IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2006-11-17

*** sp3000 has quit IRC00:01
Fatalbut remember to wear pants00:02
*** X-Fade has joined #maemo00:04
*** luck has quit IRC00:04
*** bilboed has quit IRC00:06
*** waite has left #maemo00:11
*** florian has joined #maemo00:15
*** izzy has joined #maemo00:16
*** Ryback_ has quit IRC00:17
*** snorkelyd has left #maemo00:18
*** etrunko_lap has quit IRC00:22
*** Piega` has joined #maemo00:31
*** vanhoofp has joined #maemo00:45
*** vanhoofp has quit IRC00:46
*** vanhoofp has joined #maemo00:47
*** pvanhoof has quit IRC00:50
*** vanhoofp is now known as pvanhoof00:50
*** shapr has joined #maemo00:51
*** Tak has quit IRC01:04
*** Tak has joined #maemo01:11
*** matt_c has quit IRC01:22
* shapr boings01:28
*** Tak has quit IRC01:29
*** florian has quit IRC01:38
*** florian has joined #maemo01:39
*** rev has quit IRC01:39
*** febb has joined #maemo01:40
shaprIs there a tutorial for porting an existing debian package to maemo?01:41
*** koen has quit IRC01:51
*** benzea has quit IRC01:52
*** matt_c has joined #maemo01:56
*** bilboed has joined #maemo02:00
bhimaWow. they're predicting it's going to be cold on Monday.  High of 19, low of 7.02:08
*** matt_c has quit IRC02:19
*** bhima has quit IRC02:34
*** Piega` has quit IRC02:38
sab_probably a dumb question, but is it possible to test new themes in the scratchbox SDK environment?03:05
sab_If I grab a .deb of a theme, should I just be able to do a "fakeroot dpkg -i theme.deb"?03:09
* sab_ tried but is getting errors, so just doing a sanity check to see if it is even possible03:09
*** pvanhoof has quit IRC03:11
*** ajturner has joined #maemo03:14
*** sab_ is now known as sab_afk03:24
*** febb has quit IRC03:30
*** ajturner has quit IRC03:32
*** booiiing has joined #maemo03:39
*** florian has quit IRC03:39
*** spect has quit IRC03:42
*** booiiing has quit IRC04:07
*** booiiing has joined #maemo04:08
*** bilboed has quit IRC04:22
*** Tak- is now known as Tak04:48
*** wasabi_ has quit IRC05:19
*** wasabi_ has joined #maemo05:50
shaprI have scratchbox installed, but I don't remember if it's for 0S2006, is there an easy way to tell?06:01
shaprWhere's the step by step guide to setting up a dev environment?06:09
shapraha -
*** bhima has joined #maemo06:39
*** mlpug- has joined #maemo06:53
*** mlpug- has left #maemo07:03
*** rkaway2 has joined #maemo07:15
*** booiiing has quit IRC07:23
*** booiiing has joined #maemo07:24
*** rkaway3 has quit IRC07:31
*** cworth has joined #maemo08:06
cworthAnyone here that can guide me through rescuing a device?08:06
cworthI've got one device working quite nicely, and I wanted to make another work just like it.08:07
cworthSo I flashed the same root filesystem I had used for the working device, but now this second one isn't completing the boot process.08:07
cworthBy putting each device into rd-mode I can get it to report kernel versions, etc. and those don't match, so I'm guessing that's the problem.08:08
cworthI've found the same root filesystem image on, but I can't find kernel images etc.08:08
cworth(And the annoying click-through download.php script makes it really hard to just browse what's available.)08:08
cworthIs anyone here that might be able to give me some pointers on working through this problem?08:09
*** klausade has quit IRC08:13
*** bhima has quit IRC08:25
*** phil|work is now known as philipl08:48
*** klausade has joined #maemo09:25
* cworth resolves his problem by realizing the .bin files in the download section are in fact the "fiasco" images the flasher talks about09:27
cworthOr, almost done... can't seem to get scratchbox usb transparency working with the kernel from the latest 2006 release, (no nfs modules). Backing up and trying again...09:52
cworth"scratchbox CPU transparency" that is...09:54
*** ssvb has joined #maemo10:04
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo10:15
*** sp3000 has joined #maemo10:16
*** _follower_ has left #maemo10:18
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo10:19
*** dape has joined #maemo10:19
cworthOK, things seem all good now, (though I had to manually "modprobe nfs" on the n770 for some reason). Anyway, I've kept careful notes on this part of the process this time in case they might be useful for someone else later. Good night, all.10:19
*** fab has quit IRC10:19
tigertput them in the wiki when you have time10:27
cworthtigert: Well, there pretty redundant with a lot of what's in the wiki, since I wrote them to be standalone.10:28
*** dralex has joined #maemo10:28
cworthtigert: It's more just a matter of, "Flash SU-18_2006SE_1.2006.26-8_PR_F5_MR0_ARM.bin, then flash Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.1_armel-rootfs.jffs2, and the n770 is one click away from having scratchbox CPU transparency support".10:29
cworthWhat would be better though is to fix things so that that support is available in a couple of clicks from the latest images, (perhaps through an additional package or whatever).10:30
cworthI suppose there's probably a mailing list I should be on to discuss this kind of thing, right? ...10:30
tigertmaemo-developers yeah10:31
* cworth subscribes10:33
tigertalso "sardine" and "herring" are good keywords. those are the unstable devel branches that we want to make more public, s10:35
tigertthis could be moe like an open project with the community10:35
tigertit needs work though, and thus complaining the list with good ideas and insight is good10:36
*** philipl is now known as phil|sleep10:42
*** Guard][an has quit IRC10:44
*** koen has joined #maemo10:44
*** Guardian has joined #maemo10:47
*** sKaBoy has joined #maemo10:50
*** AD-N770 has joined #maemo10:59
AD-N770good morning10:59
JaffaMorning, all11:02
*** fab has joined #maemo11:03
koengood morning all11:08
cworthmorning? Oh my, time for me to go to sleep...11:20
*** florian_kc has joined #maemo11:20
_follower_cworth: a familiar situation :-)11:21
koenisn't #maemo on ugt?11:23
tigertetrunko: ping?11:29
tigertah, probably asleep11:29
