IRC log of #harmattan for Sunday, 2012-04-29

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ElleoX-Fade: not sure if you already know this, but everything in apps for meego's "internet" category also shows up in the "other" category, both on the website and in the app01:01
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Sazpaimon"Nokia Public Transport for Nokia N9"01:17
Sazpaimonoh man01:17
SazpaimonOH MAN01:17
Sazpaimongoodbye google maps01:17
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itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon: city support is pretty lame though01:27
Sazpaimonwho cares01:27
itsnotabigtruckbut it's cool that they finally ported it01:27
Sazpaimonit supports all the cities I live in01:27
itsnotabigtruckand it supports none of the cities i live in :p basically unless you're in a capital/very major city it won't support it01:28
Sazpaimonits like when people tell me "x carrier covers more of the country"01:28
Sazpaimonim like okay01:28
Sazpaimonnext time i'm in bumfuck wyoming i'll keep that in mind01:28
Sazpaimonof course its not the N9's fault01:28
itsnotabigtruckwell, that's different, because you want it to work everywhere you travel01:28
Sazpaimonall of nokia public transit has the same coverage01:29
itsnotabigtruckwell, it's either nokia's or nokia's data provider's fault01:29
itsnotabigtrucknot sure if they're sourcing data from a 3rd party or direct from transit agencies01:29
Sazpaimonthey're going direct01:29
Sazpaimonat least thats what I read on their forums01:30
Sazpaimonfrom the developers01:30
CreamyG31337wow it works in edmonton01:30
CreamyG31337not calgary01:30
CreamyG31337that's funny01:30
Sazpaimonthey cant just use GTFS data i guess01:30
Sazpaimoncontract issues01:30
CreamyG31337no vancouver either01:31
Sazpaimonthe fact is though01:31
Sazpaimonthis app is absoutely useless for anyone that's *supposed* to own an N901:31
CreamyG31337lol works for "denmark"01:31
Sazpaimonso the fact that we even got it is astounding01:31
Sazpaimonalso the app said it supports NJ transit when i launched it01:32
Sazpaimonand that isnt on the site01:32
Sazpaimonso its possible01:32
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itsnotabigtruckSazpaimon: what sort of contract issues?01:36
Sazpaimonwell, many transit agencies have specific license agreements with their APIs01:36
itsnotabigtrucklooks like the local bus agency has a public gtfs dataset01:36
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itsnotabigtruckso does the bus agency at home01:37
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Sazpaimoni think nokia is playing it safe and reaching out to agencies directly01:38
Sazpaimonlooks like it supports more cities just without timetables01:40
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itsnotabigtruckwhat good is "without timetables"...what would that actually mean01:41
CreamyG31337go to this bus stop... if busses are running today, you might see one01:42
Sazpaimonitsnotabigtruck, probably equal to the public transit in the maps app01:43
itsnotabigtruckyeah, that isn't so hot really01:43
CreamyG31337i really can't imagine01:43
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itsnotabigtruckmaybe i'll post some links to gtfs info pages in the beta labs forum though i'm not getting my hopes up01:43
itsnotabigtrucklooked over the ToU for the data of interest and didn't see anything that would be hugely objectionable01:43
itsnotabigtrucke.g. you must turn over 75% of your profits to us, mua ha ha01:43
CreamyG31337nokia has no profits so that's fine :P01:44
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Sazpaimoni just tested a route in calgary01:46
Sazpaimonit gave me a timetable, but not a start time01:47
Sazpaimonjust a route time I think01:47
CreamyG31337yeah like "your trip will take an hour" but really doesn't include the time spent waiting01:48
Sazpaimonand it tells you what routes to take01:49
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Sazpaimonthats not so bad i guess01:53
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Sazpaimonsurprisingly, it works for OCTA as well01:55
Sazpaimonwhich isnt liste01:55
Sazpaimonit's in orange county california, where public transit is kind of an afterthought01:55
Sazpaimonwith timetable support01:55
Sazpaimonchecking the listing, it says it;s listed as "estimated" routing01:56
Sazpaimonso theyre getting better01:58
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djszapibeford: ping13:25
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djszapiJaffa_: got to a Mac PC ?14:48
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aquariusElleo, ping17:47
aquariusIn a Python program running on N9, can I use subprocess.Popen to invoke another Python program in the background?17:49
aquariusor is there a better way to run a background process?17:49
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itsnotabigtruckaquarius: well, what are you trying to do18:33
itsnotabigtruckmaybe you want a thread18:33
itsnotabigtruckthough python threading kinda sucks due to the GIL18:33
aquariusitsnotabigtruck, it's to kick off a download18:34
itsnotabigtruckoh right18:34
aquariusI don't really want a thread, 'cos (a) threads are a horrific pain in the hole, and (b) if I exit my program, the download will stop18:34
itsnotabigtruckthat wouldn't solve the problem18:34
aquariusso I have a little downloader program which works (!)18:34
aquarius*and* it shows progress in TransferUI18:34
aquariusyay me :)18:34
aquariusbut I'm not sure how to kick it off18:35
itsnotabigtruckanyway, yeah, that's probably what you want...might need to do something special to keep ti from getting killed when the parent exits18:35
aquariusalso, I'm not sure how to *get* to the transferUI other than programmatically telling it to show :P18:35
itsnotabigtruckalso actually, you probably don't want Popen because that's if you want the output18:35
aquariusI am in two minds about whether I want the output18:35
aquariusbecause the downloader ought to be able ot report back to the main program when it's finished18:36
aquariusand having both of them communicate over D-Bus is another pain in the hole that I'd like to avoid if I can ;)18:36
itsnotabigtruckhmm, yeah, you do need subprocess.Popen18:37
aquariusthe subprocess approach is annoying because I can't tell where the output from the subprocess *goes*18:37
itsnotabigtruckbecause the other ones always wait18:37
aquariuseven if I set stdout=sys.stdout in subprocess.Popen I still can't see the downloader's output :(18:37
aquariuswhich makes it hard to work out why it isn't working ;)18:38
itsnotabigtrucksp = subprocess.Popen(['/abs/path/to/exe'], close_fds=True)18:38
itsnotabigtrucklike that18:38
aquariuswhat's close_fds?18:39
itsnotabigtruckthere might be some complexities to avoid making zombie processes18:39
aquariusi don't know as much about how processes work as I should do, I think.18:39
itsnotabigtruckit prevents the files open in your main program from being carried over to the subprocess18:39
