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| hircus | has anyone had trouble in installing Sardine / Herring in Scratchbox? | 03:22 |
|---|---|---|
| hircus | I could not cleanly remove maemo-repository (/usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure is no longer part of debconf) | 03:23 |
| hircus | I *might* be using the wrong Sirocco image to start the install process, though. Any idea? | 03:24 |
| hircus | um, might be because I selected the wrong debian devkit. trying with just plain 'debian' now | 03:28 |
| hircus | nope, same problem. help? | 03:31 |
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| Tak | hooray! dgen's crashy! | 06:43 |
| rev | BOOYA | 06:48 |
| Tak | heh | 06:48 |
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| jaek | is it possible to run scripts that run when my bluetooth dialup link goes up/down? | 07:33 |
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| jaek | i want it to ssh home to make a socks proxy connection | 07:37 |
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| pahartik | can Nokia 770 communicate with more than one Bluetooth device at same time? | 09:47 |
| pahartik | devices I currently use: Linksys NSLU2 as Bluetooth 2.0 PAN access point, Apple iBook G4 as Bluetooth 1.2 PAN client, Nokia 6310i as Bluetooth 1.1 serial port, Nokia HS-11W as Bluetooth 1.1 headset... I can connect from workstation to access point, telephone or headset, but if I connect to two at same time, it slows down or completely stops Bluetooth until one connection is closed... | 10:01 |
| * pahartik does not have Nokia 770 yet, but would like to use it for NAT between GPRS uplink and workstation | 10:06 | |
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| mlpug | i try to get root access. is my configuration somehow invalid. if I write su it says "this applet requires root privileges" | 10:14 |
| mlpug | if I command sudo -s it asks password. I give "rootme" (isnt this supposed to be the default). it says incorrect password | 10:14 |
| pahartik | mlpug: "sudo" expects password of user that launched it... | 10:16 |
| pahartik | mlpug: and whether anything is allowed, depends on contents of "/etc/sudoers" | 10:19 |
| mlpug | pahartik, really? the title of sudo man page (in ubuntu 6.04) is "execute a command as another user". I should now the password of the "other user" to be able to run commands not the user that launched it, right? | 10:20 |
| mlpug | i dont know whats in /etc/sudoers (permission denied). I can do nothing until I get root access to this device | 10:21 |
| pahartik | mlpug: "sudo" expects password of "yourself user"... | 10:21 |
| mlpug | okay | 10:22 |
| mlpug | whats the default user password then | 10:22 |
| pahartik | mlpug: and there are packages for Maemo that enable things by adding entries to "/etc/sudoers" | 10:23 |
| mlpug | actually I dont want to run commands as sudo. I want ordinary root command prompt. how to get it? | 10:25 |
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| mlpug | i got the root command prompt with sudo gainroot. no passwords were required | 10:37 |
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| pahartik | mlpug: that is good | 10:39 |
| mlpug | yes. i guess there are different kinds of images and exact way to do these things depends on what sw you happen to have in your device | 10:40 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:32 |
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| MDK | /scratchbox/compilers/cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm/bin/sbox-arm-linux-ld: unrecognised emulation mode: armelf_linux | 18:14 |
| MDK | Supported emulations: armelf_linux_eabi | 18:14 |
| MDK | anyone? | 18:14 |
| AD-N770 | sorry MDK, I arrived now. What about are you asking ? | 18:16 |
| MDK | AD-N770: /scratchbox/compilers/cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm/bin/sbox-arm-linux-ld: unrecognised emulation mode: armelf_linux | 18:17 |
| MDK | Supported emulations: armelf_linux_eabi | 18:17 |
| MDK | coming from ld | 18:17 |
| MDK | while trying to built gcc 4.0.3 | 18:18 |
| tko | I think you're supposed to compile compilers outside sbox | 18:19 |
| MDK | tko: cross-compile? | 18:19 |
| AD-N770 | MDK I think so too | 18:21 |
| MDK | still it's a bit strange | 18:21 |
| AD-N770 | MDK have u read this link http://www.scratchbox.org/wiki/ForeignToolchains | 18:22 |
| MDK | just reading... | 18:24 |
| AD-N770 | it's intended for sbox 1.x but I think is usefull too | 18:25 |
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| MDK | tko: I'm trying to build a D compiler, it uses gcc as a frontend | 18:29 |
| MDK | tko: did you check D? Onne brought it to my attention recently, it's pretty awsome | 18:30 |
| MDK | very interesting for our needs | 18:30 |
