IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2007-01-13

Disconnectdirect sunlight on a bright day circa noon wasn't bad, yah, but ...00:00
* Disconnect might have a bum camera, but i may never know - i'm the only person i know with -any- tablets, much less a new one :)00:01
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Disconnectwell.. i know someone with a proper gateway convertable, but nobody with nokia tablets00:01
tzzok, gmediaserver works well with the N800.  I will try fuppes tonight I guess.00:02
tzzthe N800 doesn't seem to have the bug where entries after the 30th or so would be cut off.00:02
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guerbybug report:
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tzzin the media streamer, can the image change or is it fixed to that drawing of a walking man?00:05
lasala2kis flash video playback such as youtube going to be faster on the N800 soon?00:06
lasala2kI heard youtube still blows on N80000:06
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TakI blame adobe00:07
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tzzyoutube works OK for me, pretty fast and no skips with 3 videos I tried00:09
lasala2kok good to hear00:10
gpdis curl as good or better than wget - or are they different fish?  I have curl on the tab but not used it much before.  Considering using it to grab little chunks of wikipedia for offline browsing.00:12
Disconnectanyone get the media streamer to work with mythtv? no matter what I pick (video or music) i get 'object not found'00:13
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Disconnectafaik the mythtv upnp server works, or at least hte wiki page lists a bunch of working clients00:16
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gpdi keep finding repositories on ApplicationCatalog2006 that have binaries but no source debs -- is it likely that they just recompiled the debian src?00:19
Takargh, that reminds me - is there a way to upload source packages to garage extras yet?00:20
gpdit would be helpful to have a 'Source Download' link on the wiki page  at least00:20
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Guardiangood evening00:26
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Jaffakeesj: I've realised I don't even need to keep the local repository (not important for the workflow or how the user uses it, just keeps it need)00:29
Jaffabah, *neat*00:29
gpdI have this underlying fear that most 3rd party developers are going to 'boycot' recompiling their stuff for bora until Nokia gives them all a free N800 ;)00:30
shackanhow does one become root in scratchbox ?00:31
||cwnokia should setup a cluster for native compiling like hp did for the ipaqs00:32
myrenand they should cool it with Ln00:32
myrenour N800's run 700 mhz00:32
myrenspeed up compilation00:32
myreni guess native compling doesnt mean on the native hardware00:33
Takgpd: I wouldn't say boycott00:33
||cwgpd: anyone can download the sdk and test there app so long as it ins't too dependant on hardware00:33
gpdyeah - they can -- doesn't mean they have a burning incentive if they have to stick with mistral on their 77000:33
||cwmyren: well, the native platform anyway.  sometimes crosscompiling just doens't go well00:33
dragornit'd be more efficient to just run the cpu emulation on a big box00:35
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shackanin order to use bluetooth in the simulator, I need to run the hcid daemon, which in turn needs to be run as root to configure the bt interface, and it exports some things on the D-Bus system bus, anybody knows if it works or if I'm just wasting my time ?00:37
guerbyApplication ssh00:37
guerby    *00:37
guerby      Status: Works.00:37
guerby    *00:37
guerby      How to install: Add same repo as for X Termina, then activate red pill, update list and then choose ssh from the list00:37
guerbyeh eh :)00:37
Disconnect||cw: when compaq built the pool it was mostly because there were roughly-equivalent arm boxes out to be used. adding actual ipaqs was way later and was sorta just a way to retire or store dev units :)00:37
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Takto me, it's not that I don't have any incentive00:39
Takit's that the scratchbox env doesn't give me a real idea of how my apps run on the device00:39
gpdTak: i'm sure you'll get feedback pretty quickly - what are your apps?00:40
* pahartik seems to have idea about process threads but it is incompatible with reality00:40
Disconnectyah - if it had no gui, it would be ok. if it had a working/authentic gui, it would be ok. the fact that it has a half-working mushedup gui is what annoys me00:40
Takfceu, xmame, xmaeme, vba00:40
gpdTak: wow - very nice list :)00:41
dragornanyone have any idea what /usr/bin/time is, that build is looking for in scratchbox?00:41
Takwell - they're apps I've *ported*00:41
dragornsince 'time' is a bash builtin :P00:41
Takalthough fceu may as well be mine, since it's essentially abandoned00:42
Disconnectrandom side note for anyone talking with nokia.. home-home should go to the desktop. (instead of dropping the menu - if i wanted it to go away i'd hit escape....)00:42
gpdso it strikes me that for non-gui app the bottleneck is the cross-compilation step -- or rather setting up scratchbox and knowing what to do with it to cross-compile, and generate armel-debs.  But that the testing part is quicker as you don't have to be particularly skilled to do that bit.00:46
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dragornwhich scratchbox version are people using lately00:48
gpdii  scratchbox-core                            1.0.700:49
dragornthe compile system seems mightily broken in that version, or is it just me00:50
suihkulokkiscratchbox is not a emulator nor a simulator.. it's a crosscompilin env00:50
dragornsuihkulokki: Which contains qemu for cpu-transparency emulation.00:50
gpddragorn: what are you trying to compile?00:51
dragorngpd: scratchbox itself00:51
dragorngpd: Their new build script is very strange00:51
gpdoh.  i see -- i just used the debs :|00:51
suihkulokkidragorn: the build scripts work only in debian/sarge env00:51
dragorngpd: and tries to run stuff that doesn't exist, like '822-date'.  wtf is 822-date? :P00:51
dragornsuihkulokki: that's amazingly useless.00:52
dragornperhaps I ought to stop dealing with this tonight and go have dinner before I get ruder. :P00:52
gpd822-date - Print date and time in RFC822 format00:52
gpddragorn: perhaps you should install debian00:52
* gpd runs00:52
suihkulokkidragorn: install sbox from the tarballs00:53
suihkulokkidragorn: even if you would manage to rebuild it somewhere else, you would have to copy a shitload of debian etch tools to *inside* scratchbox to have a matching build env with the target00:54
gpdindeed -- 822-date is in dpkg-dev00:54
suihkulokkiif you really, really want to compile it, you should work on sbox2 =)00:55
gpdsuihkulokki: sbox2 = scratchbox version 2 ?00:56
koenscratchbox version nice00:56
gpdsvn only?  pre-alpha?00:56
* Disconnect found the 'answer' to the upnp problem btw. gotta set a proper ip in mythtv-setup for the backend. (although now its not showing up at all, go figure.)00:56
gpdsummary of why 'nicer' in 1 line?00:57
dragornsuihkulokki: I want to build a frigging app, not install a new distro just to compile a binary.  THIS would be a major problem for developers, for example.00:58
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Guardiangood night01:00
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suihkulokkigpd: sbox2 takes tens of KB while sbox < 1.x takes hundreds of megabytes =)01:00
gpddragorn: what will you be compiling once you get scratchbox running?01:01
dragorngpd: I was going to be rebuilding the kismet packages to match the release I'm rolling out tonight or tomorrow morning.01:01
gpdif you just 'need it done' i have a working scratchbox atm01:02
* dragorn shrugs01:02
trenkasuihkulokki: anyway, I'm afraid now about our idea about modularized initfs01:02
dragornI'm sure someone will when I release the finals01:02
dragornat the moment i'm cranky so I'm going out01:03
Disconnectgmediaserver works with media streamer :)01:03
gpddragorn: k - have fun01:03
dragorngpd: I'm significantly irked that sb installed very nicely the last time I dealt with it and is very much the opposite at the moment01:03
dragorngpd: Thats about it.01:03
gpdDisconnect: ya -- works a treat - have you tried anything other than mp3?01:04
MDKdaniels: ping01:04
Disconnectgpd: serving the samba'd itunes library, its not liking the itunes rips but mp3s are working01:04
Disconnecti'll try video once the mythtv box gets its upnp server back up01:04
gpdcan I install extra virtual packages for scratchbox? or is what you get - what you get?01:06
Disconnectfakeroot apt-get  inside scratchbox01:06
gpdok - tried that - so must be not available :(01:07
MDKhmm, does the vs difference comes from arm vs armel?01:07
MDKi mean, gnueabi01:07
Disconnectgpd: scratch that, it looks like its playing one of them now. (skipping around doesn't work tho)01:09
gpd*** glibc detected *** free(): invalid next size (normal): 0x00011418 *** <-- iproute failing01:17
gpdmake[1]: Leaving directory `/home/gpd/iproute/iproute-20041019/tc'01:17
gpdno idea what tc is - maybe i can build without01:18
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lindi-tc is handy for traffic shaping01:19
gpddo you think it is required for vpnc?01:19
lindi-i don't know what "vpnc" is :/01:20
gpdi am building iproute for vpnc --- vpn for cisco 300001:20
lindi-is that proprietary? then i don't want to know :)01:20
lindi-well, most likely you don't need tc01:21
gpdi could wait for them to port to bora -- or i could just try the mistral version(!)01:22
lindi-i use openvpn everywhere currently01:22
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gpddon't suppose that would work here - :?01:23
lindi-o dpm01:23
lindi-whoops :), mean't to type "i don't know" but keyboard was misplaced01:23
gpdactually -- it might --
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gpdthey mention vpnlinux-4701:25
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* gpd completes compilation of openvpn for armel :)01:39
Disconnectgpd: it was easy for arm, should be easy for armel01:41
gpd openvpn depends on maemo; however:01:41
gpdi am just updateing the mistral to bora -- but obviously something wrong01:42
gpd Architecture: armel01:42
gpd Depends: maemo01:42
gpdDisconnect: any pointers on that one?01:43
Disconnectdrop the dependency01:44
Disconnectiirc at one point maemo was the 'default' environment dependency01:44
gpd'course -- sorry - didn't do -r in grep01:46
gpdmaybe there should be a virtual package for bora to get around that -- transitional01:47
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gpdSetting up openvpn (2.0-1maemo2) ...  >:)01:48
gpdNokia-N800-51:~# openvpn --version01:48
gpdOpenVPN 2.0 arm-unknown-linux-gnueabi [SSL] [EPOLL] built on Jan 12 200701:48
Jaffagpd: it dates back to OS 2005: I don't think mistral had a virtual package either. It helps ensure OS 2005 packages weren't accidentally installed on OS 2006.01:48
Jaffagpd: excellent!01:49
gpdah - ok01:49
Jaffagpd: might be interesting to see if we can get it in mud-builder (did you have to patch anything?)01:49
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gpdno - just that dependency01:49
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gpd <-- from there01:49
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gpdnot sure what they did01:50
JaffaAh, I see.01:50
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maihemI just got my n800... but wifi connections get no default route even when I set static ip. running /sbin/route -n from xterm segfaults. Anybody seen this?01:51
JaffaNot got an N800, but not heard of it, no.01:51
maihemIs there a command to connect to a wifi connection via the commandline so I can see any error messages?01:54
JaffaNot easily. There's been a recent thread on one of the mailing lists about diagnosing connection problems, that might have some more info in.01:55
maihemthanks, I'll look for it01:55
|tbb|could u go into the router menu01:55
danielsMDK: pong01:57
maihemrouter menu?01:57
MDKdaniels: vs. is the legacy vs eabi?01:59
trenkaMDK: yes02:00
MDKis there anything "special" needed to get eabi, except from target = -gnu-eabi?02:01
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MDKI build a toolchain with -gnu-eabi, but somehow it produces legacy binaries02:01
MDKarm-none-linux-gnueabi that is02:02
MDKmaybe my components are too old02:02
trenkanothing very special, but official libc port is quite poor02:03
trenkaMDK: do you read debian-arm? Lennert announced a debian port today02:05
trenkaor "the debian port"02:06
trenkasorry for my French02:06
c0ffeei think it existed for quite some time, or?02:06
trenkano, there where no real port02:07
trenkathere were02:07
c0ffeenot real as in official02:07
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Jaffare c0ffee02:07
c0ffeejaffa :)02:08
c0ffeeany news?02:08
Jaffanot to me :-/02:08
trenkait was like we have in n800, something is eabi, something is oabi ...02:08
