| gabriel9 | well money corupts. And in my country, all private colleges letting students to pass exams with little or no knowladge | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| itsnotabigtruck | heh | 00:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm going to a large public uni with rather expensive tuition...the classes certainly aren't easy | 00:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | at least most of them | 00:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but i'm in CS | 00:04 |
| gabriel9 | that is nice | 00:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | not really...the grades end up reflecting whoever's most committed to beating the class, rather than whoever has real skill | 00:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's an awful lot of CS students that are good at passing classes and not good at writing code | 00:05 |
| gabriel9 | on every college is same | 00:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because they're not the same thing at all | 00:05 |
| gabriel9 | we call them book worms | 00:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but the classes aren't easy | 00:05 |
| gabriel9 | well all collegues don't value logic and inteligence | 00:06 |
| gabriel9 | they just value memmory | 00:06 |
| gabriel9 | ;/ | 00:06 |
| gabriel9 | but i need one CS degree | 00:07 |
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| gabriel9 | if i plan to get some promotion :/ | 00:08 |
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| ajalkane | Much of the stuff in CS doesn't translate into real life needs in coding. But it's good stuff to know in the level of "hey, I remember something about this" so that you can look it up when there's need. | 00:20 |
| ajalkane | But yeah, someone who could fly those classes with flying colors doesn't necessarily know a shit about writing good code. | 00:21 |
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| gabriel9 | ajalkane: i agree on that, it is a good foundry | 00:43 |
| gabriel9 | you have a start point | 00:43 |
| gabriel9 | and that is great | 00:43 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | ajalkane: and those skills are mostly moot without the ability to write good code | 00:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | in theory, CS is a theoretical, mathematical field; in practice it's not :p | 00:51 |
| ajalkane | They're moot unless you plan to be a professor teaching CS in some fancy university :P | 00:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | heh | 00:53 |
| kozzi | hyvää vappua !!! | 00:55 |
| ajalkane | kozzua naamariin! | 00:56 |
| kozzi | dunno whats vappu in english | 00:57 |
| ajalkane | wappu, I think... | 00:57 |
| kozzi | lol | 00:57 |
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| kozzi | something is wrong with ovi store | 01:00 |
| kozzi | no new apps for like 2-3 weeks now | 01:00 |
| kozzi | is meego really that unpopular? | 01:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | kozzi: where are you looking for apps? | 01:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | creamyg released opptimizer and the opptimizer gui | 01:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i updated inception to be compatible with nokia's recent countermeasure | 01:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | trx released a text editor today | 01:02 |
| kozzi | well from the store | 01:02 |
| kozzi | Applications-recent | 01:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | nokia released a port of public transport (bus routing app) for n9 | 01:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | forget the store | 01:03 |
| kozzi | as much as I follow twitter and maemo.org | 01:03 |
| acpi | kozzi: the store was just broken last time I loaded it, as in 404.. the webpage said they were updating, maybe related? | 01:04 |
| kozzi | the store is just better to check out | 01:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the store is crippling | 01:04 |
| kozzi | nah I mean if there is something wrong with their qa test for new apps | 01:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm not against the concept of an app store, but ovi store does everything wrong | 01:05 |
| kozzi | yeah, th2 search function sucks | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's not what i'm talking about...that's the tip of the iceberg | 01:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | anyway, get opptimizer | 01:06 |
| kozzi | what is it for? | 01:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i wrote the aegis-wrangling utility for getting it loaded with inception | 01:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it overclocks your n9 | 01:06 |
| kozzi | heh, Im find with the current clock | 01:07 |
| kozzi | fine | 01:07 |
| kozzi | is there any mod for hiding the statusbar yet? | 01:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | why would you want to do that... | 01:12 |
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| kozzi | my status bar has burned in | 01:12 |
| kozzi | after long usage of fbreader and web | 01:13 |
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| Necrosporus | How do I open URL on device itself, do I have to install meescan or it's somehow integrated into usual camera app? I guess, I have to install MeeScan, but how to do it without nokia registration? | 01:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | what do you mean...you could always type the url into the browser | 01:29 |
| Necrosporus | Yeah, that's however I would like to use a scanner anyways | 01:30 |
| Necrosporus | Is meescan open source? | 01:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no, it's not | 01:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you can find the deb somewhere other than ovi store, you could install it that way | 01:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but an awful lot of stuff is only on ovi so sooner or later you'll have to suck it up and add an ovi account probably | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also the system tries to force you to have an ovi account to use the maps and drive apps, though maybe there's a hack around that | 01:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if you get a deb from somewhere else do aegis-origin on it from the temrinal and make sure it prints out com.nokia.maemo/ovi | 01:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that confirms that it's unmodified from whatever is shipping on ovi | 01:33 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, did you get inception, and did it meet your requirements | 01:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Necrosporus ^ | 01:35 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | so today's the last day for comm council nominations | 01:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | who's in | 01:46 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ivgalvez, estel, jcharpak, woody14619, arie, nieldk, sd69 | 01:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://i.imgur.com/jGaG7.jpg | 01:50 |
