IRC log of #harmattan for Wednesday, 2012-07-04

itsnotabigtruck2smart cards are a cool piece of technology, why did the software side of things have to end up becoming such a PoS00:00
itsnotabigtruck2also they generally don't have a standardized card edge at all, which is also totally ridiculous00:00
Avengencebecause the fucking french cant even decide if 1 is logical high or low, so which is 1 and which is 0 is up in the air00:01
itsnotabigtruck2imagine if any crypto smart card was interchangeable and operating systems/applications had awesome smart card support00:01
Avengenceyou gotta just figure that out first to even start the rest of the interaction with the card00:01
itsnotabigtruck2everybody would have super-tough two factor authentication for all their stuff00:01
itsnotabigtruck2bank accounts, computer accounts, etc.00:01
rzr<Avengence> oh damn am I glad to say I'm not a part of that for quite a long time now. smartcards are a pita becausae of FRENCH. and everything elsse around them ends up being broken/crappy00:01
Avengencetheres always more than one way to do anything, and a reader has to support them ALL or you have a crappy reader that only works with some cards00:01
rzryou can punch me I am one of them00:02
Avengencefinally get past funky baud rates, weird voltages, wahts a 1 and 0, how you do error correction, are you using transaction or packets and how long, wahts your mode, dont tell me you want T=1 instead of T=0 now...00:03
jabisit would be cool to see what the updater does below the "updating n%" -.-00:03
jabis21.30 - 24.00 still on 90%00:04
Avengenceafter all that, then you have to speak to the thing then the command set is totally different on every card00:04
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: i thought that stuff is mostly settled though, the card<->reader side of things isn't nearly as bad as the os/app<->card side00:04
Avengenceto make it worse, almost all cards now are "javacards" (fucking java GO AWAY)00:04
itsnotabigtruck2the only standardized card edges are for government applications on cards that aren't available for public purchase00:04
itsnotabigtruck2(PIV, IAS, etc.)00:05
Avengenceso you have  some dozens of card models with various features and then a custom java applet is loaded that gives a personality, basically defines the command set. that applet can be custom or you can pick one the card vendor examples00:05
Avengencetheres thousand of them adn they all use different commands. and they all have different bugs. and the dont always run the same on different revision of the cards00:06
* SpeedEvil sighs.00:06
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck2: CAC/PIV was my world for a couple years00:06
itsnotabigtruck2also smart card support on linux makes the windows side look awesome00:06
SpeedEvilI was just wondering about NFC support on the nexus 7, and its exposure00:07
itsnotabigtruck2most commercial cards have inferior/no official linux drivers (pkcs#11 etc.), and these days the opensc project (generic open source pkcs#11) is only interested in supporting government cards00:07
Lava_Croftim just happy i dont have to use my nexus7 as a real mobile device00:07
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, seems it's done00:07
itsnotabigtruck2and in any case, no standardized card edge = writing a comprehensive smart card driver is an impossible task00:07
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: yay00:08
Avengenceanother real bad part of smartcards is just dealing with the companies that make them. theres only 3 and they are all awful. I wont name a name for the one I dealt with most00:08
itsnotabigtruck2should be a simple task of flashing the main image then00:08
itsnotabigtruck2aren't there a lot more?00:08
* SpeedEvil has been idly wondering about a teeny RFID capsule inserted under the skin.00:08
SpeedEvilI seem to spend 4 mins a day searching for keys00:09
Avengencethe deal was the engineers are in frane and only speak french. therefore, you cannot communicate with them. as a customer, you get a rep who handles that. some cinese guy that lives in france and translates everything to/from english00:09
itsnotabigtruck2gemalto (gemplus, axalto), giesecke/devrient, safenet (aladdin, rainbow), spyrus, athena scs00:09
itsnotabigtruck2those are a few that come to mind00:09
Avengencewrite to the chinese guy in english, he translatse to french, french guys read it and do something in a few days. response is translated and comes back. try to make anything happen quick or figure out a detailed problem this way00:09
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, hmm, had wierd time and region and other stuff screen first in... HEBREW =)00:10
itsnotabigtruck2only the first one is french00:10
Sniper_swerainsto ever hangout here?00:10
SpeedEvilAvengence: It'd be faster to learn french :)00:10
rzryou have no alternative learn chinese or french ?00:10
itsnotabigtruck2Sniper_swe: yup, he goes under 'jonni'00:10
Avengenceit took months to find out that cards were dying at random because we were trigger a security countermeasure as part of an undocumented side effect of a function we used00:10
Sazpaimonlet me strace -f msyncd00:10
Sazpaimonsee what im getting00:10
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, all my apps are gone =(00:10
itsnotabigtruck2but anyway, it sounds like Avengence - you were involved in some kind of large scale deployment00:10
Sazpaimonlooks like its chugging along doing something00:10
itsnotabigtruck2which has gotta be frustrating but it's also what all the companies are oriented toward00:10
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, and i have a lot installed from debs =\00:11
itsnotabigtruck2no one seems to care about small scale setups of a few cards, using off-the-shelf software that works with any os00:11
Sniper_swethx again:)00:11
itsnotabigtruck2as i see smart cards as portable crypto devices, and not id cards00:11
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, and it still shows the update avilable =)00:11
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: are you sure you flashed the 40.x image?00:11
itsnotabigtruck2what's the filename00:11
rzrbtw i am curious most french programmer are using english in their code or specs ... not a perfect one ... but only lamers will call their function by french name00:11
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, it disappeared =)00:11
itsnotabigtruck2rzr: because english is the global language of programming00:11
Avengenceif you ask the card for a random number (you know, use it as a good random number generator) and then DONT immeately do an authentication wit hte card (the random was meant to be a nonce) then it incremens some counter (in case you are looking for pattern in the randoms?) and sooner or later when counter crosses random threshold the card commits suicide00:12
rzryes i confirm00:12
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, real golf is the update00:12
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: lame00:12
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: oh, ok00:12
itsnotabigtruck2as long as it doesn't come up with a system update you're fine00:12
Lava_Croftrealgolf has been an update after pr1.2 since forever00:12
rzrbut i have to fight w/ some of my workmates who mix sense of english words ... this can be a fun game :)00:12
Lava_Croftwell, since i own a N900:12
Lava_Croftjust remove realgolf00:13
itsnotabigtruck2yeah, realgolf is pretty lame anyway00:13
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: just check the about screen to see if you're up to date00:13
Avengenceall sorts of other fun stuff you will never find out until it's too late, like the power draw is insane. in an effort to defeat differential power analysis, theres dummy load resistors in the card burning off over 100x the current the micro uses. you can only turn them off by fully powering down the card. you sometimes really need to keep the card alive, and that means huge power draw for mobile d00:14
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: btw, did you hear about the application of the bliechenbacher [sp?] attack to smart cards for key extraction00:14
itsnotabigtruck2the idea is that many cards allow wrapped key import using rsaes-pkcsv1_500:15
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, 1.3 40.2012.21-3PR_00100:15
itsnotabigtruck2the success/failure of the import leaks information about the key used to decrypt00:15
Avengencetheres always a way00:16
itsnotabigtruck2so you encrypt something with the public key you're at, and try to import it as a wrapped key00:16
itsnotabigtruck2and you blast the card with a few thousand of those strategically00:16
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itsnotabigtruck2this leaks the key.00:16
jabisgetting a bit pissed off  - still 90%00:16
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itsnotabigtruck2i think you probably still need to be authenticated to the card00:16
itsnotabigtruck2jabis: what if you power it off and flash it00:16
jabisyaa - seems I have to do it...00:17
jabisjust I hoped this time I wouldn't have to x)00:17
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: ok, good00:17
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck2: waht i worked on was not large volume but was large importance deployment00:18
jabisgiven it three hours and still nada00:18
Avengencemuch of my bitching comes not just from the CAC, but the other card we tried to use as an HSM in SIM format00:18
jabisseems I'll be updating via apt-get the next time, so I see where it borks00:18
jabis2 phones and this one always fucks up00:19
itsnotabigtruck2probably won't be a next time00:19
ZogG_laptopKozzi, thanks for comment on app btw00:19
jabisuh oh - true that00:19
itsnotabigtruck2who's to work on pr1.4 if nokia is dumping all its staff *now*00:19
itsnotabigtruck2besides i don't think there was ever any reason to believe there was a pr1.4 in the cards at any point00:20
Avengenceimagine dual smartcard reader, slot 1 is external card slort, slot 2 is inernal sim slot. slot 2 is prepoultaed with an HSM. the HSM does strong crypto for the wireless link to make the card in slot1 available to the host device. the link is bluetooth. the card will be cac. the device belong to someone in us goovt or armed forces00:20
KozziZogG_laptop: thank to use, it's really helpful with posting screenshots :)00:20
itsnotabigtruck2it was always 1.2, then 1.3, then that's it, show's over00:20
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itsnotabigtruck2ooh, that sounds like a damned cool piece of hardware00:20
ZogG_laptopKozzi, as far as i fix my personal pshyco state i would improve it00:21
Avengenceas if the battery situation with two cards and a bluetooth transceiver isnt bad enough, it had a usb port. it had to be paired with the host device over a hardwire00:21
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, pr1.3.1 lol00:21
itsnotabigtruck2also this means that the time to start working on the n9 cssu is right about now00:22
Avengencenow, the host deivice is a mobile device that with actually a usb device, not a usb host. therefore this box had to be usb host. a usb device is allowed to charge from a host. some devices will stop talking if you dont let them draw charge current. winmobile phones do this, and they exceed 500ma draw00:22
rzrbtw i would have wait a couple of days to make sure the release is fully tested before releasign inception00:22
KozziI always though nitdroid as a good backup plan when all nokia's service go offline, too bad it's also gone now00:22
ZogG_laptopif i restore data and update might changed format of few things - it can fsck up things  =\00:23
itsnotabigtruck2rzr: i did wait...quite a bit more than a few days00:23
arceanZogG_laptop, yeah :D the show must go on
Avengenceso now a 3.6v litium cell is driving a 1A 5V chargepump voltagebooster just to blast the phone to keep it talking during the link up until you can go wireless00:23
itsnotabigtruck2kozzi: what do you mean "gone now"?00:23
itsnotabigtruck2did e-yes give up on nitdroid?00:23
KozziI heard e-eyes gave up00:24
DocScrutinizerKozzi: I guess you can find better cheaper genuine android devices00:24
Kozziwell mentioned somewhere00:24
itsnotabigtruck2it's a shame how there's so many people badmouthing nitdroid (mostly the same people angry at me for inception :/)00:24
Avengenceas a bonus, in emergency you could use it as backup battery for a phone call. downside, when its dead yo cant login to your phone with your smartcard (and its the only way in with the security software i wrote)00:24
rzrnot sure00:24
KozziDocScrutinizer: the problem is I really like maemo00:24
rzrhe commited lately00:24
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, are you planing on taking part in CSSU for harmattan?00:25
rzri think he is near to release a version w/ voicecalls00:25
Kozzifirst maemo phone eventhough I have been following since 77000:25
DocScrutinizerKozzi: that's not helping for nitdroid00:25
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: well, i don't want to be responsible for everything00:25
itsnotabigtruck2a cssu-type project is a pretty large undertaking00:25
itsnotabigtruck2and i definitely don't feel like taking that on alone00:25
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, it's about someone to start it00:25
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, i would like to take part of it, but my knowledge and level of helpness is more like bug reporting and testing =\00:26
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Avengenceitsnotabigtruck2: it was cool hardware, but it was a pain. NSA had to audit our wireless protocol. they had to audit the driver. I had to lockdown the bluetooth stack so it could never be used for anything OTHER than our device without interfering with anything else, aside from anything else (no IR comms, no execute from sd, etc)00:26
itsnotabigtruck2i'd definitely be up to building an inception-based setup tool to get cssu loaded00:26
KozziDocScrutinizer: helping what?00:26
Sniper_swei'm testing latest build of nitdroid and its great!00:26
rzrSniper_swe, no voicecall on that one right ?00:27
DocScrutinizer<Kozzi> I always though nitdroid as a good backup plan when all nokia's service go offline, too bad it's also gone now00:27
itsnotabigtruck2i really like the harmattan *hardware*. more choices of OS can only be a good thing, especially when harmattan is a dead end and android isn't00:27
Sniper_sweNo but skype calls working00:27
rzrKozzi, nidroid : skype voice calls are functional now. #nitdroid #n900:27
itsnotabigtruck2aww, lame00:27
rzr 2 jull00:28
itsnotabigtruck2but yeah, i won't use nitdroid until it has full-fledged phone capabilities00:28
itsnotabigtruck2but i hope it keeps enough momentum to get to that point00:28
rzri tested it just to test Qt nescessitas00:28
Sniper_swefeels closer now:)00:28
Avengencethe whole bluetooth connected smartcard reader was a hack to add security to devices that lacked it. it required owning the device to pull of the security and that meant each model had to be specifically supported, so in the end certains models were approved for use in armed forces and are in field use00:29
KozziDocScrutinizer: with all those talks about Nokia slowly getting rid of maemo, I'm afraid the store will be gone soon00:29
itsnotabigtruck2also sounds kinda scary that wince was used for some sort of sekrit device00:29
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, dual boot can be nice though if you want game or specific ap00:29
Kozzithat's what I really meant00:30
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck2: given the fact been binned quite some time ago, I hardly see cmt interface on N9 reaching any more mature state than it (didn't) reach on N90000:30
itsnotabigtruck2except that the store brings in money00:30
rzrKozzi, check update time @
itsnotabigtruck2and the cost of setting up the store is already sunk00:30
Avengencethe real big thing that led to for the company was the dwal to put the readers in teh special phones that do classified voice and data, so the POTUS carries around the shitty email client I helped jam into a dual cpu, dual OS wince phone00:30
itsnotabigtruck2why would nokia shut down the store00:30
rzrso nitdroid is in good health00:30
itsnotabigtruck2if they make more money with it up than down00:30
Kozzirzr: thanks for the info.. it's great to see it00:31
Sniper_sweyeah it is.00:31
rzreyes was fed up a few TMO pple , now the problem is fixed00:31
jabisoh look - a bootloop00:31
rzrfed up with ...00:31
Sniper_swefixed or moved on?00:31
AvengenceI didnt do the phone, that was done by big govt cotnractors. i just wrote the smartcard drives for the custom phones, intergrated or email client, provided the encrypted fs for the unclassified side, provided a simple tunnel program to shit classified data through the network on the unclass side00:31
rzri wont argue more on that topic00:32
Sniper_swefrom tmo00:32
Avengencethe people with clearance did evertuthing clasdified, which is all the crypto on that side for filesystem, network, etc so all the data the classified side (no net access) funnels through the unclass side is "harmless to leak"00:32
itsnotabigtruck2ah, so this is for that general dynamics winmo phone00:32
Sniper_swegreat to see his commiting to nitdroid . he is great!00:33
Avengencethat phone has two ARM cores running 2 copies on winCE with two ram banks and two flash banks. one classified, one unclassified. the keypad and screen exist on the other side of an integrated kvm.00:33
ZogG_laptopsome applications are installed from Store and they need to be restored via store00:33
ZogG_laptophow do i restore all apps in once =\00:34
DocScrutinizerwow, excellent insane touch00:34
ZogG_laptopremind me eanyone can i restore all apps from backup in one install?00:35
ZogG_laptopor i need to do it per app00:35
Avengencethe kvm waas just one function of a huge security system. the security system runs two processors in lockstep, constant crosschecking each other, with some secret embedded OS (customised Integrity afaik). all I/o passes through that security blob00:35
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: per app00:36
itsnotabigtruck2but decide which ones you want to keep00:37
itsnotabigtruck2which is probably not all00:37
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, but is so stupid, why didn't they add the button - restore all - i thought they added it in pr1.200:37
itsnotabigtruck2also one would think they'd use linux and the nsa's very own selinux for a secure device00:37
ZogG_laptopbut if not at least as 1.300:37
itsnotabigtruck2"high assurance" isn't something that comes to mind when i think about windows ce00:37
AvengenceL3 made a phone to same specs but totally different hardware. I dont know as much about their design. iirc, they had one cpu and two memory banks. they froze on wince instance and unforze the other on the same one cpu. still several more processsors for security, but not nearly the separate GD implemented. L3's was smaller, lower power, but way late00:37
AvengenceI dont know why it wasn't linux but I know why it was win CE and not Windows Mobile00:38
Sazpaimon[16:17] <Kozzi>
Avengencethis is absurdly funny...00:38
Sazpaimon"via Twitter for iPhone"00:38
Sazpaimon[17:31] <rzr> eyes was fed up a few TMO pple , now the problem is fixed00:40
Kozzielop hates n9 so much that even the team working on it can't use one00:40
