IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-01-10

danielsdwd: well, write your own module, and you can do whatever you like over usb. :)00:00
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danielsdwd: or just use libusb00:00
danielshub: /topic00:00
dwdAleksandyr: Yes, but the GPS is owned by the US. Various other countries are a little nervous about that, and are putting together a more neutral one.00:00
hubdaniels: you mean they'll announce it?00:00
hubdaniels: ok.00:00
hubanyway looks like I'll have hard time here, because Canada is like 3rd-world00:01
Aleksandyrdwd: being a citizen of the US, I can entirely understand how we might make other countries nervous, sadly --- I'm aware of that effort, but they're not calling it GPS. Dear god, I hope not, at least...00:01
dwdhub: No, you'll be contacted if you win the N800 lottery.00:01
danielshub: i mean that there's no way to apply; developers will just be selected, and anyone who gets picked will get emailed00:01
hubah ok00:01
MilhouseEuro GPS is called Galileo00:01
* hub has one won at guadec 200500:01
* bstock wonders if its possible to apply to be developer for n800 lottery, even if he can't develope00:02
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dwdbstock: You don't need to be a developer, you just need to sound like one on the right mailing lists. Just make lots of posts saying "I think there's a D-bus interface for that", and "No, only on the N800", and that kind of thing.00:04
Milhousewhat about "It's not a phone!"00:04
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Aleksandyrdwd: hrm. I rather hope it's not based on the mailing lists, but that's far more logical than anything else I've heard ;)00:04
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danielsdwd: haha00:05
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bstockyou need to install the jdk, not the jre, dumbass! <-- how's that sound? wait.. prob not a lot of java programming on these tablets..00:05
dwdAleksandyr: I hope it's based on people who take a leading role in developing standards relevant to the device, and provide first implementations of them.00:06
dwdAleksandyr: But perhaps I'm a little biased.00:06
Aleksandyrbstock: how about ARM != armel? That's one I haven't heard in awhile :D00:06
Aleksandyrdwd: Just a pinch, you think? ;)00:06
hubAleksandyr: there is armbe00:06
bstockheh i knew that one, though i don't really know the difference if someone asked me to explain00:06
danielshub: armeb00:08
Aleksandyrbstock: ARM is what every other linux PDA uses. Armel is what 2006 uses. ;)00:08
Aleksandyrdaniels & hub: please, not another thing to remember ;)00:08
bstockso Armel > ARM00:08
dwdbstock: Also, never refer to anything by the name anyone else uses, instead pick the most obscure designation. So, for instance, don't say SMTP, say RFC4409.00:08
danielsAleksandyr: it's okay, big-endian arm doesn't actually exist00:08
danielsbstock: not really.  arm is an architecture.  originally there was an abi for arm called oabi.  the new one is eabi, and it's not crap.00:09
bstocklol yeah that sounds developer-ish00:09
bstockg/j ;)00:09
bstocki'll just copy/paste that line into a mailing list somewhere and win an n80000:09
hubdaniels: armbe00:10
Milhousewill the list of "winners" be published or will it be like these cornflake packet competitions to win a mansion and you never know if anyone won it in the end? :)00:10
Aleksandyrdaniels: whew.00:10
hubthe ARM architecture works indifferently in big endian (be) and little endian (el).00:11
c0ffeehum hum00:11
danielshub: right, but the port name is armeb00:11
Aleksandyrdwd: When do you think we'll see RFC1149 support on the device?00:11
dwdMilhouse: Nobody will. This is a tactic by Nokia to get a surge in development of free third party apps to bolster their sales.00:11
hubjust that this byte order is define by the ship00:11
danielshub: armeb : armel :: armbe : armle00:11
c0ffeedoes somebody know whether the NICI client will be released as source soon00:11
c0ffeeor is it worth the effort to push video for another client?00:11
kenderAleksandyr, what about the zenity port? so hard?00:11
danielsMilhouse: publishing it seems a bit harsh.  'look at all these other people who got one, and you didn't! ha ha!'00:11
c0ffeesince the windows NICI looks very GPLish00:11
hubor board00:11
dwdAleksandyr: With or without RFC2549?00:11
Milhousedwd: or alternatively, freeze n800 development while all the developers wait around for their subsidised N800's that are never going to come00:12
MilhouseIt's all a scam I tell you!00:12
Aleksandyrdwd: I think we can delay RFC2549 support until RFC1149 industry uptake reaches significant levels.00:12
pokute_Did anyone ask the most important question on iPhone - Does it play Oggs?00:12
Milhouseyes, and XviD and DivX00:12
Aleksandyrkender: I'm still working on it, but it looks ugly and won't compile cleanly. I may just write something similar from scratch instead.00:12
kenderAleksandyr, :)00:13
Aleksandyrkender: obviously whatever I put together will be fairly compatible if not entirely compatible with zenity, plus or minus hildon widgets.00:13
kenderAleksandyr, agree00:13
Aleksandyrkender: furthermore, there's a zenity in the rootstrap 0.o00:13
MilhouseI can just see the fallout after the iPhone is released: everyone uses it to listen to audio and/or watch video, they take a phone call and the device dies - "Low Battery!"00:14
Milhousesuspect the iPhone will be a classic compromise in the end00:14
kenderAleksandyr, url?00:15
dwdAleksandyr: I just want the 770 to comply with all the SHOULDs in RFC1122.00:15
Aleksandyrkender: fire up scratchbox and run zenity.00:15
kenderAleksandyr, one second00:15
dwdAleksandyr: Specifically, the last one in section 3.500:15
kender[sbox-SDK_PC: ~] > zenity00:15
kenderbash: zenity: command not found00:15
kendernot for me00:16
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Aleksandyrkender: erm, I sure as heck couldn't get my compiled version to work ;)00:16
Aleksandyrdwd: Hah.00:16
dwdMilhouse: This is another reason why I like the 770 taking the smart out of phone. If the 770 dies, it's not a major problem. If my phone dies, that's really bad news.00:16
dwdAleksandyr: That one is less well known.00:17
Aleksandyrdwd: Yes, and I will now steal it. ;)00:17
lleI hope the iPhone will be really good. Not that I'd personally necessarily want to buy it, but the mobile phone industry needs a good solid kick to remember to focus on the actual end-user, instead of questionable business plans for operators.00:17
* Aleksandyr wonders if he accidentally got zenity working when he wasn't paying attention.00:17
MilhouseI can see people bitching about the battery life on the iPhone once they start using all it's functions and are away from a power socket for more than 12 hours00:17
dwdAleksandyr: If you're ever buying routers, tell the salesman you require full conformance to RFC1122, and ask him to demonstrate.00:17
MilhouseI guess it will only lead to a surge in the sale of USB powered docks for people to have at work...00:17
Aleksandyrdwd: being as I work for 3COM (at the moment), there are more subtle applications to the joke ;)00:18
dwdAleksandyr: Oh, what fun!00:18
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VReMilhouse: There was something about separate battery for phone and ipod00:18
kenderAleksandyr, If you don't want, don't port it, I'll buy a N800 and I'll port it myself.....(look this phrase in the good way...with no bad intentions)00:18
kenderAleksandyr, and...sorry my english00:19
Milhouseseperate batter? that means you have to carry an extra battery and swap it over (resetting the device)... not ideal, really00:19
kenderI can't say what I want exactly, nor understard you correctly00:19
Aleksandyrkender, I very much want to port it, it's just not nearly as easy as it ought to be, and it won't work as well as it should, and it's simple enough that I should just write it properly using hildon widgets ;)00:19
kenderAleksandyr, nice, I can understand it :)00:19
AleksandyrI really want to know where the working version in my rootstrap came from00:19
kenderAleksandyr, I didn't understand you last time00:20
kendernow yes00:20
kendersee you00:21
MilhouseI bet this costs Apple a pretty penny:
espowhat will the nokia n800 cost?00:21
Milhouse$400/399 EUR/£26900:21
||cwsame as the 770 did, right?00:22
Milhouseslightly more expensive00:22
espoohh okay so i have to get some money away :))00:22
Aleksandyr$400 before US sales taxes / 399 EUR with sales taxes.00:22
||cwah, $50 more00:22
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konttoriBy the way, considering how fast the video is on N800, why is flash video (like youtube) so slow on N800? Just poor implementation or some serios bottleneck somewhere that can't be fixed easily?00:24
JaffaNaive implementation by Adobe, would be my guess.00:24
bstockman flash sucks. someone needs to write a better open-source version00:24
espohmm maybe some java hacking is then possible on the nokia n800 :)00:25
AleksandyrI would put money on Adobe using software decoding.00:25
Aleksandyrbstock: there are...several projects working on that. I want to say three. They all suck worse :D00:25
Aleksandyrbstock: www.osflash.org00:25
Aleksandyrmost open source flash deals with generating the flash, not playing it.00:26
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bstockyeah and since they added video support it's probably even worse00:26
Aleksandyr is actually promising. GStreamer-based.00:26
bstockit just sucks, especially for the linux community, that we always have to wait on adobe00:26
Aleksandyrbstock: don't get me started on flash video please :D00:27
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livingtmcan you guys help me out with a stupid 770 question?00:27
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dwdlivingtm: If we can.00:27
Jaffalivingtm: it's better to ask, rather than ask about asking00:27
livingtmI can swear the browser used to load images by default. Now it doesnt seem to00:27
livingtmJaffa, sorry :-)00:27
shaprFlash just sucks. I hope SVG and SMIL beat it.00:28
c0ffeelivingtm, already in 2006 you had to enable that00:28
danielskonttori: flash is specified to be pixel-perfect, which means that it can't use any hardware acceleration, including for video colourspace conversion00:28
c0ffeelivingtm, the default is to display cached images only00:28
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livingtmI have to click on each image and tell it to load00:28
danielskonttori: this is why the alternative implementations actually break things00:28
livingtmwheres the setting?00:28
c0ffeein the menu00:28
danielskonttori: and why the adobe one doesn't use any acceleration, but rasterises everything itself00:28
konttoriI wonder how hard it would be to make a plugin for opera that would allow opening the flash video files in mplayer on click.00:28
c0ffeedont have my 770 handy right now, sorry00:28
dwdlivingtm: View->Show Images->Always00:28
Aleksandyrkonttori: supposedly this has already been done, but I've yet to find a real reference on it00:28
shaprkonttori: Sorenson codec is not available.00:29
shaprWhat's it, called, VP4?00:29
livingtmah thanks.. dont know why i couldnt find that before00:29
dwdlivingtm: Took me a couple of goes to find it too.00:29
konttoriI thought sorenson was available for mplayer00:29
* shapr checks00:29
livingtmI want a mythtv front end for the 770... is anyone doing that? :-)00:30
Jaffalivingtm: Freevo's more likely now I've switched back to that.00:30
Aleksandyrlivingtm: I gave up on Myth ages ago. recent mplayer builds handle NuppleVideo.00:30
konttori looks like sorenson is supporter00:30
AleksandyrI've yet to hear of any decent video library streaming solutions for the 770, which is why I keep thinking about hacking one together.00:30
livingtmI was having a fair amountof luck using the mythweb extension00:30
livingtmbut you have to encode to something the 770 can render00:31
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livingtmfast enough00:31
livingtmanyhow, thanks a bunch00:31
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suihkulokkiwhat's the easiest way to split a divx avi into two files?00:31
Aleksandyrerm, anyone know if Cairo is available/works decently as a rendering API on the 770?00:32
konttoriAleksandyr: are you thinking about UPnp video streaming?00:32
shaprkonttori: I think it's Sorenson 4 that's missing.00:32
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Aleksandyrkonttori: any kind of video streaming, really.00:32
shaprkonttori: It's whatever video format is only found in Flash 8, but not in Flash 7.00:32
Aleksandyrkonttori: I'd like orb to work, and work perfectly.00:32
konttorishapr: ahh.. ok. I'm pretty sure that's on the pipeline. And in the meanwhile, even flash 7 video would be better than none00:33
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konttoriAleksandyr: Very good idea. Is it possible to stream to mplayer through orb?00:33
Aleksandyrkonttori: yes, but with a lot of copy+pasting of links.00:34
konttoriThat would be my first starting point to check00:34
AleksandyrI mean, I -can- stream video, I simply have to carry quite a bit myself.00:34
konttoriAleksandyr: so, perhaps some script and small plugin to opera?00:34
Aleksandyraaaand cairo needs an FPU. Drat.00:34
konttoriIf you are up to it, I'm sure people would be very pleased00:34
Aleksandyrkonttori: as of right now I've yet to hear of a successful user-written opera plugin for maemo.00:34
danielsAleksandyr: er, doesn't need an fpu00:34
Aleksandyrkonttori: or, I would write it.00:35
danielsAleksandyr: carl had it going on the 770, and there's been a lot of optimisation work around that00:35
Aleksandyrdaniels: s/need/basically requires the presence of for reasonable performance/00:35
ntrsI need Java applets support for N800.00:35
Aleksandyrdaniels: ooooh.00:35
Aleksandyrdaniels: where can I find this?00:35
konttoriI wonder if guys @ nokia could help on the plugin.00:35
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danielsAleksandyr: just in standard upstream cairo00:36
Aleksandyrdaniels: well then, let's see what swfdec can do :D ty00:36
timelessntrs: got a million dollars?00:36
ntrstimeless, hehe, no. I need it for free or included with the next update from nokia. I doubt it will cost $1 mil anyway.00:37
timelessntrs: i suspect it'll cost more00:37
timelessand you're welcome to dream, however until i seee your million, i don't think i'd hold my breath00:37
ntrstimeless, well that should be pocket change for nokia.00:37
JaffaAleksandyr: isn't Opera supposed to support the old Netscape plugin API? Not that I've ever used it, so that still might be tricky00:38
AleksandyrJaffa: yes, through the existence of an Opera plugin that handles translations and does not seem to be present on the 77000:38
ntrsI mean seriously. What kind of an internet applicance/tablet N800 is if it does not support Java applets. They are pretty much everywhere on the web.00:39
timelessunfortunately, the opera on the 770 is hacked00:39
timelessit's npapi, yes00:39
timelessbut it isn't compatible w/ standrd npapi00:39
konttoriopera 9 has the netscape api. opera 8 doesn't00:39
Aleksandyrntrs: erm, I've yet to find a java applet I needed to run on my 770 in two years.00:39
timelessthis is nokia's fault00:39
lleblame nokiaaa...00:39
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konttoripoker sites need java. that's a nice market for internet tablets00:39
bstockis there a repo for cairo? it not on application catalog00:39
timelessi think the minimo system probably offers cairo00:40
Aleksandyrit's nokia's fault for releasing the 770. If nokia hadn't released the 770, I wouldn't be in here: I'd be out at a bar socializing :P00:40
timelesssince modern gecko rquires it00:40
bstockwait nm, it's not cairo i wanted, it was canola00:41
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timelessindt has canola00:41
Takquite a difference there00:41
* Jaffa doesn't want Java GUIs, but phoneME for the wealth of apps (I've realised) and J2SE for thick client development and general playage.00:42
bstockheh yeah00:42
* Aleksandyr really wants PhoneME for GMail Mobile and Yahoo! Go.00:42
JaffaAleksandyr: btw, did you try sending me that classpath build stuff? If so, I never got it :-( anon ftp might be easier00:42
AleksandyrJaffa: erm, I did anon ftp it00:43
Jaffaah ok00:43
JaffaI'll check the folder :)00:43
JaffaTa muchly :)00:43
JaffaGot it :)00:43
AleksandyrI probably should have done a make clean before sending ;)00:43
JaffaAh well. Theoretically, dpkg-buildpackage in scratchbox should work?00:44
AleksandyrJaffa: Better than theoretically.00:44
AleksandyrJaffa: caveat: you'll need jikes installed in your host apps.00:44
JaffaAleksandyr: excellent. Does it have any build depen... ok.00:44
bstocki noticed there's different repos for canola if running mistral vs. scirocco, does scirocco have better performance for canola?00:45
* Jaffa is all excited about Maemo after watching the iPhone launch. See what's possible, now?00:45
glass_using iphone as a crappy bt edge modem year from now?00:46
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* Aleksandyr worries when he needs to add a "#include <sys/time.h>" in order to get an application to compile.00:47
* Jaffa meant in terms of UI. The iPhone in no way meets my requirements: I'd hoped for a small, decent UI phone00:47
Takouch @ time.h00:48
JaffaAleksandyr: is just jikes enough to build classpath or does it need a class library to boot strap from?00:50
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dannymAleksandyr: depends on the un*x version :)00:51
* konttori is so with jaffa on the small phone aspect. And even more on the Learn from apple issue. 00:51
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Aleksandyrdannym: trust me, I have reason for alarm.00:52
AleksandyrJaffa: just jikes, IIRC.00:52
dannymAleksandyr: but basically you need sys/time.h when you use any "newer" time functions (i.e. with better than 1 second resolution)00:52
Aleksandyrdannym: this was for select().00:52
dannymAleksandyr: ah? why...00:52
Aleksandyrdannym: for a large and complicated program that I can't begin to understand ;)00:52
dannymAleksandyr: oh, yeah... select has a sub-second-resolution timeout ;)00:53
Aleksandyrgstreamer + i386 rootstrap = forget about it, build and deploy on the device?00:53
Aleksandyrbuild in SDK_ARMEL, deploy to test, rather.00:54
TakI always deploy to test anyway00:55
Takrunning in scratchbox+xephyr only gives (me) the vaguest idea whether/how something will actually run on the device00:55
JaffaTak: indeed.00:56
JaffaWhich is what worries me about supporting the other of N770/N80000:56
AleksandyrTak: I'm working on a total shot-in-the-dark that, if it works, will make me a hero. Therefore, it probably won't work, and I'd rather trash my scratchbox than much about with my device ;)00:56
* Tak shrugs00:56
bstockhwowcome when i install an app i always get '/bin/sh: /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure: not found00:57
TakJaffa: yeah, exactly00:57
danielsbstock: because apt wasn't properly hacked.  don't worry, it's not a problem.00:57
bstockok, yeah it always seemed to work fine just curious is all00:57
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dwdJaffa: I took a look at your video converter script, and it must work, because I'm now engrossed in watching The Incredibles.00:58
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Jaffadwd: heh :)00:59
* dwd reads back.00:59
dwdJaffa: And yes, I test on the device too - Telomer runs very quick indeed on a dual Opteron, it's not quite as quick on the 770 itself.01:00
konttorican telomer support split screen where the list is on the upper part and message preview below?01:05
konttorifrom this I got the impression it's list separate, message separate window / view01:06
dwdkonttori: Not now. It uses a different window for view and summary.01:06
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dwdkonttori: I just thought it'd be better for the 770 that way. No reason not to have an option there, though.01:07
konttoriCan you use the same window, just flip the pane to view message? So that window creation / switch wouldn't be necessary01:07
bstockdidn't someone menton video encoder for 770?01:08
konttoridwd: cool. Also, then would good if preview could use different font (as you are previewing it, not reading it) and a button to view full screen / other widget for the switch01:08
