| Veggen | tbb: Is DISPLAY set there? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| |tbb| | export PATH DISPLAY LESS TERM PS1 PS2 | 00:00 |
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| Veggen | oh, that's not really setting it. | 00:01 |
| |tbb| | so do i have to set it there? | 00:03 |
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| minra | blah, another crash.. | 00:04 |
| Veggen | tbb: No, ssh should do it for you. You'll just need to make sure logging in doesn't overwrite it :) | 00:05 |
| Veggen | but you could try "export DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 before running the X-command. | 00:05 |
| Veggen | just to check if that might be the problem. | 00:06 |
| Veggen | what does netstat -an | grep LISTEN | grep 60 say, btw? | 00:06 |
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| |tbb| | tcp 0 0 0.0.0.0:6000 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN | 00:08 |
| |tbb| | start-sshd | 00:09 |
| |tbb| | kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.0 | 00:09 |
| |tbb| | after i run the export command | 00:10 |
| Veggen | oh, hum. does the box run X locallly, or no X? | 00:10 |
| |tbb| | ? | 00:10 |
| Veggen | what does that netstat command say if you exit out of the ssh, and ssh back in without -X argument ? | 00:10 |
| Veggen | you ssh from the 770, right? Does the 770 have an xauth command? | 00:12 |
| |tbb| | tcp 0 0 127.0.0.1:6010 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN | 00:12 |
| |tbb| | first right! second no it doesnt have | 00:13 |
| Veggen | oh. that should be the X-forwarding. try with the export DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 and then start-sshd ? | 00:13 |
| minra | man, the xchat package has some serious user interface issues.... for example, after using tab to complete a nicknamee, you have to re-click the text input field to continue typing | 00:14 |
| |tbb| | slax ~ # export DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 | 00:14 |
| |tbb| | slax ~ # start-sshd | 00:14 |
| |tbb| | kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.0 | 00:14 |
| Veggen | tbb: think you might need xbase-clients on the 770. | 00:15 |
| |tbb| | this msg appear on the server | 00:16 |
| |tbb| | i started the sshd on the server not on the 770 | 00:16 |
| Veggen | tbb: sure. but xauth on the client is supposed to do magic with xauth on the server. | 00:16 |
| Veggen | xauth on the client sends some security info to xauth on the server. | 00:17 |
| |tbb| | so what i have to do | 00:17 |
| Veggen | try installing xbase-clients on the 770? | 00:17 |
| |tbb| | where to find them? | 00:17 |
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| |tbb| | i wonder no one got same problems like me | 00:18 |
| Veggen | what does the start-sshd actually do? | 00:23 |
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| |tbb| | same what i posted before | 00:29 |
| |tbb| | kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.0 | 00:30 |
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| minra | i hope i will someday be as fit as you guys | 00:34 |
| minra | do you people use unionfs or something to spread the root filesystem onto a rs-mmc card? | 00:34 |
| Tak | I don't have any need to do so | 00:35 |
| minra | is there a website that describes what the 870 will do? | 00:40 |
| bhima | minra: Probably. Do you have access to Nokia's internal, private developer pages? | 00:42 |
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| w30 | I installed xterminal and the ncurses dependencys and I have a backspace problem in xterm (not Nokia). the backspace key gives me a faint square as the cursor advances even though it actually backspacing in the program. You have to count the faint squares and subtract to know what is going on. Can someone help on this problem? | 00:51 |
| Veggen | |tbb| ok, good :) | 00:52 |
| |tbb| | very good | 00:52 |
| minra | bhima i have a valid serial number... never used it | 00:56 |
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| arj | hi | 01:38 |
| arj | what IM program is everyone using? :) | 01:39 |
| pokute_ | irssi here. | 01:39 |
| arj | I meant for msn/jabber | 01:39 |
| pokute_ | Everyone doesn't use msn/jabber | 01:39 |
| |tbb| | g00d nite all | 01:39 |
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| arj | :) | 01:40 |
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| timeless | is the 770's chat app not compatible? | 01:41 |
| arj | it only understands jabber as far as I know? | 01:41 |
| arj | I have another question: can anyone recommend a good calendar program? | 01:43 |
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| timeless | calendar.google.com | 01:45 |
| timeless | oh, did you mean one that works on the 770? | 01:45 |
| arj | yeah | 01:45 |
| arj | I use google's too | 01:45 |
| arj | but it doesn't work all that well on 770 ;-) | 01:46 |
| timeless | iirc it works in minimo | 01:47 |
| timeless | i suppose i could roll dice and find out | 01:47 |
| arj | I tried | 01:47 |
| arj | it works ok, but one can't enter new appoinments into it | 01:48 |
| arj | and minimo is really buggy :( | 01:48 |
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| arj | one more, is the maemo 2.1 release only meant for developers or is the idea that an end user should install it also? | 01:52 |
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| vanksi | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2341 i have that same exact error except i'm using Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.1_i386-rootstrap.tgz | 02:04 |
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| vanksi | any ideas how to fix it? | 02:06 |
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| RocketHPC | So, everyone eagerly awaiting Canola? | 02:52 |
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| pokute_ | Hmm... Herring... | 03:58 |
| RocketHPC | Hmm... Canola | 04:08 |
| RocketHPC | Lots of big news today | 04:08 |
| RocketHPC | Looks like Nokia is getting serious about finishing off the software environment for the 870 | 04:09 |
| timeless | how so? | 04:09 |
| RocketHPC | Well, isn't Herring a forked stabilization branch which is intended as the basis for Maemo 3.0? | 04:10 |
| timeless | i dunno :) | 04:10 |
| RocketHPC | It is supposed to be feature complete now, so it is "just" a matter of bug squashing/polishing at this point | 04:11 |
| RocketHPC | With the latest leaked pictures, the 870 is looking pretty close to final hardware | 04:12 |
| RocketHPC | You have seen the pictures, right? | 04:13 |
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| RocketHPC | http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/28/a-few-more-spy-shots-of-nokias-870-internet-tablet/ | 04:13 |
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| pokute_ | hmm, hadn't seen these. | 04:21 |
| RocketHPC | It sure has the look of production hardware | 04:22 |
| pokute_ | rumours say 180megs of mem. good good. | 04:22 |
| timeless | am i the only one who gets confused when people talk about 'memory'? | 04:22 |
| RocketHPC | I think it probably means 64 MB of flash and 128 MB of ram | 04:23 |
| RocketHPC | or something like that | 04:23 |
| RocketHPC | They should definitely discriminate between storage and execution memory | 04:23 |
| timeless | and what does beta hardware look like? | 04:23 |
| timeless | must be made by a cell phone vendor? | 04:24 |
| pokute_ | beta hardware? | 04:24 |
| pokute_ | Well, there haven't been any images of the development boards that I've seen, but there are those elusive white 770s. :-) | 04:25 |
| timeless | well, what's the opposite of production hardware? | 04:25 |
| RocketHPC | prototype | 04:25 |
| RocketHPC | All the recent pictures I have seen have been self-same | 04:25 |
| pokute_ | For some reason, I have a feeling that apart from devboards, the protos look a LOT like production units. | 04:26 |
| RocketHPC | It is a subjective thing, but it looks like they have dotted all the i's and crossd all the t's | 04:26 |
| RocketHPC | It also closely matches their fcc submission | 04:28 |
| pokute_ | http://synthesize.us/Maemo/HTTP_User-Agents <- oooh... interesting. :-) | 04:29 |
| RocketHPC | Yeah, info about both the processor and web browser | 04:31 |
| RocketHPC | The FPU in the arm6 should allow for a lot of applications to be ported that couldn't be before | 04:32 |
| pokute_ | FPU - sounds like they're spoiling us. :-) | 04:33 |
| RocketHPC | I am excited, it seems like they have integrated a lot of nice touches into the new design | 04:34 |
| pokute_ | Too bad it will probably be a long while until I can buy one... | 04:35 |
| RocketHPC | I really like the new integrated stand and curved back | 04:35 |
| pokute_ | As it's usual for Nokia to announce stuff 3-6 months before they release it. | 04:35 |
| pokute_ | And they haven't even announced this one. | 04:35 |
| RocketHPC | Well, the leaks have come from multiple sources inside the company | 04:36 |
| RocketHPC | I wouldn't be surprised if this is their quasi-official way of trying to produce buzz | 04:36 |
| timeless | how can you tell? | 04:36 |
| pokute_ | I was sort of surprised on how long it took for 770 info to start leaking into net. :-) | 04:36 |
| RocketHPC | how can I tell what? | 04:37 |
| timeless | that there's more than one leak source | 04:37 |
| RocketHPC | Well, it may be one leak source posting under different pseudonyms, I guess | 04:38 |
| RocketHPC | but the pictures definitely came from different cameras/photographers | 04:38 |
| timeless | where the pictures encoded w/ camera ids? | 04:39 |
| timeless | s/h// | 04:39 |
| RocketHPC | exif | 04:39 |
| RocketHPC | The first pictures were taken with a cameraphone by someone that obviously didn't know beans about photography | 04:39 |
| timeless | interesting.. | 04:39 |
| RocketHPC | The recent pictures are from a real digicam and have much better composition, lighting, etc. | 04:40 |
| pokute_ | RocketHPC: When leaking pictures, it doesn't matter much what the quality is. :-) | 04:40 |
| timeless | does nokia traditionally fire leakers? | 04:40 |
| RocketHPC | No clue | 04:41 |
| RocketHPC | I think "leaks" have become a quasi-official way for many companies to create buzz | 04:41 |
| RocketHPC | A lot of companies have been caught at astro-turfing | 04:41 |
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| timeless | i thought the quasi-official way was to hire bloggers | 04:42 |
| timeless | astro-turfing ? | 04:42 |
| RocketHPC | astroturf = artificial grass roots marketing | 04:42 |
| pokute_ | Heh. First time I hear the long explanation, tho I was able to sort of figure out what it meant earlier. :-) | 04:43 |
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| Milhouse | as for the 3-4 month release estimate, where a phone is concerned it can be announced by nokia then take 3-4 months for the network operators to validate/test the phone... with the non-phone based "870" I hope it can be brought to market far more quickly... | 04:46 |
| pokute_ | 770 didn't go so well. :-) | 04:46 |
| Milhouse | first version :) | 04:47 |
| Milhouse | actually, was the 770 late? | 04:47 |
| Milhouse | i got mine in november 05 - when was it due (can't remember exactly, was it Q3 or Q4?) | 04:48 |
| pokute_ | "Shipping in the third quarter" <- announced on may | 04:48 |
| pokute_ | Started shipping on November 3rd. | 04:49 |
| Milhouse | yeah, so 1 month late/. | 04:49 |
| RocketHPC | I kinda like the way Apple does things - announcing a product on the date that it is ready to ship | 04:49 |
| RocketHPC | It must get them some impulse buyers that they wouldn't normally make a sale on if the product hit the streets 3 months after an announcement | 04:50 |
| RocketHPC | "Paper" launches really piss me off | 04:50 |
| Milhouse | i guess with the involvement of maemo and the open source community that would have been impossible for the 770, but mostly possible with the 870 assuming the changes are mostly to nokia maintained code | 04:50 |
| Milhouse | i am concerned the rumours about the 870 could result in the "osborne effect" | 04:50 |