inzWhile ugt solves greeting problems, it doesn't solve the problem that some people aren't awake =)11:30
suihkulokkiconfirmed.. zune has a MX31 - 533Mhz arm1111:30
suihkulokkiI guess they are scratching their head how apple can make a mp3 player with a 80(?)Mhz arm7..11:31
florian_kcgood monring11:31
koensuihkulokki: :)11:32
inzsuihkulokki, does it have a 400 MHz 3D accelerator too?11:32
koeninz: if it's the mx31, it has 3d :)11:32
suihkulokkiinz: I don't know about the mhz, but yes11:32
koensuihkulokki: it's mx31, bot mx31l?11:33
inzThey're probably trying to run Vista on it.11:33
tigertI should do a vista theme just for the kicks11:37
tigertor not11:37
inzAlthough, running vista would make them quite expensive though. 10 GB of flash isn't too cheap11:38
Jaffatigert; more decent, professional looking, non-gimmicky themes on the 770 would actualy be good.11:38
inz+ the space for the music files obviously ;)11:38
*** Guardian has quit IRC11:45
*** Guardian has joined #maemo11:45
*** keesj has joined #maemo11:46
shaprtigert: What about a white and blue Nokia theme?11:46
*** Zindar has joined #maemo11:54
inztigert, the icon?11:55
tigertinz: yes12:03
tigertinz: 26x26?12:04
tigertdamn, we need to use standard icon sizes :P12:05
inztigert, yes12:05
tigertmove into that I mean, or add new sizes where needed to the icon size spec12:05
inztigert, can you put it on the wiki?12:05
tigertinz at
inzyou should be able to create attachments... I think =)12:06
*** Guardian has quit IRC12:06
tigertin the editor?12:06
tigertajh yes12:07
koenit even has geoclue support :)12:07
inzkoen, not too much of it yet12:07
tigertM is also for mobile of course12:08
tigertwhich fits nicely there12:08
*** obergix[work] has joined #maemo12:15
tigerthmm. food time12:25
*** mallum has joined #maemo12:37
*** spaetz has joined #maemo12:44
obergix[work]anybody knows an availability date of the navigation kit from nokia for 77012:55
VeggenI registered for more info when available, and haven't heard a thing.12:56
obergix[work]called the belgian nokia online shop, and they said next week...12:56
florian_kchi mallum13:36
mallumhey florian_kc13:37
inztigert, I'm moving the icon to the MaemoBlog page13:39
*** Eloi has joined #maemo13:47
*** Piega` has joined #maemo13:50
inztigert, actually, I should move it to the svn...13:51
inztigert, afaik trac can use it from there too...13:52
inzErm, actually I won't, the svn gets "stuck" every so often13:53
inzSo it's more available as an attachment13:53
inz(obviously I will put it in the svn too)13:53
*** Guardian has joined #maemo13:57
tigert ok. just put it in the package :)14:04
tigerti want it in my menus ;)14:04
*** lardman has joined #maemo14:13
lardmanIs there a list of bootreasons anywhere?14:14
*** luck has joined #maemo14:14
lardmanMy 770 has started random reboots and cat /proc/bootreason gives me 32wd_to14:15
*** klausade has quit IRC14:18
*** obergix[work] has quit IRC14:20
inztigert, 0.1.6 in repos14:22
inztigert, no package icon yet though14:22
_follower_lardman: i believe that's a "watchdog timer" of some sort...14:23
_follower_i seem to recall there's something in the wiki about it.14:23
lardman_follower_: Yep just found the page in the wiki14:24
lardman_follower_: Thanks14:24
lardmanRight, I've looked at that, and corrected a typo in the file one's supposed to 'cat'14:30
inztigert, the 0.1.6 uses libsoup for metaweblog, if you're bored, pls test it =)14:31
lardmanCan anyone interpret the output of /var/lib/dsme/stats/lifeguard_restarts ?14:31
*** ferenc has joined #maemo14:31
ferencwe are having a maemo steering group meeting right now14:32
ferenci try to communicate some of the topics14:32
inzlardman, <command responsible for the restart trigger> : <count of restarts caused by it>14:33
partis part of it going to be held outside in the public?14:33
keesjis there a debian changelog editor?14:33
inzkeesj, dch14:33
partkeesj: dpkg-dev-el14:33
ferencpart: don't have the infra to have it public , but i am gonna tell the topic right now right here and we gonna publish some minutes14:33
lardmaninz: And the * is the one which caused the last reset?14:34
ferencCarlos will shortly give us an update on Herring14:34
inzlardman, that I don't know14:34
inzlardman, erm, actually, it is how many times the program in question has been restarted14:34
inzlardman, sorry14:34
inzlardman, and yes, * marks the last restarted14:35
ferencTigert and myself will demo (this is not any official demo, just showing the first results)14:35
lardmaninz: Oh right, can the programs be restarted without a reboot, or have all the ones in there caused a reboot at some point?14:35
*** matt_c has joined #maemo14:35
tigertinz, maemo-blog gently crashes if your password is wrong ;)14:36
*** Ryback_ has joined #maemo14:36
inzlardman, afaik it depends on the program if it causes a reboot or not14:36
lardmaninz: Also, (when) is the file purged?14:36
ferencLuc and tko will talk about Desktop/HAF API cleanup - targets and objectives (wiki pages already available:
inzlardman, dunno about purging14:36
koenferenc: a 'backports' or 'security updates' for IT2006.1 would be nice14:36
lardmaninz: Ah, ok. I note the filename has changed from lifeguard_resets to lifeguard_restarts and changed that in the wiki14:36
ferenckoen: OK, will raise it towards the end of the meeting!14:36
inztigert, it doesn't crash, it dies to an abort() ;)14:36
ferencAfter Luc and Tommi we have a session for open items14:37
inzlardman, just tried, if you kill some service over and over again (so that dsme thinks it keeps crashing) the device will restart14:38
ferencRight now I have notied koen's question about security updates to IT OS 2006 1st edition14:38
lardmaninz: Interesting, mine shows oss_alarm : 505 *, despite my not having set any alarms14:38
ferencCarlos also wants to talk about mono (Miguel has the port done to 770)..14:38
inzlardman, maybe it depends on service14:38
lardmaninz: osso_hss : 64 and ias : 9 make up the rest14:38
ferencThat's all right now. Please keep me posted with questions and I will raise them.14:38
