IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2012-07-05

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ajalkaneheymaster: what you mean with writing settings?00:00
ajalkanea configuration file?00:00
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heymasterajalkane: seperate settings for harmattan and symbian00:01
heymastersay different qml files00:01
ajalkaneah... for example:00:02
ajalkanesymbian {00:02
ajalkane ... do stuff00:02
heymasterand unix?00:02
ajalkaneunix {00:03
ajalkane ... do stuff00:03
ajalkanefor Harmattan (aka meego) you can use00:03
ajalkane!isEmpty(MEEGO_VERSION_MAJOR) {00:03
ajalkaneThat's how you can differentiate between desktop linux and MeeGo00:04
heymasterajalkane: thanks. and which define i need to use for cpp code?00:04
heymasteri need to declear define in pro file between unix: {} ?00:05
ajalkaneIn C++? I think it's best to set-up defines for C++ in the .pro file00:05
ajalkaneDEFINES += "mydefine"00:05
ajalkanenp... hope to see your N9 app soon :)00:06
heymasterajalkane: :)00:07
jabisslow ass vmdk creator00:08
jabisany good tutorials for capturing c++ signals in qml?00:11
ajalkanejabis: QtQuick UI in Qt docs00:11
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DocScrutinizerjust in case anybody needs it for testing ow whatever: 1.3-openmode-kernel available00:26
jabisthrow a link Doc - man I'd need another phone just for testing stuff -.-00:30
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niwakameI'll call it a day, sleep well!00:38
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DocScrutinizeridentical patches as with 1.2-om-kernel01:02
arcean_DocScrutinizer: thanks :)01:02
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jabisDocScrutinizer: where did you dig up the 1.3 src? :)01:22
jabisDocScrutinizer: or did you just mix & mash the packages01:25
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DocScrutinizerjabis: no comment. Read my previous statements regarding the whole topic01:57
DocScrutinizere.g the readme files in 1.1 and/or 1.2 om-kernel dirs01:58
jabisDocScrutinizer: I saw the diffs earlier, and have read the readme's, but the SDK hasn't been updated, which made me ask :)02:05
DocScrutinizermaemo has some nice guys, even at places where a lot of users never would expect them02:06
DocScrutinizeror look at me, nobody would think I'm a nice guy ;-P02:07
jabisheh ^^02:07
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DocScrutinizerotoh a binary diff3 between original and om 1.2 kernel and om 1.3 kernel won't probably show anything surprising02:09
DocScrutinizerwhatever, no source02:10
DocScrutinizeror... "for source, you transfer 30 bucks processing fee and your addr for sending DVD to the following account: ..."02:10
jabisany news if/when the sources will be made available? my phone is flashed to 1.3 so I can't downgrade x) wifey decided it's upgrade tiem and OTA failed - again02:11
DocScrutinizerplease allow 2..4 months processing time02:11
DocScrutinizeror simply pester Nokia about the src, I think they are as fast and cheap as me to deliver that DVD02:13
jabismeh x)02:13
DocScrutinizerprobably faster and cheaper02:13
jabisa deb-src and user/password combo would been better x)02:14
DocScrutinizersorry, don't have02:14
DocScrutinizeras already mentioned, I patched the kernel on binary level ;-P02:16
rzrpr1.3 @ n950 ?02:25
rzrpr1.3 @ n950 ?
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itsnotabigtruckrzr: your url doesn't seem to work02:32
Sniper_swewhats the easiest way to restore all app after fladhing pr1.3?02:46
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itsnotabigtruckinstalling them :p02:50
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Sniper_sweyeah but all at once or backing them up somehow?:)02:53
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jabisSniper_swe: I already told you - as root "dpkg --get-selection > packagelist" for getting the packages -without quotes of course:)03:25
jabissorry typoed --get-selections03:26
jabisand then edit the list to exclude any system packages03:27
jabisthen when you've flashed03:27
jabisdpkg --set-selections < packagelist03:27
jabisfollowed by03:27
jabisapt-get -u dselect-upgrade03:27
Sniper_sweokay smart:) did the first part but put it in MyDocs:)03:29
jabisbe sure to exclude the system stuff or you might run into a conflict :)03:31
Sniper_sweok. put it on pc now. will edit file and then flash tomorrow:) 02 30 here03:33
Sniper_swefyi i have spent whole day with this;p03:35
Sniper_sweshit there are alot of paxkages to remove03:35
Sniper_swewere can i find my " bookmarks" its not in /usr/share/applications as everything else03:44
Sniper_swefound them under /home/user/.local/share/applications03:47
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rantomSo there's no way to file new bugs, easily, to Nokia about Harmattan?11:44
rantomSimple bug: no linebreak in Conversations when using Google Talk-account. (Actually, there's one in Swype-keyboard but that functions as Send, as do the two Send-buttons(!) in "normal" keyboard in Google Talk-conversation)11:46
* ArkanoiD_ would be happy if old ones get fixed11:47
rantomCouldn't find that bug, as of yet11:47
* rantom too11:47
DocScrutinizerwho should fix any of those bugs?11:47
DocScrutinizersomeone has no employment at Nokia11:48
rantomSo I take that as a no11:48
rantomWell, not a big deal anyways, just a tad inconvenient11:49
ArkanoiD_if harmattan was really opensource there would be a hope even without nokia, but no11:49
DocScrutinizeryou might be able to contact nikia care about it11:49
rantomDocScrutinizer: I did11:50
rantom"Where did you get that app"11:50
rantomThe built-in support for Google Talk in Conversations, good job...11:50
DocScrutinizerwell, I know that missing CR issue from my old 621011:51
DocScrutinizerso seems Nokia loves that bug11:51
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rantomI'm sorry but I don't know what that is11:52
DocScrutinizer~wtf cr11:52
infobotGee...  I don't know what cr means...11:52
DocScrutinizer~char 1311:53
DocScrutinizer0x0A, 0x0D11:53
DocScrutinizercolloq >enter>11:53
rantomOh and the best part, "You might want to contact Google for that"/etc :D11:55
rantomYeah, I'll get right on that..11:55
DocScrutinizerwell, probably you should use more precise vocabulary for your complaint, so they get the actual issue11:56
rantomI did11:56
DocScrutinizer~wiki newline11:56