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| Necrosporus | itsnotabigtruck, no, I didn't yet | 02:01 |
| Necrosporus | For now I do not really need anything aegis preventing me from. But I guess, I would like to repartition the storage somehow | 02:02 |
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| Necrosporus | That's funny, but if I set up security code, I can't unset it | 02:22 |
| Necrosporus | Where's TV out? | 02:24 |
| Necrosporus | It's mentioned in settings | 02:24 |
| gabriel9 | Yes TV out is in settings | 02:25 |
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| Necrosporus | I have removed ovi-music-store via dpkg -r --ignore-depends=mp-harmattan-001-pr ovi-music-store but it still present in menu and works | 03:02 |
| Necrosporus | What am I doing wrong? | 03:02 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Necrosporus: isn't it called morpheus? | 03:09 |
| itsnotabigtruck | try getting rid of morpheus and morpheus-guard | 03:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | though overriding dependencies like that is kinda inadvisable, it could screw up your system later on | 03:10 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also if there's nothing you need to override aegis for, quit pestering everyone about open mode every few weeks :p but there's lots of things you can do that do require overriding aegis | 03:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that's why it's best to have inception ready to go so it's there whenever you need it | 03:12 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | sometimes you can get your phone into a precarious situation, and opensh can help you get it out without reflashing | 03:13 |
| Necrosporus | itsnotabigtruck, I said "Yet" | 03:13 |
| Necrosporus | opensh? | 03:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | (e.g. invalidated refhashlist/restok signature - you have to have opensh already installed in order to recover) | 03:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, opensh is an all access shell that you can install after setting up inception | 03:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it gives you true root access | 03:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | exactly like develsh but with more permissions | 03:14 |
| Necrosporus | But first I need to unzip a file | 03:15 |
| Necrosporus | There's uncompress in default install, but no unzip | 03:15 |
| Necrosporus | And browser said it can't recognize filetype | 03:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | do it on the pc first and scp it in? | 03:16 |
| Necrosporus | I'd rather install zip | 03:16 |
| Necrosporus | also I want dc and bc | 03:17 |
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| junglizer | ack. my phone isn't being detected by the flasher. It's just blinking it's light | 03:44 |
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| beford | you need to shut it down, unplug it | 03:54 |
| beford | then flasher -R, and plug it, and follow itsnotabigtruck's guide :P | 03:54 |
| junglizer | yeah I've been following the guide | 03:55 |
| junglizer | the light wasn't doing anything, even when plugged into the wall | 03:55 |
| junglizer | plugged it into my PC again and it showed up as solid white | 03:55 |
| junglizer | then windows tried to install the drivers, it started flashing and turned off | 03:56 |
| junglizer | the light I mean | 03:56 |
| Necrosporus | where can I find sources for the flasher? | 03:56 |
| beford | closed source afaik | 03:56 |
| junglizer | okay, now when I plug it in the light goes on for about 10 seconds, then off. Flasher still hasn't detected it | 03:59 |
| Necrosporus | Than one should disassemble it and write free replacement | 03:59 |
| Necrosporus | It's only 69 kib, so it must be possible to disassemble and get an idea what is it doing | 04:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | junglizer: now that the drivers are installed it might work better this time | 04:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | try putting it into sync and connect mode | 04:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | then do flasher -i | 04:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it'll send a phonet command to boot it back into open mode | 04:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | whoops, back into update mode | 04:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm not thinking straight right now | 04:27 |
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| Enforcer | hmm, meecast definately doesnt seem to get a gps location for me :/ | 05:57 |
| Necrosporus | What's the name of "most official" repository for Nokia N9, for example to install gcc, python, bc/dc, ed? | 06:00 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | Necrosporus: python is in the default repos | 06:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm having deja vu here, did you ask this already | 06:16 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | gcc, i'm not sure about how to go about installing it, it's definitely not part of the main nokia repos though | 06:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | don't know about the others | 06:17 |
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| Necrosporus | itsnotabigtruck, yeah, I did, but it was before I bought the device. I guess, I will have to search the channel log. There was some repo for standard console stuff and there's also "Apps For MeeGo" | 06:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, there's the official repos, apps for meego, the sdk repo, and rzr's repo | 06:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | start off with the first two and see if they have what you need | 06:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | apps for meego doesn't have that much in it right now and it doesn't have much in terms of console apps, though | 06:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also afm is split in two parts, main and testing, add both | 06:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's problems with aegis and the sdk repo starting with pr1.2 | 06:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also some of the stuff in there could break your n9 so don't install everything out of there willy nilly, it's intended for the sdk dev environment | 06:30 |
| itsnotabigtruck | rzr's repo has miscellaneous ports from debian and some other stuff, it's like a catch-all | 06:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also be a little careful with that, some of the stuff hasn't really been properly ported, or might conflict with a nokia package | 06:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and, that's about it | 06:31 |