c0ffeeto me neither02:08
trenkaand nobody runs it, except nokia02:08
gpdtalking of connection problems - is there a quick way to see your current IP address? i'm not seeing it in control panel02:08
c0ffeein the connection damager02:09
MDKtrenka: I build a D compiler, works cool, got a devkit for sbox02:09
MDKtrenka: now I just want to make it produce eabi codew02:09
|tbb|type ifconfig wlan002:09
trenkaMDK: you are cool02:09
Jaffac0ffee: however mud-builder's now doing cool stuff with temporary local Subversion repos for patch management.02:10
trenkaI'll drink some beer for it02:10
MDKI based my stuff on crosstool, but it's a bit old02:10
trenkasorry, not beer, but "finnish beer"02:10
|tbb|will kismet run with the n800 fine?02:10
trenkaMDK: crosstool? is a set of useless scripts?02:11
MDKtrenka: indeed02:11
MDKunfortunately, that's the first thing I found02:11
shackanMDK, awesome02:11
gpdc0ffee: thanks - had forgotten about CManager -- |tbb| i thought need root to do ifconfig - maybe i need /sbin/ifconfig02:12
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c0ffeeyeah, you don't need root for invoking ifconfig02:12
c0ffeejust for changing stuff02:12
gpdeither way i have 169.254.wasteof.time :(02:12
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trenkaMDK: try do make it yourself, it helps :) If you have difficultes (sorry for the spelling), I have a couple of simple scripts to build a  cross toolchain02:13
|tbb|you dont have to be root iirc02:13
MDKtrenka: I'm doing it kinda "myself"... i wrote my own set of scripts based on crosstool02:13
trenkaMDK: you are cool02:13
MDKsince I wanted to have reproducable results02:13
trenkaMDK: you are my hero02:14
MDKbut crosstool is kinda messy02:14
shackan./me can't resist the dumb question, what about bootstrapping the gdc from scratchbox ?02:14
MDKshackan: nope, not possible02:14
maihem|tbb|: ifconfig wlan0 seemed fine, but I just noticed the netmask is wrong... 255.255.2550 missing a dot. I'll just check my settings02:14
MDKshackan: btw, why would you want to do this?02:15
maihemdot is present in advanced settings dialog02:15
maihem|tbb|: what is kismet?02:15
* gpd wonders why something called "Free Public WiFi" would give 169.254. address02:15
MDKshackan: actually, it should be a part of the full toolchain, just like g++02:15
trenkadoes anybody have Pink Floyd "the Wall" video?02:15
* Jaffa has seen an AP with exactly that behaviour too.02:15
Jaffatrenka: YouTube?02:16
c0ffeegpd, that's the 'no reply from dhcp ip' address02:16
trenkaJaffa: a CD on youtube? :)02:16
|tbb|a passive wireless scanner02:16
gpdc0ffee: aye - so i need kismet or something to work out if i can static it?02:16
maihemgpd, its the link-local address, a zeroconf one. I've seen devices named "Free Public Wifi". Check that you are not connecting to somebodies laptop.02:16
maihem|tbb|: what do you think about the missing dot in the netmask?02:17
c0ffeegpd, tcpdump maybe02:17
gpdtrenka: get The Wizard of OZ to the tune of The Dark Side of the Moon -- on google video ;)02:17
MDKJaffa: does your nick has something to do with those candies?02:18
maihem|tbb|: nevermnd, going fullscreen and running ifconfig again shows the netmask correctly02:18
JaffaMDK: Nope, that's a new one. What candies?02:18
|tbb|dont  understand that, make following ifconfig wlan0 down after then set it again up with ifconfig wlan0 up02:19
|tbb|what came if u type route02:19
MDKJaffa: ah, there are those choclate candies in finland...02:19
MDKactually, I'm eating them right now02:19
|tbb|r u  r00t02:19
maihemno, brand new device, I've deleted the free song, foreign user guides, configured my mobile phone and wifi, then installed xterm via usbdisk. that's all02:20
maihemI can't ifconfig down and up02:21
gpdmaihem: when deleting the guides did you find a way to select multiple files?02:21
* gpd holds and drags--- doh02:22
maihemdrag starting at a file that isn't selected02:22
* gpd wonders why US guide is 1MB bigger than GB ... :)02:23
Disconnectdisclaimers and regulatory info? (prolly not actually since GB is worse wrt radios) .. might be english/spanish vers (or eng/sp/french if its the canadian version too)02:25
Jaffakeesj: if you're awake, mud-builder svn now has local patch management:
JaffaDoh, wrong URL.02:26
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trenkaJaffa: anyway thank you very much02:29
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trenkaI had a cd, But I do not remember who's taken it temporary a couple of years ago :)02:32
danielsMDK: we have jaffas in australia as well -- they're great02:33
trenkadaniels: you are in Australia already ?02:33
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danielstrenka: i wish.  i'm in a hotel next to heathrow because ba are criminally incompetent.02:33
danielsa mere 24h delay ...02:33
trenkaLondon, Mery fucking Poppins :)02:34
gpdtuppence a bag me old mucka02:34
danielsi don't so much mind london, as my plane being delayed for four hours, and my luggage _still_ being in helsinki, because a) ba didn't plan for a full flight, and b) heathrow security are bastards.02:35
MDKdaniels: check if they're "made in poland" (as the finnish ones) ;)02:35
trenkaMDK: you do not like Polish?02:35
MDKtrenka: I'm polish02:36
trenkaI guess :)02:36
daniels(they found fifteen people to move to another flight to get it at the right weight, but heathrow security didn't want bags coming in without their owners, so instead they chucked _all_ the bags off, and we got there a mere four hours late ...)02:37
trenkaMDK: I'm Byelorussian, JFY02:37
MDKdaniels: heh02:38
* gpd is reminded of the 1st person shooter MDK02:38
trenkadaniels: I'll say you all I think about it when you back :)02:39
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danielstrenka: heh02:41
CraHani installed minimo and removed it again via the application manager, but the amount shown next to installed applications stays the same02:50
CraHanas if the space isn't freed up again02:51
CraHananything special you have to to reclaim those 12MB?02:52
gpdCraHan: do you have xterm available?02:52
gpddpkg -l |grep minimo # to see if it is still installed?02:53
CraHantalking to you via irssi ;)02:53
CraHanok hang on02:53
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CraHanshows 1 line02:55
CraHanrc minimo and a version nr02:56
JaffaDamn. I think I've hit a libfakeroot limitation: "libfakeroot: connect: Cannot assign requested address" (when building Debian's tcl8.4 deb)02:56
gpddpkg --purge minimo # would remove the rc02:56
CraHannot that easy typing on the n770 in a terminal ;)02:56
gpdbut unlikely to be 12Mb ?02:56
CraHanok lemme try that02:56
gpdCraHan: could always ssh into the box -- :)02:57
CraHanas root right?02:57
CraHantrue ;)02:57
gpdfraid so -- which might be tricky unless you are dev02:57
gpdso ssh root@yourbox is what i do02:57
CraHani enabled sudo02:57
CraHanso sudo su works02:57
gpdhmm... how do you do that?02:58
CraHangreat stuff worked02:58
gpdsorry user user is not allowed to execute '/bin/su' as root ---02:59
CraHanwell first ssh'd into localhost as root02:59
CraHanthen set a pass for user02:59
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CraHanand added a line to /etc/sudors02:59
CraHanto allow the user to execute su using sudo03:00
gpdi see -- far too simple -- i was under the impression that it was all very tricky03:00
gpdpeople mentioning sudo gainroot and dev images and the like03:00
CraHani used plaun echo '' >> ...03:00
gpdplain :)03:00
gpdgot it03:00
CraHanthere should be a page about it on the wiki03:01
gpdyou expect me to read something?  bah03:01
CraHanpoint taken03:01
gpdstagger blindly around-- that is my preferred method!03:01
CraHananyway bedtime now03:02
CraHanthx for the help03:02
* gpd continues to scan microarrays --- :( bye03:02
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gpdanyone use ampache / jinzora / phpMp - this mpd stuff looks just what i need at home for audio trickery03:24
myrenugg mpd03:41
myreni use it for my wifi audio network03:41
myrenits a piece of shit03:41
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gpdhow so?03:42
myreni despise how its a daemon program that has to have the entire music db mapped out03:42
myreni have all sorts of different sources i want to use and alternate between and mpd just sucks ass if you have anything except a single hard drive with all your music03:42
gpdbut as and end user - does it perform as expected?03:43
myrenyes it works just fine03:43
* gpd has a single hard drive with all his music :)03:43
myreni just really really wish mpd clients could stream music to the mpd server03:43
gpdwhich client do you use?03:43
gpdjinzora and ampache both looks quite well maintained at least03:44
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* Jaffa beds.03:47
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* gpd successfully runs unison on N80004:16
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* gpd successfully runs wget on N800 -- these mistral packages with no GUI seem ok :)04:26
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korc_hello everybody, somebody  could help me with a problem? , I installed scratchbox for debian, and sdk of nokia, but appears to me the following message: The following packages have unmet dependencies: maemo-explicit: Depends: libosso-abook-dev but it is not going to be installed04:50
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korc_I try to install libosso-abook-dev and obtain the following message, libosso-abook-dev: Depends: pkg-config (>= 0.14.0) but it is not installable? is strange, because my version is compatilble: pkg-config --version = 0.15.005:36
gpdkorc_: are you having problems installing the scratchbox debs - or after that?05:37
korc_gpd, after ..., I followed the following instructions:
korc_gpd, you have some idea how to fix it? it is is what I have found
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gpdkorc_: not sure -- :/06:13
gpdwhat does this give you:06:13
gpddpkg -l |grep -c scratchbox06:13
korc_gpd, dpkg -l |grep -c scratchbox = 006:14
gpdoutside of scratchbox?06:14
korc_into of scratchbox06:15
gpdno -- try outside -- should give you 906:15
korc_outside = 1506:15
gpdscratchbox-devkit-debian - do you have that one?06:15
gpdwhat is your desktop distro - sarge?06:16
korc_i'm using debian sid06:16
korc_yes, i do have scratchbox-devkit-debian installed, version = 1.0.606:17
gpdi am trying this; [sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > fakeroot apt-cache search libosso-abook-dev06:17
gpd[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > fakeroot apt-get install libosso-abook-dev06:17
gpdSetting up libosso-abook-dev (1.20061207) ...06:18
gpdseems to work for me...06:18
gpdnot sure what you have done there :(06:18
korc_libosso-abook-dev: Depends: pkg-config (>= 0.14.0) but it is not installable06:18
korc_and others06:18
gpdit might just be because you are running sid!?06:18
gpdbut that isn't very good answer :(06:19
gpd[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > apt-cache show pkg-config06:19
gpdVersion: 0.15.0+virtual106:20
gpdDescription: pkg-config from Scratchbox06:20
korc_its posible...06:20
korc_but, its command, not show an out06:21
gpdgpd@beasty:~$ dpkg -S pkg-config06:21
gpdscratchbox-core: /scratchbox/tools/bin/pkg-config06:21
gpdhow did you add it? - using deb ./06:22
gpdnot sure where you got 15 packages from!?06:22
gpdwait -- all the toolchains06:23
korc_yes i added this repository06:24
gpd[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > apt-cache show libosso-abook-dev06:24
gpd- don't know dude :( -- sorry06:25
korc_Package: libosso-abook-dev06:25
korc_Source: osso-addressbook06:25
korc_Version: 1.2006120706:25
korc_Priority: optional06:25
gpds[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > which pkg-config06:26
korc_it's exist: scratchbox-core: /scratchbox/tools/bin/pkg-config06:26
korc_but whish pkg-config = bash: wish: command not found06:26
gpdwish? which? -- you mean which... ?06:27
korc_ups... wish...06:27
korc_excuse me,06:27
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gpd[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~] > which pkg-config06:28
korc_ /scratchbox/tools/bin/pkg-config06:28
korc_why dpkg -S pkg-config, does not find the file06:30
korc_gpd, I will try to install everything again, later tell you, thanks for your help...06:36
s-ndh-csomeone still awake?06:37
s-ndh-csomething went wrong during apt-get update and now the packagemanager application just displays a tooltip saying operation failed06:39
s-ndh-cand i cant edit the repositorys anymore06:41
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gpdwow -- i can play bbc radio4 comedy streams in media player! how cool is that07:29
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s-ndh-cdamn i screwed the packagemanager07:34
s-ndh-ci think i have to reflash07:34
gpds-ndh-c: no ssh ?07:34
gpds-ndh-c: did you disable all your extra repositories?07:35
s-ndh-cgpd: no i cant07:35
s-ndh-cit allways displays operation failed07:35
gpdon starting application manager?> -- ouch07:35
s-ndh-conly thing that works is list installed applications07:35
