IRC log of #harmattan for Sunday, 2012-07-08

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DocScrutinizer05tehdely: (DRM requirement of carriers) they can go FOAD, if they have no better ways than DRM to ensure their business model01:16
DocScrutinizer05no ISa PC ever had real DRM, and still Microsoft managed to sell windoze crap to everybody and his dog. And apple with their itunes stuff binned DRM finally, as they found it reduced ther ROI01:18
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DocScrutinizer05the only real reason and ratinale for this particular flavour of DRM (aka aegis) we're talking about here is carriers subsidizing hardware and making money with their customers as hostages01:20
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DocScrutinizer05for *everything* else they want to sell you stuff like aegis for, there are better more lightweight more user friendly solutions01:21
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* rzr invite spanish speakers to translate
rzrlooks it is aegis related01:32
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mato__Hi all. Does anyone know how can I play MPEG files on my Nokia N9?02:34
mato__I found VLC and Mplayer port. Mplayer worked the best but I found it missing some parts of the picture. I was only able to see the top of the picture but not everything.02:36
japhmato__, mash f ?02:36
japhmato__, and if that doesn't cut it, play with the args for -fstype02:36
japhor hell even try -rootwin02:37
mato__What do you mean?02:38
japhmplayer -fs -fstype help02:40
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mato__Lets see if it works. I can't say yet because I can't forward to the point I'd have the show, playing some MythTV recordings. But for now it seems to work great.02:43
mato__Yeah, I think it is good. Thanks.02:43
japhI'm using only mplayer for both video and audio on n900 and n950, and I'm very pleased02:43
mato__Do you have N950?02:43
mato__Cool. I wish I could have got one but I'm fine with N9.02:44
mato__N900 was awesome.02:44
mato__How can I prevent this from locking screen unless I press the button? I don't like to be opening it up again and again while watching a movie.02:45
japhwell that's what I meant with --rootwin02:46
japhI think it should work02:46
mato__How do I use --rootwin? Sorry, I'm quite new with this command-based system even though I've been using Linux a few years.02:47
japhmplayer -rootwin porn.mkv02:48
japh(one dash)02:48
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mato__It's good otherwise but I actually can't get to watch the video.02:50
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mato__It plays, I can hear the sound, but I can only see the command line window.02:50
mato__I suppose I could put it from the settings to prevent it from locking screen.02:53
mato__Except I can't find a setting for it.02:56
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mato__japh you must have been a developer at Nokia, right?02:57
japhI'm not quite sure what you mean 'locks up'02:58
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japh> grep fixed-vo ~/etc/mplayer/config02:58
japhfixed-vo           = 102:58
japhdoes that help?02:58
mato__When the screen goes black and you can see the clock and then you have to double-tap or press the button and slide out the screen with a picture. Is it a wallpaper or something?02:59
mato__How did you get a N950?02:59
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japhoh you mean that. that's not related to mplayer... unless maybe -stop-xscreensaver works03:00
japhelse my guess would be that's because of DPMS03:00
mato__I know it's not related to mplayer.03:00
mato__I just was wondering if there's a setting or something for it.03:00
japhI did this when I had a similar problem :p
japhbut if you look around a bit there's probably a gconf key you can edit03:01
mato__I'm not really sure what should I be looking for.03:08
japhgconftool-2 -R / |grep -Ei display03:09
japh     display_blank_timeout = 303:09
japh     display_dim_timeout = 3003:09
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mato__I found it. But what can I do?03:11
japhset the key to something more appropriate03:13
mato__How can I edit it?03:15
mato__And I'm not sure what does the 3 mean. It's time but I'm not sure how long time.03:18
japhs probably03:19
japhI don't know, the dbus interface is horribly for configuration03:19
japhI'm installing xset now, see if it works to turn off dpms with it and it'd be fine03:20
japhserver does not have extension for dpms option03:22
japh  oh well03:22
mato__Nokia had a great system here which needs some improvements still and it changed to some Windows Phone. What a bad decision.03:23
japhI think xset s off seems to do it03:23
itsnotabigtruckwhat's up03:24
mato__How to get xset?03:24
japhin the repo.......03:24
itsnotabigtruckmato__: well, the argument is that they never had a chance of positioning meego as a serious competitor to the iphone and android03:24
mato__apt-cache search xset gave me nothing.03:25
itsnotabigtruckand since ios isn't for sale, and they didn't want to be another android oem03:25
itsnotabigtruckthe only possibility left was wp03:25
itsnotabigtruckclearly in retrospect that isn't working that well03:25
itsnotabigtruckthe real issue is that they only even started on a world class mobile os years after it was too late03:25
mato__I'd have tried to make MeeGo work. Why wouldn't it have as good chances as anything else.03:26
japhHowever the following packages replace it: x11-xserver-utils03:26
japhE: Package xset has no installation candidate03:26
itsnotabigtruckwell, i'm counting "started" as when they decided to push maemo as phone os and not an "internet tablet" os03:26
itsnotabigtruckand because apps are everything, and even if nokia put its weight behind harmattan there's no way it would have an app situation rivaling even wp703:27
itsnotabigtrucklet alone android03:27
itsnotabigtruckremember that the modern smartphone is, to most people, a delivery vehicle for apps03:27
mato__I'm not sure how do I get xset.03:27
japhI think xset s 9999 9999;xset s noblank; xset s noexpose; xset s off  work03:27
itsnotabigtruckbtw this isn't going to help your mpeg problem, but get inception03:28
mato__I tried apt-get install x11-serever-utils and it told me it's only installable from other sources.03:28
itsnotabigtruckalso, any reason you can't just play your file with video-suite03:30
mato__video-suite, you mean the standard video-player?03:31
mato__To that answer would be because of no support for the format.03:31
itsnotabigtruckwell, one obvious solution is to convert, another is to find a gstreamer plugin03:31
japhnothing works with that piece of shit03:31
itsnotabigtrucknote that video playback without dsp assistance is going to suck03:31
itsnotabigtruckso you're way better off trying to convert to something the dsp likes03:32
itsnotabigtruckthan trying to decode on the cpu with ported software03:32
mato__I tried converting but all the programs I found sucked.03:32
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mato__There could be some programs for Windows sure, but I'm using Ubuntu.03:32
japhffmpeg -i foo.mpg foo.mkv03:33
itsnotabigtruckvideo-suite is definitely picky about video formats but you can convert to an h.264 it can play03:33
japhsuggesting that as a solution? :/ come on03:33
itsnotabigtruckwell, doing some awkward terminal hack to software-decode a video with no gui at all doesn't feel like a solution03:34
japhI wouldn't want to have to convert a video before I can watch it03:35
japhat least for me that takes literally forever03:35
itsnotabigtruckliterally >_>03:36
mato__That's the reason I'd like to watch these videos with a program that supports the format.03:36
itsnotabigtruckno such thing as literally forever :p03:36
itsnotabigtruckbtw which codec are these files?03:37
itsnotabigtruckmaybe you can convert the container format only without transcoding the video03:38
mato__MPEG. I'm not sure what exactly. But I guess I could look it up.03:38
itsnotabigtruckthere's a bunch of different mpegs03:38
mato__I know.03:38
itsnotabigtruckvlc on your pc might be able to tell you03:38
japhor ffprobe --show-streams03:39
mato__It seems like VLC can convert this stuff?03:41
itsnotabigtruckvlc can convert stuff?03:41
itsnotabigtruckanyway, just find out what codec it is03:41
mato__I found Convert/Save on the menu.03:41
itsnotabigtrucki bet it's some kind of mpeg-203:41
rzryes vlc can do everything03:41
mato__I think it might be mpeg-2.03:41
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rzrbtw itsnotabigtruck any comments on today news ?03:42
itsnotabigtruckrzr: which news is that03:42
itsnotabigtruckso and so taking over meego?03:42
rzrthe news !03:42
itsnotabigtruckmeh, not getting my hopes up03:43
itsnotabigtruckbut we'll see if they produce anything cool03:43
rzrlets hope this aventure got support of nokia03:43
rzrlike if nokia cant do a such project w/ a exclusivity contract ...03:43
rzrbut a spinoff can do what cant be done inside03:43
mato__I don't really know what MPEG is it. I don't know how to look it up and my VLC is converting it so I wouldn't like to stop that. But I'm pretty sure it's mpeg-2, it's recorded with MythTV backend and I think that gives mpeg-2.03:45
rzri donno many mpeg2 encoder03:46
rzrmpeg ts ?03:46
rzrmplayer -identify will tell03:46
rzrthere is also mediainfo package03:46
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mato__I found something. FFmpeg MPEG-203:48
mato__Now looking at the clock. Perhaps I should be sleeping, not doing something like this at 4 in the morning can't go so well.03:50
mato__So I'm guessing that there's no help from knowing what MPEG the video is, because I have no idea what that would help. And I'm guessing there's no way to prevent the screen from locking without getting deep into the system.03:54
itsnotabigtruckmato__: mpeg = a standards group that's responsible for a number of video codecs03:57
itsnotabigtruckit looks like there's mpeg 1, mpeg 2, and two different kinds of mpeg 4 (simple profile and h.264)03:57
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mato__It's MPEG 2. That doesn't help, does it?03:58
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itsnotabigtruckmato__: nope :(03:59