konttoribstock: maybe at some point, but not for quite a while, I think01:09
dwdkonttori: Should be able to, yes. The summary and renderer are both widgets, in effect, not top level windows. Minor tweak to change font sizes.01:09
dwdbstock: I mentioned Jaffa's script. somewhere.01:09
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konttoridwd: would be great. I loved it on sylpheed for it 200501:09
dwdkonttori: I do it on Polymer - in fact, there's no seperate view at all, just the preview.01:10
konttoriyou can get media converter here (1.21 latest)
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konttoridwd: ahh... great!01:10
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bstockhmm that vidconvert is pretty cool. do you know if the source is posted?01:11
konttoriapple keynote is available for viewing:
bstocknm think i found it on the site01:12
bstockwow that didn't take them too long to post it01:12
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dwdkonttori: Feel free to give me a patch. Or log a bug. Otherwise the chances are I won't remember.01:13
Jaffabstock: The main script is at
konttoridwd: I'll kep that in mind. Probably won't have the time to make a patch (getting to know the source code takes time)01:14
JaffaThe source for the queue system and stuff is available to people if they're going to improve it - ask me for details01:14
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c0ffeeah, xephyr finally compiled01:15
c0ffeenow see whether it actually works :)01:15
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bstockhey konttori, your zip file doesn't seem to be here anymore:
bstockJaffa: thanks, i found it and downloaded it for safe keeping :)01:17
Jaffabstock: my pleasure01:18
konttoriYeah, it's here:
konttoriIs there a link that point to wrong place?01:18
bstockfound that from jaffa's page01:18
JaffaAh yeah, I should update that to point to the garage project01:19
bstocki should update my site to have cool, usefull tools on it01:19
konttorijaffa: thanks01:20
bstocki do have everyone's favorite game though:
lardmanI see the docs say that the toolchain is the same for v3.0 as for v2.101:22
lardmandoes this mean that the vfp unit/acceleration is not used?01:22
lardmanor is this one of the wonders of EABI I wonder01:23
c0ffeedaniels, do you know who's responsible for the video chat thing? esp. the pc client01:24
danielsc0ffee: no, sorry01:24
c0ffeehum hum01:24
c0ffeei think it shouldn't be too hard to implement a client using existing components01:25
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c0ffeeotoh the windows client looks like somebody forced a linux client to run on windows01:25
* Jaffa beds.01:25
c0ffeeesp. one using tons of GPL components01:25
c0ffeeso I'd expect it will be released as source sooner or later and I'm not sure whether it's worth the effort01:25
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JaffaAnyone tried a touch and grab image viewer (like daniels was suggesting earlier)01:32
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revso ... iphone?01:32
JaffaWatching the iPhone demos with the grab, stretch, pinch action is very cool01:32
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JaffaUsing the select as a mode modifier would do: tap, hold, press select and drag. Has the 770 or N800 got the grunts to do it?01:33
revthat's wild01:34
revi just got home, not been able to folow the iphone devopments01:34
revmy wife scared me- she told me the res of theihpone was only 320x24001:34
revso i wrote it off ...01:35
JaffaNO, 320x480 is so much better.01:35
Jaffa o01:35
reveven though i want nothing more than a Newton 2.0 - which is why i bought the nokia 770, it is the closest thing to a newton 2.0 that you can get right now01:35
revyeah, that isn't a bad res ... i'd prefer VGA or better, naturally, but that isn't too bad01:36
revheck 320x480 is the res of the Newton 2x00. i've a clie with that res and it is pretty decent01:36
hubrev: how can the N770 be a Newton, it does not even have PDA software by default?01:37
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myreni dont know where people got the 320x480 spec01:37
myrenit seems to be official01:37
revhub: well, "PDA software" is something i've never used much of on any PDA, be it the newton, CE, Linux, or palm OS devices01:38
revmyren: it's on the site
myrenbut jobs said 160 DPI.  a 3.5 inch screen of 16:9 resolution is 480x272, which is a fairly standard res01:38
revhub: i use PDAs as computers, not as overpriced crashworthy organizers01:38
myren320x480 is not at all widescreen01:38
revmyren: why isn't it?01:38
dannymjaebird: "touch and grab image viewer"?01:38
myrenits going to be weird developing with such extremely non square pixels01:38
revmyren: looks fullscreen on my clie01:38
hubrev: so you carry a paper organizer as well?01:38
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dannymJaffa: "touch and grab image viewer"?01:39
konttoridannym: like iphone photo viewer01:39
myren480 wide at 16:9 is 270 pixels01:39
Jaffadannym: have you seen a multitouch demo, either on the iPhone or on the larger Google videos which are floating around01:39
myrenthere's 50 extra pixels in the width01:39
revhub: no, i use the PDA functions of a PDA, but i just don't use them extensively. nor do i sync them. currently, i use my phone for PIM stuff, but the tools on the 770 i have installed are fine too01:40
myrenthe screen has long long pixels01:40
myrenthats going to be frapping bizarree01:40
myrento code for properly01:40
dannymJaffa: no, have an URL?01:40
Jaffadannym: and click on "Photos"01:40
revhub: basically, i use PDAs as my computer... at various points in the last 10 years a PDA has been my primary computer (Newton 2x00, Sigmarion 3, Jornada 720, Zaurus C760)01:40
hubrev: how can I have a calendar and an agenda with the *default* software on the N770 :-)01:41
myreni wish the jouranda had survived past infancy01:41
myrenthat would've been a cool computer form factor01:41
Jaffahub: why does it need to be default software?01:41
hubfor computer I just have a thinkpad01:41
hubJaffa: why shouldn't it be?01:41
revhub: umm, there isn't *default* software ... but why not just install one of the PIM packages?01:41
Jaffahub: cost/flexibility etc.01:41
hubrev: what do you think I did?01:41
revhub: it takes all of 30 seconds01:41
JaffaNow, I'm not saying the PIM suites we've got aren't perfect, but still.01:41
revhub: i just don't follow the objection...01:41
AleksandyrI would argue they're a far far cry from perfection.01:42
AleksandyrI also have no use for a PIM.01:42
Jaffadannym: This is *very* cool
hubrev: not when you have to restore ALL the package sources after flashing01:42
revhub: i'm sure for hardcore PIM users the nokia 770's PIM tools aren't good enough, but for me, I rarely use a PIM01:42
hubPIM = address book + agenda01:42
JaffaAleksandyr: indeed, hopefully the iPhone will *really* get people thinking about how to get things looking and acting more intuitively/impressively.01:42
hubwe have a mailer and an IM program, so address book is almost there01:42
revJaffa: the newton did that pretty well01:43
AleksandyrI'm actually very unhappy with the state of IM on the 770.01:43
Jaffarev: So I hear01:43
revJaffa: also, i've done some work with more intuitive gestures for touchscreen interaction using various PDAs, including the 77001:43
JaffaI liked the Psion stuff, but still - nowhere near as good as things *could* be.01:43
Jaffarev: any links?01:43
revJaffa: there is a gesture system for the programming language I use, and i've implemented a bunch of gestures of various usefulness, some of which stolen right from the newton01:44
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revJaffa: the wiki i had up is down now, i've yet to recreate it.  but the gesture recog system itself is called Genie -
myrenyou know, watching the insane surge of activity in here, i have to wonder what other irc channels i've abandoned that have flooded back to life for whatever surve in time.01:45
revJaffa: though that is a technical page ... this is a little better01:45
myrenrev: fricking figues its by smalltalkers.  ;)01:45
Jaffarev: Smalltalk's great, but not exactly iPhone-like purty ;-)01:45
revJaffa: but my work is in *using* the Genie system, I didn't write Genie01:45
revJaffa: why not? it's just a matter of how you do it- just like on the iphone01:46
Jaffarev: I suppose, I've just *never* seen anything in Smalltalk which didn't look like the original Xerox PARC environments01:46
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revJaffa: yeah, smalltalk looks a lot different now. basically, it can look like anything.01:46
revfor example01:46
revJaffa: this is what my squeak image looked like a few years ago -
revJaffa: i could take a screenshot again, but it looks nicer now, antialiased fonts for one01:47
JaffaAh, good :)01:47
revJaffa: see the screenshots here:
revJaffa: those are old screenshots of a couple of teh PIM apps I wrote for Squeak ... my cross-platform (including Linux and the 770) PDA operating environment written in Squeak is called Dynapad.01:48
JaffaAh yeah, I remember reading about it before. Sounds cool.01:48
revJaffa: another old app i wrote, a benchmarking suite:
revJaffa: my dev environment in squeak now:
revJaffa: though that's not what it looks like on my 770, that's just my dev image01:50
revyou can just use any ol' IceWM theme01:51
revi used to use squeak basically as my OS01:51
revi'm starting to again, actually ... the only thing i could never get *inside* squeak itself was a real web browser01:52
revbut i have that problem now- i can x11 firefox to display into squeak01:52
revi just want to implement some ion-like tile window management into squeak before i switch back to squeak as my GUI01:52
revit might be sacrelige, but if and when i get an iphone i'll be running squeak on it as well :D01:53
c0ffeenext application to m-d01:56
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Aleksandyrnow that I volunteered to get cups working, it strikes me that I don't have a single working printer in the house and haven't for three years :D01:57
Jaffac0ffee: good grief01:57
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ntrsAleksandyr, can you make java applets work on the n800 instead? Now that you are not working on cups? :)01:58
Aleksandyrntrs: I'm still going to get CUPS working, I merely have to fix a printer.01:59
Aleksandyrntrs: I have MULTIPLE semi-working printers :D01:59
AleksandyrIAS I'm not going to write anything for the N800. I'll port what I've done if it's not too hard, but not owning an N800 means I'd rather focus on making the apps I use on my 770 better ;)02:00
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* konttori tries to get some sleep02:02
c0ffeegood plan02:02
c0ffeeme too02:02
danielsaha! finally found it:
dannymJaffa: since my flash is broken, I watched , but I think I get what you mean02:03
hubdaniels: can't view that on my 77002:03
danielsit's not quite multitouch as i remember, but still incredible :)02:03
danielshub: c'est la vie02:03
hubc'est flash02:03
hubflash ca pue02:04
hub(sorry for the french)02:04
dannymJaffa: it's kinda like those multi-mouse setups with gimp02:04
Jaffadaniels: very cool02:04
Aleksandyrquick question: anyone know how to get touchscreen pressure data in Python?02:04
Jaffahub: use VidConvert:
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danielsAleksandyr: there's no way to do it for os2006, but for os2007, you can use the gtk extension events stuff02:05
Jaffadannym: yeah, that's it.02:06
lledaniels: sure you can get it02:06
lledaniels: even on 200602:06
c0ffeeyou can get it from /dev/event02:06
danielslle: oh, you wrote python bindings for xsp?02:06
c0ffeei did that once02:06
danielschrist man, please don't be recommending that to people02:06
llepeople have the right to know!02:07
Aleksandyrdaniels: that was the absolute worst possible answer you could have given me, even if it is true ;)02:07
Aleksandyrlle: links?02:07
danielslle: that is a horror show, dude!02:07
Aleksandyrall I can find is a C example, which I could adapt, but it would take longer :D02:07
lleAleksandyr: for what? python bindings? they don't exist!02:07
danielsand it'll end in a world of pain on n800, since we filter the ts events quite heavily in the x server02:08
danielsso you'll end up with a rather jittery stream02:08
danielsand lots of inaccurate presses02:08
c0ffeethe pressure data on the 770 was far from usable02:08
Aleksandyrlle: a pythonic method of doing it, I eant02:08
Aleksandyrlle: I misread you earlier. No worries, you've given me the ammo I need02:08
lleAleksandyr: I don't do python02:08
Aleksandyrlle: see previous statement :D thanks.02:08
danielsc0ffee: in bora, it just comes to you with gtk extension events, which are enabled by default if you have -51 instead of -4702:08
lleAleksandyr: ok :)02:09
danielsc0ffee: so you just do event.pressure, and bam, it's there02:09
Jaffadaniels: how discrete is it?02:09
c0ffeethat's a nice proggie for debugging evdev02:09
c0ffeecompiles w/o probs in scratchbox02:09
lledaniels: I find your lack of faith in people's ability to use raw event data distressing02:10
c0ffeedaniels, i didn't do much with 2.x since I had my shoulder operated, married, changed job etc last year02:10
danielslle: dude, do you have any idea how awful the events are in n800?02:10
c0ffeedaniels, my maemo knowledge is a bit archaic :)02:10
danielslle: we always keep a four-sample queue, and throw away any set of four samples that move less than 4px in both directions, since it's so jittery02:11
lledaniels: I heard there were some issues, didn't know it's quite so bad02:11
danielslle: we throw away the first 3 or so thumb events, since they're going to a) include a pen event, and b) be wildly inaccurate (before this, pressing y on the finger keyboard would press backspace quite reliably)02:11
danielslle: and then you get a pen event when you're lifting your thumb up as well02:11
danielslle: yeah, it's pretty horrible02:11
danielslle: bet you're glad you got rid of x ;)02:11
lledaniels: haha, well... I don't miss it too often ;D02:12
AleksandyrI'm attempting a program that's been requested two or three times, and will rely on subtle events, so yeah, this still sounds ok ;)02:12
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lledaniels: but that touchscreen thing sounds sad, it was not trivial for 770 either, but after a lot of different strategies I found something that wasn't too far from being minimally useful02:13
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danielslle: yeah, this one works, it's just pretty nasty02:14
lledaniels: I noticed while using the sketch that it was (IMHO) not quite as responsive as it used to... or maybe I just don't remember how bad it was ;)02:14
danielslle: yeah, it lags a bit, eh02:15
Aleksandyrc0ffee: I seem to lack a /dev/event...02:15
danielslle: unfortunately the alternative was having web pages spasm uncontrollably if you held the stylus down on a scrollbar02:15
danielsAleksandyr: /dev/input/event*, usually event202:15
Aleksandyrdaniels: ah. Thanks!02:16
c0ffeeso, but now i'm really off :)02:16
myreni swear i remember you from an old guild on efnet02:18
myrenbut there may and probably are other c0ffees02:18
myrennone the less, makes me smile.  :)02:19
daniels   /last youtube02:20
myrenyoutube channel?  bleh02:20
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lledaniels: fucking aye this freenode policy with non-registered users02:23
danielslle: you don't say.  freenode ftl.02:23
Aleksandyrman, your /last youtube must be much more entertaining than mine02:23
lleand I'm even registered, just no idea about the password02:24
lleand too lazy to do anything about it, other than bitch02:24
dannymJaffa: the MPX X server seems to already support multiple independent pointing devices, and I don't see much else that's required to have that stuff02:24
danielslle: start oftc #maemo02:25
dannymJaffa: and MPX has been merged into main X02:25
danielsdannym: all that's left is to merge it02:25
danielsdannym: er, not yet, it's still on a branch02:25
dannymoh? really?02:25
danielsdannym: there's a few cleanups left to do, and it'll likely be done as part of xinput 2, rather than a separate extension02:25
danielsit's pretty close though, i'm quite happy with it as it stands now except for a few minor niggles02:25
Jaffadannym: very cool. I imagine the h/w support for a touchscreen is a bit tricky, though02:25
danielsJaffa: indeed02:26
JaffaSomething the SOC OMAPs won't do any time soon02:26
danielswell, the touchscreen is separate from the omap02:27
JaffaIs it? I thought the ts controller was on the chip.02:28
danielsnope, it's separate (tsc2301 on the n800)02:28
lleseparate but of the same quality02:30
lle-> bedtime02:30
dannymah, sleep... good idea :)02:31
dannymgood night :)02:31
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Aleksandyrnote to self: hooking evtest up to a Razer running at 2000dpi and 1000hz polling is like attaching a firehose to your xterm.02:32
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* Jaffa *really* must go to bed.02:33
JaffaRight. Firefox is closed, there are no more temptations.02:33
danielseditor's still open here02:33
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gpdjust trying out my thumb board -- can't seem to figure out how to change the suggested word to a different one?04:08
gpdor do you just keep tapping until you can tap on the word that you want?04:09
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gpdin the small keyboard it gives you several word options - but the large one it seems to stick with one choice - i have tried most keys and buttons04:10
* gpd installs gizmo project04:15
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gpdjust made my first phone call on a N800 using gizmo -- very cool indeed -- screw those apple guys - no monthy fee -- free call!04:32
* pahartik likes SIP04:33
rabelaiswait...does the n800 have the telepathy-sip framework in it? I thought that wasn't done yet04:35
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pahartikgpd: Gizmo (application) is tied up to that single SIP registrar though... that is not so nice04:36
gpdpahartik: what would you suggest instead?04:37
rabelaishow about being able to tie into any SIP my own voip network for instance...04:39
jtokash2has there really been no treo yet with wifi?04:41
jtokash2That's crazy04:41
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pahartikgpd: I do not know of "untied" SIP applications that currently work on Maemo...04:42
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myrenwhat the fuck is wrong with denver04:50
myrenwe never get any hardware god damn it04:50
myreni want a bloody fucking N80004:50
myrenthis stupid city got four demo units, one for each compusa, and every single one of them has already been stolen04:51
danielssorry, but that is somewhat comic04:51
pahartikgpd: I did manage to establish SIP voice call between "sofsip_cli" on Maemo and "twinkle" on Debian... that is not real solution, but at least I know now where microphone is located04:51
myrenwait i didnt make myself clear04:51
myrenthis city got four units in total04:51
myrenand every single one was allocated as a demo unit04:51
myrenAND every single one got stolen04:52
pahartikmyren: "city where stolen items generally come from"04:53
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MilhouseHey, at least the N800 is popular with thieves!04:59
MilhouseDidn't any of the thieves throw it back as they legged it out of the shop shouting "WTF dude? It hasn't got a hard case!"05:00
MilhouseThe standard of vilians in Denver has reached a new low.05:00
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user_Anyone get maemo mapper running on n800 by chance  ? :)05:22
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dieguito-zzzmyren: that's funny... I also want a bloody n800, let's share our pain05:28
gpdI have an N800 - feel free to hate me :)05:28
gpdor live vicariously through me... your choice05:29
dieguito-zzzframerate|n800: I assume you too05:32
framerate|n800Got mine sunday05:32
dieguito-zzzvia developer program?05:33
framerate|n800On xchat on it now05:33
* gpd wonders why the thumb pad is flashing blue whilst in normal mode05:33
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* framerate|n800 doesnt understand either05:34