s-ndh-call other options: operation failed07:36
gpdand you don't have ssh installed - so you are probably out of luck07:36
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cesmanhello heloo07:37
* cesman has a n800 in his hot little hands07:38
gpdnice nice07:38
cesmanyes, playing w/ it now07:39
s-ndh-cthe ui looks much nicer07:39
s-ndh-cbut did only see screenshots yet07:39
cesmanhowdy, I cannot seem to find instructions for install canola07:39
cesmananyone got a link?07:39
s-ndh-cdidnt get my hand on any of these yet07:39
s-ndh-cand i hope reflashing wont fry my 77007:40
s-ndh-cis there somehack to implement somekind of lowlevel backup flashing method?07:40
s-ndh-cif something goes wrong and doesnt accept the new image via usb anymore07:41
cesmanwill media streamer playback mpeg2?07:41
cesmanpage is certainly taking it's tie loading07:45
cesmanmust know how much I want to read it ;)07:45
gpdhmm -- i just got an internal server error -- must be a problem07:46
gpdwas fine a minute ago07:46
cesmanjust came up07:46
gpd <- canola only has mistral -- probably won't work07:47
* gpd attempts to get mpd working07:47
Milhousecanola/n800 details =>
s-ndh-cgod thx it rebooted normaly07:48
s-ndh-ci fried my zaurus once that was bretty bad, since then iam allways afraid of firmware upgrades07:49
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Milhousemaemo bugzilla running like a dog for anyone else?08:15
gpdmpd with phpmp is genius! love it08:20
gpdglurp might be worth a try - but the phpmp is fine for now08:21
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s-ndh-cwhere am i supposed to download dropbear?08:32
s-ndh-cthe download url mentioned in the wiki is not availible08:32
Milhousetry openssh08:35
Milhouseapt-get install ssh08:35
* gpd contemplates grabbing large chunks of google maps for local area as png for offline browsing of streets08:48
* gpd wonders if there is a mashup or similar for this purpose08:49
gpdhmm clearly contra to terms of service :(08:52
s-ndh-cMilhouse: thx that worked09:03
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Disconnectgpd: maemo mapper has a buddy-app for windows to do that, or maemo mapper itself can09:18
MilhouseAnyone able to check ? it's really slow here, not sure if it's my connection or's end09:18
gpdDisconnect: sweet, Milhouse: front page is fine here atm - was crap y'day09:19
Milhousek must be my end :(09:20
Milhousethanks disconnet09:20
Disconnectdefault grab is the current map view09:20
Milhouseer, gpd09:20
gpdanyone tested maemo mapper with bora? no sign of it on 2k7tested09:22
Disconnectgpd: i got a ver emailed to me that worked.09:24
Milhousehave a look here - haven't followed it myself:
Disconnectpass me an email and i'll send it along before i go to bed09:24
gpdDisconnect: in pm09:25
gpdmany thanks09:25
* Disconnect tested it (with the rocking trek m3 that works indoors :) ..) and it lit right up, worked fine. 09:25
Disconnectexcept for using POI .. got a bunch of marks (in csv and/or gpx) but i can't figure out how to get them imported09:26
Disconnectbut i'll look at that tomorrow .. its 2;30 now, going to bed09:26
Milhousegnuite hasn't got a N800, check post #23 in the above thread link09:26
gpdinstalled... testing...09:26
Disconnecteven used the maps i had on the memory card from the 77009:28
gpdwell i get a mapper settings menu09:28
gpdbut click cancel and it quits09:29
Disconnectso click ok instead09:29
gpdthis may be normal behaviour with no bt gps...09:29
Disconnectno, with no bt gps it says "no mac entered, gps disabled"09:29
gpdgps disabled09:29
Disconnectoff now, have a good one :)09:29
* cesman installs mplayer09:30
gpdcheers -- see ya09:30
gpdi think i've had enough too -- bye all09:30
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gpd[map repository setup -- map loaded... sweet... ]09:34
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s-ndh-cshould i change the distribution thing in repository list? i flashed the second release of 2006 internettable os09:48
s-ndh-cwouldn that now be sciroco isntead of mistral?09:49
Milhousescirocco, yes09:52
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keesjJaffa, are you there?09:59
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Jaffakeesj: yeah, but just popping in briefly with Jaffa Junior before breakfast10:09
keesjI am trying mud , where do I need to put the mud config?10:09
JaffaYou don't need one if you keep the same structure, otherwise at the moment I think it just looks in the current directory10:10
JaffaI need to hide the warning message if it wasn't specified.10:11
Jaffakeesj: at the moment there's a problem with deep recursion of Debian-based dependencies, however tarball ones seem to be working fine (although there's no way of specifying build dependencies for them yet)10:12
keesjI have some more notes but I would at least like to be able to buildl netcat or siiliar10:12
Jaffakeesj: there's a netcat package from upstream already there, I'd suggest building that first `mud build netcat' should Just Work, and then tweaking it for something similar.10:13
keesj[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~/tmp/mud-builder/trunk] > ./mud build netcat10:13
keesjBuild dir not set.10:13
keesj at /home/keesj/tmp/mud-builder/trunk/mud line 14810:13
JaffaOK, remove your config10:14
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Jaffakeesj: alternatively add 'BUILD_DIR = ....' in your config file.10:15
keesjI have no hurry , take it easy10:15
* Jaffa is being called for food now, som BBL10:15
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Guardianmorning all10:57
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Jaffakeesj: I've just done some basic getting started documentation, but can't finish the `Creating a package' quick start at the moment, I'm afraid.11:31
keesjwhere can I find this doc?11:32
keesjalso I already have a few note , shall I mail them to you11:33
keesjor do you prefer the mailing list or something else?11:33
keesjdid you ever run gentoo?11:33
Jaffakeesj: oh yeah ;-)
JaffaI think there's a mailing list through garage.11:36
Jaffakeesj: no, but I've heard of emerge11:37
keesjthere are some tricks that can also be used for mud11:37
Jaffakeesj: hang on, I'll create a mailing list11:37
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Jaffakeesj: ah, damn - it says it'll take 6-24 hours to activate.11:38
Jaffakeesj: - I'm helping my Dad do some DIY this morning/early afternoon so I won't have a chance to look over anything before later today anyway. So I'd suggest sitting on your notes until the mailing list's created.11:39
* Jaffa appreciates your early adopter status, though!11:39
keesjperl will be hard for me , my perl experience really dates from the pre mod_perl ages. So it hope I will be a good "end user"11:41
* Jaffa can see himself moving it from Perl to, say, Python at some point anyway to improve my Python skills.11:41
keesjI would also like to learn python and  it's the platform choice of maemo11:42
keesjI have fallen in love with ruby but I understand not everybody can share my love11:43
keesjso python will do11:43
JaffaI did get "Programming Ruby: A Pragmatic Programmer's Guide" for Christmas to force me to learn it ;-)11:43
JaffaBut there's no Ruby in Scratchbox and I want it to run with minimum dependencies.11:43
keesjI created a package for ruby11:44
keesjonce mud is self hosting there will be no problem11:44
keesjmud build mud11:44
Jaffatrue :)11:44
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JaffaRight. AFK.11:45
partkeesj: the device doesn't have python, and now the sdk doesn't have python either, I wouldn't say that it's the maemo scripting language, at least not yet11:45
keesjpart are you talking about 3.0?11:46
part2.x sdk does include python11:47
keesjpart, but are you trying to say that ruby might  be the plaftorm choice?11:48
keesjI bet my money on mono11:48
partkeesj: no, I'm not saying that it would be ruby11:49
partkeesj: and I'm hoping it won't be mono11:49
keesjso your saying that you want/expect  python to be in 3.011:50
partuh, mine saying?11:50
partwhat I'm saying is that python is not in 3.011:51
keesjI sometimes have trouble understanding others.11:51
partif python is included in the device, then it makes sense to have it in the sdk too11:54
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keesjand is lua in 3.0?11:56
tkosee list of packages:
parttko: thanks :)12:05
partkeesj: if it's not in the device, it's usually not in 3.0 either12:06
jose__hi all, beginner question... I just installed the 3.0 sdk, and when i start the maemo GUI in the X window, the only programs that i can see are contacts, control panel and maemopad. How can i get other prpgrams in the GUI?12:06
partjose__: it's not an emulator for the system, and it doesn't include all the device software12:08
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jose__thanks part, so is it possible to install some of the device sw using apt-get or they wouldn work?12:09
c0ffeejose__, when you install another program to your scratchbox, it will appear in the menu at the right place and you can execute it12:09
c0ffeejose__, for some programs the sources and binaries are available, but by far not all12:09
partjose__: as I said, it's not meant for emulating the device. Most of what you will be able to install from the repositories is already there12:10
jose__ok, thanks12:11
keesjpart, I don't have the device12:13
partkeesj: oh, I thought you would've had it12:13
keesjI would not be asking those questions If I had12:13
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JussiPStrange. The feed reader on my 770 refuses to start.12:56
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sbaturziopaci: Ciao! ;-)13:00
* sbaturzio is away: back soon...reboot....13:05
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seebsI have a dumb question about scratchbox.  When I set it up, it mounted a number of things in /scratchbox/users/seebs.  These didn't survive a reboot of the host.  How do I get them back?13:32
seebsOh!  Doh.13:32
seebssbox_mount_all looks very promising.13:32
c0ffee/scratchbox/sbox_ctl start13:33
c0ffeeas root13:33
keesjon my system it's a init.d script /etc/init.d/scratchbox start as root13:33
seebsHmm.  I don't have the init.d script, although I suppose I could add it.13:34
keesjif you start it by hand don't forger to stop it again , on my system not stopping sb make the system fail to shutdown properly because the mounted file system still are in use13:34
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compukidI'm using a nokia770 (2.1 release) and the website crashes opera... Is this reproducable?13:37
sbaturzioHelp! Paci's n800 doesn't turn on there a way to perform an hard reset?13:40
compukidhave you tried removing the battery?13:40
seebsHmm.  I don't know of one, but "remove battery" seems to do for most things.13:40
paciyeah, I tried, several times, without luck13:41
paciit keeps reboot, and rebooting13:41
compukidseems like the same issue as with the 77013:41
pacicompukid: and the solution was ... ?13:42
compukidwith the 770 you can flash it again and it will start working again13:42
paciI also tried to flash it again, several times, but the problem do not disappear13:43
seebsSounds like failed hardware.13:43
seebsDo you have SD cards in it?  If so, have you removed them?13:43
paciyes, I tried to flash it with the SD in, and out too13:43
seebsI just figured maybe the SD card had some data that was triggering a bug.13:44
seebsHave you tried alternative images, like the SDK rootfs?13:44
paciseebs: no, however, I'm just downloading it too to give a try13:44
tkorebooting should fix most problems, reflashing the whole image should fix all but hardware problems.. if after reflashing, with charged battery and no sd-cards installed, it's still in reboot loop you should contact nokia13:46
compukidkeesj, tnx13:47
tkoend users should never ever need to do more than remove the battery (even that is bad) - for hackers there's the flasher13:47
keesjI once had to remove the battery to fix a problem with the sd card being mounted read-only13:48
compukidkeesj, the website is working now (after rebooting the device to freeup some memory)13:51
* sbaturzio is away: Lunch time...13:56
seebsSo, I did a trivial gstreamer app, with no hints of any osso or dbus code, and it Just Worked.  I assume I shouldn't count on that...13:59
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s-ndh-cdamn i broke something, dpkg reports syntax error in /var/li/dpkg/status14:08
pahartikcompukid: at least here document at "http//" did not break Opera on Maemo 2.114:10
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seebsBlar!  The debian package system is beautiful, but it sure is a lot of work for the trivial case of "please put these six files on the system".14:12
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tkogah, this is just stupid. how the hell could I possibly have misplaced a bike tire repair kit or three :-?14:33
* sbaturzio is back (gone 00:36:49)14:33
_matthias_how good is my chance to get a fluxbox running on my nokia 77014:35
_matthias_anyone thought of this14:35