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| Necrosporus | itsnotabigtruck, so to add those repos I need to edit sources.list, right? | 06:54 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Necrosporus: normally you'd put a separate file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d | 07:01 |
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| Elleo | morning aquarius :) | 10:14 |
| Elleo | aquarius: http://repo.pub.meego.com/home:/elleo/Harmattan/all/u1fn9_0.1-1_all.deb | 10:14 |
| aquarius | Elleo, ooh, cool | 10:15 |
| * aquarius tries installing it :) | 10:15 | |
| Elleo | packaging and everything is in my bzr branch, along with a small patch to use the absolute path for launching the download manager and finding the QML file | 10:15 |
| Elleo | also it works nicely on the n900 with the community CSSU: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DPvO1H2rEHc/T59yYd_Q-rI/AAAAAAAAAFw/YRiQuo6tq6w/s857/12050004.jpg | 10:16 |
| Elleo | although I haven't made a package for maemo yet | 10:16 |
| aquarius | I don't know what's up with y phone, but somethnig is... it keeps refusing to see the net | 10:19 |
| aquarius | including saying there's no cell coverage when there is :( | 10:19 |
| gabriel9 | what is that | 10:19 |
| gabriel9 | and morning al | 10:20 |
| gabriel9 | all | 10:20 |
| Elleo | aquarius: ah, that's different to the issue I sometimes have then; in which is specifically won't see my home wifi net until I restart my router | 10:20 |
| Elleo | 3G networking still works fine under those conditions though | 10:20 |
| Elleo | gabriel9: it's a client aquarius has been writing for the ubuntu one file storage service | 10:21 |
| gabriel9 | cloud thingie | 10:22 |
| Elleo | yeah | 10:22 |
| aquarius | yay, and it works :) | 10:22 |
| Elleo | awesome :) | 10:22 |
| gabriel9 | congrat | 10:22 |
| gabriel9 | :) | 10:22 |
| gabriel9 | but is still use DropBox | 10:22 |
| aquarius | nice one Elleo :) | 10:22 |
| aquarius | so, next question: how does one publish such a thing? I can presumably submit it to appsformeego? | 10:24 |
| aquarius | I'll do a blog post first, though :) | 10:25 |
| gabriel9 | OVI' | 10:25 |
| gabriel9 | ? | 10:25 |
| gabriel9 | if you want lots of installations then OVI is the way | 10:26 |
| aquarius | oh, certainly, that too | 10:26 |
| Elleo | aquarius: yeah, it's built in OBS at the moment so we can submit to apps for meego its just a couple of clicks | 10:26 |
| gabriel9 | i read some article where people go for apps, and it is allways official store | 10:26 |
| aquarius | but I haven't read the submission criteria for the official store yet :) | 10:26 |
| Elleo | at which point it'll go in to the testing repo pretty much instantly | 10:26 |
| * aquarius plays downloaded music :) | 10:27 | |
| Elleo | yeah, off the top of my head the main thing you're going to need to add is an about page | 10:27 |
| gabriel9 | but put it also in Apps For Meego :), also you can add it here: http://n9-apps.com/ | 10:27 |
| aquarius | the app needs about nineteen kinds of error checking, too, which it currently doesn't have ;) | 10:27 |
| aquarius | but now I have packaging I can just redo that | 10:27 |
| aquarius | Elleo, once I have your changes, how do I build a package? | 10:27 |
| Elleo | aquarius: first run "dch -i", that'll open the debian changelog and increment the version number | 10:28 |
| Elleo | then fill in whatever changes have taken place | 10:28 |
| Elleo | then just run "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot" | 10:28 |
| Elleo | all from within the u1fn9 directory | 10:28 |
| gabriel9 | 1. May will be coding day for me :) | 10:28 |
| Elleo | then in the directory above you you'll find the .deb which you can upload to Ovi | 10:29 |
| Elleo | unless you want me to handle the apps for meego stuff for you then you'll need to get yourself an OBS account, where you can upload the .tar.gz and .dsc file (then OBS will build a package from those itself) | 10:30 |
| aquarius | ah, cool, so it's just like building Ubuntu packages :) | 10:31 |
| Elleo | yep | 10:31 |
| Elleo | aquarius: oh yeah and you may want to edit the debian/copying file, I just assumed the license was GPL, so if its not you should change that | 10:31 |
| aquarius | I figured it would be, but wasn't sure | 10:31 |
| aquarius | not sure about gpl because I'm not sure of the licencing on the JS stuff I used. May need to be MIT or something; will check | 10:32 |
| Elleo | okay | 10:32 |
| Elleo | also when you're building packages yourself make sure you do it in scratchbox | 10:32 |
| Elleo | while you can build the packages fine outside of scratchbox they won't have any of the aegis stuff applied to them | 10:32 |
| aquarius | aah | 10:32 |
| aquarius | this is useful | 10:32 |
| Elleo | or just let OBS do all your building for you | 10:32 |
| aquarius | also, no cross-compiling to armel rubbish for me, Python programmer that I am :) | 10:33 |
| Elleo | heh | 10:33 |
| aquarius | right, brilliant. This is brilliant. | 10:33 |
| Elleo | aquarius: oh yeah, for some reason your menu comes up in the wrong orientation | 10:35 |
| Elleo | I have no clue what's going on there | 10:35 |
| aquarius | ha! so it does | 10:36 |
| aquarius | works in scratchbox/xepyhr. Weird. | 10:36 |
| aquarius | warning: don't go into the settings | 10:36 |
| Elleo | heh | 10:36 |
| aquarius | because there's no cancel button. :) | 10:36 |
| Elleo | yeah, I found that myself ;) | 10:36 |
| aquarius | so if you open the settings pane, you can only get out of it by closing the app or by getting a new oauth token ;) | 10:36 |
| aquarius | this is, obviously, not the way it needs to be, I just didn't get to fixing it ;) | 10:37 |
| Elleo | yeah, but all the important stuff seems to work nicely now which is what really matters | 10:38 |
| aquarius | that's the plan, indeed | 10:38 |
| aquarius | man, am I glad itsnotabigtruck talked me into using the transferui ;) | 10:38 |
| Elleo | heh | 10:38 |
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| aquarius | so, next steps: fix settings pane, download-a-whole-folder, upload files, upload-photos-automatically, sign up rather than sign in, share a folder, in roughly that order | 10:41 |
| aquarius | Elleo, where's your branch? | 10:41 |
| Elleo | aquarius: lp:~michael-sheldon/+junk/u1fn9 | 10:41 |
| aquarius | oh, -sheldon, not .sheldon :) | 10:42 |
| Elleo | yep | 10:42 |
| aquarius | do I need to provide an svg icon? | 10:43 |
| aquarius | I have a png... | 10:43 |
| Elleo | aquarius: there's a rough icon a knocked up in the images directory | 10:44 |
| aquarius | ya | 10:44 |
| aquarius | I have a nicer png one, but you did an svg as well | 10:44 |
