IRC log of #harmattan for Sunday, 2012-06-24

ajalkaneWhat's NB=00:00
djszapinext billion...00:00
RST38hforget next billion00:00
ajalkaneI guessed that, but the next billion's got the Elop Axe +5 of MS holy fire.00:00
djszapiajalkane: irrelevant00:00
djszapiqt5 was born for primarily that case.00:01
RST38hthe way things are going, the relevant question is who will go bust first, RiM or Nokia00:01
djszapithe paradigm and the whole vision was constructed upon that.00:01
* RST38h farts every time he hears the word "paradigm"00:01
ajalkanedjszapi: why is that irrelevant? If no one is using Qt5 on mobile, what use is it that it was constructed for that paradigm?00:01
RST38hTwice on the use of word "vision"00:02
djszapiajalkane: because it is just simply not dead00:02
djszapiajalkane: there is no qt5 running in KDE00:02
djszapiand way way long way we need to come up with.00:02
djszapiit is already used on Harmattan00:02
djszapiand as far as I see on Android00:02
djszapirecap: it is currently mostly only used on mobile phones.00:02
RST38hYou have got a company that shed most of its R&D people, turned itself into a production outfit for Microsoft, making stuff nobody wants.00:02
RST38hAnd the funny part is that even Microsoft does not need what it does too much, with WinRT, Win8, and WP800:03
ajalkaneI'm still not seeing any enormous gains on using qt5 on harmattan. The only gains you've outlined is for Qt5 to become better, if I understood correctly.00:03
DocScrutinizer05and let me guess: still suggests to go "future", accomplish "visions", stick to "paradigms"?00:03
RST38hWhat vision? What paradigm? What next billion? The Meltemi people have been let gojust recently.00:03
djszapiajalkane: well, yes and no.00:04
RST38hThe QML-base Qt stuff is pretty much a disaster00:04
djszapiajalkane: if Qt5 gets better due to the actual usage, of course it is gonna be better for Android etc00:04
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RST38hIn fact, every time someone says "we need to include JavaScript" it is a sure sign of disastr00:04
djszapiajalkane: not to mention the new features there were nowhere in Qt.00:04
djszapiplus the less maintenance hell for many things.00:05
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: aaaah, of course. abuse a nearly dead platform to improve a nearly dead toolkit00:05
djszapisure, you will not get anything by using opengl instead of opengl as an end user00:06
DocScrutinizer05since the change from gtk to qt to qml wasn't enough to piss of every single developer on this planet00:06
RST38hDoc: you have forgotten two more steps00:06
djszapibut of course, that is not the only main point.00:06
DocScrutinizer05I thought as much, yes00:06
RST38hDoc: One is C# and the next one is WinRT00:06
RST38hI am sure making your device incompatible with any reasonable programming language made lots of progress for Microsoft and Nokia, vision-wise00:07
DocScrutinizer05ooh, we're about to await winRT on HARM now?00:07
RST38hDoc: Oh, I am talking in general sense00:07
ajalkaneI'm not sold on the utility of Qt5 on Harmattan on these arguments. Not until it's easy to deploy for end users as a dependency. And very easy work-flow for developers. Both are missing at the moment.00:07
RST38hDoc: If you are a Nokia developer, you are viewing Harmattan as just one generation of many00:08
RST38hDoc:And it does not look good either00:08
djszapiajalkane: then you are not buying many things00:08
djszapitoo many things IMO00:08
djszapiKDE for Harmattan, Qt for Android, KDE for Android ... etc in the long queue...00:08
RST38hAnd why do you need KDE for Android?00:08
djszapiKDE on Windows, Mac... and what not.00:08
RST38hOr even Qt for Android...00:08
djszapiRST38h: why wouldn't you?00:08
RST38hI can provide lots of reasons why I would NOT00:09
djszapiif there is a ready made logic in KDE that you can just wrap with a new UI ?00:09
ajalkaneThese all seem like something 99% of Harmattan users have no use for.00:09
djszapiajalkane: KDE has no use ? :o00:09
RST38hdjszapi: no such logic I can think about00:09
RST38hdjszapi: given that Android has got many more apps than KDE has to offer00:09
ajalkanedjszapi: KDE on harmattan is something I'm willing to claim 99% of Harmattan users will never install. If it ever becomes available.00:09
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: wrong addressee to talk about logic00:09
djszapiajalkane: then I have fake 40k downloads for just 2 KD Eapps.00:10
djszapiKDE apps*00:10
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ajalkanedjszapi: KDE is quite different than some applications that have been ported from KDE, aye?00:10
djszapiyou do not understand what KDE is.00:11
ajalkaneMight be. So you meant Qt5's utility is that KDE apps can be have on harmattan?00:11
djszapiIt has been in a royal PITA to deploy KDE.00:11
ajalkaneKDE doesn't use Qt5 at the moment, so what's the extra utility of Qt5 in that context?00:11
djszapiI have spent a decent amount of my life with working on that project, and managing people around00:12
djszapibut we did it!00:12
djszapiand many users are happy, and we got a lot of positive feedback.00:12
djszapiyou were claiming, if it is not two minutes to deliver, it is not worth it.00:12
djszapiI am saying, I disagree with that.00:12
* DocScrutinizer05 mumbles "don't feed the troll", blinks, talks to himself "idiot! nobody will listen to you"00:12
djszapiajalkane: KDE (frameworks branch) does use Qt5.00:13
djszapiactually that branch only uses Qt5.00:13
ajalkaneThose were not my exact words. But you're close to it if you modify your algorithm with benefit/cost analysis00:13
ajalkaneDoes your apps use Qt5?00:14
djszapiin other words:00:14
djszapiKDE is probably a lot more painy to deliver than Qt, so what ?00:14
ajalkanedjszapi: well, I'm glad someone has taken the painful road. Especially if it will make others to do similar work in the future easier.00:15
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: you're aware you discuss with a guy who probably still claims aegis is the greatest thing since Konrad Zuse00:15
RST38hWho is Konrad Zuse? Some mucho German deathcamp torturer?00:15
