IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2006-11-20

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dashiadAnyone here knows how the virtual keyboard sends key events to applications ?(specifically,xterm)01:53
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meredyddOff the top of your heads, what's happening with the J2ME open-sourcing malarkey?04:17
meredyddIs there already a J2ME implemention under development for maemo?04:17
dashiadI read they compiled it for the Zaurus, so i guess getting it compiled shouldnt be difficult04:18
meredyddoh, absolutely not04:19
meredyddIt's just a question of putting in the bindings for the funky Maemo GTK bits04:19
dashiadWell, i read they didnt had Swing, only AWT04:20
meredydd(and, of course, figuring out how to map javax.microedition.lcdui classes to Maemo UI elements will be non-trivial)04:20
meredyddOh - I'm not talking about the full-strength JRE (although that would be cool, too) - I'm thinking of the cut-down micro-edition stuff that runs on phones04:21
meredyddFor starters, it's smaller and lighter, and there are already a huge number of handheld applications available for J2ME, that will need no porting whatsoever for the UI, as they're already written with the idea of different "screens" rather than windows04:22
dashiadDoes  J2ME handle screens of 800x480?04:22
meredyddThere's nothing in the spec to say it can't, and Nokia's chunky widescreens run commercially-available apps with few to no hiccups04:23
meredyddThe 7710, I believe, pulls 640x in full-screen mode, which is what we do in "windowed" mode04:24
dashiadLol, one of the decisions i liked most from Nokia, was pushing on Symbian  programming as opposed to j2me...In fact, i want a Symbian OS emulator!04:24
meredyddMmm...well, they started that way...and then they went and introduced bloody Series 60 v3, also known as Extreme Lockdown Edition(tm)04:25
dashiadWell, then i may be wrong..I thought i read about screen sizes, but that was loooong time ago04:25
meredyddYou want to write files? Ooh, better get certification and a signing key...04:26
meredyddOr pay four figures for a developers' key that will only work on your phone, and then more to get it certified later...04:26
dashiadlol, yes, they like to have people controlled,lol..04:26
meredydd(Yeah. One prematurely bitter, cynical mobile apps developer, at your service.)04:26
meredyddHence my preference for Java. You can actually use it, without subscribing to someone else's pay-per-breath business model.04:27
dashiadAnyway, having a full linux, i prefer the old C and Php for it...I runned away from java some time ago :-P04:28
meredyddI've had the odd shot at developing pretty apps for maemo in C, but found it a bit of a slog04:29
dashiadDo you have any idea about the way the keyboar/localisation works on the 770?04:29
meredyddYep - I ran headlong into that bastard when I was doing the TCL port.04:30
dashiadI've modified the keyboard mappings for my bluetooth keyboard, and managed to make spanish characters work in xterm, using xmodmap04:30
meredydd(and as for PHP - have considered it, actually. That browser could make a cool UI, even to a local app...)04:30
meredyddNice. So, what's your issue?04:31
dashiadbut, for some reason, in hildon apps, the ntilde doesnt show up04:31
meredyddHow odd. Just that character, or all odd ones?04:31
dashiadi mean..for example, the character bar (|)<-- pipe , requires AltGr+7 , and shows up in hildon apps04:32
dashiadthe ntilde, requires AltGr + g ...And doesnt show up04:32
dashiadUses the same modifier...but..doesnt show up04:32
dashiadBUT it shows up when using the virtual keyboard..04:33
dashiadAny clue? :-P04:33
meredyddI think you may be into deep localisation voodoo, well beyond my ken, I'm afraid.04:33
Robot101meredydd: why don't you do some l33t telepathy hacking? :D04:34
meredyddFrankly, Robot101, because right now I'm burnt out on IM stuff.04:35
meredyddiMessenger is nice, but the extension stuff just keeps coming (fun announcements in the next few weeks)04:35
Robot101google is ambiguous04:36
meredyddsun imessenger04:36
meredyddPhilippine mobile IM service04:36
meredydd(and yes, I sincerely apologise for the website copy. Marketing is nothing to do with me.)04:37
Robot101ah right. wouldn't it be better to hack on some open stuff /and/ get paid handsomely for it? :)04:37
meredyddOpen stuff, yes.04:38
meredyddHowever, open IM stuff suffers from network effects that aren't about to go away (not to mention outright technological inferiority in many ways)04:38
Robot101I was thinking open implementations, not necessarily protocols.04:39
meredyddand so working on IM is either a closeted world with no mass-market appeal, or a frustrating, head-against-wall encounter with openly hostile service providers04:39
meredyddHence burnout.04:39
Robot101or working on an enlightened system which could address both camps' requirements? :)04:40
meredyddGo on, pitch to me. I reserve the right to be heavily skeptical, but pitch anyway.04:40
Robot101well, I'm sure I've mentioned it to you before04:40
Robot101but I've spent the past 15 (eep!) months or so working full-time on Telepathy04:41