itsnotabigtrucklooks like it only supports the two mpeg 4s03:59
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rzrthere are 2 mpeg2 profile a least04:02
rzrts = transport stream04:02
rzrused on digital tv04:02
rzrand the other one04:03
mato__I guess it must be ts then. After all this stuff came from digital TV.04:03
rzrok then you just need to remux it04:03
rzryes :)04:04
mato__Could you explain that to me?04:04
rzris like taking the data out and put it back into an other container04:04
mato__And what do I get from that?04:04
rzru can play a bit with avidemux04:05
rzrbut reencoding to theora .ogv is good for freedom04:05
rzrmato__, are u using linux ?04:05
mato__Well, I can already play it so I'd like to keep it how it already is. I just hate that the phone locks up all the time.04:06
rzrwell try to view it w/ mplayer04:08
rzror vlc04:08
rzrand then port those apps to  phone04:08
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mato__I can view it with Mplayer and VLC and I already have those on my phone. Except that they are not made by me and VLC isn't so great.04:08
mato__But Mplayer is good.04:09
mato__It just locks up my screen all the time.04:09
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cityLightsok, I just noticed Makrygiannis left nokia, and it seems no more meego team there11:30
cityLightsdoes anyone know where he is working now?11:30
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cityLightsits like a dropbox clone - right?12:06
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fralsi dont get why it made so huge news that the people officially left nokia now from the meego team13:42
fralsits been known for ages that it was the last day13:42
Stskeepsfrals, i think the phrasing from people assisted that.. but you know media13:43
Stskeepsi'm surprised there were even people beyond subcontracted maintaining teams left13:44
fralswell, not sure how much general population knows but im quite sure everyone was relieved of their work duties quite a while back13:45
frals<3 finnish legalislation and nokias social policies13:45
Stskeepssive wave soitris managed to create, too13:45
Stskeepsreally shows that people arent satisfied with current offerings13:46
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Aardfrals: what are you doing nowadays?13:48
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fralsAard: n9 maintenance until november13:51
fralsafter that.. who knows13:51
Aardah, yes, you mentioned that13:51
Aardsend us your CV? ;)13:51
fralsmight end up doing that ;)13:52
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Lava_Croftjust wait14:06
Lava_Crofta decade from now, all the nerds will talk about how they all had Maemo devices14:06
Lava_Crofteven tho they never had14:07
Lava_Croftand they will all talk about how good it was to be relatively free from the walled garden14:07
Lava_Crofteven tho they all had iphones14:07
Lava_Croftsame logic applies to movies, computer games, whatever14:07
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ZogG_laptopAard: ping14:20
AardZogG_laptop: yes?14:20
ZogG_laptopAard: i have few questions regarding Jolla nad if you can answer it would be nice14:21
ZogG_laptopAard: are you planing to use QtSDK for apps? or QtSDK fork or something similiuar14:22
AardZogG_laptop: I can try, though I can't answer anything not beeing answered by our press release or twitter statements already14:22
ZogG_laptopAard: and how hard compability of current harmattan and jolla would be? i mean would it be hard to port apps?14:23
AardQt will be supported14:23
ZogG_laptopQt is not QtSDK, i mean QtCreator as IDE for developing apps and maybe Qemu and deploying on phone14:24
Aardthe amount of work for porting will depend on the kind of app you're trying to port. it'll be a lot easier than moving from n900 to n9 ;)14:25
ZogG_laptopAs well as "Qt supported" means it wouldn't be primary framework?14:25
ZogG_laptopAard: easy because of qml? or MTF is preferable?14:26
Aardfollow development of mer and nemo, and you can make guesses ;)14:26
Stskeepsqml preffered14:26
AardMTF is dead, legacy codebase, in maintenance state.14:26
ZogG_laptopAard: though MohammadAG proved that it can work faster =P14:27
DocScrutinizer05and for sure quite a number of widgets are waaaay nicer in MTF14:27
ZogG_laptopAard, Stskeeps but still the question of QtSDK and QtCreator is unclear =\14:27
DocScrutinizer05buzzword date picker, time picker14:27
Aardthat might be in some cases, but the MTF codebase is unmaintainable, imo (that's my position, not jollas)14:27
StskeepsZogG_laptop: people use qtcreator with mer14:28
ZogG_laptopAard: you can always fork and work on it, qml is nice to involve new devs, while mtf i think still is richer than qml =)14:28
AardDocScrutinizer05: the picker widgets are nokia assets which are not opensource.14:28
DocScrutinizer05I know :-S14:28
AardZogG_laptop: I've seen the effort put on MTF in nokia. keeping it working would require quite some manpower. they made lot's of broken design decisions14:29
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: the question of not using, as i think for Qt you can always use it, the question of integration of development, for example i'm as noob try to write simple app with qml and i do test on N9 by simple deploy button in QtCreator14:29
DocScrutinizer05just a sequel of a very popular rant of mine "slotmachine time/datepicker is braindead and evil"14:30
ZogG_laptopDocScrutinizer05: Aard the timepicker and datepicker rewritten and opensource btw by one of my friends =P14:30
AardZogG_laptop: you will be able to do easy development for the device (after all, we don't want to do hard development all the time until we release something ;))14:31
DocScrutinizer05others claimed they get fired when they miss half of a meeting due to concentrating on time/datepicker slotmachine to enter the next meeting date14:31
AardZogG_laptop: oh, I missed that. is it in nemo?14:31
Aardoh, so he did it in qml. cool.14:32
ZogG_laptopAard: and i have request, if porting N9 apps is easy, wouldn't be right to encourage people now to develop for N9? It may take you time to release device so for now you and N9 users can benefit if you encourage companies and people to develop =)14:33
dm8tbrmake them develop for Qt5 on N9 :)14:35
AardZogG_laptop: we need to check advantages/disadvantages of that. people have different opinions of 'easy', so doing something like this can easily have a negative effect when releasing the device14:35
dm8tbrwasn't there a workshop at Akademy?14:35
DocScrutinizer05hi dm8tbr!14:36
dm8tbrhi DocScrutinizer0514:36
ZogG_laptopAard: btw russian people are interested in your company future in Russia (i'm not living there but read forums), so as well this guy and other from  Cordova making their Qt podcasts. I may tell them to contact you or somebody to interview or write record something about Jolla for Russian communities if you want14:37
jabiswell if the device is MeeGo driven - then at least a packaging issue will emerge, as well as other lib dependencies and so on and so on, so I'd wait for a proper device before encouraging people to go crazy with nyners :)14:37
dm8tbrI'm sure Aard's wife could help with that ;)14:38
AardZogG_laptop: oh, that's interesting. can you message me links?14:38
Aarddm8tbr: she chose this weekend to go on a trip, and be unreachable for me. very bad planning on her side :/14:38
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jabiswives - you can't live with them - nor with them - when they have their periods, that is14:39
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DocScrutinizer05Aard: (slotmachine timepicker) in the early days of linux, there was a general notion of "we don't imitate windows to become as good as this crap, we already are better by doing things different than windows and we don't plan to go for inferior". Nowadays I seem to detect the opposite notion regarding both windows-isms in gnome/kde as well as all mobile OS and toolkits try to mimic iPhone, not matter how crappy the apple concept14:44
azeemcue fvwm9514:45
azeemand icewm14:45
DocScrutinizer05well fvwm95 has it in the name already ;-P14:45
DocScrutinizer05I honestly think we should start another emancipation movement, forget about iPhone, except for bad example of how we don't want to end14:47
DocScrutinizer05the general idea of each app has its own "homedir" for storing projects hardcoded, so no way to use directory tree paradigm and to exchange project files between apps is another such deadend idiotic concept invented by either apple or microsoft, which I'd rather like to see on top of "Don't do it like that!" list on the office wall14:49
azeemwhy would you want to exchange project files between apps in general?14:51
DocScrutinizer05in general? because no project is bound to a single tool ever14:51
MohammadAGI just hate qml ZogG_laptop14:52
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05: A sandbox has its advantages and disadvantages14:52
DocScrutinizer05and it's hybris of devels to think their crappy tool is all you'll ever need or could use to mess with their project files14:52
MohammadAGJollamobile seems interesting14:52
MohammadAGWonder if the j is a j or a y14:53
DocScrutinizer05hi MohammadAG14:53
MohammadAGHi DocScrutinizer0514:54
DocScrutinizer05azeem: on a more concrete example - I want to store my email attachment to wherever I want, and often I want to decide if I open them with a pdfreader-A or pdfreader-B or maybe a hexeditor or a viruschecker, or acrobat editor14:55
DocScrutinizer05very obvious example: text editor14:56
azeemthe latter has nothing to do with exposing the file system tree to the user, but with the mime/whatever system IMO14:56
DocScrutinizer05I want to edit arbitrary files with such a text editor, not only my notes I take14:56
azeemDocScrutinizer05: that's fine, I am just not convinced this approach is obviously superior for most users than a document-centric approach14:57
azeemit is very natural to traditional GNU/Linux users, of course14:57
DocScrutinizer05azeem: fs-tree concept got invented for a reason, and it's kinda odd to think you can come up with a better concept now, based on the rationale your users are too stupid to get the catch of fs-tree anyway14:57
