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| dashiad | Anyone here knows how the virtual keyboard sends key events to applications ?(specifically,xterm) | 01:53 |
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| meredydd | evening... | 04:16 |
| meredydd | Off the top of your heads, what's happening with the J2ME open-sourcing malarkey? | 04:17 |
| meredydd | Is there already a J2ME implemention under development for maemo? | 04:17 |
| dashiad | I read they compiled it for the Zaurus, so i guess getting it compiled shouldnt be difficult | 04:18 |
| meredydd | oh, absolutely not | 04:19 |
| meredydd | It's just a question of putting in the bindings for the funky Maemo GTK bits | 04:19 |
| dashiad | Well, i read they didnt had Swing, only AWT | 04:20 |
| meredydd | (and, of course, figuring out how to map javax.microedition.lcdui classes to Maemo UI elements will be non-trivial) | 04:20 |
| meredydd | Oh - I'm not talking about the full-strength JRE (although that would be cool, too) - I'm thinking of the cut-down micro-edition stuff that runs on phones | 04:21 |
| meredydd | For starters, it's smaller and lighter, and there are already a huge number of handheld applications available for J2ME, that will need no porting whatsoever for the UI, as they're already written with the idea of different "screens" rather than windows | 04:22 |
| dashiad | Does J2ME handle screens of 800x480? | 04:22 |
| meredydd | There's nothing in the spec to say it can't, and Nokia's chunky widescreens run commercially-available apps with few to no hiccups | 04:23 |
| meredydd | The 7710, I believe, pulls 640x in full-screen mode, which is what we do in "windowed" mode | 04:24 |
| dashiad | Lol, one of the decisions i liked most from Nokia, was pushing on Symbian programming as opposed to j2me...In fact, i want a Symbian OS emulator! | 04:24 |
| meredydd | Mmm...well, they started that way...and then they went and introduced bloody Series 60 v3, also known as Extreme Lockdown Edition(tm) | 04:25 |
| dashiad | Well, then i may be wrong..I thought i read about screen sizes, but that was loooong time ago | 04:25 |
| meredydd | You want to write files? Ooh, better get certification and a signing key... | 04:26 |
| meredydd | Or pay four figures for a developers' key that will only work on your phone, and then more to get it certified later... | 04:26 |
| dashiad | lol, yes, they like to have people controlled,lol.. | 04:26 |
| meredydd | (Yeah. One prematurely bitter, cynical mobile apps developer, at your service.) | 04:26 |
| meredydd | Hence my preference for Java. You can actually use it, without subscribing to someone else's pay-per-breath business model. | 04:27 |
| dashiad | Anyway, having a full linux, i prefer the old C and Php for it...I runned away from java some time ago :-P | 04:28 |
| meredydd | mmm...yeah. | 04:29 |
| meredydd | I've had the odd shot at developing pretty apps for maemo in C, but found it a bit of a slog | 04:29 |
| dashiad | Do you have any idea about the way the keyboar/localisation works on the 770? | 04:29 |
| meredydd | Yep - I ran headlong into that bastard when I was doing the TCL port. | 04:30 |
| dashiad | I've modified the keyboard mappings for my bluetooth keyboard, and managed to make spanish characters work in xterm, using xmodmap | 04:30 |
| meredydd | (and as for PHP - have considered it, actually. That browser could make a cool UI, even to a local app...) | 04:30 |
| meredydd | Nice. So, what's your issue? | 04:31 |
| dashiad | but, for some reason, in hildon apps, the ntilde doesnt show up | 04:31 |
| meredydd | How odd. Just that character, or all odd ones? | 04:31 |
| dashiad | i mean..for example, the character bar (|)<-- pipe , requires AltGr+7 , and shows up in hildon apps | 04:32 |
| dashiad | the ntilde, requires AltGr + g ...And doesnt show up | 04:32 |
| dashiad | Uses the same modifier...but..doesnt show up | 04:32 |