| tko | MDK, pvanhoof mentioned it a long time ago, but I haven't really tried using it though | 18:30 |
| tko | being a new thing it has slight bootstrapping problems :) | 18:31 |
| MDK | tko: it's pretty old actually, few years | 18:34 |
| MDK | they're planning stable 1.0 release in january | 18:34 |
| MDK | there are gtk bindings it seems | 18:34 |
| MDK | the guy who wrote it is the guy who wrote first c++ compiler | 18:35 |
| MDK | it's a darn modern language | 18:35 |
| MDK | beats the crap out of C# | 18:35 |
| MDK | (in terms of semantics) | 18:36 |
| MDK | slower than C, but faster than C++ | 18:36 |
| MDK | and supports all C data types natively... | 18:36 |
| MDK | darn, I'm in love | 18:36 |
| MDK | ;( | 18:36 |
| MDK | err, ;) | 18:36 |
| ssvb | MDK, I tried D a year or two ago, they were talking about getting stable soon at that time as well :) | 18:41 |
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| nomis | is that the same D that was kind of popular on the Amiga? | 18:42 |
| MDK | ssvb: heh, I imagine ;) | 18:43 |
| MDK | ssvb: did you like it? | 18:43 |
| pvanhoof | MDK, if you start a project in D :), I'll join | 18:43 |
| pvanhoof | so tell me when you start | 18:43 |
| pvanhoof | any project :) | 18:43 |
| pvanhoof | the problem is that we are both in love :) | 18:44 |
| tko | D compiler v2? =) | 18:44 |
| pvanhoof | hehe | 18:44 |
| nomis | or am I confusing something there? | 18:44 |
| tko | is the compiler written with d even? | 18:44 |
| MDK | pvanhoof: heh ;) Yeah, it's cool | 18:44 |
| MDK | some stuff is just gorgeous about it | 18:45 |
| pvanhoof | s/cpp//g :) | 18:45 |
| ssvb | MDK: yes, I liked the idea, but after tracking its development for some time, I did not like the fact that each new version was somewhat noncompatible with the previous one | 18:45 |
| MDK | I like the 'scope (exit) do_something; ' thing | 18:45 |
| pvanhoof | well I like the simple things like interfaces (availability), properties and the fact that indeed all C types are native | 18:46 |
| pvanhoof | which means, indeed, binding to C is like writing normal programs | 18:46 |
| pvanhoof | and it simply cuts all the crap of C++ | 18:47 |
| pvanhoof | being cpp, multiple inheritance, over-syntaxiation | 18:47 |
| MDK | yeah | 18:47 |
| pvanhoof | my simply cutting with some of the mis-designs of C | 18:47 |
| MDK | and the C legacy in c++ | 18:47 |
| MDK | (.h files, etc.) | 18:47 |
| pvanhoof | in stead of trying to support it, what C++ does | 18:47 |
| ssvb | MDK, so after the compiler refused to accept my old D code, I decided to wait for a stable version 1.0 :) | 18:48 |
| pvanhoof | excuse me, what C++ incorrectly does | 18:48 |
| MDK | ssvb: yeah, I can understand the pain | 18:48 |
| pvanhoof | just the very idea of implementing templates (generics) in cpp | 18:48 |
| pvanhoof | that just amazes me (the amount of stupidity is amazing) | 18:49 |
| MDK | heh | 18:49 |
| pvanhoof | and in modern times, are .h files to declare API as public ... and cpp in general | 18:49 |
| pvanhoof | well .. it, ... I don't have words for it | 18:50 |
| MDK | anyways, I think gnome will need to get out of the gobject shithole sooner or later | 18:50 |
| MDK | D is one solution | 18:50 |
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| pvanhoof | oh it will problably stay there for some time | 18:50 |
| pvanhoof | the solution, i think, is native support for it in a language like D | 18:50 |
| MDK | pvanhoof: yeah, that's true | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | so acknowledging that this exception exists | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | in the compiler | 18:51 |
| MDK | pvanhoof: but D is a solution in a way, that it allows a "transitional" approach due to C compatibility | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | and then letting the rewrites happen over time | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | well, I want the language to make it possible to inherit GObject classes, to implement GTypeInterface gtypes | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | things like that | 18:51 |
| pvanhoof | it's not that tomorrow the existing ones will be gone | 18:52 |
| pvanhoof | and actually, those are simple for a compiler to support | 18:52 |
| pvanhoof | just letting the language touch the internals of how classes and interfaces are handled | 18:52 |
| pvanhoof | and writing a glue | 18:53 |
| pvanhoof | or making this pluggable in the language | 18:53 |
| pvanhoof | so having a compiler plugin, that recognizes gobject classes as D classes | 18:53 |
| pvanhoof | I'm making it sound simple .. I'm aware that it isn't that simple | 18:53 |
| pvanhoof | but that is what I would propose | 18:54 |