azeemin 1970, you either had a text file or a binary14:58
azeemwell, whatevr14:58
DocScrutinizer05even msdos eventually appreciated usefulness of directories. otherwise we'd still store everything in C:14:59
DocScrutinizer05the apps wouldn't care15:00
DocScrutinizer05as they never get lost in a unstructured file heap15:00
DocScrutinizer05it's a mere convenience thing for users15:00
DocScrutinizer05nowadays it's declared evil15:00
DocScrutinizer05which is basically so extremely retro I fail to find the right words for it15:01
jabisMohammadAG: Jolla means a small boat in Finnish :)15:02
rzrbada , mer, jolla15:05
rzrjust titanic is missing15:05
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DocScrutinizer05you want to hide fs-tree "complexity" from your poor brainless users? fine! make your app's filepicker dialog *open* in the app's hardcoded "homedir", with settings defaulting to "view: simplified". Missin accomplished. - - But don't *forbid* users with a bit of brain left over to sellect ".." and "view: detail"15:07
Termanajabis, I'm pretty sure the whole community can fit in that boat... :p15:07
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DocScrutinizer05that's clearly against general rule of maximum freedom for user15:07
jabisTermana: :D15:07
MohammadAGTbh I like that I can delete one directory and be done with all the app's files15:07
jabisrzr, you forgot nemo X)15:08
MohammadAGJabis: ah, I see15:08
SpeedEvil - first hit on flickr15:08
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: so waht?15:08
SpeedEvil(for Jolla)15:08
MohammadAGIn before the from a burning platform onto a boat jokes15:08
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05: That's how iOS's sandbox works :p15:09
MohammadAGSo is there a pr 1.3 for the N950?15:10
TermanaMohammadAG, Jolla is a life boat. There is no room for Elop, he'll have to stay on the burning platform I'm afraid. It's a real shame...15:11
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: so you suggest when you uninstall callendar, it should delete all your appointments (obviously), but as well all your emails with an appointment attached? all your SMs that sent or accepted an appointment? all contacts that have a birthday?15:11
MohammadAGOr do I have to wait for Israeli customs to clear the N9?15:11
TermanaMohammadAG, no PR 1.3 for N950 that I've seen15:11
azeemTermana: I thought the CEO is always evacuated by helicopter15:11
alteregoElop is a fat yank, who looks, and sounds like a retard15:11
alteregoI'm quite suprised he was ever employed by anyone.15:11
Termanaalterego, Elop was born in Canada15:12
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer05: 3rd party calendar yes15:12
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: when you delete nano texteditor, it should delete all the files you ever edited with nano?15:12
MohammadAGNo, that's not an app15:12
MohammadAGBy app I mean app store app15:12
DocScrutinizer05wtf is appstore??15:13
alteregoTermana: damnit, and I like Canada ... :/15:13
MohammadAGNokia store, app store, etc15:13
DocScrutinizer05how is it relevant for this anyway?15:13
MohammadAGA compass app shouldn't read my files15:13
DocScrutinizer05is the concept of a tool determined by the source I got it fromß15:13
alteregoCan you two not talk about anything more interesting?15:13
jabisI wonder will Elop ever get a CEO position after his sound performance with NOK15:14
MohammadAGalterego: There's nothing more interesting :p15:14
MohammadAGjabis: MS15:14
alteregojabis: probably HTC next ;)15:14
jabistho CEO is usually just a puppet for the chairmen, but nonetheless, possibly one of the most diving performance ever15:15
DocScrutinizer05apple cleary noticed the "sandbox concept" (as you call it) been a dead end and rowed back15:15
DocScrutinizer05Nokia thought "we'll show them how to do it right"15:15
jabistrashing a fortune 100 company should be awarded with Darwin - I think15:16
DocScrutinizer05sure, 10 bio flies can't be wrong, eat more err use windows!15:17
TermanaDocScrutinizer, maybe you didn't mean what you just said but I'm not sure Apple has clearly noticed their sandboxing is a dead end. For OS X they are only tightening sandboxing and execution requirements and nothing has changed on iOS15:17
DocScrutinizer05Termana: MohammadAGcalled the dedicated bunker for each app's project files "sandbox"15:18
jabisI wonder what the suicide rate is among the 10000 sacked15:18
jabis(+ subsidized companies now out of business)15:18
DocScrutinizer05jabis: if I want iOS (lookalike) I get me an iPhone - I got a maemo device *because* it's quite different. Nokia - in other occasions - well been aware of this idea when they claimed "needed for differentiation"15:20
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DocScrutinizer05I wonder why in some subjects they didn't see the use of differentiation15:20
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DocScrutinizer05jabis: oops I missed your first post - seems we're talking different topics15:22
TermanaDocScrutinizer, right, because that's what it's called. No matter what you want to call it, I still don't understand why you think Apple has seen it as a dead end and certainly they haven't changed their position.15:23
TermanaUnless you were merely expressing that you believe it's a dead end and not that Apple believes it to be15:23
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DocScrutinizer05Termana: well, that's what friends explained to me about their iPhones. I personally only once ever touched such a brick 'o shite15:24
jabisDoc, no worries :) - got NOK devices for same reasons - tho additional motivator was to support a national brand :)15:25
DocScrutinizer05jabis: I thought you're suggesting me for darvin award ;-D15:25
DocScrutinizer05for my trashing of Apple15:26
jabisnah - you're prolly not the one trashing a multi-billion brand all by yourself15:26
jabisby trashing - I mean really scrapping the company15:27
DocScrutinizer05bashing/trashing, i'm not a native speaker15:27
alteregoMost people that have a technical understanding and interest in platforms think iOS is shit15:27
alteregoUnfortunately, most people aren't :)15:27
DocScrutinizer05alterego: exactly. But then it's not a good rationale to mimic that shit, no?15:28
DocScrutinizer05even poorly mimic it15:28
DocScrutinizer05by only picking the bad parts and implementing them even inferior way than already bad original15:29
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DocScrutinizer05e.g. file explorer of os-x. Yes it hides parts of fs-tree from user, just like maemo5-filepicker does. But then on a mac you can enter /etc/ to the address textbox and still access all you want. Unlike on N90015:31
MohammadAGalterego: IOS without a jailbreak is shit15:32
DocScrutinizer05and with it's shit with jailbreak ;-P15:33
MohammadAGI disagree15:33
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MohammadAGOut of ios and android iOS clearly wins15:33
MohammadAGOut of sl15:33
DocScrutinizer05quite possible15:33
MohammadAGAll the rest, it wins in terms of apps only15:33
DocScrutinizer05after all it's mainly the UI that sucks on apple, not so much the basic OS gear15:34
MohammadAGThe ui isn't that bad15:34
MohammadAGUIKit is a sane toolkit, unlike qml15:34
DocScrutinizer05well, the implementation of the upper layers I mean15:34
DocScrutinizer05not the UX in general15:34
MohammadAGIf iOS didn't have any restrictions, like certain apps could do certain things, it would've been the best os15:35
DocScrutinizer05and I guess we are all aware qml is dalvik-reinvented15:35
MohammadAGI see it that way yeah15:36
MohammadAGI like how on ios you can use two fingers to scroll two panes for example15:36
MohammadAGI haven't seen that on any other ui toolkit15:36
MohammadAGYou can normally scroll one viewport in android15:37
jabiswhat's the use-case for scrolling two panes on a mobile tho?15:43
MohammadAGAndroid runs on tablets, and so does ios :p15:43
jabisridiculous screen resolutions usually destroy the accuracy - even with tablets15:44
MohammadAGAccuracy of what? The panes would ideally be wide enough to be easily scrolled15:44
jabisMohammad, still - what's the use case? :)15:45
jabisaccuracy of touch events15:45
DocScrutinizer05aaaah yes15:45
DocScrutinizer05accuracy of capacitive saussage-touch events15:45
MohammadAGjabis: Well, there are use cases for it, but it shows how mature the ui toolkit is15:46
MohammadAGWhether you love or hate iOS, you can't deny the ui toolkit is mature15:46
jabiswhether or not mature, it's mostly garbage still :)15:47
jabisI dislike developing for iOS eventho I have to (company uses iShit quite widely)15:48
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: (certain apps could [not] do certain things) we already got acme aegis for that ;-P I honestly hope it gets binned in mer/jolla/nemop/whatyacallit15:48
MohammadAGAegis is a nice concept15:49
jabiswe can only hope Jolla wont sink x)15:49
DocScrutinizer05like is nuclear fission15:49
MohammadAGIt's configured badly15:49
MohammadAGAnd implemented in a half botched way15:49
MohammadAGNo really15:49
DocScrutinizer05extremely nice concept15:49
MohammadAGAegis is nice15:49
MohammadAGBut 1) devs should be able to switch it off15:50
MohammadAG2) it should have finer tokens15:50
jabisconcept shmoncept - it's so unfinished it only interferes at it's current maturity15:50
DocScrutinizer05and 3) user possess root cert15:50
MohammadAG3) tokens should be accepted/denied at user discretion, not source15:50
MohammadAGThis app would like to self destruct your phone, allow/deny?15:51
DocScrutinizer05I'm however 100% with jabis here15:51
jabisI disagree with user discretion - the source should be the validator, but user should control the source at his discretion15:51
MohammadAGThen allow me to make a source with my tokens15:52
DocScrutinizer05who's owning the root cert is owning the device. For now Nokia owns the root cert(s)15:52
jabisapps shouldn't be allowed to do harmful things (pun intended), but user should be able to grant the application with harmful things in mind to go about it's business15:53
MohammadAGFor example, in my currnt situation, I can't redistribute led-event-notifier in any repo15:53
DocScrutinizer05in their eternal grace they allow users who paid for the device to run certain apps on it15:53