suihkulokki_matthias_: it's trivial, unless you want to use the included propiertary applications in fluxbox14:36
_matthias_ suihkulokki i would not really need them14:37
tko_matthias_, should be a no-brainer to get it running (see /etc/osso-af-init/matchbox-window-manager* IIRC) but the system will probably behave strangely14:37
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_matthias_iÂd just lie to use an sdk image and setup a real oss enviornment14:37
_matthias_lets say fluxbox with minimo browser ssh xterm and sylpheed perhaps14:38
_matthias_tko: what i am worring most is getting a decent input alternative14:39
_matthias_i dont want to carry ma su-8w all the time14:39
suihkulokki_matthias_: matchbox-keyboard14:40
_matthias_and what i worry about to is the wifi / bt hardware14:40
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suihkulokki_matthias_: wifi/bt drivers are on initfs14:40
_matthias_i-m not really sure if i can enable wifi just as on every other linux machine with iwutils or wpa-supplicant14:40
suihkulokkiiwtools yes, wpa-supplicant not sure14:42
_matthias_jah i mean if iwtools are available wpa-supplicant is also an option14:42
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koosMy gdb in sb107 w/ bora gives 'Don't know how to run.  Try "help target".'. What is wrong?14:44
koos(its the auto generated SDK_X86 target in sb)14:44
tkokoos, please file a bug14:44
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_matthias_and i am still searching for a dt-714:45
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_matthias_does a desk stand come with the 800 .. perhaps this is argument enough for my girl to allow me to by a new device ;-)14:45
seebsIt has a built-in one.14:45
koostko: I could do that but first want to check if this is seen before (and solved) so I can get on w/ my work14:45
tkokoos, you could try apt-get install gdb and then SBOX_REDIRECT_IGNORE=/usr/bin/gdb /usr/bin/gdb -- if my guess about someone screwing up the gdb is correct14:46
seebsThere's a flippy thing on the bottom.14:46
_matthias_seebs: damn14:46
seebsI like it way better than the 770.14:46
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seebsIs there any way to extract the "removable" card from an N800 that doesn't involve pliers?14:47
seebsI don't think I've ever seen anyone with small enough fingers to extract it by hand.14:47
Milhouseseebs: internal or external?14:48
Milhousehave you got a mini card stuck in your external slot?14:48
seebsThe "external" one -- the one that's under the flap under the stand, not the one by the battery.14:48
seebsNo, it's full size.14:48
koostko: odd, the apt-get indeed installed something (that doesn't look so standard debian to me :)14:48
Milhouseit should have a ridge at the top - use your fingernail to pop it out14:48
seebsI can remove the card with pliers, quite easily, but there's under 1mm of card extending past the case.14:48
seebsAh-HAH!  It does.  It was so close in that I couldn't see that.  Thanks!14:49
Milhousenp :)14:49
koosHmm, I now get a 'Cannot exec /bin/sh: No such file or directory.' error. 'ln -s /scratchbox/tools/bin/sh /bin/sh' fixes this, but is my installation screwed?14:51
seebsFirst thing I'd do is make sure you've got all the filesystems mounted.14:53
seebsIt sounds like there's a missing loopback mount or something.14:53
koosseebs:indeed, /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core doesn't do that ..14:54
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guerbycould some brave soul try instructions in the second comment? WARNING: you'll have to remove the battery15:00
seebsSure, why not!15:03
seebsI am actually at a point where I am very shortly going to have to reflash anyway to make sure that my instructions for an article are correct.15:03
guerbyseebs, if you see the same thing as me, please could you add a confirmation comment as well? thanks15:03
suihkulokkikoos: what gives the "cannot exec /bin/sh" ?15:04
koenmount -o user?15:04
seebsBTW, the instructions have at least one error; it's "Soft poweroff", not "soft power off".15:05
koossuihkulokki: gdb, but it seems my mounts are not executed15:05
guerbyseebs, mention that as well :)15:05
koosstrangely I do recall unmount problems with restarting my PC the other day (fs busy errors)15:06
seebsI don't get any kind of menu when I press or hold down the button.15:06
guerbyseebs, you should have the normal "device mode" menu with "lock screen..." ?15:06
seebsOh!  There it is.15:06
guerbyseebs, it's a bit slow after reboot15:07
seebsHmm.  Point 4, with screen off, hold button a long time... How long?15:08
seebsIt comes back up within a second or so for me.15:08
guerbyseebs, yes about a second (a short press will do nothing)15:08
koosbtw, I always use 'sb-menu' to switch targets, maybe that's not good enough ..15:09
seebsHmm.  I don't get the "now press dpad" thing.  It just acts normal.15:09
seebsAnd I can repeat it pretty often, cycling through soft power off and bringing it back up.15:09
guerbyseebs, funny ... do you have a daily alarm set ?15:10
seebsI don't seem to ever get the "now press..." stuff at all.15:10
seebsAnd no, no alarms.15:10
guerbyseebs, if you press on/off you should have the small box on the top right no?15:10
guerbyseebs, in light menu / display settings do you have "lock screen and keys" set?15:11
seebsOh!  I don't, no.15:11
guerbys/set/option set/15:11
guerbyseebs, forgot to add that (it's not set by default)15:11
guerbyseebs, indeed with the new soft power off menu, it's not that useful15:11
guerbyto have this one set15:11
guerby(simple workaround for me)15:12
seebsOkay, now I can confirm it.15:12
seebsYuppers!  My N800 is broken.15:12
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guerbyseebs, I found no way to get the battery out without using a tool15:13
guerbyseebs, aie aie15:13
tkoguerby, umm, open cover, tap the backside of the device against your palm -> battery falls into your palm. worksforme every time15:14
guerbytko, thanks!15:14
tko...then again, I've had practice :)15:14
seebstko, didn't work for me, and I even thought of it!  Maybe I didn't tap hard enough.15:14
seebsBlar.  I have no bugzilla login.15:15
tkoI just try to get the outermost edge to fall out, not the connector side15:15
seebsThat was what I tried, but I didn't do it very well.  I'm lame!15:16
tkolike I said, I've had practice since the first 770 prototypes, so yeah.. =)15:16
seebsI'm loving the N800.  I sorta wish it had something to cover the screen, but it's otherwise amazing.15:17
seebsThe 770 was neat, but it never quite made it past "well, I guess I can keep some reference materials on it" for me.15:17
seebsThe extra memory makes ALL the difference.15:17
guerbyseebs, I've added a comment for the "lock screen option". If you leave it unset and put the soft power off option at the top, you have a full N770 cover effect15:17
seebsBlar.  The one downside of greylisting; takes forever to get registration email.15:18
guerbyseebs, and processor, and my guess is that the touchscreen is more sensitive: I can use the thumbkb and sketch feels much more accurate on N800 than on N77015:18
seebsHuh, haven't tried the thumbkb.15:18
seebsProcessor helps some, but I never minded the processor on the 770.15:18
guerbyI couldn't use efficiently the thumkb on the N77015:18
guerbyeven with sensitivity maxed15:18
seebsI'm developing a trivial webcam for the N800, I have developerWorks buying articles about it.15:18
guerbyseebs, what's the chipset for the webcam?15:19
seebsNo clue.15:19
seebsIt Just Works with gstreamer/video4linux.15:19
seebsI actually have that part working.  Now I just need to wrestle with the installer to make it so you can launch the app from an icon and such.15:19
seebsOh, and think of a cheap way to implement "upload these bits to a web server".15:19
tkoseebs, a simple 'save the image to jpeg' would be nice too :)15:20
seebsI have that.15:20
seebsThe problem is that "save to jpeg on local flash" strikes me as a very bad use of the theoretically finite limit on flash writes.15:20
seebsAlso, more fun to have it upload elsewhere.15:21
seebsIf I can convince them I need three columns, not just two, I'll have enough space to introduce a trivial configuration file that sets where to send/save.15:21
seebsI'm pretty much giving an entire column to the gstreamer stuff.  I could have made it shorter, except the maemo repository version of gstreamer plugins-good completely omits the JPEG encoder.15:22
seebsStill, after writing once about crossdev for the Zaurus, scratchbox ins my friend.15:22
seebs... That sentence is ungrammatical, and I am too lazy to fix it.15:22
tkoyeah, fer was complaining about the jpeg encoder as well :-/15:23
seebsIt's surprisingly hard to fix cleanly, because a naive effort at creating a clean package of plugins-good is going to clash.15:24
seebsI went with the brute force solution of "copy just this one file over", but that's crazy.15:24
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s-ndh-cis it possible to install software to the mmc card too?15:31
keesjs-ndh-c, not by default on 770 because it's a file system that does not support symlinks or exec flags , but it is even possible to boot from mmc15:32
seebsYou know what I really want?  I want an option to format the "internal" card to ext3fs instead of FAT32.15:33
s-ndh-ckeesj: sounds cool15:33
jonekkeesj: can you point me to a highlevel documentation about how a Java AWT-peer implementation works? (any related info is welcome!)15:36
keesjjonek, you have to search for ToolKit that is the "real" peer15:37
keesjthis is one of the first links on google
jonekkeesj: I searched for "java awt native peer gtk" but there seems to be no HowTo like info available15:38
keesjwow the classpath project even has  a cairo based peer, I don't think that is's compatible15:45
jonekkeesj: compatible to what?15:46
keesjto the sun peer interface15:47
keesjjonek wat about this
jonekkeesj: what exactly is the "sun peer interface"?15:49
keesjjonek, not all the classes in java are purely written in java , they have native calls15:49
jonekkeesj: I know that15:50
keesjthose methods are grouped here
jonekkeesj: and I understand that AWT can be either implemented by a native toolkit like GTK (map AWT widgets to native widgets) or by letting AWT draw its own widgets in some canvas15:51
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jonekkeesy: what I'm looking for is a document that describes the necessary steps who to do the first.15:54
keesjbut do you want to run midp or awt?15:57
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jonekkeesj: java phoneME advanced MR2 contains a GTK peer implementation. but it is outdated and currently does not compile.15:57
jonekkeesj: at first awt.15:58
keesjjonek, you have completely lost me. this would be a non pure java implementation, I don't think you need full awt for running midp15:59
keesjhow about the midpath thing is that what you are searching for
jonekkeesj: midp for phoneME advanced is actively worked on by SUN16:00
keesjalright I guess I first would need to understand phoneME better16:03
keesjAll I can say it that there are multiple awt toolkit implemetation that alreadt exits. They don't require the source of the jvm to work since it's possible to start them with a command line option16:04
jonekkeesj: but it is not ready yet. I would like to be able to write programs for the 770 in Java that use the GTK native toolkit (preferably hildonized) and I'm evaluating phoneME advanced instead of jamVM and GNUClasspath for that. running MIDP programms (I guess that are mobile phone apps e.g. games) is not my first goal.16:05
keesjwhy not take this toolkit ttp:// and implement a screen renderer for this?16:05
keesjok I understand better now. but not many people use awt , there are no widgets like tree etc16:08
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jonekkeesj: phoneME advanced has a JIT an small footprint - it should fit the 770 system very well and be fast. phoneME advanced implements the CDC with its three profiles (Foundation, Personal Basis, Personal).  the last two support GUI through AWT.)16:12
keesjthat sounds fair16:12
jonekMIDP as I understand is a concept from CLDC16:13
glasspersonal on 770 would be intresting16:13
jonekSUN is working in phoneME advanced MR2 towards providing MIDP for CDC, too16:13
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keesjhmm basic already contains Graphics2d16:17
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keesjI don't even see Widgets in the personal basic profile specs JSR-12916:19
keesjare they in Foundation or something?16:20
jonekglass: see
jonekkeesj: I was wondering about that, too!16:20
shackanto any nokia people in here, is spamming on the list requests to enter the Program actually worth anything or just an annoyance for you ?16:21
jonekkeesj: there is a GTK peer implementation but the API DOC only lists the basic AWT classes. I found no API DOC for any special toolkit implementation.16:21
lle2shackan: I find them annoying, but that's just my personal opinion16:22
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jonekglass: sorry, that was the wrong message. I meant