DocScrutinizer05based on the proposition he contributed to it00:15
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ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: lol yeah... but well, I do agree in principle with him that aegis is good. But the platform security policy as implemented on Harmattan is stupid.00:16
DocScrutinizer05well, then I guess in ~24 months you both will agree Qt5 on HARM also is as great as aegis, only the way it got used by app devels made it suck donkey balls00:17
RST38hbtw, deploying kde apps without deploying the whole thing is very very difficult00:18
DocScrutinizer05~wiki zuse00:18
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{redirect|Zuse|Konrad Zuse's son|Horst Zuse|the institute|Zuse Institute Berlin}} {{Infobox scientist | name = Konrad Zuse | image = Konrad Zuse (1992).jpg|200px | image_size = | caption = Konrad Zuse in 1992 | birth_date = {{birth date|1910|6|22|df=yes}} | birth_place = Berlin, German Empire | death_date = {{death date and age|1995|12|18|1910|6|22|df=yes}} | death_place = Hünfeld, ...00:18
RST38hand deploying the whole thing makes it very very unusable00:18
djszapiRST38h: for you, but not for tons of users who were happy.00:18
RST38hpeople get happy over stupidiest of reasons...00:19
djszapiah, yeah KDE is a crap, I forgot. :)00:19
RST38hno, not crap00:19
djszapiI brainwashed them in fact :D00:19
RST38hjust designed to be used standalone00:19
ajalkanelol... I think even today that Qt5 on Harmattan would be great. It just would have to be made practical. And it's not that. Nokia Store nor apps4meego support dependencies. And no one has made easy workflow for sharing the Qt5 libs. It needs to be easy for developers and users to get any usage.00:19
djszapiajalkane: you are wrong00:20
djszapiI have just said, we did make a nice workflow for this, even very well documented.00:20
ajalkanedjszapi: can you point me to the documentation?00:20
djszapiajalkane: sure, here you go:
djszapiI can even cross-link tons of examples that implemented that.00:21
djszapiand of course, there is always the ministro way.00:22
djszapibtw, I do not think apps4meego is any good00:23
djszapifor the mass.00:23
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: but wait, 24 months from now harmattan is dead like a a dinosaur turd fossil, thanks to Nokia discontinued the OVI signing shit that's needed for anything on HARM to work, thanks to insane aegis concept of centralized trust chain00:23
djszapiwhat is not in ovi, that does not matter to me unless the apps4meego guys get the client built into the firmware which is very unlike.00:23
ajalkanedjszapi: thanks... but isn't it waste of precious device space to include the same libs on every app?00:23
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: can inception/open kernel be used to get around that shit? Nokia's going down very soon anyway.00:24
djszapiajalkane: well, the answer is quite obvious00:24
djszapiajalkane: 1) 2.8M/usr/lib/ ( for instance )00:24
djszapi2) Ministro way00:24
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: it probably can, not though for the Nokia core apps00:25
djszapiI personally like the bundled stuff00:25
djszapiand I dislike distracting workflows etc00:25
djszapibut that is what you can do anyway00:25
djszapisure, you could become a cooker chef, if you dislike the reality.00:25
djszapibut I still like hacking anyway, and this is what can be done anyway. =)00:25
ajalkaneSure can be done... but I seriously doubt anyone would want to include multi megabyte libraries in their application unless they get big practical gains for the application... not just some stuff that helps Qt5 become better.00:26
djszapior shall I do ... what ? Lumia ? iPhone ?00:26
djszapiajalkane: all the KDE apps do00:26
djszapiworks fine without any issues00:27
djszapiI cannot share your worries at this point.00:27
ajalkanefor KDE apps it's probably a practical thing.00:27
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djszapiand this is not just done by KDE anyway00:27
djszapipractically by any application using additional dependencies.00:27
djszapiI do not really see the difference between KDE and Qt in this regard...00:28
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: that sucks. You're saying that once Elop's axe decapitates Nokia's head, the core apps won't work anymore?00:28
ajalkaneDamn annoying...00:29
DocScrutinizer05they won't cease to work, but quite obviously you can't re-install them00:29
djszapiinception has been a big hack anyway00:29
djszapinobody cared about nicely making a community kernel.00:29
djszapiwhich would have been the clean way anyway.00:29
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djszapifunky thing is that, people complain, but they do not actually do almost anything against what they dislioke.00:30
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: Is that a big problem? I mean, in the worst case you can feflash the fw00:30
djszapijust trolling.00:30
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DocScrutinizer05when you reflash the firmware, where from will you get the additional apps?00:31
DocScrutinizer05those which need any friggin aegis tokens00:31
DocScrutinizer05or whatever that'S called00:31
djszapitoken is an entirely distinct thing...00:31
DocScrutinizer05where will you publish your new apps?00:32
djszapiajalkane: so what do you propose ?00:32
ajalkaneI'd thought either jonni's magical backup utility, or open kernel would help with that. But I know nothing about this subject.00:32
djszapikeep complaining, life sucks ?00:32
djszapilike people with aegis, and do nothing against it ?00:32
djszapiI am inclined to do actually something with the current ingredients anyway00:32
DocScrutinizer05sure you can install the (actually existing, nicely made) openmode kernel, but then again your whole aegis crap will go pooof00:33
ajalkanedjszapi: no, I actually propose people experiment with Qt5 and hopefully come with a good workflow for it. It doesn't exist yet.00:33
djszapiajalkane: what exactly does not exist ?00:33
djszapiI have just told you the workflow.00:33
djszapiwhat you can do.00:33
DocScrutinizer05incl all the apps that depend on aegis00:33