Sazpaimonwhat, TMO isnt dumb anymore?00:40
Sazpaimonbecause thats the only way the problem would be fixed00:40
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AvengenceWindows Mobile is a 1mil minimum license volume product. the govt contractors called microsfoft and were told they could have CE, no WinMob for volume asked about (10k-20k units). something lie 2 years into the project, microsoft finds out what is going on and is embarrasedm, winCE is shit for that type of device, the gui is horrendous (not that winmob is great but it is much better than wince)00:40
jabisreflashing - man I hate this process x)00:41
AvengenceMicrosoft offered to give WinMob to the govt contractors with support. govt said NO, this is behind schedule already, that will make it take longer, stay the course. end result... I think theres some screenshots on the unclass side00:41
DocScrutinizer51what been this madness meant for? some president controlling his nukes?00:42
itsnotabigtruck2DocScrutinizer51: yeah, obama himself has one00:42
itsnotabigtruck2you wouldn't control the nukes with it but you might call someone up and tell them to control the nukes00:42
itsnotabigtruck2there was a significant amount of press about this thing right when obama got elected00:43
Sazpaimonoh, by the way00:43
Sazpaimonnokia suitue is still busy00:43
Sazpaimonthought I'd let you all know00:43
jabisOH NOES - selected the wrong language00:43
Avengenceyes, on the classified side, obama could have a phonecall about nukes, and then he could push the blakck button and write a email to michelle before hitting red bitton and writing the order to go kill bin laden00:44
Sazpaimonwhy's the button gotta be black00:44
SpeedEvilBut no angry birds - ICBM edition.00:44
itsnotabigtruck2Sazpaimon: red = sekrit stuff, black = not-so-sekrit00:44
Avengencenot just the button, the wallpaper00:44
itsnotabigtruck2the idea is that RED things need to be protected00:45
Avengencewhen you hit the red button the whole background is red so you cant forget00:45
itsnotabigtruck2BLACK things don't need protection00:45
AvengenceRED/BLACK is partof the standards00:45
SpeedEvilitsnotabigtruck: That's got a major market in the civilian side.00:45
Avengenceif you work with classified material, you know these things00:45
SpeedEvilKeep girlfriends seperate.00:45
Avengenceanyway, you gutys maybe see why I am disgusted with standard phone security and know I can do something much better without going insane00:46
itsnotabigtruck2it's too bad there aren't any really security oriented phones for non-gov markets00:46
itsnotabigtruck2these gd/l3 phones sound like they pretty much suck, but it's a good concept00:46
Avengencethere have been some. swiss compan ymade a gsm phone with hardware voice crypto00:46
itsnotabigtruck2one major problem is that nearly all commercial encrypted mobiles rely on circuit switched data (csd)00:47
itsnotabigtruck2that's modem over gsm00:47
DocScrutinizer51Avengence: just one minor detail: aegis never been emant to help with security of *user*00:47
AvengenceDocScrutinizer51: I KNOW00:47
itsnotabigtruck2circuit switched data is obsolete technology that isn't available on many carriers anymore00:47
itsnotabigtruck2and those that do offer it don't make it easy to get, precisely because it's used for crypto phones00:47
TronicWhy won't they do VoIP crypto and just use 3G?00:48
itsnotabigtruck2what you need is something that has really tight voip integration and supports zrtp, dtls-srtp, scip...something00:48
Avengencethe crypto used for classified voice by us govt travesses as analog signals00:48
DocScrutinizer51itsnotabigtruck2: then use fax service insteadof data service00:48
itsnotabigtruck2the n9 has the voip integration part, just not the security part, at all00:48
itsnotabigtruck2DocScrutinizer51: hmm? said "fax service" *is* csd, i think00:49
Avengenceyou can plug a viper into a walljack and call it from a sme ped00:49
itsnotabigtruck2you can't send faxes from a gsm phone these days, either00:49
DocScrutinizer51not exactly00:49
itsnotabigtruck2not that anyone cares about that00:49
Avengenceviper being GDs classified hardwire phones. i dont know other brand names00:49
DocScrutinizer51there's voice, data, fax CSD00:49
itsnotabigtruck2also it would be cool to see an open source implementation of SCIP (that's the us government's crypto voice solution)00:50
itsnotabigtruck2with the not-so-sekrit crypto algorithms of course00:50
itsnotabigtruck2(which are still more than secure enough)00:50
Avengencei dont know for sure, but I have a feeling the encoding is tuned to deal with the compression used on phone networks. i know some time ago some guys designed a modem encoding that was tolrant to gsm compression to allow dialup modem over gsm voice raher than having to use csd00:50
itsnotabigtruck2problem is that said scip system uses a really expensive patented proprietary codec :/00:51
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck2: its just IPsec with different algorithms00:51
itsnotabigtruck2isn't that HAIPE, not SCIP?00:51
* itsnotabigtruck2 's knowledge of this stuff is based entirely off wikipedia :p00:51
Avengencebrain fart, HAIPE is the super secrets IPsec00:51
TronicSpeaking of security, has anyone managed to find RRLP in Harmattan yet?00:52
itsnotabigtruck2Tronic: i think that's part of the cmt firmware00:52
itsnotabigtruck2so if you want to look for it, look there00:52
AvengenceSCIP is phone relatd, and Skipjack is one of the algorithms but now i cant remember if that was for voice or data00:52
itsnotabigtruck2it's almost certainly there somewhere00:52
TronicI'm not into hacking myself but I'd certainly like to have some control over that feature.00:52
Avengenceanyway, yeah, its funny, wikipedia has shit you cant ask about but when you say it then you get to hear the next part00:52
TronicAt the very least a notification when it is being used.00:52
itsnotabigtruck2also skipjack is obsolete, that's what they wanted to promote along with the clipper chip00:52
itsnotabigtruck2current nist guidelines ban use of skipjack00:53
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DocScrutinizer51Tronic: cmt fw00:53
jabismotherf*cker - after reflashing the developer mode won't install00:53
infobotrrlp is probably the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or
itsnotabigtruck2clipper chip, as in that civilian encrypted voice thing in the 90s that was backdoored00:53
itsnotabigtruck2that turned into a huge fiasco00:54
Avengenceyep, it was crap00:54
Avengencethere was more than one easy exploit00:54
SpeedEvilOTP is now ridiculous - you can carry keys for a thousand people  for an hour, and not notice it on a $10 card.00:54
Avengencetrivial to recover keys00:54
itsnotabigtruck2i thought it wasn't trivial to recover keys, but there was a brute-force attack to spoof a LEAF (key escrow field)00:55
SpeedEvilI was wondering about a socket that can split a microSD in half.00:55
SpeedEvilGood luck recovering that.00:55
itsnotabigtruck2allowing you to establish a crypto conversation without a valid leaf, and therefore without being able to be intercepted00:55
itsnotabigtruck2(well, it was trivial to recover keys if you had the gov master key, and if the leaf wasn't spoofed per above)00:56
Avengenceif I understood it right, you could play a related problem the other way as well00:56
Corsacgrmbl, tracker won't let me backup the smses00:56
itsnotabigtruck2bur yeah, the cool thing about the government system is that unlike ZRTP and the like00:56
itsnotabigtruck2it works over both the internet and modem00:56
Avengencebasically, they fucked the backdoor. anyone playing straight would be easy to eavesdrop on. anyone not playing it straight would be harder for the govt to eavesdrop on.00:57
itsnotabigtruck2meaning that you could have a landline phone that can speak through a gateway to a computer or voip phone or internet-connected mobile phone00:57
ZogG_laptopnice seems that restore thing dooesn't work not for apps from ovi not from apps4meego00:58
ZogG_laptopalways different errors though00:58
Avengenceyep, thats what i was saying before about calling a hardline. they wouldnt accept the mobile stuff if it was not backwards compatible with all the existing wired phones00:58
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itsnotabigtruck2but the problem is that the government system relies on X.509 for authentication00:59
itsnotabigtruck2meaning it's not practical outside of a closed environment00:59
itsnotabigtruck2you need something like ZRTP's short authentication strings to have true any-to-any crypto calls00:59
Avengencethe tech that makes that happen is something the rest of us won't see. anyone who works on it will run afould of patents and then they can either contribute to the closed pool or be gone00:59
itsnotabigtruck2but that system doesn't tell you anything about who's really calling you00:59
itsnotabigtruck2makes which happen?01:00
KozziZogG_laptop: how did you install apps4meego ?01:00
KozziI keep getting "Aegis rejected..."01:01
ZogG_laptopKozzi, go to the site from phone and click - install client?01:01
itsnotabigtruck2Kozzi: you can download it from the appsformeego website, but what i did is just put the apt lines in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/appsformeego.list01:01
KozziZogG_laptop: doesn't work for me01:01
Avengencei was refering to the tech for inter op of wired and wireless, analog and digital devices with mixed compression algoritms01:01
ZogG_laptopKozzi, if you re-flashed turn on back option of untrusted sources01:01
itsnotabigtruck2also you need to install aegis-community-source-policy01:01
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ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, it's installed automagically if you install client01:02
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: yeah, but i don't like the client01:02
KozziZogG_laptop: yeah I have it enabled01:02
itsnotabigtruck2it's kind of a hunk of junk01:02
Kozziitsnotabigtruck2: I reinstalled it but no help01:02
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ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, you are welcome to do better one =P01:02
Avengenceas for the X509 reliance, the govt does it that way because its authoritarian but you could easyily change how keys are shared without compromising the other features like ability to traverse mixed media01:02
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itsnotabigtruck2on the zrtp side of things, privatewave apparently implemented a zrtp over modem system01:04
itsnotabigtruck2but they abandoned it and never released specs like their website promised01:04
Sazpaimonremember nokia suite?01:04
Sazpaimonwell, it's still busy01:04
itsnotabigtruck2still not working?01:04
itsnotabigtruck2ok, clearly something is wrong01:04
AvengenceZRTP relies on at some point knowing who is calling. if you dont already know the person out of band, then you have a problem, but that is for differnt use. zrtp is civilian and its assumed you know the person. anyone tat you call or receive call from that isnt known is not trust so dont talk secrets01:05
Sazpaimoneven though I can see all my texts from my phone01:05
Sazpaimonall my pictures01:05
Sazpaimonall my everything01:05
Sazpaimonand can sync them all01:05
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, what happened?01:05
Sazpaimonbut backup just wont work01:05
Sazpaimonand capacity is stuck at updating01:05
ZogG_laptopbtw as i'm at windows i need to check backup thing01:05
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: it's still the least awful option, it seems01:05
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itsnotabigtruck2but right now the software support is nonexistant01:05
SazpaimonI mean I can do a complete reflash with what I have now01:05
Sazpaimonsince i did a sync01:05
Sazpaimonthats not as good as a backup, though01:05
Sazpaimonwhich I'd *really* like to have01:06
itsnotabigtruck2it's in a few linux clients, but not the prominent ones01:06
itsnotabigtruck2i don't think there's any windows voip software with zrtp built in01:06
itsnotabigtruck2that's a problem01:06
Sazpaimonokay screw this01:06
Sazpaimonim uninstalling nokia suite01:06
Avengenceif you need to be able to call someone you dont know but still have proff regarding endpoints and call security, then you are not a normal person. such use typically only comes up in stuff like govt where you get a call from someone you dont know but who has authority over you and the phone can confirm that01:06
itsnotabigtruck2one approach would be for the phone to show a fingerprint of some sort01:07
itsnotabigtruck2and the person who referred you to the callee gives you the fingerprint01:07
itsnotabigtruck2you call and compare01:07
itsnotabigtruck2but that only verifies in one direction01:07
Avengencei agree, ZRTP is least bad and actually i'd say probably pretty good for civillian use in terms of the protociol. the implementation however leaves much to be desired. the proxy is flaky, it needs t obe integrated in more softphones. probleme is moments, why should one when others dont01:08
itsnotabigtruck2also there's lots of scenarios you'd call someone you don't have an existing relationship with01:08
Avengenceso some oss projects have old broken zrtp support for library versions you cant get and generally the options dont build right without a fight, so I hardly know anyone using zrtp01:08
itsnotabigtruck2e.g. calling a company, calling a new acquaintance, calling a customer, etc.01:08
itsnotabigtruck2this is all based on an assumption that you want to go secure as often as possible, whether or not there's anything that secret being talked about01:09
itsnotabigtruck2also fwiw it's actually possible to use x.509 together with zrtp01:10
Avengencewell, in the case of something like calling a business, its easy. the business puts their fingerprint by their phone number. if you see it come up then you got connected to the right place.01:10
itsnotabigtruck2but there's a total of zero implementations of that01:10
itsnotabigtruck2they added it in late in the rfcification01:10
itsnotabigtruck2the spec requires that the cert be DSA or ECDSA, not RSA01:10
itsnotabigtruck2and right now suite b adoption isn't so hot in general01:10
AvengenceI've been following ZRTP since the first yaer it was demoed at defcon and I'm constantly disappointed by the lake of uptake01:11
itsnotabigtruck2part of it is because voip software isn't so hot in genersal01:11
Sazpaimonok, uninstalled the drivers, pc suite, nokia link, and nokia suite01:11
ZogG_laptopit's not polite that you talk about such things, it makes me feel real stupid =)01:11
itsnotabigtruck2most of it is decaying and decrepit01:11
Sazpaimonreinstalling nokia suite now01:11
AvengenceSuite B was a big thing 6 years ago for govt, I'd think rest would have caught up01:11
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Avengenceyeah, most of the voip stuff is rather shit01:12
Avengencei dont get it, why does everyone ignore sip01:12
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: elliptic curve cryptography is *just starting* to hit most programs01:12
Kozziapps4meego 0.9.17 install fine but *.25 doesn't01:12
itsnotabigtruck2openssl didn't have it "for real" until 1.0, which is still unusual on conservative linux distros01:12
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, what version supports n9?01:12
itsnotabigtruck2no public CA offers ecdsa/ecdh certificates meaning SSL using suite b is very unusual01:13
Avengenceskype is raher crap but end up using it b/c somehow nobody else can figure out sip. then they bitch about skype being flaky asd why isn't there anything else (of course if I mention SIP it just makes them mad)01:13
itsnotabigtruck2similar problems regarding slow uptake with openssh01:13
SazpaimonZogG_laptop, the 3.5 beta01:13
itsnotabigtruck2red hat and fedora exclude all elliptic curve stuff entirely01:13
AvengenceSSL, CAs, etc are rather worthless in my opinion01:13
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ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, and i need to get it thru betalabs right?01:13
itsnotabigtruck2gpg won't have ecc until 2.1 and it won't be finished for a long while01:14
SazpaimonZogG_laptop, yes01:14
itsnotabigtruck2ms outlook 2010 on windows 7 is the only program that supports ecc in s/mime01:14
itsnotabigtruck2and only maybe 2 smart cards with ecc support are available on the market01:14
Avengencei've never seen s/mime used outside govt01:14
Avengencebut surprisig they got their act together, gor a long time microsoft only had des and no aes in their s/mime01:15
itsnotabigtruck2yeah, in order to use aes with s/mime you have to use outlook 2007 or 2010 on vista or 701:15
itsnotabigtruck2that has to do with the major crypto changes from xp to vista01:16
itsnotabigtruck2so in general, ecc software is really really slow in coming01:16
Avengencei still use gpg1.4. I got teh feeling that gpg2 had lost direction already and it never seemed like it was even ready. like gnome3 or basically any other gnu wtf01:16
itsnotabigtruck2and no one seems to really care about it besides g-men01:16
itsnotabigtruck2even though it seems like a dramatic enhancement over rsa01:17
Avengencefor the resy of us, why are we going to pay $200 for a 1 year cert to encrypt email to the few other people that paid it and use the same client and platform? gpg is free and even that is hard to get people to use01:17
itsnotabigtruck2you can get s/mime certs free from 3 CAs01:18
itsnotabigtruck21 year duration, renewable01:18
ZogG_laptoplol in the middle of me installin app by app from ovi store it decided to just reboot01:18
itsnotabigtruck2e-mail validated only of course01:18
ZogG_laptopfor no reason01:18
itsnotabigtruck2if you sign up with startcom, you log into your account with a free s/mime cert, and can obtain free ssl certs through that account01:19
Avengencetheres major interop insues not just with algorithms, but some clients get sick on the ASN1 encoding from ohter client (specifically how the data is chunks can make a message undecodable without manual working with openssl cli)01:19
Corsacthe whole x509/CA ecosystem is a mess01:19
Corsacand asn1 is even messier :)01:19
itsnotabigtruck2asn.1 is a cool idea01:19
itsnotabigtruck2it doesn't seem like very many people like it though01:19
itsnotabigtruck2the main problem i see is that most apis for dealing with it are pretty atrocious01:20
AvengenceI see a lot of other things that are basically a crappy subset of it if you think about it01:20
KozziZogG_laptop: PushUp will reboot the phone after installation :D01:20
itsnotabigtruck2also it's a little bit out of place in a world that's moved on to other representations01:20
Corsacparsing asn.1 is just horrible01:20
Avengencesomehow its just too much so people run and scream and go with somthing simpler even if it means reinventing the wheel and makig nyet another crappy encoding01:20
Corsacand thus people make mistakes01:20
ZogG_laptopKozzi, nope it wasn't somethin that reboot it01:20
itsnotabigtruck2most of the problems with asn.1 in practice seem to be people from the 90s who couldn't be arsed to correctly use it01:21
itsnotabigtruck2e.g. all the totally borked x.509 certs from back then01:21
itsnotabigtruck2no reason it had to be that way01:21
Avengenceright, basically all that stuff is crap. the smartcard stuff before pcsc, the old x509, the original ssl, all that stuf is terrible trash code01:21