| MDK | gc is the hard part I guess | 18:54 |
| pvanhoof | indeed | 18:54 |
| pvanhoof | it has always been the hard part, when mixing languages | 18:54 |
| pvanhoof | converting types, which isn't hard because of D's native support for C types | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | s/support/way of working | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | and garbage collection | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | p/invoke is the easy part | 18:55 |
| MDK | crap, now when cross-compiling I'm getting 'as: unrecognized option `-mfloat-abi=soft' | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | in C# its is far more easy to language bind a C library that Java, because converting types is far more easy | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | that's because in C# you have structs | 18:55 |
| pvanhoof | D beats the crap out of C# in converting types .. because there's no such thing as a need to convert hings | 18:56 |
| tko | http://piumarta.com/pepsi sounds pretty cool also | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | so in terms of interopability with existing libraries, is D a winner over all existing higher languages | 18:56 |
| pvanhoof | however, MDK .. garbage collecting in D is also very interesting | 18:57 |
| pvanhoof | you can mark classes as being ones that shouldn't be garbage collected | 18:57 |
| pvanhoof | or, of which the instances shouldn't be ... | 18:58 |
| pvanhoof | that is an interesting concept for GObject language binding | 18:58 |
| pvanhoof | and you can implement smartpointers or autopointers in D afaik | 18:58 |
| pvanhoof | again interesting | 18:58 |
| pvanhoof | the two combined .. | 18:58 |
| wasabi_ | Believe you can do that in C# too. | 18:58 |
| pvanhoof | and you have a solution for 90% of the cases for GObjects | 18:58 |
| MDK | C# is interesting, I but I recently started having doubts about it's wide-spread adoption | 18:59 |
| pvanhoof | wasabi_, well it depends on how complete the generics/template's possibilities are | 18:59 |
| MDK | it's getting too controversial | 19:00 |
| pvanhoof | people whine to much about politics | 19:00 |
| wasabi_ | Wide spread adoption where? | 19:00 |
| wasabi_ | In the little tiny open source world? | 19:00 |
| pvanhoof | this is a problem for your Diva project too. And more than likely the reason why dudes start pitivi's | 19:00 |
| wasabi_ | Got me. | 19:00 |
| wasabi_ | Some huge majority of real businesses already do use C#. | 19:00 |
| MDK | wasabi_: I'm not much interested about 'real businesses' | 19:01 |
| wasabi_ | It's sort of my primary profession. ;) | 19:01 |
| pvanhoof | MDK, people should be into getting-things-done | 19:01 |
| pvanhoof | rather than whining | 19:01 |
| MDK | I'm interested about the open-source communities | 19:01 |
| pvanhoof | especially the open source communites | 19:01 |
| tko | does d have native boolean type? the first example I saw (ab)uses int as boolean... | 19:02 |
| wasabi_ | Well, we could argue about that for days. I think the recent rise of open source has been directly attributable to money arriving, from businesses. | 19:02 |
| * wasabi_ points to Nokia/Novell/RedHat/IBM and a few hundred others. | 19:02 | |
| MDK | tko: sure, 'bool' | 19:02 |
| MDK | wasabi_: that's true | 19:03 |
| MDK | wasabi_: scaringly true | 19:03 |
| pvanhoof | oh I'm not so scared about it. | 19:03 |
| wasabi_ | Why? What did you expect? Heh. | 19:03 |
| wasabi_ | I'm a capitalist at heart, anyways. SO it's not really a suprise. | 19:03 |
| wasabi_ | When people eat, they work. | 19:03 |
| pvanhoof | exactly | 19:03 |
| MDK | wasabi_: but those companies need to stay close to open-source | 19:03 |
| wasabi_ | The goal is to not have the moral positions be run over by the steamroller that is a corporation. | 19:03 |
| wasabi_ | And I think we are doing a remarkably good job. | 19:04 |
| MDK | wasabi_: since they try to benefit from that in the first place | 19:04 |
| MDK | so they need to adopt to the community rules and standards | 19:04 |
| wasabi_ | Sure. That's a path to a winning business plan. | 19:04 |
| wasabi_ | So, since it's winning, the ones that don't do it, lose. ;) | 19:04 |
| wasabi_ | Like, Nokia. They don't want to maintain a Gtk fork. | 19:04 |
| wasabi_ | Because it is a time sink. | 19:04 |
| pvanhoof | MDK, which is why people should stop pissing on people like Richard .. that pissing is causing companies to disobey those community rules | 19:05 |
| pvanhoof | as in: oh, it's just a bunch of religious idiots writing blog items | 19:05 |
| MDK | yeah, so in the end, you need to stay with the community/tools they use | 19:05 |
| pvanhoof | and: the community in itself doesn't care about the ideals anymore | 19:05 |