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dieguito-zzzhah! you'll loose battery power!05:35
gpdframerate|n800: have you taken your screen protector off yet ;)05:35
gpdoh - maybe 'cos i set 'show led lights' in display05:36
alpso, i packaged up my webkit gdk port, -- i could do with a tester if anyone has the non-devel firmware around and some cycles to burn, /msg me05:36
hubalp: can it run on a plain linux?05:36
alphub: sure, but i guess there's not much point. i'm working on the port so mono gtk# programs that embed mozilla can work properly on the 77005:37
framerate|n800Man I really want maemo mapper :(05:37
gpdframerate|n800: what progress since last night?05:38
gpddid you install gizmoproject?05:38
framerate|n800Nope, may wait for skype05:38
* framerate|n800 hides05:38
gpddid you try mediastreamer?05:39
framerate|n800Negative. Actually my os got screwed with corrupt sd card05:40
framerate|n800Had to wipe05:40
hubalp: btw the point of having it run on plain linux is to ditch mozilla everywhere you can05:40
alphub: oh, i actually got the idea of doing webkit/mono integration from a blog of yours05:41
hubusing it on nokia is the other idea with that :-)05:42
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alpthe package also includes a build of cairo git head with less-float enabled, though all shared objects are kept in a private prefix for sanity05:47
alpit does work rather well, quite snappy05:47
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gpdi see is only server mentioned for use with n800 mediastreamer - do we know if gmediaserver on linux will work?06:04
gpdwell i installed gmediaserver on ubuntu and it looks like it serves /usr/share/sounds - started it - but no sign on n80006:06
dieguito-zzzgpd: I thought that DAAP shares work out of the box in the nokia things06:06
gpddaap shares like?06:06
dieguito-zzzrhythmbox? banshee?06:07
dieguito-zzzat least I understood that time ago06:07
* gpd tries06:07
dieguito-zzzrhythmbox > edit > prefs > share06:07
gpdno sign of it -- am i doing this right -- i have a desktop running ubuntu that is plugged into the same router that is providing wifi to the n800 - ie same subnet.06:09
gpdthe mediastreamer says 'searching for new devices' -- which to me implies funky hardware stuff06:09
gpdbut the simplecenter counters that thought06:10
gpdUnable to notify network of music sharing: The avahi MDNS service is not running <<-- ok06:10
* gpd installs avahi-daemon06:10
gpdnope - still errors - must be the ndns stuff06:12
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NickDevery nice06:14
NickDejust had my day at ces at the nokia tent06:14
gpdwas there a frenzy of interest?06:15
NickDetalked to the project manager a developer etc.. very cool stuff on the way .. I like the PC video conference client06:15
NickDegpd: oh dude it was great06:15
gpd[or was the apple stealing the show]06:15
NickDeevery nokia person had an n800. they were giving demos etc.06:15
NickDeApple's offering is iffy.. 500 bucks + 2 year lock in with cingular... I dont think so06:15
NickDelower res screen06:15
gpdnevermind that -- carrying a giant thing around wehn you only want a phone? forgetaboutit06:15
NickDeNokia and IPhone are 2 different devices06:16
dieguito-zzzthat's right06:16
NickDeand the iphone you cant even install/removce software06:16
NickDeits total lock in/ lock out06:16
dieguito-zzzNickDe: really? that sucks06:16
NickDebut of course every mac user will buy one.. fine..06:16
gpdmeanwhile - i am stuck trying to install random avahi stuff to get mediaserver to work ;)06:17
dieguito-zzzgpd: install every avahi* package06:17
dieguito-zzzand of course start them06:17
NickDedieguito-zzz: at I see a lot of iphone threads.. personally I dont follow the corporate sheep like Apple.. I have no loyalty to any company.. if Nokia screwed up the n800 I'd go somewhere else.. but Apple puts a show and delivers an expensive dumb little toy that all their sheep will buy...06:17
dieguito-zzzavahi-browser might prove itself useful06:17
gpdach avahi-browser <-- nothing06:18
dieguito-zzzavahi-utils is the package06:18
NickDeNokia is doing great..the N800 is great. I watched 2 movies on it on my 5 hour flight to vegas.. great stuff06:18
dieguito-zzzNickDe: please stop that or I will have to kill you and get your n80006:19
dieguito-zzzit's published as "iTunes Audio Access" or something like that06:19
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NickDedieguito-zzz: :)06:22
NickDeso I have 2 more full days of CES.. should be fun.06:23
dieguito-zzzyou bet06:23
MilhouseI heard they were giving out free N800s at CES06:24
MilhouseNick - _please_ see if you can find out if the N95 GPS can be used with the N800 (or any other device) over BT, thanks! :)06:25
bjvhm, the left bar is blank, the text appears for the keyboard, but they key texture is not there..06:37
bjvswitching themes just now, still all white06:38
bjvanyone ever experienced that?06:39
bjvalready reset the thing, a minute ago.06:39
bstockthe only thing i've seen is when installing an app or changing themes06:40
bstocksometimes my desktop goes white06:40
bstockbut a reset usually fixes it06:40
bjvit's the gui elements that are just blank white fields, scrollbars, menus,06:40
bjvdesktop and the top task bar are fine, all text is there. :\06:41
bjvoh, duh it's all on flash06:43
bjvof course there arent going to be any logs. :\06:43
bstockif you make a directory called core-dumps on the mem card it will record the core dumps when an application crashed to that directory06:43
bstockthat may help06:44
MilhouseAnyone tried an SDHC card with the N800 yet?06:44
bstockif you send me $399, I'll be happy to go out, purchase one, buy MY OWN SD card and try it out for ya06:46
MilhouseNice try :)06:48
MilhouseTrying to build up a list of working 4GB+ cards on ITT - nobody has posted details for an SDHC card yet, got confirmation of two working SD 4GB cards06:49
bstockis 4gb the largest availabe nowadays?06:49
MilhousePretty much06:49
* bjv almost bought a 1gb mmc mobile last week06:49
Milhouse8GB may be available in very limited quantities06:49
Milhouse4GB is available as both SD and SDHC06:50
bjvhow much does 4 gigs in the full sized cost?06:50
bstocklast time i went shopping for one was for my M3 player for my DS.. 1gb was plenty large enough for what i needed06:50
Milhouse4GB SD definately seems to work, not sure about 4GB SDHC06:50
Milhouse4GB is about £65 in UK06:50
MilhouseProbably much less in the US06:50
Milhouse1GB fills way too quick :)06:51
bstocknot so quick when the only thing you put on it is nintendo DS roms.. most ~16-32MB06:51
MilhouseI should get them shipped over - $54 is about £30, half the UK price :(06:52
bstockdo you know if newegg ships to uk?06:52
Milhousecould ask a friend to pop several into an envelope :)06:52
bstockhere in the US newegg is the cheapest site06:53
Milhousei'd get a friend in the US to buy them and send them to the UK in an envelope!06:53
bstockyeah, prob be cheaper that way even if newegg would ship it to ya06:53
Milhouseif newegg shipped it, it would be stopped by customs06:54
Milhouseand i'd have to pay import tag @ 17.5%06:54
bstockwow that sucks.. i don't ship international much.06:55
bstockcompany i work for have a plant in china and its a bitch to ship there06:55
Milhousei used to buy the occasional game or console from lik sang (rip)06:55
bstockespecially computer equipment, they need serial numbers of everything we're sending.. even custom-built servers, that don't have serial numbers so we have to make some up06:56
Milhouse50/50 chance whether I got charged import tax or not06:56
Milhousei worked for an investment bank once, we had to ship a SUN server to Singapore and customs stopped it, inspected it and pulled out a processor with it's massive heatsink still attached before sending it on it's way. Insides were a bit of a mess when it arrived having had the CPU + heatsink bouncing around inside while it traversed the globe. Bastards wouldn't accept responsibility either.06:58
bstockman what a bitch. that must have been fun06:58
MilhouseWe had to send it back from Singapore to London (it failed to work, funnily enough) - I had the CPU+heatsink on my desk for a couple of years.06:58
MilhouseAt the time, the CPU+heatsink alone was worth about $3,000!06:59
MilhouseHappy days...06:59
shaprbstock: suck06:59
shaprthat you have to make up serial numbers.07:00
bstockheh yeah07:00
bstockactually, a lot of times we just use the serial numbers from the motherboard in the server07:00
shaprI've had to deal with that sort of admin bullshit before, it's no fun.07:00
shaprhm, sensible.07:00
bmidgleythat's good to know not all 4gb are hd07:00
MilhouseIf anyone has any 4GB+ SD[HC] card details please post here:
bmidgleyit's probably not easy to tell the difference when shopping online eh?07:01
Milhousenon-working cards would be useful to know too07:01
shaprThey should say SDHC or SD2.0, since they're the same thing.07:01
bstockso i was at Borders Books the other day and saw a demo of this thing
bstockit looked pretty cool, uses epaper so very little power and actually looks like paper.. unfortunatly it's DRM'd to hell07:03
bstock'choose from thousands of titles'.. that you have to pay $10 a pop from the sony store. man i hate sony07:04
shaprSony hates you too, don't worry ;-)07:04
shaprOtherwise they wouldn't treat their customers like criminals, yeah?07:04
MilhouseStrange how they don't quote a resolution for the screen07:04
bstockpeople dumb enough to buy it don't care about the resolution i would guess07:05
bstockbut it did look pretty cool. i haven't seen an epaper texture that size before07:05
Milhousebstock: Sorry, that was just me being geeky :)07:05
bstockall they have to do is support standard pdf's... man i hate sony07:06
MilhouseI'm not really a fan of reading electronic books - prefer the old fashioned paper kind07:06
shaprI used to like PDFs, then I bought one with the latest and greatest ebook Digital *Restrictions* Management.07:07
bstockme too.. that's why i thought that it was cool. it looks like a book07:07
MilhouseBut you'd really have to be "in to" ebooks to justify the expense of a single-purpose device... otherwise it would make more sense to buy something like the N800 and use FBReader occasionally07:08
bstockbut i don't want to re-buy my books for more then i probably paid for to begin with. plus i could only pick from 'thousands' of titles. prob only the top *selling* books07:08
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shaprI've been searching for this one book for two years, and I finally found it in PDF format on ebooks.com07:08
bstockyeah i don't plan on buying it. i would really consider it if it support standard files because of the epaper format07:08
shaprSo I paid my $3207:08
bstockwow that's pricey07:08
shaprAnd then I couldn't open it on Linux, because only Acrobat Reader on Windows handles the latest restrictions standards.07:09
shaprAnd the PDF did not allow printing, and only copying of ten pages per day.07:09
bstocklol man07:09
shaprSo I asked them to either give me an unrestricted copy, or give me my money back.07:09
shaprI got my money back.07:10
bstocki had a pdf un-drm'r at one point. don't know if it'd work for the newer stuff07:10
Milhouseebooks are probably at the same state of evolution as music was 3 years ago - ebooks need someone like Apple to popularise cheap online downloads07:10
shaprbstock: I wouldn't un-restrict it if that weren't legal, I'm picky like that.07:10
Milhouse3 years ago - make that 4 or even 5 years ago07:10
shaprLucky for me, I found a hardcopy for $120 in Arizona.07:10
shaprWhich is much much better than the $600 copy in the Netherlands.07:11
bstockshapr: i figure if i paid for it when why not.. i'm not planning on uploading it anywhere07:11
bjvall this mess is still white07:11
bjvthe themes are still on the flash, the images them self07:11
shaprbstock: Yeah, but the people who sold you the PDF wouldn't agree with that interpretation.07:11
bjvre flash? :(07:11
bstockyeah. in general i don't buy it if it's drm'd07:11
shaprbstock: And I'm trying to stick with the spirit of the law, and just not fun stupid people.07:12
bstocklol i can just imagine what Vista is gonna have in store for everyone07:12
Milhouseif you'd bought the ebook and found you couldn't read it due to DRM restrictions I'd have said that removing the DRM for your *own personal* use would be totally OK in my, er, books.07:13
bmidgleydid anyone here order an n800 direct from nokia?07:13
MilhouseOrdered one for the UK on Sunday evening, should arrive Wednesday (today!)07:14
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bstockis the UK ahead or behind the US?07:15
bstockdoh, must be ahead07:15
bmidgleyhaven't heard anyone getting discount codes yet07:15
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MilhouseAhead EST + 507:15
Fenix-Darkyou guys know if the 880 would be fast enough to play your average tv show xvid 480p .avi rips at native frame rate?07:15
Milhousexvid not supported by default. mplayer may support it though07:16
Fenix-DarkMilhouse, MPlayer does support it, i've got the 770 and it struggles to get in the double digits07:16
Fenix-Darkwhen playing back xvid 480p res files07:16
Milhousethe N800 may be better - Serge has released a test build for the N800 with hardware fp enabled07:17
Milhouseearly days yet though for the N80007:17
Fenix-Darkif it can play them at the 24 or w/e fps, i'll be very interested and tempted to move to an 88007:17
bjvN800 runs on a single 320mhz core?07:18
bjvrather then 2x 220mhz?07:18
Milhouse330Mhz ARM+DSP07:19
MilhouseARM6 rather than ARM5 so architectural improvements as well as just speed07:19
bstockwait 770 is dual core?07:20
Milhouseer, think that should be ARM11 rather than ARM907:20
Milhouse770 is also ARM+DSP07:20
bstockdamn that's news to me07:20
MilhouseKeep it up, I might get a discount code at this rate :)07:21
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bstockanyone know if there is or plans for a hard case for the 80007:30
MilhouseThere is a case on the Nokia site but no links to buy it07:31
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bstockdo you happen to have a link to said case?07:31
Milhousehang on07:31
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bstockthx, i'm not finding it07:32
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bstocki see Availableseparately: Wallet and case for N80007:33
MilhouseTry this:
MilhouseLooks like it will protect the screen07:35
bstocki wonder when it'll be available07:35
MilhouseJust a shame Nokia don't want to sell it to you07:35
bmidgleyit might be harder to "pocket" the n800 with that lump where the camera and pen are07:35
MilhouseNo idea, I guess they'll get their act together once CES has finished and they're all back at work07:36
bstockheh. yeah i would feel uncomfortable carrying that screen in the same pocket as my keys07:36
MilhouseThe N800 is 13/18mm thick, I'll let you know tomorrow how 18mm feels :)07:36
Milhouseoh yeah, keys + screen not a good combination07:37
bstocki was playing with it at CompUSA today, it doesn't seem too much larger than the 77007:37
Milhouseor keys + phone07:37
MilhouseI suspect it's not going to be much thicker than a 770+case07:37
bstockit didn't seem like it. we compared them at the store and it was pretty close07:37
gpdi am intrigued how that n800 case would attach - no obvious holes and the stand would be messed up if covers the back07:38
Milhousereplacement battery cover?07:38
gpdyes - undoubtedly07:39
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gpdmeanwhile - back to avahi-browse...07:39
Milhousegiven the shape of the N800, I wonder if there is scope for a fatter/higher capacity batter with new cover that smooths out the rear of the device?07:39
gpddieguito-zzz: are you really zzz ?07:40
dieguito-zzzgpd: let me check... mmm... no07:40
bstockMilhouse: now that would be cool.. though it would make it kind of beastly07:41
gpdi have installed avahi-browse and can see some things with -a option07:41
Milhousei dunno, you can get double capacity after market batteries for ipaqs and they're not significantly larget - a few mms more maybe07:41
bstockyeah but if it filled in the gap to make it straight down from the widest portion of the back.. that would be pretty thick07:43
bstockwhat you trying to do with avahi-browse?07:43
Milhousemaybe - i haven't held a device yet so can only guess from the pictures07:43
gpdbstock: i am trying to get rhythmbox to share to n800 mediastreamer07:43
bstockdo you see any remote services with avahi-browse, or just local services?07:44
gpdjust local07:45
gpdthe n800 seems very fussy about connecting to my wifi after being off :(07:45
bstockthings like ssh, printers.. that kind of stuff?07:45
gpdthis has happened 3x now --- turn on - cant find network, tries again, tries to connect, says network error, then tries again, then succeeds07:46
gpdbstock: nothing07:46
gpd+ vmnet8 IPv407:46
gpd'that sort of stuff07:46
gpdof and ssh remote terminal07:46
gpdThis is normally a bug in some application using the D-Bus library.07:49
gpd9931: arguments to dbus_pending_call_unref() were incorrect, assertion "pending != NULL" failed in file dbus-pending-call.c line 487.07:49
gpd^ after restarting dbus07:49
gpd(rhythmbox:9931): Rhythmbox-WARNING **: Unable to notify network of music sharing: The avahi MDNS service is not running07:49
bstockheh um, yeah that's starting to get over my head07:50
gpdbut i do /etc/init.d/avahi-daemon start07:50
bstockyou may have to start the service manually07:50
gpdusing avahi-daemon ?07:50
bstockopen a seperate term and run avahi-daemon as root07:50
bstocki don't think you can run avahi-browse without the daemon running07:51
gpdavahi-daemon -D ?07:51
bstockso the daemon must be running if you're browsing07:51
bstocki just run avahi-demon and it comes up07:51
gpdok started... some stuff appears07:51
bstockum.. now try rhythmbox maybe..?07:52
bstocki dunno07:52
bstocki don't have much experience with avahi stuff07:52
gpdok now sharing gives no errors in rhythmbox07:53
gpdbut still 'searching for new devices' on n80007:53
bstockfrom a separate term on desktop run avahi-browse -a to see if you can see rhythmbox's service07:53
gpd+ vmnet8 IPv4 gpd iTunes Audio Access  local07:54
gpdseems so07:54
bstockhmm that's good07:54
bstockyou on ubuntu or other debian distro?07:54
gpdubuntu edgy07:54
bstock+ eth1 IPv4 bstock's Music                                iTunes Audio Access  local07:55
bstocklook liek that?07:55
gpd+ eth0 IPv4 gpd                                           iTunes Audio Access  local07:55
gpdok - checking internet on tablet, restating mediastreamer07:56
bstocklemme install mediastreamer on 77007:56
gpdnothing showing up still07:56
bstockFailed to fetch  404 Not Found07:57
bstockgay, hold on07:57
gpdhold on - bora on a 770?07:57
bstocki found a deb07:58
bstockjust uploading it07:58
* gpd still wonders where most of /var/log went07:58
gpdi don't need to do anything funky on my wireless router do i?07:59
bstocki wouldn't think so08:00
bstockhmm, well it would help to add music to rhythmbox to test with08:00
bstockdamnit, now i have to get mp3 support in rhythmbox working08:01
bstockgot something?08:02
gpdjust ran gmediaserver /home/gpd/Music -- and there it is on n800!08:02
gpdlooks like your avahi stuff is a red herring08:02
* gpd ducks08:02
bstockbut is it streaming yet?08:02
gpdhold on -- that folder is rather large -- let me try a smaller one08:03
* gpd does a little dance08:04
gpdso what's the deal with the avahi stuff?08:05
gpdis that available on another player?08:05
gpdmediastreamer is UPnP08:05
bstockavahi is a system that discovers services on a lan08:06
bstockthe daemon i think pushes the service out to other devices08:06
gpdbut the iTunes sharing protocol - what players support that?08:06
bstockso when you bring up mediastreamer on the nokia, it looks for services using avahi08:07
bstockfrom what it looks like anyway08:07
gpdnot sure about that -- i will stop avahi and see if gmediaserver still runs08:08
gpdyep - still running08:08
bstockhmm alright.. well whatever at least it's working right08:09
gpdyes - fantastic :)08:09
gpdjust noticing weird screen flashing when in dimmed mode ...08:09
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gpdis anyone planning on setting up an style site for tablets?08:11
bstockkind of like this?