| pokute_ | At least 770 wasn't a 7700 in release schedule. :-) | 04:50 |
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| timeless | osborne effect? | 04:51 |
| pokute_ | 7710, I mean | 04:51 |
| timeless | 7700? | 04:51 |
| timeless | 7710? | 04:51 |
| pokute_ | :-) | 04:51 |
| timeless | what are those? | 04:51 |
| Milhouse | osborne - pre announce a new product, everyone stops buying the existing product in anticipation leaving the manufacturer with vast quantities of unsold stock resulting in bankcruptcy | 04:52 |
| Tak | heh | 04:52 |
| Tak | I don't think unsold 770 stock wil bankrupt nokia | 04:52 |
| timeless | it sure won't help nokia | 04:52 |
| Milhouse | me neither, but pre announcing any new product probably has an adverse effect on sales of the current device' | 04:53 |
| pokute_ | Milhouse: It's not so bad with 770, as it might generate buzz with people to make new applications. | 04:53 |
| RocketHPC | They have apparently been ramping up advertising of the 770 too, which makes me suspect they are trying to clear inventory prior to any announcement | 04:53 |
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| Milhouse | true, and i doubt sales of the 770 have been stellar anyway! :) | 04:54 |
| timeless | why didn't you buy two? :| | 04:54 |
| Milhouse | i'm waiting for the 870 dude!!! | 04:54 |
| Milhouse | :) | 04:54 |
| timeless | you osborne... | 04:54 |
| Milhouse | new 0.16.8-1 minimo in the app manager | 04:56 |
| Milhouse | still no canola :( | 04:56 |
| pokute_ | Argh. Second time that I download a zipped up game trailer and it ends up being in quicktime format... | 04:56 |
| RocketHPC | Sounds like Antonio is really trying to fully hildonize Minimo in the near future | 04:58 |
| timeless | how can you tell? | 04:59 |
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| RocketHPC | It is on his todo list on his blog | 05:00 |
| meredydd | Hey | 05:00 |
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| meredydd | Just wondering, but I don't suppose anyone has got a nested X server running on the 770? | 05:01 |
| RocketHPC | http://tonikitoo.blogspot.com/ | 05:01 |
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| meredydd | Hildonising apps is a bit of a pain - it would be good if I could also just run some stuff "raw", with icewm or something. | 05:02 |
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| RocketHPC | Yeah, I think that would be desireable too | 05:02 |
| RocketHPC | Right now there is just too much dev work to hildonize every app that people want to run | 05:03 |
| meredydd | I was quite impressed by the 770, and I've liked the cachet of a "shell in my pocket" | 05:03 |
| meredydd | but the apps available are...yeah. | 05:03 |
| meredydd | This is why there are two things I want to do - build a working J2ME runtime, so we can use all those apps written for mobile phones | 05:03 |
| meredydd | and get a working nested X server, so we can use all those apps written for Plain Old X. | 05:03 |
| Milhouse | nokia don't seem too keen on getting a JVM up and running unfortunately | 05:04 |
| meredydd | Yeah, it's a pain. I have a feeling it may be to do with a desire to Do It Right, and use the Jazelle | 05:04 |
| timeless | what leads you to that conclusion? | 05:04 |
| Milhouse | we would need their involvement to utilise the jazelle extensions | 05:04 |
| meredydd | which, from what I gather, is deeply nontrivial with Linux | 05:04 |
| Milhouse | nokia pretty much stated that on the dev mailing list | 05:05 |
| RocketHPC | I don't think they have the dev time to make the 770 everything to all people | 05:05 |
| meredydd | yep. | 05:05 |
| Milhouse | deeply non-documented, more like | 05:05 |
| RocketHPC | It would be nice to have Java and better Flash | 05:05 |
| timeless | what else is on your 'would be nice' list? | 05:05 |
| meredydd | I still think, though, that it's making a strategic mistake to wall users in with this idiosyncratic UI paradigm | 05:05 |
| RocketHPC | my main two pet peaves are official bluetooth keyboard support and a better email application | 05:06 |
| meredydd | As far as I can see, there are only three ways out of this: | 05:06 |
| RocketHPC | It is a Internet Tablet for Christ's sake. It should do email WELL | 05:06 |
| Milhouse | depends on who nokia see as their main end user - geeks, or casual mobile web users? | 05:06 |
| pokute_ | RocketHPC: Have you followed tinymail? | 05:06 |
| meredydd | 1) Build enough apps yourself, within N or the dev community, to make it worthwhile as an independent platform | 05:06 |
| Milhouse | i would agree that better bluetooth support from nokia as standard is required | 05:07 |
| meredydd | Milhouse: Well, if it's geeks, we need more software, and if it's end users, we'd need little things like an email client that doesn't provoke vomiting in my non-techie friends :P | 05:07 |
| timeless | gmail works well for me on my 770 ... | 05:07 |
| Milhouse | would tend to agree meredydd, but do nokia have the resources to satisfy both camps? | 05:07 |
| RocketHPC | No, tell me about tinymail, pokute | 05:07 |
| meredydd | Really, timeless? Which firmware build are you on? Mine had nasty problems with the Javascript, and needed the URL tweaking to explicitly state ?ui=html before it would work. | 05:08 |
| meredydd | Milhouse: That's the question. | 05:08 |
| meredydd | Milhouse: which is why I reckon option #1 isn't sensible | 05:08 |
| Milhouse | canola is being uploaded to the repository... | 05:08 |
| timeless | my 770 came in a box just like yours | 05:08 |
| timeless | i've never needed to use a url hack, and the javascript version does work | 05:09 |
| RocketHPC | Cool, can't wait to try Canola out | 05:09 |
| meredydd | #2) Somehow make it easier to bring in existing, free, windowed apps to fill the gap. | 05:09 |
| timeless | i've actually found that i usually don't really need the js version and am actually happier using the html version, but i can ask gmail to switch me | 05:09 |
| Milhouse | without hildon, wouldn't this make the 770 platform bog standard debian? | 05:09 |
| RocketHPC | I have been using VNC to go into my Ubuntu box whenever I need to run any "real" apps | 05:09 |
| meredydd | timeless: Neat. Perhaps it's just my Personal Gadget Malfunction Field at work again. Doesn't matter if it's fresh out of the box, electronics just get uppity around me. I have a feeling they're whispering to each other, "Oh, so he thinks he knows something about us, does he?" | 05:10 |
| timeless | i suspect my malfunction field is much stronger than yours | 05:10 |
| timeless | anyway, i really didn't have problems using gmail w/ os2006 or os2006.1 | 05:10 |
| meredydd | #3) Somehow make it easier to bring in existing, free applications which are already built with a one-screen-at-a-time paradigm | 05:11 |
| meredydd | (which, as far as I know, is only J2ME applications) | 05:11 |
| pokute_ | RocketHPC: http://tonikitoo.blogspot.com/ <- Philip is working on a better email framework. :-) | 05:12 |
| Milhouse | is hildon open source under gpl or could this be nokias way of controlling the platform? that is, no other manufacturer can use the hildon framework on another device and therefore gain the benefit of maemo development for free | 05:12 |
| meredydd | Hmm, timeless. I shall have to try again, then. Possibly do another reflash, see if I can tickle it into working again. | 05:12 |
| pokute_ | And he has hinted on stuff that leads to believe that tinymail's framework is going to be used in 770 email client someday. | 05:12 |
| Milhouse | canola is ready... | 05:13 |
| pokute_ | wee?! | 05:13 |
| Milhouse | oh dear | 05:17 |
| Milhouse | canola not installable, missing libsoup | 05:17 |
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| RocketHPC | I get the same thing, Milhouse | 05:34 |
| Milhouse | Have left a comment on the "handful" blog | 05:35 |
| Milhouse | strange that the installation instructions are biased towards scirocco (is that herring or sardine?) as I've had no success upgrading to either on the 770 itself | 05:36 |
| pokute_ | scirocco is maemo 2.1 | 05:37 |
| pokute_ | mistral is 2.0 | 05:37 |
| Milhouse | is 2.1 aka herring? | 05:38 |
| Milhouse | too many code names!! | 05:38 |
| RocketHPC | I think they were running late on their release time and released without really testing it | 05:39 |
| RocketHPC | They are probably all running the bleeding edge releases and didn't bother to test it on a 770 running a production OS | 05:39 |
| mat | technically, isn't scirocco supposed to be the latest production os? (i.e., the latest available stable firmware ?) | 05:40 |
| Tak | `apt-get install libsoup2.2-8=2.2.92-0ubuntu1osso4indt1`fixes it | 05:40 |
| mat | I was about to try to install it myself, but I'm still running the old 2.0 firmware | 05:40 |
| pokute_ | if I've understood right, herring should be 3.0 with feature freeze. sardine 3.0+ | 05:40 |
| Tak | I have mistral repos and it's working fine @ mat | 05:40 |
| timeless | what is this numbered firmware? i thought that nokia was shipping software | 05:41 |
| pokute_ | Anyone recovered from the shock? :-) | 05:47 |
| pokute_ | Heh. Sleep for me now. Good luck with getting it to work. | 05:49 |
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| Tak | awesome | 05:53 |
| Tak | it crashes | 05:53 |
| pokute_ | :-) | 05:53 |
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| Milhouse | has anyone suceeded upgrading os 2006-v2 to either sardine or herring on the device itself (using the dual boot and upgrade instructions)? i havent, and have tried many times... :( | 05:56 |
| Milhouse | canola packages being regerenerated... think i'll hang back this time! | 05:57 |
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| timeless | v2? | 06:02 |
| Tak | I haven't tried @ sardine/herring | 06:02 |
| Milhouse | v2 == second release of 2006 (november?) | 06:03 |
| timeless | is there a v0? | 06:04 |
| timeless | (Sorry, i'm not very good at counting) | 06:04 |
| Milhouse | firmware versions are usually 1-based :) | 06:05 |
| timeless | i still don't understand this firmware stuff | 06:05 |
| timeless | i never considered DOS to be firmware, nor WindowsNT | 06:06 |
| timeless | i think NT was 3 based | 06:06 |
| timeless | or zero, maybe 1, depends on what you mean by based | 06:06 |
| Milhouse | firmware is a cross between software and hardware | 06:07 |
| * Tak waits for "Configuring Local Database" | 06:07 | |
| Milhouse | because the os is flashed into hardware (flash memory) its called firmware | 06:08 |
| Milhouse | all microsoft products are 3 based - thats when they become usable... :) | 06:08 |
| Milhouse | still getting libsoup errors on canola - guess the repository hasn't updated yet? | 06:09 |
| timeless | so if wince ran in flash memory it'd be 1 based? | 06:09 |
| Milhouse | that drek probably needs to be about 7 based using my above theory | 06:10 |
| timeless | and what if you didn't need to flash your compaq ipaq in order to update its os? | 06:10 |
| timeless | e.g. if you could i dunno, netcat an iso image into flash | 06:11 |
| Milhouse | wouldn't you still be flashing it? | 06:11 |
| timeless | depends on your definition | 06:11 |
| Milhouse | usb, netcat, wifi... all just sources to obtain the image that gets flashed into the memory on the device | 06:11 |
| timeless | in my mind, flashing is some process where you use an external system to fry the device | 06:12 |
| timeless | but i'm not a hardware person | 06:12 |
| timeless | nor am i a phone person | 06:12 |
| Milhouse | if the os runs from flash it has to be flashed into the memory at some point | 06:12 |
| timeless | but if i make a change as an end user and am not using special hard, is that flashing? | 06:12 |
| timeless | e.g. if i change the theme of my device to the alternate theme | 06:12 |
| timeless | am i flashing? | 06:12 |
| Milhouse | that said, i think you can upload the 770 firmware/software without flashing the memory... | 06:12 |
| Milhouse | probably not | 06:13 |