ajalkanedjszapi: that workflow is KDE specific. We need easy, QtCreator based workflow that's easy for anyone getting their feet wet with harmattan development00:34
djszapiit is not.00:34
djszapiThis theory has nothing to do with KDE.00:34
djszapisame applies to Android Qt, etc.00:34
djszapiwe just happened to be the first group inventing these things.00:35
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ajalkanedjszapi: I'm not a fan of the same multimega inclusion of libraries included in every app. Why not put them into some shared location?00:35
djszapiajalkane: well, if you ignore me, then I am done. :)00:36
DocScrutinizer05meh, afk00:36
djszapi22:24 < djszapi> 2) Ministro way00:36
DocScrutinizer05since this chan is "KILL KILL!!!!" without proper ignore list, and friggin boring and mindboggling with00:37
ajalkanelol doc00:37
djszapi"...I personally like the bundled stuff..." "...and I dislike distracting workflows etc..."00:37
ajalkanedjszapi: I do not know the Ministro way, but I guess it's the libraries shared thingy?00:37
ajalkaneIs that some kind of installer that downloads the libs if needed?00:38
djszapiso, you would make your users life hard00:38
djszapiwith additional todos00:38
djszapiwho cares about 2 MB+ ?00:38
ajalkaneNo the point is, users life should be easy, and devs life should be easy00:38
djszapior 3 MB+ or 5 MB+ now ?00:38
DocScrutinizer05nobody gives a shit about devels' life00:38
djszapiand of course stuff is not designed for the majority.00:38
DocScrutinizer05it's all about the end result, as this isn't a development platform where the devel is the end user00:39
djszapiajalkane: yes... in Alice's world...00:39
djszapiyou can make dev's life easier here or users'00:39
djszapiI prefer users' life having simpler.00:39
DocScrutinizer05yet Nokia went over the top regarding this paradigm00:40
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: except the devels themselves :). I sure as hell don't have time to run through hoops to get some "latest gratest" working, unless there's a real good reason for it00:40
* RST38h farts00:40
ajalkanedjszapi: I dunno... to me those are pretty big sizes. Especially as 3mb/5mb is just the core library. Then there's the others libs on top of that.00:42
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: then stick with ... gtk? MTF? maybe even Qt?00:42
djszapiajalkane: again who cares ?00:42
djszapiuntil there are tons of applications, when the need arises for fixing ?00:42
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: On Harmattan QML + C++ works well00:42
djszapiWe are talking about boosting a project00:42
djszapiwalking step by step00:42
DocScrutinizer05as there's never been a reaaly sound reason for all this framework_of_the_month madness00:42
* RST38h sighs and notices how they are talking about completely wrong things00:43
djszapiand "sure as hell", bundled stuff is way easier to deal with for end users Joe00:43
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RST38hThe topic should be making/keeping project RELEVANT00:43
djszapithan getting dependencies right "on their own"./00:43
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders how to make his farts relevant00:43
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DocScrutinizer05as yet another dalvik-2-epigone on a walking dead platform like HARM foir sure isn't00:45
ajalkanedjszapi: I can only talk about myself, but I'm not going to arbitrarily make my application 10-20 times its size just to boosting Qt5 project, unless my application uses something that benefits greatly from that increase in size00:45
djszapiwell, you will not help Qt5 make a success that way :)00:45
djszapibut I do not worry too much about your involvement anyway.00:46
itsnotabigtruckwhen does the ovi x.509 certificate expire00:46
itsnotabigtruckwhen do the repository signing gpg keys expire (if they ever do)00:46
djszapiwe will still do the job.00:46
djszapisince we like Qt anyway.00:47
ajalkanedjszapi: Even if I would use qt5, my contribution would not make qt5 success. I simply don't have time to contribute to qt5. If I was paid to work on Qt related technology, things would be different.00:47
djszapiperhaps, you do not know what contribution means.00:48
djszapior rather: you define that differently than the rest of us, contributors.00:48
djszapicontributor is even any simpler tester, bug reporter, etc00:48
DocScrutinizer05ajalkane: why should your contribution to HARM / maemo help qt5 anyway? what's the benefit for HARM in that?00:49
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DocScrutinizer05I mean, have all those customers bought N9 to support qt devels or what?00:49
djszapito be honest, I have not felt recently this hostile atmosphere towards Qt5 recently, but whatever.00:49
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: I know too little about all the details of Qt5, but from the little I know the main advantages of Qt5 on Harmattan would be efficiency of QML and 3D. Basically QML based games would benefit.'00:50
djszapiajalkane: absolutely wrong00:50
DocScrutinizer05to make qt5 a better framework, and devels' life a breeze00:50
djszapithat is the only thing which would not change most likely.00:50
djszapiopengl remains opengl like I siad.00:50
* DocScrutinizer05 suggests a short look into python history, and (lacking) success of python3, and maybe learn from the sad story00:52
ajalkaneDocScrutinizer05: But really when you get down to it, my interest of Qt5 on harmattan is because I got into the Maemo summer '12 Qt5 device program. That's the basis of my interest in it.00:52
itsnotabigtruckoh shit00:53
ajalkaneThat's why I'm looking into it, and trying to see if there's some smart way to go about it00:53
itsnotabigtruckthere's 4 harmattan repo signing keys expiring in 201200:53
itsnotabigtruckoctober 3rd, specifically00:53
ajalkaneoctober you say? Hmm... I'm smelling a master plan somewhere in Elop's nest.00:53
itsnotabigtruckthe appsformeego key doesn't expire until 2020 and the maemosw and genss keys don't ever expire00:53
DocScrutinizer05itsnotabigtruck: goood! so maybe just maybe Nokia will refresh them before they fire the only guy knowing how to do that00:54
