IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2007-01-09

koentigert: after upload: [ ] automatically upload [ ] prompt for info [x] do nothing00:00
tigertmyren: you can hack your own cable anyway00:00
revsuihkulokki: i mean, i can see pin layout being the same, but some chipset difference...00:00
tigertmyren: how big would you want the device to be??00:00
myrentigert: its not stereo though, is it?00:00
myreni just want stereo.  :/00:00
tigertdunno about stereo mic if you mean that00:00
myrenstereo headphones00:00
ssvbDisconnect: is this Doom video trailer watchable by the way?00:00
* Tak was looking at
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gpdqgil: did you find wikipedia offline content? I was looking last night but only found a windows version00:01
danielstigert: btw, the flickr plugin for the n70 or whatever works a treat on the n9000:02
Disconnect  ssvb yah looks pretty good00:02
danielstigert: even supports double res00:02
danielstigert: the only things you can't do are tag (bah!) and set private00:02
danielser, privacy00:02
Disconnectsome twitching00:02
tigertdaniels: nice00:02
Aleksandyrgpd: It seems that a KDE app called Knowledge fits the bill00:02
tigertdaniels: I need to try the webcam stuff00:02
Disconnectand the stereo speakers are noticable00:02
tigertI tried briefly but couldnt make it work yet00:02
tigertthe stereo speakers, while fun, are actually quite good considering its a handheld device00:03
tigertit works nicely as a desk netradio00:03
tigertfor for example00:03
tigerttoo bad flash stops when it dims the screen :P00:03
tigertsomeone could write a "undim" app that just pokes the dimming api like maemo mapper does00:04
Aleksandyrtigert: power management still sucks? noooooo00:04
qgilgpd, not yet - thet Knowledge seems to be discontinued at least for Ubuntu (they refer to Hoary, no clue about it in the Edgy repos)00:04
Aleksandyrqgil: doesn't work for you?00:04
Takand a "dim" app as well00:04
Takthat would be a good applet, come to think of it00:04
Aleksandyrwhy not roll dim/undim into a system status bar widget?00:04
gpdqgil: Aleksandyr I found a tomeRaider database too -- not sure about that00:05
tigertAleksandyr: or that00:05
Taktwo buttons, like the canola one: "Dim Now" , "Don't Dim Until Poked"00:05
* Disconnect taps his foot and waits for video conversion00:05
AleksandyrI'd like it if I could toggle brightness, dim settings, and network disconnect settings from a single status bar dropdown00:05
Takin fact, I'll probably do that next time I get some hacktime00:05
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Aleksandyrqgil: download from that link, install libpng3, and you should be OK00:07
qgilgpd: well, has packages per language which is great because my neighbour will be probably happy qwith those 62Mb in Sopanish00:07
kenderonline video converter, is open source?00:07
revJaffa: what do i need to do to add your bookmarklet? i went to your page, click-and-held and simply did "add bookmark" to add it, went to a youtube  page and selected it; i got a blank white page with the loader spinner spinning but nothing happened. it worked fine when i manually pasted in the link into the url of yoursite/submit.cgi?url=http://videourl00:07
ssvbDisconnect: I'm pretty sure mplayer can be optimized for n800 and play video better00:07
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gpdqgil: yes - that is what i found - but not sure if tomeraider is supported by any aps on tablet00:07
revqgil: though no reader for TomeRaider on the 77000:07
Jaffarev: hmm00:07
Disconnectssvb: agreed00:08
danielsssvb: the best video performance you'll get out of the n800 will come through xv in a future sw update00:08
gpdwhat are we calling the collective 770 and 800 these days?00:08
revJaffa: do i need to add the bookmark in another way?00:08
danielsgpd: 'internet tablets'00:08
qgilgpd, rev, I'm going to give to my neighbour an old PC I used a couple of years ago that won't be moved to Finland  :)00:08
roope785 +- 15 :s00:08
revgpd: the non-shitty linux pda! (the crappy one is the zaurus)00:08
Taklol @ roope00:08
revqgil: ah cool00:08
Disconnectrev: c760 wasn't bad00:09
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Jaffarev: no, that's how I've done it.00:10
gpddudes -- we totally need Wikipedia Offline -- HHGG all the way00:10
Veggenbut I'd definitely like more PDA functionality on the tablet.00:10
revDisconnect: i thought it was00:10
Veggenespecially syncing etc.00:10
revDisconnect: the software blew, way worse than the 770, even though the 770 isn't meant for use as a PDA00:10
disqdo you know how fast can the n800 access our old mmcmobile cards? on par to the default 770? kernel image upgraded 770? faster?00:10
Jaffarev: I'll just test it again00:11
revDisconnect: like Veggen said there isn't syncing really, but i personally don't use that functionality on any pda ... but the zaurii were disapointing as hell, imho00:11
VeggenI'd like to sync the address book towards my desktop *and* my cell phone, for example.00:11
Veggenrev: Can be useful.00:11
AleksandyrAbiWord, MaemoTube, PhoneME (Java in general), and WikiPedia offline. Anything else you guys would like me to work on? ;)00:11
Disconnectonly pda i ever got syncing was OZ/c760 (and, sorta, my 9300i. but its a serious hack)00:12
revVeggen: i can see that, i just don't need it... i keep PIM stuff on my phone and that's it00:12
Veggenrev: which you can easily lose anywhere :)00:12
bmidgleyAleksandyr: I feel a little guilty I haven't got more bluetooth audio done--why don't you do that too?00:12
Takif you're going to carry around phone and n785±15 anyway, why not just enter pim data into one or the other?00:13
ssvbdaniels: that's good, I also have plans to try getting xv work on 770, looking into OS2007 xserver and xv sources may help with that00:13
Veggen(granted, you can with the internet table too - that's why you'd keep a copy on your desktop)00:13
revVeggen: well, i have a fancy, expensive phone, and if i lost it i would be pretty much up shit creek... but that said, i just do a database dump and ftp to back up my PDA, no matter the OS it's running. the phone i'm using now is WM5. but like i said, no need for syncing when you have net access.00:13
revVeggen: i mean, ftp'ing a backup file isn't the same as a sync if you want to use it like you do00:13
keesjI want internet over audio00:13
DisconnectJaffa: any sources for vidconvert? its queue is annoying me ;)00:13
Takhmm, I'm going to have to look into using xv with fceu/xmame00:13
danielsssvb: won't work in its current form unless you add support for multiple planes to the00:14
revVeggen:  i don't need to access my PIM data on my computer or another device, so simply backing up the files works just fine00:14
danielsssvb: 770, but the x server will run unmodiifed00:14
Aleksandyrbmidgley: Hmm, I've wanted A2DP for ages. Sure :D00:14
Disconnectcool :)00:14
danielsssvb: (it just won't have xv support)00:14
JaffaDisconnect: I can bundle up the queue processing & CGI component if you'd like00:14
Aleksandyr...we have Plucker support on the 770, right?00:14
Disconnectthat'd rock00:14
* Aleksandyr seems to recall this00:14
Jaffarev: hmm, it seems you're right. I remember having problems before, I thought they'd been solved.00:14
JaffaAleksandyr: yep00:15
AleksandyrJaffa: want to test
Veggenbetter PDF reader. We need that.00:15
revVeggen: that said, the PDF reader on the 770 is hands down the best PDA PDF reader around00:15
revwith the exception of the stuff from Picsel00:15
revbut that is OEM only, you can't buy or download the Picsel viewer or browser00:16
AleksandyrVeggen: between evince and the builtin, I think PDF improvements are low on the totem pole00:16
revbut the other PDF readers available for Palm OS and Pocket PC blow goats00:16
revcompared to the 770's builtin PDF reader00:16
AleksandyrAdobe's own releases suck out loud, comparatively.00:16
revbig time00:16
revi am very happy with the 770's PDF reader00:16
Jaffarev: aha - if you press enter in the URL bar once the bookmarklet has loaded, it works.00:16
revi mean, i wish it had text flowing and saved what page you were on, but at least it is useable- unlike the offerings on PPC and Palm00:17
JaffaDisconnect: a patch to not re-encode a URL it's already got would be *much* appreciated.00:17
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Disconnectnot tonight but yah i can take a look at that00:17
revthe app i used to use for reading PDFs on my Dell Axim was actually not a PDF reader...00:17
qgilgpd, rev, Aleksandyr, ferulo: well, this is probably a simplest option:
revit'd be nice if that existed on the 770, but it needs a host PC, and i like keeping my PDAs completely independent00:18
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Aleksandyrqgil: I was just about to link that.00:18
Veggenrev: it tended to crash for me :)00:18
Veggen(for large PDFs)00:18
revqgil: you could write some scripts to process that pretty easily00:18
revVeggen: ahh, i've not had the problem, but i don't open really huge PDfs ... mostly i read various commie newspapers via PDF00:19
revVeggen: i'd never read a book using a PDF reader, just because PDF readers suck so bad00:19
ntrscan one connect to a 770 or 800 via ssh through the USB cable?00:19
qgilrev: no "I" could not  ;)  but they are a buch of static html pages, isn't it00:19
Takzomg I knew all you minnesotans were commies after you elected jesse ventura!  :-P00:19
revqgil: i mean *one* could00:19
revTak: haha00:19
Aleksandyrqgil: yes, they are, which kind of limits things.00:19
revRepliGo! that's the app i used to use on PPC00:19
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AleksandyrI kind of want to get away from HTML00:20
qgilAleksandyr: not fro,m the point of view of a neat 11 year old schoolgirl without computer nor internet connection00:20
revAleksandyr: and use what?00:20
Aleksandyrqgil: I was talking about wrt the 770. For your needs, it'd be fine :D00:20
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Aleksandyrrev: dynamically generated HTML, or just dynamically generated rich text00:21
Aleksandyrrev: HTML markup adds a -pile- of overhead.00:21
revRepliGo is what mobile PDF readers should be like ... problem is, it doesn't open PDFs but its own format- you have to convert to .rgo on a PC, but it does text flowing really well, it does zooming well, and it even remembers what page you were on- something that no other damned PDF reader does, a lack of a ffeature that is required for use as an ebook reader00:21
revAleksandyr: true00:21
qgilooook, sorry Aleksandyr  :)00:21
ntrsIs network connection via usb possible on the 770 or 800?00:21
revi'd be willing to pay $75 for Picsel Browser on the 77000:21
Aleksandyrqgil: apology not necessary, I should have been clearer when I switched horses midthought ;) (and metaphors)00:21
JaffaAleksandyr: that pdb's coming down awfully slowly00:21
Aleksandyrntrs: yes, but it's kind of annoying: look up USBNet on maemo.org00:21
revthat is a nice PDF (and MS Office, HTML) reader for Palm OS, WinCE and Linux00:21
AleksandyrJaffa: it's only 44mb00:22
revbut it strictly OEM00:22
revwhich is moronic00:22
JaffaAleksandyr: it's at 5%00:22
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* Jaffa knows a couple of the Picsel develoeprs00:22
AleksandyrJaffa: I'm being silly...go ahead and cancel00:22
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Disconnectssvb: aspect is screwey00:23
ntrsAleksandyr, thanks.00:23
Disconnectand av sync is drifty but that might be the converter00:23
gpdsorry for faq - but where is info on 'new image for n800' - i have the .bin but no docs00:23
Disconnectgpd: same command as 770 flashing00:24
danielsi wish this build would friggin' hurry up so i can go home.00:25
gpdDisconnect: what about release notes for the image?00:25
Disconnectgpd: nokia.com00:25
JaffaDisconnect: the other thing which could be done with VidConvert which would streamline it is have the download and the conversion happening at different times (e.g. two queues in different threads)00:26
Pioyou cant really upgrade between maemo releases without re-flashing, right?  i absent-mindedly let apt try and upgrade me to scirocco from mistral and got all hung up on libc6 not having a post-installation script.. i figure now I'll just go ahead and flash a scirocco image.. right?00:26
JaffaEasy to do too, but I've had so little feed back on it I figure people aren't bothered.00:26
DisconnectPio: correct00:26
Piook thats what i figured, thanks00:27
ntrscan I download debs directly from the repos?00:27
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JaffaDisconnect: it's amazing the crap people put in, though. Currently there are two queue entries containing the same <embed .../> bit of HTML, which is *never* going to work. Sigh.00:28
JaffaPerhaps 770/800 users should be bumped up in the queue, too ;-)00:28
Disconnectheh fun00:28
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gpdfor reference: info on new n800 image is:
revJaffa: hey, you're the man- hitting stop and hitting enter makes it work just fine!00:30
Jaffarev: For that, I can blame Opera :)00:30
* Jaffa beds. G'night.00:30
AleksandyrJaffa: some time zone you've got there. 'night00:30
* Aleksandyr may have found a rather hackish but functional way to load wikipedia into FBReader. So much for sleep00:31
ntrswhere are the actual debs in the repos?00:31
ntrsI can't seem to find them using a browser00:31
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revJaffa: yeah, seems like an opera problem00:32
* qgil goes to reflash himself - good night!00:32
revis there an OS 2007 for the 770?00:32
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revis it a worthy upgrade?00:32
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ntrsrev, OS 2007 is only on N80000:33
revah, ok00:33
revoh well00:33
Aleksandyrdrat. Won't work. The search problem is too nontrivial00:36
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bstockanyone have copies of the dropbear-key and dropbear-server files? all the howto gain root pages say to download them from and that site seems to be down00:41
Aleksandyrbstock: I got dropbear from the ApplicationCatalog2006 earlier today without issue, did you try there?00:43
Aleksandyrbstock: at that point it's just sshing is as user:root and password:rootme, probably00:43
Aleksandyr*sshing in00:43
tigertand changing the password to something else00:45
tigertnow, good night!00:45
bstockwell i can't seem to gain root.. sudo su doesn't seem to work, sudo gainroot wants rnd mode00:45
bstockbut yeah the gnupg dropbear file complains about wrong architecture i think.. lemme try again00:46
myrenhas anyone tried sending the N800 higher bitrate movies?00:46
*** Disconnect changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: | 770 updates will continue but Bora (OS2007) is not backported"00:46
myrenmaybe the DSP got bumped too?00:46
Disconnectbstock: becomeroot works on n80000:47
bstocki'm on 77000:47
Disconnect(gainroot hasn't ghanged)00:47
danielsi don't know about other formats, but you can put 400x288 mpeg4 movies through at a bit over 25fps on the n800.00:47
Disconnectworks there too00:47
bstockif i go to file details on the dropbear from AppCat2006, it says 'Unable to install. Package is incompatible with current software'00:48
bstockand it won't let me change password for user or root00:48
bstock(i just upgraded to 2006.2 btw.. had everything working in 2006.1)00:49
dwdbstock: What software is on the 770? OS2006?00:49
dwdbstock: Got a terminal? What does apt-cache show dropbear-sshd (or whatever the package is called) say?00:50
bstock'apt-cache search dropbear' returns nothing00:50
dwdOh, not in a repository, of course. *sigh* Did you download it to somewhere?00:51
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|tbb|what for a chipset the wlan built in from n800 have00:51
bstockok i think i figured out why i suck.. hold on00:51
* dwd is always tempted to suggest typing bin before downloading - showing my age again.00:53
Aleksandyrdwd: I've used that knowledge no less than three times today. Thanks for making me feel ancient ;)00:53
dwdAleksandyr: Didn't think anyone used good old FTP, these days. :-)00:54
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myrendaniels: thats sweet to know.  thats definate improvement over the 770.  400x288 is definately reasonable resolution.00:54
danielsmyren: bear in mind that's 400x288 scaled to full screen.00:55
Aleksandyrdwd: it's cheap, easy, and supported by Solaris without any fiddling. Therefore it's the de facto at work00:55
Aleksandyrironically Solaris is neither cheap nor easy.00:55
dwdAleksandyr: And don't I know it.00:55
dwdAleksandyr: Sometimes I do stuff with people at Sun, and take great delight in suggesting they upgrade their computers to Linux.00:56
myrenSolaris?  its free now.  so long as you dont support.00:56
dwdmyren: Doesn't make it good...00:56
myrenSolaris's zones are _stunning_00:56
dwdmyren: Okay, fair point, they're quite nifty.00:56
Aleksandyrmyren: this is legacy-ish Solaris we're talking about.00:57
|tbb|anyone knows what chipset the wlan card of the n800 uses?00:57
myrenthe fact taht linux has ditched trying to make itself isolation worthy and skipped straight to virtualization is indicative of how shite the linux environment really is00:57
Aleksandyrdwd: being forced to use Solaris has made me debate quitting more than eight times in three months.00:57
myrenAleksandyr: SunOS sucked ass.  we had some 32 and 64 bit risc crap back at uni from sun.00:57
dwdmyren: Well, if you're thinking Xen, that's pretty nifty too.00:57
Aleksandyrmyren: agreed!00:57
dwdAleksandyr: Oh, Solaris positively glows next to HP-UX, trust me.00:58
myrenXen is INSANELY nifty, but its created largely becaues unix never made a proper environment for itself!00:58
Aleksandyrmmm Xen.00:58
myrenif unix had zones 6 years ago, xen would be basically irrelevant for servers.00:58
AleksandyrI would argue that user-driven change has been wholly inappropriate in large portions of the linux community, but meh ;)00:58
myrenAleksandyr: i agree.  :)00:58
myrenlike this desktop war thing?00:58
myrenfuck that00:58
myreni'm joking, but at the same time i'm deadly serious.00:59
Aleksandyrnote to self: port fluxbox to maemo00:59
dwdmyren: Dunno - Xen does the VM live migration thing which frankly makes me want to keep wooden stakes at the ready.00:59
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myrendwd: i dont know what that means (wooden stakes) but its awsome.00:59
Aleksandyrmultiple window managers? Good. Multiple incompatible windowing toolkits? Brutally retarded00:59
dwdmyren: Things used to kill the undead and other freaky stuff.00:59
myrenAleksandyr: I started using wmii recently.  its in the ion/ratpoison/we consume your whole screen vein.  very groovy, wonderfully keyboard abled.00:59
Aleksandyrmmmm keyboard01:00
myrenI just think desktop is besides the point....01:00
myrenwe've sacrificed all development to make linux the supreme god of networked OS's it should be01:00
myrenand instead decided to spend years building fucking START MENUS01:00
myrenFUCK YOU!!!!!!01:00
Aleksandyrmonths building start menus01:00
danielsmyren: settle ...01:00
Aleksandyryears arguing about the merits of different start menus.01:00
myrenok ok... breathing... breathing.01:01
Aleksandyrimagine your rage is a white ball of healing light01:01
dwdmyren: For the most part, it's pretty good at networking. Although I'm told that NFS isn't that good.01:01
Aleksandyrthat's right, your rage as a white ball of healing light ;)01:01
Takto be fair, the people that have been arguing about/building start menus aren't the same people (generally) that would be improving network os status01:01
myrendwd: there's zero infrastructure.01:01
Taknor would you want them to be01:01
AleksandyrNFS is one of the worst ideas I've seen in some time :D01:01
Piowhats nfs have to do with linux01:01
myrenif you have 12 linux computers, you have to hand script each one for every service you want01:01
dwdPio: It does it. Apparently quite slowly.01:01
Piofaster than smb..01:02
danielsbtw, this is rather off-topic, so could we please not clutter the scrollback still further?01:02
dwdPio: But slower than, say, Solaris doing the same thing.01:02
myrenwe had Active Directory like technologies YEARS ago but its always been a nasty hack job01:02
myrenits not about what protocols you pseak01:02
myrenits about hte infrastructure you have in place so that once you're talking you can start enguaging in useful transactions01:03
Aleksandyrmy fault. Generating noise until inspiration strikes and I figure out how to get a2play to work.01:03
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|tbb|any1 got a n800 in here?01:03
myren|tbb|: lol.  i imagine someone does. :)01:03
Takwhat's an n800? ;-)01:03
danielsTak: it's okay, they actually exist now01:03
sp3000does it make coffee?01:03
|tbb|plz tell me what wlan adapter chipset it uses01:03
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Takthey don't exist until I get my DDP email :-P01:04
Aleksandyr|tbb|: same as the 770.01:04
Aleksandyr|tbb|: kismet works out of the box, what more do you want ;)01:04
Aleksandyr|tbb|: allegedly it's the exact same chip.01:04
|tbb|atheros :)01:05
bmidgleyAleksandyr: a2play is pretty gross. if maemo has libalsa, a2dpd would be better01:05
bmidgleyi wrote a2play01:05
Aleksandyrbmidgley: 1) thank you for writing it 2) maemo doesn't have alsa, and alsa-plugin vanished =/01:06
bmidgleynokia did say they wouldn't write a dsp task for the encoder01:06
|tbb|Aleksandyr do u familar with gpsd and kismet?01:06
AleksandyrI'm trying to get a2play/a2recv working on my laptop for debugging purposes.01:06
bmidgleyso maemo will use libsbc01:07
bmidgleyok sure01:07
Aleksandyrlibsbc looks like it'll do the trick, and the gstreamer sink ought to be pretty easy01:07
Aleksandyrthrow in a couple userspace config tools to make it pretty.01:07