itsnotabigtruck2also since anything based on asn.1 can be incorporated into anything else that uses it, it would have made x.509 and all that itu stuff more useful if asn.1 caught on01:22
Avengencebut companies refuse to do away with waht they paid for (whehter it was license of programmer salary) an instead they pour more resources into "preserving" their "investment"01:22
itsnotabigtruck2e.g. if you have a protocol based on asn.1, if you want to incorporate certificates, you can just drop the cert directly into the asn.1 output01:22
itsnotabigtruck2or you could store asn.1 data directly into an x.500 directly and query over it01:23
itsnotabigtruck2*second directly = directory01:23
Avengencethe fact I couldnt have an s/mime exchange between apple's and exchange which on xp due to encoding, but I could manually deal with the messages in seconds, always kinda pissed me off while leaving me thankful. dumb mistakes but at least the format used is workable01:24
itsnotabigtruck2i use it because i like how it's built into most e-mail clients01:24
itsnotabigtruck2using gpg isn't very smooth01:24
itsnotabigtruck2the gpg devs don't really care much because they use mutt and the like01:25
jabishmm damnit - now that I updated to 1.3 I can't flash a previous open kernel x)01:25
itsnotabigtruck2s/mime seems to work ok these days, except for windows xp + outlook not doing aes01:25
itsnotabigtruck2jabis: just grab inception01:25
jabisyeh already downloading01:25
itsnotabigtruck2if you really want open mode, try taking the main firmware image and flashing only the kernel01:26
itsnotabigtruck2don't bother with the "open kernel"01:26
itsnotabigtruck2but really, if you're going to do that, you need to follow this procedure01:26
itsnotabigtruck2a) clear the disclaimer image01:26
itsnotabigtruck2b) go into flash mode, without booting harmattan in between01:26
itsnotabigtruck2c) flash the entire firmware image + emmc01:26
itsnotabigtruck2d) flash the kernel only01:26
itsnotabigtruck2e) reboot01:26
itsnotabigtruck2otherwise you'll have a disclaimer splash, and various aegis problems01:27
AvengenceI've always had pgp integration in my email clients01:27
itsnotabigtruck2of course i recommend just using inception :p01:27
itsnotabigtruck2kmail is the only email client that has gpg support built in01:27
itsnotabigtruck2enigmail is available for thunderbird but it isn't very good01:27
itsnotabigtruck2the gpg4win outlook plugin isn't very good either01:27
merlin1991itsnotabigtruck2: the full flash does not enable the warning again?01:27
AvengenceI used PMMail on OS/2 and later NT and it was an excellent multi-account POP client with pgp integration. if it did IMAP I'd probably still be using that program01:28
itsnotabigtruck2merlin1991: nope, the disclaimer image is stored in the calibration data area (cal) during boot01:28
jabissure you do ^^ and by all means it's great - just that I'm experimenting with some kernel modules to get vpn connections up for "default" windows TS01:28
itsnotabigtruck2if there's no disclaimer image stored there, it doesn't display during boot01:28
itsnotabigtruck2you can't modify the cal, however, after going into open mode01:28
itsnotabigtruck2that's also why it stays gone after going into open mode01:28
Avengencefor the mac, teres the GPGMail plugin to that integated gpg very similar to s/mime01:28
itsnotabigtruck2so you have to clear it from normal mode, then go into open mode01:28
itsnotabigtruck2then it's set for good01:29
Avengencekmail is what I'll be using when akonadi is working. thunderbird + enigmail are definitely not cutting it01:29
itsnotabigtruck2anyway, i'm using s/mime but have basically zero correspondents using it :(01:30
itsnotabigtruck2but the same applies to gpg01:30
rzritsnotabigtruck, send me more mails :)01:30
itsnotabigtruck2that's mostly because hardly anyone seems to care about security01:30
Sazpaimonuninstalled and reinstalled nokia suite01:30
Sazpaimonstill bus01:30
itsnotabigtruck2Sazpaimon: what screen does it do that on01:30
itsnotabigtruck2can't you do something different and avoid that01:31
Sazpaimonwhenever i click backup01:31
Sazpaimonor restore01:31
itsnotabigtruck2what if you try having nokia suite forget the phone, then re-add it01:31
rzritsnotabigtruck, bah everyone is not idiot ...!/NeedADebitCard#01:31
Avengencegpg I use with some friends, some business people, and have used randonlyt with a few ebay transactions01:31
itsnotabigtruck2oh, well, why not just sync the SMSes and contacts up to your pc01:31
itsnotabigtruck2skip the backup function01:31
itsnotabigtruck2maybe the backup feature doesn't work on n901:31
Avengencethe fact I've partipated in a key signing party probably puts me in the minoroty01:31
jabishmm - now I lost the address to my .deb repos, I've installed dammit - I had a few key utilities that aren't there anymore01:32
itsnotabigtruck2while e-mail validation only isn't so great, i don't really like the web of trust model either01:32
itsnotabigtruck2other people can't be trusted to keep their keys secure, and it makes it really hard to get new users going with encryption01:32
itsnotabigtruck2since in order to be trusted, they have to get a bunch of other gpg users to sign their keys01:32
itsnotabigtruck2and chances are they know 0 or 1 well integrated gpg users01:32
itsnotabigtruck2probably 001:32
Avengences/mime I used when it was my job and never outside that. company email and govt emails were s/mime and then there was frequent decoding issues. I had one of the ECA certs for communicating with NSA which my mployers paid quite a lot for. the process only confirmed how bad CAs are01:33
itsnotabigtruck2also those eca certificates are escrowed01:33
Avengenceall govt certs ar escorwed01:33
itsnotabigtruck2fortunately the free tc trustcenter / comodo / startcom s/mime certs aren't escrowed, they're generated by your browser01:33
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, when does it got stuck? on update or what?01:33
itsnotabigtruck2or by your smart card if you set one of those up with your browser01:34
jabishmm - a wrapper for inception would be cool for QtCreator01:34
Venemogood night guys :)01:34
itsnotabigtruck2jabis: what would it do?01:34
Sazpaimonokay, i deleted the phone from nokia suite01:34
itsnotabigtruck2later Venemo01:34
Sazpaimonand deleted all my settings01:34
Avengenceand its a damn good thing. whe nyou change your cac, you have to get your old key in softcac form to read any past mail. it doesnt take long to build a large collection of 'old' tokens you need. the only thing that grows faster is the revocation lists01:34
ZogG_laptopVenemo, night01:35
Sazpaimonnot even gonna sign into my nokia account01:35
jabisitsnotabigtruck2 incept when testing on board device instead of using dpkg -i01:35
itsnotabigtruck2i'm sure it's possible01:35
itsnotabigtruck2i don't use qtc myself and i'm not particularly interested in dealing with it01:35
itsnotabigtruck2i haven't had many good experiences with it01:35
jabisgonna experiment with mce::TKLockControl01:36
itsnotabigtruck2it's packaging stuff is black magic that makes a ton of often-bad assumptions01:36
Avengencethere's a magic phrase to get an ECA cert if you want to make an attempt social engineering some spooks01:36
itsnotabigtruck2e.g. if you try to install something to a path that doesn't contain bin01:36
jabisso now I have to hit test - uninstall locally and then incept the package x)01:36
itsnotabigtruck2it won't be made +01:36
Avengenceall you have to remember is "I work with the NSA"01:36
itsnotabigtruck2excuse me, +x01:36
Avengencethat gets you further trhan it ever should01:36
Avengencenormal procedure to get ECA cert for an mployee of DoD contractor: fill out huge pile of paperwork including letter on company letterhead and get it all notarized then mail it to one of the ECAs. they should do all the verification of not just your identify but confirming your company is listed as not just someone who has a business relationshiop but needs a such a cert01:39
ZogG_laptopwho made the very first client for radio?01:39
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: javispedro did the backend code01:39
itsnotabigtruck2i think qmlradio was the first frontend and it was by someone else01:39
itsnotabigtruck2the two people trying to cash out on the ovi store with paid apps came later01:40
Avengencea fw weeks after I submitted my papers, I got a call on my desk phone from the person at the ECA processing my papers. He didn't really verify who I was, which was the first big mistake I noticed. He told me my company could not be found on the DoD's list01:40
itsnotabigtruck2btw jabis: for testing purposes, maybe get opensh installed01:40
itsnotabigtruck2and then in order to test, run something like01:40
itsnotabigtruck2opensh -c 'aegis-exec -c -a mce::TKLockControl ./yourprogram'01:41
itsnotabigtruck2ariadne won't work since it has a password prompt01:41
Avengencethe company had contracts with DoD for years, but had never been told to go cert ECA certs for s/mime. it wasn't until NSA got invilved that that came up. so I said, "oh, we work for both DoD and NSA, it was the latter that asked me to get this."01:41
AvengenceHis response "OOh! NSA never puts anyone on the list!" and that was that. I had my cert th next day. apparently , the NSA list is too secret for the ECAs to see it01:42
ZogG_laptopAvengence, there is this system for safety of mastercards in internet it's used to pay nokia publish fee of 1 euro btw01:43
itsnotabigtruck2not sure why anyone would want escrowed certificates with their real identities on them if they aren't on official gov business anyway01:43
itsnotabigtruck2if you use that to fool around, well, they know precisely where to send the black helicopters :p01:43
ZogG_laptopAvengence, so you need code to proceed which you get with the credit bills01:43
ZogG_laptopi don't get those so i called them01:44
Avengencethat about the same level of genious as "RSA has a weakness that we know (but won't discuss) so we can't use it on the classified network. nothing better exists, so we will do everything in the clear on the classified side until we have a good enoug halgorithm, because nothing is better than something imperfect! oh, and we can all trust each other in the classified net, permimeter defenses flawles01:44
AvengenceZogG_laptop: you talking about 3D-Secure?01:44
itsnotabigtruck2wasn't that the whole point of all that suite b stuff anyway01:45
ZogG_laptopand all i needed to say wass phone number or ID number, it's so stupid i think, like if person stoled my bag he would get all info anyway, but on other hand they do not provide it thru bank site that is more protected as credit card is separete from bank company01:45
itsnotabigtruck2Avengence: sounds like it01:45
ZogG_laptopAvengence, i dunno the name, it doesn't matter, what matters is that how i got code easily n phone but not thru encrypted bank site =)01:46
itsnotabigtruck2on sites with vbvisa it just sends me to the bank website then back to the merchant website without any prompts01:46
AvengenceSuite B should be good enough for the classified stuff, but it was not yet even up for adoption there at the time I was involved. the email client loaded on the classified side has signatures only01:46
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AvengenceVerified by Visa, MatserCard SecureCode are both 3D-Secure01:46
Avengencesorry, I just did 2 years in THAT industry01:47
itsnotabigtruck2also maybe there's some substance to those conspiracy theories that the nsa's already broken rsa :p01:47
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, the point here is that in our country visa is separete almost monopoly thing, if it's not straight from them, it probably means other company ordered them from them and just use their service at the end01:47
Avengencei knew crypto and smartcards so that got some interest. I took a job wherI did a CAP server and then all the rest was maintaining awful 3D Secure systems (mainly the MPI , ACS was someone elses nightmare) until I got the fuck out01:48
Octal_Rely on EMV !01:48
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: they don't have mastercard, amex, etc. in .il?01:48
itsnotabigtruck2also it's a shame how emv deployment is uber slow in the us01:48
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, we have mastercads and visas01:48
AvengenceOctal_: CAP is an EMV spec01:48
AvengenceCAP is SHIT01:49
Avengenceit has giant holes because it was designed by idiots01:49
Avengence3D secure is worse though01:49
Octal_I'm working on contactless EMV01:49
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, but AFAIK it's 2 or one company in control of that01:49
itsnotabigtruck2on the tube, it turns out that while the machines accept magstripe cards, there's a super low daily limit on how much you can put on your card01:49
itsnotabigtruck2if you have a chip card, the limit is much higher01:50
itsnotabigtruck2probably because they're worried about cloned cards or something01:50
Avengencenow that I've seen it, I refuse to carry a 3D Secure card. all it does it makee it harder for me the cardholder if there is any fraudulent activity, itwill never actually reduce chances of that happening01:50
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itsnotabigtruck2also, do any banks in the us even use cap01:51
itsnotabigtruck2i thought that was mostly a brit thing01:51
Avengencechip cards dont exist i nUS. amex tried, it wa signored. so now its rfid in US forget security, we want convience, just wave my wallet to pay, who cares if more than just that machine reads my card01:51
itsnotabigtruck2i have a US chip card, but yeah, they're unusual01:51
itsnotabigtruck2a few banks market them to travelers01:51
AvengenceCAP is in use in less than a half dozen countries worldwide afaik01:51
itsnotabigtruck2i haven't seen a single us store with an emv reader01:52
itsnotabigtruck2also it seems like the banks are moving away from RFIDs in cards01:52
Avengenceanyway, I've yet to see a card that was properly setup for CAP. either they are in the lame mode with really weak security, or theyt just dont work and the bank gives up when they realize that01:52
itsnotabigtruck2now they're pushing RFIDs in stickers and phones, but not cards01:53
Avengencewell, my bank card is debit but carries visa logi and embossed so it can run as credit. its got a magstripe, emv chip and rfid for contactless pay up to small limit.01:54
Avengencethe only thing its missing is a keypad on the card face01:54
itsnotabigtruck2also it would be so much better if banks issued crypto cards and used ssl client certs or something01:54
itsnotabigtruck2but per what i was complaining about earlier, compatibility and software support sucks majorly01:54
itsnotabigtruck2so i guess that's why they turn to things like cap01:54
AvengenceUS banks are using the security questo=ions, europeans banks use real two factor auth01:55
itsnotabigtruck2some of them use codes sent through email or sms01:55
itsnotabigtruck2or phone call01:55
ZogG_laptopboth of you are crazy01:55
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Avengencethe swedish-owned bank I used in estonia mandated an OTP card for web nanking and if you wanted a limit high enough for it to be useful then you have to use a pin calculator (like rsa secureID) in mode 1 to login, mode 2 to confirm each transaction01:56
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itsnotabigtruck2speaking of OTP, OTP systems are garbage01:56
itsnotabigtruck2well, most of them01:56
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, not in a bad way01:57
Avengencemy czech bank lets me login with a static password but they have optio to do ssl client login with cert stored how I chose (they suggest usb stick but I prefer smartcard in usb holder with pin protection)01:57
itsnotabigtruck2they're generally either provisioned by the vendor, or can be user-provisioned but only with super expensive hardware01:57
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, what time is in your place now btw01:57
itsnotabigtruck2that means that somebody else knows your secrets01:57
itsnotabigtruck2that means somebody else can impersonate your users or be breached by somebody else who wants to impersonate your users01:57
itsnotabigtruck2that's precisely what happened with rsa securid01:57
Avengenceto do a transaction a have to repeat the code sent to my phone by sms, but thats just web bank. to use my credit card onoine, I have 3D Secure off so I always bounce off the ACS with an instant success01:58
itsnotabigtruck2they were keeping everybody's secrets in a database, connected to their lan01:58
itsnotabigtruck2they got breached, hax0rs made off with the secrets, and used it to get into lockheed's lan iirc01:58
ZogG_laptopeverything has security holes01:58
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ZogG_laptopthe point is not to go head to head with security but to find the way to go around01:59
itsnotabigtruck2but one should try to minimize them01:59
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ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, you know how most passwords and data is stolen?01:59
itsnotabigtruck2in this case, securid is a product marketed to keep your lan more secure01:59
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itsnotabigtruck2but they couldn't be trusted to behave securely01:59
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itsnotabigtruck2they being rsa data security01:59
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itsnotabigtruck2note that rsa data security, and rsa securid, have nothing to do with rsa encryption02:00
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, people put cameras and card readers inside ATMs even (in russia for example)02:00
AvengenceSecureID is worse. the last place (banking guys) I worked at used the secureID for VPN logins at the ISP. part of Visa rules, to levels of auth, cant control the entry point, etc. basically SecureID for VPN to ISPs private net to then SSH into our production servers02:00
ZogG_laptopor people simple watch password you type or make site to look alike as bank site02:00
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: yeah but you the user can do something about phishing02:00
itsnotabigtruck2by not being an idiot02:00
itsnotabigtruck2emv cards would help a lot with the atm skimming problem02:01
itsnotabigtruck2since you can't skim a chip02:01
Avengencewe had a box of SecureID cards and only used a few. as we got toward the end, someone noticed something wasnt right. the card serial and the keyfile serials were misaligned by 1. we had 1 card for which we had no key, and we had a key for a card we didnt posses (but knwe the serial!)02:01
itsnotabigtruck2well, presumably the owner of that securid device sent it back or tossed it out or something02:01
Avengencesuffice to say, when that was discovered, the whole box went back to RSA and the VPN was off until the new box was verified02:01
itsnotabigtruck2but yeah, that's bad02:02
itsnotabigtruck2that's why vendor provisioning sucks02:02
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, you missed the link rzr sent yesterday, just go to twitter or facebook and enter "credit card" you'll get pictures of them people send to internet02:02
itsnotabigtruck2i saw it02:02
Avengencein all these cases, CAs, RSA, etc its just the same old stupid slop. waht makes this companhy in any position to enforce security? NONE02:02