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{other uses|New Line (disambiguation)}} {{Howto|date=July 2011}} created with "gedit" and viewed with a hex editorBesides the text objects there are only EOL markerswith the hexadecimal value 0A.]] In computing, a 'newline'The origin of the older computer term "CRLF" - which redirects to this "Newline" article - or "Carriage Return [and] Line Feed", derives from standard manual ...11:56
DocScrutinizer~wiki carriage return11:57
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Refimprove|date=January 2008}} 'Carriage return', often shortened to 'CR' or 'return', refers to a control character or mechanism used to reset a device's position to the beginning of a line of text. Originally, the term "carriage return" referred to a mechanism or lever on a typewriter. It was used after typing a line of text and caused the assembly holding the paper (the ...11:57
rantomDocScrutinizer: I'll clarify a bit: I contacted them in Finnish, I'm just reposting here in english11:57
rantomSo no issue in that end, might've gotten few wrong words in here, so sorry about that11:57
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DocScrutinizerwell, 1.3 is definitely meant to be last update ever11:59
rantomYeah, thought so too11:59
DocScrutinizerso odds are you have to live with whatever you got now11:59
rantomBut overall my best bet would be to ignore it and I'm fine by that11:59
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DocScrutinizerunless a pissed ex-Nokian leaks the *complete* source of HARM, that's probably it, yeah12:01
rantomNot going to wait for that, heh12:01
DocScrutinizersince Nokia official never will do12:01
rantomNah, not a big deal for me12:01
rantomI'm glad that I've got what I got. I'd be pissed if I'd be forced to use T912:02
rantomSo missing a linebreak-button is not an issue12:02
rantom(for me)12:02
DocScrutinizeryou tried satuff like shift-enter, ctrl-m, etc?12:03
DocScrutinizer(probably no ctrl on that kbd ;-P)12:04
rantomI tried Shift+Enter, didn't work12:04
rantomYeah, no Control, heh :)12:04
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rantom_Might_ work with the N950 since it has it12:04
rantomNot keeping my hopes up though for that12:04
DocScrutinizerthe 6210 had text templates to insert into SMS. I copied a inbound SMS with a CR to templates and edited it so it only had the CR. Then I inserted it into SMS when I really needed it12:06
DocScrutinizerthose were the times12:06
rantomOh yeah, text templates12:07
rantomI liked the quick dial12:07
DocScrutinizerindeed, missing feature12:08
rantomE.g. press a button 3, assign a person, press 3 again (holding, I think) and calling to that person12:08
rantomDocScrutinizer: Thanks for helping12:08
DocScrutinizerthere also been #02 .. #99 for directly calling that storage place12:09
jabiscomplete src of harm - that would be something x)12:09
rantomjabis: :D12:09
jabisI guess the guys working on nemo would appreciate x)12:09
DocScrutinizerI guess those will appreciate the least12:10
phakojabis: ever seen closed source source?12:10
DocScrutinizeras they don't reinvent harm anyway12:10
jabistoo much12:11
jabiswell teh missing pieces are buried there - anyways nemo is all fucked up12:11
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jabisand not in a disrespectful way, just the reality of things currently12:12
rantomGood save12:12
DocScrutinizeryeh, since nemo/mer turned from a cooperative into a antivendor port project, I guess that much12:13
DocScrutinizerat least my take on it, extrapolating Nokia's general FU-policy12:14
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DocScrutinizercan't see much support for mer/nemo the way it's been like 1.5 years ago12:16
DocScrutinizerfrom NOK12:16
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jabisgah - these anti-histamin tablets makes one drowsy12:17
DocScrutinizerduh, which ones?12:18
jabistelfast or whatever these were - new tabs, because zyrtec and histex didn't just cut it this summer12:20
jabisrouter cutting the connection every nth minute - wth is happening again12:23
DocScrutinizerzyrtec losing effect after one season, in my experience12:26
DocScrutinizerthat's why I'm asking for alternatives12:28
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jabisthis telfast works ok, just a lot more drowsy than hte comparison brands12:32
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niwakame30°C inside12:38
niwakameHi everybody :)12:38
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Avengencezrytec never did work well for me, just added side effects. theres a successor to it that is supossed to be better. I tried it not knowing it was related, but its crap. the only one thats any good is claritin. to be fully effective for me, I need the -D variant with pseduphedrine. impossible to get now, fuckers13:43
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niwakamewhat's the best way to access the PageStackWindow out of a child page?14:04
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* Jaffa idly wonders how many ex-Nokians have copies of interesting source code on machines not controlled by Nokia.14:44
azeemless than Nokia has lawyers, I'd say14:48
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kimjuJaffa, leaking such code would not do much good, it couldn't be used for anything and could even be "poisonous"15:03
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Jaffaazeem: Lawyers are only good for going after an individual, or someone hosting it.15:04
JaffaAnyway, only a thought experiment.15:05
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alteregoI have some interesting source :P15:20
alteregoI also have the PR1.3 image for N950, but I'm not releasing it :P15:20
rigoyou shouldn't or do so via some service that anonymizes, unless you want really heavy trouble15:21
niwakamealterego:  Then it's totally nonsense to tell us, except for the reason to boost your ego15:22
rigoI think at some point in time, the community has to split the viral things from the proprietary things and cut out the proprietary things and replace those15:22
rigoand I'm not sure in how far PR 1.3 image is affected by the GPL so that they have to release the source anyway15:23
rigoso there are interesting legal questions in all this. Shooting quick and un-reflected is doing more harm than good15:23
azeemrigo: they have to release the source to the GPL components I guess, same as for PR1.1 and PR1.215:28
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rigoazeem, not only, this has to be analyzed. Especially whether parts that are allegedly proprietary were infected by GPL15:29
