data on it's own, etc.23:07
wasabiA socket is just a bit bucket.23:07
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wasabias is a pipe, etc.23:08
wasabidbus is also "more public"23:08
wasabiOther things other than your two talking programs can and do listen.23:08
Guardianso using dbus would typically lead to less coding efforts ?23:08
MDKthey're already selling iphone on german amazon23:11
MDK1000 euro unlocked23:11
zuhc0ffee: Apparently something labeled AIC23 (but that's all I get from mail archive & googling)23:11
zuhMDK: url?23:12
c0ffeesounds possible23:12
c0ffeeat least there are some sources for it available23:12
xanMDK, do you know about that? I can't help to think about it each time I see your nick23:13
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keesjI think of mandrake23:13
MDKzuh: check frontpage23:14
MDKxan: yeah, I used to play mdk I23:15
jtrakeesj: me too23:15
MDKthough, the nick is just my initials23:15
xanit's clearly the best game ever23:15
||cwMDK: it's not there23:15
MDK||cw: how about using that "search" box?23:16
MDKxan: btw, onne is proceeding good on gtk rewrite23:17
MDKhe was showing me some nice stuff today23:17
xanthose cut&paste headers from are the lamest thing ever23:17
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xanMDK, *ahem*23:18
MDKxan: true. But from what I read on daring fireball, people are actually buying this stuff from amazon.de23:18
xanMDK, tell him to fix bugs in gtk+ and stop smoking crack23:18
xanif he's not willing to spend 5 years in his rewrite I think he'll get better results from that23:19
feruloI could join rapicorn effort23:19
MDKwell... i guess fixing gtk bugs might lead to miserable life too ;)23:19
chxiPhone ... what's the point? it has no keyboard. It has no 3G. It is so expensive that it hurts.23:20
MDKgtk will look like motif in one year ;)23:20
MDKI mean, like motif looks now23:20
chxMDK: is that bad or good news :P ?23:21
MDKchx: let's not start the discussion ;)23:21
xanMDK, remind me to remind you about this in one year23:21
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MDKxan: I'll23:21
MDKxan: but next year is going to be the year of desktop linux, riiiiiiight? ;)23:22
xanmost likely gtk+ will have fewer bugs and more functionality in one year, and onne's thing will be bit-rotting in his laptop. And I know stop-energy sucks, but we should get serious about improving gtk+23:22
chxIf I want to burn 5-600 dollars I buy a HTC TyTN or much rather in 2-3 months, the upcoming Kaiser which is a thinner version of it with GPS.23:22
chxYear of Desktop Linux will cometh when Ubuntu Bug 1 will be marked fixed :P23:23
glasstytn is for different use23:25
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roopeTyTN is ... the hardware is quite niec, but the software is pretty awful.23:25
glasshw isn't THAT nice either23:26
roopeWell, the qwerty keypad isn't that bad.23:26
MDKxan: I added this conversation to we'll have some fun in 15 Jan 2008 ;)23:26
roopethe design is very non-sexy.23:26
xanMDK, heh, nice service23:26
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glassanyways, tytns reso is crappy, if you compare it 770 wise,    and as a phone i can't bare to use any wm523:27
glasskeyboard and pocketputty and such are nice..23:27
||cwwhat's that hildon UI based linux phone that's supposed to released this year23:27
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glassbeats me23:27
||cwyeah that one23:28
chxI only told the channel already yesterday: I want something significantly smaller than my 12" subnotebook (weight wise as well. it's 1.2-1.3kg) which has a QWERTY keyboard and enough horsepower to devel a PHP CMS (Drupal)23:28
MDKsince when it's hildon-based?23:28
roopecolour me skeptical.23:28
||cwread some of the list archives, sounds pretty sweet23:28
glass640x480 wm5 devices are horribly slow too..23:28
chxI am eyeing the N800 with a Sierra keyboard. gpd told me he tested PHP on 770 and it was terribly slow but he will test it on N800 this week.23:29
||cwMDK: maybe only some of it is?  just some references to hildon in the mailing list, liek
MDKas a hildon-libs maintainer I can tell you, that it'd better not be hildon-based ;)23:30
||cwit's certianly gtk23:31
chxso, anyone has some good ideas about such a device? I am also eyeing the Sony 101 or one of its successors23:31
||cwMDK: and why not23:31
zuh||cw: I think that reference to hildon is purely in the sense of concept, not actually using it :)23:31
roopechx: Quite limited options. There was this one really strange looking device, hmm.23:32
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chxroope: the Sony U101 actually looks good to what I want but where can I get one of such an old device which was not officially sold outside of Japan...?23:32