itsnotabigtruckthe expiring ones are "nokia repository signing key Nv1"00:54
itsnotabigtruckso the question is whether those keys are actually used to sign the 001 etc. repositories00:54
itsnotabigtruckif not, then it's a false alarm00:54
DocScrutinizer05but then, otoh, what's the use of signing keys when nobody is around to use them (you know it's always key pairs. sure you do)00:55
itsnotabigtruckto verify signatures generated via those keys00:56
djszapiajalkane: well, essentially you look at Qt5 from different angle than us, hackers of that.00:56
DocScrutinizer05and what if you need a new signature?00:56
itsnotabigtruckwhich is needed as long as harmattan phones are around00:57
itsnotabigtruckand probably fremantle too00:57
djszapiwe wanna make that a success, but you do not give a shit about that, just use that if it is ever available.00:57
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer05: what? as long as the content doesn't change, which probably won't be happening if nokia closes shop >_>00:57
DocScrutinizer05nah, on fremantle we live happily without any such signatures basically00:57
itsnotabigtruckthe signatures are valid as long as the key is valid00:57
djszapi"nicely", that is. Whatever it means, I have not already said.00:57
itsnotabigtruckand i'd bet you'd find you're incorrect00:57
DocScrutinizer05there are some, but not that essentially important to the whole thing00:57
itsnotabigtruckas with most things00:57
ajalkanedjszapi: You summarized it it pretty well.00:57
DocScrutinizer05ok, thanks for reminding me00:58
djszapiajalkane: well, it is fine. It is healthy, if you are not enthusiast and biased about Qt. :)00:58
DocScrutinizer05another ignore00:58
DocScrutinizer05friggin insane channel00:59
djszapiajalkane: we are desperate dudes xD00:59
ajalkanedjszapi: I like Qt, but my free time is really limited. If I had more time, I'd probably hack even on Qt. But now I barely have time to do some small applications. And even that half-assed.00:59
djszapiwell, the reason does not matter in the end.01:00
djszapiyou are not biased and enthusiast to put work into that for whatever reasons.01:00
ajalkaneI'd like to put that on my tombstone. "ajalkane was not biased"01:01
DocScrutinizer05isn't it significant how those who shout at each other the most are most identical in their twisted ways01:01
* DocScrutinizer05 heads over to tmo ca thread, fetches some more popcorn01:01
ajalkaneI recommend some good wine with the popcorn!01:02
djszapiwith your mentality there would be no KDE401:04
djszapior perhaps even prior KDE versions01:05
djszapiwhen QGV came out, that was a royal PITA to use with full of bugs, on top of which, Plasma has been based.01:05
ajalkaneI think there would.01:05
djszapihard to use, so do not use.01:05
djszapibut even in this case, I do not see what is hard01:06
djszapiafaict, I have enumerated the available two approaches.01:06
djszapiboth are pretty simple to implement.01:07
ajalkaneMaybe I just suck, but I think it would take me many hours to get it working.01:07
djszapito write one line for a shared library into your control file ?01:08
ajalkaneRemember, I don't use cmake01:08
djszapiwhat has debian packaging to do with cmake wrt the rules file and simple copy?01:08
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ajalkaneI dunno. Maybe the packaging is really easy. Frankly I haven't even gotten that far. I've used many hours just to get the qt5 cross-complation + QtCreator to work together well01:10
djszapiwhy would you cross-compile ?01:11
djszapiin the first place.01:11
djszapithey usually provide up to date qt5 packages.01:11
ajalkaneIf I'm using alpha releases I like to be able to compile them myself. Especially if I need to modify something.01:11
djszapiwhy would you modify something, if you do not have time?01:12
ajalkaneif I have no other choice, ie. it will speed up my progress01:12
djszapibut I can understand your painy, if you do not do nicely...01:13
djszapiand you ignore the simplifcation they do...01:13
djszapiperhaps, you could try out the packages.01:14
djszapiyou will love it.01:14
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M4rtinKfrom my perspective until there are Python bindings for it, Qt 5 is pretty irrelevant for me01:15
ajalkaneMaybe. But I didn't have huge problems compiling them. I'm mostly battling QtCreator now.01:15
djszapiajalkane: lol...01:15
djszapiM4rtinK: that makes no sense01:16
djszapiI mean python is obviously not available for something which is not even released or close that anyway01:16
djszapibut yes, there are people already making researches afaict01:16
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djszapiajalkane: drop qtcreator01:17
djszapiyour problem is that crapcreator, not qt5!01:17
ajalkanehaha, might be01:17
djszapitoo bad we have had to spend few hours to localize the real problem...01:17
djszapiwhich is unrelated to qt5...01:18
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M4rtinKdjszapi: yeah, I know, it would not be very wise to start building the bindings until things are more stabilized01:19
M4rtinKbut the lack of bindings still means a can't use it at the moment :)01:19
ajalkaneWell, IMO to gain in development popularity in harm it should be easy in QtCreator01:20
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djszapiajalkane: your problem is not with Qt501:20
djszapiyour problem is with QtCreator.01:20
ajalkaneMy problem is with dev ease + user ease. And I don't even think I have real problem, as I think these can be solved.01:21
djszapiIt is not something many people working on Qt5 including me will ever fix this for you.01:21
djszapisimply because many qt devs dislike qtcreator.01:21
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ajalkaneI bet the QtCreator folks are in love with it01:22
djszapithen butter them up01:22
djszapicannot find pleasure in helping with this, L(01:22
ajalkaneToo late, Elops's coming with an axe01:22
M4rtinKI think dependency handling is more serious that Qt Creator support01:23
djszapiyou mean "than" or "supports" ?01:24
djszapiand what is incomplete or incorrect what I mentioned about that issue afore ?01:25