bstockguess that is more dev centered08:13
Milhousehave to agree - what's wrong with the Wiki?08:13
Milhousedoesn't mean someone can't create their own "user oriented" seciont08:13
gpdwell -- none of my first 25 questions are on there08:13
gpdcan we edit that page?08:13
bstockand the application catalog tells how to install most apps08:13
Milhousei think so - they get defaced fairly regularly08:13
gpdbut no mention of gmediaserver for example08:14
gpdor - simple things like changing user password won't break the system08:15
gpdi am happy to contribute - i just need to know the right place08:15
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MilhouseI'd definately say the maemo wiki is the best place, someone more familiar with it's maintenance can probably advise a suitable section etc.08:16
* gpd attempts to serve 100G of audio o.O08:18
* bstock is saddened by his meere 40GB08:18
gpdsorry didn't mean to be a brag - just for sheer craziness of it08:19
bstockthat's ok, my penis can compensate for it ;)08:20
dieguitoI have like 5G08:21
bstockthat won't even fill an ipod08:21
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bstockunless you have a nano, those are for girls though08:21
myrenwhere the fuck do i get a N800?08:22
bstockor nokia.com08:22
gpdmyren: install the sdk scratchbox and squint ;)08:22
myrencompusa fucking sucks nut in denver08:22
myrenthey dont carry _anything_08:22
bstockcompusa sucks everywhere08:22
myreni had to go to three stores to find a fucking intel mobo08:23
bstockbut they DO have n800's, at least the one i went to today did08:23
myreni went to two stores today08:23
myrenand both stores recieved a single N80008:23
myrenas a demo unit08:23
myrenand both stores08:23
bstockthat's your problem. don't buy anything at compusa you can get at newegg.com08:23
myrenhad their demo unit stolen08:23
myreni fucking shit you not.08:23
myrenbstock: the mobo i bought was DOA and i didnt feel like waiting two weeks for an exchange08:23
bstockthat sucks08:24
myrenmercifully compusa had a somewhat respectable gigabyte mobo.  unfrotuantely it was $150.08:24
bstockdo they have microcenter or fry's warehouse around? just about anything is better than compusa08:24
myrenthere's a microcenter08:24
bstockeven overnight shipping on a new product from newegg would be cheaper08:24
myrenyeah now that you mention it.  :/08:24
bstockmicrocenter is good. actual decent prices08:24
myreni wasnt actually sure what was dead at the time08:24
myreni suspected the mobo08:25
myrenthe original plan was to test the gigabyte then return it08:25
myrenbut i am oh so lazy08:25
myrenerm, get the gigabyte, test the processor & vid card, then return it08:25
gpdhow do I do 'shift select' ? [would be another question for the wiki]08:25
bstockin which app?08:26
bstocki don't know if you can do it at all though..08:26
gpdwell - in general - but email / contacts etc.08:27
bstockonly way i know of would be to bring up osk and use that shift button08:27
gpdhow do you bring up osk without a text box?08:28
bstocksometimes the button in the center of the direction buttons will bring it up08:28
gpdok - nvm - just thought it might be a feature i was missing08:29
bstockspeaking of.. does the n800 have a scroll button in the center there?08:29
gpdhow do you mean?08:30
bstocki thought i read something about it being used as a scroll wheel or something08:30
gpdit has the 4 way thing with button in middle, then08:30
gpdan escape, menu, home -08:30
gpdyou can use the 4way to scroll pages etc08:31
bstockalright, prob the same as the 770. i thought maybe it had a scroll-wheel feature but wasn't sure08:31
gpdnope - nothing that resembles a wheel08:31
gpdholy crap - gmediaserver can up with the goods!08:32
gpdi have a ridiculously large amount of music available to me now :D08:32
bstock14 min.. not bad08:32
gpdmediastreamser seems to handle well08:32
bstock220mhz ftw08:32
bstockwait, you're on an n800 right?08:33
gpdthe 14 min is on an AMD64 3400+ with 2G and 1T drives08:33
bstockthat's sweet08:34
gpdyeah - very snazzy08:34
bstockunfortunately it's a mustang but still08:34
gpd-- this mediastreamer is amazingly fast with all this data08:34
bstockthe concept is there08:34
gpdnot much delay at all in starting or finding08:35
bstockwhat's the problem you were having with mediastreamer, it just doesn't see the service?08:39
gpd? no problem with gmediaserver and mediastreamer -- all working fine08:39
bstockno before you got it working08:40
bstocki have the service running on my desktop08:40
gpdwell - it didn't work at all with the avahi stuff08:40
bstockbut mediastreamer doesn't see my desktop08:41
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gpdi just dropped all that and ran gmediaserver /mymedia08:41
bstocki should check my iptables..08:41
gpdbstock: forgetabout all that -- install gmediaserver08:41
gpdof course it has now frozen having said that :}08:41
gpdjust the player -- still playing music - but unresponsive to taps08:42
gpdhah - media stream not responding - close?08:42
gpdvery nice08:43
gpdclosed... but still playing media!08:43
gpdbah -- ssh root@teeny time08:43
gpdkilled the gmediaserver destop and now stopped08:44
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gpdso do you know anything about the 'rendering' side of this versus the 'controlling' side?08:45
gpdideally i would want the nokia to be a remote for my main stereo / tv08:45
gpdthat is part of UPnP afaik08:45
bstockyeah screw rhythmbox08:46
vittorioyou should be able to remote other upnp devices by selecting the device in top right menu08:46
gpdvittorio: very cool -- i should look into remote devices08:47
gpdi imagine a small box with a wifi antenna and RCA stereo cables - probably expensive / not made yet08:48
bstockyeah there are08:49
bstocki just don08:49
bstock't know if they'd be compatible08:49
gpdHMG $64608:49
gpdscrew that dude - i'll plug the freaking optical cable in thanks!08:50
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bstockhowbout linksys WRT54GL, mount smb/nfs drive08:50
bstockjust need to port gmediaserver to it08:50
bstockif it's not already done08:50
gpdnow i'm confused08:51
gpdhow about if i just plug my desktop into my stereo -- and use the nokia as a controller?08:51
bstockvittorio: do you know if you can use gmediastreamer accross subnets?08:51
gpdthat should be possible / no extra cost08:51
bstockwow it's 2 AM :(08:52
gpdhah - that is when i ordered by bluetooth sierra last night!08:53
vittoriobstock, dunno08:53
bstocktime to check out. cya08:57
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gpdthanks bstock - cheers08:57
gpdhmm - i miss my adblock09:07
tigertno kidding09:07
tigertthats the most shocking thing to me. and flash banners09:08
gpdi know -- not seen them for years! ;)09:08
tigerton 3G adblock would help a lot with speed too09:08
* gpd wonders what the next conquest should be 09:08
tigerti guess building one of those proxy-based blockers woud also work09:09
tigertshould be easy to port09:09
gpdlike the old junkbuster days09:09
tigertyea. those stil exist i think09:09
gpdtigert: you are n800 too right?09:09
gpdhave you had any problems connecting to wifi after startup?09:10
tigertalso a 77009:10
gpdor weird 'pulsing' screen when in dim mode in some apps09:10
tigerthmm. no. but bugs might exist :)09:11
gpdya -- hopefully bugs not hardware09:11
tigertone of the guys in the office had issues with wavelan, would connect,09:11
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Milhousemy god - are apple the new sony? They've been shipping 802.11n hardware in their desktops for quite a while and they need a software update to activate it, but the "enabler software" is only provided with the Apple Airport Extreme base station so you're shit out of luck using your iMac with a Linksys 11n router for example.09:12
tigertbut it just didnt work, browser gave network errors09:12
MilhouseAnd people complain about Nokia...!09:12
tigertmil: duhhh09:12
gpdi am glad the apple iphone frenzy has died down - i am /so/ over it09:13
gpdbut i had about 12 people asking me about it today - who normally wouldn't know that the intarweb existed!09:13
gpdthe power of marketing...09:14
Milhouse"So Steve, I know my iMac has 11n hardware but, like, I'm not allowed to use it with my existing network kit until I buy some other piece of crap from you that I don't need?"09:14
gpdtigert: what tips for fun and games on tablets?09:14
tigerti am just getting to work. i can imagine the topic of coffee discussions ;)09:14
tigertgpd, i just use browser, and mostly ssh with inz's xterm09:15
MilhouseWhat amazes me about the iPhone is that people are making excuses about how it will be so good in the future (gen 2, they'll add 3G etc, open the software blah blah) yet the 770 and N800 get caned because people don't "get it"09:15
tigertit installs bitstream vera so its pretty.09:15
gpdpeople like simple ideas - 'cos they are simple09:15
gpdlike: 'no stylus!!!'09:15
gpdor 'USE YOUR FINGERS'09:16
Milhousethey like the iPhone because it looks nice and they're suckered by the iPod effect, mugs.09:16
tigertmil, because they run after apple because they know what they need better than themselves? ;)09:16
Milhousetouchscreen phones are CRAP, fkcing CRAP09:16
tigertwell. i am sure discussion at work will touch eyecandy too.09:17
gpdoh dear -- i seem to have started this discussion again09:17
MilhouseI plonked down a fortune for the W950i yet I miss my pos T61009:17
danielsi think the sketchiest thing about iphone is going to be text input; really not convinced by the on-screen keyboard09:17
tigertand we need more of that also. but gtk is sorta not too suited for animations and smooth transitions09:18
gpddaniels: i agree -- they show a 'finger' typing on our screen turned sideways -- no way09:18
vittoriois the N800 able to connect to a samba or nfs server?09:18
tigertdaniels, our thumb kbd works okay thoug. if they have good click feedback it can be good.09:18
gpdvittorio: there is nfs-common installed on my n80009:19
tigertthough i am thinking that on te demos the keypad was AWFULLY SMALL09:19
gpdi think they think that people won't ever type on it -- they will just whizz the menus up and down forever09:19
vittoriogpd: so you can mount nfs ?09:19
tigertApple demo videos i mean09:20
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gpdvittorio: not tried as yet09:20
MilhouseMaybe it's because in the States, text isn't that popular?09:20
danielstigert: right, the size was worrying09:20
gpdMilhouse: simmer09:20
danielsand yeah, i can't really see writing an sms on tha tthing.09:20
gpdi have already extracted myself from OSX once this year and i'm not going back! :)09:21
gpdbut they do make life very easy if you 'just believe'09:21
gpdMilhouse: I detected a mini-rant coming on ;)09:22
Milhousefrom me?!09:22
tigertwell. it CAN work if done well09:22
Milhousesurely not... nah quite chilled here09:22
danielsbizzare amounts of faith in things unseen, fanatical devotees, standing up on chairs and cheering and shouting when the glorious leader is on stage ... i've seen it all before09:22
tigerti mean, i am surprised how well i can type with this thumb keyboard on a moving bus09:23
MilhouseJust goes to show what good marketing can do for your products09:23
tigertso it definitely can be done09:23
gpdtigert: that is with the tumboard on the entire screen though - they don't show that on the videos09:24
keesjtigert, but it's also a lot of do the right thing[tm]. the gui again is slik09:24
gpdhow much is the plan per month? did they mention that?09:24
gpd$599 with 2 year contract + $50/mo ???09:25
Milhousei've seen $30/month and $60/month mentioned09:25
gpdwow - that soon adds up09:25
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Milhouseoh yes09:25
gpdis that with unlimited data?09:25
Milhousei should bloody hope so!09:25
Milhouseand a cherry on top09:26
tigertthat was exactly my thought. but its a whole different story how the final phone looks. that was a well done demo presentation.09:26
tigertyou americans with your plans09:26
gpdtrue - but i think the 'one device to rule them all is probably flawed in the short term09:26
gpdyou wouldn't attempt to combine a coffee maker and a toaster09:26
Milhouseand all the online demos are renderings, giving no indication of how the device will really perform in terms of responsiveness etc. mugs on engadget are talking about how the demos looks really "slick" well yeah, apple aren't going to insert random 2 second delays between actions now are they? ;)09:27
gpdjust have the smallest possible device to do the job and communicate with all the others wirelessly09:27
tigertwell. I for example wouldnt want to sidetalk with the 88009:27
gpdsidetalk - being hold it next to your ear?09:27
tigertthe headset is good for voip. but i dont want to wear one all the time09:28
tigertyeah. the 880 would make one clunky phone09:28
MilhouseNot sure I'd want to talk into an iPhone, particularly in a "dodgey" neighbourhood...09:28
timelesswhat's the 880?09:28
gpdyou mean the concept phone wrist band thing?09:29
tigerterm, N800 ;)09:30
tigertjust was thinking 770 and N800 at the same time09:30
gpdhmm... getting definite pulsing of dimmed screen :(09:30
timelessthat'd get you the 870 like all the rumor sites09:31
timelesssilly bear09:31
timelesstigers are wonderful things, they're bouncy bouncy....09:31
konttoriConsidering how much iphone is an ipod, I presume they aim for people to have their ipod headset (with the mic) to be connected to iphone at all times and thus no problems talking to it09:31
tigertyea ;)09:31
tigertkonttori, yea.09:32
gpdn800 drops connection to wifi again... :|09:32
tigertthe n800 headset is nice, as one can actually voiptalk in public now with quite nice sound quality09:33
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gpdoh -- a network error -- what a surprise09:33
timelesstigert:  i'm too lazy to open my box :)09:33
tigerthow far is the access point?09:33
konttoriahh... good. Does voip work on gprs / edge connections as well or do you need 3g?09:33
gpdabout 4.5 feet09:33
konttorifor decent latency I mean09:33
gpdmaybe less09:33
danielstigert: i can't.  normal earphones don't fit in my ears; i need silicon mushroom caps.09:33
qgil"multi touch"? And, oh, can't the N880 fly?  :)09:34
llegpd: I noticed the pulsing as well, but only if the charger is connected09:34
tigerti think it does. its hard to test non-3G in helsinki though09:34
gpdlle: yes charger is connected09:34
danielstigert: the mylo had the right idea there; you've got a crazy custom plug that leads to a small bit with the mic, button, and a standard 3.5mm plug, so you can plug your own headphones in09:34
llegpd: and wifi seems to have some serious issues with wpa09:34
danielsqgil: touching multiple places on the screen at the same time09:34
tigertdaniels, yea. snatch a set and lets solder a bit?09:35
Milhousekontorri - whenever I tried 770 Google Talk VoIP over GPRS, my 770 rebooted :(09:35
gpdlle: no - this is wep, but consistent problem connecting on startup09:35
qgildaniels: I know, this is why I'm a bit surprised that someone expected this feature in the N80009:35
danielstigert: i've got two headsets on my desk, i think09:35
tigertshouldnt be hard09:35
danielsqgil: the iphone does it, so about ten people have asked if it's possible09:35
llegpd: you've updated the software?09:35
gpdlle: yes, flashed yesterday09:35
gpdbut not done the apt-get update with repos.maemo.org09:36
gpdwhich i hear is dangerous09:36
danielstigert: but i'd also like not to still be able to use my earphones with other things, so i'd have to go to verkkokauppa ifrst09:36
qgildaniels: I see. Wow, 2 mins after logging in and I have already learnt something  - I need my breakfast  :)09:36
danielsgpd: right, the device is not upgradable with apt09:36
danielsqgil: you too, eh09:36
konttoriMillhouse: Sorry to hear that. I only used Gizmondo to call to a friend in taiwan to a mobile line. Worked flawlessly every time09:37
gpddaniels: i got the mediastreamer working earlier with gmediaserver - fantastic stuff :)09:37
konttoriMuch more comfortable than skype on desktop.09:37
tigertand dont09:37
tigertapt-get update is not guaranteed to work right09:37
* konttori looks forward to skype on N80009:37
Milhousekontorri - only tried it to see if it was possible so no big loss, besides I only know one person who has VoIP :)09:37
Milhouseand he's on Skype!09:38
konttoriI only called landlines. So, same issue.09:38
gpdgizmondo worked well too - - a very nice addition09:38
Milhousedaniels - I've missed the issues with apt... can you briefly explain as my N800 is arriving in a few hours... :)09:38
danielsMilhouse: 'don't try to upgrade your device via apt'09:38
Milhouseah, upgrade as in upgrade the OS?09:39
vittoriois it possible to make a backup on 770, copy the backup to n800 and do a restore on n800? or will it screw things up?09:39
gpddaniels: are any of the upgrades listed in redpill app manager safe - or is it just apt-get upgrade?09:39
danielsMilhouse: indeed09:39
Milhouserighto, thanks09:39
danielsgpd: i have no idea, sorry09:39
tigertdaniels, yea. but i meant doing a short Y-cable that separates the mic plug into its own09:39
danielstigert: oh, right09:39
tigertie, just using the plug of te 800 headset. perhaps the mic too.09:40
Milhouseany of you nokians tried SDHC cards in the N800?09:40
danielsi suck at electronics :)09:40
tigertmic+clip and then a small female plug to add your own phones09:40
danielsMilhouse: the kernel doesn't have sdhc support, so it won't work09:41
Milhouseyou must have a few lying around the place :)09:41
Milhouse4GB SD works ok09:41
Milhouseand that isn't supposed to be supported either09:41
danielsMilhouse: no, _some_ 4gb cards will work okay, because they're still byte-addressed, rather than sdhc09:41
Milhouseso an SDHC won't fall back to SD ?09:41
danielsMilhouse: but any 4gb sdhc card will fail, because the support just isn't in the kernel at all09:41
danielsMilhouse: i don't know of any sdhc card that does, no09:41
Milhouseok thanks09:41
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sKaBoyops, wrong window :)09:44
gpdanyone got an estimate of how long before python for bora?09:48
gpd'when its ready' -- failing that - an idea of whether it would 'just compile'09:48
gpdi see the mistral packages and might try it in my sdk09:49
tigertmight just work with recompile, might just also run if they install.09:50
keesjso many people are going to try things like that09:50
konttoriFunny that they still have 770 ad there09:50
MilhouseAs Ari said "we keep on selling and supporting 770s"09:51
MilhouseNot sure how wise a move that will turn out to be, though...09:51
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tigertif the price is right, the 770 is a nice thing for a lot of stuff09:52
timelesswell, if the 770s drop a bit in price09:52
gpdScreen: Most gorgeous ever. -- lies09:52
timelessgpd: which?09:52
gpd^ review09:52
Milhouseright, but it will also increase the number of people bitching about the lack of OS2007 etc.09:52
tigertthe n800 screen is good - the only lack is transreflectivity, so bright sunlight is not your friend09:53
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Milhousegpd: Apple have reinvented the mobile phone, don't ya know09:53
gpdGoogle Maps: Perfect. <-- has anyone got scrolling working in n800 opera09:53
MilhouseEven though it does exactly what my W950i (and several other phones) do09:54
timelessgpd: sorry09:54
timelessi presume you mean panning09:54
timelessand basically, it's a design bug09:54
gpdyes -- drag with the stylus09:54
timelessthe spec authors for the browser in the n800 didn't forsee google09:54
timelessso you are stuck with a browser optimized for web1.009:54
timelessbe thankful it works09:55
gpdalso seems to be failing with google calendar09:55
gpd[as you mention]09:55
timelesshistorically didn't work at all09:55
* timeless hasn't actually tested calendar recently09:55
gpdso we await an improved browser ported09:55
dieguitothere's no gecko for maemo?09:55
timelessthere's a minimo port avaialble09:55
timelessit should work tolerably well on the n80009:56
gpdi tried calendar last night - looked good - but couldn't add an event - transparent box and 'submit' not working09:56
MilhouseThere is Minimo, in perpetual development09:56
dieguitoso it is factible to let's say, port the best browser ever, I mean of course Epiphany09:56
* timeless coughs09:56
timelessfeel free to waste your time09:56
* timeless goes off to post a gecko patch for a gtk induced crash09:56
llelast I checked minimo didn't build for arm linux if taken from cvs09:57
keesjjust use vnc :)09:57
timelesslle: unfortunately most people build on ports w/ patch sets09:57
timelesshowever, i don't recall which patches aren't in cvs09:57
dieguitokeesj: vnc to a virtual machine inside a vmware on my linux box, way to go \o/ :P09:57
timelessand i'd rather post my patch than review a bug list09:57
timelessif you give me a pastebin url to a build failure, i'll find you the corresponding fix09:58
lletimeless: I figured something like that, but decided to give up on chasing the necessary patches09:58
llesorry, can't produce them right now, was with the xpcom "reflection" stuff09:58
timelessthat'll do09:59
timelessplease wait09:59
MilhouseI thought Nokia had invested money in Minimo a couple of years back, it puzzles me why Minimo is still so far away from release09:59
timelesswell, i have a parisc patch floating aroudn09:59
tigerttimeless, also09:59
llemozilla codebase is.. strange.09:59
Milhouse(other than the fact there are only about two guys working on it)09:59
timelessmilhouse: i'm curious as to how you thought that10:00
Milhousewhich bit?10:00
Milhousemoney, or only two guys?10:00
timelessthe investment10:00
Milhousegoogle for it - hang on10:00
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timelessin short: yes, they did10:01
tigertits a bit hard to do OnMouseOver hover right with a stylus10:01
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lletimeless: but this was about a month ago, dunno current situation10:01
timelesswhich is what enables minimo to compile/run on it10:01
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timelesslle: i've landed various patches this month10:01
timelessand none are turning up10:01
Milhousethe link above is June 200410:01
timelessmilhouse: the funding was a one off thing10:02
Milhouse2.5 years ago when Nokia invested in Minimo10:02
timelessit wasn't for continuous investment10:02
MilhouseI wonder what it got them?10:02
timelessit got minimo to compile and run on arm10:02
MilhouseObviously didn't get them a browser10:02
MilhouseWasn't that always the plan - on WinCE?10:02
lleevaluation of the browser, to some definition of evaluation10:02
timelessit didn't include optimization10:03
gpdso do we have a vague idea of timeline for web 2.0 on nokia.opera10:03
timelessand it didn't include any stupid features that management might have required10:03
timelessgpd: i'm not sure which royal we you mean10:03
timelessi think tigert knows10:03
gpdthe collective channel we ;)10:03
timelessi'm assuming as #maemo the answer is no10:03
llewith 770 running minimo would have been overly ambitious, imo10:03
timelessit's possible10:04
timelessthere are debs and a repository10:04
timelessnot that i managed to get the repository to work10:04
timelessit always breaks application installer10:04
* lle is not surprised10:04
timelessanyway, keep in mind that nokia is a company10:04
timelessold style10:04
Milhouseminimo on 770 wored ok, kinda. with optimisation it would be much better10:04
timelessit has a very long and drawn out process for doing things10:04
Milhousetimeless: installing minimo from a deb worked ok for me10:05
tigertwhat interests me on "web2.0" more,10:05
timelessmilhouse: i should have been clearer: i've installed from debs10:05
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timelessi know that works10:06
timelessi just haven't gotten the repository to work, so i can't have it give me updates or whatever a repository does10:06
Milhouseah, but installing fom app manager breaks?10:06
timelessno, adding the repository breaks the app manager10:06
tigertis stuff like "pop out videocam and post to youtube" or "send to > flickr"10:06
tigertfor photos10:06
timelessnot installing from it, the entire manager breaks10:06
gpdtigert: was there and end to that sentence above?10:06
gpdah - there is is - sorry10:07
tigertthis kind of integration is a harder problem though10:07
timelesstigert: that's what scares me the most10:07
timelessit's a security nightmare10:07
timelessand that's after you ignore the integration prolems10:07
timelessfwiw, in theory flash has camera read support10:07
tigertwell. web is scary.10:07
timelessso, eventually someone could fix a version of flash to do it10:07
Milhousethat level of integration - "post to youtube/flickr/etc" - would be pretty killer, though10:08
timelesshowever, i wouldn't expect it before say 2010 and flash 1010:08
danielstimeless: app installer> you're screwing something up on your end, then10:08
timelesswhichever comes second10:08
gpdyes - but all that stuff 'just arrives' once you have a browser capable of /anything/10:08