lardmaninz: okay14:39
keesjinz, thanks14:39
inzlardman, I tried with mce, which should be quite crucial to system14:39
partkoen: 2006.2 is compatible with .1, why should there be updates for .1 specifically?14:39
koenpart: backup sucks, and I refuse to reflash for ~4 userspace improvements14:39
lardmaninz: What's mce? Does the contents of the 32wd_to and sw_rst files mean anything. They are 5 and 1 respectively.14:40
koenI know it2006.2 also had an improved kernel14:40
inzlardman, after I got dsme to reboot the device, I got a "lifeguard_resets" file, which now says "/sbin/mce : 1 *"14:40
partkoen: so what you really want is a package upgrade to .2?14:40
inzlardman, so lifeguard_resets follows the same syntax14:40
koenpart: that's the end goal, but a security update for the A-M would be the start14:40
lardmaninz: Ah, I see14:40
partkoen: there weren't any security updates for the 2005 release, do you think there would be any for 2006.x?14:41
koenpart: that's a bullshit question14:42
koenwith that kind of questions security updates wouldn't exist14:42
koen"I didn't need an antivirus in 1992, why do I need one now?"14:42
*** bilboed has joined #maemo14:43
partkoen: I'm just saying that there haven't been any security updates, I'm not saying that it's an optimal situation14:43
koenit2005 also didn't have a sane apt, so you couldn't do security updates14:44
inzlardman, sw_rst seems to be how many times dsme has restarted the device, maybe 32wd_to is some hardware watchdog (I don't have such)14:44
lardmaninz: Thanks, I'll have to search the ml and see whether I can glean any info about the alarm restarting things14:46
spaetzkoen: I'm waiting for the day where I simply can apt-get dis-upgrade :-)14:46
* spaetz dreams14:46
inzlardman, I killed dsme and got 32wd_to, so indeed it seems to be some hw watchdog14:46
inzlardman, probably dsme keeps pinging the watchdog to keep the device alive14:46
suihkulokkithat would need competent packagers, who would actually manage to make upgradable packages14:47
* suihkulokki ducks14:47
koenspaetz: the fact that the kernel is in a seperate partition makes that a bit hard14:47
koensuihkulokki: or fix packages in repos without taking 3 months14:47
tigertherring stuff now14:47
*** dwd has quit IRC14:47
ferenci386 packages is available since last week14:48
suihkulokkikoen: wrong complaint address.14:48
koensuihkulokki: I wasn't complaining at you, but with you14:48
inztigert, btw, noticed that midgard doesn't handle wrong password too well either14:48
tigertif you have comments herr/sardine, speak out14:48
koenferenc: less crap about gpl releases would be nice as well14:48
inztigert, it reports an error about xmlrpc-server getting invalid data14:49
ferencCarlos is using Scratchbox Apophis for building the armel packages.14:49
koenferenc: don't publish a new image before legal clears the sources14:49
inztigert, whereas wordpress gives <faultCode>403</faultCode>14:49
ferenckoen: yes, we got that already ;)14:49
tigertinz, ok14:49
ferenckoen: it was not depending on legal, but rather some laziness somewhere else ;)14:49
inztigert, but I hope today and tomorrow will make maemo-blog do some sane error checking. =)14:50
ferencCarlos will announce Herring if the armel rebuild goes fine.14:50
ferenccurrently it is in progress. more and more packages are falling to the herring repo14:50
lardmaninz: 32wd_to is supposed to kill things (or reboot the machine, not sure which) if they use too much cpu:
_follower_lardman: could you perhaps go back to that wiki page you edited and add that both filenames may exist?14:52
ferencHerring and the current scirocco repo will be different. Carlos got an action point to sort out the diffs as soon as Herring is available and usable.14:52
*** dwd has joined #maemo14:52
lardman_follower_: i have done so14:52
inzlardman, I believe that 32wd_to kills the device, if someone does not ping it frequently enough. And if someone is hogging up all the cpu, that something (dsme?) won't be able to do the pinging14:53
*** etrunko_lap has joined #maemo14:53
_follower_lardman: good idea. :-) cheers.14:53
lardman_follower_: Do you have the _resets file instead?14:53
_follower_i have both14:53
lardmaninz: Sounds reasonable14:53
lardman_follower_: Ah, cool, we learn a little more14:53
inzlardman, that would explain why killing dsme causes the 32wd_to reboot14:53
_follower_lardman: and individual files for '32wd_to' and 'sw_rst'14:54
ferencany questions from Herring?14:54
lardman_follower_: I've changed it back to the original, and added a note at the end that I have a different file and that both can exist14:56
inzDid you explain the differnece between the files?14:58
_follower_lardman: cool.14:58
lardmaninz: I only have the latter14:58
_follower_the format appears to be the same.14:59
inzlardman, try "while true; do killall mce; sleep 1; done" and you will get both14:59
lardman_follower_: What's in your 32wd_to and sw_rst files?14:59
_follower_but for me the executables listed in the two differ.15:00
lardmanI wonder what the difference between a restart and a reset is - I ask because my 770 has been making the nokia music which I thought indicated a reboot?15:00
_follower_lardman: appears to be just single numbers (for me: '13' and '4' respectively)15:00
inzlardman, restart in this case is restarting a service, whereas reset is rebooting the whole device15:01
lardmaninz: Ah, okay, so why the music when I only have a restart file?15:01
_follower_lardman: maybe it was so b0rked it couldn't record the error?15:02
inzlardman, if I've got it right, the count of reboots listed in lifeguard_resets should match the number in sw_rst15:02
lardmanNo wonder it's getting killed, my 770 is slow as molasses!15:03
lardmanCan't even get the xterm to the foreground to see what's happening15:03
lardmaninz: I'll check when xterm wakes up15:04
_follower_inz: i get a differnece of 115:05
keesjhmm , do I need to spit i386 builds and armel builds in my repository?