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Aleksandyr|tbb|: yyyyyyyes, after a fashion01:07
bmidgleybe sure to get libsbc from its own sf project01:07
bmidgleynot the version under btsco01:07
Aleksandyrbmidgley: already done ;) I read your notes01:08
|tbb|do u know how to import the logged data into maemo-mapper?01:08
Aleksandyr|tbb|: can't say that I do. I've never used maemo-mapper's POI system.01:08
Aleksandyr(I wasn't aware it -had- one.)01:08
|tbb|so u dont need gpsd with kismet then i think01:09
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bmidgleyi use gpsbabel to convert gps formats01:09
Aleksandyrlast I heard, kismet on the 770 requires GPSD in order to log GPS information01:10
|tbb|is it possbible to import the collected data to navicores navi system01:11
Milhousefck me the rants on ITT are beginning to piss me off01:12
Aleksandyrhonestly, I rather like reading them, but I wish they'd stop going so OT01:13
* pahartik attempts to write simple GUI application for Maemo in Python01:13
Aleksandyrpahartik: feel free to PM me if you have any questions.01:14
Milhousenow we have people with 2 posts who bought a 770 three weeks ago going ballistic when everyone pretty much knew a new device was around the corner. Sympathy? I think not.01:14
AleksandyrMilhouse: everyone, in this case, being limited to people who actively follow the 770 user groups.01:14
MilhouseShit happens in the gadget world - this situation isn't exactly unique01:14
bmidgleybuy it when it's brand new or not at all :)01:15
Aleksandyrbmidgley: exactly! I got to have the most cutting-edge internet tablet for two whole years ;)01:15
bmidgleyi'll be selling my 770 and getting an 800 soon :)01:15
disqyeah it's starting to piss me off as well01:15
Aleksandyrtoo bad the 770's resale value is hosed now01:15
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bmidgleythe big leap in capabilities will do that but that's what we all wanted, right?01:16
MilhouseMakes me wonder if it would be cheaper for Nokia to buy off the few people with 770s who are complaining - i imagine the number isn't huge, although impossible to stop everyone jumping on the bandwagon!01:16
|tbb|then give it cheap to a good friend and share using a n device01:16
dwdpahartik: You can grab me for help, too.01:16
Aleksandyrbmidgley: I can run the same linux kernel on five generations of processor.01:17
Aleksandyrbmidgley: same version of windows, too, for what that's worth01:17
MilhouseAleksandyr: Are you talking about embedded devices though - or full blown PC's?01:18
AleksandyrMilhouse: I'm talking about desktop processors. As far as embedded devices, Windows CE supports a fairly impressive set.01:18
MilhouseTry running WinCE 5 on a device that came with WinCE 201:18
disqis there a new price for the (brand new) 770's yet?01:18
Aleksandyrdisq: no discount yet, no01:18
MilhouseI could only just get WinCE 5 to run on an iPAQ HX4700 (640Mhz X-Scale) which came with WinCE 2003SE (previous version to WinCE5)01:19
AleksandyrMilhouse: that's a factor of corporations wanting you to buy revised hardware, not a software limitation.01:19
disqthey must've dropped the price 6 months ago01:19
MilhouseWinCE 5 performance is pretty crap - but that's just down to shoddy software01:19
* florian is impressed.... firefox makes my 2gb ram machine swap01:19
Aleksandyrhrm, my co-worker's HX4700 runs WinCE5 quite nicely.01:19
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Milhouseflorian: there's a firefox bugzilla for that somewhere01:20
Aleksandyrwell, quite nicely by windows standards :D01:20
* sp3000 blames flash01:20
disqmy firefox not only eat up ram but also sometimes "clogs" and won't load a new page/document unless i kill it and run a new instance01:20
AleksandyrI actually installed a restart firefox extension that saves and reloads my session01:21
Aleksandyrit drops me from 400MB used to 120MB used on a fairly regular basis now.01:21
bmidgleymy complaint with gadget progress is when i can't get rid of the old one01:21
MilhouseIn a way I can see where everyone is coming from - we all want the latest and greatest - but Nokia have promised ongoing OS support for 770s so I'm not entirely sure why everyone is so bent out of shape (developers I have more sympathy with)01:21
bmidgleyeg the public transit app for utah only runs on pre-WM5 devices01:21
bmidgleyneed a palmos emulator for n80001:22
Aleksandyrthe situation simply -blows- for developers, and that's going to trickle down to the 770 users shortly.01:22
Aleksandyrfgs there's a new method of packaging that only works with the 800 and won't be backported.01:22
Aleksandyrby 800, I mean maemo3.01:22
dwdAleksandyr: New packaging?01:23
Aleksandyrdwd: the new one-click-installer thingy.01:23
disqMilhouse: same here. so no os2007 big deal, the 770 is slow as hell for serious tasks anyways01:23
bmidgleyi'm surprised it's so harsh, but maintenance takes resources01:23
disqdoes it really blow for developers? didn't have time to check the new sdk/toolchain and all01:24
bmidgleyit will be sad that maemo-mapper work for example will be split into two branches01:24
MilhouseI think we need to let Nokia think about this for a bit longer to formulate an official response somewhere - poor old Texrat is doing his best to calm people down01:24
Pioyou can get root with openssh just as easily as dropbear right?01:25
Aleksandyr...actually, I'd call Texrat an inciter, but that's me ;)01:25
Pioi used dropbear before as specified in the maemowiki, but i figure openssh would work exactly the same right?01:25
AleksandyrPio: openssh by default blocks remote root login: gotta tweak a config file.01:25
MilhouseToo many people on ITT are taking comments out of context and jumping to conclusions (some accurate, as it would seem as Ari has stated no OS2007 on 770)01:25
AleksandyrPio: however, the becomeroot package works on OS2007, supposedly01:25
Piothis isnt 2007 :(01:25
AleksandyrPio: it also works on 2006 ;)01:25
Pioyeah i never did try it before01:26
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MilhouseAleksandyr: You might be right - he certainly liked to tease people prior to the N800 launch! However I suspect he might be regretting it all now :)01:26
dwdAleksandyr: For a moment, I thought you meant they'd moved from dpkg/APT.01:26
Aleksandyrdwd: *shudder*01:26
AleksandyrMilhouse: lines like "Do you realize you contradicted yourself in your own post? :lol:" rarely win converts ;)01:28
|tbb|is the sound on the n8 much better than on the n701:28
disqso i take it the n800's screen is really physically different from the old one.01:28
Aleksandyr|tbb|: reports say that it's not as loud, but that it's higher quality.01:29
Aleksandyrdisq: supposedly the rainbow effect is gone01:29
Aleksandyrsame resolution tho01:29
disqthe only good thing about the old one was the high resolution/dpi (and maybe brightness levels)01:29
|tbb|what about the battery life? same as on the n701:30
lledisq: the new one looks (to me) like film + glass whereas the old one was 2*film (for the touchscreen)01:30
disqlle: ah. good news then :)01:30
Aleksandyr|tbb|: too early to call, I think01:31
Aleksandyrthe worst part about the screen to me is that it always looks like it needs cleaning01:31
myrenhow is the brightness?01:31
sitiawesome no rainbow effect :D01:32
myrensome of the photos comparison i've seen, the n800 looks dimmer?01:32
Milhousethats a fault of most touchscreens thogh01:32
myrenthat could just be the coating01:32
disqi was just about to put up my 770 for sale. then i changed my mind. it's still too precious for me to sell for ~$150 or so, i'll keep it01:32
Aleksandyryay conversational perl! disq: I'm going to hold on to it as well --- maybe lend it out or something.01:32
Milhousepretty much every touchscreen device I own (nokia 770, phone W950i, ipaq hx4700) needs a wipe down within minutes... but then maybe i just have mucky fingers01:33
Milhousei'm a bit of a hoarder - rarely sell gadgets!01:33
AleksandyrI vaguely miss my 4700. Fun device. Way too many issues.01:33
Milhousei put them back in their original boxes for safe keeping... sad really!01:33
myrenthere's no USB on the N800?01:34
Milhousethis channel is groundhog day01:34
myrensame q again and again?  yup.01:34
|tbb|i read on internettablettalk - Nokia repiar center just gave me 240$ for my 77001:34
Milhouseno USB, only Firewire. Sucks.01:34
Aleksandyrdoes this mean I get to strap my 770 into my passenger seat and drive off a cliff? :D01:34
myrenfirewire?  wtf?01:34
|tbb|will they trade in?01:34
Aleksandyr|tbb|: that was in lieu of getting a repaired device back.01:35
myrenso, figure out a covert way of damaging your unit, and profit01:35
Aleksandyrcovert, permanent way, because Nokia's going to be expecting shenanigans like this.01:35
Aleksandyrsame thing happens with Apple, allegedly.01:35
Milhousetry attaching it to your fridge, as suggested by Nokia01:35
Milhouseit's got a magnet in the case - may be enough to hold it on01:36
Milhouseor not01:36
* pahartik reads through
AleksandyrMilhouse: experimental testing has resulted in a fresh ding on my case01:37
Aleksandyrit joins roughly 59 siblings.01:37
Milhousetry harder! :)01:37
simon__wow, the n800 really seems to push activity within the maemo community01:37
Milhousei reckon Nokia should have used the same CPU, same memory, no extra card slots or webcam in the N800 and all the recent buyers of 770's would be happy.01:38
sitiMilhouse: good call ;)01:39
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MilhouseEveryone else would be thinking Nokia were nuts, but the few people who bought in the last few weeks would be very happy, and that's what counts.01:39
sitipeople are just being stupid, technology is like that you have to expect within two years your device/hardware is obsolete...01:39
AleksandyrMilhouse, your concern for your fellow man is...notable?01:40
dwdMilhouse: Seriously, I think if Nokia were a little more positive about 770 software upgrades, I think they'd be *less* upset.01:40
MilhouseJust some of those rants - so over the top01:40
Aleksandyrrants being over the top? Yeah. No more ammo for them kplzthx ;)01:40
llehmm, if people get upset you're typically doing at least something right01:41
Aleksandyrerk. I just said kplzthx. Shoot me. siti, we're not talking about people like me, who've been hacking on the thing for two years: we're talking about finding out your christmas present is obsolete on New Year's Day.01:41
|tbb|ive buyed the navkit some weeks b4 and know i cant use the holder if i would upgrade to n80001:41
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MilhouseI think the Nokians here have seen how annoyed people are and will hopefully formulate a response and maybe some sort of hybrid build... but they need to be given a chance - the N800 is only just out, they've probably been slaving away on it for months and now everyone is having a wild old time over in Vegas. Not really the best time to respond to flak like this, I guess. Give them time.01:41
AleksandyrI think the moral of the story is: Ari Jaaksi needs a PR guy.01:42
MilhouseAn official Nokia blog post "We're looking into it" might help01:42
MilhouseYep, the good Dr has certainly inflamed the situation01:42
jtokash2wait, there is an update for the n800.  ALREADY?!01:43
dwdMilhouse: Sure, but I think it wouldn't take a huge amount of foresight to think "Hey, if we release a new OS2007 based N800, then at least we ought to say it's coming soon for 770".01:43
MilhouseTexrat pretty much did that. But when do you say that, if you're going to say it?01:43
Aleksandyrjtokash2: ???01:43
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sitibut the issue is they make all their money through selling the hardware01:43
Milhouse2 months ago - and kill all sales of 770s already in the channel?01:43
Milhouseoh hang on - I misread01:44
sitiso they can't support software for 5 years when they get no income from it01:44
jtokashSoftware Edition 2007 version 2.2006.51-6 on  Mine is 1.2006.47-2001:44
MilhouseI agree, some sort of formal post about possible OS 2007 builds for 770 would be a good idea. Perhaps Nokia didn't forsee this fuss - no, they definately didn't!01:44
Aleksandyrsiti: of course they get income from it. They're losing quite a bit of money now, and once news sites pick up on it, they'll lose more.01:45
Aleksandyrthey severely undermined product confidence at -launch-01:45
sitiAleksandyr: lose more?01:45
Aleksandyrlosing potential sales, to be accurate.01:45
dwdAleksandyr: Exactly.01:45
MilhouseThe fuss over the 770s could be picked up and put people off buying N800s. Not good all round, really. Needs to be calmed down sooner rather than later, but most people probably are around to make the decisions.01:45
sitiI just don't think it's that big of a deal01:45
sitiit's not a $1000 device...01:46
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dwdsiti: If you've had the 770 since around launch, and you're thinking of upgrading, it's not a big deal. If you've had it for a month and are told it's basically unsupported, it probably is.01:47
|tbb|will the prices drop for a n770 now maybe to 200euros from 350 what uthink01:47
Veggenmm, my guess is they're simply used to a thing being a short-lived thing, noone expects to upgrade functionality.01:47
sxpertwho cares, it's source compatible01:47
VeggenSort of like a....cell phone!01:47
Aleksandyrsxpert: that's not guaranteed.01:47
MilhouseThey may have looked at how many they sold as well and thought any pain would be bearable01:48
sxpertyeah. cell phones get replaced every couple years on average around here (the time it takes for one to grow enough points to get a free replacement from their provider)01:48
Aleksandyrsxpert: they've mentioned quite a few whizzy new libraries for 2007, for one.01:48
sitiI haven't had it since launch only about 8months and it was a pain to get hold of01:48
sitibecause they don't sell them here01:48
myrenso so tempted to get a N800.  :/ :/.  otoh, i really want an OMAP3 cell phone.  _blah_!01:48
myreni guess the N800 is a real mobile computer, and cell phones never will be.01:48
myren$400... ouch.01:48
Veggenmyren: but Nokia isn't used to making real computers...really?01:48
sxpertmyren, that's cheap, considering the N93 is over 700€01:49
glass_nokia mikromikko ftw01:49
myrensxpert: true enough.01:49
myreni guess my N800 would make a fine media center controller after I obsolete it to whatever superphone comes out in 2009.01:49
sxpert(that is, the non-subsidized price)01:49
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myrenits awkward purchasing something with such a nebulous use case01:50
sxpertthe N770 can already be used in that capacity01:50
myrenN800 == mobile computer toy01:50
MilhouseI heard Nokia were doing some deals with cable ISP01:50
sitiyeah maybe if/when wimax comes out they'll bring out a new version for it01:50
sitithen it's not restrictive like cell phone networks01:51
MilhouseI think they tried that with the 770 - an ISP in Spain perhaps? Not sure how well that went. One of the reports for the N800 mentioned something similar.01:51
sitiyet you can access stuff everywhere01:51
Aleksandyrmyren: moreso when the current device has, well, issues.01:51
sxpertAleksandyr, what issues ?01:51
sxpertworks for me. does all I need01:52
MilhouseThe N800 could make a good VoIP phone at home... bundle it with a wireless broadband package and it might work, assuming the customer has a clue about that kind of thing.01:52
Aleksandyrsxpert, I still get semirandom crashes and nonresponds in Opera, the e-mail app is nigh-entirely useless, and a few other software glitches that irk me regularly.01:52
Aleksandyrof course, the maintenance release might address that.01:52
myreni mostly just want to run Mono on it01:52
sxpertI mostly run kismet :D01:52
AleksandyrMilhouse: they did that in the UK, I think.01:52
myreni have an entire computing environment i've been building in mono01:52
VeggenHmm. Will the N800 support non-memory SD cards?01:52
dwdAleksandyr: Don't think so. Not in UK.01:52
MilhouseI'm in the UK - never saw any marketing for it01:53
myrenVeggen: very hard to tell.  depends not only on drivers but on hardware as well.  we just dont know.01:53
Aleksandyrhrm, I read about it in The Register, so that's why I associate it with the UK01:53
MilhouseHere we go - Wannadoo Spain:
MilhouseThat's for the 77001:53
myrenthats amazing01:54
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myrensometimes i think of dropping my cell provider and going VoIP.  but american infrastructure is such shite.  decent wifi is so hard to find.01:54
Aleksandyrsxpert: kismet + 770 = oohs and aahs at Defcon ;)01:54
sxpertAleksandyr, hehe01:55
sxpertno kiddin'01:55
myrenhonestly i'll probably be using my cell phone provider for 3g net connection pretty soon, wifi is so bad.01:55
Piois it unsafe to change 'user's shell?01:55
Pioto bash..01:55
keesjVeggen, what are you thinking of?01:55
sxpert3G is so fscking expensive here it's not worth it. I have a 10Mbytes monthly allowance, that would go like *poof* in a couple seconds or so01:56
Veggenkeesj: doesn't it exist SD cards with GPS, with GSM, etc?01:56
keesjVeggen, I don't know01:57
sxpertthe only thing I can get without being ass-raped is to watch some stupid mobile tv during the week end01:57
AleksandyrI hate Verizon, but love the $15/mo 2.5G internet plan01:57
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myrenCingular has a $20/mo media-net unlimited plan that supposedly is quite good for teathering01:58
myrenalthough i dont think you're supposed to teather, everyone does01:58
|tbb|will gizmo project work with the n800 for now?01:58
myrenthats why i went with cingular.  thats the _only_ reason i went with cingular.01:59
Aleksandyrmyren: correct on both counts01:59
lindi-Pio: unsafe to memory usage i guess :)01:59
Pioheh, well if im going to use a shell, it might as well be big and bloated01:59
myrenbah, we've a full 128mb of memory!  bring it on!!! ;)01:59
AleksandyrPio: potentially risky, worst thing is probably a reflash.01:59
sxpertthe 3 operators here need a 4th one to kick their collective ass01:59
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|tbb|and what about the navkit which i have purchased weeks ago?01:59
Aleksandyrsxpert: I hear Alltel's not entirely evil02:00
Aleksandyrsxpert: then again I realize I'm assuming you're stateside02:00
sxpertAleksandyr, it's "orange", "sfr" and "bouygues" around here02:00
sxpert|tbb|, send it to me as an Xmas present :D02:02
myreni really wish there was good GPS software available for the Nokia N's02:02
Veggen says that there exists SDIO standard, that's SD form factor slots that support other things than memory.02:03
myrenits so sad that all the good software now comes packages with shitty hardware02:03
sxpertmyren, what sort of GPS software do you think would be useful ?02:03
Aleksandyrmyren: IIRC Tomtom works on the Ns?02:03
myren.. what?!02:03
|tbb|will it run on the n800?02:03
AleksandyrVeggen: SDIO's been around for's just not very good02:03
myrensxpert: i'd like direction finding software.  its the only thing i'm not willing to hack together myself.02:03
sxpertah. ok.02:04
AleksandyrVeggen: very very low transfer speed.02:04
myrenwell that, and the teleatlas database is pretty hard to rip off.02:04
Aleksandyr|tbb|: not now, no02:04
VeggenAleksandyr: ok. But would be useful for things like GPS.02:04
sxpertwell, we, at are working on open maps. navigation sofware is due to follow02:04
AleksandyrVeggen: bluetooth :D02:04
|tbb|what????? omg02:04
myrenVeggen: unfortuantley it looks like BT is really the only device extension we have.  :( :( :( :( :(02:04
Aleksandyrsxpert: seen roadnav, I assume?02:04
sxpertAleksandyr, yeay02:04
Aleksandyrsxpert: supposedly I'm working on that for the 770, but I've been deluged recently02:04
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sxpertAleksandyr, heh.02:05
myrensxpert: many thanks if you work on osm.  that is wonderful work.02:05
sxpertAleksandyr, I've been attempting to work on a project of my own, maemo-surveyor...02:05
myrenthere's just so much data we'll never have access to that tom tom &all can utilize02:05
sxpertmyren, thanks for the congrats.02:05
VeggenI do in theory work on osm. Anyone can do.02:05
|tbb|thats bad02:05
|tbb|i wont upgrade then02:05
sxpertmyren, the data is all out there, waiting to be modelized02:05
VeggenHowever, 74 days of continous rain doesn't exactly encourage going out bicycling collecting data... ;-)02:06
Aleksandyrmyren, google TIGER-line02:06
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Veggen(ok, not continuous, but rain every day, usually most of the day)02:06
Aleksandyrsxpert: maemo-surveyor? <googles> Nifty.02:06
sxpertAleksandyr, only good for the US, and data quality leaves a lot to be desired02:06
|tbb|veggen do u have a clue how to import kismet logged data to maemo mapper?02:06
Aleksandyrsxpert, true and true, but it's a start :D02:06
sxpertAleksandyr, nothing to show yet02:06
myrenAleksandyr: I've consumed tiger data before.  it was not fun.02:07
Aleksandyrsxpert, I'm xreffing to what you're trying to emulate ;)02:07
Aleksandyrmyren: libroadnav! :D02:07
Veggentbb: sorry, no. My 770 is in for service because of WSOD. Gotta call and ask when it gets back, soon....02:07
sxpertAleksandyr, check trimble pro surveying software for their windows CE based gps-enabled thingie02:07
VeggenI think it might have been a mistake to hand it in locally :) I thought, "well, there exists local Nokia-certified shops...why not go for it, not having to handle shipping myself".02:08
Aleksandyrthat would be the english translation of what I just said I did. Whoops :D02:08
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* sxpert heads to bed, I guess02:09
sxpertcat is waiting :D02:09
Aleksandyrsxpert: hopefully short for Catherine ;) good night02:09
|tbb|anyone using xchat with n77002:09
Aleksandyr|tbb|: not right now, but yes.02:10
sxpertAleksandyr, nah, nah...