itsnotabigtruckwhich is an artifact of how process launching in linux works18:39
itsnotabigtruckyou don't spawn a process on linux like you do in windows18:39
itsnotabigtruckinstead, you split your process in two, then load the new executable over the current one18:40
itsnotabigtruckthen the original process waits for the other process and/or keeps going18:40
itsnotabigtruckand loading the executable allows stuff to be carried over from the original process, like open files18:41
aquariusI did wonder about forking instead of starting a whole separate process18:42
itsnotabigtruckmaybe you should use a thread to spawn and wait on the subprocess18:42
aquariusbut I don't really grok forking properly :)18:42
aquarius(er, obviously forking *is* a separate process, of course)18:43
itsnotabigtruckthen, when the subprocess finishes, then let the main thread know18:43
aquariusbut does a forked process inherit the QApplication from the main one? etc, etc18:43
itsnotabigtruckthe idea is that if it returns an error you wat to be able to pop up a box18:43
aquariusargh, threading :(18:43
itsnotabigtruckhow do grob and transfer ui handle failed downloads18:43
itsnotabigtrucke.g. what happens if a download blows up halfway through18:43
aquariustransferui has a "download failed" setting18:43
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itsnotabigtruckis there any sort of pop-up notification?18:44
aquariusnot afaict18:44
aquariuswell, sorta18:44
aquariusyou get the little red arrow in the notification bar at the top18:44
aquariusI think18:44
aquariusit is difficult to test18:44
aquariussince I had to rtfs for the C++ transferUI class and then translate it into Python and talk to D-Bus directly ;p18:44
itsnotabigtruckanyway...i guess you could just leave all the zombie processes behind and they'll be reaped when the main app exits18:44
aquariusso zombies get reaped but still-running-live processes don't, correct?18:45
itsnotabigtruckright, a zombie is something that gets left behind, if i understand it, if the parent process is still running but the child process exited18:47
itsnotabigtruckand the parent process didn't wait on the child process18:47
villageryou don't have to wait, in addition to wait() you can also call the subprocess object's poll() method... any operation that retrieves the child's return code would reap the child18:51
aquariusvillager, what I want is to kick off the downloader in such a way that quitting the main program doesn't quit the downloader, but I can still see the downloader's output somewhere (ideally in the console where I started the main program)... and I don't know the best way to do that :)18:53
itsnotabigtruckvillager: well, the poll function is just doing a non-waiting waitpid or something like that18:54
itsnotabigtruckso it still counts as "waiting" :p18:54
villageraquarius: well I don't see anything wrong with the subprocess approach18:55
villageritsnotabigtruck: sure, but it's too easy to confuse the newbies if you don't say such things... the waitpid stuff isn't exactly intuitive18:56
aquariushar! "no module named dbus". :)18:56
aquariusthat'd explain it :P18:57
aquariusso, new question: how am I supposed, as a user, to *get* to the transferUI?18:58
aquariusshould apps provide a way of showing it or something?18:58
aquariusha haa! and downloading works. sweet.18:59
villageraquarius: the child isn't killed just because the main program exits... under certain circumstances, such as the parent being a controlling terminal or something, the child may receive a SIGHUP, but even that's not necessarily fatal to the child if it catches it or ignores it or whatever18:59
aquariusstill don't know how to best integrate the transferui into my app :)18:59
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villageraquarius: for a non-terminal app, it's probably not a problem19:00
aquariusaha, the little white transfer arrow appears. Nice.19:02
villageras for transferui... no idea19:02
aquariusso, advice sought: how should my separate downloader program tell its main program that it's finished?19:03
aquariusI could have the downloader print "it is done" on stdout or something, but that'd require the main program to *listen* to stdout, and I don't know how to do that nonblockingly.19:03
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villageraquarius: are you using Qt?19:06
aquariusvillager, I am19:07
aquariuspyside + qt + qml19:08
aquarius(and I don't know whether enabling the main program to listen to the downloader's stdout will screw up the downloader-keeps-working-if-the-main-program-quits policy)19:09
villageraquarius: well the subprocess object has a stdout object that you want to read from... I think you can give the fd of that stdout object to QSocketNotifier or something and it'll call your function when there's something to read or when the child terminates (stdout gets EOF-ed when the child terminates)19:10
villageraquarius: otherwise you could use a timer or something to poll, I suppose19:10
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villageraquarius: hmm, or you could use QProcess instead of Python's subprocess stuff, might work too19:14
aquariusinteresting, I could do that19:15
aquariusneed to read up on it, obviously, but that might not be a bad idea; it'll be better integrated19:15
rzri have a sample for that if you want19:25
rzri made a rsync ui in python19:25
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rzri just need to upload it somewhere19:26
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* aquarius reads about QProcess19:56
aquariushard to tell whether quitting the main process will kill a child QProcess :(19:56
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djszapibeford: ping20:18
befordhola djszapi20:18
djszapibeford: you are apparently not in #ocs, but wanted to ask you for a Mac test.20:18
befordoh yea20:19
beforddifferent IRC clients, need to set the channels  on all of them20:19
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: better ignore sighup in the child process20:34
Jaffa_djszapi: Sorry, Qt SDK needed XCode, which turned out to be more involved :-/20:35
itsnotabigtruckoh, also, better catch SIGTERM and abort the download20:43
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djszapiJaffa_: np20:47
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Elleoaquarius: I just used subprocess to launch my external configuration program with statusnet-meego, but I used it inconjunction with invoker rather than launching it directly20:48
Elleoaquarius: like this: but I'm not suggesting that was necessarily the smart thing to do ;)20:48
Elleoaquarius: for your purposes with a separate downloader thing running perhaps it'd be better to be communicate over dbus though20:49
itsnotabigtruckoh could use invoker nowait20:49
itsnotabigtruckdo that20:49
Elleoand if you setup a .service file dbus will automatically launch your downloader when you first try making a call to it to tell it to download something20:50