timelessdaniels: that's nice10:08
timelessplease insult me more10:08
timelessi'll go back to getting work done10:08
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danielstimeless: jesus christ, it's a statement of fact, not an insult10:08
timelessi installed about 15 repositories10:08
tigertyoutube has some flash thingy to upload video ad-hoc10:08
timelessthat one is the only one that broke my installer10:08
danielstimeless: right ...10:08
tigerton a desktop computer with cam10:08
danielstimeless: hence, broken repository10:09
timelessit's the only one whose instructions said not to include certain fields10:09
timelessdaniels: i know10:09
timelessanyway. i'd rather get work done, this is a waste of my time :)10:09
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timelessok forget posting a patch, i'll make someone else do that :)10:10
tigertyou seem to enjoy it though ;)10:10
timelessnot really10:10
timelessi enjoy posting patches and bugs much more10:11
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gpdstupid q: where are the source packages for
danielsgpd: ... on repository.maemo.org10:19
gpdso how do i download them from http? not seeing them in /pool/foo/free/bar10:20
gpdi normally rely on apt-get source  :(10:21
gpdah - hiding at the top -- very good - thanks10:21
* timeless has found apt-get source to be dangerous10:23
timelessit tends to corrupt packages10:23
timelessespecially the way nokia manages packages :)10:23
danielstimeless: 'corrupt packages'?10:24
timelesssometimes two packages exist w/ a given name10:24
timelessa source package and a package package10:24
timelessand they aren't necessarily related10:25
daniels... yes ...10:25
suihkulokkiwhat timeless is trying to say, is that two different source packages can produce the same binary package. and apt-get source can pick the wrong one.10:26
danielseven though that should never happen, ever, that will lead to, sourcename_*.{dsc,tar.gz,diff.gz,} being downloaded when you run apt-get source binaryname10:26
timelesssuihkuolokki: actually, in my case the source package produced an unrelated binary package10:27
timelessor something really annoying :)10:27
danielssuihkulokki: okay, which is a problem created entirely by the repository setup, and it still doesn't 'corrupt' packages10:27
danielstimeless: dude, that's what source packages _do_.  they produce multiple binary packages.10:27
timelessdaniels: erm10:27
danielsso in every case here, the worst case is that you get extra files that you didn't necessarily want10:27
timelessone usually expects package source-foo to produce at least foo10:27
timelessin my case it produced only unrelated-bar10:27
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timelessand because it existed, i couldn't get the sources for foo easily10:28
timelessand this isn't a problem w/ repositories10:28
danielstimeless: apt-cache show foo, the source package name is trivially obtainable from there10:28
timelessit's a problem w/ the packages themselves10:28
timelessdaniels: i'm a script10:28
danielstimeless: yes, but the repository management should never allow this to occur10:28
timelessi finished my script a few months ago10:28
timelessi deal10:28
timelessdaniels: oh, well, err...10:28
timelessno comment10:29
suihkulokkitimeless: specify the version of source you want10:29
timelesssuihkolokki: please don't bother10:29
suihkulokkiie. apt-get source timeless-farts-kernel=2.6.1810:29
timelessi had a bunch of people who seemed to know apt fairly well10:29
timelessand they essentially dictated what to do10:29
timelessit works well enough10:29
timelessa number of people here will vouch for that10:29
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* gpd compiles python 2.4.2 for bora10:31
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vittoriowhat. my n800 is already in town but UPS changed deliveryday to tomorrow. thats for the extra 20 euro i paid?10:35
danielsvittorio: sounds like ups10:37
lleI wonder how much pain, fear and suffering must happen before this manic obsessive use of debian passes10:37
gpdcrap -0- Nokia-N800-51:/home/user# dpkg -i python2.4_2.4.2-1osso13_arm.deb10:37
gpddpkg: error processing python2.4_2.4.2-1osso13_arm.deb (--install): package architecture (arm) does not match system (armel)10:37
timelesswell, you could force it, but that'd be a very bad idea :)10:38
gpdthat was compiledd in scratchbox armel10:38
gpdwhat am i doing wrong?10:38
timelessmaybe the package file is wrong :)10:38
danielsgpd: maybe your scratchbox setup is screwed10:39
Guardianmorning all10:39
lleI think there's a sbox env variable controlling the dpkg architecture?10:39
gpddaniels: setup using the installer yesterday10:39
gpd[sbox-SDK_ARMEL: ~/python] >10:39
danielslle: debian itself isn't the problem, it's scratchbox, packaging by people who don't know anything about packaging, and our horrifically broken repository, that cause all these problems10:39
lledaniels: yes, I know, and I blame debian for all this10:40
danielslle: i've been doing debian/ubuntu stuff for six years now, including setting repositories up by hand, and inter-distribution merging, and honestly, i hadn't even conceived of half of the problems i'd faced in the past eleven months10:40
danielslle: ... seems rational10:40
lledaniels: yup10:40
* timeless chuckles10:40
Veggenarm and armel are different.10:40
timelessdaniels: http://swift/release/10:41
Veggendifferent endianness.10:41
c0ffeebtw, i figured out that the .deb files of scratchbox install the same broken setup10:41
suihkulokkille: well, if everyone would use what you create, you would be claiming that people don't know howto use your system =)10:41
timelessif you have complaints, the scripts that generate it are somewhere on the server too10:41
llesuihkulokki: that's precisely what I do :)10:41
gpdhere is what i did - as a complete retard with 36hrs knowledge:10:41
gpddownloaded source packages from above10:42
gpdcopied to sbox-sdk-armel10:42
gpddpkg-source -x python2.4_2.4.2-1osso13.dsc10:42
gpddpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b10:42
danielslle: gentoo will fix everything ;)10:42
gpdcopied .deb to n800 -- dpkg -i -- fail10:42
lledaniels: I know, that's why I use it ;P10:42
danielsVeggen: er, no, arm is little-endian by default.  it's oabi vs eaib.10:43
timelessdaniels: how many years will it take to build the system on a 770 w/ gentoo? :)10:43
danielser, eabi10:43
danielstimeless: about as long as it takes to do anything useful with scratchbox ;)10:43
lledaniels: you're pathetic! :P10:43
c0ffeedaniels, btw, is your job at nokia what lle used to do for 2005?10:43
timelessyou like scatchbox as much as i do?10:43
* timeless didn't think that was possible10:43
danielslle: i'm bitter because this finnish residence permit stuff isn't going well, and i need someone to take it out on.  sorry.10:44
timelessdaniels: isn't nokia supposed to deal w/ that?10:44
gpdany pointers for an 10 year linux vetern /still/ trying to learn?10:44
timelessor are you replacing an annual visa?10:44
danielstimeless: i'm replacing an annual one, three weeks before it expires, a couple of days before i leave the country10:44
lledaniels: no problem10:45
danielsgpd: look at /scratchbox/targets/SDK_ARMEL.config, make sure the architecture name is armel, not arm10:45
gpd[rpm -ba foo.spec was much easier!]10:45
timelessdaniels: sounds like fun10:45
danielstimeless: this is actually entirely my fault10:45
timelessdaniels: yeah, but i expect to be in our position some year in the future10:45
timelessbtw, does nokia automatically deal w/ the annual one, or does the employee have to contact someone?10:45
gpd cat SDK_ARMEL.config10:46
llec0ffee: in a way yes, I guess10:46
c0ffeelle, and what will you do now then? :)10:46
timelesswhat's this docking device for your car that they mention?10:47
gpddaniels: did i mess up on the sdk install instructions?10:47
llec0ffee: umm, probably more on the kernel side10:47
timelessi don't remember seeing that listed on the box10:47
suihkulokki       Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2004).10:48
suihkulokki       All Rights Reserved.10:48
danielsgpd: okay, change arm to armel10:48
suihkulokkiWTF is the POINT of releasing a REFERENCE implementation with that license??10:49
danielsgpd: sometimes this goes wrong10:49
danielstimeless: it's an accessory10:49
timelessdaniels: like the headphones that are in the box10:49
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timelessor like the gps unit i can buy for the 770?10:50
* timeless loves ambiguity10:50
danielstimeless: you can buy10:50
timelesswas that announced at CES too?10:51
* timeless doesn't understand why it was mentioned in that writeup10:51
danielsprobably.  they were showing off navicore at the same time, which hasn't been released for n800 yet, only 770.10:51
* timeless nods10:51
timelesskinda poorly written article then10:52
c0ffeethe site mentiones the navi kit for n800 as well10:52
timelessdoes the nokiausa site still have a broken image for the n800?10:52
c0ffeehere it works10:53
c0ffeeit's a flash thing anyway10:53
timelesssee, i don't have flash10:53
gpddaniels: i edited SDK_ARMEL.config in /scratchbox/users/gpd/targets to get SBOX_CPU=armel, exit sbox ran sb-menu - killall -- ran sbox... didi10:53
gpd still getting: dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture is arm10:54
timelesshrm, i can't reach www.nokiausa.com10:54
* timeless wonders why10:54
danielsgpd: i'm not sure, sorry.  maybe lle would know a little more.10:54
c0ffeebut the gps is only listed as possible accessoir10:54
c0ffeeit's not buyable yet10:54
llegpd: there's a wiki on documenting the env variables10:54
lleno idea why you should need to use that though10:55
danielsc0ffee: er, the nokia ld-3w is available today, that's the one they've been selling with the 770 navkit for a while10:55
c0ffeeit's still not listed on the site10:55
timelessAliases:  www.nokiausa.com10:55
timelessis that correct?10:55
danielslle: sometimes sbox-config -ct screws up and does arm instead of armel.  no-one seems to have the useful combination of knows why/cares enough to fix it and go through the brutal process of geting everyone to actually use it.10:55
timeless(from nslookup)10:56
lledaniels: ok, could be. I've not built a debian package inside scratchbox in a loooong time. maybe never now that I think about it.10:56
timelessgpd? can you nslookup ?10:56
keesjwhat is -ct?10:56
timelesscreate target10:56
danielslle: heh10:56
gpdName:   nokiausa.com10:57
timelessand i presume you can reach that server10:57
timelessConnecting To not open connection to the host, on port 80: Connect failed10:57
gpd64 bytes from ( icmp_seq=1 ttl=237 time=59.8 ms10:57
timelessPinging [] with 32 bytes of data:10:58
timelessRequest timed out.10:58
lledaniels: I used to simply ask suihkulokki to package whatever I happened gobble together and claim as a "release" ;)10:58
danielslle: yeah, i noticed, but by the time i got there, he wasn't doing that anymore :(10:58
timelessok, i don't get it10:58
suihkulokkiI'm innocent10:58
danielslle: for the proto modules and libraries, i still do the packaging myself, but for the server (which is all i really change these days), i just push a tag in git, and yauheni sorts it out10:58
timelesswhy can't i get to that server?10:58
suihkulokkiwait, I wasn't blamed gor anything10:58
* timeless wonders how to flush arp10:59
llesuihkulokki is teh shit when it comes to packaging stuff, at least Worked For Me(TM) :)10:59
JaffaMorning, all10:59
gpdlle search on wiki for 'environment variable' not yielding obvious answers - should i give up as hopelessly out of depth?11:00
llegpd: no, wait, I'll dig it up11:00
llegpd: but there's nothing about dpkg in that list :(11:01
lleso not much help I'm afraid11:01
* gpd goes for a long walk off a short pier11:02
gpd2am here -- thanks for the help -- ttyl11:02
timelessgpd: well, if you're in helsinki, there isn't ice at the end of the pier11:02
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tigerti saw someone walking to work wearing a t-shirt today ;)11:17
danielswell, it is very warm11:18
danielsand blue skies11:18
danielsi'd honestly consider a t-shirt and shorts if it weren't so windy11:18
tigertthe wind is nasty. a tree fell on the road near my place last night11:19
suihkulokkithere is some strange bright thing shining out there11:19
danielsyeah, the canal was looking quite rough when i left last night (well, this morning, as it was only 7h ago)11:20
danielssuihkulokki: it's okay, i'm sure it'll be grey, dark, and raining, soon enough11:20
danielsthough i should shower and get outside before it does actually rain11:20
danielsif i miss the bright blue skies today, i'm going to be _pissed_11:20
dwdIt's nice weather here, too.11:21
dwd(Morning, BTW)11:21
danielsmorning.  and it even is.  i wonder if i can get into work before midday today.11:22
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trenkadaniels: when do you sleep? :)11:28
dwdI had my usual tough commute.11:28
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benceri've done some very dirty packages of gpe-mini-browser, you can get them from
AD-N770good morning11:31
benceras i say on my email to maemo ml, i'll try to make some better packages this weekend11:31
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danielstrenka: rarely11:44
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Guardiancould someone tell me how to link statically against a library made with libtoo ?11:49
dwdGuardian: libtool requires the sacrifice of your first-born to make it do that. If you don't have a first-born child as yet, or have previously sacrificed it, then I believe there's a hack involving a chicken.11:50
dwdalump: Oh, if only I were joking.11:52
inzDoesn't libtool automatically create .a files?11:52
dwdinz: I think it might, on some platforms, during certain phases of the moon.11:53
alumpdwd, no doubts11:53
Guardiani guess i'll just get rid of autotools11:53
inzMy osso-xterm for IT2005 used to link libvte statically and others dynamically11:55
Guardianinz: so you just specicy /usr/lib/mylib.a ?11:55
saispoit's possible to install software on mmc or not ?11:55
dwdinz: I *think* libtool outputs .a anyway on Linux.11:56
inzGuardian, yeah, passing that to the linker should do that11:56
inzdwd, when doing packages for maemo, I give shit about other platforms ;)11:56
inzdwd, IT2005 was ugly anyway...11:56
Guardianin fact i was curious about which path to pass and such11:57
Guardianbut it just all depends on how i previously installed the lib11:57
dwdinz: The trouble is, libtool doesn't actually help portability all that well anyway. I have endless problems with it at work, because there we need rpaths and all sorts.11:57
Guardianwow wow wow !!!! another pretty good candidate !
Guardianpower point and windows 95 ! *brilliant*11:58
Guardianthis discount offer really brings fun to the dev list11:58
EloiGuardian: hehe... :)11:59
dwdGuardian: Yes, I have to admit I'm feeling somewhat less guilty for having done my bragging email, now. At least mine did have some relevance.11:59
Guardiandwd: what was yours ? poker stuff ?12:00
dwdGuardian: No. Telomer.12:00
abdwd: from telepathy stuff?12:01
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dwdGuardian: This Windows 95 one makes the poker one look valid, though. :-)12:01
dwdab: Telomer's a mobile-optimized email client. Uses the IETF Lemonade standards, which you can read all about at
abdwd: Ah, yes. Read that, sorry12:02
abdwd: What IMAP servers do support it?12:02
dwd(Telomer means a short-chain Polymer, Polymer being my desktop client)12:02
abdwd: Telomer in Russian means 'measurer of body'12:03
dwdab: IMAP support is in Cyrus IMAP 2.3.x, or Isode M-Box if you want something faster but non-free.12:03
abwhatever sense in that :-)12:03
Mddo I have any chance of getting a developer N800? maemo uses some of the debian packages I maintain (udev, module-init-tools, tcp-wrappers and ppp) and I'd like to learn more about how debian can be adapted to an embedded platform12:03
dwdab: Hey. My boss is Russian, and he never told me. :-)12:03
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danielsMd: /topic12:03
danielsMd: 'don't call us, we'll call you'12:03
abdwd: like we have 'termometr', 'spidometr', etc12:03
Mddaniels: I'll take this as a "no" then :-)12:04
dwdab: Lemonade also needs some support from SMTP (Or Submission, to be accurate), which isn't yet found in open-source land. Again, Isode M-Switch supports it, though.12:04
* dwd : Disclaimer : Isode is my employer, but have nothing to do with my client work.12:05
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X-Fadetigert: I think I fixed most layout/invalid html problems on We only have to wait for Ferenc to update the website with those.12:10
dwdkeesj: BT tracking through your house? You're a serious tech addict.12:11
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AD-N770good morning all12:25
danielsdwd: i know someone who used to use bt beaconing from his phone (usually in his pocket) to trigger music12:26
Jaffadaniels: cool12:28
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keesjdaniels, I  have done that also but with sony erricson phones and j2me12:30
danielskeesj: yeah, this was s-e12:30
keesjI used this stuff
keesj(on the server that is)12:34
keesjbut if I look at the difference between the n770 and the n800 I expect the next version to have even more connectivity and features12:36
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inzwh00, got MSN over Jabber to work more nicely when I set up my own jabber server12:44
jtokashWhat is the 'shared media' section in the file manager on the n800?12:45
Veggeninz: I ended up with using bitlbee.12:46
Veggeninz: everything through the IRC client.12:46
Veggeninz: bitlbee is an IRC-to-IM-proxy.12:46
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inzVeggen, I know bitlbee, I use that too sometimes12:46
inzVeggen, but w/ 770 / N800 a jabber transport is nice12:47
Veggeninz: mm, true.12:47
dwdinz: XMPP is nice for other reasons that just chat, too. But it's surprisingly heavy on bandwidth - I need to take a serious look at that at some point.12:49
Veggendwd: hmm. A specialized, IM-like bitlbee-client, could perhaps be a nice workaround for that, for those with a server to use ;-)12:52
dwdVeggen: I think it's mostly something that compression would sort out, actually. But I've simply not investigated, other than noting that if I enable the XMPP support in Polymer, my bandwidth counter goes up much faster.12:53
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dwdVeggen: Hmmm... That's annoying.'s server does no compression in TLS, and only offers stream-level compression without it. How silly.12:57
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Veggenhmm, my jabber-server requires TLS, I think.13:01
JaffaSince it's nearly noon, I'll ask for today - just in case - anyone got a developer device discount code yet? With all these worthy applications on maemo-developers, I feel I must be slipping down the queue quite quickly...13:04
dwdJaffa: I have a plan for that, though. I'm going to port strip poker, and then write a book on Windows 95 OSR2 - that should do the trick.13:07
keesjJaffa, the sooner the better. I don't think many developers will buy the N800 if there is a slim chance they get a discount13:07
Jaffakeesj: agreed13:11
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Jaffadwd: I might translate it into Esperanto13:11
dwdWell, the last DDP application wasn't quite so awful. Not that I can really understand the point of porting gossip - does that have anything over the existing IM UI?13:17
keesjany stats on the battery life of the n800?13:20
sitiwell the specs are the same13:21
siti3 hours usage13:21
siti10 days standby13:21
sitibut nokia doesn't lie I actually get about 6 hours battery life when I use my nokia 77013:21
Jaffadwd: no, true. But I'm not a fan of waiting. Also, everytime I see a subject of "Nokia Developer Device Program" in my inbox, I get excited.13:25
dwdJaffa: And I certainly agree with keesj - even developers with very limited involvement and visibility (like, for instance, me) will still hold off buying an N800 on the off-chance they'll get one cheap.13:28
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Jaffadwd: yeah, I can't imagine any developer going out and buying one full price whilst there's still a chance... unless explicitly told something like "Developer discounts will not be issued until Q2 2007"13:29
abso Nokia is essentially denying its own marketshare across developers by not being clear with Developer Device Programme :-) Everyone who could otherwise already contribute to Nokia's revenue by buying N800 is waiting :-)13:31
dwdJaffa: You don't think most developers would be happy to wait? (Or at least, make more noise on the lists to bolster their chances)13:32
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Jaffadwd: Well, depending on how urgently they wanted one/what that date was etc.13:36
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keesjI just would like everything to go back to normal , I was quite exited about the new device. but I preferred to talk about my programming problems.13:45
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keesjjtokash, where you using gwt for the minireader?13:51
JaffaYay, mud-builder code checked into Garage:
JaffaIt's not yet usable, but still...13:53
keesjwhat does openembeded use as tool?13:54
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guerbyjust got my N800 yeah !14:12
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Jaffaguerby: cool14:13
guerbyJaffa, I did not check update / add repo yet, will do after work tonight14:14
guerbyJaffa, any thing known to be broken?14:14
JaffaNAFAIK, but I don't have one14:16
JaffaThe more "always on" nature that Karoliina describes in her blog sounds good14:17
guerbyJaffa, there is no cover indeed, don't know what it will do on battery live14:19
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lardmanIs it possible to get an xterm (or ssh) up on an N800 yet?14:30
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lardmanIf so, could someone run a test program for me to return some floating point data14:30
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florian_kcgood morning14:35
lardmanhi Florian14:35
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vittoriogreat, got my N800! thanks UPS (and for postpone deliveryday to tomorrow, and then deliver today. almost didnt open the door)14:55
vittorioand the buttons are not cheap like other write!14:56
Jaffavittorio: good to know14:57
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Jaffatigert: you're doing a remarkable impression of a bee today15:01
tigertvittorio: I think they are not that good, but hey, nothing is perfect15:01
tigertJaffa: :)15:01
vittoriotigert: i think the front buttons are good. the top could be better but not cheap15:03
tigertvittorio: yeah15:03
tigertit definitely is a nice device15:03
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lelevittorio, according to UPS mine is still in Brussels, so the one i have now in my hands must be someone else's :)15:31
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vittoriolele, heh, next time i know not to take delivery status to serious15:42
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|tbb|is it possible to let kismet just sniff open networks?16:00
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framerateYou got Kismet on the N800 by chance?16:17
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|tbb|nope just on the n77016:22
|tbb|but i think its a matter of days they will rls a n800 version ;)16:22
frameratethese "days" are killing me, since I can't get online with my blackberry through WAP, and I can't get online @ work due to VPN16:23
framerateso I only get to use this thing for like 3 hours at home every night16:23
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HGFBI've just ordered an 800 today. How much faster than the 770 does it feel to you guys?16:24
framerateI never had a 770, but I know on the 800 I had 2-3 browser windows open, XChat, and file manager with no noticable slow down16:26
framerateI hear multitasking was harder on the 77016:26
HGFBIt was. The 770 is pretty underpowered. Nice but slow16:27
HGFBHandily I found someone to buy mine :)16:27
framerateAny idea what happened to stinghorn VPN software? Site's been down all week....16:27
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framerateI really need a one touch VPN GUI client16:27
framerateNice work on the sale :)16:27
HGFBHas anyone tried Nethack on the 800?16:27
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HGFBI posted it for sale on a forum I hang around on. Within 30 mins I'd had three people wanting to buy the 77016:28
HGFBNow I just hope Nokia do a good job of 1day deliveries :)16:28
framerateNice :)16:28
framerateDid nethack run on the 770?16:28
framerateI'll try now16:30
framerateI know doom works, though :)16:30
HGFBDoom runs on everything :)16:31
frameratethank god for that!16:31
frameratenethack works, it appears :)16:32
bergiequite a few games listed...