| timeless | i can replace most apps using application installer | 06:13 |
| timeless | and i really find it objectionable for that to be called flashing | 06:13 |
| timeless | but i'm a strange person who doesn't know a thing about hardware | 06:13 |
| Milhouse | some parts of the filesystem are using the flash memory, so you are updating flash memory but that isn't "flashing" in the sense you are updating the OS | 06:13 |
| timeless | the entire file system is flash memory | 06:14 |
| timeless | the device only has ram, flash, and mmc's | 06:14 |
| Milhouse | whenever you write to the MMC card you are updating flash memory, but no that isn't flashing either | 06:14 |
| Milhouse | i think most would agree that "flashing" applies to updates of the OS only | 06:15 |
| timeless | what's part of the os? | 06:16 |
| timeless | if i replace the default theme using application installer, is that flashing? | 06:16 |
| timeless | is that part of the os? | 06:16 |
| timeless | imo phone metaphors are really darn stupid when the device isn't a phone | 06:16 |
| Milhouse | theme - no | 06:17 |
| timeless | web browser? | 06:18 |
| Milhouse | firmware is used in the context of devices that run embedded operating systems | 06:18 |
| Milhouse | web browser - no | 06:18 |
| timeless | glibc? | 06:18 |
| Milhouse | only the os which is supplied as an image you download from nokia and transfer to the device using the flasher utility | 06:18 |
| timeless | but the thing that comes from nokia is more than just a kernel | 06:19 |
| Milhouse | anything other than the image doesn't constiute flashing | 06:19 |
| timeless | and most things that are on the image could be manually installed later | 06:19 |
| Milhouse | yes it is - it consists of about 5 different components that together form the operating system | 06:19 |
| Tak | the kernel is updated via flashing as well | 06:19 |
| timeless | what about updating the xserver? | 06:19 |
| Milhouse | since you don't update that with the flasher utility, it doesn't fall into the flashing category | 06:20 |
| timeless | (that's actually the only risky one i've mentioned so far, since on average there's some lame integration between kernel drivers and xservers. e.g. nvidia's opensolaris driver includes a kernel module) | 06:20 |
| timeless | so supposing nokia released an image that contained nothing different in the section that had to be flashed as compared to the previous image | 06:22 |
| timeless | would you still call that a new firmware version? | 06:22 |
| Milhouse | wouldn't that be pointless on the part of nokia? that would be an identical image to the previous version... | 06:24 |
| timeless | suppose they fixed the web browser, or the theme, or a localization, or any of the things that you said aren't really part of the flashing section | 06:24 |
| Milhouse | if nothing in the new image is different to the previous image, it's identical to the previous image and not a new image :) | 06:24 |
| timeless | believe me, most bugs aren't in the kernel | 06:24 |
| Milhouse | web browser, as it is supplied, does exist in the image | 06:25 |
| Milhouse | but could be updated using apt-getg | 06:25 |
| timeless | yes it does | 06:25 |
| timeless | i'd imagine so | 06:25 |
| Milhouse | so in theory some of the standard apps could be updated without reflashing | 06:25 |
| timeless | now you understand my question, i hope | 06:26 |
| timeless | at what point is it still a "firmware" update, if it doesn't actually change anything that's really firmware? | 06:26 |
| Milhouse | i do, it's a bit of a grey area and firmware isn't a precise definition when the firmware image contains applications :) | 06:26 |
| Tak | ah, working now | 06:28 |
| Milhouse | from wikipedia "In computing, firmware is software that is embedded in a hardware device. It is often provided on flash ROMs or as a binary image file that can be uploaded onto existing hardware by a user". I'm happy with that definition. | 06:29 |
| Milhouse | thanks tak - will tray again | 06:29 |
| Milhouse | still no joy here, still nissing dependecies | 06:30 |
| Milhouse | missing | 06:30 |
| timeless | *shrug* i wouldn't call a game i download to my mobile phone firmware | 06:30 |
| Milhouse | am confused whether the repositories have been updated or not - suspect not | 06:30 |
| Milhouse | thats the grey area bit i guess | 06:31 |
| Milhouse | firmware relates more to the operating system rather than applications | 06:31 |
| timeless | the idea behind firmware was that it was stuff that wasn't easily changed | 06:31 |
| Milhouse | while a game may be supplied as one binary image installable by the user, it wouldn't in my opinion fall into the "flashing" or firmware category | 06:32 |
| timeless | if i can easily change my game, and obviously i can, then it doesn't belong in the category firmware | 06:32 |
| timeless | s/i can,/it can,/ | 06:32 |
| Milhouse | if you trash the installed game, will the phone still work? | 06:32 |
| timeless | i sure hope so :) | 06:33 |
| Milhouse | then the game isn't firmware | 06:33 |
| timeless | imagine wince on a flash, and imagine it had a startup folder, and imagine there was a program that when run would ask wince to shut down | 06:34 |
| timeless | does installing that program into the startup folder using explorer on the device constitute flashing since you've now made it not work? | 06:35 |
| Milhouse | that's called a bug | 06:35 |
| Milhouse | or denial of service | 06:35 |
| timeless | user initiated | 06:35 |
| Milhouse | but have you modified the installed firmware? | 06:35 |
| timeless | depends on where you draw the line on firmware | 06:35 |
| timeless | i dropped a file into a startup folder | 06:35 |
| Milhouse | no you havent, you've just configured the device in such a way to stop it working | 06:35 |
| Milhouse | in actuall fact it's doing exactly what it's told to do :) | 06:36 |
| timeless | so what if i remove all the startup items from linux | 06:36 |
| timeless | does that make anything and everything i remove optional and not firmware, since i'm now telling it to do less? :) | 06:36 |
| timeless | life was simpler when firmware was a bios, and everything else was software | 06:37 |
| timeless | anyway, my point is that i really don't think that on average there's much stuff in an update that deserves to be called firmware, and hopefully on average not a single bit of it deserves to be called firmware | 06:38 |
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| Milhouse | got to reboot for canola now - chat you later | 06:48 |
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| Tak | irc on gaim on 770? painful | 06:50 |
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| rev | hehe | 07:23 |
| * rev reboots for some olive oil | 07:23 | |
| Tak | lol | 07:24 |
| rev | g'night! | 07:24 |
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| WillySilly | Canola doesnt seem to work for me | 08:42 |
| Wiredless | please explain how so | 08:42 |
| WillySilly | It gets to the slash screen then quits | 08:43 |
| Wiredless | you have vertual memory enabled? | 08:44 |
| WillySilly | Yeah | 08:44 |
| Wiredless | 32 or more? | 08:44 |
| WillySilly | Yeah | 08:44 |
| Wiredless | ok | 08:45 |
| WillySilly | I have the max of 64 | 08:45 |
| Wiredless | k | 08:45 |
| WillySilly | I do get a glib warning though | 08:45 |
| WillySilly | canola[2337]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Unable to find a plugin to handle filter 'Controller/Container' | 08:45 |
| Wiredless | may want to post that in the comments | 08:45 |
| Wiredless | looks like i have to reflash just to install the damn thing | 08:46 |
| WillySilly | Ouch | 08:47 |
| Wiredless | yah no shit | 08:47 |
| Wiredless | sux | 08:47 |
| Wiredless | i got to beta test it | 08:48 |
| Wiredless | some reason if you had the beta there saying you need to reflash | 08:49 |
| dacc | wow, is canola released? | 08:51 |
| Wiredless | yes | 08:51 |
| dacc | cool | 08:51 |
| WillySilly | at least avahi is working | 08:51 |
| Wiredless | can be | 08:51 |
| dacc | will be fun for daap in internet cafes | 08:51 |
| Wiredless | yep yep | 08:51 |
| dacc | what's avahi? | 08:51 |
| Wiredless | mDNS resonder | 08:52 |
| Wiredless | responder | 08:52 |
| dacc | ooh, i see | 08:52 |
| WillySilly | avahi gives most of the functionality for daap | 08:52 |
| WillySilly | where you can see all the shares | 08:52 |
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| * dacc nods. | 08:53 | |
| dacc | aka bonjour | 08:53 |
| Wiredless | Avahi is a system which facilitates service discovery on a local network | 08:53 |
| Wiredless | yepper | 08:53 |
| Wiredless | zeroconfig | 08:53 |
| Wiredless | lets see what else | 08:53 |
| dacc | dns reserved bits =) | 08:53 |
| WillySilly | hmm, i got a broken canola install | 08:53 |
| Wiredless | did you reboot after install? | 08:53 |
| WillySilly | yeah | 08:54 |
| Wiredless | uninstalled and reinstalled? | 08:54 |
| Wiredless | what version? | 08:54 |
| Wiredless | 17 or 18? | 08:54 |
| WillySilly | 18 | 08:54 |
| Wiredless | shouldnt matter i guess | 08:54 |
| Whiz | :) that canola repository doesnt contain required version for clinc0-package or something.. I mean the repository says that it has version 1.0_28 but when apt-get requests it, server gives 404 :) | 08:54 |
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| Wiredless | you also need http://repository.maemo.org | 08:55 |
| disq | Whiz: add repository.maemo.org scirocco free non-free to your sources.list | 08:56 |
| disq | not mistral but scirocco | 08:56 |
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| Wiredless | isnt scirocco for newer kernals? | 08:56 |
| Whiz | disq, aa, thanks | 08:56 |
| Wiredless | mistral for 2006? | 08:57 |
| disq | the packaging is apparently not very well tested on a mistral system | 08:57 |
| Wiredless | yah im screwed | 08:57 |
| Wiredless | need to reflash i guess | 08:58 |
| Wiredless | damn i hate that | 08:58 |
| Wiredless | this is starting to smell of microsoft | 08:58 |
| disq | btw, recommend me a good upnp media server for win32 | 08:58 |
| WillySilly | I'll just flash my 770 to 2.1 | 08:58 |
| Wiredless | i know they have been using twonky | 08:58 |
| Wiredless | in house | 08:59 |
| disq | was using windows media connect but canola won't show avi files with that, probably wmc doesn't support reencoding or something | 08:59 |
| disq | tried tversity didn't like it. that simplecenter/philips stuff also sucks | 08:59 |
| Wiredless | iv tried 4 on OSX | 09:00 |
| Wiredless | didnt try video tho | 09:00 |
| disq | installing now | 09:01 |
| dacc | is there a new method for extending the root fs onto a memory card? | 09:04 |
| disq | twonky - video files - same thing | 09:05 |
| Wiredless | well was refering to twonky media server | 09:05 |
| Wiredless | audio/video/pictures | 09:05 |
| disq | my problem is with videos. the upnp server should support on the fly reencoding so i can play my xvid avi's on the 770 :) | 09:06 |
| Wiredless | my problem with twonky is no aac support | 09:07 |
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| WillySilly | the damn gui updater cant find my 770 | 09:28 |
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| Guard][an | morning | 09:52 |
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| Guardian | please, what's the difference between rootstrap and minimal-rootstrap, i mean for what purpose the minimal one should be used | 10:16 |
| timeless | anyone here ever consider reading help? | 10:18 |
| Guardian | am i the target of the question ? | 10:21 |
| timeless | sure | 10:22 |
| Guardian | i do read the maemos howto | 10:22 |
| timeless | have you ever clicked the globe next to the battery? | 10:22 |
| Guardian | and from what i read for now, minmal rootstrap has not been mentioned yet | 10:24 |
| timeless | i was thinking more about help than howtos | 10:25 |
| timeless | i've read the howtos | 10:25 |
| timeless | but i know that what i'm curious about isn't there | 10:26 |
| timeless | i'm wondering if it's obvious or described in help | 10:26 |