itsnotabigtruck2he sent it again today02:02
itsnotabigtruck2at least with smart cards, you generate the key on the card02:02
itsnotabigtruck2and the vendor doesn't know anything about it02:02
itsnotabigtruck2at least unless they deliberately backdoored the system or something02:03
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, did you answer what time is it where you are?02:03
AvengenceZogG: ATM skimming is a problem indeed02:03
itsnotabigtruck2ZogG_laptop: the afternoon02:03
Avengencebut you have to be someplace for that. the attacks that work remote are worse02:04
ZogG_laptopAvengence, people buy binociles (how you spell it) to sit in wifi free cafe and check your passwords =)02:04
ZogG_laptopi'll try to remember but 90% i wouldn't =(02:04
itsnotabigtruck2well, a solution for that is to simply sit facing the window (laptop facing away)02:04
itsnotabigtruck2but they can also monitor the unencrypted wifi transmissions02:05
ZogG_laptopthough it's from word ocular which means sight or eyes i think02:05
AvengenceCAP has bad implications too. now with a CAP reader, you have a portable PIN verifier. a mugger can test the PIN given bby the victim before visiting an ATM. if the CAP reader says no, beat that sucker till he gives you a number thatmakse it say yes!02:05
AvengenceZogG_laptop: binocular02:05
ZogG_laptopAvengence, late but thanks =)02:06
Avengencebi=two, ocular=eyes02:06
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Avengencein case that helps02:06
ZogG_laptopyeah i remembered it02:06
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ZogG_laptopso my n950 got stuck at israel it got thru few countries in 2 days and stuck for 4 days in clearence in israel and dhl contacted me and it's always different people with same questions02:07
itsnotabigtruck2isn't israel well known for being paranoid when it comes to borders and customs02:08
itsnotabigtruck2i guess it's hard to blame them but it's still probably a big hassle02:08
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, meh it;s not that. it's all about VAT02:08
Avengenceanyway, free wifi is trouble but in general dont use any unencrypted transports on networks yo dont own or trust (and that includes your isp for things in the clear of importatce greater than irc, i use ssl on that too) and of course you should use keyfiles and not passwords in public02:08
itsnotabigtruck2or better yet, smart cards02:09
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, they take about 100% tax for cars for example, they are strcik on getting things in. and i buy same phone they may send it for FCC tests twice, though that phone was tested, just coz they can02:09
Avengencekeyfile can be on a smartcard02:09
itsnotabigtruck2well yeah but then it isn't really a file anymore :p02:09
Avengencedepends, in the smartcards there is a "filesystem" and there are "key files" with varoius protection attributes02:10
Avengencegranted folders and files have numbers instead of names, but they are called files02:10
itsnotabigtruck2true but it depends on the card and they aren't really files anyway02:10
itsnotabigtruck2and e.g. ms calls them "containers" and they're separate from files02:11
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rzrKozzi,  eyes asks about "cat /proc/version" on pr1.302:13
rzrKozzi, can anyone tell ?02:13
Sazpaimonrzr, PR1.3 kernel version is
ZogG_laptophmm i still can't update my gmail even after flash02:14
Sazpaimonhowever, let it be known that PR1.2 kernel works fine on 1.3, I have an openmode PR1.2 kernel installed and did an OTA update of 1.302:15
ZogG_laptopdoest have any data in /home/user ? maybe i need to delete old data02:15
itsnotabigtruck2Sazpaimon: er, i thought it didn't even let you do upgrades in open mode02:15
Sazpaimonit does02:15
itsnotabigtruck2being in open mode prevents going into 'update mode'02:15
Sazpaimonit just wont flash the kernel02:15
itsnotabigtruck2preventing cmt/nolo/kernel updates02:15
Sazpaimonyeah, but all the software updates will happen02:16
AvengenceI'm usually a hacker for defense. you can't defend if you don't keep up with the attacks and you can't just read, you have to try both sides so test nets get built. sooner or later, some situation presents itself that's not even a challenge but still is just ther so you do it02:16
Sazpaimonso basically the mp-001-harmattan-pr package will get updated and pull its dependencies02:16
ZogG_laptopbtw no update comming to n950 right? (i'm not talking about adding n9 repo btw)02:16
Avengencesometimes some site has such a bad hole you can't help but exploit it to confirm it, ten again to laugh, and then some more for good measure02:16
itsnotabigtruck2not sure02:17
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, Avengence it was funny when one guy had not enuf points to study computer security in uni, and he just hacked their site saying it and telling that at least who finished and got jobs should do their work02:18
rzrSazpaimon, thx02:18
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, Avengence and than day later other guy hacked his city uni telling that first guy is right =)02:18
itsnotabigtruck2i just finished a comp sec class, it was nothing but really basic information assurance stuff02:19
itsnotabigtruck2the kind of stuff i was well aware of to begin with02:19
AvengenceZogG_laptop: heh, thats te sort of harmless fun I like02:20
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck2, as i get it it was to get to uni points and the main courses he wanted are security02:21
ZogG_laptopfresh install feels faster02:21
ZogG_laptopand as just i said it  - phone rebooted itself02:22
Avengencesometimes things get carried away. i.e. stayed at a shitty hotel that advertised wifi, it only worked in the lobby. in the morning, it wasn't working at all, and when I complained they didnt want to do anything. its free, use it if it works they say. nope, I wouldnt have stayed there if they didnt say they had it, so I expect it, fix it!02:22
ZogG_laptopsecond time on installations, and nothing to triger it =\02:22
Sazpaimonokay fuck this software02:22
Sazpaimoni hope every single person that had a hand in making nokia suite gets fired02:22
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, lol, most people got fired =)02:23
Sazpaimongood, they at least deserve it02:23
Avengencewhile my wife argueed with the manager, whi climed the computer as the desk worked find, I poked around the network to find the free wifi was the same network as the computer at reception and the one in the offiuce. no separate router, if i didnt have internet, neither did they. confirmed tey are lying02:23
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Avengencethey didnt want to deal with it and I had nothing better to do so I started making noise. Their IT guy came and got the internet working, but 2 minutes later I was out the door and he had other problems. someone both their computers crashed and their entire booking database was gone02:24
Avengenceoh well, if their IT guy knows his shit, they have backups, right?02:24
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ZogG_laptopso my mail problem wasn't solved after flash as well02:38
jabiswhat mail problem?02:53
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ZogG_laptopjabis, it doesn download any emails at all03:18
ZogG_laptopall i get is circle indicator in app03:18
jabishave you tried removing and adding the account that doesn't work?03:19
jabisflashing your phone (without clearing your user data) wont affect the accounts03:19
ZogG_laptopjabis, i did flashed pr1.303:19
jabisbut with --clear-user-data ?03:20
jabisor without03:20
jabisjust flasher -f -F img.bin ?03:20
jabis(I mean I flashed as well, and everything is still here)03:21
ZogG_laptopflashe.exe -F img.bin -f03:21
jabisthat wouldn't clear teh userdata :)03:21
ZogG_laptopbut i did it and it didn't solve03:22
ZogG_laptopit was before pr1.303:22
ElleoZogG_laptop: if it's the messageserver bug you need to delete a directory too03:22
ZogG_laptopi assume there is some config or data corrupted and its in user dir03:22
Elleoiirc it's ~/.qmf or something like that03:22
ZogG_laptopElleo, i dunno what is msg bug and what else it would delete except mail realted stuff?03:23
Elleoremove accounts, delete ~/.qmf, restart then readd accounts03:23
ZogG_laptopElleo, all accounts?03:23
Elleomessageserver gets stuck using 100% when trying to get mails and never fetches anything03:23
Elleoyeah, you're going to have to recreate them all after removing .qmf03:23
ZogG_laptopElleo, and restore is not an option after?03:24
ZogG_laptopas it would coppy corupted files?03:24
Elleoquite probably, but if your accounts are all imap you won't be losing anything03:24
ZogG_laptopcan it be doen without deleting all accounts?03:24
Elleosince the mails are stored on the server03:24
Elleodunno, deleting ~/.qmf might result in the accounts being deleted as well; not sure03:25
ZogG_laptopElleo, i'm not affraid to lose emails i'm affraid to restore and backupthings again =\03:25
AvengenceZogG_laptop: do you have any gmail accounts?03:25
Elleoor you might end up in a wierd scenario where it's desynched03:25
ZogG_laptopAvengence,  the one that is not working =)03:25
AvengenceZogG_laptop: delete the gmail account, reboot, see if others work03:25
AvengenceI've been trhough it several times, its always the gmail account03:26
Avengenceit hangs or prevents startup of the messageserver so no email flows03:26
Avengenceyou can manually start the messageserver aftre boot but it'll eventally get stuck03:26
ElleoAvengence: you have to remove the .qmf dir as well as the account03:26
Avengencesolution is to add back the gmail acount after the reboot so its coming in fresh with no old data03:27
Elleoanyway, I'm heading to bed03:27
AvengenceElleo: removing the qmf directory did not help, the account had to be removed. when removing the account, qmf dir did not require separate handling (this was my experience twince, thats all)03:28
Elleoah, I'm just going on what I've seen others say on the topic03:28
Elleoanyway, really off bed this time ;)03:29
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ZogG_laptopAvengence, what process?03:29
Avengencethe qmf dir is a cache that might get cleaned by the remove or maybe it was horked so the restart cleared it anyway. you should be able to delet the qmf dirs when yo uwant and you just have to download messages again03:30
ZogG_laptopAvengence, i'llmove it03:30
ZogG_laptopsimple like that03:30
ZogG_laptopis it accounts dir or just mails?03:31
itsnotabigtruckback on03:31
ZogG_laptopi backed up before flash anyway03:32
itsnotabigtrucklooks like i didn't miss much03:32
AvengenceZogG_laptop: messageserver iirc03:32
AvengenceZogG_laptop: the .qmf is just a message cache, doesnt hold the account data03:32
ZogG_laptopAvengence, global msgs ass sms as well or just mail?03:33
Avengencetheres some scripts that run at boot to setup the cache and start the server. if theres a problem with te cache dirs, it wont start the server03:33
ZogG_laptopAvengence, and qmf is cache dir right?03:33
AvengenceZogG_laptop: its just email and its split up by email account but easiest to kill it all at once if you need to03:34
ZogG_laptopoh than i don't care to delete it anyways03:34
Avengenceall your sms, etc are elsewhere in database03:34
ZogG_laptopAvengence, thanks03:36
ZogG_laptopbtw did mail had get more msgs button before?03:36
ZogG_laptopit works now03:36
ZogG_laptopAvengence, i moved dir and as well deleted account03:37
ZogG_laptopand rebooted03:37
ZogG_laptopi have my mail back03:37
Avengenceunless they fixed it in 1.3, the template for gmail accounts doesnt match the xml format nokia defined so it throws a warning in the logs on each startup about some bad xml in parsing the account data.03:39
Avengencethat isn't the cause as far as I can tell, but that was enough to draw me to the gmail account and confirm that removing that one made all my other accounts work03:39
ZogG_laptopnow i may go to sleep03:40
ZogG_laptopafter one more cig03:40
ZogG_laptopbtw what the f people talked about changes in twitter, i don't see any changes, as well frals is not working there anymore =\03:41
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, hmm i see your twitter, gonna stalk you03:41
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon, 0 tweets and 1 follower =)03:42
Avengencemy opinion is that there isn't often much of meaning that can be said in so few words, so I ignore the abreviated drivel03:42
Avengencea few times someone has tossed me a twitter link that maybe would have had something good, but I think I've only once had one load something other than a blank page03:43
itsnotabigtruckwhich browser do you use03:43
itsnotabigtruckand it's definitely possible to get something meaningful into 160 words03:43
ZogG_laptopAvengence, let's say that it's kinda public sms, i thought why to use it too, but it's nice to read announecements and some thoughts and connect with people, i have a lot of maemo/meego ppl there to ask or to share something03:44
itsnotabigtruckexcuse me, 140 characters03:44
Avengencefirefix + adblock + noscript & more03:44
Avengencetypo, but maybe it need to be firefixed03:44
ZogG_laptopAvengence, it's more as mobile app i think, though i use a lot in browser too. as well you can be not public thn no one would bug you untill you say so03:45
Avengencesms is barely useful to me. I rarely fit anything into 1 message. its usually a 2 or 3 part message to say anything useful. I prefer email03:45
AvengenceI find it funny with Goolge Voice. the character counter goes away and it says "Really?" just about when I think I'm halfway.03:46
itsnotabigtruck just twitterized my inception release03:47
itsnotabigtruckalso Avengence: whitelist twitter for noscript03:47
itsnotabigtrucknoscript is nothing but trouble03:47
TronicI wonder why people would use that in the first place...03:48
TronicWeb doesn't work without Javascript.03:48
ZogG_laptopmy app seems still works on pr1.303:49
TronicYou might just as well disable CSS, except then things would at least still work.03:49
Avengenceweb was designed as documents. documents dont need javascript03:49
itsnotabigtruckwith a web that increasingly relies on javascript, stripping it out of everything is moronic03:49
Avengenceanything that wants to execute to show me something is suspect03:49
itsnotabigtruckit was designed for documents but that was 20 years ago03:49
itsnotabigtruckit isn't anymore03:49
Avengenceit should have died abot 20 years ago too03:49
itsnotabigtruckthings change03:50
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, you missed one thing - QR code03:50
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: what about it?03:50
Avengencemaybe if the browser tabs had some isolation i might be more willig to let some javascript run03:50
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, you may add it as the picture so i can open in browser and download it to phone03:50
ZogG_laptopor open link in the phone03:50
Avengenceas it is, very minimal makes everything MUCH faster03:50
ZogG_laptopAvengence, than again you can use console browser without tabs03:51
Avengenceanother problem is no browser is smart enough to stop scripts on non-foreground pages. i dont need scripts runnign on 100 tabs I cant see. almost none of those pages even need a script, so if it cant isolate them and stop them when not in use, then they dont even get teh priviledge03:51
jabisI love it how some people are stuck to the 90's03:51
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: i already have one on the inception website03:52
itsnotabigtrucki didn't put it on the tmo post03:52
itsnotabigtrucki want everyone to click through to the website anyway03:52
itsnotabigtruckit has stuff people need to read03:52
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, add it's usefull03:52
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, btw i installed inception without dpkg - just with native installer from downloads03:52
itsnotabigtruckbtw if any inception fans could retweet that tweet that would be awesome03:53
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, yeah but you can make QR code to site03:53
itsnotabigtruckand yeah, that's intended to work03:53
itsnotabigtrucki take it that means your reflash was successful?03:53
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, retweeted though i think no use, as everyone using it anyway03:53
itsnotabigtrucki hope that whole thing earlier didn't cause you to lose any data of interest03:53
Avengenceas an industry, we have a security situation so bad that anyone SANE would not pay for this shit. the world is obviously insane. most of the security issues come from bad precendents, one of which is that the user can trust the data received by the progranms he is using. its already dangerous to receive data. to execute that unchecked is madness.03:54
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, let's say if i lost somthing it's something i just horded =) its always apps i don't use or imgs, but can't delete03:54
ZogG_laptopdownloading all the internet 80 years already )03:54
Avengencei clicked that twitter link for the heck of it, it loads up, so im not blocking, its just that twitter is that unreliable03:55
itsnotabigtruckjabis: danke03:55
itsnotabigtruckbtw did bitly go from to
Avengenceone thing I couldnt help but notice, aside from the errant pounds flying around wasting precious characters, as usually, the url is a mystery redirect. who knows if its to inception or or yourIEgot0wntbitches.cn03:56
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, maaan i almost died here =) i had no devel-su as after refalsh i didn't have those reinstalled but devel mode on, had to re-enable it. thought aegis removed it03:57
Avengenceat the same time we are trying to tell people to look at links in email and not fall for phishing scams, browsers are hiding huge portions of the url bar, some dont show the url before you click on it, and retarded shorteners are getting people used to the idea of url as mystery box03:58
ZogG_laptopand yes devel mode reboots the phone03:58
ZogG_laptopmy cat if hunting insects at home03:59
ZogG_laptophe eats bugs and stuff after running after them03:59
itsnotabigtruckugh, why does grob have to suck04:01
ZogG_laptopfunny to see irc url inside termianl of n9 =P04:02
ZogG_laptopi'm incepted04:02
ZogG_laptopjust ran pasiv04:02
ZogG_laptopnow i'll give time to MohammadAG to release new system-ui he works on after it surely works with pr1.3 and than i'll incept toggles04:03
itsnotabigtruckthe browser04:03
Avengenceb/c it's a browser and they suck by definition?04:04
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck, btw liked the end of site the disclaimer about inception and n9 =)04:05
ZogG_laptopit's 04 here04:09
itsnotabigtrucklater zogg!04:11
itsnotabigtruckbtw is it possible to make a qr code some color other than black on white04:11
itsnotabigtrucki made one that's red on black but it's not scanning04:11
Avengenceif its 04 there, its almost time to smoke04:12
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck: QR codes depend on contrast, not color04:12
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Avengencered on black might be too low? I've seen blue on white, green on wjite, black on whjite, white on black, purple on orange(yellow?)04:13
itsnotabigtruckapparently you can use arbitrary colors but it has to be dark on light04:13