_follower_lardman: i was looking for something i was recalling related to this, and found this page: <>15:05
_follower_see: "Enable R&D mode and set some flags"15:05
_follower_especially "--set-rd-flags=no-lifeguard-reset"15:06
lardman_follower_: yep, I saw that. The problem I've got is that something really is eating my cpu and I can't get any response - the desktop won't even redraw and it took 10s for it to realise the cover was off15:07
_follower_lardman: :-(15:07
lardmanpulled the battery15:08
_follower_there was also something i remember reading somewhere (mailing list or irc?) about the names for the two watchdogs. something like "remu" and something? (related to fred and barney?)15:08
_follower_but i can never find the reference15:08
_follower_ah, hang oin...15:08
_follower_it's *retu* and omap(?)15:09
koenand tavoo (iirc)15:09
lardmansounds right15:09
*** ab has joined #maemo15:09
_follower_koen: thanks. :-)15:09
keesj(found the problem )15:10
_follower_heh, it would be handy if i remembered my own edits in the wiki. :-)
_follower_search for "retu"15:11
_follower_koen: so is tavoo the same as omap?15:11
inzkoen, tahvo15:11
koeniirc tahvo is the usb thingy15:11
koenand retu the rtc/watchdog15:12
koenlast time I looked that was some months ago15:12
inzAt least /sys/devices/platform/tahvo-usb exists15:12
_follower_lardman: are you still editing that wiki page?15:13
inzAnd the same for retu-rtc and retu-watchdog15:13
tigertheh, funny names :)15:13
_follower_inz: smart thinking :-)15:13
_follower_tigert: is it because it's something to do with fred and barney in finnish?15:13
tigerti dunno what fred and barney are, but it sounds equivalent ;)15:14
JussiPRetu is Fred and Tahvo is Barney.15:15
_follower_tigert: from the flintstones tv cartoon show15:15
JussiPFrom The Flintstones.15:15
_follower_JussiP: snap. :-)15:15
_follower_hey, i just found this for the first time:
_follower_"   n770 reverse engineering"15:16
tigertoh yes, same names15:16
tigertthe finnish translation of flintsones has at least  Retu15:17
ferencMaemo 2 Midgard info sharing ended now15:18
ferencNow comes Luc and Tommi about HAF API cleanup15:18
tigertlong meeting :)15:20
_follower_so, the link above includes strings references to retu and tahvo15:21
_follower_and includes these strings (all possible reset/restart codes?):15:21
_follower_0x000133f0 unknown15:21
_follower_0x000133f8 swdg_to15:21
_follower_0x00013400 sec_vio15:21
_follower_0x00013408 32wd_to15:21
_follower_0x00013414 pwr_key15:21
_follower_0x00013424 charger15:21
inzNow someone has to find Vilma and Betty, otherwise Retu and Tahvo will be elonely15:21
_follower_0x0001342c sw_rst15:21
_follower_0x00013434 rtc_alarm15:21
tigertinz ;)15:21
_follower_hmmm, my 770 just spontaneoulsy did something.15:21
tigertfollower, you chanted the codes!15:22
inz_follower_, charger and rtc_alarm make them sound more like bootreason15:22
_follower_it "beeped" and i looked over and saw the nokia word and then turned itself off...15:22
tigertit's awakened!15:22
_follower_inz: ah, true...15:22
Guardian"maemo-defender: died my parent is not who he claims to be" while trying to use 2.1 with apophis R4. any idea please ?15:22
_follower_inz: i'm getting mixed up... :-)15:22
_follower_luke, i am your father?15:22
partGuardian: that's from maemo-launcher15:22
Guardianho yeah15:23
Guardianmaemo-defender says "died my parent is not who he claims to be"15:23
_follower_tigert: actually i think it was as mundane as running out of charge, but without any warning...15:23
partGuardian: which qemu version are you using?15:23
tigertsounds like adopted kid identity chrisis? ;)15:24
Guardianin fact i followed the same instructions as for mistral:
_follower_other interesting snippets: "Non-buggy Moscow detected", "Older buggy Moscow detected", "And by buggy I mean _really_ buggy", heh.15:26
Guardiani could have asked nchip but afir he changed nick and i don't know the new ione :)15:27
tigertsomeone with channel logs could check? ;)15:28
ferencany questions about the API clenup project?15:29
Guardiantigert :)15:29
inzGuardiam, suihkulokki i.e. showerseagull15:29
inz13:27 oOo nchip is now known as suihkulokki15:30
Guardianok thx, well i won't private him it's enough highlighting right now :D15:30
tigertit could also mean jet-powered seagull :)15:31
_follower_ferenc: api cleanup qstns: none from me. (and i did actually read the page in qstn. :-) )15:33
lardman_follower_: Sorry, I was called away. No I'm not editing it15:33
ferenc_follower_: OK.15:33
_follower_lardman: cool, i'll cut and pastse some of this stuff.15:33
ferencLuc and Tommi said the the API changes mean some minor implications for most of the apps.15:34
ferencThey will have a code camp internally and change a few apps to test the "procedure", kind of.15:35
_follower_ferenc: although page "HildonFileSystemModel" is referenced but does not exist.15:35
ferencI will ask Luc15:35
partGuardian: does 'sb-conf ls -t|grep arm-' say that you are using the latest version available?15:35
Guardianpart: i typed the command and it lists all the qemu-arm versions available15:37
Guardian0.7.0-sb2, 0.8.0-m2, 0.8.0-sb2, 0.8.1-sb215:37
partGuardian: use 0.8.1-sb215:38
ferenc_follower_: the HildonFileSystemModel is not a wiki page15:39
ferencit will not be. wiki just thinks it is a wiki15:39
_follower_ah, i see. is it a GTK TreeView model?15:39
_follower_ferenc: or do i just know enough to be dangerous :-)15:40
ferenc_follower_: i dont know if you  know enough ;)15:41
ferenci am trying to catch Luc now15:41
tigertit sounds its an accidental wikiword15:41
Guardianpart: now it starts but clicking any menu makes it crash: matchbox-wm: X error warning (0xa0002a): BadWindow (opcode: 12)15:41
_follower_tigert: although accidentals are often a good indicator of a needed page too. :-)15:43
ferencCarlos talks about mono now :)15:43
ferencabout mono:
ferencCarlos is wondering who will package mono for maemo?15:45
ferencAny help here?15:45
ferencI think the package could then be uploaded to the extras repo15:46
koen"a good time to use the new dependency tracking system"15:47
koenyou can really spot the rpm users on the web15:47
*** ajturner has joined #maemo15:47
koen"Dependency tracking? What's that?"15:48