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: /usr/bin/invoker -te -n /absolute/path/to/exe20:50
itsnotabigtruckone disadvantage, that'll prevent that exe from inheriting the aegis credentials of the launching process20:51
Elleoeven if that exe's from the same aegis signed package as the original?20:52
itsnotabigtruckoh, also, if the executable is qt based you could boost it and use -tq instead for slightly faster launch speed20:52
itsnotabigtrucki'm not sure if that's a good idea or ot20:52
itsnotabigtruckalso by qt based, i mean a c++ program using qt20:53
itsnotabigtrucknot a python program using pyside or whatever20:53
itsnotabigtruckelleo: yeah, invoker resets the aegis credentials to the policy set for the binary being launched20:53
itsnotabigtrucksame package is irrelevant20:54
itsnotabigtruckalso that can cause some interesting results20:54
itsnotabigtruckfor example a few people have written python programs and neglected to include the shebang line, because they're noobs20:54
Elleobut wouldn't the binary he's launching have the same credentials set in its policy?20:55
itsnotabigtruckthen they find that their aegis policy kicks in with invoker but not without20:55
itsnotabigtruckbecause invoker activates the credentials based on the path20:55
djszapiJaffa_: beford can help.20:55
itsnotabigtruckwhereas the kernel only activates the credentials when a binary/script is executed directly20:55
itsnotabigtruckand no, not necessarily...20:56
itsnotabigtrucke.g. if aquarius starts storing the login data in SignOn and protects it with an aegis credential20:56
Elleobut either way he shouldn't need any extra credentials for a download manager would he? if all he's doing is grabbing a url and dumping it in MyDocs/ somewhere20:56
Elleoah, hadn't thought of that20:56
itsnotabigtruckone approach might be to grant the aegis credential to the main app but not the downloader20:56
itsnotabigtruckthen allow the downloader to inherit the credential and retrieve the signon data20:56
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itsnotabigtruckthere really isn't any approach safe however from someone swapping out the downloader, then causing the main app to run the downloader, to grab the oauth token20:59
itsnotabigtruckthat's kind of a fringe scenario though20:59
* Elleo quickly hacks together steal-aquarius-ubuntu-one-files.deb20:59
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itsnotabigtruckanyway, i think invoker -te -n should solve the zombie process problem21:06
itsnotabigtruckyou just wait for invoker to exit, and then invoker takes care of the spawned process for you21:07
itsnotabigtrucki hope21:07
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aquariuser, sorry, back -- my parents rang :)21:10
* aquarius reads scrollbacl21:10
aquariuswhat's invoker?21:11
aquariusthe downloader does not need the credentials21:11
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aquariusso I do not have to worry about the downloader being able to retrieve the credentials from the main app21:11
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: it's what you should be launching your program with, for one21:11
itsnotabigtruckthe main one21:12
itsnotabigtruckit prevents people from launching multiple instances of it21:12
aquariusha! At the moment in scratchbox I launch it with meego-run, and on the phone itself I'm just doing "python"21:12
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aquariusnever heard of invoker :)21:12
itsnotabigtruckthe desktop file should end up looking like /usr/bin/invoker -te -s /opt/soandso/soandso.py21:12
itsnotabigtruckor something like that21:13
itsnotabigtruckalso needs to be +x and have a shebang line21:13
aquariusah, right. I haven't thought about packaging it up yet; I want to mae the thing work first :)21:14
aquariusI like the splash screen idea though21:14
aquariusand single-instance21:14
itsnotabigtrucksplash screen is a bad idea unless the program starts slowly21:14
itsnotabigtruckbut single instance is important21:14
aquariuswhat's -te ?21:14
itsnotabigtrucktype = executable21:14
aquariusah OK21:15
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itsnotabigtruckthe other types try to run your program faster by loading it as a library and caching stuff21:15
itsnotabigtruckyou don't want that because it can't work with python, for one21:15
aquariusd for QML, surely? Or does it count as an executable 'cos it's a python app (even though it happens to use qml)?21:15
itsnotabigtruckthe qmlness is irrelevant21:15
aquariusthis is a rollercoaster of a learning experience, this :)21:15
itsnotabigtruckyou can't make libraries with python, so d/q/m can't possibly work21:15
itsnotabigtrucklibraries in the sense of actual loadable .so files21:16
itsnotabigtrucksince python is a scripting language21:16
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aquariusElleo, to confirm, yes, the downloader just grabs a URL and stores it in mydocs. It gets handed a temporary already-authed URL, it doesn't do the auth itself.21:23
Elleookay cool, aegis should muck you about then21:24
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aquariusI don't know anything about using the credentials manager on the phone, but that's the next stage after I've sussed out communicating back and forth with the downloader :)21:32
aquariushm, thinking about it, I don't actually need communication, per se, with the downloader, do I?21:35
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: oh, so the downloader/uploader doesn't need to bother with auth?21:35
itsnotabigtruckthat makes everything so much simpler21:36
itsnotabigtruckbe mindful that process command lines are world readable21:36
Elleoaquarius: not if the downloader is doing all its status notification via the transfer ui21:36
aquariusI need to know that it's started (so I can show "this is downloading" in the main UI) and that it's finished (so I can change to "this is downloadED" in the main UI) and once it's finished I can check for the downloaded file; if that exists, it worked, if that didn't exist, there was an error.21:36
aquariusthat's four hundred times easier, because now all I have to do is trap program exit.21:36
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aquariusand subprocess must surely give me a way of doing that21:37
aquariusin the limit case I can just poll the pid of it :)21:37
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Elleoaquarius: you don't even need to trap the program exit if the downloader itself talks to transferui21:37
Elleothat way it can show progress too21:37
itsnotabigtruckyeah, the idea is that the main program would fire and forget21:37
aquariusElleo, the downloader does talk to transferui and show progress, that's fine21:37
aquariusthe problem is that the main program should, if you already *have* a file, not start a new download of that file if you press the filename21:38
itsnotabigtruckyou might want to, at a minimum, blank out the URL in argv in the downloader21:38