| dashiad | BUT it shows up when using the virtual keyboard.. | 04:33 |
| dashiad | Any clue? :-P | 04:33 |
| meredydd | Humm. | 04:33 |
| meredydd | I think you may be into deep localisation voodoo, well beyond my ken, I'm afraid. | 04:33 |
| Robot101 | meredydd: why don't you do some l33t telepathy hacking? :D | 04:34 |
| meredydd | Frankly, Robot101, because right now I'm burnt out on IM stuff. | 04:35 |
| Robot101 | :( | 04:35 |
| meredydd | iMessenger is nice, but the extension stuff just keeps coming (fun announcements in the next few weeks) | 04:35 |
| dashiad | :-/ | 04:36 |
| Robot101 | imessenger? | 04:36 |
| Robot101 | google is ambiguous | 04:36 |
| meredydd | sun imessenger | 04:36 |
| meredydd | Philippine mobile IM service | 04:36 |
| meredydd | (and yes, I sincerely apologise for the website copy. Marketing is nothing to do with me.) | 04:37 |
| Robot101 | ah right. wouldn't it be better to hack on some open stuff /and/ get paid handsomely for it? :) | 04:37 |
| meredydd | Open stuff, yes. | 04:38 |
| meredydd | However, open IM stuff suffers from network effects that aren't about to go away (not to mention outright technological inferiority in many ways) | 04:38 |
| Robot101 | I was thinking open implementations, not necessarily protocols. | 04:39 |
| meredydd | and so working on IM is either a closeted world with no mass-market appeal, or a frustrating, head-against-wall encounter with openly hostile service providers | 04:39 |
| meredydd | Hence burnout. | 04:39 |
| Robot101 | or working on an enlightened system which could address both camps' requirements? :) | 04:40 |
| meredydd | ? | 04:40 |
| meredydd | Go on, pitch to me. I reserve the right to be heavily skeptical, but pitch anyway. | 04:40 |
| Robot101 | well, I'm sure I've mentioned it to you before | 04:40 |
| Robot101 | but I've spent the past 15 (eep!) months or so working full-time on Telepathy | 04:41 |
| meredydd | yep. | 04:41 |
| Robot101 | an IM/VOIP service abstraction on D-Bus, using language/license/whatever independent protocol backends to establish your connections (shared between frontend processes if you desire) | 04:42 |
| meredydd | I know what Telepathy is - I remember you first pitching it | 04:42 |
| meredydd | (and confidently assuring you that it would never work, and the world of open-source IM would never accept it...) | 04:42 |
| meredydd | (I neglected to account, it would appear, for an altruistic soul who would actually fund it! :D ) | 04:43 |
| Robot101 | it seems to be working fine, and there are people hacking on Gossip and Kopete to use it as a backend, as well as several other clients | 04:43 |
| Robot101 | we could actually use more good hackers to make more bits of it work | 04:43 |
| Robot101 | we're a bit lacking on the yahoo & AIM/ICQ backends, and the MSN one is in python which could limit server-side/embedded uptake | 04:44 |
| meredydd | Mmhmm. So I hear. Believe me, that comment was intended in the same vein as people who recount the tales of when they turned down a job application from Richard Branson, or similar :) | 04:44 |
| meredydd | Mmmm. Well, I've actually ended up doing something remarkably similar for iMessenger | 04:44 |
| meredydd | (not as elegant, nice, or portable, mind) | 04:45 |
| Robot101 | so where's the source code? :) | 04:45 |
| meredydd | so I do have half a mind to go implement something like that, based on Telepathy instead | 04:45 |
| Robot101 | yay | 04:45 |
| buck68 | does gizmo relate to telpathy/farsight at all? | 04:56 |
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| Robot101 | buck68: no | 05:15 |
| dashiad | Hmm..Has anyone used php-gtk on the 770? | 05:37 |
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| shapr | meredydd: Who's Richard Branson? | 05:42 |
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| MSchoen | Hello all. | 06:16 |
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| rillian | shapr: Richard Branson is the head of the virgin.com | 08:30 |