M4rtinKI'm just saying what I think is more important01:27
djszapiright, but what is not done deal about that?01:27
djszapiajalkane: pretty please, just ask for the total removal of the project instead of help :)01:28
djszapi(qtcreator, that is lol...)01:28
M4rtinKif that KDE developed shared library scheme is generic enough for non-Qt apps, than everything is fine :)01:29
ajalkanedjszapi: No need, Elop is slowly crossing from Finland's Lapland towards Norway as we chat01:29
djszapiM4rtinK: it is.01:29
djszapiajalkane: who cares about Elop ?01:29
itsnotabigtruckyay, i got docscrutinizer to ignore me >_>01:29
M4rtinK..but i still thing "proper" package management would work too :)01:30
itsnotabigtrucki am probably being a bit cranky right now :(01:30
djszapiajalkane: if any, I would talk about MeeGo as the culsprit.01:30
djszapiajalkane: yeah, I know many people were blindly following the "new wave" dictated, but that has not made that good itself.01:31
ajalkaneElop's the one swinging the axe. You know he likes to do it.01:31
djszapiElop did not decide about MeeGo.01:32
djszapiwhich twisted Nokia into a kinda desperate state.01:32
SpeedEvilThings went icky with maemo way before Elop.01:33
ajalkaneNo matter... he's the executioner.'01:33
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: he clearly decided to abort meego01:33
itsnotabigtruckmost decisions can't be traced all the way up to the ceo, but this one can01:33
djszapiajalkane: it was a wrack at Elop times.01:33
SpeedEvilI mean - ovi store stopped working what - ~6mo in01:33
djszapieven before that.01:33
itsnotabigtruckalso...what do you mean "ovi store stopped working"01:34
itsnotabigtruckwhat happened01:34
SpeedEvilitsnotabigtruck: Ovi store was for a while to be how commercial apps were distributed on n90001:34
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: again, how cares about the meego cancellation ?01:34
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: the most appropriate question: why was MeeGo born in the first place ?01:34
djszapimostly to kill Maemo totally.01:35
djszapito commit suicide about the only proven platform.01:35
djszapithis makes me sad again :-S01:35
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: that sounds a bit conspiratorial...why would they cook up some fancy plan to "kill maemo" when it would easily do that on its own, with time01:35
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: N9 was (still is) people like01:36
djszapiit is shiny etc01:36
djszapiand this was achieved by 50% of available resources, if not more.01:36
djszapiand I am *not* speculating here.01:36
djszapiI *was* shared between the two projects.01:36
djszapiif not less*01:37
djszapiand even meego, why the darn loosy Intel ? :o01:38
djszapiat least not the rpi foundation, but not much better...01:40
djszapiPerhaps there were even big problems before establishing MeeGo, but that was surely a big head cut.01:44
M4rtinKand now for something completely different01:44
M4rtinKanyone got an idea how to add an element to MenuLayout ?01:45
M4rtinKI have a menu layout with a Quit button on Fremantle01:45
M4rtinKwhich is of course useless on Harmattan01:46
M4rtinKany way how to do this cleanly without using two almost similar MenuLayouts ?01:46
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djszapiM4rtinK: sorry ?02:04
djszapiCould you please clarify what you mean ?02:04
M4rtinKdjszapi: ?02:04
M4rtinKany idea about the MenuLayout ?02:05
djszapiwell, I would like to help, but I have no clue what you are talking about. xD02:05
djszapiwhat is "MenuLayout" ?02:06
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M4rtinKdjszapi: I have this:
M4rtinKand want the "Quit" MenuItem to not show up on Harmattan02:07
djszapiM4rtinK: the good old qml ifdef question...02:09
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djszapiM4rtinK: well, make a separate item with your customized menu item02:09
djszapihaving a boolean property for enabling the quit...02:09
djszapihmm, that would not actually help02:11
djszapiwell, you could have a C++ accessor for getting the platform.02:12
djszapiand set the visibl property of the quit thingy02:12
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M4rtinKwell, its not a problem to disable it02:13
M4rtinKbut to do that without any graphical glitches02:14
M4rtinKif I set visible : false and height : 002:14
M4rtinKit won't show up but the menu bottom is not round anymore02:14
M4rtinKI've also tried adding the Quit button to a second menu layout anchored on the first one02:15
M4rtinKbut that renders as two menu layouts with a small gap between them02:16
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trxM4rtinK did you try to destroy() it in some eg. onCompleted ?02:25
trxactually that won't work :/02:26
jonniM4rtinK: its easier just to ifdef in c++ side, so it loads different mainview in harmattan.02:28
jonnialthough there is no harm having quit item in the menulayout, I usually keep the quit item there even on harmattan..02:29
trxme too02:29
M4rtinKtrx: it works. :)02:30
trxit does?02:31
trxthats.. unexpected :)02:31
M4rtinKand it does exactly what I wanted :)02:33
M4rtinKeq. no glitches and layout duplication :)02:34
M4rtinKlets call it "QML sculpting" :)02:34
trxgreat :)02:36
DocScrutinizer05hi jonni! :-)02:38
DocScrutinizer05how's living?02:39
jonniwell life is what it is, I'm one of the 3700 who is getting booted in Finland in few months :). But interesting times ahead, 2 job interviews booked on next week.02:41
DocScrutinizer05good, at least for the 2nd half of this mess02:41
DocScrutinizer05good luck!02:41
M4rtinKtrx: this is how it looks like in the end:
jonniand if I dont find anything in finland, then I can always move to south africa, amazon has open positions in cape town :)02:43
DocScrutinizer05hey :-D02:43
M4rtinKtrx: and thanks a lot ! I was just about to start with the ParrentChange animation :)02:43
jonnisomeone from there already asked if any of us would be interested ;)02:44
DocScrutinizer05jonni: and, are you?02:44
trxM4rtinK thats exactly what i had in mind, but then i remembered that i have read in the docs that objects that you define staticaly in qml can't be destroy()'ed02:45