Elleoah right21:38
itsnotabigtruckor maybe pass it in an env variable and do unsetenv21:38
itsnotabigtruckand hmm, right21:38
aquariusso it needs to know when the downloader's finished.21:38
Elleoaquarius: surely it needs to know when its started for that21:39
Elleosince you don't want to start downloading it a second time if its partway through either21:39
aquariusElleo, yep21:39
aquariusElleo, but pressing an already downloaded file should launch it. Probably. :)21:39
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Elleoah, right21:39
itsnotabigtruckor you could just do what the browsers do and let the user download it many times21:39
itsnotabigtruckname it like foo (1).ext21:39
aquariusitsnotabigtruck, ya, technically having that URL visible is a little bit of a security problem, because a different app could grab that URL and pass it off to somewhere on the web. However, URLs are time-limited. So I might do a little bit to work around this (blank out argv in the downloader, as you suggest) but I'm not *too* worried agbou tit21:40
aquariusyeah, I could do foo(1).ext, sure... but I'd like to avoid someone "double-clicking" on a filename21:40
aquariusso one press should change the filename so you know it's downloading...21:41
aquariusbut then you need to know when to turnthat "it is downloading" indicator off again :)21:41
Elleohow in to the whole synchronisation of things are you going to get? i.e. if a users changes a file will they be able to upload an update version?21:42
Elleoif so have a lot of foo (1), foo (2), etc. could make that very confusing21:42
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Elleoalthough perhaps that'd be better handled via an ubuntu one sharing plugin21:44
Elleoso you could upload anything that has sharing support21:44
Elleosorry, just thought I'd make things more complicated for you :P21:44
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itsnotabigtrucka lot of blogs are about to get p0wned21:45
itsnotabigtruckalso, is this supposed to sync files, or just be like a remote file storage21:46
aquariusremote file storage, really -- you can browse your personal cloud and then hit a particular file to download it21:47
aquariusactual syncing is more complex.21:47
aquariusElleo looked at porting the actual syncdaemon from Ubuntu, but that's more work than I want to do right now and I don't know enough about meego to do it :)21:47
itsnotabigtruckwhere "personal cloud" means your storage space :p21:48
itsnotabigtruckbah cloud21:48
Elleoyeah, I think just having a separate share plugin for uploading stuff would be nice though21:48
ElleoI might have a look at doing that one myself, since I'm thinking of doing one for mediagoblin21:48
itsnotabigtruck"cloud" is mostly a rebranding of stuff that's been around for basically forever, sometimes with a new coat of paint21:48
Elleoit'd be cool to be able to share jokosher projects on ubuntu one straight from your phone21:49
itsnotabigtruckoh yeah, so you can upload files directly from the ubuntu one app -or- activate the sharing plugin to upload from other apps21:49
itsnotabigtrucki like it21:49
itsnotabigtruckhow does the existing dropbox integration work21:50
itsnotabigtruckjust make it like that21:50
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aquariusI haven't used the dropbox app on meego21:51
Elleoyeah, that was my thought21:51
aquariusmy plan is to do the basics first: allow downloading of files to the phone, which will be in itself useful21:52
aquariusthen download whole folders, then upload, then automatic photo upload, then... whatever comes next21:52
itsnotabigtruckbtw aquarius: if you want any help on accounts/signon oauth/etc. just ask me, i've messed with that stuff a bit21:52
aquariusstopping at some point when I get bored or too busy ;)21:52
itsnotabigtrucki think you have to have an accounts plugin to have a sharing plugin21:52
aquariusI know nothing of how to store account data on meego, which I need to know about21:52
aquariusoauth I'm already doing, no problem there :)21:52
itsnotabigtruckwell, if you use the account system you'd replace your oauth stuff with nokia's21:53
aquariusthe app currently allows me to browse my files and download individual ones, which is fantastic21:53
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itsnotabigtruckso when the user launches the app, you'd check if there's an account added yet21:53
aquariushow does nokia's oauth stuff help me?21:53
itsnotabigtruckif not, you give the user a button to launch the account add stuff21:53
itsnotabigtruckthe user types their username and hits the log in button, which loads up the ubuntu oauth page21:53
aquariusoh, right, to get an oauth token in the first place? I use the Ubuntu single sign on API to do that; I don't need to bounce people in and out of the browser, fortunately :)21:54
itsnotabigtruckuser logs in and signon takes care of acquiring the token21:54
itsnotabigtruckthe token is stored in signon21:54
itsnotabigtruckthen your app retrieves the token using the signon api21:54
itsnotabigtruckah...well, you could write a custom account plugin that uses that api21:54
itsnotabigtruckor just switch to using oauth21:54
itsnotabigtruckthe nokia stuff takes care of the browser ui stuff21:54
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itsnotabigtruckone complication is that like i was saying above, the nokia code wants to know the username before it loads the oauth page21:55
itsnotabigtruckand it passes the username as a query string parameter21:55
itsnotabigtruckthat works on twitter but not on most other oauth services21:55
itsnotabigtruckideally, ubuntu's oauth page reads that query string parameter and prefills/locks the username box21:55
itsnotabigtruckthat isn't part of the oauth standard21:56
aquariusyeah, Ubuntu SSO provides a specific API to get an oauth token via username and password, without having to do the oauth dance21:57
aquariuswhich is nice.21:57
itsnotabigtruckwhat about the username thing though21:57
itsnotabigtruckbecause the oauth dance is probably the easiest way to go21:57
aquariusI can do the oauth dance if I need to, but that'll mean that the user has to type their username and password into the form on the website (ideally yes we'd fill in the username from the querystring, but we currently do not)21:58
aquariuscan I use the accounts stuff just like the keyring? where I say "here is a secret, store it for me"?21:58
itsnotabigtrucksort of yeah...if you insist on doing it the non-oauth approach, you'd probably want to write a signon plugin21:59
itsnotabigtruckwhich would then implement the ubuntu token acquisition stuff21:59
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itsnotabigtrucknot sure the oauth plugin can be used without it handling the oauth token acquisition22:00
itsnotabigtruckthere is a password plugin that basically lets you store a string22:01
aquariusthat'd be more the thing, I think22:01
aquariushow do I use this stuff?22:01