HGFBThanks Framerate.16:34
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framerateHGFB: no prob :) If you hear anything about VPN, Kismet, or Maemo Mapper please let me know :)16:34
dragornwhat about kismet?16:35
framerateworking on the N80016:35
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dragornI don't have one yet to do dev on but I'm told it's the same chipset and drivers16:35
framerateare you the dev for the program?16:36
dragornand someone in here tested it the other day and said it works fine.  You'll need the SVN version of course, until the new release with the 770 hooks are added.16:36
dragorns/are added/is released/16:36
framerateAhh, I just tried to download the only version I could find and put it on my memory card16:36
* pahartik would like to see package of latest OpenSSH that supports "Tunnel"16:36
* framerate would like to see a one-touch VPN gui solution so he can get online at work16:37
dragornframerate: Someone made a maemo pkg of a svn build, it's in the garage.  You'd probably do well to update it to the latest svn though.  Or just wait a few days.16:37
framerateI think when I tried to install it I was missing a library.. I'm not too familiar with the debian package management system yet16:37
frameratesame issue with maemo mapper, missing a library (I'm a gentoo user)16:38
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dragornNo idea.  Worked on my 770.16:38
framerateyeah :/16:38
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framerateI'm just not sure what to do when it says "missing dependency blahblah" Like if that means the package it needs doesn't run on N800 yet, or if I just don't have it in my current repos16:39
dragornmissing dep is a missing package16:39
dragornfigure out what package and add it16:39
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framerateWell yeah, but sometimes it seems it's asking for an older version of what I think I have. I may be wrong though.16:40
framerategonna work on it some more today16:40
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JaffaInteresting question on ITT: XT9 handwriting recognition engine was rumoured to be in the N800/OS 2007 before release. Any sign of that in the finished product?16:43
danielsJaffa: it's not in there, no16:44
Jaffadaniels: fair enough.16:47
koenJaffa: got your discount yet?16:48
JaffaPresumably you can't say any of: was it tried and rejected? did it miss the deadline? is it planned?16:48
Jaffakoen: nope. you?16:48
koenJaffa: nope16:48
JaffaAnyone else?16:49
Jaffa<deathly silence />16:49
framerateI'm honestly really surprised items liek this N800 don't have a built in VPN client, since they seem so keen on getting you connected everywhere16:49
danielsJaffa: honestly, i don't know, but if i didn't, i wouldn't be able to16:50
Jaffadaniels: :)16:50
* Jaffa pictures daniels as Donald Rumsfeld talking about known-knowns, known-unknowns, unknown-knowns and unknown-unknowns. Oh, and pretty-gnomes.16:51
Jaffaframerate: agreed. PPTP seems to be prevalent in Windows Mobile devices (unsurprisingly)16:51
lleDR is my idol16:51
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keesjscreen shots on this page would be welcome
keesjhow will that page look if there are different versions for the 2006 and 2007 release?16:55
DisconnectJaffa: i got 3, gonna build a full-size sliding-numbers puzzle with a little duct tape :)16:55
keesjis that the green/grey arrow thing?16:55
keesjDisconnect, are you searching for something you can do?16:56
Disconnectno, i'm taunting Jaffa with fake dd codes16:57
keesjI am willing to pay anybody 100 euro if they port gcompriz16:57
Disconnecttomorrow i'll probably be looking for something to do. today i probabsy have to go 2 hours to the data center :(16:58
keesj(this is not a joke)16:58
framerateI have 50 USD at least for a intuitive VPN client (or interface to openVPN if possible)16:58
ntrsNote to Nokia: Nokia needs to release Java Applet support for the N800.17:00
dragornnow that the jvm is open that's slightly more plausible, but it'd still be slow as hell until someone writes an arm JIT17:00
||cwjava needs to have stable armel support17:00
keesjntrs, what version of applets would you like to be supported?17:01
||cwit's not nokia's fault that java isn't stable17:01
dragornand you'll still thrash your 128 meg of ram pretty quick :P17:01
lle1.0.2 ought to be enough for anyone17:01
keesjjava not stable?17:01
||cwsun java on arm?  no17:01
||cwthough now that it has an OSS license, maybe someone will fix it17:01
* lle goes into evil hacker mode and starts preparing destabilization patches for java17:02
ntrskeesj, I have no idea.17:02
||cwand just saying "java" is too vauge, there is sableVM that is pretty stable on arm, but it is fairly small subset of sun's java17:02
ntrsThere is this authentication plugin that I have to use on a daily basis.17:03
||cwand so not really all that usefull, unless you code specificaly for sable17:03
keesjrewrite it to javascript or flash17:03
||cweven java on cell phones, you have to code specificaly for the device/family of devices.  java's "run everywhere" promise is crap.17:04
ntrskeesj, I did not write it.17:04
keesjno , my bank also requires java to be installed17:04
||cwheh, I'd get a new bank17:04
||cwmy bank and crdit union site both work great on the 77017:05
keesjcw to be honest I am already very happy it works under linux/firefox17:05
||cwyeah but it requires signed client side code17:06
||cwwhich sounds liek a security hole waiting to happen to me17:06
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||cwafterall, decompiling java is trivial17:07
glass_requiring java for bank access is stupid17:08
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VeggenI don't think bank id is dependent on secrecy of the java code.17:09
danielsmgedmin: ah, schooltool17:09
mgedminhi, daniels17:09
Veggenbut I still agree, it's stupid ;) I sort of know why it's done, but I think it could be done in other ways :)17:10
danielsmgedmin: hullo17:10
danielsmgedmin: (i used to work with stevea)17:10
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mgedmindaniels: I remember you from mataro17:10
danielsmgedmin: oh.  i don't remember at all, sorry ...17:10
daniels'twas many moons ago17:10
mgedminwell, I'm not a celebrity like you :)17:10
mgedminI mean hacking X, that's something17:11
keesjVeggen, it is not the secrecy of the code17:11
keesjit is usually a real cryptographic solution to prevent login codes to be sent over the wire17:12
Veggenyah. I know.17:12
keesjbut I guess with web 2.0 it can be done in javascript17:13
VeggenI work in the business :) (I'm working for a company that runs IT services for a bank with a million internt banking customers, myself)17:13
keesjOops :)17:13
||cwso what's ssl for then17:13
X-Fade||cw: That used to be too insecure for banks :)17:14
dragornIt's some combination of trying to use their own crypto (which I don't trust.  Few people can implement crypto properly.) and beating spyware/brute login attempts (sometimes it works, othertimes, no.  spyware can snapshot the pixels around each mouseclick to steal your pw if you type it in that way)17:15
||cwssl is as secure the keylength you use when you make the cert17:15
Veggendragorn: bank I am involved in, was the victim of a malware attack in december. trojan on Windows PCs that just hijacked the PC and Internet Explorer once the user had successfully logged in to the bank.17:16
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Veggendragorn: I guess the result will be to require new authentication before you do external transfer of money.17:17
dragornVeggen: Yup.  It happens.  Problem is, it's not preventable by using java.  You can stopgap one type of attack, but you can't prevent something that snapshots the screen to record the pw graphically (and those exist), etc17:17
Veggendragorn: hey, of course not. I'm not advocating java here.17:17
dragornVeggen: I know why they do it, theres just no effective solution when you're dealing with significantly owned workstations ;/17:17
keesjmy bank sends sms to my phone with code and a list of changes17:18
Veggenkeesj: Sounds secure enough, if you trust SMS.17:18
||cwthere's one solution, require not using IE617:18
VeggenSMS hasn't really been deemed hackworthable.17:18
VeggenBut if people start trusting it? I mean, with these windows-phones, these days, can't these phones be hacked also? Of course, you'll need to match hacked phones with hacked Windows PCs, that's not so easy, perhaps ;-P17:19
keesjbut if they want to intercept an sms that is a different thing right? they would need to hack in a different place17:19
X-FadeVeggen: Well I can send an SMS with every from number I want. But you would have to be faster than the bank too :)17:20
Veggenhmm, gotta go.17:20
keesjso you really need to target that iphone:)17:22
keesjand you can always use vnc :)17:23
glass_there was some mms exploit in wm17:23
glass_though not that reliable or easy to execute code with it..17:23
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dedekindhey, how are people supposed to apply for 99 Eur N800 vaucher?17:42
dedekinddidn't find any description17:43
suihkulokkisee topic17:43
lardmanDoes xterm work on the n800, or ssh, or any way of getting to the command line? I'm interested in comparing the output of some tests on the softfloat vfp and hardware vfp implementations17:43
frameratelardman:  yeah it works17:43
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lardmanframerate: Can I give you a link to a binary to try (or source if you have a toolchain running for it)?17:45
lardmanframerate: Source here:
framerateI don't have the toolchain stuff set up yet, Haven't had a chance to work on any dev stuff yet17:47
frameratethis is my first tablet :)17:47
lardmanframerate: To be compiled with: gcc -DDP -DTEST -mfpu=vfp -mfloat-abi=softfp machar.c, binary here (if you're willing to trust me ;) ):
koenlardman: '-mfloat-abi=softfp' shouldn't be needed for eabi17:49
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lardmankoen: But how does the toolchain know whether to generate softfloat or hardfloat then?17:50
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lardmankoen: Ah, I see what you mean, just that that bit is unncessecary, fair enough17:50
trenkalardman: email, please17:52
lardmantrenka: s dot g dot pickering at bath dot ac dot uk17:52
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framerateSo I can get online through my cell phone on my laptop using a modem script, is there any way to do that on the tablet?17:58
frameratenormal BT DUN doesn't work17:58
mgedminit should work17:58
frameratewell I'm not paying 100 dollars for a cingular unlimited data plan...17:59
framerateI'm just using the handheld's WAP account17:59
JaffaWe should publicise a new method for getting an N800 discount code, some labyrinthine tortuous adventure for someone to complete. Preferably one which results in us a) getting some cash, b) looking like geniususeususses, c) getting some high-profile, wanted feature on Maemo.17:59
lleyou're not talking about setting up an x-rated website, are you?17:59
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danielsmaemo completely naked -- only booting into initfs?18:00
Jaffalook at the init on *that*18:01
lardmantrenka: Many thanks18:02
framerateThe dialup I setup on my laptop is here:
frameratescript is here:
framerateif anyone has any idea if it'd be possible on the handheld18:03
framerateI'm not much of an ASM guy >.>18:03
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c0ffeex-rated website sounds good :D18:03
lardmantrenka: Interesting, the data it returns is different to that from my 770, which is most probably a difference caused by the hardware (as a PXA255 produces the same output as the 770 does)18:04
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lardmans/hardware/hardware vfp18:05
* Jaffa was thinking more geeky, to be honest: "To apply for an N800 discount you need to complete one of the following challenges: a completed, auto-Hildonising, Mono or Java environment running on Maemo; an image viewer and processor with similar interface to the iPhone's photos app (tip: use a hardware button as a modifier instead of multitouch); ..."18:06
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* mgedmin has an idea for a hack: an application that intercepts mouse events and draws fake fingerprints on top of other apps18:07
mgedminwould probably need a composition manager running, which might not be feasible on the 770 :/18:07
dwdIncidentally, that remind me - I had to do a stackload of research on the iPhone today, and noticed that Apple aren't, currently, doing anything to allow third party developers onto it.18:09
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||cwyeah i saw that18:12
||cwwhich makes it not a smartphone18:12
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dragornI still question if it really runs OSX, or if it just runs a graphics layer that looks the same.18:13
dragornWhich wouldn't be answerable without a SDK18:13
mgedminthe website claims it runs OSX18:13
dwddragorn: There's some stuff about Apple telling OS X developers to write apps that are "resolution independent", which implies that they will open up the platform, and also that it's OS X.18:14
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* Jaffa 's betting on the same Mach kernel and some of the high level graphics libraries, but most of the stuff between not being there. Is it really "OS X" as people know it if it doesn't have the Dock, Finder, Menubar, window manager etc.18:15
lleI wonder if their universal binaries will soon include ARM versions in them as well..18:15
dragornCould be.  I just wonder how close it is to "really osx" with the same kernel and libs.  Then of course we get into the semantics of "if its the same API, is it the same OS".18:15
lleno reason why it couldn't be the same kernel and basic libs18:16
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llehmm, maemo SDK will soon have some serious competition from Xcode ;)18:17
llebut it's good, I mean, then we'll just have to make it better. Quite simple.18:20
danielswhat could possibly go wrong18:20
lleeverything, as usual :)18:20
llebut this would be boring if there's no challenge18:21
framerateIs anyone using cingular to dialup via bluetooth by chance?18:22
framerateand is there more info someplace when it says "remote server error, try again" ?18:22
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XetraHi all18:22
espois java availibe for the n800?18:23
Xetrajust a question : is the dPad of the n800 is multi directional ?18:23
danielsXetra: yes18:23
||cwjava is availble on no linux arm device18:23
lle||cw: I'm not sure that's true? I seem to have a hazy idea of seeing a presentation from actually more than one company touting montavista linux + qtopia + java18:24
Disconnect||cw: didn't the japanese zaurus image have java?18:24
Xetracool :)18:25
||cwlle: sablevm used to work, but is greatly outdated now and was always only a small subset of java18:25
partI can't see why anyone would want java on the tablet18:25
llepart: to use up the extra 40+ megs of RAM that are currently free?18:25
espopart, :) for coding on trip to school18:25
||cwthe "killer" part of java, swing, has never worked on arm18:25
lleswing is definitely a killer18:26
llea murderer I might add18:26
danielsyou've got that right18:26
||cwso many of the corss platform java apps use it though18:26
espobecause the device is small and not that big like my laptop18:26
Jaffa||cw: I got a Swing app running last night on my 770 using Classpath18:26
JaffaNot exactly usefully, of course. AWT's a much better bet. SWT could be interesting, too.18:26
||cwso without swing, you have to writ to the device anyway, so why bother with java18:26
daniels||cw: yes, the legions of cross-platform java apps18:26
lleforeign legions18:27
llealiens with predators18:27
lleI wish it was '96 again, when I still believed Java could be something for client side18:28
* mgedmin never believed in Java18:28
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mgedminalthough Java did at least one good thing: it established the credibility of garbage-collecting interpreted languages for serious use18:29
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lleyeah, well. it kinda went to hell because Sun wanted to implement *everything* in java, not bothering to properly bind to existing stuff. At least that's what killed it for me.18:33
lleand the native interface (before JNI) was so bad, so bad.18:34
llenot sure how it looks today18:34
danielsit still looks like java18:37
c0ffeemainly licence issues18:37
danielsby which i mean, solaris from 199218:37
lledaniels: ?? the native C call API?18:38
lledaniels: wtf you're talking about? ;P18:38
lindi-lle: look at jnode if you want an OS written in java :)18:38
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llelindi-: I'll pass, thank you :)18:39
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dragornInteresting conversation on dailydave re: the iphone cpu and if its really osx, to pop back to the previous discussion briefly.  Lots of supposition and a post from an apple guy who says "we're hiring security ppl if you want to know how it really works"18:42
framerateAnyone know where the phone dialup scripts are stored on the 770/800 ?18:44
koendaniels: is os2007 compiled for armv5te or armv6?18:44
framerateoh dang, I guess it's a moot point because my xterm just stopped working ;(18:45
danielskoen: 618:46
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koendaniels: ok, thanks18:46
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|tbb|will the opera browser under n800 support ajax ?18:58
_matthias_kind of a strange question |tbb|18:58
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florian_kchi jpetersen19:00
_matthias_ajax is just a buzzword ... i mean if the javascript code is "light" enough opera on 770 already supports ajax19:00
jpetersenhi florian19:00
_matthias_perhaps 800 does a little bit better due to more memory19:00
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gpdso why doesn't the contacts app have physical address information... does the real world no longer matter?19:19
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mgedminwhy isn't the contacts app open source, so that eager developers can add physical address information?19:28
MDKmgedmin: address-book?19:28
mgedminprobably, yes19:29
MDKthat's actually a good question19:29
MDK(why it's not)19:29
MDKmgedmin: address-book uses evolution data server as the backend19:30
MDKso it actually has fields for addresses, etc.19:30
MDKit's just that UI doesn't support it19:30
mgedminso, in theory, somebody could write a replacement UI19:30
mgedminI just wonder, it's not like a contacts app is something ground-breaking that must be closed to protect trade secrets19:31
MDKmaybe Onne is just an lazy ass or something19:31
MDKtko: hints?19:31
koenmgedmin: doesn't o-hand contacts use the same backend?19:31
mgedminjust the thought I had a second ago19:32
mgedminnow googling for it19:32
danielsit does19:32
mgedmin"contacts" and "dates" are such ungooglable names19:32
koen(I know it uses eds, but maybe nokia osso'd eds-dbus)19:32
mgedminalthough dates does give me the result on the first google page19:32
JaffaAre we sure the address book isn't open source in the stack of stuff that koen's got unpacked?19:32
mgedminhm, last time I looked for it was in mistral, and it was in the non-free section19:33
koenmgedmin: the kernel was also in the non-free section19:34
* mgedmin reads
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tkoMDK, about why onne is lazy? he's not lazy, he's complaining about treeview19:39
danielsyou don't say19:41
tkostarting point is that all UI is closed to give us competitive edge in the user interface, or user experience19:41
danielsi think the reasoning there is something like avoiding cheap knockoffs19:41
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lleI think scratchbox prevents cheap knockoffs from happening well enough19:42
Jaffatko: After Apple's demos, I don't think you've got much to worry about ;-/19:43
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MDKJaffa: it's not that "we" in particular want to keep it closed19:43
JaffaMDK: Understood.19:43
JaffaBelieve me, I've got lots of sympathy for you all.19:43
tkoMDK, come on, "we" definitely want to keep all our sketch related trade secrets secret ... right? :)19:44
mgedmin does not have a deb for contacts19:45
tkoaddressbook is an integral part of the whole contacts/chat/voip stuff which doesn't really exist anywhere else right now, so it makes some sense to keep it closed for a while19:45
gpdso it isn't a policy decision -- 'this device is not a PIM - do not attempt to use it like one'19:45
danielslle: haha19:46
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mgedminI'd forgotten that osso-addressbook can also show contacts stored on a jabber server (or two)19:46
tkogpd, the product isn't PIM, but then how much we support / enable other people to turn it into one is a different issue19:47
Jaffatko: maybe, I think in the next few months Nokia will have to open source more so that enthusiastic hackers can try and help get the UI up to a competitive level with iPhone (which sucks compared with 770/N800 in many ways, but users like pretty, usable, interfaces))19:47