| Elleo | if you want to make a new one ideally you want an SVG so you can use http://apps.javispedro.com/nit/hicg/ | 10:45 |
| aquarius | heh | 10:45 |
| Elleo | to handle the harmattan style background and stuff for you | 10:45 |
| aquarius | I used the photoshop templates that nokia provide to make mine ;) | 10:45 |
| Elleo | ah right, in that case a png is fine | 10:45 |
| Elleo | let me know when you've pushed it to your branch and I'll update the packaging | 10:46 |
| aquarius | nice app though! | 10:46 |
| Elleo | the debian/control file has to contain a base64 encoded version of the icon for it to display in the app manager | 10:46 |
| aquarius | is there some convenient command to update that, or do I just do it by hand? | 10:47 |
| Elleo | I end up just doing it by hand | 10:47 |
| aquarius | (as in: base64 the icon and then paste it in by manual editing?) | 10:47 |
| aquarius | cool, I'll do that :) | 10:47 |
| Elleo | well, where "by hand is" base64 blah >> debian/control | 10:47 |
| Elleo | after deleting the existing one | 10:47 |
| aquarius | ya | 10:47 |
| Elleo | but then you need to open up the debian control in vim | 10:47 |
| aquarius | gedit debian/control | 10:47 |
| aquarius | bah! | 10:47 |
| Elleo | (or whatever editor) | 10:47 |
| aquarius | wrong window :) | 10:47 |
| Elleo | and insert a space to the beginning of each line in the base64 output | 10:48 |
| Elleo | :31,100s/^/ / for example in vim, where the first line is line 31, and the last is 100 | 10:48 |
| Elleo | dunno if there's a way to do something like that in gedit | 10:49 |
| aquarius | I just added spaces by hand too ;) | 10:50 |
| Elleo | heh | 10:50 |
| Elleo | that works too I guess | 10:50 |
| aquarius | hrm. dch -i changes the version number to 0.1-1ubuntu1 | 10:50 |
| Elleo | yeah, you'll probably want to correct that to something more meaningful | 10:50 |
| aquarius | oh, I can just change it in the changelog itself? | 10:51 |
| Elleo | I guess it's making some assumptions based on your host operating system | 10:51 |
| Elleo | yeah | 10:51 |
| aquarius | cool. | 10:51 |
| Elleo | dch -i just opens the changelog in your default text editor and sticks a new entry at the top | 10:51 |
| Elleo | so you could do everything manually in gedit if you wanted | 10:51 |
| aquarius | so, remind me how debian versioning works ... 0.1-2 would be a fine next number? | 10:52 |
| aquarius | new icon hardly seems worth a 0.2 release :) | 10:52 |
| Elleo | 0.1-2 indicates that it's the next version of the package | 10:52 |
| Elleo | as opposed to a new version of the software | 10:52 |
| Elleo | so if you were to have a minor bug fix in the software you might then go up to 0.1.1 | 10:53 |
| aquarius | ah, cool, that makes sense | 10:53 |
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| aquarius | so I shall fix a few other things first and then bundle the icon change along with them, I think. | 10:53 |
| Elleo | cool | 10:54 |
| aquarius | this is very cool indeed. | 10:54 |
| aquarius | nice one, pal, that's really helpful :) | 10:54 |
| Elleo | no worries | 10:55 |
| aquarius | question: does it really depend on python-gconf? | 10:55 |
| Elleo | ah no | 10:55 |
| Elleo | that's probably left over from my statusnet control that I copied it from | 10:55 |
| aquarius | cool. | 10:56 |
| aquarius | Elleo, am I allowed to dpkg-buildpackage having not updated the changelog? that is, so I can build a version of the package that I can test works?? | 11:05 |
| Elleo | aquarius: yeah | 11:06 |
| Elleo | its only when you want to push something out to other people that you need to update the changelog | 11:06 |
| aquarius | excellent. | 11:06 |
| Elleo | if you're installing it manually yourself it doesn't matter | 11:06 |
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| ieatlint | bleh, publishing apps is just fucking annoying with ovi | 11:44 |
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| ieatlint | just suffered the classic "your support website isn't good enough" rejection, but really, the whole process is arcane, and square screenshots? wtf is that shit. there's no nokia phone with a square resolution. | 11:45 |
| Elleo | heh, my support website is just a hastily thrown together html page with a couple of screenshots dumped on it: http://meego.mikeasoft.com/statusnet/ and they let that pass :/ | 11:46 |
| Elleo | I only ended up doing that because they rejected my real website for mentioning apps for meego on it | 11:46 |
| ieatlint | yeah, just finished doing that basically, just unhappy that i'm being set back two days for it | 11:48 |
| rzr | i confirm ovi is boring | 11:48 |
| ieatlint | they let a thousand spam apps that just show a web page with adverts on it, but an app with actual content is rejected for not having enough "support" | 11:48 |
| ieatlint | comes off more to me as "i need to go through 100 submissions today, and if i can side-step a few by saying the support website sucks, i don't actually need to do any real QA on them" | 11:49 |
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| Elleo | yeah, and a lot of the cookie cutter apps that don't do much don't require much testing | 11:50 |
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| Elleo | although even once stuff gets passed QA they don't seem to be especially motivated to get it published | 11:51 |
| Elleo | my app passed QA a few weeks ago but is still just sitting waiting to be published | 11:51 |
| ieatlint | well, i submitted this sunday, so i can't claim it's been too excessively long | 11:52 |
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| ieatlint | but yeah, they say it can take up to 7 biz days.. that is within a reasonable limit, but weeks isn't | 11:53 |
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| ieatlint | if i reach two full calendar weeks, i'll just get drunk enough to think it's a good idea to email people at nokia complaining | 11:55 |
| Elleo | heh | 11:56 |
| ieatlint | this tactic has proven successful in other contexts, especially social ones | 11:56 |
| auenf | has it really passed QA, or is it in another queue for QA testing :P | 11:56 |
| Elleo | auenf: well it says "100% passed" in the little QA listing thing | 11:56 |
| Elleo | so presumably its gone through all the QA that its going to go through | 11:57 |
| Elleo | and 0% in the "in progress" or "waiting" categories | 11:57 |
| ieatlint | i've no experience with other app stores, but i now wonder if they're also this arcane | 11:59 |
| Elleo | well with the android market things are pretty much instant, but there's pretty much no QA going on there | 12:00 |
| Elleo | not that there's much worthwhile QA happening in Ovi | 12:00 |
| ieatlint | based on the apps i see in the ovi store, i think the argument that the QA for nokia is better is unproven | 12:00 |
| ieatlint | yeah | 12:00 |