jabisye - but that's source control - not app control15:53
SpeedEvilI somewhat disagree - an appstore that actually views the tokens, and talks with the author if they are not appropriate is probably sane.15:54
SpeedEvilFor example - if you have a calculator, it never gets internet access, even if the author requested it - unless it says it in big letters why it needs it on the app description.15:54
jabisuser should be able to sign their own sources, but root certs - I don't know...15:54
DocScrutinizer05SpeedEvil: any concept that depends on such a "third party" appstore infra is fubar by design15:55
SpeedEvilWhile the user being able to view tokens is valuable - some third party that can provide a saane set of permissions isn't unreasonable.15:55
SpeedEvilthat can sanity-check those permissions, rather.15:56
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DocScrutinizer05user needs a way to define arbitrary "appstore" URLs/sources as valid and approved ones15:56
SpeedEvilAnd yes - installing only from the appstore is a fail.15:56
MohammadAGSpeedEvil: +115:56
jabissome portions of the device I wouldn't grant full access ever to anyone, even myself15:56
SpeedEvilInitially these are not important cases really.15:57
MohammadAGTbh android does it best15:57
SpeedEvilIt's not going to be a phone to give to your grandparents.15:57
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: I disagree.15:57
DocScrutinizer05the way it's implemented now paegis is just doing one thing: disown user's device15:57
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: there is no vetting of credentials.15:57
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SpeedEvilMohammadAG: determining if the calculator app wanting to access the internet when it does not list any features that might want to do so, and does not say it does in the description is reasonable15:58
SpeedEvilFor example.15:58
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SpeedEvilHmm. I wonder about exposing the credential list, and then letting users flag suspicious credentials. The dev could even explain per credential why it's needed.15:59
DocScrutinizer05that's all based on the idea there's any instance (here: appstore) that knows better than *I* do what's acceptable and what's not, for any arbitrary app. An obvious brainfsck16:00
SpeedEvilIt's not for you.16:00
SpeedEvilAnd I'd support the appstore having a place for unreviewed apps.16:00
jabisthat's yet again via paradigm of app control not source control16:00
jabisif you control the sources - you control the device16:01
DocScrutinizer05please define sources16:01
jabis"appstores" should suggest the credentials16:01
SpeedEviljabis: Assuming you have the time, and understanding to vet the sources.16:01
jabisbut not impose upon users to determine whether it's ok or not16:01
SpeedEvilI would want teh above store to be one - default - option on the phone, witht he ability to add other appstores that may have other policies, including no policy, and the ability to install apps from files or whatever.16:02
jabisif you grant "sources" / "appstores" certain credentials - you'll just get notified if apps use the credentials or not16:02
SpeedEvilThis is less important initially, with skilled users.16:02
DocScrutinizer05SpeedEvil: any infra / toolchain that breaks down whenever Nokia bites the dust is *EVIL*16:02
jabisthat's because you have no source control - but you have limited app control - now that's the base problem16:03
jabisyou CAN'T  control the set of credentials - tho you know OVI has a superset of user/developer cert - it's still limited per se16:04
jabisa sane control mechanism would restrict the source to a user defined subset16:06
jabispossibly multiple tiers of permissions16:07
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jabisthus a calculator app installed from a "malicious" source would never have the possibility to do it's malicious moves eventho installed and accepted by user stupidity16:10
jabisunless you mark the source as accepted16:10
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SpeedEvilThe ability to add other stores, with different root keys, and the ability to install single packages as files means that a default appstore is benign.16:11
SpeedEvilA fixed appstore, even a well intentioned one without that is at best tollerable.16:11
SpeedEvilAs it does indeed risk dying 3 years in.16:12
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jonniwell with inception you can add your own custom root certs, so you can always make a rogue/community place to distribute the apps, if ovi store someday bites the dust.16:58
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jabisbut inception is hack17:01
jabisthe option should have been brought by the distributor :)17:02
jabisand I think inception adds unneccessary permissions to certain apps as well - so it's a security hole, but by design17:02
jonniyep, I'm just saying if distributor goes bankrupts someday, then community can just use some hole to install community rootcert and keep the device app distribution alive.17:04
jabisbut mainstream users don't know how to leverage such an app - if ovi goes down - so will 80% of the users17:05
SpeedEviljonni: Assuming there is a hole.17:06
jonniI dont see ovi going down for atleast for few years, and by then N9 is museum device anyways.17:06
jonniSpeedEvil: there is always a hole.17:06
SpeedEviljonni: Relying on that is questionable.17:07
SpeedEvilAs I've said in the past - the reason there is a hole is typically nobodies cared enough to get someone with a clue to audit the code.17:07
jonnifor harmattan you can rely on that there is always a hole :)17:08
jabisauditing a linux system as a whole is hardly possible x)17:08
jabisconcept is open platform, so one can leverage nearly anything imaginable17:09
SpeedEviljonni: sure17:09
SpeedEviljabis: I mean - auditing the security chain for an aegis-alike.17:09
jabiswell - you do realize that such an immature tool will always provide a way to escape, because if it would not, it would be useless to design a system with :)17:10
pai have a mkv that is h264 708x480, what can i use to play it?17:11
SpeedEviljabis: I mean vendor hostile escapes.17:11
pamplayer cannot play it smoothly17:11
pavideo-suite cannot open it17:11
SpeedEviljabis: In the case of new  open-source phone vendors, it's rather different.17:11
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SpeedEvilIn principle you can transcode.17:11
SpeedEvilI've transcoded stuff on the phone before.17:12
SpeedEvilIt's rather silly.17:12
jonnipa: convert to 856x480 base profile and you might get lucky17:12
paah you think it's not base profile17:12
pamight be17:12
jabisSpeedEvil: well - I hope aegis doesn't get completely scrapped as it could be quite a magnificient tool - it just currently lacks ability to use it wisely17:14
jabisa security framework is something missing from all vendors17:14
padoes anybody have experience with such transcoding? like a one-liner command that does it, leaving audio tracks and all the rest in there17:14
SpeedEvilIt's missing stuff.17:14
jonniaegis failed on the moment someone chose perl as dpkg wrapper, design otherwise was pretty nice.17:14
SpeedEvilLike finer granularities.17:15
SpeedEvilFor example - 'same origin' internet connections.17:15
SpeedEvilRather than general.17:15
SpeedEvil- so that highscores can only go to one site, say, if it wants to do that, rather than having to grant a game general internet permissions.17:15
jabisbut you can't expect magic from shit that's been scrapped, generally x)17:15
paSpeedEvil, i dont think that's a good idea17:16
SpeedEvilpa: Why not?17:16
paone can do tricks anyway17:16
SpeedEvilpa: Sure.17:16
user /quit17:16
jabisthat went like in movies, user17:16
virtualdwhat do you mean with 'same origin'internet connections?17:16
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SpeedEvilvirtuald: Angrybirds would only be able to talk to - nowhere else.17:17
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jabisI think we're back to the original point of source control vs app control17:17
jabis~security by obscurity is the wrong way17:18
infobotjabis: okay17:18
SpeedEvilIt's basically just another permission. And I'm not arguing for security by obscurity. Just that in principle, fine grained control is better than coarse grained.17:18
virtualdSpeedEvil:  how do you know is who you think it should be?17:19
SpeedEvilYou don't.17:19
SpeedEvilBut it's somewhat less of a risk if the site is hardcoded, and the permissions says 'this app can make internet connections to' - rather than a general permission to access the internet.17:20
SpeedEvil(and yes, I know, this raises interesting DNS issues)17:20
jabisa game declaring the need for perms to use for ex. "internet" is by default a fail - source should be given perms for internet::domains::x with domains::x having a cert proving its authority - but that kind of control is restrictive17:21
jabismuch like you declare DNS - if you have a proven auth - you should be able to control any and all traffic17:21
SpeedEvilRestrictive may be appropriate for a platform you want the tech illiterate to be able to use reaasonably safely.17:21
pabut i mean, what is the bottom line? is it "there is the need for a way to prevent malicious apps"?17:22
jabisas well as restricting access to x and y subnets17:22
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SpeedEvilIt's probably not really a benefit at the initial stages, as it doesn't matter so much for educared users.17:22
paor what other purpose does aegis serve?17:22
jabisapp control becomes unnecessary when you introduce source control with user accepted certs/permissions toolkit17:22
SpeedEvilThe only benefit aegis has in principle (in my mind) is the possible secure storage, and credential checking at the stores.17:22
SpeedEvilbut neither is really well implemented17:23
SpeedEviljabis: User accepted permissions work only with an educated, skilled userbase.17:23
jabisaegis owns your device - vs you owning a device that has a complete security framework :)17:23
SpeedEvilSee android - wobbly boobs malware apps.17:23
jabisSpeed, thus you need tiers of permission control - not app control17:24