|tbb|have u got sounds on ur n02:10
Aleksandyr|tbb|: nope, but I almost never turn sound on02:10
Aleksandyrsxpert, cute :D02:10
|tbb|do u know where to setup password for nick regeistering02:12
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Aleksandyr|tbb|: I switched to irssi because xchat was too...I don't know, x-chatty, sorry =/02:12
Aleksandyropen source commandline chat client available for the 77002:13
myrenxchat is kind of a piece of shit.02:14
dwdRight. Finally got local config to work on Telomer, so it must be time for bed.02:16
Aleksandyrcongratulations and good night02:16
|tbb|what is telomer02:16
dwd|tbb|: Email client.02:16
dwd|tbb|: Does low-bandwidth IMAP, basically. (As in, full Lemonade Profile, with several additional extensions to make stuff faster).02:17
* Aleksandyr plugs dwd's own site:
|tbb|cant find packet irssi02:17
MilhouseAri Jaaksi has posted a comment in his bog pretty much sticking the knife into OS 2007 on 770 :(02:17
dwdHe posted a comment in his bog?02:18
dwdThat's just *too much information*.02:18
Milhousewell blog actually, but some blogs are sooo full of... :)02:18
Aleksandyr"But I agree that with more time and resources we could have provided a better support for the 770. We will learn from this!"02:19
Aleksandyrsomeone buy this man a spin doctor02:19
|tbb|aleks whats the package name for the irssi02:19
Milhouse"We will learn from this!" probably isn't going to go down that well with some poeple02:19
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Aleksandyr|tbb|: it might not be in a repo yet, check ApplicationCatalog200602:19
Milhouse"So I paid $400 to be a beta tester?!"02:19
dwdAleksandyr: No, a dentist. Putting his foot in his mouth that hard is bound to need some help.02:19
Aleksandyrdwd: I think he's going to need a proctologist, if that's what you mean02:20
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|tbb|i thing maemo is down02:23
|tbb|.org i mean02:23
sitiyeah doesn't work here too02:24 down here too02:24
|tbb|no irssi the :/02:24
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Aleksandyr|tbb|: or
framerateanyone know a website that has the stinghorn vpn client for download?02:27
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Aleksandyrframerate: appears to be down, so no =/02:29
|tbb|will aircrack suite worked now without errors on the n77002:29
frameratei know, i was hoping it'd work on n800, cant get online at work at all :(02:30
Aleksandyron that note, it's 7:30 and it's time for me to go home.02:30
Aleksandyrframerate: stinghorn VPN does require a kernel module, so it probably won't work until updated ATVL02:30
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frameratewont dial up w/ my blackberry, cant shar macbook wifi and no vpn :(02:31
frameratebad luck so far02:31
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|tbb|gn8 all02:34
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gpdi am now on OSX and I still can't find a client to connect with voice / video to gtalk on n800?  any pointers?02:42
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gpdiChat does video - but not with jabber02:43
Pioweird.. scirocco tableteer repos point to /pool/bora/ .. and you just get 404s..02:43
gpdadiumX is awesome - but doesn't do video02:43
Pioguess ill just get em from /pool/mistral by hand02:43
keesjis there a geeky graphical irc client like xchat that works well under the n770?02:44
Piotheres an xchat port02:44
koenkeesj: xchat02:45
gpdkeesj: geeky and 'graphical irc' are antonyms :) -- irssi is geeky02:45
jtokashDisconnect, what's up with the update for the n800?02:45
jtokashSoftware Edition 2007 version 2.2006.51-6 on  Mine is 1.2006.47-2002:45
Piohuh strangely its not on the applicationcatalogue.. xchat that is02:45
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keesjkeesj sets mode x+z -p+t on gpd02:46
keesjI use irssi as proxy now02:47
* pahartik wonders about terrible formatting of example code on document at ""02:50
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danielsoh dear.  apparently you can't get an extension on your residence permit from outside finland.02:51
gpdso can we confirm that there are no stable video and voice clients for OSX or Linux to communicate with the N800 video phone? or should I keep looking?02:52
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sp3000pahartik: there's a bug03:02
NickDegpd: I have not found any03:03
NickDealthough I must say n800 to n800 works fabulous03:03
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Piogarage: Canola: Detail: 231 Canola does not work with UShare03:06
Piodoh, no wonder03:06
Piocan you guys recommend a linux upnp server to use?03:06
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Pioah, fuppes03:09
Pioi know this channel is #maemo and not really #nokiatabletchatter, is that kind of question offtopic here?03:10
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gpdPio: I have not tried it but gmediaserver is apt-getable on ubuntu03:14
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Pioapparently gmediaserver has the same problems as ushare..03:14
Pioor at least, its own set.. they both use libupnp though, which has problems of its own03:14
Pioim monkeying with fuppes.. no good documentation for it yet apparently..03:15
keesjI think I use gnump3d is that possible?03:15
Pioi dont think gnump3d does any upnp03:15
Pioat least that i know of03:15
Pioat least mine doesnt :)03:15
keesjno i use gmediaserver -o /tmp/out.log -b --friendly-name=box --disable-id3   /mnt/data/home/shared/media/03:16
Piothat works ok for canola?03:16
keesjbut streams often get broken (I blame mediaserver)03:16
Pioheh canola queried fuppes and it died03:17
Piowell something's better than nothing03:17
danguymy goodness, the scratchbox install needed is over 650MB it looks like.03:24
danguya lot of that seems to com from doctools... hmm03:24
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* gpd investigates mp3tunes and oboe client for n80003:30
ntrsis there any way I could be able to use java applets on web pages on n800?03:31
ntrsIs there a java VM for 770 or N800?03:31
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ntrsWill these work with N800?03:33
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gpd <- probably the best place for updates - no mention of n800 yet03:37
gpdpresumably noone knows if Jazelle is active on n80003:38
gpdI can't find if oboe and mp3tunes uses open protocols...03:41
ntrshas anyone ran minimo successfuly on n800?03:41
gpdI think I am learning about 1 new work every 20 minutes on here...03:43
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shackandoes the N800 run opera?04:16
soothsayshackan: The embedded version, yes.04:16
gpdbefore i flash the new image - i am doing scp -r teeny:/home/users . and using the backup restore tool - any other tips?04:18
* gpd wonders where everybody went04:22
danguyIs there a mirror for
danguyThis sdk installer is getting 16B/s.04:23
gpdFinishing flashing... done :D04:26
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MazinJaffa: can you help me with your script to encode video for the 770?04:58
MazinJaffa: I sent you a PM on ITT about it...04:58
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gpddo i need to do something special to login to on n800?  it keeps reloading the page when i click on the password box05:16
akkHmm, I can't get there on the 770 either -- it says it needs JS and it's not enabled or not supported.05:19
akkOh, that's 'cause it wasn't checked by default in settings ...05:19
gpdseems strange given that gmail is a bookmark on n800 factory preset05:20
akkyup. I guess you're supposed to know to go there and turn JS on.05:20
gpdi have js on05:20
gpdsettings - enable javascript -- tick05:21
gpdit might have saved the wrong password or something -- need to find where that is stored05:21
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gpdmust be in .opera somewhere - but not obvious how to remove password from the list05:23
gpdah--- tools settings clear -- clear passwords :)05:24
gpdthis thing gets better by the hour!05:24
gpdexcellent - that was it - i am into gmail05:25
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gpdtransparency of windows in google calendar 'add event' is a little fruity05:27
gpdakk: how are you getting on? did you flash the update?05:27
akkgpd: Yes, the update went very smoothly once I figured out the right file to use.05:27
akkgpd: Installing software on the new system has been a bit rocky, but I think I have most of the critical stuff now, everything else can wait.05:28
gpdwhat sort of stuff were you trying for?05:28
akkIt took me forever to get an xterm to install, and I had to give up on bash05:29
akkI got a system crash in the middle of sudoku (I don't really care about that, it was just a whim)05:29
gpdyou are on n800 - i forget05:29
akkso that never installed at all, but it took about 20 minutes for the system to reboot so that I could do anything else05:29
akkNo, I'm on a 77005:29
akkSome of the problems were from not knowing about the "red pill" option05:30
akk(I finally stumbled upon that, enabled it and then things went better, wish I'd known about it before I screwed myself up with the wrong libncurses)05:31
gpd[this google calendar isn't working with the create event button]05:31
akkmost of those system utilities don't show up at all without "red pill"05:31
gpdbut now you should be able to apt-get stuff right?05:32
akkSome things, anyway. Other things still don't show up05:33
akklike I only have one xterm, not two (still not sure which one I'm seeing, the regular or advanced one)05:33
gpd'sorry but this browser does not support web word-processing.' - google docs and sheets05:33
akkbut I can't apt-get it anyway, because it doesn't like my libncurses and won't replace it either05:33
akkI wonder if they want content-editable or design-mode?05:35
gpdmy impression so far is that these tablets are bleeding edge on all fronts05:35
akk(for google docs)05:35
akkI haven't tried installing minimo yet, but if it works it probably does design-mode and would work.05:35
gpdyou have a lot more software available to you than me -- bora only have the core stuff it seems05:36
gpdi'm sure it will all appear soon enough05:36
akkI added a bunch of repositories from the applications page.05:37
akkMost of them don't seem to show up, but a few do.05:37
gpdwhat are your priorities for things to get working?05:38
akk1. fbreader, which is working, whew. 1. basic unix system utilities like xterm and bash (no luck on bash, though)05:39
akk3. fun stuff like games, astro programs, and also development stuff (I did get python-runtime installed)05:39
akkOh, pim stuff like a calendar would be nice, but I haven't attempted that yet.05:40
gpdi need a vpn cisco client for campus access.05:40
gpdfbreader would be good, calendar with external .ics support05:40
Takdates is a nice calendar05:40
Tak...which imports and exports .ics05:41
gpdimap folders would be great as 99.9% of my mail in in 'Reference/Year'05:41
akkThanks, I'll keep that in mind.05:41
gpdpython is a must05:41
akkI don't need much mail stuff -- I find tapping text to be waaaaay too slow and painful to use it for mail05:41
akkthough I'm glad you mentioned gmail, I did want to test that and it's working now05:41
gpdvim - although i think a bluetooth keyboard would be needed05:41
akkOh, yeah, I tried to get vim and failed. I want some sort of text editor.05:42
Takdon't forget about fceu and xmaeme for games05:42
gpdthe mail is useful for reference i think -- looking at old mails for phone numbers or addresses that i didn't transfer etc05:42
akkI don't actually play games much ... I like having chess, and if I could add a couple like sudoku or minesweeper it would be nice05:42
gpdthen we are into the wikipedia joy - for browsing offline05:43
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akkI don't have a big mini-SD so not much hope for wikipedia here.05:43
akkHow much space do you need for a wikipedia copy?05:43
gpdthe webaroo is about 7G05:44
gpdbut i would be happy with small slices05:44
akkHow would you choose slices?05:44
gpdeg.  a small spider around a certain topic -- with link depth of 5 or soemthing05:44
gpdnot sure - just something i was interested in -- or browsing whilst online -- click 'save for offline'05:45
gpdthe UPnP stuff also looks promising - but i don't have the right hardware atm i think to spend much time on it05:45
akkI'd like some of the wifi utilities eventually, sniffers and such05:46
gpdif the skype stuff comes out soon and supports the camera - that would be superb as i have loads of people on skype05:46
akkOoh, that would be a nice use for it. (Not for me, I don't have skype, but in general)05:47
gpdprobably need to get yahoo/msn/aol messenger going -- gaim?05:47
akkI installed xchat, but typing is so slow I doubt I'll use it much.05:47
gpdi need to find a page with bluetooth keyboards to see what they look like and how much.05:47
gpdthe palm ones were fairly huge05:48
akkIf I could get a very small portable keyboard, this gizmo might actually become useful.05:48
gpdthe virtual 'laser' ones are apparently crappy05:48
akkIt would be such a great PDA if it just had a zaurus-like thumb keyboard05:48
gpdwell the screen thumb keyboard on N800 is HUGE -- haven't really tried it yet though05:49
gpdin fact I can't quite remember how to access it right now :)05:49
akktyping on a touchscreen doesn't work for me, because I can never tell whether a key actually registered or not05:50
akkI have to re-tap a lot, and correct a lot05:50
gpdi agree -- where would you look for a bluetooth one?05:50
Takactually the guys here tested with the onscreen thumbboard vs a sony mylo, and the thumbboard was better by a considerable margin05:50
Takthe thinkoutside stowaway sierra is supposed to be pretty nice05:50
gpdthanks Tak05:51
gpddoesn't tak mean thanks in danish?05:51
akkLooks like that's fullsize, though, not a portable05:51
akk(which certainly has its uses, of course)05:51
gpdtri-folded design05:52
gpd'highly protable' -- does look very nice05:52
gpdit is 100 grams heavier than the tablet though!05:53
Takgpd: I hear it does05:53
gpdTak: is $130 about normal - or is that high end?05:55
Takthat kb is like $90 at newegg05:56
gpdthat's more like it :)05:56
Takthat and the nokia su-8w are about the same price05:56
Takand those are the only two good ones I know of :-P05:56
gpdhave you used both?05:57
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TakI haven't actually used either05:58
TakI'm just regurgitating popular opinion05:59
Takit's like high school all over again05:59
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gpdok - good enough - thanks for the tips - i need to run (literally) and keep away from newegg!06:02
myrenman i really wish there were nice tactile analog direction pads06:11
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jtokashany word on what this new image for the n800 is for?06:37
Disconnectjtokash: there are release notes06:37
jtokashOh, thanks Disconnect.  For some reason it didn't occur to me to download it and unzip it!  >blushes<06:39
jtokashhmmm it looks like a bin file06:40
jtokashAre the release notes somewhere else?06:40
jtokashI searched the buffer.  I see you already mentioned  Never occurred to me to look there. omw06:44
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jtokashI can't find the release notes.
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gpdjtokash: i pasted the reference above - not easy to find07:01
gpdNokia Internet Call Invitation (Beta)07:02
gpdBluetooth connection on/off enabler07:02
gpdImprovements in finger usage07:02
gpdfrom the tumbleweeds in here i guess everyone is at CES07:05
jtokashThanks gpd07:06
jtokashdid you install?07:06
gpdyes - all smooth07:07
jtokashis it a full overwrite?  Did you lose all your settings?07:09
gpdyes and yes - but backup restore got most back07:09
gpdeg. all rss feeds mail settings etc07:09
gpdi had to reinstall the xterm and ssh07:09
Disconnectloses bt pairings07:09
gpdbut the application repos was all there still07:09
Disconnectall installed apps07:09
gpdhmm . bt pairings would be annoying i guess07:10
jtokashthat might be a blessing in disguise.  I think I got a few bad installs on day 1.07:10
Disconnectif you edit things like input.ini you lose that too07:10
jtokashok, cool.  I'll pull the trigger!07:10
gpdDisconnect: could you in theory tar and untar /home/user - and get that stuff back?07:10
gpdor is that not advised07:10
Disconnectgpd: it remembered that it wanted to be paired to my phone and kb, but whatever holds the actual pairing disappeared07:11
Disconnectrepairing was easy07:11
Disconnectgpd: i wouldn,t07:11
gpdunison would be a useful app for the tablet - must check if available07:11
Disconnectthat path is in the image so..07:11
gpdDisconnect: ok - agreed07:11
gpdwhat bluetooth keyboard to you have / recommend?07:12
Disconnectlove it :)07:12
gpdthat one?07:12
Disconnectbackspace still causes opera to go back07:14
Disconnect(even in a text input)07:14
gpdwow that one is tiny07:14
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gpddid you compare it with the one i pasted?07:14
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* Disconnect wishes for hibernate (or even deepsleep capacitors) so changing batteries didn't wean rebooting07:21
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jtokashI'm totally not going to click that.07:24
gpdDisconnect: is your keyboard like a laptop's spacing?07:24
gpdthat one is much bigger but only 19mm spacing not 18mm (yours)07:24
gpdi suppose you are getting the cursor keys etc07:24
Disconnectexcept for qwerty to dvorak and back07:24
Disconnecti miss the number row tho07:25
jtokashI have one of the recent stowawyas - stowaway universal.  I hate that the top row shares #s and letters07:25
gpdno numbers? hmm...07:25
* gpd wonders why a online retailers are *incapable* of giving you a descent sized picture!07:26
jtokashI think I would have preferred to have wider keyboard07:26
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jtokashthat had the extra row07:26
gpdhere - look at this thumbnail before purchasing...07:26
jtokashbut they didn't ask me07:26
gpduniversal looks to be the same as Disconnect's07:27
gpdi guess it all comes down to size/weight07:28
gpd160g for universal ultraslim - or 303g for stowaway07:28
Disconnectits a good match to the 770. not terrible with the 800 either but i miss the hardcase (throw them both in a pocket or whatever)07:29
jtokashyeah, I really miss the hard case07:29
* Disconnect used the brando case07:30
jtokashI haven't seen that one07:30
gpdmy worry is that 'if i am going to bring a keyboard - it may as well be big and not annoy me with no number keys'07:30
Disconnectsaved it from a couple of falls07:30
gpdhowever, if it is too big i just will never use it i suppose07:30
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gpddamn it - i will have to see it in person - end of temptation07:31
* gpd puts down the CC07:31
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Disconnectgot a ton of zaurus stuff from him too (actually.. the c760 was from there too, come to think of it)07:32
jtokashupdate installed. rebooting07:33
jtokashYeah, I like brando.  I got some palm stuff from them (screen protectors, cases) and I think my usb2ide/sata set came from there as well07:34
jtokashgreat prices07:34
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gpdjtokash: are you putting together a guide for new users?07:39
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jtokashoh god, are you serious?  Bora still has the problem where it won't skip bad application catalogs.07:41
jtokashDisconnect, you were right about bluetooth pairings dying on reflash.  FYI, though, my phone's internet settings are still there.  Don't need to re-enter the data call phone number, etc07:42
gpdis there a review site (like ipodlounge) for us tablet people?07:43
Disconnect(to jtokash)07:44
jtokashI don't review the apps, though07:44
myrenok i only have two things i can possibly grimace about.  no usb, and no gps.07:44
Disconnectusb is easy - same 5V injector from the 77007:44
Disconnectgps is easy too - itrek m3 :)07:45
Disconnect(even worked inside hotels and such on our last trip07:45
jtokashI wonder if there is a debug log for bluetooth phone connection attempts.  Mine keeps failing07:46
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Disconnectjtokash: fwiw my 9300i just said "open cover" and prompted far a pin07:47
jtokashwell, I'm paired and I can browse the phone in the file manager07:48
jtokashbut I can't get the data connection to work07:48
Disconnectthen the 800 said 'doh, pairing!' and prompted too07:48
jtokashIt worked yesterday but not today07:48
jtokash(even before the os update, it wasn't working)07:48
gpdI think a page like: for tablets would be a great starting point for new tablet people to make the transition - it is a little scary moving from a desktop07:48
Disconnectreboot the phone?07:48
jtokashtried that.  :-)07:48
jtokashI'll reenter all the credentials07:49
jtokashstart from scratch07:49
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gpdjtokash: what is that stuff about umpc on your site?07:50
gpdwhat is that thing?07:50
gpdoh -- ultra micro pc... all windows... must have terrible battery life07:51
jtokashmy old eo?07:52
jtokashsold that07:52
gpdno good?07:52
jtokashbattery life07:52
gpdspecs look impressive07:52
jtokashand not pocketable07:52
jtokashbasically, I wanted the nokia 770 but didn't know that I wanted the 77007:52
gpd60GB hard drive! holy battery hell07:52
jtokashIt was 5400 rpm, at least07:53
gpdalso 2lbs is chunky monkey07:54
Disconnectis it me or is the 800 way lighter than the 770?07:54
gpdN800 is about 210g - not sure about 77007:54
jtokashn800 is lighter07:55
gpd230g for 77007:55
jtokashthey are close when you compare them without the 770's shell07:55
* gpd still rumbles about keyboards - big or small... 07:56
* Disconnect has no shell on his, still seems like its a ton lighter07:56
Disconnectwell.. a bit anyway07:58
myrenDisconnect: wait 5v injector for usb?07:58
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myrenthere is a usb host, just not powered?07:58
myreni was under the impression there was nothing resembling usb anywhere to be found on the N800 and 77007:59
Disconnectmyren:yah.  enable it in sw, then provide 5v into the port and it goes all hosty07:59
myrenwill a powered hub drive that 5v line?08:00
myrenor does it require a little more DIY08:00
Disconnectafaik it takes at least a little08:00
gpd[random news - second life goes open source] <- tablet edition? >)08:00
* Disconnect built one for $6 at radio shack, w/ a 9v battery, switch and led it fit in an altoids tin08:01
jtokashfyi, I can't use my cell connection with my 770 either anymore08:02
jtokashI bet cingular changed the password08:02
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Disconnecttmob has been good for me08:02
jtokashI'll see what howardforums has to say08:03
jtokashYeah, I think I'll switch to tmobile when my contract is up08:03
jtokashor _maybe_ spring08:03
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bmidgleyjtokash: which cingular phone? are you paying to tether?08:09
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jtokashno, bmidgley, media.net08:10
jtokashlg cu32008:10
bmidgleyverizon insited on a firmware update to my e815 that killed bluetooth dun08:11
jtokashthat's rude08:11
bmidgleyafter a lot of complaining they replaced it with a treo 700p08:11
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bmidgleyit's pretty goofy to carry a 700p and a 77008:11
bmidgleyi miss the little flipphone08:12
bmidgleythe fun part was the bills i was getting while using my "unlimited" data on the e81508:13
bmidgleyone month was $150008:13
gpdhmm... looks like the ultraslim igo has no Escape key -- Vim Disaster!08:13
Disconnectfn-tab on mine08:14
gpdis that acceptable?08:14
gpdi am coming round to the big brother:08:14
Disconnectworks for me although i'd happily swap esc and tab08:14
gpdseems to be the same size as my desktop keyboard08:15
gpdand it will be in my bag - not pocket - so extra 150grams is not a big deal08:15
bmidgleythe think outside bt keyboard is ok but / is in the wrong place08:15
bmidgleyi keep hitting up-arrow08:15
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gpdfinally some high res photos:
gpdouch - sorry for long url08:25
danguyTo be more in like with oldschool keyboards, just remap CapsLock to Esc.08:26
danguyActually, it makes emacs almose useful to do that.08:26
konttoriLooks pretty nice. How much does it cost?08:26
gpd $81.95 at amazon08:26
bmidgleylooks easier to use than their stowaway kb i bought08:26
gpd <- excellent review of stowaway v. ultralight08:29
SuperQgpd: yea08:31
SuperQgpd: I have the smaller Sonoma for my 77008:32
SuperQI have something similar to the Sierra for my Handspring Visor08:33
gpdI think I'm convinced by the big beasty 'sierra' - i am a fat handed freak ;)08:33
konttorisonoma looks even better than sierra08:34
konttorikeys are about the same size and for normal use, numbers are really not that needed08:35
danguyI dunno if I can live without numbers.08:35
danguyI would have to try it for a while with the Fn key.08:35
gpd1mm is the difference between a laptop keyboard and a desktop keyboard08:36
danguyI prefer my thinkpad keyboard to my desktop, so...08:36
danguyActually, I just saw this on Engadget:
danguyIt actually meets the requirements for maemo :)08:37
gpdhmm... looks sweet08:38
danguyI would have to know about the battery before buying, but I will follow it when they release it.08:38
gpdit says it has linux - but the screenshot implies xp08:38
gpdlooks like a penguin in the start button though! :)08:39
gpdand a debian swirl08:39
danguyThat is clearly a linux desktop08:39
danguyThe "start" button has a penguin on it08:39
konttoriI must say that Malata looks terrific08:39
bmidgleythe review says the sonoma stand isn't detachable but it is08:40
konttori's like the ideal notebook for a student. Especially a young one.08:41
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gpdhmm... now i'm flipping back to the sonoma -- typical gpd08:48
danguyI find it strange that it takes more batteries, but still weighs less.08:49
danguyBut, I guess that also means you have to change them much less often.08:49
gpdpresumbably you can't use a bluetooth mouse with n800/770?08:51
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danguyI don't know how one would even write a fake driver for that.08:53
danguyMaemo itself works just fine with a mouse, though, even right click works as expected.08:54
gpdi should pluck up the courage to install the sdk - and stop drooling over keyboards08:55
danguyI just did that today. It was very easy.08:56
danguyAlthough, the repository is *very* slow.08:56
gpdis it like a chroot install or something?08:56
danguyWell, you install scratchbox first08:56
danguyThen you install the sdk into that as your own user08:56
danguyand then it is somewhat like chrooting after that.08:57
gpdscratchbox is a mystery - so there is the energy barrier...08:57
* gpd reads08:57
danguyWhat distro?08:57
gpdubuntu edgy atm08:57
konttoriI wish Nokia would provide pre-installed and ready to go vmware image for each sdk for us non-linux users08:58
danguyThere are Debian packages that work in Ubuntu: "deb ./"08:58
gpdor for us linux users too -- vmware player is apt-getable08:58
danguyThe install is pretty big08:59
danguyThe image would probably be 1GB or more.08:59
gpd1GB is about 45min download ;)09:00
* gpd runs09:00
danguyI just used
danguyOh, that chipsx86 guide is outdated.09:02
gpdok - following your url09:02
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c0ffee"don't apply, but please make your work visible"09:16
keesjthat's kind of hard right?09:17
myrendude ipv6?  fancy.09:18
keesjOr perhaps it is an invitation for spamming irc and the mailing list09:18
c0ffeei fear the latter09:19
myrenat least he's honest?09:19
c0ffeei don't see much of a diff between applying and making your work visible09:20
c0ffeeit would be better to have a defined email addy like last ttime where you can make your work visible imho09:20
danielswell, look, if you consider that the goal of the program is to boost the maemo development program, why would you do it any other way?09:20
danielss/development program/development community/09:21
danielsif only nokia can see what you've done, and others can't, then that's not really doing anything for the maemo development community09:21
keesjtrue , but in that case you would not eclude people who did not yet contribute.09:21
myreni have no idea what you are talking about c0ffee09:21
c0ffeewhat about 'put a page up in the wiki and link it from here'09:21
myreni presume its something about what software was released with the n80009:21
danielskeesj: i'd imagine that's why the original program invited people to apply, whereas the current one recognises existing contributions09:22
c0ffeewell, it's a wiki anyway09:23
c0ffeemaybe i'll just do that09:23
suihkulokkiwell, you just can't do a discount programm like that "100% fair" anyway09:23
suihkulokki"elämä on"09:23
keesjbut for me it felt like a message from nokia that they appreciate your involvement. If you have to behave like a monkey to get that appreciation no thanks09:24
danielskeesj: you can't please everyone, all the time09:24
keesjall you really need is to be clear.09:24
keesjback the latex now :)09:25
c0ffeei prefer leather!09:25
keesj2007 and my love for LaTeX still grows09:26
c0ffeei wonder whether the scratchbox .deb files contain some extra script magic09:30
c0ffeeor whether they fail to install like the tarballs09:30
keesjare you talking about installing on the real device with the gui installer?09:32
c0ffeenah, about setting up scratchbox on my desktop09:32
gpdc0ffee: i am just installing the debs now09:33
c0ffeeare you using debian?09:33
gpdubuntu edgy09:33
c0ffeei don't09:33
gpdEverything seems ok.09:34
gpddownloading rootstrap09:35
c0ffeei'll install the stuff on my workbox and copy it over09:35
c0ffeeat work i have a debian system09:36
gpdso this question is bugging me - how does the 770/800 chip differ from the regular Debian Arm distro? [page 1 faq]09:36
danielsgpd: well, aside from cpus and distros being rather different, maemo uses eabi, whereas debian hasn't got there yet09:37
c0ffeewhat is eabi?09:37
gpdacroym number 27 of the day :) /me googles09:38
c0ffeedoes that mean you're not using the broken gcc arm alignment?09:38
gpdwow - even wikipedia has no eabi page09:38
gpdbleeding edge baby -- bleeding edge09:39
danguy'The "ARM EABI" is an informal name for the ABI for the ARM Architecture.'09:40
c0ffeeso it's the correct abi in contrast to broken gcc abi09:41
c0ffeegcc on arm will reserve 4 bytes for a single byte entry in a struct09:41
myrenis debian EABI arm port still active?