shackanlle2, right, but right now it seems the only way to get the word out if you haven't hacked on a 770 already16:26
lle2shackan: true, I think the whole thing should've been handled differently :)16:26
keesjjonek, getting java on the 770 is not my top priority(by far). I am willing to help find out such stuff but I will not spend to much time on it16:26
keesj(I prefer to spend my time trying to get xmoto running better for the moment) but even that did not happen in the last week16:27
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keesjI will try to download the source so I can have a look .16:28
shackannobody's working to run phoneME on 800 ? :)16:29
keesjwho is this nobody's guy, he is doing a lot these day's16:30
lle2shackan: and besides, if you do really interesting stuff and make sure someone at nokia is aware of it, getting a tablet is not going to be a problem, whether you get one as part of this dev device program or not16:30
jonekkeesj: :) ok, sorry if I was a apin in you neck.16:31
keesjjonek sorry, I don't understand16:32
glassjonek: gotta check that stuff when i'm sober16:33
c0ffeehum hum16:33
c0ffeei wonder why all the nice goodies available from maemo svn aren't included in bora16:34
c0ffeelike recent gtk, libglade-hildon etc16:34
shackanlle2, all I was looking forward to was a hackable arm device to port my very very very simple kernel to (from x86), be it a N800 or a toaster doesn't matter that much16:35
keesjc0ffee, after hearing from the cairo improvements I am really looking forward to a new version16:35
keesjeven if it would mean that gcompriz will just run fine and I will loose money16:36
lle2shackan: you've looked at things from for example?16:36
lle2shackan: while you're at it you could also get this:
lle2shackan: use that with openocd and it's quite reasonable16:37
lle2shackan: much easier to develop your own kernel with a jtag debugger than just plain serial :)16:38
lle2shackan: I'm using this:
lle2but there are other's with a more interesting feature set16:40
danielslle2: jtag-to-usb> sweet16:41
lle2daniels: it is, and actually works, pretty amazing for the price..16:41
shackanlle2, looks great, thanks (especially the jtag thingie)16:42
danielsgod, i'd forgotten how awful outlook web mail was16:43
lle2shackan: then a get a little oscilloscope/logic analyzer and you're all set, maybe from bitscope (although their pc software sucks bad)16:43
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shackanlle2, ARM7TDMI-S, does it have a MMU ?16:43
lle2shackan: no16:43
lle2shackan: but look at the other boards, there's plenty to choose from16:43
* shackan adds to $wishlist16:48
keesjkender, do you have your 800?16:52
kenderkeesj, I have it ordered, I think that it'll arrive in Monday16:52
keesjdid you already wrote applications for it?16:54
kenderkeesj, no, but I have some project in mind16:54
kenderI want to port Gobby, make some applets with some of mine apps that I use in my pc16:55
kenderand, if I can, use the n800 as a tablet for the computer through bluetooth16:56
kenderI mean, "painting tablet"16:56
kenderdo you know what I'm talking about?16:56
keesjGobby looks nice16:56
kenderyes, some times it is very useful16:57
* Jaffa unDIYs.16:59
kenderJaffa, sorry?17:02
Jaffakender: Do It Yourself, the national pastime of Britain.17:02
danielsi thought that was standing in queues at victoria coach station17:03
kenderbut, undo it yourselves?17:03
daniels(honestly, i thought about offing myself in that queue)17:03
lle2daniels: you funny people who grow upside down may well have issues adjusting to the systemic misery that makes UK what it is17:06
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danielslle2: actually, the weather suits me fine; i hate the heat.  i get annoyed every time it get sabove 20C, which is most of the year in aus.17:08
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kooshmppf reinstalled sb, still no workable gdb in sbox-SDK_X8617:08
lle2daniels: then you definitely came to work in the right country..17:09
danielslle2: yeah, and i ended up taking vitamin d tablets. :\ light is good, just not heat.17:10
lle2daniels: somebody should start making LCD panels that emit whatever it is that makes sunlight good for people17:10
koosdaniels: btw I hear that scandinavia has an extremely mild winter till now17:11
danielslle2: yeah, the only other thing they need to emit is good food and nightlife, and it'll fix all my problems with hki ;)17:11
koos(here in Hamburg it's also +10 or so)17:12
lle2daniels: what's wrong with the food?17:12
lle2nightlife complaint I accept17:12
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danielskoos: yeah, sure.  when i landed last feb, it was 41 not long before i left, and -25 the day i landed.  i have absolutely no problem with the cold (december was way warm; considered t-shirt and shorts for work the other day), but having 4h of daylight (or none, if it's mega cloudy, which it was) per day is seriously broken.17:12
danielslle2: yeah, i'm sure you remember vappu ;) the problem with the food seems to be that the ingredients aren't that great.  if they're finnish, then they're grown up 60°N.  if not, they come from spain or something, and are cheap and shit.17:13
lle2daniels: where do you buy your stuff?17:14
lle2because I think it's perfectly possible to eat reasonably ok in hki :)17:15
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danielslle2: depends.  i tried a few various shops in the centre, but they weren't that much better than k-citymarket, so now i just get it from there, usually.17:15
lle2ok, then the problem is you! go fix yourself.17:16
lle2daniels: actually I don't remember the vappu?17:17
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danielslle2: any food stores you recommend?17:17
danielslle2: oh.  the one with paul wheree you got all depressed and ended up going home because all the nightlife sucked. ;)17:18
lle2daniels: the halls are good for some stuff, and then there's herkku in the stockmann's basement17:18
lle2daniels: you know hakaniemen halli for example?17:19
danielslle2: yeah, stockmann isn't too bad, but it's pretty damn expensive17:19
danielslle2: i went there once, but i didn't manage to find the fresh food section, only fish and some meat?17:20
mlpugwhatis sapwood?17:20
lle2daniels: there's another one near kauppatori17:20
danielsmlpug: it's a gtk 'theme' that deals with sharing pixmap sacross clients to minimise resource usage in the x server17:21
danielslle2: oh?17:21
danielslle2: kauppa halli?17:21
lle2daniels: yeah17:22
danielsor whatever it's called17:22
lle2but you're right, it can get a bit dreadful with fresh stuff17:22
lle2but then you just need to learn to eat different fresh stuff at different times of the year17:23
lle2this ain't exactly a tropical environment here17:23
danielsyeah, i guess17:23
danielsbut given that we have mountainous regions, cold and crisp regions, hot and dry desert regions, and hot and wet tropical regions, i'm a bit used to constant availability of fresh and good everything. :)17:24
xandaniels, dude, spain's food quality is superb, don't know wtf are you talking about ;)17:25
feruloI wonder if I can buy frozen argentinian beef here in .fi17:26
lle2ferulo: no idea, but there's quite often decent brazilian beef available, not sure if that's acceptable to you though ;)17:27
danielsxan: sure, i agree, but the cheap spanish food you get shipped over here ain't great17:27
danielsferulo: frozen? urgh17:27
feruloI mean, you cannot get fresh argentinian beef in europe :)17:27
xandaniels, "export only", I guess17:28
danielsright, but as incredibly good as argentinian beef is, i'd prefer fresh and great beef to frozen and amazing beef17:28
lle2daniels: great > amazing?17:28
danielslle2: fresh + great > frozen + amazing17:29
danielslle2: given that frozen detracts from it somewhat17:29
tkoferulo, seebs is making an article for developerworks about using n800 as webcam or something :)17:29
lle2I don't see why the beef should be "fresh", shouldn't it spend some time "hanging" (or whatever it's called)17:29
feruloseebs: ohh, cool! are you using C or python?17:29
danielsxan: yeah, indeed.  i had a great time eating out when i was in spain last.  and the time before that, too. :)17:30
ferulotko: when you invert the camera, is that a X key event or a dbus signal?17:31
tkoferulo, something lowlevel I think, IIRC there's something in ke-recv about that17:31
xandaniels, right. ego te absolvo :)17:32
danielsa bit flips in sysfs, ke-recv catches this, and flips a bit in gconf (over dbus).  gconfd then wakes up every program using libgconf, because the latter isn't smart enough to set specific dbus watches.  two seconds later, the event's been delivered to your program.17:32
danielsbest architecture ever.17:32
ferulohaha, I'll use gconf then :)17:33
feruloseebs: okii17:36
xanferulo, in these moments I'd like to have iodb.com17:36
feruloare you using xvimagesink and then hooking the window_xid, right?17:36
seebsI have a tiny little gstreamer program that saves webcam images as jpegs.  Now I'm working on adding enough maemo application glue to make it a clickable icon in a menu, and having it upload.17:36
seebsIt ends up being more complicated.17:36
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seebsI have a pipe from the source to xvimagesink, and another pipe to ffmpegcolorspace and jpegenc.17:37
seebsThere's a tee involved.17:37
ferulowhy are you using ffmpegcolorspace? for live video is reaaaaly slooow17:37
seebsSomeone told me I needed it for jpegenc.  I may not.  In any event, ffmpegcolorspace only gets called every few seconds, not on every frame.17:38
dragornyou're... teeing a binary stream?  That's so perverse it's great :P17:38
seebsI am cheating horribly, I have a probe on the output pad which returns false 59 times out of 60.  :)17:39
seebsThis causes the item it looked at to get dropped instead of being forwarded, which is exactly what I want, of course.17:39
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seebsAnyway, that's all working; now I just need to get the maemo application glue and debian package glue, and a way to upload files.  I'm not actually doing a GUI in the example.17:40
seebsI figure an "unnamed" xvimagesink is good enough for now.17:40
* daniels boggles at people demanding a stateful firewall.17:41
keesjperhaps it can be handy if you want vpn not?17:42
dragorndaniels: Hey, you've got way more hardware than most openwrt installs do for stateful fw :P17:42
danielsdragorn: sure, but why do you want it by default if there are zero open ports?17:43
dragorndaniels: Ask not the rationale of users, or your head might explode.17:44
lle2daniels: do we ship with the necessary modules?17:44
danielslle2: some of them.  don't ship conntrack iirc.17:45
Jaffakeesj: Just going to spend some time with my family and watch some telly/have a cup of tea, but the basic first-draft, getting started and simple port walkthrough documentation is up, and announced on the new mailing list:
keesjJaffa, you are a great inspiration , perhaps I will also spend some time with family and kids17:46
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keesjand you have at least on user subscribed to the list :)17:52
Jaffakeesj: didn't last long...17:57
JaffaBut my brothers are coming round for dinner so much drinking and little hacking this evening.17:58
Jaffakeesj: let me know if you have any problems with the walkthrough, I'm fairly pleased with the workflow, though17:59
keesjother that I still get the build dir not set message18:01
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JaffaHmm, try a fresh checkout from Subversion?18:02
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Jaffakeesj: is ~/tmp/trunk empty already?18:04
keesjit was empty18:04
keesjI will check later , I have to go18:06
Jaffahave fun18:06
koosother than some API changed in some libs, apps using advices hilden API and plain gtk should work on both os2006 and os2007, right?18:15
Jaffakeesj: excellent, I'm getting the same error using your command :)18:15
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JaffaOh doh! I'm an idiot.18:18
koenJaffa: but are you an idiot with a discount code?18:22
JaffaNope, so it's alright, I'm not a proper developer...18:22
xanferulo, looks shitty18:28
Jaffa*very* shitty18:28
Jaffakoen: are you yet considered a proper developer?18:28
koenJaffa: sort off18:29
koenJaffa: I got invited to
JaffaCool. All expenses paid?18:30
c0ffeedoes the invitiation come with a discount code?18:30
koenJaffa: yep18:30
Jaffakoen: niiiice.18:30
koenJaffa: even better, I only have to give my name and passport number, they take care off booking stuff18:31
* koen was *very* impressed18:31
jonekkoen: wow! cool conference invitation!! Marcel Holtman (BlueZ) will come, too. Maybe something in the direction of BT head set support for maemo devices could be achived with his help!18:38
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JaffaRight, mud-builder subversion updated so it works now.18:40
keesjkoen but you are even listed here
koenah, cool18:50
* koen spots Robot101 on that list as well18:50
keesjJaffa, netcat build works18:50