trx"it would produce an error"02:45
trxM4rtinK no problem, happy to help02:45
jonniDoc: heh, I have a wife, so if there salary would be 2x higher than normally then sure :)02:45
DocScrutinizer05yep, I see02:46
DocScrutinizer05actually I often felt similar02:46
jonniheh, ofcourse it could be possible, dont know what amazon offers :)02:47
DocScrutinizer05last time when I considered to move to Tampere ;-D02:47
DocScrutinizer05now I'm glad I didn't02:47
jonniwell Tampere still seems to have plenty of IT startups and companies in the region. Its just nokia which isnt hiring anymore.02:48
DocScrutinizer05yep, and I'd for sure be in those 3700 as well, when I did02:48
RST38hRiM is still hiring =)02:49
jonnibut RiM doesnt have office in finland :)02:49
DocScrutinizer05I recently chatted with them02:50
DocScrutinizer05didn't look where from the mail came02:50
jonniI didn try to download BB10 SDK and simulator, but failed miserabely to get SDK to deploy QML helloworld to simulator, so tooling side still needs improvements.02:51
M4rtinKtrx: I haven't seen any errors - so it indeed seems to work just fine :)02:51
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M4rtinKFYI: there is a working PySide port for BB10 & Qt-Components are also reportedly running on the Playbook just fine :)02:52
RST38hDoc, how have you managed to transdickify Estel?02:53
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itsnotabigtruckjonni: just replied on teh thread03:02
itsnotabigtruckhopefully i don't appear to be overly hostile03:04
itsnotabigtruckand good luck with your job search03:04
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jonniitsnotabigtruck: it was an ok reply. Even I felt wronged when they dismissed my application, but I have realised that there is nothing much that can be done, community has voted council as dictators, and in any resolution someone will get disapointed, if end results are adjusted then those that won and it would be taked away from them, would also cause bad blood. But yes everyone is free to have their own opinions, but there is no03:11
jonniresolution to problem which would make everyone happy.03:11
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jonni(or there resolution would be for developer relations to issue 20 extra devices out of nowhere, but thats a bit unlikely scenario)03:13
itsnotabigtruckjonni: heh03:15
itsnotabigtruckwell, it's quite obvious that a solution that makes everyone happy is impossible03:15
itsnotabigtruckcertainly not now that it's so heated03:15
itsnotabigtruckbut either the councilors are in the wrong or they're in the right, and if they're in the wrong, why does the solution need to make them happy03:16
heymasterHello, all. How to cast qsqltablemodel to qobject ?03:17
itsnotabigtruckheymaster: ... (QObject *)foo ?03:18
heymasteritsnotabigtruck: ok03:18
heymasterwill try03:18
itsnotabigtrucki'd strongly recommend you read some c++ tutorials before writing anything with qt03:18
heymasterhehe :)03:18
itsnotabigtruckyou'll save a lot of pain and tears03:18
heymasteri know :)03:18
itsnotabigtruckand in general all QSomething objects derive from QObject03:18
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: eh?03:19
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: dict transdickify03:19
itsnotabigtruckbut also you need to know how pointers (and references) work in c++03:19
itsnotabigtruckheymaster ^03:19
itsnotabigtruckif you copy/paste that c-style cast i wrote it probably won't work03:20
itsnotabigtruckand you can't upcast non-reference/pointer values03:20
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RST38hDoc: TRANSDICKIFY (verb) - Magically turn someone into a dick.03:20
heymasteritsnotabigtruck: ok, will search for info03:21
heymasteritsnotabigtruck: qobject_cast<QObject*>(model) ;03:22
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: ooh, didn't realize *I* did that ;-D03:22
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itsnotabigtruckheymaster: qobject_cast is unnecessary if you're upcasting03:23
DocScrutinizer05RST38h: however if I did, then probably by outright and sternly disagreeing on shipping custom kernel with CSSU-S/T03:23
itsnotabigtruckstatic_cast is just fine03:23
heymasteritsnotabigtruck: ok :) what is means upcasting ?03:24
itsnotabigtruckthe C-style cast (type)value is a compact way of writing a static/reinterpret/const cast03:24
itsnotabigtruckagain, you need to read about c++03:24
itsnotabigtrucki'm trying to help but i'm not particularly interested in explaining c++ fundamentals03:24
itsnotabigtruckyou need to know those *first* before diving in the deep end03:25
heymasteritsnotabigtruck: it means QObject derived object casts to QObject ?03:25
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it means casting up the hierarchy03:25
itsnotabigtrucktoward the root03:25
heymasterok :)03:25
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heymasterCan I create QSqlTableModel cast it to QObject and export to QML ?04:23
heymasterAnd assign to ListView Model ?04:24
heymasterI get error MainPage.qml:90: Unable to assign a function to a property.04:24
heymasterI rewrote  model: server.getModel()04:25
heymasterReferenceError: Can't find variable: name04:25
heymasterI get 3 error messages, exactly as my model has04:27
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heymaster << I will try this04:35
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heymasterit worked :)05:47
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ladogarzr: packages with user/* fix (so they can be removed using phone's UI) and a minor description fix are at my ftp
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denismdoes anybody know - is Qt-on-Pi dead already? Looking for something else than my N9 / Tegra2 Trimslice.11:13
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Lava_Crofti want to slowly murder the person responsible for screwing up the n9 camera12:22
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Velmontjonni: Opera also needs people, Sweden is kinda close to Finland :]12:39
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dm8tbrI thought opera was from .no ...12:46