myrenrunning aptitude on a maemo would rock09:42
danielsmyren: the work is all done, it's just waiting until after etch09:42
myrendo people (3rd parties) ever adjust the GUI itself on maemo, or is it mostly just app building?09:43
myrenthe standard gui looks like it leaves a 740x430 resolution or thereabouts for apps09:44
myrenerm, i guess i'm saying gui when i mean window manager09:44
daniels720x420, yes09:45
myrenok a little off09:45
myrenis that adjustable?09:45
myrencan the framing take up less spacE?09:45
danielsno, it's fixed09:45
danielsand many apps have these assumptions hardcoded in them09:45
myrenare fullscreen apps possible?09:45
myreni presume so, but perhaps the media playeres i've seen are all Nokia software or something09:46
gpdmyren: very interesting link about debian armel - thanks all09:47
danguyThat covers that in the "Basic Hildon Layouts" section09:47
jtokashthoughtfix says there is a magnetic wallet case for the n800 at CES09:48
jtokashhe's getting a photo tomorrow.  The ones he took today didn't come out.09:48
gpdsdk install complete:  "Happy hacking!"09:48
danguygpd: woo!09:49
tigertgood morning09:51
myrenbloody wifi, stop dropping my nfs09:51
danguymyren: There is a solution. Get a WRAP board and put a 400mW Atheros in it... :)09:53
myrenyeah tempting09:53
c0ffeestop the blob09:53
myreni use a bunch of netgear WGT634u's.  most are only 75mW, although rated for 100mW just fine.  atheros based.  the nice thing is they were $32 and they have usb 2.0.09:54
danguyOne of my friends built a WRAP board. It turned out pretty awesome.09:54
myren400mW atheros indoors is... uh.. homicidal.09:54
danguyI wish my WRT54GL had USB...09:54
c0ffeemyren, a mobile phone has 2W09:54
myrenc0ffee: mobile phone isnt sending full power 24/709:55
danguyI have one of the 300mW PCMCIA Atheros cards.09:55
danguyNormally I use the intel wireless, but when wardriving, the extra boost is good.09:55
c0ffeemyren, wlan neither09:55
myrenthe new routers kinda keep sucking.  8mb ram / 32 mb flash is really the most you can get away with without mounting external hd space09:55
myrenc0ffee: uh, at my work, it is operating 24/7 sending copious data09:56
myrenthats why we have multiple routers doing 75 and in some cases 33 mW.09:56
c0ffeethe wlan cards normally only use their full power if they can't keep the connection up09:56
rabelaisdoes bora have SIP support?09:57
gpddanguy: if have run out of instructions - where to next with sdk?09:58
danguygpd: Xephyr is running and all?09:58
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gpdno - missed that bit - /me continues09:59
danguygpd: Well, one that is done, you can just work with apt and then start actually compiling stuff.10:00
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danguyImportant command: if it says you cannot change profiles as a session is running, type "sb-conf killall"10:01
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gpdflippin' sweet!  i have it running the gui :D10:02
danguyAlthough, it does lack a bit, eh?10:02
gpdmaemopad - but not much else10:02
danguyFollowing that, I am just starting into the Maemo 3.0 Tutorial.10:03
danguyI installed osso-xterm first, actually.10:03
gpdso in theory can i install enough to make it look like the real device? or is this cut down for development?10:04
danguyI do not have a real device yet, so I have no idea.10:04
danguyI assume there is proprietary stuff missing that cannot be installed.10:05
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gpdhmm osso-xterm failing with errors10:07
danguyBTW, I could not get osso-xterm running in the X86 target.10:07
danguyIt ran fine for me in the ARMEL target.10:07
gpdthe instructions have you run from X86 - is that the normal place to start?10:08
danguyI have no idea.10:08
danguyBut compiling and executing will be faster.10:08
danguySo, for normal development, I assume it is the default.10:09
suihkulokkidanguy: did you install x86 rootstrap to your x86 target?10:09
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danguyI used the automated script10:09
suihkulokkiah, ok10:09
gpdso there are a bunch of packages on here that are not available on the n800 - eg. vim - is this in an unstable repository or something?10:10
gpdor is this just the x86 target having loads of stuff...10:10
danguyAsk me in a month... :)10:11
danguyWell, i am very new at this10:12
danguyIn a month, I will probably know better.10:12
gpdnot as new as me -- 24hour veteran!10:12
gpdok -- all this stuff is from scratchbox :(10:12
c0ffeeyou can always grab the sources for the 770 package and recompile it10:12
gpdanything with 'virtual'10:13
c0ffeei think jaffa has it10:13
danguy" stop" does not seem to work in the ARMEL target.10:13
gpdc0ffee: just download the source deb for 770 and recompile?10:16
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gpd[my cluelessness will help you when writing the user guide!]10:16
|tbb|anyone knows how to use the mobizine thing ?10:19
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gpdno sign of the source package for vpnc10:22
danielsodds are it's just the same as debian10:22
gpdso all these packages are maintained by random people... ?10:23
gpdwho submit to the wiki on
gpdis there an equivalent of ubuntu 'masters of the universe'?10:24
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gpdie. a team that coordinates the packages into a single repository?10:24
tigertgpd: not yet10:25
X-Fadetigert: Have you seen Ferenc lately?10:25
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gpdhmm... so i downloaded the debian source.deb - patched, compiled in armel sbox and it seems to run...10:36
gpdcan it really be that easy? this must be the exception to the rule10:36
gpdor am i fundmentally missing the point10:36
c0ffeethe main difficulty is to hildonize the gui10:37
c0ffeeif you don't need gui support it's that easy10:37
gpdwow - very cool10:38
c0ffeehowever, commonly an application like vim is too heavy for maemo10:38
gpdi imagine it would be10:38
c0ffeeso you might want to use a special embedded version or strip as many components as possible10:38
gpdthere is vim-tiny for ubuntu maybe that is suitable10:38
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alumpis there a working version of xterm for n800?10:42
JaffaMorning, all10:42
gpdalump: yes - osso-xterm10:43
tigertX-Fade: he was online yesterday10:43
alumpgpd, can install it, need packages that are uninstallable with gui-installer10:44
gpdalump: you need to activate red-pill (search maemo) then add etc and it should appear in application manager10:45
inzor you can use the one from " bora main"10:45
inzAlthough there's a bit of issue w/ it, that I've yet to resolve10:46
gpdinz is it fairly safe to add that repository for n800?10:47
inzgpd, it's made for N800, so it should be10:47
gpdnot a great deal in there yet - but one to watch10:48
alumpgpd, yes thanks, how long this red-pill feature has existed?10:48
gpdalump: no idea - i am a tablet owner since about y'day afternoon! :)10:49
inzalump, since IT200610:49
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tigertinz: you have a working term for the 800?10:50
gpdinz: have you tried maemo-gaim?10:50
tigertI am just setting up sbox for the bora stuff10:50
gpdtigert: i do - works fine10:51
inztigert, yes, although there's some issues10:51
inzgpd, yeah, it works just fine from mistral repo10:51
inztigert, somewhy the input method only allows alphanumeric until you tap the term widget10:52
keesjdid somebody try to compile a programs with the "-pg" flag on 3.0?10:53
jtokash2not sure if any of you use my readermini site, but I just finished some code changes that make startup super fast.
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jtokash2just realized I left alpha site on that title... it's on the main site now.  readermini.com10:54
Guardian sad news :((10:54
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slapin_nbhi, all!10:54
slapin_nbcould anybody provide link on developer program with n800?10:55
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dwdslapin_nb: It's invite only.10:55
keesjGuardian, Nokia will not integrate and make OS2007 available for 770 , it's a bit hard yes10:56
tigertinz: ok10:57
tigertinz: same repo just bora as dist name?10:58
keesjI guess it must be clear how long nokia will support the hard and software they make.10:58
gpdwould there be a gpg key for hackers repos? i added it by hand to sources.list - maybe i should use the app cat10:59
inztigert, aye11:01
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inzor should be...11:03
gpdwget | sudo apt-key add ?11:05
inzIf you want to do it like that, then add -O - to wget and - to apt-key11:06
gpdclearly no wget11:06
gpdok - will work it out11:07
gpdout of interest - would the application manager have done that automatically?11:07
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gpdapt-key add pubkey.txt11:09
gpdW: GPG error: bora Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY 3A312B21B9E8157211:09
inzYeah, noticed11:10
Guardiankeesj: but it's surely the reason why there is this 99euros offer11:12
inzAh, seems that reprepro uses the default key, ignoring what I put in SignWith -field11:12
inzNow it should work11:12
Guardiankeesj: nokia loses money selling a n800 at this price11:12
JaffaAny guesses as to how they did: ?11:13
JaffaTV out would be very cool11:13
gpdisn't that vnc client11:13
Guardianor it's photoshoped :)11:14
inzJaffa, at least the image was raped while scaling down11:14
gpdinz: fix0r'd11:14
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gpdMaattaa giving me a demo of the soon to be released navigation app for the N800 The N800 via VNC on an LCD screen11:15
Jaffagpd: yeah, VNC server on the 770 would make sense I suppose11:16
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AD-N770good morning11:16
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inzJaffa, x11vnc at least works beautyfully11:16
gpdinz: you will probably get less faqs if you put the gpg key and instructions on the front page of hackers site11:17
Jaffagpd: in fact, it says VNC on the related article11:18
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gpdJaffa: that was what i was quoting11:18
inzgpd, I could promote the contents of the page to front page, yeah11:19
gpdmaybe with something like:  scp or copy the pubkey.txt file to your tablet, then as root do apt-key add pubkey.txt, then apt-get upgrade again11:21
inzgpd, but now that it's the correct one, it can be found on common keyservers too11:21
gpdi have been using debian for 8 years and i still need assistance once and again11:21
Jaffagpd: indeed, I've lost the ability to read11:22
inzHmm, the ApplicationRepositories page claims that won't work without the gpg key from command line.11:23
gpdi've lost the ability to do anything other than play with this device oO11:23
inzThat's quite weird, as the key I've been (accidentally) using to sign it with has not been available anywhere11:23
gpdjtokash2: just playing with google reader for the first time (been using liferea) - looks v. nice - will try out your app tomorrow11:28
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gpdanyone happen to know if compUSA puts the sierra/sonoma keyboards out to be played with? - if not i just need to decide and order from amazon11:35
qgilGuardian: " keesj: but it's surely the reason why there is this 99euros offer" - the aim of the program is to help developers getting sooner & easier a N800 to work with, it has no relation with a hard/soft support policy11:37
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tnbtany infos where I can download gaim with all available protocols?11:43
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gpdtnbt: n800 or 770?11:44
gpd <-- sierra all the way11:47
tnbton I just found a gaim package without any protocols included11:49
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inztnbt, the protocols are in the same repo11:50
tnbtand this one was even not installable (port page was at
inztnbt, they're just installed separately11:50
inztnbt, IT2005 or 2006?11:50
tnbtinz: you are talking about the berlios port?11:50
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* gpd completes order of stowaway sierra - goes to bed - thanks all11:54
inztnbt, I'm actually mostly talking about the maemo-hackers port, which is pretty much the same as the berlios port11:55
tnbtwill check11:55
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Jaffakoen: how's it going with stock Gtk & Maemo 3 components?11:58
koenJaffa: pretty good11:58
koenJaffa: apart from license problems11:58
moo_mouhow good is the 800 for ebooks?11:59
koenI'd think with all the references to nokia legal being a bitch the license files would actually contain licenses12:01
Jaffakoen: indeed. What's your aim? apt-gettable components over the top of a end-user image?12:01
koeninstead of references to missing copyright statements12:01
Jaffakoen: yeah, a rather shocking state of affairs12:01
koenJaffa: my aim is to have maemo stuff working over a stock base system (e.g. ubuntu on the desktop, gpe on your ipaq, etc)12:02
tnbtwhen installing gaim I get the message "installation not possible"12:03
tnbtany idea why this happens?12:03
keesjtnbt, try command line perhaps there a dependencies missing12:04
Jaffakoen: Cool. What about a 770 without a stock base system? Part of the same project, or a different one? No point starting one of those if it can be a version of yours12:04
AD-N770Has the N800 an screen cover as 770 ?12:04
tnbtupps, but it looks like that the program is installed nevertheless12:04
JaffaAD-N770: no12:04
JaffaAD-N770: but it's apparently a much strong, harder screen.12:04
koenJaffa: no idea yet12:04
koenJaffa: I loathe debian packaging12:04
sxpert-workJaffa: problem is, when in a pocket, you can have a myriad of things touching the screen, doing random things in the applications12:05
Jaffakoen: heh12:05
Jaffasxpert-work: I didn't say it was a good thing ;-/12:05
koenJaffa: right now I'm using openembedded since that generates .ipk and .deb files for me12:05
sxpert-workJaffa: I don't think it was a good idea. just as bad as that silver finish case12:06
Jaffakoen: cool12:07
sxpert-workbloody marketters and their "silver paint finish on anything" meme12:07
koenJaffa: maemo3 depends on gtk 2.10, glib 2.12, etc12:10
koenJaffa: so apt-get update wouldn't work anyway on a stock 77012:10
koenJaffa: unless you disable lifeguard reset, login via ssh, etc12:10
X-Fadekoen: You'd have to update to herring first..12:10
sxpert-workhow's cairo running on the 800 ?12:10
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koensxpert-work: pretty sweet I think, since the n800 has an fpu12:11
sxpert-workkoen: it has an fpu ? wow... now that's what I call progress :D12:12
muzz2kls -l /var/log/apache2/12:14
muzz2koops wrong window :-/  sorry people12:14
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vidarinoJaffa: you rang? :)12:18
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jtokashthis guy seems to be getting at the video from the n800 webcam12:24
inzmuzz, you did it all wrong, you're supposed to do: sudo tail /var/log/apache2/access.log<enter>ase345Asdf<enter>12:24
Jaffavidarino: indeed, I'm finally working on mud-builder ( and fancied using netcat as an example - since you've ported it already, I was just touching base that when I announce mud-builder on maemo-dev and reference a new netcat pacakge you won't be offended ;-)12:24
Jaffajtokash: the API is nicely documented on maemo.org12:25
dwdJaffa: Argh, you got me. I thought "MUDs on a 770? Haven't seen MUDs in years".12:26
Jaffadwd: sorry ;-)12:27
jtokashcool, Jaffa12:27
moo_mouthat page is evil12:28
* moo_mou gets sick12:28
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vidarinoJaffa: offended? no no, not at all. go right ahead. :)12:28
vidarinoit wasn't much work anyway. IIRC, i just downloaded the souce, applied a debian patch and hit "make".12:28
Jaffavidarino: indeed, that's why I'm choosing it as my first example :)12:29
vidarinoah. :)12:29
JaffaAllow me to concentrate on the framework rather than the porting12:30
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JaffaI imagine getting a Maemo-uploadable netcat would be a case of including an XML file like: <package><fetch type="debian">netcat</fetch></package>12:30
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Jaffakoen: re missing source, also as the recent GPL stuff has proved pointing to upstream source isn't enough for a Linux distribution :-/12:44
koenJaffa: :)12:45
Jaffakoen: indeed, so it might be worth making Nokia aware of it ;-)12:51
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florian_kcgood morning12:53
nelsonBOMYep, pointing upstream doesn't work.  Redistribution has its price.12:56
dwdThere's other often-overlooked things in the GPL, like if you distribute a binary that's been built with a typical ./configure;make, you need to "distribute" the ./configure arguments, too.12:58
nelsonBOMThat's just an argument against using configure.13:00
dwdnelsonBOM: Well, it's easy to rectify, if your source redist is virtually any kind of Linux package.13:01
dwdnelsonBOM: Since those include the ./configure line in their spec, rules, etc files.13:01
nelsonBOMJust include it in the binary's meta-information.13:03
dwdnelsonBOM: That's probably reasonable, too.13:04
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inzIt seems that the binaries in bora repository are newer than the sources13:06
dwdinz: Source mismatch?13:07
inzdwd, dunno, but if you go alphabetically through, 3 of the 5 first packages have newer binaries than sources13:09
nelsonBOMIsn't that how it should be?13:09
dwdinz: It might be the upload order. Remember, there's no buildbot etc like Debian.13:09
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inzdwd, I'd guess the sources are for 1.2006.47-20 and the binaries for 2.2006.51-613:12
dwdinz: If that's the case, it's a GPL infringement. Hopefully it's not, though.13:13
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inzdwd, GPL does allow you to only send the sources by mail13:14
inzdwd, so just not having them up on a server doesn't make it infringement13:15
koen'on request'13:15
inzkoen, I thought it was implicit13:15
dwdinz: Sort of true. It mandates that with the binaries you include either the source or an offer to provide it.13:15
inzdwd, true, haven't checked if such offer is in the package13:16
koenthere was some haggling about preferred medium iirc13:16
dwdinz: In this case, because the packages are in a known system which provides both binary and sources, that would, I'd assume, be the offer.13:16
jonekhey guys! some phoneME news from my 770 :-) -> *CONGRATULATIONS: test Test completed with 411 tests passed and 0 failures13:16
dwdjonek: Congrats. :-)13:16
inzdwd, well, in any case I'd guess it's a human error, but tis nasty anyway13:16
inzOr maybe the mirroring server just arent up to date13:17
koeninz: happens everytime there is an update to maemo13:17
Jaffajonek: ace13:17
dwdinz: Yes, it's probably just a slip-up, but Nokia ought to be made aware.13:18
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nelsonBombayHarald will want to know; if only to timestamp a file.13:20
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* Jaffa does his ask of the day (I think I know the answer, fortunately): anyone got a Developer Discount code yet?13:22
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X-FadeJaffa: I think when somebody DOES receive it, they will be shouting it here ;)13:24
JaffaX-Fade: here's hoping ;)13:24
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inzWoohooo, yay, yippee!!!11!13:25
X-FadeAren't we all? :P13:25
inzNevermind that...13:25
JaffaYay, Sylpheed works on the N800 (apparently)13:31
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MoRpHeUzout ?13:32
nelsonBombayI hope they'll announce when the email is being sent, so I can check to see if it got caught in my spam filters.13:35
nelsonBombay'twould be a shame to miss out because of a lost email.13:35
JaffanelsonBombay: that's my fear, too.13:36
Jaffadwd: ...and too, probably.13:36
dwdJaffa: Plan.13:37
inzdwd, telnet 25\nEHLO\nMAIL\nRCPT\nDATA\nBuy viagra!\n.\n13:37
* Jaffa 's always wary of editing his spam filters in case I break receiving all mail (again)13:37
Jaffainz: is there a 75% discount on it?13:37
JaffaAnd the mail seems to be missing the promo code.13:38
vidarinoyou receive the code with your first shipment of viagra.13:38
inzJaffa, no, there's 100% discount, you'll get 100% less viagra for the price13:38
vidarinothat's a pretty good discount!13:39
Jaffainz: and the advantage is I'll be too busy, err, "elsewhere" to worry about N800 discounts ;-)13:39
moo_moun800 and viagra...that's totally win/win13:39
* Jaffa might start reselling N800's at 50% discount. You'll even get to choose if you want the left or the right half.13:39
inzI think it's just plain cruel to send viagra spam to geeks, like we'd ever get laid anyway13:39
* vidarino snickers13:40
moo_mouthere are some girls that actually like geeks13:40
jaekgeeks actually do pretty well in this modern technologically savvy world... geeks are prime mates ;)13:40
inzmoo, not quite as many as there are geeks13:40
* vidarino <- taken. ;)13:40
moo_mouI can't help that13:41
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moo_mouthat just means that I have a bigger selection to choose from :P13:41
vidarinoi'm very geeky, too. just pointing out that it's possible. :]13:41
JaffaMrs Jaffa has been the prime motivator on new hardware for the Freevo box in our house :)13:41
* moo_mou perks up13:41
moo_mouI somehow broke my media center capability after the first use13:42
vidarinohmm, freevo. it's been a while since i checked that out.13:42
* moo_mou sighs13:42
inzCome on, don't ruin good joke with facts, I've my beloved SO too.13:42
* vidarino sorries13:43
Jaffamoo_mou/vidarino: I used Freevo for years, but switched to MythTV when I recently got my DVB-T card. Now switched back to Freevo with the resurgent 1.x development and even contributed a few patches (my theme's nearly finished too:
moo_mouI just got a media center PC last month13:43
vidarinojaffa: nice13:44
moo_mouand I dunno what happened13:44
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vidarinoi've been using my home-brew (dumb) menu system, mostly.13:44
vidarinojust a prettified file browser, basically.13:44
moo_mouI had no choice in the matter13:44
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jaekyou always have a choice13:45
moo_mouit was either wait weeks for a custom built PC or get one from Best Buy13:45
moo_mounot when a company pays for it ;)13:45
* Jaffa hopes there aren't any MythTV devs here but the best that can be said of it is that it's pretty. It's TV functionality's OK, but for non-TV media (e.g. video, CDs, DVDs, music) it's atrocious.13:46
moo_mouI've been looking at a fun toy to get away from my comp13:46
moo_mouwhile still keeping most of the fun things about my comp13:46
moo_mouso I'm dying to get an n80013:47
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philnmoo_mou: tried Elisa?13:53
vidarinoJaffa: do you know if freevo can be (customly) remote controlled somehow?13:53
vidarinoe.g. via http?13:53
Jaffavidarino: yes, there's a web interface but also a TCP command interface. A custom Maemo remote is on my to-investigate list.13:53
vidarinoi've been pondering making a remote-control app for the 770 for my tv-pc.13:53
vidarinoah. nice. :)13:54
vidarinomy idea was to use a "smart" web-page (using JS / AJAX) for it. for fast-as-heck prototyping and easy theming.13:55
moo_moulooks pretty13:55
moo_mouI just can't understand how I broke it :(13:55
moo_mouso how many of you have the n800 already?13:59
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Jaffaphiln: looks interesting14:02
philnJaffa: yes.. we have plans to add a client app for the N770 / N800 :)14:03
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VeggenI'll probably buy an N800 when it can be bought in Norway...two SD-slots, double RAM is worth it for me.14:08
moo_mouI'm just curious as to how it is with blogging and whatnot14:08
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Jaffaphiln: what's the media player under the covers?14:09
moo_mouor logging onto password-protected sites14:09
philnJaffa: GStreamer14:09
Jaffaphiln: Right.14:10
Jaffa is a demo of Freevo 2's "under development" GUI framework14:10
mgedminmoo_mou: the 770 was good for password-protected sites14:10
mgedminwell, HTTP basic auth14:11
mgedminworked quite well14:11
mgedminit remembered my credentials, like firefox14:11
philnJaffa: looks nice14:11
moo_mouI don't want to lug a laptop around everywhere, so it would be nice to blog and upload pictures from the road14:12
koenJaffa: does freevo still insist on adding all freqs by hand in a python file without a proper doc for the format?14:13
Jaffakoen: no, not for DVB (dunno about analogue)14:16
koenJaffa: I fear mythtv is the only option for a 2 computer setup (1 analog tuner in each computer)14:17
suihkulokkimythtv is crashy and bloated to no limit, dvb sucks on freevo, ui sucks on vdr, elisa does not have dvb..14:17
* dwd sends his bragging email to the list.14:18
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Jaffakoen: probably right. Unfortunately it's separate backend process and dependence on MySQL makes for a painful experience on a single, low-powered box (surely the majority of PVRs?_14:20
* koen loathes mysql14:20
Jaffasuihkulokki: Freevo's not too bad for DVB, though cos I'm just using an S-Video cable I don't watch live TV through it, only recordings.14:21
koenalthough my low powered box is a 2.4GHz celeron14:21
JaffaBeats, somewhat, my VIA EPIA 1GHz box (newly upgraded from 600MHz fanless)14:21
koenI got a good deal on an asus pundit barebone14:22
suihkulokkiI never had performance problems with mythtv backend.. and the backend/frontend separation is one of the good things in myth14:22
koenwhich seemed more reliable than 'bad caps' epia bords14:22
Jaffasuihkulokki: Freevo's got a separate record server, written in Python which takes 1/10th of the mythtv-backend and MySQL dependency, the frontend can also be used without the backend.14:23
suihkulokkiUnfortunately the backend includes stuff like dbb eit parsing in one of its many threads, and if any of the threads crashes, the whole pisa-insipired archictecture collapses14:23
JaffaAlthough, MythTV's frontend is nice - especially when watching recordings (ideally I'd even use it to watch Freevo recordings)14:24
mgedmindwd: telomer sounds interesting14:25
mgedmindoes it need anything special from the IMAP server?14:25