jaithi, does anyone know if the sapwood engine cruft in gtkrc is documented somewhere?15:48
partGuardian: try setting _SBOX_USER_USER env. variable to your username15:49
Guardianjust crashes when i click a menu in xephyr15:51
Guardian(i mean xephyr window)15:51
tigertjait, it should be quite compatible with the pixbuf engine15:52
tigertyou have a specific question now?15:52
partGuardian: just a sec, I'll reinstall 2.1 and give it a try15:52
tigertin mind i mean15:52
*** waite has joined #maemo15:53
jaittigert: no, i'd just like to know what the different functions and other keywords do15:53
*** univac has quit IRC15:53
tigerti can ask tommi after this meeting. but most of it is the same as in pixbuf/pixmap engine15:54
_follower_excuse my ignorance, but does anyone recognise this language: "Per fi ja he acabat de soldar l'upi i lo més gracios es que funciona"15:55
jaitok, and is the pixbuf/pixmap engine documented somewhere?15:55
_follower_and/or whether the author ("pancake") of ever hangs out here?15:55
Eloi_follower_: sometimes... but not usually15:58
Eloi_follower_: By the way, I recognise the language... is my language :) Catalan15:59
_follower_Eloi: cool, thanks. i was interested to see the investigations.15:59
_follower_Eloi: well, yes, that would probably make it easier to recognise, thanks. :-D15:59
_follower_Eloi: do you know of any online Catalan to English transator tools?15:59
EloiJust ask me if you need something translated to english ;)15:59
EloiI never need an online translator for these languages, so... i don't know but I doubt it.16:00
*** booiiing has quit IRC16:00
Eloibut there are catalan->spanish translators, and spanish->english translators. You could try a "chain" translating :)16:01
_follower_Eloi: lol. yeah, because that *always* works well. :-)16:01
_follower_thanks for the suggestion, i won't ask you to translate pancake's rather long blog entry, but will try some googling. thanks.16:02
*** booiiing has joined #maemo16:02
EloiWell, this entry in particular is also in english (in other blogs)16:02
_follower_oh? where abouts?16:03
Eloigoogle for "usb power injector 770".16:03
Eloithe only part of the post that I've never read in english in another please is the last one, where he talks about how he analised the boot process of 77016:04
Elois/please/place/ :)16:04
_follower_is that everything from the "Canvis al software" heading down?16:05
Eloino, it's from "Reveng dels bootloaders" to the end of page16:05
waiteAny ide how much current the 770 Needs to get the chip up from the injector? Is it a full 500 mA a 5V or is it much less just to wake the chip?16:06
Eloi"Canvis al software" explains how do you enable USB host mode. But I think this information is a bit outdated, I don't know if it's still valid for IT200616:06
waiteinternettablettalk has a good set of posts on how to do it at runtime16:07
_follower_Eloi: ah, i see. so do you actually know pancake or just happen to speak the same language?16:07
waiteA note of interest is that some power saving features are disabled in Host mode so your battery life will diminish16:07
Eloi_follower_: well, actually I know him, but I've never meet him. We have some friends in common :) (I've him added to my Jabber contacts).16:08
_follower_waite: thanks. :)16:09
*** saerdnaer has joined #maemo16:09
waite:)  Just stating the obvious.16:10
_follower_Eloi: well, next time you jabber with him, you can mention i found his reverse engineering interesting. :-)16:10
Eloi_follower_: hehe... ok16:11
Eloiby the way, anyone knows if nokia have some kind of strange signalling between the charger and the 770?16:11
VeggenEloy: don't think that16:12
EloiI tried to adapt a psp external battery that I had lying on my table to work for 770, but I had a very strange message: After plugin it in, the 770 says "don't charging"16:12
ferencsuprise! Luc has shown us a draft of the Hildon web page :)16:12
ferencwe have been waiting that for a long. now we have to figure out where to publish that page.16:13
EloiIt's very strange... Usually when its charging it shows "charging", and when it's not charging it shows nothing... the "not charging" message is a bit suspicious.16:13
VeggenEloy: could be that it detects strange voltage, or something.16:13
*** klausade has joined #maemo16:13
Eloi(and I mesured with a multimeter the charger and the external battery outputs, and they are very very similar...)16:14
Veggenbut I can't see where they'd put the connectors for that signalling.16:14
Eloiperhaps the battery is unable to provide enough current.. that's the only reason that I could think about. But it's very strange.16:14
_follower_Eloi: wow, check this out: a catalan to english translation service that actually works when set to the "technical" setting. it's not a perfect translation but pretty damm good considering it's automatic.16:15
Eloi_follower_: mmm... this goes directly to bookmarks :)16:15
_follower_e.g. "First we have to extract the parts from the image:" from "Primer hem de extreure les parts de la imatge:"16:15
_follower_ooh, let me guess "desensamblarem" means disassemble? :-)16:16
saerdnaerabout which post are you talking?16:17
_follower_now i can begin my work of translating "Short Circuit" the movie into Catalan: "No desensamblarem, Stephanie!" :-)16:18
_follower_but then again, "since the IDA costs an egg and half" wtf??16:19
ferenc _follower_: HildonFileSystemModel is a typo on the wiki page. It should be simple: hildon file system model :)16:19
Guardianpart: ok thx for trying with 2.116:19
_follower_ferenc: aha, a bug after all. :-)16:19
EloiIt's and idiom.16:19
ferencwe have concluded the steering group meeting. i will bug Devesh to send out a short summary :)16:19
_follower_ferenc: thanks for the messages to the channel.16:20
Eloi"Costar un ou i mig" -> "Cost and egg and a half" -> Cost a lot16:20
_follower_ferenc: good for community involvement and all that. :-)16:20
EloiCost a lot (very expensive, or a lot of effort)16:20
_follower_Eloi: ah, sort of like "costs an arm and a leg"?16:20
Eloi_follower_: exactly. that's the equivalent idiom.16:20
_follower_i have some bad news...16:21
_follower_my translation of short circuit will cost, in both effort and money,  and egg and a half...16:21
EloiWell, in fact this online translator is quite good.16:22