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| SpeedEvil | It would be interesting to get stats on rejected apps | 12:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Actually. | 12:38 |
| SpeedEvil | Is there any 'because it's shit' ground for rejection? | 12:38 |
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| Elleo | SpeedEvil: if there was there'd be about 80% fewer apps in the store ;) | 12:41 |
| Termana | SpeedEvil, great new idea for an app store. Everyone will submit their apps to me, I will look at them, if they are good I will let them in, if they are shit they will get rejected. Three shit apps and the developer gets shitlisted. | 12:51 |
| Termana | Includes resubmissions | 12:52 |
| Termana | Of course, I'll be taking a 30% cut on paid apps | 12:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | Termana: can you get back burn elop game? | 13:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | btw was it out for harmattan as well? | 13:01 |
| Termana | ZogG_laptop, I had to look it up to see what it was. I think it's a really dumb move if Nokia removed it | 13:04 |
| ZogG_laptop | Termana: they removed it | 13:04 |
| ZogG_laptop | it was on symbian | 13:05 |
| ZogG_laptop | http://ovi.petrucci.ch/?sezione=elpo | 13:05 |
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| djszapi | hey | 14:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | ._. | 14:39 |
| djszapi | http://paste.kde.org/466622/ -> How could I accomplish something like this in QML without invoking a C++ helper method ? | 14:40 |
| djszapi | I need a list from one to twenty. | 14:40 |
| djszapi | that I can then feed to a gridview model for instance. | 14:40 |
| djszapi | "var i" should work better than int though. | 14:41 |
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| trx | djszapi i believe you can use a Repeater | 14:47 |
| djszapi | which would slow the whole down ... | 14:47 |
| djszapi | not functioning, but this does not at least raise a warning: http://paste.kde.org/466628/ | 14:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | Nokia QA - hahaha | 14:51 |
| djszapi | yep, that fills the variable correctly in, but I still somehow just only see one button in the middle. :/ | 14:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: hang man game for n9 is yours? | 14:53 |
| djszapi | ZogG_laptop: khangman, yep. | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | may you make it random and add more words ? | 14:54 |
| djszapi | it is already random. | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | because words are just repeat themselve in same order | 14:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | Nokia *really* must've had a _hard_ time hiring those QA dudes | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | if i select profession eg | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | or i mistaken? | 14:54 |
| djszapi | hmm, that might be a bug. :) | 14:54 |
| djszapi | but there is a random sequence generator in the code, so perhaps it is just an implementation bug. | 14:55 |
| djszapi | is it the same for kanagram ? | 14:55 |
| djszapi | They share the same database. | 14:55 |
| djszapi | Interesting, one review was removed after marking that abuse. | 14:55 |
| djszapi | Can reviewers withdraw the reviews ? Was thinking of a withdraw or abuse deletion. | 14:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: havent's seen it, games as well? | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | I guess QA is what's your promotion after surviving 6 months of user helpdesk | 14:56 |
| djszapi | yep | 14:56 |
| djszapi | ohh, khangman is not five stars anymore :( | 14:56 |
| djszapi | altogether, that is. | 14:56 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: random bacground would be nice as well i think, chnage makrs and stuff, but it's just to make it to look better | 14:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | "education and training not included" | 14:57 |
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| djszapi | thing is, I do not work on khangman-harmattan anymore, but the whole code is open source | 14:57 |
| djszapi | I think the code is quite reasonable, so probably simple to add features or fix bugs. | 14:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | so you want me to do it myself? | 14:57 |
| djszapi | nah, I am just saying, it is unlike I will touch the khangman code base in the near future. | 14:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | ohh | 14:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | understandable | 14:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | one more advice, but that one is more personal - sensetive | 14:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | your apps look like kde apps | 14:59 |
| djszapi | https://projects.kde.org/projects/kde/kdeedu/libkdeedu/repository/revisions/master/show/data/kvtml -> Here you can add new words. | 14:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i think it's not that good especially on harmattan | 14:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | just saw icons from kanagram | 15:00 |
| ZogG_laptop | and that k in the name =P | 15:00 |
| * RST38h yawns | 15:01 | |
| RST38h | Soo, gentlemen, anything new and exciting today? | 15:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: waiting for wazapp beta | 15:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | yay \o/ | 15:01 |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: how are you doing? | 15:01 |
| RST38h | gnarly, thank you | 15:02 |
| RST38h | waz'wazapp? | 15:02 |
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| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: whatsapp port | 15:04 |
| ZogG_laptop | with epic thread on TMO | 15:04 |
| RST38h | is it some "social" shit again? | 15:08 |
| RST38h | another messenger? gtalk/skype/icq/irc/aim/lync not enough? | 15:08 |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: nope | 15:09 |
| RST38h | ? | 15:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | lync? lol what? | 15:09 |
| RST38h | so what is whatsapp then? | 15:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: whatsapp is actually using xmpp but... people do not bother every second person with phone has it, so i want it just coz every single friend has it, so i don't have to set jabber for them os skype or gtalk | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | and it works as sms kinda things, not online chat | 15:10 |
| RST38h | so, it *is* another messenger? | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | yeah | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | no was for social =) | 15:10 |
| * RST38h flushes local caches, goes on. | 15:10 | |