azeemrigo: note that if Nokia owns the full copyright to GPL software, they can still dual-license it to themselves for proprietary use15:30
azeemand Qt is LGPL these days, no?15:30
rigoazeem, this is not the issue. The issue is whether they can prevent others from using stuff15:30
azeemthe proprietary stuff?15:30
alteregoniwakame: I was doing it to satisfy Jaffa's curiosity actually.15:30
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SpeedEvilAnd also note that if you have a mixed GPL and other licence binary - a contaminated one - this never, ever gives you a clean licence to use it.15:31
SpeedEvilIt means you have no valid licence.15:31
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mgedminyou don't need a licence to _use_ software; you need one to _distribute_ it15:31
mgedmin(so says the GPL)15:31
rigoSpeedEvil, you can pretty clearly distinguish and figure out. For investments, there are companies making such analysis15:31
SpeedEvilyou have no licence to use it either, as GPL does not apply.15:31
azeemrigo: as long as they don't sell others the (proprietary) license, they prevent it indeed, modulo copyright fraud and lawsuits15:31
niwakamealterego: kk ;)15:33
Avengencepractical example: I have code for several closed things that many people would love to have. I'll give it to any who want it. the only people that take it will never use it, only read it. anyone who actually could use it, doesn't want it near them15:42
Avengencei.e. MS DOS 6 full source, OS/2 v4 kernel and other sources (not full set), and AwrdsBIOS 4.51 full source for more than one board model15:43
Avengencethe DOS code is a fun read just for the notes "this is almost definitely not correct", etc15:45
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Avengencethe only guys I know that are doing any work with the sources are some russians trying to reimplement os/2 on anoter kernel, too pointless for anyone to care and they arent just using a modified vresio of the kernel they have source to15:46
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Avengenceif the harmattan sources leak, I'll try to snatch up a copy as it I may use it as a reference or to make a personal build with few fixes, but not do some public project. I think most people would do the same15:47
Avengenceunfortunately, I expect it to be like most other things, by the time it's leaked it's too old to be that useful. when the NT4 source got out, xp was already current so it's was just kinda "meh, that might be cool for the other platforms, but its not even w2k, what good is it now?"15:49
niwakameI wonder what would happen if you only make the patches to the source available, not the source itself15:51
* vladest knows that russians...actually they are ukrainians15:51
Avengenceif yu make the patches available and not the source, you are not breaking any laws but you are indicating you have something you shouldn't, so it would be best to do so anonymously15:52
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Avengencethe legality of patches is actually clearer than the question of what constitutes a single binary image for gpl purposes15:53
* mgedmin has no time for a licence flame; copyright is about copying -- not use15:53
vladestand still there is no answer - when we will get pr1.3 for n950?15:54
mgedmin(although some evil company lawyers claim that to use software you must copy it from disk to ram)15:54
AvengenceI am on the side that a firmware image installed as a single item is a whole ansd unseprable unit, meaning itf it contains any gpl code then it must be fully gpl or NO GPL AT ALL15:54
alteregoAvengence: then you're being a bit naive, a firmware image is no different to an installation disk.15:54
Avengencei'm very disappointed that there has not been a bigger issue of that in court. both because I would like some code to some shit (i.e. real bcm43 driver) and also I'd lije to see more attention paid to bsd for embedded devices where it's license is better suited anyway15:55
alteregoIn that, your view must extend to ISO images as well.15:55
vladestAvengence: so, if you installed an gpl'ed sw on your pc you have to open source whole apps on your pc?15:55
Avengencevladest: no, on the pc *I* combioned things as an end user. thats a vert claer situation15:55
Avengencethe question is whern yuo distribute, what defines the bunds of the binary image the gpl applies to15:56
alteregoI'm sure windows has GPL code in it.15:56
Avengencein the case of an iso image, thats a container, its like a zip, its not inherently tied. the end result is what matters, you have pieces that can be used separately15:56
vladestwell, turning back to harmattan. the most interested part is UI15:57
alteregoAvengence: just like a flashable filesystem image. They're the same thing.15:57
Avengencewith a firmware image, you have a situation where its not only meant to be used together but often tightly linked such that you cant separate the components. for someting like the N9 tyou have a filesystem, but think of routers with an image thats the kernel with rootfs concated15:57
Avengencefurther, in that rootfs, almost all binaries are static linked into one big blob to save space15:58
alteregoAvengence: no difference, it's still a filesystem image. Even if it's not a conventionally used one.15:58
Avengencethe fact that the pieces are tied in an inseprable manner and are not independently usable is what makes the firmware image the same a single linked excutable in my opinion15:58
alteregoThe point is, people do, and legally, issue licensed material in a composite image which contains both GPL and non-GPL code.15:59
Avengencewe have already decided the static vs dynamic linking boundaries for gpl and lgpl15:59
Avengencethe firmware case is static linking. end of fucking story!15:59
alteregoThis is common, the GPL merely states if you use GPL licensed code in your products, and you make changes, you have to publish those changes.15:59
alteregoNot true.15:59
Avengencejust not properly set in courts16:00
alteregoYou're being naive if you think that archiving code has anything to do with executable linking. Which it clearly doesn't.16:00
Avengencei already stated that!16:00
Avengencei'm talking about LINKED TOGETHER16:01
alteregoThe GPL and LGPL use linking as in executable linking using a linker.16:01
alteregoYou're talking about archiving and bundling together packages.16:01
alteregoThey're not the same thing.16:01