ferenckoen: i am afraid there will be no security updates or backports to earlier IT OS releases16:22
_follower_Eloi: i was certainly impressed.16:23
EloiIt will work far better if pancake write more formally (uses a lot of slang, and almost never puts accents - à, è, é, ...- in any word).16:23
ferenctoday there was nobody who coudl answer this question, but i forwarded your question to some people.16:23
*** lardman is now known as lardman|gone16:23
ferenci will keep you posted if I get a reply16:23
_follower_well, we probably can't blame pancake, it is a blog after all. :-)16:23
_follower_Eloi: turns out you can pass GET parameters so you could set up a shortcut:
_follower_(apologies to every1 for the crappy URL :-) )16:25
*** ssvb has quit IRC16:25
Eloi_follower_: I had already set up a kde shortcut for this website :)16:26
_follower_Eloi: quick off the mark, aren't you... :-)16:27
Eloi"ca2en:" to translate from english to catalan, "en2ca:" viceversa.16:27
*** lardman|gone has quit IRC16:28
Eloi_follower_: I've pancake on jabber now. Do you want to ask him something?16:37
ferenchave a good weekend everyone16:38
_follower_ferenc: bye16:38
*** ferenc has quit IRC16:38
_follower_Eloi: no, you can just say i enjoyed finding and reading his reverse engineering notes. :-)16:38
EloiOk ;)16:38
Eloi_follower_: Pancake thanks you all :)16:42
_follower_Eloi: i'm pretty sure there's only one of me. :-D16:44
keesjwhy is The Katix-EFIS ( Electronic Flight Information System )  top download on maemo?16:49
Guardianpart: any progress so far ?16:49
partGuardian: I can make it crash reliably :)16:50
Guardianwhen clicking ?16:50
partGuardian: yep16:50
Guardiansame here16:51
Guardianwhat's the difference in the qemu naming: the "-sb2" and "-m2" parts at the end16:51
*** benzea has joined #maemo16:52
*** _follower_ is now known as _follower_afk16:52
*** X-Fade has quit IRC16:52
*** pancake has joined #maemo16:52
Eloiei :)16:53
partGuardian: don't know, sorry16:54
pancakere Eloi ;)16:54
spaetzkeesj: Because so many hobby pilots use the 770? :-P just kidding16:55
Eloise you later...16:55
Eloi s/se/see16:55
keesjit's a babe magnet?16:56
||cwthe 770 makes a decent ebook reader16:57
Eloi||cw: asking or saying? :)16:57
EloiI agree then. I'm just finishing my 8th book read with the 770. ^_ ^16:58
spaetzthe screen is nice, yeah16:58
||cwok where does Katix-EFIS get its data?17:00
*** Eloi has left #maemo17:04
keesjI think there was a bug
tigertcw, i think kate has some custom usb hardware to go in pair with it :)17:05
keesjI hope so.17:06
tigerti talked with her about it once, it was some external controller board17:07
*** X-Fade has joined #maemo17:07
tigertask her, the specs should be open17:07
keesjbtw . I started porting xmoto to the 77017:10
keesjit is really an very  adictive game
keesjthis was the first run ,, there is quite some work left :)17:11
*** bhima has joined #maemo17:12
tigertxmoto rules17:12
keesjI am still not used to the keys on the n770 perhaps there also must be stylus control17:14
tigertone coud do a usb gyro box controller :)17:17
*** saerdnaer2 has joined #maemo17:18
inzWhat, OSS version of across / elastomania17:18
*** dape has quit IRC17:20
*** saerdnaer has quit IRC17:20
inzfeh, xmoto is only in edgy repos, and installing it from there would require downloading ~90 M of updates...17:21
keesjyes , an elastomania clone , but very good:) , and with online highscores and daily a few new levels17:21
keesjthe "original" xmoto uses opengl ,I am converting it to SDL_gfx17:22
keesjinz, edgy == debian unstable?17:23
inzkeesj, nope, debian unstable is always sid, edgy is ubuntu 6.1017:25
*** matt_c has quit IRC17:26
inzkeesj, if you were thinking debian testing, that is etch; close but not quite =)17:26
bhimaIt looks like my second RS-MMC card has died.17:27
* inz suggests one minute of silence in memory of bhima's second RS-MMC.17:27
keesjdoes mmc have the same problems as flash memory. The problem being that you can not write endlessly to the device?17:28
* bhima duct tapes keesj's mouth shut.17:28
inzhe ruineds it! (stupid hobbit ;)17:29
bhima(inz/#maemo) he ruineds it! (stupid hobbit ;)17:29
bhima<keesj> oops17:29
bhimainz: what are you doing differently from keesj?17:30
inzbhima, i'm just cooler than he is17:30
inz(in other words, I've no idea)17:30
bhimakeesj: MMC is an interface standard; flash is a type of memory storage technology.17:31
bhimaThe card in question is a 512MB flash RS-MMC card.17:31
*** dralex has quit IRC17:32
keesjI just wondered why it was possible to use swap on the MMC , bug I guess that while it's possible it's still not recomnmended?17:32
*** saerdnaer2 is now known as saerdnaer17:33
bhimaDefine "recommended"?17:33
inzMMC should do some wear leveling, and the amount of rewrites isn't that small after all17:33
bhimaBy the time it fails, will the card you killed be worth so little that you truly don't care?17:33
inzAnd it's better to do swapping on MMC than on internal flash17:33
partif you want to run any really memory hungry applications, then you really should use swap17:33
inzReplacing a MMC is easier (and cheaper)17:34
tigertcoolyou really want to swap to mmc. its a lot betters17:34
keesjoke , so it's a non issue17:35
inzkeesj, the card _will_ die eventually, but it's still worth it =)17:35
*** saerdnaer is now known as saerdnaer217:36
keesjWe all will die , lets hope it was all worth it17:36
keesjapart from a few lame bots17:37
*** ab has quit IRC17:37
*** saerdnaer2 is now known as saerdnaer17:38
*** saerdnaer has quit IRC17:39
*** saerdnaer has joined #maemo17:41
bhimaI would not suggest running swap if you'd cry if the card died. OTOH, warranty.17:41
bhimaI've nver seen a "no swap" condition on warranties.17:41
bhimaI'd still like to find a description of the algorithms used for wear levelling.17:42
bhimaWIth 'perfect' wear levelling, a small swapfile on a large flash card would be much better.17:42
bhimaBut, writing to the same file over and over seems like a very degenerate case.17:43
bhimaSo it's also plausible that the wear levelling algorithms do poorly with swap.17:44
bhimaI have no RS-MMC and I want to do a backup of my device before I reflash it with the newest release. What's the easiest way to do that now?17:46
*** phil|sleep is now known as philipl17:49
bhimamourning. For my card.17:49