dwdmgedmin: Doesn't *need*, but will use.14:26
dwdmgedmin: You can't do the 55M message forward tricks without a full Lemonade server setup, though.14:26
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mgedminit's good that I don't have any 55M messages then ;)14:27
mgedmindoes it support IMAP and SMTP over TLS, and also SMTP authentication?14:27
mgedmindoes it support IMAP folders?14:27
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dwdmgedmin: Heh. Yes, it has mailbox support.14:27
suihkulokkidwd: is it possible to implement lemonade stuff in dovecot?14:28
dwdmgedmin: It'll handle multiple mail servers, TLS via STARTTLS, supports a number of SASL mechanisms.14:28
mgedminsounds too good to be true14:28
dwdsuihkulokki: I think Timo is doing some. He's in the WG, IIRC.14:28
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dwdsuihkulokki: Cyrus IMAP 2.3.x supports, I think, all of the Lemonade profile, but I don't think there's an open source submission server (ESMTP) yet.14:29
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keesjit is nice to know what people are doing14:31
X-FadeShould it be possible to use the opera flash plugin from N800 on 770? Or does it have processor optimizations?14:34
dwdsuihkulokki: Actually, scratch that, Timo appears to only be in IMAPEXT, not Lemonade.14:35
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jonekis the head set of the n800 a bluetooth one? does that mean taht we now get BT head set support for the 770, too?14:41
danielsthe headset shipped with the device is wired14:41
jonekhas anybody checked if a BT head set is usable with the n800 then?14:43
keesjdaniels, but is it BT?14:44
keesjo, sorry misread wired v.s weird14:45
dwdkeesj: It's his Australian accent.14:45
jonekhi keesj, phoneME is working now. do you have suggestions on how to proceed for GUI support?14:47
jonekI've got reply from Chris Plummer from Sun about another team that was successfull on phoneME+770. they used a stripped down QT on the 770 and had problems with user input/keyboard of course.14:48
keesjnot right now , but i am more the willing to spend some time on it later today so brainstorm14:49
Jaffajonek: my first thought would be to provide a Gtk+ peer, in place of the QT one. Then you get the input for free.14:50
keesjbut you have a lot of integration to do14:50
jonekJaffa: that was my first thought, too. but I don't know how to do that.14:51
danielsdwd: heh14:51
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* jonek has to read more info about how to extend/modify phoneME.14:52
jonekChris Plummer is very supportive - I'll ask him now.14:52
jonekwould it make sense to give you guys the chance to download the current phoneME build even if it's not capable of showing GUI?14:53
Jaffajonek: and as keesj said yesterday, a J2ME peer doesn't need a lot14:53
Jaffajonek: yeah14:54
jonek"doesn't need a lot" is relative :) -> more info appreciated14:55
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Jaffajonek: I'm not sure without going through the QT one closely15:11
|tbb|anyone familar with maemo mapper?15:14
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keesjyes , midp2 only contains a few gui elements. and there are at least two java based implementations that use lightweight widgets. in such a situation you really only need a peer "drawing" area. perhaps some work for userinput but since j2me apps don't expect to much that can not be hard either15:19
Jaffakeesj: exactly what I was thinking15:20
keesjperhaps more work is to implement the different optional API's like webcam access sound , isolated storage,15:20
keesjI have not looked at what Phone2ME provides15:20
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rob_whi all . is the N800 capable to stream video , like youtube or realplayer out of the box ?15:21
keesjOn a personal level I would also look if nobody is implementing the peers using wxWidgets, and put some effort in porting wxwidgets to hildon15:21
keesj(because I happen to like ruby and that there is a good ruby wxWidgets project going on15:22
bergierob_w: the report is that youtube works, but with low framerate15:23
Jaffarob_w: RealPlayer should be as good as it is on the 770 (if not better)15:23
rob_wi wonder if it was without flaws as even a 1ghz umpc has his problems doing that15:24
Jaffarob_w: I have no problem with the "standard" BBC Real streams.15:28
JaffaAww, how nice - a user says I should get a developer N800; does that add weight to my name? ;-)15:28
keesjJaffa, what you say15:30
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koenJaffa: that just means you know how to create fake users ;)15:31
X-Fadebergie: I committed another fix for test.maemo html. If ferenc updates the site with r160 and r161, I can try to fix the IE mess :)15:32
Jaffakoen: ...and I'd've got away with it too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids.15:33
bergieX-Fade: OK, I'll ping him15:33
X-Fadebergie: great ;)15:33
bergiethanks for the patches, BTW15:34
X-Fadebergie: np..15:35
X-Fadebergie: is you right or you are related to that?15:36
bergierelated, yes15:39
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inzooh, just noticed that the "internal" memory card can be changed on-the-fly15:48
inzin n800 that is15:49
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Veggeninz: which internal? The non-SD one?15:52
jtrathe one under battery - I expected that15:57
inzveggen, the one below back cver15:57
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dwdkeesj: wxWidgets is okay, but having done a fair bit of both that and GTK+, GTK+ is much better.16:08
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Veggenjtra: I was confused by "on-the-fly". I don't think he actually meant "while the device is running" ;-)16:11
keesjmy girlfriend just has won 1 minute of free shopping in a supermarket16:12
Fatalshit, 1 minute.. stressful16:13
keesjany plans to sell n800's in a supermarket Amsterdam?16:13
Veggenkeesj: I'd plan it in detail the day before :)16:13
Veggen(with on-site-reconnaisance)16:13
dwdkeesj: My wife does free shopping in the supermarket all the time, for hours. She begins by saying the magical words "Dave, I'm borrowing your card"16:14
keesjIt's really the kind of thing I was dreaming of a kid16:14
Fataldwd: :D16:14
Jaffakeesj: does it have any electrical items?16:14
dwdkeesj: Are there lots of rules, like only one of anything, etc?16:14
keesjcheap phone's I think16:14
keesjI don't know the rules yet.16:16
keesjI can already see here grapping all the stuff like a beast16:17
keesj(this is the shop)
dwdkeesj: If they have no rules, tell her to grab the cash registers.16:19
X-Fadekeesj must love his "Bonuskaart" :)16:19
keesjThis is where my first nokia 3310 came from.16:19
keesjno I ussualy make fun of "Bonuskaart/air-miles" and such things, I guess she was right (this time).16:20
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keesjgoogle:  ah + nokia == Ah, the Nokia 770, it only gets better16:22
qgiltalking about paying and saving, any tip about banks in Finland? Is it there any option wuth some kind of ethical/social compromise like ?16:24
danielsqgil: not that i'm aware of, sorry16:25
qgilok, then I'll go for the one accomplishing web standards and not punishing for not having the "recommended" OS16:27
VeggenHmmf. The N800 is not available here, yet...16:27
qgilwhen online ban king16:27
danielsqgil: i'm with nordea, whose online banking seems fine, and is available in english16:28
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qgilgot the tip, thanks daniels  :)16:28
danielsno worries16:28
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VeggenNordea, I guess, is a maximum-profit, standard bank?16:28
danielstry to get a real bank card if you can, since their visa electron is crap16:29
danielscan't use it that much online or overseas16:29
danielsVeggen: naturally16:29
Veggendaniels: I understood his question otherwise than you, that he wanted a bank with a conscience.16:29
qgilI hope we won't get a spam-alike email from you explaining that you are in Australia and unable to recover the fortune you have in a bank account in Finland and offering a saucy commission if...  ;)16:30
qgilVeggen: do you have any suggestion?16:30
Veggenqgil: Not exactly :) Dunno Finland banking.16:30
danielsqgil: heh16:30
danielsVeggen: right, hence < daniels> qgil: not that i'm aware of, sorry16:31
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Veggenoh, sorry. missed a few lines here.16:31
tigertdaniels: nordea has a real Visa card as well16:34
tigertthe electron is mostly for kids16:34
tigertI have a combo, bankcard + visa16:34
danielstigert: yeah, i need to get me one of those16:35
tigertso I can pull money from an ATM directly from my account16:35
danielspreferably by friday, but odds are low16:35
tigertand also use it as a VISA16:35
tigertit takes a bit of time to get one16:35
tigertthose they dont do while you wait at the bank16:35
tigertbut I think you might be able to order one from the online bank tool16:35
tigertnot 100% sure though16:35
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dwdJaffa: Hmmm... NetSurf - still working on that?16:48
Jaffadwd: Yup. Why?16:49
Jaffadwd: It's got the same issue as Minimo in that it draws its own form components, including text boxes. So need to do some hackery to get that working with the Gtk+ IMs - that's the only thing holding up a release.16:50
dwdIs it lighter than Opera? Most of the sites I view with the 770 don't use Flash, JScript, etc, and Opera is quite heavyweight.16:50
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dwdDo the forms work, though? I mean, at a basic level?16:50
danielstigert: cool, i'll check it out, thanks16:51
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Jaffadwd: Yeah, it's lighter than Opera and forms work at a basic level. A non-basic level if you've got a Bluetooth keyboard.16:57
dwdJaffa: Ah, yes. You'd not be able to enter text into them.16:58
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pahartikqgil: about banks in Finland: Osuuspankki: "", "" (decent PDA service, I have only used that with Lynx), Sampo: "" (messed up with frames)17:10
suihkulokkimany of the banks require finnish social security number before they open a account17:11
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pahartikqgil: all banks probably offer MasterCard and Visa in Finland, and they use joint management company for that, "Luottokunta"17:13
pahartikqgil: all banks (AFAIK) offer their own cards too, with which one can pay at almost any store within country... if payment is less than 50 EUR, it will be charged from account within few days... if amount of payment exceeds 50 EUR, it gets reserved from account immediately17:17
framerateAnyone have a good understanding of OpenVPN? My wireless network uses a VPN @ work and I wanted to see if I could get my n800 online here :/17:18
glass_i think it's 150e, the limit. at 50e they have to check id though17:18
glass_(the limit being the limit for at which they check, might check at lower if they wish i suppose)17:18
pahartikqgil: no fee per payment, but some stores without electronic card reader require minimum payment of at least 5 EUR17:18
glass_some bars have 5e minimum too17:19
* pahartik notices that discussion is drifting way off-topic for #Maemo channel17:21
dwdFinland living usually seems on-topic, as far as I can tell. :-)17:21
glass_usually it's the crappier kind of bars that have the limit too17:23
glass_minimum that is17:23
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* pahartik points at "" as good reference about public services in Finland17:24
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florian_kcIn Germany there is a similar company to cover these payments - but it _much_ more expensive and therefore only a few shops accept credit cards.17:24
dwdflorian_kc: Germany *is* off-topic. We're only meant to talk about banking in Finland. ;-)17:27
pahartikglass_: I do not know much about crappy bars, nowadays I refuse to buy anything from ones that allow smoking inside... but I have managed to pay without paper/metal money for years17:28
* Pierre managed to pay without plastic money for years, I'm a resistant :)17:29
pahartikflorian_kc: I think I pay 2,5 EUR per moon for having card and using it as much as bank account balance permits (my balance is low, I admit)17:30
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glass_bankcard is really really convinient in finland17:31
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pahartikglass_: yes, I only look for ATM after some payment cannot be made by card or CGI service of bank... that usually happens less than once per year17:34
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* pahartik wonders about where topic was last seen before it disappeared into surrounding noise17:37
pcfeFWIW, any european card will work fine too, I've been living here with my card for the last year17:38
glass_any major cc works fine17:39
pahartikpcfe: long as it contains international credit card?17:39
glass_they're going to be rolling that european bankcard system and phasing out national bankcards17:39
glass_me using bankcard to differiantate from credit cards17:40
pcfepahartik: yes, a credit card, the bank card I only use to retrieve money from ATM17:40
glass_not sure what the proper term is.. some use debit card17:40
dwdI've been using my Maestro/Cirrus card for years across Europe.17:40
pahartikglass_: unfortunately...17:40
florian_kcthese even work in china :-)17:40
dwd(Those being international arrangements for debit and ATM cards respectively)17:41
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jonekI found the info that is needed for connecting phoneME-GUI and the GTK+ of the 770: <- page 149ff17:41
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* pahartik fights some more with GTK on Maemo application17:45
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pcfeflorian_kc: Am I right in assuming that needs an s/maemo2/maemo3/g for the GPE stuff?17:51
florian_kcpcfe: would be a good idea... and a s/mistral/bora17:53
pcfeflorian_kc: OK, will do17:53
gpdwhat's the word on N800 screen protectors (apart from /screen is tough/) - would 770 ones fit? do 770 ones exist?17:54
frameratehey gpd.. I'm wondering the same thing17:55
gpdi still have my factory plastic on - which is of course now scratched!17:55
Tak770 comes with one, and by most accounts it wouldn't fit17:55
nomisgpd: I once bought some for the 770 on ebay. Did not manage to put them on properly (probably did not work clean enough) and ditched them again.17:55
nomisI'd guess that they'd work on the 800 as well, not tried though.17:56
gpdnomis: what manufacturer?17:57
gpdok - this is the second day with N800 - and second day when this has happened in the morning.  power on device - click presence on - searching - no network found -- 45 seconds - finds my wifi - attempts to connect - 'network error' - searches again - then connects. weird17:58
nomisgpd: well, that was someone who bought protection foil in bulk from 3M and cut them to size individually (even before the device was actually on the market).17:58
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gpdi see. i need to google further then.17:59
framerategreat my N800 is just booting/crashing/rebooting now17:59
Disconnectframerate: what changed?17:59
gpdI don't believe the hype about the screen being tough - my palm graffiti area is completely worn away with scratches.18:00
frameratefroze up on a memory card when I was hooking it up via USB18:00
dwdframerate: And have you updated to the latest firmware?18:00
framerateNope, was trying to do that today but can't find it on the nokiausa sight18:00
frameratemoot point now though if it won't reboot into the OS18:00
Veggenframerate: corrupted flash?18:00
Veggeneh, corruptet swap. I meant.18:01
pcfeflorian_kc: done18:01 you have a card with swap on, in it?18:01
dwdframerate: Tried booting it with the cards removed?18:01
florian_kcpcfe: thanks!18:01
Veggen(if so, I'd try to remove it)18:01
framerateyeah the card is out right now, might be the problem (I hadn't set it up for swap, though)18:01
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dwdframerate: No, if the card's out, swap won't be tried.18:02
dwdframerate: Or at least it'll fail cleanly.18:02
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*** Disconnect changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 770 updates will continue but Bora (OS2007) is not backported"18:03
Disconnectadded windows image link18:03
framerateok popped another card in there and it booted... and then crashed again.18:03
JaffaAh - I was just thinking: we need a changelog for the topic...18:03
Tak /topic append | Topic changelog http://...18:04
Disconnectparse it out of the logs18:04
frameratenokia screen-> holding hands screen -> white screen -> repeat18:05
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gpdframerate: if you ever get your n800 working again - there are cleartouch protectors for 770 - but people moan about difficult to apply18:09
X-Fadeframerate: Did you activate swap on a memorycard?18:09
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frameratewhoa ok, i stopped paying attention and somehow it just booted up :/18:10
framerateI'm currently back on the desktop18:10
framerateX-Fade: no, I didn't activate it yet18:10
X-FadeYou can check the reboot reason..18:10
||cwwith 128Meg ram you shouldn't need swap anymore18:10
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Takwe'll find a way to use that ram18:11
X-Fadeframerate: check /proc/bootreason18:11
dwd128M of RAM should be enough for... Oh, wait.18:11
||cwi'm sure I *could*, but with 64 I can use it up with a single web page18:11
framerateit has something to do with the memory card being corrupt, now when I try to open the card it crashes file manager18:11
||cwI did say "need"18:12
framerateX-Fade: sw_rst18:12
dwdframerate: Ah, I've had that on the 770. You need to reformat the card.18:12
X-Fadeframerate: and what does /var/lib/dsme/stats say?18:12
X-FadeYou should be able to just cat that too..18:12
gpd[am i correct that cards cannot be ext3?]18:12
X-Fadegpd: They can. You just have to load the kernel module..18:13
||cwthey can, but it's not a good idea because of the write leveling18:13
dwdgpd: I think they can probably be anything you like, but ext3 isn't the best filesystem for those cards anyway.18:13
pcfeI've taklen the liberty to update with those I found to have bora parts. Please do tell if this is OK and back out chnage if not18:13
||cwjournaling at the very least doubles the amount of write, if not more18:13
framerateX-Fade: can't cat it, it's a directory18:14
gpdok - thanks for the info18:14
mgedminframerate: cat the files under it, specifically lifeguard_resets18:14
mgedminnah, ignore the others, just /var/lib/dsme/stats/lifeguard_resets18:15
frameratemy memory card is working now, too.. this is odd...18:15
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mgedmindmesg may contain interesting entries regarding your memory card18:16
dragornarguably the flash mapper inside the card will do write-leveling internally to a moderate degree.  I don't know of anyone doing proper testing on several cards to see what the true burnout rates are on modern cards, it's one of those things with a lot of warnings and not a lot of evidence.18:16
Takafternoon, kender18:16
framerateX-Fade: /usr/bin/maemo_af_destop : 22 * | /usr/bin/obexsrv -1 : 118:16
X-Fadeframerate: what mgedmin said. lifegard_resets lists which processes were a problem..18:16
kenderhey Tak ;-)18:16
mgedminthe bit with flash card burnout rates is just the opposite of what's been happening with CD-R disks, which used to claim 50+ years of lief18:17
mgedminer, life18:17
X-Fadeframerate: Yeah that means that the desktop component crashed..18:17
dragornespecially if you mount it with noatime.  I cranked heavy write cycles to a CF for a year (CF hdd in a car PC writing gps/wireless logs) and didn't break it.18:17
frameratedmesg has a bunch of "file system panics"...18:17
gpddo we know if the 770 and n800 screen are the same dimensions? product specs do not state iirc18:18
mgedminframerate: my 770 reboots every now and then, out of the blue; usually maemo_af_desktop is blamed in that file18:18
frameratemgedmin: yeah I've noticed 800 rebooting a few times already too18:18
dwdI found my crash levels dropped hugely after I disabled swap.18:18
framerateis there a "format memory card" option hidden someplace?18:19
dwdframerate: Yes, on your desktop computer. :-)18:19
gpd[Nokia 770's screen width (91.65 mm), height (55.47 mm)]18:19
dragornjffs has builtin leveling, of course it's theoretically possible (but probably highly unlikely) that the hw leveler and the jffs2 leveler will conflict and overload some sectors :P18:19
frameratewhen I USB connect I get "internal card in use unable to connect". Don't think I have my reader here :(18:19
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Tak770 has a format card option18:21
mgedminframerate: the file manager's menu has that option18:21
gpd[nokia n800 screen measured using old ikea tape measure(!) - 92mm x 55.5mm -- seems the same]18:21
dwdframerate: File Manager, Memory Card->Format18:21
frameratedwd: mgedmin: found it, trying now18:22
framerateCan someone link me to the download for the new OS? I think it's on nokiaeurope. The one mentioned on tableteer on the handset18:23
mgedminframerate: perhaps18:23
||cwit's not at
* mgedmin does not have a N800 serial number and is not allowed in there18:24
frameratek I think this memory card is just fried18:24
X-Fademgedmin: hehe, me neither :)18:24
framerateformatting seeminly does nothing18:24
frameratehmm but a good card isn't recongized either... wtf18:25
dragorndid you reboot the unit?18:27
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framerate.. and now it's rebooting and crashing repeatedly again18:32
Jaffaframerate: disable the lifeguard reset with the flasher?18:33
framerateI've never used a flasher yet, just got this thing 2 days ago :/18:33
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framerateI'm on a windows PC @ work right now, but I can't find the software nokia mentioned18:33
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dwdframerate: The windows flasher stuff is in the topic.18:34
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Disconnectdwd: not for r&d/lifeguard. just for sw updates18:35
dwdOr rather, a URL for it. Although the topic is getting so long that base64 encoding the binary wouldn't make much difference.18:35
dwdDisconnect: Oh, yes, sorry, should have read back further.18:35
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Jaffadwd: :)18:41
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framerateinstalled new OS and it booted up fine first time, so I assume no hardware problems18:47
mgedminyou're pretty trusting ;)18:49
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frameratehopeful, mgedmin. The word is hopeful :)18:50
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dwddenial, mgedmin. The word is denial :)18:51
gpdwrt the topic - an info|supy bot might be valuable in here18:52
gpdi sense that as more people buy n800s there will be FAQS!18:52
gpd[i can set my supybot to join the channel if you like]... must go to work :(18:54
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framerateall seems well with the tablet at the moment EXCEPT when I enter (henceforth known as) "the bad card"18:55
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dwdframerate: That needs titlecase - The Bad Card. Did The Bad Card come with the unit?18:56
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frameratehas anyone been able to dialup wap.cingular on their Nokia 770/N800 yet for a DUN access?19:42
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Fatalheh, apple just announced they're launching a "internet communicator"19:43
simon__Fatal, the long rumoured phone?19:44
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TakI've heard about the internet - I can't wait to use it for communication!19:44
kenderFatal, the question is, OpenSourced?19:44
JaffaAh, it's all one big device.19:44
Fatalreading the live coverage19:44
kenderme too19:44
Takapple?  open-source?19:44
framerateit's the iphone, internet communicator AND widescreen ipod19:45
framerateall in one product19:45
MDKfucking shit19:45
MDKI won fiver from onne19:45
kendersimon__, is in live, no urls19:45
Fataland #macrumors :)19:46
Jaffa"years of development"19:46
Jaffa<hype>Is this the end of the N800?</hype>19:46
simon__well...  i should study anyways so i'll wait for the full story at the end ;)19:46
JaffaSize'll be critical.19:46
kenderI don't think so, N800 is open source, that for me, is so important19:47
koen'open source'19:47
Jaffakender: not to Joe Public, it may end up just as a hacker19:47
koenkender: it's partly opensource19:47
kenderyes, that's true19:47
kenderkoen, partialy?19:47
Fatal"nobody want's a stylus"19:47
danielsoo, multitouch19:47
* koen waits for a picture of the iphone19:48
mgedminthe N800 is half-open-source, which is better than closed, but not as good as fully open-source19:48
danielshaha, patented.  shock.19:48
kendermgedmin, agree19:49
Jaffadaniels: So Nokia has *no* patents on anything in the 770?19:49
kenderdaniels, yes19:49
koen"iphone runs OS X"19:49
danielswhat the fuck?19:50
koen. o O (osx on arm?)19:50
danielsJaffa: honestly, i don't know the answer to that question19:50
danielskoen: embedded ppc, i'd guess19:50
Jaffakoen: low power PPC?... snap19:50
JaffaQuestion is alternative formats like DivX on it19:52
kenderand, wifi opened, not like the zune?19:52
daniels'highest res screen ever shipped'19:53 apple :-P19:53
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xanI want a video of the thing already19:53
Jaffa3.5" at 15:9 (say) at 160dpi, what's the pixel count?19:53
danielshaha, 160dpi19:54
kenderlittle screen, isn't it?19:54
koen"3.5 inch screen - highest res screen ever shipped"19:54
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c0ffeemy laptop has 150dpi19:55
bergie"Steve disses PDA styluses. (Styli?) (Stylae?) Multi-touch technology "works like magic". (Laurie notes: "I have a draw full of styluses.") It ignores unintended touches, multi-finger gestures and has patents."19:55
koenthe accelerometer is a nice touch19:56
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JaffaAuto-rotation is neat.19:56
koenJaffa: rock&scroll19:56
keesjkoen, is it really there?19:57
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Takres is 480x28819:58
Takat given dimensions and res19:58
* lardman has difficulty reading upwards on Macrumours20:00