itsnotabigtruckbut then you have to clone the logic between your app and the account plugin, i think22:01
itsnotabigtruckand that makes the account plugin significantly more complicated because the way those work is very annoying22:01
aquariusthis is sounding a lot like the voice of the universe saying "just store your token in a QML database" :)22:02
itsnotabigtruckwell, here's what i'm thinking22:02
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itsnotabigtrucklogin logic goes into a signon plugin22:02
itsnotabigtruckaccount plugin can be done with pure xml, relying on the signon plugin to do the heavy lifting22:02
itsnotabigtruckmain app calls into accounts/signon libraries to retrieve the token22:03
itsnotabigtruckif the token's expired, then the signon plugin automatically renews it (popping up the ui to rerequest the password)22:03
itsnotabigtruckand then the account plugin registers the sharing plugin22:04
itsnotabigtrucki think several of the built-in nokia services are implemented in that fashion22:04
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aquariusthat sounds easy22:05
Elleothis approach isn't taking into account aquarius' aversion to writing C++ ;)22:06
aquariusy'know, in theory :)22:06
aquariusI have to do it in c++?22:06
Elleowhich would probably be necessary for writing the signon plugin22:06
aquariusthat's a nono then :P22:06
aquariusthe voice of the universe gets one notch louder. :P22:06
SpeedEvilIsn't the voice of the notch universe blocky?22:06
itsnotabigtruckanyway, yeah, my approach is going to involve significant amounts of c or c++22:07
Elleoperhaps someone should write a signon plugin that just proxies everything out to a designated dbus service22:07
Elleoso the bulk of the work can then be done via a $language_of_choice program22:08
Elleo(I'm not volunteering.)22:08
itsnotabigtruckor just suck it up and implement it...i don't think it's actually all that bad22:10
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aquariusyou may not, since you can actually *write* C++ :)22:10
itsnotabigtrucksignon takes care of all the password prompting stuff for you22:10
itsnotabigtruckqt makes the string processing/http/etc. stuff not so painful22:10
aquariusthis is not really a question of laziness so much as inability; I'm prepared to hat up if I need to for certain things (I have the first python program ever to use the transferui, don't I? :)) but "learn c++ first" is a bit of a high bar :)22:11
itsnotabigtruck looks like the api is pretty much just a get request22:12
itsnotabigtruckoh, and how did you get python talking to transferui?22:12
itsnotabigtruckalso an advantage of not using signon's oauth feature is that you can probably be backward compatible with pr1.1 this way22:12
aquariusby rtf-transferui.cpp-s to work out what all the D-Bus calls are and then implementing calls to the ones I need in Python22:13
itsnotabigtruckoh, also22:13
itsnotabigtruckyou could probably clone over a lot of the signon oauth plugin code22:13
itsnotabigtruckit's lgpl22:13
itsnotabigtruckunless it's gpl, i forget22:13
itsnotabigtruckit's lgpl222:13
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aquariusthe Ubuntu SSO API to get a token, given a username and password, is indeed just a GET request, which is why I'm happy to do it myself rather than involve a load of C++ and the accounts system ;)22:15
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: it also makes the signon plugin quite simple though22:18
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itsnotabigtruckthe logic ends up being22:18
itsnotabigtruckdo i have a token? if yes, return it, if no, request a token, then store it, then return it22:19
itsnotabigtruckoh, also if you don't have a token, and you don't have a password, you have to pop up the password gui and obtain one22:20
aquariusI quite like the idea of having the n9 provide the enter-the-password screns for me so I don't have to do it myself22:20
itsnotabigtruckthe passwordplugin is pretty much the simplest signon plugin, note how much less overwhelming it is than that other one :p22:21
aquariusbut I don't want to *store* the password, per se; I want to ask for the username and password, use them to get an oauth token, and store the oauth token22:21
itsnotabigtruckof course that doesn't have any of the logic for retrieving a token22:21
itsnotabigtruckright, the entire point of this is to avoid storing the password22:21
aquariusjust so I understand this: I have to write a C++ plugin thingy to use the N9's accounts system at all?22:21
aquariusI can't just use it like, say, the gnome keyring?22:21
itsnotabigtruckyeah, because the system for adding the account is based entirely around c++ plugins22:23
itsnotabigtruckwhen the user adds the account, it asks for a username and password and you need to stick logic in there so that it accepts the password and uses it to retrieve a token22:24
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aquariusthat's quite annoying, then :(22:26
itsnotabigtruckaquarius: yeah :( most of the system assumes you'll be writing things in c++ with use of qt22:29
itsnotabigtruckand qml22:29
itsnotabigtruckor meegotouch22:29
aquariusya. This is why I keep hating Nokia, because I get all this "just use qml! it's all declarative and javascript and you like that!" and I say "yes, yes I do" and then when I need to do anything one inch complicated I have to write c++. :)22:29
teleshoesi fucking hate this inversion22:30
itsnotabigtruckright, because qml isn't a substitute for c++, even though people keep treating it that way22:30
teleshoeseverything needs gui code22:30
itsnotabigtruckthe real meat shouldn't be javascript and it shouldn't be in the qml files22:30
itsnotabigtruckthe qml is like a view that calls back into the real code22:30
teleshoesone should not need a gui toolkit to list contacts22:31
itsnotabigtruckand c++ is a terrible language in a lot of ways...qt makes it a lot less painful though22:31
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itsnotabigtruckthough qt is kind of weird in its own ways22:31
Elleoaquarius: I just shove my oauth tokens in gconf like a bad person for my python statusnet client22:31
itsnotabigtrucke.g. signals/slots and MOC, and it's non-use of exceptions22:31
teleshoesreally weird22:32
teleshoesno exceptions22:32
aquariusah, I feel a bit differently. I don't think QML should just be views, like empty templates and all the work happens in the back end, because that makes writing applications *hard*.22:32
aquariusNow, maybe that's a goal for meego, but if it is then I'm happy to say that it's not a system I wanna work with :)22:32
teleshoesi think there should be clean separation between the views and the business logic22:33
aquariuslots of people think writing and compiling c++ is not hard, which is good for them and I am envious of their skills, but I think I'm more representative of the general mass of stupid people than c++ programmers are ;)22:33