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SpeedEvilA default secure store - if the user can add other stores, and even choose to install unverified packages doesn't take anything away.17:24
jabisyou could have dozens of "app stores" with finer granularity of what apps can do in which "store" instead of a superset of perms for "store" and all apps can leverage given permissions17:25
SpeedEvilThat seems somewhat messy.17:25
jabisone domain could house easily hundreds of "stores"17:25
jabisthat IS source control17:25
SpeedEvilAnd yes, in principle 2 billion stores do get you 32 different bits of access control, I just question if that's useful. :)17:26
DocScrutinizer05pa: aegis serves only one purpose: to deprive user from control over his own device. For *all* other usecases alleged to aegis there are already better tools and designs17:28
jabisit's by design more useful than controlling 1 app store with a superset of privileges housing billions of apps with the same creds17:28
jabisthus source control is limited to on/off17:28
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SpeedEvilThe design I'd be keen on would be all stores have all priveleges by default, and can choose to allow apps a subset of them.17:29
jabisand off means you're restriced to OVI which is beginning to be "deprecated" for its current purpose17:29
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SpeedEvilAnd anyone can make a store by simply generating a key, and publicising it.17:30
SpeedEvilThe stores can if they choose vet apps credentials, and only permit sane ones.17:30
jabiswithout the source control any and all apps with malicious intent can be delivered to any one "store" that hasn't got proper QA for code17:31
jabisand then you end up like android play store17:31
SpeedEvilNot quite.17:31
SpeedEvilYou end up with the situation where anyone can open an unsecure store - but that doesn't stop the default being more secure.17:31
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jabiswell - we clearly have different views on the design choices for security :) pointless to argue ^^17:36
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jabisDocScrutinizer05: btw your remark about aegis holds true only to its current immature revision :)17:37
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DocScrutinizer05sure you can improve virtually everything to a point where it actually meets/exceeds arbitrary requirements. The question is how much of your initial stuff is still untweaked when you get there17:39
SpeedEvilAnd it only holds true for educated users.17:39
jabistrue, true - but the lack in codebase and implementation is what is making it "worse" than what it actually is intended17:40
DocScrutinizer05the intention of the whole thing is still something I'm wondering about17:41
jabiswell it holds true to uneducated users not getting the apps they'd like17:41
jabisas well as educated ones17:41
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jabiswell I think that one needs a (working) security framework for such an open product17:44
jabisbut as the titled framework - one needs to be able to control it - modify the behaviour17:45
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heymasterWhere to store passwords on harmattan?18:41
rigothere is a private thing that is crypted, no?18:45
rigoBTW, big thanks guys. Backup? Drama? No! apt-get install rsync -> Done. <318:46
heymasterrigo: just password. On iPhone there is KeyChain to store passwords18:47
rigoif jollamobile gets out of the swamp, I'll be part of the party18:47
rigoheymaster: apt-get install keychain then18:47
rigoif you know what you're doing18:47
rigoit's just linux after all18:48
heymasterrigo: I'm coding app. Want to store password :)18:48
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rigoyes, on N9 at least there is a private directory with cryptfs on it. There you can store things. Or you do the classic linux stuff18:50
rigo /home/user/private that is18:50
jonniheymaster: is you dont care about security you can just use QSettings, and if you want to encrypt it then aegisfs.18:50
rigohey jonni, going jolla too?18:51
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jonnirigo: dont know, I sent my CV to Marc a week ago but no interview requests yet ;-)18:54
DocScrutinizer05jonni: good luck!18:55
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NamekHi, I'm trying to run an app at boot as "user" but it's runned as "nobody" my .conf points to an script exec /usr/bin/aegis-exec -s -u user -l "exec /opt/test/bin/" > /var/log/test.log 2>&1 in the script I print an string and also the current user and I get nobody, is there something that I'm missing?19:12
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zx2c4any word on 1.3 for n950?19:19
itsnotabigtruckjesus, not more endless bitching about aegis19:23
itsnotabigtruckand "and I think inception adds unneccessary permissions to certain apps as well"19:24
itsnotabigtruckjabis: what do you mean?19:24
itsnotabigtruckinception doesn't add any permissions to anything except the utilities it comes with, by itself19:24
zx2c4itsnotabigtruck, hey i was just reading aegeis source code19:24
itsnotabigtruckand apps that you install with 'incept' only get the permissions they specifically ask for19:25
itsnotabigtruckzx2c4: yeah?19:25
zx2c4question -- i saw written various places that inception relies on an aegeis security vuln to break it? didn't realize this was how it worked. i then heard that 0.1 did it one way,a nd 0.2 does it a new way. what are the vulns it exploits exactly?19:25
itsnotabigtruckwell, you can look at the source code and see19:26
itsnotabigtruck0.1, 0.1.1, and 0.2 all use different privilege escalation flaws19:26
itsnotabigtrucknothing wrong with that, it was the only thing that can be done anyway19:26
zx2c4where are the old tarballs19:26
zx2c4exploit code is in pasiv, right?19:26
itsnotabigtrucknot sure if they're anywhere convenient19:27
zx2c4ahaha so19:27
zx2c4the exploit is19:27
zx2c4and using PERL5OPT19:27
itsnotabigtruckhaha, yep19:27
zx2c4well done19:27
itsnotabigtruckit's pretty hilarious19:28
itsnotabigtruckanyway, none of the exploits have any exploitability on normal linux systems19:28
zx2c4yea thats absurdly simple19:28
itsnotabigtruckbecause they all rely on bugs in aegis code or openings to take over aegis code19:28
itsnotabigtruckthat's trusted by the system19:28
zx2c4so aegeis assumes that dpkg will only do nice trusted things?19:28
zx2c4or do these env vars get picked up by some other ageis command?19:28
itsnotabigtruckdpkg with aegis is a perl script19:29
itsnotabigtrucknot the normal debian dpkg19:29
zx2c4oh. oh, god. oh.19:29
itsnotabigtruckand /usr/bin/dpkg is granted god credentials19:29
zx2c4thats outrageous19:29
itsnotabigtruckas long as it isn't modified directly (the hash matches)19:29
itsnotabigtruckso you can't just add system("sh") at the top and run it19:29
zx2c4so you probably can also play with perl include modules19:29
zx2c4what were the previous priv esc you used?19:30
itsnotabigtruck0.1.1 used some bug where said perl script granted credentials that weren't supposed to be granted19:30
itsnotabigtruckup to and including said "god credentials"19:30
itsnotabigtruck0.1 used a chroot to cause one of two perl scripts trusted with maximum credentials to be executed with my exploit as the interpreter19:31
zx2c4they fixed the chroot bug?19:32
itsnotabigtruckno but they put in a bunch of ancillary hacks that made it hard to exploit19:32
itsnotabigtruckgenerally all of the problems stem from aegis being designed around granting access out of thin air19:32
itsnotabigtruckrather than reducing access to only what's needed19:32
itsnotabigtruckthat means *everything* needs to be designed with precision to avoid leaking access19:32
itsnotabigtruckand there isn't much precision to be seen19:33
zx2c4this kernel is old too19:33
zx2c4have you audited the aegeis kernel module at all?19:33
zx2c4wonder if there are some really attrocious things in that too19:34
zx2c4/usr/bin/dpkg and /usr/bin/dpkg.real are ELF on my phone...19:35
jabisitsnotabigtruck: I meant that the tokens you add to local package (tcb) is over the top for most apps - and inception grants that to all local packages :) Inception is great as we have no alternative, and ariadne brings a bit security to the table, but I'd rather use source control instead of a hack in aegis19:39
jabisitsnotabigtruck: I dunno how much you read about the discussion, but I was expecting tools instead of "holes" in the framework itself, and not from community, but from the distributor :)19:40
jabisitsnotabigtruck: and I remain in gratitude for you, because of inception, no doubt ^^19:41
itsnotabigtruckjabis: a 'local' package is a package that's been installed with the incept command19:41
itsnotabigtruckwhich prompts for your root password for confirmation19:42
itsnotabigtruckand only packages that are both a) installed through incept, and b) explicitly request tcb permission19:42
jabisyup - escalating tcb tokens for every and each one - tho they only get what they request, but it's permissive19:42
itsnotabigtruckactually obtain tcb permission19:42
itsnotabigtruckthe assumption is that when you use incept, you know what you're doing19:43
itsnotabigtruckand all of this stuff is really pretty silly since an actual evil app could just copy in the exploit pasiv uses now and gain tcb access with no fuss19:43
itsnotabigtruckbut i put a lot of attention into making sure inception 0.2 wouldn't open up any security issues on its own19:44
jabisyes yes - I understand that logic - but I only stated it is a hack - no real "consumer" would want to go thru with it :)19:44
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itsnotabigtruckyou're right that it probably isn't appropriate for 'joe blow'19:45
itsnotabigtruckit is probably ok for anyone with a few brain cells, that wants to overclock/run terminal commands that require true root/etc.19:45
jabisthat's why a source control works better than a token of trust for all apps :)19:45
itsnotabigtrucknot sure what you mean by "source control"19:45
itsnotabigtruckand you might as well give up on nokia changing its tune, especially since there's no one left working there to change the tune19:46