Avengencewhen the pieces actually get linked and then built into an image that is then injected into another binary as a data section, which is copied into ram and used, it is clearly part of the binary that carries it16:01
alteregoAnd don't call me an imbicile.16:01
alteregoAnd all caps is rude too ..16:01
azeemAvengence: are you talking about busybox, or something more elaborate?16:02
Avengenceazeem: busybox is a starting example16:02
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Avengencebusybox is gpl, you cant go stick a non-gpl thing in busybox without breaking the license16:02
azeemright, I'd be surprised if Nokia did that, though16:03
niwakamewasn't there a problem with netgear, regarding busybox?16:03
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azeemthe busybox people are known to hunt gpl-violations after you16:03
Avengencealso, to be clear, right at the moment I am NOT talkinbg about nokia's gpl situation. they use afilesystem and many components16:03
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Avengencei'm talking about devices that use a single image, that in some cases doesnt even pretend to have a filesystem but in other the notion of one is just in memory. in flash, its all one binary blob, inseprable without making it non-functional16:04
Avengencethe linker used during comilation takes various code and data segments and glues them together in a way that allows them to work. separated they cant work. if you go do the same damn think but call the tool something other than a linker, it doesnt change what you just did. that firmware packer or whtever just glued together code and data segments to make something useful16:07
dm8tbrAvengence: regardless of the actual argument, tame your language. thanks.16:08
Avengencealso, any notion that the current situation is legal just because companies are getting away with it is incorrect. as is often the case, it takes a long time for a case to come up in the courts that renders a useful decision, prior to that its speculation and the compoanies have the monetary advantage16:08
Avengencedm8tbr: if you can't take the language, go sit in the kid's corner16:09
fluxwell, I'm pretty sure most computers that use busybox won't boot if you remove it from them..16:09
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alteregotbf, the conversation was interesting, but it hurtled off topic and he was being annoyingly aggressive.16:10
niwakamejust out of nothing :/16:10
dm8tbrI didn't even read the actual discussion16:11
alteregodm8tbr: well, you did good. I'd say just ban him for a couple of hours.16:11
dm8tbrhis language was not OK. I told him. He reacted in a way that made it clear he didn't understand. topic closed. :)16:11
dm8tbrhe seems to think repeating profanities in privmsg will accomplish something. (it will keep him on the +b list, but that's beside the point)16:13
alteregootoh, arguing semantics gets really boring quite quickly. And isn't particularly productive for anyone ..16:13
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alteregodm8tbr: definitely not the way to talk to a guy that just banned you ..16:14
alteregoClearly he doesn't care too much for being allowed back in.16:14
alteregoI'd increase the ban to two days :)16:14
alteregoOr maybe a day for every message he sends you which isn't an apology ;)16:14
dm8tbrit will be 'whenever I remember to check the +b list'16:15
dm8tbrfeel free to hilight/privmsg me when something similar arises.16:15
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dm8tbrnothing to see here! move along! it was just a reflection off of a weather baloon.16:15
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vladestalterego: when you planning to start delivering pr1.3 for n950? ;)16:18
niwakamedm8tbr: ty16:19
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* niwakame just did an unintentional highlight16:20
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alteregovladest: you're better off asking an actual Nokian that is in that area of things.16:25
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alteregoNokia are still giving out N950's and N9s for Qt 5 development. So I'm guessing they must still be planning on doing the release at some point.16:25
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alteregoI think PR1.4 is unlikely now, though it was on the road map when I left the project myself.16:26
vladestalterego: who is actual Nokians here?16:27
alteregoI didn't say here ;)16:27
alteregoMaybe someone should email them and ask about N950 support ;)16:28
vladestuse private  msg :)16:28
alteregoI tell you what, I'll ask on twitter :P16:28
* vladest in despair..dropped my n950 and part of the screen is broken, PoM N9 gift arriving several months yet16:29
alteregoOh no :(16:29
vladestSocial app on e7 rebooted the phone 8-)16:30
vladestI need pr1.3 to test my CarVCR app16:30
vladestcause I have complains that device is overheatng after hours of video recording...hope 1.3 fixed that16:31
dm8tbrvladest: black spot on the screen? went away after 2 months for me at least.16:32
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vladestdm8tbr: spots connecting to lines thru the screen16:33
vladestdm8tbr: you think, its selfcure screen? wow16:33
vladesthope it will gone too16:33
dm8tbrI only so far know of this miracle happening to me.16:34
dm8tbrno other confirmed events16:34
rigoalterego, just look at
Jaffaalterego: Of particular interest would be a build of the Twitter app (for example) which includes fixes put into the source tree after PR1.3 went to Release :-(16:34
Jaffarigo: That FAQ may have been updated for GPLv3, and it doesn't specify what "incorporate" is. It goes on to talk about "separate programs"16:35
alteregorigo: /me agrees with Jaffa16:36
alteregoThey don't explain what "closed system" is16:36
rigoJaffa, this was exactly the dispute. It burns down to what is a self contained program.16:36
rigoand I just want to give you evidence that this question is open. And that there are believes16:37
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alteregoI wonder what Stallman would think about a closed filesystem with GPL components on it in a proprietary installation :)16:37
rigoand that there is a difference between LGPL and GPL16:38
Jaffarigo: And it's clear what Nokia's lawyers believe are their responsibilities with the GPLv2 components used in all versions of Maemo. And any other embedded system using Linux which has closed source components but is upgradable16:38