aquariusteleshoes, I'd have no problem with that approach if the business logic wasn't forced to be in c++ :)22:34
teleshoesc++ is a shitty language22:34
teleshoesbut you still need a programming language to program in22:34
aquariusteleshoes, see above conversation. If I want my application to integrate with the Meego accounts system, I am forced to write C++ to do it. Not Python with PySide, not JavaScript in QML views: C++. Which makes me unhappy.22:35
aquariusand JS is a programming language, and a good one at that,22:35
teleshoesnon-programmers shouldnt be the target for an application development framework22:35
teleshoesah, you just want a better lang than c++22:35
teleshoescomplete python bindings would be really nice22:35
itsnotabigtruckthe problem is that there's no replacement for c or c++22:35
aquariusI've got my whole U1 app here written in JavaScript in QML, apart from downloading the actual URLs to the filesystem and that's only in Python because I'm *obliged* to write it in Python ;)22:35
itsnotabigtruckand if there was, js certainly wouldn't be it22:35
aquariusteleshoes, not non-programmers... just normal programmers. :)22:36
teleshoesas in, not-c22:36
itsnotabigtruckthe problem is that c/c++ are the only languages that provide direct access to anything on the system22:36
aquariusitsnotabigtruck, as yesterday, we shall have to disagree with one another on whether JavaScript is a good language or not. :)22:36
itsnotabigtruckif you can do it, you can do it on one of those two22:36
teleshoesecmascript is a really interesting language22:36
itsnotabigtrucksure, something might be easier to do in python, or js, or haskell, or whatnot22:36
teleshoesthe problem with c22:37
teleshoesis SIMPLY22:37
teleshoesthat everyone uses it22:37
itsnotabigtruckbut then there's the rest of the things that you simply can't do, at least without dropping down to c and writing a bridge between the two22:37
itsnotabigtruckwhich kinda doesn't count because then we're writing c again :p22:37
teleshoesc is a terrible, terrible language22:37
aquariusthis is what D-Bus is for. I have no problem with, for example, the transferui library only being in C++, as it in fact is, because what it's *actually* doing is wrapping D-Bus calls and I can do that from Python if need be.22:38
itsnotabigtruckc can be main beefs with it are the terrible standard library, and the extreme pain of error handling22:38
teleshoesand typing?22:38
aquariusWhat I don't like is stuff where you are required to write a plugin in C++ because instead of exposing the API over D-Bus they did something else.22:38
itsnotabigtruckwell, you keep talking about normal programmers22:39
itsnotabigtrucki mean, imo a normal programmer should know c22:39
itsnotabigtruckeven if you don't use it all the time22:39
itsnotabigtruckyou need to know c to know the system, and knowing the system makes you a better programmer22:39
teleshoesonce all the code in the kernel is rewritten in a sensible programming language, normal programmers can stop knowing c22:40
aquariuswe shall agree to differ here, too, then :)22:41
teleshoesi agree c is a stupid language, but i dont see how you can say normal programmers shouldnt know c22:41
teleshoesits everywhere22:41
mpswhat would be a better language for the kernel that allows pointer manipulation etc?22:42
Elleoaquarius: see what you've done? now we have to rewrite the whole kernel in erlang before you can finish your app ;)22:42
teleshoeswhy the requirement of 'pointer manipulation'?22:42
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teleshoesyoure mandating c in your description22:42
itsnotabigtruckteleshoes: because it's vital for any kind of low level programming22:42
aquariusteleshoes, I'd view "normal programmers" as people writing, say, web applications, or mobile applications, the two big growth areas at the moment. Neither of those require any C at all, or any low-level knowledge, and I don't think they should do, either.22:43
teleshoessure, well, for von neumann architecture computers22:43
itsnotabigtruckwe need a better C that keeps its direct control and lack of requirement for heavy supporting code22:43
itsnotabigtruckwhich ends up being written in...C22:43
mpsso you're saying we should all move to lisp machines, or something?-)22:43
aquariusSure, the OS should be written in something like C, and hardcore hackers -- those who *write* the OS -- need to know it22:43
teleshoesheh, haskell22:43
aquariusand I am constantly impressed by people like that22:44
itsnotabigtruckmost languages have complicated functionality that directly eliminates any possibility of using them at the bottom of the system22:44
itsnotabigtruckC doesn't22:44
itsnotabigtruckyou don't even need to have any standard library at all for C to work22:44
aquariusbut I don't think that's me, and I don't think that that's the sort of people you need to attract in order to make a mobile OS viable, for example.22:44
itsnotabigtruckwell, right now there's a plague of crappy programmers getting into mobile precisely because it's a growth area22:44
itsnotabigtruckthey write low quality insecure code that gets people's phones owned22:45
aquariusat which point the discussion stops being technical and starts becoming philosophical: is it better to have a vibrant platform with a zillion apps that everyone wants to support but where most of the apps are bollocks, or is it better to have a plaform with only a few apps but they're all really good?22:46
aquariusnot naming any names here, cough, Android. ;)22:46
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itsnotabigtruckwell, ideally everybody would get pro overnight and start making awesome stuff all the time22:46
itsnotabigtruckof course, that ain't happening :p22:46
Elleoon that note I wish the ovi store had a way to filter out all the terrible "feed" apps that just display a single rss feed in an application :/22:47
aquariusyou can square that circle by having a zillion apps all of which are good if you're prepared to pay an army of reviewers, which you can do if you've, e.g., made five hundred billion dollars selling iPods22:47
itsnotabigtruckand if it did happen, that wouldn't be so good for me :)22:47
Elleojust about every category is flooded with them22:47
teleshoesi dont like apps22:47
teleshoeswhat i want is a compass in my phone22:48
teleshoesthink how cool it would be to point your phone at the night sky and read the names of the constellations22:49
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teleshoesare there phones with compasses?22:49
aquariusandroid phones all have them22:49
aquariusI think22:49
teleshoesi want one22:49
aquariuscertainly my Nexus S did22:49
aquariusand Google SkyMap does precisely what you're asking for22:50
teleshoeswhy doesnt the n9 have one, pouty-pout22:50
aquariusit's quite cool :)22:50
Elleodoesn't the n9 have a digital compass?22:50
teleshoes>>>> !22:50
teleshoesdoes it?22:50
Elleowell the n950 seems to22:50
teleshoeshow do i use it?22:50
teleshoeshow how how?22:50
Elleoteleshoes: install the compass app22:50