koenI can verbally abuse some minimo people for their POS buildsystem as well18:51
keesjare those the firefox guys?18:51
keesjINdT sounds cool18:52
keesjspecially , but so does brasil18:52
shackanyeah, they did Tapioca and lots of other things18:53
jonekINdT made all the cool tapioca stuff18:53
keesjso they have also relation with google i presume18:53
keesjI all sounds so cool!18:53
shackanwell, I guess they use libjingle, so yes18:54
jonekkeesj: indeed, lots of interesting people there and the frontpage refers to the nice beaches :-)18:55
shackanjonek, and the headset person is brad, not really marcel, but oh, he's there too18:55
jonekshackan: :)18:57
jonekbossaconf seems to be THE 770/N800/Maemo conference18:57
shackanbtw, anybody managed to get bluetooth working inside scratchbox?18:57
keesjI tried but did not succeed.18:59
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keesjshackan, there was a post about running maemo stuff outside of scratchbox with only a chroot , perhas that would work. perhaps the sb2 will work.19:00
kooskoen: I read you tried libcairo on n770, no?19:03
koenkoos: on my other arm machines19:04
koosah, ok. I've build it on sb-bora, but crashes on n770 :(19:04
koosI just finished porting the cairo painting from KDE's kmplayer to N770 one, and now I need a working libcairo ..19:06
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koos(works great in SB so far)19:07
suihkulokkikoos: a common cause of "works on sbox/qemu but not on device" is alignement errors19:07
dragornalignment errors suck to track down.  You can (usually) turn off alignment enforcement in /proc (i forget where) but it's a crap way of "solving" the problem.19:09
koossuihkulokki: You don't think it's not working on n770, because it's build on SB w/ bora?19:09
danielsnot really, just attach gdb and see where it catches the signal19:09
koenset fixup of, watch for sigbus in gdb, fix it19:09
dragorndaniels: Wellll yes, if you have remote gdb :P19:09
koenor fixup + warm and decode the addresses19:09
danielson n800, unaligned access work as such, they're just well slow19:09
koendaniels: ah, I always thought there had to bad a catch with arm1119:10
koendaniels: it sounded too good to be true to have real unaligned accesses19:10
koosBtw, the cairo I compiled is 1.3.10, I thought carl and friends tested it on the device19:10
suihkulokkikoos: if it would be caused by bora incompatability, you would have some library dependency problem installing it, not a crash19:10
koossuihkulokki: actually I hacked around that problem, to get users install a lib19:11
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suihkulokkiofcourse, there is the much greater than zero chance that someone updated a library and did not update soname and/or shlibs19:12
koenkoos: I had a laugh when Xan posted a profile using showing an arm11 cpu before the n800 was announced :)19:13
kooskoen: btw, you as oe guy and such, have you or do you know of any plans to keep n770 up-to-date w/ the oss packages such as the new gtk19:16
koenkoos: plans, yes19:17
Jaffakeesj: excellent, glad to hear it.19:17
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koenkoos: finding the time to get it to fit together nicely, no19:17
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koosI have this strange feeling that real community dev can now start now that nokia has moved on to its successor19:19
koos(nobody waits anymore for nokia)19:20
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atlasuccessor of the n800? ;)19:27
atlaor do you mean there is no community dev for n80019:27
Disconnectkoos: you'd think so, but consider zaurus. when tt/sharp gave up it kinda petered out into a side project19:27
koos_Disconnect: still that platform has much hacking (and I think there a lot more n770 out there)19:29
koos_(ask koen :-)19:29
tkokoos_, there's cairo 1.2 in sardine, and we'll have 1.3 once our lawyers are done with it19:30
koos_tko: darn I overlooked that one indeed. I try it ..19:32
koenyou want 1.3, that's insanely faster as 1.219:35
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seebsHey, sorry if this is too off-topic, but:  In BSD-land, I can do things like "mount -t null directory1 directory2" and have directory1 show up also at directory2.19:41
seebsIs there a Linuxy way to do this?19:41
Taker, --bind19:41
* Tak mashes the D on his kb19:41
seebsThank you kindly.19:42
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koos_tko: .. hmm same crash, I'll debug a bit ..19:46
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jonekfound some interesting reading about java/AWT/gtk implementation:
Disconnectgrrr these random reboots are annoying. guess i should look at why its happening.19:55
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keesjjonek, the document smells like latex19:56
jonekkeesj: of course, it's a Ph.D. thesis :)19:57
keesjI just helped my girlfriend with hers (lyx + latex)19:58
Disconnectwhats the reboot-reason path again? /proc/bootreason just says 32wd_to (not as helpful as i'd hoped)19:58
HGFBDoes anyone have the minimo repository added in the application manager? I can't get it to work?19:58
koos_jonek: I understand having java for those mobile phone apps, but why else does somebody want java. You can't run eclips on this :-)20:00
jonekkoos_: good question :) - do you mean the 770 by 'this'?20:01
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koos_jonek: yes, but actually everything with less than 1Gb20:02
shackanbut you can run *games* ! :D20:03
jonekkoos_: ok - 770 is not suited as a development platform. but why should all that available Java code and experience not be usable on the 770?20:03
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mokkiwill n800 support SDHC (aka >2GB sd cards) at a later time?20:04
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jonekkoos_: SUN's java phoneME advanced (the CDC platform) targets exactly at devices like the Nokia 770. I don't really understand why Nokia is not directly supporting a combination of Java and Maemo.20:05
Disconnectjonek: probably money20:06
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koos_jonek: good question, but that is also for all other lang. or tk's out there. I do some java development my self (see, so it's not that I don't like it (nor Qt for instance)20:06
Takprobably time20:06
Disconnectlicense the arm accelerator, license the java specs, etvc20:06
Takphoneme was released not that long ago20:06
Disconnectso.. what is the path for the list of reboot reasons?20:07
koos_jonek: yes for mobile phone apps its okay I guess20:07
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keesjbut when purely looking a the languages I would say that .net with c# is the more modern20:07
keesj(contains more design patterns in the language)20:08
mokkidoes SDHC require special HW support. At least the linux kernel will support it soon
jonekDisconnect: of course! supporting another language next to C (glib) and Python is a big effort.20:08
jonekTak: right - the option to go via phoneME is a new option. I want to take it.20:09
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Disconnect(grr any search option on the irc archives?)20:11
keesjbut it is really  a shame that hidlon != gtk for that reason20:11
jonekkeesj: I think asking for Java on the 770 is not a matter of 'more modern'.20:12
Disconnecthmm. should dsp_dld be crashing my 800 periodically?20:12
Disconnect/usr/sbin/dsp_dld -p --disable-restart -c /lib/dsp/dsp_dld_avs.conf :  3 *20:12
Disconnect(resets shows 3, restarts shows 19)20:13
keesjhmm I have been talking a lot :P20:13
Disconnectjonek: any way to link it from the index page?20:14
jonekDisconnect: why should I know?20:14
Disconnectanyone know who owns it?20:14
koos_Btw, how come some already have the n800 (I hope that doesn't mean the invitation program is over)?20:15
Disconnectkoos_: it hasn't started yet20:16
jonekDisconnect: search for the search url with the search url. I think the one who posted it first owns the site :)20:16
Disconnectits not a prerelease. its a "thanks for the help on our platform, now upgrade your apps" coupon.20:16
koos_Disconnect: ah, there is still hope ..20:16
*** Disconnect changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at Search: | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 2007ish engineering release plans for the 770:"20:17
*** Disconnect changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at Search: | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 2007ish release plans for the 770:"20:17
*** Disconnect changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at Search: | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 2007ish release plans for the 770:"20:17
Disconnectstupid length limits :)20:17
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Disconnectwow that 4-page topic is a real conversation killer :)20:26
koos_actually I finally started debugging .. till now :-)20:27
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* jonek is cooking some tortellini20:32
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jonekshit, I forgot "but don't tell anyone" behind the search URL ;-)20:35
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kenderany howto about how to hildonize a normal gtk app?20:39
jonekkeesj: phoneME already seems to contain something like the PJA Toolkit you reffered to:
jonekkeesj: ?20:43
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jonekkender: the last URL was for you20:44
kenderthanks jonek20:44
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* Disconnect hasn't decided if he wants to port maemo mapper or weechat.20:55
tkowhy choose?-)20:56
keesjDisconnect, you did not really give the developer a change did you?20:57
Disconnectcuz i have been working 10-14 hour days and likely will continue to do so. (i'm "the guy" for a web services company - 40G/sec of outbound traffic usually - where the entire admin team quit.) so i've only got time for one app (and some drinking :) ..)20:58
Disconnectkeesj: ?20:58
keesjdoes the developer of maemo mapper want to port maemo mapper to n800?20:59
c0ffeei guess as soon as he got his discount code, he'll do20:59
koos_Disconnect: cheers (got myself a sixpack for this evening, gotto love these germans)20:59
Disconnectyah thats pretty much what he's said20:59
Disconnectkoos_: heh. yah. i'm deciding if its too early to drink yet today. (probably not, so long as i keep the caffeine flowing too :) ..)21:00
keesjbut I would be an interesting effort to see if mud or something else can build with and without the gps api support21:00
Disconnectmy other option is to start hacking on the car computer interface.21:02
Disconnect(put the usb-host kit back together, light up a dev env and figure out how to get it talking to the viper board i've got that has all the storage/etc options on it..)21:02
Disconnecthmm. the test pins are just serial, right? no chance of whipping up i2c on them?21:03
Disconnect(on the 770)21:03
c0ffeeis there any information available on what the pins do?21:05
c0ffeethe only thing I know is that they are too many for a serial port21:05
c0ffeeand that it's possible to brick the device with them21:05
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Disconnect has some info on the serial console pings21:16
Disconnect4 pins for tty (2 ground) and 7 undefined.21:17
Disconnect(so not quite 'serial' since its 3.3v)21:17
* Disconnect is hoping there's a gpio there somewhere21:17
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PioWHILE APPLE'S proposed iPhone might have OSX onboard, Steve Jobs is adamant that there will be no third party applications allowed.21:19
qgilPio: I was having a llok at
qgilPio: not even a ringtone, wow21:29
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framerate|afkDisconnect: did the mapper deb I sent not work or something?21:32
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jonekqgil: LOL@inquirer iPhone article21:33
qgiljonek: well, it's a consistent, explicit and transparent (?) strategy21:34
* jonek hugs his 77021:35
suihkulokkithat's even worse than BREW21:35
suihkulokkiotoh even BREW had to backpedal and it gives development chances for developers as well21:35
suihkulokkion this side of pond locking down iPhone for pay-only content seems like a commercial suicide21:36
suihkulokkibut there it's the norm of industry..21:36
qgiljonek: the challenge here is the same as usual: to bring the principles of emancipation to mainstream users in a time when "emancipation" doesn't seem to be a very valued value21:37
joneknow everybody who complained about N800 and 770 to be crap in face of the iPhone has to regret21:38
qgiljonek: all this are debates of minorities in the catacombs - we are here for something bigger than that21:38
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jonekqgil: *nod*21:40
tigertkeesj: have you actually tried that maemo-mapper does *not* work?21:40
c0ffeebtw, there's ipodlinux21:41
c0ffeeso much for the ipod concept :)21:41
keesjtigert, no21:41
tigertkeesj: try? :)21:41
framerateSo my N800 is definitely reporting a 4gb card correctly... that's interesting21:41
tigertkeesj: I think it works21:42