alteregorigo: of course there is a difference, but the discussion earlier was basically saying regardless of LGPL and GPL, it's illegal to create an image which combines these components with closed components.16:38
JaffaWhereas alterego's argument was that a filesystem image is no different to a zip file, CD or floppy disk.16:39
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JaffaHell, an ISO *is* a filesystem image.16:39
JaffaSo if this was an argument which held water, no GPL-incompatible software could be included in a Linux distro.16:39
rigoWe can't  decide the question here, because we lack information. But in case somebody is closing down and others want to continue, it may be worthwhile to explore certain path16:39
rigoJaffa, they were talking past each other. Only the fact that something is just baked together in a filesystem image is probably not creating sufficient proximity16:40
rigohaving a system tied very close so that the proprietary components are not mere applications may have a different result16:41
rigoalterego was talking about the first, Avengence was talking about the second16:42
JaffaIf only he could give an example of what he was talking about, then, rather than abstract terms (and also seemed to be saying something about taking the firmware image as a data segment and putting that in a proprietary/GPL program (e.g. a flasher or self-extracting zip?))16:43
rigoagain, all this will turn into the center of attention only, if there is  a community that wants to continue16:43
JaffaNot really. There's a pattern for CSSU for Fremantle, with Open Mode or Inception, that can be done for Harmattan. But fewer of the interesting packages are open source on Harmattan (e.g. the buggy apps)16:44
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JaffaIf someone had the source to those and distributed enhancements/collaborated anonymously, they're not going to care about GPL licensing when they don't care about (c)16:45
rigobut this will necessarily remain a marginal geek thing nobody cares about (if sane) Only starting a certain scale, one has to care16:46
rigoJaffa, there is no doubt that you can run proprietary applications on a harmattan system16:47
rigothe question is rather if the system itself can have blind spots16:47
rigoI think it can, but the question is tricky and at the making, the devs had to take good care not to trespass certain lines. As I don't believe in devs taking care of lines, I believe that if searched with due diligence, we can shade some light on some of the blind spots (not all)16:49
rigobut this is a lot of effort and should only be done if nokia abandons completely (I don't see that happening yet) and the only action remains to block the community. In this case, there is a certain legitimacy in starting to look closer into what can be opened up with the tin-opener16:51
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azeemrigo: I would assume that things like the Twitter and Facebook apps cannot be opened by Nokia even if they would like due to NDAs17:00
azeemsame might be the case for Drive17:01
Jaffaazeem: Facebook, maybe, since the account plugin accesses contact info which isn't publicly available via its APIs. Twitter, can't see why. But it costs money to open, and Nokia's default became "closed UI to differentiate"17:04
JaffaUnfortunately, Modest on Fremantle only got good after the patches for bottom-posting and attribution lines got merged in the CSSU.17:04
ZogG_laptoplife is just unfair17:04
ZogG_laptopmost unlogic things are more profitable17:05
JaffaSince that's unlikely to happen for Harmattan, there's no decent email client available17:05
JaffaZogG_laptop: eh?17:05
alteregoI kind of doubt Nokia would actually do something if someone was to drop all of the Harmattan sources.17:06
ZogG_laptopbtw cn't those apps from freemantle be ported to harm btw17:06
alteregoUnless they got screwed by someone claiming IP infringement.17:06
alteregoThen they'd have a serious sandy vag17:06
azeemZogG_laptop: they are GTK17:06
ZogG_laptopJaffa: about opening source cost money thing and so on...17:06
ZogG_laptopazeem: surely you need to re-write gui to make harmattan like17:07
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azeemI guess they could be ported, but would look fugly without lots of themeing and hog resources17:07
azeemZogG_laptop: ok, but that's not porting17:07
azeemwell, splitting hairs now maybe17:07
DocScrutinizer51dang, missed an opportunity for a kickban :-P17:08
Jaffaalterego: My gut agrees, though of course one wouldn't endorse it.17:08
ZogG_laptopazeem: depends if it's only UI app or whole thing17:08
alteregoJaffa: tbh, do you even think Nokia would notice? ;)17:08
rigoso no decent email client in view for N9?17:08
alteregoOr anyone else for that matter :)17:08
ZogG_laptopazeem: some apps have core without UI and UI as a layer, and there are apps where it is more mixed17:08
JaffaHowever, I'd be surprised (if the Harmattan ex-Nokians really used an N9 as their main device) if we didn't see a code drop and some unofficial tweaked binaries/packages/sources within the next year17:09
alteregoUnfortunately, Twitter is one of the few things I don't have the source for.17:09
alteregoWell, one can hope17:09
rigoalterego, there is a nice app for status-net that can be extended to talk to the twitter API17:09
JaffaHowever, if they're all using Android devices, WP[78] or iOS, they've no incentive to try and kickstart an underground movement in improvements.17:09
Jaffaalterego: leinir might17:10
azeemthe twitter app looks miles ahead of though17:10
rigoJaffa, I'm using this exactly because I don't want to use android for various reasons, one being privacy17:10
alteregoJaffa: in my past experience, most ex-Nokians around this community end up pushing Mer, or B2G, etc.17:10
rigoazeem: sure, but I think it is a solid basis. AND the twitter app can't do or Mustard on android did both pretty well17:13
rigoso if twitter goes commercial, there will be a quest for other options17:14
ZogG_laptopalterego: i think frals may have code for twitter =)17:14
ZogG_laptopalterego: but why do you tell you have sources?17:14
Jaffaalterego: Yeah. I like to hack on things I can use day-to-day too. There's a tipping point of usability :-(17:14
ZogG_laptopit just make it more complicated to leak them and make us feel jealous17:14
fralsJaffa: it would be quite easy to trace back code drops way to close to the source of the leak for it to be worth it, I gather...17:15