Robot101an IM/VOIP service abstraction on D-Bus, using language/license/whatever independent protocol backends to establish your connections (shared between frontend processes if you desire)04:42
meredyddI know what Telepathy is - I remember you first pitching it04:42
meredydd(and confidently assuring you that it would never work, and the world of open-source IM would never accept it...)04:42
meredydd(I neglected to account, it would appear, for an altruistic soul who would actually fund it! :D )04:43
Robot101it seems to be working fine, and there are people hacking on Gossip and Kopete to use it as a backend, as well as several other clients04:43
Robot101we could actually use more good hackers to make more bits of it work04:43
Robot101we're a bit lacking on the yahoo & AIM/ICQ backends, and the MSN one is in python which could limit server-side/embedded uptake04:44
meredyddMmhmm. So I hear. Believe me, that comment was intended in the same vein as people who recount the tales of when they turned down a job application from Richard Branson, or similar :)04:44
meredyddMmmm. Well, I've actually ended up doing something remarkably similar for iMessenger04:44
meredydd(not as elegant, nice, or portable, mind)04:45
Robot101so where's the source code? :)04:45
meredyddso I do have half a mind to go implement something like that, based on Telepathy instead04:45
buck68does gizmo relate to telpathy/farsight at all?04:56
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Robot101buck68: no05:15
dashiadHmm..Has anyone used php-gtk on the 770?05:37
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shaprmeredydd: Who's Richard Branson?05:42
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MSchoenHello all.06:16
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rillianshapr: Richard Branson is the head of the virgin.com08:30
rillianRobot101: so I remain a little confused about Telepathy08:30
rillianI was doing some work on xmpp last year08:31
rillianand noticed that it has all the facilities for intelligent push of data and change notification08:31
rillian(rss without the polling is just one example)08:31
rillianbut that there was no reasonable way to implement that08:32
rillianbecause really you should use a custom resource on a user's login08:32
rillianbut it's some random chat client that squats on that08:32
rillianso does Telepathy handle that sort of thing?08:33
rillianLike could my rss reader you it to get change notifications from random servers through my account without interfering with other bits?08:33
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JaffaMorning, all10:43
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koenhey Jaffa10:47
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AD-N770good morning11:30
partnot-so-very-good morning11:35
* dwd grunts11:51
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Robot101rillian: your RSS reader could just connect normally, or a telepathy interface could be made for that, so that your RSS reader would work on other protocols that had similar systems12:56
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dwdRobot101: Hiya. Do you know if the Python Telepathy stuff should work on the 770 out of the box?13:06
Robot101how do you mean out of the box?13:06
Robot101you can install python onto it, and run arbitrary stuff13:07
dwdRobot101: Yeah, I've got quite a bit of Python stuff done. I was just contemplating putting a telepathy interface (client and server, probably) onto my addressbook code.13:07
Robot101dwd: I was wondering if you'd be interested in what we were doing :)13:08
dwdRobot101: Natch. I like to keep abreast of what fellow LUG members are up to. :-)13:09
Robot101I saw you on standards-jig too :)13:09
* Robot101 accidentally turned into a XEP author13:10
* Robot101 didn't anticipate that :D13:10
dwdRobot101: I see your XEP and raise you an RFC. :-) (RFC4731, published last week)13:11
Robot101oooh :)13:12
Robot101I badgered the hell out of Jingle and it's still a bit crap tbh13:12
Robot101it could do with making streams unique by initiator13:12
dwdRobot101: Pragmatically crap, though - my brother's into VOIP in a big way, he says that Jingle is the most reliable one he's used.13:12
Robot101he's probably talking about gtalk, which isn't jingle at all13:13
dwdOh, isn't it?13:13
Robot101libjingle in helpfully not actually implementing jingle... :P13:13
dwdOh... That's, erm, entertaining.13:13
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Robot101the signalling is similar-ish, but less flexible.13:13
Robot101the thing that makes it reliable is google's ICE knock-off13:13
dwdRobot101: OIC. So gtalk is Jingle v0.X, sorta thing?13:14
Robot101which is also not ICE compatible13:14
Robot101gabble implements gtalk alongside real jingle13:14
Robot101without too much ugliness13:14
Robot101but jingle gets a lot more complicated, you can add/remove streams, have multiple transports, change the senders (you, them, both), etc13:14
dwdDoes gabble live on the desktop, too? I've been using gaim, but I've found I'm only using XMPP, and could do with Jingle/gtalk (to talk to my mum, of all things).13:15