Avengenceit can be opposit. I have a black shit with white print that scans fine04:14
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itsnotabigtruckok, black on red with a thick border worked in codecam04:15
itsnotabigtruckyou can see it on the inception website04:16
itsnotabigtrucklooks so much cooler now04:16
AvengenceI havent tried codecam, meescan sometimes just cant see thinks that should be easily scannable. the cuecat is still faster for 1D codes04:16
* SpeedEvil looks at his cuecat.04:17
SpeedEvilI need to get the hack to convert codes working again04:17
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itsnotabigtruckbitly says there's been 53 downloads through the qr code link04:19
itsnotabigtrucka few of those are me :p04:19
AvengenceSpeedEvil: all I had to do was cut one trace to make it shit out plain ascii04:19
itsnotabigtruckthat doesn't include link downloads from the site however04:20
SpeedEvilAvengence: Oh - I diddn't know there are hardware hacks04:21
Avengenceitsnotabigtruck: I just looked at your new version and I think the border might be needed for the inverse color. I hadn't thought about but the white on black shirt has a heavy border too04:21
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AvengenceSpeedEvil: yeah, I wouldnt use it if it needed software. the fact that once hacked it works like most high end scanning pens, raw output as ascii keycodes, makes it useful. its just more picky about the speed and distance than a real pen04:22
jabiswondering could I hijack power button click event and prevent the default action while app has focus -.-04:23
jabisI'd like to hook up the camera actions zoom in -> vol up zoom out -> vol down and powerbutton to fire the shot - this fever isn't accommodating my ponderings04:24
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Avengencealmost forgot to paste that04:36
SpeedEvilOh - thanks04:36
SpeedEvilI was about to google that04:37
SpeedEvilIs that the USB variant?04:37
Avengencedidnt know they made one04:38
SpeedEvilI know there was one04:38
SpeedEvilI have the ps2 though04:38
Avengenceevery cuecat I saw plugs into ps/2 keyboard04:38
SpeedEvilthat makes it output ascii too?04:38
Avengencebasically, its cutting the serial eeprom that holds the serial number, and it was doing some stupid hash or something that ends up outputting unmolested data when theres no serial added in04:39
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Sazpaimon[20:41] <ZogG_laptop> Sazpaimon, hmm i see your twitter, gonna stalk you04:52
Sazpaimonnot mine04:52
Sazpaimonsomeone made a twitter account in my name to harrass me04:52
Sazpaimonbecause they thought I was cracking symbian applications04:52
Sazpaimonwhen I didn't react, they didnt bother to do anything about it04:53
ZogG_laptopSazpaimon: lol04:55
ZogG_laptopanyone here with tumblr?04:55
AvengenceSpeedEvil: that site doesnt match the hack in my cuecat05:02
AvengenceSpeedEvil: I hadnt read it all before I pasted the link. now I'm seeing that it says that wire cut only removes the serial but doesnt give claen output. instead, it links to anoter page that says to put +5 to a pin to decrypt output05:03
Avengencebut neither of those are waht I did to mine. its been well opver a decade so I just took the case off mine. I have the model with 2 screws, very early unit. I chopped a pin off the microprocessor, didnt touch the serial eeprom. I don't know what page I got this hack from, but its easier than the others05:04
SpeedEvilI guess I need to do some digging. :)05:06
Avengencewaht rev do you have?05:07
Avengenceit looks lke the end effect was I disconnected the crystal from one pin but not another, so maybe its throwing off some comminucations. obviously the micro is runnign with the crystal on one pin, if the micro wasnt running at all it'd output nothing05:09
Avengenceif its the same rev, disconnect pin 10 of the hyundai chip05:10
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Sazpaimonokay so I think its probably the version of nokia suite that I have thats broken05:13
Sazpaimonbecause I found my old E71 which is in pieces and managed to get it to boot05:13
Sazpaimonand nokia suite is doing the same goddamn thing05:13
SpeedEvilAvengence: I mean also physical05:14
SpeedEvil- I need to find exactly where it is.05:14
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Avengenceohh. I didnt have mine plugged in by I knew exactly which drawer of which file cabinet its in. drawe with working keyboards, under the mice with the ps/2 extension cables should be the cuecat and all keyboard adapter plugs. bingo, organization pays off05:16
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Sazpaimonoh awesome05:26
Sazpaimonnokia suite converts legacy symbian smses to conversations05:26
Sazpaimonthat'll make it easier to import into the N905:27
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RST38hSo, PR1.3?05:53
Sazpaimonyeah its a thing05:55
RST38hWill N950 work?05:55
Sazpaimonthere's no PR1.3 OCF for N95005:55
Sazpaimonive heard you can change your repository to a PR1.3 N9 repository and update packages there05:56
Sazpaimonbut avoid the mp-001-harmattan-pr package05:56
Sazpaimonit will brick your phone05:56
Sazpaimonirrevocably brick it05:56
Sazpaimonbecause it will set your firmware revision internally to PR1.3, and there'd be then no way to reflash it since there's no PR1.3 flash image to use05:57
itsnotabigtruckalso more importantly, it'll set the first version component to 4005:58
itsnotabigtruckn950 versions start with single digit numbers05:59
itsnotabigtruckso the pr1.3 would be more like 4 or 505:59
itsnotabigtruck= no way to 'downgrade' to the real pr1.3 release05:59
Sazpaimonyou could, I guess, switch to open mode, then upgrade the pr package05:59
Sazpaimonthat way sw-cert wont get written to05:59
Sazpaimonbut then neither will the kernel05:59
Sazpaimonbut you can flash that seperately I guess06:00
RST38hso basically remaining n950 users are left in the cold?06:00
Sazpaimonyou guys should have known that when you didnt get PR1.2 final06:01
Sazpaimonjust the beta06:01
Sazpaimonyou get what you paid for In guess06:01
Sazpaimonitsnotabigtruck, im almost positive nokia suite is to blame for this not backing up thing06:02
Sazpaimoni dug out the logic board of my E71 (all thats left of it), and plugged it in, and managed to get nokia suite to detect it06:02
Sazpaimonbackup still gave the same message06:03
itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon: lame :(06:03
SazpaimonE71, now there's a phone that shows true nokia craftsmanship06:04
Sazpaimonthis fucker's been to hell and back and it still works06:04
itsnotabigtruckyeah, i have one too06:04
itsnotabigtruckdefinitely a solid piece of hardware06:04
itsnotabigtruckthough the iphone started to totally show nokia up soon after the e71 launched06:05
Sazpaimonon the bright side, nokia suite was able to import my smses from the phone and convert them into conversations06:05
itsnotabigtruckand nokia's product line took a dive right after the e7106:05
Sazpaimonso I can sync them easily to the N9 now06:05
itsnotabigtrucke.g. a zillion successively worse clones of the e7106:05
Sazpaimon(S60 doesnt support threaded SMS)06:05
Sazpaimonitsnotabigtruck, i dont know, E72 and E73 were allright06:06
Sazpaimoni almost got an E73, it was a tossup between that and an N90006:06
itsnotabigtruckthe e72 is pretty ugly, and both of those came out way after symbian stopped cutting it06:07
Sazpaimonthats true, and mostly why I decided to go with the N90006:07
Sazpaimonoka so06:08
Sazpaimonon my N9, can I just edit meta.db and remove all the old smses from the E71 that didnt import properly the first time?06:08
Sazpaimonor will that not fly06:09
itsnotabigtruckprobably not a good idea to edit it with a text editor :p06:09
itsnotabigtruckcan't you delete them through nokia suite or the messages app06:09
SazpaimonI mean with sqlite306:09
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Sazpaimonthough I cant figur eout what table theyre in06:15
Sazpaimonthere's like 400 of themn06:15
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Sazpaimonapparently my E71 started deleting my old sent messages06:27
Sazpaimonthey only go back to october 201006:27
Sazpaimonmy recieveds go back further06:27
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Sazpaimonlike august 200906:27
Sazpaimonhmm, maybe I have an old backup somewhere06:27
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Sazpaimoni mean I had to have made backups when I flashed my E71 with new firmware since it didnt have OTA07:01
Sazpaimonbut I cant find them on my old pc suite install07:01
Sazpaimonhm, maybe on my old laptop hard drive07:01
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Corsacok, I'm not completely sure what the pr1.3 changed08:47
Corsacdidn't see anything new/different, tbh08:47
Corsacand the mail download is not fixed08:47
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vladestis there is 1.3 for n950?09:05
Arievladest: no09:06
vladestand planned to be?09:06
CorsacI'm unsure if I'm fully update though, accuweather won't install because of dependencies issue09:06
ArieCorsac: use Meecast09:07
Corsacthat won't fix the underlying problem09:07
Corsac(and does Meecast have a transparent background in event view now?)09:07
Arieyes, that was fixed in PR1.309:08
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Corsacha so it was not a Meecast/Accuweather issue but an event view one?09:08
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Corsacfwiw, wxapp-restore prevents the upgrade of wxapp (pff)09:13
Arieisn't that great?09:14
CorsacArie: hem, but I was upgraded (except wxapp) and I still had a non transparent background on event view09:14
Corsacthen after the wxapp upgrade it's fixed09:14
Arieit's fron p09:15
Corsacso maybe the fix is still in accuweather, but will benefit to meecast09:15
Arieits from pr1.309:15
Ariethe commit was in the logs in mid feb09:15
Corsachmhm, and shouldn't I have a messageserver running when checking mails?!09:17
Ariei think so09:17
Ariedoes it not work?09:18
Corsacmail client doesn't download anything09:18
Ariefenix isn't working, weird09:18
Arieremove your accounts and reinstall them09:18
Corsacalready done it09:18
Corsac[ 1316.600006] init: xsession/messageserver respawning too fast, stopped09:19
Corsacthat doesn't look very good09:19
Ariehmmm, weird09:19
Ariei have no idea how to deal with that09:19
CorsacI'll enable logging for message server and check09:21
Ariepersonally pr1.3 is a major let down09:23
Corsacnew issues?09:23
Arieno, just majorly underwhelming09:23
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itsnotabigtruckCorsac: there's damned close to zero user visible changes09:26
itsnotabigtruckwith all the hype built up for this, no wonder people are underwhelmed09:26
Arieyes, it has no major changes that I can see09:27
Ariewhich is sad09:27
itsnotabigtruckdid you get inception 0.2 installed? corsac^09:27
itsnotabigtruckdon't forget the beep mode icon :p09:27
Arieitsnotabigtruck: like that changes my usage or something?09:27
itsnotabigtruckCorsac: because everyone should do so :p09:28
Arieitsnotabigtruck: god no I couldn't live with that :p09:28
Corsacitsnotabigtruck: I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled with your insistance about inception09:28
ArieCorsac: why, inception is awesome09:28
itsnotabigtruckCorsac: a) more users = better, b) more users of inception = more potential users for anything built with inception09:29
itsnotabigtruck= more incentive to build things that take advantage of inception09:29
itsnotabigtruck= more incentive to build things that go outside the box09:29
Corsacwell, maybe, but I have no use to it09:29
itsnotabigtruckwhich is important when most people build things that are decidedly inside the box09:29
ArieCorsac: I heavily use it :)09:30
itsnotabigtruckalso if you use the terminal ever you probably at least have some use for it09:30
itsnotabigtruckif only because the new ariadne feature is way more convenient than devel-su09:31
CorsacI don't do much thing as root09:31
Corsaclike, pretty nothing09:31
ArieCorsac: i just shed a tear for you :p09:32
CorsacI actually use my phone as phone, calendar, mail (well, if it worked), maps¸ browser…09:32
Corsacit's a pretty standard, user-like usage :)09:32
Corsachmhm, syslog doesn't have anymore the messageserver logs, but it's still not started09:32
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denismCorsac: the same for me, I have no enabled dev mode/allowed 3rd party apps at all, 'bt terminal' is enough if needed.09:34
Corsacbt terminal?09:34
denismbtinput terminal - terminal available from Ovi Store09:35
Corsacmhmh, running strace messageserver, it seems that it spend its time removing file in .qmf/tmp/09:35
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Corsac[4605] Jul 04 08:37:50 [Warning] Encrypted connect warnings: "'The root certificate of the certificate chain is self-signed, and untrusted'"09:38
* Corsac sighs09:38
Arielol, bt-terminal = bluetooth terminal09:38
Corsacok, seems that removing those thousand of tiny files in .qmf/tmp fixed the issue somehow09:39
Corsacat least running messageserver manually seems to work09:39
Corsacwill try a reboot09:39
Corsachmmh, but still, trying to change folder leads to fenix crash09:42
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Corsacmaybe that's linked to memailsettings10:03
Ariecould be10:04
Arieuninstall it and see if it makes a diff10:04
rantomIs it just me or has Store gone terribly wrong after PR 1.3 update?10:06
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phakorantom: like taking ages for showing things and not showing comments at all? That's independent from PR1.310:07
rantomI, for one, am having continuous issues with even accessing any content from it, so even downloading apps/checking reviews has become very frustrating10:07
rantomphako: yes10:07
phakorantom: nah, was like that last week here already10:07
denismrantom: The same with PR1.2 at least for me10:07
rantom*sigh* thought so. Good job on the Q&A Nokia.10:07
rantomYeah, I noticed issues during PR 1.2 too too but not as bad as with 1.310:08
rantomServers going down or app itself malfunctioning?10:08
denismit depends to something, perhaps to the server on other side or something like that. Some is better (but still quite bad), some - worse10:08
rantomIt's a conspiracy to get us to buy the next Windows Phones from Nokia! ;(10:09
phakono, you shall buy the current one and then buy the next one as well to get wp810:09
rantomBut in all seriousness, annoying behavior from Store. Can't really do anything about it than wait that Nokia, possibly, fixes it10:10
Arieor reflash and try again?10:11
denismas I know, the responsible deprtament is not in Finland - so there are some chances that it will be fixed in July :)10:11
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rantomArie: Would do that if it was my N950 in case. This is my primary phone, N9, which I want to keep the warranty ongoing so not going to do that. Thanks though for suggesting10:12
hiemanshufinaland is closed in July? :P10:12
rantomThe entire country? :D10:12
hiemanshuThe entire month? :DD10:12
phakomore or less, yes10:12
rantomNo, its not10:12
phakoat least corporate finland ;)10:12
rantomBut yeah, bad timing since there's more or less holidays going on10:12
Arierantom: flashing doesn't void your warranty... especially if you have an N95010:12
rantomArie: read again10:13
hiemanshuah damn, that explains why I haven't got a reply from DDP yet10:13
rantomArie: And it DOES void warranty10:13
japhwhat warranty10:13
Arierantom: My N9 was flashed over 100x + and I sent it for warranty repair with no issues10:13
itsnotabigtruckno, flashing doesn't void the warranty10:13
itsnotabigtruckdon't spread fud10:13
rantomjaph: Warranty in N910:13
itsnotabigtruckyes, it displays a warning that you *could* void your warranty10:14
itsnotabigtruckthat's if you use flasher to do something stupid10:14
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rantomThat's what I meant10:14
Arierantom: flashing N9 with open mode does that10:14
itsnotabigtruckother than simply flashing the nokia image10:14
rantomAlright, just a bit of confusion then10:14
ArieVenemo: how's battery life on pr1.3?10:14
rantomBut _clearing_ the device, as far as I know, does _not_ affect warranty10:15
itsnotabigtruckdon't use the reset function from the settings menu10:15
rantomRead: clearing=Select from Settings: Reset - Clear device10:15
hiemanshurantom: flashing doesn't affect warranty either, since well it could have been done by a nokia center too10:15
rzrrantom, hi have you answered ?10:15
itsnotabigtruckit's well known to fubar your device and generally make it so you do need to flash it10:15
denismrantom: clearing the device almost does not do anything on rootfs10:15
VenemoArie: dunno yet10:15
itsnotabigtruckalso the clear function isn't comprehensive or secure10:15
rantomrzr: no and not going10:15
itsnotabigtruckso it's not really good for anything10:15
ArieVenemo: keep me updated, im watching mine closely too10:16
rzrrantom, ok can i list you on that page too ?10:16
denism itsnotabigtruck: clear function _is_ secure. it is using Secure MMC erasing10:16
rantomrzr: no10:16
rzrok no problem10:16
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itsnotabigtruckdenism: doesn't it run a bunch of clean up scripts, not erase anything10:16
Arierantom: is that you estel?10:16
itsnotabigtruckbesides, since it's not comprehensive, it can't be secure10:16
rantomArie: no10:17
Arierantom: ok :)10:17
denismitsnotabigtruck:  check /etc/init/wipe- something. So that bunch of scripts is just the 1st step10:17
rzrhe is doctor no :)10:17
itsnotabigtruckwell anyway, rantom: try flashing it10:17
itsnotabigtruckjust do the main image10:17
rantomitsnotabigtruck: I'll skip that but thanks for all info, everyone10:17
itsnotabigtruckbe advised that'll take out your apps and settings10:18
rantomNot really interested to flash my primary phone10:18
itsnotabigtruckand your angry birds save10:18
rantomIt either works or it doesn't10:18
rantomI have my N900's for flashing images :)10:18
itsnotabigtruckit's really hard to screw up your n9 by flashing10:18
rantomEven so10:18
itsnotabigtruckif there's a flashing problem, usually that's evidence of an underlying hardware problem10:18
denismyes, some of those /etc/osso-cud-scripts/ are even not executable, rootfs is not cleaned, so it is really better to reflash the device instead of Settings - Reset - 'Clear device' :)10:18
itsnotabigtruckmost common flash errors are resolvable by simply flashing again10:19
rantomAnd that warning does not help to convince me flashing it, I find extremely annoying even when using the N95010:19
rantomSlows quite a bit the booting progress10:19
CorsacArie: not, doesn't change anything10:19
rantomDon't want that to my N910:19
Arierantom: then don't complain about store working :p10:19
rantomArie: I wouldn't say complain, I was just asking a general opinion about it10:19
rantomBut if you want to interprent that as a complaint then go ahead10:20
Arierantom: I know, I'm just messing with you10:20
itsnotabigtruckhaving to flash in so many circumstances is definitely less than ideal, but using an n9 definitely means phoning on the edge10:20
itsnotabigtrucksince it never really had a chance to be fully baked10:20
rantomitsnotabigtruck: I'd buy an Android-device if it'd want to flash my primary phone ;)10:20