rigohave to go, cu later17:16
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Jaffafrals: Oh, really? Somehow watermarked? Or just very tightly controlled access?17:16
fralstheres only x person having access now, and if any recent versions leaked.. well ;)17:16
* Jaffa also wonders about those Meltemi source repositories deleted ahead of shutdown announcement. Surely someone had a checkout...17:16
Jaffafrals: g'point17:17
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ZogG_laptopfrals: recent version? i think even 1.1 would be good enuf17:17
fralsanyway, at least the apps related to third parties are probably not closed due to nokia wanting to differentiate but due to contracts with the third parties17:17
ZogG_laptopand everythink like 1.2 and 1.3 can be re-written17:17
alteregoZogG_laptop: why not? And Jaffa asked :P17:17
fralsZogG_laptop: at least for the applications ive been involved in, the changes are huge vs old versions17:18
alteregoI didn't have access to Meltemi unfortunately, I have no idea what went on there :)17:18
ZogG_laptopalterego: why not what? to say? exactly why would make just jelaous ?17:18
alteregoZogG_laptop: well, I don't have Twitter sources ;)17:19
ZogG_laptopalterego: so you are nokia or you got it your ways?17:19
ZogG_laptopalterego: i hope you do the right thing17:19
sigmaorionhi there!!!17:19
alteregoI had a sub-contract which was for Harmattan maintenance until PR1.317:19
sigmaorionanybody here got PR1.3 OTA?17:19
Jaffasigmaorion: Yes.17:19
alteregosigmaorion: my N9 updated yesterday.17:19
JaffaMine updated on Tuesday17:19
ZogG_laptopsigmaorion: most people17:19
sigmaorionJaffa, what was your previous firmware?17:20
alterego1.2? :)17:20
azeemsigmaorion: maybe state your problem?17:20
alteregoI've really missed having external monitor.17:20
sigmaorionyeap, hehe, I mean, what flavor?17:20
sigmaorionbranded, debranded?17:20
sigmaorionfrom what area?17:20
ZogG_laptopalterego: i don't think you would leak it, but keep the copy safe17:20
sigmaorionazeem, no problema, actually, just wainting for my update, but nothing yet...17:21
ZogG_laptopalterego: although you saying it publicly may make you warn to delete it17:21
Jaffasigmaorion: PR1.2 as alterego said17:21
TronicWhat version control system does Nokia use?17:21
Jaffasigmaorion: Oh, global variant I think17:21
azeemsigmaorion: you can flash it yourself if you can't wait17:21
ZogG_laptopsigmaorion: flash it than17:21
TronicIf CVS or SVN, history is lost :/17:21
TronicUnless someone uses git-svn anyway, like I always do on projects still using SVN.17:22
Tronic(git-svn keeps full revision history locally, in a git repository, but speaks SVN to the server)17:22
alteregoTronic: they used git and svn mostly for what I was involved with.17:22
sigmaorionJaffa, azeem, ZogG_laptop, yeap, I think I'm gonna flash, but I flashed with global variant 1.2 last time, so I thought I would get 1.3 right away this time...17:23
alteregoYou have to understand that most of Maemo/MeeGo was developed by open-source enthusiasts inside Nokia. So most of the stuff was basically what you and I would use.17:23
ZogG_laptopsigmaorion: maybe you didn't as i used ota first day and i also flashed last time with 001 global17:24
TronicGetting sources to Maps and Drive would be quite crucial for long term support.17:24
TronicMost other applications could be rewritten from scratch but navigation is too difficult for the community to accomplish.17:24
alteregoI have Maps *cough*17:24
TronicGood :)17:24
ZogG_laptopalterego: we got your point17:25
alteregoBut Maps is Nokia IP I believe, they'd probably be more pissed if people started modding that.17:25
ZogG_laptopalterego: but you would do nothing17:25
sigmaorionZogG_laptop, I'm pretty sure I did!! In fact I did that because I didn't get PR1.2 before, so I flashed my phone...17:25
ZogG_laptopalterego: so what is the point to repeat it all over again =)17:25
azeemZogG_laptop: alterego just volunteered to do Maps long term support17:25
Tronicalterego: Doesn't that apply to every other piece of the software, too?17:26
alteregoZogG_laptop: just to make you sandy? :P17:26
ZogG_laptopi think google maps is better =P17:26
azeemTronic: IP in the sense that they use it elsewhere as well17:26
sigmaorionanyway... are there any release notes for PR1.3 with a list of the goodies!? I couldn't find it!17:26
azeemI guess17:26
azeemthere are no goodies, just bug fixes17:27
ZogG_laptopazeem: you lost his point saying he would do nothing about that. he is just pissing off us for lols =\17:27
sigmaorionazeem, thanks a lot!17:27
JaffaTronic: Email too. Good mobile email clients are hard; and there's a lot of effort to get to a level which is decent until you can start fixing things like quoting styles, attribution etc.17:27
ZogG_laptopsigmaorion: few changes most bugfixes, no realchange log as even team members do not know if their patches included ( saw on TMO ex dev post)17:27
ZogG_laptopJaffa: i would say the most important is browser17:28
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ZogG_laptopand bug fixes, baterry life17:28
alteregoZogG_laptop: you're right, I probably wont do anything with them, except maybe use them to help others understand how they work internally.17:28
JaffaZogG_laptop: Browsers are big & hard, but there are already alternatives (e.g. Firefox)17:29
ZogG_laptopas there is another email app ported btw17:29
* SpeedEvil is surprised!17:29
alteregoIt's up to anyone else to take the initiative.17:29
* SpeedEvil sees flash in the app-store.17:29
SpeedEvil(on n950)17:29
ZogG_laptopbut browser is hard thing to do or write from scratch imho17:29
ZogG_laptopSpeedEvil: it's there for a long time17:29
alteregoZogG_laptop: not in QML I don't think, and not the N9 browser, that thing could probably be implemented in QML in a day ;)17:29
SpeedEvilZogG: :)17:29
ZogG_laptopalterego: if you have source you would know most things are MTF, or i am wrong?17:30
ZogG_laptopSpeedEvil: it doesn work on native browser btw17:30
ZogG_laptopSpeedEvil: only firefox17:30
JaffaZogG_laptop: A decent finger friendly email app? Ooh, where?17:30
JaffaZogG_laptop: Browser is *relatively* easy if wrapping up QtWebKit (although there's odd behaviour of select lists using QtWebKit compared with Browser)17:31
ZogG_laptopJaffa: not really finger friendly but as i saw people working on gui with qml or MohammadAG with MTF it's matter of effort and little time to make it17:31
ZogG_laptopthat is email app17:32