| rillian | Robot101: so I remain a little confused about Telepathy | 08:30 |
| rillian | I was doing some work on xmpp last year | 08:31 |
| rillian | and noticed that it has all the facilities for intelligent push of data and change notification | 08:31 |
| rillian | (rss without the polling is just one example) | 08:31 |
| rillian | but that there was no reasonable way to implement that | 08:32 |
| rillian | because really you should use a custom resource on a user's login | 08:32 |
| rillian | but it's some random chat client that squats on that | 08:32 |
| rillian | so does Telepathy handle that sort of thing? | 08:33 |
| rillian | Like could my rss reader you it to get change notifications from random servers through my jabber.org account without interfering with other bits? | 08:33 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:43 |
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| koen | hey Jaffa | 10:47 |
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| AD-N770 | good morning | 11:30 |
| tigert | morning | 11:31 |
| inz | morning | 11:32 |
| tigert | morning! | 11:34 |
| part | not-so-very-good morning | 11:35 |
| * dwd grunts | 11:51 | |
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| Robot101 | rillian: your RSS reader could just connect normally, or a telepathy interface could be made for that, so that your RSS reader would work on other protocols that had similar systems | 12:56 |
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| dwd | Robot101: Hiya. Do you know if the Python Telepathy stuff should work on the 770 out of the box? | 13:06 |
| Robot101 | how do you mean out of the box? | 13:06 |
| Robot101 | you can install python onto it, and run arbitrary stuff | 13:07 |
| dwd | Robot101: Yeah, I've got quite a bit of Python stuff done. I was just contemplating putting a telepathy interface (client and server, probably) onto my addressbook code. | 13:07 |
| Robot101 | dwd: I was wondering if you'd be interested in what we were doing :) | 13:08 |
| dwd | Robot101: Natch. I like to keep abreast of what fellow LUG members are up to. :-) | 13:09 |
| Robot101 | I saw you on standards-jig too :) | 13:09 |
| * Robot101 accidentally turned into a XEP author | 13:10 | |
| * Robot101 didn't anticipate that :D | 13:10 | |
| dwd | Robot101: I see your XEP and raise you an RFC. :-) (RFC4731, published last week) | 13:11 |
| Robot101 | oooh :) | 13:12 |
| Robot101 | I badgered the hell out of Jingle and it's still a bit crap tbh | 13:12 |
| Robot101 | it could do with making streams unique by initiator | 13:12 |
| dwd | Robot101: Pragmatically crap, though - my brother's into VOIP in a big way, he says that Jingle is the most reliable one he's used. | 13:12 |
| Robot101 | he's probably talking about gtalk, which isn't jingle at all | 13:13 |
| dwd | Oh, isn't it? | 13:13 |
| Robot101 | libjingle in helpfully not actually implementing jingle... :P | 13:13 |
| dwd | Oh... That's, erm, entertaining. | 13:13 |
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| Robot101 | the signalling is similar-ish, but less flexible. | 13:13 |
| Robot101 | the thing that makes it reliable is google's ICE knock-off | 13:13 |
| dwd | Robot101: OIC. So gtalk is Jingle v0.X, sorta thing? | 13:14 |
| Robot101 | which is also not ICE compatible | 13:14 |
| Robot101 | yeah | 13:14 |
| Robot101 | gabble implements gtalk alongside real jingle | 13:14 |
| Robot101 | without too much ugliness | 13:14 |
| Robot101 | but jingle gets a lot more complicated, you can add/remove streams, have multiple transports, change the senders (you, them, both), etc | 13:14 |
| dwd | Does gabble live on the desktop, too? I've been using gaim, but I've found I'm only using XMPP, and could do with Jingle/gtalk (to talk to my mum, of all things). | 13:15 |
| Robot101 | that's the plan, the best hope at the moment for GNOMEy sorts is the Gossip+Telepathy branch | 13:15 |