Velmontdm8tbr: Yeah, but sweden is closer to Finland. -- But yeah, I would like more people coming to Opera HQ, so then I don't have to be newest hire in my team anymore :P12:47
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rzrwasnt there a rumour that fb will swallow opera ?12:49
alteregoSounds like a stretch12:50
alteregoSomeone should just buy the Salo factory ..12:50
alteregoIf I had millions I'd do it ..12:50
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Velmontrzr: Rumors are just that. I have no faith in it.12:54
rzri have no faith at all12:54
VelmontWell, i think that was a wrong word to use, -- I don't think there's anything to it, I should've said.12:55
HtheBdoes anyone have some knowledge about hildon desktop?12:56
rzrnot that much that stuff seems orphaned now12:56
HtheBrzr, we are trying to get maemo5 running in chroot12:56
HtheBfor harmattan12:57
HtheBwe managed many stuff already but there is still some stuff to do12:57
HtheBplease have a look12:57
rzrHtheB, i tried that one too12:59
rzrbest would be to build xephyr12:59
HtheBexplain please12:59
rzrwe could do the same w/ m513:00
rzrwe just need this dawn x server xephyr13:00
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HtheBgot time? :)13:01
HtheBlets try it13:01
rzrwhat ?13:02
HtheBbuilding xephyr? :p13:03
HtheB(to be honest, I think I didn't get it yet)13:03
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rzrno you got it :)13:16
rzrmer.deb did built it maybe that package will work13:16
rzrsee what i mean ?13:17
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HtheBdid someone made that package already before?13:32
rzrin m5 ? dont think so , but in mer yes13:33
HtheByoure the compile master13:33
HtheB(re)compiling stuff is your best thing13:33
rzrHtheB, i have harmattan tool chain , not fremantle here13:33
HtheBit is for harmattan though13:34
rzrshould be easy to setup but i am short on disk13:34
rzrno we should build it on m513:34
rzrsince we will run it from the chroot right ?13:34
HtheBbut somehow we just couldnt get that stupid hildon desktop to work13:36
rzrwell i used to start mer inside diable13:37
dymaxionHi, has anyone had experience with using the N9 with external USB based power packs? I have one that offers both 5V/1A and 5V/2A outputs, however neither can charge the N9.  I think it must be some firmware bug. The OS reports that there is not enough power to charge.  Don't know why the N9 can't pull enough current? Anyone else seen this problem?13:37
rzrwell i used to start mer inside diablo13:37
HtheBsee last post13:37
rzrdymaxion, i used one on my n95013:37
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dymaxionrzr, ever any problems?  I've tried it on 2 other phones, no problem (one iPhone 3G, one Samsung GNote) so can only assume it's the N9 that has the problem.  but whether it's my phone or the OS I don't know...13:38
rzrwe can compare the specs of our packs  what's yours13:40
dymaxionmine is an Aigo - PB8020 powerpack 8000mAh13:42
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dymaxioncute powerpack!  :-)   Mine's this one
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rzryours is 8k mine 1.513:59
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ZogG_laptopis it good?14:08
ZogG_laptopi'm thinking to buy one14:08
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jonnidymaxion: here's is how to make your external powerpacks detected
dymaxionIt's good... nice design... i like the soft touch plastic coating... and it's got interchangable connectors for diff phones... (only cost me 300 HKD over here :-)14:10
dymaxionthanks jonni, I'll have a look at this...14:10
jonnibasicly just get small usb flex adapter and short d+ and d- pins.14:11
ZogG_laptopjonni: i missed the point of it? if i use native cable it wouldn't detect it?14:12
dymaxionso basically the solution at the mo is to short the data pins so that the N9 doesn't detect it as a data/pc connection.. and thus will just charge..14:13
jonniZogG_laptop: yep native cable would not detect it... or it you if you short circuit d+ and d- in native cable. Its just easier and cheaper to shortcircuit the adapter.14:13
jonnis/it/it would/14:14
infobotjonni meant: ZogG_laptop: yep native cable would not detect it would... or it you if you short circuit d+ and d- in native cable. Its just easier and cheaper to shortcircuit the adapter.14:14
jonniblah bad search/replace.14:14
ZogG_laptopoh, the difference that it would detect it as computer/data? i can live with it for as long as it still charges14:15
jonnibut anyways if you want to use powerpacks that are normally designed for ipads, then you need to do that kind of hack.14:15
jonniyes, after the shortcircuit it alwayus detects it as charger and not as comp/data.14:16
dymaxionjonni, so the question is why is it if it detects as comp/data  why won't it still charge?   if I plugged phone into computer it would charge so both use cases should still charge.14:17
jonnidymaxion: because it doesnt detect it at all, as ipad chargers use non standard detection methods.14:17
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dymaxionI see... so in the intiial chat, where it's talking by whatevver voltage signing mechanism... the N9 thinks the battery is talking in klingon14:18
dymaxiondamm you apple !!!14:19
ZogG_laptopjonni: and how it works with android?14:20
jonnibut anyways its really easy fix, and total cost is around 2-3 euroes and 5 minutes time.14:20
dymaxioni hate the way they always do things different just to break the standard mould... grr... well glad I have some spare micro usb cables around!..... only prob left my soldering iron overseas...14:20
ZogG_laptops/how it works/how does it work/14:20
infobotZogG_laptop meant: jonni: and how does it work with android?14:20
dymaxionwell if the N9 firmware got programmed with some extra knowledge of the iPad charge protoocol it would then be able to talk to it... but i guess that would never happen.... so no point trying!14:21
jonniZogG_laptop: no idea, I havent seen any android phones yet in my life :)14:21
dymaxionandroid must either ignore all that and by default just charge like a dumb phone :-)14:21