itsnotabigtruckit was time to forget about that close to a year ago19:46
jabissource control ( == superset of permissions) vs accept from non-trusted source == 4-5 additional permissions - key ingredients locked out19:47
itsnotabigtrucksorry if i'm being a little bit harsh, but your argument seems like a softer version of what some haters here have gone on and on and on about19:47
jabisand I was not talking about nokia - but of Jolla :)19:47
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jabisand the need for a security framework and what aegis is and is supposed to be :)19:48
jabisall in general19:48
itsnotabigtruckcertain individuals really seem to hate the idea of taking things into your own hands and hacking around irritating security measures19:48
jabisapp control is futile vs source control :)19:48
jabisand source control should be in the hands of users19:48
itsnotabigtrucker, "source control" is the problem19:48
jabisapp control not so much19:48
jabiswell source == app privileges == fail19:49
itsnotabigtruckspecifically nokia designing a system specifically enabling them to say that everyone else is controlled and they aren't19:49
itsnotabigtruckwhich is all "source control" is really good for19:49
itsnotabigtruckit's a pretty messy system that doesn't allow any sort of fine-grained access management19:49
itsnotabigtruckit ends up coming down to nokia vs not nokia19:49
jabisyes - that we all agreed on :)19:49
rigoapt-get update hangs at usr/bin/osa --packages19:50
jabisthe question was should there be a security enforcement from distributor or should not - and if, why and how to acchieve etc19:50
rigojabis, I think there is no single answer to that question19:51
itsnotabigtruckwell, clearly if there is one, there needs to be a smooth way to reconfigure it or something like that19:51
jabisitsnotabigtruck: I commend aegis as an effort - not the end product that's totally screwy and misused and misdesigned, immature19:51
itsnotabigtruckespecially because ios and android have captured the average joe crowd19:51
itsnotabigtruckanything else needs to cater to hackers as well as regular users19:51
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rigoto lax -> android - chaos too strict - dev-frustration19:51
itsnotabigtruckthink of a phone as a pocket computer19:52
rigoso I think having two modes is the way out:19:52
itsnotabigtrucknot a locked down terminal owned by everybody but the user19:52
rigo 1/ I want a hacker - device19:52
rigo 2/ I want a working device19:52
itsnotabigtrucki like the idea of security, if it's security on MY BEHALF ONLY19:52
rigochose between..... :)19:52
itsnotabigtruckwhen you guys talk about security, you aren't talking about that19:52
itsnotabigtruckwhich is what's intensely frustrating19:52
jabiswell the 'joe blow' would like his credit card numbers and files safe as well :)19:53
itsnotabigtruckthat's a false dichotomy19:53
itsnotabigtruckyou don't have to seize the keys from the user's hand to make a system that keeps their data safe19:53
rigoitsnotabigtruck, I humbly disagree : Steve Jobs has locked down things to control the experience and to make the perfect device19:53
rigo which doesn't go well with chaos19:54
itsnotabigtruckjust because the iphone is successful doesn't mean that's why19:54
itsnotabigtrucksteve jobs and apple were/are control freaks that want to dominate every facet of the product from manufacture to landfill19:54
itsnotabigtruckthat isn't necessary to come out ahead19:55
rigobut it doesn't mean it's mean either. That's why I argue for an open / closed mode depending on your needs and taste19:55
jabisI agree and disagree - and I'm not one of "you guys" I'm pondering the security framework as a tool - not a hindrance - both for hackers/developers point of view and the end user's :)19:55
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jabisaegis === pieceofcrap at it's current, BUT nonetheless the only vendor provided (in)sane security measure ever tried19:56
M4rtinKsane, really ? :)19:57
zx2c4iOS has code signing and a fairly restrictive sandbox...19:57
zx2c4        rv = (int)aegis_crypto_sign(md.d, DIGESTLEN, cred, &sig);19:57
zx2c4        if (rv != (int)aegis_crypto_ok) {19:58
zx2c4            if (errno != 0)19:58
zx2c4                return -errno;19:58
zx2c4            return -EPERM;19:58
zx2c4        }19:58
zx2c4        aegis_crypto_signature_to_string(&sig, aegis_as_hexstring, cred, &str);19:58
zx2c4i cant believe you got your hands dirty with all this19:58
zx2c4looks like such a headache19:58
jabisI disagree with the root certs being at hands of vendors, instead of the user - very much19:58
jabisM4rtinK: still talking about the tool itself - not it's current state (as mentioned several times :)19:59
M4rtinKjabis: yeah - but I think it is pretty unlikely it will ever be used properly20:00
jabisI hope Jolla will succeed and we'll see something more polished utilization20:00
jabisthe thing totally lacking is user control over aegis - without hacks :) If you had one - you'd prolly be ok with it - it's just a signature and hashfile x)20:01
M4rtinKit is also funny that all the tokens are not presented to the user in any way :)20:02
itsnotabigtruckzx2c4: lol20:04
itsnotabigtruckyeah, error handling in c is super messy20:04
zx2c4well, not just error handling20:04
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zx2c4but just20:04
zx2c4all those aegeis functions20:04
zx2c4and then above that you parse some awful format20:04
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itsnotabigtrucki don't think i did any parsing in the inception code...20:04
itsnotabigtruckunless you're talking about processing the command line arguments20:04
itsnotabigtruckprobably could have used getopt or something like that but it would have ended up just as long and messy20:05
zx2c4you parse bsd ar format20:05
zx2c4in the pkgsigner20:05
itsnotabigtruckzx2c4: oh, whoops20:09
itsnotabigtruckforgot about that, it's been a long time since i wrote that20:09
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it's pretty gnarly20:09
itsnotabigtruckkind of ridiculous that the deb format is based on that (which is used by essentially nothing else)20:09
azeemstatic libraries are lumped together with ar, no?20:10
jabishope you didn't get offended trucker ^^20:10
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itsnotabigtruckoff topic:
itsnotabigtruckjabis: nah, it's cool20:18
itsnotabigtruckazeem: yeah20:18
itsnotabigtruckhowever, using a slightly different ar format20:18
itsnotabigtruckand nothing besides static libraries and deb files use any kind of ar archive, afaik20:18 wasn't so popular in 9220:18
itsnotabigtruckbut what's really weird is that deb format contains tar archives inside an ar archive20:19
itsnotabigtruckthey could have at least made it just one tar archive or something20:19
azeemit nicely seperates the metadata from the payload20:19
azeemand makes it possible to easily extend it in principle, without breaking everything20:20
itsnotabigtruckright, like what aegis does20:20
itsnotabigtruckwhat incept is doing is adding another ar archive member called _localsig at the end20:21
azeemAFAIK that's how package GPG signing works in Debian as well20:21
itsnotabigtruckwhich dpkg pulls back out and matches to the source20:21
azeemexcept it's not officially supported20:21
itsnotabigtruckthere was an attempt to do it that way but it never caught on20:21
itsnotabigtrucknow it's for all intents and purposes dead20:21
itsnotabigtruckeverybody uses apt signing instead20:21
azeemthose are orthogonal, but yeah20:22
itsnotabigtruckwell, not really, they're two different approaches to the same thing20:22
azeemwell, ok20:22
itsnotabigtruckwhich is authentication of downloaded packages20:22
itsnotabigtruckwhich almost always come through apt20:22
azeemI'd argue the apt signing is authentication *before* downloading packafges20:22
zx2c4any n950ers in here atm?20:22
itsnotabigtruckhmm? apt signing authenticates the release file, which authenticates the package list, which authenticates the package files20:23
itsnotabigtruckthrough sha hashes20:23
azeemright, but what do you do with a downloaded .deb?20:23
itsnotabigtrucknothing, but on a normal debian system, everything is almost always obtained through apt20:24
azeemno easy way to authenticate it AFAIK20:24
azeemthat's where package signing might've jumped in20:24
itsnotabigtruckso apt signing is "good enough"20:24
itsnotabigtruckon debian you're not really supposed to just download a deb20:24
itsnotabigtrucknow, that breaks down with a situation like harmattan20:24
azeemsure, I'm still doing it all the time anyway, though20:24
itsnotabigtruckbut it seems nokia implemented its own solution for that with _x509sig, _gpgsig, and _localsig20:24
zx2c4i wish nokia would just open source the platform20:26
zx2c4it's dead anyway for them20:26
zx2c4let us take it over20:26
japhzx2c4, yes20:27
zx2c4can't some nokia dev at least leak it20:27
zx2c4he's gonna be fired soon anyway20:27
itsnotabigtruckzx2c4: but if they leaked it, said dev might be fired AND sued20:27
zx2c4yea. so i guess it'd have to be leaked carefully20:28
itsnotabigtruckthey might be laying off half their employee base but they probably aren't laying off the lawyers20:28
zx2c4why arent all the developers internally revolting and demanding it be open sourced?20:28
zx2c4they know their days are numbered20:28
zx2c4raise the red flag of nokia revolution20:29
zx2c4off with elops head20:29
zx2c4egalite libertie fraterntie of harmattan20:29
azeemthe lawyers would form a circle around elop, and both remaining developers couldn't get at him20:29
zx2c4we need a brutus!20:29
Lava_Croftkeep blaming elop20:30
azeembesides, the meego team probably knew they were working on a partly proprietary platform when they signed up, so leaking it now would be quite illoyal20:30
Lava_Croftthe people truly responsible are thankful20:30
Lava_Croftthey sit on their fat paychecks while Elop gets to dodge all the tomatoes20:30
zx2c4Lava_Croft, who do you think the conspirators are?20:30
Lava_Croftits not a conspiracy20:31
Lava_Croftits a case of criminally bad management20:31
Lava_Croftover the course of years and years20:31
zx2c4clearly nokia never landed on the moon!!!!!20:31
Lava_Croftleading to a situation where an ex MS employee gets to run Nokia20:31