||cwchx: main issues are going to be cpu and memory, takes like 12 meg just to load a common php binary with one db extention23:33
gpdchx: i' should be more able to test soon -- just delayed my presentation! :)23:33
chx||cw: I hardly need more than instance than a PHP binary :)23:33
chxI checked the Sony U101 weight. it's 900 grams. Too much.23:34
gpdchx: can you point me toward the drupal-sqlite stuff? Does drupal 5 have any support built in?23:34
roopewell OQO of course.23:34
chxroope: OQO?? Hmmmmmmmmmm does Linux run on that?23:35
glassit should?23:35
roopeI guess you could install it.23:35
glassit's a pc after all23:35
chxgpd: there is a patch but no support in Drupal 5. I hope for Drupal 6.23:35
chxSony U71?23:36
roopeoqo1 starts at 1199$. oqo2 at 1499$.23:36
chxI have not mentioned price23:36
glassor flybook, if it's not too big23:36
chxI barely care about price23:36
chxflybook is huge23:36
tigertyea, I cannot really understand how people even compared the 770 to a UMPC23:36
roopeYou surely want an integrated keyboard.23:36
chxof course23:36
tigertits like you could get four 770's for the price23:37
tigertroope: I still love the thumb keyboard :)23:37
chxif the N800 can't run PHP at a decent speed then it's a problem23:37
roopeI personally would get an oqo2 if I would want such a device.23:37
roopeYeah I watched you type with that thing today, it was fast. :)23:37
roopeWe should record a video of you using it.23:37
tigertI have a pretty decent small laptop in my use if I want a real computer23:37
tigertroope: perhaps yeah23:37
tigertwe can do that tomorrow23:37
gpdchx: i am looking in your contributions/sandbox/chx - is that the place for the patch?23:37
tigertroope: I irc quite a lot with it during commutes23:38
tigertlike today23:38
chxgpd: no.23:38
tigertchatted with four friends and caught up what was going on23:38
roopeThe OQO 02 measures 5.6 x 3.3 x 1.0in (142 x 84 x 25mm) and weighs less than 1lb (less than 450g).23:38
roopeThat's really nice.23:38
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glassi'd have oqo 2 in the jacket pocket if price wasnt an issue23:38
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lle2that oqo is ugly23:39
Milhouseglass: or weight :)23:40
glass450g isn't bad23:40
chxI looked at various Sony devices and actually the U71 or the UX180 would be nice.23:40
Milhousebit heavy for a jacket pocket, imho23:40
glassnot really if it's shaped like it is23:40
glassnot for me anyhow23:40
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chxalso it would be nice if I would not need to rob a bank...23:40
glasslike a can of coke, but in better form23:41
Milhousehalf a bag of sugar23:41
roopeWe have one UX180. It's horrible. :)23:41
roopeIt really is.23:41
Milhousehalf a kilo, you'd notice carrying that around all day - at least I would23:41
roopeIt's too thick and bulky, the software sucks, the keyboard is horrible etc.23:41
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chxroope: if you look at the page you linked, at the very bottom, there is a comparison to Sony UX. It says "1399-". Where can one find a new Sony UX 180 for 1400 bucks?23:42
glassmilhouse: i don't like too light jackets anyhow :p23:43
chxroope: ooooh on . I am blind.23:43
roopeoqo 02 is really nice, they fixed the problems of the 01. and the price is still reasonable.23:44
glasshmm 1gig23:45
glasswould be enough for working23:45
gpdchx: ok - thttpd installed and running -- connected to http://localhost23:45
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glasswith docking station.. bah now i want one23:45
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chxgpd: Hey! that links to my devel drupal :P23:46
gpdchx: the next step might be a bottleneck -- i need to port or find a port of php for armel23:47
chxgpd: to the rescue23:48
MDKhmm, wasn't openmoko wiling to announce something in january?23:48
roope  that oqo (stand) design is very nice, in fact.23:49
gpdchx: is php5 heavier than php4? memory/proc wise?23:49
chxgpd: PHP5 is so much faster than PHP4 that the issue is largely moot.23:51
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gpdok - i'm going with debian/testing - php5, php5-cgi, php5-common23:52
gpdhmm.. there are a lot of dependencies for those - maybe it is worth more googling for maemo + php23:53
gpdor even just going from vanilla php-5.2.0.tgz -23:54
chxthat might work...23:56
Veggenppl - how do you install on your N800 - practically - before the repositories are set up? (or are there repositories you should add already?)23:57
gpdVeggen: depends what you want to install - there are some repos - but not all in there yet23:58
chxgpd: this tells me you might even succeed23:58
Veggenor is your best bet to go to the new-style OS2006-catalog and just try the packages there?23:58
Veggen(with one-click-method)23:58

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