infobotrantom meant: itsnotabigtruck: I'd buy an Android-device if I'd want to flash my primary phone ;)10:21
rantomBut yeah, I got all the info that I needed, thanks all10:21
rantomI'll just wait for now10:21
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rantomMight drop the N9 to Nokia Care later if I decide to have the screen fixed due to the screen issues (green tint, possibly, and some burning in when rotating when using web-browser)10:22
rantomAnd the glass is a bit sharp on the right side, meaning that it is a bit upper than it should be10:22
rantomBut yeah, that's all folks10:23
itsnotabigtruckbtw if you bring your phone in to nokia care for a software problem, they'll just flash it10:23
itsnotabigtruckwith the exact same results as if you do it at home10:23
itsnotabigtruckexcept you have to wait a few weeks and they scratch up your phone :p10:23
Arieahahahahahahha, gotta love Nokia care10:23
rantomThat's why I'm going for hardware problems10:23
itsnotabigtruckfair enough10:23
rantomIf they flash it I'll have to do a bit of talking, not going to accept that I'd have the warning about warranty being void in my N910:23
Arieah oo10:24
itsnotabigtruckrantom: if you're talking about the disclaimer splash screen10:24
itsnotabigtruckthat only appears if you go into open mode10:24
rantomitsnotabigtruck: ah, right10:25
itsnotabigtruckif you do a full firmware flash that puts you into normal mode10:25
itsnotabigtruckregardless of what you were in before10:25
rantomAnd that's what they do?10:25
itsnotabigtruckyeah, they use a slightly different software program, but the exact same firmware images10:25
* rantom is a bit slow now, coffee hasn't been drained properly yet10:25
itsnotabigtrucknavifirm downloads firmware images from the same place nokia care shops get them from10:25
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rantomAlright, so no warranty disclaimer, for what I know, good :)10:26
itsnotabigtruckand there's no real need for open mode unless you want to use nitdroid10:26
itsnotabigtruckwhich isn't compatible with pr1.3 yet, so...10:26
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rantomI'd assume that goes to restoring with Nokia Link too10:26
itsnotabigtruckmight as well stay in open mode and toss on inception 0.210:26
itsnotabigtruckoh, and nokia link doesn't back up sms messages10:26
itsnotabigtruckkeep that in mind10:26
rantomI did try inception quickly in my N95010:26
rantomitsnotabigtruck: Ok, thanks, I don't care though about those10:27
itsnotabigtrucktry ariadne in the new version10:27
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itsnotabigtruckit's like sudo10:27
itsnotabigtruckbut for inception10:27
rantomAh, ok10:27
rantomMight try if I have to re-flash the N95010:27
Arierantom: I'm wondering which device program you got your N950 from10:27
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itsnotabigtruckoh, and "might as well stay in open mode" ---> normal mode10:27
rantomArie: keep wondering10:28
Arierantom: at this point it's safe to assume you bought it with an answer like that10:29
rantomArie: and that's wrong10:29
rantomI got it from Nokia, if you really must know10:29
Arieyes as did i10:29
Arieim just wondering the reason10:29
Ariethank you sir :)10:30
rantomNot really your business10:30
rantomNo offense meant10:30
Arienone taken10:30
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rantomArie: Actually, I'll say this much: I've got from Nokia "thank you for your contribution", so that'd sum it up10:32
Arie rantom: I appreciate your sharing10:33
rantomBut that's about it ->10:33
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Arierantom: Works for me10:33
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Arierantom: personally I prefer the N9, the 950 is nice but still massively beta10:35
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rantomYeah, same10:39
rantomThat's one of the reasons why I bought N910:39
Ariei agree10:39
Ariewas pr1.3 as much of a let down to you as it was to me?10:39
rantomI didn't really expect anything from it so no10:40
rantomI'd like to have CardDAV-supported but that's about it and not a big deal for me10:40
rantomPro-tip: ignore rumours10:40
Ariei was hoping for a difference in user experience :)10:40
rantomYou'll just get disappointed10:40
Ariethere was none10:40
rantomOne can always hope then..10:40
Ariei agree with the rumours bit10:41
Ariealso at this point since sotiris left nokia, it's clear that the N9 lifecycle is done10:41
rantomWhat I'd really want to know, related a bit more to the original topic, is if there's going to be 1.3 for N950? I'm though guessing that either the N950 is not in Nokia's interest anymore or they're pushing 1.4beta, IF there'd ever be one (I'd guess not)10:42
rantomOf course, I'm not expecting anyone here to answer to that since some of you are under NDA10:43
denismrantom: I really do not think that it will be. No any reasons anymore.10:43
ArieNope not happening10:43
Arieand I am under an NDA ;)10:44
Ariei can say with certainty it's done10:44
rantomThought as much10:44
Ariepr1.2 is as far as the N950 goes10:44
Arienow it's up to the community to make it happen10:44
rantomAnd 1.3 as far as the N9 goes, probably10:45
rantomArie: A very small community, if talking about N950-owners10:45
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denismrantom: N950-_only_ owners :)10:46
Arieyes I am10:46
Ariethere's maybe 400 of us worldwide, tops if that10:46
Arieeven i wouldn't waste resources on that10:46
rantomBut yeah, good that that's settled. Not in my main interest anyway anymore, Harmattan on N950 that is, I'm more or less interested in Nemo Mobile10:47
denismArie: it would be nice if Nokia will honor its dev. device and will replace N950s to N910:47
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Ariedenism: why?10:48
rantomThat'd be a downgrade, if you ask me10:48
Ariei have both10:48
rantomSo do I10:48
Ariemost of us received both10:48
rantomI'd never, for now, replace my N950 with N910:48
Arieor bought our N9's10:48
Arieand why would it be a downgrade?10:48
denismI have also both, yes :) like an option to upgrade to PR1.310:48
Ariei see it as an upgrade10:49
Arienot a downgrade10:49
rantomI got my N950 from the contributions earlier and bought the N910:49
denismInteresting - is there a special SDK for PR1.3? Most probably no, so there should no be even such PR1.3 for N95010:49
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Ariei get lps, nfc, and a more complete product10:49
Ariehow is it a downgrade?10:49
rantomArie: well, to me it is. Screen would go smaller in size and I'd lose the keyboard10:49
Arielps = low power screen10:49
rantomWell that's not really, IMO, a good reason to "upgrade" N950 to only N910:50
Ariethe keyboard is lackluster at best and the screwn is the same size isn't i?10:50
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rantomScreen is over 4", IIRC, in N95010:50
rantomN9 is 3,9", IIRC10:50
denismrantom: for official images - keyboard is almost unusable, as the main screen is mostly portrait locked10:50
rantomdenism: Maybe so but in my use I'd rather use the hardware keyboard10:51
Venemo_N9rantom, N9 is 3.5", N950 is 4.0"10:51
Ariei don't agree with upgrading its more like complementary10:51
rantomVenemo_N9: I'm pretty sure N9 is more than 3.5"10:51
ArieVenemo_N9: N9 is 3.9"10:51
rantomI'll check, moment10:52
denismanyway, I do not like N950 because I have used more than 5 of them, and every device's display got a lot of dead pixels on bottom.10:52
rantomYeah, 3.9"10:52
rantomAnd I like the metallic feel that the N950 has :)10:53
Ariedenism: never noticed that10:53
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Arie rantom: i agree, i love the metallic feel10:53
rantomIn reception/call/phone-call quality N9 wins, hands down10:53
denismArie: you are lucky :( Perhaps my fingers are 'special', do not know :(10:53
Venemo_N9yes it's 3.9"10:53
Venemo_N9soory I mistyped it10:53
rantomdenism: I have backlight bleed in my N95010:54
Venemo_N9Arie, rantom ^10:54
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rantomVenemo_N9: Yeah, thanks10:54
rantomdenism: But I don't want to go to Nokia to have it swapped for another unit, not really worth it, since it's not my primary device10:55
rantomIf they'd even swap it10:55
rantomIn short: not worth the trouble to swap it to another one10:55
Venemo_N9they would yes10:55
Arieif it was received from an official channel yes10:55
Arieif not, no10:55
rantomWell it was received from Nokia so10:56
Arieyou're good :)10:56
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rantomThough if Elop would see me he'd probably swap it to Lumia 900...10:56
rantom"Here, have another device that has an OS that won't be upgraded more than once for _sure_"10:57
Ariepersonally if the N950 has a super amoled, nfc, an lps, an fmtx, and was clockes at 1.3ghz, i'd keep that for at least 3-5 years10:57
rantomYeah, I'd take that deal any day of the week... /sarcasm10:57
rantomArie: You're living in an alternative dimension10:58
Arieim just stating what it lacks :)10:58
Arieeverything else about it is nothing short of awesome10:58
rantomWell I do agree with the NFC and LPS but I'd like to have work to be done with the keyboard, it's not that great in Harmattan. I'd more or less be interested in seeing Harmattan being more actively updated10:59
rantomNone of those are really going to happen10:59
macmaNhow safe is it to change the n9 repo 005 -> 00110:59
Arierantom: you mean hwkb?10:59
rantomArie: Yes10:59
AriemacmaN: safe enough10:59
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Arieah what do you mean by more work done on it then?11:00
rantomAnd since we're talking about dev-device I'd like to see some sort of listing for repositories11:00
rantomIf N950 would go to production as end-user device I'd care less abour repositories11:00
Arierantom: i know, it's massively confusing as it is11:00
rantomOff-topic: is there even a good alternative to N9 with LPS? All I can think of would be E711:02
ArieUhhh, there is no alternative to n911:02
Ariei have the pureview 808 and symbian makes me cringe11:02
rantomI'd buy the 808 only for the camera11:02
rantomAnd I do mean _ONLY_ for the camera11:03
Ariei agree with that sentiment11:03
Ariethat's all it's really worth11:03
rantomI don't even read, for now, reviews about it considering the OS11:03
Ariei wish there was a pureview meego device, that would have shut people up for a long time11:03
rantomWe already know Symbian is not that good, no need to beat the dead horse anymore11:03
Arieevert review complains about the os and praises the camera11:04
rantomOne can wish :P11:04
Arieif i wish hard enough, it may happen :p11:04
Venemo_N9macmaN, bricked my N9 yesterday11:04
Venemo_N9LOTS of conflicting packagea11:04
rantomUgh, that reminds me of the AccuWeather that was shipped with Pr 1.3...11:05
ArieVenemo_N9: really? so there are major differences between pr001-pr005?11:05
Arieaccuweather sucks, install meecast11:05
rantomCouldn't get it installed since Restore AccuWeather and AccuWeather are not the same apps, AFAIK11:05
rantomArie: I did11:05
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Arieuh, then im confused what do you mean venemo11:06
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rantomI don't like though the fact that you need to enable Installing from unknown sources to install the Feeds-view icon11:06
Venemo_N9but there are packages whose name ends with 005, and they conflict with those whose name ends with 001, and apt can not figure out what to do about it11:06
rantomSounds kind of shady to me11:06
rantomAnd I don't even know how it keeps the weather in that icon updated, since I have internet-connection off11:07
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ArieVenemo_N9: ah ok thank you for the explanation11:08
denismthere might be a difference in some low level files, like different cellular modem firmware.11:08
Ariethat is what i thought too11:08
Ariehence why i wanna flash pr001 on my n9 vs 00511:09
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vladestguys, any chance to get pr 1.3 on n950?11:13
denismby - seems PR1.3 is really useful :)11:13
Arievladest: No11:14
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macmaNchanged my 005 -> 001. new app versions appear, PR1.3 still doesnt. where does that come from i wonder.11:15
denismmacmaN: there is no newer mp-harmattan-...-005 on 001 repository11:15
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macmaNi don't want to reflash the image anymore, too slow to get everything back11:16
Ariejust use navifirm11:16
Arieand reflash11:16
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macmaNok so anyway. i guess there isnt a way to force this :/11:17
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Arieyup, no need11:17
Corsacany idea how to debug a fenix segfault? (I can't attach to a running process and running from terminal, the process detach itself11:24
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cityLightscan anyone please help me remove remove previous email accounts?11:57
cityLightsI remove an account then re-define it, yet it doesnt sync11:58
cityLightsI am seeking the command to remove it from the sqlite11:58
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AvengencecityLights: when you remove the accounts, try removing the .qmf folder as well (its the mail cache dir) and reboot your phone. then add new accounts12:16
cityLightslet me test this12:16
Avengenceyou dont always need to remove the cache dir, but you definitely need to reboot after removing accounts and before adding new if you are having the problem that no email is flowing in12:17
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cityLightsAvengence: 1. is this a known bug? 2. where is the .qmf folder?12:20
AvengenceI'd say it's known. it's happened to me and others. usually a gmail account acting up (always in my case and some have confirmed that to me) and just removing that one can be enough to fix the rest12:22
Avengencebasically, some corruption causes the messageserver to not start at boot. you can go run it, but it'll eventually get sick and die, possibly usaing 100% cpu then, so better to clean the mess12:23
Avengencewith th gmail account deleted, reboot and test other, if they work, good. if not, then remove qmf dir and reboot again, then it should be working and its safe to add back the gmail account12:24
Avengencein your home folder on the phone there is the .qmf directory for mail cache. if you completely remove it, the startup scripts will remake it on next boot so you have a fresh start, but then you have to redownload messages on all accounts, hence the suggestion to try just removing the gmail account first (should clean up everything to do with the account)12:25
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cityLightsregarding the last update I got yesterday, where can I find its change log?12:36
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denismcityLights: official one:
radiofreequality change log entry there12:43
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cityLightsis it just one guy in nokia maintaining the n9?12:44
Avengencethe reason it doesnt work when you don't at least reboot with the acci like how the public bugzilla closed so we cant even see what tickets are closed now since thats only on the internal bug tracker12:45
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Lava_Crofthahaha 1.3 changelog12:53
Lava_Croftlooks like an Apple changelog12:53
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AvengenceLava_Croft: it's slightly better than that. it doesn't just say "This is awesome. BOOM"12:56
Lava_Croftit has 5x more improvements than the usual 200 improvements that apple offers12:57
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b00^wkclock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME    <-- failes to compile on my harmattan12:59
b00^wkclock_realtime, should be defined for all implementations, what am I missing ?12:59
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infobotrumour has it, update is
infobotchangelog is probably dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile whatever.deb | tar xOf - '*changelog.Debian.gz' | gzip -d | less13:56
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fluxso, any severe regressions with the new release?14:37
ZogG_laptopdon't see14:38
ZogG_laptopwhat is pitty that AFAIK not all bug fixes where merged14:38
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ZogG_laptopi mean from what i read before 1.3 and after i heard from few nokians "that was fixed in internal" and "do not know if they inculuded it"14:39
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marsjewhat if Nokia Link does work to make a back, can I do it with scp, and if yes, what directories should I copy?14:44
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Corsacand as we weren't really able to report any bug in pr1.2, some of them are not fixed14:50
heymastermeego on raspberry pi?14:55
jonnimeego maybe, harmattan no.14:55
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heymasterjonni: thanks don't own any harmattan device. just got raspberry pi14:56
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jonniheymaster: with pi you most likely just want to use qt5 and not meego :)15:03
ZogG_laptopoh, now i got what does twitter's timeline means15:05
heymasterjonni: any possibility to test harmattan app on Pi (it's ARM, harmattan emulator is so slow) ? :-)15:06
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jonniheymaster: not easily, there doesnt exist qt4.7.4 port to pi, only qt5 version.15:08
jonnibut yes in theory you can make qt5 qml app which is almost like harmattan app, but you need to rename the imports15:09
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heymasterjonni: thanks. I will stick with harmattan emulator15:10
ZogG_laptopok, so i have listview in qml. and i parse json reply from server. the reply has array of posts and i apply them one by one and post, but the problem is that posts may be different and may have different data, for example photo post has img url, while others do not. and the problem here is that i append them all together and sometimes it has that data and sometimes it doesn't and when it doesn't it breaks the whole thing when appending ( i assume15:10
ZogG_laptopheymaster: you may try mer + some gui if there is there for Pi15:11
ZogG_laptopheymaster: btw where did you buy it?15:11
heymasterZogG_laptop: got from RS delivers15:12
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jonniheymaster: and depending on your graphis card, you might get a bit faster experience if you switch from sw rending to opengl in the emulator (its a qt creator setting).15:12
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pajonni, are you still in nokia?15:15
ZogG_laptopElleo: you got popular15:16
ZogG_laptoppa: afaik he is but afaik not meego related stuff15:16
jonnipa: still for 2 months or so.15:16
jonniI'm doing Qt releated stuff and not harmattan :)15:17
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ZogG_laptopjonni: do you have ideas to my prev question or i was not clear (as it's hard to explain =\ )15:22
jonnididnt understand the question, I would suggest #qt-qml channel for that.15:22
shanttugreetings. dist-upgraded to pr 1.3 using terminal and now (after reboot) there's a lot of stuff to be autoremoved. How do i know it's safe to remove them?