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| djszapi | ZogG_laptop: randomization works fine in kanagram ? | 15:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | RST38h: i had icq when it was popular in russian, but as i don't live there i found out everyclasmate here used msn | 15:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | so i had to switch to talk to my crushes =P | 15:11 |
| * RST38h has email and a landline phone | 15:12 | |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: i didn't try it | 15:12 |
| djszapi | ZogG_laptop: naughty you. :-P | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: i'll try it out later and report | 15:12 |
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| djszapi | ok, I am now leaving, but I will be available on freenode for at least a short query. | 15:13 |
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| gabriel9 | guys i need a help | 16:36 |
| SpeedEvil | With? | 16:36 |
| gabriel9 | i'm spaming nokia conversations in a good way | 16:36 |
| gabriel9 | :D | 16:36 |
| gabriel9 | with nice comments | 16:37 |
| gabriel9 | so | 16:37 |
| gabriel9 | what Lumia can't and N9 can do :) | 16:37 |
| gabriel9 | i don't have lumia phone so i can't compare | 16:37 |
| gabriel9 | http://conversations.nokia.com/2012/05/01/10-more-things-you-never-knew-your-lumia-could-do/ | 16:37 |
| leinir | i take it you already took the background skype calls thing ;) | 16:39 |
| leinir | s/took/mentioned/ | 16:39 |
| infobot | leinir meant: i take it you already mentioned the background skype calls thing ;) | 16:39 |
| gabriel9 | ? | 16:39 |
| leinir | that windows phone can't take skype calls unless the application is in the foreground | 16:40 |
| gabriel9 | ok that's one :) | 16:40 |
| gabriel9 | what about bluetooth? | 16:40 |
| leinir | (and it's not Skype's fault, the platform won't allow it) | 16:41 |
| gabriel9 | thanks | 16:41 |
| gabriel9 | come on guys help me with this | 16:42 |
| junglizer | smaller screen (due to the buttons) | 16:42 |
| gabriel9 | that is hard to formulate i can't do that with Lumia :/ | 16:43 |
| gabriel9 | in* | 16:43 |
| junglizer | um, well my N9 is bricked right now :( | 16:43 |
| gabriel9 | :D | 16:43 |
| gabriel9 | what did you do? | 16:43 |
| junglizer | I attempted to install an update for Firefox. It hung, so I closed it and tried to restart the phone | 16:44 |
| gabriel9 | also i want to share this with you: nice music http://keygenmusic.net/?lang=en | 16:44 |
| gabriel9 | wow, that is bad | 16:44 |
| junglizer | yeah. was trying to follow itsnotabigtruck's guide but the flasher isn't detecting it | 16:44 |
| gabriel9 | try couple of times | 16:45 |
| gabriel9 | also turn it off | 16:45 |
| junglizer | it's not on. I was thinking maybe it was dead battery, I left it plugged in to the wall charger at home | 16:46 |
| junglizer | but there aren't any lights | 16:46 |
| gabriel9 | one time i also got that | 16:46 |
| gabriel9 | it was dead battery | 16:46 |
| junglizer | it lights up for a minute or so, then the light goes off | 16:46 |
| gabriel9 | after some time it was ok while charging | 16:46 |
| gabriel9 | leave it for some time | 16:46 |
| junglizer | yeah, that's what I was thinking it was | 16:46 |
| junglizer | I'll probably go to radio shack or something over lunch today and try to find a micro sim adapter so I can use my N900 again | 16:47 |
| gabriel9 | what firmvare version do you have? | 16:47 |
| leinir | right... you might need a usb3 port on a computer for that... turns out the wall charger only trickle charges until you can boot it up far enough to negotiate the full 1A | 16:47 |
| leinir | (happened to me the other week, wall charger did nothing, plugged it into the usb3 port on my laptop, thing boots and is all happy) :) | 16:47 |
| junglizer | usb3? I've only got the standard 2.0 to my knowledge | 16:48 |
| leinir | any of them yellow? | 16:48 |
| junglizer | no | 16:48 |
| gabriel9 | for it works well on 2.0 but i have 3.0 also | 16:48 |
| leinir | usb2 /might/ do the trick... worth a shot anyway | 16:48 |
| junglizer | macbook pro | 16:48 |
| gabriel9 | do not plug it in | 16:48 |
| junglizer | it's plugged into the wall right now | 16:49 |
| gabriel9 | it will burn all device which does not have i in their name :P | 16:49 |
| gabriel9 | leave it for some time | 16:49 |
| junglizer | hah, well i've got win7 installed on it also | 16:49 |
| junglizer | and I'm on linux righ tnow | 16:49 |
| gabriel9 | it is abomination | 16:49 |
| gabriel9 | Win on macbook :D | 16:49 |
| junglizer | lol, well I am fond of video games | 16:50 |
| gabriel9 | just kidding, i have also i Win7 | 16:50 |
| gabriel9 | for games :) | 16:50 |
| junglizer | problem I have is all the games now are huge! I only made an 80gb partition | 16:50 |
| gabriel9 | that was my mistake first time | 16:51 |
| gabriel9 | well you can allwayy play one at the time | 16:51 |
| gabriel9 | Also check Heroes Of Nevereth | 16:51 |
| gabriel9 | and Warface | 16:51 |
| gabriel9 | free :) | 16:51 |
| junglizer | well i play a lot of CS, so some variant of that (usually source) is always installed | 16:52 |
| junglizer | though I am in the beta for Global Offensive | 16:52 |
| gabriel9 | i play on work CS source | 16:53 |
| junglizer | heh | 16:53 |
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| junglizer | I did pick up Dungeons of Dredmor recently, that's pretty fun | 16:58 |
| gabriel9 | turn based isometric camera | 16:59 |
| gabriel9 | great | 16:59 |
| gabriel9 | btw i have need to play Fallout 2 again :) | 17:00 |
| gabriel9 | brb | 17:00 |
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| beford | Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 206 (54 members and 152 guests) | 17:21 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | junglizer: did you get it working | 18:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also, it's important when you try to start the flash from the powered off state | 18:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that the phone is actually powered off | 18:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which means unplugging it and waiting until the led turns off | 18:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | did you try the method of starting from sync and connect mode | 18:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if not, try that | 18:20 |
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| junglizer | itsnotabigtruck: no, i think the battery was dead | 18:31 |
| junglizer | i have it plugged into the wall charger right now | 18:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | oh ok | 18:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | if the nokia logo doesn't pop up, it's definitely not going to work | 18:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it connects to the bootloader shortly after the nokia logo appears | 18:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | also make sure you charge the battery to a healthy level, like at least 40% or so | 18:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it checks the battery level when you try to flash | 18:34 |