*** matt_c has joined #maemo17:53
*** pancake has quit IRC17:58
*** fab has quit IRC18:01
*** _follower_afk is now known as _follower_18:13
_follower_well, night alll....18:14
bhimaGuten abent.18:14
*** _follower_ has quit IRC18:14
*** Zindar has quit IRC18:14
*** X-Fade has quit IRC18:17
*** keesj has quit IRC18:18
*** sab_afk is now known as sab_18:24
*** snorkelyd has joined #maemo18:39
AD-N770do you know which profiler tool can be used in Maemo ?18:42
*** fab has joined #maemo18:42
*** alexander has quit IRC18:56
*** alexander has joined #maemo18:57
*** philipl is now known as phil|work19:00
*** sKaBoy has quit IRC19:04
*** bedboi has joined #maemo19:09
bedboihi tehre19:09
*** bergie has joined #maemo19:11
*** Piega` has quit IRC19:17
dwdAD-N770: I use the wall-mounted analogue hardware profiling support device, personally.19:27
inzbergie, how's brazil?19:28
*** marvin770 has joined #maemo19:29
*** bergie_ has joined #maemo19:30
*** booiiing has quit IRC19:31
*** booiiing has joined #maemo19:31
bedboianyone is from Helsinki?19:33
partsomeone is from Helsinki19:35
Juhazabout half a million people are from Helsinki19:36
bhimaI'm fairly certain that there are many people from Helsinki.19:36
bhimaOnly a very, very small percentage of them are on #maemo, though.19:36
bedboianyone here?19:36
bedboimy advisor has to come there and would like to know what's the best between two hotels :)19:37
bhimaNope, nobody here.19:37
*** Guardian has quit IRC19:37
*** florian_kc has quit IRC19:37
bhimaOh, anybody who is from Helsinki, and is awake, and is on this channel? :)19:37
Juhazwhy would the locals know about hotels? they don't need to live in them19:37
bhimaI'm sorry. I shouldn't make fun of non-native english speakers. You guys are better than a fair number of natives. :)19:38
glassnaming the hotels would be good for fishing opinions about them19:38
partbhima: shoot, we might know about the hotels19:38
partglass: speculating about the issue is more fun than actually dealing with it19:39
partoff to see a movie, can't answer to any questions about hotels19:43
*** bergie has quit IRC19:46
*** cworth has quit IRC19:53
*** mgedmin has joined #maemo19:56
bergie_bhima: what kind of accommodation are you looking for in Helsinki?20:03
bergie_I'm not there at the moment but might know some options :-)20:03
*** sxpert_ has joined #maemo20:04
bhimaI wasn't looking. I was offering useless suggestions.20:05
bedboibergie_: do you know "Scandic Continental" and "Sokos Hotel " ?20:06
*** rev has joined #maemo20:06
bergie_bedboi: Yeah... Continental is short tram trip from center, and Sokos Hotel is right in the center20:07
bergie_both are on the slightly expensive side, I believe20:07
bedboiyep, i know, but it's form my advisor, i think the university will pay :)20:07
bergie_what are you going to do in Helsinki? That could affect the hotel recommendation20:07
bergie_aha, then they're ok :-)20:08
bedboiehehe, what would you suggest?20:08
bedboimaybe the one in the center is better20:08
bedboibencer: what's abs(temperature) there?20:08
bedboitoday it is +20 here :)20:09
bhimaabs? Is that actually what you want?20:09
bedboithe temperature :)20:10
bedboinot that bad.20:11
Juhazit's pretty warm right now, but could easily drop by ten or more degrees within a week20:11
bedboihelsinki has a bad reputation about that.20:11
bedboiah, that's cool20:11
*** X-Fade has joined #maemo20:13
bedboiJuhaz: i won't call +5 "warm" :)20:13
bedboiin my scale i would call it "freezing-ass-temperature"20:13
Takdid somebody already ask here about the gtk spinbuttons?20:14
Tak5C isn't too bad20:14
bedboiTak: this morning i was with t-shirt20:14
bedboi(+20 C)20:14
Juhazwell, so would I, but everything's relative, it's warm for Finnish winter weather20:14
bedboiyep, i can agree20:15
Takgtk spinbuttons? ugly? anyone?20:17
inzbergie, de.linkm.newsticker's reply to invalid password is not too good20:24
bergie_inz: aha... let me know how to tune it20:24
bhimaIs it like Microsoft Bob, which asked you if your forgot your password?20:24
bergie_not for de.linkm.newsticker, though, as that is a deprecated component20:25
bergie_but for the new implementation20:25
inzbergie, at least my installation gave me a xml-rpc server error20:25
*** pleemans has joined #maemo20:25
inzbergie, whereas it should give a xmlrpc fault response, with code 40320:25
bergie_yep, probably20:26
bergie_the xml-rpc stuff there was quite badly written20:26
bergie_it was initially just a proof-of-concept that then stayed20:26
inzHave not yet implemented error checking, but it'd be easier to say what's wrong, if there's some reasonable reply from the server20:27
inzYeah, I know about those20:27
inzLike's UI =)20:27
bergie_that was in any case why torben deprecated the whole d.l.newsticker component and wrote to replace it20:27
inzbergie, btw,
inzI've ported metaWeblog API to libsoup instead of xmlrpc too.20:29
inzHad to manually insert Expect: 100-continue header to get large images to midgard20:30
inzWith wordpress the uploads worked without it too.20:30
inzNetwork sniffers are friends =)20:30
*** ssvb has joined #maemo20:37
*** bedboi has quit IRC20:38
*** X-Fade has quit IRC20:40
*** AD-N770 has quit IRC20:40
*** X-Fade has joined #maemo20:41
*** mlpug has joined #maemo20:41
*** bergie_ has quit IRC20:44
mgedminregarding rumours about the nokia 770 successor, does anyone know if a miniSD slot accepts RS-MMC cards?20:45
*** bergie has joined #maemo20:45
koenmgedmin: minisd is 1/5th of rs-mmc20:46
mgedminI know that SD readers accept MMC cards, and I know that SD and miniSD only differ in size, but have the same connector; which is the same relationship that MMC and RS-MMC have20:46
mgedminkoen: there's miniSD and microSD20:46
koenstupid SD cards20:46
* koen votes for using CF20:47
mgedmin"Mini SD cards are the same width as standard SD cards but are only half as long. They use the same connector as standard SD cards, but you will need an adapter to use them in devices that take standard SD cards." --
spaetz…we want Suse Linux to have the highest percent share of that, because only a customer who has Suse Linux actually has paid properly for the use of intellectual property from Microsoft…â€20:52
spaetzoops, wrong channel. sorry :-)20:52