alteregoZogG_laptop: without counting, I can't tell you, you're probably right, but a lot of things are in QML, anyway, I'm just saying implementing a browser with the same feature set as the N9 browser in QML wouldn't be hard at all and wouldn't take very long.17:32
ZogG_laptopi think someone from here took it from the point last dev stoped it17:32
alteregoJust embed QtWebKit and make a menu and location bar and you're set.17:33
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alteregoI seriously think the N9 browser is the least interesting part of Harmattan.17:33
alteregoYet I probably use it the most ..17:33
alteregoI mean interesting from a technical perspective.17:34
ZogG_laptopalterego: tabs, flash, plugins, addons are really hard thing imho, otherwise IE6 would be enuf =)17:34
alteregoZogG_laptop: all things that the inbuilt browser doesn't have ;) But with an open alternative, we could build on, those things at least could be implemented over time.17:34
JaffaZogG_laptop: It's rZr who seems to be carrying Trojita on
fralsalterego: guess you havent seen all the cases grob handle... ;)17:35
ZogG_laptopbut all i need is tabs and sync and logical UI17:35
MohammadAGGrob is QML17:35
MohammadAG(N9 stock browser's called grob)17:35
alteregoI don't know how webkit off hand uses plugins, but we have a flash plugin for the N9, so why couldn't we get that to work with QtWebkit?17:35
alteregoMohammadAG: I suspected as much.17:35
ZogG_laptopJaffa: i think it's someone else, lemme check it was on tmo or fmc17:35
MohammadAGalterego: How? :p17:35
MohammadAG(I just stringed the binary once, has a lot of QML code)17:36
alteregoMohammadAG: if you read the beginning of that sentence you'd see I don't know ;)17:36
alteregoI remember reading a bit in the webkit APIs about plugins, if we wrote our own QML browser I'm sure it could be done.17:36
trxlol "grob" means grave on serbian17:36
kevin_bBecause grob use QtWebKit2 which cannot use NPAPI plugin?17:36
trxnot a good name :)17:36
alteregokevin_b: Well, not aware of that soo .. ;)17:36
ZogG_laptoptrx: in russian too17:36
MohammadAGWhat does fenix mean?17:36
kevin_bso we need a new flash plugin for any WebKit2 app17:36
JaffaMohammadAG: Name of the mail app, IIRC17:37
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: bird?17:37
JaffaOh, I see17:37
trxyeahm bird :)17:37
MohammadAGThat's pheonix :p17:37
MohammadAGJaffa :p17:37
alteregokevin_b: what about implementing a NPAPI plugin adapter for Webkit 2?17:37
MohammadAGPhoenix even*17:37
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: it was suggested here to rename to Ash17:37
MohammadAGOr just drop flash17:37
trxbut thats "Feniks"17:37
MohammadAGAsh is the default shell :P17:38
alteregoMohammadAG: I'm not bothered about flash, but this is an example of a technical issue which I think wouldn't be too hard to resolve in a CSSU17:38
ZogG_laptoptrx: or Феникс =)17:38
trxyeah :)17:38
MohammadAGalterego: A cssu is possible on harmattan17:38
alteregoAnd the browser lacks a lot of things.17:38
alteregoFlash is just one of these things.17:38
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: alterego has source of PR1.3 =P17:38
alteregoMohammadAG: indeed, with open-mode sure.17:39
MohammadAGJust like inception adds a domain we'd a org.maemo.cssu domain17:39
alteregoI think I'd be more interested in getting harmattan running on Mer17:39
MohammadAGalterego: No, normal argis system17:39
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: but most parts are closed, way more than maemo5 imho17:39
alteregoMohammadAG: oh sure yeah. Forgot about inception17:39
MohammadAGWe just need a higher domain officially added by Nokia17:39
MohammadAGalterego: I'm using it as an example17:40
MohammadAGWe shouldn't use inception for a cssu17:40
JaffaMohammadAG: Or the system *thinks* had been officially added by Nokia; cos no Nokian's going to be left to add it17:40
alteregoMohammadAG: it's okay, I understand your example ;)17:40
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: aegis free17:40
MohammadAGOr hacks, we need an official support package from Nokia17:40
alteregoI actually managed to get Nokia Maps semi working under Nemo,17:40
alteregoThat was fun17:41
ZogG_laptopalterego: now you can really improve Nemo =P17:41
ArkanoiD_abbra told me some people managed to get frankenstein update for n950 with n9 pr1.3, is there a reliable instruction for that?17:41
alteregoZogG_laptop: unfortunately I have my own roadmap ;) So I'm only really interested in Harmattan and Nemo as a informative resource ;)17:42
alteregoIt's unlikely I'll be doing anything practically for Harmattan or Nemo except as a side-effect of my current projects.17:42
ZogG_laptopalterego: ok. personal or work projects?17:42
alteregoZogG_laptop: both17:43
ZogG_laptopalterego: than leak it =P17:43
azeemor somebody leak alterego's private adress ;)17:43
alteregoNothing to leak really, I'm working with some people on developing an activity based computing platform on top of Mer.17:43
alteregoFor handset and tablet usage mainly at the moment.17:43
alteregoHow did you know my private address is my password for everything?!?17:44
ZogG_laptopalterego: i'm talking about harmattan source17:44
alteregoOh, well, no :P17:44
alteregoI'd rather people made good open alternatives like MohammadAG has done in the past to better other projects like Nemo. Than hack fixes together for closed proprietary bits in Harmattan.17:45
arceanArkanoiD_: not yet, but possible17:45
arceanand quiet simple TBH :)17:45
* MohammadAG needs to understand the d private pointer and ClassNamePrivate concepts17:46
alteregoThe resources as far as Harmattan are concerned that I have, will only be used as a reference tool for when documentation isn't good enough for possible hacks and work-arounds.17:46
alteregoMohammadAG: opaque instances of data for a class that are only available to the source files, so when you distribute your headers you don't give away internal APIs.17:47
ZogG_laptopalterego: than start with example how to use sigon-oauth2 plugin for accounts and integrate with app =)17:47
ZogG_laptopno normal examples or documentation17:47
alteregoNot sure I have that either ;)17:48
alteregoI'd have to look.17:48
alteregoAnd it's on a different machine than the one I'm infront of now ;)17:48
ZogG_laptopit is part of twitter and i think facebook17:48
alteregoYes, twitter, facebook, maps, ...17:48
MohammadAGZogG_laptop: You shouldn't use that17:48
ZogG_laptopalterego: it would be helpful17:48