| wasabi_ | I guess if you're a socialist at heart, then you're probably not to happy about the status quo. | 19:05 |
| MDK | wasabi_: like novell. They might want to give C# to the customers. But customers don't contribute back | 19:05 |
| wasabi_ | But I don't give that idea much long term merit anyways.;) | 19:05 |
| MDK | wasabi_: I said "scaringly" because I'm a bit worried what might happen when the money stops flowing | 19:06 |
| wasabi_ | I guess I don't follow. | 19:06 |
| pvanhoof | oh, then opensource goes back to its roots .. as in 1998 | 19:06 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 19:06 |
| wasabi_ | I build software in C# all day long. | 19:06 |
| wasabi_ | And I do my best to contribute to Mono and Gtk and those things, as the need merits. | 19:06 |
| wasabi_ | If I get fired? I stop contributing. | 19:07 |
| wasabi_ | Doesn't take away all I've already contributed. ;) | 19:07 |
| MDK | wasabi_: my only point is that (as someone who wrote a shitload of C# too) I'm aware that some people have aversion towards C# | 19:08 |
| MDK | being a novell/ms technology | 19:08 |
| MDK | I don't want to dispute does it even make sense | 19:08 |
| wasabi_ | In the open source community, yes, totally. | 19:08 |
| MDK | since that's not really important... the thing is, that C# has, unlike most other languages, a lot of hatred enemies | 19:08 |
| wasabi_ | But like everything, if they can come up with an appropiate alternative, then they'll have an argument. | 19:09 |
| wasabi_ | Java isn't quite as compelling. | 19:09 |
| wasabi_ | at least imo | 19:09 |
| MDK | true | 19:10 |
| wasabi_ | Because the people who like C#, at least in the business world, are trying to eat. | 19:10 |
| Pierre | just like php has dozen haters (in all worlds), but who cares about haters? mono and php are good languages and the c# specs are open no? | 19:10 |
| wasabi_ | Open enough. | 19:10 |
| MDK | and speaking about money -- I guess it's not a secret that nokia is sponsoring a lot of projects in the gnome world | 19:10 |
| MDK | that's good | 19:10 |
| MDK | for everybody | 19:10 |
| Pierre | pvanhoof: the community in general does care about the ideals. But many members have grown (aka not student anymore). Bread and watter are not enough anymore ;) | 19:11 |
| Pierre | & re :) | 19:11 |
| wasabi_ | I think it's important to remember that nokia isn't sponsering those projects out of the goodness of it's heart | 19:11 |
| MDK | but it'll prolly stop one day, as nokia needs to make some money back | 19:11 |
| wasabi_ | They see a money making opportunity. | 19:11 |
| MDK | exactly | 19:11 |
| wasabi_ | And I think they have a reasonable chance of success. | 19:11 |
| MDK | if we, as a community, can survive that -- than it's good | 19:11 |
| wasabi_ | What, how many people did it take Nokia to put together the n770 software stack? | 19:11 |
| wasabi_ | How many people did it take MS to do the same with their PDAish offerings? | 19:12 |
| wasabi_ | They can compete great simply on lower cost I suspect. | 19:12 |
| wasabi_ | I hope they pop out a complete competitor soon, though. | 19:13 |
| wasabi_ | Or they'll miss their chance. | 19:13 |
| MDK | wasabi_: who? MS? | 19:13 |
| wasabi_ | nokia. | 19:13 |
| wasabi_ | A proper competitor in the PDA space. | 19:14 |
| wasabi_ | The n770 somehow purposefully is ignoring it. | 19:14 |
| suihkulokki | "PDA space" | 19:14 |
| wasabi_ | suihkulokki: Ya know, email synching, contact synching, with corporate mail servers, etc. | 19:14 |
| suihkulokki | you mean the one that never really sold, and is dropping in sales ever since palm? | 19:14 |
| wasabi_ | You mean like the blackberry? | 19:15 |
| wasabi_ | Or the Windows Smartphone? | 19:15 |
| suihkulokki | that's a phone, not a pda | 19:15 |
| wasabi_ | Devices I've bought 40 of in the last year. | 19:15 |
| wasabi_ | for our sales force. | 19:15 |
| suihkulokki | and for those nokia has symbian and eseries | 19:15 |
| wasabi_ | Psssh. | 19:15 |
| wasabi_ | The n770's form factor would be much better. ;) | 19:15 |
| MDK | symbian is a pile of crap | 19:16 |
| glass | yes | 19:16 |
| suihkulokki | I don't disagree | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | I buy smart phones for our sales force, wiht the knowledge that nobody will EVER receive or send a call from it. | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | They use it for email only. | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | And access to internal web apps. | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | They buy a real phone for voice. | 19:16 |
| glass | that kind of blows | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | nobody wants to hold a brick to their ear. | 19:16 |
| wasabi_ | sidetalking? | 19:16 |