zx2c4im so angry20:33
zx2c4ive got a spare n950 here20:33
Lava_Croftwhy anger20:33
zx2c4maybe ill just put nitdroid on it20:33
macmaNzx2c4: why not contribute to nemo instead20:34
alteregoWould be nice if you contributed to20:34
Lava_Croftyeah, what good does android do20:34
zx2c4macmaN, ?20:34
Lava_Croftor get us20:34
zx2c4oh, mr20:35
alteregozx2c4: what are your main interests and skillset?20:35
macmaNheh zx2c4 :> i thought nobody in #harmattan would not confuse that one20:35
alteregozx2c4: are you end user? App developer? Systems integrator? Hardware adaptations? Platform development?20:36
zx2c4alterego, on one hand, I'm a Qt developer for a company, on the other hand I'm a security researcher for another company. i also spend time futzing with distros. so my skill sets kind of all over the place20:36
Lava_Croftwhats your forte20:36
alteregozx2c4: well that's great, I'm sure you'd be a valuable asset to the community if you're willing to get wet and dirty with us ;)20:37
alteregoFind something you'd like to do, and do it :)20:37
zx2c4Lava_Croft, dunno. i kind of learn what i need to learn to get a certain job done20:37
Lava_Croftyes, but everybody has his forte20:37
Lava_Croftthe thing he is best at20:37
Lava_Croftwith which he feels most at home20:37
zx2c4alterego, well, what's going on with mer/nemo/whatever? what's the status? what's to be done? does it run on telephones? or is it still really in its infancy?20:38
alteregoLava_Croft: not sure, I have at least 3 or 4 specialist areas I like to contribute in ;)20:38
zx2c4Lava_Croft, probably math20:38
Lava_Croftzx2c4: heard of Jolla Mobile?20:38
Lava_Croftalterego: yes, but theres always one thing thats closest to your heart:)20:38
alteregozx2c4: runs on N900/950/9 :)20:38
zx2c4Lava_Croft, haha yea ive been newly motivated by it...20:38
alteregoLava_Croft: depends, if you're fine doing one thing, personally I get a bit bored and enjoy moving around.20:38
Lava_Croftthats not my point20:38
alteregoHelps my productivity as it allows me to be more mobile when I get slightly stagnant.20:38
zx2c4you think Jolla will make something decent? continue the dream? openmoko hasn't done much...20:39
alteregozx2c4: well, you could start by joining20:39
alteregoJoining #mer, and maybe looking at the bugzilla? :)20:39
Lava_Croftat least mer has a good base20:39
alteregoTest nemo on your device and find the bits you think are lacking and that you feel you can improve. :)20:39
alteregoLava_Croft: mer _is_ a good base ;)20:39
Lava_Croftthat too20:40
Lava_Croftditch yum20:40
* Lava_Croft flees the scene20:40
zx2c4Lava_Croft, I mean... i do stuff like but then i do stuff like too, which is totally separate, so i dunno bout a forté20:40
zx2c4alterego, so... nemo actually is capable of making calls and sms and its a real working platform?20:41
Stskeepsnemo can make calls and sms, yes20:41
alteregozx2c4: nemo has been able to make calls for a loooong time, I know I helped develop that area ;)20:41
alteregoBack when nemo was MeeGo Community Edition ;)20:42
Lava_Croftnemo is basically the only living thing thats left in the world of 'free' mobile devices20:42
Lava_Croftand software20:42
Stskeepsalterego: speaking of which20:42
Stskeepsalterego: install nemo onto your n950 and test phonecalls...20:42
alteregoIs it broken? :x20:42
jabisthen again nemo is all over the place -.-20:42
* alterego does a nemo build20:42
alteregoCan we move this convo to #mer? Should be more on topic there.20:43
alteregoDon't want to piss off DocScrutinizer05 :P20:43
Lava_Croftand thats easily accomplished!20:43
alteregoDocScrutinizer05: :P20:44
DocScrutinizer05I'm not pissed by nemo discussions in here, as i'm generally not pissed by off topic as long as nobody complains20:44
alteregoSorry, I always remember MeeGo being a point of contention with you :P20:44
Lava_Croftmy remark was more about the ease of pissing you off ;)20:44
Lava_Croftand alterego is right:)20:45
Lava_Croftbut people get softer as they grow older!20:45
Lava_Croftmore mellow;)20:45
jabisI get more grumpy with the age20:45
jabisbut I think being an entrepreneur for tenth year contributes to that x)20:46
macmaNhmm. i wonder i can have portage on mer20:47
alteregomacmaN: maybe chroot? :P20:47
macmaNwell i can, with gentoo prefix20:47
macmaNbut as system pkg mgr20:47
heymaster <<< I don't know if need to use only client or and daemon.20:52
heymasterI want to store passwords20:53
ZogG_laptopAard: ping20:54
ZogG_laptopAard: btw one thing more wanted20:54
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ZogG_laptopone more thing i wanted to ask20:54
ZogG_laptopjust one moment20:55
befordseeing comments from the store app are not working right?20:59
befordoh and thanks for your comment ZogG_laptop :p21:01
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nemoVMdamn alwazs get a black screen wehen using maalit in nemo/vm21:03
ZogG_laptopAard: sorry just pinged you and phone called21:03
ZogG_laptopso i tried to type and talk but it didn't work well21:03
ZogG_laptopAard: Stskeeps is there info how releases and updates would be on Jolla?21:03
Aardbetter than with harmattan, hopefully ;)21:04
StskeepsZogG_laptop: can't talk about that yet, sorry, please stand by21:04
ZogG_laptopAard: i mean in maemo what was disappointing is some srs bugs were held till release update21:04
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ZogG_laptopand i think it's wrong thing21:04
ZogG_laptopStskeeps: i meant not how often and so on, just this paticular thing ^21:05
Aardyes, I (as in not speaking for jolla-I) agree. speaking for jolla I can't comment21:05
ZogG_laptopis it planned to release bug fixes only in small updates or even critical bugs would have wait?21:05
ZogG_laptopAard: than i hope you push it up =)21:05
alteregoI hope they go FOSS release quick release often. But it's very much up to how they want to work.21:06
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alteregoAnd they have to go through extensive testing procedures.21:06
alteregoIt's really not something that can be guessed at right now.21:06
Stskeepswell at least core part goes21:06
alteregoSure, but core wont be in charge of Jolla updates.21:07
ZogG_laptopthan stable unstable model like in linux distro is welcome21:10
alteregoZogG_laptop: they also have to adhere to EU guidelines and international laws when it comes to the reliability of their software.21:10
Stskeepswhat, you expect reliable software? i thought this was OSS ;)21:10
alteregoWe're talking about official distribution here. You'll hopefully be free to stay at the bleeding edge by using your device with the latest of the latest. But official updates have to be tested up to certain standards.21:11
alteregoVery complicated rules ;)21:11
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ZogG_laptopStskeeps: if you want end user phone you can't be bleeding edge and stable =0)21:21
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ZogG_laptopthat's why i asked question as i am as advanced user would like to take risk for latest software, if there would be option for dev repo. As most annoying bug for maemo when it starts music on silent was fixed and i had to wait more than half year to get it =)21:23
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heymasterZogG_laptop: can you help how to store password on harmatton ?21:35
heymasterI created thread
heymasterDon't know I need to set up daemon to store passwords :)21:39
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TheBootroonow that PR1.3 is out for N9, can we have a way to upgrade the N950 to 1.3 too or at least 1.2 ?22:06
TheBootroois it safe to flash a N950 with a N9 image ?22:06
rzri dont think it is possible22:07
jonninope you cannot flash n9 image, different signing key.22:08
TheBootroookay   :-(22:09
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rzrbut a such fw exists22:10
djszapi_rzr: would you mind porting libindi to Harmattan?22:10
djszapi_I mean, it needs "only" packaging for Harmattan since it is a library.22:10
rzrdjszapi_, i put it on my list , but cant do that today22:11
djszapi_when can you?22:11
rzrnext week i hope22:11
rzrbtw any comments on the news ?22:13
djszapi_rzr: so much news, so unsure which one you are referring to ^^22:14
rzrthe major one :)22:14
djszapi_well, I am happy, I am back to Ireland, which is the major for me ^^22:15
rzru there already ?22:16
rzrthen we share a common celtic culture now22:16
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ZogG_laptopheymaster: passwords for what?22:18
TheBootroorzr;  what  do you think about JollaMobile annouce ?22:19
rzri am dont think anymore , but very exited about it !22:19
ZogG_laptoprzr: aren't you french?22:19
rzri am22:20
heymasterZogG_laptop: passwords for server login. but don't mind I will use aegis_crypto_encrypt function.22:20
TheBootrooZogG_laptop:  why are you asking that ? you find his english so poor that he MUST be french ?  i am too :D22:20
TheBootroorzr: héhé :D22:21
rzranyway my French is also poor too :)22:21
TheBootroorzr: XD22:21
djszapi_rzr: I do not have a culture ;)22:21
TheBootroorzr: do you plan packages up-to-date for Qt5 on N950 (PR1.1)  ?22:21
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: i just know he is french, that's it22:21
rzrif we had one we wont be here22:22
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: ;-)22:22
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rzrTheBootroo, there is already a repo for qt5 but lot of thing should be done in that shared repo de la mort qui tue22:22
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TheBootroorzr: is the version quite up-to-date or was it pushed only once, when the project using it was issued in first akpha ?22:23
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djszapi_TheBootroo: Qt5 is unusable yet anyway22:24
djszapi_TheBootroo: I would recommend awating the beta, really.22:25
TheBootroodjszapi_: really , on my computer (Ubuntu 12.04) the first alpha from PPA work quite good22:25
TheBootroodjszapi_: yeah but i hope the beta will not be delayed22:25
djszapi_it will not.22:26
djszapi_define "work quite good"22:26
djszapi_it built ? That is not a big achievement22:26
rzrTheBootroo, are you using it ?22:27