joneklet's see how fast the iPhone is linux0rt21:42
tigertit might bork on some dependency from mistral repo, but I think it worked21:42
tigertI recall installing the real debconf to actually satisfy some deps to run mistral stuff on the N80021:42
tigertbut some things do work just okay21:42
* tigert tries it so he knows if it was true or not21:42
qgilthe question is: what do you want to do with your iPod / iPhone that the official firmware is not allowing you to do?21:43
keesjstill , it would be good to port it right?21:43
Disconnectframerate: worked fine, but it doesn't use the new bluetooth handler21:44
qgiltigert: I can almost hear you when you type21:44
framerateDisconnect: cool cool. I figured it works ok till gnuite gets around to releasing a new update21:45
jonekqgil: nope. the more a devices claims itself not to be capable to run an open OS the more it is attractive to hack it21:45
tigertqgil: in finland now?21:45
qgiltigert: yes!21:45
qgiljonek: that's fine but it's still a hacker's game21:45
tigertwe need to do a dinner next week with the folks21:45
tkoqgil, thanks for bringing the snow :)21:45
qgilHOW HOW HOW [jingles]21:46
shaprHey, is there a correct name for something that has one purpose and communicates via bluetooth? Like the GPS bluetooth widgets?21:46
c0ffeeqgil, with the ipod: play ogg files21:46
shaprI was thinking of a GSM/EDGE/UMTS bluetooth widget so I could use my 770 as a phone.21:46
MilhouseDisconnect: You check if you have received a private irc chat from me?21:46
shaprAnd then I wouldn't have to deal with shitty phone software.21:46
suihkulokkijonek: the latest generation of nanos is not hacked21:46
qgilc0ffee: good answer! 1 point - what else?21:47
c0ffeeplay flacs21:47
MilhouseDisconnect: Can you check (etc.) :) thanks21:47
qgilin fact this is a uselful exercise for our beloved -open- platform21:47
joneksuihkulokki: I didn't say it can be heached21:47
Disconnectgot it, sending now21:47
Milhousethanks :)21:48
tigertkeesj: ok, it depends on some libbluetooth from mistral I think21:49
tigertand I dont think its good to downgrade to those.. hmm21:49
Disconnectok i'm just gonna put the MM bins on the web. its easier.21:49
qgiltigert: about dinners, this week we are still in a hotel and my partner is carrying the children here and there. Besides, Valtteri has an entertaining agenda for me this week - but definitely, we need to meet in a table anytime soon21:49
tigerthas anyone tried to rebuild maemo mapper wth bora?21:50
Disconnecttigert: the mm bin I have just needs a new libsqlite21:50
tigertqgil: yea, maybe later21:50
tigertDisconnect: ok21:50
Disconnectno idea where it came from btw, so don't ask me for build info :)(21:50
frameratetigert: it's not official, it's just been passed around a few times21:51
c0ffeeqgil, where are you?21:51
qgilc0ffee, jonek, I will come back with that question looking for answers applicable to maemo in the short-mid term: what do we want to do that can't do now?21:51
qgilc0ffee: Radisson hotel ruoholahti21:51
shaprqgil: inject raw 802.11 frames?21:51
c0ffeeqgil, you mean besides the obvious? :(21:52
Disconnect for anyone who wants bora-compat maemo mapper21:52
Disconnectit'll tell you what libsqlite it wants21:52
shaprqgil: missing bluetooth profiles21:52
qgilwhat do we want to do that can't do now... with any device21:52
c0ffeebtsco especially21:52
shaproh, not with any device...21:52
shaprsoftware radio21:52
c0ffeemultiple bt connections21:53
shaprmultiple wifi connections21:53
qgilof course there are many gaps covered by other platforms, systems, devices... we need to work on these too - but the future is shaped by the ideas that nobody has got today  :)21:53
shaprqgil: I'd like a totally different form factor, I want a torc that hangs around my neck21:53
c0ffeei want it to be multiple parts21:54
shaprYeah, I want that too.21:54
qgilI'm not saying we need to ocus on utopia, but (at least for myself) utopias are more than useful to define the next steps21:54
c0ffeelike f.e. a small buzzer that reminds me of a date21:54
c0ffeeor the cam should be detachable21:54
c0ffeethe n800 appears to be even larger than the 77021:54
shaprA GPS aware todo list21:54
qgilshapr: what implications would this torc have for Maemo - write them down  :)21:54
c0ffeeand the 770 was already too large21:54
shapr770 is perfect size for me, but I'm a large person (not fat, just large).21:55
Disconnectc0ffee: how do you figure larger? its slightly larger in one direction (width IIRC) but shorter and thinner. and lighter.21:55
tigertthe point is, if it is very small,21:55
Disconnect(without the 770 hardcase. with it its -way- smaller.)21:55
c0ffeeDisconnect, i only saw videos so far :/21:55
tigertlike a mobile phone,21:55
tigertthe web browsing in it sucks21:55
shaprExcept my fingers are too big to operate even the thumbboard well :-(21:55
tigertI think the 770 was the sweet spot for htat21:55
c0ffeetigert, maybe a flexible display you could pull out?21:55
tigertthe n800 is a bit bigger21:55
tigertbut it still fits in a pocket nicely21:55
tigertwe dont have flexible displays21:56
shaprOr what about projecting the display on sun/glasses?21:56
c0ffeei think qgil is interested in software / system design questions21:56
c0ffeeand not so much in hardware dreams21:56
shaprc0ffee: Yeah, but big dreams lead to big ideas :-)21:56
tigertits also, that if you shrink the device,21:56
tigertyou cannot shrink the ui indefinitely21:56
Disconnectpython apps should run totally unmodified on 770 and 800, right?21:56
tigertsome things need to fit your fingers or eyesight21:56
c0ffeei'm not sure whether it's meanwhile possible to leverage the DSPs21:56
c0ffeethat surely would need a good api21:57
shaprtigert: But you've hit on a good point, fingers and eyesight are the only human hardware ui limitations.21:57
c0ffeemost non-nokia applications are burning too much cpu cycles21:57
tigertshapr: and websites need at least 800 pixels wide screen21:57
shaprIt would be possible to easy if the DSP dev could be done with gcc21:57
tigertand you cannot shrink that much more21:58
Disconnectshapr: why fingers? lots of stuff can be done with non-traditional inputs (retinal tracking? alpha-wave? subvocalization or sub-movement tracking of hands, etc)21:58
Disconnectif you're gonna dream :)21:58
tigertI'd say this is close to minimum21:58
shaprDisconnect: good point21:58
tigertsince text is very small already21:58
c0ffeeshapr, there are ppl that are better in dsp asm than c :)21:58
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qgilspell recognition21:58
shaprStill, downloading a separate program to do DSP dev doesn't fit with the rest of the SDK21:58
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Disconnectqgil: spell recognition like <armwave, wide stance> i cast MAGIC GOOGLE<clap!>21:58
c0ffeeor checkpoint support21:59
c0ffeethe it's easier to suspend programs out of memory21:59
tigertwhats the problem when scratchbox cannot resolve hostnames?21:59
c0ffeeeven if they don't support it21:59
c0ffeetigert, no /etc/resolv.conf ?21:59
tigertit had21:59
c0ffeeor wrong entries21:59
tigertit had "nameserver"22:00
tigertI changed it to my local named22:00
tigertbut still nothing22:00
qgilDisconnect: spell recognition like me talking to the tiny beast instead of typing22:00
Disconnectspeech recognition?22:00
shaprI'd like to do more with voice recog. I have this dream for a voice input and visual display interface, something that looks like Aardappel for programming -
qgilspeech, yes22:00
* Disconnect wants spell recognition22:00
Disconnectadapt the wii22:00
shaprThat's a good idea22:01
tigertvoice recognition reminds me of COMDEX 2000 I think22:01
tigertwhen we were there with Ximian22:01
tigertthe ibm voice recog demo dude said "This is a demonstration of the ibm viavoice technology"22:01
shaprDisconnect: that's a really cool idea, you put an accelerometer into the device and use it as a "magic wand" ?22:01
tigertand the screen read: "this is a devastation of the ibm..."22:02
shaprtigert: haha22:02
Disconnecttigert: heh22:02
tigertand the dude didnt even blink :)22:02
shaprtigert: I was thinking more of un-natural language recognition.22:02
tigertsure, its hard stuff to get right22:02
Disconnectshapr: there is a game at myrtle beach that we saw - its all magic-based. you get a wand and it tracks you, when you 'zap' (just like it sounds) an object (prop) it reacts. kinda neat.22:02
shackantigert, vista has a similar feature, and the first live demonstration they aired had a similar end22:02
qgilyou could read and sort your email while driving alone to work with 6 words or so activanting the 6 actions or so you actually do with your email22:03
shaprToo bad GPS has such low resolution.22:03
* jpetersen would also be interested in the solution of the scratchbox hostname resolving problem22:03
Disconnect(zap as in point-and-stab, so accelerometer and location-tracking cuz there can be multiple targets in a room, you might have 3 in a line so it has to know which you are looking at, etc)22:03
c0ffeeshapr, i saw a gps unit with min. 7cm precission last week :)22:04
c0ffeeshapr, 150.000$ at your local us military job22:04
shaprHey, could you use multiple N800s to track each other's location via ultrasonics, or whatever?22:04
shaprc0ffee: I thought that was military only hardware?22:04
Disconnectshapr: i -really- doubt the mic will pick up ultrasonics22:04
c0ffeeshapr, yeah22:04
Disconnect..or care :)22:04
shaprI know the military protocol has that sort of resolution...22:04
c0ffeeshapr, it's for some darpa sponsored project22:04
jonekqgil: in my research work I'm concerned with multi hop WLAN protocols. I think that would offer a whole new perspective for mobile devices like the 770. many more P2P-Ad-Hoc like sollutions to communicate.22:05
shaprc0ffee: Tell me more, I want one!22:05
shackanshapr, you could measure the bluetooth signal strength indicator22:05
shaprshackan: Oh that's a cool idea22:05
danielsheh.  final call for british airways flight seven seven zero.22:05
* Disconnect has worked with relative-location-based tracking. its a -hard- topic. 22:05
shaprjonek: olsr?22:05
c0ffeeat the university, one group is working on self-localization in buildings22:06
Disconnecteven with fixed precisely-measured base units, and way better RSSI resolution than we're gonna have on the tablet, it was close to unsolvable.22:06
c0ffeebased on the wireless networks you can see22:06
Disconnect(did it move 10ft left or did Joe step in front of the antenna again?)22:06
shackanDisconnect, it it was easy there'd be no fun researching it :D22:06
jonekshapr: yes things like that - but think of more than just IP connectivity22:06
shaprDisconnect: hehe, would it be easier if you had multiple measurements like wifi, bluetooth, and audio?22:07
Disconnect"are you in the building" is easy. "are you in the middle of the room" is not hard. "are you in the room" isn't great (near the edge, for example)) and "who's cube are you in" is basically impossible.22:07
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Disconnectshapr: not really. if you are gonna do that, just use IR pingers...22:07
qgilit would be nice if Maemo was able to make your dreams feasible, if only today at a heavily cut alpha version, and tomorrow...22:07
c0ffeei'd like to have a set of maemo enabled applications on my desktop22:07
shaprDisconnect: Along the same lines, what about faraday cage paint and running wifi on the inside?22:08
tkodaniels, still enjoying the flight(s) ?-)22:08
shackanqgil, Quim Gil ?22:08
shaprThen you'd know where you are.22:08
c0ffeeand when i go away from my desktop, I drag the application state on my 77022:08
qgilshackan: yes22:08
c0ffeeand can continue to work there on the exact same application state22:08
Disconnectshapr: thats hardly feasable though, in a real installation22:08
shaprDisconnect: Yeah, I just realized that.22:08
c0ffeeand later connect to 770 to the desktop again22:08
danielstko: turns out i'm on the same flight as samuel ortiz though, which is great22:08
shackanqgil, of GNOME fame?22:08
danielsit almost makes up for the utter disaster this has been so far22:08
tkodaniels, heh. enjoy22:09
Disconnect(mil was looking for self-assembling self-defining nodes - drop a pile of them semi-randomly into an area and they self-assemble a network and can track mobile nodes by relative position to the fixed nodes)22:09
c0ffeesmart dust stuff :)22:09
shaprc0ffee: Wait, did you say $150k for that GPS unit?22:09
shackanDisconnect, wireless mesh networking + gps was too cheap ?22:09
c0ffeeit's a bit large22:09
Disconnectsorta. except they were way larger. more sensors too.22:09
danielstko: also had to walk the entire length of terminal 4 to find a bloody powerpoint22:09
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qgilqgil, the guy that woke up today at 4am in order to make all the necessary steps to arrive to Finland with partner, kid and baby  :)22:09
c0ffeeit's one of those autonomous cars that's supposed to drive through a desert22:10
* qgil goes to literally dream22:10
Disconnectshackan: gps doesn't work indoors, in the rain, etcetcetc.22:10
qgilin bed22:10
shaprDisconnect: Michael Salib et al did research on that at MIT22:10