| * dwd is GNOMEy. | 13:15 | |
| Robot101 | it's quite magic, it's like this stuff actually works :) | 13:16 |
| Robot101 | you can use Gossip to sign in to IRC, XMPP and MSN via Telepathy | 13:16 |
| dwd | Robot101: Yeah, I got a similar feeling when I started putting together my email client on the 770, and the config magically appeared through the ether via ACAP. I still haven't bothered writing a config interface for it yet. | 13:17 |
| florian_kc | good morning | 13:17 |
| Robot101 | florian_kc: word | 13:17 |
| florian_kc | Robot101: no, i use OpenOffice ;-) | 13:18 |
| Robot101 | tschh | 13:18 |
| florian_kc | hey, its monday :-) | 13:19 |
| dwd | Robot101: What I'm thinking of doing is having a telepathy service for ACAP addressbooks, you see, plus allow my little email client to access contacts through Telepathy. | 13:19 |
| Veggen | dwd: hmm - better email client than the builtin? (if so, I'm interested :-) | 13:19 |
| Robot101 | dwd: interesting | 13:19 |
| Veggen | ..except that I need to have my 770 on service. The "white screen of death"-thingy. | 13:20 |
| Veggen | (it died on saturday) | 13:20 |
| Robot101 | dwd: the 770 has a process which bidirectionally syncs all of your telepathy contacts with your address book | 13:20 |
| dwd | Veggen: Better for some values of better. It's IMAP only, but supports full Lemonade (ie, IETF standardized mobile email profile, RFC4550), plus rather more, plus it supports full roaming (configuration and addressbooks) via ACAP. | 13:20 |
| dwd | Veggen: So if you want to read a POP3 account, you're stuffed. (Unless you also have a POP3 Lemonade gateway, of course). | 13:21 |
| Veggen | dwd: I never figured out where to specify the folder - other than inbox - to read, on the builtin client. | 13:21 |
| dwd | Veggen: As I understand things, you don't. | 13:22 |
| Veggen | I actually don't use the inbox at all, that way, in my maildir. | 13:22 |
| Veggen | ...so for me, the builtin was kinda useless :) | 13:22 |
| dwd | Veggen: You have IMAP? | 13:22 |
| Veggen | yes. | 13:22 |
| dwd | Veggen: Which server? | 13:22 |
| Veggen | I use courier. | 13:23 |
| dwd | Veggen: Oh, I thought you said IMAP. | 13:23 |
| Robot101 | youch :P | 13:23 |
| * Robot101 uses dovecot :) | 13:23 | |
| Veggen | Robot101: It works reasonably well that I haven't bothered to switch... | 13:23 |
| Robot101 | it's shit compared to dovecot, and as dwd implies, has some "issues" actually implementing the IMAP standard | 13:24 |
| dwd | Veggen: Seriously, my library does work against Courier, but it loses efficiency because Courier doesn't follow RFC3501 quite right. In particular, it doesn't issue UIDNEXT during SELECT, for example, which causes intelligent clients to have to issue more commands. | 13:24 |
| Robot101 | dovecot is hella fast in comparison anyway :) | 13:25 |
| Veggen | hmm. dovecot easy to set up? As drop-in-replacement to courier? | 13:25 |
| Veggen | dwd: And does your mail-client handle imaps? I hate cleartext things. | 13:26 |
| dwd | Robot101: Faster. The fastest open-source server remains Cyrus. The fastest server overall is Isode M-Box. | 13:26 |
| mgedmin | dovecot is the easiest there is | 13:26 |
| mgedmin | for serving your existing unix mail accounts over IMAP/TLS | 13:26 |
| Robot101 | if you're just using courier as an IMAP server, yes. you can set up dovecot userdbs and passdbs, and teach it to have the same annoying namespace as courier, and even copy the msg uuids over | 13:26 |
| mgedmin | never tried it with virtual mailboxes | 13:26 |
| Robot101 | mgedmin: similarly easy :) | 13:26 |
| Robot101 | dwd: cyrus scares me though. it has a big crazy database and goes lalala whee with your mail and stuff. :D | 13:26 |
| dwd | Veggen: It handles STARTTLS. It has some limited support for "IMAPS", and it supports DIGEST-MD5 (with integrity layers, but not encryption). | 13:27 |
| Veggen | mgedmin: Well..doesn't matter, I only have me, two brothers and a sister-in-law as users ;-) | 13:27 |