mlpugMS is really trying to stop Linux. Full force. I hope its not enough20:53
*** pvanhoof has joined #maemo20:54
spaetzI thought they would be smarter, instead of pulling of the threatening noises themselves20:55
spaetzerr, ignore my bad wording.20:55
*** Guardian has joined #maemo20:56
*** saerdnaer has quit IRC20:57
bergieinz: nice20:58
*** saerdnaer has joined #maemo20:58
bergieinz: You want Midgard to send the header?20:59
tigerthi bergie20:59
tigerthow is the sunny weather? ;)20:59
mgedminspaetz: they tried that with SCO, through an intermediary -- didn't quite work out21:00
bergietigert: I just burnt myself in Paraguay21:02
tigertsounds boring ;)21:05
bergietomorrow we go to see the iguassu falls:
tigertok,phone battery is giving up, later :)21:06
tigertcrappy electricity21:06
*** Piega` has joined #maemo21:07
*** etrunko_lap has quit IRC21:10
||cwsaw a new device on engadget that was a crank powered flashlight with plugs on it for charging various cell phones21:10
||cwsomehting like 30 seconds of cranking gets you 2 minutes talk time21:11
revthat'd be better than my solar charger for my PDAs21:12
||cwand it would work in the dark too :D21:12
revi'd rather crank for 15 minutes to get an hour of use21:13
revi mean21:13
revi'm sure talk time != use of a PDA21:13
||cwdepends on phone21:13
revthe PDA time might take less power, even... as i'm assuming no wifi21:13
revdoing either development or ebook/offline page reading21:13
||cwmost only have 2-3 hours talk time, and most pda's have 2-3 hours run time21:13
*** bilboed has quit IRC21:14
revbut those cell phones have  smaller batteries for that time use, no?21:14
||cwand smaller screens21:14
||cwi see what you mean though, would take more cranking for hte same run time for a pda21:15
revthough, i tend to get a lot more than the 3-4 claimed hours on my nokia 77021:15
glassthose cranked chargers for cellphones have been around for 10 years or so21:15
revbut i mostly am reading ebooks and programming, which is mostly low-cpu21:15
revand i always run at the lowest or second-to-lowest screen brightness21:16
suihkulokkirev: 3-4h is the figure with wifi on21:17
revsuihkulokki: that's what i figured21:17
revsuihkulokki: but still, i've been impressed with my largely non-wifi usage21:17
*** epx has joined #maemo21:17
||cwhm, cna't find it now, not sure what was special about this one21:18
||cwmaybe just that it comes with a handfull of charger plugs, and probably an ipod plug as well21:19
||cwengadget's a sucker for anything ipod21:19
glassall the crank chargers tend to come with a nokia plug and then a bunch of converters to other phones from the nokia plug21:19
glasshandy if you got a non nokia..21:20
glasseasier to find nokia chargers lying around than say siemens...21:21
bergie||cw: have an URL? I saw that gadget in Tbilisi airport a while ago but for some reason didn't buy it and have been regretting that21:21
revglass: my cellphone just has a mini usb plug... who don't other phones just use that?21:21
||cwand in 3 years I've somehow managed to kill 4 motorola chargers21:22
||cwbergie: can't find it21:22
* mgedmin was initially disappointed that you cannot charge the 770 from usb21:22
glassrev: no idea.   except being properiaty for the sake of being properiaty21:22
||cwrev: more and more are, the razr does, and the HTC's21:22
*** marvin770 has quit IRC21:22
rev||cw: yeah, my phone is one of those HTC-based PPC-6700s21:23
bergie||cw: that one I saw wasn't any of these, but:
bergieit was this one:
bergiethough having the screwdrivers there would make it troublesome for air travel these days21:28
bergieat least the last time I tried to fly with tools the security had me throw the tools away21:28
*** Piega` has quit IRC21:30
||cwthis one was white21:30
*** buck68 has joined #maemo21:31
bergie||cw: anyway, this would make 770 even handier travel computer21:31
buck68q: anyone know why the 2.1 developer rootfs appears to be missing from ... appears to be a zero length file...21:32
bergiemy dream travel computer would have some of the GeoClue stuff we're though about like automatically populating Wikipedia pages nearby to Maemo Mapper Points-of-Interest21:32
bergieand bunch of improvements (easy image handling, better formatting, offline support/draft saving) for Maemo Blog21:33
*** mlpug has quit IRC21:51
bergieinz: regarding the maemo blog icon... looks nice, but I'm not so keen on having words in icons21:51
inzbergie, tigert's responsible for the icon21:58
*** spect has joined #maemo21:59
*** epx has quit IRC22:04
*** koen has quit IRC22:05
*** buck68 has left #maemo22:09
*** koen has joined #maemo22:33
*** Guardian has quit IRC22:35
*** mgedmin has quit IRC22:37
*** maddler has joined #maemo22:44
*** maddler has quit IRC22:52
*** Piega` has joined #maemo22:54
Veggenhmm. why does my 770 crash when I update maemo-launcher?22:56
revhmm, good question!22:56
kaatisVeggen, it's a launcher which starts other apps. afaik when it's stopped for upgrade also the apps it started are killed22:59
Veggeni guessed so...but, can I update it? ;)23:00
Veggenhm. Maybe I'll have to ssh in.23:00
inzVeggen, you need to disable lifeguard restarts with flasher to upgrade maemo-launcher23:02
kaatisVeggen, if you already have the latest image you shouldn't need to upgrade maemo-launcher23:06
Veggenwell. I do, but there came a new one in the repository.23:07
kaatisVeggen, the repository version doesn't contain anything except a small patch for scratchbox/qemu23:08
tkohmm, did ferenc (or anyone) announce the meeting we had beforehand? or was the first hint "we're doing this thing right now" ?23:09
koentko: "about to start", or something in that spirit23:09
*** bhima has quit IRC23:10
tkoI'd think it would be better to announce such thing at least a day beforehand, and looking at the backlog, keep the minutes on a different channel23:10
*** buck68 has joined #maemo23:12
*** pleemans has quit IRC23:16
*** ajturner has quit IRC23:18
*** ssvb has quit IRC23:21
*** X-Fade has quit IRC23:21
*** buck68 has left #maemo23:25
*** luck has quit IRC23:33
*** etrunko has quit IRC23:34
*** Guardian has joined #maemo23:34
*** Piega` has quit IRC23:43
*** bergie has quit IRC23:47
*** Piega` has joined #maemo23:54

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!