ZogG_laptopjonni: they have usb to micro-usb as we do14:21
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dymaxionmy "ipad compatible" battery pack works with my g/f android phone... I'm gonna try it with my other symbian nokia 500 see what happens!14:22
jonnimost likely they just ignore and accept the nonstandard thingie.14:22
ZogG_laptopdymaxion: afaik there is program for power for n9 and if it works like n900 it's not really nice14:22
jonniand the other adventage is also that normally data cables are only charged as 500mA, but with shortcircuit you get it on wall mode, so it charger 1A atleast14:23
ZogG_laptopjonni: is it healthy for phone?14:23
jonniZogG_laptop: its healty, the wall charger that comes with the phone uses 1A.14:23
ZogG_laptopjonni: i don't use it btw, i use n900's charger =(14:24
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jonniyou get 2x faster charging with that compared to n900 charger :)14:24
ZogG_laptopas i got american socket and gave my adapter to grandpa with old laptop =(14:24
jonniheh get new adapter from dealextreme :)14:25
dymaxionwell the android phone charges at 1A even from the battery... so it must just have some mechanism where it tries and ramps up the current and see how much the USB device/battery/comp  can giev14:25
ZogG_laptopi hope the one i'll get in future would have normal socket14:25
dymaxioni wonder what the charge curve would be like for a 2A supply which my battery pack can provide.. prob fry the battery! :-)14:25
ZogG_laptopjonni: i think to buy new charger, but i can't find good one, i want original from nokia, the ones with speed boost =)14:26
dymaxionunless the N9 will just draw a max of 1A..14:26
dymaxionwould be interested to get a Dev involved with the N9 to explain how the N9 is programmed to charge...14:26
jonniwell yes with inception you should be able to patch bme to force wall mode, but I havent bothered to code it. was easier to make the adapter.14:29
dymaxiontrue... :-)  jonni, btw did you ever check what charging behaviour does the N9 exhibit with the data lines on open circuit rather than shorted to ground?14:36
jonniusually it does 500mA or 100mA or just 0.14:37
jonnidepending on what data lines tells the device behind it is.14:39
ZogG_laptopjonni: so it's bme also in N9?14:44
ZogG_laptopit is crap and closed like was in N900?14:44
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infobotKozzi meant: haha15:07
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* Lava_Croft grumbles some more at N9 camera17:00
Lava_Croftby the time the camera was loaded, the heavy thunderstorm passed by17:00
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MohammadAGTwo N950 fatalities?17:29
Lava_Croftsomeone killed two N950s?17:29
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer: Said I did :p17:30
Lava_Croftill take any broken n950's too17:31
Lava_Croftjust to stroke it17:31
Lava_Croftso, did you? :)17:31
Lava_Crofti mean, how does one get two n950s in the first place17:31
jonniyou just need to win enough competitions...17:36
Lava_Croftthat sounds too much like work to me17:37
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Kozziwow the CA mess is more interesting than I though it would be19:14
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dymaxionI tell you what annoys me about the N9 camera... is it's focus problems in high brightness / contrast scenarios..19:25
dymaxion(stage lighting)19:26
dymaxionI was really really annoyed as it couldn't focus in both video and photo mode...19:26
dymaxionwas overexposed too.. so had to manually dial down the exp comp...19:26
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dymaxionI was performing at the Mont Blanc opening party in Beijing... and had loads of hollywood movie stars on stage so close... but I couldn't get good shots...!  whereas... sad to say it.. but there were some iphone 4s users nearby who shot with zero problems...19:27
dymaxionsigh :-(19:27
rzrthe council has been setup my mr flop :-)19:27
Kozzithe video is passworded19:28
rzrKozzi, cant you see it ?19:28
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Kozzidymaxion: I'm more annoyed at the amount of noise19:28
rzrtoo bad i can19:28
KozziThis is a private video. Do you have permission to watch it? If so please provide the correct password.19:29
rzri could at least19:29
Kozzioh I was able to watch a moment a go..19:29
dymaxionwell I'd rather have noise (although yes I don't like the noise on the N9)  but to miss the shot completely is worse than having the shot wiht some noise!19:29
rzrsame oen at bottom19:30
Kozziwall I don't take pictures that often anyway but seeing those shots my N9 remind me of those taken by 580019:30
KozziI don't like ths development19:31
Kozzicloud service is okay but having to rely on cloud services sucks19:31
jonniusually it helps when you remove the plastic protection screen in front of the lens ;)19:34
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heymasterAny good qml tutorial for functions, variables or it's not QML and I need to learn JS ? :P21:19
ZogG_laptopmostly js21:22
heymasterI hate JS and never used it :)21:22
heymasterAny good JS crash course tutorial ? ;)21:26
heymastertoo much time consuming :)21:28
heymasterI known programming basics, used many languages, but haven't mastered programming :)21:30
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heymasterLooks like learning syntax every time :)21:31
heymasterI', searching something like "instant python" tutorial, but for JS21:33
ZogG_laptopthan try the request in google21:34
heymasterok :)21:34
heymaster << looks like I found good tutorial/book21:39
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heymasterWhat component to use to make few labels with textedit fields ? Any grouping is needed ?23:03
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heymasterus Item and anchor ?23:32
piggzheymaster: could also use grid23:33
heymasterpiggz: thanks23:34
befordanyone have had problems with scratchbox? like after installing it everything works, but after rebooting the machine it stops working?23:44
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