JaffaWhich is the point Dave Cridland made on maemo-dev just now, in fact.19:48
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mgedminjust establish a project called Harmony with the goal to recreate all closed Nokia apps for maemo19:48
mgedminthen sit back and wait19:48
mgedminit worked with Qt and Java19:48
lleyeah, right19:48
MDKJaffa: with all respect to open-sourcing (in which I fully believe), it doesn't help to get good ui done19:48
danielsmgedmin: poky + contacts + dates + minimo; all it misses is the video and voip stuff19:48
koenJaffa: or Dave Neuer's point19:48
mgedminwhat's poky?19:49
ferulohaha, the harmony for QT!!! I remember my first opern-soruce co-worker starting it!19:49
koenmgedmin: o-hands distribution/gui19:49
gpdmeanwhile i am back to searching .vcf files by hand to find my dentists floor number while waiting for the elevator - text files forever!19:49
Jaffakoen: Oh yeah. Where'd I get the name "Cridland" from?19:49
danielsJaffa: dwd19:50
JaffaAh :)19:50
* Jaffa apologies to dwd and Mr Neuer both19:50
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JaffaMDK: I probably agree, but to be frank if you've not got the time/skills/inclination in-house at worst case it stays still, best case you get one hacker who's passionate enough to really give some improvements. Admittedly, it's a long shot; but it's a matter of perception too: why should a UI expert hacker give their time and expertise to Nokia for free, with no guarantee of it being accepted, and nothing in return? (They can't even fork something and let a19:52
* Jaffa stops choir-preaching.19:53
MDKJaffa: yes, in this sense you're right19:53
MDKit's about creating possibilities19:53
koenJaffa: "not overnight"19:54
* koen hides19:54
lleit should be about creating a superior product, it takes time19:54
* Jaffa grins19:54
JaffaFor example, there's nothing stopping people suggesting new layouts, GUIs and UI concepts to Nokia now. Except it's giving them stuff for free. Open source is about sharing, not just giving.19:55
llepeople just need candy, which is fine, kids don't complain half as much if they're busy stuffing themselves with something sweet19:56
MDKlle: heh19:56
danielsyou'll make a great father some day19:56
MDKlle: dude, you made my day19:56
Jaffalle: that's true ;-)19:56
JaffaSo talking of bribery, where're the developer programme details? ;-)19:57
tkoJaffa, "don't call us, we'll call you" isn't enough detail? :)19:57
koenJaffa: you say "I have bribes" and nokia will call you :)19:58
JaffaIt's a *level* of detail, certainly.19:58
* Jaffa has a headache, but that's probably unrelated.19:58
gpdi don't think you can dismiss all the iphone stuff as just eyecandy -- if it has integration with AddressBook and iCal - that is powerful stuff19:59
llegpd: yeah, but we should be making things that make people go "ooh" and "aah", instead of just providing bloody frameworks20:00
mgedminI was most impressed by the scrolling method in the song list20:00
danielslle: it would help if the frameworks were, y'know, good20:00
lleand that "ooh" factor can apply to the frameworks as well20:00
lledaniels: agreed20:00
gpdmeanwhile -- as a USER -- i can relate my experience this morning and summarize that so far my device needs some work to be totally useful.20:01
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tkoyeah, but when you have something like X in your framework, what can you do...?-)20:01
lletko: a lot20:01
mgedmintko: run compiz on it?20:02
* mgedmin ducks20:02
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gpdLeft home, wifi gone.  arrive at dentist - can't remember the floor -- look in shiny new gadget -- no address info - find .vcf file - extract floor and room number ---20:02
Jaffatko: of course, when I say detail what I really want is an email in the next five minutes saying "congratulations, Nokia values your contributions to Maemo, here - have a discount code"20:03
gpdarrive in dentist -- all wifi in area is WPA.  look at RSS feeds -- try to read some old feeds but 'empty'20:03
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gpdbrowse some other rss feeds -- have face drilled -- make appointment -- realize that my google calendar is not on the device...20:03
gpdmake joke to person about 'new technology '20:04
MDKgpd: oh, so you're actually using the RSS reader?20:04
gpdget out palm pilot -- find the calendar on that -- schedule appointment20:04
lledistributed PIM ;)20:05
mgedmindespite its many shortcomings, the 770 is the most useful handheld device I've ever used, while the palm was the best usability-wise20:05
gpdMDK: yes -- but I need to make it better when offline20:05
framerateOn one hand I'm glad that the tablet has no organization software, but on the other hand I miss it20:05
lardmanSomeone fancy running an ieee754 (floating point) compliance test on an N800 please?: and choose paranoia.vfp.out. Or code here:, compilation command in here:
gpdframerate: i agree - i love the device - and it wouldn't take much to make it KILLER20:06
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framerategpd: I agree. Although I am kinda scared how much use it'll get come June when I get an iPhone .. o.O20:06
gpdsomething like iSync - or everything in google apps -- then sync for offline usage20:06
framerateI figure this will forever be my main GPS device and wifi hacking machine20:06
frameratebut beyond that, I don't know..20:07
gpdbah -- mine is now my only 'laptop'20:07
gpdi ordered the bluetooth keyboard - so i am going to make it fantastico20:07
partmaemo needs a charismatic leader and a reality distortion field20:07
koengpd: that's why I use gpe-calendar on the 770, it downloads the .ics file from webdav and stores it locally20:07
frameratewell, I've needed to send in my macbook pro for a while. As soon as a few more apps come out for the nokia I'll be able to do that20:07
gpdeven if it means using my oown python console apps to sync with ics, vcard etc20:07
framerateWhich BT keyboard you mean gpd20:08
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framerateI'm considering that nerdy laser one, just for giggles20:08
llepart: that wouldn't hurt, but that reality distortion field requires actually delivering solid stuff every now and then20:08
gpdkoen: yes -- i am looking forward to some more apps on n800 - but this is my experience out of the box -- to try and spur some nokia managers into action ;)20:08
partlle: no it doesn't, just look at apple20:08
llepart: apple has delivered, I've been very happy user of their stuff for a few years now :)20:09
gpdframerate: forgetabout those -- i got the sierra fullsize from amazon -- $8120:09
framerateI can't forget about it, it's too neat oO20:09
llewarm fuzzy feelings and all that20:09
gpdframerate: i heard they were almost entirely useless20:10
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Jaffalo Aleksandyr20:10
framerategpd: that sierra doesn't look too bad, though...20:10
Aleksandyr'morning Jaffa20:10
framerateI ordered a 4Gb SD card today for 46 USD, I hear the N800 is recognizing them20:11
framerategonna give it a shot20:11
gpdframerate: i'll let you know when it arrives -- i am hoping i will not be able to distinguish it from a desktop keyboard20:11
gpdi think i'll wait for the 8 or 16G -- 1G is enough for now20:12
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gpd2x16G would be /quite/ nice20:12
MDKhmm, is flash data easily recoverable?20:12
gpdanyway -- i suppose i should do some work--- ttyl20:12
danielsagain, it only recognises non-sdhc cards.  some 4gb cards are still byte-addressed, but it's a bit of a lottery.  you need to patch the kernel to support 4gb sdhc, or anything > 4gb.20:13
MDKerr, I mean... is it possible to recover erased/overwritten data from flash memory20:13
MDK(like it's possible on a hdd)20:13
lleMDK: yes, theoretically, but it's hard20:13
MDKlle: interesting. There was a case in .pl were a band of kids abused a school girl that later commited suicide20:14
MDKthey managed to recover the video they recorded on a cell phone20:14
lleit's a bit similar to hard disks, the previous state is not entirely cleared on erase20:16
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llebut you need quite low level access to the hw20:16
lleof course simply removing a file from the fs doesn't necessarily even erase the blocks20:17
lleso recovery can be trivial20:17
lleso if you're planning to commit a crime, don't document it on a jffs2 filesystem20:21
lleeven if you overwrite the file, you may not actually overwrite anything on the actual flash20:21
lledue to wear leveling20:21
MDKso it "cycles" the blocks to even the electric access?20:22
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lleyeah, in a way yes20:22
* lle is not really a filesystems guy, just happened to sit next to someone who did work with jffs220:23
MDKhah, yeah20:24
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tkoferulo, btw, did you get the video app working?20:38
ferulowe have not coded anything yet :)20:38
tkoI meant the gtk on windows one20:38
feruloahh, it worked, but I was not able to do a videocall, maybe because my laptop lacks of webcam?20:39
feruloI could bring mine tomorrow to the office20:39
ferulohowever it is funy that a win32-gtk app does not run un linux under wine :)20:39
tkoI'm curious whether there's a linux version somewhere20:39
MDKmy gf succesfully got it working on xp20:40
ferulonot here
MDKthough, if you don't have a webcam, it will not work20:40
MDKerr, it'll work with just sound20:40
MDKin other words -- if only one person has camera, no video is shown to anybody20:41
MDKwhich sucks20:41
feruloI didn't even get sound...20:41
MDKeven if it's a protocol limitation, the app should be smart enough to send "blackness" or something20:41
MDKis the app open-source?20:42
tko ha ha :)20:42
danielsMDK: nope, it's not20:42
danielsMDK: it's not a protocol limitation, btw20:42
ferulotko: you know that we are not going to click on anything with the goatse word, don't you? :)20:42
tkoferulo, I know you want to :)20:43
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ferulook, I did!!!20:43
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MilhouseWhy does the blue LED around the d-ped flash when the device is locked?21:01
glass_coolness i suppose21:01
Milhousehmm.. :)21:01
tkobecause it can21:02
frameratebecause geeks love blue glowy things :)21:02
MilhouseI like them to have meaning - what does that make me?21:02
frameratea smart geek?21:03
roopeit blinks when it is connected to the charger.21:03
Milhouseno charger in site21:04
roopeWell. It's the bat signal.21:04
Milhousebattery power, connected to wifi but no email accounts configured - blink... blink... blink...21:04
MilhouseTo the bat cave?21:04
MilhouseOk, that is cool :)21:05
tkoI think it blinks to indicate there's still battery left21:06
MilhouseOn the whole, I think the N800 is a great improvement so far (although the buttons on the top are just crap - what muppet with tiny fingers designed those, eh?) And to lock the device - which you now need to due to lack of case - it means pushing a tiny and *recessed* button. Genius. Other than that, great upgrade.21:06
Milhouseand what happens when there's no battery left???!21:07
tkoit stops blinking, of course21:07
Milhouseno way... that's so cool21:07
roopeyeah, locking is too hard currently.21:08
Milhouseneeds a dedicated hard button or shortcut, but not one of those on top21:08
tkoonly a little bit IMO21:08
Milhousei may be able to train my fingers in time21:08
Milhousenot sure about the theme - Plankton in Sardine looks better (a bit more candy/vista/aqua-like)21:09
tkoit's good the power button is embedded but it's a little bit too small21:09
Milhousethat wouldn't be a problem if it weren't now so important21:10
HGFB2Has anyone had a problem installing an app on the 770 where afterwards clicking the icon in extras does nothing?21:15
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frameratewhich app HGFB2 ?21:17
frameratenethack works for me21:18
frameratedownloaded from the application catalog and put it on my SD card21:18
framerateand then ran the .deb file21:18
konttoriHow about configuring home key keep pressed 3 secs to lock. click home and select to unlock?21:18
HGFB2It used to work for me too. It's obviously a bug somwhere on the 770. I had the same problem when I first got it installing FBreader21:19
Milhousekontorri - that, or maybe a double click of home key21:19
HGFB2Wonderful. I think my charger has died21:19
konttoriMilhouse: I think there needs to be to separate keys / elements there so that accidental unlocking in pocket is not so frequent21:27
konttoriMaybe home and slide finger on screen?21:27
tkomaybe power and select button?21:28
Milhouseknotorri - agreed... perhaps home + d-pad enter within 1 second to unlock?21:29
frameratekonttori: slide finger for lock... someone watched the iPhone presentation :)21:29
konttoriIsn't the current setup like power + dpad middle?21:30
roopeoh shit, mine blinks also.21:30
konttoriAnd that is troublesome on N800?21:30
Milhouseroope: hah!21:30
roopeOh, yes. It indicates that the device is on.21:30
Milhousekontorri: the power button is very small, and recessed so fat-fingers Milhouse has a bit of a problem...21:30
danielsthat's configurable, btw: go to the display settings (the little brightness icon in your system tray).21:31
roope(I'm not actually joking :)21:31
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danielsroope: yeah, this is standard n series behaviour, apparently.  the n70 or so behaves the same.21:31
konttoriSo, then home + dpad would be better. Or any top key + dpad middle21:31
roopeYes, as does my n73. And they all suck bigtime.21:31
Milhousei thought I read it flashed if you had new email ? how would you know if it flashes all the time anyway?21:31
roopemy e61 does it much better: it only blinks with new messages.21:31
roopeit has a different frequency of blinking. ;)21:31
danielsroope: yeah, 'something happened' is far more interesting than 'still on'21:32
roopeI would agree 100%. :)21:32
guerbyhey you can reorganize the app menu on the N800 (control panel / Navigation / Organize), nice!21:32
Piosame on the 77021:32
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Milhouseknotorri - probably just two easily accessible keys that are not right next to each other would be good enough to unlock; how to lock though is tricker - to lock, maybe a loooong press (but not too long to be annoying) or an unusual usage pattern such as double click on home, or double click on the power button itself (it may be easy enough to double click it with practice - i just don't want to then have to pick an option from a menu)21:33
tkojobi, is it possible to disable the thumb sized menus in desktop? I'm starting to dislike the feature even more as I always use thumb + rocker :-/21:33
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guerbyPio I don't see navigation, where was that on the N770 ?21:34
guerbytko what is "rocker key" ?21:34
Milhouseparticularly when "still on" is sucking up juice (though i know the LED doesn't use much power, but still...)21:34
tkoguerby, d-pad21:34
tkoguerby, arrows21:34
roopemilhouse, yeah.21:34
danielstko: just crank the thumb pressure threshold up21:34
Pioguerby, ill look.. yeah it might have been 'task navigation' or something...21:35
roopeKeeping the system running to tell it to blink.21:35
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danielsroope: tbf, it doesn't schedule any userspace tasks21:35
Milhouseguerby - in Control Panel21:35
tkodaniels, ...and maybe use select to get the fkb .. might work21:35
guerbyMilhouse, yep then?21:35
danielstko: mm, true21:35
tkothough I doubt the UI lets me set the threshold that high21:36
Milhousein the 770 you had more limited ability to modify the menu21:36
guerbyPio, I have both a N770 a N800 I'm comparing :)21:36
danielstko: you can write a trivial app to do so :)21:36
Milhouseit just said "Web" and "Organize" on the 77021:36
danielstko: though maybe it's easiest to just hack the menus to pop back into normal mode when you press an arrow21:36
Pioyeah its control panel -> Task navigator -> Organize21:36
Milhouseon the N800, you can swap Web and Contacts, as well as Organise21:36
Piointerestingly, up until scirocco, organize was spelt "organise"21:37
guerbyMilhouse, still don't find organize on N770 weird21:37
Pioguerby, control panel -> Task navigator -> Organize21:37
guerbyPio, thanks! I didn't knew it was there after 10 month of use :)21:38
Milhouseguerby as pio says - it's last in the list21:38
Pionp.. yeah when i got my 770 i couldnt find it either, but i knew it must be there somewhere.. finally found it after an exhaustive search21:38
Pioi grew real tired of the 'extras' folder :)21:39
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guerbyPio mine just reached full height but not enough to bother the extensive search :)21:40
guerbyanyway I found it right away on the N800, the control panel is a bit more friendly I find (small things...)21:40
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guerbythe thumb kb feels much more accurate on the N800 (even with N770 setting to lowest pressure)21:44
guerbymay be it's my 770 screen that's more dirty, anyone sharing the experience?21:45
Pioi always just figured my fingers are too big heh21:47
guerbyPio me too on N770 but it looks like N800 just works fine21:48
tkohmm, the nokia tileset for nako is pretty boring21:51
frameratetko: agreed. The extra one isn't too bad21:57
mgedminwhat's nako?  the new game in os2007?21:58
framerateit's just a memory game21:58
tkomgedmin, it's available in the default application installer repository configuration21:59
tkomaemoblocks is the new game21:59
* mgedmin imagines a memory game where you have to match pictures of nokia phone models22:00
danielsmgedmin: and also multimedia computers22:00
lledaniels: at some point after you get back from LCA I'm going to demo sb2 to you22:02
danielslle: okay22:02
danielslle: will it do debian packaging by then? ;)22:03
lledaniels: hopefully not :)22:03
danielsokay, sure22:03
danielsthough if i'm going to xdc, you'll have a day (if that) before i turn around and head straight back out for another week or os22:04
* jtra is now deciding whether to port his old (1998) game to n770 with ruby or python22:04
lledaniels: ;)22:04
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tzzhello all, quick question about scratchbox 1.022:06
tzzthe #scratchbox channel had no one active22:07
lardmanfire away, if someone can answer they will22:07
tzzI run sb-conf ls -t and there's no CPU transparency options listed.  Do I need to install something else?22:07
tzzI installed everything in the scratchbox repository already22:07
tzz[sbox-MYTARGET: ~] > sb-conf ls -t22:08
tzz[sbox-MYTARGET: ~] > sb-conf ls -T22:08
tzz[sbox-MYTARGET: ~] > sb-conf ls -S22:08
tzz/dev/pts/8:10858 1087622:08
tzz[sbox-MYTARGET: ~] > sb-conf ls -d22:08
tzz[sbox-MYTARGET: ~] > sb-conf ls -c22:08
trenkatzz: could you post cat /dev/random here?22:08
tzzDebian Etch system22:08
tzzheh seriously now22:08
lardmantzz: trenka's point was that you shouldn't flood the channel, use pastebin or similar22:09
tzzah OK.  Sorry.  Haven't used IRC since 1996.22:10
Fatalback then it was even worse, many were on modem22:11
tzzOK, I'll ask scratchbox-users, thanks22:13
framerateanyone have a downloadable .deb for xterm that works on the N800?22:15
framerateMy N800 can't get online except the 3 hours I'm at my house :(22:15
MilhouseMedia Player on the N800 has a bug - shows a 256kpbs VBR track as 128kbps... and in the Clip menu, putting "Delete" as the first option probably isn't a good idea (I've clicked it twice now by mistake in only a few minutes!)22:16
Milhousestill played the 256kbps track btw22:17
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feruloMilhouse: report the bug!22:20
Milhousewill do, it's only a minor cosmetic issue though - doesn't affect playback22:21
Milhousei did scratch my head and think: "How the hell did that bug slip through..."22:21
Milhouseunless everyone tested with 128kbps tracks :)22:21
pahartikMilhouse: MPEG ADTS AAC track?22:22
kenderI ordered today the n800, soon a new maemo user and developer :)22:23
tzzAnother question: which target should I use for Scratchbox 1.0?  The tips on the Scratchbox website say to use glibc and not uclibc, but there's no arm*glibc* toolchain.22:24
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wheggeDoes anyone know what I need to get added to my Verizon Wireless phone to get the 770 surfing the web via my cell phone?22:26
frameratewhegge: I'm in the same boat via cingular22:27
frameratecan't figure out how to hack it for what I have, and they want 74.95 a month for the full on data plan22:27
dwdGenerally, you need Bluetooth DUN on the phone, plus some form of data plan.22:27
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dwdframerate: What currency is that?22:27
framerateI can use what I have now to get on via a script on my macbook, basically fools cingular into thinking it's the handset dialing out when it's actually my laptop :)22:28
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framerateUSD, sorry22:28
framerate(REAL expensive for the slow EDGE network)22:28
dragorndepends on the provider.  In the US, if you have verizon and "get it now" (nearly all phones do now from vzw) you can do 1xRTT speed data (5k up 20k down) for voice minutes22:28