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| winkle | how do does the sharing in canola work? | 10:32 |
| winkle | can I access anything from the network out of the box? | 10:32 |
| koen | winkle: upnp | 10:33 |
| koen | has canola been released yet? | 10:33 |
| Whiz | yup :D | 10:33 |
| winkle | its awsome | 10:35 |
| Guardian | timeless: ok well found in the wiki, SardineGettingStarted, was it hard to answer me if you knew it ? :) | 10:35 |
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| Veggen | Guardian: Sometimes, you know it's there, but have to look it up to find out exactly where. | 10:35 |
| Veggen | Guardian: And sometimes, you know it's in some documentation, but doesn't remember the *exact* details. | 10:36 |
| Guardian | true | 10:36 |
| Guardian | it has been a long time since i did not develop anything for maemo, was before EABI introduction so ... | 10:37 |
| Guardian | surely for those who kept working on it some questions may appear to be obvious | 10:38 |
| koen | WTF? | 10:41 |
| koen | you have to reboot after installing canola | 10:41 |
| koen | what is this, windows? | 10:41 |
| Guardian | :D | 10:42 |
| Veggen | Guardian: Asking complex questions and not accepting "read documentation X" is even worse. Reading documentation is a good start, and one can rather come back if there was things you didn't understand. | 10:43 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:43 |
| koen | hey Jaffa | 10:43 |
| Jaffa | koen: I think it's because of its configuration web server | 10:43 |
| Guardian | morning jaffa | 10:43 |
| * Jaffa hasn't yet checked netstat to check it's not a security hole :-/ | 10:43 | |
| Veggen | Guardian: But I agree that it's good to point to the correct documentation if it's not obvious. | 10:43 |
| koen | Jaffa: ah, so that is taking 80% all the time | 10:43 |
| Guardian | Veggen: i accepted it, it's just that i did not read sardine stuff, since i felt i would not use sardine | 10:44 |
| Jaffa | koen: I'm also not hopeful that the web server is only started when you select the "Configure Canola" from the menu, rather than just in /etc/rc2.d. I was going to have a poke about on the train but ended up fixing Sylpheed's menus instead. | 10:47 |
| Jaffa | koen: It didn't seem to find my Myth box either (i.e. UPnP AV), but I'm not sure if "Shared Music" is just supposed to be DAAP. | 10:47 |
| koen | canola "shared music" is daapv6 | 10:48 |
| koen | itunes is at v7 nowadays | 10:48 |
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| koen | why do I get the idea canola doesn't work with IT2006? | 10:50 |
| * koen downloads it2006.1 | 10:50 | |
| bilboed | koen, I'd be amazed if it didn't | 10:53 |
| Jaffa | It works with the most recent, and given the dependency on a scirocco apt repository, perhaps it won't work with the original 2006 OS release | 10:54 |
| koen | bilboed: be amazed | 10:55 |
| bilboed | koen, bug andrunko about it once he's online | 10:55 |
| Jaffa | Hmm, bizarre email of the day: "Have you come across a QuickTime version of my Nokia 770?" (OK, it's a non-native English speaker, but it made me smile :-)) | 10:55 |
| koen | bilboed: every action freezes on "Wait! configuring local database" and the config entry just crashes opera | 10:55 |
| timeless | i was sleeping | 10:56 |
| timeless | all i did was read the documentation for bugs | 10:57 |
| timeless | not comprehension, i cna say "yes, that's coverted," and probably guess about how far into a printed stack | 10:58 |
| X-Fade | Lol, installing Canola takes so much cpu that my backlight isn't turned on when i | 11:00 |
| X-Fade | reactivate it. | 11:00 |
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| Jaffa | Hmm. Not good: Canola's configuration server a) starts on boot (as we thought, hence the reboot), and binds to 0.0.0.0:9000 so is open to anyone over the network. | 11:10 |
| X-Fade | Do you all think that in Canola "Wait, Configuring Local Database" really means "You have to configure this option first". | 11:10 |
| koen | X-Fade: it means "beta software sucks" | 11:12 |
| * koen reflashes | 11:12 | |
| X-Fade | Well, I don't have a problem with testing beta software. | 11:13 |
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| X-Fade | Man, I really need that 2GB card I have here. But I have to wait until I get it as a present for "Sinterklaas". | 11:15 |
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| sunny` | 'lo | 11:29 |
| Jaffa | lo sunny` | 11:30 |
| timeless | isn't 90000 X11 classically? | 11:31 |
| timeless | err 9000 | 11:31 |
| timeless | so, anyone here familiar w/ connection manager? | 11:31 |
| tigert | in what sense? | 11:34 |
| timeless | tigert: you might be cheating, so if someone else could answer, that would be appreciated | 11:35 |
| timeless | when you go to a strange placce and click the globe and select 'select connection' | 11:36 |
| timeless | what do the icons mean? and does anything explain them? esp say... help? | 11:36 |
| inz | Doh, canola repository on ApplicationRepositories has b0rken my script | 11:37 |
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| jtra | hi all | 11:47 |
| jtra | <jtra> hi allERC> i'm new to here, | 11:47 |
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| jtra | and my irc client is not working well :-( | 11:49 |
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| jtra | ok, I do not have 770 now and I'm pondering whether to wait for 870 or not | 11:50 |
| spaetz | timeless: you man the WLAN "managed mode vs ad-hoc vs link-local" icons? | 11:50 |
| bergie | hmm... Canola shows me bunch of DAAP servers under "Shared music" but then fails to load the music | 11:50 |
| spaetz | ...you *mean*... | 11:50 |
| dwd | jtra: The "870", as far as I know, has no release date. Or if it does, I've not seen any mention of one. | 11:52 |
| jtra | I have read blog of thoughtfix and the engadget article | 11:53 |
| Jaffa | Anyone who knows of anything won't say anything (quite rightly) | 11:53 |
| dwd | jtra: Yes, and that's really all anyone knows, other than Nokia, who aren't saying much. | 11:53 |
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| timeless | yes | 11:54 |
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| timeless | spaetz: how did ou know there were 3 icons and not 2/ | 11:56 |
| X-Fade | Too bad Canola is closed source. Making it an open project on Garage would be awesome and bring out the full potential of this app. | 11:56 |
| dwd | jtra: FWIW, it took a *long* while between the S60 v3.0 (sorry, 3rd edition) phones being available for developers, and being able to actually buy the things. The 770 wasn't quick to launch either. I doubt that it's successor will be out very soon. | 11:57 |
| jtra | seems like a good reason to buy 770 | 11:58 |
| jtra | how is it reliable from the hardware point of view? | 11:58 |
| bergie | X-Fade: agreed... that is what I said in their survey in https://garage.maemo.org/survey/?group_id=125 | 11:59 |
| X-Fade | bergie: hehe, will do that too :) | 12:00 |
| bergie | would be good to get that message across | 12:00 |
| dwd | jtra: Hardware seems fairly solid, unless you end up with the stripy-screen issue. Software-wise, it has watchdogs and suchlike to prevent the device locking up - it'll reboot before that happens - but that seems to be triggered if you use swap. | 12:01 |
| X-Fade | bergie: Argh, you have only a few chars to answer those questions.. | 12:02 |
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| X-Fade | Hmm I wonder how hard it will crash if I disable maxlength restrictions with my webdeveloper toolbar :) | 12:02 |
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| jtra | dwd: ok, thanks | 12:04 |
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| jtra | what is maximum rs-mmc card size that 770 supports? | 12:26 |
| X-Fade | 2GB atm. | 12:26 |
| Jaffa | Yay, joy! Maemo 3 devices will not be able to run most/some Maemo 2 applications without further source-level changes. | 12:28 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 12:33 |
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| ferenc | hello all | 12:39 |
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| spaetz | timeless: I've just seen them all depending on how I got connected. There is no documentation that I would know of. | 12:41 |
| koen | Jaffa: I'm sorry I mentioned the scary 'R' word | 12:42 |
| spaetz | Jaffa: who says that? | 12:42 |
| X-Fade | koen: I think they have mail rules where 'roadmap' > /dev/null ;) | 12:43 |
| spaetz | jtra: From a customer point of view, the hardware seems fairly solid and nice. The backlight flickers a little when darkes while it charges. | 12:43 |
| koen | spaetz: carlos says it | 12:43 |
| spaetz | koen: thanks. | 12:43 |
| spaetz | not so good | 12:43 |
| spaetz | but depends on the intrusiveness of the changes :-) | 12:44 |
| Veggen | and whether the improvements is worth it. | 12:44 |
| Veggen | ("are" - damn, I used to be good at english grammar) | 12:45 |
| jtra | well, I'm now researching where to buy 770 | 12:46 |
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| jtra | it is harder in the Czech Republic since Nokia decided not to sell it here | 12:46 |
| Veggen | can't you just buy it from www.nokia.com still? | 12:47 |
| jtra | it offers many European countries but mine is not among them | 12:47 |
| Jaffa | koen: Unsurprisingly "I cannot reveal the target date for Bora" | 12:48 |
| Jaffa | So Peter's assertion it'll be about 3 weeks after the 870 is right, presumably running "IT 2007" | 12:49 |
| koen | yeah | 12:49 |
| koen | maybe they'll send us bora + 870 to shut us up ;) | 12:49 |
| timeless | bora? | 12:49 |
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| koen | Jaffa: david whinerhall surface again as well | 12:52 |
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| Jaffa | koen: indeed, I resisted the urge to get into another argument (I hope) | 12:54 |
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| koen | Jaffa: I guess he had another "bad day" or whatever eufenism nokia uses | 12:55 |
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| Jaffa | Nah, I'm not sure we can justify euphanasia in this case. Oh, you said *euphemism* ;-) | 13:00 |
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| * spaetz spills coffee | 13:05 | |
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| koen | Jaffa: we should track down the first occurence of "overnight" in carlos' and ferenc' mails | 13:06 |
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| Jaffa | koen: the cynic could argue "how about over a year"? | 13:10 |
| jtra | ok, 770 is bought online, it will hopefully arrive within a week | 13:22 |
| jtra | there was some Germany firm which can deliver it here | 13:23 |
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| tigert | so I had this nagging feeling about canola | 13:37 |
| tigert | "hmm.. nobody has actually mentioned its open source, yet everyone kinda assumes it is.." | 13:37 |
| tigert | darn | 13:37 |
| koen | doesn't come as a surprise | 13:38 |
| tigert | well, indt was working on opensource stuff | 13:38 |
| tigert | in a way their "score" sunk a lot in my eyes | 13:39 |
| Jaffa | What *is* the relationship between indt and Nokia? Their name includes Nokia - a trademark - but they've claimed they're "not Nokia". Were they just saying they're not "official" Nokia, or something? Or is it a bit like the Mozilla Foundation, or Fedora, or ...? | 13:39 |
| X-Fade | tigert: apart from it being open source. What do you think about the GUI? If you look at it with your GUI guru eyes? | 13:40 |
| tigert | X-Fade: I havent installed it yet | 13:40 |
| tigert | sure it looks flashy and nice | 13:41 |
| tigert | have to use it to see how it really _works_ apart from the "looking good" -part | 13:41 |
| tigert | that is what matters, how you get stuff done | 13:41 |
| tigert | but I agree the maemo ui could use some of this kind of approach, | 13:41 |
| tigert | yet its at the same time hard, | 13:41 |
| tigert | as one is building a general platform to run apps on | 13:42 |