| MDK | I just hope that iPhone will come out and beat the crap out of nokia N-series | 19:17 |
| glass | sidetalking wasn't that bad | 19:17 |
| glass | besides, the speaker was strong enough so you could use it normally too.. | 19:17 |
| MDK | so that nokia will start investing more in osso | 19:17 |
| suihkulokki | oooooh iPhone | 19:17 |
| wasabi_ | That's what sort of annoys me a little bit about the n770. If they were to just complete teh calendar/contacts synchring and support. | 19:17 |
| glass | hah iphone.. | 19:17 |
| MDK | and I'm saying this as a nokia employee ;) | 19:17 |
| suihkulokki | it must be great because it's apple | 19:17 |
| wasabi_ | And leave off the phone component. | 19:17 |
| wasabi_ | Business people all around would swarm to it. | 19:17 |
| suihkulokki | stupid lemmings | 19:17 |
| glass | it wouldn't hurt 770 to have a built in 3g modem.. | 19:18 |
| MDK | suihkulokki: apple knows something about usability | 19:18 |
| tko | I hate closed source "bug tracking" .. I'd like gmail to directly throw out definite spam (with customizable level of definite) but I've no idea if anyone even read my suggestion | 19:18 |
| wasabi_ | glass: Probably not hurt as much as not really help. | 19:18 |
| glass | flatrate 3g is convinient vs. hunting for wifi etc.. | 19:18 |
| wasabi_ | DUN through BT to your real phone. | 19:18 |
| wasabi_ | Which has the 3g component. | 19:18 |
| MDK | suihkulokki: the usability of symbian is just plain crap | 19:18 |
| tko | every now and then there's a couple false positives in the spam folder, but finding those among 3000 others is kind of pain | 19:19 |
| wasabi_ | glass: You then sell the N770 + another nokia phone as a pair. | 19:19 |
| wasabi_ | Some bundled deal, etc. | 19:19 |
| wasabi_ | My sales people would love that. | 19:19 |
| MDK | suihkulokki: and I like what apple does, because it makes the silly "let's just throw some new random features in and sell millions" paradigm looks stupid | 19:20 |
| wasabi_ | Wait isn't that what apple does? :) | 19:20 |
| wasabi_ | http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/pocketpc/default.mspx <--- I've bought 40 of those in the past year. | 19:20 |
| wasabi_ | I'd much rather have bought 40 N770s | 19:20 |
| glass | wasabi: the modem being in the phone has the added bonus of only needing 1 sim(and one flatfee 3g sub.. vs. having one for the phonephone and one for the device..) | 19:20 |
| suihkulokki | MDK: sounds like you have drank your kool-aid | 19:21 |
| wasabi_ | glass: Not a big deal, that's what we do for windows mobile now. | 19:21 |
| wasabi_ | Cost isn't the problem. Features are. | 19:21 |
| wasabi_ | Ease of management on IT. | 19:21 |
| wasabi_ | Being able to ssh into your sales person's device and fix it would be AWESOME. | 19:21 |
| wasabi_ | hence why i'd like linux there. | 19:21 |
| MDK | suihkulokki: I don't care about apple. I don't even own a single apple product | 19:23 |
| wasabi_ | i own one, never again. :) | 19:23 |
| MDK | suihkulokki: but I like they're business model | 19:23 |
| suihkulokki | wasabi_: can't you use webcalendar/contacts? | 19:23 |
| wasabi_ | No. | 19:23 |
| wasabi_ | offline support is required. | 19:23 |
| suihkulokki | if you are allways connected, there should be no need to have the data on device. | 19:23 |
| suihkulokki | local http server ;) | 19:23 |
| glass | mdk: what business model? having one hit product every 5 years? | 19:24 |
| wasabi_ | Pssh. | 19:24 |
| wasabi_ | I like how outlook mobile works. | 19:24 |
| wasabi_ | It syncs mail/cal/contacts locally, and on reconnect it pushes them in the background. | 19:24 |
| wasabi_ | also MS CRM. | 19:24 |
| suihkulokki | sounds like you have locked yourself in | 19:24 |
| wasabi_ | A very small percentage of actual business give a damn about lock in. ;) | 19:25 |
| wasabi_ | Those products work. They're not uber expensive, and they get the job done. | 19:25 |
| suihkulokki | even if 770 had calendar syncing, it would unlikely support propiertary protocols by ms | 19:25 |
| wasabi_ | Sure it would. Evo does. | 19:25 |
| suihkulokki | not very well | 19:26 |
| wasabi_ | Well, with the crashing bugs worked out, it'd be fine. ;) | 19:26 |
| suihkulokki | ..atleast the last time i used it.. oh ok :) | 19:26 |
| wasabi_ | The functionality is there. It's just massively unstable. | 19:26 |
| tko | I've had a brief look at the connector and it's just scary :) | 19:28 |
| wasabi_ | Yeah it's terribel. | 19:28 |
| wasabi_ | But, if it can just be made stable, it'd be good enough. | 19:28 |
| tko | I think people have been complaining evo itself getting more unstable recently | 19:28 |
| wasabi_ | yeah. =( | 19:28 |
| wasabi_ | Contacts/Dates/TinyMail really excite me on that front. | 19:28 |
| tko | make check anyone? =) | 19:29 |