aquariusI wish the N9 had one so that I didn't have to walk 100 yards the wrong way down street and see the GPS dot move in the wrong direction before realising I'm walking hte wrong way ;)22:50
aquariusif it's got one I wish the bloody maps app used it :)22:50
teleshoesi dont use non-free software22:51
teleshoesif i can help it22:51
Elleothere's a more attractive one somewhere too22:51
itsnotabigtruckthe N9 has a compass22:51
itsnotabigtrucki don't know if there's a star chart app like what you're talking about22:51
itsnotabigtruckbut it definitely has a compass22:51
itsnotabigtruckgrab 'orienteering compass' from ovi22:52
teleshoesdid not know22:52
itsnotabigtrucki've had some funky results with it though22:52
teleshoesand so, there will, eventually, be a star chart type app22:52
itsnotabigtrucki got the compass app installed and it worked great22:52
itsnotabigtrucknext day, the needle was "stuck"22:52
itsnotabigtrucklike something weird happened to the compass readings22:52
itsnotabigtrucka few days later it started working again22:52
teleshoesgiant invisible space ship22:52
Elleowell stellarium was ported to the n900 a while back, perhaps someone will go to the effort of getting it working on the n922:53
itsnotabigtruckthe N9 has everything hardware-wise except a shiny new cpu22:53
itsnotabigtruckfor an expensive high end late 2011 phone, a 45nm omap3 is pretty lame22:53
Elleooh, it looks like stellarium might have been ported to the n9 already:
itsnotabigtruckbut it does do the job well enough, and a lot of the android phones only have these overkill embedded cpus because android is slow22:54
Elleoalbeit as a £1 download22:54
Elleodunno if it uses the compass though22:54
Elleothe n900 version used the accelerometers for up/down view changes22:54
teleshoesdo you happen to know if its free software?22:55
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Elleonot sure, the standard version of stellarium is22:55
Elleobut I don't know what license the mobile version is under22:56
teleshoesim like TOTALLY thrilled22:56
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itsnotabigtruckugh, "free software"22:56
itsnotabigtruckhate that phrase because it's tinged with fsf religious nonsense22:57
teleshoesi mean can i get the source code, modify it, and sell it22:57
SpeedEvilIf it's GPL, yes22:58
jonnihe is also offers stellarium as free download and has released sourcecodes22:58
teleshoesthx jonni22:58
Elleoah, from the reviews it sounds like the n9 version is a straight install of the desktop version22:58
itsnotabigtruckanyway, yeah
Elleounlike the n900 version which had a better mobile ui22:58
itsnotabigtruckit looks like elemental is offering it for free as well as charging in the ovi store22:58
itsnotabigtruckand mind you i'm not against free software, just the term free software22:59
itsnotabigtruckbecause it implies caring more about the ideological aspects than the actual results23:00
teleshoesand youre against ideas?23:00
itsnotabigtruckthat isn't what ideology means :p23:00
teleshoesstill, theres nothing actually wrong with idealism, people just like to pretend that there is so they can live their lives comfortably23:01
itsnotabigtruckthe problem is that it often is directly at the cost of quality23:02
itsnotabigtruckpeople stop pushing to make OSS software better because it's good enough that it's released under some OSS license23:02
teleshoesbecause money can make nice things23:02
itsnotabigtrucknever mind that it might be a garbage program23:02
teleshoesi dont really see that happening too often23:02
itsnotabigtruckmeanwhile, commercial software usually isn't "free" but it often is better23:02
itsnotabigtruckwell, sometimes23:02
itsnotabigtruckoften it's not :p23:02
teleshoesi mean; firefox, chromium,
itsnotabigtruckand at the same time, the ideologues don't focus on the practical benefits of open source23:03
itsnotabigtrucklike the ability to customize23:03
itsnotabigtruckbut then at the same time, some technically "free software" is limited in that too23:03
teleshoesyea, foss != good23:03
itsnotabigtrucklike you mention firefox, but your ability to customize firefox is limited by mozilla and their lawyers23:03
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teleshoesthats an interesting claim23:03
itsnotabigtrucki mean, you can customize it but you have to change the name and logo23:03
teleshoesthats cool23:03
teleshoesone wouldnt want to pollute the namespace23:04
teleshoesfirefox should mean exactly one thing23:04
itsnotabigtruckwell, no, not really, if i'm running firefox i want it to say firefox23:04
teleshoeswell, you can call it that if you like23:04
itsnotabigtruckthat sort of nonsense is why firefox is now called "iceweasel" on debian23:04
itsnotabigtrucki definitely don't want to run /that/23:04
teleshoesjust as long as you dont distribute it23:04
teleshoestrademark is NICE23:04
teleshoesits to protect consumers23:04
itsnotabigtruckthat renders it moot, because i also don't want to have to hack every build of firefox i get to have a different name and logo23:04
itsnotabigtruckno, it's not, it's because mozilla is less of an open source project and more of a corporation23:05
itsnotabigtrucka corporation that makes serious money and seriously pushes people around23:05
teleshoesits a23:05
teleshoesthat seriously pushes people around23:05
itsnotabigtruckit's also why it's a complete waste to contribute to mozilla, because they're generally averse to outside contributions, and they have paid employees23:05
itsnotabigtruckwell, actually, no...23:05
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itsnotabigtruckthey're a non-profit which owns a for profit corporation23:05
itsnotabigtruckwhich is kind of a legal loophole23:05
itsnotabigtruckit used to be a non-profit entirely but they restructured23:06
teleshoes   Net income $43.1 million (2009)23:06
itsnotabigtruckand they have full time lawyers, a large staff, trademarks, and massive amounts of moolah coming in from google23:06
itsnotabigtruckas opposed to some volunteer labor of love or something23:06
itsnotabigtrucklike they'd like to make themselves out to be23:06
teleshoesno one says free software cant be lucrative, tho23:07
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teleshoesit doesnt make them bad to make as much money as they can, as long as they dont do terrible things23:07
teleshoesi dont know the terrible things they do, and you seem to, tho23:07
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teleshoesgenerally speaking, software that is open source tends to be better and make people more money23:08
itsnotabigtruckwell, it's not like they're doing terrible things23:08
itsnotabigtruckthey're just doing things that are kind of unbecoming for what's supposed to be some sort of community project23:08
itsnotabigtruckthey're more like a corporate project that happens to release the source23:08
itsnotabigtruckso, it's not like they're evil, but they aren't a good example of open source gone right23:08