rigoHi, I try to flash my phone and flasher -i gives me Device identifier and then says Error claiming USB interface: Device or resource busy22:27
SpeedEvilAre you root?22:27
TheBootroodjszapi_: some of my QML projects are starting and have less graphic bugs than OpenGL graphic system in 4.8, and perfs are about 2x better22:27
rigobut I ssh'ed into root. Will try with su22:28
TheBootroorzr: i really would like to experiment a lot of things that are coming with Qt5, on my computer and on my phone22:28
djszapi_TheBootroo: actually, the performance is worse22:28
djszapi_as for Harmattan due to the booster thingy22:29
djszapi_moreover, 4.8 is way more mature wrt bugs22:29
TheBootroodjszapi_: i didn't tested it on harmattan so i believe what you say22:29
djszapi_5.0 is not about fixing bugs, but introducing more for good.22:29
rigorats, still error claiming USB interface22:29
rigorats, still error claiming USB interface22:30
TheBootroodjszapi_: but we will forgive it because there will be so much good things aside of bugs ;-)22:30
djszapi_rigo: still error ?22:30
djszapi_rigo: still error ?22:30
djszapi_TheBootroo: really, just wait for the beta.22:30
rigosorry :-/22:30
djszapi_life will be much simpler.22:30
TheBootroodjszapi_: yes, definetely i'm going to wait22:31
djszapi_rzr: re jolla, how cares about meego xD22:31
infobotdjszapi_ meant: rzr: re jolla, who cares about meego xD22:31
TheBootroodjszapi_: is there somewere a preliminary doc of the QML elements that will be introduced in Qt5 ? will we still need C++/QML mix for every single feature (file, db, etc)22:32
djszapi_TheBootroo: yes and yes22:32
ZogG_laptopheymaster: the question if you want to make account and store data there or use config and store there22:32
TheBootroodjszapi_: well at least i hope C++ and QML interactions will be simplified ans still more powerfull22:33
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: i think for any serious app you would need C++22:42
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: which is Qt22:43
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: i thought Qt5 would bring most of the Qt C++ Api to QML22:43
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: i find quite painful to use C++ with QML22:43
TheBootrooihope this will be simpler in Qt522:43
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: why is that?22:43
djszapi_TheBootroo: simpler what?22:44
TheBootroodjszapi_: to share code  between C++ and QML22:44
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: you can try to maek simple apps with JS and QML only22:44
rigofound the solution:22:44
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: i already did a lot22:44
djszapi_TheBootroo: it is simple enough22:44
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: what do you mean share code?22:44
djszapi_ZogG_laptop: he means to access to the C++ code from QML.22:45
djszapi_but it is not that hard. Perhaps for a designer, yes.22:45
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: have an  app with UI in QML and JS and  C++ code for File access, db queries, plugins management etc22:45
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: you can call functions from C++ inside QML and get results, what else do you need?22:45
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: without complicating the deployement22:45
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: you see, it's like RISC and CISC22:46
rigoI added a couple of lines to the /etc/modprobe.d/50-blacklist.conf file thus22:46
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: i would need to still be able to start a qml project which uses my custom QML class in C++ withtout the need of hard installation, just qmlviewer e.g.22:46
rigoblacklist cdc_phonet22:46
rigoblacklist phonet22:46
rigofor those who happen to google this later22:46
ZogG_laptopif you want to develop good stuff and good qualty you need to work on details, if you want one line code - use html =)22:46
ZogG_laptoprigo: you tried to use usb network?22:47
TheBootrooZogG_laptop:  i need apps to be testable without compilation for easy prototyping22:47
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: use python =)22:48
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: i would like to develop QML plugins in C++ and then put them in a FULL Qml project that will be started by qmlviewer, with the plugins in a subdir, not insttalled in the system22:48
rigoafter removing phonet, I get: ERROR: Unable to enumerate USB buses!22:48
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: i think you can do it22:49
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: no thanks, no python for my, 3 languages are enough to me22:49
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: really ?22:49
rigoZogG_laptop: I try to flash my N9 to pr1.3 as I won't get automatic update as it turned into open mode when I unbricked it after an xorg screw up22:49
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: have a plugins dirs in the project and qml will find the import in qml ?22:49
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: AFAIK you can do custom QML elements with C++22:49
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: yes i know22:49
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: fo development you can install them localy for scratchbox or QtCreator22:50
ZogG_laptopand than include them as lib for install22:50
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: but you must provied many things with them (qmldir, .so, etc) and install it in a particular way into the OS? but i want NO installaion, only plugins in a subdir of the app dir22:50
ZogG_laptopOr to make mega pack of them and other devs can use them =)22:50
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ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: but you see, there are 2 options:22:51
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: my first need is No Install22:51
ZogG_laptop1) u use those qml components everyday in development, than you don't want them to be included per app, but to include as lib on device so all those app can use it22:52
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: qmlviewer starts the main.qml and if it finds plugins dir in the qml project dir it imports it22:52
ZogG_laptop2)it's one time thing so you can do it the way you do or without qml custom thing22:52
TheBootrooZogG_laptop: qml custom items i want are for specific apps and / or others apps, but i don't want to have to modify the system (no /usr/lib modification), all must be in the project dir and must be startable from a simple qmlviewer (the only provided by SDk, or a custom one)22:54
TheBootrooso is there a way to let know to my QML file that the C++ plugin he need is in a subfolder and not in global OS22:54
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: ?22:56
ZogG_laptopfirst answer?22:56
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: or this22:57
ZogG_laptopor it's not the same22:57
ZogG_laptopi might didn't understand your question as i never used or tried to make my own custom plugin for qml22:57
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TheBootrooZogG_laptop: what i want to achiveve is to be able to start any QML app (a main.qml) with a generic qmlviewer that will find the needed qml plugins in the project dir instead of needing to put the import in the system and develop a new QmlApplicationViewer each time and do a compilation (i want skip the compile part, for easy  tests)23:00
TheBootrooi will look at your links and try some things23:00
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ZogG_laptopagain i don't really know how it works, so can't help you here =\23:04
ZogG_laptopTheBootroo: you may ask at #qt-qml though23:08
jonniyou can set the custom searchpaths for plugins from c++ side.23:09
jonnifor generic qmlviewer your out of luck, but you can make custom viewer with addImportPath included.23:12
jonni(and you don't have to even do that, since by defautl system also searches your project dir for plugins (you can use strace forexample to see which paths are searched)23:13
rigoworked on laptop. so not only blacklisting phonet, but also reboot it seems. I had done all that on laptop but forgot about it23:13
rigonow flashing, let' see the surprises23:13
TheBootroojonni: 1000x thkxs23:13
jonniTheBootroo: and almost forgot that on default qmlviewer you can also use -I option to add import path from commandline ;)23:14
heymasterZogG_laptop: just store sensitive data in config23:15
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jonniTheBootroo: and forget the -I as it was only for modules and not plugins :)23:16
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jonniTheBootroo: heh, too tired and crosseyes, actually -I does work, I just have bad memory :)23:18
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jonnitime to go to sleep it seems :O)23:19
rigoflashed with success, lost all apps23:23
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ZogG_laptoplol just turned on TV and there is Tron there, he is uploading all data to internet. their meeting reminds me Elop comming to Nokia23:37
Arieim having gtalk problems23:37
ZogG_laptopArie: bad for you =(23:37
Ariewhen i log into gtalk23:38
Arieit tells me cant import contacts23:38
Ariebut i can send and receive messages23:38
ZogG_laptopcreadding it?23:38
Ariedelete the account and readd it you mean?23:39
ZogG_laptopand you have combinied pr1.2 and pr1.3 parts right?23:39
Ariesame issue with jabber too23:39
Ariesort of23:39
Arieissue started today23:39
ZogG_laptopyou was blocked by all servers =)23:40
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pahm.. idle consumption is now 5mW in flight mode. with pr1.2 it was 4mW with radio on23:50
pai had the feeling it drained the battery..23:50
pamaybe i should just reflash?23:50
SpeedEvilYou do know that's the difference between 10 days, and 12 days battery life?23:50
SpeedEvilErr - 30 and 3523:51
SpeedEvilIf that's actually mW23:51
SpeedEviland not mA23:51
palet me see how much it is with radio on23:51
pabut in any case23:51
SpeedEvilAlso - it will vary depending on battery voltage if it's mA23:51
pathere is something there using cpu23:51
pai wonder what, and hwy23:52
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