JaffaTak: ta20:00
Takand lunch20:00
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JaffaAnyone fancy working out the sizes form the images (assuming they're to scale) and the 11.6mm depth20:01
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daniels_that is friggin shiny.20:01
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JaffaAh, there's a very small photo of it in someone's hand20:01
danielsseriously, that is tight20:02
koen"slide to unlock" rocks as well20:02
Jaffadaniels: if nothing else, the bar has been raised on Nokia.20:02
MDKdaniels: tigert had the idea for accelerometor long time ago20:02
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danielsheh.  it looks like canola. ;)20:02
Takfor software, anyway20:02
MDKaccellerometer i mean20:03
Takthe hardware's pretty underwhelming20:03
JaffaMDK: ah, should've done it then ;-)20:03
danielsTak: no, multitouch is _pimp_.20:03
mgedminhow do you find the N800 on the compusa website?20:04
danielskender: really, really awesome20:04
danielsi saw a demo a while back of some music software using multitouch, it was incredible.20:04
Disconnectmgedmin: call them. not sure its on the site yet.20:04
danielsbasically, you had a flat touchscreen horizontally in front of you, and you just dragged and dropped elements to their natural place to form pipelines.20:04
danielsyou could rotate them to chance frequency/etc with multiple fingers (quite naturally), and also alter amplitude and whatnot similarly.  it was incredible.20:05
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framerate8 GB of storage?20:05
Fatalbah, no 3g, i skip20:05
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* pahartik wonders about if it does have Bluetooth 2.020:07
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MDKpahartik: it does bluetooth 2.020:08
danielspahartik: bluetooth 2 and wifi20:08
pahartikFatal: lack of WCDMA is annoying for sure20:08
danielspahartik: lack of 3G is more irritating for me20:08
danielswonder how well data entry works20:09
JaffaA multi-touch chorded keyboard could be good20:09
Fataloh well, i'm glad they didn't turn me into an apple fanboy this event either :)20:09
VRe__Maybe now they can but phone on the internettablets as the genie is out of the bottle - and operators can mind anymore =)20:11
danielsthe jazzmutant lemur was what i was talking about before, btw20:13
* pahartik does not want telephone (or GPS) inside Nokia 770 or N800, as long as there is mobile uplink within Bluetooth range20:13
roopeiphone has HWR.20:14
* Jaffa neither.20:14
JaffaOoh, pinch for resizing photos. Really using multitouch :)20:14
Fataloooh ooo.. and and!!! you can .. use a photo as a --- WALLPAPER ---20:15
suihkulokkihey, he's speaking to americans ;)20:16
suihkulokkihe needs to explain to people why they need more than just good reception and long battery life from their phones =)20:16
JaffaFatal: and if you pop it in the dock... it's a photo frame! (Until the screen dims)20:17
bergiethe multitouch stuff sounds really interesting20:17
* bergie wants to get his 770 display more dirty ;-)20:17
Fatalmultitouch is a nice input20:17
sxpert-workmultitouch for the 770 ?20:17
JaffaPresumably it needs h/w as well as s/w support20:17
danielswell, yeah20:18
bergiedoes the 770/N800 touchscreen recognize more than one finger/stylus on it at a time?20:18
bergiewell, that's it, then :-/20:18
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gummibaerchenwho ports maemo on the new Apple iPhone?20:19
danielsgummibaerchen: first you'd need to port linux ...20:19
kendergummibaerchen, hehehe20:19
gummibaerchenhehe, but the features on the keynote seem petty amazing, but what about the price?20:19
Jaffaand the availability20:20
danielsgummibaerchen: and, more importantly, can you get it without being tied to cingular?20:20
Fatalthey haven't announced the price yet20:20
kender8 Gn20:20
gummibaerchendaniels, at least for europe: YES, if its available here20:20
JaffaVisual voicemail, for example, is going to require network/operator support20:20
danielsgummibaerchen: right -- big if20:20
gummibaerchenhehe, and hopefully gtk will run on it, for all the "real" apps ;)20:21
gummibaerchenanything about the CPU?20:21
||cwaprently it already runs darwin, linux port can't be too hard20:21
danielsgummibaerchen: no tech specs yet.  presumably it's embedded ppc though (e.g. freescale), unless they've ported os x to arm or such.20:21
Piodid they mention any intention to allow and support third party development?20:21
Pioi mean, it *is* apple we are talking about20:21
daniels||cw: well, you've got mystic shit like the bootloader when dealing with embedded20:21
JaffaPort Hildon to Darwin would be easiest20:21
JaffaPio: not yet20:21
gummibaerchendaniels, don't think its ppc, after they switched to intel20:22
danielsgummibaerchen: i386 is not an embedded platform20:22
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gummibaercheni didn't say it's an intel inside, daniels20:22
danielsgummibaerchen: and they wouldn't have just ditched the ppc support from darwin/os x.  remember that ppc has a long embedded lineage, including from people other than ibm.20:23
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danielsgummibaerchen: you think they ported to arm? mips?20:23
arjcan one use the n770 GPS navigator from nokia with the n800?20:23
||cwarm would make a lot of sence20:23
gummibaerchendaniels, not sure, maybe it has a fuel cell and an intel core 2 duo^^20:24
myreni'm hpoing it has a coldfire processor personally.  ;)20:24
gummibaerchenbut, yeah, OS X on ppc would be the easiest for them20:24
suihkulokki..and would give them insane application catalog from day 020:25
daniels'can load multiple pages - to move on page shrinks somewhat and slides off to side of page similar in effect to Expose'20:25
arjand do anyone have a picture of the n770 navigation kit? I would like to know what the car holder looks like20:25
danielssounds like the webcore stuff on s60, which is sweet20:25
danielsarj: it doesn't fit the n80020:25
arjok but the GPS device should work ok I guess?20:25
roopeA bit depressing, really.20:26
danielsarj: indeed, it does20:26
danielshm, either inbuilt gps, or location hints from the provider20:27
obscuresay it guys - you're aroused20:28
MDKlet's hold hands together and dance on symbian grave ;)20:28
JaffaIf it's too locked down for me to deploy my own code, though, I'm not interested.20:28
* Jaffa homes20:29
danielsnothing he's showed is at all new (multitouch, location hinting, touchscreen phones, finger interaction, media on phones), but the integration is cute20:29
||cwmultitouch is new on a portable device20:29
MDKaccelerator is new20:29
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* MDK wonders about the price20:30
||cwMDK: not realy, my old Kodak phone had that, it would rotate the photo for you if you had the camera sideways20:30
obscuredaniels: you're just in denial :P good thing i didnt order an n80020:30
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MDK||cw: didn't know that. Anways, there was/is NOTHING new in ipod when it debuted20:31
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MDKthey take proven concepts and perfect them20:31
danielsobscure: don't get me wrong, it looks like a very nice device (for a closed phone).  the integration is awesome.  but there's no original innovation.20:31
danielsobscure: can you point to one element of this and say with a straight face that no-one has done that before?20:32
Fatal(except multitouch)20:32
obscuredaniels: i was just being a pest :D20:32
Fatal((which isn't that new, but first use))20:32
danielsFatal: no, it's not the first use20:32
|tbb| anyone got the navkit for the n770 allready20:33
MDKdaniels: what would be than, in your eyes, a truly innovative device of 2007?20:34
Fataldaniels: oh, i suck :) where was it before?20:34
danielsFatal: jazzmutant lemur20:34
gummibaerchenyeah apple + google i can see that coming..#20:34
Fataldid you just throw two random words at me? :)20:34
danielsFatal: giyf20:35
Fatal'google it you f**k' ? :) too many new acronyms20:35
suihkulokkiMDK: except for service integration (and actual consumer availability:P) apple phone is very similar to myorigo smartphone from 200320:35
danielsFatal: google is your friend20:35
danielsMDK: tbh, i don't know.20:35
MDKIMHO, there are hundreds of totally innovative concepts around20:37
MDKlaying, just waiting to be picked20:37
MDKsometimes only availible to the geeks20:37
|tbb|damn the license key doesnt allowed to download support tools on there site20:37
obscurebeing innovative isn't that important anymore. making innovations available to end users is what's important20:38
MDKyou just need to integrate/pack them nicely for the end user20:38
MDKand that's the hard part20:38
danielsMDK: exactly20:38
roopeThat looks depressingly good.20:38
roopeit doesn't really matter to be first (like myorigo) or like creative with mp3 players. ipod has "nothing really new" but it's still much better.20:39
MDKdaniels: ie, we have built-in camera in N800. We could have easily created an app/whatever to record a flick and post it to you tube20:40
roopemyorigo has this motion control which is a really niec idea.20:40
MDKit would make n800 more attractive to a lot of users (maybe not the ones on this channel)20:40
danielsMDK: yeah, a 'social networking' device (i.e. seamless integration with, flickr, whatever) would certainly be interesting, and arguably a better application of pervasive connectivity than wikipedia20:41
obscureMDK: yep its those kind of things that people get wet for20:41
obscurenormal people :)20:41
koendaniels: that would rock indeed20:41
koendaniels: but with some local cache, as tigert stated before20:41
danielskoen: nod20:42
danielsconstant connectivity + full location information, is a powerful tool, and arguably an innovation in itself20:42
danielsit's how you use it that determines how many people are going to spring for it20:42
daniels(of course, it helps if you can make it friggin shiny)20:42
framerateinteresting question for someone like me though... Do I keep my ipod, blackberry and N800?20:42
framerateor sell them all for iPhone...20:42
TakI can't imagine iphone replacing my 77020:43
MDKframerate: let's see the price20:43
TakI thought they pegged the price at $29920:43
framerateI *am* up for a new phone with my cinuglar contract20:43
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gummibaerchenframerate, lucky man20:44
frameratejust spent 400 on the N800 though, and have a blackberry pearl20:44
framerateso it's a dilemma20:44
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* koen dislikes large phones20:44
gummibaerchenhe said nothin about people outside the US20:44
framerateblackberry pearl is tiny, that's why I like it20:44
koen6210 + n770 = great20:44
framerateI can't get my N800 to dial out on my blackberry using WAP, and theres no VPN on the N80020:45
frameratePlus all the crashes I was getting earlier, I'm rather frustrated with it over all20:45
MDKshares +5% since he started speaking20:45
MDKframerate: there is VPN20:45
danielsoh, also with multitouch -- there's no real hardware for it, he's just using multiple mice, but the mpx stuff in already allows you to do all that stuff (resizing with two cursors, etc), on the software side20:45
MDKframerate: for cisco that is20:45
roopeapple has patents on the multitouch ui:s now.20:45
framerateIf you're referring to openVPN I installed it, but the documentation isn't clear to someone who has never really done linux VPN work20:46
roopewhich is a bad thing (tm).20:46
* pahartik would like to have new telephone just like Nokia 6310i, but updated to Bluetooth 2.0 and WCDMA... no need to add anything else20:46
koen"5 hours of battery life"20:46
danielsroope: hopefully they get fucked on prior art20:46
MDKroope: yeah, was looking at it today20:46
danielsi'd be thrilled if peter's work on mpx counted as prior art. :)20:46
daniels10:44 aminnovating like crazy20:46
danielsover 200 patents in it20:46
MDKframerate: yeah, it's darn hard to use20:46
framerateIf nokia N800 had a one touch VPN connection I'd be pretty sold, honestly20:47
kenderdaniels, hehe20:47
frameratebut I spend 8-12 hours a day in my office, no wifi except the VPN20:47
Takvpn is too complicated for one touch20:47
dushkodaniels: I saw a multitouch interface from some University on Youtube.20:47
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gummibaerchennearly the price ;)20:47
gummibaerchenbut the stupid site stop reloading :(20:47
gummibaerchen10:47 am8GB model - $59920:47
gummibaerchen10:47 am4GB model - $49920:47
daniels8gb $60020:47
framerateproblem solved20:48
* framerate sighs of relief20:48
danielsheh, not fcc approved.  they don't know how to do zero-day releases.20:48
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danielsnokia totally has them beat there, we did a minus-two-day release. ;)20:48
roopethey might not even get fucked. their patent was filed quite early. at least all the research/videos i've seen of multitouch have come after that date.20:48
danielsasia in 2008? lame.20:48
gummibaerchenthey should stop the future announcements, that's not apple style20:48
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danielsroope: how early?20:48
danielsroope: i think peter's work in particular dates back to 200820:48
suihkulokkiback to future?20:49
roope... is ...20:49
roopeI had a "The goggles they do nothing!" moment when i tried to read that year.20:49
gummibaerchencal4 for europe, so that's at the start of winter.. great, then i get a new phone from my contract ;)20:49
danielsnope, looks like peter only got stuff working in april 2006. :\20:50
roopeAt least 2004, or before.20:50
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danielsroope: damn.20:51
MDK499$ and 599$ that's still cheaper than nseries20:51
gummibaerchenbut replacing the iPod was the best they could do20:51
gummibaerchenso they will get a big market share20:51
||cwhaha "we thought it'd be better to introduce this today rather than let the FCC introduce this. "20:51
roopeThat will sell like hotcakes. If that's the expression.20:51
gummibaerchenMDK, maybe the "big" ones, but you get a N73 for 400€20:52
konttoriVPN setup should consist on only setting the IP / name, port (if necessary) and protocol. After it's setup, it should be one click.20:52
gummibaerchenand that's a very nice phone ;) (at least the Stick is ten times better than on my SE K800)20:52
danielsMDK: the n800's part of the nseries, y'know ;)20:52
konttoriOr it should be possible to force VPN to be always setup automatically on every connection.20:52
suihkulokki$499 *with* 2y contract20:52
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MDKdaniels: true, I'd say n800 is reasonably priced20:53
||cwwith 4Gig of storage20:53
Taktied to cingular, too20:53
gummibaerchensuihkulokki, what? that's VERY expensive20:53
MDKdaniels: though my n80, being 600e, is far too much20:53
MDKdaniels: I'd have never paid so much for this phone myself20:53
danielsMDK: i'm frightened to think of how much my n90 would've cost20:53
danielsMDK: yeah, you don't say ...20:53
||cwand it's a smartphone, claims to be OSX so adding apps should be not hard20:53
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xan"We're announcing it today because we have to go get FCC approval... we thought it'd be better to introduce this today rather than let the FCC introduce this."20:53
Lateraluswhat method do you guys use to determine 770 vs 800?20:53
xanI think that goes for us? :)20:53
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wasabiHowdy. Anybody have any docs about the .install files?20:54
MDKxan: hah20:54
koenLateralus: easy: the 770 is on my desk, so n800 :)20:54
* tko hates missing all the fun stuff during the day20:54
danielsxan: 'we thought it'd be better to introduce this today than let CompUSA introduce this.'20:54
danielstko: you don't have to, y'know ...20:54
Lateralusah, the undocumented is_770_on_desk()20:54
kenderdaniels, hehe20:55
danielsthis thing is going to sell billions20:55
gummibaerchenok but the high price and the very fact that you are tied to some provider aren't very good20:55
danielsgummibaerchen: not that high when compared to things like the n-series20:55
gummibaerchenso there must be a successor for the iPod20:55
tkodaniels, I'm trying to make a point to an organization pretending to be involved in open source20:55
danielsi think the rokr or whatever it's called is also really expensive20:55
danielstko: makes sense ;)20:56
gummibaerchendaniels, but normally (at least in germany) no provider list that expensive phones20:56
wasabiSweet. I remember talking to one of ya'll about this...20:56
gummibaerchen(except nokias communicator and BB)20:56
wasabiBasically teh same idea.20:56
||cwgummibaerchen: the iPhone dwarfs both of those in features20:57
roopeThat will sell at that price like crazy.20:57
danielsgummibaerchen: depends.  if they sell it outright for anything like that ...20:57
gummibaerchen||cw, yeah, and the HDD is amazing20:57
danielsgummibaerchen: (my sony-ericsson k700i was $au700 outright, iirc.)20:57
gummibaerchenthat is what I am missing for the N80020:57
||cwtake your most expensive touchscreen smartphone and add the code of 4Gig flash storage20:57
||cwthen you have thing to compair20:57
Tak[48]G HD is amazing?20:57
|tbb|anyone got the navkit for the 770 allready (anyone but florian)20:58
Takso slap a couple of 2G SDs into your n800 and call it good20:58
gummibaerchenTak, better than just slots :D but 30GB like a "real" iPod would rock20:58
danielstko: speaking of open source, you still have code with the advertising clause?20:58
||cwgummibaerchen: you can have 4G on the n800, for another, what, $100?  and it's still not a phone20:58
danielstko: i was flipping through the manual and noticed that.  as well as the nvidia acknowledgement, since i forgot to take it out of xorg-server's copyright file.  oops.20:58
Takgummibaerchen: I'd rather have slots, because then I can swap out HDs at my leisure20:58
gummibaerchenTak, depends, one slot is enough imho, if you have builtin hdd20:59
mgedmindepends on the size of the builtin hdd, I guess21:00
mgedminI never remove my rs-mmc card because without the data on it my 770 would be useless to me21:01
mgedminwell, and also because it contains the swap file ;)21:01
TakI swap mine in and out21:01
TakI have one full of music, one full of movies21:01
tkodaniels, yeah, some branch of pppd has it. I've lost count how many different distros / bsd's I've relicensed the code to without the advertising clause :)21:01
tkodaniels, so it was you!121:02
MDKtko: maybe we ask him we he broke the wrapping? ;)21:02
tkonice solution to copyright licensing issues. just remove the copyright notices :)21:02
tkonot if, when or why?21:03
MDKdaniels: did you breake wrapping in gtk? We're trying to find a guilty for a few months already21:03
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xanI hear this wrapping thing works ok on the iPhone, we could order a few just to see how you do it properly21:04
gummibaerchenhmm, so what will be new iPod be like, must be 40GB at least21:04
MDKxan: haha21:04
Takmaybe nokia can release a "phonekit" addon (ala navkit) for n80021:05
MDKbtw, this apple tv is sweet too, and not that expensive21:05
* koen still needs to buy a car charger for the n77021:05
danielsMDK: how would i do that?21:05
koenand 621021:05
danielstko: i think the nvidia thing was me21:06
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Takwhat's the pixel density on the n785±15 ?21:08
danielsheh, nice try, but the 770 isn't n21:09
danielsand yeah, about 22021:09
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tko225, 226 IIRC21:09
Takbut 160 is "the highest ever shipped in a portable device!"21:09
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danielssourcing a multi-touch capable 220dpi screen could be ... interesting21:09
danielsTak: yeah, that's complete bullshit21:09
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gummibaerchenthanks for joining us - the keynote is now over21:11
gummibaerchenhmm ok, that was all21:11
mgedminTak: is that a quote from today's macworld?21:12
danielsmgedmin: no, jobs said it in his keynote21:12
danielser, yeah, thought you meant the magazine, sorry.  been at work too long.21:12
Takactually it looks like jobs actually said, "highest resolution screen we've ever shipped, 160ppi."21:13 has the quote I pasted21:13
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danielsah, looks like macrumorslive mistranscribed21:16
danielssurprising that it doesn't have im though, for a 'breakthrough internet device'21:16
danielsim + locality information is where it's at21:16
danielssomething could pop up saying 'hey, tigert's in ikea too, you should go bug him about the logo' ;)21:17
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Aleksandyrgood morning #maemo-world.21:17
keesjipod screen resolution 320x480 ha ha ha21:19
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danielskeesj: haha, ouch21:19
danielsstill, it looks _lush_ within that21:19
VRe__well, if nextgen tablet (830? :) will have wimax, it almost towards phone space.. add accelometers, gps/galileo and good buttons for gaming and it would be excelent21:19
danielsthanks to the 160dpi thing21:19
keesjbut the rest sounds good
roopeIt's not really about the HW, but about the SW.21:20
VRe__I think the resolution is enough for most of the use21:20
Aleksandyrroope: agreed.21:20
roopeThe general consumer couldn't care less about wimax and all that shit.21:20
danielsVRe__: not for browsing21:20
VRe__now I watch videos which are 400x240 or so and doubled21:20
VRe__daniels: Yeah, surfing and reading21:20
MDKroope: true21:21
Aleksandyrdaniels: with google and yahoo providing data to it? I don't know, could be compelling21:21
Aleksandyranyone have a good reference on how to change file associations in Maemo?21:21
VRe__roope: Exept when they start to use wimax for everything :)21:21
dwdAleksandyr: It'll use the specs, I think.21:21
dwdAleksandyr: And I *think* there was something in one of the tutorials about it.21:22
MDKiTunes behind all this is a kinda big thing21:22
Aleksandyrdwd: yyyyyyes, but I was hoping for a specific example I could modify.21:22
Aleksandyrdwd: I'll poke around, ty21:22
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danielsshit, 9:30, i've been at work until after everything's shut except maccas, again21:26
danielsi hate this country sometimes21:26
myren160 dpi at 3.5 inches, 16:9, is 488x27421:29
myreni am unimpressed21:29
danielsmyren: it's 320x48021:29
VRe__normal consumer doens't care what is the resolution as long it looks good..21:29
myrendaniels: thats not at all widescreen21:30
myrentalk about non-square pixels21:30
myrenVRe__: does _anyone_ in this room give a rats ass about normal consumers21:30
VRe__Lets see what is released by other vendors by the time iphone really ships21:30
myrenwe are pretty far divergent from most technical consumers, much less a normal pedestrial consumer21:31
danielswell, presumably the usability person/interaction designer/please correct your job title, does. :)21:31
myreni am a interaction designer21:31
myrenand i revolt at modern interface21:31
myrenapplications are the devil21:31
danielsah, you and roope would have a right old time. :)21:31
VRe__myren: Well, atleast when I do software I _try_ to think the normal consumer21:31
TakI got 480x28821:31
AleksandyrI'm a grad student with a sub-specialty in HCI, and the 770 makes me twitch ;)21:32
myrenyeah, presuming square pixels Tak21:32
myrenAleksandyr: i'm planning my own UI.21:32
Aleksandyrmyren: it's not just the UI, to be fair, it's most of the experience21:32
MDKdaniels: are you aware of any problems with host xorg/xephyr version causing BadRequest 138 when starting meamo desktop?21:33
danielsMDK: what exactly is 138?21:34
MDKtko: remember what was it? Bad Window?21:34
MDKI'm talking bullshit21:34
tkoMDK, couldn't figure out which extension21:34
myrenuser interaction has become defined by a little bit of WM chrome and application button/toolbar layouts.21:34
danielsright, if the extension number is >= 64, it's dynamic21:34
myrenpretty bullshit21:34
roopethe iphone site now has working videos.21:35
roopeAll those transitions and animations... *sigh*21:35
tkodaniels, 64 ? you mean >= 127 means it's extension?21:35
danielser, probably, yeah21:35
danielstko: xdpyinfo -queryExtensions21:35
tkodaniels, we tried xdpyinfo -ext all21:35
MDKdaniels: we've got a set of gtk packages that cause my sbox to fault once installed21:35
tkoqueryExtensions looks much better21:36
MDKbut same packages work elsewhere21:36
myren480x/win 621:36
myren480x320?  wtf?21:36
roopeI care about the normal consumers. :)21:36
ntrsHow can I get Java Runtime on my N800?21:36
MDKdaniels: interestingly, it fails on two of my machines21:36
danielsMDK: nice21:36
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MDKdaniels: which makes me think, it has SOMETHING to do with the distribution packages I'm running21:36
Aleksandyrntrs: define java runtime?21:36
MDKthe packages work on target BTW21:37
Aleksandyrntrs: my JamVM/Classpath/Jikes packages will work, but you can't do much with them.21:37
ntrssomething to run Java applets in a browser21:37
Aleksandyrntrs: that's currently impossible21:37
danielsMDK: well, let me know which extension it is, and i'll try to get it sorted21:37
ntrsah, I see21:37
feruloMDK: didn't you solve your problem with the xserver?21:37
ntrsI saw a post somewhere that your JamVM worked for applets in minimo21:37
Aleksandyrntrs: I don't believe anyone's gotten user-defined plugins to work in Opera21:37
Aleksandyrntrs: hah! news to me, but that would be awesome.21:37
ntrsAleksandyr, what about minimo?21:37
MDKferulo: nope. The packages break my sbox at home too21:38
myrenis the mono port up to day?21:38
Aleksandyr(see previous statement.)21:38
myren*up to date?21:38
feruloMDK: that's because your crappy distro...21:38
feruloman, you're using the same distro as eugenia21:38
ntrsAleksandyr, look at this:
MDKdaniels: XFIXES21:38
ntrsI tried the same thing on n800 and it does not show the applets in minimo21:38
konttoriI must say that the calling interface looks quite terrific on iphone21:38
tkoMDK, what was the minor number?21:39
MDKferulo: dude, I have to. She won't let me switch.21:39
danielsMDK: oh god21:39
roopekonttori: yeah.21:39
MDKtko: minor code 221:39
myreneugenia?  of former osnews glory & fame21:39
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konttoriIt looks like it's been thought through and through21:39
danielsMDK: _two_?21:39
myrenwhat distro is this you speak of?21:39