danielsqgil: if it's any consolation, the last flight i had was even worse than this one22:10
cesmanrest well22:10
Disconnectshapr: yah .. bunch of guys at umd did it too, we had periodic visits22:10
qgildaniels: I don't try to compete with antipodians22:10
shackanqgil, bye!22:10
qgilso... good night!22:10
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shaprDisconnect: From the papers I read, it looked like it would work fine.22:10
* tko was shortly wondering why would daniels be looking for presentations in the terminal...22:10
shaprtko: hah, me too22:10
Disconnectshapr: try it some time :)22:11
shaprDisconnect: If had spare money to buy that sort of hardware.... yeah right...22:11
danielsqgil: had to leave at 3am since there was no metro early christmas eve.  didn't end up sleeping at all.  walked into city, was no airport bus since it was christmas eve, so had to just take a taxi anyway.  got there, was forced to check one bag in despite the flight literally having less than 20 people.  was harassed by stupid immigration staff at heathrow.  lounges were all closed.22:11
danielsand that was just finland <-> uk.  travel is not kind to me.22:11
danielstko: you've been at nokia too long :)22:11
c0ffeei always wonder whether for native speakers, "powerpoint" sounds as pathetic as "kraftpunkt" in german (literal translation)22:11
Disconnectshapr: the nodes we used cost less than $50 each to build. (plus a startup of a couple hundred to get the boards printed and cut)22:11
shaprDisconnect: wow22:11
Disconnectc0ffee: it sounds like something that you plug your laptop into :)22:11
shaprc0ffee: Sounds to me like a mouse for body builders.22:12
tkodaniels, yes, that and I don't hear that term in the other context at all that often22:12
c0ffeein german it just sounds ridiculous22:12
c0ffeewinzigweich kraftpunkt22:12
* shapr snickers22:12
* shackan wonders if frenchmen felt the need to translate it in their language as well22:13
shaprDisconnect: Still, I have other projects that are more likely to make the world a better place.22:13
danielsc0ffee: um, you do know that i'm from australia, right?22:13
shaprI thought the French did that more than others? "courielle" is email22:13
c0ffeedaniels, no22:13
c0ffeedaniels, why?22:13
shaprI'm from Alabama!22:14
danielsc0ffee: well, now you do. :)22:14
shackanshapr, they do22:14
danielsc0ffee: the native speakers thing22:14
* Disconnect is just outside wash dc.22:14
shackanshapr, what kind of projects?22:14
shaprshackan: Fermat's Last Margin lets people annotate research papers and share the annotations online.22:14
framerateAlabama woot!22:14
c0ffeedaniels, ah, well that was unrelated to you22:14
framerateshapr: I'm trying to buy some land there :/22:14
danielsc0ffee: oh, okay22:14
c0ffeeit just came up in my mind22:14
shackanshapr, that's a nerd joke or it's for real? :)22:15
* Disconnect was horrified by alabama. 22:15
shaprshackan: OfficeWindow is an always-on videoconferencing terminal that's designed to improve teamwork among distant offices in a company22:15
shaprshackan: Both, of course22:15
shaprDisconnect: Alabama has its scary bits, but wash dc has scary bits that cost billions of dollars =)22:15
* framerate spent a lot of his childhood in Alabama.. it's peaceful22:15
shaprframerate: Whereat?22:16
Disconnectstopped at a dollar-store and riteaid (or some such) strip mall to try to find shotglasses and some snacks. i didn't stop shaking for HOURS after we got back on the road.22:16
shaprSounds like you stopped in Arab :-)22:16
Disconnectand we didn't even stop for gas before we were out of the state.22:16
Disconnect"Pee later honey, we're FLEEING!" ;)22:16
framerateshapr: Northern Alabama, town called "Russellville". My family has owned land there for like 150 years, but I guess they might be selling some of it off22:16
shaprframerate: My mother lives in Muscle Shoals, I'm driving up there tomorrow.22:16
framerateahh yes, like 30 minutes away I think?22:17
shaprshackan: I could go into a long list of interesting projects if you want to hear about 'em :-)22:17
shaprframerate: Yup, something like that.22:17
framerateThe land i want is like all forest, with awesome clay roads and stuff.. build a cabin or something22:17
shaprSounds like a good place to ride my mountain unicycle!22:17
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frameratejust north of highway 24 :)22:18
framerateshapr: hah on dear22:18
shackanshapr, don't worry listing all of them, you're lucky to have so much free time tough :P22:18
shaprOh I don't, I just have ideas and most of them don't get that far =)22:18
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shaprInductrack is a recent development that got me creative juices going. It's worth reading about.22:19
shaprThat and Halback Arrays, etc22:20
Disconnectshapr: if you have a pair of decent controllable radio you can do the basic localization test yourself. in theory, rssi readings will give you a circle centered on the base unit for your position. set it up in an 'ideal' setup (no barriers, etc) and work out the rssi->distance conversion. then try moving it, turning the antenna, etc.. it'll put you all over the map.22:20
shaprDisconnect: does anyone use rotating antennae?22:20
Disconnecti wouldn't be surprised if just leaving it sit still for a while showed wild (comparatively) variations in "position" - in our tests, with good radios, the at-rest variance tended to be 5-10 ft (with base nodes about every 20, plus some in offices and such)22:20
Disconnectshapr: when you are carrying something, its unlikely to be held perfectly oriented to the base...22:21
Disconnectplus you need ot be able to vary the tx strength22:21
shaprIn that case, why use rssi?22:21
Disconnectshapr: instead of..?22:21
shackanshapr, Inductrack as in magnetic levitation transports ? (that's what wikipedia says at least)22:21
shaprWhy not use a "local" GPS?22:21
shaprshackan: yup22:21
Disconnectlike what?22:21
shaprI mean use your own GPS transmitters.22:22
shaprMaybe not on the same frequency, etc, but the basic principle of GPS gets around all those problems.22:22
shackanso you're looking for dedicated hardware, good luck22:23
shaprWhat about a coupla gnu usrps?22:23
Disconnectgps tells you the distance from a transmitter, given that the transmitter is in a known position/velocity and has an amazingly accurate clock. starting with $8-40k for the clock, that rapidly gets too expensive for any of the use-cases.22:23
shaprIs there a usable midpoint there?22:23
shackanusrpswhat ?22:24
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danielsjesus.  the drought in australia's getting so bad that previously huge rivers have dried up enough that dead bodies are surfacing.22:24
Disconnectshapr: more base units make it easier to define a location (eg unit 4 throws everything off because Joe put his coffee cup on it, but thats ok because 1 and 3 can detect that and adjust the algo..) but thats why its still in the thesis stage22:24
shackanahhhhh yes, damn acronyms22:25
Disconnectshapr: see my earlier examples.. building is simple, floor is easy, center-of-room is doable, edge-of-room is hard, specific location is near impossible22:25
shaprDisconnect: It still seems to me that there must be a cheaper than GPS but more exact than rssi midpoint.22:25
* jonek appreciates the activity on the mailinglist22:25
Disconnectshapr: seriously, like what?22:26
shaprI'd investigate GPS with a cheaper clock, or find a way to make a cheaper clock more accurate.22:26
shaprBut these suggestions may be worth exactly what you're paying for them.22:26
* keesj appreciates the community here a lot22:27
Disconnectgps works on relative distance based on speed-of-light transit times. for "local" gps you need -more- accurate clocks, not less...22:27
shaprI can think of a bunch of approaches that might increase the resolution of GPS.22:28
shaprDisconnect: We should talk about this when I don't have a deadline :-)22:29
Disconnectshapr: go one better.. grab a patent, come back and we'll make big money.22:29
shaprI do have some patentable ideas, but I lack the connections to make a prototype :-(22:29
sxpertbeware of lawyers22:30
Disconnectno, beware of the "inventors call now!" infomercials. for patents, its often not that bad to just hire a patent lawyer to knock out the funny bits.22:31
sxpertthat too22:32
jtokashIs there a maemo mapper how to / introduction / review article somewhere?22:46
frameratejtokash: it hasn't officially been ported to N800 if that's what you're looking for22:46
jtokashBasically something that can give me an idea of its capabilities and reliability22:46
jtokashyep, I know22:46
jtokashI still have my 770.22:46
frameratejtokash: best I've found is
jtokashI'm considering buying a bt gps and I need a little more convincing22:47
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jtokashThanks for the link, framerate22:47
frameratejtokash: no problem22:49
jtokashany suggestions for a bt gps?22:51
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frameratejtokash: I've had good luck with i-blue, like 79.9922:52
keesjI have the adapt AD-300 (30 hours navigation , 16 channels), I find it a bit slow to find it's initial position22:53
jtokashthanks for the suggestions, framerate, keesj23:00
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jtokashIt looks like I'll probably have to order online.  Best Buy doesn't seem to have anything good.23:00
jtokashMaybe I'll take a trip to Fry's.23:00
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cesmanframerate: this is the one right?
cesmanyou're using that w/ Maemo Mapper?23:02
frameratecesman: works fine with maemo mapper, and my macbook pro, AND my blackberry pearl23:07
framerateI'm happy with it, I think. Can't complain about anything specifically23:07
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keesjI found maemo mapper nice as toy but not really usable for driving or other things23:17
jtokashkeesj, that's a bummer.  Have you tried the official navigation bundle, too?23:18
keesjit is very hard (at least in holland) to find driving instructions.23:18
WhizI think map rotation would increase the usability while driving23:18
keesjand i drive so fast that the gprs is not fast enough to download the images at the right time23:19
keesjalso I have only been able to use google map data and I don't event know if it's allowed23:20
keesjno I did not try the navicore23:20
keesjWhiz, yes , but it would still be image based v.s. vector23:21
jtokashmaybe I'll just wait for the n800 official23:22
Disconnectgpsdrive is for driving, maemo mapper is for .. mapping :)23:22
framerateDisconnect: what is gpsdrive?23:22
keesjSo I like it when I walk the dog and use satellite maps23:22
maihemIt would be cool if it detected how fast you were going and zoomed in/out as appropriate.23:22
Disconnectframerate: an app for driving. the idea for maemo mapper comes from gpsdrive (according to the homepage, don't get all wiggy at me about it :) ..)23:22
keesjIt can be improved a lot but it's already quite nice23:23
maihemI just have to say, OMG, the n800 display and touch screen are soooo cool! I can't believe this thing is only £24 more than the 770.23:24
keesjBut I find it interesting to see what happens with the navicore, I have not seen commercial software on open source very often23:24
framerateDisconnect: does gpsdrive actually keep the direction you're heading as the "top" ?23:25
* Disconnect checks to make sure his nick hasn't mysteriously changed to 'google' ;)23:25
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* framerate cries23:25
Disconnectdon't cry, google is easy. just go to and type in "gpsdrive" and hit "i feel lucky"23:26
frameratehaha after I sent you maemo mapper you give me the "google" answer!23:26
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Disconnector use the wiki23:27
Disconnectgoogle didn't have the n800-compatible maemo mapper. i tried there first :)23:27
* framerate goes to look up this new fangled "google" thing23:27
Disconnectgoogle it :)23:31
klaatuI was told that earlier in the week compusa had the n800 listed on the web, but now I can't find it, I called a few stores and they were clueless...23:33
Disconnectits with the cellphones (and the 770) .. i got lucky, the one near me knew what it was23:34
tkozuh, was your cairo benchmark on n800 with softfloat or hardfloat?23:35
jtokashklaatu, part number 34404723:37
jtokashif that helps23:37
klaatuah, thanks, I'll call them and as for that, thanks23:37
klaatusearching for that on the doesn't find anything23:38
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cesmanklaatu: where do you live?23:51
cesmanother coast23:52
cesmanI'm in Ca23:52
Disconnectklaatu: fwiw the one near baltimore has it :)23:52
cesmanfound  them at my local compusa23:52
klaatumy dad went on the compusa site and found which stores had the n800, but when I looked nada23:52
cesmanpicked one up yesterday!23:52
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framerateDisconnect: this gpsdrive looks more like what I need for my car, do you know if the project author is still active?23:57

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