| dwd | Robot101: Yeah. And if you lose your cache files you have to play with weird commandline stuff. | 13:27 |
| Robot101 | dwd: also when I was evaluating it I was trying to do virtual hosting, which was a big no... | 13:27 |
| Robot101 | dovecot now provides a LDA which can run sieve filters, and updates dovecot's cache with the messages it delivers | 13:28 |
| Veggen | hmm. christmas project, maybe. | 13:28 |
| dwd | Robot101: It does virtual hosting, I think. Pretty crazy stuff, IIRC. | 13:29 |
| Robot101 | dwd: it was namespace mangling and all sorts of crack, and a real bitch to admin | 13:31 |
| dwd | Veggen: But anyway... Telomer (my little email client) has no config interface at all (but you can configure Polymer, my little desktop one, and it'll "just know"), and no method for sending email (I need to finished the composer UI) or flags/tags (likewise). | 13:31 |
| dwd | Robot101: Yes, I can vaguely remember that serious amounts of hard drugs were required to understand what the hell was going on. | 13:32 |
| Robot101 | dwd: yeah | 13:32 |
| Robot101 | http://nocodingoncrack.org/ :D | 13:33 |
| tigert | thats oooold :) | 13:36 |
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| Jaffa | Err, odd. | 13:53 |
| Jaffa | 770's lost about 3 weeks. | 13:53 |
| Jaffa | Thinks it's the 3rd November. | 13:54 |
| dwd | Jaffa: Maybe you inadvertantly left it near a supermassive object? I keep on doing that with the blackhole in the kitchen. Really annoying. | 13:55 |
| Jaffa | Handy though when you don't want to listen to the mother-in-law. | 13:56 |
| dwd | Jaffa: And it saves me taking the bin bags out. | 13:56 |
| Jaffa | "Feed me, Seymour!" | 13:56 |
| dwd | Jaffa: Black holes are not normally sentient. And they fuck up the lighting more than an oversized carnivorous plant, too. | 13:59 |
| Jaffa | Ah, you need the Quantum Singularity v2.1 upgrade: it taps in to a pan-dimensional mouse's intellect and connects it to a supermassive object of your choice. | 14:02 |
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| suihkulokki | grr.. now I have to suffer Martin Guys insults on maemo-devel as well | 17:06 |
| koen | suihkulokki: that's what I thought yesterday as well | 17:06 |
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| dashiad | Any kbdd developer here? | 17:21 |
| koen | dashiad: no, but you can try mailing nils@linuxtogo.org | 17:23 |
| dashiad | great!thx! | 17:24 |
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| perkristian | anyone knows of an rsync package for 2006? | 19:18 |
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| Jaffa | perkristian: yes, it's on the ApplicationCatalog which is why I've not updated mine. | 19:27 |
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| tko | http://dmz.pp.fi/niksit/ :) | 19:46 |
| Tak | the chopsticks one is just lazy | 19:49 |
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| Veggen | hmm..sending the 770 for repair, can you (in theory) drop it off in person at an authorized Nokia dealer? | 19:58 |
| shapr | yay - http://direct.nokia.com/Product.aspx?model=navkit | 19:59 |
| Tak | I love the items in "Hacks and Apps Gallery" that have screenshots of the desktop | 20:01 |
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| shapr | Only worrisome thing about the navkit is the DVD with software... is it windows specific? | 20:03 |
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| rillian | Robot101: no, no. I want to piggy back on an existing connection so we don't have 90% of xmpp accounts being bots. Failing that, being able to spawn a new connection for the same account (different resource) would do | 20:34 |
| Robot101 | rillian: yes... you can just connect multiple times with different resources. | 20:36 |
| Robot101 | rillian: but telepathy also allows multiple apps to share the same connection (ie the same resource) for different tasks | 20:36 |