| junglizer | yeah, I'm assuming that it's a battery issue at this point | 18:35 |
| junglizer | the cause of it all was it hanging on a firefox update and then "freaking out". When I'd closed everything that was running and restarted it.... nope :/ | 18:36 |
| junglizer | I would get the nokia logo and it would never move past that | 18:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hrm | 18:37 |
| junglizer | by freaking out, I mean that I noticed the icons on the home screen moving around and disappearing/reappearing | 18:39 |
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| gabriel9 | not bad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi_AAqi0RZM&feature=youtu.be | 18:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxaSQWEa61Y | 18:42 |
| junglizer | it's a good soundtrack | 18:43 |
| gabriel9 | cyber punk :) | 18:43 |
| junglizer | heh yeah, I'm in #reddit-cyberpunk right now too | 18:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the dxhr soundtrack definitely feels very soundtrack (as opposed to ordinary music), but it has some pretty neat tracks | 18:44 |
| junglizer | I got the soundtrack when I bought the delux edition on steam | 18:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | /r/cyberpunk has a channel now? | 18:44 |
| junglizer | indeed | 18:45 |
| gabriel9 | nice stuff | 18:45 |
| junglizer | /r/djs and /r/edmproduction do as well, and those are the others I frequent | 18:45 |
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| gabriel9 | lol, they rewiew comments now on conversation.nokia.com | 19:12 |
| gabriel9 | only good comments are good now | 19:12 |
| junglizer | lol | 19:12 |
| junglizer | i was bummed that @nokia never retweeted my stuff about the N9 | 19:13 |
| gabriel9 | my too :/ | 19:13 |
| junglizer | all the dickwagging posts about the Lumia irritated me so I just tweeted a bunch about the N9 | 19:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol | 19:14 |
| gabriel9 | hell i was doing also | 19:15 |
| gabriel9 | ask them alot | 19:15 |
| gabriel9 | but now they shut me down | 19:15 |
| gabriel9 | and i give 500€ for their phone | 19:16 |
| gabriel9 | loooooooool | 19:16 |
| gabriel9 | can you comment articles on conversations.nokia ? | 19:17 |
| junglizer | https://twitter.com/#!/_dDoS_/status/193371471240900610 | 19:18 |
| gabriel9 | i have a colegue which is designer, all apple stuff and strange outfit | 19:21 |
| gabriel9 | and when he come to my office he alswas grab my N9 and play with it | 19:21 |
| gabriel9 | and say: "This is great" | 19:21 |
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| wirwe | hey guys, trying to connect my N9 to my laptop (debian wheezy/testing), it recognizes it as a floppy and not as an usb-medium. do you have an idea about that? | 19:30 |
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| junglizer | wirwe: no idea | 19:44 |
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| gabriel9 | try other USB port | 19:50 |
| junglizer | headed home for lunch, going to peep the phone and see if it's charged more | 19:50 |
| gabriel9 | also try on other PC, so you can eliminate one variable | 19:50 |
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| gabriel9 | junglizer: gl | 20:55 |
| gabriel9 | :) | 20:55 |
| wirwe | `/lib/udev/rules.d/91-permissions.rules` has the following line. | 21:02 |
| wirwe | SUBSYSTEM=="block", ATTRS{removable}=="1", GROUP="floppy" | 21:03 |
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| junglizer | well I ghetto rigged my microSIM back into my N900 | 22:40 |
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| junglizer | used a bit of electical tape and plastic | 22:40 |
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| tgalal | Hi, quick question, I'm using invoker to launch single instance app, which is working great. But the app when closed, it hides itself and runs in background. So when the app icon is clicked again, nothing shows, because obviously I need someway to notify the app that it's being invoked again, so it would show itself. So this is where I'm stuck, any help? | 23:00 |
| jonni | so your using -s flag or single-instance command? | 23:01 |
| tgalal | yeah single-instance | 23:02 |
| jonni | well that should send the maximize event to your background app, so maybe your app is ignoring the event to come to foreground? | 23:03 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | this is why you should be using telepathy... | 23:03 |
| tgalal | if the app is in background (as in doesn't have focus) it works great. The thing is the app when user attempts to close it, I just hide it instead of totally closing it. So it's totally hidden. So I'd need to notify it somehow to show itself | 23:04 |
| tgalal | itsnotabigtruck: lol I still have no regrets :P | 23:05 |
| jonni | maybe you should just minimize it to background like normal application? as your will run into troubles if framework cannot find the window id of your app that is running in background, forexample uninstalling of the app will fail. | 23:06 |
| jonni | (which also means that it will fail ovi store QA) | 23:08 |
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| tgalal | jonni: but how do I minimize it as normal application if a user attempts to close it | 23:10 |
| tgalal | jonni: that's my aim, close should hide, not close | 23:10 |
| jonni | heh, I'll have a new hw mod in mind, I think that I'll try to convert one of my N9's to have wireless charging feature :), lets see how it goes, I'll post pics when I have progress. | 23:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~#harmattan flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Flashing_N9 | 23:11 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer: okay | 23:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~flashing | 23:12 |
| infobot | well, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Flashing_N9 | 23:12 |
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| jonni | tgalal: well you capture swipe down and send iconify x11 event to framework. | 23:13 |
| jonni | (that way users 'close' just minimizes in background, just like swipe left and right | 23:14 |
| jonni | ) | 23:14 |
| jonni | (altough then you need to provide another way to close your application if you want to pass ovi qa, as you cannot submit application that cannot be closed). | 23:16 |
| jonni | ie adding quit option in menu | 23:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | lol, the man of the day is here =) | 23:17 |
| ZogG_laptop | btw would it be opensource? | 23:18 |