jonnishanttu: that will brick your devide, you shouldnt have used dist-upgrade15:25
pajonni, but will they kick you out, or you quit on your own?15:26
shanttujonni, hmm. Had some  problems and followed someone's advice. Any suggestions how to continue?15:26
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pai mean, unless they are really shutting down Qt too, why would they fire you?15:27
ZogG_laptopshanttu: i think i used dist-upgrade last time, did you do update and upgrade after reboot?15:31
shanttuZogG_laptop, good point. Not yet.15:31
shanttuWARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated! libgpg-error0 libpixman-1-015:33
ZogG_laptopshanttu: did you run update and than upgrade and that's the error?15:34
shanttuZogG_laptop, -u upgrade15:34
shanttuThat problem persisted bofore upgrading as well. Another error is with system-ui. I had restircted system-ui installed previously15:35
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ZogG_laptopshanttu: apt-get update && apt-get upgrade15:38
jonni1st you need to change system-ui from to, otherwise you will fail always (or do a full reflash with flasher).15:39
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jonni(and as inception is to blame for that you can get help to your problem in #inception).15:40
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shanttujonni, thanks. Didn't recognize it had to do with inception.15:42
shanttuZogG_laptop, thanks for your help15:42
jonniyep if you can any of the system packages replaced with /local, the upgrade to pr1.3 will fail, you first need to replace /locals back to non-locals before upgrade will continue.15:43
ZogG_laptopshanttu: be careful i had to reflash yesterday as i didn't follow itsnotabigtruck's instruction, but it's here in log if you want to see it15:44
shanttuwhat i did was remove inception before upgrading and installed 0.2  after reboot.15:45
infobotAll conversations are logged to Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.15:47
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shanttujabis, =)15:47
jabisshanttu, just check out yesterdays log and search with "ariadne accli -c tcb" to see the whole commotion :)15:50
ZogG_laptopshanttu: after changing file REHASH info, otherwise you'll brick device, check what itsnotabigtruck told me and what i did wrong!!!15:50
jabisyeh - avoid doing it wrong ^^15:51
ZogG_laptopjabis: =)15:53
jabiswell I didn't do anything wrong and I still had to reflash x) so whatever you do - be prepared for that option :D15:54
jabisnow I'm digging up logs - where did the update fail15:54
shanttujust doing something i don't like.. But will try my best to avoid flashing16:02
Ariejonni: how is inception responsible for shanttu's problem, i would assume its the unrestricted system ui that ends in +0m7 that people have been trying to get to work with +0m816:02
jonniArie: because /local has higher trust level than, if inception would install as, then upgrade to 0m8 would succeed just fine.16:04
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Ariei upgraded just fine to pr1.3 from 1.2 and i have a ton of stuff incepted though16:04
jonni(and inception could easily do it like that, but currently it incepts it in a way that upgrade fails916:05
jonninormal incepted stuff that doesnt replace system packages is fine, its just the system packages that will fail. Imho its just a design flaw of inception. If I would have done inception, then incepted packages would have been, and everything would co-exist just fine.16:06
Ariehave you suggested it to itsnotabigtruck?16:07
jabisI prolly would have added argument options :)16:07
jonniofcourse you can still change incepted packages to be by hand, but for most people its just too hard and will lead to malfs :)16:07
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jabisincept --as /my/awesome/package16:07
Ariehmmm, then why didn't he do it that way?16:08
jonniin my device I just solved it by allowing AEGIS_FIXED_ORIGIN export, that way I can install anything as or as, depending if I want to test ovi install or normal install.16:08
jabisitsnotabigtruck: ^ my suggestion16:08
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Arieso are you on open mode?16:09
jonniArie: I am not :)16:09
Ariejonni also did you ever figure out if changing zram (was it that) sped up the N9 more than a cgroups mod?16:10
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jonniArie: ah you mean ramzswap (aka compcache), disabling if gives your 256MB more ram, so yes in some cases it gives you more speen than cgroups mod, but if you have 20 apps open simultaneously then compcache helps16:12
jonniArie: so if you have less than 10, then disabling romzwap might be beneficial.16:12
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Ariecould you explain how to do it as i never have more than 2 or 3 apps open at a time :)16:13
shanttuwhat is that "ariadne" on "ariadne vi /var/lib/aegis/restok/restok.conf"?16:14
Arieariadne is the inception command16:14
shanttuso it's not enough to edit the file on my pc with gedit and replace it?16:15
Ariei dunno16:15
jonniArie: I have to dig the commands out of my logs... I'll get back to you on that.16:17
Arieok, I'd personally prefer that to this fastern9 thing16:18
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Lava_Croftfastern9 gives visions of similar N900 things16:23
ZogG_laptopArie: do you have tumblr?16:24
ZogG_laptopor anyone here?16:24
Ariei dont use tumblr, just gtalk and jabber16:25
Arieoh and twotter16:25
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ZogG_laptopArie: do you mind to try this?
ZogG_laptopArie: there is small refresh button at the botton panel to test data16:27
Ariesure ill test it16:27
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ZogG_laptopArie: it's just WIP of the WIP that shows only 2 types of posts and only my account (as i do not played with qoauth yet)16:29
Arieyou on jabber?16:29
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Arietell mw all this there :)16:30
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ZogG_laptopok ,though it's nothing exclusive, it was on github all the time, just now added img posts, and it shows only the last img btw =)16:31
shanttu-sigh- system-ui reinstalled. Thanks for your help.16:32
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azeemElleo: is broken with PR1.3 or does it just not cope with a reinstall after flashing?16:44
azeemit asks me which service I would like to connect to; tapping is a no-op (after it ponders a couple of seconds)16:44
azeemchoosing a custom server lets me connect, but on next start it shows me the welcome screen again16:45
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azeemhrm, if I quit that it proceeds to the main screen but keeps on spinning trying to load the feed16:51
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cityLightsAvengence: thanks - works16:53
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AvengencecityLights: no problem. that bug drove me nuts some months ago when I was in foreign country but has not happened again since I am home. you are 2nd person in 24hr period I gave sdame advice to for same problem, so it probably be in faq somewhere now16:57
Avengenceprobably SHOULD be I meant16:58
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jabiswhy not post it to the wiki then?17:13
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azeemhrm, the Store now seems to show "new in version xy" message, where those displayed with PR1.2 as well?17:19
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deram"Upgrade failed and this application is now unusable. Please try again or wait until new version of application has been released."17:21
deramnice that firefox shows update availlable, when in store it says don't upgrade, reinstall only17:21
alteregoYeah, I've had that for weeks.17:23
Avengencederam: i wondered about that. what is wrong with firefox that you have to uninstall and reinstall fresh rather than upgrade? everyth else can upgrade, so what the hell did they do wrong17:29
AvengenceI also hit a problem some time ago with firefox when they released two versions in the span of a few days17:29
ZogG_laptopAvengence: afaik it's some aegis things, but i might be wrong17:30
deramI have no idea..17:30
jonniits because they didnt know howto do proper prerm script :)17:30
AvengenceI got the update notice for the first, told it to download, the download failed part way through. when I retried later, the newer release was out, the old file was gone and every time I hit try again it failed. when I canceled the install and then wqent at it again, it showed the next version and worked17:30
jonnior proper preinst script, since you can basicly do everything there too17:31
ZogG_laptopAvengence: i just deleted firefox17:32
ZogG_laptopit's laggy17:32
ZogG_laptopi hope CSSU would bring new browser with tabs =P17:32
Avengencereasons to use firefox: download files of any type, copy text from webpages (ok, both can do that now), adblock17:32
deramfirefox is laggy, but only thing working with some flash infested websites17:33
Avengencethe browser tabs as windows works for me just fine, I find that better than how firefox handles it17:33
Avengencei guess teres also opera mini but I havent tried that. I never liked opera on any other platform17:34
deramI've seen opera in store, but since firefox is only one with flashplayer integration possible, why bother to install third browser to phone17:35
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AvengenceI didnt know flashplayer was only for firefox, but that's another strike against opera I guess?17:36
alteregoopera has quick and good HTML5 caps aiui17:36
Avengencehard to say, normally I only have flashplayer installed alongside flashblock (or let noscript do that)17:36
deramat least the flashplayer said firefox only in store when I installed it17:36
Avengenceso is it a benefit to have flashplayer when I can't control it? I don't think I've ever used it on the phone17:36
ZogG_laptopAvengence: its benefit to have it, but not mandatory and a lot don't use it even on desktop ☺17:38
* RST38h moos17:39
Avengencewhat I mean is, with the implications of having it installed, is it even worth the risk when I can't decide when it runs. hard to evaluate the impact as I'm already used to not having it17:39
ZogG_laptopAvengence: you can turn it off in firefox settings afaik or you can search for plugin for it to turn it on per item(the last one probably exists only for desktops)17:40
deramI only use firefox when I need flash enabled.. it's not my primary browser17:41
Avengenceexactly, for desktop i can use flashblock or noscript to control when it runs, but neither of those existed as extensions for firefox mobile when I checked. adblock was the only extension I could find mobile version of all the extensions I use on desktop firefox17:41
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AvengenceI open firefox to download files and for the rare page that looks broken in normal browser. I had used it more when the bundled browser couldnt copy text17:42
Avengencefor all the places to add it, I'd actually rather they had spent the time to add the ability to copy text from a message in the email app instead of adding that ability to the web browser17:44
jabisI used firefox to gain access to some https-sites that didn't have the right path in their certs17:44
jabisno way around it in stock browser17:44
Avengencefor desktop firefox I use both ManInTheMiddleMe and Perspectives to help work around the clusterfuck that is SSL certs17:45
KozziZogG_laptop: is this tumlr some kind of blog-service?17:46
Kozzilike blogspot17:47
AvengenceI still find problems like firefox simply won't give you the button to override if it doesnt like the cert for contnt in an iframe. bust that frame and suddenly the whole expandable section with the button appears17:47
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ZogG_laptopKozzi: kinda17:54
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zeqHi guys, over at #maemo we're porting Fennec Qt/XUL to fremantle, but geolocation isn't activating with  Has anybody tried it with the Harmattan Fennec build?18:09
zeqCan anybody try it?18:11
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KozziI went to with fennec18:16
Kozziand it asked me to share location, then pinpointed me to my current location18:16
Kozziis this what yu mean ?18:16
zeqKozzi: yes, thanks18:21
zeqKozzi: did you have to enable it somehow?18:22
zeqor does it just work?18:22
fluxkozzi, did it work with GPS accuracy?18:22
zeqthanks flux. Kozzi, that's really the question, is it using GPS?18:23
Kozzieh the gps icon showed up so I guess18:25
zeqthanks Kozzi, so we need to find out why it isn't happing on fremantle :S18:26
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Kozzithe website asked me twice before it get the koordiate18:27
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shanttuhave to flash anyhow =/. I'm following itsnotabigtruck's instructions. NaviFirmEx on Wine says "Failed to get SID from derver."18:30
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jabisshanttu: wget
jabisstraight link to the 001 code - all langs18:45
shanttujabis, awesome. Thanks18:46
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faenilany solution found for n950 owners?18:47
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SpeedEvilfaenil: Vodka. Plenty of Vodka.18:48
faenilnothing on the horizon?18:48
jabisif CSSU is the horizon, then yes x)18:49
jabisyes (maybe)18:50
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faeniloh come on nokia they're the same freaking phones xD18:50
faenilhow long can it take to release the fw for n950 too?18:51
faenilwe don't need testing :P18:51
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faeniljabis, no way to flash N9's image on the n950?19:04
jabisfaenil: don't own an N950 so no idea :|19:04
faenilhas anyone tried it?19:04
merlin1991faenil: m9 image contains different hw drivers19:05
merlin1991bound to fuck you up19:05
faenilup to that>?19:06
faenilwhat's so different?19:06
faenilchipset, cpu, gpu, all the same19:06
merlin1991I don't remember the details19:07
heymasterWhy Qemu harmattan emulator is so slow ? (I thought Android emulator was slow). I can't use it on Linux or OS X19:10
heymasterNVIDIA GeForce 320M graphics processor with 256 MB of memory shared with the system.19:11
jabiswasn't there at some point another harmattan emulator?19:11
heymaster8GB RAM19:11
jabisbut QEMU is really slow for me too19:11
jabisI test on the device19:11
heymasteri don't own device just thought is good to write for summer competition19:12
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JaffaZogG_laptop: Impressive howquickly itsnotabigtruck found the new hole19:16
Jaffaitsnotabigtruck: Would be interesting to know the [process y0u use.19:16
heymaster << how to close this app ? 1.2 version19:16
ElleoZogG_laptop: I got popular?19:18
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ZogG_laptopElleo: yes your video is announced on TMO =P19:20
ZogG_laptopand on meegoexperts blog19:21
ZogG_laptopJaffa: afaik he has it way before pr1.319:21
ZogG_laptopJaffa: and i think it's opensource, isn't it?19:21
ElleoZogG_laptop: aha, heh19:21
itsnotabigtruckJaffa: that's classified :P19:25
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: is pr 1.4 there?19:25
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: btw your app is opensource right?19:25
itsnotabigtruckuh huh19:25
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jabisitsnotabigtruck: you saw my little proposition? add --as flag for incept :) (to set the source) ex. incept --as /my/fabulous/package19:29
itsnotabigtruckjabis: yeah19:29
itsnotabigtruckit's not a bad idea19:29
itsnotabigtruckit also isn't very easy based on how inception currently works19:29
itsnotabigtruckpasiv sets aegis up so that any package with a particular 'local signature' gets put into the all-access source
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itsnotabigtruckincept puts that local signature on a package and installs it19:30
itsnotabigtruckso it can only do one source at a time19:31
jabisyeh - I dug up the pasiv script ^^19:31
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jabiswhat're the main differences with permissions in vs /local19:33
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: maybe you can change it after inception? i mean install it as /local and than change it back to original like commands you sent me?19:34
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Sniper_sweif i decide to flash 1.3 i dont need to flash whole emmc yes?19:51
jabiswrong chan19:54
ZogG_laptopSniper_swe: you can do it only for rootfs19:54
infobotfrom memory, flashing is
ZogG_laptopSniper_swe: ^19:55
ZogG_laptopSniper_swe: i would suggest img tht was posted here earlier19:55
Sniper_swei know how to but thanks:)  which img?:)19:55
Sniper_swei'm going to flash a 001 image instead of my 339 shit:p19:56
ZogG_laptopSniper_swe: the global 001 was posted here19:57
ZogG_laptop jabis : shanttu: wget19:57
Sniper_sweok. i usaully use northen eu 001:)19:57
jabisthe northern europe uses the same image - only emmc stuff are different afaik19:59
Sniper_sweseems when nitdroid installed i need to flash anyway i might aswell go for 00120:00
Lava_Croftjabis: yeah, same for france/benelux20:00
Lava_Croftonly emmc image differs (in name)20:00
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Lava_Croftidk about any actual differences20:01
jabiswell - it's the same DFL61_* in navifirm - so I doubt there are any :)20:01
ZogG_laptopniwakame: oh hey20:01
niwakameZogG_laptop: hi :) thought you'd be here sooner or later20:02
niwakamedidn't know my BNC was still connected :P20:02