alteregoQuite a few apps iirc17:48
MohammadAGAfaik it isn't meant to be used17:49
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: why not?17:49
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MohammadAGIn fact afaik usage should be denied by aegis17:49
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: what do you mean it is used in twitter17:49
MohammadAGTwitter is Nokia's17:49
MohammadAGIt isn't meant to be used by 3rd parties17:49
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: i need to make my own account not the twitter's one, i just need example on how17:49
MohammadAGOh, don't lots of apps do that?17:50
MohammadAGWazapp, web2sms etc17:50
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: no, as they use plain pass and user17:50
ZogG_laptopthat you can get from account17:50
ZogG_laptopi do that too17:50
ZogG_laptopbut token is not saved there17:50
azeemthe app doesn't hook into accounts e.g.17:51
ZogG_laptopyou need to integrate request in plugin and use it from in app thru signon thing17:51
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: people or use plain password in accounts or they use qoauth17:51
ZogG_laptopqoauth is nice but it's easier to use something native which is already on phone and not bring new duplicate libs17:52
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MohammadAGI don't get how creating an account would help with not using OAuth17:52
ZogG_laptopMohammadAG: i'd use signon for that than extrenal lib17:54
ZogG_laptopwith sigon i can make account in accounts with setting their and it's native way17:54
ZogG_laptopyou can add webupload plugin wih actually has example with half code for dropbox17:55
ZogG_laptopwich is after all afaik use account plugin17:55
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ZogG_laptopbeford released his account for scrobbler btw17:56
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petteriazeem: thanks for the link19:20
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itsnotabigtruckthere's been 135 qr code downloads of inception 0.219:49
itsnotabigtruckthat doesn't count direct downloads from the site19:49
itsnotabigtruckbut i don't feel like getting on my server and tabulating that19:49
itsnotabigtruck the us, germany, and finland seem to make up a remarkable chunk of the downloads19:50
itsnotabigtruckweird that there's more us downloads than any other one location19:51
itsnotabigtruckgiven the lack of distribution here19:51
itsnotabigtruckthough some of those clicks might be me :p19:51
macmaNitsnotabigtruck: ok. whats the conclusion?19:55
macmaNnice use of qr-code i discovered lately was at a conference when the presenter told us to scan his contact card off the big screen19:56
macmaNtoday also my girl used one to get a navigation location directly into n919:56
macmaNbut qr codes for me have been very rare..19:56
macmaNmaybe i dont hang around smart people enough19:57
ZogG_laptopthey are on every ad today19:57
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ZogG_laptopnoone just pay attention as those are not really useful to open facebook fan pages of some deodorant to make "like"19:57
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niwakame|afk"I've just liked <insert deodorant brand name here>, because it really makes the stench go away!"20:35
itsnotabigtruckmacmaN: well, they're good for getting a url from a pc to a phone20:37
itsnotabigtruckwhich is exactly what i'm using them for20:37
itsnotabigtruckbut yeah, the advert stuff is totally useless20:38
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niwakame|afkI need more ventilators here20:48
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tehdelydang... no ROW EMMC files available yet21:39
tehdelyguess i'll have to flash with the northern europe one21:39
tehdelywoo hoo swedish maps :>21:39
niwakame|afkhaha, this is nice:
niwakame|afkbut I like this one more:
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tehdelyafter reflashing with pr1.3 and enabling developer mode22:33
tehdelyi can't seem to ssh into the device22:33
tehdelyit's prompting for a password, even though i put my ssh key in there22:33
tehdelythat's... annoying22:33
jonniand you are trying to login as developer and not root22:35
tehdelyoh never mind22:35
tehdelyhad to passwd -u user22:35
tehdelyi am a sysadmin, i should have known that ;)22:36
tehdelyinterestingly, developer user has no home dir22:36
tehdelyi remember this problem on pr1.2 as well22:36
jonniit was a feature22:36
tehdelydid they ever fix the issues with the developer apt repository22:38
jonnithere has never been any issues :)22:38
tehdelyi seem to remember something to do with the signature of the repository22:38
tehdelyand that is why i could never leave it enabled as an apt source22:38
jonniyou mean the sdk repository which was never meant to be used in N9.22:39
tehdelyyes, that one22:39
jonnias it was sdk only. so nothing to be fixed.22:39
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jonniand developers home dir is /home/developer, so it deas have a home dir.22:41
tehdelythat directory does not exist on my phone22:41
tehdelyi agree that that is developer's home dir22:41
tehdelywhat use is the 'developer' user anyway22:41
tehdelywhat is it for22:41
jonnithen your flash or upgrade has failed somehow, or you havent runned the sdk connectivity tool22:42
tehdelythe latter22:42
jonniits just an alias to user-user, as it has the same uid.22:42
tehdelythank you, you are answering my questions almost as quickly as i'm cooking em up22:43
jonniis you login as developer you end up in develsh and if you login with user you end up in /bin/sh, so developer user has more capas by default.22:43
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sigmaorionJaffa, I was asking earlier for the OTA update that wasn't coming to my phone... I just got the update notification :)23:25
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vladesthmm. still license wars23:35
ZogG_laptopJaffa: ping23:36
Kozzirzr: ping23:44
rzrpong ! game over , please insert coin23:45
Kozzirzr: you ported rtmpdump to harmattan right ?23:45
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rzri just rebuilt it afaik23:46
Kozziwonder if this version supports rtmpe23:46
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rzre like encryption ?23:50
Kozzito overrides protocols23:50
Kozzirtmpt, rtmp, rtmpe.. etc23:50
Kozzianyone here expert in sniffing rtmp urls ?23:56

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