| X-Fade | If only you could reorder all desktop components and scale them :) | 13:42 |
| ian_brasil | Jaffa: i think the relationship is that INdT is an independent research/development organisation that has as its main banker nokia | 13:43 |
| Jaffa | ian_brasil: interesting | 13:44 |
| Jaffa | tigert: I'm still not sure that lists with scroll buttons are the best UI for touch-based interfaces hosting long lists (e.g. thousands of songs) | 13:45 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: http://www.indt.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=33 | 13:45 |
| koen | *small* scroll buttons | 13:45 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, and you can directly click on the second item in a list. | 13:46 |
| bergie | Jaffa: the reason apparently for having INdT is that Nokia gets big tax breaks in Brazil this way | 13:49 |
| mgedmin | so, is canola released yet? | 13:50 |
| bergie | mgedmin: a beta version, yes... I get it to hang the 770 a lot :-/ | 13:51 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: yep | 13:51 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: thanks | 13:51 |
| mgedmin | google doesn't know where | 13:51 |
| mgedmin | ok, found it, I think | 13:51 |
| Jaffa | http://planet.maemo.org/ and http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationCatalog2006 | 13:52 |
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| mgedmin | that clears it up: canola is not open source | 13:55 |
| koen | so another unfixable pile of bugs | 13:56 |
| koen | a pile of bugs that opens up port 9000 | 13:56 |
| tigert | Jaffa: yea, I cannot comment yet, just installing canola | 14:12 |
| tigert | will know better once I have played with it a bit | 14:12 |
| koen | Jaffa: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/response-to-nokia-trolls.txt | 14:13 |
| koen | Jaffa: I'm not sending that, but it sums up my thoughts about some nokia people being asshats | 14:15 |
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| mgedmin | I dunno... his emails on the recent thread were pretty reasonable, I thought | 14:20 |
| ferenc | today is the day of hate it seems like... i wonder what is going on? maybe i should also look for someone who i can hate for a while :) | 14:22 |
| tigert | koen: I think its more about personalities | 14:23 |
| ferenc | ah, damn. i will not look for anyone, just go back to my lovely xml docs :) piece! | 14:23 |
| tigert | koen: david is the guy who is advocating open source and other stuff internally too, hating (like we all do) powerpoints etc | 14:24 |
| tigert | he's kinda the typical hacker dude | 14:24 |
| koen | I know, I met him at fosdem | 14:24 |
| tigert | yep | 14:24 |
| tigert | but nobody is arguing we suck a lot in many things :P | 14:25 |
| tigert | having some people who could maintain our repository stuff and make sardine work better wouldnt hurt | 14:25 |
| koen | instead of arguing he's confusing the issues | 14:25 |
| * tigert tries canola | 14:26 | |
| koen | the rant about the kernel release schedule was totally unnecessary | 14:26 |
| X-Fade | SAS: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@gborg.postgresql.org:/usr/local/cvsroot/slony1 login | 14:26 |
| X-Fade | Argh, sorry wrong window ;) | 14:26 |
| koen | tigert: like Jaffa said, how can you expect people to work on stuff when they know it's going to be obsoleted soon(TM) | 14:26 |
| |tbb| | hi all, how do you transfer files in the best and fastest way from your homepc to your n770 while you got a ssh session from n770 to your server?to your | 14:27 |
| ian_brasil | i know how much some of the Nokia guys have fought for open source so i am for giving them a bit of a breather to be honest. The communication is improving and we are all on the same side so to speak | 14:27 |
| tigert | koen: yea | 14:27 |
| tigert | koen: what do you mean, sardine? | 14:27 |
| koen | ian_brasil: we've been giving them a breather since IT2005, to be honest | 14:28 |
| koen | tigert: sardine, herring, porting applications, etc | 14:28 |
| koen | tigert: for me it's become a games of guessing "what's nokia going to break now" | 14:28 |
| |tbb| | any ideas? | 14:29 |
| mgedmin | such is life in the open source world | 14:30 |
| mgedmin | ABIs break | 14:30 |
| Veggen | tbb: scp | 14:30 |
| mgedmin | applications that nobody cares about get abandoned | 14:31 |
| mgedmin | good applications catch up | 14:31 |
| koen | mgedmin: sure, but there's a huge difference between "The ABI has been broken" and "We are going to break ABI" | 14:31 |
| ian_brasil | koen: and you think kicking them will get more results...i think they could say f@!& open source | 14:31 |
| |tbb| | veggen could u post me the correct syntax in pm? | 14:31 |
| koen | ian_brasil: you mean saying nothing will work better? | 14:32 |
| Veggen | tbb: man scp | 14:32 |
| koen | ian_brasil: "no critique allowed" | 14:32 |
| Veggen | sorry, but this is *not* the right channel for general Linux questions, I feel. | 14:32 |
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| ian_brasil | no i am saying that dumb head management types are like hard to get to change direction | 14:32 |
| |tbb| | thats why i was asking for a msg in private chat ;) | 14:33 |
| mgedmin | |tbb|: I've found it most convenient to use sshfs and connect from the desktop to the 770 | 14:33 |
| Veggen | tbb: you need to learn to find these simple things yourself, or else you'll annoy the heck out of all IRC-channels. | 14:33 |
| |tbb| | i will look for it if i have time | 14:33 |
| mgedmin | |tbb|: what sort of OS do you have on your home PC? | 14:33 |
| |tbb| | iwas knowing how can i get it with ftp scp would be similar, but my quest was going to be which is the best and fastest way | 14:34 |
| Veggen | tbb: That's the thing - it is sort of not good to ask on IRC-channels just because you have no time to read documentation yourself. | 14:34 |
| |tbb| | mgedmin slackware and on my work pc debian | 14:35 |
| mgedmin | I think helping somebody find the best way to transfer files to the 770 is a better use of IRC than chatting about email flamewars | 14:35 |
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| mgedmin | |tbb|: can you ssh from your desktop to your 770? | 14:36 |
| |tbb| | yes i can with a little help of my friends ;) old beatles song | 14:37 |
| Veggen | mgedmin: oh, sure. I thought he was asking about general scp syntax. | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | |tbb|: this works in Ubuntu, so I think it might work in Debian as well | 14:37 |
| jtra | ttb: midnight commander can connect and transfer files via ssh, I did not tried that with n770 though | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | apt-get install sshfs | 14:37 |
| Veggen | and it's considered good behaviour to read the doc first, and ask later. | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | adduser $USER fuse | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | log out, log in | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | mkdir my-nokia | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | sshfs user@ip-of-your-nokia:/ my-nokia | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | (after making the 770 go online) | 14:37 |
| mgedmin | and now you can see and manipulate the files on your 770 in the my-nokia directory on your computer | 14:38 |
| mgedmin | when you're done, fusermount -u my-nokia | 14:38 |
| jtra | ttb: it is as simple as selecting "shell link" from menu and filing user@host, then enter password if you have any | 14:38 |
| mgedmin | jtra: it works, but midnight's ssh support is (or maybe just feels) very slow | 14:38 |
| Veggen | but, effective way, that's something else: If I have directory I want to copy over, I use this neat trick: ssh <home_machine> 'cd /some/remote/directory;tar cf - <directory>' | (cd /some/place/local;tar xf -) | 14:38 |
| mgedmin | yeah, there are many ways | 14:39 |
| |tbb| | so u zip it like beckham and transfer it on your n770, could idea | 14:40 |
| |tbb| | -could +good | 14:40 |
| Veggen | My line puts the archive on standard out, that the local tar packs out again. | 14:41 |
| Veggen | scp with many small files is not so fast. | 14:41 |
| Veggen | but for large or few files, it works well. | 14:42 |
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| * Jaffa belatedly catches up... | 14:47 | |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: ABI breakage is relatively livable with, it's the never-still API changes *with limited/no backwards compatibility* that frustrates | 14:48 |
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| mgedmin | I shouldn't have said ABI, I intended to say API | 14:48 |
| mgedmin | I agree that it frustrated | 14:49 |
| mgedmin | I agree that it frustrates | 14:49 |
| mgedmin | my point was that this isn't uncommon in the open-source world | 14:49 |
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| Veggen | mge: Not in the proprietary world either. | 14:50 |
| _matthias_ | canola is segfaulting on my device :( | 14:52 |
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| tigert | reboot after installation | 14:57 |
| onion | damn it's unstable | 14:57 |
| onion | the whole tablet has rebooted now twice when using canola | 14:58 |
| ferenc | canola has a garage project, i'd suggest you guys to shoot the bug reports there | 14:58 |
| tigert | I wish it was free software | 14:59 |
| ferenc | tigert: they might have several reasons why it is not open. they have a forum over at garage, maybe it would be worth asking. | 14:59 |
| ferenc | i will also push them to publish sources, since garage is meant for OSS | 15:00 |
| X-Fade | ferenc: What about Media Streamer? :) | 15:01 |
| X-Fade | I would like to see their theming tricks too.. | 15:01 |
| tigert | ferenc: "sell it to nokia for big money"? :) | 15:01 |
| tigert | dang. I thought canola did upnp | 15:02 |
| Jaffa | tigert: nope, I've raised a feature request :-( | 15:02 |
| tigert | how do they browse the thousands of songs then? | 15:03 |
| ferenc | X-Fade: good point. i think we have a few more projects there who did not upload sources. | 15:03 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: agreed, it's not uncommon in the OSS world; however it is uncommon in the OSS world to have the largest code writer just dumping in new features/changes without discussion on mailing lists, a roadmap for the project being well known and discussed etc. A hybrid model where things break (well, it's OSS) with no idea as to *why* they're breaking ("well, that's commercially sensitive") is unlikely to keep developers on it for long. | 15:03 |
| tigert | ferenc: a LOT of packaged stuff also, | 15:03 |
| tigert | ferenc: people package opensource stuff for the 770 | 15:03 |
| Jaffa | tigert: It does DAAP, so (allegedly) works with iTunes etc. | 15:03 |
| tigert | but not many really share their debian package sources | 15:04 |
| tigert | ie, so one could modify the stuff and package it again | 15:04 |
| X-Fade | Hmmm: Visa Smolander: "Current plan is to release the source code. I'm not sure yet when it will happen, though. Hopefully during this year.." | 15:04 |
| tigert | Jaffa: okay | 15:04 |
| Jaffa | tigert: alternatively, lots of MP3s on an MMC card? ;-) | 15:04 |
| ferenc | X-Fade: try to ping him. i am sure he will reply. | 15:04 |
| ferenc | tigert: i want to rearrange the extras repo first and then look into access rights again. | 15:05 |
| ferenc | tigert: the best would be to "recruit" a packaging team who then would help the garage projects as well. | 15:05 |
| ferenc | i have not seen any volunteers for such job so far | 15:05 |
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| X-Fade | ferenc: Ok, I did ;) | 15:07 |
| ferenc | X-Fade: cool. hope he will give a + reply regarding sources. | 15:07 |
| timeless | rsync w/ ssh :) | 15:07 |
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| ferenc | tigert: what did you mean by this: "people package opensource stuff for the 770" ? | 15:10 |
| jtra | cool, e-shop informed me that my 770 was sent, that means it should arrive by monday, possibly even tomorrow | 15:10 |