Robot101that's the plan, the best hope at the moment for GNOMEy sorts is the Gossip+Telepathy branch13:15
* dwd is GNOMEy.13:15
Robot101it's quite magic, it's like this stuff actually works :)13:16
Robot101you can use Gossip to sign in to IRC, XMPP and MSN via Telepathy13:16
dwdRobot101: Yeah, I got a similar feeling when I started putting together my email client on the 770, and the config magically appeared through the ether via ACAP. I still haven't bothered writing a config interface for it yet.13:17
florian_kcgood morning13:17
Robot101florian_kc: word13:17
florian_kcRobot101: no, i use OpenOffice ;-)13:18
florian_kchey, its monday :-)13:19
dwdRobot101: What I'm thinking of doing is having a telepathy service for ACAP addressbooks, you see, plus allow my little email client to access contacts through Telepathy.13:19
Veggendwd: hmm - better email client than the builtin? (if so, I'm interested :-)13:19
Robot101dwd: interesting13:19
Veggen..except that I need to have my 770 on service. The "white screen of death"-thingy.13:20
Veggen(it died on saturday)13:20
Robot101dwd: the 770 has a process which bidirectionally syncs all of your telepathy contacts with your address book13:20
dwdVeggen: Better for some values of better. It's IMAP only, but supports full Lemonade (ie, IETF standardized mobile email profile, RFC4550), plus rather more, plus it supports full roaming (configuration and addressbooks) via ACAP.13:20
dwdVeggen: So if you want to read a POP3 account, you're stuffed. (Unless you also have a POP3 Lemonade gateway, of course).13:21
Veggendwd: I never figured out where to specify the folder - other than inbox - to read, on the builtin client.13:21
dwdVeggen: As I understand things, you don't.13:22
VeggenI actually don't use the inbox at all, that way, in my maildir.13:22 for me, the builtin was kinda useless :)13:22
dwdVeggen: You have IMAP?13:22
dwdVeggen: Which server?13:22
VeggenI use courier.13:23
dwdVeggen: Oh, I thought you said IMAP.13:23
Robot101youch :P13:23
* Robot101 uses dovecot :)13:23
VeggenRobot101: It works reasonably well that I haven't bothered to switch...13:23
Robot101it's shit compared to dovecot, and as dwd implies, has some "issues" actually implementing the IMAP standard13:24
dwdVeggen: Seriously, my library does work against Courier, but it loses efficiency because Courier doesn't follow RFC3501 quite right. In particular, it doesn't issue UIDNEXT during SELECT, for example, which causes intelligent clients to have to issue more commands.13:24
Robot101dovecot is hella fast in comparison anyway :)13:25
Veggenhmm. dovecot easy to set up? As drop-in-replacement to courier?13:25
Veggendwd: And does your mail-client handle imaps? I hate cleartext things.13:26
dwdRobot101: Faster. The fastest open-source server remains Cyrus. The fastest server overall is Isode M-Box.13:26
mgedmindovecot is the easiest there is13:26
mgedminfor serving your existing unix mail accounts over IMAP/TLS13:26
Robot101if you're just using courier as an IMAP server, yes. you can set up dovecot userdbs and passdbs, and teach it to have the same annoying namespace as courier, and even copy the msg uuids over13:26
mgedminnever tried it with virtual mailboxes13:26
Robot101mgedmin: similarly easy :)13:26
Robot101dwd: cyrus scares me though. it has a big crazy database and goes lalala whee with your mail and stuff. :D13:26
dwdVeggen: It handles STARTTLS. It has some limited support for "IMAPS", and it supports DIGEST-MD5 (with integrity layers, but not encryption).13:27
Veggenmgedmin: Well..doesn't matter, I only have me, two brothers and a sister-in-law as users ;-)13:27
dwdRobot101: Yeah. And if you lose your cache files you have to play with weird commandline stuff.13:27
Robot101dwd: also when I was evaluating it I was trying to do virtual hosting, which was a big no...13:27
Robot101dovecot now provides a LDA which can run sieve filters, and updates dovecot's cache with the messages it delivers13:28
Veggenhmm. christmas project, maybe.13:28
dwdRobot101: It does virtual hosting, I think. Pretty crazy stuff, IIRC.13:29
Robot101dwd: it was namespace mangling and all sorts of crack, and a real bitch to admin13:31
dwdVeggen: But anyway... Telomer (my little email client) has no config interface at all (but you can configure Polymer, my little desktop one, and it'll "just know"), and no method for sending email (I need to finished the composer UI) or flags/tags (likewise).13:31
dwdRobot101: Yes, I can vaguely remember that serious amounts of hard drugs were required to understand what the hell was going on.13:32
Robot101dwd: yeah13:32
Robot101 :D13:33
tigertthats oooold :)13:36
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JaffaErr, odd.13:53
Jaffa770's lost about 3 weeks.13:53
JaffaThinks it's the 3rd November.13:54
dwdJaffa: Maybe you inadvertantly left it near a supermassive object? I keep on doing that with the blackhole in the kitchen. Really annoying.13:55
JaffaHandy though when you don't want to listen to the mother-in-law.13:56
dwdJaffa: And it saves me taking the bin bags out.13:56
Jaffa"Feed me, Seymour!"13:56
dwdJaffa: Black holes are not normally sentient. And they fuck up the lighting more than an oversized carnivorous plant, too.13:59