| wasabi_ | Not just for portable usage. | 19:29 |
| wasabi_ | I'd love a 3 seperate program approach to email/cal/contacts. | 19:29 |
| wasabi_ | As long as clicking on an invitation in the email program still properly adds it to the cal. ;) | 19:29 |
| tko | considering the complete lack of tests, it's sometimes amazing things work at all :) | 19:29 |
| MDK | tko: ximian monkeys didn't need tests | 19:31 |
| tko | the mail/calendar integration could be much better, even in evo.. simple thing like seeing the calendar to see how an invitation fits in the day is oddly complicated | 19:31 |
| wasabi_ | yeah | 19:32 |
| tko | or just handling the To/Cc fields. ugh | 19:32 |
| wasabi_ | evo pops up dumb error messages too often too | 19:33 |
| wasabi_ | LIke, I have to use a VPN to get to my work email, so if I turn the VPN off, it effectily crashes. | 19:33 |
| wasabi_ | A never endless loop of "unable to contact server" | 19:34 |
| wasabi_ | "oh, can't connect? Offline mode on!" | 19:34 |
| * suihkulokki takes a sip of google kool-aid and wishes for gmail/gcalendar appliance with syncml for companies | 19:34 | |
| koen | offline mode? let's sync first! | 19:35 |
| wasabi_ | So what is syncml anyways? | 19:35 |
| koen | wasabi_: the openmoko dudes are going to hook funambol to eds-dbus | 19:35 |
| tko | offline is a good idea, too bad it works only selectively | 19:35 |
| wasabi_ | Yeah. | 19:36 |
| suihkulokki | wasabi_: a open protocol for syncing devices | 19:36 |
| wasabi_ | Also, it should be automatic. | 19:36 |
| wasabi_ | I don't want an offline mode button. | 19:36 |
| wasabi_ | It should just shut up when it can't reach the server. | 19:36 |
| wasabi_ | And realize when I plug back in that it can. Grey out the folder or something automatically. | 19:36 |
| * Jaffa wants to be able to select offline manually when the connection's laggy and then automatically sync (if possible) every 10 minutes or something. | 19:36 | |
| wasabi_ | suihkulokki: A markup language or protocol? | 19:36 |
| wasabi_ | Evo's IMAP also usea one worker thread. | 19:37 |
| wasabi_ | Which is very very poor. | 19:37 |
| Jaffa | Latest versions of Outlook seem to have buggered that up: if you're in offline mode with replication, mail in your outbox will generate a delivery failure if the sync fails. | 19:37 |
| koen | syncml is created by a marketing dude that said "binary is cool, and xml is cool! Let's combine!!!" | 19:37 |
| * koen stabs wbxml | 19:37 | |
| suihkulokki | wbxml is quite funny yes | 19:37 |
| tko | koen, sounds like rhythmdb :) | 19:37 |
| * koen is so not going to google rhytmdb | 19:38 | |
| tko | best of the both worlds; compactness of text and readability of binary | 19:38 |
| wasabi_ | hah | 19:38 |
| tko | on-disk format for rhythmbox, also used for epiphany history (or was it bookmars) .. or both | 19:38 |
| suihkulokki | wbxml is effectively a custom compression scheme for xml data | 19:39 |
| wasabi_ | does it offer anything over gzip? :0 | 19:40 |
| koen | wasabi_: marketing powers | 19:40 |
| wasabi_ | i mean, maybe seeking or something | 19:40 |
| wasabi_ | there's a bit you could do with it | 19:40 |
| suihkulokki | Wireless binary XML | 19:40 |
| wasabi_ | some sort of "this tag is known to start and end here" | 19:40 |
| wasabi_ | so only decompress those areas. | 19:41 |
| tko | IIRC SAX stream could be easily compressed a whole lot better than the text representation, wbxml might be doing that | 19:41 |
| koen | suihkulokki: it was designed by intel? | 19:41 |
| wasabi_ | Yeah | 19:41 |
| wasabi_ | wbxml might be directly readable without decompression | 19:41 |
| wasabi_ | which would be a benefit. | 19:41 |
| wasabi_ | assing each eleemnt in your schema a set of integers, the compressed stream becomes a stream of those integers, attribute values get the same treatment. | 19:42 |
| wasabi_ | etc | 19:42 |
| tko | ah indeed, with schema you don't even need to transfer the dictionary | 19:44 |
| suihkulokki | I think wbxml does not even offer compression rate of gzip. but wbxml is faster to parse and needs less lines of code to implement. | 19:44 |
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| wasabi_ | i'd assume if they cared enough to write such a format, they had a reason. | 19:48 |
| wasabi_ | Which might be a bad assumption. ;) | 19:48 |
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| tko | I'm sure it makes nice marketing material. "our products are XYZ compliant" etc :) | 19:52 |
| tko | "leveraging industry standards" is another phrase that comes to mind | 19:52 |
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| MDK | idea no. 43432 on how to conquer the world: | 20:08 |
| MDK | 1) register salmiaki.com domain | 20:09 |
| MDK | 2) sell it to jenkki | 20:09 |