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| koen | Jaffa: heh, I seem to have skipped over the one helpfull email from david | 15:13 |
| timeless | hrm | 15:13 |
| timeless | i think you haven't met some open source projects | 15:13 |
| timeless | e.g. firefox | 15:14 |
| timeless | where things randomly show up without much notice to most of the world | 15:14 |
| timeless | or ubuntu where all of a sudden the theme shifts drastically | 15:14 |
| timeless | big open source projects do have big surprises at times | 15:15 |
| timeless | that's part of the fun | 15:15 |
| timeless | which isn't to say that i happen to like that approach, who can, but it's not unheard of in the "open source" community for it to happen | 15:15 |
| timeless | all of a sudden a new virtual machine appeared for javascript for mozilla2 | 15:16 |
| timeless | there was virtually no warning | 15:16 |
| timeless | it happens that it wasn't entirely written by the primary coder, but he landed it | 15:16 |
| timeless | (true, it was a contribution from another company, but...) | 15:16 |
| timeless | of the big groups, i suppose opensolaris gives some reasonable warnings with a roadmap | 15:17 |
| timeless | but the people outside the sun firewall get upset about a lack of transparency too | 15:17 |
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| florian_kc | hi all | 15:20 |
| ferenc | hello florian_kc! | 15:21 |
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| florian_kc | ferenc: hi | 15:22 |
| florian_kc | ferenc: I fought another battle against GForge yesterday... current create_svn.php (from cvs) still messes up the permissions of the repositories. | 15:27 |
| ferenc | florian_kc: i have an idea. i'll write you an email. | 15:28 |
| florian_kc | ferenc: oh cool | 15:29 |
| florian_kc | ferenc: i managed to fix this, but let me see your idea is better | 15:31 |
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| bergie | X-Fade: Was that "Current plan is to release the source code" from Canola devs? | 15:32 |
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| X-Fade | bergie: No, for Media Streamer. | 15:33 |
| bergie | aha | 15:33 |
| X-Fade | But the indt guys come here too, so ask them :) | 15:35 |
| bergie | ok... will do if I'm still online then. Though it is already 10 or 11am in Recife I think | 15:37 |
| * ferenc is off to play some futsal. be back later. | 15:39 | |
| X-Fade | bergie: Perheps andrunko knows? I think he has something to do with Canola? | 15:40 |
| tigert | ferenc: I mean, there have been several cases of someone packaging free software for the 770 | 15:40 |
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| tigert | but they only put their armel.deb file out | 15:41 |
| tigert | not the diff, src tar.gz etc | 15:41 |
| tigert | ie, if someone wants to modify the stuff, they have to do the packaging themselves from scratch | 15:41 |
| Jaffa | timeless: OpenSolaris is a new OSS project and can hardly be expected to be perfect (same firewall separation as Maemo, I suppose); Mozilla/Firefox have had much criticism for their approach, but at least there's a broad swipe at a future roadmap; Perl, Python, Ruby, Apache, Tomcat, PHP, etc. all have roadmaps; discussions etc. | 15:43 |
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| timeless | just offering some comparisons, i'm not going to say i like or dislike any particular model | 15:44 |
| timeless | keep in mind that sun has open sourced: netbeans, openoffice, and now opensolaris, and will open source java at some point | 15:44 |
| timeless | nokia has basically open sourced asterisk | 15:44 |
| jtra | timeless: java is opensourced now | 15:45 |
| timeless | hrm, url? | 15:45 |
| koen | any news site last week | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | timeless: Under what rock did you hide? :) | 15:45 |
| timeless | i tried reading a couple of articles 1min ago | 15:45 |
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| timeless | none actually listed a url or said that it was, just that it would be | 15:46 |
| Veggen | I don't think the code is quite released yet, only going to happen RSN? | 15:46 |
| timeless | i'll repeat: url? | 15:46 |
| X-Fade | http://www.sun.com/software/opensource/java/ | 15:47 |
| X-Fade | https://openjdk.dev.java.net/ | 15:47 |
| Jaffa | Veggen: Java ME source certainly is available | 15:47 |
| Veggen | oh, ok. My fault, then. | 15:48 |
| koen | ME sources where available for some years now | 15:48 |
| koen | but: | 15:48 |
| koen | 1) they needed gcc 2.95.3 | 15:48 |
| koen | 2) you couldn't distribute the binary | 15:49 |
| minra | greetings. i havent been able to get vnc connections going yet. (to debian realvnc) :( from the logs it looks like the nokia vncviewer is aborting the connection | 15:49 |
| |tbb| | is there a theme chooser with preview in the n770? | 15:49 |
| * minra stfws | 15:49 | |
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| timeless | tbb: thankfully nokia wasn't silly enough not to include such a thing | 15:57 |
| |tbb| | why is that silly? | 15:57 |
| timeless | why would not including such a thing be silly? | 15:57 |
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| |tbb| | ive looked under /usr/share/themes there where some themes if i would like to change it i have to matchbox-... -t themename | 15:59 |
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| |tbb| | i would like to set the font of the newsreader applet on home screen smaller, is there any hack ? | 16:00 |
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| minra | hi obi | 16:14 |
| obi | hi | 16:14 |
| * minra stifles a potential stream of noobish questions | 16:14 | |
| minra | seen that leaked pic of the "870"? yet? | 16:15 |
| minra | i sure like the 770 design better | 16:15 |
| X-Fade | minra: I think we all do :) | 16:16 |
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| minra | GPG error: http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com mistral Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG CBFC2BECC6903E72 Nokia Internet... | 16:24 |
| minra | i am getting this when running apt-get upgrade | 16:24 |
| Jaffa | That's fine - although apt-get upgrade on the device was historically dangerous. | 16:26 |
| minra | sorry i had a brain short circuit... it came through the update | 16:28 |
| minra | i generally dont run upgrade... | 16:28 |
| minra | thanks jaffa... seems to have updated despite the warnings | 16:29 |
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| bstock | hey, i had a quick question. My application manager doesn't want to load for me, is there anyway to see what the problem is? | 16:37 |
| timeless | does it crash? | 16:37 |
| timeless | if you have /media/mmc1/core-dumps/ you'd be able to see it crash :) | 16:38 |
| bstock | it just says 'Application manager - loading'... sits for about 30 seconds, then goes away | 16:38 |
| timeless | well, try having that folder, see if it leaves a nice file (usually two) for you | 16:38 |
| bstock | do i just mk that dir? | 16:38 |
| timeless | you can use file manager ... | 16:39 |
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| nelson | Does anybody besides me think the clock works backwards? | 16:43 |
| bstock | so i made that directory, tried to launch the app, failed, and still no files | 16:43 |
| timeless | how so? =>nelson | 16:43 |
| nelson | I think it should always show the time at your current location. | 16:43 |
| timeless | interesting, well, you can cat /var/log/syslog if you want to... | 16:44 |
| bstock | i've noticed some issues with the clock, as it doesn't like to change timezones | 16:44 |
| nelson | just as alarms should be relative to your current location. | 16:44 |
| timeless | really? i've flown to 5+ countries and had no problems w/ my 770 | 16:44 |
| nelson | timeless how do you change the time display? | 16:44 |
| timeless | open clock | 16:44 |
| timeless | (double clicking on home applet) | 16:45 |
| timeless | clock menu>map>select home city... | 16:45 |
| nelson | right; that's what I'm suggesting is wrong. | 16:45 |
| timeless | why? | 16:45 |
| nelson | your home is where your stereo is. | 16:45 |
| timeless | personally i'd like to have a swap item, but... | 16:46 |
| nelson | Unless you're moving, you shouldn't have to change your home city. | 16:46 |
| nelson | On the other hand, when you visit some place, changing the displayed time should simply be a matter of clicking on your location on the map. | 16:46 |
| timeless | well, destination is a place i'd be going to, not a place i'm at | 16:46 |
| timeless | so it's not just a matter of swapping them | 16:46 |
| timeless | both strings would need to change | 16:47 |
| nelson | Ahhh, but I want to see the time at home, so I don't call the wife in the middle of the night. | 16:47 |
| * nelson keeps the wife happy. | 16:47 | |
| timeless | supposing i could convince the localizers that the strings are wrong, what would happen to the poor people who are used to them when they update and the strings reverse their meanings | 16:47 |
| timeless | take the wife along :) | 16:47 |
| nelson | Uhhhhhh, it's easier to set the home city. | 16:48 |
| nelson | Boy, I'm always surprised when somebody defends something which is "obviously" wrong to me. | 16:49 |
| nelson | Obviously it's not that obvious! | 16:49 |
| timeless | i think i've unfortunately used that feature too long | 16:49 |
| timeless | but seriously | 16:49 |
| nelson | Stockholm syndrome. | 16:49 |
| timeless | i'm ok with changing home | 16:49 |
| timeless | but destination doesn't work as the alternative | 16:49 |
| nelson | You've been captured by a bad user interface, and now you love it. | 16:49 |
| timeless | come up w/ a second string and i'll bug the localizers until it changes | 16:49 |
| nelson | Oh; no, the software is wrong. | 16:50 |
| nelson | It should display your current location. | 16:50 |
| timeless | yeah, but fixing the software is much harder | 16:50 |
| timeless | it requires convincing some ui designers who believe their designs are perfect | 16:50 |
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| * nelson polishes his clue bat. | 16:50 | |
| timeless | fixing the localization only requires convincing the localizers that we're native speakers and that the people who wrote the spec weren't | 16:51 |
| timeless | in general, the localizers are a lot more willing to fix things | 16:51 |
| timeless | either way, we need 2 strings, home is fine for the alternate one | 16:52 |
| nelson | The problem is that there are two definitions of "home": | 16:52 |
| timeless | but what do you call the "current location" | 16:52 |
| nelson | 1) where your stereo is, | 16:52 |
| nelson | 2) where you're sleeping tonight. | 16:52 |
| timeless | i think "current location" might work | 16:52 |
| * timeless nods | 16:52 | |
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| timeless | again, it's much easier to convince a localizer that they translated the wrong definition of home :) | 16:52 |
| nelson | The UI designers seem to have adopted the latter, but I think the former is better. | 16:52 |
| timeless | you're right, but we still need a second string, and it can't be destination, since that's wrong | 16:53 |
| nelson | Yes, but ... whatever you call them, the UI displays the *other* time from the one you can easily click on on the map. | 16:53 |
| * timeless nods | 16:53 | |
| nelson | s/UI/front-page-clock/ | 16:53 |
| timeless | unfortunately the solution to that is a feature request or 3 | 16:54 |
| timeless | and that's *much* harder to arrange | 16:54 |
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| timeless | the design for this is that you open clock and ask "what time is it where <so and so> lives" | 16:54 |
| nelson | Why can't I just check the code out of SVN, fix it, and submit a patch? | 16:54 |
| timeless | because you can't check the spec out of svn | 16:55 |
| timeless | and if you submitted a patch which caused the app to disagree w/ the spec | 16:55 |
| nelson | okay, so the design is wrong. | 16:55 |