JaffaAh, you need the Quantum Singularity v2.1 upgrade: it taps in to a pan-dimensional mouse's intellect and connects it to a supermassive object of your choice.14:02
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suihkulokkigrr.. now I have to suffer Martin Guys insults on maemo-devel as well17:06
koensuihkulokki: that's what I thought yesterday as well17:06
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dashiadAny kbdd developer here?17:21
koendashiad: no, but you can try mailing nils@linuxtogo.org17:23
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perkristiananyone knows of an rsync package for 2006?19:18
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Jaffaperkristian: yes, it's on the ApplicationCatalog which is why I've not updated mine.19:27
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tko :)19:46
Takthe chopsticks one is just lazy19:49
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Veggenhmm..sending the 770 for repair, can you (in theory) drop it off in person at an authorized Nokia dealer?19:58
shapryay -
TakI love the items in "Hacks and Apps Gallery" that have screenshots of the desktop20:01
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shaprOnly worrisome thing about the navkit is the DVD with software... is it windows specific?20:03
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rillianRobot101: no, no. I want to piggy back on an existing connection so we don't have 90% of xmpp accounts being bots. Failing that, being able to spawn a new connection for the same account (different resource) would do20:34
Robot101rillian: yes... you can just connect multiple times with different resources.20:36
Robot101rillian: but telepathy also allows multiple apps to share the same connection (ie the same resource) for different tasks20:36
rillianah, excellent20:36
rillianis there a whitepaper or something that describes how that works?20:37
Robot101no, just bits and bobs on telepathy.freedesktop.org20:37
Robot101there are some slides, an overview, the d-bus spec...20:37
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rillianyeah, I had trouble figuring much out from that20:39
rillianI wasn't too worried because freedesktop projects are usually clueful20:40
rillianbut it was still hard to get excited :)20:40
* Robot101 runs around screaming and waving his hands :)20:40
rillianeasy for you, you've read the code20:42
Robot101the basic idea is that you ask a connection manager (one for one or more protocols) for connection objects which represent a connection to each of your IM accounts20:43
Robot101these objects are accessible by many processes because they're on your d-bus session bus20:43
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Robot101you can ask it for information from that connection, like presence of which contacts are callable/whatever20:45
Robot101*presence or20:45
rillianhmm. so anything on the session dbus is inherently trusted?20:45
Robot101yes, same that stuff running as your user could eg strace anything else running as you and make it do arbitrary stuff :D20:45
Takso how do I go about getting my packages added to one of the maemo garage repos?20:47
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rillianRobot101: right :)20:52
rillianhi buck6820:53
* rillian is also in vancouver20:53
Robot101anyway, from these connection objects, you can get channels which can represent calls or IM sessions or whatever20:53
rillianok. and can I then send raw xmpp stanzas through the object?20:57
Robot101it's meant to be a protocol abstraction21:00
Robot101people keep asking if they can do arbitrary insane XMPP-specific stuff though21:01
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rillianwell, it's fine as long has the abstraction layer supports your particular thingie21:01
Robot101the abstraction is arbitrarily extensible21:01
rillianbut one of the major advantages of xmpp is its flexibility in that regard21:01
rillianso I'd suggest a raw mode21:01
rillianuseful for protocol development in any case21:02
Robot101so there's nothing stopping you adding a CrackHatRawXMPP interface21:02
rillian(with xmpp you still need a library to ensure you're creating legal stanzas, but otherwise xml is xml)21:04
rillianRobot101: thanks21:04
Robot101it irks me that people have so many hypothetical extensions to XMPP that they couldn't possibly consider writing telepathy interfaces for any of them21:07
Robot101but then again, telepathy is trying to commoditise IM protocols, and XMPP is trying to differentiate itself as powerful and enlightened, so it's not surprising there's some culture shock21:08
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rillianare there any free-software-only device images around?23:44
||cwthere used to be a build of familiar23:48
||cwmain issue is that not all the drivers are "free"23:48
rilliancan you be more specific?23:49
rillianwhat doesn't with only available source23:49
rillianand what's non-free?23:49
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* rillian notices things like libvte in scirocco/non-free23:52
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