| MDK | 3) earn millions | 20:09 |
| minra | what is the law wrt namesquatting ? | 20:09 |
| MDK | judging be the amount of "parked" domains there is no law | 20:11 |
| suihkulokki | trademark owned can sue you | 20:13 |
| MDK | salmiaki is not a trademark, is it? | 20:13 |
| suihkulokki | no, and it's salmiakki =) | 20:14 |
| MDK | crap | 20:14 |
| MDK | so much for idea 43432 | 20:14 |
| tko | "the square root of terrorist intent" -- would that be imaginary or something? | 20:16 |
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| Tak | I dunno, what's the sqrt of an imaginary number? | 20:21 |
| Tak | minra: dgen is a no-go so far | 20:21 |
| minra | did you look at it? i just committed myself to 1400 dollars costs to get internet at home | 20:22 |
| minra | thank you, socialist germany | 20:22 |
| minra | so ill get scratchbox running whenever i get access | 20:25 |
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| MDK | minra: 1400$ ? | 20:27 |
| MDK | sounds rather like a wolf-capitalism | 20:28 |
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| minra | no, last mile terrrorism. the shortest contract you get for a dsl connection is 2 years, and the best deal for 6000/586 + telephone is 45 eu/month | 20:34 |
| minra | yaay barmaid gave me a free beer | 20:34 |
| * minra frolics | 20:34 | |
| MDK | 45eu/month? | 20:35 |
| MDK | how fast is that | 20:35 |
| MDK | ? | 20:35 |
| minra | 6000kb/s down, 586 up | 20:35 |
| MDK | exactly same price here | 20:36 |
| MDK | for a cable connection though | 20:36 |
| minra | yeah, i just hate being stuck with them for two years | 20:37 |
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| oskude | hi, how long does the 770 need to boot ? or can it "hibernate" ? | 20:44 |
| tigert | hrm | 20:47 |
| minra | i have put the cover on my 770 when going to bed and woken up with good battery power | 20:48 |
| minra | i am guessing about 45 seconds | 20:49 |
| tigert | oskude: it has pretty aggressive powermanagement, so it does "sleep" | 20:49 |
| tigert | the boot is like ~20-30 secs I guess | 20:49 |
| tigert | not very long | 20:49 |
| tigert | but it does sleep quite nicely without sucking much battery with the cover on | 20:49 |
| oskude | ok, thanks, and with the features i can live with 20~30 secs... (as my palmVx is getting old ;) | 20:50 |
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| oskude | hmm, i cant find any videos about the handwriting regocnition... is it that bad (joke;) ? can it learn your hadwriting or is it like on (old)palm that you have to learn how to write ? | 20:56 |
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| tigert | well. I dont personally use it | 21:05 |
| tigert | I guess it works | 21:05 |
| tigert | you can teach some stuff I think | 21:05 |
| tigert | I use the thumb keyboard myself, it's fitting my use very well | 21:05 |
| tigert | just press a text entry with your flat thumb | 21:06 |
| oskude | hmm, that sounds faster that handwriting... | 21:06 |
| oskude | *than | 21:06 |
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| oskude | but there are ofcourse externals keyboards... i just started to wonder cause none of the videos ive seen in youtube use handwrite regocnition... | 21:07 |
| MDK | thumbwriting rocks | 21:08 |
| minra | it does? better than pen and virtual kbd? | 21:09 |
| MDK | handwriting recognition, I must admit, is pretty bad | 21:09 |
| MDK | compared to palm ie. | 21:09 |
| wasabi_ | So anybody aware of any VPN interface for the 770? | 21:09 |
| MDK | minra: yes, you can actually irc with that | 21:09 |
| wasabi_ | Specifically need PPTP. | 21:09 |
| minra | i have the thinkoutside stowaway kbd and now after a few weeks I am really fast on it... not programming tho | 21:09 |
| oskude | i would think pen and virtual kdb is the slowest (atleast for me on palm) | 21:09 |
| minra | wow mdk.... | 21:09 |
| minra | wasabi_, porting freeswan or pptp stuff shouldnt be too hard... but it might be slow | 21:10 |
| oskude | where can i find more about this "thumb writing" ? | 21:10 |
| minra | i think it is in the manual... and see system preferences for input | 21:11 |
| MDK | wasabi_: I'm using the scriptkiller's VPN/cisco and works like a charm | 21:11 |
| MDK | oskude: you push screen with a finger | 21:11 |
| * oskude doesnt have 770 (yet) :) still looking... | 21:12 | |
| MDK | oskude: and the screen switches to a large keyboard to be used with two thumbs | 21:12 |
| oskude | any screens or videos ? | 21:12 |
| oskude | of how it works/looks like | 21:12 |
| minra | like a big big keyboard | 21:12 |
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| MDK | oskude: if you go to www.nokia.com/770 | 21:13 |
| MDK | and than "spotlight" | 21:13 |
| kender | hello | 21:13 |