| timeless | the engineers would suffer from bugs about the impl not matching the spec | 16:55 |
| shw | hi there - i have a problem with flasher tool. I've flashed nokia with newest image - scirocco, and now flasher on linux seems to not see the device | 16:55 |
| nelson | because I can always open up the clock, click on my friend's location, see his time, and then click back on my location. | 16:55 |
| timeless | keep in mind | 16:56 |
| timeless | changing the device time results in a bit of a cascade of messages | 16:56 |
| timeless | it's not free | 16:56 |
| nelson | I guess that the clock isn't really designed for people who travel. | 16:56 |
| timeless | whereas showing some random time in a single window is free | 16:56 |
| timeless | no, it isn't | 16:56 |
| nelson | Nahhhhh, I'm not talking about changing the device time; just the time zone. | 16:56 |
| timeless | it takes 4 or so operations for each place i fly | 16:57 |
| nelson | Never change the device time; it's always UTC. | 16:57 |
| timeless | it still affects various apps | 16:57 |
| timeless | or should | 16:57 |
| timeless | ignore the fact that some apps are buggy | 16:57 |
| * timeless wonders if the web browser gets that right | 16:57 | |
| * timeless knows of at least one browser that gets it wrong | 16:57 | |
| nelson | TZ is just a presentation parameter. | 16:57 |
| nelson | Just like currency formats, date formats, etc. | 16:57 |
| timeless | what you see is the only thing that matters (wysitottm) | 16:58 |
| shw | i'm using opensuse btw. | 16:58 |
| timeless | if the calendar you're looking at says you're in finland | 16:58 |
| timeless | and you know that you told it that you're in santa clara, ca | 16:58 |
| timeless | then you get fairly annoyed and assume it's broken | 16:58 |
| |tbb| | is it possible to setup the alarmclock so that it starts everyday at 7oclock? | 16:58 |
| timeless | when in fact, it's just trusting your browser which didn't get the memo from the system | 16:59 |
| timeless | what do you mean starts? powers on? | 16:59 |
| nelson | I think he wants a persistent alarm. | 16:59 |
| |tbb| | yeah nelson you are right! | 17:00 |
| * timeless has never used the alarm | 17:00 | |
| |tbb| | im german my english is lazy | 17:00 |
| timeless | isn't that what cell phones are for? | 17:00 |
| nelson | timeless: 770 alarm nice! | 17:00 |
| * timeless waits 3mins for it to fire | 17:00 | |
| * nelson is a belts and suspenders kinda guy. He sets alarm on 770 AND calls for a wakeup call. | 17:01 | |
| nelson | Note to self: never get a wakeup call when you're in a suite of random conference attendees. | 17:01 |
| timeless | heh | 17:01 |
| timeless | aren't wakeup calls supposed to be attached to hotel room phones? | 17:02 |
| nelson | Not when you're in a flat which has been converted into a "hotel suite". | 17:02 |
| timeless | interesting alarm | 17:04 |
| timeless | seems to have an echo | 17:04 |
| timeless | not sure it'd wake me up | 17:04 |
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| nelson | it gets louder. | 17:04 |
| nelson | and re-rings every five minutes if you don't tell it to close or snooze. | 17:04 |
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| mgedmin | opera on the 770 gets timezones wrong btw | 17:07 |
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| minra | bleah, that applications page for maemo is too big. | 17:07 |
| minra | super slow too. i cant get to the bluebox link | 17:08 |
| minra | is there a sleeker browser than the default? lynx has no installation candidate. | 17:09 |
| minra | Package lynx is not available, but is referred to by another package. | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | I found links for maemo | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | better than lynx | 17:10 |
| minra | sweet | 17:15 |
| minra | i need to activate swap here... that applications page is a behemoth | 17:15 |
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| Guardian | should i keep | 17:23 |
| Guardian | deb http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/certified/ mistral user | 17:23 |
| Guardian | deb http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/non-certified/ mistral user | 17:23 |
| Guardian | that are in /etc/apt/sources.list when unpacking a fresh 2.1 rootstrap ? | 17:24 |
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| nelson | timeless: so, any chance the spec for the clock could be checked into svn? | 17:53 |
| * timeless rotfl | 17:54 | |
| timeless | did i say i had it? | 17:54 |
| timeless | i'm just saying that as processes go, there's a spec, it's secret, and anytime anything diverges from it, engineers suffer the wrath of silly spec readers | 17:54 |
| timeless | you don't have to work at a company to know that process | 17:55 |
| timeless | it's SOP | 17:55 |
| * mgedmin is lucky enough to never have encountered it | 17:58 | |
| timeless | yes, anyone who has encountered it almost certainly regrets their encounter | 17:58 |
| * mgedmin is also bold enough to split infinitives left and right | 17:58 | |
| timeless | yeah, well, to have never encountered it is definitely better | 17:59 |
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| mgedmin | I love this picture: http://www.gnome.org/~michael/print-button-spec.png | 18:00 |
| * timeless rotf-crying | 18:01 | |
| timeless | i suppose it could be work | 18:01 |
| timeless | i suppose it could be worse | 18:01 |
| timeless | i've read that there are big companies that have even more management processes than nokia | 18:01 |
| minra | are you folks using the bootmenu initfs? From what i read, it expects an older kernel that doesnt support 2GB cards | 18:02 |
| nelson | timeless: yeah, I know. | 18:03 |
| Jaffa | koen: apparently Canola is supposed to do UPnP: https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/?func=detail&atid=532&aid=146&group_id=125 | 18:04 |
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| koen | Jaffa: features are a bit irrelevant if it doesn't run, don't you think? | 18:10 |
| Tak | canola runs fine for me | 18:11 |
| dwd | koen: Who cares if it works? It's pretty... | 18:11 |
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| koen | it's so pretty it takes 80% cpu when it isn't running | 18:11 |
| timeless | that's not too bad, i've had apps use more :) | 18:11 |
| timeless | and do less :) | 18:11 |
| Tak | maybe it's indexing your media? | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, it was indexing my rather large maemo-mapper images dir :) | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | That took a while. | 18:13 |
| Tak | did that to me too ;-) | 18:13 |
| koen | hmmm | 18:13 |
| koen | having 500MB of mm maps would take a while I guess | 18:13 |
| Tak | "Wtf is taking so long? Ok, finally, it's done...what are all these pictures it found? Oh...LOL!" | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, I removed the /media/mmc1 dir in the configurator. | 18:14 |
| koen | the 'configurater' crashes opera over here | 18:14 |
| Tak | the file management thing in the configurator needs some love | 18:15 |
| X-Fade | yeah, you have to wait untill the indexes is done.. | 18:15 |
| X-Fade | indexer even. | 18:15 |
| koen | media streamer "just works" and will be open source (apparently) | 18:15 |
| koen | which makes it infinately better as canola IMO | 18:15 |
| minra | mplayer ... handles so many formats... | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | koen: "Will be open source" will not happen overnight? :) | 18:16 |
| koen | heh | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | But you can always voice your opinion here https://garage.maemo.org/forum/forum.php?thread_id=298&forum_id=251 | 18:17 |
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| _matthias_ | why is it that my app installer says ... unable to install canola | 18:25 |
| _matthias_ | but then its installed | 18:25 |
| minra | Hello philipl , Milhouse, o_9 | 18:25 |
| _matthias_ | but does not work ;( | 18:25 |
| minra | can you enable a log for app installer? | 18:26 |
| Jaffa | Menu > Tools > Log... | 18:26 |
| Tak | you need to reboot after installing it | 18:27 |
| _matthias_ | Errors were encountered while processing: libsdl-ttf2.0-...... | 18:27 |
| _matthias_ | i will uninstall sdl and stuff and try again | 18:29 |
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| kender | hello | 18:31 |
| o_9 | hello minra | 18:31 |
| minra | wowww xmame! https://garage.maemo.org/projects/xmame | 18:32 |
| * minra frolics | 18:33 | |
| * Tak grins | 18:33 | |
| Tak | it's in the extras repo as well | 18:33 |
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| minra | i still am using the internal flash for my root filesystem and it is pretty full. can i delete the debs in archives 13525 /var/cache/apt/archives | 18:48 |
| Jaffa | Yep | 18:48 |
| Jaffa | `apt-get clean' will do it for you | 18:48 |
| minra | thanks. looks like i will try the boot manager with the fast write kernel, once i get the nerve to flash the system | 18:49 |
| minra | the multi-block write kernel looks very nice - nearly 10x the speed for writes to a newish mmc card (2gb kingston) and then space worries will be over | 18:50 |
| bstock | ok, so i'm trying to get canola running... and getting this error when i launch from CLI: GLIB WARNING ** default - Unable to find a plugin to handle filter 'Controller/Containter' | 18:51 |
| minra | will also be great to be able to swap systems just by swapping memory cards... | 18:51 |
| Tak | bstock: reboot | 18:51 |
| bstock | cool reboot worked, thx | 18:53 |
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| kender | what does happen if the flashing proccess fails? | 19:00 |
| _matthias_ | depends on when kender ;) | 19:00 |
| _matthias_ | but i think in worst case you could brick your device and you would have to send it to nokia, them having it flashed for you | 19:01 |
| kender | so, the guarranty will cover it? | 19:01 |
| _matthias_ | kender: not sure but there were people who had to send their devices in and i think they got it back ;) | 19:03 |
| kender | ok | 19:03 |
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| minra | if flashing breaks, dont reboot. correct? instead re-flash., | 19:06 |
| timeless | i'm not sure if it's guaranteed | 19:07 |
| timeless | there's sure a lot of stuff that says "don't unplug your device while flashing" | 19:07 |
| kender | but, how you know that if it's bad flashed? | 19:07 |
| kender | timeless, ... | 19:08 |
| timeless | i suspect if you manage to brick your device repeatedly and it's clear that you're negligent (flashing w/o enough battery, or pulling the plug while flashing or...) that they might have the right to say it's your fault | 19:08 |
| timeless | the instructions are pretty clear and should be easy to follow | 19:08 |
| timeless | you have a charged device, it isn't plugged into the charger, you don't unplug the usb cable while flashing | 19:09 |
| timeless | probably a good idea to make sure your flash host doesn't die while you flash :) | 19:09 |
| timeless | (use a laptop ;-) | 19:09 |
| timeless | but i'm just an end user who has read pieces of the user guide | 19:10 |
| timeless | what do i know? :) | 19:10 |
| kender | xDD | 19:10 |
| mgedmin | there's a user guide? | 19:11 |
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| timeless | nds2.nokia.com/files/support/nam/phones/guides/770_US_en.PDF - Similar pages - Note this | 19:13 |
| * timeless ponders | 19:14 | |
| timeless | i didn't know the 770 was a phone | 19:14 |
| timeless | oh well | 19:14 |
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| mgedmin | an Internet Phone (ta-dam!) | 19:15 |
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| jtra | oh well, its a phone company, thats why the website shows in Products menu: Latest Phones | All Phones | Upcoming Phones | Accessories | Technologies | 19:18 |
| jtra | when I went there I was pretty confused that I resorted to use search instead of finding it in myriads of phone listings | 19:20 |