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| tgalal | ZogG_laptop: most probably not in first release, I've to see whatsapp's reaction first hehe | 23:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | tgalal: affraid they might close the door? | 23:28 |
| ZogG_laptop | btw the TMO thread is epic =P | 23:30 |
| tgalal | ZogG_laptop: afraid I get sued :D so less damage if no source is out at that time I guess | 23:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | tgalal: tell them that there is no internet in egypt and it's not you | 23:31 |
| ZogG_laptop | =P | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | tgalal: IANAL but I'd guess it's exactly the other way round | 23:34 |
| tgalal | DocScrutinizer how so? | 23:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | without source you're actively distributing and taking responsibility of a pkg that infringes TOS of some other site. With source available you could deny responsibility for the source and just agree to stop deploying the binary | 23:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | but anyway, IANAL! | 23:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | lol http://playthroughline.com/scripts/deus-ex/ spoilers if you haven't played deus ex | 23:39 |
| CreamyG31337 | i wish this chan wasn't logged | 23:39 |
| CreamyG31337 | i don't even want to give advice about how not to get sued | 23:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | then don't do it | 23:40 |
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| djszapi | hey, say: I have an enumeration value for different items in c++, but I would like to list the enumeration string in qml for instance in a ui element so that the application user can select an item in there. What would be the best way to get the enum string in qml ? | 23:41 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i don't know about qml, but in general there's no way to get the name of an enum constant in c++ | 23:42 |
| * DocScrutinizer idly wonders what makes CreamyG31337 think the 181 users now online in this chan won't act in an unpleasant way on anything posted here, while a hypothetical 50 others that care to read chanlog would want to | 23:42 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | though you can do some magic with macros that would store the name of the enum constant somewhere it could be looked up later | 23:42 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: there is | 23:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i mean, an enum is just a glorified set of constants | 23:43 |
| djszapi | take a look at QMetaEnum... | 23:43 |
| djszapi | you might wanna get to know QMetaEnum really :) | 23:43 |
| tgalal | CreamyG31337: lol I'm screwed | 23:43 |
| ZogG_laptop | CreamyG31337: there is private query | 23:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | djszapi: that isn't straight C++, that's some weird qt moc thing | 23:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so why don't you use that | 23:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | sounds like you already have the solution | 23:44 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you do need to specify Q_ENUMS apparently however so that moc picks it up | 23:44 |
| djszapi | itsnotabigtruck: well, I hoped for a simpler solution. | 23:45 |
| djszapi | otherwise I will just hard code the values for now. | 23:45 |
| djszapi | ZogG_laptop: tried kanagram ? | 23:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | djszapi: not yet, my gf would be a tester =P | 23:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | tgalal: if you completely hide your app, then you probably have to implement your own "single-instance". I.E. allow app to start multiple instances, then *inside* app check if there's another instance already running, and if yes signal this other instance to open up new window, then terminate this instance | 23:46 |
| djszapi | :) | 23:46 |
| djszapi | anyway, a little bit of zzz for me. Good Night! | 23:47 |
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| CreamyG31337 | tgalal, i'm just saying, if the source is already in the open, they are less likely to go after you. If the source is closed, they are likely to go after you to keep it that way. i am not sure if hiding it from them is worth it, there are some open implementations of msn and skype and i don't see those guys getting harassed | 23:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | they're no less likely to go after you either way, but releasing as open source hedges against that possibility | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and makes it possible to port your work to other platforms | 23:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | and to keep code if ou would be arrested =P | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | which would be extremely easy to do had you implemented your setup the right way | 23:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | like with PS3 scene | 23:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ZogG_laptop: ehm, no | 23:49 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no arrests, we're not talking about criminal stuff | 23:49 |
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| ZogG_laptop | itsnotabigtruck: actually Sony arrested people | 23:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | and confscated computers for search | 23:49 |
| CreamyG31337 | yeah he doesn't live in usa thank god | 23:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *sony* didn't arrest anyone | 23:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but in any case, reverse engineering isn't a crime | 23:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | itsnotabigtruck: they asked for order for arrest =) | 23:50 |
| itsnotabigtruck | period | 23:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | and german police did the job | 23:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, with DCMA and similar laws, it can be if it's a drm system... | 23:51 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but whatsapp isn't a drm system so never mind that | 23:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | itsnotabigtruck: i don't think whatsapp has the guts as Sony and strength | 23:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | new PSN's agreement has the part when if you agree you an't sue them =) | 23:52 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | iac if you were concerned about legal issues, you should have RE'd the whatsapp protocol and published specs anonymously | 23:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or better yet, had someone else do so | 23:53 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the latter case is "clean room reverse engineering" | 23:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | clean room reverse ingineering? | 23:53 |
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