dragornwith sprint you can to similar if you have a generic data plan22:29
dwdframerate: If the macbook works, the 770 should, I'd have thought.22:29
* dwd pays 8 GBP for 10M of GPRS. Never really gets used.22:29
frameratedwd: well that's my problem. The macbook requires a script to work. OSX has a field for "modem scripts"22:29
frameratewithout the script, I think cingular knows it's not the handset dialing out22:30
dwdframerate: Ah... You could always hack what the Maemo scripts are doing.22:30
framerateyeah but 1) I can't find where the scripts are located and 2) my xterm stopped working22:30
hubalp: you there?22:31
framerateand I can't get online at work, they have a ipsec VPN set up :(22:31
wheggeThanks everyone for the responses.22:31
alphub: hey22:31
hubalp: wekit-ui does not install22:32
hubalp: it is missing libxrandr2 and libxslt1.122:32
alpugh. this is what happens when i have no 770 to test on :-\22:33
Aleksandyrdragorn: that's actually a TOS violation on newer phones.22:33
alprandr is certainly not necessary, xslt probably is22:33
Aleksandyrdragorn: Phones that support EVDO are not allowed to tether, period, officially =/ however, they've yet to really check this on a large scale.22:34
frameratethat's my main gripe with this thing... I'm only able to get online for the 3 hours before bed after work :(22:34
frameratebut that's partially my fault I guess22:34
Aleksandyrframerate: which IPSec VPN?22:34
framerateAleksandyr: what do you mean?22:35
Aleksandyrframerate: Do you know the make and model of your VPN system?22:35
alphub: i'll try to put together a fixed package, thanks for testing22:35
framerateI don't off hand, it's a large US University22:36
framerateI can use pptp or ipsec22:36
Aleksandyrframerate: the branding on the PC client?22:36
Aleksandyrframerate: ahh. pptp support exists already22:37
Aleksandyrframerate: not quite. Fanoush's site is down, unfortunately22:38
frameratestinghorn VPN for 770 site has been down too22:38
Aleksandyrframerate: I believe it's based on http://pptpclient.sourceforge.net22:38
c0ffeethere's also the vpnclient22:38
framerateI really think they dropped the ball not including a one click VPN solution22:38
c0ffeei already registered a project at the garage for creating one :)22:39
c0ffeelike half a year ago22:39
myrenVPN is entirely network dependent22:39
c0ffeebut during the last year i didn't have any free time at my hands22:40
myrenther'es twelve million ssl vpn systems, six million pptp, and a couple dozen IPsecs22:40
c0ffeeinclude the existing free clients at least isn't too difficult22:40
Aleksandyrfurthermore, WPA2 (which could be better supported) can be used in place of a VPN, in most places where I've wanted  770 VPN access.22:40
myrenWPA2 dont let you tunnel, afaik22:41
AleksandyrI got the impression that Fanoush had no trouble getting PPTP working.22:41
myrenlog on to public network, WPA2 into you home network?  i dont think so?22:41
Aleksandyrmyren: Many universities and corporations use VPNs to secure wireless networks instead of WPA2.22:41
Aleksandyrmyren: it's not a matter of tunneling, there.22:41
Aleksandyrmyren: as far as home network VPNing, Hamachi works great.22:41
* Aleksandyr should probably fix up and release his Hamachi GUI.22:41
framerateAleksandyr: the university uses the VPN and I've been unable to come up with a way to get the N800 online22:42
framerateopenVPN confused the heck out of me, and I've used linux for going on 6 years now22:42
dragornframerate: Really?  OpenVPN was the nicest one I've encountered.22:42
Aleksandyrframerate: bug Fanoush to update his kernel modules and PPTP package, and you'll be in business shortly ;)22:42
framerate:)22:42 I love thee.22:42
framerate <- link to what linux requires for our school22:42
myrenvpnc was the only client that worked back at my uni22:43
myrencisco 3000 vpn gear22:43
Aleksandyrframerate: yah, Fanoush build that.22:43
dragornvpnc works with the cisco concentrators many .edus work22:43
framerateI was able to get on with gentoo before but it wasn't very fun :/22:43
Aleksandyrsadly, WPI's network requires WPA Enterprise support.22:43
dragornexcept for some shared-secret configs22:43
Aleksandyrframerate: I HIGHLY recommend gnome-network-manager --- shiny happy PPTP config.22:44
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frameratefor desktop use?22:44
Aleksandyroooh, does the N800 support WPA enterprise with certs and such?22:44
Aleksandyrframerate: yes22:44
framerateI normally use fluxbox only, but I dont mind having gnome installed...22:44
Aleksandyrframerate: quite literally made getting on to my corporate PPTP network a five-second procedure.22:44
framerateso I'll check into it if I get my linux laptop working again :)22:44
Aleksandyrframerate: you sound like my gentoo-lovin' co-worker, who I converted ;)22:44
Aleksandyrframerate: while you're checking out gnome, try Beryl too :D22:45
frameratehaha uh oh...22:45
Aleksandyrframerate: converted from Fluxbox to Gnome.22:45
framerateAleksandyr: I don't have any X installs right now, so I'm new to all the new XGL stuff etc22:45
framerateAleksandyr: I just have two gentoo servers right now22:45
Aleksandyrframerate: ahh. Beryl makes the setup relatively trivial, and it makes mac users cry.22:45
obra'$TIMEOFDAY. I'm a new N800 convert. I'm a bit bummed out at the state of ossomail as shipped in bora. Are there other mail clients I should be looking at? Or is it time to set up a dev environment and start submitting patches?22:46
framerateAleksandyr: I also have a macbook pro >.>. Why's that?22:46
Aleksandyrframerate: makes Aqua look ugly ;)22:46
Aleksandyrobra: Ossomail has been awful since its inception on the 770. There are no fully hildonized mail clients available: I get the feeling most of us use webmail.22:47
framerateDid anyone every try the stinehorn VPN? One click connections in the screenshots.. looked exactly what I want :(22:47
Aleksandyrobra: Telomer and Sylpheed do exist for the 770, however.22:47
obraAleksandyr: urk. I often end up reading my mail when I'm entirely out of network range. Yeah. slypheed's UI is..really painful on 800x480.22:48
obraI'd not managed to get telomer running last night. but it _was_ 4am ;)22:48
Aleksandyrobra: welcome to my world ;)22:48
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AleksandyrI wrote an -extremely experimental- solution to the problem, but Telomer's supposedly the same and is Much more elegant.22:49
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obraThere are 4 or 5 small changes that would make ossomail a lot more usable for me. delete-without-confirm dialog. zoomable font sizes in lists and NOT MIXING ALL MY ACCOUNTS INTO ONE INBOX22:49
Aleksandyron the other hand, Telomer did not earn me an A in my Mobile Networking and Applications grad class.22:49
Aleksandyrobra: I believe all three of those have been on the bugzilla since inception.22:49
* obra nods22:50
AleksandyrI am not aware of anyone who uses ossomail as a primary client on the 770.22:50
framerateis ossomail the one included in OS2007?22:50
VeggenI've ended up on webmail.22:50
* obra is very much more of a client-server person than a GUI person. It'd probably be good for me to learn a bit more about building guis on hildon22:51
Veggen(so far)22:51
obraframerate: yes22:51
Aleksandyrframerate: yes22:51
obra ossomail is better than the Series60 default client. barely22:51
Aleksandyrpart of the reason I'm hacking so fervently at PhoneME is because I want the GMail Mobile client.22:51
Aleksandyrobra: J2ME22:53
Aleksandyrspecifically, the open source version thereof22:53
Aleksandyrhowever, it lacks a GTK native peer --- just has QT/Embedded and MicroWindows22:53
Aleksandyrand supposedly the Microwindows native peer is broken and unmaintained22:53
* obra nods22:53
obraas much as java makes me sad, it's certainly a decent answer for "get prepackaged mobile apps"22:53
myrenhow long is it going to tkae to get a N800 if i order from
myrenevidently nokia decided no one in denver would want to buy one at a store22:54
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obramyren: you've physically been to your local compusa?22:55
obrathey seem to have them but not know about them.22:55
myreni've physically been to THREE stores22:55
framerateobra: very true22:55
frameratestore manager told me WE DO NOT HAVE ANY22:55
framerateI told her they did.22:55
obracompusa[Bthre compusas?22:55
framerateso she rudely looked it up and found it22:55
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tzzI ordered my N800 yesterday.  2-day shipping is free, should be here Thursday or Friday.22:56
obratwo hardwareish questions: oh. did anyone ever commercialize the USB booster that would let me use a usb keyboard with an 800?   And is there a USB charging option?22:57
myrenhrm thats acceptable enough22:57
myrenhmm battery powered usb hubs22:57
Aleksandyrobra: 1) no 2) not AFAIK.22:58
Aleksandyrobra: 2) is not possible through the USB port, at least.22:58
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* obra nods. thanks23:00
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guerbyI paired successfully nokia bluetooth keyboard SU-8W with my N800, but for exotic characters I want to use the virtual keyboard, any idea on how to activate it?23:02
guerbywhen the bt keyboard is on it looks like virtual disappears completely23:02
mgedminyou could create a ~/.matchbox/kbdconfig and bind a couple of keys on the BT keyboard to maemo-gtk-im-switch xim/maemo-gtk-im-switch osso-input-method23:05
mgedminwhen the virtual keyboard is active you cannot type with a regular (USB or BT) keyboard23:06
Aleksandyrhow does one get dbus-send --session to work in scratchbox? I keep getting "Unable to determine the address of the message bus"23:06
guerbymgedmin, looks interesting, I'll try to lookup doc on matchbox/kbfconfig (never used before)23:10
mgedminguerby: I found it on the maemo wiki23:11
guerbymgedmin, I found a bruteforce method: close the keyboard, then the virtual kbd appears, then reopen the keyboard :)23:11
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guerbydid anyone try dropbear or ssh on the N800 ?23:20
guerby(xterm too)23:20
Aleksandyrguerby: there is a working version of xterm: I forget which, but it's on the wiki now under OS 200723:21
tzzBah, without the CPU transparency I can't even try to compile anything on scratchbox.  This is frustrating, I was hoping to start writing code.  I couldn't run Scratchbox 0.9.8 because my kernel was too new, now 1.0 is annoying me.  Does anyone have a working 1.0 setup on a Debian machine?23:21
guerbyAleksandyr, hmm Application2007 is empty23:22
kenderany wiki page, where appears the default apps that the n800 carry?23:22
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suihkulokkitzz: I've seen someone else complain about dialog errors in sb, but it was unclear what caused it (wrong terminal settings?)23:22
guerbyAleksandyr, thx, I don't see ssh/dropbear23:23
suihkulokkitzz: but you can use sb-conf for everything you would need sb-menu23:23
tzzyou mean the "dialog-like error 3" error?  I had that one earlier today, because I had no toolchains installed.23:23
guerbykender, what app do you want to know?23:23
Aleksandyrguerby: but xterm is there ;)23:23
guerbyAleksandyr, yes :)23:24
kenderguerby, Terminal, but....others too, a list only23:24
lletzz: you should have a cputransparency devkit package installed23:24
guerbykender, it's pretty much the same as N770 I'd say for the default install23:24
tzzlle: the problem was that I can't select a CPU transparency, there's no QEMU entry as the install docs show.  Where can I get that package?  I don't see it in the Scratchbox repo.23:24
kenderguerby, the problem is, that I'm a new user, without 770 hehe ::)23:25
guerbykender, there is a video windows in the internet call of course :)23:25
lletzz: I think all of the cpu transp mechanisms come in the single debian package23:25
guerbykender, ah ok23:25
suihkulokki apt-cache search cputransp23:25
suihkulokkiscratchbox-devkit-cputransp - CPU transparency methods23:25
guerbykender, let me see if I can get a dpkg -L23:25
kenderguerby, great!23:25
tzzah I see it, excellent!23:26
framerateI wish nokia would let us test the navicore and skype software :(23:26
c0ffeeyou can buy navicore23:26
tzzit wasn't in the install doc, and I didn't think to search for it.23:26
frameratewell not for the N800 yet23:27
c0ffeei think it's just the same23:27
kenderany shoot of navicore?23:27
frameratetableteer has a email link to sign up for the news when N800 version is released23:27
tzzlle: what compiler do you use in 1.0?23:27
lletzz: uhh, I don't use 1.0 :)23:27
frameratec0ffee: does it come with BT GPS? because I already ahve one :(23:27
c0ffeethe software?23:28
c0ffeei think yes, it's a package23:28
frameratedang :(23:28
c0ffeebut i'm no nokia guy23:28
c0ffeedont take my word for truth23:28
tzzlle: ok, I'll keep using uclibc as I have so far.  The scratchbox tips say to use glibc instead of uclibc, but there's no arm-*-glibc* compiler.  Thanks for the help!23:29
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framerateI hope they offer software only... or maybe maemo mapper will be as awesome as I hope :/23:29
lletzz: I'm not sure which toolchain people use with sb1.0, somebody here on this channel ought to know23:30
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tzzlle: not so far, I'll keep asking.  Thanks again.23:31
c0ffeetzz, there is one on maemo.org23:31
c0ffeeeven on scratchbox.org23:31
Milhousecan flasher-2 be used with a n800 to set r-d mode? flasher-3 won't work on a DSL LiveCD (missing
c0ffeeflasher-2.0 needs libusb as well23:32
Milhousewill there be a statically linked version of flasher-3?23:32
Milhouseflasher-2 is static so works fine23:32
c0ffeeah, ok23:32
c0ffeewhy don't you just get a libusb from somewhere?23:32
Milhouseguess i can try copying from my suse box23:33
llewhat sort of box do you have if it doesn't come with libusb?23:33
Milhousei just have visions of spending the next three hours copying one library at a time...23:33
MilhouseDSL LiveCD23:33
llehehe :) ok23:33
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c0ffeewhy not using your suse box?23:34
Milhouseusb works fine on it - just happens to be missing this library as flasher-3 is not statically linked any more... dunno what other libraries might be missing23:34
tzzc0ffee: I wasn't sure I should be using that one, the install docs say to use arm-* targets.  Thanks.23:34
Milhousec0ffee - pain in the arse getting all the cables to reach... it's an old server mobo... prolly the easiest option for the time being though :)23:34
c0ffeetzz, what docs are you following?23:34
c0ffeetzz, mine contain a list of files to grab, and next you execute some shell script that does the rest23:35
guerbykender, downloading xterm...23:35
Milhousehowever - could someone at Nokia put together a statically linked version of flasher-3? all previous versions have been statically linked and worked like a charm23:35
kenderguerby, :)23:35
Milhousenot now obviously, but some time in the near future would be nice :)23:35
c0ffeetzz, do you want a general scratchbox, or a maemo installation?23:36
tzzN800 only, reaaly23:37
c0ffeethen follow this23:37
c0ffeeyou just have to ignore any error/warning that pops up :)23:37
obrac0ffee: it seems to leave out a step about how to start Xephyr23:38
obra(as I was just walking through the same thing)23:38
c0ffeejust copy & waste23:40
obralovely. thanks. I apparently can't read23:40
tzzc0ffee: that's very helpful.  I looked at the Scratchbox docs first and they were really inaccurate.  I'll try the Maemo 3.0 tutorial.23:40
* gpd notes that the application manager seriously needs select boxes23:40
guerbykender, the list is here:
kenderthanks a lot23:41
kenderguerby, I'll put it in the wiki, are you agree?23:41
guerbykender, xterm, nako and media player were installed23:41
guerbykender, no problem. My blog is public domain :)23:41
guerbykender, and I'm in gcc/MAINTAINERS23:42
guerby(FSF paperwork)23:42
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guerbyI still don't have ssh on my N800, surprising no one listed which package to use (I had to sent the list by email attachment to get it out of my N800)23:43
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Jaffaobra: Sylpheed's default views aren't particularly useful at 800x480, but if you use a smaller fonted theme and turn off the message preview it gets better. Obviously I'm still working on it, though, when I get a chance.23:45
guerbyafter a few hours of use, no crash, feels fast and responsive (clearly above N770)23:45
guerbykender, great :)23:45
guerbywhen I do top: 108MB used 18MB free 63MB cached23:46
kenderguerby, so, you are 770 developer?23:46
obraJaffa: ah. very cool. I was running into a lot of "GTK widgets are just too fat"23:46
guerbykender, no (I could but I'm lazy)23:46
Jaffaobra: there are a number of "12pt" themes floating about. At some point I'll see if I can hardwire and add zoom to the Sylpheed font sizes.23:46
kenderguerby, Fonera, I see in your blog23:46
* gpd installs GPE... imports vcards... proceeds immediately to grin mode23:47
kenderguerby, nice gadget, if you open it's ssh, it is very powerful23:47
guerbykender, I have a free wifi in addition to FONera23:47
kenderI see23:47
obraJaffa: excellent. is there an OS2007 native build I should be playing with? I suspect that what I installed is...somewhat out of date23:47
guerbykender, on my N770 I have openvpn + vncviewer, all my family machines are Linux and on the openvpn, so I can control all of them graphically from my N770 (and soon N800)23:47
kenderthat sounds great23:48
guerbykender, ubuntu guyes were nice enough to fix
Jaffaobra: The latest version is still the one at - the source is in Subversion if you wanted to do any hacking23:48
guerbyso that N770 vncviewer does work for ubuntu edgy23:48
guerbykender, I use it mostly while travelling to read PDF and saved HTML23:49
kenderyes, I think I'll use it in the same way23:49
obraJaffa: *nod* I'm just now attempting to get my first maemo development environment up...but suspect this will go smoother when I'm not doing it inside a Parallels VM.23:49
obraI can only take about two levels of virtualization before my eyes bug out23:49
Jaffaobra: probably :)23:49
kenderguerby, and, in the city, in the university for example, to connect to internet a great option I think23:50
obraMy big problem is that I usually live in a Perl webapp world, so this is rather a paradigm shift.23:50
guerbykender, I have also a bluetooth GPS, with maemo mapper + gmap downloads, it's fun23:50
kenderguerby, I heard that it is :)23:51
kenderguerby, do you know spanish?23:51
guerbykender, I was good about 9 years ago, now I can barely read it23:51
guerbykender, where are you from in Spain?23:52
kenderguerby, I'm from spain, that's why I ask you23:52
c0ffeehey Jaffa23:52
Jaffahiya c0ffee23:52
guerbykender, I spent my youth about 10 km from spanish frontier but nearly never went to spain (no man's land on the spain side, that's where the bears are, Ariege)23:52
Jaffac0ffee: got a discount yet?23:52
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guerbyhmm where's the boot messages? dmesg is polluted23:53
Jaffame neither23:53
framerateguerby: any chance you're running mapper on a N800?23:53
kenderguerby, I'm from Basque Country, so, near france23:53
c0ffeeit's still creaping me out23:53
guerbyframerate, not listed yet as working on N80023:53
framerateI know :(23:54
frameratethought maybe you had gotten it working :)23:54
guerbyframerate, I'll be prudent for a few days new-app wise23:54
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c0ffeeJaffa, my software portfolio isn't anywhere as impressive as yours f.e.23:54
c0ffeeJaffa, so I decided to continue on my small projects, try to be a nice guy in general, and just wait23:55
framerateI bought this thing to use with my bt gps, so I'm just anxious :023:55
obraJaffa: are you actually using your slypheed port day to day?23:55
JaffaI suspect it's all a ruse to get everyone running about releasing stuff they're sitting on.23:55
Jaffaobra: not at the moment23:55
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guerbyframerate, :)23:56
guerbyframerate, at least bt keyboard works :)23:56
framerateVery true :)23:57
AleksandyrJaffa:'s working? :D23:57
JaffaAleksandyr: indeed23:57
JaffaTalking of which... mud-builder has just built it's first succesful port.23:57
Aleksandyractually, people requesting updates and giving me feedback is what's lighting a fire under me at the moment23:57
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JaffaI said "go build cal from Debian please" and it did.23:58
Aleksandyrcan't say I'm familiar with the app23:58
Jaffa`cal' just prints a calendar for a year: it was a nice noddy one with not too complex dependencies which wasn't already in Maemo23:59
framerateAleksandyr: well I request you to fix maemo-mapper and VPN software ;)23:59
Aleksandyrno, I meant mud-builder, I do get some use from cal + conky ;)23:59
* framerate knows he didn't write them23:59
Aleksandyrframerate: maemo-mapper is gnuite's baby, and he's hacking on it. VPN software has already been done by Fanoush, and I'm sure he's going to recompile soon ;)23:59

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