teleshoesmm, so the terrible things they do is to mistreat the mozilla community23:08
teleshoesi think they ARE23:09
teleshoesan example of os gone right23:09
teleshoesbut theyre not about free software23:09
itsnotabigtruckmozilla is about as open is chrome is23:09
teleshoesyea, completely open source,23:10
itsnotabigtruckbut google doesn't operate under some pretense of being some kind of charity23:10
teleshoesbut restrictive of certain freedoms23:10
teleshoesyea that is fucked up, i wasnt aware that they made massive profits23:10
teleshoesi thought they made modest profit, paid their employees, and funneled the profits into the project23:10
itsnotabigtrucki mean, i'm definitely a bit bitter, esp from all the major bugs that have been ignored for a really long time23:10
itsnotabigtruckincluding the ones work working patches attached23:10
itsnotabigtruckthey generally don't pay attention to things that aren't release priorities, and their release priorities don't include fixing things23:11
itsnotabigtruck*the ones that have working23:11
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itsnotabigtruckalso, well, i don't know exactly what they do with the money23:12
itsnotabigtruckthey have a lot of staff23:12
itsnotabigtruckand that isn't cheap23:12
itsnotabigtruckso paid their employees = probably eats up a lot of the money they get23:12
itsnotabigtruckdonating to them doesn't make sense though as long as they get significant google money23:13
itsnotabigtruckit's also kinda funny how google funds their browser competitor23:13
teleshoesthat is weird23:14
itsnotabigtruckthough from google's pov having multiple popular alternatives to msie only makes things better for them23:14
itsnotabigtruckbecause they don't profit off chrome, they profit off people using their ad-supported services23:14
itsnotabigtruckand they want people to have a good experience with those so they keep using them23:14
itsnotabigtruckthat, and they're paying firefox for the search traffic it turns in from its default configuration23:15
itsnotabigtruck*paying mozilla23:15
teleshoesoh god23:15
teleshoesthats pretty evil23:15
itsnotabigtruckwell, not really...i mean, this arrangement has worked out pretty well for funding firefox23:15
teleshoesso i just looked into this23:16
itsnotabigtruckit's just that because of all that i don't really feel like mozilla is really a charitable entity at all23:16
teleshoesnon-profits can only use profits from wholly owned subsidiaries in their non-profits23:16
teleshoesso we DO know what theyre doing with the money-23:16
teleshoesmaking ff better23:16
teleshoesdoesnt sound like there is a loophole, after all23:17
itsnotabigtruckwell, a good chunk of it is probably getting paid out to their board and stuff23:17
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teleshoesyea, employees gotta eat23:17
itsnotabigtrucklike apparently in 2007 according to wikipedia the chairwoman of mozilla foundation got $500k total compensation23:18
teleshoesits hard work to run mozilla23:18
teleshoeswithout the finest brandy on hand at all times23:18
itsnotabigtruckwhich as executives go isn't crazy high, but it's a pretty significant fraction of that $40mil if you multiply that out a few times for the other hgih ranking execs23:19
teleshoes500K is outlandish, sure23:19
teleshoesbut its within the realm of normal greed23:19
aquariusCan I see the stuff in scratchbox /targets from outside scratchbox?23:19
aquariusaha, there are two levels of userness in /scratchbox23:20
aquariusgot it :)23:20
teleshoesso mozilla spends most of their cash on porsches, etc23:20
itsnotabigtruckanyway, presumably the bulk of the money goes into labor costs etc., but that's just like a normal corporation23:23
itsnotabigtruckthat's the thing23:23
itsnotabigtruckat least a privately held one23:24
teleshoesim perfectly ok with for-profit companies23:24
teleshoesmaking open source software23:24
itsnotabigtruckwell, except that they can't dividend out money to the owners, but they can pay the execs high salaries so that ends up being the same thing23:24
teleshoesyea, whether its a for-profit vs a not-for-profit doing it isnt too important23:25
teleshoesall the best software is opensource23:26
aquariusblimey, almost done with this. Pleased. :)23:39
aquariuswell, apart from the accounts stuff ;)23:39
teleshoesstellarium doesnt seem to support the compass23:40
aquariusif I add a header to a QML ListView, and my ListView takes up the whole screen, how do I make the header take up the whole screen as well rather than be a rectangular box *inside* the listview?23:40
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Elleoaquarius: err, can you rephrase that?23:44
Elleodo you want the header to always be visible at the top?23:44
aquariusthat's what I want23:44
Elleoright, then you don't want it to be a list view header23:44
aquariuswhich is not what listview.header does, it turns out :)23:44
Elleojust make it a separate item, and anchor the listview to its bottom23:44
Elleoor possibly just stick them both inside a column23:45
aquariusyeah, that's what I'm doing, now :)23:45
aquariusalthough that doesn't seem to work right; the listview scrolls in front of iot23:47
aquariusQML is basically this: Rectangle {id: headerbar; width: rootWindow.width; height: rootWindow.height / 10 } { ListView: headerbar.bottom; ... }23:48
aquariuswhich doesn't seem to do what I think it ought to do.23:48
aquariusI can (and have) cheated by setting z on the headerbar so that it's above the listview, but that seems a bit cheaty :)23:51
Elleooh yeah, I seem to remember having an issue like that23:51
Elleoand basically cheating in exactly the same way as you23:51
aquariusalso, having a separate problem23:51
Elleothe list view starts at the right height, but when scrolled allows its contents to go above its region23:51
aquariusif I put the headerbar inside my Page, then it's affected by the page margins -- so the headerbar doesn't go all the way to the edge of the screen23:52
Elleoyou could just not set margins on the page23:53
Elleothen set margins on something inside it instead23:53
aquariusif I put the headerbar outside the page (that is: inside the PageStackWindow at the top level) then the headerbar fills the screen right up to the edges, including over the top of the two nice little rounded-corner curves you get at the top of the screen below the notification bar23:53
aquariusis that just tough? :)23:53
aquariusI don't really understand where the curves come from.23:53
Elleoso page with no margins, containing a the header followed by another container with margins23:53
Elleowell if you do want to keep it out of the page you can round the rectangle yourself via the radius property23:54
Elleoalthough that'll round the bottom corners too23:54
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aquariusfor the moment, I've just merrily stomped on the rounded corners23:58
aquariusI'll come back to it :)23:58

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