MDKdaniels: (Details: serial 321 error_code 1 request_code 138 minor_code 2)21:40
MDKmyren: archlinux21:40
danielsMDK: you are running with --sync, right?21:40
MDKdaniels: nope21:40
danielsMDK: right ... do that21:40
myrenarchlinux?  wtf?21:40
MDKdaniels: is there a script param to do that?21:40
Aleksandyrntrs: ...interesting.21:40
roopetext input from a touch screen is worse than from buttons, but apart from that steve is pretty much right.21:41
Aleksandyrntrs: "not well packed" ouch! It hurts abit ;)21:41
konttoriI also like the image viewers way of moving from one photo to another. It's exactly the way that I'd like maemos image viewer to work. FBReader should also support that kind of page turning21:41
Milhousei fear for the N800 after the "iPhone" announcement!21:41
ntrsAleksandyr, it is well packed. I did not have any dependency issues when installing on n80021:41
MDKhmm, I see only --valgrind and --gdb21:41
Takeh, they're products for different markets21:41
Milhousefair bit of overlap, no?21:42
danielsMDK: script param?21:42
konttoriThey are still competing on different markets, although the gap is not that big.21:42
Aleksandyrntrs: was quoting that article ;)21:42
danielsMDK: oh, to the af scripts?  no idea, i try to avoid those ...21:42
konttoriOne thing where that thing totally owns maemo, is mail ;)21:42
ntrsAleksandyr, I know. Just wanted to make you feel better.21:42
konttoriWell, that's not much said. I'm pretty sure commondore 64 has better email clients21:42
Milhousescreen on the iphone (480x320) doesn't compare to the N800s but most people won't appreciate that and still buy the iPhone21:42
Takwell - iphone is 4g ipod + phone + crappy browser, tied to cingular21:43
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roopethe browser doesn't look crappy.21:43
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Aleksandyrntrs: obliged :D I'll try it out and see what happens on my 770. Never imagined it would work...21:43
Milhouseprobably competes more with symbian music phones such as SonyEricssons W950i (4GB phone)21:43
ntrsAleksandyr, I want it for N80021:43
roopeit's probably this webkit/safari.21:43
Aleksandyrntrs: step one is figuring out how it works at all :D I had no idea minimo would work with it.21:44
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ntrsAleksandyr, hehe :) OK21:44
Milhousenow that Apple have introduced the iPhone running OS X for internet tablets, do you think they are going to cut support for their existing desktop products? I bought one last week and I'll be really pissed if they do!21:44
konttoriDo they have pics / video on how the internet browser actually works. doesn't look usable21:45
roopeIt's a really great move from apple. Thinking about products converging. If it's really macosx.21:45
konttoriI love it.21:45
konttoriI still like my phone to be smaller than that21:45
VRe__roope: I don't like the vertical surfing, I prefer horizontal. But I really wonder how well the smaller thumbkeyboard works on the device21:46
roopewell, that supports landspace/vertical rotation.21:46
Takit "won't let you make mistakes" !21:46
konttorithanks roope.21:46
Milhousei suppose in reality this iphone competes with WinCE and Symbian rather than N80021:46
roopeIt depends kind of. If you put predictive input on top of the keyboard, the size is about enough.21:47
pokute_I wouldn't be surprised if iPhone is even less Mac os X than Nokia IT OS 2006 is a linux+gnome.21:47
MilhouseLooks very nice, tempting come the next phone upgrade (assuming they launch it gloablly - it's quad band)21:47
VRe__Well, more or less they are on the same field. I don't think person who buys iPhone is going to get n80021:47
VRe__or vice versa21:47
* gpd grumbles about new iPhone21:47
roopeThose videos are probably simulations / fakes, but.21:47
danielsoh, ffs.  don't tell me my password's expired again.21:47
TakI don't think I could swallow $[56]00 + 2-year cingular contract21:47
pokute_The price is pretty steep though.21:48
glass_it's expensive21:48
konttoriBy the way, will the device sport that kind of 'light circle arrow'? I like the idea of that. Could someone implement that to maemo?21:48
tkoMDK, btw, we should bring up the application theming extension on #gtk+ or the list21:48
roopewell, it's used in the video to indicate finger position.21:48
glass_especially when you'd expect a full smartphone platform device at that pricerange21:48
pokute_I wonder how big monthly fees the contract will have and the call costs - that'll define the real price.21:48
roopeThe finger would cover the circle so you wouldn't see it anyway. ;)21:48
MilhouseVRe: i suspect you are correct21:48
konttoriRoope: Yeah. Although it would be nice for maemo to support feather touch to indicate 'mouse' and full touch to click.21:49
konttoriroope: true21:49
pokute_tko: Application theming? Tell me! :-D21:49
Milhouseis $500/600 the unsubsidised price?21:49
VRe__konttori: Nice idea21:49
glass_milh: afaik it's the price with 2y contract21:49
roopeWell. There is stylus/finger detection already.21:49
VRe__like make the circle darker when the pressure is greater21:49
Milhousethats pretty steep21:49
glass_milh: which yes, means assload costs for unsub21:50
Milhousewouldn't fly over here in the UK except amongst total macheads21:50
danielsroope: actually, it's full pressure.  you can differentiate between light and heavy presses.21:50
c0ffeescratchbox appears to work after a day of hacking21:50
tkopokute_, ability for applications / someone else ship a application-specific gtkrc to put in /usr/share/themes/foobar/gtk-2.0/ and it would work as one would expect21:50
VRe__I think the iphone is going to be really expensive without operator subdiaries21:50
roopedaniels: Yes. But it's really hard to press so hard with the stylus to go over the threshold.21:51
roopeYou'll break your screen before it. :)21:51
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pokute_tko: That sounds like a bad idea. Shouldn't they just load an overwriting rc file when starting?21:51
danielsroope: sure, but just saying that detecting is an app issue; you can already pick light vs heavy presses in the app.21:51
gpdis EDGE better / faster than EVDO ?21:51
konttoriedge is like 12821:51
roopedaniels: Yes.21:51
danielsalthough it is asymptotic at about pressure 115; 110 is a hard press, and 115 is drilling a hole through your screen21:51
daniels(i spent about a day sitting there working out the pressure values)21:52
tkopokute_, umm, that's exactly the point21:52
roopeThey're very good, thanks for those. :)21:52
Takc0ffee: cool - publish a howto?21:52
MilhouseI wonder what the mail client is like on the iPhone - maybe Nokia can get one and learn how it should be done?21:52
Guardianiphone, competition21:53
danielsMilhouse: in july?21:53
c0ffeeTak, 'ignore all errors'21:53
danielsroope: heh, no worries21:53
pokute_tko: I mean with code. like gtk_something_load_rc ("/usr/share/application_data/xbill.rc") ;21:53
danielsroope: thank my pre-b1's touchscreen ;)21:53
Takthat's how I live my life :-P21:53
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Milhousedaniels: any time would do - the current client is crud21:53
danielsroope: i don't think the poor thing ever recovered21:53
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Knowledge_so about this iphone....that or the 800?21:54
||cwiphone's 6 months away and already shaking up the cell phone world21:54
danielswonder if anyone went around shorting stocks21:54
tkopokute_, you can do that already21:54
roopeSymbian/n-series should be the most worried.21:54
tkopokute_, but that can't play along with overall theming21:55
roopenot in the short term: jobs said that they want 1% market share at first.21:55
gpdI still think having a phone that big is going to be really annoying -- the internet tablet|scree and phone is the way to go.21:55
glass_1% would be pretty big21:55
roope10 million devices, yeah.21:55
Milhousemy major use case is internet browsing so the 800x480 screen on the N800 (compared to 480 x 320 on iPhone) makes it a no brainer: N80021:55
Takso can nokia develop a phone module for the n800 in 6 months?21:55
pokute_tko: Gtk+ will have a hard time accepting anything if it may break existing usage.21:55
glass_can't see it happening with the current device at such ridiculous price(guessing what it would cost without 2y contract)21:55
MDKpokute_: it doesn't break existing usage21:55
Knowledge_The way I figure, is you're already carrying a 770 or 800...AND a phone...why not carry just one thing21:55
Milhouseat those prices Jobs will be lucky to get 0.1 market share21:56
konttoriDoes N800 support multitouch?21:56
danielskonttori: no21:56
glass_tak: why would they need? they got phones coming out, phones with browsers and thats what iphone is21:56
VRe__For many phonemakers iPhone is welcome sight.. now they can start to do many things which they have feared because of the operators21:56
c0ffeeis there somewhere information about the video chat protocol used by gchat?21:56
Knowledge_what's multi touch?21:56
||cwis it 480x320?  looks like more21:56
MDKpokute_: besides, gnome/gtk hasn't been able to solve the theming issue for years21:56
Milhousedaniles: could it support multi-touch?21:56
danielsKnowledge_: recognising multiple fingers on the touchscreen, instead of one21:56
danielsMilhouse: no21:56
tkopokute_, you don't need to educate me about what's acceptable for gtk :)21:56
Knowledge_nooo shit21:56
glass_cw: pr pics can be deceiving21:56
Milhouse480x320 according to engadget21:56
tkoI'm painfully aware of it21:56
Milhousedaniels: shame!21:56
Knowledge_wow...that's pretty cool, but what's the point of that?21:56
glass_apples site has the reso too21:56
pokute_tko: Taking into account all the stuff you've tried to get accepted, I think you indeed may need educating. Tho I'm not to one to do it. :-D21:57
ferulo  <-- multitouch screen21:57
gpdKnowledge_: for me -- if i want JUST my phone - eg. on a hike -- i don't want to have to bring the rest21:57
tkoMDK, I think we want to introduce gtk-fallback-theme-name (similar to gtk-fallback-icon-theme) GtkSetting21:57
Knowledge_Ok, here's the deal, I have a 770, I could do the root to mem card mod, take the mem card out and tell compusa it's not booting and get another one under warranty....sell it on ebay, or get store credit and get an 800...which should I do?21:58
pokute_MDK: If you can do it without breaking anything, good.21:58
Knowledge_gpd: good call21:58
MDKtko: yes. That sounds good21:58
c0ffeewhen i search for 'gchat video' the first hit is about girl sluts :)21:58
pokute_But still, gtk+ themeing sucks. :-) Sucks big time. :-)21:58
tkopokute_, sufficient to say I only inherited most of the hacks21:58
pokute_tko: :-D21:58
Milhousethe iPhone looks a bit like the FIC device21:58
konttoriI wonder if the example videos are 'target renderings' or actual performance. Especially switching between apps seems lightning fast on that device.21:59
konttoriHas there been actual performance videos at all?21:59
glass_or myorigo21:59
Knowledge_wowwww....that multi touch is nuts!21:59
roopeTarget renderings most likely.21:59
glass_konttori: afaik no21:59
pokute_iphone looks just like what a 7710 -derivate would look today. :-D21:59
pokute_konttori: Yeah, I won't believe anything about the speed or fancy 3d-effects before they show me the shakycam.22:00
konttoriSo, all this stuff should be taken with a few grains of salt. Looks nice, Ui is brilliant (and should be learned from for Maemo), but actual use may not be that brilliant (won't be nad either)22:00
glass_with a LOT of salt22:01
konttoriBut still, it's withing plausible limit's. I've made quite similiar stuff on 770 on python, so it's not that far off.22:01
MilhouseLooking at the Google video, I wonder how effective mutli-touch will prove to be on a 3.5" screen?22:02
Knowledge_or should I keep the 770?22:02
VRe__konttori: The google maps downloaded really fast :)22:02
roopeIf only our UI toolkit would support stuff like that *coughcough*22:02
Milhousebear in mind the demo is on like a 21"+ screen22:02
glass_milhouse: depends hos small fingers you have22:02
danielsroope: well, x supports that, so it's down to gtk. :) tommi and xan will have it ready for you by thursday.22:02
glass_milhouse: if you have a hand as small as the guy on then why not22:02
Milhouseholding the device in your left hand, shakily using two fingers on the screen - might be tricky!22:02
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MilhouseI'm not Jeremy Beadle!22:03
konttoriSo, does the hardware on 770/N800 support multiple touch points?22:03
inzhas anoyone tried using 770 as a bt keyboard for N800 with xkbd-bthid?22:03
danielskonttori: _no_22:03
roopekonttori: as daniels said, no.22:03
roopeApple has also patented those interactions anyway.22:04
konttoriOk. Most of them can be simulated by using the select button.22:04
roopeYeah, it's kind of a mode switch, essentially.22:04
konttoriPut finger to a location. Press select and keep it pressed. Move finger to right -> scale22:04
tkodaniels, oh, gtk is already done. we just need fancy graphics and little support from applications22:05
konttoriAllows pretty much every two finger effect and no patent issues ;) Happy campers!22:05
*** mgedmin changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 770 updates will continue but Bora (OS2007) is not backported | No, the N800 does *not* support"22:06
Milhousewhat do you mean by "interactions"?22:06
pokute_Hmm. According to specs, the iPhone is 3 cm "shorter", 1 cm "narrower" and 9mm "thinner"22:06
*** mgedmin changes topic to "Maemo is the application development platform for the Nokia Internet Tablets | Good questions deserve better answers | | irc logs at | Developer Device Program - Don't call us, we'll call you | New image: (Win users: | 770 updates will continue but Bora (OS2007) is not backported | No, the N800 does *not* support multi touch"22:06
Milhouseor patented the mutli-touch screen?22:06
danielsmgedmin: thanks22:07
konttoriroope means that all the thing you can do by using two fingers as opposed to one finger. They have specified many such effects (scaling, rotating, scrolling)...22:07
tkohmm, the iphone dial buttons don't look like view buttons *cough*22:07
* gpd remains slightly rattled22:07
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roopeOf course you can go around it, but since the very point is the multi-touch thingy. Of course actions can be provided by other means.22:08
vandenoeverdid someone try running strigi in maemo ?22:08
Milhouseso who is this Jefferson Y Han guy who seems to have been one of the main developers in New York Universits Media Research Lab? Seems this was mostly developed outside of Apple22:08
pokute_tko: Hehe. View buttons. :-D22:08
gpddid you see that in one of the videos they do a goole search and an 'ipod linux' page is in the results...22:08
konttoriI love slashdot frontpage on iphone: "Seriously, go check this out. They're going to print money with this thing."22:09
glass_slashdot editors are perhaps most stupid people on the planet22:09
Milhouseafter engadget?22:09
konttoriBut the comment is spot on22:09
MilhouseI guess NY Uni must have flogged it all to Apple22:10
danielsi'm surprised engadget haven't whinged about the lack of a hardware keyboard yet.22:10
MilhouseCertainly doesn't appear to be an Apple "invention"22:10
glass_first they'll need to get to june and the device to fcc and out.. and to others than just cingular and to worldwide and sell it at price that makes profit for them22:10
MilhouseDump your Synaptic shares :)22:11
danielssynaptics still have a formidable patent portfolio22:11
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Knowledge_how many of you guys have the 800"?22:11
MilhouseDon't they have a new screen in design?22:11
Milhousesynaptic sensitive lcd screen22:12
tkohmm, work is funny.. I think I left for work this morning with two things two do. I ended up doing three four different things instead :-]22:12
tkoMDK, poke me about sound APIs tomorrow in case I forget again :)22:12
vandenoeverdid anyone try running on maemo ?22:13
gpdKnowledge_: I got one on Sunday22:13
MDKtko: do you want to kick the multimedia guys?22:13
kaatishow much are the subsidies on that iPhone $499 quoted price? because it better be rather good to sell well with 700e price tag22:13
MilhouseNot as good a demo, but sounds as though it could be similar to the iPhone functionality22:13
Knowledge_gpd: is it worth it?22:13
tkoMDK, yep22:13
Aleksandyrkaatis: $499 is probably with a $200 subsidy, knowing Cingular22:13
Knowledge_gpd: I wonder if it's worth going through all the trouble that I listed above.22:13
gpdKnowledge_: compared to what?  - certainly enjoyed it so far - didn't have a 77022:13
Knowledge_I see...22:14
konttoriIt's with 2 year contract.22:14
gpdKnowledge_: summary of above -- i am performing Mass Spectrometry and cant really scroll back atm ;)22:14
konttoriSo, 200$ sounds about right22:14
Knowledge_Ok, here's the deal, I have a 770, I could do the root to mem card mod, take the mem card out and tell compusa it's not booting and get another one under warranty....sell it on ebay, or get store credit and get an 800...which should I do?22:14
Knowledge_gpd: ^22:15
MilhouseThis is the correct link for the Synaptic demo!
roopeProbably cingular/apple have a deal where apple also gets a percentage of the $$$.22:15
kaatisAleksandyr, ok. so that $499 likely translates to about 700 euros for us (no subsidies on gsm phones in finland)22:15
roopeof network traffic, itunes use etc.22:15
gpdKnowledge_: if you can do that and feel good about yourself then why not -- the 800 is very nice - what is your main beef with the 770?22:16
glass_kaatis: I'd expect even worse22:16
glass_kaatis: it's 2year22:16
||cwmy god i forgot how slow 486's were22:16
Aleksandyrkaatis: ouch.22:16
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Knowledge_gpd: I don't know, I'm just addicted to phones and gadgets like the 770....and always want something new22:17
Knowledge_that's really it22:17
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gpdthat is part of the reason i am not too worried about the iPhone - since I doubt it will do much they don't allow you to do.22:18
gpdI doubt they will have 'xterm' on their priority list!22:18
||cwyeah, but if it realy is osx...22:18
danielsno matter what happens, the iphone will be an absolutely wildly successful product22:19
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roopeYes, I agree.22:19
roopeUnless the FCC won't approve for 24 months. :)22:19
||cwthat would be funny as hell22:19
Aleksandyrthe iPhone represents what I wanted the 770 to do.22:19
inzgpd, can you make a xterm desktop widget?-)22:20
AleksandyrI mean, I don't care that it's a phone, it's the rest of it.22:20
roopeI would buy that device.22:20
gpdinz: you mean you think they will open the platform for developers - as per dashboard?22:21
||cwthey's be stupid not to22:21
gpdthis doesn't make me feel any better...22:21
vittorionow that im used to 800x480 i wont like 320x480 res for browsing22:21
VeggenI bought a N800.22:21
Veggencredit cards *are* too easy.22:22
roopewell, if it's like macosx, you can develop applications, widgets etc. for it.22:22
inzI thouth it _is_ OS X22:22
||cwthat's what they say22:22
roope*takes a shield out and prepares beforehand* personally i've never really understood why the whole platform should be open...22:22
konttoriI completely agree that the UI paradigm they chose for iphone seems to be just the kind of thing maemo should also have.22:22
||cwlets just hope it's not osx like winmo is windows22:22
gpdwell -- either nokia will just give up with the tablets and let apple steal all the glory --- or this might open the market and make tablets more popular22:22
Veggen(but worse yet - I bought a 2 GB SD-card from there for convenience, and it's out of stock, so now my N800 will wait for the damned SD card that I can pick up from any shop... ;-P22:23
glass_it's not full osx for sure22:23
glass_that could run regular osx apps or that kind..22:23
glass_they would have touted that fact on highest possible volume22:23
roopeIf you check masosx system requirements it's quite easy to see it's not full macosx. :)22:23
inzVeggen, can't you call them and say "gimme my friggen N800"?22:23
||cwthey did, a bit22:23
glass_you can do widgets for it and thats it22:23
Veggeninz: hmm, doubt.22:23
glass_no mention of even any kind of java (not even j2me!) on the tech, spec pages22:23
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konttoriRoope: It will probably have darwin in core, and on top of that probably tiny version of the core libraries. Just like maemo is a linux system. So, it can be *said* to be osx (at least at heart)22:29
glass_it's just marketing22:29
glass_like buffing up predictive text input as something new22:30
glass_have to just wait for some actual information that's worth anything22:31
roopethere are certain providers that can provide area sensitive predictive vkb input. meaning that you press there about the correct key and it uses the positions. for instance if you want to press f it takes around dfgcvrt.22:31
roopeIf they have an engine like that, it's really... quite neat.22:32
Aleksandyrntrs: no evidence of working applets =/ sorry22:33
roopebut yes, it's actually narrow for finger size vkb, especially in portrait mode.22:33
roopeactually = awfully.22:33
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glass_unless you have midget hands22:33
roopeThat would rule.22:33
glass_and can't type by feel22:33
glass_"the new mac geek bodymod fad: midget fingers!"22:34
konttoriBy the way, has everyone noticed that : 'Apple Computer Incorporated' Becomes 'Apple, Incorporated'22:34
pokute_glass_: Read "and can't type by feet", but wouldn't that make it even harder or maybe you're just weird.22:34
* mgedmin would not like to try to use the iPhone with gloves on22:34
Knowledge_vittorio: now that im used to 800x480 i wont like 320x480 res for browsing22:34
glass_pokute: well it has accel sensors for determining which way you hold it22:34
roopeThey seem not to be fans of Multimedia computers. ;)22:34
Knowledge_^ that's the reason I can't use any PDA phone...22:35
Knowledge_the only thing I've been able to tolerate is the Treo 700p and that's because I cloned the ESN and got it for free...22:35
danielstko: is that what you were after?22:35
MDKroope: don't kick the laying dog22:36
MDK("multimedia computers")22:36
tkodaniels, about, yes. we want someone (else) to provide play_bling() API22:36
roopeit's a really big dog, it won't mind.22:36
pokute_And oh, if Nokia wants multitouch, Nokia will get it. Nokia has such a large phone-related patent portfolio that it can leverage. :-D22:37
MDKroope: I only hope that iPhone will make some people realize that there is a lot of value in:22:37
danielstko: isn't that what libnotify is for?22:37
MDK1) good UI22:37
MDK2) integrated services22:37
MDK3) polish22:37
Takwhat about 3) finnish ?22:37
tkodaniels, I thought libnotify was basically about bubbles22:37
danielstko: it can't be extended?22:38
MDKpolish as in "polished ui"22:38
JaffaMDK: including "some people" at Nokia?22:38
JaffaThey said this has been in the works for 5 years though; god knows how much investment it's had vs. Maemo :-/22:38
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tkodaniels, not sure it makes sense. besides, we don't have even libnotify :)22:39
MDKroope: dude, I'm polish and I'm not that far from your desk22:39
kender"No, the N800 does *not* support multi touch" -> hehe22:39
MDKroope: watch out ;)22:39
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roopeMany people do realize the value of a good UI and integrated services. It's just a shame that not the right people.22:40
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suihkulokkicompetition is good(tm)22:41
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roopeYes, that's true. both symbian and winmobile are very stagnated.22:42
danielsferenc: er, you're in bulgaria?22:42
ferencdaniels: yep. enjoying the sunshine! :)22:42
ferencwanna come over? ;)22:42
danielsnice.  family, friends, or just a good place to visit?22:42
danielsgoing to australia on friday, which is much warmer this time of year22:42
ferencdaniels: i work from here now for a while.22:43
danielsferenc: oh, cool22:43
ferencdaniels: wow Oz, cool too! you visit home, right?22:43
danielsferenc: yeah, lca + home22:43
MDKroope: we need a revolution22:43
konttoriAre you guys planning on overthrowing your previous Nokia overlords? ;)22:44
JaffaOK, the Developer Device Programme request emails to maemo-* are getting more brazen.22:44
danielsferenc: i would've never thought of bulgaria as a holiday destination, tbh22:44
AleksandyrJaffa: ooh! link me22:44
konttoriI for one welcome our two UI centric overlords Roope and MDK22:44
c0ffeenot giving any information on the program is asking for it22:44
ferencdaniels: i am coming here for over 8 yrs now and it is a great place!22:44
danielsMDK: just hack on some seriously awesome bling, and hang around espoo until you find olli-pekka, and force it on him22:44
* Jaffa dittos kontorri22:44
TakI agree @ c0ffee22:44
danielsferenc: awesome22:44
JaffaFOod time22:44
tkokonttori, don't forget tigert22:45
danielsc0ffee: what more information do you want?22:45
konttoritko: indeed22:45
Tak"Here's our super-duper Developer Device Program!  No details, you can't apply, go away."22:45
mgedmindaniels: that he will get a n800 for 100 eur :)22:45
MDKdaniels: I really wish it was that simple22:45
Aleksandyrdaniels: I think a list of names that includes his a day ago? ;)22:45
ferencdaniels: and if you are into surfing then you can do it here a lot, without sharks :)22:45
danielsc0ffee: it will go to active contributors both to the maemo community and wider open source community, there will be 500 of them, they will cost €99, if you win you will be notified by email22:45
danielsferenc: heh.  sharks aren't really a problem, it's the fatal jellyfish that you have to watch out for. :)22:46
tkoTak, yeah, I think it could've been handled better22:46
danielsMDK: start with ari virtanen?22:46
c0ffeedaniels, that's not all22:46
mgedmincreate a simple cgi script "enter your name here [___] then press the button to see if you will get the developer discount", and always answer "no"22:46
MDKdaniels: I have more trust towards ari jaaksi22:46
c0ffeedaniels, there's also "making your contributions visible may help"22:46
mgedminmight reduce the number of questions22:46
danielsc0ffee: s/may help/is essential/22:46
danielsc0ffee: if no-one knows you've done anything, how will we know to give you a deice?22:46
konttoriHave you seen the BT headset from apple?