| oskude | MDK: roger | 21:13 |
| MDK | there is thumb keyboard in one of the images | 21:13 |
| minra | nothing could compare to the bluetooth keyboard solution. it is amaying | 21:13 |
| MDK | oskude: the "three input methods" section | 21:14 |
| MDK | oskude: though, it's a typicall marketing-crap picture | 21:14 |
| oskude | MDK: yup, saw it. seems you can write with it pretty fast | 21:14 |
| MDK | oskude: in a sense, it doesn't have much to do with reality | 21:14 |
| MDK | oskude: normally you'd hold it with two hands and use just your thumbs to type | 21:15 |
| MDK | oskude: I mean, the picture doesn't really show the real use case | 21:15 |
| MDK | oskude: I'm not using it right now, but I irc sometimes with it | 21:16 |
| oskude | MDK: yup, but sounds better than pen+virtual kbd | 21:16 |
| MDK | me & tigert, we did a small test | 21:16 |
| MDK | we started to type some "lorem ipsum" crap | 21:16 |
| MDK | him - on 770 with thumb keyboard | 21:16 |
| MDK | me - on mylo with hw keyboard | 21:16 |
| MDK | (very small and crappy btw) | 21:16 |
| MDK | and he was faster | 21:17 |
| oskude | oh! | 21:17 |
| minra | what is mylo? | 21:17 |
| oskude | sounds nice | 21:17 |
| MDK | minra: sony mylo | 21:17 |
| tigert | I irc with the thumb keyboard, its nice | 21:18 |
| tigert | it takes a bit to get used to, | 21:18 |
| tigert | and it helps to turn up touchscreen tap sounds | 21:18 |
| tigert | and to use a theme with good contrast for the pressed in buttons | 21:18 |
| tigert | so you get good feedback | 21:18 |
| tigert | but its pretty nice | 21:18 |
| tko | MDK, is the new error enum called HildonDateTimeEditorError -- the 'Editor' part would be inconsistent with the value naming (looking at the audit tool) | 21:19 |
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| MDK | tko: hmm hmm hmm | 21:19 |
| MDK | it's like [Date|Time]Editor | 21:20 |
| oskude | i allready wanted to buy 770, but i didnt get the money together and bought a "mistake"... (well, 350e is not that much, but it was for me) | 21:20 |
| tko | the comments are not that good in many places :-/ | 21:20 |
| MDK | but what do you suggest? Just HildonDateTimeError? | 21:20 |
| tko | MDK, yep | 21:20 |
| minra | what mistake? | 21:21 |
| oskude | its called gp2x :/ | 21:21 |
| MDK | tko: did we anounce the audit tool actually? | 21:21 |
| tko | MDK, nope, but luc said it's "real soon now" *cough* :) | 21:22 |
| MDK | ugh | 21:22 |
| MDK | murray is sending patches against stuff that's already fixed | 21:23 |
| tko | MDK, oh, I think it's a bit confusing to say 'infoprints are deprecated' when meaning just one specific function | 21:24 |
| tko | ouch | 21:24 |
| MDK | tko: there are lots of gtk_inforprint functions | 21:24 |
| MDK | the "gtk_infoprint" match will catch them all | 21:25 |
| tko | MDK, the message refers to just 'infoprint' which is more like a concept | 21:25 |
| MDK | so, in a sense, this is about gtk_infoprint_whatever | 21:25 |
| MDK | tko: besides, I lost control over the stuff displayed there | 21:25 |
| MDK | I mean, some stuff has been changed by luc | 21:26 |
| tko | MDK, I know but that's not what is being said :-/ | 21:26 |
| tko | :) | 21:26 |
| MDK | anyways, infprints are kinda deprecated | 21:27 |
| MDK | though, I'm pretty sure I put something about using hildon_banner instead | 21:27 |
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| tko | yes, HildonBanner was mentioned | 21:28 |
| MDK | tko: what about our custom gtk widgets with other-than-default values? HildonButton? | 21:30 |
| tko | "No decision yet" :) | 21:33 |
| oskude | heh :) http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMkWwJqPCOQ | 21:41 |
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| minra | are any of you doing telephony with the 770? i just got a voip account with a german provider, might be possible to run asterisk with this | 22:18 |
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| keesj | minra, nice question | 22:41 |
| minra | i have to quit drinking to do anything productive... but that is on my list | 22:47 |
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| user_ | any xchat for scirroco | 22:50 |
| user_ | irssi hard to use on 770 | 22:51 |
| minra | i am on mistral using xchat | 22:53 |
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| user_ | ok out of 2 verions of xchat they arw all laid out wrong | 23:00 |
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| tigert | minra: I use googletalk voip somewhat | 23:37 |
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| tko | "For Bruce Schneier, SHA-1 is merely a compression algorithm." | 23:42 |
| minra | i am one of those people who may not talk about encryption. | 23:48 |
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