| rillian | ah, excellent | 20:36 |
| rillian | is there a whitepaper or something that describes how that works? | 20:37 |
| Robot101 | no, just bits and bobs on telepathy.freedesktop.org | 20:37 |
| Robot101 | there are some slides, an overview, the d-bus spec... | 20:37 |
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| rillian | yeah, I had trouble figuring much out from that | 20:39 |
| rillian | I wasn't too worried because freedesktop projects are usually clueful | 20:40 |
| rillian | but it was still hard to get excited :) | 20:40 |
| Robot101 | wel... | 20:40 |
| * Robot101 runs around screaming and waving his hands :) | 20:40 | |
| rillian | easy for you, you've read the code | 20:42 |
| Robot101 | the basic idea is that you ask a connection manager (one for one or more protocols) for connection objects which represent a connection to each of your IM accounts | 20:43 |
| Robot101 | these objects are accessible by many processes because they're on your d-bus session bus | 20:43 |
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| Robot101 | you can ask it for information from that connection, like presence of which contacts are callable/whatever | 20:45 |
| Robot101 | *presence or | 20:45 |
| rillian | hmm. so anything on the session dbus is inherently trusted? | 20:45 |
| Robot101 | yes, same that stuff running as your user could eg strace anything else running as you and make it do arbitrary stuff :D | 20:45 |
| Tak | so how do I go about getting my packages added to one of the maemo garage repos? | 20:47 |
| tko | Tak, https://maemo.org/maemowiki/ExtrasRepository | 20:48 |
| Tak | thanks! | 20:49 |
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| rillian | Robot101: right :) | 20:52 |
| rillian | hi buck68 | 20:53 |
| * rillian is also in vancouver | 20:53 | |
| Robot101 | anyway, from these connection objects, you can get channels which can represent calls or IM sessions or whatever | 20:53 |
| rillian | ok. and can I then send raw xmpp stanzas through the object? | 20:57 |
| Robot101 | no | 21:00 |
| Robot101 | it's meant to be a protocol abstraction | 21:00 |
| Robot101 | people keep asking if they can do arbitrary insane XMPP-specific stuff though | 21:01 |
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| rillian | well, it's fine as long has the abstraction layer supports your particular thingie | 21:01 |
| Robot101 | the abstraction is arbitrarily extensible | 21:01 |
| rillian | but one of the major advantages of xmpp is its flexibility in that regard | 21:01 |
| rillian | so I'd suggest a raw mode | 21:01 |
| rillian | useful for protocol development in any case | 21:02 |
| Robot101 | so there's nothing stopping you adding a CrackHatRawXMPP interface | 21:02 |
| rillian | hah | 21:03 |
| rillian | (with xmpp you still need a library to ensure you're creating legal stanzas, but otherwise xml is xml) | 21:04 |
| rillian | Robot101: thanks | 21:04 |
| Robot101 | it irks me that people have so many hypothetical extensions to XMPP that they couldn't possibly consider writing telepathy interfaces for any of them | 21:07 |
| Robot101 | but then again, telepathy is trying to commoditise IM protocols, and XMPP is trying to differentiate itself as powerful and enlightened, so it's not surprising there's some culture shock | 21:08 |
| rillian | sure | 21:09 |
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| rillian | are there any free-software-only device images around? | 23:44 |
| ||cw | there used to be a build of familiar | 23:48 |
| ||cw | main issue is that not all the drivers are "free" | 23:48 |
| rillian | can you be more specific? | 23:49 |
| rillian | what doesn't with only available source | 23:49 |
| rillian | and what's non-free? | 23:49 |
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| * rillian notices things like libvte in scirocco/non-free | 23:52 | |
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