c0ffeedaniels, and you prefer to have the application send to maemo-developers then?22:47
c0ffeedaniels, because that is what happens22:47
danielsc0ffee: applications shouldn't be sent, full stop22:47
danielsc0ffee: the idea, as far as i can tell, is to reward active contributors22:47
danielsc0ffee: if you need to send an email applying, then you probably don't meet that requirement22:47
c0ffeen770 is out quite some time22:48
danielsc0ffee: that's the benchmark for membership of the foundation.  if we have to ask who you are, then chances of your application succeeding is very, very low.22:48
c0ffeewell well22:48
c0ffeei already stop whining22:48
c0ffeeit's just like jaffa said that the applications send to m-d are getting a bit strange22:49
konttoriBy the way, is there a list of resolutions N800 supports for video playback? I could add the to media converter and publish tomorrow?22:49
konttori400x240 works, which is god sent.22:49
danielskonttori: 'all of them'22:49
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danielskonttori: yes, we can do arbitrary _upscaling_22:50
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c0ffeedoes it have xvinfo?22:50
danielskonttori: downscaling is done in software because the display controller crashes if you try it in hardware, and is thus very slow22:50
VeggenHmm, so video is gonna work much, much nicer on the N800?22:50
danielsc0ffee: not as shipped, because there's no need.  but maybe the dev image does?22:50
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konttorioh, this is great news. And the codecs?22:50
c0ffeewell, as soon as xephyr is compiled, i can just make a binary22:51
danielsVeggen: yes.  it's not blazing fast in 2006-47 or 2006-51, but it'll be really damn fast as of the next update we do.22:51
c0ffeewith gentoo things are sometimes a bit slow22:51
pokute_I nominate Oyvind Kolas for the development program. :-)22:51
c0ffeedespite -funroll-loops and -ffast-math22:51
danielskonttori: i have no idea, sorry; i do the x server, not the media player.22:51
shaprHm, is iPhone is going to hurt or help the N770 and N800 series?22:51
danielskonttori: 800x480 would work in theory, but reading an 800x480 video off the flash/sd is going to be _pain_.22:51
vittoriodamn fast video sounds great22:51
tkohmm, 16 minutes into 24 and two main characters already killed. cool :)22:51
Veggendaniels: ok, I don't regret ordering my N800. It *is* a significant upgrade.22:51
c0ffeesomebody found a video chat client that interoperates with the n800?22:52
shaprtko: What are you watching?22:52
shaproh, 2422:52
c0ffeeor is there somewhere information on the protocol22:52
Takshapr: that's what we've been arguing about all afternoon22:53
MilhouseSomeone (somewhere) was suggesting the CPU in the N800 doesn't include IVA - is that true?22:53
Tak(afternoon CST)22:53
danielsVeggen: i'd like to release the x server through sardine or herring or whatever, but it needs a newer kernel too, and ttbomk we don't have a mechanism for releasing kernel upgrades.22:53
danielsMilhouse: the iva is definitely present22:53
pokute_Milhouse: What's IVA?22:53
Milhouseexcellent - so it's the full deal, nice :)22:54
pokute_interlace video accelerator22:54
shaprTak: There's an easy solution. Someone port maemo to the iPhone.22:54
danielspokute_: imaging and video accelerator; it's a dsp22:55
tkodaniels, hmm, but at least the linux flasher could flash kernel+initfs from non-fiasco files .. licensing could be tricky22:55
danielswe're not making use of the iva though, at least of -47 and -51.  i don't know about future plans.22:55
* shapr hugs daniels for doing good stuff with the 77022:55
danielstko: well, the kernel's gpl, so we couldn't slap redistribution restrictions on it even if we wanted to.  dunno that anyone cares about initfs.22:56
* pokute_ gives daniels some suffeli.22:56
keesjthe links is still borken is still broken22:56
danielsshapr: sorry to break it to you, but all i've done with the 770 is make sure that the X server still runs on it22:56
shaprdaniels: Sounds like a positive thing to me.22:56
danielskeesj: so is ;)22:56
Takthat's pretty good right there22:56
danielstko: but the biggest problem is that we don't seem to have a sardine-like redistribution mechanism for those sorts of things22:57
c0ffeesuihkulokki, got a link about the protocol as well?22:57
keesjI followed the link from this page
MilhouseOMAP2420 specs:
danielstko: also, i don't think you _need_ a new nolo, but it certainly helps video performance22:57
MilhouseImaging & Video Accelerator provides "full motion video encoding or decoding at rates up to 30 frames per second"; "up to VGA resolution"22:57
vittoriothe new CPU has 3d acceleration. does the N800 support opengl22:58
Milhousehopefully we can take advantage of the IVA in the N800 media player22:58
shaprWhere's the faqbot so I can ask it what nolo means?22:58
suihkulokkic0ffee: I have no idea of the protocol, I would guess it's jabber/jingle related22:58
danielsMilhouse: there's no kernel support for the iva right now, so you'd be hard-pressed to22:58
danielsshapr: NOkia (boot) LOader22:59
mgedminshapr: when you find out, add it to
Milhousemissed your previous post while i was searching for the pdf link - thats a shame about no support22:59
* mgedmin wonders what IVA is, and asks Google about it22:59
Milhouseseems a wasted oppurtunity22:59
shaprmgedmin: When you find out...22:59
c0ffeethe nolo appears to have a small built-in debug shell22:59
c0ffeewhich reminds me that there's still no information about enabling serial console available23:00
danielsMilhouse: patches welcome ;)23:00
mgedmin"image/video accelerator" probably23:00
konttoridaniels: Thanks! Well, if I get N800, I'll be soon testing out that 800x480. should blow peoples minds if it works. 1024 kbps should be enough for that, so it's not bad for the sd.23:00
danielsc0ffee: nolo's shell isn't much use to you unless you're hacking nolo itself: you have to damage nolo to be able to brick your device such that you can't reflash over usb23:01
c0ffeethinking beyond maemo only, I think hacking nolo might be intereesting23:02
c0ffeefor example for loading a netbsd os23:02
Milhousedaniels - any idea if 3D support is there in OS2007?23:02
shaprOr for example, loading the GHC runtime directly on the hardware.23:02
Milhouseopengl i guess, or anything else?23:03
shapr(GHC == Haskell Compiler)23:03
konttoridoes the N800 video call support any other software for pcs / osx / linux than nokias own?23:03
danielsMilhouse: no, there's no hardware acceleration for graphics other than the video colourspace conversion/scaling, probably23:03
c0ffeewhen i tried to figure out the file format on the fiasco images (before the linux flasher was released), I found a bunch of interesting strings in the hex dump :)23:04
Milhouselooking at the PDF it says "2D/3D hardware MBX/VGP accelerators, up to 2 Million polygons/sec"23:04
trenkac0ffee: for example ?23:04
Milhouseah i see - there's no h/w acceleration in OS 2007 - thanks23:04
vittoriobzflag on N800 would rock!23:04
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c0ffeetrenka, well, like the nolo shell23:05
danielss/, probably//23:05
danielsi don't know why i put there.  there is absolutely none.23:05
trenkanolo shell I afraid cannot help to load netbsd23:05
c0ffeetrenka, also the initrd contains support for booting from various other devices23:05
Milhousemaybe SDL has support for the 2D/3D hardware - one can only hope23:06
trenkac0ffee: it's not a secret, AFAIK23:06
c0ffeenot anymore23:06
MDKnetbsd? Wasn't it freebsd that supported arm?23:06
c0ffeeit used to be23:06
c0ffeetrenka, anyway, serial access is at least required to boot something else23:06
danielsMilhouse: it doesn't, sorry23:06
Milhousesob :(23:07
c0ffeetrenka, esp. if one had to replace the actual boot loader23:07
trenkaI do not think it's good idea23:07
c0ffeewell :)23:08
c0ffeethat doesn't really matter23:08
trenkaeven if you are omap guru, it's not enough to write a working bootloader for n80023:08
c0ffeewho talks about 80023:08
c0ffeei'm more thinking about the 77023:08
c0ffeeand what one could do with it if the software update frequency becomes unbearable23:09
danielsthe 770 is no easier to write a bootloader for23:09
VRekonttori: That would be kickass =)23:09
c0ffeeoh, and there are omap boot loaders available23:09
danielsyou have the source to the 770 kernel there already; what would replacing it with bsd gain you?23:09
c0ffeei dont23:09
c0ffeeit contains blobs23:09
trenkac0ffee: there is a bit more devices in the device except omap23:09
shaprHey, it'd be fun, what else is important?23:10
shaprI'd love to get the Haskell runtime on the bare metal 770. It already runs on the bare metal for i386 and Xen, so why not?23:10
c0ffeedaniels, and that includes the wlan & bt driver sources for example?23:10
trenkashapr: no problems, you do not need to hack boot loader for it23:10
shaprPlus, it'd be fun to experiment with typesafe and GC'd embedded operating systems.23:11
suihkulokkic0ffee: does netbsd have them?23:11
c0ffeebut if i dont have them on linux, it doesn't make a difference23:11
c0ffeei could use a proper bsd kernel then as well23:11
shaprc0ffee: The wifi driver source is available, but includes a firmware blob.23:11
c0ffeewhy are you so much faering somebody actually hacking the boot loader?23:11
c0ffeeand bt?23:12
shaprHaven't looked.23:12
c0ffeethe n800 feature page still doesn't mention SCO :(23:12
shaprI am quite interested in the wifi driver sources for the N800, any improvements there would likely be easy to backport to the 770.23:12
shaprc0ffee: btsco?23:12
MilhouseWhat? The iPhone doesn't come with a protective cover!! I'm not getting one.23:12
trenkac0ffee: no no no, I would like very much if nolo get support from community23:13
kenderMilhouse, xDD23:13
kenderMilhouse, give me the moneay23:13
MilhouseCheque is in the post :)23:13
danielsc0ffee: i'm not sure if you realise this, but when i'm sitting here at my desk trying to help out in #maemo while i wait for the server to build, it's really demotivating when people sit here more or less trolling me.23:14
kenderMilhouse, :)23:14
roopeit's probably not even backwards compatible with the ipod.23:14
Milhouseshocking, so people will have to buy new docks? that sucks23:15
danielsc0ffee: all of the standard corporate reasons apply to code that's unreleased: the whole fcc wireless thing, wrote it from specs that didn't let us release the code, code written by others that isn't under a free licence.  pick one.  i don't know the actual reason, but it isn't released, and if it hasn't been released yet, it's almost certainly not going to be.23:15
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danielsc0ffee: i'd like to see the end of all blobs (including opera and flash, e.g.), but people other than me have made that decision for reasons good or bad, and we're all just going to have to live with that.23:15
AleksandyrMilhouse: actually, it is kind of shocking --- part of the strength of the ipod is that EVERYTHING uses that damned dock ;)23:16
Milhousenot true - gen 3 wasn't compatible with gen 2 (or something like that) so they've done it before23:16
glass_oh how i wish my ipod just had a standard small usb hole23:17
danielsMilhouse: i think it was 3g -> 4g that they broke it23:17
Milhousei was close :)23:18
dwddaniels: Purely in your personal opinion, but if a viable alternative to (for example) Opera came along, would you think that Nokia might switch?23:18
Milhousei must say though, that i have a touchscreen phone (SE W950i) and I pretty much hate it... not sure if it's the crappy Symbian UIQ or the whole concept of touchscreen phones23:19
danielsdwd: i don't actually know, but even if i did, i'd honestly rather not second-guess my employer in public, sorry ...23:19
dwddaniels: Understandable.23:19
AleksandyrMilhouse: gens 1 and 2 had no dock at all. Gen 3 introduced the dock, and it has not changed (except to add video out, which did not break compat)23:19
Milhousei'm pretty sure that somewhere along the way, all accessories were incompatible with a new generation of ipods23:20
AleksandyrMilhouse: my gen 3 ipod (first dock generation) works with every new ipod accessory.23:20
AleksandyrMilhouse: the nano and video removed the remote port on top, which broke a few accessories, but the dock remained the same.23:21
dwdMilhouse: The old covers aren't compatible with the Nano. :-)23:21
Milhouseelectrical accessories :)23:21
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roopedwd: I'm pretty sure if Nokia has two viable options, one free and one costing licenses, that they would opt for the free solution.23:21
Milhousecan't remember the details - i bought an ipod and never use it now.. battery is always flat when i want to use it23:21
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Milhousenow use the W950i on the move23:22
AleksandyrMilhouse: new batteries for the ipod are cheap and easy now ;)23:22
AleksandyrI have a car dock for mine, and it's simply priceless. Then again, I have a two hour commute to work.23:22
dwdroope: That was what I thought. Hence the best way to remove the blobs would be to hack on an alternative.23:22
tkowe prefer free solutions, but if a proprietary one is technically noticeably better...23:22
tigertdwd: that has always been the way to do things23:22
tigertwith X drivers, wlan etc23:22
dwdI have a tough 10 second commute to work. Kills me.23:23
tigertthe less platform code we need to maintain ourselves the better23:23
tigertlike with gtk, etc23:23
Aleksandyrdwd: I don't know if you can feel it right now, but I'm trying to kill you with my mind ;)23:23
tigertnobody enjoys maintaining a huge pile of patches for example23:23
dwdtigert: Yup. So the answer to people complaining that Opera isn't Floss is to tell them to go work on Minimo, or NetSurf.23:24
danielsdwd: indeed.  as soon as you get to the stage of proprietary and good vs. free and better, it's kind of a no-brainer, really ...23:24
dwdAleksandyr: Believe me, it took a *long* time to get myself into the position where I could get a telecommute position.23:24
c0ffeedaniels, ah, sorry, I don't mean to troll you23:25
dwddaniels: But, of course, Nokia couldn't actually say that officially, as it would damage the relationship with Opera.23:25
c0ffeedaniels, and from my background as reverse-engineer I very well know the whole licence issue stuff23:25
c0ffeedaniels, the level of support is very much appreciated23:25
danielsc0ffee: no worries23:26
c0ffeedaniels, still you also have to see that from point of view of opensource it would be nice to have full sources23:26
danielsc0ffee: absolutely, i do, which is why i said it.23:26
c0ffeedaniels, which commonly means to sit down and translate endless assembler dumps to C23:26
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suihkulokkitsk. tsk. that's not proper clean room reverse engineering.23:27
c0ffeethe NICI installation looks funny23:27
pokute_Oh. Found a treasure on engadget comments. "Dude ... it has WIFI and Bluetooth + .... oh, and -- because it runs OS X -- it is the only phone that is multi-threaded ... If anyone thinks that the iPhone is stupid, they just don't know what they are talking about!"23:28
c0ffeesuihkulokki, if I tell somebody else about the C code and he/she rewrites it, voila, it's perfect cleanroom23:28
dwdI have to say, I thought Symbian was multithreaded.23:29
vidarino"dirty room" reverse engineering is probably legal in many places, too. ;)23:29
dwdOf course, all the UI runs within a single thread on a single process, but that's different.23:29
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pokute_So did I, but maybe we're all wrong. :-D23:30
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dwdWas it something I said?23:30
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timelesscocoa doesn't actually require all ui to run on a single thread23:30
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timelessit just requires proper locking if you choose not to23:30
Milhouse"More tea vicker?"23:30
Aleksandyrdwd: last I checked, the new versions of Symbian run realtime and handle the radios...which I rather expect means multithreading, ATVL.23:30
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dwdtimeless: No, on Symbian, the "applications" the phone runs are loaded into the UI thread. Just one on the whole phone. They can, and do, start their own threads for processing, etc.23:31
danielsdwd: yeah, for all the 9300's faults, i doubt too many other phones would survive exit code 11 from PhoneServerThread23:31
timelessdwd: i wasn't talking about symbian23:31
Aleksandyrdaniels: exit code 11?23:31
timelessunless symbian has a 'cocoa'23:31
dwdtimeless: Yeah, I was just making the distinction between accesses to the UI from a single thread, vs the entire UI running in a single thread.23:32
pokute_Aleksandyr: Yup. The treasure was that the person thinks he knows what's he's talking about and then tells that no other phone is multithreaded. :-)23:32
timelessdwd: oh, i'm talking about a single process23:32
timelesswhich can choose to split ui work across multiple threads if it wants to risk playing w/ locks23:32
Aleksandyrpokute_: Suddenly this conversation veers towards making sense...although I'm reading one out of every ten lines, since I'm working ;)23:33
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dwdtimeless: Yeah. Of course, Linux can do much the same, it just gets really scary, in part because Xlib isn't multi-thread capable.23:34
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tkodaniels, I wonder if that would really be SEGV :)23:35
timelessdwd: difference is, i think cocoa ui threaded work would actually work23:35
Aleksandyrdaniels: Ah.23:35
timelessotoh, in beos and windows each window really does have its own thread23:35
dwdtimeless: IIRC, there's a threadsafe version of Xlib floating about somewhere which allows this kind of thing.23:36
danielstko: dunno, but it was entertaining nonetheless23:36
pokute_What's non-disclosure agreement in finnish?23:36
* Tak is soo tempted to reply to daniels's listmail with: "Oh, are you on the team? Do you know when the contact will be made?!"23:36
timelesspokute: isn't all legalese written in English? :)23:36
danielsdwd: well, xlib is threadsafe, but using it properly is even more difficult than using xlib properly in general23:36
danielsdwd: (i.e. not actually possible)23:36
timeless(or french if you're on the wrong side of the pond)23:36
dwddaniels: I thought it wasn't safe to use xlib from more than one thread?23:37
timelessthe primitives of x11 shouldn't have issues w/ being used from threads23:37
timelessat least from memory23:37
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* Jaffa unfoods.23:38
danielsdwd: it's safe, as long as you do it properly23:38
Takis that a euphemism for a restroom trip?23:38
dwdTak: Thanks for that mental image.23:39
Takthank Jaffa23:39
pokute_It can also mean emptying youself from the other end.23:40
dwdTak: No, I merely read that as "back from dinner". Not "Now I must insert sharp pointy stuff through my ears in the hope of destroying that part of my brain holding that image".23:40
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Milhouseit's amazing reading the comments on engadget - so many people who are sold on the looks. Such a shame the N800 is so bland23:40
TakI dunno23:40
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dwdMilhouse: But it's *silver*...23:41
TakI think if nokia had released it, people wouldn't be quite as dazzled23:41
Milhousea bit more bling perhaps would have helped the N80023:41
timelessnokia wouldn't have done it right :)23:41
Tak"omg it's the iphone it must be teh sexy!"23:41
Milhousethen of course people would be moaning because it had too much chrome... :)23:41
dwdTak: :-)23:41
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dwdMilhouse: And who would be so petty?23:42
* Jaffa did mean in it the sense that dwd parsed.23:42
Takcan I look at the source to your parser?23:43
dwdJaffa: You have no idea how relieved that makes me feel.23:43
dwdTak: I only let my wife see that.23:43
bstockquick question, does all n770 software work on the n800?23:43
dwdTak: She signed an NDA.23:43
Milhousecan't wait to see what the battery life is like on the iPhone - wouldn't fancy having to charge the thing every 24 hours!23:43
Aleksandyrbstock: no23:43
bstockshitty... thx23:43
kenderMilhouse, 5h with internet using23:43
Aleksandyrbstock: better answer is "not yet".23:43
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kenderMilhouse, 14h audio23:43
bstockheh yeah notice they didn't announce anything about the battery life, not that i heard anyway23:43
Milhousebut it's so thing, the battery can't be that large - that's really good, in fact almost unbelievable23:44
dwdIf the iPhone has motion sensors and bluetooth, how long before someone writes a Wiimote app for it?23:45
Milhousedoes it come with a strap? :)23:45
Milhousenot sure what's more expensive - the big arse LCD TV or the iPhone-come-Wiimote...23:45
Milhousethough I'd guess both could end up seriously harmed in the even of any "slippage" during play23:46
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bstocki'm looking forward to it, though it is a little pricy23:48
MilhouseDefinately not going to rush into it - will quite happily wait into 2008 to see how it shakes out23:48
MilhouseAfter my experience with the W950i I have no desire to own another touchscreen phone to be honest23:49
bstockmeh, apple seems to have their shit together though23:49
bstocki think this is the first touchscreen device though..23:49
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Milhouseunless they can make a touchscreen feel like real buttons I doubt even apple can pull it off23:49
Milhousebstock: for apple, possibly (if you ignore the Newton)23:50
dwdPersonally, I've given up with smartphones, anyway - I've long considered my 770 to be a smartphone without the phone. Just smart, if you like. The phone lives in my pocket unless I'm making a call, in which case the 770 does.23:50
Milhousedefinately not the first touchscreen phone - there's loads out there23:50
dwdMilhouse: I think bstock meant Apple's first touchscreen.23:50
bstockyeah but all the other smartphones run windows23:50
dwdExcept he's forgetting the Newton, I think.23:51
Milhousein that case no - Newton was touchscreen23:51
wasabidwd: yeah, I have that same attitude.23:51
bstockand we all know how much fun those are. my old hp ipaq crashed more than my damn 486 running win9523:51
wasabiThere's no replacement for the widescreen of the 770 in a phone.23:51
dwdbstock: Erm, no. Windows has a very tiny market share.23:51
Milhousebstock: no they don't - Symbian as well23:51
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wasabianything like the n770, I wouldn't want to holdto my ears23:51
dwdbstock: Mostly it's Symbian and Linux.23:51
bstockyeah... i dunno i guess i'm just an apple fanboy. ever since osx they've really got their act together23:52
Takthat's what headsets are for23:52
dwdTak: Yeah, but I hate those.23:53
Takthen you're screwed23:53
MilhouseTak: that's why the 770/N800 need BT headsets so baldy - the devices themselves are so bloody huge!23:53
Takeven a corded headset would be ok with a lengthy enough cord from pocket -> ear23:54
dwdTak: No, just old-fashioned. I'd be happy with a BT "headset" that looked like a phone.23:54
obscurebstock: drooling over the iphone?23:54
bstockanyone have any good, fairly cheap GPS bluetooth units compatable w/ the 77023:54
obscuredwd: thats neat - didn't notice any like that tho :/23:55
obscuredwd: guess cause it only makes sense for the 77023:55
dwdobscure: Yes, and given that you'd still have a phone anyway, no sense at all.23:55
bstocki've been thinking about taking my 770 to compusa and trying to get our corp rep to 'replace' my 770 with the warranty we bought, but upgrade to the 80023:56
obscuredwd: yep. except for using gtalk/gizmodo etc23:56
bstocki don't know if they're allowed to do that23:56
danielsbstock: the nokia ld-1w and ld-3w both work23:56
obscuregluck bstock  :)23:56
daniels(not being a corporate shill, they're just the only two that i've personally used.)23:56
* gpd realizes that Apple will have to release iCal, Addressbook for Windows -- OR will try to leverage iPhone users to buy a Mac23:56
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lardmanbstock: I've got an iBlue which works fine, and was cheap (for the UK)23:57
dwdgpd: The blurb implies that they'll release something compatible for the PC.23:57
dwdlardman: How cheap is cheap?23:57
bstockhmm, looks like around $100 for the iblue... wonder if it works in the us23:58
obscurelardman: used to be with the zaurus crowd right?23:58
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hubI have a question for the N800 camera23:58
hubis it controllable in software?23:58
lardmanbstock: I think it was just under £40, which is pretty cheap for us23:58
hubover USB23:58
Milhousehub: he's just popped out - will be back later23:58
danielshub: define 'controllable'23:58
dwdhub: Over USB I doubt.23:58
Aleksandyrbstock: GPS is GPS.23:58
Aleksandyrbstock: if it works in the UK, it'll work anywhere, etc23:59
t_b_banyone familar with gpsd and kismet23:59
lardmanobscure: Yes. Still with them, just been busy lately and having troubles getting back in23:59
dwdAleksandyr: Actually, not so... But the European system isn't up and running yet.23:59
bstockheh yeah, guess it wouldn't be 'global' if it didn't23:59
keesjAll this negative energy makes me fell like I want to hybernate for a while23:59
t_b_bi get that running, but everytime the logged data will be overide23:59
keesj(on the mailing that is)23:59
lardmanobscure: in terms of all the things that have happened, etc.23:59
dwdAleksandyr: But of course, when it is, it'll alsoglobal.23:59
hubdwd: thining afterward, over USB should be just a matter of writting the software :-)23:59
hubanyone a clue how to request de developer unit?23:59
Aleksandyrdwd: ehrm, if it's GPS, it's...GPS. Global Positioning System.23:59

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