| Tak | LOL - http://www.sydlexia.com/girlsofnes.htm | 19:20 |
| bstock | tak is a digger ;) | 19:22 |
| _matthias_ | seems that something called libsoup2.2.-8 would not want to be installed on my 770 | 19:22 |
| Tak | indeed | 19:22 |
| bstock | so should it take canola forever to play a video, or will the counter thing just spin if it can't play? | 19:24 |
| Milhouse | if the screen goes black, it will either play eventually or the counter will spin forever (it's a bit random like that) | 19:25 |
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| bstock | heh yeah.. seems to just be spinning | 19:26 |
| bstock | is there a way to install xtra codecs easily? | 19:26 |
| Tak | do you have mplayer installed? | 19:26 |
| bstock | indeed | 19:26 |
| Milhouse | I take that back - if the screen goes black it may play eventually or it will remain black forever... if you have the spinning thing it will may eventually produce an error | 19:26 |
| Milhouse | you can add extra codecs to tversity and have it transcode... that's possibly the easiest option for the time being until such time as canola supports mplayer (assuming it ever will support mplayer) | 19:27 |
| Tak | eh? | 19:28 |
| Tak | I thought canola was using mplayer on the backend? | 19:28 |
| Tak | or do you mean for upnp kind of thing? | 19:28 |
| Milhouse | i thought it was using the original video player - the one limited to 358x208 resolution | 19:28 |
| Milhouse | i don't have mplayer installed | 19:29 |
| bstock | i know the regular video player has shit for codecs | 19:29 |
| Milhouse | (recent reflash...) | 19:29 |
| Milhouse | wouldn't canola have to have specific support for mplayer? | 19:29 |
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| Milhouse | never seen it mentioned it supports mplayer - to me, canola is just a new gui for the standard (and feature limited) audio and video players | 19:31 |
| Milhouse | :( | 19:31 |
| bstock | hmm, so i should take the videos i have and use transcode to get them in a good format for the nokia | 19:32 |
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| Milhouse | the only success I've had so far is to install the ffdshow codec in TVersity and transcode to 358x208 max video resolution | 19:35 |
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| Milhouse | however, video display on the 770 is hit and miss - sometimes a video will display, sometimes i'll be left with a black screen. other videos won't work at all. | 19:36 |
| bstock | hmm, maybe i'll look at making some transcode scripts | 19:38 |
| Jaffa | bstock: they exist already (<plug>http://www.bleb.org/software/770/#encode</plug>) | 19:38 |
| bstock | nice | 19:39 |
| Jaffa | more on the wiki in the VideoEncoding page | 19:42 |
| Jaffa | bstock: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/VideoEncoding | 19:43 |
| tigert | the web service has worked nicely | 19:47 |
| Jaffa | ta :) | 19:48 |
| * Jaffa hooked in the queue sizes into mrtg yesterday: http://badger.bleb.org/mrtg/vidconvert.html | 19:48 | |
| saerdnaer | live convert to stream would also be nice ;-) | 19:48 |
| tigert | yours? ;) | 19:48 |
| saerdnaer | no | 19:48 |
| Jaffa | tigert: yeah - currently 570 videos in the results folder, 0 items in the queue. | 19:49 |
| tigert | no, jaffa's i mean | 19:49 |
| tigert | i bet you get to see interesting shit ;) | 19:49 |
| Jaffa | saerdnaer: the 770's Video Player can play back suitable AVIs in a stream | 19:49 |
| Jaffa | Most of it's YouTube, so I don't bother. | 19:49 |
| tigert | yeah | 19:50 |
| Jaffa | You get some really dumb people putting crap into the URL field | 19:50 |
| Jaffa | "nokiasoftwareupdate" was one today, I mean - wtf?! | 19:50 |
| Jaffa | And people trying to access password protected porn | 19:50 |
| Milhouse | yeah sorry about that ;) | 19:50 |
| tigert | "PARIS HILTON" ? ;) | 19:50 |
| Jaffa | Milhouse: I wouldn't mind if you shared the p/w in the URL ;-) | 19:51 |
| saerdnaer | yes, i know, but if i use this webservice i have always wait until it is converted | 19:51 |
| Jaffa | tigert: I think there've been a couple of "sex" | 19:51 |
| tigert | "it has a text field" = it must be search!! | 19:51 |
| Jaffa | saerdnaer: ah, yeah - so stream the result before the conversion's finished. Problem with that is ensuring the video player doesn't just stop if the conversion's going slow | 19:51 |
| Jaffa | David Chess' diary has a text field with a changing label above it, he collates the best results and publishes them | 19:52 |
| Milhouse | http://www.theinquirer.org/default.aspx?article=36065 - interesting from a future 770/870 GPS point of view | 19:53 |
| Milhouse | "The company seems to think that "specialised devices" -actually dumbed-down devices with limited functionality- are the future." | 19:53 |
| saerdnaer | has someone already used a usb to serial converter with an n700? | 19:53 |
| Jaffa | http://www.davidchess.com/words/log.html | 19:54 |
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| _matthias_ | i'm giving up playing with my canola hickups ... i better just reflash my device | 19:55 |
| _matthias_ | anybody knows where i can find curl/libcurl ... no longer in app catalouge it seems | 19:56 |
| saerdnaer2 | is canola already out? | 19:56 |
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| _matthias_ | saerdnaer: jep ;) | 19:57 |
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| * Jaffa builds a new version of Sylpheed with better menu fixes | 20:03 | |
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| nelson | Tiger Direct catalog I received today has the 770 in the top left of the cover. | 20:37 |
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| kender | nelson, so, they aren't going to "publicate" the new version of the nokia 770 in Xmas | 20:43 |
| nelson | I think Christmas catalogs lacking the 870 are a good sign that they don't expect to sell any. | 20:50 |
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| Milhouse | Any garage system admins here? Could you check the garage@maemo.org mail queue as new account activation in Garage isn't working - have sent a feedback email... | 21:17 |
| guerby | hi, anyone with experience using bkdd and bluetooth keyboard with Nokia 770? | 21:25 |
| Robot101 | Milhouse: it's reasonable to assume they're in .fi, where it's already past 9pm | 21:26 |
| Robot101 | Milhouse: you'll probably need to wait to tomorrow | 21:26 |
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| arj | any Canola developers in here? | 21:32 |
| arj | anyone awake in here? ;-) | 21:34 |
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| Tak | we should be, we have c0ffee | 21:34 |
| arj | :) | 21:34 |
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| c0ffee | bwahahaah | 21:46 |
| c0ffee | that was funny | 21:46 |
| Tak | lame joke: $0.00. making somebody stop what they're doing and scan the channel for a random nick highlight: priceless | 21:47 |
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| Milhouse | ah yes true - but also hoping they'll review this irc when they get in :) | 21:53 |
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| arj | still no Canola dudes here? | 22:20 |
| Tybstar | i'd be hiding if i were them. their blogs were mobbed. :) | 22:21 |
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| ian_brasil | Tybstar: how so..you have a link? | 22:43 |
| |tbb| | how do i find out which distibution ive got installed? | 22:45 |
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| Tak | |tbb|: you don't remember? | 22:52 |
| |tbb| | i mean i have used the flash tool from nokia and the 3.2006 image | 22:53 |
| |tbb| | this means i have scirocco? | 22:54 |
| |tbb| | and why my hostname still change the name by hisself | 22:55 |
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| arj | I was wondering the same thing | 22:56 |
| |tbb| | an at least why i no 1 will port macchanger for me ;) | 22:58 |
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| bstock | anyone know a good way to refresh the canola database without removing and adding the folder from the media collection? | 23:10 |
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| Tak | eek | 23:12 |
| Tak | does it really not refresh? | 23:12 |
| bstock | if i add content into a folder currently set in the media collection, i have to go to the 'configure canola' and remove/re-add the folder | 23:13 |
| bstock | or if i move a file into a subfolder | 23:13 |
| Tak | wow, that really sucks | 23:13 |
| bstock | yeah | 23:13 |
| bstock | maybe if i rebooted my nokia it would refresh.. | 23:13 |
| bstock | but that takes longer | 23:13 |
| bstock | does the 3.2006 image have a lot more content then what came on my nokia? i know it has the 2006 OS but not sure which one | 23:15 |
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| minra | remoo | 23:26 |
| minra | is anybody using a 2GB Kingston High-Speed RS-MMC? I am wondering what kernel to install | 23:27 |
| Tak | I am | 23:27 |
| Tak | the stock scirocco kernel works fine for me | 23:27 |
| minra | you using the multiblock write kernel ? | 23:28 |
| Tak | but I don't need all your fancy-schmancy multiblock writes and nfs client support | 23:28 |
| minra | well if i activate swap, i want the kernel that can write at 3plus MB/sec and not at 33OkB/sec as reported on a website | 23:29 |
| minra | ah | 23:29 |
| minra | do you use swap? | 23:29 |
| Tak | yes | 23:31 |
| arj | Tak: how did you install/use the scirocco kernel? | 23:32 |
| Tak | by flashing the scirocco image | 23:32 |
| arj | does that upgrade applications + kernel or only kernel? | 23:32 |
| Tak | the whole root fs | 23:33 |
| arj | nice, did you build it yourself or can one download it somewhere? | 23:33 |
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| Tak | heh | 23:33 |
| Tak | http://www.maemo.org/downloads/nokia_770 | 23:35 |
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| minra | i think what i want to do is install bootmenu and get another mmc card so i can boot to a dev system or swap cards and boot to a productive system | 23:36 |
| * MDK tries to remember when he has seen an over-staffed open-source project last time... | 23:36 | |
| minra | btw i really need festival or at least /usr/bin/play to use kismet | 23:36 |
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| MDK | bleh | 23:36 |
| MDK | sorry | 23:36 |
| arj | Tak: is scirocco, 2006.39-14? | 23:37 |
| Tak | iirc | 23:37 |
| Tak | it's the latest 2006 release | 23:37 |
| arj | ok, I'm running that but it says mistral everywhere | 23:37 |
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| |tbb| | bbl | 23:48 |
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| minra | i am so paranoid someone is going to steal my 770 | 23:51 |
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| spect | minra: and where are you from? :) | 23:52 |
| minra | i am in germany, born in colorado, usa | 23:52 |
| minra | the germans have a saying "money alone does not make one happy" | 23:53 |
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| minra | to which i respond "you also need to know what to buy"w | 23:53 |
| spect | minra: Well i think in germany it's more safe to get outside with 770 :) | 23:53 |
| spect | minra: I'm from poland :P | 23:53 |
| Tak | it's ok - I'm in texas, and everybody thinks mine's a phone | 23:54 |
| Tak | and nobody would want to steal it because, by phone standards, it's huge and clunky | 23:54 |
| minra | yeah but dont they just drop dead when they see the screen? | 23:54 |
| Tak | sure, but the people I show it off to aren't people who will steal it | 23:55 |
| arj | :) | 23:56 |
| minra | spect, um... Milo pana | 23:56 |
| spect | minra: Miło pana poznać? - means nice to meet you:) | 23:57 |
| minra | i would love to port things to 770.... festival speech synth would be nice for wardriving | 23:58 |
| spect | minra: get scratchbox and rock on :) | 23:58 |
| minra | perl... dillo web browser... lopster opennap client... | 23:58 |
| minra | yeah i want to do it | 23:59 |
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