heymasterOK thanks to all. Can't code app with Harmattan QEmu emulator so won't be in competition. Next time :)20:02
Sniper_sweanyone know of a good command to export list of apps20:03
ZogG_laptopniwakame: i'm always here20:04
ZogG_laptopniwakame: where did you get bnc?20:04
ZogG_laptopheymaster: why not?20:04
ZogG_laptopheymaster: need help? what app btw?20:04
niwakameZogG_laptop: shellfire, it's around 4 euros per 6 months20:05
niwakameZogG_laptop: think it's a German company, though20:05
niwakameYou have to deal with one now :P20:05
ZogG_laptopniwakame: ok i made some readme and todo20:06
heymasterZogG_laptop: Just can't use qemu .. don't know how to explain20:07
jabisSniper_swe: define export list of apps?20:07
ZogG_laptopniwakame: what i think is we need to finish and make pretty the posts types20:07
jabisSniper_swe: you mean installed packages on your phone?20:07
ZogG_laptopheymaster: not wokring or can't use?20:07
niwakameZogG_laptop: done anything with accounts-sso before?20:08
jabisSniper_swe: as root dpkg --get-selections > installed_pkgs.txt20:08
ZogG_laptopniwakame: not good idea20:10
ZogG_laptopniwakame: i made account for oauth2 but no idea how to get token from it, as all data it has is useless and probably we need to use itself to request and so on, but i have no idea how to do it20:11
niwakameZogG_laptop: I will check for tumblr API specs later. For accounts integration we can check the code for Wazapp20:12
niwakamecheck check :P20:13
Sniper_swethx all:)20:13
shanttuwtf cannot enable developer mode: can't install, installation package not found20:13
ZogG_laptopniwakame: the API is using oauth or xauth, second one is not avilable after pr1.2 and has no source. wazapp wouldn't help i think as it's other protocol20:13
ZogG_laptopniwakame: i made an account for imgur but it wouldn't work20:14
niwakameZogG_laptop: I'm just talking about accounts integration with harmattan in regards to Wazapp20:14
ZogG_laptopi requested frals few times to amke a dummy example, but he is busy probably20:14
ZogG_laptopniwakame: yeah i know20:15
niwakameZogG_laptop: I've looked at it yesterday, seemed pretty comprehensible. But yeah, I'm really missing a good documentation on this20:16
jabisshanttu ? after what? reflash? does your about information show the right kernel info?20:16
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niwakameZogG_laptop: all the wiki pages just read like "Use this XML file then *mumbles* and voila, it works!"20:16
ZogG_laptopniwakame: there are few accounts things and you mixing them20:17
ZogG_laptopniwakame: you are talking about webupload plugin for account20:17
ZogG_laptopi'm talking about provider plugin and xml20:17
niwakameUh thought I was talking about that, too20:18
heymasterZogG_laptop: ok.. what was my fault. I will work on app. If do something will write :)20:18
ZogG_laptopniwakame: we need to find the way to make requests using the provider20:19
niwakamelet's drop in a query20:19
shanttujabis, yes after reflash.20:20
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ZogG_laptopheymaster: you can always here people to test it btw20:20
shanttujabis, after restoring a backup developer mode 'switch' was on but i couldn't see terminal or sdk-tools so i tried re-enabling it20:23
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Sazpaimongotta freeze my old laptop hard drive to see if my old E71 backups are on it20:26
jabisshanttu: try whether the sshd is still running20:27
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jabisshanttu: something in your backup borked - since it's 1.2 and now you're on 1.320:28
shanttujabis, port closed. Could be.20:29
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jabisshanttu: nokia store should have the terminal up for download20:33
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jabissearch for meego-terminal20:33
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jabisversion I have installed is 0.2.2+0m620:35
kimjuthere is also "MTermite" in store as a free app. it seems to be newer version of the meego-terminal20:37
shanttui couldn't install fingerterm at all, but now  it's all good. very strange20:42
jabisshanttu: I'd reflash just to be on the safe side20:44
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jabisor before reflashing, I'd check out the logs20:46
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rantomI'm a bit lost. I've installed the Gtalk from Store and it works, in Talk, rather fine but for some reason I can't find a way to enter linebreak without copying reply from contact that had it already. Am I just missing something?22:01
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itsnotabigtruckrantom: installed the gtalk from store?22:13
itsnotabigtruckthe n9 firmware has gtalk support "out of the box"22:13
itsnotabigtruckthere's a package you can install from the store that enables video call support, which is for some reason disabled by default22:14
itsnotabigtruck(it doesn't actually install anything that facilitates video calling, just edits a config file)22:14
rantomitsnotabigtruck: Ok, I installed that one then. Anyway, question remains22:15
rantomI managed to do a linebreak in Pregrine but still not able to do that in the stock Conversations app, applies only, AFAIK, to Google Talk conversations22:15
rantomI do have two Send-buttons though. Using the linebreak-button from Swype just sends the message, too, so it acts as a Send, too22:16
godofwar424Need some help with a script, any linux users here got script experience?22:18
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chem|stgodofwar424: which kind?22:21
ZogG_laptopgodofwar424: little bit22:22
ZogG_laptopi failed to pass interview for new job as i was asked to make server that can get commands from telnet and return them thru telnet on bash though =)22:23
ZogG_laptopi made server but failed to return output =)22:24
ZogG_laptopand keep connection always alive22:25
godofwar424I posted it on tmo awhile ago but i don't think it caught attention with all the p1.3 stuff going on22:25
godofwar424Its a script to check if an application is running, and if not restart the app, so I can run it at a 30 minute interval and keep Wazapp alive when its crashed from loss of signal22:27
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chem|stgodofwar424: I know how but I wont support anyone supporting that shit...22:29
chem|stgodofwar424: you need to check for PID then restart if not there... tada...22:30
chem|stthat is how far you will get with me on wazapp...22:30
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godofwar424What if I change it for say the messaging app?? :D22:31
godofwar424Will you help me with that :P22:31
godofwar424Also its more for me wanting to learn how to get it done, I can't figure out what check I need to do to give me a 1 or 0 if that particular pid is running :s22:32
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rigoanybody a clue how I can find out why fenix is crashing when I touch on "folders"?22:48
rZr,127.783782# N26d21m28sE127d47m1s #   Did  #japan send a signal to #batman to fix their #powerplant ?22:51
DocScrutinizerchem|st: DUIH WUT?22:51
DocScrutinizerwhile ! <myapp; do :; done22:52
DocScrutinizerwhile ! <myapp>; do :; done22:52
DocScrutinizergiven the <myapp> throws error on unsolicited quit22:53
DocScrutinizerbut honestly you should use dsme for that22:54
DocScrutinizerit's made for that kinda stuff22:54
DocScrutinizeralso pretty usual autostart.desktop files will cause respawning of quit apps (at least on fremantle HD they did)22:55
DocScrutinizerbut then you never ever quit that app on purpose (I hat that setup for xchat, until it annoyed me)22:56
DocScrutinizers/hat /had /22:56
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: but then you never ever quit thad app on purpose (I hat that setup for xchat, until it annoyed me)22:56
godofwar424Is this all about my script Doc??22:57
DocScrutinizergodofwar424: yur concept is completely flawed, you don't check for pid's, as in unix there's the concept of child processes that automatically get monitored by parent process22:57
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godofwar424chem said to check for pids :(22:58
godofwar424I was originally using the program name22:58
DocScrutinizeryou don't check anything22:58
DocScrutinizershell is already doing that for you22:58
DocScrutinizerwhile ! <myapp>; do :; done22:59
DocScrutinizerwhile ! <myapp>; do echo "restarting myapp"; done22:59
godofwar424Just type that into a script replacing myapp with wazapp22:59
DocScrutinizeryou're free to do that23:00
godofwar424But will it work lol23:00
DocScrutinizerif you dunno, you better learn about shell scripts23:01
godofwar424Thats why I came here in the first place to ask for help23:02
godofwar424Right well that makes the app start23:03
niwakamegodofwar424: you've done research on shell scripting before?23:03
godofwar424how do I change that to while my app is NOT running it runs a command23:03
godofwar424Ive made like 1 or 2 shell scripts on my N90023:03
godofwar424but it was so long ago I have forgotten, also it wasn't for this kinda thing, I researched this but my attempts failed23:04
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DocScrutinizergodofwar424: (how do I change that...) depends on what you actually want to achieve23:05
tehdelyi'm gonna reflash my n9 with pr1.323:05
tehdelyand i've been running in open mode23:05
tehdelyif i want to flash it back into secure mode, i just need to make sure i get both firmware + emmc, right?23:05
alteregoYou don't need eMMC23:06
alteregoYou'll lose your data if you flash that.23:06
tehdelythat's alright, i want a clean flush :)23:06
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alteregoWell, flash everything then ;)23:06
tehdelyin any case, that _will_ take me out of open mode, right?23:06
tehdelyno more BSW when it starts up?23:06
godofwar424DocScrutinizer: I want to run this script once every 30 minutes to check if an app is still running, and if its not, I want it to restart that app23:06
DocScrutinizerso why would you want to wait 30min before restarting the app?23:07
godofwar424Nooo, I want to check it is running every 30 minutes23:07
itsnotabigtruckgodofwar424: there's no need to poll for it23:07
godofwar424the 30 minutes is secondary part23:07
itsnotabigtruckwhat DocScrutinizer is telling you to do is to run the program, wait for it to terminate, then run it again23:07
itsnotabigtruckin a loop23:07
DocScrutinizermoo itsnotabigtruck23:08
itsnotabigtruckthat way there's no delay in between terminations and restarts23:08
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godofwar424So what way is best for my outcome?23:09
DocScrutinizerwhile ! <myapp>; do echo "restarting myapp"; done23:09
Vromoth-N9Hi guys, is there any documentation on adding accounts to accounts?23:09
DocScrutinizerwhile ture; do <myapp>; echo "restarting myapp"; done23:09
itsnotabigtruckwell, do you know what exit code wazapp exits with in the crash case vs the normal case23:10
itsnotabigtruckmaybe check for that particular exit code and loop only then23:10
DocScrutinizerhmm, I didn't feel like going fancy23:10
DocScrutinizeruntil he understood the very basics23:11
godofwar424I see what your code does!! :P23:11
godofwar424Im getting there albeit slowly lol, so basically once I run your code in a script, itll just wait until it closes and then reopen it and so on23:11
DocScrutinizerthe first form only does that until the program quits with no error23:12
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DocScrutinizerthe second form loops infinitely23:12
DocScrutinizer(unless you've giveb a "set -e" cmd23:13
DocScrutinizerI leave it to you to figute how to spell "ture" right ;-D23:15
godofwar424Hmmm well the loop doesnt bother me tbh, unless its going to be draining resources but I don't think such a simple request will be a battery killer23:15
godofwar424or am i wrong yet again? :P23:15
godofwar424I figured that out :P23:15
Vromoth-N9What i meant was from a coders stand point. i want to add a new type of account to accounts.23:15
niwakamethe loop should stuck at the execution point23:15
niwakameuntil the program exits23:15
DocScrutinizeryour app is the battery killer, esp when it quits immediately23:15
itsnotabigtruckyeah, the loop takes up no resources while it's waiting for termination23:16
DocScrutinizerthe loop is harmless in itself23:16
itsnotabigtruckit actually takes less resources than the polling approach23:16
itsnotabigtruckthis is assuming, of course, that your loop works correctly23:16
DocScrutinizerWAAAAAY less23:16
itsnotabigtruckmake sure there isn't a way to get it into a scenario where wazapp terminates just after it's launched23:16
itsnotabigtruckor the loop otherwise spins quickly23:17
DocScrutinizerbut actually you might want to look into what "dsmetool --help" tells you23:18
godofwar424alright, I dont get that much drain from Wazapp tbh23:19
DocScrutinizerdafaq they neutered dsmetool in HARM23:19
godofwar424then again i got profilematic keeping me on GSM on idle and when using WiFi23:19
DocScrutinizerjust left a nonsensical line of advice in --help23:19
DocScrutinizerUSAGE: dsmetool <options>23:20
DocScrutinizerNote that the <cmd> should include absolute path.23:20
DocScrutinizergreat, isn't it?23:20
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: *knockknock*23:20
DocScrutinizerthat's dsmetool of fremantle:23:21
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DocScrutinizerUSAGE: dsmetool <options>23:21
DocScrutinizerNote that the <cmd> should include absolute path.23:21
DocScrutinizer  -r --start-reset=<cmd>          Start a process23:21
itsnotabigtruckniwakame: yeah?23:21
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: heard you have a signon package somewhere on gitorious?23:22
DocScrutinizeron HARM dsmetool *has no* options that would take a <cmd> anymore23:22
itsnotabigtruckniwakame: yeah23:22
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: I'm missing a dependency  here in QtSDK due to madde config fubar23:22
itsnotabigtrucknot a deb package, but the source code23:22
itsnotabigtruckoh, crap23:22
itsnotabigtruckyou need to set up scratchbox and build it23:22
niwakamenaw, I just think its running a 1.0 env23:22
niwakameand that signon thing should be 1.223:23
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itsnotabigtruckbtw you should consider using scratchbox anyway23:23
itsnotabigtruckthe qt sdk is a tier 1 piece of garbage23:23
godofwar424DocScrutinizer: You sure that its just not installed by default? Like how on the N900 wget was there by default whereas on the N9 you gotta install it23:24
niwakamebut you're right23:24
itsnotabigtruckit's easy to use until something goes wrong, and something always goes wrong23:24
itsnotabigtruckthen it's impossible to fix23:24
itsnotabigtruckalso w/r/t dsmetool - what if you run it on harmattan with the fremantle syntax23:24
itsnotabigtruckthey might have just stripped down the help text23:24
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: so do I need the signon package when setting up scratchbox anyway?23:25
DocScrutinizergodofwar424: nah, the dsmetool of harmattan got neutered, and they forgot that one line in helptext23:25
itsnotabigtruckniwakame: scratchbox will have the pr1.0 signon packages from the start23:25
itsnotabigtruckyou can then download the pr1.2 gpl source iso and put the source package files in your scratchbox and build them23:26
itsnotabigtruckif you want the absolute latest stuff23:26
itsnotabigtruckyou can then take the output of that back over to madde if you so desire23:26
DocScrutinizerWUT? CHEERS higgs!23:26
itsnotabigtruckor you can package your stuff the debian way and build your app inside scratchbox23:26
itsnotabigtruckthat makes it infinitely easier to upload to obs/appsformeego23:26
* DocScrutinizer sends a kudoes at ... ? CERN?23:26
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: I don't think I need the bleeding edge stuff. But I'll set up scratchbox anyway23:26
niwakameitsnotabigtruck: TY :)23:27
itsnotabigtruckalso, 'higgs-like'...maybe be cautiously optimistic until real info hits23:27
itsnotabigtruckalso niwakame: it's surprising how often you need the bleeding edge stuff :(23:27
niwakame*sighs again*23:27
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niwakamedo we have a step-by-step for the whole process or should I do my usual brute-force-installing23:28
itsnotabigtruckniwakame: it's pretty simple23:29
itsnotabigtruckfirst you need to be in linux23:29
ajalkaneIt's not higgs. It's just some damn particle that has the same weight higgs supposed to have. I bet it's just a fat meson.23:29
itsnotabigtruckor have a linux vm23:29
niwakameI am23:29
itsnotabigtruckthen you just download the installer from nokia and run it23:29
itsnotabigtruckand be patient, it downloads multi-gig files23:29
niwakamejust skip the two hours part :P23:29
niwakameI've installed scratchbox before on other machine23:30
niwakamebut I'm unsure about the 1.2 integration23:30
niwakameor is it the latest 1.2 then? with the installer?23:31
itsnotabigtrucki don't think there is any 1.2 integration23:35
itsnotabigtruckdue to nokia and its braindead policy23:35
itsnotabigtruckif you want pr1.2 apis, you have to try to find source packages that provide those apis, build them, and install them into scratchbox23:35
itsnotabigtruckit's possible to mix-and-match in most cases23:35
niwakameI'll keep this for tomorrow then23:39
niwakameFirst time installing scratchbox was like: "Oh hell yeah, I'm fired up! *start install* *scratches head* *wait* *make some coffee* *wait* -_-' *goes shopping*"23:40
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heymasterHow to write settings for harmattan and for symbian in pro file?23:59

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